The Rich Roll Podcast - Doug Bopst On Fitness, Faith & The Jail Cell That Saved His Life

Episode Date: May 23, 2019

“Always focus on how far you've come, not how far you have to go.”  Doug Bopst Admittedly, It's a thrill to converse with renown experts, world-class athletes and celebrities. But the most rewarding aspect of my job is occasionally turning my spotlight on the everyman — relatable people who have conquered adversity to reinvent themselves wholesale, all in relative civilian anonymity. These people are a gift. Amplifying their stories isn't just an honor. And it isn't just my joy. I see it as a responsibility. Through these individuals we are better able to see ourselves. Their weaknesses, struggles and strengths mirror our own. Their relatability uniquely qualifies them to reflect back upon us our shared, collective humanity. In their victories we can connect more viscerally with our own inner power and potential. Today it's my privilege to share yet another such story. This is the tale of Doug Bopst – an essentially normal kid who, like so many, suffered in silence from depression. To self-medicate he began experimenting with drugs in his teens. Smoking pot quickly evolved into a heavy opioid addiction. A day in the life involved snorting several hundred milligrams of OxyContin, complemented by a pack of cigarettes and the occasional cheesesteak. No exercise. No interest in maintaining relationships with anyone who didn't do drugs. No self-confidence. And no care for tomorrow. At 21, it all came to a head. High on opiates and on his way to make a drug deal, a cop pulled Doug over for a broken taillight. The officer found $2,000 in cash plus half a pound of marijuana under the spare tire in the trunk. Promptly arrested on a felony drug charge, Doug ultimately served 2 months in jail. It was hardly the harshest sentence. But it was more than sufficient for Doug to hit bottom. Reflect on his errant path. And commit to an entirely new life. A life redeemed by sobriety, faith, fitness and family. I was initially introduced to Doug through my friend Amy Dresner (another sober warrior you may remember from episode 341) and knew immediately I wanted him on the show. In fairness to Doug, his story isn't entirely that of the anonymous everyman. Now an award-winning personal trainer, author, and public speaker, his saga has been covered by a variety of media outlets, including The Today Show. But the press intrigue is driven by Doug's innate relatability. And I’m fairly confident this conversation is the most complete chronicle of his life and redemption to date. This is a conversation about what it was like, what happened and what it's like now. We cover the low lows. Hitting rock bottom. And exactly how he was able to conquer his demons and put the past in the rear view. It's about the power of sobriety. Leaning on mentors. And how a love of fitness, spirituality, and putting service service first returned him to sanity. All told, it's a story of redemption full stop — and I’m honored to help tell it. The visually inclined can watch our entire conversation on YouTube at: bit.ly/dougbopst443 (please subscribe!)  I sincerely hope you enjoy the exchange. Peace + Plants, Rich

I mean, a lot of people think that people, like, want to be addicted to drugs, and it's like, I don't think anybody wants to. I mean, who wants to live a life like that? I mean, and, you know, everybody wants to get well, and they have the intentions of doing so, but, like, they just don't think they can, or they don't know how to, or they've just had so much trauma in their life that they have no confidence in themselves at all, that they don't even, like, believe that they can go two hours without it. And it's really sad. It does get better. I mean, you are able to hold a job, your relationships do improve. The way you feel about yourself is better because

you don't have that weight weighing you down anymore. And you are able to do some work on yourself. Getting into recovery is a huge step in working on yourself, which a lot of people don't really do anymore, whether they're in recovery or not. And I think, you know, just showing that you actually love yourself enough to take a chance, put the drugs down, put the alcohol down and try to work something that will help you lead you in the right direction.

That's Doug Bobst. And this is The Rich Roll Podcast Hey everybody, how you guys doing? What's happening? My name is Rich Roll, I'm your host This is my podcast, welcome I'm joined in studio with my man DK What's up dude? It's good to see you

How are you feeling? I feel really good Good man We have a really cool episode today. And I want to preface it by saying, or admitting, I suppose, that it is really fun to host these conversations with all kinds of world-renowned experts and celebrities. But what's truly a gift, what's really an honor is periodically turning this spotlight that I have on the everyman, the often overlooked stories and tales of relatively normal semi-anonymous people who have faced and confronted and ultimately overcome, conquered obstacles to reinvent themselves wholesale. So if you're a regular

listener to the podcast, then you already know my affinity, my penchant for these kinds of stories. They really are my favorite thing, my joy. And they tend to sit amongst my favorites and generally, I think, most impactful episodes because they're so relatable, because in these individuals, we can see ourselves because their struggles, their experiences, their weaknesses, and strengths mirror our own. They are uniquely qualified to reflect back upon us our shared collective humanity in all its messiness and beautiful flaws. And perhaps most importantly, in their victories, we're able to viscerally connect with our own inner power and potential.

So today, people, it is my privilege to once again share just such a story. It's the story of an essentially normal kid, a kid who, like a lot of people, has struggled with depression. And at a young age, he starts using drugs to self-medicate. And what started out as pot ends up morphing into a pretty heavy opioid addiction that's met with this apathy for maintaining relationships with anybody who

doesn't do drugs. And at the peak of his using, he was smoking a pack of cigarettes a day. He was snorting several hundred milligrams of Oxy interspersed with the occasional pizza or cheesesteak, but no exercise, no self-confidence and really no care for the future. What do you think about that, DK? I mean, that sounded really intense. It is, right? And so at 21, it all comes to a head.

This guy, Doug, he's high on opiates, and he's on his way to make a drug deal when a cop pulls him over for a broken taillight. I'm like getting sweaty palms just thinking about this. And the officer ends up finding $2,000 in cash in the car plus half a pound of marijuana under the spare tire in the trunk. So, of course, Doug's arrested. He gets charged on a felony drug charge and he ultimately goes to jail for two months. And that's hardly the harshest sentence, but it was harsh enough for Doug to hit his bottom and reflect on this life that he was leading. And he ends up getting sober and commits to this new life path. It's an incredible story.

I'm gonna tell you a little bit more about it in a minute, but first. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and

the right level of care, especially because unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem. A problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs. They've partnered with the best global behavioral health providers to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews

from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not

hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment, an experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because, unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem. A problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs. They've partnered with the best global behavioral health providers to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more.

depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do.

And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. Okay, Doug. So I was introduced to Doug and his story through my friend, Amy Dresner. You know Amy, right? She's another sober warrior you might remember from episode 341. Check that out if you missed it. It really is a barn burner of a conversation. And in any event, I checked out Doug because I trust Amy, and I knew right away that I wanted to get him on the show. And I should say upfront that it's not entirely fair to characterize this guy and his story as that of the anonymous everyman. I mean,

he is that in certain respects, but I'm just not the first person to tell his story. His saga has been covered by a variety of media outlets, including the Today Show. Plus, he's gone on to do some pretty extraordinary things, transforming his life from felon into becoming this award-winning personal trainer and the author of a couple books as well and a bunch of public speaking stuff that he does. But I'm fairly confident this conversation is the most complete chronicle of his redemption.

We talk about what it was like, what happened and what it's like now. We go over the low lows, hitting rock bottom and how over time he was able to put his past behind him through sobriety, through falling in love with health and fitness, by leaning on mentors, cultivating spirituality, and service, freely giving back what was given to him. Because self-esteem comes with performing esteemable acts. This is a story of redemption, full stop.

And I'm honored to help tell it. Here's Doug. So Doug, happy to have you here today. Super nice to meet you. Really look forward to getting into this conversation. You've got an incredible story, but setting aside jail, recovery, drug addiction, all of my favorite subjects, perhaps your greatest achievement is that you got Amy Drezner interested in fitness. I don't know how you did that. That's like a miracle. So you got some kind of gift.

