The Rich Roll Podcast - Dean Karnazes Is Running For Good: Lessons On Longevity & Embracing Discomfort

Episode Date: November 7, 2019

Gracing us with his beautiful presence for a third appearance on the show, my guest today is none other than the legendary ultra-marathon man himself. For those who missed RRP 115 and/or RRP 259, Dean Karnazes is an internationally recognized endurance athlete, New York Times bestselling author, and philanthropist globally lauded for his preternatural ability to push his body and mind to limits inconceivable to mere mortals. Among his many palmerès, Dean has: * Run 135 miles across Death Valley in 120+ degree temperatures several times; * Run for 350 continuous miles, foregoing sleep for three nights; * Run a marathon to the South Pole in negative 40 degrees. * Run a 200-mile relay race solo, racing alongside teams of twelve — on ten different occasions; and * Run 50 marathons, in all 50 U.S. states, in 50 consecutive days, finishing with the New York City Marathon, which he ran in three hours flat In addition to his many feats of mind-bending athletic prowess, Dean's first book, Ultramarathon Man not only personally inspired my path, it put the previously sequestered subculture of ultrarunning on the map, laying the foundation for the sport’s explosion in popularity over the last decade. In recognition of Dean's accomplishments, Time magazine named Dean one of the “Top 100 Most Influential People in the World.” Men's Fitness hailed him as one of the fittest men on the planet. And Dean has been profiled in virtually every major publication, including features on 60 Minutes, The David Letterman Show, CBS News, CNN, BBC, ESPN, The Howard Stern Show, NPR's Morning Edition, and many others. Most importantly, Dean is an overall stellar human, leveraging his copious talents for good. Picking up where we left off three years ago, this conversation focuses on Dean's latest book, Running for Good: 101 Stories for Runners & Walkers to Get You Moving. An inspirational collection of personal anecdotes, it chronicles the physical and mental health benefits of hitting the road or the trail. More importantly, these stories demonstrate the power of running to catalyze a better world for all. In addition, we discuss how his Greek heritage informs his running. His experience running the Silk Road. How he perceives his role in the global growth of ultrarunning. The power of embracing discomfort. And many other topics of interest. A dear friend and mentor, I'm delighted to once again share Dean's grace, wisdom and experience with you today. Peace + Plants, Rich

An ultramarathon's a war. The battle is the elements, is the mountain you're facing, and you throw yourself into it, and it, I don't know, there's something, it tears you down, right? But there's just something so raw and visceral about succeeding and just keeping going. There's something about that. You know, someone has said that without war,

you don't know if you're a coward or a hero. And this is your war, right? Everyone wants to fight and see what they're made of. And this is the test. This is where you get to see, you know, nothing holds a mirror to you like running, right? Especially long distances. You see exactly who you are. It's human. It's very human. It's a very human instinct. And unfortunately, like when you travel across this country, so many people are so far removed from that. I mean, they don't have a relationship with their body, first of all. And that's horrible.

And they've kind of just got, I think, sucked into this whole world of comfort, thinking that's going to make them happy. And you're bombarded with messaging from marketers and ads saying just that, you know, buy this luxury vehicle and you're going to be happy. And it doesn't work. It just doesn't. That formula doesn't work. And I think more and more people are starting to recognize that. That's Dean Karnazes.

And this is The Rich Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey, everybody. How you guys doing? What's happening? My name is Rich Roll. I am your host. This is my podcast.

Welcome. My guest today is the legendary ultra marathon man himself, Dean Karnazes, gracing us with his beautiful presence in this, his third appearance on the show. Check out RRP 115 and 259 if you missed them the first time around for our previous two conversations. For those unfamiliar, Dean is an internationally recognized endurance athlete, New York Times bestselling author, and philanthropist known for pushing his body and mind to inconceivable limits. Among his many Palmares, Dean has run across Death Valley in 120 degree temperatures, which I can personally attest to having helped crew him on one of his many 135 mile bad water

adventures. He has run for 350 continuous miles foregoing sleep for three nights. He has run for 350 continuous miles, foregoing sleep for three nights. He's run a marathon to the South Pole in negative 40 degrees. On 10 different occasions, he's run a 200-mile relay race solo, racing alongside teams of 12. And he's run 50 marathons in all 50 states in 50 consecutive days, finishing with the New York City Marathon, which he ran in three hours flat. In addition to his many feats of mind-bending athletic prowess, I think it's fair to say his first book,

Ultramarathon Man, not only personally and quite directly inspired my path, it put the world of ultramarathon running on the map, laying the foundation for the sport's explosion in popularity over the last decade. In recognition, Time Magazine named Dean one of the top 100 most influential people in the world. Men's fitness hailed him as one of the fittest men on the planet. He has been profiled in virtually every major publication and has been featured on 60 Minutes, David Letterman, CBS News, CNN,

ESPN, The Howard Stern Show, NPR's Morning Edition, the BBC, and many other outlets. Most importantly, Dean is an overall stellar human. He's a dear friend, and I can't wait to share this conversation with all of you. But before we dive in, a few shout outs to our sponsors. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care,

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Life in recovery is wonderful. And recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. Okay, Dean. We talked about a lot of stuff. We talked about the fact that this is his third appearance on the show. We recap his Badwater race and my experience crewing for him.

We talk about his books and his latest book, Running for Good. His amazing Silk Road adventure and his relationship with the State Department. We talk about the growth of ultra running and his role in the sport, how he thinks about and perceives himself in the context of this growing community of ultra endurance enthusiasts and many other topics of interest. I love this guy. So this is me and Dean Karnazes. Good to see you, my friend. Hey, it's good to be back, Rich. Thanks for having me on again. Always a delight to have you on. This is your third appearance on the podcast, but it's been like almost three years since the last time you came on. Yeah. The first time we

went into your whole backstory in detail. So for people that are newer to the show, definitely check that out. The second one was mostly about your Sparta book and that whole experience. And now we're in a new chapter, but we have a lot to catch up on. You've done a lot since I've seen you last. We both have. Yeah. That's right, man. We're still standing. Yeah. We are somehow. I don't know, but you haven't aged a day. So whatever you're doing is working. I'm telling you, it's killing me, but I'm keeping up.

I don't know if it's killing you. I think it's making you younger. What is the secret? Like longevity is one thing that I definitely want to explore with you. So you're what, 56 now? 55? I'm getting up there. You're getting up there.

Okay. You don't want to say? Come on. Well, chronologically, I now, 55? I'm getting up there. You're getting up there. Okay, you don't want to say? Come on. Well, chronologically, I'm above 55 chronologically, but biologically I'm in my 30s. You look great. You're as fit as ever. You're still getting after it like crazy,

doing all kinds of crazy adventures and stuff. Well, you know the blue zones. Yes, I do. So one of them is an island in Greece called Ikaria, where Icarus, the wax wind landed, and that's the island my mom is from. So Ikaria has the highest concentration of centenarians on earth. So maybe that has to do with it.

Maybe the genetic lineage plays into this a little bit. You're always crediting your genetics, but lifestyle is a big aspect of that. I mean, one thing all the blue zones share in common are these various principles that have nothing to do with genetics and everything about how everybody lives day to day. And you seem to be able to create your own

little blue zone up in Marin. I mean, you don't own a car, do you? Don't own a car. You don't own a car. You pretty much run everywhere. You keep your life very manageable. I remember when we first met, and you've been like a mentor to me over the years in many, many ways.

That was a paid endorsement, people. Yeah, you've been like a huge, in addition to being a great inspiration to me, you've been very helpful to me and have always been somebody I can count on with great advice. And I believe, if recollection serves me, that I was asking you, this is the very beginning of me starting out and trying to figure out how to make a vocation out of doing the things that I love. And you were sharing about your, basically your experience and you said,

like one thing you learned in the corporate world is that you didn't really wanna manage people. And so, and I remember that very vividly because now I'm in a situation where I am managing people and I would say it's not my strength. I'm trying to get better. Blake's over there laughing. There are employees laughing at him now, yeah. And I'm trying to get better. Blake's over there laughing. Their employee's laughing at him now. Yeah.

And I'm trying to grow into that and learn that. But that's something that you were very clear about who you are. And you've organized your life to be able to do what you love doing, but also keep it at a certain scale so it doesn't interfere with the things that you love the most. Yeah. And I mean, that involves making choices, right? Yeah, I'm sure you have to say no a lot. You have to say no a lot and you have to actually be content once in a while,

which I'm not very good at being content, but you have to say, look, I've got enough. Like I could make this bigger. It could be something more, but it's gonna take a lot out of me and I don't wanna go there. So these are like personal decisions. You gotta look inward, I think, to make. I just know I'm not good like you. When people are involved, things get weird.

I'll leave it at that. It's all good to other people involved. Is there anything you said no to where afterwards you were like, maybe I should have done that? There's been a couple car deals. Oh, really? Yeah, where I'm like, God, that'd be so nice. People know I don't drive and I haven't owned a car in over a decade.

Volkswagen gave you a car once. I think when I went to your house, you had a car. You were like, I never drive it, but they gave it to me. That's why I felt so disingenuous in that relationship and that sponsorship relationship that I said, I can't keep going on with this. I mean, I'm driving at 1,000 miles a year.

Right. So it's just, I don't think I'm doing a good job promoting because it's not genuine. I mean, let's face it. Right, right. So day-to-day, still like running every day is pretty much front and center. Like walk me through a

typical day in the life when you're not traveling and doing these other various things that you do yeah so yesterday i had a day like a day off and i'm getting ready to go do a bunch of big races so i just uh got up at about not real early like 7 a.m put on a hydration pack, and took off and ran about 50, 55 miles. I was gone all day. Do you map that out and plan? Do you say, okay, this is what I'm going to do today? Or do you just head out and make a decision on the fly, like, I feel good, I'm going to go further, or just kind of feel into yourself?

How does that work? Yeah, no, yesterday I wanted to do a long training run and I thought, let's just see how far you can go before you feel like you're actually damaging yourself. Like how far can you push and still think it's training, not like big recovery afterward. Right. And that just seemed to be the spot.

So I know I wanted to run over to the beach. You've been to my place. Like Stinson over to Stinson. Yeah, Stinson Beach. I wanted to go see the coast. Did that and just felt kind of good it wasn't a fast run Rich it's not like I'm breaking speed records

it was a good long training run I walked a lot on the uphills shuffled along a lot ran pretty hard some of the downhills and just showed back home for dinner after sunset and what are the races that you're getting ready for I'm going back to Greece to do this race called the Spartathlon,

which is a 153-mile race from Athens to Sparta. And then I'm going to fly to Australia from Greece to run the Black Owl 100 in Queensland on the Sunshine Coast. I don't know that race. It's amazing. It's on the Sunshine Coast of Australia. How can I say no to that? So back-to-back, wow, that's amazing. It's on the sunshine coast of Australia. How can I say no to that? Right. So back to back, wow, that's exciting. And why go back to Spartathlon? Just because

that's your home turf? Yeah. I mean, I feel so comfortable in Greece. I almost feel like I feel more at home in Greece sometimes than I do here. And that race has so much lore involved and people want me to come back. I'm doing a speaking gig and they're giving me an award. And so I just can't let it go. That's always good. It'll lure you back, right? Well, it was like bad water. I mean, I've got a different crew this year and I get to experience it through other people's eyes. It's almost like having a child, like everything's afresh. Like you went out to Death Valley with me and you were just, you were amazed by it.

