The Rich Roll Podcast - Damien Mander: The Vegan Sniper On How Women Are Winning The War On Big Game Poaching

Episode Date: January 29, 2019

You don't want to fuck with Damien Mander. The very definition of an alpha-male modern warrior, Damien is a former Australian Royal Navy Clearance Diver (the Australian equivalent of the Navy SEALS) and Special Operations Military Sniper for the Tactical Assault Group East, an elite direct-action and hostage-recovery unit. Post-military career, Damien spent years as a private military contractor in Iraq, where his duties included training the local police force in Baghdad. But after 12 tours, disillusionment rendered Damien's occupation no longer tenable. Burned out and cynical, an existential crisis precipitated a directionless walkabout. Seeking adventure, Damien ultimately found himself in Africa volunteering in the fight against big game poaching. Coming face-to-face with the horrors of this practice, an encounter with a pregnant wild buffalo viciously trapped and mortally injured by poachers basically changed Damien’s life – and sparked a new one altogether. Immediately thereafter, Damien began liquidating his personal assets, founded the International Anti-Poaching Federation (IAPF) and reinvented himself as an African wildlife crusader — a warrior leveraging his modern tactical warfare experience to advance the cause of animal welfare and environmental conservation to put an end to the barbaric practice that is big game poaching. Damien and the IAPF have had much success. But over time, Damien began to identify limitations in his highly militarized approach to solving the poaching problem. In 2017, this realization lead to his formation of Africa’s first armed, all-women anti-poaching unit. Dubbed the Akashinga (The Brave Ones), these incredible women have been incredibly successful at changing the way that animals are protected — arresting poachers without firing a single shot — and permanently changing the conservation landscape for the better. Damien's work has been featured in National Geographic, 60 Minutes, Animal Planet, Al Jazeera, Voice of America, Forbes & The Sunday Times. He is prominently featured in the upcoming James Cameron produced, vegan athlete documentary Game Changers. And I highly recommend everybody watch his incredible TED Talk, Modern Warrior. A riveting tale you won't want to miss, today Damien's relates his transformation from ‘man's man' meat-eating mercenary to hardcore animal conservationist to women's rights champion. His story is as extraordinary as it is inspiring. His work has completely changed the poaching and trophy hunting landscape. His heart is massive. And his example shifts the tectonic plates on how we think about masculinity and ecological responsibility in the modern age. It was an honor to spend time with Damien. He is a role model to me personally. A man I respect deeply. And a paradigm breaker if there ever was one. I sincerely hope you enjoy the exchange as much as I enjoyed having it. More than that, I hope it spurs you to action. To learn more and get involved, please visit IAPF.org For the visually inclined, you can watch our entire conversation on YouTube at bit.ly/damienmander419 and the podcast is now available on Spotify. Peace + Plants, Rich

The best decision I've ever made is to go vegan. You don't even have to get out of bed before you're doing something good for the environment and good for animals. And it's a really liberating feeling to know that because you can't look in the eyes of an animal and deny that that animal doesn't want the same thing as us. It wants safety, it wants shelter, it wants to live without suffering. It wants to live without, have to line up and walk into a slaughterhouse just like any other person would. And I think we're going to look back at some stage and be ashamed of what we've done as a species you know do you really want to be a person that pays somebody else to do something to

animals you're not willing to do yourself if we just take the time to reflect and have a think about what's on our plate and where did that come from and what did it go through to get there. Anyone with any conscience, we wouldn't want that happening to their own child, their own mother, their father, their brother, their sister. So why would you want it happening to something else, something that just doesn't have the ability to defend itself? That's Damien Mander, this week on The Ret Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast.

Hey everybody, how you guys doing? What's happening? Rich Roll here, your host on the podcast. Welcome or welcome back to the show. The show where I do my best to have conversations that matter with the most inspiring people, positive change makers that I can find, or I guess I should say at least that I can convince to sit down with me, right? I jest. But look, I feel like the show is off to an incredible start in 2019. David Goggins, Dr. Zach Bush, Killian Jornet. And today's episode extends that trend with a truly remarkable human being,

the vegan sniper himself, Damian Mander. Damian is a guy I respect deeply, a guy that I've wanted to get on the show ever since I watched his incredibly powerful and moving TED Talk. It's called Modern Warrior. Back in around 2013, I think, I urge all of you to watch this video. It just might change what and how you think about what it means to be a man. And of course, I'll put links

to that in the show notes. Damien is a former Australian Royal Navy clearance diver and special operations military sniper. Basically, this guy's a massive badass who, after several years and many deployments in Iraq, experienced what I think can only be described as essentially an existential crisis around how he was living his life. And this catalyzed a complete lifestyle 180. He ends up liquidating all his personal assets that he acquired from 12 tours of duty and ultimately founds the International Anti-Poaching Foundation, which kind of punctuates this reinvention of himself from modern warrior into African wildlife crusader, leveraging his tactical warrior experience to advance the cause of animal welfare and environmental conservation. This guy is a very outspoken vegan alpha male soldier turned activist who is now on this amazing life mission to end poaching

and trophy hunting. Damien's work has been featured in National Geographic, 60 Minutes, Animal Planet, Al Jazeera, Voice of America, Forbes, and the Sunday Times. And he is prominently featured in the upcoming James Cameron produced vegan athlete documentary Game Changers. But please don't ask me when that documentary is coming out. I do not know. In any event, Damien is the real deal and his transformation from being this meat eating man's man mercenary into hardcore animal conservationist is absolutely riveting and you're not going to want to miss it.

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Okay, Damien Mander. So after three years on the front line of the Iraq war, Damien departs in 2008 and he essentially has no new direction in his life. He just starts traveling. And this trip to Africa ends up leaving him face to face with the horrors of big game poaching. He has this encounter with a pregnant wild buffalo that was viciously trapped and mortally injured by poachers. And this experience, which he describes in our conversation, basically changes his life and ultimately gives him a new one. It catalyzes this mission to use what he knows about modern warfare to put an end to the practice of poaching. But what's really interesting is that Damien begins to experience limitations in his militaristic approach and strategy. And this is what leads him more recently in 2017 to form and found Africa's first armed all-women anti-poaching unit tasked with protecting rhinos,

elephants, and other wildlife. The unit is called the Akashinga, which translates into the Brave Ones. And these incredible women are really changing the way that animals are protected in this part of the world, arresting poachers without firing a single shot. And Damien is now convinced that women really are the answer and the future in this movement, that women really will be the ones to change conservation forever. And I think there's a lot to be learned here. Damien, again, absolute badass. You do not want to fuck with this guy, but his heart is massive. His story is incredible. And his work is changing not only the poaching and trophy hunting landscape, but how we think about masculinity in the modern age.

So without further ado, here's Damian. Thank you so much for coming up. I've been anticipating this conversation for a very long time. It's a pleasure to meet you, man. Your work is inspiring, and it's an honor to talk to you today. A lot of pleasure. Thanks very much, Mike. day. Likewise, Rich. Thanks very much, mate. I think a good place to start is to kind of

establish the world of poaching and what's currently going on right now. What is this, like explain this whole world of poaching. I mean, poaching is illegally taking something from nature that you're not supposed to be taking. I mean, that comes in many different forms, whether it's removing plants or even rocks, right up to killing elephant and rhinoceros, either for the tusks in the case of the elephant or the horn on the rhino, the bushmeat, the skins. Ultimately, it's a way to exploit nature and in nature exploit animals.

And that's the part that appeals to me in terms of trying to stop it is the suffering that is happening to those animals. And, you know, I've got a certain unique skill set, which is unfortunately required to protect nature. And that's where we're at. That's where we're at. And in terms of the landscape in Zimbabwe and the neighboring countries, break down the kind of economics that is fueling this whole industry. Well, I mean, poaching is often a function of greed and of poverty, of greed coming from places like the Far East, poverty, of greed coming from places like the Far East, where ivory and rhino horn are two highly desired prizes, basically.

