The Rich Roll Podcast - Dan Peres: From Opiod Slave To Sober Salvation

Episode Date: March 16, 2020

Today I share one man’s journey into the depths of opioid addiction despair -- what happened, what it was like, and how he ultimately found a way out. His name is Dan Peres -- and it’s quite the story. Hardly a born media insider, Dan was an awkward, magic-obsessed adolescent. But his gift for the written word and shrewd eye for culture catapulted him to premature heights in the fast-paced world of glossy magazine publishing. At 24, he was covering catwalks in Paris as the European editor for W magazine. A few short years later he landed the coveted editor gig at Details magazine, the arbiter of all things cool and zeitgeist -- a post he held for 15 years. Along the way Dan nurtured a secret, seeking refuge in opioids to a salve profound imposter syndrome as he navigated the high-voltage netherworld of fashion designers, celebrities and media moguls. Like so many, it’s a relationship that began with a back injury and a prescription. A love affair that escalated to 60 pills a day, betrayal soon followed. A best friend that turned dark. And an addiction that took him places he never thought he would go, produced more instances of incomprehensible demoralization than he cares to remember, and eroded the moral fabric of his life. By a power greater than himself, Dan found a way out. Now 12 years sober, he recollects the vivid details of his experience in As Needed For A Pain -- a harrowing and at times humorous coming-of-age tale that offers a rare glimpse into New York media’s past (a time when print magazines mattered), dissects a life teetering on the edge of destruction, and chronicles what it took to pull back from the brink of an addiction that very nearly killed him. Today Dan shares his powerful tale from depravity to salvation. Even if the opioid epidemic hasn’t affected you directly, chances are someone in your life suffers. May this conversation open your eyes. Help you better understand the cunning, baffling and powerful nature of this disease. And provide hope to those that currently suffer -- because there is a solution. The visually inclined can watch it all go down on YouTube. And as always, the audio version streams wild and free on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. If you need help, seek out an A.A. meeting in your area here. Or call the Substance Abuse And Mental Health Services national helpline at 1-800-662-HELP. Thanks to my friends Amy Dresner (RRP #341) and Jeff Gordinier (RRP #453) for introducing me to Dan. And thank you to Dan for being so open and vulnerable. This conversation is a doozie. I'm better for having it. May it impact you similarly. Peace + Plants, Rich

I absolutely couldn't stop. I knew I needed to stop. I acknowledged that I was a drug addict. I knew that I was going to probably die if I didn't stop. I had been ODing, stopped breathing a number of times in the middle of the night. Like waking up literally with someone on, like a girlfriend on top of me, like basically banging on my chest, like freaking out because I wasn't breathing. Maintaining a supply of these pills was really my only focus. And I had never worked harder at anything in my life. I had never been as committed to anything in my life before that point, which is fascinating in and of itself, right? Because here I was, I was running this magazine

and I had a big job at details, but this was really the only thing that I paid any true, true attention to. Taking pills were my feedings and I was feeding this beast of this addiction. And so I ultimately got to 15 at a time and I was doing it about four times a day. And so it was a constant search for pills. It's all I cared about. That's Dan Paris. And this

is The Rich Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey, everybody. How goes it? What's the word? My name is Rich Roll. I am indeed your host. Let's do this podcast thing. Here's what we know. Every single day, over 130 people in the U.S. die from an opioid overdose. 40% of those involved a prescription.

About one quarter of all patients prescribed opioids for chronic pain end up misusing them. That is 10.3 million people. How about this stat? About 80% of people who use heroin first misuse prescription opioids. Think about that. I mean, really think about that. A tragic epidemic of untold proportions. Opioid addiction has basically precipitated this massive, massive public health crisis, destroying millions of lives unnecessarily, while also taxing our economy at the rate of $78.5 billion per year. So how did we get here?

Well, we got here because in the late 1990s, big pharmaceutical companies started pushing these powerful pills, stuff like Vicodin and Oxycodone, on healthcare providers as these panaceas for pain. And they did it with the reassurance that patients would not become addicted. But we all know how that turned out. I mean, irrespective of that, widespread misuse ensued, which led millions of Americans to suffer profound substance abuse disorders, decimating lives, families, and communities along the way. So today, I share one man's journey into the depths of opioid addiction despair, what happened, what it was like, and how he ultimately found a way out. His name is Dan Paris. It is quite the story, and it's all coming up in a couple few, but first. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not

hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because, unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs. They've partnered with the best global behavioral health providers to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type,

you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life and recovery is wonderful. And recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help,

go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering

addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem, a problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you

to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs. They've partnered with the best global behavioral health providers to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you.

with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful. And recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. Okay, Dan. So, this guy was hardly a born media insider. He's a kid who grew up awkward, obsessed with magic, but he had this gift, this gift for the written word and this shrewd eye for culture. And it was these talents that prematurely catapulted him to crazy heights in the fast-paced world of glossy magazine publishing. By 24, he was covering catwalks in Paris as the European editor for W Magazine. And just a few short years later, he landed this coveted gig as editor of Details magazine, which, for those who don't know, was very much an arbiter of all things cool at the time. And that was a post that he held for 15 years.

opioids to solve a profound imposter syndrome as he navigated this high-voltage netherworld of fashion designers, celebrities, media moguls, and premieres, parties, and after parties. And just like so many people, it's a relationship that began with a back injury and a simple prescription. And what ensued was this love affair, a love affair that quickly escalated to 60 pills a day. Of course, the pills turn on him. There's a betrayal that ensues, this best friend that turns dark, and a profound addiction that took him places he never thought he would go

and produced more instances of incomprehensible demoralization than he cares to remember and essentially eroded the moral fabric of his life. But by a power greater than himself, Dan found a way out. He's now 12 years sober and he recollects the vivid details of this experience in his new book. It's called As Needed for Pain. And you guys know how much I love a good addiction yarn. And this one,

this one is amazing. It's a harrowing, but also at times humorous coming of age memoir that offers a very rare glimpse into New York media's past at a time when print magazines really mattered. And it's this dissection of a life teetering on the edge of destruction and a chronicle of what it took for Dan to pull back from the brink of an addiction that very nearly killed him. Today, he shares his powerful tale from depravity to salvation. And even if the opioid epidemic hasn't affected you directly, chances are, I can bet, that somebody in your life suffers. And if this is the case, my hope is that this conversation helps you better understand the cunning, baffling, and powerful nature of this disease, and that it provides hope to those that

currently suffer because there is a solution. Before we get into it, I just wanna quickly thank my friends, Amy Dresner from episode 341 and Jeff Gordnier from episode 453, both of whom sort of simultaneously introduced me to Dan. And of course, thank you to Dan for being so open and so honest and vulnerable today. This conversation is a doozy. I'm better for having it

and may it impact you similarly. Here's Dan. Thanks for coming up here and doing this. I'm super happy to be here. Our mutual friend, Jeff Gordoneer, is the one who keyed me on to everything that you're up to. And I'm excited to talk to you, man. I'm excited to talk to you, man. I'm excited to talk to you also. Yeah, I mean, Jeff is a pretty awesome dude

and has been really supportive, has been a really good friend to me. You did an event with him recently, right? He came to an event that I was a part of recently. I did like a reading, uh, near Jeff and I live in the same town and, um, and then worked details together for, for many years also. Uh, so like a bunch of those stories that he talked about when he was on your podcast. Keanu Reeves sandwich story.

The Keanu Reeves sandwich story, theanu Reeves sandwich story the sex doll repair right the repairman that was that was uh details uh but I did this event in in New York and and uh near where we live and Jeff came to show his support yeah cool um yeah he texted me this morning just to make sure that I was you know like all up to speed on everything. And he reminded me of just what a heyday it was at Details during that time. I mean, you were really there at a period where magazines were hyper-relevant and you had quite the long leash to work with all kinds of amazing writers and really indulge long form storytelling in a way that you just don't see that often now.

I like to think that I got to ride the last great wave of magazine publishing. Now that's not to say that there's still not great stuff going on in magazines today, because of course there is. But back then when we relaunched Details in 2000, there were still huge budgets, like you said, incredibly long leash, really tons of autonomy, the ability to do what we wanted to do and send writers off on crazy adventures and then have them come back and publish, you know, six, seven,

8,000 words, which was, you know, which was a real treat and something that's a little bit more rare today. And deploy these amazing writers like Jonathan Safran Foer and Augustine Burroughs who blurbed your book and like all these incredible literary talents. Yeah. So we were able to sort of tap into that and give them the opportunity to write and go for it. And, um, and it seems like that has sort of dried up a little bit, you know, obviously, but, um, it really was, it was, it felt like a golden era, you know, and, and I was really, uh, I'm super grateful to have been a part of that. Well, your story and the book is, it's sort of equal parts.

It's like a toned down, it's like a toned down version or an insecure person's telling of a bright lights, big city type narrative. You know what I mean? Like you're, you mute the kind of high wire act of, of editing this, you know, very prominent magazine and kind of navigating, you know, the, the, the canyons of lower Manhattan and all of that. But, you know, when I, when I think about like that time and what you were doing, it just, I mean, that was like a rockstar job that you had. It was. And one that I was in no way ready for, and that's not like

false humility. Like, no, no, they shouldn't have given it to me. No, they shouldn't have given it to me. But they gave me this job running details. I was 28 years old. I had never run anything like that. Well, you were running W in Paris prior to that, right? I was. I was running W Magazine's European bureaus prior to that. But that was a very lean operation by comparison. Right. very lean operation, you know, by comparison. So then I was given this job at Details and, and, you know, moved back to New York and, and had to kind of figure all of this stuff out and

had to hire a team. And I had never really done any of that before. And what's interesting is you're, you don't like sort of cut the figure of the person you expect to be in that job. First of all, you were super young, but you're like, you know, you talk about this in the book, like you're listening to Hootie and the Blowfish, even though you were at W, like you don't really care about fashion. Like, how does this,

how do you end up with being in this arbiter of style and culture? Well, you know, I think just a quick word about my taste in music, because I've just been- Jeff must give you a lot of shit on that. Oh man, you know, I think just a quick word about my taste in music, because I've just been- Jeff must give you a lot of shit about that. Oh, man, you have no idea. Because he's got like, his taste is dialed.

And listen, with all due respect to Hootie and the Blowfish- God love them. I wouldn't even put them that high on my list. I mentioned them in the book for sure. Rick Springfield. But it was like, it totally, it was like, I'm a child of the 80s, right? I mean, I was born in the 70s, but like, I really started kind of'm a child of the 80s, right? I mean, I was born in the 70s, but I really started kind of absorbing culture in the 80s.

And so for me in Baltimore, it was stuff like, it was like Journey and Foreigner and Styx and bands like that. And so that just sort of stuck with me. So Journey in particular is something that people just like are merciless about when they tease me, you know? Because I, here, you're right, you're absolutely right. Here I was now running this magazine and I would have all these editors who are plugged in. Some had worked at Rolling Stone and Spin and, you know, they knew these worlds and they would come to me to pitch stories on bands

that like i had just only maybe even just heard of in some cases had not heard of and then you have people like jeff and and others who were like music right you know freaks and junkies you know um that were like oh man like can we do something a little different a little new agey whatever the case may be um but yeah it yeah, it wasn't a job. I wasn't an obvious person for that role. But I think that's what led them to want to give it to me. I think they wanted to try something different. I think that the men's magazine landscape at that time was changing very quickly. This was the era of what we call the lad

magazines, like Maxim and stuff and things like that. And pretty like TNA driven and things like that, that just wasn't necessarily something that appealed to me. So I, you know, and, and the team that I assembled, you know, we came up with this, I, I concept basically of, of, you know, creating a magazine for, for men, not necessarily beer and babes and barbecue and sports, you know, but, but a new type of guy who could stand on his own two feet in lots of different ways and didn't, didn't need to have a woman in a wet t-shirt on the cover of a magazine in order for him to be like, oh, cool, I'll pick that up. So we started to kind of look at things a little differently. Yeah, it tapped the metrosexual zeitgeist nerve, I suppose. And it kind of gave guys permission to care about things like style and cool music and stuff like that.