I mean, I could see how you were taken aback and it was all new. And to me, that's exciting cause I've been there 10 times, but to indoctrinate other people is. It was, we haven't talked about that. Like I think Badwater took place after the last time you were on the podcast.

I think. What year was that? See, we are old, aren't we? Yeah, I'm having a I think. What year was that? See, we are old, aren't we? I'm having a senior moment. What year was that, Badwort? Was that 2017? I think it was earlier than that. I think it was maybe 16 or 15.

Well, let's recap it because it was an incredible experience for me. I mean, first of all, I was honored that you asked me to help crew for you. I was delighted to be able to show up for you. And it was an experience like I've never seen before. I knew it was a really hard race, perhaps one of the hardest races out there,

but man, it was really something being there step by step with you throughout the way. And I remember there's a couple of vivid memories that I have about that experience. One of which is when I arrived, I asked Coop, who we're going to talk about because he's in the middle of doing a crazy thing right now. So you know what Coop's doing right now. I know, we got to talk about that.

I was like, so like, what's Dean's, like, how are we doing this? Like, I just figured like in a lot of these ultras, the runner's running and then you kind of pace the person in the last 25% of it, but mostly they're out there and you're just feeding them as they come by or you're leapfrogging with the van. And Jason's like, Oh, he wants someone to run with him the whole time.

And I literally turned white when he said that. I was like, wait, what? The entire time? Cause it wasn't like I train, I hadn't been training that much at that point. I hadn't thought that much about what I was getting involved in. I just said, I'm gonna be handing him water bottles. And then when the reality dawned on me of what,

how taxing this was actually gonna be, I got terrified. And I remember doing, I think it was my first legit pull with you. And it was in the mid to late afternoon. I think we were coming through stovepipe wells. It was the hottest part of the day. And I was just, I was, my heart rate was like 170 running like 10, 30 miles or something like that. And I had to get Jason. I was like, I got to pull, I ran with you for like an hour and you were pulling away from me. I couldn't keep pace. And I was like, Jason, you got to relieve me. And I was thinking, all I was thinking was I'm going to be the only crew member who's going to

end up in the medical tent. This is not a good look. No, it actually happens more often than not that a crew end up in the hospital versus runners. Cause they're looking after like you, you're looking after me like, Hey, I got to support Dean. You might not be thinking about yourself. I mean, I remember you hopped out of the car. You didn't have a hat on or anything. I'm like, God, this rich roll guy's pretty hardcore. I'm thinking he's gonna go shirtless on me maybe. I was not hardcore, I was just unprepared. And now I'm remembering we did talk about this

because when it came to the, I did a long poll with you in the evening. We went like most of the night. And a lot of that was walking, because it was uphill and you were telling me all about the book that you were working on, The Road to Sparta. And that obviously came out

later. I felt better during that point. And we were also, I believe David Goggins was right on your tail for most of that day. And everybody knows how that guy's blown up and is part of the mainstream consciousness now in a really cool way, which is great to see. And that was not an easy race for you. You were struggling. You had a hard time. It certainly wasn't your best performance. But another vivid memory was just how gracious

and kind you were throughout the entire experience. Like not one gruff moment, not one petulant outburst the entire time. I'm a good drunk, I tell people. She's very impressed by that. Well, it's like going drinking with someone. You know, you think you know someone and a couple shots of tequila in,

you see a different side of them. Like, oh, this is not the person I thought they were. I'm a happy drunk. When I'm out there just beat to shit as I was during Badwater, it's all good. Yeah, I mean, when you're, for people that don't know, when you're doing an ultra, like that just, it brings you, it brings out the best and the worst

in people because you're so stripped down, like you're just so raw. So it's not on comp, they say like, never have your friends crew for you because, you know, the dark side of people comes out when all their, you know, sort dark side of people comes out when all their, you know, sort of, um, veneer is stripped away. And I was just, it just, it spoke to me deeply about what kind of person you are and your character. And then I remember when the race

was complete, we went back to the hotel and you were just so wiped. You're like, I can't go to dinner. Like I'm, I'm just wrecked. Like I've never, I don't remember ever feeling this wrecked from a race. Like, I don't know what you're like, I don't know what's going on. I'm like, I can't go to dinner. Like I'm just wrecked. Like I don't remember ever feeling this wrecked from a race. Like, I don't know. You're like, I don't know what's going on. I'm like, dude, you just ran 35 miles. What do you mean you don't know what's going on? But you're like, I can't go to dinner. I'm so sorry.

I'm like, don't worry about it. So we all go to dinner. We come back, we go to sleep. We wake up the next morning. And the amazing thing about Badwater is the little strip of hotels in the main town is right along the course. So you wake up in the morning and you see people still coming in and you're like, wow, man.

And you woke up and you said, I feel great. I'm going to go running. I feel like a new person. I don't know what happened, but I feel totally fine now. Well, I mean, and to your point about being gracious, I mean, think about it. I finished. We went back. I got a good night's sleep.

There are people still out there running and we saw them in the morning and they're still running. I mean, they're out there for so long. I have nothing, you know, I'm complaining it's taken me 32 hours, you know, cause I run it much faster than that. But you know, the broader picture is that I finished bad water and to anyone that's a huge accomplishment. Of course. Yeah. Of course. And it's so uplifting and inspirational to see. I mean, imagine being out there for another 15 hours. Like how hard that's gotta be. And you and your crew and everyone, just insane.

I think, if anyone listening to this wants just a life-changing experience, I would say just go spectate at Badwater. Are you right? I mean, it's about as far away from Earth as you can get and still be on Earth. Yeah. Yeah. And so after that year, they changed the course

because there was some national park changing of the guard. But now they're back to the original course, I think, right? Back to the original course. The only difference is it's now a night start. So the national parks makes them run it at night because you're not allowed to have a race in temperatures above 120 degrees. What attorney came up with that hard mark?

Yeah, I don't know. So the race director is like, well, if we start at night, hopefully it'll cool down to 120 when we start. Is somebody monitoring that? Because it definitely gets up to to 130 it does in the middle of the day yeah you know there's the i think just mean at the start it can't be hotter than that yeah the first wave i think goes out at uh 6 p.m and then 8 p.m and then 10 p.m so it's the cool of the night yeah it's like 100 you know 15 that definitely changes it it does because you're running through stovepipe

wells like you're running through the middle of Death Valley at night. It's a different experience. Yeah, it's not quite the same. That would have been better for me, that experience. So Jason Koop, who was your crew captain that year, and he kind of coaches you a little bit. I don't know if that's still the case, but you guys collaborate or whatever.

He's more like a mentor at this point. I mean, he's just a wealth of endurance, wisdom, and he's gotten back into racing. And so right now he's in the midst of doing this insane race that I'd never heard of called Tour de Gantz. Is that how you say it? I just call it the Tour of the Giants because it's insane. This race, it's in Italy,

and basically you traverse like all the highest peaks in the Alps. You have like a week to do it, it's 205 miles. And over that 205 miles, you have 80,000 feet of elevation gain. And you can, it's not a stage race, like you just, however long you need to do to get it done, you get up to like, I don't know,

six days or something like that. 150 hours. I told Coop use every single second. Are you following the race? What's going on over there? I haven't. I saw on Twitter that he was doing pretty well after like the first day and a half or something like that. But I don't know. Do you know like the up to date? There's been insane snowstorms. I heard yesterday. It's just snow flurries and yeah. Wow. Yeah. And you just, you have to bring all your stuff and you just sleep on the side of the trail whenever you feel like it? Or how does that work? I don't think they call them aid stations.

They call them life support stations every 50K. Life support. Right. Only every 50K. Yeah, it's 31 miles. Someone's saying, well, he just has to cover 31 miles. He can sleep in a hut. I'm like, do you hear how much elevation?

There's only like 15,000 feet of elevation to get to that one. I know, and it's snow flurries. Yeah, you start crunching the math, and it's tough. How many people do that? I think there's over 100 people. I kind of looked through the roster, and I think there's over 100. It's mostly Europeans. Like Koopa's one of the few Americans.

Huh, it'll be interesting to see. I hope he makes it. I mean, I've been. It's mostly Europeans. Like Koopa's one of the few Americans. It'll be interesting to see. I hope he makes it. I mean, I've been following him on Strava. He put in some really big days. Oh, in training. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wild man. Yeah.

I'm surprised you haven't done that one. Yeah, no, I tell my family, like, hold me in check. It's so easy when you look online, right? Just hit enter. Just hit register. There's a little button right there. I hold my hand, like, hold me in check. It's so easy when you look online, right? Just hit enter. Just hit register. There's a little button right there. I hold my hand back. Once you're in, you're in.

So one thing we haven't talked about is your Silk Road adventure. Yeah. So talk to me about how that came together and what that experience was like. So I was contacted by the State Department to be a US athlete ambassador. And it was actually John Kerry when he was in the State Department. He was a big cyclist. And he said, I have this idea that I'd like to celebrate 25 years of diplomatic relations between Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, and Kazakhstan by linking the three together on the ancient Silk Road. The ancient Silk Road passes through all three countries.

And he said, I was gonna try and cycle it, but it's just, it's not gonna work out. What do you think about running it? So it was 525 kilometer run between Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan and Kazakhstan. And I was a diplomat. So I had like diplomatic obligations the entire way. It was a really bizarre experience.

What were those obligations? I spoke at embassies. I spoke at schools. I spoke at municipalities. Yeah. So every day you'd run a certain amount and then you'd have some kind of something on the schedule where you'd have to go talk to people? Rich, I don't know how to describe what I went through. I mean, yeah, exactly. I mean, you're back in like the time of Genghis Khan through parts of this terrain, I don't know how to describe what I went through. I mean, yeah, exactly. I mean, you're back in like the time of Genghis Khan through parts of this terrain, I would imagine. And it was in July. So it was about 110 degrees the first day

and I ran across Uzbekistan. So it's like a desert. Uzbekistan's right above Afghanistan. And I pull into town and I'm wrecked. I've run about 50 miles. There's no ice in our van. The crew is all Russian. They don't speak English. They've never crewed for a run. They just think I'm crazyed. I've run about 50 miles. There's no ice in our van. The crew is all Russian. They don't speak English.

They've never crewed for a run. They just think I'm crazy out there running. I pull into town. There's about 5,000 people along the roadway. When they briefed me, they said, the entire town is going to come out. These people have never seen an American before. Here I come running down the road like Forrest Gump,

literally high-fiving people, and no one speaks English, and I don't speak Uzbeki, so I can't understand a word they're saying. I come into the main square. There's a traditional dance going on. There's music playing. The mayor's there. And they said, when you get into town, they're going to have a feast for you because it's a nomadic culture.

