The Rich Roll Podcast - Crush It As A Plant-Based Athlete: Matt Frazier & Robert Cheeke

Episode Date: June 14, 2021

How can you possibly excel as an athlete on a plant-based diet? Where do you get your protein? Don’t you need meat to be fit? If you’re a long-time whole food, plant-based enthusiast, chances are you’ve been asked these questions more times than you can count. For the rest of you, let’s put these questions to the test. My comrades for this inquiry are friends Matt Frazier & Robert Cheeke, here to testify on how to absolutely kick ass and take names as a plant-based athlete. The occasion for this conversation is the publication of Matt & Robert’s aptly titled new book, The Plant-Based Athlete—the ultimate primer on maxing peak performance the plant-based way, a drum you I’ve been beating for years. Long-time listeners will remember Matt from from RRP 54 in the early days of the podcast. A plant-based marathoner and ultrarunner, he’s the man behind everything NoMeatAthlete.com—the wildly popular community, blog, books, and podcast. Making his first and long overdue appearance on the show, Robert is a former champion vegan bodybuilder, public speaker, founder of Vegan Bodybuilding & Fitness, and a solid dude who’s been crushing it on nothing but plants for more than 25 years. Today, Matt and Robert bust myths and break down the basics of plant-based performance. We talk about optimizing athleticism from strength training to endurance. We discuss proper fueling and recovery techniques. We get into responsible supplementation, balancing macros, enhancing micronutrient intake, and the importance diversifying your microbiome. Plus, we dive into the latest science and research behind why plants reign supreme when it comes to peak gains. Of course, we also bust some common myths, including the big one: where do you get your protein? Whether you’re seeking to break a strength plateau, hit a PR, compete in your first ultra event, or simply lose a few, shape up and feel better—this is the intensive, in-depth, masterclass on plant-based performance you’ve been waiting for. And it might just change your life. FULL BLOG & SHOW NOTES: bit.ly/richroll608 YouTube: bit.ly/frazierandcheeke608 It was a blast hosting these awesome humans and long-time friends. I sincerely hope you enjoy the exchange. Peace + Plants, Rich

When you read the stories, one of the things you'll notice is that what brought people to a plant-based diet in the first place? For many people, it's inflammation. It's pain that they feel even as a young person. Like take David Carter, NFL lineman, I mean a completely star athlete in his 20s, and he can barely push himself out of a bathtub because his joints hurt so badly. This is a guy who's supposed to be in his prime. He's playing in the NFL. And then when he went to a plant-based diet, not only did he drop weight, which helped him get rid of some body fat, and then which he later added the weight back on

with more muscle, he got faster, he got stronger, but the pain went away. I mean, the pain just went away. And his career lasted slightly longer than the average NFL career. And he's been, you know, in incredible shape since then too. I've seen him in his retirement and he looks fantastic. And when you look across the board, men or women, doesn't matter the sport, so many people came to this lifestyle to reduce inflammation, improve recovery, and have better results. And that's what they did. And it's so fun to tell those stories. It's like, everyone always asks what the mechanism is. They're like, well, why does a plant-based diet supposedly so much better for sports? If you're claiming that it is, it seems like you

stopped getting injured. And Brendan Brazier back in the early 2000s was saying that when he experimented with a bunch of diets back in high school, he found that this was the one that let him recover fastest and get back so he could get in, you know, whatever, 10 workouts in a week when the competition could only get six or something like that. And so I think that's a huge part of the story behind why a plant-based diet seems to be so good for sports is that the anti-inflammatory compounds that are just naturally part of it without even trying, much less if you actually do try and seek out the foods that would maximize that, just allows you to get back out there faster and be back out there 100% or very close to it rather than every time you come out, you're a little

bit worse so that eventually an injury follows. That's Robert Cheek and Matt Fraser, and this is The Rich Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast. Welcome to the podcast. Gird your loins, people, because today, today, we're diving into how to absolutely kick ass and take names as a plant-based athlete. From strength to endurance, fueling to recovery, macronutrients to micronutrients, we bust some common myths, we address some typical questions,

including, of course, the big one, where do you get your protein? My guests for this expedition are my friends, Matt Frazier and Robert Cheek. Together, they have co-authored this fantastic new book, "'The Plant-Based Athlete," which is essentially the ultimate guide to maxing out peak performance the plant-based way, which is a drum.

I think you guys know I've been beating for many a year. If you're a day one fan, then you remember Matt from way back, episode 54, he was on the show. Matt is a plant-based marathoner, ultra runner, and the man behind the nomeatathlete.com community, books, and the man behind the nomeatathlete.com community, books, and podcast. Making his first but long overdue appearance on the show,

Robert is a former champion vegan bodybuilder, public speaker, founder of vegan bodybuilding and fitness, and just basically a solid dude who's been crushing it on nothing but plants for more than 25 years. A few more things to add before we dive in, but first. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good

in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because, unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem. A problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to guide, support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs. They've partnered with the best global behavioral health

providers to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their Thank you. I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. Okay. So today we're going to break down a few basics of plant-based performance. We talk about optimizing your nutrition to meet your custom fitness goals, be they strength, speed, or endurance related. We talk about the latest nutrition research, why plants reign supreme when it comes to both peak gains and long-term health. We address a few common nutrition misconceptions,

and we also discuss the growth of the plant-based athlete movement overall. Whether you're seeking to build muscle mass, hit your 5K PR, or compete in your first ultra event, or if you're just the average Joe or Jane looking to shape up and feel better, I really think this one is for you. Robert and Matt are awesome humans. They're longtime friends. They wrote a great book. You should all pick up, Stat. And this one is both fun and quite instructive. So let's do the thing.

This is me, Matt Frazier and Robert Cheek. He's like ready to pounce. Are we rolling? We're good. The OG plant-based crew is in the house. Good to see you guys. Thanks for having us, Rich. Yeah, you too, Rich.

It's good to be reconnected with both of you. It's been a little while and all of us go back pretty far. Yeah, at least a decade or so. I know, I'm trying to remember the first time that I met each of you guys. I'm sure it was at some VegFest related event, perhaps a decade or so ago. I remember Matt, the first time you did the podcast,

we were in DC. That's right, at the DC VegFest. Right in a hotel Matt, the first time you did the podcast, we were in DC. That's right, at the DC VegFest. Right in a hotel room, like at the DC VegFest, which I think Robert, you mentioned that you first met Matt in DC also, was that at the same event? I was speaking at the DC VegFest. It was a year or two before that.

Oh, it was. Yeah. But you guys go way back as well, so. We do. I've been just wrapping my head around having you guys back on has taken me down a little bit of a memory lane, you know? And I was just remembering the early days.

I mean, Robert, you've been doing this for 25 years. You've been doing it for Matt for 12 at this point. I'm at 15 and I was just remembering in the early days, like thinking about who the mentors were, what the landscape looked like, where the resources could be found. And it was basically Brendan Brazier's book, Thrive. It was his Vega products that I had to drive all the way

to Air One in the middle of LA. There was one store in all of Los Angeles that sold it. And I would drive all the way across town, like an hour and a half to get it. And then shortly thereafter, Matt, you launched your blog, KnowMeToAthlete. How long ago was that? When did that first?

That was 2009. 2009, right. And Robert, you had veganbodybuilding.com. Yeah, we went live February, 2003. Wow. But I was making t-shirts back in 2002. Yeah, you're the original DIY vegan plant-based athlete dude

who's been banging the drum for longer than most. Man, it's been such a DIY thing. Doing things I didn't know what I was doing, making t-shirts, self-publishing books. I was just telling Matt on the way here, I put myself on a college campus speaking tour and was just trying to find my way around to buildings to get to the right place.

Sometimes speaking in front of five people that I would spend $700 out of pocket to be there. You're the guy who had, come out to the parking lot and let me pop the trunk open. I got all kinds of swag for you. I was, I was. Hold on, okay. Rip Esselstyn had me speak

at the Whole Foods Market World headquarters in 2010, I believe, my book had just come out. And I was, yeah, I was traveling in my Prius and just sleeping in my car, unless I had a friend to crash with. And that's what I was trying to do, just to get off the ground. Right, well, a lot has changed.

A lot has changed. We're in a very different moment. And I suspect both of you are gratified by the cultural tilt in the direction of things that you guys care about and have been talking about for a long time. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's so, so different to be plant-based athlete

these days than, you know, even five or 10 years ago, just so different. I mean, in many good ways, it's also a lot easier to get the junk food. It's not, doesn't mean quite the same thing to be vegan anymore. But I mean, yeah, it's reaching so many more people. Yeah, it's crazy.

We're very grateful. And that's the right word, Rich, is grateful. You know, we have that, that gratitude. I mean, we were believing in something a long time ago, hoping that it would take off, hoping that it would strike a chord with people, hoping people would embrace it. And obviously people like you and others have given this a bigger platform. Yeah. It's amazing. Well, I want this to be

really instructive for the audience with a lot of, you know, kind of tactics and strategies that will be helpful to people that are all lifted from your amazing new book, which we're gonna get into. But I think it would be good to just introduce yourselves a little bit. I wanna spend a couple minutes on each of your respective backgrounds, because I think that helps contextualize everything that we're gonna talk about.

So Robert, we can start with you. I mean, I know you grew up on basically a farm in Oregon, right? And at a very early age made this shift. Yeah, I grew up on a farm in Western Oregon, Corvallis, Oregon State University town. My father was a professor at Oregon State University. That's where I met my mother.

He taught animal agriculture, right? Animal science. He actually is, or was at the time, he's retired now, but is a world expert on raising animals for food. So when I was a young kid, he traveled to every continent except for Antarctica. He wrote 15 textbooks for college students about raising animals, particularly raising rabbits. And so he would travel around-

Raising rabbits for food? Yeah, yeah. So he would go around to different countries around the world teaching various students or cultures about the efficiency of raising rabbit meat. So he even won a rabbit Oscar in the eighties, I think as a rabbit, top rabbit researcher in the world and wrote a bunch of textbooks. And that's the background that I came from. I used to raise rabbits and I would

show them in the 4-H county fair and sell them at the auction. And I did that with dairy cows, with chickens. And I came from this farming background. And not only that, but that animal science background where both of my parents were animal scientists and were very concerned that in 1995, when I became vegan, really out of respect for my older sister who was organizing an animal rights week at our high school that I wasn't gonna get enough proper nutrition. I mean, this was before, slightly before the internet,

1995, or at least before the public internet. There was a lot of fear that you're just't gonna get enough proper nutrition. I mean, this was before, slightly before the internet, 1995, or at least before the public internet, there was a lot of fear that you're just not gonna get enough protein and you're gonna be malnourished. And on top of that, I think you know part of my story, when I was in eighth grade, I weighed 89 pounds. I was up to the massive 120 by the time I was a sophomore in high school and became vegan. I was a small guy.

Right. I was an endurance athlete. Well, let's hold on. I wanna back up a little bit. So do you have other siblings besides your sister? Yeah. You do. Yeah, so my older sister, Tanya,

became vegan vegetarian at a young age. Maybe she was eight or 10 or something. And then my younger brother, Ryan, was always the cowboy guy, always the farmer. I mean, driving the big truck, gun rack on his pickup truck, bumper sticker is like, enjoy a juicy steak tonight. You know, cowboys do it in eight seconds, all this stuff.

And then my younger brother, my youngest brother, Clark, who was 11 at the time, became vegetarian when I became vegan in December of 95. Three of the kids in your family go vegetarian vegan. This is a classic like teenage, you know, rebellion against the ideals of the parents. I mean, your parents must have lost their minds. Everybody lost their minds.

Can you imagine the holidays? And my sister was especially outspoken. We would go to protests. We were involved in animal rights. Right, like Food Not Bombs. Exactly, we ran Food Not Bombs. We ran Food Not Bombs in Corvallis. I was making soup for people in need

or anyone who was hungry and serving it in Central Park in my town for years. So rejecting the rabbit stew at dinner. Yeah, yeah, but also being 15 and not knowing exactly what to eat and not having these resources like you mentioned, Brennan Brazier and others, they weren't there.

John Robbins had a book. There are a few other resources. Howard Lyman was big back then, but as an athlete- Peter Singer. Yeah, but as an athlete, it was, man. Nothing. What do I do? And I was a five sport athlete in high school and had aspirations of doing something well after that.

Right, so it's basically a lot of tofu sandwiches. A lot of tofu. I even tried to get sponsored by a tofu company back before I, I collected every package and save them in my closet, which I know it sounds weird, but every package of like tofu hot dogs and bologna and all that from Eve's veggie cuisine, I saved hundreds of packages and took photos

and try to get sponsored, it never worked out. And you started as a runner and then didn't get into, did you run at OSU? One year, yeah, at Oregon State University. It was a running club, not to be confused with the University of Oregon for people listening, the mega, you know, successful athletic program,

but we had a running club back then. Now it's a full on track and cross country team, but back in the 90s, 98 or 99, I ran there. So when did the bodybuilding thing kick off for you? Right after that, late 99, I bumped into an old childhood friend, Jordan Baskerville, who is still one of my absolute best friends today. And he introduced me to the sport of bodybuilding,

a sport I didn't know about. In fact, I was kind of grossed out by those magazines that I would see at the grocery store with all the veins and muscles on the cover. But he showed me those magazines. And at this point I was ready to be bigger and stronger, something I had never been and wanted to be like Captain Planet,

wanted to be a key man, wanted to be a pro wrestler. And so I embraced it. And then I did the Body for Life program in 2000 and it took off from there. Right, so 2000, basically like from 2000 through around 2009, you got into competition, 2006, 2009, those were kind of big years for you in terms of distinguishing yourself and winning.

You won a competition, you won like the, what is it? The USA Natural Bodybuilding Competition. Yeah, there's all these federations. This is the INBA, International Natural Bodybuilding Association. Yeah, it's not one thing. Yeah, there's a bunch of federations, but yeah, I won the,

I think it's the INBA Northwestern USA natural bodybuilding championships in my category. And there's lots of different categories too, right? And so, but that gave me something to talk about. Because it wasn't just, I was always a bodybuilder. I was a small long distance runner and vegan on top of that. And then found some success in bodybuilding,

won a couple of competitions, runner up a number of times. And, you know, there was an interest then from magazines, newspapers, the internet. And I was able to build a culture around that. Right. And you've really stepped into this role of advocacy and kind of shouldered the responsibility

of trying to communicate this, you know, what in your case and all of our cases together here collectively has been a transformative lifestyle experience. Yeah, and it's something I always wanted. I always, when I decided that on that December 8th day in 95, I thought, man, if I could get bigger and stronger

without any animal protein, that could inspire other people to believe in themselves that they could do it too. And there were other high school classmates that did it. People on my track team, people on my soccer team, they did it, both men and women. They embraced it, at least for a period of time. And we had something building there.

And then it just continued to pick up where you'd meet someone else who was a plant-based athlete. We didn't call it plant-based back then, but another vegan athlete. You'd meet someone and it was like, okay, this is really starting to take off a little bit. Maybe there's something to this. There's something here.

Yeah, fast forward to Game Changers and everything that's unfolded in the wake of it. So it's cool. Matt, when I think of you, I think what's powerful about your story and your message, and obviously I wanna hear from you, is that you are a very kind of relatable person. You're somebody who's kind of a middle of the pack runner

who just went on his own journey of trying to optimize your own performance in your own way. I think when I first met you, you weren't even fully plant-based, you were vegetarian. I think. That's possible. Cause when I started, like there were fish recipes in the very early days of no meat athlete.

Cause I was like, fish doesn't really count as meat. I'll just call this no meat athlete. And I was thinking I might become vegetarian. Didn't know what vegan was, just thought. So I started with fish and it didn't even occur to me that like that might make some people really angry. Just, and I mean, now having done the internet for 12 years, like I know that it's crazy.

How dare you change your mind and evolve. Yeah, right, I know. But yeah, I was vegetarian for, I think, the first two years of doing my blog. And people like you, people like Brendan Brazier, people like Robert, just the exposure Brazier, people like Robert, just the exposure to these ideas, that's what moved me towards veganism.

And really it was the ethical side of it, but seeing you guys do it, that's amazing. And you started nomeatathlete.com in kind of the heyday of blogging, right? When blogging was like, that's where we were all going to various blogs to get our information. Still to this day, you've, you know,

continued to do this and grow this amazing community that you have. And I like how kind of authentic and transparent you are about this journey with respect to running and how you continue to kind of iterate and evolve and learn when it comes to nutrition. Yeah, I think that's, I think that is, you're right. That's what people have been attracted to about the site.