And what that results on the ground is people that are either trying to make a living or trying to get further and further in front, going out and taking what they can from nature and selling that. I mean, it's another currency for organized crime and often the victims other than the animals animals themselves in organized crime are other people that are at the lowest levels who are there to carry out the function of killing these animals sure i mean there's poachers that are simply just trying to survive and then there's organized crime right where the profit margins are super high i mean the the price for these tusks is insane well i mean in the in the case of of

rhino horn a rhino horn can go for up to 35 000 us dollars a pound and it's not uncommon for a rhino to have 20 or 30 pounds uh on its snout you know these these animals i mean they should be locked in safes but they're out there running around in the bush and you know it takes a very concerted effort to try and give them every chance of survival and in the case of poachers they're going to be right once we're going to be right 100 percent of the time of course and the demand for these tusks is driven by places like China and Vietnam. China, Vietnam, Malaysia, Hong Kong, Singapore. The belief is that they hold mystical health properties. Well, with the case of ivory, ivory is used as carvings, trinkets,

creates status. When these tusks in full, particularly the bigger ones, are turned into these intricate pieces they carry a lot of value and that's seen by certain cultures as a as a form of investment and beauty and art in the case of a rhino horn rhino horn traditionally has been used as part of traditional chinese and traditional vietnamese medicine and varying uh curing qualities that are recognised in those cultures. But recently what we've seen is it's become a status-related good, and that is it's similar to having a Rolex watch,

particularly in the way that business is done in these parts of the world, being able to present someone with a piece of rhino horn or a trinket made out of rhino horn, it demonstrates wealth and and and a certain level of capacity so in 2009 when you embark upon you know this this journey that you've been on what was the state of of these animals particularly rhinoceros and elephant in terms of how many were being poached, how decimated were the populations becoming, how close to extinction are they? What are the

statistics on this? When I first got to Zimbabwe in 2009, I arrived in Africa without having too much knowledge of conservation or any of these populations populations what was really going on i arrived there you know simply to go and do some anti-poaching um and we can get into the reasons that i went there in the first place uh later in the in the interview but uh the year i arrived into zimbabwe in 2009 that the previous year it lost 15 of its black rhino population of black rhinos are listed as critically endangered as far back back as the turn of the 20th century, there was a million black rhino that were roaming African plains. And 2009, we're down to 5,000 left.

Wow. So it gives you an idea of... A rhino is an indicator species of not only what we're doing to nature but doing to our planet and ourselves. And seeing that downturn in those numbers, I mean, to me, it was a war that presented itself that I chose to go out and try to fight. Well, let's work our way up to that. Let's go all the way back to the beginning. You grew up outside Melbourne.

Yeah, man. Well, I was born in Melbourne, raised in Sydney. Dad ran pubs, so we lived in pubs. I spent the first 10 years of my life in a pub and the last 10 years getting kicked out of them. But I read one story where, I don't know how old you were, you must have been a teenager, where some guy came at you with a pool cue

and you just stared him down and chewed your beer glass in front of him. Is that like apocryphal or did that happen? Yeah, that's happened. It's not much comeback when you eat your own beer glass. Just don't swallow it. Yeah, spit, don't swallow. Yeah, I was a bit of a young hothead, I suppose I'll say. Yeah, interesting as I sit here and look at your book on your desk here

by Ryan Holiday, Ego is the Enemy. Well, it certainly was my enemy for a long time. Yeah. So you grew up as a young kid, a little bit entrepreneurial, free diving for fishing lines and then selling them back to the fishermen. Yeah. So I moved back down in Melbourne when I was about 10 years old, with my parents, obviously.

And we lived in a small fishing town called Mornington. It's not a small town anymore, but it was quite small back then. And the fishermen would go fishing for calamari or squid of a night time and they had these little lures that, colourful little things that sell for 15, 20 bucks in the shops but I used to sell them for five. So I'd free dive down and collect these lures and come back up and sell them to the fishermen and use the money from that to start buying my own scuba diving gear and put myself through training and of course this was paying off so what do you do

you go and get a bunch of shopping trolleys and throw them in the water and wrap them with rope and that's you know conducive to catching more and more fishing lewis so it's like a whole enterprise yeah so yeah that was you know i was only like 14, 15 when I'm doing this and just falling in love with being in the water. And if I wasn't in water or near it, you know, I was lost. And natural progression for me was to try and join the Navy and become a diver. Right. So it was sort of perfect training to become a clearance diver. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, the sea was my office for many years, and I loved being underwater and submerged and just having a task to complete under there. So what led you to that decision to join the military? You know, I mean, it just seemed like a – honestly, it seemed like a cool thing to do, adventure. I joined the military for adventure. Yeah. You don't seem like the cool thing to do adventure uh i joined the military

for adventure yeah you don't seem like the kind of guy who could sit still for too long but what are you saying that because i'm twisting and jumping around yeah based on everything that you've done i was little johnny the little shit up the back that was always like throwing things and getting in trouble getting sent to the principal's office yeah that was that was i was that kid so for everyone out there that is listening that had an idiot like me in your class and stunted your education i'm very sorry so uh there's still a gap between joining the military and becoming a royal navy clearance diver right like it's sort of the equivalent of navy seals so i i actually joined up as an electronics technician because they wouldn't take divers straight off the street.

So I joined up and eventually was accepted to go on to the clearance, what they call the clearance diving acceptance test. That's our version of your buds, how weak. And that's exactly what it was, sleep deprivation and being exposed to the four great pillars of misery, to be hungry, tired, cold, and wet. Yeah. You'd know all about that and those elements. But yeah, man, I got through that and then went on to training to become a clearance

diver. And then September 11 happened. Yeah. Was this, did this coincide, do you know Paul DeGelder? Yeah, I know Paul very well. Were you guys in it at the same time? I think I was just getting out. I'd gone over to the army at that stage,

to special operations when he was coming through, I'm sure. Right. But I know Paul well. He's a good mate of mine. Yeah, he's a friend too. I've got a funny story about Paul. You want to hear it? Yeah, definitely.

So Paul was out filming a documentary. Now, for those of you that maybe weren't listening in when Paul did his show here you know paul is a survivor of a shark attack and he lost his arm and his leg but uh so we're filming this documentary and um paul was there and we're doing unarmed combat training and paul's bloody tough so i go in there and it's me against two rangers i get flattened in two seconds. They got me on the ground tapping out. And now Paul goes in. Now Paul wasn't willing to tap out.

And so what happened is he's essentially wrestling with these two rangers. But while he's doing it, his prosthetic arm and leg came off and had been thrown to the side. And he was still wrestling with these rangers. And I had him on the back foot. And just then a game drive vehicle with all these tourists came around the corner and saw these two local rangers. This guy is missing an arm and leg wrestling on the ground. I had to run over and say, it's all cool. It's all cool.

He's a tough guy. He's tough, mate. He's bloody tough. And he's a good guy. He's a good guy to just hang out and have a beer with. He's a good guy to just hang out and have a beer with. It's interesting that both of you guys have now taken a place in this movement in different ways and have such a powerful voice, that life has brought you full circle to kind of coincide

on different but analogous missions. Yeah. He's got a great voice for sharks and for the ocean and animals in general. And I think that's a really important thing because our movement and the movement of having a better understanding and appreciation and compassion for animals, it's a story that we've got to hit from multiple angles.

And that requires multiple people and multiple stories and backgrounds. All different kinds of voices. Yeah. All right. requires multiple people and multiple stories and backgrounds. All different kinds of voices. Yeah. You know. All right, so September 11th happens. And why was that significant for you personally? I mean, it changed the world for a lot of people to a place that would never be the same again for various reasons. But, I mean, for me, it changed the course of my life.

The Australian government formed what they termed the first and last resort for a terrorist attack on home soil and that was the tactical assault group a very small niche unit made up of various special operations units and and navy clearance divers I went across into that unit as a as a diver and I've been there for a couple of days and was told I was going on to become a sniper or to... Which takes you away from the water. It does, my fish out of water, literally. So that was it, man.

I went and trained and then passed, qualified, and went online as a special operations sniper. When was that? 2003, 2004, yeah. and then you get deployed um so i left the australian military and went to work in the private sector uh and during the iraq war i see so you never went to iraq under official military capacity well actually i did i went uh with uh private companies but were employed by the U.S. military, the U.S. Marines, a division called CPAT.

There's a civilian police assistance training team. And then with the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, Project Matrix, rebuilding major infrastructure across the country. Yeah. And a big part of that, from what I understand, was that you were training the Iraqi police force and basically trying to get the Iraqi population on its own feet with respect to self-defense. Yeah, look, I mean, that was the role.