know how you did that, that's like a miracle. So you got some kind of gift. Well, I mean, when I first, I first reached out to Amy to interview her for my new book and I was talking to her about working out and I just saw that she was like, man, you're so skinny. I was like, have you ever like X, you ever worked out before? And she was like, yeah, back in the day here and there. And you know, I finally, I was like, oh, here, do these exercises. I gave her like some stuff to do on her own, some foods to eat. And she like, didn't do it. And I was like, you know what, I'm just going to train you. So, you know, we kind of helped each other out. You know, she would help me because I didn't know a lot of people in, since I didn't get sober in the 12 steps, I didn't know a lot of people who were in recovery, like that would be open to interviewing

for my book. So I just say, if you can help me, like, you know, reach out to some people because I just, I just don't know. Right. And I'll help you out with your workouts. And that's kind of how it started. And, you know, she's just, she's just like everybody. She wanted to see results like instantaneously. Of course. And I told her, I said, listen, you got to be patient. It's going to take time. I said, think about how long you've been beating up your body, you know, physically not really doing anything. And, you know, she actually started seeing some results like mentally first, she really started feeling better about herself. She really started, you know, noticing the importance of being dedicated to something. And then at first, from it being a daunting task of her working out,

she was texting me, can we work out today? Can we work? I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa. And then she was like, look, I'm getting some curves. And I'm like, and it's fun too, because we have fun. I mean, we do it on Skype and she's the most uncoordinated person you'll ever meet. She's like falling out of screen and she'll be the first to tell you that. And she like, you know, dropped a dumbbell on her forehead the other day,

like trying to do a skull crusher. And I was like, I've never seen anybody do that before. So it's, I gotta tell you, it's been fun. Well, she's refreshingly self-deprecating and I love her. I think she's just amazing. But when I had her on the podcast, which was a little over a year ago at this point, I would not have pegged her as somebody who was going to be getting obsessed with getting fit all of a sudden. So it's super cool that that's the path that she's on right now. And you're the catalyst for that. that's the path that she's on right. And you're the, you're the catalyst for that. Yeah. It's been a, it's been a blessing. I mean, as a, as a trainer, people always ask me like,

what the, what makes me feel good as a trainer and the physical benefits, helping somebody lose weight or run faster and get stronger is definitely good. But just watching somebody see that the, the, the, the mental aspect and the emotional component of it, and especially people in recovery, because I really think that fitness and nutrition are two of the most underutilized tools in recovery. And so Amy, to be able to see that and now write a piece about it, it's just been something that I'm just really humbled that I was a moving part in that story. Yeah, it's cool. She just wrote this article that came out on The Fix that you're a big part of, and I'm sort of quoted in, and Mishka, that you're a big part of, and I'm sort of quoted in, and Mishka, my friend, buddy. Have you met Mishka?

Not in person, just through email. But I think you're right. I'm somebody who, I know that you got sober outside of 12-step. 12-step, just like with Amy, I'm a 12-step person. AA is how I got sober, and it's still the number one thing in my life, super important. But there's plenty of truth in this idea that there's space for trying to build in healthy lifestyle habits. And, you know, I don't know if it's an additional step, but, you know, there's a lot of smoking cigarettes and drinking too much coffee and, you know, a lot of cupcakes and donuts going on there. And I think it would behoove the community to embrace a healthier way of eating and living and moving as part of that program of becoming

more integrated and whole. Yeah. I mean, as somebody who did get sober outside the 12 steps, I have the most respect for them. But I think outside of that, you're right. I think there is some room for fitness and for nutrition. And I think as people, once they stop using the drugs and the alcohol to deal with insecurities and stress and whatever, they got to replace it with something else. And not so much in an addictive way, but just in a mindfulness way and being able to exercise and just building that dedication and the ability to achieve goals, I think, correlates in the recovery as well. Do people say to you that you've transferred your addiction onto fitness?

I mean, no, because I mean, I mean, I guess now I'm at a point where, I mean, I only probably work out maybe 45 minutes to an hour a day, five days a week. And I make sure to take the time to rest and make sure to take the time to enjoy myself. I mean, you know, I guess I can definitely see where it can, right? If I was working out three, four, five hours a day with no end goal, like for no reason, if I wasn't training for anything crazy to work out for five hours walking on a treadmill a day, then yeah. But I mean, nobody's really ever said that to me because there's other parts of my recovery, like with some of the people I hang out with and my spirituality and helping other people,

that fitness isn't just it. I don't think you can just do push-ups and sit-ups and never use again. I just think fitness was the catalyst to getting me into recovery and then helped me along the way to meet these other things, other people in my life that have kind of helped me get to where I am now. Yeah, that's an important point. I mean, I said this, I shared Amy's article with the caveat or not the caveat, but just the sort of explainer that for me, you know, fitness is a huge component of my recovery program, but it's not a replacement for my higher power. It is not, it is not my recovery program, you know, in its complete sense. It's just an aspect of it. And I've gotten into trouble in the past and I've seen other people get into trouble in the past when they put fitness above everything and think that that is the solution to what ails

them at the expense of everything else. And that is not, I mean, just speaking from my own personal experience, like that's not a tenable path. No. And I kind of, to be honest, you know, I at first thought, you know, when I got out of jail that I could just run and do pushups. To enlighten that. Right. And then I hit a point. And then I hit a point and I was like, hmm, I look really good. I feel really good. I'm doing, I have a great job, but I'm still not fulfilled. And there was that point, there was that part of me that was that spiritual component that came in that I ended up developing a relationship with God because I ended up developing a relationship with

God because I didn't have any relationship with anything. And then also like the importance of having mentors in my life, people that have been through life, either in the business world or in the personal development world, that's kind of like almost like my sponsor. So if I'm having like a bad day or if I got a business thing or that, or I mean that I need to bounce an idea off of, I have them to call. It's not like I'm just like putting my head down and trying to do it myself. I mean, it's, I mean, for a while, the first few years, yeah, the ego got in the way, but then I got humbled really quick and was like, boy, you better like learn to include some other aspects

into this or it's going to be a really long road for you. Yeah. So who are those mentors for you? I mean, I got to say my grandparents, first and foremost. Because when I got out of jail, they took me in and let me stay with them. So they are some people I communicate with. Where were your folks in the whole equation? So my parents and I kind of had a torn relationship as a kid. I was kicked out of my mom's house when I was 16 because I was, you know, running around smoking pot and acting like a little devil child. And then my dad and I kind of always had a, we always butted heads with each other and then kind of, it was just

kind of like, I just kind of burned every bridge at the point. And my grandparents had just said, you know what, like, we'll take you in under these certain stipulations. I had to have a job. I had to bring them receipts for where I was going. I had to be in a certain time, like certain accountability that I never wanted to follow in my life for some reason. I just was like, you know what?

Like, I need to do it now. So where are you at with your folks now? My mom and I have like a really, really good relationship. Like better even than when I was a kid. Like we've kind of both come to terms with the things that happened when I was younger. And my dad and I, we kind of, I mean, it's a family can be kind of tricky sometimes.

And, you know, we'll talk here and there, but I just kind of, it's hard, you know, for me because he's my dad, but hopefully one day if it's intended to, it'll work out. But right now we talk when we can. Slow variety, man. Yeah, slow variety.

I feel you, it is, it's tricky, man. But time has a way of healing these things. Yeah, absolutely. Well, let's track it back, create a little context here. So paint me the picture of your wayward youth. So, I mean, growing up, my parents got divorced when I was five. And I was always the kid that was super, like, I love being active. I love playing sports with my friends.

I love, you know, playing, like, recreational sports. But I was just, like, the most terrible athlete ever. I couldn't run. I couldn't jump. And I could hardly balance myself. And so I was always like the one of the last ones picked. I was always like the slow one. And so, and on top of that, I was eating very poorly.

I mean like lunch or dinner, I was obsessed with like pasta and I would eat like pasta and butter for dinner. I would eat like cinnamon buns and like sausage for breakfast. And genetics didn't bless me with having one of those faster metabolisms. So it caught up to me real quick. But so when I was 12, I started gaining weight

and 10 to 12 years old, I was like a little heavier than most kids. And I started getting depressed because I had this divorce and I had these insecurities and I'm now being depressed. And then my luck with women wasn't very good. And then by the time I was 14, I just was looking for a way out.

And I got offered a hit off a marijuana pipe and I felt like this monkey come off my back. Like I could be myself again. I could be secure in who I was. I didn't have to worry about any problems I had in my life. And then it just like, we all know snowballs and the next thing, and I'm selling it to support my habit. And then I'm barely graduating high school because I didn't go to school as much as I should because I was skipping the smoke and started experimenting with Coke. Let's slow it down, man. There's plenty to, we got time. I want to understand this a little bit better. So start smoking pot at 14 and walk me through the path from that first hit to like, now I'm gonna start dealing, like I'm selling this. Well, so I was super lazy as a kid.

And so when I started smoking pot, I was like, oh my gosh, I love this and I need to do whatever I need to do to get more of it. That light, like the light switch just went on. This is for me, this is the answer to every problem I never knew that I had. Yeah, anything, any like, you know, insecurities, stress, anxiety, like anything was gone after I smoked pot.