I was never an elite athlete by any means. In those early days, I was searching for help in qualifying for the Boston Marathon, which like, you know, when I started out, I would say I was middle of the pack. And that was like, for me, elite level accomplishment, which, you know, there's a lot, tons of people qualify for Boston,

but it took a ton of work for me to get there. And, uh, the last bit was when I did finally go vegetarian. It was like six months after that is when I finally qualified, even though I didn't go vegetarian for that. I mean, I was, I was going for ethical reasons. And then in my search on the internet thinking like, okay, if I really want to do this and that's why I was eating fish too, cause I was worried about protein, uh, you know, like what I need to be, make sure I'm eating right. And I, and I started looking around and I must've found Robert's site, but I didn't find anything for endurance athletes. I missed the whole Brendan Brazier stuff because he didn't have a blog or anything that was easily findable. So I said, well, man, there's, there's nothing here for, for people who want to be vegetarian athletes. So

I'll just start writing about what I'm doing. Not that I have any expertise. I'm just gonna share what's working and what isn't and how it's going. And that really has been what No Meat Athlete stayed. Like that's still what I do. Is just write about what I'm doing or what our team is doing.

Cause I'm a little bit less involved in the day to day writing. Yeah, now you have a huge team. I wouldn't say huge. I think we've got- I don't know, on the site there were like, it looked like there were like 12 people. Yeah, cause we launched a supplement company

called Compliment a few years after that. And that company has grown much faster than No Meat Athlete actually did in terms of hiring team members and all that. So we've got a bunch there. So your first stab at the Boston Marathon, you ran like 430 plus or something like that, right? I ran for my very first marathon.

I had no idea like that I had no business even thinking about qualifying for Boston, but I wrote that down as my target finish time on the application or whatever. I wrote down 310 and I finished in 453. So I was a hundred minutes too slow. Over an hour and a half to drop. There's a big improvement arc here to happen, but you switch up your diet.

I'm sure there were other factors. Oh, the diet was just the last bit. But then the next stab, you end up qualifying. I think you qualified by like one second. You just like got in under the nose. Did I read that right? The story has gotten better and better. It's one of those stories about the history.

This is apocryphal. Right. So it was six stabs later that I finally did it. I took off an hour the first time because I learned how to properly train and not get hurt. And then I learned how to actually, you know, run with efficient form. And then I learned how to actually run with efficient form. And then I learned about nutrition,

all these each kept getting better. I qualified, so 310 was the time that was in my head all those years. And I was big into visualization, goal setting. I wrote that down so many times in journals that I was gonna run a 310 marathon. And I ended up crossing the line in 309.59. So it sounds like I did it by one second and I did,

but it turns out that they give you a minute, they gave you then a minute grace period. So 3.10.59 would have done it. So I qualified by a minute. It's a better story though. So much better. And I like how you were mentored by Seth Godin on your blog, which is, that's rare error.

How did you make that happen? I mean, I was extremely lucky to get that. I just followed everything he did. I read every book he wrote and just loved what he was doing because he was doing marketing, but making it not feel sleazy. And honestly, that's when I went vegetarian,

like I was afraid of it being this cultish thing or people were always trying to convince you and trying to like make you feel wrong for not eating the way, not seeing things the way they did. And so I was terrified of that, of being that, portraying that. And so like that, when I did,

I said, I'm just gonna kind of be the most chill vegetarian I can be. I'm not gonna tell anyone they should do this. I'm just gonna say, hey, it's working for me. If you wanna try it, here are some tools. So Seth Godin has that exact same approach to me, to marketing, where it doesn't feel like you're being sold. It just feels like someone's a lot of fun to listen to and learn from. So I think my vibe very much resonated with

his and he announced that he was going to have 15 readers come spend a week in his office and work on projects. And I applied and I figured I'm not not actually gonna get this, but I did a little video and he had written the blurb from my first book. He'd written a nice little thing because I had heard he was mostly vegetarian or vegan or something back then. Yeah, and then somehow he picked me. That's great. Which is funny, cause he tells you,

it's always not about, it's about picking yourself. You don't wanna be picked, but I got picked. So what is that like when you're, did you go to his house? Yeah, I went to his office, which was really cool. The brain trust. Yeah, and in fact, your place here reminds me a lot of his office with the books all over the wall

and little trinkets and things. But yeah, I went to go to his house and he made pizza for, no, I forget. He had a pizza oven in the backyard that he showed us, but we had a little party and that was just, I mean, it was just surreal for me. It's cool. So both of you guys have written books before.

Robert, I think were all your books prior to this one self-published? Every single one. Out of the trunk of the car kind of thing? Every single one. I've written four before, I wrote four before this one. And Matt, you've got No Meat Athlete and the No Meat Athlete Cookbook.

But this is really this new book. I mean, you guys crushed it with this thing. There's so many things about this book that I love. And I think that are important and we're missing in the conversation around being plant-based and specifically how to be a plant-based athlete. Robert, I heard you talking the other day about something I think is very true,

which is that historically, most of the books about being plant-based as an athlete have been memoir style books like my book, right? They're kind of anecdotal first person accounts of a certain kind of transformation and those have their place. But the idea behind your book, which I think is fantastic,

is that you guys said, we wanna make basically the Bible, the manual for how to do this, irrespective of what your particular sport is. And we're gonna do that by laying out the latest science and telling the stories of tons of athletes, I think 25 athletes throughout the book and their various versions of how they make it work.

And I think together that coheres to create a really powerful volume that, you know, anybody who's flirting with the idea of stepping into this world is gonna find value in. Yeah, thanks Rich. And Matt jokes that it's kind of a grown up version of our other books. Like this is like the real deal.

You guys are adults now. We're adults now, we're in our 40s now. Robert's still getting used to not having to open up his trunk. I still do. You mean the publisher will send it directly to the person? Yeah, I mean, yeah, I rolled up here at your office with five books in the trunk, actually in the back seat.

So I wouldn't forget them. And yeah, I wasn't even sure the publisher sent you a copy. I'm used to doing this stuff myself. But what we wanted to do was make the how-to book. Like this is the how-to book for anybody to be a plant-based athlete. And we feature so many different men and women in the book.

Like you said, it's not just your way or Brennan Brazier's way or Scott Jurek's way or Matt's way or my way or Fiona's way. It's this culmination of all these different approaches that are really unique to the individuals. You know, there's not necessarily one size fits all, but the fact that there's very specific aspects that are similar, such as the omission of animal protein,

the inclusion of exclusively plant-based foods, and this unbelievable belief in self to achieve something. And that ties all of these people together. They may eat a bit differently. And how could you not? You talk about someone like Megan Duhamel, who's an Olympic gold medalist, plant-based figure skater. She's gonna eat a little bit differently

than David Carter, who was in the NFL as a lineman, a 300 pound lineman. And I think that needs to be shared. So we have all of these different athletes and Matt comes from an endurance background, of course, and I come from mostly the strength and bodybuilding background and that's where our respective audiences

kind of hang out in vegan bodybuilding and no meat athlete, but this encompasses everyone. And so there's a story for you to resonate with as a reader. And what was fun for me, and actually it's not just 25 stories. I personally interviewed about 60 people for the book and some just have quotes in there. Their stories didn't get developed as further,

but their quotes are in there and they're mentioned and they're referenced and they're world champions and Olympic medalists and the best in the world in some cases of what they do. And that is there as a source of inspiration that you can find someone to connect with. And it's interesting who we connect with. You know, I connect well with someone like Sonia Looney,

for example, world champion mountain biker. I've never been on a mountain bike before, but her just mental toughness, you know, intestinal fortitude, her grit, as she calls it, it speaks to me as someone who has been on the grind as well. Like we said, you know, going out of my car to try to make this dream happen.

It just speaks to me that today I'm gonna be the best version of myself. You know, she has that story. Right. And the stories of, you know, I'm in my 40s now. Your story, you know, Scott Jurek, John Joseph, Rip Esselstyn, Fiona Oakes, Christine Vardaros, those speak to me too.

These are individuals yourself included, who are in often cases reaching their athletic peak in their 40s or even in some cases, 50s. Rip just set a world record in 200 meter backstroke at what age 58, 59? Master's records. That's amazing. That gives me a lot of inspiration

as someone who retired from competitive bodybuilding at age 29 and has been, you know, training for the last 10 years. And I've been the biggest and strongest I've ever been at age 40, age 41, like, man, I still got a lot left. You know, that's what it tells me as a reader. In the course of speaking to these 60 odd athletes and hearing their stories

and creating these profiles for the book, I suspect you were exposed to a pretty wide variety of experiences, right? Obviously people are gonna eat differently depending upon their specialty, their habits are gonna be different, and I'm sure there's tons of consistencies, right? In the various approaches. Was there anything that surprised you?

Yes. I conducted the interview so I can speak to this. What really surprised me was that we have this day in the life section in the book. And the fact that some of the best athletes in the world include something like Ben and Jerry's ice cream into their diet. And that just really blew me away. You know, I was hanging out in the early days with Brendan Brazier who wanted to eat, you know, vegan ice cream. And it was all about every calorie has got to be aimed towards performance.

But to realize that some of the best athletes in the world, you know, let their hair down. They do things like they eat Beyond Burgers. They eat non-dairy ice cream. Like they, you know, I mean, Robbie Ballinger's tour was sponsored by Natamu. And his story of running across America is one of my favorites in the book

and one of my favorites to write. I just love that story. So that surprised me a little bit because I grew up in this, you know, is one of my favorites in the book and one of my favorites to write. I just love that story. So that surprised me a little bit because I grew up in this, I worked for Forks Over Knives and I took Dr. Campbell's plant-based nutrition course through Cornell and I hang out in the vegan cruise

where you and I did that speaking panel in the very early days to your podcast. Well, what happened there, we should just like, I wanted to highlight that. Like we took a stab at trying to do a podcast way back in the day when we were on that vegan cruise thing. And what happened is what has happened many, I don't know if you remember how frustrated I was.

I remember, cause I was sitting there by myself. Where is Rich? There's hundreds of people in the audience and just you and I on the speaking panel, just the two of us. Where is Rich? And you were trying to come with all your equipment to record it.

Basically what happens is whenever I have like a live, we were doing this kind of live Q and A panel type thing in front of a group of people. And I always go to the event organizer ahead of time and say, I wanna record this. This might be good for the podcast. And they're, oh, no problem. No, it's totally easy.

We'll just plug it into our soundboard. And I used to take people at face value and they'd tell me that, but I've learned that when they say that, they actually have no idea what they're talking about. And I have zero confidence it's gonna actually work. But in this case, they were like, no, no, no, we have it wired, we're gonna do that.

And we did the whole thing and like none of it recorded. Yeah, yeah, and it was a great conversation. I know it was like, I don't know, eight years ago, seven, long time ago. I think it was like, yeah, probably seven years ago. Yeah, it was a long time ago, but I remember, because that was actually like, that was a bit nerve wracking for me,

you were like really ascending as like one of the big plant-based athletes and just the two of us, there's nowhere to hide. And I felt like, man, I held my own out there. Like I felt good about that. Oh, come on. You've been doing this way longer than me. You know more about,

I'm here to learn from you guys today. Right, but that's how I felt. And it was an honor and it was fun. And I thought, wow, that's my early opportunity to be on the Rich Roll podcast. Seven years later, here we are. Yeah, here we are. We made it happen.

What was I asking you though? No, I lost my train of thought. We're talking about the similarities of the people interviewed. And so I came from that background of Forks Over Knives and T. Colin Campbell, who, you know, great role models for me, heroes of mine. It's such an honor to have endorsement for the book.

But I felt that level of perfection was necessary. And I lived that way. I mean, I wrote myself published book, shred it that way that it was no processed foods, no sports supplements, none of that. And what I found later was that I was trying so hard to please other people because their name was on the book or I viewed them as my heroes. And I wanted to live just the way that they described. But then now that I've been on this vegan cruise 10 years in a row, I would see people like Dr. T. Colin Campbell eating vegan pizza at midnight.

I'm like, oh, there's room for that. I didn't understand that because we always put our best knowledge forward, our best foot forward, our best information forward in written form and in videos and interviews. And sometimes that's a hard thing to maintain and a hard thing to achieve. So for me, telling these compelling stories,

it was really enlightening for me to see that people who are way better athletes than I've ever been in my life, allow downtime for some processed foods, what you call junk foods. Right, just not being wed to some super strict, unrealistic protocol that's just not gonna work over time. I mean, it's always been a thing for me

to figure out how to square that traditional T. Colin Campbell, Caldwell Esselstyn message of not only zero processed food, but very, very little fat. And I've just figured, you know, over the years of being an athlete that, you know, I need more fat in my diet in order to perform and recover and all of those things. And feeling myself guilty that I couldn't get completely on board with that strict protocol. Yeah. And I thought it was important that we shared that message in this book,

because some of my other books or other people's books in this space have been very specific about a program. You need to eat this certain way. And I realized you don't. And there's lots of different versions of a plant-based diet that work completely differently for the California state record holder in powerlifting.

Right, Nick Squires. Nick Squires is always on Twitter talking about how many Beyond Meat burgers he eats. And that guy's hilarious, by the way. The guy puts it away like crazy. Yeah. And listen, you got to follow that guy on Twitter. I mean, he's just hilarious. But in his weight class, he's the strongest person in the state of California, which has nearly 40 million people living here. And he's been plant-based and ethical vegan for a long time. And he's incredible.

And I think we have to recognize that. We have to recognize that there's so many different ways to do this. And by showing that day in the life routine from morning till night that so many athletes shared in the book, that was even a wake up call for me as someone who's been doing this for a quarter century. Like these are way better athletes than I've ever been. And they allow this kind of flexibility

that is important for all of us as readers to recognize that that's the truth. That's really, that's the reality. It goes back with Esselstyn and Campbell. It goes back to this fact that like, there just haven't been like, this movement is new enough still that there's still a relatively limited amount

of resources about it. Like it's growing so fast now, but over the past 15 years, it's been a handful of books that have really influenced things. So I think there's this sense that there is one, like whichever one you just read, that's the one way to do it.

So even with those guys who are Mount Olympus of this vegan plant-based movement. But are also focused on preventing heart attacks. Right. They're not focused on performance as an athlete. Right. And so their one way is, is their particular way of preventing long-term disease.

But there are even other ways of doing that. Like there are, you know, Joel Kahn, Michael Greger, they don't have quite the same approach as those guys do with the low fat. Or McDougal and Furman who were at odds in a lot of ways. But both produce great results. All the infighting. But I think that's at odds in a lot of ways. So both produce great results. All the infighting. But I think that's-

A lot of infighting. As the movement grows as does that. But I think, I mean, all those, everybody has contributed to this movement, but I think the idea that this one way is the right way to do this. I think that's a disservice because it makes it seem like this diet must be hard.

You must have to be really careful if you're gonna be plant-based. You have to be this specific and do these specific things. What the number of athlete accounts in this book show is that like, that's not really true. There are so many ways to do this because it's a versatile diet. Like it's not something that you have to exactly get right.

There are a few little nutrients you need to probably need to make sure you get, but you don't need to be more careful doing this than you do if you eat McDonald's all the time. I mean, I'd be more careful on a diet that involves lots of that food than one like ours. Right, so why don't we walk through, you know, in practical terms,

how one who is, you know, thinking about perhaps jumping into this, how one would do it. When we talk about being plant-based or vegan, by definition, all that says is that we're not eating animal products. And it says nothing about what we are eating. And bearing in mind that this can look different ways for different individuals,

like how do you speak to that person who's tuning in right now, who's just saying, tell me how to do it, or is under the impression that it is unbelievably restrictive and it's gonna require all this time and this prep, like we can do a little bit of myth busting along the way. Yeah, I think it's important to acknowledge

what your favorite plant-based foods are to begin with. You know, what are your five favorite fruits, vegetables, legumes, grains, nuts and seeds. I mean, start there really. It's a question worth answering, I think for each person, because then you'll recognize, oh yeah, I really do like all these burrito bowls and tacos and these different types of international cuisines

that are largely rice, vegetables, tofu, curries, whatever the case is. And realize, oh yeah, I like all these different summer fruits and I like potatoes and I like rice and I like all these things that are staples in a healthy plant-based diet that you're eating all the time

without necessarily recognizing it. Or taste almost exactly the same if you just pull the beef broth out of it or the meat component of it. Yeah, yeah, and also recognize that a lot of people who do eat animals tend to eat like the same four of them all the time. You know, they eat cows, chickens, pigs, and what fish, I guess, maybe, or turkey. There's not a lot of variety there. The variety is often the broccoli,

the green beans, the cauliflower, the beans, the wild rice, the, you know, the salad greens, the seasonings, the herbs and spices, the condiments that are all plant-based. And so just find those staple foods that you really do enjoy. It doesn't mean you have to eat tofu all day long. It doesn't mean you have to eat a certain thing. Like, so what do you have for breakfast?