So they greet people, and they're're gonna want you to try everything. So I pull in and there's enough food there for 30 people. I mean, it is a huge spread of food and you're gonna love this. One thing, one of the mainstays there is horse meat. Oh no. So they hand me a plate of horse meat and you're in front of 3000 people, what do you do?

Right. And you eat some horse. Wow. And then they handed me this plate of horse meat, and you're in front of 3,000 people. What do you do? Right. You eat some horse. Wow. Then they handed me this bowl of traditional drink, and it looked like a half a coconut. Imagine a coconut sewed in half, and it was white inside, too. It looked like coconut milk. I thought, oh, it's something refreshing. 110 degrees, 50 miles, I'm going to drink something cool and refreshing.

I drink this stuff, and it's called k Kumis. It's fermented mare's milk. So it's horse milk that's been fermented and it tastes like drinking Parmesan cheese. I mean, it was just the heaviest, most fermented. Was it alcoholic? It was slightly alcoholic. It tastes like drinking sour cream, literally like drinking sour cream. And I was gonna gag. And there's 5,000 people looking at me, the mayor, with their smiles of approval, like this is our traditional drink. What do you think?

Oh my God. What is eating horse meat like? I can't imagine. Well, for you non-vegans, it was pretty good actually. It was real lean and yeah. Was that in the middle of the run or had you concluded the run for the day that was the end of the day and then i went to a big dinner that night with a bunch of dignitaries you know it was like the bad water thing where i'm just you know dead and i'm putting on a suit you know going out to dinner with a bunch of dignitaries

yeah and how so how many miles a day were you doing for that? I would do about 40 to 50 miles a day. Yeah. And people would run, I probably had 10,000 people run with me. Some like the military guys would come out and run with me. School kids would run with me. We had a couple of organized runs

and it was really a phenomenal experience. Passing through some of the villages, obviously in the back countries, they're not runners. I mean, they're more nomadic and they just thought it was the funniest. This guy running down the road, they probably lived there their entire lives, generations have,

they probably haven't seen a single runner. And here's this American guy in this colorful outfit, just running down the road, waving at him. Well, you open up this new book, Running for Good, with a story from that experience. Maybe tell that story. You did your homework. It's such a good, well, it's like the opening chapter of the book,

but it's a great story. I think it encapsulates a lot about the theme of the book, which is running for good, like about community and connection. Yeah. Well, Kyrgyzstan has mountain peaks like serious mountain peaks like 20k mountain peaks so i was running up in the mountains one day and this snowstorm like sleet hail rain um came in and i was totally unprepared and as i was running along the road i was starting to get hypothermia like my fingers were blue all the things that

happened to you when you're getting hypothermia andmia. And there was a yurt on the side of the road and I could see smoke coming out of it. And I saw like a face kind of come out the door and look at me. And I kind of looked at this person and I kind of waved. And then I saw a little couple of kids come out, like, what's going on?

What's up there? And these kids came out and got me and they said, come on. Like they just grabbed me by the hand and brought me down because I was walking at this point, just sh shivering and they had hot tea inside and they gave me hot tea they had blank they put these wool blankets over me it was a yurt right in a yurt right no english no english no ability to verbally communicate and they must have thought i was a

martian i mean they're looking at i'm in colorful running gear. Right, right. Out in the middle. They've never seen an American, let alone a runner. Yeah. And so like, how did you communicate with them? Like, were they able to kind of understand what you were trying to do? Just laughter and no, I just- I mean, you said like the names of the cities, right? And you're kind of like, you know,

trying to wrap their head around. Yeah, so I kind of said, Bishkek, Bishkek, Bishkek, because I knew the name of the city. And they looked at me like, why, you know, does he need a ride or what, you know. Yeah, so I kind of said, Bishkek, Bishkek, Bishkek, because I knew the name of the city. And they looked at me like, why, you know, does he need a ride or what, you know, how's he going to get there? And that kind of went like this, just did the running, you know, arm swing kind of thing.

And they kind of looked at me like, they got it. Like, Jesus, this guy's going to run the Bishkek. And do you have crew waiting for you at destinations along the way? Like if they can't get over the mountain, like how does that work? Or not work. Yeah.

Yeah, and that was another thing. It was Russian. So the language barrier was incredible. The first day I came running into this van, again, it's 110 degrees in Uzbekistan. And it's this van that's horrible for crewing. It doesn't have a sliding door. Like it's regular doors.

So I'm like going in and out of the passenger side trying to get in this van it's just 200 degrees in this van filled with flies no ice and all these russian guys what they would do they'd pull up to the crew spot they'd stop they'd just huddle down in the shade of the van and they'd start smoking oh no so i'd run up to this van with just secondhand smoke and i tried to you know eventually tell them no no cigarettes and they at the end they were running with me like little spurts and they you know they weren't smoking they were really respectful yeah you're like god damn you john carrey um you couldn't get like an american crew or some some guys that know what they're doing to come out with you? Or was it just a budget thing?

No, I had one like handler and he was great, but we were overwhelmed, Rich. We got thrown in this thing and it just kind of took on a life of its own. There were so many variables to manage along with the media. Like we had a media person with us. Trying to manage all these moving parts was just overwhelming. I mean, he just finally just was paralyzed. I saw some short little video clips of it, but did you capture enough to do like a mini documentary

or anything like that from this? You know, the content that was captured is amazing. It was this Russian videographer, and he did a really good job, and he spoke English. And all of the clips are still on the state department website. So it's all there. Yeah. And what, what did you like, I mean, those, that part of the world is so foreign for Americans. We have a sense of what we think it might be like, but what is the reality? You know, what, what did you learn about those cultures? Like literally boots on the ground.

You know, to be honest, I don't know we have it so good here in America. Materially, we're wealthier. They're happier people. They're just happier people. Like every family matters. You're right, I never saw one Starbucks, one McDonald's. I never heard of any,

I heard one British couple speaking. Other than that, I heard no English. The people are more respectful of each other. They look at each other. They say, thank you. They're happier. They're just generally happier. The kids are smiling and laughing.

I mean, when you get into the cities, as usual, there's traffic and honking and all that kind of stuff. But overall, I would say it's just not as aggressive. It's a gentler place to be. Yeah, we always hear these stories time and time again, people that travel to places off the grid and they come back and they're like, they're happy or they don't have anything, but they're happy.

They go to India and people are missing limbs, but they're laughing. And we have this sense of how can we take some of that and incorporate it into our lives? And then there's like a half-life on that sensibility. And it seems to just kind of fade away and we're just back to doing what we're doing, arguing with somebody at Starbucks or whatever. When everyone is doing it around you, it's hard to keep... You get a sense like, if I'm not doing it, I'm missing out. Like I'm going to fall behind or be irrelevant if I'm not tweeting constantly.

They don't have that feeling. There's not that anxiety. And I think we all feel it here. And especially with social media, there's just constant pressure. It's constant. And you really have to be disciplined to step away from that and just say, well, fuck it. I don't care. I'm not going to,

I'm not going to respond to people today. I think you're, you're learning that. Wouldn't you say? Well, I think, you know, it's a, it's a weird relationship that I have to all of this stuff. Like I love what I do. But it also, you know, it can encroach on the other things that I enjoy doing. And it's been such a gift that this show has grown and impacts so many people. And I feel a responsibility to that. And, and there is a joy to it as well. Like there's, there's a few things I'd rather be doing right now than sitting down and talking to you. It's like, it doesn't, it's not, it doesn't feel like work to me, but there's a whole lot of other stuff that goes into trying to create something great that other, that impacts other people. And that gives me a sense of fulfillment, but it can also,

you know, become overwhelming at times. And I have to remind myself like, oh, you know, I asked for this. Like this is, you know, I want to be grateful. I'm not always grateful. Like this is the life that I wanted and now it's all happening. But how do I manage it all and make sure that my finger is on the pulse of the things that are most important and that those things are not being ignored or falling by the wayside? And that can – it gets hard. And social media is an aspect of that. Like I use it to amplify the message of what we're doing here,

but I also can catch myself scrolling mindlessly. So there's a difference between using it for a purpose and having sort of a detached objectivity about it versus using it addictively and in a consumptive way. And I don't know how to strike that balance, but you seem to have figured it out. You have somebody else who handles all that stuff for you? I think you did at one point.

I don't know what you're doing now. No, I kind of do it myself. People, they kind of caught on to it. They're like, hey, it's not your voice. People know. Yeah, they know, they know. They absolutely know. And authenticity is important, I think.

And so if that means you're not posting as much, then so be it. No one's going anywhere. You're living your life. Everyone knows you're out on the trail running 55 miles to and from Stinson Beach. They'll wait for you. You know, I'm probably like you.

I get some really personal messages. I mean, runners feel a connection and people confide in me in ways that is like, I can't step away from it. Like, you know, I get these messages. I'm like, Jesus, really? You went through that? And I start and like, and you're running because you read my book.

How do you not respond to that? I can't like, and that happens all the time. And it's just, I can't walk away from it. I feel like a connection with this person. I feel like I owe them to respond, just a human connection. And that's fine once in a while, but when you're getting like 15, 20 of those messages a day. Yeah, you can't respond to all of them. No, but where do you draw the line is the thing.

Once I read something like that, I'm so engaged. It's like, all right, I'm going to spend 20 minutes at least crafting a nice response to what they're saying and answer questions and everything else. Yeah, I mean, it's a gift to get those and it's a reminder of the why behind what it is that you do. And I think for a lot of those people, it's their way of giving you a gift for what you've already given them. I don't necessarily think that you owe them

like some super long response. Like I think a lot of them, they're probably surprised if you respond like, wow, you actually responded. Like they don't have an expectation for the most part. It's just their way of thanking you for the books that you've written and the work that you do. And, you know, another thing that was palpable about, you know, me kind of tagging along with you at Badwater is I watch you in real time navigate that. Like we go to the banquet before the thing. There's all this stuff around the race and all these people want a minute of your time.

And you were very conscious of making sure that you were present for each of those exchanges. Sometimes at the sacrifice of your own wellbeing and preparation for the race that you're about to run, right? at the sacrifice of your own wellbeing and preparation for the race that you're about to run, right? Like you're willing to allow that to tax you to a certain degree because that's the job. It is, and thankfully to your point,

it's part of my nature. So I just, I'm a giving person. And if it's genuine, when I like make some personal sacrifices for the betterment of someone else, that gives me fulfillment. I've got to be honest. And these messages I get that say I inspire people, it goes both ways.

I get incredibly inspired by people telling me that I inspire them. I'm not sure how I inspire them, but it gives me a sense of purpose almost. Like what I'm doing matters. 100%. 100%. When you wrote the first book, Ultra Marathon Man, the state of ultra running was very different from what it is today. You're partially

responsible for this massive explosion of interest in people pushing their, their limits and their boundaries in various ways. And in creative new ways, we're always seeing new crazy races popping up all over the place. And people are really engaged by this world in a, in a way that didn't exist when you, like you really helped put this on the map like do you look back on that and think wow look what look what's happened since that moment well i know the first year i ran an ultra was 1993 and in north america there are 3500 finishers of an ultra last year there were 115ers. Wow. So the growth has been insane. Yeah.