Me personally, I mean, I didn't join the military to serve my country. I did it for adventure, and I definitely wasn't in Iraq trying to make the situation better. I went there for money and that's God's honest truth. It just so happened that the stuff we were doing there was aiming to be constructive. However, it wasn't. And, you know, I think one of the biggest mistakes of the war other than going there in the first place was disbanding the Iraqi army and the Iraqi police overnight and then trying to replace it with just a whole different you know whole different

group of people in a short space of time and we made so many monumental mistakes that have scarred that country yeah yeah I mean having to train all these people in a very short period of time to do a job they're ill-equipped to do, right? I would imagine that resulted in a lot of people perishing. Yeah, you know, I mean, I was project manager for the Iraq Special Police Training Academy in northern Baghdad, and we had, you know, we were tasked by Congress to train and deploy battalion-sized groups and send them back out there on the front lines, groups that were drawn from a mixture of Sunni and Shiite backgrounds

and from anywhere in the country. And we formed the groups and we sent them out after six weeks of training and they either got killed, they joined the militia and fought back against us, or they deserted. And there's no greater way to demonstrate a failed theory than to send guys off to their death. But politically, they wanted to see the big numbers, right? Just turn these people out because that looks good in a newspaper article.

Exactly, man. And, you know, it was the same time the insurgency was really standing up and a lot of that was led or contributed by the people that had been put out of work, the ones that were trained and the ones that had access to all the weapons and all the explosives across the country. What do people not really grasp or understand about what that experience was like being over there? I think it affects people in different ways, you know.

And I say the thing that probably, you know, I struggle with, you don't get time to reflect until you're out of it often and you're trying to look back and piece things together and figure out, you know, what it was all about and what you were doing there in the first place. And, you know, the thing that affects me the most or affected me the most was just seeing what happened to the Iraqi people and their culture and their country and their families and their children.

And, you know, I made a very strong effort to learn Arabic and learn the culture when I was there and spend time with families, eating with them, understanding them, communicating with them. And, you know, when you can't sit down at a table and break bread with someone who hasn't been directly affected, you can't do that anywhere there. Everyone's been directly affected,

whether it's a kid that was blown up on the way to school, whether it's a mum that's missing an arm or a leg, or a wife that can't see anymore. So everyone's got a story, man, and every story's tragic. Wow. So you did 12 different deployments over how many years uh three years so i mean how long was the deployment anything from two weeks to six months yeah six months were the longest two weeks was the shortest just depending on what the gig

was or the mission yeah right um i mean you kept going back. Money was good, though. I bought my first house before the age of 21. Wow. By the time I left Iraq, I had six houses. Is that a common thing with guys in your trade? They start buying real estate with a disposable income? No, I wouldn't say it's common. I mean, the great Australian dream is to own your own house, I suppose. But for me, I didn't want a house to live in.

I just wanted residential property to invest in and make money. And that was what drove me in my 20s, adventure and money and trying to make as much of it as possible. It was a status thing, to be honest. So after that 12th deployment, was there something inside of you that said, like, I'm done, like, I've got to find something else to do? I was starting to get complacent. You know, we're going out running up to four missions a day

and just complacent, you know, and that wasn't fair on the people around me. You know, I had enough money, I had enough houses that, you know, if I was smart with my money, I wouldn't have to work again for the foreseeable future. Turns out I did after I spent it all on setting this thing up but uh yeah we're gonna get to that but uh yeah i spent nine years of military and you know i suppose i was just burnt out man i mean you're sitting there you're like a coiled spring for three years uh over there and um you know same shit day in day out get up draw your weapons roll on missions yeah and then come back in and fucking sit there and try and watch a

television show go to the grocery store yeah yeah i mean it has to be super weird and disorienting i had a uh a woman in in here to do the podcast the other day who suffered terrible PTSD from her deployment to the point of coming close to suicide and having lost a bunch of people that she was close with. And it was interesting to hear her journey back towards trying to become whole again after that experience. I mean, do you qualify as somebody who experienced ptsd or do you just think you needed to find like a you know a healthy outlet for all that adventurous energy that you have i suppose the danger with ptsd is is thinking you don't have it or saying it doesn't affect you i think there's no way you can you can go to a place like that

and not be affected um in some way and also you know it doesn't affect you straight away for a lot of people right it simmers below the surface and then rears up uh often with a combination of other factors in your life but um no man i mean if a car door slams or there's a loud unexpected bang i'm like on the roof man but uh you know i get a little bit of anxiety I'm like, on the roof, man. But I get a little bit of anxiety and stuff like that, but I suppose that's what you get when you roll around expecting to get blown up at any stage for any extended period of time. You carry that with you. But for me, I think for a lot of people that leave war,

the hard part is leaving purpose. And when you go, and I hate to say war is purpose, but it's not necessarily the war, it's the units you're working with and the people that you're side by side with. And these are, in my case, they're brothers. And there's very few other jobs where you spend all working week together

and then you want to hang out all weekend. It's just, it really is. That camaraderie, that bond is like nothing else. It's really hard to find. And then when you're not there anymore and all the skills, I mean, special operations, it's a special job. And then when you're not special anymore, you're just fucking someone else. And that's a lot to deal with for some people.

What are your buddies doing now? Fuck, I mean, there's a bunch of it that have killed themselves um there's a bunch that gone on to being very successful in the military uh in the private sector great fathers some um you know some people that are really struggling hey you know um yeah i had a bunch of guys go off and follow the diving side of stuff, deep sea or saturation diving. But, yeah, for a lot of guys it's tough and women as well, of course. So you go to South America first to basically like party? I mean, what was the idea?

Yeah, man, I read a book called Marching Powder and they said the best cocaine in the world was made inside san pedro prison in la paz bolivia so i thought i'll check it out yeah how'd that go yeah it tasted like shit but it smelled good uh-huh but uh look um yeah look not a year i'm proud of but i suppose we all got to look back on certain parts of our life. I think it's, I mean, I'm asking you not from a purient interest, but really because I think it's important. Like, I'm always super interested in, you know, how people take their pain and turn it around.

And I think in order to really kind of understand that, like, I want to understand like what you endured and what you went through and like where it took you. Because at some point there was a powerful catalyst that set you on a whole new trajectory. Yeah, I mean South America for me was about bottoming out, hitting rock bottom and I don't know if that was a self-destruct mechanism that I felt I had to hit to realize, you know, am I going to go all the way through the floor or am I going to use that to bounce back off and come back up the other side?

And fortunately, you know, it was the latter. I came back up the other side. How long were you down there? 11 months in South America. Yeah, man, just partying the whole time. It was my way of just tapping out and just, I don't know. You know, you tell yourself some funny things when you think you've been working hard

and you deserve a break or you deserve things that may not be good for you. Yeah, yeah. Your mind can play some really good tricks. Trust me. Yeah, yeah. I know, yeah. So are you sober then?

Are you like totally off everything? Oh, mate, I still love a beer and have a drink, love a beer and a drink and all that. But, you know know let's just say i consumed my share when i was over there right of drugs and alcohol it was um you know it was it was a dark time and uh you know a bit of a later role in shaping who i am and where i am today uh you know being able to look back and reflect on our vulnerabilities and use them as a tool for change, I think, is what can make us truly human.

And nature gets to evolve over millions of years, and we only have one lifetime to do it. So we've got to fucking get it right and get it right quick. Yeah, well, that issue of vulnerability I think is super important. You know, I mean, you're a guy who I look at and say, Yeah, well, that issue of vulnerability, I think, is super important. I mean, you're a guy who I look at and say, you're changing people's ideas of masculinity in a positive way in the sense that we traditionally align, for whatever reason, dietary preferences with what it means to be a man. And the willingness to be vulnerable is seen as a weakness. vulnerable is seen as a weakness. And, you know, I've come to learn and experience directly and through many other people that I know that when you have, it actually takes a lot of courage to

be vulnerable. And that's what is the connective tissue between you and humanity and your community. And I think it holds a lot of power to be transformative for other people that, you know, are struggling in their various ways. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you're right. How, you know, are struggling in their various ways. Yeah. Yeah, you're right, how, you know, it's easy to bottle things up and not talk about them and, you know, puff the chest out. And you're trained to do that. Yeah. Well, it's expected. There's a difference between being trained to be like that

or being expected to be like that. And I think being expected to be like that is harder. I don't know to explain the difference. You know, like, I mean, if you're trained to be some tough guy, but then everyone thinks you're a tough guy. I mean, a lot of the guys we work with in special operations now isn't just a bunch of big 250-pound guys covered in tattoos. You know, there's all different shapes and sizes.