Like I just felt at ease. And so I just started meeting people and asking them where I could buy more pot. And then the more I realized I loved it, I was like, hmm, well, me making $6 an hour here washing dishes, I can't afford to buy as much pot as I loved it. I was like, well, me making $6 an hour here, washing dishes, I can't afford to buy as much pot as I need to. So I'm going to start selling it to support my habit. And that's what ultimately led to me getting kicked out

of my mom's house when I was 16. I had a party when she was in the hospital, like right before my 16th birthday to try to fit in with kids. Cause that was like the thing you did in high school was you had parties when your parents were away well my parents didn't go away so I I left the bottom window unlocked and snuck back in after she went in the hospital and cops came to my townhouse and I thought it was a good idea to run you know for my own party

we're not gonna figure out like who lives here yeah so i mean you know an hour later i'm getting these calls from my neighbors my family like where are you get back here and they're back i went and and then it was about a few weeks later on my 16th birthday i was i was weighing out a little bit of pot to sell to one of my neighbors and told my brother, I was like, watch the door, so mom doesn't come in. And in she walks. And that was it. The next day, I was kicked out of her house that day.

That next day, I switched high schools, went from Delaney High School, which was a pretty preppier high school to up in the country where my dad lived, to North Hartford. It was like, they had the drive your tractor to school day. And the people who went there, they called them duck farmers. It's like North of Baltimore.

Yeah. It was like Harford County. So probably like from Baltimore city was probably like about an hour, hour North up towards the Pennsylvania line. And it was just a huge, huge humbling experience for me. And I guess they thought that it would kind of take me away from the drugs, but I mean. Right. So your parents deal with this in the way that they deal with it. But I would imagine you would say, irrespective of how they chose to handle it, like you were going to be an addict, like this was the path for you no matter

what. Is that fair? Yeah. With that light switch going on like that. I mean, I guess what I'm getting at, what I'm interested in hearing is given that there's a lot of parent age people that listen to this podcast and being a parent myself, I'm interested in like, what is the, there's the knee jerk parental reaction, like, oh my God, you know, let's catastrophize this versus what is the, there's the knee-jerk parental reaction, like, oh my God, you know, let's catastrophize this versus what is the healthier response? Like, how can you be loving and compassionate and understanding, but also firm and not

codependent when confronted with a situation like that? Well, I mean, I think with them, they just didn't really know how to handle it. They didn't understand it. I mean, it wasn't as, you know, back then I'm talking, you know, 15 years ago. I mean, it's so much more out and about now that they, they probably, my mom probably just did the best she could. And I mean, she didn't know what to do. She couldn't take the stress. I found out years later that she had multiple sclerosis and stress with that obviously doesn't, doesn't mend well. And know I guess the I always years later I remember saying to my mom a few years ago I said I wish you would have looked at why I was doing drugs

not the fact that I was because I had a lot of depression from the divorce I was being picked on at school my athletic ability was terrible and I had a huge passion for sports I was watching all these kids that were really really good at sports and I was always the kid that never made the teams and just looked on the sidelines being like, man, like, why not me? Right. And it just unfortunately led to a big downfall for me. Yeah. Yeah. It's hard to know what to look for. And it's like when you look in the rear view mirror, it's very clear, right? Oh, here it all lined up perfectly for it to unfold in this's like, when you look in the rear view mirror, it's very clear, right? Oh, here it all lined up perfectly for it to unfold in this way. But when you're in the moment of,

you have to be hyper-present and aware to see those signals, I think. Yeah, I mean, and I think they were still unpacking stuff from the divorce, because the divorce was pretty, it was rough. I mean, they weren't communicating hardly with each other only via email and there was child support stuff. Going through their own thing.

Yeah, custody and child support. So, I mean, they were battling their own things, you know, and I think, you know, having me make the choices I made just added fuel to the fire and they were like, you know what, like I've tried to talk to you and just get out. And it was at a point in my life, you know, that I was 16. I was going through, I was maturing as a man and being without my mom, because obviously, you know, when things don't go your way,

there was a violent like fight, like not physical, but like yelling at each other. I said some things I would never imagine saying ever again to her. And it just, it crushed me because my mom, I needed my mom in that time. I was struggling the most at that time in my life. And I just really, you know, hindsight's 20, 20, because our relationship right now, I mean,

it changed forever being that, you know, there was a point where I wasn't allowed to live with her anymore. I wasn't allowed in her house. That it changed the trajectory of our relationship forever. And it's just now being able to talk to her openly and be like, mom, like you're my mom and I love you, but I can't say I have the same emotional connection

that other people do with their moms because of, so because of the choices that I made and that we both made and where life took us and it's sad, but now we've both gotten to the point where we can talk to each other openly about it, which we never really had. I mean, it took, gosh, five, six, seven years for her to really come around and really be able to talk to me about it and forgive me. But that honesty is a bridge to greater intimacy. It may not be the intimacy that you see in movies, like the ideal mother-son relationship,

but the most intimate that it can be given the circumstances. What do you make of this current embrace of marijuana that we're seeing in our culture right now? Like it's super interesting times because for the most part, it's essentially legal and it's super easy to get. I mean, especially here in California, it's ubiquitous.

There is this kind of weird idea that's floating around out there that like pot is kind of part of the wellness world, like with CBD and the use is so profligate that it comes off as, at worst, benign, but perhaps a performance enhancer for certain people. And there are a lot of people out there that kind of use it all day long every day, and they seem fine. And yet you're somebody who, for better or worse, pot was like a gateway drug.

And it's almost laughable, like, oh, pot's a gateway drug. Ha, ha, ha. That's so not true. But in your case, that really was true. It was. And I get asked a lot, too, about it. And they're like, I just say, just obviously, just like anything else that depends on the person. I'm not for recreational marijuana. I mean, obviously the argument is, well, alcohol is legal.

Well, I mean, yeah, it is, but it doesn't make it right. And pot was a gateway drug for me because I couldn't smoke enough pot to get high anymore. I couldn't. There was a point where it stopped working for me. I developed some sincere paranoia just because it just stopped working. And I could only, I mean, I was smoking like a quarter ounce of pot a day. And for those listening who've ever smoked pot, that's a lot of pot. It's not like I was just smoking a joint a day.

And so that led to me wanting to experiment with other things, not only experiment, but meet other people. Because once you get into the game of you're starting to sell pot and you're starting to do more things, you start to meet people with harder drugs and more people doing it. And that's what led me ultimately to try something else that's going to alter my mind and cocaine. And then I learned cocaine and anxiety don't go well. It's like the worst possible thing. If you're starting to get paranoid on pot, then the move to cocaine is going to. But here's possible thing. And then if you're starting to get paranoid on, on pot, then the move to cocaine is going to. So, but here's the thing. And here's the other thing that I,

it's like more of like a lifestyle thing with the pot. Like, it's like you ride around with your friends and you smoke pot and you're listening to this or listening to that. And I couldn't give that up so much to the point where that's what started my, my opiate habit was that I couldn't smoke pot anymore with my friends because I was getting in crazy anxiety attacks. I was like, I wouldn't be able to drive. My friends were like laughing at me because I had no idea what was going on, but you know, I hadn't, I was having anxiety and I got offered a five milligram Percocet one day and I was able, again, that same monkey that came off my back when I was started smoking pot was the same monkey that came off my back when I took that five milligram

Percocet. I can get high again without having a panic attack. And I couldn't give up smoking weed. So that's the other thing. It's like you build this community of people you get high with and you smoke weed with. It's probably just as hard to let go of, aside from giving up pot, if you're somebody that it's impeding your life

or you're struggling with it. And a lot of people don't think about that. Yeah. So where does the Percocet take you? I mean, literally down the highway to hell. I mean, once I realized how much that could help me continue to smoke weed, I also realized how much it would numb the pain of me being in a point where I'm 18, 19, 20 years old and really disappointed in myself because I was a smart kid. I wanted to be like an accountant. There was times I wanted to be a kid. I wanted to be like an accountant. There was times I wanted to be a lawyer.

I wanted to be in the FBI. Like I had some big aspirations as a kid, but I lost a few friends to drinking and driving accidents when I was younger. And so I just thought I was going to die by the time I was 25. I just was like, well, it doesn't really matter. And so each time I would get high, I would just, it would numb the pain.

And I didn't really understand. I mean, I knew obviously I wasn't putting kale in my system, but I didn't realize how addictive this stuff was. You know, and I thought, well, I'm not doing heroin, so it's okay. And that was just my way of just making it seem like it's okay. Those goalposts are always moving too. You know, if you started doing heroin, it would be like, well, I'm snorting it.

I'm not shooting it. Or, yeah, I'm doing it, but I don't live in a flop house or whatever it is. I don't have abscesses in my arm, so I'm okay. Yeah, and then so the five milligrams turned into maybe needing to do 10 to get high and 20 and 40. turned into maybe needing to do 10 to get high and 20 and 40. And then to the point where I was buying the Oxy 80 milligrams and we were getting them from a guy who had cancer and was giving them to us. And it was just the thing, we were looking the time release off and I had blue dye and red dye and orange stuff all over my t-shirts.