And yeah, I feel, you know, conflicted sometimes. Yeah. You know, like Western States, the odds of getting into Western States now are less than the odds of getting into Harvard. Right. Literally, there was something like 15,000 applications for 369.

It's always fixed at 369. I mean, it's impossible. Like people are like, I've tried for 10 years. It's always fixed at 369. I mean, it's impossible. Like people are like, I've tried for 10 years. I can't get into Western States. So, you know, that has kind of been a downside, but- Damn you, Dean Garnas for making this so popular. Well, there's such a hardcore, you know, sensibility, you know, with the tried and true community.

Like this was a community that it was just about the love. They're sleeping in tents at the start line. There's 10 people, there's no fanfare, there's nothing. And there's something beautiful about that, the purism of that, that I think gets lost at some of these huge races like UTMB or Western States. But there's still so many other races that are still very much like that. And it's still, you know, I go to Western States and I think this is not the Super Bowl. I mean, everyone's like, oh God, this is the biggest thing ever. I'm like, it's still very grassroots. I mean, this is a freaking finishes in a high school stadium. I mean, you know, it's still to, you know, to people that are just getting into the sport,

You know, it's still, to people that are just getting into the sport, it is fresh and new and novel. And it's, you know, 3 million people ran a 5K in North America last year. So the numbers of runners running an ultra is still a very, very small percentage of overall runners. And it's still very fresh and new to a lot of people. You know, the sport still has a lot of room for growth. Yeah. Well, one of the things I know that's been in the back of your mind for a long time, and we've talked about it in the past,

is this ambitious goal that you have of running a marathon in all 203 countries. And when is this gonna happen, Dean? Oh my God. Come on. People say, do you ever fail? I'm like, I've been- Get John Kerry on the phone and sort out all these visa issues

or whatever it is that's holding you back. That is an ambitious plan that's killing me, but I've been failing for seven years. What is the big roadblock here? Is it just permissions in certain places? No, I've got the plan. I think I can get the permission. It's just lining up the sponsorship,

the money to pull it off and all of that for the right cause at the same time. It's just that everything's got to be aligned perfectly. Well, all you Fortune 500 CEOs out there listening, give Dean a call. Let's get this thing going already. Yeah, and it's going to take a global brand, right? That's another thing. I mean, if you're a domestic brand, you might want to sponsor the US tour, but it's one marathon in the US.

So it's going to have to be a global brand that's really invested in this. Right. Yeah. So getting permission to go to places like North Korea and like you've got that sorted out? The State Department has a list of countries where I can't leave the airport. Sort of like you can set up a treadmill, you can have a treadmill set up in the airport, but you're not leaving the airport. Like we can't get you out of the airport. And that list is kind of dynamic. As you know, global things change. So what's going on with this relationship with the State Department? I'm starting to think maybe you're some kind of spy.

They could, like, dispatch you to all these places. Oh, he's running, but actually he's collecting intel. It's been an interesting relationship. That's a different world, that whole, yeah. What goes on there is a little bit different. And I can't talk a lot about it. Yeah, you're being tight-lipped. I don't know.

I'm going to spin a conspiracy yarn out of this. You're an attorney. They make you sign some shit. That's pretty funny, man. Yeah. Well, you mentioned that you just ran, was it yesterday, 55 miles? Yeah. I mean, you look fresh as a daisy.

What is the, you know, as you start to age, have you had to change your recovery routine? Do you still bounce back like you always have? Or like, what does it look like? How has it evolved? You know, one thing I'm not doing is setting an alarm anymore. So I'm trying to wake naturally whenever I can. So, you know, I applaud you for having this interview in the afternoon because it gives you the whole morning to kind of just regroup.

So I don't set an alarm. Like before I used to sleep for maybe five hours a night and the alarm would wake me up. Now I just sometimes I only sleep four or five hours. Other nights I sleep nine or ten hours and I'm fine with that. So I'm just letting myself wake up naturally. That's helped a lot. Just purity of diet, continuing to refine my diet,

intermittent fasting, all the things that are kind of in vogue right now. I've been doing that for 15 years and I never sit down, Rich. That's why I'm surprised we're sitting here. This is sacrilege. Would you want to stand? We have these really cool ergonomic stools though.

That actually is pretty comfortable. As far as sitting, this is a good one, yeah. Yeah, I mean, one of the things I read is, there's a lot of, we can go down the rabbit hole on like how long after you train are you supposed to eat and what do you eat and how do you make sure that you're accelerating that recovery process, enhancing it as much as possible

so you can bounce back day to day. And one of the things that I know that you do that I've experimented with that I think is very valuable and doesn't get talked about very much is actually you go out of your way to like not do those things because that provides an added stress on the body and an adaptive response that ultimately will make you stronger if you're doing it right so rather than i have to replenish right after my run like maybe let's not do that for a while what will happen if i don't do that i wait

a couple more hours or i wait until dinner or something like that. Maybe I'm not as fresh the next day, but long-term, is this going to make me stronger? I agree. I agree so much. And I also think that not only with diet, but coming home from a long, hard run when you're hot, you just want to hop in the pool, right? Or just hop in the shower. I always say, don't do it. Stay miserable. Just walk around in a miserable state and a hot, you know, your shoes are tight. Everything is miserable. Ride that out because your body's going to adapt to it. Don't just immediately, you know, let that go and make yourself comfortable. Stay uncomfortable for as long as you can. Sometimes I get back from like a long ride or a run. And just because I got kids and responsibility,

you know, like I'll just be in my bib shorts for like four more hours because I'm helping out or doing whatever needs to get done at work or sitting at my computer. And I was like, I should probably shower at some point. Yeah, I think showering. I haven't eaten yet. Showering is overrated, yeah, yeah.

It's not that overrated. I think it is, I don't know, yeah. So what does the intermittent fasting look like it's typically you know uh dinner and then maybe all the way to dinner the next day but a lot of times uh late afternoon you know maybe like i haven't eaten anything today i got up i do drink coffee i love coffee so i had a cup of coffee and i'm fasting right now i'll probably eat when i get back uh home yeah so is that is that something you plan out or you just kind of feel it out and do it once in a while? Or is that like an everyday thing?

I listen to my body as much as I can. So sometimes it's hard to fast because you just want to chew off the back of your hand. You're so hungry. Yeah. And if that's the case, I'll eat something. But now I can go easily. I think people too often say, oh, I've got to eat. I've got to eat, I'm going to die, I've got to eat. You really don't have to eat.

And if you can withhold eating for half an hour, maybe have a glass of water, you get beyond it. I've gotten to the point where it's really not that difficult to just eat only dinner and train during the day. Like I went to the pool today i put in 5 000 i haven't eaten anything today i feel completely fine part of that i think is is after doing this kind of stuff for so many years and you've talked about this a lot like you just become very adapted to it you're very efficient at it you're this fat burning machine like your body is so is so used to these activities that they're just not that taxing.

They're not as taxing as they would be to somebody who's newer to these kinds of pursuits. And I think it does fly in the face of that idea, like, oh, you gotta eat three meals a day. Like, I don't know who came up with that. But I think the danger comes in with a lot of people who can develop eating disorders around this stuff. And I think, you know, in the endurance community,

it's not immune from a lot of people who can hide behind, oh, I'm intermittent fasting or I'm doing this or this diet or that diet when they have a very unhealthy relationship to food. So, you know, I think people have to be really honest with themselves about what their motivations are. I agree. And I think you can look at people and tell, I think you can look at their nails, see if their nails are healthy, if their hair is really brittle. You can tell if someone, you know, has gone beyond a healthy diet into something extreme. And I think when you look at me, I'm pretty healthy guy. You know, it's not like, I don't think it's,

it's too extreme. I don't, you know, I healthy guy. I don't think it's too extreme. I don't stress about not eating. I can eat if I want to eat and I can go without it if I want to go without it. Yeah, I like that. So when you're going out for your 55 miles and you put on the hydration pack, what do you bring with you? I discovered this stuff called Muir Energy. I don't know if you've seen Muir Energy.

They're little packets. They make the best nut butters ever. So it's primarily nut butters. So it's kind of keto. And then water as well or any kind of electrolyte? No, I just drink water along the way. Sometimes, yeah, just water, plain water. I carry a handheld with my hydration pack.

So I've got a lot of water on me. And what's the longest that you'll go out when you don't bring a pack or anything with you? Like you're just going out without a shirt on or whatever? I'll do a marathon, easily a marathon. Yeah, easily, yeah. I kind of like that feeling because you're really, really struggling

to get home at that point. Well, I would urge everybody out there to be cautious about that and work their way up to it. But I do think that when you're out on the trails and you see people that you know are only going out for their 10K or whatever, five miles or something like that, who are just loaded to bear with backpacks that are just filled with like, you know, enough food to feed a family of four on a picnic on the 4th of July. And you're like, what are you doing? You don't need all this stuff.

Don't get me started on that. Go for it, tell me, preach it. Well, I mean, I still do a lot. Like I can still go to a 5K and I'm kind of a thing. Like people know who I am, even though they're not hardcore runners, even a half marathon. And you see these people at the start of a half marathon

and their hydration belt is just filled with 30 gels. You're definitely going to throw up if you eat a lot. They eat them all. They think they need them. They think, well, I got to have so many calories before I start. People still think they have to have pancakes in the morning before a race and they still think they got a pasta load. So there's still a lot of myths out there with people.

Yeah, I mean, you've evolved quite a bit from the days of ordering a pizza while you're out there running to what you're doing now. Well, I mean, I was in, I mean, I carbo loaded. I'm sure you were kind of in that phase too, you were about the same. And that was the thing to do, right? You just load up on carbs.

And I remember just standing at the start of a race, feeling so bloated in the morning at the start because I ate so much pasta the night before. And I thought something's just not right. Like I don't need to do this to my body. And now it's more of a low carb approach that you have. Much more low and lower fiber as well. Like before big race, I really watch,

especially insoluble fiber. You know, there's two types of fiber, insoluble fiber, and the stuff that passes right through you. I try to cut back on that a few days before a race for obvious reasons. Yeah, that has an impact on how many times you got to jump off the trail and pull the pants down, right? Yeah, well, yeah. It's like a two-gravity bridge.

Listen, anybody who's been out on trails, trail running, has had that experience. No, I ran a 50K the weekend before last. And I remember coming into Pantel Station. There's an aid station there. And there's a bunch of people. Hey, Carno. Hey, how's it going? And I just run up and say, where's the bathroom?

I just had to go so bad. And then I came out. I'm like, I'm so sorry. I didn't say hi to anyone. I just went and took a big dump. And they're like, hey, it's an ultra. This is what you do. That's the deal, man.

You know what I mean? That goes with the territory. That's part of the experience. Every runner's been there, right? Right. Well, let's talk about this book, Running for Good. This is your fourth book? This is my second collaboration with the Chicken Soup for the Soul people.

I didn't know you had done another one. Yep. This is the second running book. And this is, if you count Chicken Soup for the Soul, this is my sixth book. Wow. So maybe let's start with talking about the Chicken Soup for the Soul situation altogether. How did that come together? When I was actually in graduate school, one of my professors said, you guys have to read this Chicken Soup for the Soul book. I think it was the original one that came out. He's like, it'll ground you.