And, you know, it's the small, quiet guy in the back corner you've got to be scared of, not the big, loud mouth with the tattoos. Yeah, I've heard that. So, you know, and for me, I suppose the hard part was, you know, I was a hard footballer and, you know, I was a tough scrapper as a kid and it almost, like, I felt as though I was always having to do something to prove who I was

and to prove the next thing and impress someone. And that, I suppose, has been one of my biggest downfalls. Yeah. Where does that come from, you think? I don't know, man. Just as a kid, just trying to find your place in the world, out there and figure out who you are and where you're from. And I suppose, you know, you can get on a slippery slope pretty quickly. And, yeah, I mean mean i did some cool stuff

but uh i wouldn't say i was happy with the person that i was so how do you get from south america to africa one-way ticket oh you do go straight from there what's that do you go straight from i went home i had about 11 months worth of dirty laundry to take back to mum. And I went home and just put some weight back on, and I got down to 89 kilos. I said, what do you got? What's that in pounds? I don't know. I'm sure somewhere it's probably like 200 pounds or something.

Right. You're like what, like 240? 250. 250. Yeah. So I just went back home, mate, spent some time with the family. I'd been away for the better part of three years, and had spent some time with the family i've been away for the better part of three years and you know i'm very close with the family and everything so yeah i went back there regrouped and off i went man i had a one-way ticket why africa

um look i i read a lot of wilbur smith as a kid honestly it was another adventure and i heard about anti-poaching some years earlier actually i just got a message from a mate yesterday he said i remember you talking about that in 2003 uh in a bar and i'd heard it years earlier as well so it's just interesting it just uh it just sounded like a cool thing you know and it's but was it the was it just africa i mean did you have an intention of seeking out this whole anti-poaching thing yeah i mean i was going i was going over i was going over for another adventure another another another you know chapter in damian amanda's life i wasn't going to do anything constructive i was looking for a call a fight not a cause right and um yeah it was a

And, yeah, it was another, you know, I would say, you know, it was a misdirected use of my energy and skills at the time. Well, looking back, not so much. Your intention maybe. Yeah. You know, things have worked out really well. And I suppose I'm really happy with where we're going as an organisation I'm happy with my own personal evolution and just I suppose

and I'm proud to say the courage that I feel I've had to stand up for those that can't speak for themselves and to try and be a role model particularly to younger men and you know we don't have to hurt things to be cool you don't have to hurt things to be cool.

You don't have to put people down to be cool. You don't have to be a sniper to be cool. You don't have to eat meat to prove how macho you are. You can just be you and you can be much more powerful and courageous and much more of a role model when you do what you believe in. It's interesting that you're, you know, you said your evolution, but that evolution, you know, is continuing to unfold. Like the changes that you've made just since you did that TED Talk are pretty amazing, right?

It's not, it's now extended to caring for all of these women and it's almost become a female empowerment movement as much as it is an animal protectionist conservation movement. Yeah, interesting you say that. At the core, we're a conservation organization, not necessarily a female empowerment organisation. We have chosen to employ women and put them out there on the front lines in what is the only nature reserve in the entire world that's completely managed and protected by women. We're doing this not because we felt a pressure to equal our numbers,

not because of a Me Too movement. We're doing it because it makes business sense. And I think for a lot of people, that's important to understand because it makes business sense. And the bottom line is what influences a lot of people. I come from the ultimate boys' club, special operations. You can be the president of a country and be a woman, but you can't be special operations.

And so for me to be in a position now where I am and genuinely believe that women will change the face of conservation forever is a big turnaround. And ego was the thing that was holding us back the whole time. Well, let's work our way towards that. You arrive in Africa and what, you just like immerse yourself in the anti-poaching community? I mean, how does that work? I tried to sell myself as this tool that could be used and deployed out there on the front lines, and then you start...

Like, here comes another white guy who's going to save us. Yeah, exactly, man. And I've got a lot of closed doors. And I get an email every day from someone that wants to come over there with their own sniper rifle or whatever it may be and run around the bush and hunt poachers, and it's not like that. There's a far more complex situation going on on the ground and this is not the wild west where you can just turn up with your own rifle and go out start hunting people you can join the army if you want to do

that but you can't come to africa and do that and uh you know the position i've carved uh in the industry and in africa has been out of granite it's's been tough, a long, hard slog and one in which I invested 100% of my life savings to set up this organisation and make a go of it. And it wasn't until I'd spent the better part of six months travelling around the continent trying to get a feel of things that I realised maybe I'm going about things the wrong way. Right. And we eventually got a start in Zimbabwe and I just started working with an anti-poaching you know maybe i'm i'm going about things the wrong the wrong way and right and we um you know we eventually got a start in in zimbabwe and i just started working with an anti-poaching unit

and uh just seeing the difference that a bit of face time with these guys made you know seeing you know for them to to learn that they were appreciated and and you know that someone wanted to train them and work with them and you know this was only in one area so i mean obviously there's great efforts going on across across many other areas but i was just seeing impact that i was able to make and then you also see you know i just come from iraq come from from the military units i was in where fuck mate if i wanted anything i'll go to the storeroom and get it uh if we need a budget increase we get it you know we just ask for it and i was part of a a military unit that was spending 700 billion dollars a year uh it's the the annual defense

budget and i was just an instrument of war and uh you know you're part of this huge funds you know spending mechanism which is you know we're looking after fucking oil in the ground and dotted lines on a map and then you come over to africa and you see these people that protect in the heart and lungs of the planet you start to think shit you know what was i doing and and not only that i was trying to have an adventure on the back of their hard work so it made me feel um it made me really reflect on who i was and what i was about and i was increasingly becoming the person that I didn't want to be. But there's this one experience that you have, like a moment where everything seems like, from what I understand, it seems like it changed things for you, like coming upon an animal that had been basically murdered and the tusk removed and that was kind of a turning point for you i mean there was there

was gradual things that were going on uh but there's catalyst moments the first one being seeing a buffalo like you know one of the biggest and most powerful animals uh in the bush there and one of the most dangerous and she had her back leg caught in a wire snare and the rangers can read the ground like you read the front page of the newspaper they they it's a language to them and uh they're able to determine that she'd been struggling for three days and she'd ripped her pelvis in half uh trying to escape you know they use these wire snares they're like landmines they stay there and designed to trap animals that walk through around the legs, the neck, the head, whatever it may be, indiscriminate.

And, you know, animal doesn't, you know, it's confusing when you're trapped in a bit of wire and you don't have hands to undo it or anyone to help you. And, you know, we had to euthanise her. We had to put a gun to her head and pull the trigger. And she gave birth to a stillborn calf. And that's, you know, I may appear to be a tough guy but something like that'll break your heart mate yeah and the thought was if there's a way to bring to bear this skill set that you have and you know kind of institutionalize

it it could provide a line of defense against essentially what you're combating, which is a highly organized, well-funded operation to poach these animals. And up until that point, the line of defense was not organized, not well-funded. People that certainly lacked the skill set that you have to deal with this problem. Look, there's a lot of good efforts that are taking place out there, but not enough of them. And there's a huge imbalance in this world in terms of what we're willing to give towards protecting nature and animals. I think about 5% of all charitable giving that goes out is dedicated for animals, domestic and wild. Is it only 5% of all charitable giving that goes out is dedicated for animals, domestic and wild.

Is it only 5%? And the environment. Religion gets about 30%, and the rest is all humanitarian stuff. So we want to look after ourselves. We've got to look after nature to be able to do that most effectively. And look, I saw a problem. I had two things. I had a certain skill set, and I had money,

so I decided to do something about it simple as that uh there was no long-term thinking about it i mean i was enrolled to go and be trained as a chef down at silverwood in cape town at the time and uh you know that was going to be my next next life choice and then once you know i'd got submerged enough in in this with with the rangers that was it sell up and and start up so you sold all your properties to like self-fund this thing yeah i didn't pay myself a salary for the first three years and uh just used the rest of the money to to pump back in vehicles and aircraft and training centers for rangers supporting various programs and then uh we got to a point we we had $2,000 left in the bank. I thought, shit, I need to figure out how to fundraise. Get on a plane and come to LA. Start doing TED Talks. Yeah, that'll help. But this is many years ago. We started the organization. It was sort of

ragtag, small operation. And who you recruiting to to be your feet on the ground were people in the community or some of your peers from special forces like what kind of dudes combination of the two and we were working largely to empower indigenous forces uh and ones that were already in a role not necessarily going out to train new new forces and yeah it's just i mean a lot of the skills that they need out there on the front lines are very similar to what we needed in the military and we we don't need seal team six out there on the ground protecting these animals we just need people that we can trust people that are willing to work hard that are well motivated and well led and with the right basic equipment and And I always say what we're doing, the first 90% is just working with people.