And skin care. And things, you know what I mean? Totally. Did you know a guy named Jamie Hooper who ran Maxim? The name sounds familiar, but no. I'm a little bit older than you, but he was one of the guys that I ran around New York with when I was living there way back in the day.

I feel like, but there were lots of guys like, like that. And this was what, and, and by the way, at this time in our culture, right around 2000, or even the late nineties, this, this was all there was like, this was, this stuff was booming, absolutely booming. This was the, the, the approach approach to to talking about masculinity you know and it was like you know fart jokes and and like the hottest women in bikini competitions you know vote online now you know i mean and so like and that when i looked at that i was like hey listen that just doesn't like appeal to me you know and and so uh so we kind of cobbled together this magazine that you're right i think tapped the metrosexual vein and and allowed us to

look at with a with a broader sort of filter um things that were affecting men's lives and things that men should care about where previously you you uh you didn't see too many guys sort of like openly embracing a love of, you know, aftershave or, you know, or whatever, cooking or architecture or design, whatever it is, you know. I remember just sort of thinking as I would page through that magazine around that time, during that period of time, like, is this for gay dudes or is this for me?

Like, is this like, you know, it was sort of, it had a gay slant, but it wasn't overtly gay. Like it was meant to kind of capture that audience, but also be broader. That's exactly right. It was meant to sort of smash the stereotype of what's a guy today, you know? And we did everything that we could

to sort of blur the line between gay and straight. And so we would do stories that people would look at and be like, hey, whoa, like, am I- It's a little bit too far out there for me. As a straight guy, should I be reading this? But the beauty of it is that it wasn't designed to be a magazine for everyone and so we we knew who our audience was and the audience grew very quickly and the audience responded to what we were doing and and i would just often say

like hey like if this if what we're doing is like bothering you or or or, um, you know, uh, if you feel like it's sort of putting your masculinity or your idea of masculinity at risk, then cool. You don't have to, you don't have to read it, you know? Uh, and that, that was fine, but, but to, to kind of blur that line a little bit and, and, and talk to men who may have been straight or may have been gay, and aside from their sexual preference, had all of the same interests. And so this was our guy.

Right. And so, but certainly not every guy, there's no question about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and perhaps not even you, right? That's the irony, right? And perhaps not even me. You don't cut the figure of like the details reader,

which is interesting. It is interesting because at the time when we relaunched the magazine with this sort of new approach to making content, I was out doing lots of press and promoting the magazine saying, it's for guys like me. And meanwhile, I'm in a pair of like Converse All-Stars and like ripped up jeans and a t-shirt and a hoodie, you know. But I had just been living in Paris for almost three years and had been exposed to this, the kind of European or

kind of continental sense of talk the language. Absolutely. You know, and I would look at these guys, you know, and, and, uh, and I'd be like, Oh, you know, that guy's definitely gay. And then like this, like, you know, beautiful wife would, would, you know, throw up. But like, I was like looking at him and the way he had like his scarf wrapped around his neck and the way the suit, maybe it was a little more tapered than, than the average American guy's suit or, you know, listening to him talk about wine or art or whatever it is. And I was like, oh wow, like this is a really interesting approach to masculinity. But no, I, I absolutely wasn't, wasn't that guy. I think I grew a little bit to become that guy, but I was so deeply insecure with who I was.

If I'm being perfectly honest with you, I don't think I know what kind of guy I was. I really don't. And so it allowed me just to kind of be a journalist and react to where I felt the culture was going, which is what I think we did at Details. Yeah. Interesting. Well, let's take it back. Let's play a little game I know you're familiar with called What It Was Like, What Happened, and What It's Like Now. I know. I know it well. You know the structure of this. I do. I do. So you're from New York. You grew up in the suburbs outside of New York, right? I grew up in Baltimore. Oh, in Baltimore, that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm from DC, so.

Whereabouts? Right there, Bethesda. Yeah, so, okay. Not too far. Same thing. A lot of lacrosse. I know your brother was a big lacrosse star. Not exactly.

A lot of lacrosse. You know, a lot of, yeah, a lot of star athletes. A lot of, you know, crab cakes. A lot of, you know a lot of crab cakes, lot of whales on belts and things like that. Exactly, did you go to a public high school? I went to a private high school actually. I went to a school called Boys Latin.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. So there's Boys Latin in Gilman. That's exactly right. I went to Landon. So probably, my high school probably played lacrosse against you guys. I'm sure, I'm sure you did. You would not have played against me, though. Not me neither. I wasn't partaking in that world at

all. But yeah, so yeah, I grew up, that's where I grew up. Right, cool. And you ended up going to NYU. Yes, yeah. So walk me through just your introduction to New York. Oh, man. I, I was in love with New York from, from the moment I went on my first visit, probably when I was 13 or 14. Um, it felt like the perfect place for me because it seemed like the, the ideal place for someone to just kind of get lost in a crowd. And, and that's what I wanted to do. We talk about these lacrosse guys. And if you have listeners out there that don't know this culture, it's a really interesting culture, right? But it's akin to football in Texas or basketball in different parts of the country and soccer now, of course. But it's very, at the time anyway, it was like super bro-y. Guys were like dipping. And this was this world that I didn't belong to, nor really did I aspire to.

Duck shoes. Totally. Duck shoes or bucks. Yeah. did I aspire to duck shoes, totally duck shoes or bucks, you know, and, and, uh, and like faded jeans and, and, um, and, you know, polo shirts, you know, with a collar up. Right. Um, it was, it was stuff that, that like, like John Hughes and others, I think have documented also incredibly well, but, uh, it just wasn't my world. And so I, when I first went to New York, I was like, oh, wow, cool. Like this works for me because I can kind of escape here and maybe even kind of reinvent myself or recreate myself.

So I loved it from the moment I got there. But what's interesting about your story is that you would suspect or predict that, you know, that young person in New York City gets introduced to drugs and alcohol pretty rapidly. And the love affair and the decline would begin, you know, almost immediately. Right. But that's not your story. That's not my story. You know, I was always in love with journalism, you know. I was always in love with journalism, you know? So while, while like the, those sort of like kids, there were the lacrosse kids.

I was like the high school newspaper guy. I was like super into magic tricks and like studying magic and stuff like that, which I, I did like from, from like, for as far back as I can remember. And so here I am in New York and you know, like home of every major media outlet. And I was like am in New York and, you know, the home of every major media outlet. And I was like, oh my God, this is going to be amazing. And I kind of started working for the NYU school paper and was taking these journalism courses. And when you take

journalism courses at NYU, at least back then, the professors would bring in, you know, big media figures as guest lecturers and things like that. So Dan Rather, who at the time was anchoring the CBS Evening News, came in and spoke and big newspaper writers and magazine editors were, were the faculty of, uh, of the NYU journalism program. So it was just absolutely amazing. And listen, I started drinking a little bit and smoking some pot and things like that. But I didn't, I wasn't going out. There were kids that got to NYU at 18 that just embraced the New York City nightlife in ways that I did not.

And they would go to all of these hot clubs and this and that. And this was back at a time where Randy Gerber was just starting to sort of like open up tons of places in and around New York. And they would go to these places and I just didn't do that, you know. But no, my love affair with drugs, like with so many things in my life,

I was a late bloomer. Right, yeah. And like loss of my virginity, introduction to drugs, like, drugs, like lots of stuff. Just a good Jewish boy. Just a good Jewish boy from the suburbs of Baltimore. So the first main gig that you get is at the Times, right? New York Times?

I was a copy boy at the New York Times. And back when they had copy boys, I don't even know if that's something that exists there anymore. But it was such an amazing thing. boys. I don't even know if that's something that exists there anymore, but it was such an amazing thing. It, you know, the, the times building has since moved, but they were back in time square on 43rd street and, and they, uh, they actually, um, had, uh, uh, press. They would actually printed a portion of the papers, uh, right there on the ground floor of the building and trucks would roll out right from that main floor it was incredibly romantic you know if you were if you were a lover of journalism and a student of journalism uh this was like the ideal being there and being in that

newsroom and um it was a really kind of amazing experience for me. But I also got, I mean, I got reprimanded once for whistling. You know, like I'm not like a whistler, but for some reason I was like, you know, and literally some editor was like, hey, no whistling in the newsroom. I was like, got it. All right. But they would send me down. I worked like a 5 p.m. to 11 p..m shift or maybe even was a little bit longer than that and uh they would send me down to the to the to the press room to print to pick up uh first run copies and and i would bring a stack up to the newsroom and would like hand them out to the to

the various sort of news desks and would have ink all over my hands and my wrist. So you talk about, there's this expression in journalism, being an ink-stained wretch. And that's like, I literally was. So it was a very cool place to be. Did you think you were going to stay there and work your way up? A hundred percent. I had every intention of being a journalist in the mold of like David Halberstam or Woodward and Bernstein, you know, absolutely. So where does the magazine thing start to come about? You know, the magazine thing, well, listen, you know, I couldn't get a job.

I graduated NYU with a degree in journalism or dual degree, also history, but main focus on journalism and sent out like old school in envelopes with stamps into, into mailboxes, you know, tons of resumes and, and just got like a flurry of, Hey, we'll keep your resume on file letters, like back at me, you know, including one from details magazine, you know, interestingly. And, and, um And so I was just desperate for a job. I wanted to stay in New York, but time was running out from a financial standpoint.

And I ended up getting a job at a company called Fairchild Publications, which has changed a lot over the years, but at the time published Women's Wear Daily and a number of other papers and magazines, including W Magazine. So you say you're a late bloomer, but it seems like you didn't waste too much time moving up quickly. You know, it's interesting. I think like late bloomer with like everything.

Life experience. With everything related to life experience with the exception of my career. And so, no, my career moved very quickly and it's puzzling to many, myself included, but- It's that self-deprecating thing. It is. The insecurity. It is. Well, you know, listen. Obviously you're very good at what you do. I mean, you know, listen, you held, you know, listen, obviously you're very good at what you do. I mean, you know, listen, you held, you know, these two, you know, pretty prominent posts and you held the details post for 15 years. I did. I did. Yeah. Like my career, my career has been pretty amazing and I feel blessed.

I really do. I have a lot of gratitude for that and for the fact that I was able to hold on to the details job. But I was a copy boy at the New York Times. I started then, I became a research editor, research assistant, or like fact checker basically at Esquire magazine, which I had always loved. I got this job working initially at Fairchild Publications for a publication that's no longer around. It was called the Daily News Record or DNR, which was the male equivalent of Women's Wear Daily. So it covered the – Like industry rag for fashion. For men. Yeah.