It was like required reading. Wow, in grad school? Yeah, this is business school, actually. I was an MBA and I was like, why are we reading this? And I was so enamored with these stories. So the concept of Chicken Soup for the Soul is their books are 101 short stories by 101 different contributors. So it's 101 people that write about being a human and whatever the topic is about. And it's kind of voyeurism. Like you see into someone else's life,

they kind of confess in about three or four pages, some episode of their life. And it was really powerful. And I thought, they've got something here. Obviously, they've sold, I think, half a billion copies. Oh, it's crazy. Yeah, so I mean, obviously, it works. And when they came to me and said, let's do something about running, I thought, this is going to be great. Because my books, both of our books, it's a different audience that we appeal to.

It's not the everyday athlete. It's a more elite sort of thing. And this really was a book that was not just for runners, but for walkers as well. And so I thought this is a great way to help spread the message, kind of evangelize the benefits of running and walking. What was the first one you did with them? It was just called Chicken Soup

for the Soul on Running. It was just a running book. And then you just put together, you collated a whole bunch of stories. Yeah. We had for this book, Running for Good. So the theme of this one is how has running brought good to your life? And we know that could be through a charity run. It could be through losing hundreds of pounds. It could be through overcoming PTSD through running. So it's created good in your life, and that's the focus of this book. We received about, I think, 1,500 submissions. And again, it's 101 stories. So it was really hard to go through and curate and determine which ones made the final cut.

you know, curate and, you know, determine which ones made the final cut. Well, what's great is that it allows you to continue telling stories about running without making it about you. You know what I mean? Like, all right, I've written a whole bunch of books about this. Let's let a few other people share their stories. Yeah. I mean, we're both kind of memoirs. I've got to say everything I can say about this. How many memoirs can you write? Yeah. And it's great. Yeah, it's all different kinds of people from all different walks of life

who all have their version of how running has improved their lives. And also good being defined broadly to me, not just good in my own life, meaning the storyteller, but also how can you use running to leverage good for others, right? Which is sort of like versions of your running a Silk Road.

Yeah, and I'm, I think, a little more immersed in that world than you might be just because I do a lot of group events, like fun runs with groups. And it's a great experience. I mean, I'm very much an introvert, I think like you. So I prefer running on my own, you know, for 55 miles by myself in the, you know, in the trails of Marin, but, um, you know, spending an hour with, you know, 30 or 40 or even, you know, a hundred fired up runners that are just getting into it. It really, uh, it, it just, it, it grounds you, it gives you a better, broader perspective on running.

Like not everyone runs in the mountains in Marin or 300 kilometers in Europe. I mean, a lot of people, for them to finish a half marathon, it's undoable. It's Herculean. I just did Jesse Itzler's 29-0-29 event. And actually you were the person who first introduced me to Jesse. Do you remember that? I just did Jesse Itzler's 29-0-29 event. Yeah.

And actually you were the person who first introduced me to Jesse. Do you remember that way back in the day? I do, yeah. And he's become a friend, he's great. And that event was magical for many reasons, but profound mostly because of what you just said. Like most of the people that were doing this event

hadn't done very many hard kind of athletic things in their lives. These are like everyday people, business people or whatever. And unlike a 5K that's gonna be done, you know, in a half an hour or an hour or whatever, depending upon your speed. Yeah.

This thing, like on paper, it's like, well, you walk up a mountain, you take the gondola down, like how hard can it be? Yeah. But it was really hard. It was hard for me and my group of hardcore friends. Every ascent back down was close to two hours.

And it was 13 times. So you had to do it. I mean, that's 26 hours right there. And these are people who've never done anything like this. And it was amazing how many of them just committed 100%, went all through the night, didn't sleep, like just did everything in their power to dig as deep as possible to get it done, whether that meant doing all 13 or doing 10 or doing six or whatever. And I got more inspiration from those people than from anything that I've witnessed or experienced

recently. It was amazing. And what was great is there's no, there's no leaderboard. They don't, he doesn't like, you know, track time or place or anything like that. And at the banquet, it's just about highlighting a couple of people who, you know, really got outside themselves to, to, you know, exceed their perceived limits. Like one guy who had done four the year before and had lost a bunch of weight and then did 10 and a 65 year old woman who like got all 13 done right down to the wire. Like it was super cool to do that. So it inspired me to try to expand my horizons to like, I am an introvert. like i'm not like crazy about all the group stuff like you do it all the time and it's like i don't know man you know being around all those people but

i got so much out of it that um i want to explore being part of that um well it's and it's funny you bring that up because just yesterday i got an email from a guy uh from singapore that had come over to do that event and he he's like, that was incredible. It was your book. He sent me a photo of my book. He's like, your book inspired me to like explore this world. And I just finished the same thing you just finished. Wow.

Yeah. That's pretty cool. Yeah. But I mean, to that point, you know, Western states, more people come out. It's got a 30-hour cutoff. More people come out the last hour to watch the last finishers than are there for the winner, a lot more. So more people are inspired by seeing, can they make it in 30 hours? It's just a human drama of watching someone come onto a

track with 30 seconds left, you know, after running 99.99 miles, just saying, come on, you can get there, you can get there. It's crazy. Yeah. There was a, there was a situation like that at the, at the 29, 29 thing. There was a guy who had done 12 and he was at the summit and there was like, I don't know, an hour and 45 minutes left. And he, you know, he was like, he was hurting. And I think his fastest round trip was like two and a half hours, something like that. And Mark, Jesse's partner was like, well, this guy was like, I'm done. There's no way, there's not enough time for me

to do another one. And Mark's like, come on, dude, the clock's still ticking. You got time, get on that gondola, go down and get it done. And he was like, okay. And then everybody rallied. And the guy's dead now. But everybody rallied to like support this guy. So many people who had already finished

went down on the course to help bring him up. Yeah. And there was a cheering section, like bar none at the top. And literally he had like 30 seconds to make it across the finish line before the 36 hour cutoff. And about a hundred yards from the line,

he like stumbled. And I thought he was gonna pass out. And everyone's like, get up, get up. You know, it's like 10, nine. And he got up and he literally somehow got himself across the finish line. I don't know how he did it. And it was remarkable. He made it. It was so awesome to see that. And that's the kind of thing that you see time and time again. I'm sure you see it all the time at all of these events that you go to. Yeah. No, those, and those, those sort of moments are magical, aren't they? Yeah. There's something about it. And these are kind of the stories that are, that are in this book, right? Yes. And you know, there's another, there's another element that people don't really think about is there

are spectators that come out to watch races. Like I, I finished New York city marathon last year. You know, I've done it, I don't know, probably 700 dozen times. And I'm walking back, you know, it's just one of those New York things. I'm walking back to my hotel and I start talking to a woman who congratulated me. And I said, you know, did you have a runner in the race? And she said, no.

I said, what were you doing? She's like, I'm just was spectating. I'm like, you just came out to cheer? What did you think? She goes, well, I've done it for the last 20 years. Like you just come out. She's like, it's the best day of my life like there's something about watching these people and their persistence and how hard they have it and just it just it makes me filled with life

i've never thought about that like i would never think to go watch a running race uh for what you get as a spectator she wasn't a runner she just said it's something about the human drama that pulls you in yeah yeah i think that that speaks to um the broader inspiration not just like a lot of this is like well you see that and then it inspires you to try something like that but you don't necessarily have to be a runner or an endurance athlete you can take that inspiration and apply it to something else in your life that, that, that you care about that may have nothing to do with that. Like, you know, some other goal that you have that has nothing to do with anything fitness or athletics related. I get the feeling she wasn't even going to apply anything. She, I think she, it just made her, it just uplifted her. Like she just felt like she was like glowing. Like it was just such an uplifting thing to see

these people. There's something about shared suffering, right? You know, it brings people together. Yeah. So, well, let's talk about suffering. Tell me about your relationship to suffering, Dean. I'm sure you've never been asked that. It's complicated.

Yeah. You know, I embrace it. I'll be honest. I mean, I think it was Patton who said, forgive me God for I love it so. He was talking about war, but an ultra marathon's a war. It's just the battle is the elements, is the mountain you're facing, and you throw yourself into it.

And it, I don't know, there's something, it tears you down, right? But there's just something so raw and visceral about succeeding and just keeping one foot. I mean, you saw me at Badwater. You wanna stop, every step hurts. Every step you're saying, I gotta stop. This is horrible, I wanna stop, I wanna stop.

And just keeping going, there's something about that. What is it about that that makes us feel so alive? Is it because that's missing in our day-to-day equation? Like we don't have to worry about survival anymore? Is it baked into our DNA or what is the, what is the, you know, like once you've experienced that, you want more of that. You realize like that thing that we're trying to remove from our life is the one thing that's somewhat essential to actually feeling completely alive and at your best. Yeah, someone has said that, without war,

you don't know if you're a coward or a hero. And this is your war, right? Everyone wants to fight and see what they're made of. And this is the test. This? Everyone wants to fight and see what they're made of. And this is the test. This is where you get to see, nothing holds a mirror to you like running, right? Especially long distances. You see exactly who you are, yeah.

I think that it's not a mystery why, in addition to the ultra running community, like exploding, you just mentioned some statistics of how many people run a 5K. Like I can't imagine how many people do marathons. Like and now we have Spartan races and we have every derivation of any kind of crazy endurance obstacle course challenge imaginable available in every city on every weekend all across the developed world. Why is that happening now? And I think it's because we've drained our daily existence from strain and toil. We've created these air-conditioned castles that we live in. And we're constantly being bombarded with these messages that the path to happiness is lined with luxury and ease and comfort and a flat screen TV and the like. And that is not perpetuating happiness and fulfillment and purpose, but rather creating

a mass epidemic of depression and disconnection and disaffectation. We have all of these people who are incredibly unfulfilled in their professional and personal lives in a way that I think is unprecedented in human history. And it is an ill that is endemic to the most modern of societies. And these events are like the antidote to that in some way. They're a way for people to step outside of this construct that we've created and tap into something primal and real that makes us human beings.

God bless you. That was really well stated. That was a question. That was poetry there, people. I couldn't have said that better. That was poetry. I mean, I couldn't agree with you more, Rich. And you go to an executive's office

and what's behind them at their desk, their medal from finishing Ironman. I mean, it becomes more important than anything else in your life, right? It's not what you've achieved, what things you have. It's, hey, I finished Ironman. There's something about it that just goes beyond material. It goes beyond, it's human.