And it got to the point where I was spending several hundred hours a day on opiates and doing some really bad things with my judgment that, you know, I just burned a lot of bridges with, with people. And I just developed a new group of friends that you weren't my friend unless you were getting high with me, or you could lead me to getting high. And it was just, it was bad. I mean, I was, I mean, half my left nose, my nostril was missing just from putting so much crap up there. I mean, half my left nose, my nostril was missing just from putting so much crap up there. So you were snorting Oxy.

Yeah. You grind it up to override the time release aspect of it. Oh, yeah. And I wouldn't do anything unless it was like pure Oxy cotton, like codon. And where were you getting it? Just from connections I had made from the drug world. Or I had a friend that worked at a pharmacy. and then I had somebody that knew somebody who had cancer. And there's obviously a huge market in that.

And they were a lot cheaper than they are now. I mean, now like the street value, I think it's like doubled since I was doing it. I mean, I think you get like an 80 milligram Oxycontin pill for like 40, 50 bucks. And now it's way more than that from what I hear. And how would you, for somebody who's never taken that, or has never done opiates,

like explain the feeling of, you know, a day on Oxy. Like, what is it, you know, what is it doing for you? Like what, you know, this is, I mean, this is an epidemic. Yeah, I mean. There are millions of people that are hooked on hillbilly heroin. It's a gigantic problem. So, you know, what's the allure?

I mean, you'd be riding around with your friends or with your friends looking like almost like it's another high learning how you're going to score drugs for the day. And then you couldn't really eat because you didn't have any appetite because you were half withdrawing without having it. Once you finally did figure out who had the best deal

or who you could con to get them you get them you you know like i said we would lick the time releases off we crush them up on a dvd case like always snort them with a hundred dollar bill i was like oh and off a blow dvd case you know that was the way that the cool thing to do it right right okay oh god um and and then we would go eat. And a meal for me would be a cheesesteak and two slices of pizza and french fries. And then we would sit on the couch and just talk about dumb stuff all day. Good times, man. Yeah, like veg out and watch The Wizard of Oz or something.

Or watch just movies. And I mean, nothing really productive. Play Xbox, play FIFA soccer. I mean, we did a lot of playing FIFA. And you just- But your life gets really small. It does. And you don't realize how small it gets.

You think that's it. You think that life isn't going to get any better. And you don't realize that you don't have to go get high before you go to a football game. Or you don't realize you don't have to go get high before going to dinner with your mom and you don't you don't realize like what you're doing and how other people kind of see that whether they're judging you or not but you just all of a sudden think that like what you're doing is like it's okay and you're once you get out of it you're like I can't believe I did that stuff was there an awareness that you had a problem or did you just think I can stop at any time?

For a while, I really didn't think I had a problem. I mean, I knew what I was doing wasn't right, but that's all my friends and I did. So my community around me, that's what we did. So it was a normal thing. Like my community around me, that's what we did. So it was like a normal, it was a normal thing. It wasn't really until I started really not being able to get out of bed when I was, you know, got myself above the like 150 milligram a day habit that I was like, dang, I can't get out of bed without like feeling awful that something's gotta, something's gotta give. And then when I would try to like, you know, withdraw a detox on my own, I would think about everything again.

Like my life would come up, all the choices I'd made and all the people I'd, you know, pissed off and where I was headed. And then the stress of selling drugs that I was like, well, I can't comfortable my own skin. I got to find a way to get more drugs, no matter what. And you know how it goes. It's just-

Yeah, the pain of that tidal wave of emotions and shame and guilt and anxiety and depress, all of that comes just toppling down on you so hard that you have to go back. I think that's what a lot of people don't understand about the cycle of addiction. You have this well-intentioned desire. You understand like, I can't live like this anymore.

And you take a stab at trying to get better. And then the minute you start to experience that, the pain, the emotional pain of it is so severe that you're just like, fuck it, I got to go back. Yeah. I mean, a lot of people think that people like want to be addicted to drugs and it's like, I don't think anybody wants to. I mean, who wants to live a life like that? I mean, and, you know, everybody wants to get well and they have the intentions of doing so, but like they don't just don't think they can or they don't know how to,

or they've just had so much trauma in their life that they have no confidence in themselves at all that they don't even like believe that they can go two hours without it. It's really sad. hours without it. It's really sad. So this whole house of cards comes toppling down on you. Yeah, sure. So yeah, share that aspect of the journey. Yes. So, you know, you're not exactly the brightest person when you're, you know, putting copious amounts of

drugs up your nose. And my friends, parents, it was funny, you know, as I had torn relationships with my family growing up, my friends' parents like kind of like filled in and were always kind of there for me. You know, even though where I didn't have a place to stay because I didn't want to abide by rules or whatnot, I would sleep on couches. And my one friend's dad was like, Doug, you're riding around with, everybody knew what I was doing. They knew I was riding around selling a bunch of pot. They knew I was like, you know,

the goofball, like snorting oxy. And they're like, you better change your headlight. They're like, that's like a red flag to get pulled over by a cop. Yeah. And, you know, of course I was like the king of being, the king of procrastination and I never did it. And Cinco de Mayo 2008, I'm riding around with a few of my friends to go pick up some Oxycontin.

I had a half a pound of pot in my trunk, hidden in where the spare tire was, thinking, don't worry, no one will ever find it here. Like, and had a bunch of cash. And all of a sudden, I'm like coming, and there's a cop a cop coming on the opposite or running radar on the opposite side. And I flash my high beams at him, thinking that it would hide the fact that I didn't have a headlight. Of course, it gave him reason to pull me over. He's like, why is this guy high beaming me on Cinco de Mayo? Which, of course, I completely forgot was one of the biggest drinking holidays of the year. And it's like, you know.

Any excuse to pull you over. Yeah. So he pulls me over, and it's me and two of the year. And it's like, you know, any excuse to pull you over. Yeah. So he pulls me over and it's me and two of my friends, my heart's racing. I'm like, holy crap. Like I just had this gut feeling that like, this was it. Like I'm done. Like I just had a feeling something was going to happen. And I was like, I have all this stuff in my car. What do I do? Where am I going to hide it? A cop like approaches my window, you know, asks me to put my window down, which had happened before I've've been pulled over before and luckily didn't get caught, but this was different. It felt different to me. And all of a sudden, one of my friends in

the back seat had an open container of beer he was drinking. And the smell of alcohol was like wafting out the car. He's drinking like a Natty Light or something. Right. Of course. out the car you know he's drinking like one like a now like a natty light or something right of course and and he wouldn't give up the the cop was like i smell beer and um and the guy my friend ended up like not really at first relinquishing the can of beer and i was like dude just give it to him like he might let us just go like trying's like trying to hide it. Because I was only 20 years old. We were all, you know. And so he ends up giving it to him. And, you know, then he asked me more questions. He's like, do I have the right to search?

He's like, I give me reason to believe that, you know, you have some legal stuff in here. Do I have the right to search your car? And for some reason I said, yes, go ahead. And then he's like, all right, come out of the car. And, you know, hindsight's always 20-20. If I'd said no, what would have happened? But I mean, neither here nor there. And I said, yes, he pulls me out of the car.

I said, well, they're never going to find me. The pot's in the spare tire, right? And out comes the pot and all the money. And my heart was already racing. It was like racing twice as fast, like crying. I was thinking about all the negative choices and all the things that have happened, the choices I made and everything that had happened to me

that had come to that, it all came to a point. And as I'm sitting in the back of that cop car, I just didn't think I was going to make it, Rich. I got to tell you, like, I thought that was it. I thought I was going to either spend the rest of my life incarcerated or just kill myself. I mean, something bad I thought was going to really happen ended up being the biggest blessing in my life. Well, I would submit to you, and I'm sure you've thought about this, but perhaps on some level,

albeit maybe an unconscious level, you wanted to get caught. Because if you had people saying, look, man, you got to change your light out. Yeah, you can chalk that up to laziness. But the fact that you didn't get your headlight fixed, you turned a blind eye to the fact that it was Cinco de Mayo. And when the cop asked you if he could search your car, you said, sure, fine. There's something inside of you, I think, that was trying to save yourself by getting caught. Yeah, you're probably right. I mean, I just, I had no other way out. There was no other way out. I knew I was going to get to a point where I was either dead in jail

or a combination of both because my friends and I always like joked around that we weren't going to, what's the point of like living past 30 if we can't like party hard anymore? Right. And so I just was like, I had to come to that realization that that was going to be my life. And then I remember getting, going to jail and you spend that night in jail that was, you know, it's awful. Right. Cause you're like, I'm like high on opiates, but hadn't gotten the next high that I wanted. So it was like a total buzzkill,

like to the fullest extent. And then, um, so I put like 70,000 miles in that car. I got pulled over and selling drugs. And I was also a delivery boy. So it gave me delivering pizzas. Yeah. So it gave me an excuse to like ride around and, and, you know, a couple of buddies and I worked at the same pizza shop. So we would park our car at like a burger King. We'd all ride together and go on like a high ride and smoke weed together and, you know and pinch off like French fries here and there out of people's foods. But I put 70,000 miles on my car. And so a few weeks later after I got arrested, I didn't change my oil and I was driving on 695 and my car like blew up. Like it just started smoking. That was it. It just died on the side of the road. And I'm like, oh man.