Maybe oatmeal or cereal, easy plant-based, right? And then add a little to it, put some berries on there, put some walnuts on there, get those omega-3 essential fats, get the antioxidants from the dark pigment fruits, add more calories to it, more oomph, more power for the day, or your green smoothie, just do it without any whey protein

or casein protein or dairy, non-dairy yogurts, or like I said, cereals or fruit platters, like there's breakfast. And then explore foods like potatoes and yams and sweet potatoes and lentils and beans and rice and some of these heavy 500 calorie per pound, more calorie dense legumes and grains and root vegetables for lunch

or things that you already eat. Sandwiches, wraps, burgers, find a plant-based version. They're everywhere in anywhere America now. So it's making those changes that you don't feel any deprivation or you don't feel like it's a chore or a hassle. It's like, these are the foods I already like. I'm just having a plant-based burger now

or plant-based pizza. Matt and I had pizza last night, you know, when we rolled into town and these are available now for people. So I think it's finding the foods that you already like. And then I think there's a necessary understanding of calorie density and nutrient density, at least as far as getting the most mileage

from your plant-based diet. Yeah, because that's one of the things that I hear often, I'm sure you do as well. Like I tried this, but I was hungry all the time. I'm like, you're not eating enough. Or it's frequently enough in many cases. Well, can I tell you a scenario? Sure.

So this is- This is what you're here to do, Robert. Tell me the scenario. So this is so common. I've watched this over the last 25 years and people often come to me in conversation or email with this topic. So let's say you're a male athlete

because I interact with a lot of them through the bodybuilding sphere. So they're consuming, let's say 3000 calories on an omnivorous diet, right? Then they switch to an all plant-based diet. And now they're down to maybe consuming 2000 calories or 2200 calories. And they're like, man, I've lost some, you know, I've lost some weight. My energy's gone down, I'm not as strong. And so, I mean, you just cut out a third of your calorie intake without being aware of it, you know, until now, until once we evaluate it.

And this happens all the time because the calorie density of meat and animal protein is so high. Right. And it also comes packaged oftentimes with lots of oil and other cheese or dairy products or sour cream or whatever, eggs where you're getting a much higher calorie intake.

And so if you're a football player, a bodybuilder, a weightlifter, basketball player, really active in any kind of sport and you significantly reduce your calorie intake because you're eating salads and fruits and vegetables, and you're just omitting animal protein without an awareness of calorie density, of course you're gonna have lower energy.

That's, I mean, energy is from our calorie intake. Of course you're gonna lose some weight because you can't mathematically maintain that mass in a calorie deficit reduction. And that happens all the time. Yeah, the thing is, is that you don't realize that you're running a caloric deficit compared to the way that you used to be eating.

Because if you amp up the fiber in your diet, you get full, you'll feel full. And the volume is high. And so you think that you're eating as much as you were before, when in fact you're eating quite a bit less. That's why I said frequently, because you think you're gonna try to eat a whole lot

at a meal to make up for the fact that your food doesn't have as many calories, but you can't, you get full and you feel like you've eaten just as much. So the trick for me when I'm trying to put weight on or keep weight on is just eat more often, just as much as I can, not at any one meal, but just throughout the day. Let's talk a little bit about the why,

like why we probably should have started with this. Like, why is this something that people should be thinking about? Like, why is this a better way to go? Weren't we born and bred to be omnivores? What's so terrible about eating a moderate and healthy omnivorous diet? Yeah, I think, I mean, a number of things problematic

with that. One is that that's a diet lifestyle that contributes to higher cases of mortality across the board. A plant-based diet is, as Gregor says, it should be the default diet until proven otherwise because it can reduce the risk of all cause mortality. For me, it's, you know, I got into this having, literally having dairy cows as friends, as pets. Why do so many people in the plant-based movement are people who grew up on farms, like Dr. Clapper? Well, there's something to that because you look at animals differently. Like how you would treat your dogs,

we just extend that to chickens. Because think about this, Rich. I mean, I grew up on a farm where you raise animals from when they're babies. And if they're taken from their mothers, who is their new best friend? It's you. I used to bottle feed baby calves

before getting on the school bus. You know, like I used to hang out with little baby chicks and like, you know, play a little elevator game with my hand. Like they trust you. Like you are their, you know, their person. Just like for your dog, like they trust you. Like you are their, you know, their person, just like for your dog, like you are that person. So I think I just, for me, I just looked at animals differently. And that was something that even if I thought I might have diminished returns on athletic success,

adopting this lifestyle, I was willing to do it because it just spoke to me. And that's what's compelled me all these years later for 25 years. And luckily it didn't have a hindrance. It didn't have any adverse effects on my athletic performance. In fact, maybe it helped it. But that's certainly one of the reasons is allowing animals to live lives

free of fear, pain, and suffering. And I think that's valid. I think that's worth considering. We can talk about all the environmental factors and I don't even know a lot of those nuances. I'm not a scientist. I don't understand all the greenhouse gas stuff. I see the quotes and how many gallons of water

used to produce, to raise animals and all of that. And of course it's important to me, but I can't really speak to that necessarily. I can speak to my cause or my why. And I can speak to the fact that so many people, even if it's anecdotal, the stuff that I've seen for 25 years, people who are able to overcome obesity,

overcome illnesses, become the best versions of themselves, feel better than they've ever felt in their lives because of a plant-based diet. And I've also seen how people, including my family, because both sides of my family come from farming backgrounds, both parents. So my aunts and uncles, they're all farmers.

They still own lots of acres and they farm. And they have health problems that those like Clapper and others who are the same age bracket or older don't have. And again, these are just examples, but they're close to home. I lost multiple relatives recently to diet related diseases.

And that does hit close to home. And I know that a plant-based diet can help with that because of Forks Over Knives and Campbell and Esselstyn and Barnard and Clapper and all those Ornish, the legends in this game. And I think for people listening, it's worth giving it a shot because the fear of, for me at least,

and I know you've experienced a little bit of this in part of your journey, the fear of something like a heart attack or a diet-related disease that sneaks up on me is, you know, that's kind of scary to me. And if I can reduce the risk of that and live a long, healthy life, that's worth it for me. And still kill it in the weight room. Yeah. Like the idea

that you're not, you don't have to compromise that, right? Yeah, and I think that's kind of what this book has shown more than like this is the trick to becoming a great athlete. Like that's not really what this is about. It turns out that it is that for the right person. And there are lots of people who, including all of us, I think who kind of experienced our, our, the most success we had athletically once we went plant-based. Uh, but for me, it's more that like, you can do this and you can get all these great benefits of the longevity really and health span. Uh, to me,

that's what it's all about. I mean, I just think, you know, you mentioned like the omnivorous diet, like what's wrong with this? This is natural, but natural doesn't really affect, it doesn't really get into health, right? Nature selects for reaching reproductive age at a few years past to raise your kids, but it's not really about what gets you to 80, 90

and keep moving and being healthy because that doesn't matter for natural selection. So to me, that's like where we should think about, like not like what is, and I don't honestly know what is the most natural diet or whatever that even means. But what's one is the data saying is keeping people, giving them the longest health span,

keeping them mobile and happy and active and healthy and alive. And it looks a lot to me like that's the plant-based diet. That seems to be where the science is all pointing these days. Right. Your on-ramp Robert was ethics. Matt, yours was more health related.

Mine was vanity. Vanity in health and athletic performance ultimately. Mine was vanity, vanity and health and athletic performance ultimately. But what's so amazing and beautiful about how this movement has blossomed is that now there are all these on-ramps from the ethical considerations, of course, to sustainability, to climate change concerns,

environmentally sensitive, which we all should be, of course, and the longevity health considerations of the foods that we eat. And now with this book, Plant-Based Athletic Performance. And I think it's so great because just like all the athletes profiled in your book,

different people connect with and resonate with different individuals, right? So not everybody is gonna cotton on to the ethical argument, but perhaps they're concerned about the environment. And the way that I look at it as, I look at it as this umbrella lifestyle that checks every single box. Like you can opt out of the chronic lifestyle illnesses

that are unnecessarily killing millions of people. Obesity rates right now are through the roof, diabetes is predicted something like 50% of Americans are gonna be diabetic by 2030. All of these chronic illnesses are lifestyle illnesses directly correlated to the foods that we're eating. Meanwhile, we're decimating the planet because animal agriculture just requires too many inputs,

too much land, too many resources for us to sustainably produce enough animal products for the planet to eat as we, you know, careen down this path towards 10 billion people living on this planet. But the fact that, you know, the truth is most people are walking around thinking about themselves.

They're like, that's fine. But like, I just wanna be buffed and I wanna eat what I wanna eat. And I wanna be able to kill it in the gym or qualify for Boston or whatever it is. And the truth is, is that all of those goals are not just possible, but more possible by dint of learning what you guys have laid out

in this book. When you read the stories, one of the things you'll notice is that what brought people to a plant-based diet in the first place? For many people, it's inflammation. It's pain that they feel even as a young person. Like take David Carter, NFL lineman, I mean, a completely star athlete in his 20s,

and he can barely push himself out of a bathtub because his joints hurt so badly. This is a guy who's supposed to be in his prime. He's playing in the NFL. And then when he went to a plant-based diet, not only did he drop weight, which helped him get rid of some body fat, which he later added the weight back on with more muscle,

he got faster, he got stronger, but the pain went away. I mean, the pain just went away. And his career lasted slightly longer than the pain went away. I mean, the pain just went away. And his career lasted slightly longer than the average NFL career. And he's been in incredible shape since then too. I've seen him in his retirement and he looks fantastic. And you look at other athletes, national champion cyclists

who had inflammation in their knees and at age 19, you know, it had pain that made their career suffer to some degree. And then a plant-based diet eradicated that and they were able to perform and then become champions and all these different levels. And I know Fiona Oakes is someone you know and have talked to, I mean, she didn't have a kneecap in her right knee and wasn't even supposed to walk

or let alone run and went on to overcome that. And has been plant-based since age five or so, vegan for nearly 50 years and has gone on to set Guinness World Records. And when you look across the board, men or women, doesn't matter the sport, so many people came to this lifestyle to reduce inflammation, improve recovery and have better results.

And that's what they did. And it's so fun to tell those stories. There's also stories of people who had all kinds of problems with addiction, you know, and overcame that, you know, like Dodsey Bausch is open about that and John Joseph's rough childhood, you know, like these are inspirational

and in a lot of ways ways their success is aspirational. And that's what, I mean, I get moved every time I read the book because of those stories. Just this past week, have you guys been following the iron cowboy who's trying to do these a hundred Ironmans in a row? You're aware of this guy? That was a couple of years ago.

No, he did 50 Ironmans in 50 states in 50 days. But now he's in the midst of trying to do this thing called Conquer 100, where he's doing 100. He goes out the front door of his house and does an Ironman every day. And he's on like day 72 right now or something like that. Wow. It's insane. Right, like every single day doing an Ironman.

And he's had struggles that he's overcome. And the whole thing is playing out on Instagram stories. And he's very transparent about his injuries or what he's dealing with. Like this is no small fee, like this is a big deal. But just the other day, the reason I'm bringing this up is just the other day, I think it was yesterday, he switched up his diet like a week ago.

I've been trying to encourage this guy to go plant-based for a long time. And I've kinda, you know, he flirts with it, but then he goes, you know, whatever. I don't know what he was eating, you know, for the first 50 some odd of these Ironmans, but he switched up his diet. I can only suspect that it became much more whole food based

and more plant forward or plant leaning. I'm not gonna say he went plant-based, I know he didn't, but I know that he started building into his daily routine a lot more whole foods. And he said that he dropped five pounds of inflammation. Like he felt he went, and then the next four days he felt the best, like through 68 to 72 of these Ironmans,

he said he felt the best that he had felt so far. So my point being that inflammation is not just a real thing. Like that's an extreme example of the impact of the foods that you're eating on your body's response to exercise induced stress and how important it is. So if you're looking to recover, eating a plant centric diet, plant-based diet

is going to take you a long way towards, towards, you know, reducing that inflammation that impede your body's ability to repair itself in between workouts. And in turn, of course, you know, will power you through, you know, bigger breakthroughs than you would have ordinarily, because that inflammation stunts your body's ability

to adapt and grow. Yeah, that's like, everyone always asks what the mechanism is. They're like, well, why does a plant-based diet supposedly so much better for sports if you're claiming that it is? And no one's ever really known, we don't know what it is. It just, it seems like you stopped getting injured.

And, but Brendan Brasier back in the early 2000s was saying that it was, when he experimented with a bunch of diets back in high school, he found that this was the one that let him recover fastest and get back so he could get in, you know, whatever, 10 workouts in a week when the competition could only get six or something like that.

And so I think that's a huge part of what, you know, of the story behind why plant-based diet seems to be so good for sports is that the anti-inflammatory compounds that are just naturally part of it without even trying, much less if you actually do try and seek out the foods that would maximize that. It just allows you to get back out there faster and be back out there a hundred percent or very close to it rather than every time you come out,

you're a little bit worse so that eventually an injury follows. One of the things that I love about the book is that you really catch us up on the latest research. Like if your starting point is Brendan Brager's book or Michael Greger's book or whatever, there's been a lot of science that's gone down in the interluding period, right?

So when you dug into the science to put this book together, what did you discover in terms of the more recent stuff that's been going on that perhaps people are not aware of? Yeah, that was really the exciting part because there haven't been a ton of studies, but in the last year or two, they're just exploding. And we even got one in the last minute, you know how it goes with editing and your final pass.

We snuck one in that I think got in there, something like in April, 2021 study, a strength study, because we got I think got in there, something like an April 2021 study, a strength study, because we got the endurance study in there, the one in Montreal already, with the plant-based women versus the omnivorous women. And they all had better performance, like across the board. The plant-based athletes had greater endurance, greater strength, greater, you know,

whatever the results were. But now we're seeing it in strength as well. And that's something that has always been kind of eluding us. I think we've known, even just observationally, I mean, look at you, look at Matt, look at Scott Jurek, one of the greatest runners the world has ever known, Brendan Brazier, Fiona Oaks.

It's so common for athletes to excel, endurance athletes to excel on a plant-based diet. But to now see actual studies that put men of the same age group, the same body size, the same training background, put them on a plant-based diet or an animal-based diet and even supplemental protein that is exclusively plant protein versus exclusively whey or casein protein and see them reach essentially the exact same strength results or muscle size results. They measure both often.

And that's, I think that is really, really exciting. And we're not here to say that we're unequivocally better. We're just better because you can't. I mean, look at the Olympic games, look at the NFL, the NBA. There's a lot of people powered by an omnivorous diet. Now that doesn't speak to their long-term health, but as far as performance, we can't necessarily say we're just completely better.

But what we can say is we now have studies, we have trials, we have these things that have been conducted for months to show that after 12 weeks or whatever period it's been, those on an exclusively plant-based diet built the exact same amount of strength and the same muscle mass as those on a standard omnivorous athletic diet.

And that's exciting. And some of those have just come out. I follow Garth Davis and others who are really quick to share those. And it's like, okay, we gotta get that one in the book now. Cause it's just coming out now. Right. Matt, you're a runner, Robert, you're a strength athlete.

It's an interesting pairing because I think it is true. Sort of to date historically, the narrative has been coming from an endurance perspective, right? All these runners who are experiencing these results going plant-based, that's a very different beast than the strength, agility and power athlete. Like whether you're in the NBA

or you're a power lifter or a bodybuilder, I think that's where the information gap is a little bit because people who are interested in that see all the runners and they're like, yeah, but that's not my jam. Right. But I mean, they're Olympian power lifters, right? Sure, but those stories are not as widely known.