And I was a knitwear, sweaters and knitwear editor. And I dove into that with all the gusto that any journalist on a new beat should. But very shortly after I got that job, really like within six months, I was asked if I wanted to come over to Women's Wear Daily for a really coveted job there on what was the I page, E-Y-E, I page. And that was their like party and events coverage. So I went literally from like covering sweater manufacturers, you know, and going to conventions of like knitwear companies to going out and covering movie premieres and, and, and going to all of these events and meeting and interacting with all of these like extraordinary cultural figures within the period of like six months. And then how long before they ship you

off to Paris? I got shipped off to Paris, uh, probably three years after that, three or four years after that. Yeah, that must've been crazy. It was nuts. Being there, going to like fashion shows and hanging out with Karl Lagerfeld and like all these wacky people from that world. Yeah, it was a very weird time for me

because that hadn't been my life and that hadn't been my passion. Yeah, you weren't like the kid who was reading, Nope. Those magazines as a kid. I'm afraid not. But what I was was a journalist and was an editor who really loved storytelling

and really loved to get people to talk. So even this, you know, me being on the other side of this conversation is something that I'm not entirely comfortable doing. This is not my comfort zone. Well, you got a book out, so you got to get comfortable. Absolutely. And I'm working through it, but I really preferred and still do to be on the other side and to be the one asking the questions and kind of drawing the story out. So whether or not I had an interest in, in fashion, I look, I didn't even speak French, right? Let's start there. You know, they,

they said, Hey, we're going to, how would you feel about going and, and, and running the Paris office for W magazine? And I was like, great. You know, I was 25 and I was like, cool. Okay. What do I need to do? You know? Well, you know, how do you speak any French? I was like, no, I don't. And started to take some lessons, which I didn't really pay very close attention to, which is like a huge regret. Well, one of the things that was interesting about that time that I read about you is that, you know, this, I guess you could consider it a weakness that you didn't have this inherent, like, affinity for this world or this knowledge base for it, but you turn that into a strength. So when you're interviewing these people, instead of talking to them about the things that everyone's asking them about, you're asking them about their personal lives. And they would find that refreshing. And that was kind of a way to emotionally connect with the people that you were covering and engender their trust and maybe get something a little bit more interesting out of them.

And I think that that's, yeah, that's absolutely true. But I also think that as a journalist, that's actually hugely important to do whatever it is you're covering. You know, now look, if you're, if you're, if you know, if you're, you know, covering a political race or you're covering some community board meeting in some small town, you know, you write, you want to sort of stick to what you're there to sort of write about as a, you know, as a, as a journalist. But if you're, you know, having conversations about feature stories you know, you want to make a connection with your, the subject,

the person that you're talking to and, and even identify with them if you, if you can and, and, you know, be empathetic, you know, whatever the case may be. So I would, it was kind of dropped into this world where, you know, these, these people, these men and women, these fashion designers, these, like, you know, icons had been talking for their lives and careers about hemlines and fabric selection and things like that, you know? And I would come in and be like, so, like, tell me about your childhood, or what did you have for breakfast this morning? Or when was the last time you just went for a walk around town? I once was with Karl Lagerfeld, the designer for Chanel, and I was talking to him. I was like, when was the last time you just walked around Paris?

And he's like, well, my dear boy, I cannot walk around Paris. And you're right, because he was like a walking caricature of himself, right? With the ponytail and the fan and all of that. But- Does the guy, does he literally always have the fan? You know, I spent a lot of time with him. I did. And I honestly don't know if I ever saw a fan.

I may have seen one like resting on a table somewhere, but it was certainly not like some prop, you know? Okay. So I was able to kind of find a way in and develop relationships with these people and cover them in ways that were maybe a little bit different. Right. So you get the call for Details 2000? Yeah, we got the call for Details in 2000.

And Details had been around for many years. Details was a really amazing magazine. It was founded in the 80s by a brilliant woman named Annie Flanders. It was founded in the 80s by a brilliant woman named Annie Flanders, and it was very sort of downtown and plugged into the club scene and who ran for many years Condé Nast Magazines, which publishes Vogue and The New Yorker and Vanity Fair and all that. And then it had a couple – it had – James Truman was a great editor there. And it had become – they had really sort of built it up, like I said before, the whole landscape regarding men's magazines specifically was shifting into something that was kind of seeping into our culture from England,

which were these magazines that were rooted more toward like this sort of lad culture, you know, beer and babes. Maxim was really the kind of touchstone of all of that. Maxim was the holy grail of that. And then there were like a number of competitors sort of started to crop up to try to sort of grab their share of that business because Maxim just like exploded onto the culture and in ways that men's magazines had never even really seen before. And so at Condé Nast, they tried to turn details into a magazine like that. They actually hired the former editor-in-chief of Maxim, a guy named Mark Golan, to come in and kind of maximify details. And it just didn't work. And ultimately, it really didn't even fit in with the

sort of broader kind of corporate Conde Nast identity of luxury and sophistication and culture. You know, these are the people that, you know, did Conde Nast Traveler and The New Yorker. And then all of a sudden they were trying to do this, like, hey, how do we compete in this world of men's magazines? And that didn't work. So they shut it down and they were going to relaunch it. And they asked me if I wanted to be the editor-in-chief that did that. So the idea being rather than try to compete in that world to counter program against it and find a niche with a different audience. Right. I mean, let's find some white space here.

different audience. Right. I mean, let's find some white space here, you know, and anyone that, that does any kind of branding, you know, like you don't, you don't want to just jump into a crowded market and do the same thing that the market leaders are doing. Right. You can do that. And we saw that with people trying to imitate Maxim. Uh, but, but it's certainly smarter to try to find a different path or to maybe reach an audience that feels underserved by the kind of current constellation of magazines. And so that's what we ended up doing. So much of the job seems to be having your finger on the pulse of like, what's cool now?

Like you have to really be dialed into lower Manhattan, right? And like what is actually happening that like the rest of America isn't aware of that's kind of percolating in those subcultures. Right. It was finding the trend before it was a trend. It was, it was being, you know, just early enough on an idea and then, you know, sharing that with your audience, you know, you could be too early and, and it would go nowhere. And then if you were late, everyone had already sort of seen the idea. So it was just kind of trying to, to, to, to get it at the exact moment when it was just before it became a thing and, and hoping actually that your story on it is what helped make it a thing, you know? So then your job is to find the people. Cause I mean, you're,

if you're like listening to Rick Springfield and Hootie and you're like, you don't seem like the right guy, but I would take, I would imagine your talent is like knowing who those people are and recruiting them to be part of this team. I think taste in music aside, and I'm- I'm just using that as an example of- No, no, but that's a good example.

Poor Rick Springfield, man. Jesse's girl, listen, you're in your car. Nothing but love. If Jesse's girl comes on, tell me you don't just take a moment, particularly if you're alone. You know, turn that up a tiny little bit. All right, I'll give you that. All right. But I think even Rick Springfield would say, yeah, it's probably not cool. He probably would. Yeah. say, yeah, it's probably not cool. But a lot of love for you, Rick. Yes, I think I was able to put together a team of people that could find those things of like cool hunters and people that understood the culture and could see what was coming and were tapped in in really important ways in lots of different categories.

So, you know, food, you know, bar culture, music, certainly, entertainment, travel, also fashion, obviously, all sorts of things. And then they would come to me and say, hey, this is what's kind of percolating out there. And I think my strength was the ability to say, okay, this is a story, this isn't a story. Or hey, how do we find a way into this story?

What is this? What makes sense here for our reader based upon what you're telling me? So you're right. Like I was never the guy that was the cool hunter. I was never cool, period. And so, but I had the ability to say, hey, that's cool. And so that's what made me able to do my job.

But no, if you dropped me in lower management, listen, I know people, we've all grown up with people that you put them anywhere. I still know people today, I'm 48, that you kind of put them anywhere and really- And they find it. They find it. And all of a sudden they know the great, the coolest people. Oh, I just got invited to this one, I buy this one. I was never that guy, but I was able to find those people and in turn find some pretty interesting stories. But you would still have to, I mean, I remember reading details when Truman was the editor

and there's always, I mean, this is a thing with these kinds of magazines. There's, you know, you see Graydon Carter doing this, you know, when he was editing Vanity Fair, but like that, the beautiful photo of the editor and then the letter at the beginning, right? And the editor always looks super cool in some, you know, get up or whatever. And then you have to write this thing about what's going to be in the issue and kind of synopsize like what's happening right now. Was that challenging for you? Like, I would imagine you did that, right? I did. They dress you up and make you look. I wrote the letter, but there was never a photo. Oh, there was never a photo of you.

Never a photo of me on that page. I was, I, I, you know, here's, we go back to like the sort of insecurity theme. I, I never liked being photographed. Um, this isn't being recorded, I liked being photographed. This isn't being recorded, is it? I was never comfortable in front of a camera and I hated, hated being at an event and having someone say, hey, let's get your picture. And that's your job. I mean, you talk about this in the book, just being, you going to all of these crazy events that most people, you know, a lot of people would kill to be able to attend and you're a wallflower and you got publicists yanking on you, take a picture with this person and that person and you just not wanting to do it.

Right, and I think I'll try to sort of draw out the distinction between being a wallflower and not wanting to have my photo taken. I could maneuver around the room. I really have always enjoyed talking to people. Um, and so, and I could do that with relative ease. It was the, and I, I write about this in the book, you're right. Where like, I would be at some event that I was hosting for like some Hollywood celebrity and they would be like, Oh, Hey Dan, let's get a picture of you. And so-and-so. And

it would literally be the superhero from the superhero movie. And I would have to stand there with him. And as I write in the book, I always felt like the before photo in like some plastic surgeon's office, you know, next to this like chiseled guy with like this chiclet smile and like abs that you could see through a suit. chiclet smile and like abs that you could see through a suit. And like, I was kind of like, just never really feeling it. So the beauty of being the editor in chief of the magazine was that when it came to that letter from the editor that had to go in every issue, I could just say, hey, we're not going to put a photo of me on this page. And that just became the norm. Because you were the boss.

Because I was the boss. Right. All right. Well, let's get to the drugs. Yeah. It all starts with a cartwheel. It does. Oh, man. You know, I, you know, have done lots of stupid things in my life and I detail many of them, actually, in my book. But perhaps the stupidest and maybe the one, not even maybe, but perhaps the stupidest and, and maybe the, the, the, the one, if not even, maybe I think the one thing that actually, I think forever changed the course of my life was the cartwheel, you know? And, um, I think men have done so many dumb fucking things over the years to impress women. I mean, countless in my case, it was a cartwheel. And, and so here I mean, countless. In my case, it was a cartwheel.

And so here I was, I was in my early 20s. I was working still at Women's Wear Daily, covering these parties and things like that, movie premieres and stuff like that. And I was meeting up with a couple of friends and we were in the lobby of an office building in lower Manhattan. And this friend came off the elevator one of the guy that that i that me and another friend were there to meet and was with

like three or four young women and uh was introducing us and said hey so and so just got a job promotion and i was like oh that's amazing but can she do this and i attempted a cartwheel which it's important to note i had never done before and and um and and it looked as if i had never done one before because i came crashing down on the floor and and hurt my back so but this was like me like seeking attention this is me like this is my this is like a theme throughout my, my entire life really was like, where am I, where am I getting validation from here? You know? And, and how am I getting eyes on me? And, um, uh, in this instance, it was going to be a cartwheel and I did it and I hurt my back. And I went to see a doctor probably a day or two later and was

prescribed Vicodin. And, um, you know, that's how the seed was planted for me, you know, and, and took this Vicodin ultimately had back surgery to back surgeries actually on my, on my lower, uh, back and, and, uh, was essentially off to the races off to the races with opiates. Was it that thing where the first time you took it, you just knew? You know, it was probably, it wasn't until the third or fourth time, which was still within a matter of a couple of days

of taking it. Well, initially, if the pain is severe enough, Right. It mutes any kind of high that you're gonna experience. Exactly, and so I think when I first took it, it did exactly what it was prescribed to do, which was mellow out whatever pain I was feeling, but it was only really a day or two later that I realized,

oh, wow, this is how I wanna feel. You just saw me, like I just took a deep breath. This is the answer to every question I ever had. Or the solution to every problem I didn't know that I had. Oh, it's like, oh, this is what I've been looking for. This is gonna make me feel like me. This is what I need. Like I'm home. And, and it, it was the beginning of at least what I thought was like really

important love affair from being honest, you know? And it happened incredibly quickly. Well, the thing that gets a couple observations, I mean, the first of all, the thing that gets missed in stories like this often is the love affair aspect of it. Like it does work for a period of time and it's serving some need, right? And it's fascinating how people find their way. I mean, not everybody, but a lot of people

like find their way to the drug that does something that feels like it's, you know, it's that missing puzzle piece in their life. And it was for me. And so, you know, I had grown up in Baltimore. I was the younger brother of like one of the town stars, you know, like a golden boy in town, my brother, Jeff, whom I love dearly. And he was the captain of the lacrosse team, which in that kind of like lacrosse obsessed environment was like icon status. Right. He was, he went to Cornell.