It's very human. It's a very human instinct. And unfortunately, like when you travel across this country, so many people are so far removed from that. I mean, they don't have a relationship with their body, first of all, and that's horrible. And they've kind of just got, I think, sucked into this whole world that you just described

of comfort, thinking that's gonna make them happy. And you're bombarded with messaging from marketers and ads saying just that, buy this luxury vehicle and you're gonna be happy. And it doesn't work. It just doesn't, that formula doesn't work. And I think more and more people are starting to recognize that. Yeah, when you finally get the car or the job,

you're happy for a little bit and then it just becomes that's your job or that's the car that you drive. And then you think, well, it must be the next car or if I just get that next promotion, you're just on this ladder, on this treadmill of constantly chasing the next thing without having the introspection to look within and understand that, you know, that hole is never going to get filled in that way. And that the path towards what it is that you're lacking and seek the most is going to come from getting outside your comfort zone, from embracing adventure and experience and, you know, tapping into that thing that does make us human, that does require us to suffer and to meet ourselves in a place of vulnerability that just isn't part of how we currently live.

Well, and I think, unfortunately, a lot of people listening to this are probably saying, well, Dean and Rich are so blessed. Like they've created these ideal lives that they just love. I'm not like that. Like I have to go to the office. I've got this, I got this obligation. You don't have to go to the office.

I mean, you can carve out your own niche. Everyone can do that. And I think a lot of people feel trapped, but that's because they are trapped. They've made themselves trapped. Who was it who said that we all live in a cage with the door wide open? We're all in cages and we all create our own heaven or hell. And it's up to us. Yeah, it's a good point. I mean, I think it's easy to look at your life or my life and just say, well, you know, they have it easier. But like you, I mean, you quite literally burst out of your cage and went through the night to escape it. Mine came a little bit later and was, you know, a little less dramatic and immediate, but it was the same thing. It was like, I don't want to be part of this system anymore. I've got to find a different way to live my life. And it took me a very long time to figure out how to do that. Well, and let me, you're plugging my book. Let me plug Rich's book. If you haven't read Finding Ultra, please read that book. It is a hell of a story. It's a hell of a story. I just wish I'd burst out of the Paragon Bar in the middle of the night and run all the way to

however far you ran. Rich, he wasn't always what he is today, believe me. The episode of you trying to walk up your stairs when you were, well, he wasn't quite as slender as he was as he is today, back in the day. Not quite, not quite. But I had to put myself, I think that, speaking from my own experience,

I had been put myself, I think that, you know, speaking from my own experience, I had been an athlete in college and I knew that relationship between suffering and meaning, like I had touched that in my past. And for some reason, I felt like I needed to reconnect with that in order to answer this question about what I wanted to do with my life. And it wasn't a direct, it's not a direct calculus. I just knew that the answers that eluded me that I was seeking would be found with me out alone, spending time in nature with no other sound other than my breath and my heart beating and sweating

and trying to get to that place of purity that only comes when you're completely stripped down. Yeah, and I mean, that's part of the reason I'm involved with Chicken Soup for the Soul and this Running for Good that place of purity that only comes when you're completely stripped down. Yeah. And I mean, you know, that's part of the reason I'm involved with Chicken Soup for the Soul and this Running for Good, because you get to read about 101 people that did just as you're describing. I mean, every single story is just what you described. And I think it's empowering for other people to read that.

It almost gives them permission. Like, you know, hey, my neighbor did this. I can do it. Or like, I can't, you know, I can't connect with dean or i can't connect with rich but i can connect with this veteran who has ptsd or this mom or this person who's who you know has an amputated limb yeah even i mean you know even just everyday hardships you know people that couldn't walk to the end of their driveway to get the newspaper they were so obese like she couldn't walk to the end of their driveway to get the newspaper. They were so obese. She couldn't walk to the end of her driveway and she said, this is something that's going to happen here. And now she's running half marathons. Wow. So yeah. What are some of your

other favorite excerpts from the book? Well, there's another crew member at Badwater for me named Michelle Barton. I think you know Michelle. And after she crewed for me, she got inspired to actually run it, Rich. So I think you got to go back and actually run it. And she tells her story of running Badwater. And you think I had it rough. She should read her story. Yeah.

Why? What happened? You don't want to spoil it? Yeah. I mean, I'll just say blisters under the toenails for one. Yeah. I mean, she had it really tough and she finished. Wow.

Yeah. And what else? There's so many stories in here. A friend of mine, Burr Purnell, took his family to Greece. He went on vacation and they saw some refugees. So if you've ever been to Greece, which I'm Greek, so on some of the islands, there's refugee camps from Syria, people trying to get out of Syria. And his daughter asked him, dad, why are those people behind the gates? And he explained to her that they're refugees.

And it so touched her. She said, I don't like this. I don't want people to be like this. So he contacted the aid workers and said, you know what? We want to get involved. What can I do? And they said, well, you're a runner. Why don't you take some of the young boys running? Like these boys, they're young kids. Like they have no, you know, there's no outlet for them. So he started a running group on Lesvos for these young Syrian refugee boys. Yeah.

That's amazing. Yeah. It was incredible. The story, I'm tearing up just reading about it. Yeah. That's super cool. And how selfless is that? I mean Yeah, it was incredible. The story, I'm tearing up just reading about it. Yeah, that's super cool. And how selfless is that? I mean, think about the daughter.

They're going to some resort in Greece. It's all great. And all of a sudden, they're in these refugee camps instead. Yeah, but that's an experience they'll never forget. Never. No, it's amazing. Yeah. And what a beautiful thing to do with your daughter. I mean, for her, how transformational is that

to see what your dad did, yeah. Yeah. Wow, that's amazing, man. You gotta read the book. I know, well, I just started. There's so many stories. Part of it is like, I don't need motivation to run. You know what I mean?

Like, I don't need to be inspired because it's like, that's what I prefer to do. Like you actually have to inspire me or motivate me to do something else other than that. You know what I mean? Yeah. But I love, you know, the heartfelt stories of just everyday people who find meaning and purpose

through the most simplest of endeavors, which is putting one foot in front of the other. It doesn't get any more more basic or elemental than that. What do you think you would do if something happened, God forbid, and you couldn't run anymore? Have you thought about that ever? I've always defined my finish line as a pine box. So I don't like answering hypothetical questions.

One thing I'm doing right now, which I don't think I told you about, is I'm getting a classics degree from Villanova. So I'm in a graduate... I love ancient Greek culture. So I'm getting my classics degree. And that's really fulfilling. That's cool.

Yeah. You could do that remotely from Marin or do you have to go to Villanova? No, I gotta go to Villanova at the end to defend my thesis, but it's all remote. What is your thesis on? I haven't gotten there yet. You don't know?

No, I don't know yet. But it's gonna have something to do with Greeks and running? Running, probably, yeah. Greeks and athletes, at least, yeah. Well, when we were running through the night in Badwater, you were telling me all about this amazing professor that you found who was the guy when it came to the running culture of ancient Greece.

Paul Cartlidge, Dr. Cartlidge from Cambridge University. Yep, he's profoundly influenced me. This guy is a walking encyclopedia, Winkipedia. I mean, he knows more about ancient history. He's amazing. He speaks, I think, six languages, you know, fluent Greek. He speaks Latin.

I mean, he's just amazing guy. And he's so humble. If he was here, he's so humble and unassuming. He's just the greatest guy. Yeah. So he really influenced me to, you know, pursue this degree. Wow.

So focusing on Greek history. So what have you learned about Greek history and that culture since you wrote the book as a result of this classics program? That things go full circle, that the Greeks were wiser than we are today. And a lot of the stuff we're talking about, these very fundamental ways of achieving happiness, if you read Plato or you read Socrates, that's what they talk about. So it's not a lot different than this conversation.

Because they were facing the same thing. The Greeks, there was a huge income disparity in ancient Greece. People were living frivolous lives of excess. And they were saying, no, that's the wrong direction to go. And this is 2,500 years ago. Have you studied the Stoics at all? I have. Because now this is such a zeitgeisty thing. Everybody's all about the Stoics because of Ryan Holiday and his amazing books, not the least of which is right here, Ego is the Enemy. And it's fascinating that this canon of ancient wisdom is now been made so popular.

And I think in part, it's because it's so practical and relevant to the problems that we're having today. Like we're having like these ruminations, whether it's Marcus Aurelius or Seneca or Epictetus, they're probably- Finally, you got a Greek in there. You got two Romans. They're like, when's a Greek coming in there?

I mean, they write about the problems that they're facing. And if you can kind of extract out whatever is relevant to that time and age, you realize like these are the same things that occupy our unconscious and conscious minds on a day-to-day basis. How to be more productive, how to prioritize what's most important, how to focus our lives around meaning and purpose and

fulfillment and the like. And I think because of the way, the things that we've already talked about here today, there is a crisis of people trying to find meaning in their lives because they're pursuing careers that are not as fulfilling as perhaps they would have been 20 or 30 or 40 or 50 or 200 years ago. And it's leading people back. 2,000 years ago. I mean, we're talking 2,500 years ago. Right, but bringing people back to these ancient texts where these people spent a lot of time thinking about this stuff and trying to construct pathways forward that are practical.

and trying to construct pathways forward that are practical. No, to me, it was so profound to read the messaging from ancient Greece and say, these are the same issues we're facing today. And what are the strategies to overcome? And they're not a lot different than what we're talking about right now. Right. We should just be naked below the Acropolis, eating grapes, drinking wine. Other than that, it's all good. And the occasional 55 mile training run, I suppose, right?

Yeah. So when you go back to Greece for this race, are you gonna do it in the traditional garb again? Hell no. I'm taking my athlete. That was a misfire, right? That was a one and done. Yeah, yeah.

So the first time, for those of you listening, I ran eating only the ancient Greek food. So I ran with cured meat, like a beef jerky, something called pastille, which is ground sesame seed and honey. Oh, it's almost like an energy paste. Nuts, just basic foods that Pheidippides, the ancient marathoner would have used.

And it was not a good experience. And you had like the skirt and the sandals too, didn't you? Or at least for part of it, right? I did a marathon. Oh, right. Those are two different things. Yeah. Well, I was going to try and test wearing it.

Like how would it go? And it didn't go so well. Not good, right? And the foods went well. The foods, I did like 10, 12 hour training runs. But what I learned is you can eat figs for 10 or 12 hours. That's fine. But when you eat figs for 24 or 30 hours,

you can't live on figs for obvious reasons. Why do you eat figs? Yeah, this is the fallacy of like, we should get back to the way we used to do things, taking it too far. It's like, just because they did that that long ago doesn't mean that that was the best way to do it. We've learned a few things since then.

And they weren't running 153 miles nonstop for 36 hours. They were eating figs throughout the day, which is fine, or even in the short run, but 36 hours of figs is not good on the stomach. Yeah, no, talk about having to pull over to the side of the road, right? Why do you think that you've been able to, from what I can tell,

like I don't think you've ever sustained an overuse injury. Is that true? Yeah, I mean, I shouldn't say that because I'm probably trip on the doorstep and break my leg when I walk out of here. But yeah, I never had an injury. Never Achilles, nothing, nothing, Rich. Wow.

I do a lot of cross training, which I think helps. So walk me through that routine and maybe how it's evolved over the years. So I have this routine of HIIT training. So I have an office just like yours. Well, you've seen my house. And I've got a pull-up bar and a sit-up mat. And throughout the course of the day, and I'm never sitting like we're doing now. I'm standing, answering emails, whatever, writing.