Sure, right. And I think that's actually what kind of an approach that James Wilkes took with the game changers. And James is in our book as well. One of the people we interviewed and shared his story. And I think that was kind of the premise was he wanted to speak to those strength athletes. You know, he has that line in the movie,

all these people like Scott Jurek, you know, they're pretty lean, you know, they're real lean. But then he found Patrick Baboumian and others who are doing this. And one of my favorite examples is one of my best friends, Vanessa Espinoza. I think she's pound for pound the strongest person that I know. I mean, she's someone who's been plant-based for 20 years, ethical vegan, you know, tattooed all over her. She was an all-American basketball player at only five foot three, drafted into the WNBA, went on to become a three-time

Colorado Golden Gloves boxing champion. Her father was a professional boxer. So she got to meet Muhammad Ali and all these people growing up. And then when she got into powerlifting, she almost set a world record in her very first meet where she weighs 130 pounds, can pull over 400 pounds off the floor,

can squat 365, bench press 250 or so. And we train together and she uses 110 pound dumbbells in each hand pressing overhead. We've leg pressed a thousand pounds together. And I'm almost twice her size. And she lifts the same weight as I do. And she dominates every single sport she's ever been in. She's been an elite champion at a world-class level.

And she's totally humble. She's under the radar. She just quietly goes about her business being pound for pound the best that I've known. Is she part of that vegan strong bodybuilding team that you have? Yeah, she is. And she's in the book of course,

because it's just so fascinating. Right. And there's others too that are, that's one of the fun things. I mean, we can name drop, you know, you and Scott Jurek and some of these bigger names, James Wilkes, Rip. But for me, the fun part is telling the compelling stories

of those who are under the radar. You know, especially a lot of amazing women out there who aren't in a lot of the documentaries that aren't in books that, but they're like Laura Klein, who's dominating, you know, especially a lot of amazing women out there who aren't in a lot of the documentaries that aren't in books that, but they're like Laura Klein, who's dominating, you know, her sport as a world champion to athlete and so many others in bodybuilding and other sports, a bunch of Olympic athletes

that are just doing amazing things and be able to share those stories. Yeah. Let's do a little myth busting, starting off with the big one, the elephant in the room. What could it be? Yeah, what could this question possibly be? Where do you get your protein?

Matt, you're a runner. Robert, you're a power strength athlete. Where do you get your protein? I mean, we've given the same answer for the years and it's that you don't need that much, which I know is so unsatisfying to people. I think they just want the secret source so that we can get on how to do it.

But I mean, I just don't think about, even recently I've gotten into kettlebell lifting. Like I'm much more these days that than a runner after kind of a prolonged, just like lack of inspiration in sports and just kind of doing the parenting thing instead and entrepreneurship and all that. But like, I'm kind of back now

and really feeling great and having great results. And I don't take protein powder. I eat beans fairly often. I eat seitan now and then. I eat tofu, which is beans, but if you eat whole foods, it's there. I mean, and the recent athlete studies are saying, especially for vegetarian or vegan athletes who don't,

and we can come out and say it, you don't absorb plant protein, I think about 10% lower, sorry, you get a 10% less sort of efficiency in absorption. So you need to eat a little bit more for sure, but it's not a ton more. And like three quarters of a gram per pound of body weight, that would be plenty. And the regular non-athlete recommendation

is much lower than that. It's something like 0.36 grams per pound per day. Really not that much. And I think most people are eating way too much protein, which I know we all say that and people don't seem to believe it. But, and I think that's why the question perpetuates because there is no great answer.

Like, oh yeah, this is all you need to do to get that huge amount, but you just don't need that much. I mean, that's what it is. Yeah, I think it's almost a separate episode. I mean, this topic could just go on forever, but I think it starts with why do you believe that you need a whole lot of protein? And what is your understanding of protein and what it does?

And why are you obsessed with it? I think it's for everyone to answer. Why do we try to optimize our protein intake without optimizing our carbohydrate intake or optimizing our fat intake or optimizing our sleep or optimizing our recovery or optimizing these other areas of performance that are hydration.

We don't, we focus on protein. I think it's been the most brilliantly marketed thing around because what it's done is it's convinced people who are not active, non-athletes. It's convinced them that they need to reach for a protein-enriched food as a beverage when they're sitting on the couch and watching television, if they're going to reach for something, it's got to be protein infused,

whether that's a meat product or a beverage or a protein water or anything else, because that's been conditioned that, and even if people who are, are, are quite overweight, uh, or, you know, clearly have consumed a lot of protein in their life, but they still are afraid that they just need more of it and that more is better. But I'm convinced that more isn't better and it can have adverse implications on health. But also I think one thing that people are totally missing here,

and I don't know if you've talked about this, I'm sure with other guests, but what happens when you emphasize protein intake? To me, you completely overlook the more nutrient-rich complex carbohydrates that provide more fiber, vitamins, minerals, antioxidants, nitric oxide, water, and all these other things to optimize health or optimize performance. But we're focused on an isolated nutrient that we often take in isolated form. And we miss out on all this other stuff because we're filling up on calories

that could have been complex carbohydrates, which by the way, I have a lot of protein in them too. The way I think about it and let me know how this lands for you guys is you're correct, Robert. Like we've been sold this narrative that if you don't drink a protein shake within 10 minutes of waking up in the morning,

that somehow you're not gonna be able to breathe air in and out of your lungs, that we're all walking around, you know, basically in this constant state of protein deprivation, but I don't know about you. I don't know anyone who's gone to the hospital for a protein deficiency. I just don't think it's a thing. I think you're right, Matt, that almost everybody is far exceeding their daily recommended intake of protein.

But for some reason, we've been spun this yarn that we need copious amounts of protein to just live. And I think it's a fallacy. In truth, when you look at food and in specifically plant-based foods, when we're talking about protein, we're talking about amino acids, right? And we're really talking about the nine essential

amino acids that our bodies can't synthesize on their own and that we need to get from our food. Those amino acids are the building blocks of protein. But in truth, if you're grazing randomly on plant-based foods, it's almost like we've evolved, like, and the plant kingdom has evolved to just automatically meet those needs. Like you're gonna meet your 10% of calories from protein

just by eating plants of, you know, a relatively, you know, relative spectrum of plants throughout the day. And your body takes care of the rest. Like it's just not a thing. So when you look at that number, what is it, 0.8 grams per kilogram is kind of like quoted as the main thing.

Like I've calibrated my protein intake against that. And even when I'm training hard, I'm still like, I'm still below that, but I'm improving, I'm not getting injured, I'm making gains. And it's often led me to question, you know, this whole paradigm altogether. And, you know, Garth Davis

is probably the most prominent person. He wrote a whole book, Proteinaholic on this subject matter. We spend all this time worried about our protein intake. Meanwhile, we're all fiber deficient. We're all, you know, micronutrient deficient. We're, you know, we're not getting enough vitamin D or whatever it is.

We have all these other gaps in our diet that should be causing us concern. And yet the focus always comes back to protein. Well, let's continue a little bit further. The short answer, which I could have just given you, led with, is that if you consume adequate calories based on your body's needs, you'll get adequate protein. You'll get enough protein.

That's the thing. It's the calorie intake that's important. So people talk about, I gotta build muscle. I gotta put on mass. Well, I've put on 100 pounds since I became vegan, 120 pounds to 220 pounds. And for the last decade, I haven't consumed protein powders, protein supplements, or even had an emphasis on protein.

Right, that's one thing I wanted to get into you because you've gone through this arc in terms of your relationship with supplements. Yeah, and with protein. I was consuming, I mean, I can tell you, I was consuming 300 grams of protein, 5,000 calories a day for a while. Now I consume less than 100 grams a day.

How much of that, sorry to interrupt, but how much of that previously was in the form of like protein powders versus food? Six a day. I mean, I worked for Vega for 10 years. I got, I had, you should have seen, I looked, I was like a GNC in my basement. It was unbelievable.

I had access to anything I wanted and I used it as long as it was plant-based. I was doing really sometimes five, six protein drinks a day. And I actually, I got bigger and stronger, better, just overall better performance, the best I've ever been later in life, late thirties, early forties on now a decade

without that about any of those sports supplements, just vitamin B12. Was it just curiosity or what was the impetus to ditch that stuff and see what would happen without it? It came from when I worked in the Forks Over Knives office and I was downing Vega like crazy. And Brian and Robbie were the only other guys in the office for a while.

And they were teasing me all the time. Robert's gotta have this protein drink to tie his shoes and another supplement to walk across the room. And they just kept getting on me. Like here I was working for this film about whole foods and reversing disease and being your best health and all this stuff. And I was just sitting in the office

drinking powders all day long. Right, but I get it because you're trying to make gains. Like that's, it's one thing, Forks Over Knives is really about combating chronic lifestyle illness, not about like killing it in the gym. Right, but their personal argument was that

you can achieve these things without the supplementation, without the emphasis on protein. Right. So I- That was a relatively untested hypothesis. Right, and I completely argued with it. I disagreed with it. And so I decided, you know,

I'm gonna enroll in Dr. Campbell's plant-based nutrition program, the nutrition center for nutrition studies. So I did that 2012. And in that course, I was kind of hilarious looking back. I wrote papers arguing, you know, what does 80 year old, you know, skinny Campbell know about building muscle

and being a champion bodybuilder? I argued, I wrote papers that if you take a NFL team, put them on a high protein diet and another NFL team of equal skill and talent, put them on a low protein diet, the high protein diet is going to smash the other team. And then I said, take the, you know, the skill set out and just do it weightlifting, maybe just something that's just, you know, a real easy thing to measure. The high protein people are going to win every time. And then, and I argued and I argued, and then I decided to do the one thing

that so many people are unwilling to do, especially in my space and the vegan bodybuilding space was to 100% give it a try, cut out all sports supplements, except for vitamin B12 or, you know, maybe something else that was necessary, vitamin D or DHA, EPA, whatever. But I really wasn't doing that.

It was just B12. And to cut the emphasis on protein, just stop, just stop thinking about it. I mean, even to this day, I, you know, hold the tofu, please. You know, that's what I really do. Not because you were convinced, but because you wanted to test this.

I had to test it, I had to test it. So what happened? What happened was, it just happened to be the same time that I was getting tired of bodybuilding. And so I'd been, I'd peaked at 195 pounds at the time. I dropped all the way down to 165 because I was pursuing running. And so now it's like, oh, okay, that makes sense.

His low protein diet's not working anymore. And I ran a bunch of half marathons with my wife and I ran 5Ks and finished in the top five in every race that I competed in. I have a background in running, of course. So it came naturally for me. And it felt good to be back doing it again. We had 165 pounds. and finished in the top five in every race that I competed in. I have a background in running, of course, so it came naturally for me. And it felt good to be back doing it again.

We had 165 pounds. And then the eve of the Fort Collins Marathon in Colorado, this woman recognized me at the gym. And I said, hey, you're Robert Cheek, right? It ended up being Vanessa Espinoza, who's now one of my absolute best friends. And I kind of like, you know, immediately like puffed up like a rooster because I was so small. And she's like, you're one of my absolute best friends. And I kind of like, you know, immediately like puffed up like a rooster

because I was so small. And she's like, you're one of my heroes and all this stuff. And I saw her again a week later and again, and we started training together. And in 18 months, I went from 165 pounds to 205 pounds, bigger and stronger than it ever been in my life while writing Shred It and following this low protein, no supplement, except for B12 approach.

And it was amazing. And that's when I was convinced that the nutrients per calorie that you get from a whole food plant-based diet, when you emphasize, especially complex carbohydrates, it's just doing things. Like Matt said, it's doing things to help your recovery. You're naturally reducing inflammation. You're not eating pro-inflammatory foods. You're eating

anti-inflammatory foods. I could train, I was lifting like 120 pound dumbbells in each hand over her head. I'd never done that before. And this was all- So you actually were lifting more. You were stronger. Yeah. And bigger. And I mean, 165 to 205. And before, remember I had maxed out at 195 with five protein drinks a day, four frozen burritos a day, seven Clif Bars a day, doing whatever I could

because it was hard for me to put on mass. And then this past year with the quarantine and everything, I thought, man, how cool would it be if I could reach that milestone of putting on a hundred pounds total. So I started the year at like 208 or so and I got up to 223 at one point, slimmed down a little bit for this podcast.

I was getting, you know, my belt wouldn't even work anymore but I got really strong. I mean, I'm still, I'm just using 110 pound dumbbells, no spotter needed, I just do my thing. And that's on a low protein approach. And I think people need to put it to the test to see for themselves, because what you're missing by focusing on protein could be all those benefits

of a complex carbohydrate diet that help with energy, recovery, overall fuel and performance. And I think if people can give that a try, they're gonna see a world of difference. Right. And so where do you fall now, both you guys, Matt, you've been quiet over there. I know Robert likes to talk,

but we gotta give Matt a chance to talk a little bit here. In terms of supplementation as a whole, when we're thinking about making sure that we were getting adequate omega-3s and DHA and iron and all the other things. I mean, I know you talk about this in the book, but where do you fall in terms of sourcing from whole food sources versus some level

of responsible supplementation? I mean, Matt, you have supplements, so. Sure. I'm a believer in responsible supplementation. I think a lot of people, regardless of your diet, are walking around with certain deficiencies. So how do you think about and speak to that? Yeah, so it's good to separate the sports supplementation

from supplementation for long-term health and also just short-term wellbeing. So the protein stuff, you know, to me is an optional supplement. It's useful for some athletes, perhaps. It's useful for older people. Like I said, I don't take protein powder, but I do give some to my kids who are both athletes.

And I'm just, it's just, I think it's one of those sort of parenting things where like, I don't wanna do anything wrong possibly for them. So that's why like insurance policy. Yeah, you were talking about that on that podcast recently. And as a parent myself, I'm thinking, yeah, I live this. I believe it.

I advocate it. But like, I really don't wanna screw up my kids. Right, it's just different. When you're looking at your kids, you're like, is this, am I doing this right? Like I wanna make sure that they mature and grow and develop the way that they should be. Yeah, and there are also some different forces

that play with kids just because in many cases, like at high levels of youth sports, they're competing against kids who are eating, you know, a diet that's gonna make them perhaps unnaturally large, like most people eat. So, you know, there's a little bit of a balancing act there while also really still putting their long-term health first and foremost.

And that's honestly why I developed that protein powder was to give to them. But anyway, back to like the short-term and the long-term supplements, but not sports supplements. Yeah, I mean, a plant-based diet, like you said, is so rich in so many things, but you know, I think most of you are kidding yourself if you don't admit that it is deficient in B12.

That's the one that pretty much is universally agreed upon. There are people who still argue you'll get it from dirty produce or whatever. But with modern agriculture, it's just not in the soil like it was. And we don't eat the soil. Like we don't consume soil like we used to. We just used to get into our bodies.

So that's a big one. You've mentioned D3. DHA, EPA, they're the two omega-3 fatty acids that just don't really show up in plant-based foods except for algae. You can get ALA, another type of omega-3 from walnuts and flax seeds. And if you eat to get enough of it,

some people can convert that into DHA and EPA. But I think a lot of people are fooled by packaging saying, hey, this is high in omega-3s, thinking I'll just get that for my omega-3s. But really it's, and it's something that I'm grateful that the awareness is increasing among vegan doctors and even among vegan non-doctors that many people should be supplementing with DHA or EPA.

Which is like, you do it in an algae base. In an algae form, yep. So those are the big three, it's actually four, but I just think of DHA and EPA as three. And then, you know, there's more. I mean, there's K2, iodine, selenium, zinc, these minerals and K2 that are just harder to get. They're not impossible to get, they're in things.

Like zinc is in plenty of things, it's just that we don't absorb it that much. So like, you know, depending on your diet, you may or may not be getting these foods. You know, so we make a supplement that has all those things, but that's kind of where I am. I think those big three are important. I think after that, it's sort of an insurance policy.

For me, it's like, why not? I don't have any need to, as we talked about earlier, defend this diet by being so pure as to say, I can do this without supplements. That doesn't matter to me. What matters to me is what the science shows leads to long-term health. And that's where I come out.

Right, so how do you address the criticism that I'm sure you guys have heard? We're like, well, if you need a supplement with B12, obviously this is an inadequate diet. It's exactly what I said before. You can make the natural argument, but then I'll make the empirical science argument. Like D is a great example.