And, you know, we can't replace people with algorithms in Africa. The most important asset and the most valuable asset is the people there. And if you work with them and just focus on the first 90% of your model is getting them well- well led well equipped then that'll generally solve most problems the last 10 you can start introducing the sexy stuff yeah the drones and yeah everyone wants to talk about the drones but you're always bringing it back to the people yeah well you know well there's i mean there's there's been a number of trials done with drones in in africa and in conservation I mean, the bottom line is conservation doesn't have the budgets

that the military does, and so we sit there stuffing around with bits of equipment that the military superseded decades ago and trying to make that work when in actual fact there's a reason the military has evolved, and that's because they've evolved to things that work in tougher theatres. We don't have those budgets. Are there certain areas where everybody knows these are the established front lines where where the poachers

tend to you know navigate towards like how do you know where the hot spots are where the poachers are going to be like how does all that work yeah definitely um you know one of one of the programs we ran was uh on the eastern side of kruger National Park's border, on the Mozambique side of the border. And that is essentially the piece of land that separates a third of the world's rhinoceros from most of the world's rhino poaching syndicates. And that is very much the front lines there. And, you know, the border was essentially the front line of the war there. Because they wander off the protected land and then they're fair game for that? But the border was essentially the front line of the war there. Because they wander off the protected land and then they're fair game for that?

Well, when they wander across the border into Mozambique, where South African forces could not cross the border and pursue them, they knew that they could sneak up to the border, shoot, cross over, shoot, and then get straight back across to Mozambique. And we stopped that. We created a viable force on the Mozambique side of the border that was able to pursue Mozambicans on Mozambican turf. What is the law? Like, are you legally allowed to shoot poachers, like shoot to kill,

if you catch them in the act? How does that work? It's very much the same as uh as as a western uh law enforcement models uh where you can shoot to protect life as a last resort we teach our rangers to use the minimum amount of force required to get the job done and and what we're essentially trying to do is not only preserve wildlife but also preserve human life and you you post something on Facebook and you get all the comments there. It's like, I'll just shoot them and stack them up and all that. And it's not about that.

We have to work within the laws of the countries that we're in and we actually want to see this thing go to trial and have a fair hearing. And we can't be seen. We're not some sort of vigilante force out there. We're working with the government departments. We have respectable people that are on our boards of directors, Jane Goodall as our patron. You know, we can't jeopardize that because we want to go out there

running around and just hunting poachers. It's not like that on the ground. Yeah, so, I mean, are you able to ward off violent altercations in most cases or how often does it escalate? With the men I would say you know and when I was when I was in the military you know men you sort of you get up to fight and you're always in that sort of fighting mode and countering insurgents or counter insurgency is countering insurgents you go out and you look for look for a fight.

Women have proven to be very different in what we've seen on the front lines. And the 76 arrests that the women of Akashinga have made in the past 14, 15 months have been made without a single shot being fired, which is quite remarkable to see because usually there would be confrontation when there's so much altercation. Now, the area they're protecting, and I don't want to get too far ahead here, but the area they're protecting is home to the second largest elephant population left on Earth.

8,000 elephants have been killed in that area in the last 16 years. So that's thousands of times teams of armed men have come into that area, thousands of times that uh they're not only willing to shoot elephants but the people that protect them and for the women to be able to operate in such a dangerous environment and do so in such a passive way is there's a lot to be learned from that how are they doing that like what's the secret there is it empathy is it that the poachers are reluctant to kill the women or escalate it to that level of violence? The women are very good at collecting information.

Women form the informal communications networks of rural communities. About 3% of crimes that are solved around the world are solved by catching someone in the act. The other 97% that are solved are solved through intelligence-led operations, and that requires information to analyze, turn into intelligence, and we can go out and do those missions. And the way that the women communicate, not only communicate,

but relate to the people in the communities they come from gives us so much information. We know what's going on anywhere at any one time when we have to know it. And a lot of the arrests they do is based on the information they collect and we go to the poacher's house at two or three o'clock in the morning it's around the place and it's it's over very quickly the arrests that they've made in the bush they're very well trained they're very fit they're tough they're well armed we don't like the fact that rangers have to be armed and they need these sort of skills but that's the reality

of it out there on the front lines. That's interesting. And I don't know the exact dynamics. We're working with the Chinoa University of Technology to look at a number of different things on this project that we want to understand from a scientific standpoint because there's some really different things that are going on here. I mean, another thing, for example, the old patrol reports of when the men worked in this

area they were charged by dangerous animals like elephant buffalo quite regularly uh the women haven't been charged once yet and we look at that and we thought what's going on there we found a study where uh voices from two different tribes were played to elephants in kenya one of the one of the tribes had historically hunted elephants, one had not. The elephants became very agitated to the voice recording of the tribe that had hunted them and not agitated to the other voice recordings. These animals know what's going on, man.

They're smart. We spoke to the professor, Victor Mposchi, at the Cut University there. He said, what do you think this is, Prof? He said, well, it's probably as simple as this. What's been hunting animals for thousands of years it's been men not women and so if we can scientifically prove that all female patrols are actually much safer from the biggest threat that rangers face out there not necessarily poachers but the animals they're trying to protect you know it's another dynamic to to what we're doing that's super fascinating

yeah i mean that being being met with that specific dialogue dialect and having them be agitated even if they even if they weren't directly hadn't directly experienced that before it's almost like baked into the yeah genetic code yeah yeah that's amazing yeah i need to get back to you on that man and let you know where we yeah i'd like to i'd like to know more about what they figure out. Fascinating. And, you know, we're learning a lot. I remember during the training, very early in the stages,

I'd never worked with women. All our units were all male. And I was just watching them. They'd been given a team-building task, and I was getting super frustrated that, you know, there wasn't all the grunting and groaning that you would expect with doing what we were putting them through at the time, and I was about to go and intervene and just say,

look, if you don't want to be here, then just pack your bags and leave. We only want people that are putting in 100% effort all the time, and then I shut up, bit my tongue, and went shut up and sat down and just watched them, and they got the job done and they got it done in time and they got done as well as it had to be done. It was far less bullshit and I realized there's just different ways of doing things. Well, we should just establish that you started this unit called Akashinga,

which is this all-female ranger program. What was it like? It's within a year, right, or a year ago or something? It's very recent. August 2017 we started, yeah. And explain to me the impetus to forming this. I mean, reading more and more literature about the empowerment of women and industries that are that are transitioning to have more women inclusive in management positions,

board positions, field positions and the flow on benefits that they're realizing and being part of a largely male-dominated industry and particularly at ground level where men outnumber women by up to 100 to 1 on the front lines and the ratios you'll hear are different uh there's a study done said 19 of rangers are actually female but those females are restricted generally to looking after a gate or an office job or not frontline jobs and so we thought if women aren't being given access to every every role at ground level then they can't really rise into management positions and be expected to make life and death decisions in in an operational environment um they can't do that without having the all that experience behind them and i thought well if we can't progress as an industry an industry that's had tens of billions of dollars

invested into it and we're still talking about animals going extinct and maybe we need to re-look at how we're doing things um i read a an article i believe it was the new york times about the u.s army rangers and they're putting a platoon through that had a certain percentage of women on there now i have a close affiliation with the u.s army rangers because we got into a spot of bother in northern baghdad and and uh those guys came and got us out of there so i thought well if these guys save my ass in northern baghdad and uh and they're actually transitioning and including women on in front front front line roles now as rangers in the army then maybe we need rangers uh wildlife rangers that are females in africa

i mean there's certainly women that are employed out there in various roles but uh other well we looked at other projects that were including women it seemed almost like a token gesture like women were being put in certain positions but not given given the opportunity uh to complete all the roles and so we thought stuff you know let's let's do a selection and see where it goes and uh we tried and tried and tried in in many different areas and we got um we got blocked from this concept of having an all-female anti-poaching unit an armed one which there was no armed all-female anti-poaching unit anywhere on the continent um there are other female anti-poaching units but but they're unarmed. The Black Mamba? The Black Mamba is one example where they are working outside in the communities

and doing a fantastic job in building those relationships, but the inside of the reserve, the role is done by an armed male unit that's a private security company, so also doing a fantastic job, but it undermines the men because they're not given the recognition that the women are getting, and it undermines the women because they're not given the opportunity that the men are given to do every role. So we wanted to create something where there was complete opportunity for everyone that passed the selection.