You have a standing desk. Standing desk. And then I do this HIIT cycle. It's about 12 to 13 minutes of push-ups, sit-ups, pull-ups, chair dips, and burpees. And it keeps my heart revved for the whole time. You're pretty much redlining the whole time. And I do maybe five or six of those

throughout the course of the day, all with body weight, no actual weights, yeah. So you're at your desk, you type if you work for 15, 20 minutes, and then you do like a little routine and then return back to the desk. And then you're just constantly kind of, so you're just kind of constantly

in a perpetual state of training throughout your work day. And what does writing a book look like for you then? Because for me, I have to sit and I have to remove, I can't do it in tiny chunks. I have to really sit for hours and hours and hours and marinate in thought. I can't get there. Do you just dictate on a headset or something like that? I cannot. I've tried meditation. I've got to be moving. I cannot meditate. To me, motion stirs emotion. So I run and write. I mean, I literally run. I dictate into my iPhone now.

But I write a lot of verses while I'm running. Wow. And that's when you can really word craft a sentence when you're running because you think about permutations or how are you going to say it, how are you going to say what you're going to say, how best to say it, how creatively to say it. And when you're running, you just have your clearest thoughts. I do at least. So you just pull it out and do like a voice memo.

Yep. Right. Yeah. And I can memorize sometimes two or three paragraphs. And I'm thinking, wow, I'm big shit, right? But I mean, the old leaders that read the Odyssey, they were memorizing 9,000 sentences, basically 9,000 sentences, 9,000 lines of text they memorized and they'd orally give their orations

over the course of five or six hours. Every single word, perfect. Those guys need to get a life. There was no Twitter feed there. There's no distractions. There's nothing else for them to do, right? It's an Instagrammable moment. Hold on, I'm at 8,999. I'm going to nail

this last sentence. Get this one. Wow, that's amazing. Yeah. So then you take that. So I'm just trying to like kind of grok the process. So you would do that and then you come back and then transcribe it or how does that work? Yeah, go transcribe it. Exactly. Yeah. Have a glass of water, sit down, transcribe. And also, you also, when you come to an end of a chapter, you're thinking, what direction do I take this book, right? I mean, what's the story going to be? So thinking about how you're going to craft the next paragraph or even the next chapter, even the next half a book,

like which direction is it going to go? Are you going to talk about this? No, let's talk about this. You know what it's like writing. Right. It's a lot of thinking. That is the definition of of effective multitasking you're training and writing your book at the same time you may be i think it's the best i think it's the best time to do it i really i mean anyone listening this i know they're saying that yeah

i have my best thoughts when i'm running as well yeah it's inevitable yeah i think they need to figure out a more seamless way of like trying to, you know, if you're running, then pulling out your phone and then like, how are you like, you know, like if there was a really easy way to just go, you know, push one button or whatever and let it flow. I don't know.

Yeah, that'd be easy. I've got a handle on my phone. So I just run with my phone and just voice dictation, voice memo. That's interesting. I'm going to try that. But you don't listen to any music or audio books? I listen to audio books once in a while.

Oh, you do? Yeah. No podcasts? Of course I listen to Rude Rage. Of course. No, you don't. Every single one. Come on.

He's lying. That is amazing about never having had an overuse injury, like no back problems or nothing like that. That's remarkable. I think you're unique in that. And that must be, it has to be because of all the cross training that you're doing because the running without that, there's no way. I think it's a 360-degree view that allows me to be the best animal I can be.

So I look at my entire life through the lens of being the best runner I can be. So that means we know training, cross training. That means good quality sleep. It means diet. It's everything. But I also think it means interpersonal relationships. Like if you have good, stable interpersonal relationships, your performance is a lot better. If your interpersonal relationships are disruptive and you're battling with people, it impacts performance.

We know this. And so that's the other thing I try to optimize is my interpersonal relationships. Part of the things you talk about is you associate with people that bring you up, right? You don't associate with people that bring you down. And that's been a lesson I've learned. And also you associate maybe with fewer people. I mean, I'm an introvert, so I have fewer closer friends and I'm very comfortable on my own.

Like a lot of people I think are not comfortable by themselves. Like I don't mind running with myself for three hours. I'm not bored. I'm cool being by myself. Yeah, I prefer it. But you must have people rolling up on you on the trails all the time. Oh, I have some funny things happen. Or even on the roads.

Tell me. Even in the airport, walking here, when I was going through TSA in Oakland, the TSA guy's like, oh, my God, you're that ultra-marathoner guy, aren't you? You're the runner guy. My God, you're amazing. He was very, aren't you? You're the runner guy. Like, my God, you're amazing. You know, he was very discreet. And I said, thanks, bro. Yeah, those sort of things happen all the time.

Yeah, well, that's nice. You know, you're being acknowledged for who you are. That's cool. But it's different if it's like, if you're trying to get into that, if you're like literally writing while you're running and you're in the middle and then someone wants to run with you or show you up or something like that, oh, there's the ultra marathon guy. I'm going to race him.

Yeah, I know. I passed a guy a couple of days ago and he saw me and he was standing on the trail side just catching his breath. And it was really a hot day and he saw me run by. So he obviously caught up to me and we chatted. It was a fine conversation and he lasted a couple miles. But people are respectful of you. It's good people, Rich.

I'm not like a movie star or rock star where I have all these fawning fans. The people that come up to me and say, hey man, really nice to meet you. I would sit down and have a beer with this guy because they're really solid people. So I feel pretty lucky in that regard yeah yeah um and how often are you going out and doing like the you know just you show up at these 5ks 10ks marathons like you seem to do that a lot

i do it's it's you know it's sponsorship sort of stuff so i do it quite a bit yeah how many sponsors are you working with now it's fluid yeah you know that's the other thing with my life and i'm sure like yours you're just i mean i'm a deal chaser you're constantly chasing your next deal like you're never sure how much how long this sponsorship is going to last you're never sure who the next one's going to be so you're always prospecting and you're always chasing sponsors so that's you know that's a pretty tough element and you do that all you do that yourself yeah yeah i tried working with a a couple agencies, and they don't get endurance sports. Like you get lost with the basketball players and the football players,

and you're just, let's face it, you're small potatoes compared to those guys. In certain respects, yes, and in other ways, no. Like I feel like that's shifting, but not shifting quite a bit. My sense is that most, you know, most of the large companies or the companies that would be candidates for sponsoring a person like yourself have a certain way in which they perceive athletes. It's like, these are the, you know, these are the people that we work with. This is their race schedule. These are the podiums they're going to be on. This is the kit that they're going to wear. And here's where our logo is going to be. And it's a very kind of binary way of thinking. Whereas I look at someone like

yourself and your appeal, like your, your, your value to a sponsor has nothing to do with like a podium or, you know, whatever gear you're going to wear. It's, it's. It's a lifestyle thing. And you have the ability to reach so many people and so many different kinds of people. And you bring in all of these people who have no idea who's first, second or third at this race or that race. This is not part of their universe.

And yet what you speak to is meaningful for these people. And so it's confusing to me why more sponsors don't understand the value of that, because I actually think that's more valuable than some guy who can run, you know, a 212 marathon, but is somebody that no one's ever heard of. Rich, that pitch you just gave me, how many executives I've laid that same pitch and they look at me like with the glazed over, like, well, well you know your name's not on the side of staple stadium i mean you know they don't they don't get i mean i was with wasserman uh-huh and wasserman group they

just they literally shut down their their uh endurance group so they laid off everyone that was just a couple weeks ago oh i didn't even know that yeah and of this and casey's a great guy and he's super into endurance sports like i would think he gets it but yeah he's missing there yeah something was missing and of the six or seven deals we did literally all of them came through me yeah i get it you know it's hard man you got to be a hustler it's like back to like hey this is the life that you wanted and this is the life that you're creating for yourself. You're forging a situation that is without precedence. Like who would have thought like a guy who is super into running ultra marathons and is really good at it could create

not just a vocation out of it, but one with longevity, you know, like that. That's not an easy thing. And yet you've been able to do it year after year after year. Well, I mean, I look to models, people like you, like say Laird. I follow in your footsteps.

Look at like Laird Hamilton. Like, you know, he's a big wave surfer. I don't know, how much does he surf these days? Probably not as much as- I mean, he surfs every day because he lives out here. You know, you can see him around and stuff like that, but he's not competing.

He's not a competitive surfer. Yeah, or Tony Hawk. I mean, how did he carve out, make a go of it skateboarding? Who would ever think you could do this, but they figured it out. You can make a cool video game on a skateboard. You can't do that with ultra running. That'd be a really boring video game. Really boring. Yeah. You're just going to run on this trail for the next 55 hours. Let's see how many Red Bulls you're going to drink in that lazy boy chair before you fall asleep. Oh, he's going to pee again. Let's get that one. Extra bonus points for not having diarrhea. Oh.

I don't know. Come on. Get a little graphic here. No, it's true though. Yeah. Laird is probably the best example or Tony Hawk, like people who excel at what they do, but have still been able to create a life out of it that extends beyond the paradigm of competition. So what's next for you, man? You got these races coming up, but what's the longer view? You just keep writing books, keep doing your thing?

I'm writing another book. As an author, you're only as good as your next book, right? That's a saying thing. I'm writing another book. As an author, you're only as good as your next book, right? That's a saying. So I'm writing another book. I sold motion picture rights to Ultra Marathon Man. Oh, you did? Yeah. So it's-

Who'd you sell them to? It's a producer on the East Coast, Sergio Riaz. And he's a really good guy. That's exciting. He's a young kid. He read my book. He lost, I think he lost 80 pounds. He was living in Idaho and he's like changed his life.

Yeah, so that's exciting. What else? I was given the President's Council on Sports, Fitness, and Nutrition. I just won the Lifetime Achievement Award. Wow. So I get to go back to Washington, D.C. and get that. That's cool. Will they give you a fancy medal?

I hope so. Who gives it to you? Let's not go there. Okay. Because our current guy at the top is not necessarily the picture of fitness and health. He doesn't really embrace those values. Is he the one who's going to hand it to you? I don't know.

I don't know. It's going to be interesting to see. It should be interesting. Well, congratulations. That's super cool. You know why it's cool to me is one of my mentors, Jack LaLanne, was the first recipient. Oh, really? Yeah.

He was the very first guy. And Arnold's won it as well. Did they give that out every year? Every year, yeah. Wow. Yeah. That's cool. And how long before you finish your classics degree?

You got to write a thesis. Yeah. I've got about two and a half more years. I'm on the long I'm only taking a course or two a semester and how old are your kids now? are they out of the house now? yeah I'm an empty nester

you know what I do all day? I get up I walk around naked I have some coffee naked I bend over and look through the produce drawer in the refrigerator my wife walks around the corner and I'm bending over and she the produce, you know, the produce drawer in the refrigerator. And, you know, my wife walks around the corner and I'm bending over and she's like, are you going to put clothes on today? I'm like, you saw where I live. Like, why? Why?