He was like, you know, on his way to the Ivy League. He was great looking and had tons of, of girlfriends. And I was the sort of the little brother who like did magic tricks in the basement and, and wasn't any of those things. And so, um, and this takes me to the, the cartwheel even, you know, like, it's just like, I was like seeking something, you know, and I just had never found it. And so with the cartwheel, it was seeking validation or appreciation or trying to get a laugh or trying to get a girlfriend. I mean, who the hell does a cartwheel to get a girlfriend or a date even, not even a Vicodin, um, I, I was, I was like, I was a seeker, you know, and I was searching for something and it was that missing piece for, for me. And it was amazing. I,

I don't want to, to, to glamorize, you know, uh, any kind of drug use, if I'm being honest, you know, but, but in that moment, it, it was like being enveloped by, it was just like being like embraced in a way that I had never been embraced. The warm blanket. It's the warm blanket, as I describe, exactly. It was like being just wrapped in a warm blanket. And, and it was like, oh, this is how I should feel. And not, prior to that, like no real indicia that you have this inner addict inside of you, like no issues with alcohol or anything like that, which is like really interesting. No, none whatsoever. I mean, listen, I partook. I mean, I went to college and I drank and, like I said, I smoked pot and had like a healthy relationship with that stuff. And nothing that would have indicated in any way that I should probably steer clear of any of this stuff

until the Vicodin came into my life. I was listening to your conversation with Dr. Drew the other day, and he was like befuddled and confused by this until you mentioned that you were Jewish. And it was like this light bulb goes off in him. Like he's searching for, like he's trying to do the math in his head

about how this works. That was a really interesting part. Really interesting part of that conversation was, yeah, when he was trying to get to the bottom of it, any childhood trauma. Dad an alcoholic? Yeah, I was like, there's none of that. None of that.

And he's like, what's your ethnicity? Or what's your sort of like, what's your makeup? And I was like, oh, you're an Ashkenazi Jew. He's like, absolutely, there it is. And I was like, what? I nearly fell off my chair. I'd never heard that before. I'd never heard that either.

And I have like a huge amount of respect for Dr. Drew, but in that moment, I was like, what? I mean, basically for people that are listening or watching, what he said was that there's something specific to Ashkenazi Jews that have like this, what did he say exactly? Something about like later in life addiction with opioids specifically,

or something about that lineage of humanity that cottons onto that in a specific way. That's correct. And that's precisely what he said. And now for all the Jewish moms that may be out there listening to this, don't lock your children up quite yet. But this is this belief that he has,

and I can't speak to it, because surely he knows what he's talking about, but I just can't speak to it. But he, yeah, light bulb went off. And so that was it for me. And so let's say that's true. Okay, these pills came into my life and boom, here I am. And this quickly progresses, these pills came into my life and, and boom, here, here I am, you know.

And this quickly progresses, you know, you get up to like 60 pills a day and it becomes your primary occupation, trying to source and fill these scripts and make sure that your stash never runs out. And it's like reading this and listening to you talk about it. You know, I, I, I relate to that like obsession, but it also just reminds me how exhausting it is. It's like the amount of effort that went into making sure that you always had what you needed. I mean, it's just, it's not a preoccupation. It is the predominant thing that lives and breathes inside you 24 hours a day. I had never worked harder at anything in my life before that point.

I had never been as committed to anything in my life before that point. Maintaining a supply of these pills was really my only focus. And I had a big job at details at this point and family and friends and trying to manage relationships and things like that. But this was really the only thing that I paid any true, true attention to, which is fascinating in and of itself, right? Because here I was, I was running this magazine and, but this was really all I cared about. And so when you get up to, as I did, 60 Vicodin a day,

I ultimately switched over to another drug that the numbers came down. It's called Roxycodone. Yeah, Roxycodone. It's like twice the dosage. It was twice the dosage, but without the Tylenol. So like with, I was taking extra strength Vicodin, I was essentially taking,

so I was taking, let's say 60 a day. I would take, just to break it down, I would take, and by the way, not immediately. I worked my way up to these numbers, right? So I didn't just dive in, you know, be like, you know what, 60 seems like a good number. I ultimately got to 15 at a time and I was doing it about four times a day.

And so the active ingredients of an extra strength Vicodin are hydrocodone, which is the, you know, the codeine based sort of, you know, analgesic painkiller. The opiate part of it. The opiate portion of it. And acetaminophen, you know, which is Tylenol, right? And so I was taking, in addition to all of the opiates,

I was essentially taking a small bottle of extra-scent Tylenol a day. Right. For years. Right, and we all know the dangers of acetaminophen, but that was another thing that Dr. Drew talked about, that he still doesn't see liver toxicity in people that are taking Vicodin at that dosage level

because the liver figures out a way to process all of this and keep you from dying. Correct. It's amazing. And when I got sober and went to my doctor, he was like, we need to take a look at your liver. Right. You know, like first and foremost, which was fine.

You know, yeah, the body has a way of, and a way of sort of like making it work for addicts. And the addiction is super crazy powerful. I'm of the belief that it's quite possible. The addiction also just sort of finds a way to keep allowing you to feed it. And that may sound bizarre, but that's sort of my view of it. But when you need that many pills, it's really hard to get them. And so it does take a lot of energy

and I put a ton of energy into it and was quite artful about it, I think. Addicts are brilliant liars. Unbelievable. Yeah, like we- That was one thing Jeff said, ask Dan if he thinks he's the best liar in the world. Right, we are masterful liars.

And then certainly like the really close, like first cousin of that is great con artists. And so I would go into these doctor's offices and I was doctor shopping. I was seeing probably four or five different doctors at a time and filling different prescriptions in different parts of town. And I would put on quite a performance for them

on each visit. And over time, the performances became more and more elaborate because suspicions, you know. Elaborate or slash comedic and transparent. Totally, totally. You know what I mean? Yeah. And I suspect it was a different, I would imagine it's harder now because of

everything that's happening and the crisis that, you know, our culture is weathering at the moment, but at the time, and this was another interesting thing that came up with you and Dr. Drew, this was the heyday of the pain management clinics and this idea that, you know, opioids were, you know, the solution and this white hat, you know, mentality and the litigious nature of our healthcare system such that, you know, no doctor wants to get sued for ignoring, denying, you know, like saying, well, he was bullshitting me and then finding out he was wrong. So there was just a, an epidemic of oversubscription. There was. And this is where I

think like the conversation with Dr. Drew got- Well, let's get into it because I have thoughts on this too. And I have a sense of what you wanted to say and didn't say. And it got interesting and it took an unexpected turn when Drew said to me- He became an apologist for the pharmaceutical industry in a certain way. Maybe in a certain way, he did. He was very dismissive of the complicity.

Like, yes, what he said, and I was not stunned, but I was taken aback. And I don't want to misrepresent what he said. And let me just say for the record, too, like I've got crazy respect for Dr. Yeah. Nothing but love for him, too. But he put it all on the medical community, the doctors that were writing the prescriptions. And he was like, no, no, no, no, no. It's all the doctors.

It's all the doctors. And again, I don't want to misrepresent him. Surely, you know, I think anyone knows that the pharmaceutical companies here were complicit also. But I was about to go down this road with him where I was going to say something to the effect of, um, listen, these pharmaceutical companies have spent hundreds of millions of dollars, um, in marketing to, to do a number of different things. And I'm going to circle back to the, to the point where you just

were, but, but to do a number of different things. One I'm going to circle back to the point where you just were, but to do a number of different things. One of those things, I think quite simply, was to falsely minimize the risk of addiction with respect to opiates. Right. Right. And that's one thing Drew agreed with. Right. These people don't understand addiction.

Right. You know, but they have also spent hundreds of millions of dollars helping convince doctors that this is, in my opinion, helping convince doctors that they were ignoring patients pain and that, uh, there were broader uses for drugs like this and that pain is to be taken seriously. And this was the sort of like evil genius of, of these companies, you know, um, uh, companies like Purdue and, uh, and others that, um, were, were, you know, teaching quote unquote, teaching or educating doctors that you're ignoring patient's pain, that pain is real and that you have to trust and believe patients

when they come to you. And for a drug addict like me and for a world-class liar like me, I was able to manipulate the shit out of that because I could go in in a suit and tie and I could go in limping and drag, like my performance was fairly ornate. Right. You're talking about like you would get out of the cab and limp into the doctor's office and limp out just in case a nurse happened to see you or whatever. Right. M, maintain the ruse. I would limp down the street. I would start my performance a block or two away from the doctor's office in the event that someone that worked in that office may have been out running out to grab a coffee or running an errand or something like that. I would, you know, I, I couldn't have them see me not in character. So it would start the second I climbed out of the subway or out of a taxi and I would,

I would limp down the street, but I wouldn't just limp down the street. I would, I would stop and like, and like wince. I would lean against like a, um, you know, know, a fire hydrant or whatever it was, you know, and catch my breath. Like I really committed to this performance. But to go back to Dr. Drew, he said, you know, yeah, no, it's all these doctors, all the doctors, all the doctors, all the doctors. I actually-

Pain management doctors. The pain management doctors, right. And listen, surely he knows far more about this than I do. I know based on my experiences what happened to me. And I actually believe that these doctors were genuinely interested and genuinely and deeply in some instances concerned about the symptoms that I was presenting. And I can't fault them for not being, for not calling bullshit on me. You know, like the performances were pretty Oscar worthy for a time, you know, they really were. And so, but yeah, so here I am sitting and talking to Drew

and we just sort of, we had this conversation and I just was surprised that it went that way. Well, certainly there is an awareness level in the C-suite of these pharmaceutical companies that, you know, look, they know they're selling an insane amount of these pills. These medications are going out. Like the level of, you know,

pain versus the prescription level, you know, to anybody who would kind of, you know, evaluate that spreadsheet would look out of whack, right? Like clearly people are abusing these drugs. Well, not only that, but, but they, they quite successfully, um, managed to, to convince doctors that, uh, if, you know, a kid, you know, some college baseball player breaks his arm, oh, this is good for that too. Like initially these drugs were most frequently prescribed for, you know, end of life care, cancer patients in just like excruciating, agonizing pain,

victims of accidents and things like that. And the people in these C-suites at these pharmaceutical companies, I think seized on an opportunity to say, okay, hey, listen, there's like, we're under like, there's more market here for us, you know, because there are lots of people that are having teeth pulled and breaking bones

and injuring themselves by doing cartwheels and things like that that we should be tabbing into. What's interesting about your case is that you would think that somebody of your kind of privilege and stature, you hear these stories, I don't know whether they're apocryphal or not, of, you know, people who are, you know, have that kind of level of access, have their, you know, their special doctor who's, you know, ethically compromised, who's just more than willing to, you know, write all kinds of crazy scripts for, you know, cash under the table. But you're playing the shell game with, you know, these doctors that are, you know, cash under the table, but you're playing the shell game with, you know, these doctors that are, you know, not those people, right? Like you're just trying to

get these scripts written. I am. I am. As much as possible. Because that was, that was the, at least initially that's, that's what I was doing. But, but I, I was always, I always felt like a pretender. I was always pretending. And the magic, the idea of creating an illusion, the idea of deception is something that I can now, all these years later, look back and say, oh, my love and interest in magic and card tricks and coin tricks and all those magic books that I poured over and all those videotap, videotapes that I bought and like basically wore out the VCR playing and watching, learning and studying magic really. This is your ultimate opportunity to deploy all of that. This was the grand illusion. Master Cherie.