So my grandparents. Well, it's a metaphor. Just like, you know, just like ride it hard until the whole thing just blows up in your face. Yeah. And my grandparents talk about another like silly, not silly choice, but it was almost like I, that I almost wanted to make was, you know,

we met with, I mean, I got charged with a felony, the intent to distribute marijuana and, you know, possession, a paraphernalia and stuff. And I knew the only one that really mattered was when I got arraigned for the felony charge. And my grandparents were like, all right, we'll give you money to pay for a lawyer or to get you a car. And I was like, well, if I don't have a car,

I can't do drugs or sell drugs. Right. And I was like, well, if I don't have a car, I can't do drugs or sell drugs. Right. And I was in the whole- You're a genius. And I was in the whole five grand to a drug dealer. So, because when I got busted, I was already, like leading up to my arrest, like I had been robbed. Somebody like ripped me off like a half a pound of pot. And I was in the hole a couple thousand to him already. And I was trying, I was literally done. I remember going to my grandparents and we were just talking about this. I said, I'm done selling drugs. I was like, can you please just lend me the money

to pay this guy off and be done with it? And they said, no, we're not funding like a criminal activity for you. I find it kind of charming though, that you're honest with your grandparents. So I'm selling drugs and I'm in trouble. Can you help? Well, they kind of like, I want to, but it was, we were talking about this recently and I was, it was almost like the biggest blessing because if they did, it would have just given, I don't, who knows where I would be now. And so when I owe this guy five grand,

I ended up, you know, getting like a geo prism or something that was like, that the driver door ended up like breaking. So I had to like, Dukes of Hazzard it to get in every time. It was like the awful, most awful thing to pick up a date in. But so I owed this guy five grand and he was obviously after me for $5,000. It's not like I owed him like $20.

And my brother actually ran into one of my roommates at one of the local bars and my roommate had told him what was going on. And my brother called me and was like, hey man, like I heard what happened. And I heard you owe this guy money. He's like, I want to give it to you. I was like, ah man, don't,

you don't want to get yourself involved in that. And he's like, no, I want to. I was like, all right. And so we met at the bank. He gave me, pulled out five grand in cash. He was one of my brothers, a couple of years younger than me. And he was always the kid who like saved all his money.

I spent all my money. He saved all his. And I remember meeting this drug dealer at a, we were at like Outback or Carrabba's or a restaurant like that. And I just gave him the money and I just said, listen, man, I'm done. And I thought that would close a chapter in me

and not being in debt to my, not being in debt and working on paying my brother back. But you know, one thing led to the next and I'm gonna end up borrowing more money to get high and borrow more money and borrow more money. And to the point where now I've owed him and my brother only nearly $10,000 for drugs and lying about what I needed it for.

And so September, I got arrested in May, and this kind of all transpired with paying my drug dealer off in the months to follow. And September, I went to court, and I was high in court. I was supposed to like, they were like, you better pass some drug tests before you come to show you've been clean. They didn't do that. Did you just have a public defender?

Yeah. My dad knew a guy who was a general attorney. He wasn't any high power attorney or anything. I guess just somebody there was just to be there with me. I had no idea what to expect all the lawyers i had talked to were like you're gonna you're definitely doing jail time it was my first offense but they're like you're in harford county which is like a super conservative county and um they're like you had like a lot of pot and they found a scale and you admitted that you had

drugs like that you admitted that everything in your car was yours. And your lawyer didn't say, listen, man, you got to at least post up at some AA meetings and get a court card signed. And so you can show the judge that you're trying to mend your ways. I think they had said something like that. I remember I walked in and I just didn't really matter. I didn't care.

And I got to court and the judge looked at me and he was like, you know, he had asked me serious questions, was cross-examining me. And I just, obviously I admitted everything. And the lawyer had said, hey, we've kind of made a deal with him that he's going to give you the maximum sentence, but I think you're going to like what he has to say. And I was like, maximum sentence. And so he looks at me and he's like, Doug, you know, I find you, you know, guilty of felony, the felony drug charge, intent to distribute marijuana. And he dropped the other stuff.

But he said, I'm going to sentence you to five years, suspended everything but 90 days, meaning I just had to do the 90-day jail sentence. And I was backing up the five. Five years probation, 200 hours community service, all kinds of drug classes and fines. And he's like, Doug, and then I had to abide by the rules of parole and probation. And he's like, but if you complete everything without messing up after the five years is up, I'll take the felony off your record. And I remember looking at him in court

and I was 20 years old. And I didn't think I was gonna live to see my 25th birthday. And I was like, yeah, whatever. And I was doing the math. It was like 2008. I was like, well, isn't the world gonna end in 2012? Like that whole thing, right? So I was like, yeah, whatever. And I was doing the math. It was like 2008. I was like, well, isn't the world going to end in 2012? Like that whole thing, right? So I was like, five years.

I was like, I'm going to find time to get off probation. I'm not going to be able to experience life. Yeah. And yeah, and I got out. I mean, that's pretty amazing. 90 days. Yeah. Jail time.

Yeah. And then everything else you can deal with outside. Yeah, and I didn't know how because to that point, I hadn't found a successful way to stop doing drugs. I was like, how am I going to do this? But I knew I had to because if I completed everything, the felony would come off my record. But I had no idea. And then I got out of court, and I completed everything, the felony would come off my record. But I had no idea. And then I got out of court, and I went to go get high again.

And it was definitely the one last hoorah. I went to jail a week after my 21st birthday, so a few weeks later, because he gave me some time to get my belongings, spend some time with my family, which I didn't really do. And I remember reporting to jail. Right before I reported to jail, it was like like I'm going to do as much Oxy as I can I got a prescription of Suboxone to take in with me because I was like alright well I'm going to detox and they're hard so I'm going to need something

to like wean me off and of course I didn't realize Suboxone was a narcotic I'm not going to let you bring that in I thought they would and so I literally did, I think, like two or three 80 milligram pills before I went in. I literally did them. Suboxone.

No, of Oxy and Androgyne. And then had the Suboxone with me thinking I could take it. And then I get there, they strip me of all your belongings and my life's confined to a small cell with a bag. And they're like, you can't take the don't know. I'm like, why? And it's prescribed to me. They're like, it's a narcotic. I was like, oh no. And then, you know, day one, it was just like, it was hell. I mean, I had no idea what was going to happen in there. I was like, you know, you're, you're worried about all this stuff, all the stigmas of jail getting beat up, you know, getting taken advantage of, you know. And I just, I didn't know what to expect because I was, I could have been a model for Pillsbury at the time.

Like I was heavy, I was unathletic. I couldn't defend myself if I wanted to. And then I get to jail and, you know, I ended up getting kicked out of my first two cellmate cells because I didn't read, you know, jail 101 on how to abide by the rules. I mean, I ended up

crawling into my first cellmate's bottom bunk when he was out doing some stuff in the common area because I was so weak, I couldn't get up to the top bunk because, and he comes in, he's like, what are you doing? And out I went, like, luckily I didn't get my butt kicked. And then my second one was this older guy. I ended up doing something to piss him off. I was out of toilet paper or something. He used his washcloth to wipe my butt or something. That doesn't sound like a good idea. I don't know that you needed to read a manual on Jail 101 to understand that that was probably a bad move.

Well, I mean, I know. I just wasn't obviously. I was like a complete. The people in there were like, you were a zombie when I mean, I know. I just wasn't obviously, I was like a complete, the people in there were like, you were a zombie when I first came in there. And I detoxed for like two or three weeks, like hard, like, I mean, you know, vomiting, feeling like you're crawling out of your own skin. And I saw this guy, like, he came up to me at the, he was playing Scrabble. He's like, what are you doing in here, man? He was assuming to be my cellmate. I'm like, I don't know. And then that night after dinner, I saw him working out.

He was like, you know, climbing the stairs and doing like thousands of pushups. And I was like, oh my God, like running, like David Goggin style. You know what I mean? And I just like, who is this guy? And he had been, I've come to find out, he had been in for 10 years. He was in the jail. I was in on a detainer for violating a probation. And he just looked at me.