Like we, it feels good to go out in the sun and get vitamin D because like, take your shirt off and go out in the sun. That feels good. It's probably a practice that natural selection rewarded. It probably made us healthy and helped us reach that age where we would have offspring and be around to care for them

for a little while. But then skin cancer catches up with you and natural selection doesn't care about that. So to me, supplementing with the D is probably the better choice than to do what is the quote unquote natural way of getting it. Now, I think it's still good to get some naturally,

of course, like, you know, be outside, expose some skin. But like, I think the dangers of sun radiation are probably worth supplementing D instead of getting it that way. But the D thing really isn't even a vegan thing. I mean, I had Dr. Andrew Weil in here the other day and he's banging the vitamin D drum. And he basically said, if you live north of like Atlanta,

like you're too far north to really get your vitamin D from the sun with the exception of a couple months a year, like during the maybe spring and summer, and that's basically it. So there's a huge swath of the population that's vitamin D deficient. And because we essentially live indoors almost all the time, it's the responsible thing to do is to like make sure

that you're supplementing appropriately or just getting your blood levels checked to make sure that you're on top of it. But just going out in the sun in November, if you live in Boston is not gonna do it. Right, and like Matt said, we don't have to sit here and defend the diet, but I did make a little funny,

kind of a funny comment in the book about who's out there taking all the Flintstone vitamins. Well, it's not people on a plant-based diet. They're getting vitamins from produce, from fruits and vegetables for the most part. And so you look at the general population, they're in many cases supplementing more. And growing up on a farm

and having an animal agriculture professor as a father, I know that animal feed is heavily supplemented as well. In fact, my dad worked as a consultant for some of these ingredients like yucca and other things that go into these various supplements that go into animal food, which then goes into the animal tissue, which people consume.

And so I think a lot more people are supplementing than they think by taking their daily vitamins. Well, the second hand, well, there's the second hand stuff that you get from eating the animals. Right, and then there's the, even all the fortified muscle milk and all that stuff too, that it's like, well, this is good for protein,

but it's all fortified with all this other stuff too, so. You also have a whole section in the book about basically natural supplements. They're not technically supplements, but they are a supplement to your typical diet in the sense that there are things that aren't found just in a whole food that you're gonna eat.

So let's spend a little time talking about what those are. I mean, caffeine, of course, you go into adaptogens, endurance boosting foods like beets. Tart cherry juice is a great one. You didn't have cordyceps in there though. I guess that's technically an adaptogen. Yeah, was it listed in the adaptogens? We may have mentioned there.

I noticed that Maka was left out of the adaptogens. I referenced it in my previous book. You write enough books like, you know, things kind of roll together. But you did have creatine in there, which I thought was interesting. So talk a little bit about that. Matt, you wanna, I've been doing it.

I've had all these endurance people in here, but like creatine is a strength thing, right? Yeah. I like creatine. a strength thing. Right? Yeah. I like creatine. I think the studies that are out on it and it's been studied now for quite a while. It appears that I know there are anecdotal stories of people who whatever happens to their kidney or something.

But like when you look at the science, it appears that it is completely safe. I don't give it to my kids because there's not enough science there yet. It's not in plant-based foods by and large. So we are getting less than an omnivore would. It's also been shown to improve memory and things like that when vegetarians or vegans take it.

So there's some cognitive benefits. So I think it's a good thing. It's not something that I take a ton of or would wanna go crazy with, but I don't know. Robert, why? I don't think Robert likes creatine either, right? No, actually it was the worst for me ever of any supplement I ever took.

I couldn't even finish workouts. It was so hard on my stomach, just stomach pains. And then I tried crealcalin, like a liquid form instead of the powder. I just couldn't get it to work for me. And I was into it just because I was trying to use any bodybuilding supplement that was natural. Is it natural?

How do they synthesize it? What does it make? How do they make it? I don't even know. I mean, everything is lab made these days. What I mean is like natural as far as like not a banned substance, not an anabolic steroid or hormone or growth hormone or something like that.

But it's not derived from animal products? No, no, I mean, they'll say vegan right on the package. Like, I don't know from a chemistry background how this stuff is made, but pretty much everything is just lab made these days by different chemicals together. And here's your powder certified vegan creatine. Like, I don't know behind the scenes,

the white coats, how that's made, but it's out there. And I think Matt, we mentioned this in the book that vegans and vegetarians tend to benefit the most because if their creatine intake levels were already kind of low, once you start taking it, you get that faster, you know, you get the results a bit faster or more significant. And basically it helps retain water, you know,

your muscles and it helps- It's a vanity supplement really. But it also gives you some more mass. Like that's what I argued in the book is that if you have an extra five or 10 pounds, you have more mass to move more mass with and therefore can enhance strength gains. You have more mass to work with, which is what helps as you're building muscle, right?

I mean, as I go from 165 to 220, the more mass I have to work with, the more strength that I get. I'm just, I'm just have more space. I have, I have just, you know, bigger limbs. I can, I can move more weight and then I get stronger and then I get bigger because I listed the muscle growth in that process. I have just bigger limbs, I can move more weight and then I get stronger and then I get bigger

because I listed the muscle growth in that process. So creatine can kind of help in those kinds of ways. But I think, I mean, to get back to like less controversial ones, tart cherry juice is a great one. I give that to my kids all the time. That's kind of my post-workout drink usually is a tart cherry juice thing. Again, just with the anti-inflammation

that's been shown to reduce muscle soreness and inflammation. So that's a great one. Ginger, turmeric, these do the same things. And that's what I was saying earlier about like plant-based foods have lots and lots of anti-inflammatory compounds without even trying, but these particular ones, you know, they really pack it. And you know, who knows if it's a placebo effect

or just, you know, ginger shot will wake you up like nothing else. So I just, I like working those things in, but they're supplements. They're not necessary additives to a diet. Your son is killing it in soccer, right? You guys like relocated so that he could be on an amazing team. Yeah. Which is not quite as dramatic as it sounds. The reality is I was driving like two to three hours, three times a week, both ways. And it was like, this is just killing us. So the, uh, the new MLS team that starts next

season, they, there's one called Charlotte FC in, in North Carolina. Uh, and so he got into their youth program, which is quite an opportunity. So we, we started doing that and we were driving there and then we were like, well, why don't we just get an apartment there and see how that is. And we did that and worked out great. And then we found all these other soccer opportunities in Charlotte. So, yeah, so we, we've kind of kind of oriented our lives, as I mentioned earlier, a lot of it around the kids as athletes now or the kids as humans now really. And it's been so much fun. I've really, really loved being a soccer dad.

And your kids are plant-based? Yeah, completely plant-based. And performing as athletes? They're doing really good. Yeah. I think, I don't know, it's like I said, there are things I worry about. I do worry about like the size

if they're competing against kids who are eating a less natural diet or I shouldn't say less natural, but like one that encourages extreme growth perhaps, but they both have really, really great endurance. And I think that's probably a testament to their diet. And what about the socialization aspect of it with their peers? So they both grew up for the most part

in Asheville, North Carolina, where like everybody eats some kind of diet. It's like a happy town. Yeah, yeah. So it's really nothing different. But Charlotte, that's a different vibe. Charlotte is a different vibe, but it's also a different time.

Like these days, like we tell people we're vegan and they're like, oh yeah, well you can go to this vegan place down the road or get an impossible burger. You know, like no one thinks that much of it. I don't think anymore, which is a very good thing. And what about with their friends? How does that work?

Only recently have we had little things where like a kid will make fun of it or something. And Holden told me once he was practicing up with like the older age group kids and somehow someone, one of them saw his Instagram or something and knew that he was plant-based. Can I shout out his Instagram? It's Mountain Football Kid. What is it?

Mountain Football Kid. Mountain Football Kid? He kills it on Instagram. All right, everybody get on that. Let's like blow up this kid's Instagram. That was one of my missions. One of my missions was try to say Mountain Football Kid on a real podcast.

Good, well, we accomplished that. I'm gonna make a big deal about it now. Good. Everybody stop what you're doing right now. Mountain Football Kid. And easy, easy. Percy, where we could Good. Everybody stop what you're doing right now. Mountain football kid. And easy. Percy where we could get, how many followers does he have right now?

I think he said that like 2000 now or so. 2000, that's pretty good for a high school kid. I'm teaching him how to do content marketing. He's 11. 11. All right. We monitor it, don't worry. It's not a- Let's get it up to like 10,000.

Let's do that. And he's trained in Spain, right? Multiple years in Spain. He was with the Atlanta MLS team. I've watched Holden. We went to a, Matt and I went to a soccer game. We met up and, you know, person to work on some of the book aspects and Holden was just schooling everybody

on the field during halftime with this like semi-pro game or something. And I've known Holden since he was born. Yeah. So we go back a long way. Cool. But anyway, someone saw his Instagram and they were making fun of him or something during a practice.

And it was like the only time I've really ever dealt with anything like that where he told me in the car and he was sort of embarrassed that it had happened. And I was like, oh, I mean, whatever. And we just talked about it and it lasted about 10 minutes. And he didn't.

And then the next time he didn't care. They're so comfortable with it because I mean, they know that's what I do. It's a very much part of their being. It's not like just the thing we're trying that's weird and they're ready to ditch it whenever. Like they just, they know it's- They're into it.

Yeah, so to be made fun of for 10 minutes doesn't really matter. That's cool. That's no small feat. I feel like kids either define themselves in terms of trying to like live up to the example their parents set, or they try to, they sort of push the boundaries

and try to figure out who they are by defining themselves in opposition to their parents. We're dealing with a little of that right now. So maybe that's common, but from the beginning, I've said to them, if you guys ever want to like, we're not going to cook it in the house, but if you guys want to have a hamburger one day, you know, tell me.

I'm not here to like prevent, like limit your choice. I know in some capacity I am. If they started eating that stuff routinely, I would say, I don't think this is the healthiest thing you could do, but I don't want to dictate their ethics and say you're not allowed to do this. So I've said, if you ever want that,

you know, you tell me and we'll work that out. I don't know how, but we'll do that. I think that's a really important point that deserves a little bit of attention, because I think by doing that, you're basically accomplishing a couple of things. First of all, you're removing all of the kind of tension around that idea, because there's nothing to rebel against.

You're like, you want a hamburger here? I'll give you a hamburger, right? So there's no, they're not gonna get any rush out of being like, I'm doing something wrong. Like you're like, it's cool. And secondarily, you're saying, it's not about, like I'm not gonna get caught up in the minutia of your daily choices. What I'm interested in get caught up in the minutia of your daily choices.

What I'm interested in is creating a foundation of education and healthy habits that will serve you throughout the rest of your life. It's not about that hamburger, it's about how are you gonna be eating in five years, 10 years, 15 years from now. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Back to a little bit of myth busting or just kind of top level subjects. Another thing that comes up a lot, I'm sure you fielded this inquiry frequently is, okay, maybe I could be interested in this, but this just sounds like a lot of work. What am I gonna be in the kitchen like all day long doing meal prep and I'm gonna have to buy

all these exotic foods and I'm gonna have to be thinking about what I'm eating like all the time. It's just, I'm busy. Yeah, well, maybe I'm a good person to answer this because I don't know how to cook anything. Unlike you guys who have cookbooks and I can't make anything. And I've been doing this for 25 years. Unlike you guys who have cookbooks and I can't make anything.

And I've been doing this for 25 years. So it's totally easy for me. Largely, I eat a lot of simple foods. I eat a lot of produce. I eat foods that I really enjoy, lots of different fruits and foods that are already prepared. Like I rolled into town and picked up some plant-based sushi, you know, Whole Foods Market, or I can get it anywhere. It doesn't have to be an elitist kind of store

like Whole Foods, it can be anywhere. And just the accessibility of anything that you already enjoy, burritos, tacos, pizza, sandwiches, wraps, salads, sushi, pho, whatever it is, it's there, it's available. And I'm someone who's a recovering workaholic. Like I used to have to maximize every one of the 1,440 minutes we have each day.

And that goes back to my early days of hustle, hustle, grind, Gary Vaynerchuk inspired in 2009 when I met him and used to kind of follow that crush it approach. And even as someone who was obsessively busy, it worked for me because I could just go down the street to some place and get a burrito. I could go, you know, or I'd have a bunch of fruit at home and not just boring fruit.

You know, at one time I counted, I had 19 different types of fruit at home at one time. And that can be berries and melons and citrus and lots of different things, avocado. And so there's a variety there. You just grab, you know, grab some blueberries, grab some raspberries, strawberries, watermelon, pineapple, whatever. And then the heavier stuff, you know, doesn't really take much work. You know, I say I can't cook, but I obviously know how to make rice or pasta and those kinds of things. So it can be

staples. They're heavier, more calorie dense. You add other things to them, some olives, some sauce, you add other things to them, some olives, some sauce, whatever. But the point is it's more accessible now than ever before. I mean, I'm sure that's just on repeat now. Everyone's repeating that. You can just get it at fast food places. Not that we're encouraging people to eat fast food, but the accessibility of a plant-based diet

has never been greater than it is today. And it doesn't have to be exotic, doesn't have to be expensive. And you just go down the street and find some great vegan food. Yeah, the floor for me is always, at least within the United States, I know that pretty much every city I go to,

there's gonna be a Chipotle and I can get a burrito bowl or a vegan burrito bowl or vegan burrito. So it doesn't matter where I'm headed. If I'm headed to a city, I don't have to think about it. There's always that. If I can't find something else, I'll always be able to feed myself there. And now Taco Bell has actually,

I mean, they're not the healthiest, but there are a lot of good vegan options there. If you want something different. Are there? Oh, tons. Yeah, like black bean anything. I don't eat in Taco Bell. And that's what I was gonna say. That was the staple in the 90s

was talking about before Chipotle. That's where the vegans went. Here's the danger though. And maybe we could talk about this for a couple of minutes, which is, and you alluded to this at the beginning of the conversation, because plant-based vegan eating has become so popular and we have food scientists who figured out

how to make plant-based analogs to all our favorite animal product foods. There is just a proliferation of vegan junk food everywhere you look to the point where almost every single fast food restaurant has a Beyond Meat or an Impossible Burger. So you could literally just go back to being that that drive-through guy and say, I'm vegan, I'm healthy.

When you're truly really, if we're being honest, not eating any better than you were when you were on the junk food diet. Which I think that's a very real concern. It's cool that so much of the population is now able to incorporate more plant-based foods. And I think something like 60 or 70% of people are, in surveys say they are incorporating

more plant-based foods now. That's awesome. It's great for animals. Yeah, from an ethical and environmental perspective, fantastic. And for the time being, that's a good thing. What I wonder about, and my friend Ray Cronise has suggested this to me

a long time ago, is like what happens when they start studying people who eat quote unquote plant-based diets 10, 15 years from now, when people are doing what you just described. They're eating the junk food standard American diet, just the vegan version of it. And then the headlines are plant-based diet doesn't actually work.

Yeah, exactly. So I think that's a real danger. As great as it all is, as much as these conveniences are nice for people who are kind of already in. And I think certainly it's gonna create a bunch of vegans who, or I shouldn't say vegans, plant-based eaters who are part-time plant-based eaters who get into it. And then they realize via the impossible whopper or whatever, that they actually really like thinking

about their food. And that's just their very, very first step when they might not imagine being able to do this before, but then two, three years from now, they are doing all the work you just described. Like, yes, it is a lot of work to really eat healthily and like to make food. I don't want to say your hobby, but like one of the important pillars of your life is putting good food on the table or getting it in the car for a soccer trip

or getting it in your kids or whatever. That's real work. And I think the way to get to that really is like any other hobby. Like if you were super into going to the gym and you know all these different lifts and you know what, where you stand with each of those lifts and you know your personal best,

like that also took a lot of work to get that level of development. And like, that's, it's the same way with food, but you kind of start right where you are. I don't suggest anybody, I mean, if you're inspired, then sure, go plant-based overnight, just see what happens. But if it doesn't work, which in many, many cases, it won't because it's such a drastic shift, then sure, go plant-based overnight, just see what happens. But if it doesn't work, which in many, many cases,

it won't because it's such a drastic shift, then do the small steps approach. Start with just breakfast, do that for two weeks if you want. And then maybe start pushing the line to later and later in the day. But I just think starting where you are and kind of letting it become almost like a hobby for you, then yeah, it's work.

But anyone who knows who's done it, it just starts to feel really fun. Like it just feels really good to be eating really well. Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly with that idea that everybody needs an entry point and a semi-soft landing. And if that means going to Carl's Jr. or whatever fast food outlet

to get your plant-based version of a burger and you enjoy that, then suddenly you're on your little journey, right? And for a lot of people, myself included, that leads to much more engagement, like emotional attachment to the foods that you're eating, which leads to education, which leads to these improvements.

But I will say myself, as somebody who has a history of addiction and has been plant-based for 15 years, it's like, I could go to Umami Burger and get that like, it tastes so good. It tastes exactly like, and it's like, and it's vegan and it's plant-based. And I will play that game in my head and I will indulge with that.

And then I'm like, why did I do that? You know, and it's sort of like back to square one in terms of like from a health perspective on what I'm doing. But because those options are so readily available now, it means that if you wanna do this properly from a health perspective, that you do have to be a little bit more rigorous

than maybe we had to eight years ago. Yeah, what I always said was that like, what's so great about a plant-based diet, this is before it was really convenient to get all these plant-based junk foods, is the inconvenience. Like as much as everyone thinks this is inconvenient, that's what makes it great.