You know, it really was. And I owned it, you know, and worked to perfect it. You know, I would go into these pain management specialists' offices and I would walk into the waiting room and I would see the pain patients, the real pain patients sitting there, people like with just, you know, no color in their faces. People that, you know, took all the energy that they probably could muster just to like get from home to the doctor's office to, you know, and I would look at their expressions or the way they walked or the way that they would like

lower themselves into the chair in the waiting room. And I would sponge off of that. I would make my shtick better from watching these people. You know? Like a method acting approach. Totally, totally. My favorite of all your ruses

is it was when you would create these elaborate overseas itineraries. I'm gonna be in Australia for 30 days and you would reserve airline tickets and print out, you'd have your assistant print out itineraries. I'm gonna be in Australia for 30 days and you would reserve airline tickets and print out, you'd have your assistant print out itineraries. I would, I would. I would bring these into the dinners. I would show up at the pharmacist

with my passport in hand. Yeah, so I would, I was running out, I was running out of pills and I was running out of doctors to get pills from. When you're taking 60 a day, you're always running out. You're right, you're right. And so it was a constant search for pills. It's all I cared about.

And so I would start going back to doctors that had prescribed me 300 pills two weeks ago. I would go back to them pills two weeks ago, I would go back to them after two weeks when they wrote me a prescription for a month and I would start having to get creative in that respect also. You can't go into these doctors and say, I lost my pills.

That's just like that they weren't gonna swallow but i would go in and i would use my job at details magazine to sort of help you know legitimize this and i would say hey like oh it's the worst possible timing but i'm going off on like a world tour to like, and I would make up just ridiculous shit. Oh, I'm going to a textile mill in Italy to see how, you know, cashmere is made. And then right from there, I'm going to this like leather moccasin factory to see how their hands sewn. And then I'm going over to Australia to do this. And here, I've brought the itinerary, you know, and I would have in anticipation of this meeting, my assistant at the magazine make up a travel itinerary. And I would just say, hey, can you put together a travel itinerary? Start me in Milan, then take me to like Sicily,

travel itinerary, start me in Milan, then take me to like Sicily and then from Sicily to Rome and then from Rome to Sydney. And, and my assistant would look at me like, what on earth? I'm like, oh, you know, I just, I'm just curious, you know, I'm, you know, I doubt I'm going to do this trip, but just go ahead and, and call the travel agent and put together the itinerary and let's price it out. And then she would print out an itinerary for me and i'd be like oh okay yeah let's not go ahead and book it but i would have this this sheet in my hand and i would go see the doctors one after the next it would be like the same thing like listen my back's been killing me so it's the worst possible timing but i just need to do. Maybe I should even probably just quit my job because, you know, it's, it's, it's sort of untenable. And, and, and I, I'm thinking about, and I would just go into this, like, I would go off on this like improv routine and,

and like limping and clutching and wincing and, and, and, and groaning in pain where I felt no pain, by the way, you know? And there's no physical outward indicia that you're loaded. Like are your pupils pinned? Are you clammy? No, no, because, or at least not that I was aware of and nothing, there were no obvious tells. And I wouldn't go into these doctor's offices loaded up and high. I was able to sort of be, I would try to be anyway, smart about the timing of what I refer to in the book as my feedings. Taking pills were my feedings and I you know, what I deem to be important meetings, not just meetings with doctors, but meetings with my boss or even a phone call with my mom or whatever the case was, you know, because more and more people were starting to look at me a little strangely and starting to ask, hey, like, what's wrong with you? You know, like that was like a refrain for me from these years.

Like, hey, what's wrong with you? We're like, that's not normal. You know, like those two things, hearing the word normal, like is still like a trigger for me, you know? Because I wasn't normal, you know? And, but yeah, I would go to great lengths to convince these doctors that I was like legitimately

in need of a new prescription. And just keeping track of when you talked to that doctor the last time and how much time it'll last, like keeping all your stories straight. That was actually quite simple, but like thanks to pill- Like a spreadsheet or something? No, the pill bottles had labels with dates on them.

And I could say, oh, okay, I got this filled, which means I saw the doctor that same day. I didn't sit on prescriptions. I would get them filled immediately. And I would start to, I would use those as like my roadmap basically. Until then you have this, the pink bathrobe situation. The visits to the doctor's office just weren't enough. They really weren't when this, when this and let me say also that like I can sort of talk about this now with some measure of excitement or even like humor, you know, but, um, this is, this is a dark and awful place to be. I mean, it really is. And,

and, um, and, and anyone that, that has struggled with or is, is actively, um, you know, uh, dealing with this addiction or has someone in their life that is actively dealing with this addiction. And let's be honest, like a lot of people, that's a lot of people, right? This touches a lot of Or has someone in their life that is actively dealing with this issue? And let's be honest. A lot of people. That's a lot of people, right? This touches a lot of people. You don't have to go too far in your kind of world, in your own orbit, to find someone that is dealing with this in some way. But as I wrote this book, I had a little bit of distance from it.

I was able to look back on some of these experiences and, and, and find also some, some, some moments of levity there. Yeah. The moment of the, of this pink gown was a really interesting time because I, I would run out of doctors that I could call because you start to know who's gonna give them up and who's not, you know? And- Yeah, I got one more with this guy. 100%. And he's gonna be done with me.

Totally, like I can probably, right, I'm gonna try this guy, but they're probably not gonna give me an appointment, or right, or they'll take care of me one more time, and then I'm like dead to them, you know? And, you know, because they would say, okay, I'll give you these pills, but but you know, I really think you need to start physical therapy or I want to start doing certain like nerve block injections. Like I didn't want any of that shit. I just wanted

the pills. So I needed to start to find different ways to get them. And sometimes when I was really bad, cause let's, let's just take a second and talk about what happens when you stop taking the pills. So when you run out, it is absolutely brutal is the perfect word. It's just, it's brutal, you know, it's hell on earth. And, and the, the acute physical symptoms of opiate withdrawal are such that you, your body, you know, cause your body needs them. Your body is craving them. Um, your brain has, has, has, uh, gotten accustomed to having this chemical, uh, there and, and, and, um, and your body just absolutely starts to demand them when you run out of them. And so, uh, and it lets you know that it's not happy and loud and clear, Like, yeah, like in an unmistakable way.

And so you start to feel run down. You start to have hot flashes, you start sweating, and then all of a sudden you're freezing. You can get headaches, there's nausea and diarrhea. Your brain doesn't work either. You can't basically create a cohesive thought. You can't. And it's just absolutely miserable. And any depiction of opiate withdrawal, which includes heroin, that you've seen in a movie is very accurate. You know, you're shivering, you're shaking, you're miserable, your whole body aches.

You can't think, you can't focus. And it doesn't just come and go. It sticks with you. And so I would run out of pills all the time and I would go through withdrawal all the time. And I would go to the emergency room that was near where I lived in New York City at the time, St. Vincent's. It's no longer there. It's now like ridiculously priced condos. But I was wearing a tuxedo and the symptoms of withdrawal were kicking in while I was at this gala. And I eventually left and went home,

peeled off my tuxedo and just basically got into bed and like waited for this to happen, which was just awful. The anxiety, the fear of it coming was equally as powerful as the actual withdrawal symptoms itself. You know, just this sort of buildup of anxiety and terror, you know? Right. I mean, I describe it in the book as like a scene from a horror movie where like you're hiding and like this sort of killer is like, you know, the killer's in the room, right. And you're under the bed or you're in the closet and you see feet walk by or like a shadow or silhouette of something.

And you just know it's about to come. And it does, you know, and like the, you get yanked out from underneath the bed or the closet door flies open and like you're toast. And that's what, that's what I felt this like deep panic of like, oh my God, it's coming. It's coming. It's going to be unrelenting. It is, it's just awful. So this night of this gala, I was like, you know, screw this. I'm going to go to the emergency room. And I actually at like two or three in the morning put the tuxedo back on and went into an emergency room because i i i felt that i wouldn't i wouldn't present as just like a junkie you know looking like truly like itching like quite literally

for a fix if i had this tuxedo on, you know, and that like somehow, you know, this would make my experience there easier. I walk into the emergency room and the triage nurse is just sort of like, they've seen it all, you know, like the New York City emergency room at like three in the morning. And, but I managed to kind of get in and I was in this sort of part of the emergency room and they had given me this blue gown, this blue paper gown to put on.

And I put my tuxedo in a, in a bag that they had given me to hold my stuff. And I'm sitting across from this woman, pretty much the same distance that I am from you now. So just a few feet. And, and she was in a pink paper gown to my blue paper gown and we were in an incredibly well-lit room. And, uh, she was, um, there was a stack, she was next to the counter that had a sink and a stack of, uh, individually wrapped alcohol wipes and probably some cotton balls and tongue depressors and like that knee hammer. and probably some cotton balls and tongue depressors and like that knee hammer.

And she was staring at me and she was naked under her gown. And I know this because she was sort of exposing herself to me. And she was taking one at a time, these alcohol wipes. She would tear them open, take one out, wipe it all over her face, drop it to the floor, take another one while keeping eye contact with me. It was fascinating. And I eventually get led out of that room and in to see a doctor. And part of my whole shtick when I was talking to doctors was to appear as normal as possible. And part of my whole shtick in life, as we talked about with me getting dropped into the world of journalism, of fashion journalism,

getting dropped into the world of journalism, of fashion journalism, was engaging with people immediately. And so I would engage this doctor. I did in this instance in the emergency room, talking to this doctor. It's the middle of the night. He's gotta be exhausted.

And I'm like, wow, it's like the Star Wars cantina out there in the waiting room. You and I, we're fine. Thankfully, I can connect with a normal person because it's pretty weird out there, man. And so I'm talking to him, and I start telling him about this woman that I was sitting across from who was exposing herself to me and wiping these alcohol, you know, swabs all over her face. And he said to me, really without even kind of looking up, you know, like, what color gown was she wearing? Was it pink? And I was like, like of looking up you know like what color gown was she wearing was it pink and i was like like how do you know that and he's like well we give the people that we have

psychiatric concerns about pink gowns so that everyone knows that when they see someone in a pink gown keep your eye on them and make sure that they aren't a risk to themselves or other patients or don't like just sort of behave in a way that would generally be, be, be, you know, described as crazy. And I was like, oh, wow, that's interesting. I get a prescription from this guy. Yeah. I go about my business, not four or five months later, I'm back in the emergency room. I'm not wearing a tuxedo this time. And the symptoms of withdrawal are particularly powerful. And I had taken some other things to try to help tamp them down,

Valium and things like that. And it was the middle of the night and I found my way to the hospital. I just was desperate. I just couldn't go through withdrawal, you know, yet again. And, and I go up to the window, the triage nurse, and I explain, you know, tried to sort of stay true to my script, you know, but must have delivered a subpar performance, you know, because she was like, it's going to be a few minutes.