And somehow he asked me a little bit about me. I shared a little bit of my story. He was an opiate addict. And he just kind of was like, you're going to start working out with me. And I was like, there's no way, man. There's no way I'm going to work out with you. Because at the time, I had never really done any organized exercise. I was in the gym class here and there.

I mean, my parents got me a trainer, but nothing like that lasted, that stuck. It was almost like they knew I needed to lose weight because I was always a fat kid. And I remember finally, after him being my cellmate, because he finally like, it just happened when I pissed off this old guy, his cellmate left. And then he was like, all right, you're in with me. And he was like, why don't you get through your detox, which is, you know, about three weeks later, you're going to start working out with me. And the first night, man, Rich, I tell you, it was the most humbling night. I mean, if I hadn't been humbled enough by the stuff, like being able to not do a pushup from your knees in front of a bunch of grown men But the stuff, like being able to not do a pushup from your knees in front of a bunch of grown men or hold yourself up in a plank and then have your guy tell you it's because you're fat is so humbling.

Well, I got a whole bunch of questions. Go ahead. I mean, first of all, could you not have gotten high in jail? I mean, there really wasn't. Would it have been possible to score? There was some stuff that came in, but not really. Not where I was. If you had read Jail 101, maybe you would have known how to hustle that up for yourself. Yeah, I think so. I think people would come in and spend weekends, and that's, I think, when some of the stuff would come in. But it wasn't like I was in state prison.

Yeah, you're not in prison. It's different, right? Yeah. I mean, there's not a lot of drug trade that goes on in there because people are just, I think, trying to get in and get out of there or trying to await their court and not mess up, hopefully, before they go to court. All right. of get in and get out of there or trying to wait their court and not mess up, hopefully, before they go to court. All right. And so the second thing is then, was there like a commitment to yourself? Like, okay, I'm going to get through this detox and I'm going to get sober?

Or was it just like, I can't get anything in my system today, so I guess it is what it is. Was there a sense of like, I got to like sort this out for myself and get on a new track? It was more just a panic. Like as I was going through it, I didn't know, I didn't, I didn't know. I'd never gone through this before. So I had no idea what to expect.

You've never done a full detox. No, what to expect. And I was shaken. And I mean, I don't know if I had at that point, I didn't really have a desire to be like, I'm never doing drugs again. I just was like, I need to get through this detox so I can like stop crying and stop shaking

and stop feeling so nauseous all the time. And the pain, the aches came because, you know, I've taken copious amounts of painkillers that I'm like, so like numb. And then, you know, I had to wake up once I got through that, which was really tough. I had to realize that I had nothing in my system anymore to numb the pain. So all the stuff just came before my eyes of all the stuff I'd done, all the stuff I'd never

really dealt with inside. And it took a lot because there was no drugs. There was no, And it took a lot because there was no drugs. There was no gambling or spending money or whatever would fill the void. It was just me. And I really had no choice. I mean, and then like you get through detox and you realize, well, like, whoa, like I'm in jail right now.

Like, your mind starts to become less foggy and they're like, I got to eat that for lunch. And it was like, like sweaty meat sandwiches. It was like mystery bologna meat. And more like peanut butter and jelly, which wasn't, I would look forward to the peanut butter and jelly days. The reality of your situation kind of dawns on you. Well, yeah.

And then when my cellmate was like, you're going to start working out with me. I just, I was like, what else do I have to do in here? We can only play spades, pinochle, scrabble, and chess and tell war stories for so long before I got to do something else. Right. So this guy, Eric is his name, right? He becomes your cellmate. And this guy, not only is he, you know, this fitness specimen, like he takes a real, more than a real interest in you. Like he basically becomes obsessed with getting you fit. Like he really takes you under his wing.

And like, this guy changes your life for better or worse, right? So why, like what motivated him to be so committed to you? I think he might've saw something inside of me that just struck a nerve with him. They saw how much I was struggling. And for him, he probably was in a, he knew he was in a spot where he had made

some poor decisions to get to where he was and to make himself feel better. You know, cause we all want to be of service, right? It's like a natural thing for us to want to help other people that that was part of what he wanted was, well, I'm in, he's like, you know, I'm sure he was like, you know, I'm in jail right now. I got nothing else to do.

Why not this kid here, this poor goofy kid who's a train wreck right now and kind of like was like the Amy Drezner, right? Like, how about I try and change this kid's life? And I don't know why, but I don't know why he picked me out of all the people but I just think because as much as I wanted to quit on him

I never quit and why do you think you never quit what got lit up inside of you that made you suddenly go from being you know the Pillsbury Doughboy type guy up inside of you that made you suddenly go from being,

just the Pillsbury dough boy type guy to being like, I'm not gonna let this guy down. I'm gonna show up. I'm gonna do everything he says. Well, I think when I couldn't do a pushup from my knees and I could barely walk up and down the steps. And like, I was like in the realization of what my situation actually was. I was like, what have I come to?

And then they also, like a lot of the people in my past, like didn't believe in me. Like they didn't believe me. They're like, you're not going to make it. Like you're going to rehab when you get out and dah, dah, dah, dah. Like all the negative stuff that I had no one, no one like believed I was going to really make it. And I just wanted to prove people wrong. And then once I was able to see some progress, like I once I was able to see some progress, like I think I was able to do, like I said, a few pushups from my knees. I was like, wow, there's magic in this. And then once I, and then Eric, for some reason,

I believed everything he said for everything. And I think I could just feel in my heart that it was like authentic and genuine from a place where he was coming from. He had nothing to lose, right? And then it just, it really started where we set the goal to do 10 pushups when I left and then to run a mile.

And I felt like this light switch start to go off in my head, like the same monkey that I felt come off my back when I was smoking pot was the same monkey come off my back when I was running. And I would run and even, and sometimes like, I mean, at the start, I could obviously only run like a 10th

of a mile, we'd have like this common area inside jail where all the tables were set out at and there'd be TVs and there'd be people playing Scrabble and games and stuff. And you could run around the perimeter. So I would hold like a call, like a deck of cards and I would count, you know, one, two, like the laps. And so one of the- How big was this room? It wasn't big. I don't remember how many laps was a mile. It must've been like, I don't know. It was a lot. So there's no gym. No, no gym. You're just,

you're doing pushups on the floor in the common room and yeah, on the concrete. It's like, you know, and, and so I just felt like, I felt like I could be able to kind of relieve the stress of whatever I had going on in my life by running, by doing pushups, by starting to achieve some goals. Like I was able to do a few pushes from my knees. That led to me doing a pushup from my feet. And then I was starting to see some differences in my body because he put me on like a jailhouse food plan where I couldn't eat the bread and I couldn't eat like the Snickers bars. And, you know, we did have cheat meals on Sunday. We would call them like hookups where we would take all our like, we take ramen, we get ramen noodles off commissary, cheesy rice, like the little dude, like little sausages and the meat from the week. And we'd put it all in a plastic trash bag and use boiling water, tie it off.

And then like let it sit for like 30 minutes, you know, like Thanksgiving in the joint. Super gourmet. Yeah. It's like amazing. I remember when I got out, I'm like, I'm like, guys, you want a hookup? And they're like, what?

You want a hookup? No, no, I'm like, make you a hookup. And they were like, and I was telling them, they're like, dude, that sounds absolutely disgusting. But so then my, all the people inside of the jail, like besides my cellmate, were like cheering me on because they saw when I came in, I was a zombie. I was getting kicked out of cells. I was like, you know, freaking out, asking a million questions about what jail was going to be like. And then like the consistency, they saw the consistency of me running.

And when I was able to do the pushups, I remember my dad and my brothers coming in to visit me. And this was like the turning point for me. And he was, he wanted me to, he was very stern about me going to rehab and this and that. And I just didn't, I was like, listen, I was like, screw rehab. I found fitness. And whether I believed it or not, I had to believe in myself because if I didn't believe in it at all, I wouldn't have been, I wouldn't have gotten started to be where I am today. And he started yelling at me. I remember just hanging up.

I was like, how much worse can it be? I'm in jail right now. And I hung up the phone, walked out, and walked into my cell. I was like, let's fucking work out. And he was like, what the heck just happened to you? And I just told him how my dad and I got in a fight. And he was like, let that inspire you. And I just told him how my dad and I got in a fight, and he was like, let that inspire you.