And when you say you were blocked, I mean, what exactly was going on? Oh, there's politically correct responses to why it wasn't the right time to look at this or no thank you and no we don't want to take the risk um but uh you know we were determined to give it a try and we eventually found an area in the lower zambesi ecosystem in in zimbabwe and one of the largest elephant populations left on earth an area that has been home to a lot of trophy hunting operations throughout the years and 20% of Zimbabwe's land mass is actually set aside for trophy hunting or safari areas collectively across Africa an area the size of Texas is set aside for trophy hunting. Now, if I was to say to you, Rich, mate, we're going to scrap 700,000 square kilometres, or an area the size of Texas, we're going to wipe out all of those national parks across Africa,

people would be in absolute uproar. Now, this is happening with all the areas that have been set aside for trophy hunting, but they're not national parks. They're communal areas, communal hunting areas. They are areas that have equal biodiversity importance as national parks, but let's just say not ideal for tourism. Are they privately owned or is it government land? Usually government or owned by the communities.

And so when these areas do well, the communities do well. And when they don't, the communities see no need to areas do well the communities do well and when they don't the communities see no need to conserve them anymore and they move in, the trees get cut down, the animals get poached, it often gets converted into grazing area for cattle and so we saw trophy hunting not as an argument to be had but rather as an equation to be solved and we went on to this area to try and create an alternative economic model to trophy hunting at the same time as trying to stand up this all-female anti-poaching movement. Yeah, so it serves multiple agendas.

Because one of the things with the International Anti-Poaching Foundation and what you were doing initially and traditionally is effective, but also sort of a band-aid on this massive problem. Because until you create the right incentives, the right economic incentives, and you're sort of woven into the fabric of the community where they're supporting what you're doing, you're going to be challenged, right? So by creating this all-female cadre of women, of rangers, you're basically connecting with the communities

in a more in-depth way. I think... Creating incentives that these people can support themselves and find a way you know a better way i think uh i mean to summarize it i think women have become the bridge that conservation had to build into the communities and break down those barriers and i mean historically when we were forming an anti-poaching unit or working with one the men that we would employ would be employed from places far away we'd bring them in and that's so they they weren't living next to or the working next door to their cousins or their brothers and you know they can give information

of where certain herds of animals are going to be because i've worked with some of the best units in africa and corruption always creeps in and i often say going to africa and getting upset with with corruption is like going to the beach and getting pissed off with the sand it's there it's it's how we how we manage it that that determines the difference between success and failure of a program and if you can walk in and take corruption out of the equation you're already halfway home and um you know so with with the women we haven't seen corruption yet uh we're 15 months into it we haven't seen an incident of corruption and that allows us to employ 100 from the local community right next door to where we're 15 months into it we haven't seen an incident of corruption and that allows us to employ a hundred percent from the local community right next door

to where we're where we live are working and that turns the biggest line item we have in conservation which is law enforcement into a direct community investment and and putting money that would otherwise be dispersed around the country directly into the local community at household level into the hands of women and just politically I mean that makes it a lot easier for you be dispersed around the country directly into the local community at household level into the hands of women and just politically i mean that makes it a lot easier for you to get done what you're trying to get done and then these women are empowered and they can buy land and you know raise their kids it's amazing watching uh you know the transformation and each one of these women has

a has a tough story a tough background um they're all um survivors of abuse um you know domestic violence sexual sexual uh violence um aids orphaned single mothers abandoned wives so they've you know when we put them through training we you know we thought we were being tough on them but they'd already been through hell and back so um yeah just seeing the way that they transform themselves and absolutely no handouts that have been given on this program, we made it bloody tough. If anything, we made it tougher than we normally would because we were at reputational risk in our own minds of employing women now and putting them out there. So we thought we were really going to test them. And once we saw the potential, the capabilities, the toughness, the resilience, it became our job to train yeah when you got the first group of women

and began the training did you think like you know this could go sideways like or did you think like this is going to work right from the outset no from halfway through day one we knew we had something very special something very different you can just see you know you learn the most about someone when they don't think they're being watched and some of the stuff we're putting these women through and seeing how they work together and just cracked on with, you know, minimal fuss and getting the job done. And, you know, it was a pretty arduous and dangerous environment at the time. So how many women are part of it now? So we've got 47 staff that are employed. Around 40 of those are women we got seven guys that are

working on building roads and doing construction out in the bush and we've got james so james was the skinner for the hunting operation that used to be there and so when when someone would come in and shoot an animal which doesn't happen't happen anymore, we've bought the company, well, the area out, working with the other stakeholders there. So we've bought out the options to hunt there ever again and putting different models in. But James, who was left over there, he's now been trained as a vegan chef. So he used to skin animals. He's now skinning potatoes and carrots. And all these women are eating vegan, right?

Yeah, the whole program's vegan. And we took that stance by making the program vegan, not necessarily making the women vegan, but giving them the opportunity and the understanding of why we think conservation should be leading the pack in terms of driving a vegan message around the world people that sign up for conservation because they love the environment or animals or a combination of the two and What better way to protect animals and not to stick them in your mouth? Yeah, I saw that

60 minutes piece that just came out recently right in Australia. Yeah on the Oca the Makashinga. And it's emotional, I mean, to see these women coming from the circumstances that they were in to this incredible place of empowerment and then to be recognized. And when they go back to their communities or they go to schools, like, everybody knows who they are. Like, it's a big thing. Yeah, there's this unintended social engineering that's going on there in these communities

where women were once, you know, I won't say outcast, but, you know, treated very poorly. And, you know, they weren't necessarily victims of circumstance. They're largely victims of men. And to see now the way that they carry themselves and the respect they have in the local community the way they've been able to break down the barrier between conservation and community and build relationships and conversations instead of conflict it's a testament to i think what is natural quality that these women possess what did the male villagers think of it?

So when these women were coming for selection, they were told to go back home, to essentially piss off back to the home and carry out their job there as domestic workers. And they stuck their head down and they turned up and they went through the training. And the ones that made it through are now just fantastic ambassadors in the local communities. Abigail, a young lady, she's 19, finished school about a year and a half ago.

She goes back to a local school now. She's mobbed like a rock star by every young girl in that school. And she creates hope for them and that's that's special to see in in a community where you know women get pushed constantly right to the back of the line right and what is the effectiveness of the unit in terms of combating poaching so when we first got in there uh we would see animals as wildlife as little as once a week we're now seeing animals coming in uh on every patrol that we're going out um the women have made 76 arrests which is sort of unprecedented unprecedented success throughout that area

the distance between where they operate from and where they're making those arrests is getting further and further apart so the information they're getting is driving them into the syndicates and mid-levels of the syndicates and breaking those open. Information they got last year implicated former First Lady Grace Mugabe in ivory trafficking. That led the Zimbabwean government to set up a task force. So here you've got the most oppressed demographic under the Mugabe regime for 37 years,

being women in rural communities now responsible for triggering an investigation into one of the most powerful women on the continent. Wow. So Mugabe's out now. Has that changed anything politically? Well, President Mnangagwa has taken over, and we are hoping that more investment and more visitors to Zimbabwe will see.