And I eventually get led into a room and there's like an intake nurse taking my blood pressure and things like that. And I'm sweating and I think my voice was probably quivering, but I'm still trying to stick true to stay to my sort of spiel. And I'm like, how long will this be? Cause I, you know, I have early meetings tomorrow. I don't know if I've mentioned this, but I'm the, I'm the editor in chief of details magazine. That's a major national magazine, by the way.

And I have lots of important things in front of me. And this is just like a burden for me. And she's like, you're gonna be here definitely for a little while, you know? So why don't you go ahead and change out of your clothes and put this on? And she handed me a pink paper gown. Yeah. But here's the thing.

Did you bust a move out of there? I sure did. Yeah. I got right out of there. Yeah, you're one step away from getting locked up at that point. Yeah, I got right out of there. You know, my story has lots of moments at that point. Yeah, I got right out of there. My story has lots

of moments like that, though. It is funny, but it's sad and it's pathetic and it just speaks to the places that something like this will take you to. It does. It speaks to the depths that this will take you. And for me, I've been asked as I'm sort of now out and about talking about my book, like, hey, man, what's your bottom? people in recovery. And that's a question that people want to know, like, man, what was your breaking point? Like what, what got you to sobriety? And it is most often a bottom of some kind, you know, I lost my job. I had a horrible car accident and nearly killed someone did kill someone like awful, horrible things that, that happened when people, you know, abuse alcohol and drugs. I didn't have one bottom. I feel like I just had like a series of- Progressively demoralizing situations. Correct. Stacked up.

That just stacked up, you know? And this was just one of them, you know? But I think my point is that I would wake up the next day after having like, what should have been a moment of clarity, like, Hey man, wow. Like this, this is getting really bad, you know? And, and people are, are, are starting to be onto you here and, or you're like, you're going to die, you know? And I would say that to myself all the time. Like I would, I would, I got to a point where I was at nighttime where like my biggest highs, I would take the most pills at night because I would-

The big feeding. The big feeding, exactly. I could, I could really just kind of zonk myself out, you know? And I would take, you know, 15 pills, let's say, and then be like, you know what, I'm going to add like a couple more on top of that just to like really numb myself out, but this might kill me, but I, I would take them anyway. And, and it's not that I wanted to die because I don't think I wanted to die. I was prepared to die though, for that high. Right. I was prepared to die though for that high. It was just something I was prepared to do. But I would wake up the next morning from these moments

and I would start all over again. And this is the thing, and there are probably a lot of people in recovery that will be like, yeah, like you're not ready until you're ready. And it's hard to- Like, you know, yeah, like you're not ready until you're ready, you know? And it's hard to- And even when you think you're ready, you may still not be ready.

I mean, you have this story about you go through the full detox at your mom's, right? And then basically shortly thereafter, cop right away. I do, I do. And not planning to, but that's just, that's the way it works. Yes. For me, that was right. And it's a really powerful addiction, right? So I went down to my mom's house in Baltimore and what did it for me, ultimately, I was ready. I just couldn't stop.

I absolutely couldn't stop. I knew I needed to to stop i acknowledged that i was a drug addict um i knew that i was going to probably die if i didn't stop i had been od'ing so i would had stopped breathing a number of number of times in the middle of the night um there's a i write about in the book of a girlfriend like waking up literally with someone on like a girlfriend on top of me like basically banging on my, like freaking out because I wasn't breathing. Later when I was married, my wife would say, you know, in the morning, like, wow, you were like gasping for air in the middle of the night, you know, almost like you're holding your breath. Like, you know, what's, what's going on, you know? And I'd be like, I don't know, maybe it's sleep apnea or, or, or

something like that. It's crazy how long you got away with it in your marriage. It's extraordinary how long I got away with it in my marriage. And it's also, you know, if we're being really honest, you know, it's extraordinary what I put her through. Yeah. And I think- Because you're never really present and there's no true intimacy as long as, you know, that exists between you.

That's correct. There's like a wall in between us. And there was just, there was something that was more important. There was something I loved more, you know, and that was, that was these drugs. And, and, and it's hard for me to say this now. Like, I, I feel it.

Like, I feel like, you know, like emotions stirring up around this, you know, but that's just the truth. Like I was, I wasn't present for anyone or anything in my life other than this addiction. It was the only thing that I cared about and feeding it. And so, um, the, the people that are around addicts, the people that are in the lives of addicts, certainly moms and dads and siblings, but also spouses and partners and colleagues,

all of those things really are just victims of this addiction also. They suffer tremendously at the hands of this addiction also. Yeah, and the addict is blind to that until it's way too late. Absolutely, the addict does not see it. Worse, the addict will try to turn it and gaslight, and will try to-

Of course, you've gotta protect that above everything else. Exactly, so I would try to make anyone that would start to question my behavior, I would do everything in my power to make it seem like, to actually make it seem like you owe me an apology for suggesting that. Like, what's wrong with you? How dare you? Why are you being paranoid or whatever it is? And the great lie, of course, I mean, during the romance period, there's this sense that you're hyperproductive and you're able to like, you know, perform at a higher level.

And like, this is what I need in order to do this crazy job that I have. Right. And it's only over time that you realize that that's all a lie. That's all bullshit. And there is a little bit of a narrative out there around your story in your book that you were this high functioning addict. And I guess, you know, I understand that. I don't believe that to be true. But like. And I guess, you know, I understand that, but like, yeah, it's not true.

I don't believe that to be true. So let's clear that up. You become this absentee editor. You're like working from home or you're coming up with reasons not to come into the office. Shit's going haywire. There's, you know, crises that are happening that are widely publicized

about things that are happening at the magazine. And this, you know sense that you become this very mercurial person right who's prone to these outbursts and unpredictable and but it was more of a an air of mystery than anything else but i think i think that that's an amazing point i'm really glad you brought that up it's actually really sort of like astute point to make like Like I wasn't high functioning. And I've been, and that is part of this sort of thing that's out there now about this book

that I was this high functioning addict. I wasn't. I was an addict hiding in plain sight. And there are a lot of addicts hiding in plain sight. It's like, what was that story in the New York Times about the Silicon Valley executive and the wife who didn't know and she found him dead. Like I think they were divorced,

but then she found him dead in his place and all the vials everywhere. Exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I know her and Eileen, and she's written a terrific, terrific book and about her experience. Oh, is smashed? Smacked.

Smacked, right, yeah, yeah, yeah. And and or at least I'm pretty sure and and so so look I I wasn't high functioning it may I may have appeared to to be and I and I didn't try to portray it that way in the book in fact I think I portray it quite honestly I think just people in a perfunctory way like oh he was able to hold this job for seven years or whatever while under the influence. And I was, and so that, you're right, that leads people to then say, you must've been a high functioning addict.

I wasn't, I was an absentee editor. I was plugged in when I needed to be and was there at the ideation stage of things. Um, because that was always my strength, finding the story, what's the way in here, what's the best way for us to tell this story, even high, I was able to do that, but I was not there in any meaningful way. And, and had it not been for an extraordinary team of editors and writers and everyone that's around helping to sort of produce a magazine, it wouldn't have gotten published. Right. The other narrative that's emerged from your book, which I imagine

probably comes as somewhat of a surprise to you, is that now it's become this referendum on corporate responsibility and what actually was going on at Condé Nast during this time. Yes, and I don't care for that narrative too much. I'm not paying that much attention to it, but I know that it's there. And I think, listen, people are entitled

to have whatever reaction they want to the book. I think what I'm learning is that there are certain media people that their reaction is, and then I want to circle back to getting sober at my mom's if we can. Yeah, of course. there are people that are, are, are looking at it and being like, you know, where was the oversight and where was the management of this person, meaning me and how could they not know meaning the corporation? Um, and, and, oh my God, editors were traveling like that and flying first class and all of that and shame on him for, you know, someone else could have been doing this job. And I didn't write the book for media people no you're right you're just telling your story i'm telling my story obviously it's this is this

is like a surprising byproduct it is and it's an annoying one but but i i'm working through it but it's it's um to me uh details magazine condé Nast, the publishing company that put Details Magazine out, media in general, are really just characters in my book to help contextualize my story and my Most of whom you anonymize anyway. Most of whom, exactly. I change the names of just about, of as many people as I could possibly could just to avoid dragging people into my mess. Yeah, it's not intended to be an expose. No, absolutely not.

Absolutely not. And so, but there are people that are sort of like kind of taking it, taking me to task or the media or kind of nasty to that. And so be it. I mean, it is what it is. Just with respect to oversight though, like I think the magazine was doing well.

This was the thing, you know, and maybe this- And it's doing well, they're leaving you alone. They were leaving me alone. It was a time of crazy expense accounts and you're like, you know, and it's living in a hotel basically, right? And taking town cars everywhere. Yeah, I mean, this was that world at the time.

And no one was paying attention if- It hitting your goals or exceeding them even. And we were doing really nicely. And so no one was going to sort of jump in and be like, hey, what's going on here? There was no reason to. And I had a ton of autonomy. And that's that, you know, and, and incidentally, it's sort of, I wouldn't blame or hold anyone accountable for lack of oversight anyway, you know, like I was making choices and, and, and, I, so this all goes circles back to my, my, my then wife who was pregnant, you know, at the time with our oldest son. taking all of these pills. And I think did an incredibly brave thing, which I'm grateful for every day, which was like, hey, like, I love you,

but you need to get out of this house and you need to deal with this, but you can't do it here. I'm six months pregnant. I can't have it around me. And I am really grateful for that and I respect that. And I think it was a really smart thing for her to do. And I went down to my mom's house and got sober,

spent two weeks down there and, I'm home mom. Yeah, here I am. There's nothing quite like being a, you know, like a 35 year old man or person and, and going back to your mom's house and basically just sort of like crumbling to pieces, you know, which is precisely what happened. And I got sober. I was down there for two weeks. I attended my first 12-step meeting. I called the doctors. Someone in my life, in my childhood that I grew up with who was sober said, hey, you need to tell on yourself.

You need to call these doctors. And I was like, yes. I was in it. I was like, this is the new me. Cut off the source. And I'm going to cut it off of the source, you know? And I called, you know, I was probably seeing three or four doctors at the time and I called all of them except for one. So-

A stash. Even in that moment of feeling amazing about where I had, you know, where I was, how I was starting to feel and being like, oh, wow, like I'm through the physical stuff. I held back and had to re-engage with my life in New York. I had a big job that I was away from for two weeks. I had a pregnant wife that I needed to figure out a path forward with. And

after all the sort of crap that I had put her through and, um, I was like, all right, I'm going to go back to New York. I had been enrolled in a, in an outpatient recovery facility in New York city to go to like, you know, meet meetings, you know, probably every day or four times a week. Um, and on the way back, I'm on a train, I'll get on that Amtrak train and from, from Baltimore to New York, and I call and I get a prescription and it's waiting for me at a pharmacy. And I get off the train, I go right to the pills. And I took them for a day. Cunning, baffling, and powerful. for a day.