Well, you're way up at the top. Nobody can see in where you're living. I don't even freaking care anymore if they do. Like, it feels so good to be naked. And, you know, Socrates used to take air baths. So he'd go stand out naked in the wind. So did Benjamin Franklin. There's something to be said about an air bath. You got to try it, Rich. It's really liberating, yeah, an air bath. That reminds me of that scene in Jerry Maguire when Cuba Gooding Jr. comes out of the shower

and Tom Cruise is like, do you want a towel? And he's like, no, air dry. Air dry, I remember that. So he was tapping into his inner Socrates, I suppose. Well, that's cool. Is your wife still practicing dentistry? She is. She retired from that?

No, she's actually in real estate now. Oh, wow. So she's doing real estate. She also sells, transacts dental practices. So to sell a dental practice in California, you have to be a licensed dentist and a licensed realtor. So how many of those exist? So she has a little niche on that one.

And what do your kids think about what you do? I know you've done some events with your son, right? You ran a marathon with your son? Yeah, they've done some running with me. They don't think anything unusual with me.

My kids, God bless them, could not be less interested. My kids, God bless them, could not be less interested. My daughters, they have no interest whatsoever in participating in any of these things. I mean, they're like, that's cool, Dad, but it's not like when I see other parents or dads out there and they get their kids to do these things, I'm like, I would have to move heaven and earth

to get one of my daughters to try to do something like that. Like they're just, and that's fine. Like I don't need them to do that. Like I'm there to support what it is that lights them up. You know, like that's what excites me. So it's not like I need that to happen. I just find it curious that the universe rigs it for me to have kids that like are interested in things

completely different than what gets me out of bed. Yeah. Well, my daughter runs and we've run, you probably not gonna like this story, but we ran the Wine Country Half Marathon. Now I'm gonna get angry. Napa to Sonoma Wine Country Half. And get this, at about mile eight of the half marathon,

they start serving wine at the age stations oh no so i'm like alexander should we she's like let's wait till mile 10 so we get to mile 10 and i'm like okay let's indulge those are the best three miles of my life i can imagine we were just oh there's another age station i don't mind you want to break two hours i don't who cares yeah um and you had do you have a wine company marathon i started a label yep yeah on wines did that inspire you if we're gonna have wine it should be my wine on the race course that's what i thought yeah well i mean so how did that come together it was a collaboration with the greek guy i've done a couple collaborations with people

on greek products so i have a product um the Naked Greek, which is a body lotion. These are kind of like licensing deals. I'm starting a CBD line called On The Run, specifically for runners. So that's another one I'm looking forward to. That's cool. You gotta pay the bills somehow, right? Yeah, man, you're getting it.

So CBD oil, wine, you had like, you did a Greek yogurt thing for a while too, right? Yep, Greek yogurt. As I I said you're constantly chasing the deals it's just the next thing all that stuff man multifaceted Dean Karnazes mountain tea oh that's right yeah thank you for that

so that's your product as well no that's a friend of mine two friends of mine Vafni and Chloe have a company in Greece where they go and pick herbs that way to which you try yeah so talk to me about what mountain tea is uh it grows it's they call it shepherd tea in some places it's just it's a it's like a an herb a flowering herb that grows at high elevations in Greece like Mount Olympus and it's energetic it's it's almost like it's energetic. It's almost like mate, but it's a little different.

And so, I mean, basically, it's like the full plant. It's not like tea leaves. Yeah, no, just get a big pot. Get a big pot. You just steam it and boil it? Boil water in there. Throw it in there for like 15 minutes and then strain it out.

I put a little stevia in there for sweetness. It's fantastic. Is it caffeinated? No, no caffeine. Just some other kind of natural energy boost. There's something like 1,200 bioactive compounds within that tea. There's all kinds of stuff in there. There's theobromine, theophylline.

There's a lot of other stuff besides caffeine that makes you feel good. I look forward to checking it out. Thank you for that. Well, let's round this out with a little bit of takeaway wisdom for people that are listening. I want to kind of cater it to, you know, that person who is, you know, on the couch, but maybe on the edge of the couch. Like they're the person who maybe turns out to witness the New York Marathon and gets energy from that, but hasn't quite made that extra step to get out there themselves. So how do you communicate or speak to that individual

to try to inspire them to put on a pair of running shoes and get after it? You know, I always tell people to look inward before you start this journey, because let's face it, it's really intimidating to a lot of people. I hear that all the time. Like this is so intimidating for me to try to go running.

Especially if I say, let's go running. Cause they're thinking, geez, I'm gonna have to keep up with Dean. So if you're an introvert, don't sign up for a group running program. You're gonna hate it. You're gonna feel weird. Yeah, cause that's what everyone says.

Sign up for a group, you'll love it. If you're an extrovert and you want group support and you like the accountability, like every, you know, every at 6 p.m. on Tuesdays and Thursdays, we're doing our group run, that's a great way to go about it. I also say invest in a good pair of running shoes. Go to a specialty running store,

not like a big box, not like a big five or Dick's Sporting Goods. Go to like a Fleet Feet or one of the grassroots specialty running and get a good pair of shoes. Get fitted. There's so many great shoes out there now. So get fitted get a good pair of shoes. Get fitted. There's so many great shoes out there now. So get fitted for a good pair of shoes.

That'll make you more comfortable. And then, again, look inside. And if you like the accountability of being places and you like group dynamics, sign up. I also say pick an event six months down the road and sign up, even if it's a 5K. Register and then you're accountable and tell people that you're going to do it so that on those days when you're feeling, I'm not going to train today, you know you've told these people you're going to do this thing. And do it for charity.

It makes you even more accountable. If you're raising money for others, now you've got to do it. And that helps fuel you along. I think a statistic that really surprised me from Running USA is that something like 80% of the runners start running to lose weight. And like, something like 80% of the current runners run because they enjoy it. So it says to me that a lot of people start running because they want to lose weight. And all of a sudden, they find that they like running. And so now they lose their weight or they don't,

but they keep running. They enjoy the act of running. So just getting someone running, I think is the hardest part. Yeah, I think that that person who gets into it to lose weight can't imagine that one day they would actually enjoy it. It's just like this thing, like I have to do it in order to take off these extra pounds, but I'm not doing it because it's fun.

It's terrible. I absolutely hate it. And it is hard to get in shape running, but once you're in shape running, that's where the fun begins. And it's a long process too. Like people, it just, that's the problem. If you could go on one run and the next day it'd be easier,

we'd have a lot more runners but you know it takes a month before you can actually run a continuous mile some people i mean some people cannot run literally i say try to run for one minute just set your clock for one minute and run continuous and they can't make it when they first start out and then they make it i say try three minutes and then make it three minutes so it's you know that it's very quantifiable like you know you're making progress if you just set a time goal and and do it that way because then you see i'm moving forward i ran 10 minutes non-stop today even if it starts with just walking around the block you know i think people think that they don't want to get into it because they don't want to look bad or they feel like they need to be good at it from the outset. And we are all natural born runners,

but we've been living sedentary lives. And I think it's okay to give people permission even before they go to the fleet feet and get measured for the nice pair of shoes to just put on the Chuck Taylors or the flip flops and like walk around the block and whatever it is that you have, you really don't need,

not only do you not need permission, you don't really need anything other than your body to do it. And the willpower. The willpower. The willpower, yeah. Have you seen this really great new independent movie, Britney Runs a Marathon? I saw the-

Did you? I haven't seen it yet though. Have you seen it? I was dying to see it. It's great. I mean, it's not so much about running, right? I mean. It is and it isn't.

It's better than the trailer. It's a really great movie. And it is about this woman, Brittany, and how her life has kind of gone sideways. And she gets into running initially yes to lose weight but then you know becomes like she's like i'm a runner now and it and it starts to inform how she makes decisions about her life so it's really about her regaining control over her life and setting her on a path to respect herself and the marathon is just a part of that but it in it it's it's like this is

how she evolves i can't wait and it's fantastic i can't wait to see it. And it's fantastic. I can't wait to see it. My buddy Utkarsh plays her love interest in the movie and he's been on the podcast. So that makes it extra special. So for people listening out there. I like the way you say that, her love interest. Yeah, well, he's like,

he plays like the on again, off again, kind of love interest in the movie. And it's really well done. Is he a runner in the movie? No, he's not, he's not, he's not. It's super fun movie. It's really well done. Is he a runner in the movie? No, he's not. He's not. All right. He's not.

It's a super fun movie. So yeah, you would love it, actually. I think it's great. And I think it would inspire anybody who thinks like, well, I'm not a runner and I can't do that. Like the whole kind of narrative

is about this person who thinks that way as well and proves to herself otherwise. I applaud the producer, director, everyone in that because I bet they're going to inspire a lot of people to start running. Yeah. It's based on a true story. The writer director had a roommate when he was living in New York and it was based on

this woman's story and how inspired he was about how she went on this journey for herself. And it took him many years, but now he's made this movie and it's really cool. Yeah. So, all right. Well, bravo. Final parting closing words. Inspire me, Dean Karnazes. Run when you can, walk if you have to,

crawl if you must, just never give up. That's your mantra, right? That's a go-to, yeah. I got some others, but that one's always a good one. Well, I wanna publicly acknowledge you for the amazing example that you set for millions of people. I think the work that you do is truly meaningful. It inspired me.

I don't know that I would be sitting here without the path that you blazed ahead of me and the example that you've set for me and the mentorship that you've shown me. So I really appreciate your friendship and your counsel. And it means a lot to me that you would come here today and share your message with everybody. So thank you and please keep doing what you're doing.

I'm much more comfortable running with you than sitting here. Yeah, yeah. One of these days we're gonna get back out and run. How about that? Too much podcasting. I'll crew for you at Badwater. How's that?

Oh, no. No. I have too much respect for that race. That would need a major life rearrangement. Maybe when I'm an empty nester. Okay, you're on the record. Don't cut this out, Blake. No, it's not getting cut out.

All right, thanks. Come back anytime. Come back and share with me when you finish your classics degree and when you got the next book. Thanks for having me, Rich. Come back anytime. Come back and share with me when you finish your classics degree and when you got the next book. Thanks for having me, Rich. I appreciate it. Peace, Dean.

That's running. Beautiful man, that Dean. Hope you guys enjoyed that. For more on him and his world, check out the show notes on the episode page at richroll.com and let him know how this one landed for you by sharing your thoughts with him directly

on Twitter at Dean Karnazes and on Instagram at ultramarathon. If you'd like to support the work we do here on the podcast, subscribe, rate, and comment on the show on Apple Podcasts. That really helps new people discover what we're doing here. Tell your friends about your favorite episodes, share the show on social media, subscribe to my YouTube channel, and hit that button on Spotify and Google Podcasts as well, wherever you listen to this. And you can support us on Patreon at richroll.com forward slash donate. I want to thank everybody who helped put on the show today. Jason Camiolo for audio engineering, production, interstitial music, and show notes. Blake Curtis and Margo Luman for videoing the program. Jessica Miranda for graphics. Allie Rogers for portraits.

DK for advertiser relationships. And as always, theme music by Annalama. Appreciate the love, you guys. I will see you back here next week. Until then, run when you can. Walk if you have to. Crawl if you must. Just never give up.

Those are Dean's words, just never give up. Those are Dean's words, not mine. Peace, plants, namaste. Thank you.