Because now if you're going on a road trip, and this is me speaking in 2010, you have to actually plan for that road trip or you're not gonna have any food. And when you plan, you're not gonna plan to eat junk food. You tend to plan good fruits, vegetables, whatever's kind of easy and like you make something nice for the trip.

Or if you're going out to, if I was gonna have beers and watch a game at a bar with my friends, I learned pretty quickly that there's nothing there for me to eat that's any good. So I'll just eat ahead of time at my house and maybe I'll still drink a beer, but I'm like, I don't need to, you know. But now they might have like plant-based buffalo wings

or something like that. Right, right, exactly. So that inconvenience is gone, which is cool, but it's also something like if, it's not any easier than ever, well, I shouldn't say that, to eat healthy. Cause there are an increasing number of actually really healthy options, thanks to technology.

I mean, they're getting frozen things or packaged things that actually are healthy and they're maintaining freshness. And that's all great. Yeah. And I think it's really just being mindful, just being mindful and deliberate. So how do we avoid just eating vegan junk food all the time?

Well, I think with some discipline, just like when we were kids, we didn't have a lot of our own money. We thought, man, as soon as I get money, I'm just gonna eat ice cream every single day, like all day, because that's what I want. But we express some sort of level of discipline and we don't do that.

Like right now, I have the means to go have vegan pizza or vegan burgers or vegan ice cream every single day if I want, but I don't because there's not a good nutritional return on investment there. Like I'm mindful of other things. Like I'd much rather have antioxidant rich berries and fruits and leafy greens.

And you know how you feel, like the way you feel is vastly different. And I know how to make it fun too. You know, this food doesn't have to be boring. I mean, you can make great foods for breakfast, lunch, dinner. I mean, think about this. How many people only once,

especially here in the US, let's say, only once they adopted a plant-based diet, do they start exploring Thai food and Indian food and Ethiopian food, Vietnamese food? I know this. That was me. Yeah, for decades. I mean, my wife was the same.

So many others were the same, myself included too. And now that's often my favorite cuisine, Indian food, Ethiopian food, Thai food. Like that's it. Like that's my game. And that's through a plant-based diet that diversified my palate.

And to realize that those foods are very often rice and vegetable, you know, dishes. Right. And, and, and also I want to mention this. I, I've done quite a bit of traveling. Now, some of it was just, I mean, while I worked on cruise ships, but you know, I have been to over 30 countries and I haven't found any place, whether it was Russia or Poland or anywhere in the world, that was a challenge to do this lifestyle. I've been through China and Indonesia and Thailand and Australia and all these different corners of the world.

And it's all there, right? In fact, it's plentiful in some of those areas. Like a plant-based diet. That's been my experience as well. I mean, Southeast Asia is probably my favorite place on the planet. Like that's where I would just be like, I would thrive like crazy.

Mangosteen, you know, the amazing fruit there and the weather and the exercise and outdoor. Like that's the thing, this diet isn't just for, you know, I don't think just for people who can pay for a $10 burger, but the plant-based foods are available anywhere. And it's incredibly affordable if you stick to a lot of the basics,

the rice, lentils, beans. That's the other thing too, that people think they're, because it's so heavily associated with the whole foods life, right? That people think it's expensive, but as Rip Esselstyn is always fond of saying, like we're talking about popper food. It's like rice and beans, produce.

Like this is not, it's not about being fancy. It's not about chia seeds and hemp seeds. Those things are great, but essentially these are staples that humans have been eating for millennial, irrespective of your kind of social or economic status. And look at the blue zones. Some of the consistent themes

throughout the longest lived people in all different cultures and all corners of the world are legumes. They think that's a common theme that binds their diets together and a heavy plant-based diet, maybe minimal animal protein. And these are foods that are incredibly affordable.

I even wrote like a 35 page article on that. It meant to be 800 words, but as you can tell, I'm a little bit long winded at times. Yeah, I get your emails, I know. Oh, you do, I didn't know that. Oh, that's amazing. Oh, so you saw the one yesterday. Yeah, I did see it.

Oh, that's great, that's great. I did not know that, but I appreciate that. I'm actually honored. Yeah, so I mean, I wrote all about that and it turns out the most affordable foods, when you take out government subsidies and all these kinds of things, and then you get the nutrition per calorie,

I measured all this stuff. The number one food in the world is the Mighty Lentil, as far as the actual nutritional return on investment you get per cent, per penny. And then all the foods you'd expect, pinto beans, rice, oats, all right up there as well. And these are foods that should be hopefully accessible to most people. And they're great nutritionally.

They last for a long time. You can make them in batches. That's another thing we talk about in the book and oftentimes in our own writing and our own presentations is that if you can batch cook stuff, if you can have, if you're prepared at home, big batch of brown rice, lentils,

garbanzo beans, of brown rice, lentils, garbanzo beans, pinto beans, black beans, salad greens already ready, sliced up fruit, whatever the case is, you can just mix and match right there. You can make a different theme. Right, those just provide the foundation for a million different kinds of food. Because what happens if you don't have that preparation?

I'm hungry, I gotta run to a restaurant real quick. I gotta order something to be delivered at my door. I just need to eat this frozen food that's for the microwave that's in the freezer because I need these chips right now. Corn chips, I need the salt, the sugar, the fat, I need something. So we can avoid that.

And that's one of the big downfalls too. Like chef AJ says, talking about junk food, if it's in your house, it's in your mouth. If you can be a little prepared and plant-based athletes are no different. In fact, maybe even more so. If you can be prepared nutritionally, man, you get your pre-workout food is right there.

Your fruit or whatever the case is. Your post-workout food is right there, it's ready. You don't need to go, because when you're hungry, you're gonna spend extra money. You're gonna buy the wrong things. And you're gonna say, man, I just worked for 90 minutes on that workout. And now this is what I have to show for it. I'm gonna load up on all this stuff

that's not health promoting. Yeah, in a macro sense, if you talk to Dan Buettner, he'll tell you that the way that we're gonna shift people towards healthier lifestyles is by changing their environments. You gotta create bike lane, like on a kind of urban city community level, you have to create systems and structures

that make the healthy choice, the easy and convenient choice. And I think we can all do this in a micro sense in our homes with our refrigerators, or to the extent that you remove the unhealthy choices from arm's reach, and you always have the healthy choice available to you. It just makes it so much more likely

that you're gonna end up eating better because that's what's right in front of you. Think I heard the guy who wrote Atomic Habits. Oh, James Clear. Yeah, on your podcast saying he puts the beer in the very back of the fridge. And like, it's almost cliche, this like just change your environment,

just kind of don't have it in your house. But that stuff is so effective. I really think like, if you can just design your environment on this, in this micro way, we're putting Leo Babauta trick, but the sticky notes up on the mirror that reminds you of the do your daily meditation,

because so much we just forget. Those little environmental changes, I think are way more powerful than the kind of willpower. Like I'm gonna remember to do this. Sure, they seem hokey, but they actually really work. Right. Well, and habits change as a result of consistency. And the way that you say it

and the way that Sonia Looney says it in the book, I love it. I actually use this word now. I used to think consistency was the most important word in the world. And now I like the expression showing up. If you just show up every day, and that's with exercise,

that's taking your dogs for a walk. That's with contributing to your environment. It's with nutrition, it's with exercise. Like there's days we don't want to, right? We don't wanna go to the gym. There's a basketball game I'd rather watch, or there's Twitter comments I'd rather chime into, or something on the internet I wanna do.

But if you can just show up day after day, and that's nutritionally too, keeping the right food in the right place, but also exercise. You know, this was, how much of a test was this past year, right? With quarantine and pandemic stuff. And what are you gonna do within your capacity

to overcome that? What kind of habits can you develop? Because as Matt and I both know, and we've written a lot about this, willpower and discipline can only take you so far. But the way you say it, Rich, showing up, like you mentioned something like just put your shoes on or put them by the door and go outside.

You don't feel like a run, but give yourself five minutes. That could turn into 50 minutes, right? That's one thing I think, I hope resonates with a lot of people. Well, you've got a lot of stuff in the book about that, having an accountability partner and like setting goals. Like it's, so you have all the science, you've got all these athlete testimonials and stories,

and then you kind of have this self-help piece about, you know, how you actually implement all of these things in your life in an effective way. And then you've got the recipe. So it's like, it's all in there, right? Like the whole- And the day to life. And the life's actually-

And the life's actually- That's right. We're both laughing because Matt and I are both obsessed with self-help stuff. Oh, you are? We just are. Like that's the tone of a lot of it in the book is that you have to have this belief in self.

You have to have gone through some of your own struggles, either internally or externally and come out better on the other side. That stuff is just so powerful. And we're both just big fans of that kind of personal development and self-help. And so we couldn't help but put that tone in there. And then some of the fun things like the recipes

you'll notice they're all contributed by the athletes. It's not my way of eating, it's not Matt's way of eating. We're not telling you to subscribe to a certain, you know, dogma. It's, this is what, you know, James Wilkes has for breakfast, you know. This is what these people are actually eating. Yeah, this is what these Olympic athletes

and what Julia Murray eats, you know. And there's so much variety in there. There's something for everybody. Well, on that subject of kind of day in the life, look, over the course of the history of this podcast, it's tipped very heavily towards the endurance athlete in many ways. And we've had lots of runners and plant,

it's like, here's how I do it. And I have had strength athletes on, I've had Nehemiah on, I had Patrick Baboumian on a while back, but I think it would be good to spend a few minutes talking about how you do it, Robert, if somebody is listening to this and they're like, I love Rich, but he's like, he does this ultra stuff. Like, I just wanna go on the gym,

go into the gym and put on some mass and get stronger. Like how does Robert do it? Yeah, I think, potatoes are your friend, potatoes, yams, sweet potatoes. These are the kind of foods like, so I look at things and I wrote quite a bit about this in the book about calorie density and nutrient density, basically, you know, looking at the nutrients per calorie, but also focusing on those calorie rich foods. Like Matt was talking about, if you're going to put on some mass, you know, you got to

have the nut butters, you've got to have the legumes, the grains, nuts and seeds themselves in some capacity, You've got to have the calories there. And so that's what I focus on. I mean, for me, it's exciting to be around, to weigh around 220 pounds as someone who was, as a teenager was always aspiring to be like this pro wrestler guy. And to now maintain that and have the ability to lift some heavy weights, it starts with understanding what your true calorie needs are. You know, I use the Harris Benedict equation, the Harris-Benedict equation, the Harris-Benedict calculator,

which factors based on your gender, age, height, weight, and very importantly, your activity level, how many calories you expend every day. If you don't have that knowledge, you're just guessing about how much to eat in order to put on mass or to lose weight. But- Where do you find that calculator?

It's online. Is that an actual calculator? Yeah, you just Google it. Yeah, and it just says, put in your gender. I saw it in the book, but then I was, I'd never heard of that before. Yeah, it's the most accurate tool that I know of. And having talked to lots of other people

and written a few other books, it's always something that I reference. Because yeah, you put in your gender, age, height, weight, and then you're very specific about your activity level. I train five days a week with weight training for 60 minutes at a time with this level of intensity. And it says, okay, based on all these factors, you're, you know, six foot tall, 220 pound male who's 41 and active five days a week for an hour, plus dog walks or whatever, you're going to be

burning 3,124 calories every day. So what do I do with that information? Well, then I can use, I can use MyFitnessPal or Cronometer or some other platform to document my actual calorie intake, at least for a few days to kind of see where I'm at and say, okay, Robert, you need to consume 3,124 calories just to maintain weight. You wanna put on a little mass? Okay, let's go 3,500 calories or more, closer to 3,500, 4,000.

And over time, adaptation kicks in combined with resistance weight training. So over a course of a week or two weeks, three weeks, four weeks, months down the road, a year from now, that's how you put on mass. That's how you lose weight. That's how you have to be in either a calorie surplus or deficit and be aware of it

and be supporting that with an exercise program that's conducive to achieving that result. Nobody gains weight overnight. Nobody loses weight overnight. It's deliberate actions every single day in either a surplus or deficit. And it doesn't just mean either eat more or eat less. It can also mean exercise more.

If I wanna lean out a little bit, like coming on the ritual podcast, I get on the Stairmaster for 45 minutes. I'm gonna, I can still eat the same, but now I've burned a lot more calories, right? Than I was before. So really to try to briefly or succinctly answer your question,

I understand the calories that I need to consume every day and then I eat those specific foods. So like I mentioned, a breakfast could be like an oatmeal with berries and walnuts. I'm a big fan of fruit where I might eat a few bananas at a time for breakfast. I stay hydrated. Our bodies are mostly water.

That's important, especially kind of the bigger or more active you are. You just gotta keep the water intake high. And then I eat my favorite foods. Like I mentioned, potatoes being a huge one. And those can be mashed potatoes, they could be fries, they could be baked, they could be in any capacity. And then my favorite food really is a burrito bowl. And so that's why I have those batch,

rice and beans and all that, that I can add avocado, tomato, lettuce, salsas, mushrooms, peppers, and just heat it up. And I could do this every day. And then I like the international cuisine for dinner or post-workout. And I'm very fortunate. My wife, Karen, makes incredible food

and is very generous with, you know, she makes a lot of our meals. She knows I lack a lot of skill in the kitchen. And sometimes I lack the discipline as well, where my mind or my time is spent elsewhere. So I'm very fortunate to have a wife who helps me in that capacity. You're 41 now, how old are you?

41, so have you noticed any changes in your metabolism or the way that your body kind of responds to the training or the food that you're eating? I wish I didn't have to admit it. I have a reason I'm going here, but yeah. Well, I wish I didn't have to admit it, but I was actually telling'm going here, but yeah. Well, I wish I didn't have to admit it, but I was actually telling my wife that right before I flew out here, I'm like, man,

I had it in my head, cause I knew there'd be like videos and photos that I'm gonna be ripped on the ritual podcast. You're too in your head dude, you look great. And I worked hard, but I was also at the same time trying to maintain this like 220 pound body frame, which obviously has some body fat on it too. And I was using the Stairmaster and I was doing at the same time trying to maintain this like 220 pound body frame, which obviously has some body fat on it too.

And I was using the StairMaster and I was doing fasted cardio, all this stuff I used to do in my twenties and thirties. And I wasn't seeing the results quite as fast. And I feel like there's a couple of factors at play. One, stress and anxiety, which I suffer a lot from, including coming on the show, weeks of worry and- Oh, come on. And I mean, this is true, including coming on the show, you know, weeks of worry and-

Oh, come on. And that's the truth, that's just the truth. And so that impacts me a little bit. And then, you know, working with Vegan Strong, this nonprofit that I'm part of and launching a book that we hope, you know, becomes the best seller. It's time consuming and then taking care of, you know, two dogs and making sure I hang out with my wife

and make sure I'm social in some capacity. The discipline has been there. I'm still getting a lot of good exercise in, but sometimes the results have been a little bit slower recently, it feels like, but at the same time, if I get in the right lighting, you know, I take my little photos you see on Instagram with me in the mirror and I'm the biggest, yeah, there's some of the best shape I've ever been in.

Everybody's seen him. What the heck? Everybody's seen him. That's a Robert Chisholm. I know, that's your thing, dude. I'm surprised you didn't wear a tank top. Yeah, my smiling thumbs up and the side pose. But obviously I'm playing to my strengths.