Cunning, baffling, and powerful. The most cunning, baffling, and powerful. And it isn't such a powerful disease addiction is that even while I was in Baltimore, I made this split second decision while I was calling these doctors to eliminate, to hold back. Hold one back. To hold one back.

Have that out. That's how powerful it is. I'd gone through so much. I was out to everything. My wife had kicked me out. My pregnant wife had kicked me out. All of this stuff, it didn't matter. I made the decision in a blink of an eye to do that.

And I went back to New York and I took pills for a day and then I stopped. And that was it. That was October 12th, 2007. I went back to New York and I took pills for a day and then I stopped. And that was it. That was October 12th, 2007. And your son was born shortly thereafter, right? He was, he was born in January of 2008, just three short months from the time that I got sober.

Yeah, that idea of like, what's your bottom? I mean, the demoralization of filling that script and taking those pills after that commitment that you made to yourself. I mean, they always say like, you know, if you wanna like really ruin your drinking and using, like get a head full of AA and then use. And it's just like, you just, you've never felt worse

and more ashamed of yourself when you do that. Yeah, and that's the beauty of it. Yeah. Right. Because it hopefully gets you to come back. And in this case, for me anyway, it did. But- 2007, sober ever since. Sober ever since. So 12, 13 years. It's October. So in October of 20, it'll be 13 years. So I celebrated 12. Yeah, it's wonderful.

It's wonderful. It has changed my life with the same sort of force that that cartwheel did. Because I live in gratitude now, you know, and I, I'm really grateful to be here cause I shouldn't be. And, um, you know, this, this opiate addiction kills 130 people a day. There are 130 opiate related overdose deaths every day. And, and I'm, I'm, uh, I'm, I'm a miracle and I know that. And, um, I try to try to be grateful for it every day. Um, I try to do a gratitude list actually every day. I am, I have this email chain that I'm on with about 10 other guys. And we just hit reply all and list the things that I'm grateful for. And I'm super grateful for so many basic things

that I used to take for granted, or I used to see normal, quote unquote, normal people do all the time. Basic stuff like take the trash out and open the mail and pay bills and shave, things like that, you know, that I just never did. You know, I never made them a priority. They were burdensome things to do, these simple things, these small little things. And now I'm sober 12 plus years. And now I'm sober 12 plus years. And I kid you not, I still, when I take the garbage out, when I open my mail, when I shave, which I do almost every day, I'm still incredibly grateful for the fact that I'm doing those things. And I, in my mind, celebrate them ever so briefly as small victories. They are wins for me because I shouldn't be here to do any of these things. And shaving is one that is particularly meaningful to me because I had gotten to a point as an active addict where I didn't want to shave because I couldn't stand to stand in front of a mirror and see myself, which you have to do in order to shave your face. And so now I shave every day and I feel really good about it.

Yeah. That's beautiful, man. You know, it's true. I think one of the, you know, one of my favorite things about your story and something that I relate to is your embrace of the traditional path of 12-step and how much you appreciate what the program has offered you and how it's changed your life and how you've been able to maintain your involvement in the program

at a very immersive, highest priority level. And I suspect that if you were still editing Details Magazine, there would be articles in the magazine about, ayahuasca and new protocols and treatments for addiction and everything we thought we knew about addiction is wrong. And look, I'm somebody who got sober in a treatment center and showed up at AA in Los Angeles

and just basically went in full bore, you know, and it's still, you know, the most important thing in my life. And it's just interesting to over the years, like, you know, I got sober in 98, like to see these trends kind of come and go and how people respond to what worked for me and are always kind of coming up with new and different ways. And it's like, all I know, man, is that like AA works. Right. It's been a miracle in my life.

Like, the arc of my life is absurd and I am privileged to be able to sit across with and participate in a community of people where I see broken people come in and they are welcomed and embraced and loved and cared for in the most selfless way. And I've seen lives change in the most dramatic ways possible. And like, that's my experience. I don't know what else to tell you, man. You know what I mean? And again, you can only share your experience, right? I can't say, else to tell you, man. You know what I mean? And again, you can only share your experience, right? I can't say, hey, this is the right way to do it and this is the

wrong way to do it because I actually don't believe that there is a right way and a wrong way. Yeah. And I don't have an opinion. I have friends that have gotten sober in different ways too. So do I. So do I. And that's fine. And that's awesome. That's amazing. There are lots of different paths to recovery. All I can say is that for me, the 12-step program and specifically AA is what does it for me. to me because, and I do it still to this day, you know, I try to get to two or three meetings a week, you know, if I can, and sometimes more if I have the ability to do more. It's incredibly, incredibly important for me because I like the way that I approach my life now. And I am far from perfect. God knows I'm far from perfect. But I am present.

I try to stay healthy. I try to be accountable for my shit, for my actions, for my behavior. These are things that I was a blamer. I would point the finger at anyone and everyone. Now I take stock in what I've done to contribute to kind of where I am or some situation or argument or whatever the case may be. And for me, that's been with the help and support of the 12-step program and the fellowship of men and women who are in the 12-step program. And so, like I said, there's no one path, but this has been my path and it's been pretty stellar.

It really has. How do you think about the tradition of anonymity now being somebody who's written a book about this and is somebody who is of the media? My thoughts on this are actually sort of evolving as we speak. Um, I believe in anonymity. I think,

I think it's a very individual, uh, I think it's a, it's a big decision if you choose to break your anonymity and, and, and speak openly about your, your recovery. Um,

uh, I think that, um, we, we live in a culture that I think the stigma is real. And I think it's important for me to say that. And I'm hoping, as are others who speak publicly about their addiction and alcoholism, to destigmatize this. And we know that this isn't a moral failure.

This is a condition. This is part of the human condition. This is a disease. And I think it's been categorized as such by the American Medical Association. This is a real thing. This isn't a lack of willpower. This isn't someone that just can't get it together, man. Come on. Like it isn't though. It's not that. Um, and so lots of people have come, come out and, and, and disclosed, um, that they're addicts or, or alcoholics. And, and, and I think, uh, and I'm happy to have done it. And I'm happy to have written this book and share my story in an effort to show people that either are struggling with this or it's touching their lives in some way that there is hope. Because I truly believe, and we hear a lot of people say this, if I can do it, meaning find sobriety, anyone can. That said, I think the stigma is real. And I think that, um, there are people out there

that are like, will publicly be like, oh man, awesome. You wrote this book. That's super brave. And I know this is going to help a lot of people. Um, you know, but, uh, but I think privately are, are, are judging. I really do believe that not everyone, of course, you know, but I, I just, I think that this is going to be a tough nut to crack, you know, I really do. And, and again, I'm, I'm sharing my story to help crack that nut, if you will, you know, but, but I, I think, I think in 2020, like the stigma is real, you know, and I encourage people to ask for help, you know, and if you, I was terrified to ask for help. I didn't want to lose this plum job that I had, which by the way, I kept for an additional eight years after I got sober. But I was terrified I was going to lose that.

I didn't want to lose my marriage, you know, and I ultimately ended up getting divorced. But in that moment, I was about to be a dad. I didn't want to lose that. And I didn't want people to judge me. I didn't want people to go, and as have others, of course, to work toward destigmatizing this addiction. What is your sense of what can be done about the opioid crisis? I mean, it's dark. It is dark and it is devastating communities, whole communities in this country. And it's really sweeping across our country in an incredibly powerful way. I think we need to talk about it. And I think we have to be careful also, right? We're in an election cycle. So we hear it come up at debates and we hear, yes, we're going to fight this opioid epidemic and yes, we're going to crush it and, and we're hard at work on it. And, and, and,

and that to some degree may be true. And I think it's nice that it's being mentioned. I think it's important that it's being mentioned, but I think in order to really see an impact, to make an impact here, we have to do a number of things. I think we need to focus on prevention. I think we need to focus on education. I think we need to focus on treatment. I think we need to, I, you know, as you pointed out, you know, had the luxury and the privilege. I had, I've had a privileged life and I know that, and I don't make excuses for that. privileged life. And I know that, and I don't make excuses for that. But I understand that. I'm really aware of that. And I'm aware of the fact that even getting sober, I had a family,

a mom and a family, a mom and a dad and a brother and a stepfather and all these people that opened their arms and brought me home. Including David Copperfield, which we didn't talk about. Including the magician David Copperfield. That's a high privilege. Yeah, David Copperfield, come and stay at my place. Factors heavily into my story. I had that. I had the ability to go to an outpatient program. So with respect to treatment, I really believe that it can't be easier to get the drug than it is to get the treatment. And in a, and in huge portions of this country, that's precisely the case. It's just so much easier to find more drugs than it is to find treatment. And so there need to be strong treatment options across this country, even if it's peer-based treatment, you know, 12 step, whatever the case may be, where people can go to get help

and don't have to spend and don't have to do anything. I had the luxury of being able to do that. There are people that go off to incredibly expensive rehabs and they can afford to do that or have insurance that covers that. And that's wonderful. And I encourage you to do that if you have the resources to do that. But creating treatment options that are available to everyone that is impacted by this in this country. Because this opioid epidemic is impacting everyone. It doesn't discriminate. It's the great equalizer, man. I was a New York City media executive, grossly overpaid.

I had a great life. That didn't matter. It's impacting absolutely everyone. And there are those that need treatment options that don't get them. So I think that's really important. And I think, you know, federal appropriations need to sort of be earmarked for that. And they need to be long-term, not like, yeah, we're going to throw a couple years worth of funding here and see where things go. And we're going to, you know, I think this is real and it is incredibly, incredibly

hard to stop. Yeah. I think one of the things Dr. Drew said in your conversation was we need to make treatment as available as the drugs themselves, right? Like it needs to be freely available and accessible. I mean, out here in Malibu, I think Malibu has the highest percentage of like halfway houses and rehabs of anywhere in the country. But so many of them are real estate plays. Like they get these fancy houses

and they know that they can rent these rooms out at an insane price. And it just becomes these profit centers that really aren't rooted in, you know, the proper motivation to help people and help people that can't afford this kind of thing. Or on top of that are at times staffed by people that aren't as qualified as they need to be to offer that help. Yeah, 100%. What is your daily kind of, you talked about your gratitude list and, and, you know, going to a couple of meetings a week, but like, what is the daily

practice for you? So the daily practice for me starts with gratitude. Like I said, I think, you know, I, I am grateful for every day that I have because I really don't think that I should still be here. And so I, a minute and take stock of that, you know, or at least try to every day. I'm working toward, I almost just told you a lie. I was like, I meditate every day. Like, no, I don't. But just right there, like that instance of you almost saying something and catching yourself, like that's sobriety. Yeah, yeah, right.

I mean, calling myself out on my own bullshit, right? To thine own self be true. Like it starts with, it absolutely must start with being honest with yourself, right? And that to me is everything, you know? Like, am I being a good human today? You know, like, am I, um, engaging in meaningful ways with people? And am I apologizing if I owe someone an apology?

Am I judging someone when I shouldn't be judging them? Because Jesus, the Lord knows, like, who am I to judge? Right. Um, so it's just sort of like keeping myself in check. So, so right. I don't meditate every day. I don't come close to meditating every day, but I am trying to bring meditation into my life more and more because it is like a game changer when, when, when I'm try to take some time to have like a strong spiritual connection and just sort of acknowledge that like I'm here for a reason. I try to be super present now. I was never present. I lived a life of not showing up in any way, emotionally, like physically. I just was never there. And so I try to be present in every way that I possibly can today and show up for people when I say I'm going to show up for them. Addiction is lonely and terrifying at times. And so if I can be present for people, if I can be present for myself, and more than anything else, I'm present for my kids. Man, I'm a sober dad, right?