It's actually a very safe and beautiful country. Manangagwa's daughter, Toriro, is one of the rangers that works with this program. It's better than... Didn't Mugabe's wife get busted for poaching? Yeah. Yeah. So that's, you know, I mean, Mugabe's kids would be on Instagram tipping champagne over their Rolex watches

and just carrying on like brats in general. And here you've got the daughter of the current president. She spends time out there on the front lines patrolling to protect their natural heritage. That's a huge change yeah do these syndicates operate with relative impunity i mean what is the you know how effective is the government is the government complicit at all like what is what is the level of corruption that allow these um crime organizations to flourish yeah i don't think a corruption is isolated to Zimbabwe,

and I suppose any different government department is going to have good people in there and bad people, and I don't think Zimbabwe is any different to the other countries over there. You know, it's always tough for governments to look favorably upon conservation particularly in the current climate because conservation is becoming increasingly militarized and it's becoming increasingly militarized because people are becoming increasingly desperate and so we put up bigger fences and more

guns and we we're at war with the local population on a continent that's going to have two billion people on it by 2040 now when a government is seen to favour those actions, they're viewed by the people, their voters, as favouring the lives of animals over people, and that pushes the priority of conservation further down the list. Now, with these women forming that bridge into these communities where we're not having a war with the local population, we're having a relationship with them, it actually brings conservation into a much more favorable light for the government. And as somebody with boots on the ground over there, what is the real relationship between conservation and trophy hunting? Because there's this argument among

hunters that by participating in this structure that exists over there that that is actually contributing to the promotion of conservation because of how they use the funds look i i don't i mean i used to hunt you know it's a chapter in my life that i will be having to take to the grave that's that's me um what i dislike more than hunting is the fact that we as a global community have accepted it as the only economic model to look after so many areas and relied on it on it and and you know this unethical model where people pay to come and shoot something uh so they can hang it on their wall has been the only way we've been able to come up with those funds and for us as an order I was saying before we wanted to look at it

as an equation to be solved and you know we're hunting has put money into certain areas to fund the protection of those areas that that funding is drying up and we do need alternative models yeah I would imagine you know social media has played a part in making it less and less uh popular for people to embark on those trophy hunts you know with cecil and the like you know it's it's got to be a dying thing is it it definitely is i mean hunting is an endangered species itself and one which i think is going to be increasingly reserved for the uber-rich. You've got reduced wildlife populations from poaching and in some cases hunting, trophy hunting. And there is a distinction between the two.

Poaching is illegal and sanctioned trophy hunting is legal. And sanctioned trophy hunting is legal. And then the third, we've got tougher policies and laws surrounding the export of trophies such as ivory from countries like Zimbabwe to places like America. So it makes it harder for the trophy hunter to bring their trophy back. And those sanctions are normally imposed by entities such as the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service when they assess a country's conservation efforts

and they try to make different adjustments to help conservation on the ground. And the third reason is exactly what you said, social media, a generation of people that have grown up being able to see exactly what hunting is at the click of a finger and make the decision that they don't want to get on a plane and fly across the world so they can shoot something in the face anymore. What is the biggest obstacle to winning this war on poaching?

Look, I think we definitely need a shift in the balance of how we look at protection of the natural world and our future as a species is directly intertwined with our willingness to preserve biodiversity and if we don't wake up and actually get behind this environmental move, whether it's doing something about climate change, a small change, a big change, whatever it is in your own home, with your own children, if we don't do something then we are the endangered species this rock has been spinning through through space for 5.3 billion years doing its thing and it survived much worse than mankind

and unless we can seriously get together and and get behind this environmental movement and shift things like this i mean this crappy proportion of funding that we have in the in the not-for-profit world from five percent i mean five percent seriously guys five percent to look after the natural world the the the world that we all have to live in and inhabit and all these other animals have to live here too if we can't seriously get that right then we're fucked do you think you're pessimistic or optimistic about that future? I'm definitely optimistic, mate. And I've had my pessimistic couple of years. And the good thing about crisis is it's like me in South America, man. You can either get shat back out the other side, man,

and get up and dust yourself off and learn from the lessons, evolve, or you can sit there and be fucking grumpy about it. But, you know what, man, there's a bunch of people that are doing some really cool things and some inspiring things, you know, and to look, if you were to go back 10 years and look forward to today and look at all the talk that's going on around protecting the environment and policy changes, I mean, yeah, there's a lot of shit things going on out there, but, you know what, we're aware of them,

and when we're aware, we can start to make changes, and I don't think, you know, there hasn there's a lot of shit things going on out there, but you know what? We're aware of them, and when we're aware, we can start to make changes. And I don't think, you know, there hasn't been a point in history where people have been so excited about trying to do good things for the environment. We just need more and more momentum. Yeah. It's interesting how we as a culture are more empathetic or we can wrap our heads around

getting um here you want some more water uh compassionate about these incredible animals like rhinos and and elephants and the like um but right under our noses is this you know massive uh industrial complex known as factory farming and we just can't find it in ourselves to extend that same sense of of empathy or concern to you know cattle and chickens and fish and these other animals that you know we consume voraciously yeah there's i mean that's that's speciesism which is the same as uh sexism or racism allocation of different values and rights to different species and animals depending on how convenient they are to us and this is uh you know i was a a victim of my own bullshit uh when i

walked around the bush for four years um refusing to acknowledge acknowledge that a cow has the same capacity to suffer as a rhino and the only difference we create between their two abilities to suffer is the difference we create in our own minds and you know I was a master of coming up with all these excuses as to why we you know other animals didn't need the same level of appreciation as what the ones were that I was protecting. Cows aren't going extinct, or they've been bred for us to eat. I do so much good work in conservation that I've earned the right to be able to come home and eat these animals, and it's bullshit. And eventually, I suppose if you're open enough to acknowledging the truth,

it gets too much for you, and that's a good thing. Yeah, it is interesting. You weren't vegan from the outset. You were kind of well into this work before. You know, I mean, I come from a background of hunting, not caring for the environment, and not giving a shit about animals. And I'm not proud of that, but you know what?

It's a good start point to have a conversation with pretty much anyone in the world because, you you know some people are born close to perfect i was you know quite the opposite and it's it's being able to change and being able to identify where the mistakes are and use those as lessons and you know i can sit down with the hunter from texas i can sit down with the with the guy that likes to eat his steak because that used to be me. Yeah. You know? Well, not only that. I mean, you're not, you know, a dreadlocked hippie. You know, it's like you walk in and you cut this very masculine frame and you have your background that you have. gives you some gravitas to walk into a room and be taken seriously on issues that perhaps would be dismissed if somebody who looked different than you was trying to communicate

them yeah you know what i mean yeah i mean it's back to that like issue about masculinity all different shapes and sizes uh you know um and i'll still say that the the the best decision i've ever made in my in my life out of everything i've done say the the the the best decision i've ever made in my in my life out of everything i've done places i've been the best decision i've ever made is to go vegan and to acknowledge that and you know what you don't even have to get out of bed before you're doing something good for the environment and good for animals and uh it's a really liberating feeling to know that because i mean we've i mean I don't think there's anybody out there listening today that doesn't have some sort of connection with animals, whether it's a dog or a cat or you go out to a farm or you've been to Africa or whatever it may be. You can't look in the eyes of an animal and deny that that animal doesn't want the same thing as us.

It wants safety. It wants shelter. It wants to live without suffering. It wants to live without, have to line up and walk into a slaughterhouse just like any other person would. And I think we're going to look back at some stage and be ashamed of what we've done as a species. And, you know, it's fucking good to be on the right side of history, Rich.

What do you think is the biggest stumbling block for most people in wrapping their heads around going vegan? Honestly, acknowledging the truth. Because you flash up the story or the video of where meat actually comes from. People are pushing, I turn it off, I don't want to see it, don't want to see it. People don't want to know, people don't want to acknowledge the truth. They know it, they just don't want to listen to it. And if you really let your own guard down internally let your guard down and analyze yourself and and just do you really want to be a person that pays

somebody else to do something to animals you're not willing to do yourself and uh you know i think if we just take the time to reflect and have a think about what's on our plate and where did that come from and what did it go through to get there, anyone with any conscience, we wouldn't want that happening to their own child, their own mother, their father, their brother, their sister. So why would you want it happening to something else? Not only something else, something that just doesn't have the ability to defend itself. Certainly, this movement is on the rise more and more people are adopting this lifestyle but there's still a long way to go for full mainstream adaptation to it i think there's a long way to go but you know we're a species that responds well to crisis and i think you, you know, as we've been digging our own graves with our teeth as a civilization,

and I think we're starting to understand that when we look at global warming and we look at the effect that the meat industry is having on our planet and on our health, we're not fucking stupid. We know what we're doing. We just don't acknowledge it. And I think as we get further and further into the corner people are starting to wake up and it's cool it's it's actually exciting mate it is you know i come here to la i go to new york wherever and i type in vegan restaurants and all these red dots pop up and you walk in and you can't get a bloody seat

anywhere you know and it's it's a good thing man good things are happening uh by good people and it's catching on yeah and and young people are are really on board with this in a in a in a way that my generation isn't you know which is exciting because you know what and funny you should mention that because so many people say oh you know we've got to get the children involved that's where the future is that's bullshit everybody it's never too late to change okay we can't rely on the children to fix this the next generation it's it's everyone's responsibility it's never too late to change. We can't rely on the children to fix this. The next generation, it's everyone's responsibility. It's everyone's responsibility now.