You know, I focus on the muscle groups that look the best. It's all part of this ego thing that Matt and I talked about for an hour and a half at dinner last night of trying to overcome and let go of some of those things of who we were a decade ago versus who we are now and where we are within the movement 10 years ago compared to where we are now and that wrestling match. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

No, I relate to that a lot. Like I, you know, I'm coming up on 55 pretty quick here. And one of the things that I've done during quarantine is something I haven't done in a very long time, which is to focus on strength. And I got back into the gym and I have no problem putting on mass. Like it happens like that for me,

like almost too quickly, but I was bulking up and then I just didn't like how I, I felt good, like I felt strong, but I just felt bulky, you know, and I've kind of backed off a little bit. It's fine if I pair that with some pretty decent volume in terms of my endurance training, cause I can maintain being lean,

but I'm not able to train that much right now because of all the things that I have going on right now. And so I've kind of pivoted back towards the running and the cycling and things like that. Cause I just felt like I was like, sort of feel like the Michelin man a little bit. So I guess what I'm saying is that, I noticed that my, like I can't shift gears

in the way that I could maybe 10 years ago in terms of like, oh, I wanna put bulk on, but I want, and then I wanna lean out. Like I can still do all those things, but I need to bank more time in order to achieve those goals versus the way that it was maybe a decade ago. I've noticed exactly, with the quarantine period, like a lot of people I put on,

I did all kinds of cooking, like it was crazy. Like I loved it, I had so much fun, like with all that extra family time, but like just started eating junk food. And I kept telling myself, well, I eat a vegan diet. So it's not really a problem. Like it's just, I can't gain. And I always said, like, I don't really put on mass or get fat or anything, but I had turned 40 a couple

months ago and it's just a little bit different now. Uh, and a lot of things are different. I don't sleep like I used to. Uh, I I've had to like do all the, you know, get the blackout curtains and get the, the older thing where it cools your mattress at night so that you don't wake up. And like, I'm sorry to like do like wacky sleep stuff. Yeah, like all the things that just came easy naturally. Right, like you can do anything. Now you gotta work for them. Exactly, so now I'm like,

well, I don't wanna eat a meal too close to bedtime cause then I'll mess up my sleep. And partly it's cause now I'm paying attention to the data, which drives me nuts. But you got the aura ring on you. I got need this data, I can't lose this. But then the data can fuck with your head too. Oh my gosh, I mean, it really can.

I think it's a good thing, but I think we haven't quite figured out how to best live with it yet. So anyway, I just think, yeah, the changes are, changes are a little bit slower to happen. But for me, it's like, it's kind of been a reason to like get back into it. Cause it's like, suddenly I can't just go on autopilot and say, well, I eat vegan,

so I don't need to think about it. And I was falling into that for a while. And then I actually did some heart health numbers and like, they weren't all that good because I've been eating the impossible burgers with all the soccer driving and whatever else, just potato chips and just things. And like, I just kept telling myself, well, it's vegan, so I'll be fine.

Cause I'm like, you know, vegan athlete guy. But seeing that, and it's not like they were scary numbers, but it was like, wow, this is not a trajectory I want to keep going down. So it's been a really like big boost for me to say like, wow, I'm 40 now. It's a little bit different era for me.

And when I hit 50, it'd be really cool if I was like in totally great control and stuff. So I've really gotten reinvigorated in the past few months for all this stuff. Let's talk a little bit about advocacy. We alluded earlier to, you know,

sort of some infighting and the vegan movement. And you know, there's a lot of sniping going on. And I spent a lot of time thinking about like how to be an advocate for the things that I believe in and things that I care about. And if you take like the plant-based athlete movement as an example, you'll see a spectrum of different strategies from the super hardcore animal rights advocate

who is taking no prisoners to the very gentle approach, Matt, that I think you've adopted. And that is kind of in tune with your constitution. Like it just feels very authentic to you. If I had to say I'm more, you know, in your kind of side of that spectrum. And I tend to think of it as just trying to be an optimal living example of the values

and the ideals that I care about. But I think it is really important to be mindful about how we communicate these values to do it in a way that it connects and resonates with, you know, as many people as possible. So how do you, like Robert, how do you think about that? It almost sounds cliche, but I like the expression that I'm in constant pursuit of the best version of myself.

But that's true. Like that really is true because I got into this because I wanted to make a difference in the world around me. I wanted to make a difference with the farm animals that I was around. And later I wanted to inspire people. And I really truly wanted and want to make a difference.

And whether that's because it makes me feel significant or makes me feel fulfilled or that my life has purpose because I'm significant in the life of somebody else, even someone who just read a book and said my life changed because of that, that means something to me. And I don't know if that's a selfish thing or an ego thing, but that's how I conduct myself.

Whereas in my 20s, it was more about, I'm the new Tiger Woods of the vegan bodybuilding world. I'm the best thing that's come to this movement. Ego driven versus mission driven. But that was also the time. I was in my 20s. I think we've all gone through some of these phases where I wanted the magazine covers. I wanted the TV stuff.

I wanted the newspapers. I wanted the microphone. And now I realize that there's so many messengers out there. And so elevating all these other athletes who are just in many cases, better representatives as athletes, you know, they perform better in their sport. They have better results.

Whether they have a smaller audience or bigger audience, but just giving them an amplified platform to just showcase, you know, what they're doing is something that really means a lot to me now in my advocacy. I've never been one. I've participated in protests and stuff, but I'm not good at it. This is not my personality. Confrontational stuff is, I know of some people, I wish I were more like that. You know, I think including my wife, I wish I was just more assertive in those kinds of things, but I'm just not, I'm not. And I'm much more of what can I do? What's the best use of my time to create the most change? And that's where writing came from.

Like I, that's where, that's why I wanted a book like this. I mean, it took a lot of manifesting, so to speak, to get a hardcover book like this, you know, to self-publish books for a decade and be on this pursuit since I was in third grade and said, someday I'm going to be an author. That's a platform for me. I think I'm a better writer than I am a speaker. I'm better at that than I am at talking about animal rights. Even if I feel it inside, I'm not as great as a communicator, as others who can just articulate their thoughts and feelings better.

Watch like those Earthling Ed videos. And it looks like he just naturally like is able to just pontificate, in the most eloquent way on these issues. Yeah, and then there's Joey Carbstrong and plenty of other people are just, that's like their strength, you know? And so what I've tried to use as my experience,

I mean, how many people have been a plant-based athlete for a quarter century? And along that journey have gained a hundred pounds and have been able to have all these different experiences. Cause that's one of the arguments against the plant-based diet. Oh, you'll do it for a year or two and then you'll fail. Or there's no longevity in this.

Or show me someone who's been doing it for 20 years. Well, hi, I'm here. He put on all his mass, you know, when he was eating animal products. The frame was already there from a lifetime of eating animal products. Absolutely not the case. There's so many, you know, yeah,

like shots that get fired over that kind of thing. And so I figured there's something maybe unique about that experience and I can share that. And then with this new book, it was an opportunity to share all those other stories from people you haven't heard of, you know, Caitlin Cook or Orla Walsh or Sharon Feichman or Jahina Malik, who's been vegan since birth

and is a professional bodybuilder on the highest level, the IFBB Pro. And she, along with her other siblings, like four other siblings, been vegan since birth and be able to tell those stories. Like that is part of my advocacy is I'm a storyteller and I like it. I just embrace that,

that whether it's through audio like this or video or writing, that's how I communicate a message is through stories. And I've got my own and everyone has their own story to share. And if I can help other people share their stories, then that's where I feel like I've contributed to the movement.

Yeah, I would agree with that. I mean, I think both you guys and Matt, everything that you've done with No Meat Athlete, I mean, it's really, when I go to the site and I didn't say this at the outset, but I've been visiting your website from the beginning. Like when I was learning and you were starting and I would go and you'd have these very helpful blog posts

that I'm sure from the early days still get traffic. They're just like, how do I start? You know what I mean? Those things are like evergreen content, but you've mastered meeting people where they're at. Like you're just, it's this welcome mat. Hey everybody, come on in. Like, let me hold your hand.

Let me guide you through this. Like there's no, this is a judgment-free space where this beautiful community. Yeah, I mean, that was, it was the only way I could imagine doing it. Like I just, that's the opposite of that is what repelled me for a long time. And finally I said, I'm gonna do this no matter what.

And I said, I just wanna be the opposite of this sort of force that made it seem like this scary, weird fringe thing. I just wanted it to be cool. And like, you're not gonna be judged if you're not perfect yet. Yeah. You know, it's fine.

Like, I don't know. It's just, that's been my thing. And it's, and like Robert said, like being an example, that wasn't really the intention, but I realized when like once I qualified for Boston and then got into the 50, a hundred mile races, like people started viewing me as that. And then I started saying, okay, well I can be that as well,

but I'm not gonna tell anyone ever that this is what you should do, because I don't know what you should do. Like you know that. But your site and everything that you do isn't this cult of personality around you. It's about the community. No, it's absolutely not.

And for a while, it got to be about me when I was doing those races. And I think I got mixed up in my head as like what it was about a little bit. But then once I ran my 100 mile, my motivation for running like just disappeared. Like I just lost like that Boston and then that. And I was like, I don't have any reason to go do it.

And it's not like I- I proved what I needed to prove to myself. Right. It's not like I had mastered that by any means. Like there was, I didn't even, I think I ran 28 or 29 hours. It wasn't a fast hundred. Like I could have certainly done much,

had set new goals. And, but for whatever reason, like I had done this thing that I thought was impossible. And then my motivation just went away when that went. So like once that happened, I realized I was like, wow, like I can't really be an example right now at this stage in my life. So I need to sort of step aside and like find other writers.

And then at the same time, I got into like the entrepreneurship side of it and said like, what other businesses can I go do? And I met a partner named Matt Tolman, who's like just really kind of helped us reach new levels. And it's been awesome in the past few years with what we've done. And we've reached so many more people now

with that new approach. And so like, but I guess as I've, as I realized that it is not at all about me and I've also gone through this thing now where like I'm starting to make my way back into fitness and health and like putting it in the very front of my mind, not just for my kids, but actually for me again, I'm starting to like,

kind of come back and do more writing and stuff like that. So it feels very good now to like come at it now as an example, I hope of someone who's like, you know, just really thriving and doing great in this like sort of next phase. Not gonna be setting PRs, cause I just, this is not on my, I'm sure I could, but it's just not something I wanna be doing.

Well, I appreciate the honesty and the transparency there. I think it's important to be intellectually honest and rigorous about what we know and what we don't know. And I don't like how certain people who are part of this movement kind of overstate the case, because I don't think it's in service or in service of the broader movement, because you're basically exposing yourself

to be criticized or attacked because you feel so strongly or have such an attachment, or perhaps you're coming from an animal ethics perspective, this proneness to overstate the health implications of this diet, I think causes more problems than benefits. And I found the scientific analysis in the book to be just that in the sense that it is rigorous. You're not making claims that are unsubstantiated.

You're quick to point out, we still need more research here, or this is what we don't know. And I really think that that is the way forward if you wanna really advocate for this in a sustainable substantive way. Well, and we knew that was the approach we wanted to take. And especially we had our eyes on Dr. Michael Greger

to write the foreword for a long time. He's been a big inspiration to both of us. And so we knew it had to be evidence-based. And then having the opportunity to talk with dozens or either in person or through email, dozens of experts, registered dieticians, doctors, many of the people we both know and love, Brenda Davis, Dr. Clapper, so many others, Campbell Esselstyn.

It just, it felt like that was the right approach to take with this book, especially because so many of our other books have been kind of memoir type approach or like my philosophy, which is kind of unsubstantiated. It's just what worked for me. Look, here's how I built a hundred pounds, you know. But this was a different approach,

more like grown up approach that this was like our, you know, this is our kind of a return for both of us in kind of a way where we took a little bit of time, whether it was with our families or taking a backseat from like the blogs being about us or the websites being about us and having that time to reflect and watch how the movement has grown

over the past decade especially, and then come together as longtime friends and with really this endurance platform, strength platform and two people have built these relatively popular websites and say, let's merge here and tell a really compelling story because the plant-based movement is ready for it. It's ready for this kind of story.

In canvassing all the research that went into the book, the scientific evidence-based research on plant-based diet efficacy in terms of being an athlete, obviously there's some gaps. Is there a study that when you're doing all of this, was there ever a moment where you're like, why isn't there a study about this? Like, here's what I really would like to know.

Why hasn't anybody done that study? Yeah, and I've actually talked to Colin Campbell directly about that. And it was really, it was based on some of my own experiences. So why Dr. Campbell, why is this working for me on a low protein diet to be the biggest and strongest, and even in the best photos,

if you wanna say aesthetically that I've ever been, can we get people to do this? Like do a low protein muscle building. When you say low protein, you're not really meaning like, you just mean adequate, like do a low protein muscle building. When you say low protein, you're not really meaning like, you just mean adequate, like meaning your daily. So I'm talking like 10% of my calorie intake coming from protein, it's somewhere around 90 grams or so.

Which actually isn't low, it's just where you're supposed to be. It's low in comparison. Low in comparison to the culture. To the culture, the bodybuilding, the muscle building culture, it's low as a percentage. Many people consume 20, 30, 40% of their calories from protein as bodybuilders and weightlifters.

It's low as a total number of grams. Many people consume 200, 300 grams of protein, myself included 10 years ago. And I'm doing like 90, 75, 78 grams a day and maintaining a mass of 200 plus pounds and close to 220. So I talked to Colin Campbell about that. And I'm just, I'm so intrigued by it

because I've experienced it firsthand. And I feel like it's, I know I'm not special. It's not that, oh, Robert's got this great work ethic. I mean, we already know that's already been exposed that sometimes I just don't have it and I'd rather do other things or I've got to write a book or I'm interested in a basketball game

or I'm not always super, super consistent. So, but why is that working for me compared to when I was younger, had greater levels of testosterone, had more ambition, more enthusiasm, more passion for competitive bodybuilding, I was a super fan going to all the Olympia and all the shows,

but why now later in my life, when I lift recreationally, casually for the enjoyment of it, am I bigger, stronger? And in many cases, let's say look better aesthetically on a low protein diet without protein supplementation. How does that work from a scientific nutrition, like a nutritional standpoint? And I'd like to see some of that. So you went to him and asked him that, what did he say?

You know, there's no study. I mean, he's all about data and research. Well, we don't know. Right. We don't know. And I said, I even said, cause I don't know. Garth Davis would be another candidate. Well, he's not a research scientist,

but somebody who could perhaps spearhead or create, you know, a situation in which a study like that could be conducted. I was even saying, because I don't know how a lot of this stuff works, like the actual scientific study, I said, like, can we do something here, Dr. Campbell? I mean, he's enthusiastic.

He obviously has endorsed really all of my work and he knows that I came to this conclusion based on his program from the Center for Nutrition Studies. He knows why I adopted a low protein diet or what we can call an adequate protein diet, I guess. But I mean, I would love to participate in something if it were available, but I don't know. And I don't know how many people are willing to do that.

So basically the way you would style it is you'd get a group of people and you'd put them in the gym. You'd separate them, you'd put them on strict diets, one with a higher protein and the other on more of your protocol, and then just calibrate their gains over a 30 day period or something like that, right? And I think that kind of thing has happened somewhat, right?

With the plant protein versus animal protein studies of people. Right. But it's always unclear like, well, what exactly do these people eat? It's like controlling the variables. And they're also going for that threshold of, we wanna maximize the 1.6 grams of protein per kilogram for true muscle building.

And so it's still on the higher end of protein intake, even if it's plant versus animal protein, including the most recent study we referenced in the book. So that's what I'm saying. I'd like to see on the lower protein side and just see how it works. If your calories, the calories can be the same, but get more complex carbohydrates in there

or a few more fats in there from these really nutrient dense sources. And let's see what the real difference is because I feel like it's something I experienced for myself. I talked to Nima about it and he was intrigued and started to apply some of that for himself as well. And I feel like maybe that could be the next frontier in plant-based athleticism, just shifting our focus

more on complex carbohydrates versus protein obsession. Yeah, yeah. Do you think that's what it'll take though for the mainstream athletes to like really adopt this where it's like that's now the standard diet or do you think it's just gonna take one superstar and someone's gonna follow it and then suddenly it will be the booming thing.

It's like that whole industry versus academia thing. Like maybe in theory, this is gonna be better but until we see that everyone's doing it because it's the gold standard now for nutrition and it's the way to get paid the most, honestly in your sports on this mainstream level. I don't know. I just, and I, but we're seeing so many

begin to be sprinkled in all the different sports that are doing that. I think that's not far off from happening. Yeah, I think it's both. I think that's a great question. I think it's a bottom up and a top down situation, right? From the bottom up perspective, you need this groundswell movement of people

who are inspired by the books and the YouTube videos and the podcast to give it a try in their own daily lives. And then you need the superstar athlete who ends up doing it and crushes it in a way that defies all the kind of poo-pooers who say, oh, well, that person's a freak of nature, or it's a one-off, or this is an outlier, or they were already great before.

It's like, you're gonna need a critical mass of really elite high-performance athletes across a diversity of sports, I think, before you get to a cultural tipping point, we're moving towards that, you know, but right now when you look, when you canvas like professional sports and you have a bunch of these people in the book,

but we haven't reached critical mass, we're being honest. Like there's a couple people here and there. And to be fair, it's a lot to ask if you're getting paid millions of dollars a year and your entire life is premised upon you performing at the highest level in your given sport to say, hey, I want you to throw out everything you ever thought

you knew about nutrition and try this other thing. Like the risk analysis doesn't make sense for that person to roll the dice until there's enough people that create that critical mass and a feeling of security in, you know, starting to segue into that direction. And that may never happen. Like we, I'm kind of glad we came back to this.