So you have three kids, right? I have three sons, and they've only ever known me'm a sober dad right and you have three kids right i have three sons and they've only ever known me as a sober man and that is like the greatest gift of sobriety for me and i i i work i work to to earn that and deserve that every day being a dad is why i believe i was given a second excuse me it's hard for me i can't even get emotional, is why I believe I'm here. And so I try to be super, super present for them. I try to eat healthy when I can, you know? I mean, I sort of like don't wanna open that can of worms with you.

Your diet during the heavy pill popping phase is insane. Yeah, it was really out of control and it was really unhealthy and could have killed me just as quickly as the addiction could have. I was microwaving Ben and Jerry's ice cream. And just chugging it right from the container, you know? So, you know, I try to be healthy, man.

And I try to stay small, you know? I try to live small, you know, I try to, to, to, to live, like about uh sitting down with someone else in recovery who'd been an old timer you know and she's new and fucking miserable and missing her old life and she sits down at this restaurant with this person says like how like what's your life like today and and and i mean i'm completely bastardizing her beautiful this chapter in her book but and this and this woman says, I have a nice little life. And at first Laura's like, who wants that? You know, I have a nice little life now. And I'm, you know, so thank you for that, Laura.

And I'm, you know, I'm good. Beautiful. In writing the book, who were like, you know, there's a whole genre of, you know, addiction yarns out there, like some good, some not so good. Like I would imagine like Burroughs was an influence for you. Well, I will say when I was writing the book, I stayed away from them because I didn't want to be overly influenced in any way, be influenced by what I was reading. And so I, I purposely kept, kept away from them. Um, that said it, there are people that have written, I think quite beautifully about beautifully about addiction and about recovery. And certainly

Augustine Burroughs is one of those people. I think Augustine has done it also with great humor, which I think is important. But there's so many great works out there. David Carr, I think, did it masterfully. And there are others, Mary Carr. There are many others. And what was the motivation in writing this book now? I mean, you've been sober for a while at this point. Like, how did this come about? I had heard of all of the vast riches that befall authors. Yeah. The ultimate get rich quick scheme. Exactly.

I just, I felt like I had stories to share. If for no other reason, I wanted to just put them down on paper to share with my kids one day. I started writing them and it turned into a book. Um, I think, I think it's, I think it's really important for people to just know that there's a path out. And I, and, and because when I was actively using, I would look at these books and I would hear stories. would look at these books and I would hear stories. I remember really quite vividly being an active addict and like just being zonked out on pills and like sitting on my sofa with probably like a cigarette, like burning down to my knuckles, you know, and, and, uh, you know, empty, you know, Ben and Jerry's containers, you know, around around me like it wasn't pretty um uh and watching like on some entertainment tv show entertainment tonight or something like that

like this celebrity like going into rehab you know and i remember 30 days later sitting on that sofa i had moved but it would look like i hadn't and and seeing the report so-and-so out of rehab and, you know, you know, openly publicly addressing for the first time, you know, their, their new recovery and thinking, oh my God, like I could have done it in these 30 days. In that period of time where you hadn't moved. I could have, I could have done it. And I would feel worse and worse about myself, you know, because I wanted to stop. I was ready. I really was desperate to stop. So my point is I think people sharing their stories helps.

It didn't help get me off that couch. It didn't help me from – stop me from going to getting the next series of prescriptions. But the seed was planted. Yeah, it was a domino in that process. It was. Right. So if my book can be that for someone, I think that that's important. I also think that it's important for people

that don't know addiction, that haven't lived with it or been exposed to it through a family member or a loved one, just to see a glimpse into what it looks like. And so that was part of the motivating factor also. It was like, hey, take a look at how awful this can get and try to understand that this is really all consuming. And this book will give you a glimpse of that. Well, with 130 people dying every single day from this very condition, none of us are more than one or two people away from somebody who is currently suffering from this. So the time is now for this conversation more than ever, and the need for solutions begins with understanding.

And the need for solutions, you know, begins with understanding. And understanding means, you know, wrapping your head around the experience of what it is like to endure something like this. So I applaud you for writing the book. And I think the best way to land this plane is to have you kind of speak to the addict who perhaps is listening right now, that person who might be on the couch, you know, with some Ben and Jerry's containers listening to this, but unsure about what that first step looks like. I think that that first step looks like acknowledging that you are an addict. And for me, I struggled with that for a long time.

And then I eventually acknowledged that I was an addict while I was still using. And I used for a while longer after that. But to acknowledge, I mean, to really simplify it, to acknowledge a powerlessness over this addiction, there's nothing that you, it's not going to go away on its own. And you need to step up and say, okay, I'm ready. You have to be ready and you have to step forward and say, okay, I'm ready. You have to be ready and you have to step forward and say, I'm ready. And I think that's the most important first step is to acknowledge it and to reach out and ask for help. You don't have to do it publicly. You don't have to tweet about it or post about it,

but you should reach out and ask for help because you cannot do it alone. It is incredibly difficult to do it alone. And I, I try. Everybody tries first. Yeah. They try it until they realize it's not going to work. It's not going to work. So, so my advice to that person would be, okay, let's own this. Like this is where you are. And, and let's ask for help because help is there. And, and, and I was, was welcomed into a community of people, into the recovery community in ways that I never, ever thought would have been possible. And just the pure realization that your situation is not unique, right?

Like there's this idea like that whatever you're enduring and, is something that no other human being could possibly understand. That's, that's a fact, right? That you're, you're there and you're, you are thinking to yourself, I understand that people get sober from this. I understand people have done it, but no one is as bad off as I am. And, and it, no one like, you know, it, it hasn't gotten this bad with anyone else on the face of the earth. And so it's pointless for me to, to step forward and say, okay, I'm going to go ahead and, and, and take some action here. And that's just absolute bullshit, right? Like we are run of the mill garden variety, dime a dozen drug addicts, whether or not, you know, like that's, what's at the core of my book, quite frankly, is that there's all this weird, crazy stuff. I had access to all of

these people and, and, um, David Copperfield and, and right. You're the ultimate, like, don't you know who I think I am? And this mashup of, of like, you know, sort of an overinflated ego with massive insecurity. Absolutely, that's precisely what I was. But at its core, I'm a common drug addict, and it's an incredibly common story. And there is a path out, but no one else can put you on that path. You have to be willing to say, okay, I'm ready to sort of start my walk down this path.

And no one can say it for you. I can't say it for you. Parents can't say it for you. Wives, children, husbands, it's not gonna happen until you're ready to say, all right, let's do this. Right, and so what about the person who's listening who has that person in their life that's suffering

and they feel powerless to help that person? I mean, I get tons of emails like this, like, I don't know what to do, my spouse, my boyfriend, my girl, whatever. I get a lot of those emails, yeah. And it's like, you kind of spoke to it already, it's about willingness. And willingness is something that you cannot compel

in another individual. Short of their willingness, you're pretty limited in how you can show up for somebody in this situation. You are, it's an awful position to be in to watch someone that you love and care about slowly kill themselves because that's precisely what's happening and worse, hear them deny it and get angry at you for suggesting it, you know.

So I have a tremendous amount of love and respect for the people that are in the lives of addicts and stay in those lives and continue to be loving and supportive. And I admire that and I'm grateful, so grateful that there are people out there like that. I think it's incredibly important to, to make sure that you're not enabling an addict. You know, it can be really easy to do that. And I don't recommend doing that, but I also don't recommend shutting them out of your life. I think there's, there's, there's some in between and that's where you should live. Be supportive, don't stop loving.

And take care of yourself in the meantime. And absolutely, you know, right, as you say, anytime you get on a plane, you know, make sure your oxygen mask is on first before you, you know, go to help others. Like take care of yourself. And that is incredibly important. others, like take care of yourself. And, and that is incredibly important. Um, but listen, um,

you know, uh, call them out on their shit also, you know, um, forgive the language, but like, don't just see, see behavior that is telling and off and ignore it, you know, call them on it. Don't do it in an aggressive way, but call them on it. Let them know that you're onto them. They're gonna deny it. They're gonna lie to you, but be loving and supportive, but don't let them get away with it. A hundred percent. We did it.

We did it, man. It was good. Yeah, it was great. I thought it was pretty good. How do you feel? I feel really good. I feel all right. I feel really good.

I feel like- You don't feel like you did when you sat next to Dr. Drew on that flight? And he killed your high? You feel all right? I feel really good. You don't feel like you did when you sat next to Dr. Drew on that flight? And he killed your high? He was the ultimate buzzkill, Dr. Drew. I think the only thing that could make this even one notch better would be a little Rick Springfield to just take it.

Well, there's a guitar behind you if you wanna play it and sing it, you're more than welcome to. Next time. All right, man. Thanks. So the book is called As Needed for Pain. As I said, I love a good addiction yarn and I'm not done with this book yet. I'm just cracking into it, but it's quite a yarn. So congratulations on it.

I think it's gonna help a lot of people. Check it out. Even if you just wanna read about stories with rock stars in the back of limos or, you know, trying to cop heroin in MacArthur Park. And I mean, there's a lot of banana shit in this book and it's super entertaining, but also really speaks to the heart of, you know, what this disease is and how to see your way through it. So thank you for your service. Thanks a lot, man. I appreciate it. All right, man. And if you want to connect with Dan,

what's the best way? At Dan Perez NY on Twitter? So, right. So at Dan Perez NY. I did it wrong. That's all right, man. I said Perez. It happens all the time.

Here's the other thing. Like you didn't read your audio book. I know I didn't. And the guy says Perez. I know. And I'm like- And I know it's Perez. I have such an issue with that,

but it is what it is. Why didn't you read your audio book? You know, I, HarperCollins was like, we really want to have an actor do this. And I was like, okay. They told me that too. And I was like, no way. And my editor was like, if you really want,

but we recommend. And I was like, all right, whatever. And so I should have. But so it's Dan Paris. So at Instagram, it's Dan underscore Paris, paris uh so at uh instagram it's uh dan underscore paris p-e-r-e-s and twitter it's at dan paris also p-e-r-e-s-n-y um and uh yeah that's where i am all right cool man and jeff we missed you yeah jeff next time we'll do it all three of us together all right peace time we'll do it, all three of us together. All right, peace. I warned you, right? I told you

it was powerful. What an incredible story. I just want to thank Dan again for his courage, his strength, his hope, his willingness to share his incredible story of despair and salvation in service to those that still suffer. And if you find yourself stuck in some version of Dan's story in this cycle of addiction, please, please reach out for help. Do not try to do this alone. You can find an AA meeting in your area by going to aa.org. And you can also call the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services National Helpline 24-7 at 1-800-662-HELP. Meanwhile, pick up Dan's new book, As Needed for Pain. It's really a great read. And visit the show notes on the episode page at richroll.com to learn more about everything Dan Paris and the subjects and topics that we discussed today. If you'd like to support

the work we do here on the show, subscribe, rate, and comment on it on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube. Share the show or your favorite episodes with friends or on social media. And you can support us on Patreon at richroll.com forward slash donate. I want to thank everybody who helped put on the show today. Jason Camiolo for audio engineering, production, show notes, and interstitial music. Blake Curtis and Margo Lubin for creating the video version of the show and all the short clips that we spread around on social media. Jessica Miranda for graphics,

Allie Rogers for portraits, Georgia Whaley for copywriting, DK for advertiser relationships, and theme music by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Hari Mathis. Thanks, you guys. See you next time. Peace, plants. Namaste. Thank you.