And that's what kept me going was all the people, the things that doubted me, all the stuff that I never was able to accomplish fueled my inspiration to change. It really did. other people I've had on the show who've been in, you know, comparable predicaments from John McAvoy, Chris Schumacher, who was in on a murder charge, Charlie Engel, who would just run around the, you know, basically running ultra marathons. And my sense is that when you're in an environment where you're stripped of, you know, your freedom and on some level, your dignity, there's so little that you have control over, right? And how you move your body throughout the day is something that you do have control over. And it's a way of maintaining that sense of self and saying, you know, you could take this from me, but you can't take that. Yeah. I mean, I had nothing else, nothing else to do. And that was the, one of the hardest parts,

to be honest, was leaving. I cried when I left because I had no idea had nothing else to do. And that was one of the hardest parts, to be honest, was leaving. I cried when I left because I had no idea what was going to happen. Well, you had a community, it sounds like. I mean, not only did you have this guy, Eric, you had all these people cheering for you. And if you ask somebody like Gabor Mate or Johan Hari about the roots of addiction. You know, Johan famously always says like the opposite of addiction isn't sobriety, it's connection, right?

And you develop this connection with these people in a way that's healthier from your boys that you're driving around in stone with. Oh yeah. And suddenly you're gonna be extracted from that environment. Like, of course, I would suspect that that was terrifying for somebody who's newly sober,

who really doesn't know what to expect when they go back out into the world. Yeah, I mean, I just, that was one of my biggest fears. Like, what am I gonna do now without these people? What am I gonna do? And I remember there was one night I cheated on my diet and my cellmate, he was always like, if you cheat on your diet, I'm punching you in the stomach. And I knew it was really doughy. And if he punched me in the stomach, I might end up in like the jail

ER. And so I never cheated, but there was one night I just, and somebody told on me. I remember I hated it, but I needed it. And he was like, all right, Doug, you know the deal. You're either going to run like two miles or I'm punching you. Some other dude ratted you out. I'm like, dude, what the heck? He's a prison rat. Yeah. I can't believe you snitched on me. He's like, dude, I'm doing it for, I'm just trying to help you out. And I remember writing my mom this letter when I was in jail. And it was funny. I just was going through. The reason I say this is because it kind of brings some things into perspective. Is my mom and I, she was the one that I always had just, I wish I hadn't done some of the things that I did.

Because I know I really hurt her. And she was emotionally kind of timid from the divorce and obviously the MS and everything. And I was going through a file with her, probably it must've been six months, maybe, I mean, not even six months ago, maybe three or four months ago. And she's like, I found this in my house. And it said, Doug Jail.

It was like a manila folder with like my court documents in it. And it was some letters I had written her. And the one letter, which I completely forgot that I wrote her, was just talking about how much I'm changing while I'm in there. And that I don't know, I just want her to be happy when I talked to her on the phone and that I'm not going to let her down. Like all like stuff. I mean, I don't remember exactly what it said, but it was something of that nature. And then I look back at it now and I'm like, holy crap, like it really happened. And I remember writing those letters

and not even really thinking that things were going to change. I had no idea because I knew that I got it. I had to get out and I had to deal with stuff on my own. Then I had all this probation and I had to battle for the next five years of not failing a drug test. Because my judge was like, you know, if he said to me, he said,

if I see you in my courtroom again, you're going to be sharing a cell with Bubba. And I knew I wouldn't last long with Bubba. Bubba's not Eric. No. No. So a couple of days before I got out, you know, there was a lot of emotions between me and Eric. I was like, what am I going to do without you?

He said, you'll be fine. He's like, I said, how can I ever pay you back, right? And he said, just keep paying it forward. Keep helping other people and keep doing you. Like keep, he gave me like a foundation. He gave me a workout plan that I still have framed in my place today. So I never forget where I came from that has like our, some of the original stuff he told me to do, whether it was like five or six sets of pushups one day. And the next day it was running three to five miles. And, but he had some, some words on there. He said, remember, you're no longer a fat ass again. I never have to be one again. Like eat smart. Like it's, I'm not there. It's up to you. And. Cause he's still in jail. I don't

know where he's at now. I mean, him and I, we had, we'd stay, we actually worked out together a few times when he got out. Um, but I don't know what, I know he was kind of still in and out of some stuff. I don't know where he was, but like I dedicated my first book to him. If he ever called me, I would pick up the phone. And I remember writing him a letter when I first got out and I lived with my grandparents and it was so cold. It was like, you know, in January and I wrote him a letter.

I was like, it's cold out. I can't run outside. He's like, I train machines, not pussies. He said that to me in a letter or something like that. I like that he still thinks he's your trainer. He was like, you better go out and buy a pair of sweatpants. And you know, that, that kind of, those kinds of words don't speak to everybody. And I get that, but to me it did like, it's just, it was just what I needed to hear. Um, and him being hard on me. And for some reason- Just being honest, like you're a fat ass.

Yeah. You're fat. What do you want from me? Yeah. He was like, and I was wondering why can't I do it? Like, why can't, he's like, you're fat. Like you have a load of fat. You have no core strength.

He's like, and like a lot of the lessons he taught me and a lot of what about not giving up on myself and helping other people and unconditional love were things I still carry on with me today that have kind of really influenced my recovery and my relationships with other people. So you get released. You're a felon. Right. You're young. You're a young guy.

You got your whole life ahead of you. But it's gotta be disorienting and confusing. Like, what am I gonna do now? Yeah, I mean, I still had a lot of my same friends and not that they were bad people, but I couldn't jive with that lifestyle anymore. And so I lived with my grandparents and they gave me the rules of,

you're going to stay here. You can stay here rent-free. We'll buy you your food. We'll give you money to go do whatever, as long as we have receipts for what you're doing. And then you got to clean up after yourself and have a job. But if like the minute you don't follow those rules,

you're out, which is what I needed. And so I kept, obviously after my cellmate's first letter, I began to run, I got myself some sweatpants. I would work out in their basement doing pushups and jumping jacks and whatever else was part of the routine he gave me. And then when I built enough confidence in myself, I joined like a local Planet Fitness,

but I had to look for a job. Cause I had like 20 jobs by the time I went into jail. Like, I mean, I worked at restaurants, still run pizza. I mean, I had quite the resume of somebody you don't want to hire because I lasted like a few months at each job where I'd be like, well, I can make $7 an hour, go sell drugs. And ironically, after banging on the doors for months,

checking the box that I'm a convicted felon, I got hired at a liquor store. So to me, I was like, well, I mean, this is either going to make me want to like drink like crazy, or it's going to make me not want to drink hardly at all. And it really like influenced, it showed me like, obviously the other lifestyle that I had never really seen. I'd never really seen people like banging on the doors before a liquor store opened to get alcohol. I'd never seen that. Cause alcohol was never my thing. It was just, I was,

I didn't even like the taste of it really. I mean, I couldn't even drink beer. It was kind of gross. And so I worked there and while most would say it's a horrible decision, I mean, I somehow they gave me a chance. I was open with them about my felony. I was able to, I showed up to work every day.

I just took that as an opportunity of gratitude for somebody giving me a chance. I continued to work, I made time to I showed up to work every day I just took that as an opportunity of gratitude for somebody giving me a chance I continued to I made time to work out whether it was before I went to work after I went to work so I was working 40 hours a week and I just built some great relationships with the people I worked with and ended up last and um about it was weird rich like my whole like outlook on work changed like every time I was going to work before I went to jail, it was like, I can't wait to leave. I cannot wait to leave. I don't want to be here anymore. But here, I just had this different mentality of, all right, I'm here to work.

I got to do my job. And then when I'm done, I can leave. And I don't know what changed. But I guess it was the combination of me feeling better about myself and also the fact that I had a new lifestyle that I thought I was embracing. And within a few months after getting released, after I got the job, Saturday nights became watching Food Network with my grandparents. Right. There's that thing when you're in the throes of addiction.

I went through a lot of this where it's like, you just, you feel trapped. Like if you're in a job, you're, you're, you're like a caged animal and you just can't wait to leave because when you leave, then you can go use. Right. And then when you're sober, that gets taken away and you have this mindset shift of, that goes from like, what, what can I, you know, what's the maximum that I can extract out of this experience for myself in a very selfish way to what can I contribute? And the more you get into that kind of service-oriented contribution mindset, then shockingly, the more gratifying the experience is and the less you feel like a caged animal who wants to leave. Yeah, I completely agree. It was

more like, you said like, how much am I getting paid for this job? When can I come? When can I leave? How can I try and score drugs on my lunch break? I mean, I was working at a car wash having people stop through to buy drugs for me while I was working to now being- That's some hustle.

That's some dumb hustle. Because this guy, my boss at the time came up to me. He's like, man, you realize this guy accused me of taking a pound of weed out of his car. He's like, a pound? You know how much that is? And I'm like, yeah. I'm thinking to myself, I have one in my trunk right now.

But still working at the liquor store, I was able to just, you know. People were starting to notice, to respond to me differently. They're like, wow, you're so passionate. You're so happy. And it was just a complete shift in mindset. And I guess the help of me exercising just made it all better. Yeah. So why did you not go to try to find community in AA or in 12-step?