And you mentioned not overstating the point in there because I only realized just this past week as I was reading the book more and thinking more about it, that like, this isn't really about, at least I don't think for either one of, for me or Robert, it's not about like convincing top athletes that this is the way to get better at your sport.

Because we don't know that. Like what I think the hypothesis here, the premise is that this is a viable alternative to the other diets now. Like maybe the steady state we're gonna reach is that there's in pro sports, there's the paleo, the keto, I don't know about keto, but there's in pro sports, there's the paleo, the keto, I don't know about keto, but there's a paleo,

there's the vegans or plant-based. And it's not that one dominates because maybe all these work for short-term sports performance, short-term meaning five, 10, 15 years. I think this one, the plant-based one is the one that's gonna make those people way happier and healthier after their careers are over. But I don't know, but I the one that's gonna make those people way happier and healthier after their careers are over.

But I don't know, but I wonder if that's where- I mean, I would state it a little bit more stridently than that to say that not only is it a viable alternative, I think there are advantages to it that outweigh other protocols, particularly for athletes who are approaching the twilight of their career. When you look at Tom Brady,

like now Tom Brady is never gonna say that he's a plant-based athlete or that he's a vegan. And he's not, you know, technically, but the guy eats a very plant forward diet for the most part. There's some animal products in there, but the guy's essentially eating a plant based, you know, quote unquote based diet. He's crushing it in a way that no other athlete

in his position ever has. People are paying attention. He gets made fun of for it at the same time, but you cannot deny the incredible results that this guy is getting. So when you're in that twilight space and you're starting to get injured more and you just can't get out of bed

in the way that you used to, I think there's a receptivity to this way of eating. Those people are suddenly looking for that extra edge and a way to extend their career another season or two. And I think those are the people that are the ones who are jumping on board here. And I think it just, it builds from there. And you know who embodies that more than anyone

to me right now is Chris Paul. Chris Paul, I had a chance to just meet him briefly, talk briefly with him in person, but he said those exact things. You look at his quotes and he talked about how he adopted a plant-based diet and within a short amount of time, a couple months into it, where's the pain and stiffness I used to have in the morning, you know, when he would wake up. And you look at his career, he was an amazing player and then was off the all-star team for

two or three seasons in a row, adopted a plant-based diet, talks about it enthusiastically, returned as an all-star every season since, every team he's got on has gotten better. He's nearly an MVP candidate this year, he's probably in the top 10. And he talks about this Renaissance career that he's having. He brought his athleticism back. He got his first dunk, it sounds silly,

but he's a smaller guy. He's maybe a little bit taller than me. He got his first dunk. It sounds silly, but he's a smaller guy. He's maybe a little bit taller than me. He got his first dunk ever in a game. It was his two-handed alley-oop dunk from Russell Westbrook in the All-Star game. It was awesome. Like it was like a highlight for me. What more proof do we need, right?

No, but really he's a prominent NBA basketball player. And the fact that JaVale McGee, met him briefly also, won a championship last year, when he was a major player on the Lakers and has been plant-based for years now. And DeAndre Jordan. And there was a time in the early, one of the early editions of this book

where one third of the entire Brooklyn Nets team was plant-based. Now some of those guys got traded. Wilson Chandler's no longer there. Garrett Temple's no longer there. Kyrie, I hope is still a hundred percent. Although I'm not quite sure he's a hundred percent vegan. Now-

The Redskins had a thing going on for a while too. They did, 2017 and the Titans did. And around the same time, 2017 as well with Derek Morgan. And of course, Arian Foster and early in Tony Gonzalez. Arian Foster, well, he's retired, but also he's not, he kind of moved away from it. But he did it exclusively for a little while. He was in touch with Forks Over Knives on a regular basis.

And he was the number one running back that season in numerous categories, including rushing attempts and touchdowns and then like that. But I think, I mean, Chris Paul is a great example of these twilight years of he's playing his best basketball ever later in his career. Serena Williams is another one who's just dominant. Zdeno Charo in the place for the Bruins, he's crushing it.

I don't actually know him. Yeah, you gotta get on this guy. I think I heard about him from the game changes. I followed him on Instagram, but just like- He's killing it. There's so many athletes out there now doing it. Messi during the season. Yeah, Messi is apparently,

I haven't been able to confirm this, but that's what appears to be. And he's kind of on the down slope of his career. Still playing great, but- Lewis Hamilton. Alex Morgan. I mean, Novak Djokovic. There's a lot.

There's a lot of great athletes. We mentioned a bunch of them. And even some who maybe are not doing it now, like Mike Tyson, but again, I talked with him in person. He was doing it for years and he got so many benefits from it. He lost a whole bunch of weight and fell all this stuff. And then I think he kind of crept back into,

now I'm making my comeback. I'm fighting for millions of dollars, basically for charity now. And he went back to some of that desire for animal protein or something. But he was in vegan campaigns for years and he credits a lot of that to his health resurgence from a plant-based diet.

And many elite athletes have. And we're hoping, yeah, we're certainly not there. We're not at some sort of tipping point or critical mass. And we wish we had more names to add in this book. Sure, but I think if you go back 15 years and had to guess where the culture would be, where it is right now, I think we've exceeded any expectation that any of us had in terms of mainstream

adoption. No question about it. Adoption. No question about it. Yep. I wanna round this out with one last thread, which is another thing you talk about in the book. And I think it's really important and something that I know a lot of people who are playing around with this lifestyle contend with,

which is dealing with an unreceptive social circle. We talked about it in the context of your kids, but a lot of people, I think we underestimate the impact of just navigating people in our lives in terms of the impact that that has on the lifestyle choices that we make. Like, just look, it's healthy, just do it.

But then when you're at the dinner party or you gotta go do this thing, it's just easier to like, you know, go along to get along. And it's harder to say, no, I'm doing this for myself and I'm carving this out and this is who I am. So you mean standing up for yourself, not trying to push it on your relatives? Right, like how do you, you know you kind of remain true to your own values

and also manage the naysayers in your life or the people that are kind of trying to talk you out of doing this thing that you wanna explore for yourself. I mean, I think it depends so much on the person, of course, for me, like if I was going to a dinner party, I would, the last thing on my mind would be the idea that maybe I could convert someone here into this. Yeah, no, I'm not talking about that.

I'm just talking about feeling comfortable in your own skin. Sure. But I'm only making the point that like, that's where I started, was saying, I'm not gonna be doing that. Cause some people do say as soon as they go vegan, that they wanna tell everyone and show their dinner, their family or whatever, that they also should do this.

Like just life tip, that doesn't work out. It doesn't, no, it doesn't, but people still think it will. Stop doing that. Right. So I started there, like everything else, openness, like don't show up at the party and say, hey, by the way, I'm trying to eat this plant-based diet.

I'm not going to eat what you're making, but communicating in advance, obviously, by the way, I'm trying to eat this plant-based diet. I'm not gonna eat what you're making, but communicating in advance, obviously, eating ahead of time, which I think is kind of common sense, but I just never expected anyone to cater to me. Like I just, I was never gonna show up and say, hey, this is what I'm doing now.

Like I expect there was gonna be this stuff there for me. You need to rearrange everything you're doing to meet my- Right, right. And so that combined with a healthy amount of like being willing to laugh at it. Cause like, you know, my uncle would at one point pretty early in me being vegetarian, not yet vegan, I don't think,

like at a big 4th of July thing, he like the whole family was, I mean, probably 30 people there. And he brought out some lettuce on a plate. Everyone was eating crabs. And he said, hey Matt, here's your dinner. Yeah, of course. And I mean, I guess a different person might get upset

and make a big scene or something, but I just laughed. I mean, like, I don't know what else to do. I'm not gonna win that situation, I don't think. And I personally think, and I know people disagree with me on this, but like, I think by laughing there, you really kind of break the pattern of someone expecting you to get offended

and expecting that their joke's gonna really have a big impact on you. And if instead you can also kind of break the pattern of someone expecting you to get offended and expecting that their joke is going to really have a big impact on you. And if instead you can also kind of laugh or like make some other joke that just goes to another level. I would just double down, like just be like, like go way overboard in terms of how happy you are that he went out of his way to give you the piece of life. Right. And I think that disarms people and just, I think that makes them say, hey, wait a minute, maybe not everyone, not all of them are these militant people who are out to change. And then of course, like if you're also happening to drop 30 pounds or happening to start training

for a half marathon, whether or not that's actually what your diet has caused you to do. But if it's just like, that's your method of saying, hey, I'm gonna demonstrate that this is a good way to eat or that this is working for me, I'm gonna do this. Even if it's, like I said, if it's unrelated to the effect your diet is having on you, I think, again, it just comes back

to that being an example thing that I think that's the most powerful thing you can do to make people see it as legitimate for you. And then also probably in the back of their minds are considering, should they also do it? And for me, I never forget why I got into this in the first place. That always compels me.

So I'm not going to make sacrifices or fall into some sort of trap where I'm tempted to consume this or that because that's the only thing available. And I've been flying from here to Australia for 17 hours and I'm hungry or whatever the case is, I just always remember why I came to a plant-based diet or vegan lifestyle.

And that really compels me in all the actions that I do. So like Matt, I also kind of laugh things off. I'm not combative with people because I realize that's what they're trying to get out of me, including places like some of the awful places of the world are the internet. Twitter is a pretty awful place. YouTube comments might be maybe the worst place

on the internet, I'm not sure. But so I've heard, I mean, I just woke up to, here I am enthusiastic, I'm here to do the ritual podcast. I'm hanging out with Matt, our book is coming out. And I realized that I'm in some sort of Twitter thread that someone volunteered me to be part of as like, Robert's an example of how you can be big and strong. And they're kind of fighting an argument, but using me as their ammo. And so now all the comments are like negative about me, but you know, I can't let that bother me and I don't engage them. I just ignore all of that stuff. And that's what I do. You know,

I mean, I learned a long time ago from Dale Carnegie, the best way to win an argument is to avoid one. And that doesn't mean that's taking a step back for activism or anything like that. That's not how, at least not how I see it. But I see it, the people who are trying to do these deliberate acts or deliberate attacks or deliberately make fun of,

I just, I don't allow that to be an argument that I participate in, but in a more practical sense, what you're talking about, I'm actually dealing with right now. My wife and I recently moved to Fort Collins, Colorado about a year ago, and we've been in, we've had this pandemic going on. So just now, neighbors are starting to say,

yeah, come on over for some beers and barbecue and all this stuff. And I'm trying to figure out how to tell them that that's, maybe that won't work for me, but we're getting a grill. We're gonna, and we have all the beyond burgers and all that kind of stuff. And we're gonna kind of show them like our style. You should invite them over to your house first for like, hey, we're throwing a vegan barbecue.

Yeah. Be the head of the neighborhood. Everyone will love you. And what's funny is they already know about my book because I can't stop talking about it, of course. They all know I have this book out. You gotta check on Amazon and they all, and I'm wearing vegan on my shirt and they're like, yeah, come on over for barbecue and beer.

And they haven't made that connection yet that this plant-based book. It's not their job to make the connection though. Right, right. You could go over there and when they offer you a burger to say, no, thanks. Like you don their job to make the connection though. Right, right. You could go over there and when they offer you a burger to say, no thanks. Like you don't have to say anything more than that. You just be like, I'm good with this or whatever.

Right, it's just a new environment for me because I've always been known as kind of the vegan guy, whether it's in my family circle, relatives, in-laws, holidays, like, you know, that's been part of my identity since I was a kid, like I'm the vegan guy. So I've just been, I've just dealt with that, people knowing that, but now in a new city, new neighbors, new environment,

I kind of have to show people, I guess, who I am or- It's interesting to see you, I could see you're like, you're literally struggling in real time with this, but I think that's the relatable thing. I mean, that was the reason for the question, because I think people who are trying to make this switch have a lot of trepidation about how they're gonna deal with their neighbors or their friends or their relatives.

Like you've been living this for a very long time, but you've been doing it in a situation in which everybody's briefed on who you are. Yeah. But now you're standing in the shoes of the newcomer, so to speak, you know, who's trying to figure out how to be gracious and graceful while still, you know,

adhering to this thing that's important to you. Yeah, and it is a little bit new. I mean, it just happened recently on Easter. I went down, my brother was about an hour away with his wife and two kids, and they had some gathering there where a few neighbors came over and one of the neighbors was so nice.

He was just so friendly. He brought over some cinnamon rolls and he just really was insisting that we have them. And I just, you know, eventually my brother came out and said, oh, Robert's vegan, he's gonna have to pass. But like, that was kind of a new territory for me to have to politely decline. I'm not, you know, I don't have kids.

I'm not used to family gatherings. I don't, or you know, those kinds of things, kids parties or Easter egg hunting and all this. I'm just not in those situations. And so, I mean, I wasn't gonna eat it and I'm not tempted to, I was gonna come up with some sort of excuse or explanation or I just, I already ate, I'm good.

But you know, I'm going through some of that stuff now and it is, I don't know, it's like, I'm new again. It's just adorable how like you're getting all uncomfortable now, because like, this is the dilemma that, you know, anybody who's trying to do this experiences and you've been doing it for 25 years and you're like out of your depth.

Yeah. All of a sudden, it's funny. Yeah, it's, It's good though. It's a new adventure. Yeah, yeah. It's a new adventure. And also I'm not always plastering vegan on all my shirts. My wife tells me to wear something other than that

these days after, just always wearing that message everywhere I go. That's funny. Well, good you guys. I think we did it. How do you feel? I feel great. This is awesome.

Again. Very cool, man. I love you guys. I think this book is tremendous. It's quite an accomplishment. You guys should be very proud. And I really think that it's a go-to one-stop shop to answer every question you would ever have about how to crush it as a plant-based athlete.

You go deep into all the micronutrients and macronutrients and how to make it work, depending upon whether you're trying to be fast and strong or go all day, it's all in there. You got recipes and you even have some, a light sprinkling of self-help fairy dust in there for everybody, right? You guys should be super proud.

I'm proud of you guys. I can't wait for everybody to enjoy the book. It comes out June 15th, June 15th, available everywhere. Robert's not used to the book being available anywhere except in the trunk of his car. So this is new for him too. That is, that is, that is,

I'm already going to like my local Barnes and Noble to introduce myself. Hi. I'm sure you are. I know you well enough to know you're gonna, yeah. I see a lot of that in your near future. That, and that's what I'm already doing because this is so, this is so new for me. I don't see my books in stores. I've been an author for 10 years and this is so exciting.

And I wouldn't be here without Matt. I wanna say that I wouldn't be here without Matt as a coauthor to have a book on this scale with a major publisher that's in stores everywhere. And so I wanna thank you for that, Matt. Thank you, Robert. And I wouldn't be able to do that without all the people who actually trust me

and read my stuff. So thank you. Awesome. Thank you guys for having us on. Yeah, absolutely. Robert, you're due for this experience. Thank you. And what you guys for this experience. Thank you. And what you guys created is amazing. So awesome, everybody pick it up.

In the meantime, you can track these guys down. You can find Matt at nomeatathlete.com. What's the, just on Twitter, Instagram, what's the best place for people to find you? Yeah, veganbodybuilding.com and veganstrong.com, kind of doing both these days. Cool, and anywhere else people wanna talk to you? Lovecompliment.com kind of doing both these days. Cool. And anywhere else people want to talk to you. Lovecompliment.com is our supplement line,

which is very mindful brand of supplements. So cool. If you want to see silly flexing, Instagram's the place to find me. Yeah, right. That's true. And no meat athlete radio. You're like Doug handles, he's doing like a lot of that also.

So it's not always you there, but people can check that out. Like I said, it's doing like a lot of that also. So it's not always you there, but people can check that out. Like I said, it's not about me. You've scaled an enterprise beyond your personality. That's something I need to learn how to do. I don't know how to do it. But anyway, awesome you guys, best of luck. Thank you.

I'm at your service. Let me know how I can help and come back and talk to me again sometime. Thank you, Richard. Love to. Plants. Plant-based athlete. That's it for today. Thank you for listening.

I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com, where you can find the entire podcast archive, as well as podcast merch, my books, "'Finding Ultra, Voicing Change in the Plant Power Way,"

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which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo with additional audio engineering by Cale Curtis. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis with assistance by our creative director, Dan Drake. Portraits by Davy Greenberg, graphic and social media assets courtesy of Daniel Solis, Dan Drake. Portraits by Davy Greenberg, graphic and social media assets, courtesy of Daniel Solis, Dan Drake, and AJ Akpudiyete.

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