Just because we've done something for 50, 60, 70 years that may not have been right, it doesn't mean it's too late to change. It's a very liberating thing when you get with the program. How old is your son now? I've got a five-year-old son and uh i've got a young daughter as well daughter too yeah so what is the world that you would like to see for them you know i'd like them to be able to grow up in a world where animals are not treated as commodities

where animals are given the right to live out their lives as as as we would like to live out ours and that is you know the flow on effects when we have that compassion towards animals and protecting the environment is is i think a much happier world for us all to live in yeah um it's amazing work that you're doing um i would presume that you're here in the states trying to raise funds and awareness right so if people are listening to this and they want to learn more they want to get involved they want to contribute or donate how do they do that yeah thanks thanks for asking that rich mate um yeah you know i mean i come over here three times a year and do a bunch of lectures around the country fundraisers uh this trip is a short one two weeks on the ground and uh if anybody wants to know more

information they can go to www.iapf.org or type in anti-poaching into google it will come up the international anti-poaching foundation but yeah it's it's no donation is too small or too big i'll throw that one in but uh yeah we we really appreciate all the people around the world that make the work that we do on the ground possible and what do you most need the funds for like how would you deploy those funds if you could meet all of your budgetary dreams so at the moment uh we are scaling up the akashinga program uh so we're about what what we do is we we buy the long-term leases in collaboration with the local community of these hunting areas and we're looking to purchase the the place next door now and that's going to cost us just over 300 000 us dollars a year to run uh and that

that will that will be a 25 year lease on that area so for 25 years and we'll renew it again after that it'll be 50 years that hunting will not take place on there and animals can just do what animals do uh go about uh go about their their lives we've got a 2025 vision of having 20 areas that have been reclaimed from trophy hunting it'll take a thousand women to manage and protect uh and putting 6.22 million a year into the local communities. It seems like it's super scalable, right, to take the training techniques that you have and deploy them to groups of women in different communities across Africa and beyond. And also, it seems like a system that would work well for other types

of endeavors beyond animal protection. Mate, funny you should mention that. It's working so well. I mean, we go into an area, a conservation area in a small country in Southern Africa and able to switch the dynamics in the local community where law enforcement is involved and in a much more positive way, much more cost-effective way. We don't need helicopters and more guns and bigger fences. We're having those conversations.

But if we can do this in a conservation setting, imagine what we can do outside of conservation, beyond conservation, beyond Zimbabwe. I think it's really exciting to see where this program is going to go. Yeah. And what are the differences country to country when you go to the neighboring countries outside of Zimbabwe? Does the legal landscape change? Is poaching different there?

56 countries on the continent. Everyone is different, some in better ways, some in worse. Look, every country we're operating now in Kenya, Mozambique, South Africa, and Zimbabwe. We just did a leadership training program in Uganda last week. So we're constantly having to deal in different climates, different settings, different languages, cultures, and political structures. So we actually have a matrix where we assess what we're going to do and where we're going to do it and why. And political will is a very high-scoring metric in that calculator, if you want to call it that.

And, you know, it's a very powerful thing when you have political will behind you in favour of conservation, and it's a huge hurdle when you don't. Yeah. What's the biggest obstacle or hurdle that you're facing, like, short-term right now that you're trying to overcome? Look, I mean, funding is always a tough struggle. We're an organisation that has some of the best people in the industry right now that you're trying to overcome? Look, I mean, funding is always a tough struggle.

We're an organization that has some of the best people in the industry at ground level running the programs and trailblazing in conservation. And then, you know, we've been less successful in hiring the fundraisers or getting our head around it ourselves. You know, it's been a struggle on this side of the pond in terms of getting funding. We have a really simple, scalable model that is working in a way that is more effective

than any other operation I've been involved with before. It's pioneering. It's a viable economic alternative for trophy hunting. We've shifted the strategy of conservation to put female empowerment at the top. It's the most effective single dollar to be spent in community development. And conservation became the by-product.

We are lifting up communities, putting a majority of conservation funding into community development. And on top of all that, the program is a launch pad using some of the most powerful ambassadors we have in these societies, driving a plant-based vegan message at grassroots, rural level.

You know, no big change in history ever started from the top down. It always comes from the grassroots. Always, always. All right, well, let's close this down. Parting words for somebody who's listening to this who perhaps is coming into this awareness for the first time had no idea these things are going on in africa is new to the vegan message um is interested in taking that first step, getting involved as an activist or just in terms of their own personal consumer choices every single day, what can you leave for that person?

Look, I mean, we can't change the world by ourselves. We can do it together, and that starts with changing the things in our world and changing them for the better uh we can't protect any every animal but we can protect the ones that are in our lives and i think it just if we just open up to ourselves and acknowledge the truth of where our food comes from and and the suffering that is happening to animals out there uh if we just acknowledge that as individuals i think the world could be a much better place hopefully one day I'll be out of bloody work because because animals aren't being threatened animals aren't being treated as commodities they've been treated as people and people that deserve our protection I

think that's every everyone's responsibility we have to we have to train men and women up to certain levels with various skills and arm them and send them out into the bush, risking their life every day to protect animals. The simple way to protect them is not to stick them in your mouth, and we can all do that. That's the power that we all have, and it's a powerful thing. Powerful indeed.

Super inspirational. Thank you for everything that you do. You're doing incredible work. So for everybody that's listening, please explore Damien's world and what he's doing. Get involved, contribute, donate. If you haven't already, please watch his TED Talk, also the 60 Minutes piece on the Akashinga.

I'll link those up in the show notes so you can learn more and uh come back and talk to me again my friend rich thanks very much man and thanks for what you do and the message that you drive and uh everyone out there too uh for those uh sitting on the fence you know just keep keep reading keep educating yourself because once the shutters come the shadows come up, they never go down again. Peace. Plants. Super intense, unbelievably inspirational. Thank you, Damien, for sharing your story with all of us today. I love you. I love the work that you're doing. To learn more about Damien and his mission and his advocacy, please visit the show notes on the episode page at richroll.com. I got tons of links there where you can do a deep dive into Damien's world and work. And please extend yourself to let Damien know what you thought of today's conversation by hitting him up on Instagram

at Damien underscore Mander, M-A-N-D-E-R, or on Twitter at Damien Mander. Also, visit IAPF.com. That is the International Anti-Poaching Foundation website, and get involved. If you're looking for some nutritional guidance, check out our meal planner at meals.richroll.com. Thousands of plant-based recipes, all customized based on your personal preferences. Unlimited grocery lists, grocery delivery integrated into the service in most metropolitan areas, amazing customer support from a team of highly trained health and diet coaches available seven days a week. And you get all of it for just $1.90 a week when you sign up for a year. So go to meals.richroll.com or click on meal planner on the top menu on my website,

richroll.com or click on meal planner on the top menu on my website, richroll.com and get started today. If you'd like to support the work we do here on the podcast, there's a couple of simple ways to do it. Take a screen grab of the episode that you're listening to that you're enjoying and share it on your favorite social media platform. Make sure you subscribe to the show on Apple podcasts, on Spotify, on spotify on youtube on google podcasts leave a review on any of those platforms share the show with your friends across the dinner table in person and uh you can also support the show on patreon at richroll.com forward slash donate i want to thank everybody who helped put on the show today jason cameo low for production audio engineering show notes,

interstitial music, tons of help with the website. Blake Curtis and Margo Lubin for video and editing. Jessica Miranda for graphics. Allie Rogers for photography. DK for advertising relationships and theme music as always by Analema. Thank you for the love, you guys. I will see you back here next week with another incredible episode. Who's coming up next? Let me see. I gotta look at the calendar. I should know this before I record this.

Oh, Marco Borges returns to the podcast. He's got a new book out called Greenprint. I love that man. This is a great conversation. So that's going up next Monday. You have that to look forward to. Until then, I hope Damien left you with a few things to think about, to ponder when it comes to how we tread on this beautiful planet that we all share.

Until then, peace, plants, be well. Namaste. Thank you.