I mean, I did go to one NA meeting when I was in jail, but just to solely get out of my jail cell. It wasn't like I wanted to do anything with it. I just, I don't know. I didn't really, I didn't know anybody who went to AA. So it wasn't like, I didn't really know anybody. So I just, I kind of just thought, okay, I'm going to work out. I'm going to run. I'm going to eat better.

And if I can lose weight and feel better about myself, that'll make me not want to like mask my insecurities with drugs anymore. And if I can just follow the rules of what my grandparents said in the job I currently had in probation, that I wouldn't mess up anymore. So it wasn't that I didn't want. It was never really in front of me. There was mandatory outpatient classes I went to for, I don't know, it was like eight weeks, once a week or something. I had to pee in a cup. Those are super depressing, though.

Yeah. Yeah. I was like, oh, my gosh. So, I mean, there was that. Well, that's the weird thing with NA and 12-step that the anonymity is part of the whole deal, right? So, with that, I mean, there's benefits and advantages to that because if you're in there you have you know you can remain anonymous but at the same time it prevents the program from being known to somebody like yourself right who's like well i don't know anyone there and i don't even know where it is and you know and then you're just left to your own imagination about how horrible it probably is and then you never go yeah i mean i didn't really have anybody i knew i mean, I knew a few people that had tried to get

sober and whatnot, but like, I really didn't know it. I didn't know anybody. Like I really, I didn't know. And so I just kind of kept on the path of running and, and then working out, which worked. I mean, I would, my, my personality changed, my outlook on life changed. My passion for wanting to help other people was like greater than ever. And then it like, obviously it led me to wanting to be, to become a trainer about a year and a half later to help other people, you know, use fitness to change their lives in the way that it changed mine. So it's been a little over a year, 10 or 11 years at this point. Yeah. I mean, I went to jail October 21st, 2008. I got released December 26th, 2008. Yeah. So, I mean, it's been almost, I mean, over 10 years. I mean, I've had-

Went to jail on the day after my birthday. Yeah, that's right. Because you're a Libra too, right? October 20th. Yeah. My birthday is the 13th. Oh, it is. Wow. So, a week after your birthday. It's like my 21st birthday. It's supposed to be like celebratory. And never having had a relapse? No, I mean, I've had some like drinks here and there, like a glass of wine here, a glass of wine.

Because, you know, to me, like, and again, I didn't get involved in that 12-step community. I know in the 12-step community, it's, you know, complete abstinence, total abstinence. I know in the 12-step community, it's complete total abstinence. So my understanding was as long as I'm not doing the drugs, I was abusing like opiates and Coke and pot, that I was good. And I never had to think, honestly, I could have a glass of wine and I might not drink for two years. I mean, there's been times I haven't drank for years and I just can take it or leave it.

And I had a friend tell me who's in recovery, say sometimes kids, when they get sober at a young age, they're able later in life to experience alcohol. In some cases, you know, drink here or there. And again, I don't know. I mean, I don't know if it works. Yeah, that's dangerous for me. Yeah, no, I know. There's a joke that I have with some of my friends, some of which like I of which, I have friends that are like 35 years sober. They're like my age or in their 40s. They got sober super young. And I always joke with them, you could probably drink now. It'll be fine. And they laugh because they know in their heart of hearts, they know they can't do that. If they do it, it's like game over. Anything

can happen or Yeah. So certain people are wired that way. I mean, alcohol wasn't your drug of choice. It wasn't the entry for you to other things. And, you know, I can't speak for anybody other than my own experience. I know for myself, like I can't, that option is off the table for me, but God bless you, man. Well, and I think it's like, I look at why if I'm like, if I come home and I'm like stressed and I'm started drinking, like I've never really gotten to that. It's more like if I'm out, like i look at why if i'm like if i come home and i'm like stressed and i'm start drinking like i've never really gotten to that it's more like if i'm out like on a date or if i'm out like social like something like social which i mean but and i honestly don't do with that i mean i could probably count the amount of drinks i've had on my one hand in the last few years i mean it's just but i mean well i'm very open about it. Unless, like, you know, I was, you know, when I used to, one of my clients was a treatment center, and I would train the patients there.

It was a 12-step program, and, you know, I would never be open about that with them unless, I mean, if they asked me, I wouldn't lie. But I didn't want people getting the idea that they can do that, too, because my walk is my walk. Right. I mean, I just have built in different ways to manage my stress today than I did back then. And, you know, if it ever became an issue, then I would have to look at what I'm doing. But right now it's, you know, it works for the time being. So what are the ways in which you manage your stress outside of just working out? Well, I mean, I think, you know, spirituality has been big for me.

I mean, I'm a Christian. I don't jam it down people's throats because I didn't like it being jammed down my throat. And I didn't always believe in God because I was like, if God's real and God's about love, why am I incarcerated? Why am I addicted to drugs? Why this?

Why that? Why me? Why me, me, me? And I didn't believe any. But then I hit that point several years into my recovery where I thought just working out, making good money would be sustainably happy and you'd surely get humbled. And then one of my mentors, Todd Durkin, who's a trainer in San Diego, was like, Doug, you need some spirituality. Whatever works for you. And so one of my clients was a pastor and he's like,

you know, you're going to start coming to church with me. And it's a non-denominate. It's like, dude, I'm on the highway to hell. I'm going through hell for putting you through this workout and there's no way. And, you know, finally I hit that point where I needed that thing, that calling. And I went and called my client. I was like, I need to like come to church. And, and that was almost five years ago. But what was that moment? Like why then? Like what was going on?

I mean, I just had gotten, you know, nothing was work. Like nothing in my personal life was like working as far as like female relationships. And I was having a lot of doubts about myself, a lot of like, you know, resentments towards like the choices I had made and being a former convicted felon and all this stuff that I just couldn't deal with. And I, and then also like the part of me was like kept looking back and being like, man, like this guy had this crazy story that people tell me, like I couldn't have done it myself. And so everything, I came back from Disney World from a business retreat. And I remember just crying at the retreat because I was at a business, like a fitness retreat where we focus on personal business development.

And I couldn't wrap my head around why I was super fit, making good money and why I still wasn't completely happy. And then the spirituality nudge kept coming from some of my peers and again, and I just thought I should just, oh, I got nothing to lose, I'll try it. And like when I went to the church for the first time and like prayed with my client, the same monkey that came off my back with the pot, the opiates,

and then like the fitness part came off my back in a deeper level, like that I can't even explain. Like I called my mom like for the first time, like ever like and authentically apologized to her when I walked out of there. And I felt like there was something, there was a bigger reason for me to be alive. And at this point I'm a trainer. So I'm like, you can't make up that fitness saved my,

like I used fitness to help save my life in jail. And now I'm helping other people use fitness to save their lives. I was like, you can't just, I can't do that myself. And I slowly began to think, like, I might not be happy with the choices that I made, but God was. And for me, it works. And it's just, it really helped me. And then, you know, if you want to dive into that a little bit more, we can. But I think also having mentors in my life, people that have walked the walk a bit deeper.

I started getting involved in like mastermind programs and personal development stuff when I was like 22 years old. So who were your guys in that regard? I mean, like Todd Durkin, the guy in San Diego. And I started following like Gary Vee, who I actually got to meet Gary for the first time, like a few weeks ago, I was up at VaynerMedia. And I like- Oh, you were? Cool.

Yeah, for an interview on one of his podcasts. Not his, but his new lifestyle brand, 137 PM. Oh, yeah, 137. And I was wondering. I was asking the guy who was in. I was like, is Gary here? I was like, I love Gary. I was like, I just love.

And he's like, I don't know. He's always running around. And I literally go in the bathroom, washing my hands. And you know how Gary's got that distinct voice. And I'm like, Gary Vee. I'm like, oh, my God. And I go up, shake his hand. like go in the bathroom, washing my hands. And you know, Gary's got that distinct voice and I'm like, Gary Vee. I'm like, Oh my God. I go up, like shake his hand. We're in the bathroom. And he's like, I'm like, can we please get a picture together? And I was like, and then he started talking to me and, and it was really cool. Like that a guy like him who, you know, obviously I'm sure it gets bothered by tons of people.

It was super authentic when I saw him like in his, his realm. He's the, he's exactly,'s exactly who you want him to be when the camera's not on. Like my experience with him is super positive. And every time I've bumped into him or seen him, he could not be nicer or more kind or more generous. Like everything that he preaches, he practices in his own life.

Yeah, and it was really cool to see that with him because sometimes you meet some of these guys and they was really cool to see that, you know, with him because you get, sometimes you meet these guys, some of these guys and they're like totally different and totally turns you off. And then obviously following like guys like Tony Robbins and any other, I'm trying to think of who else. I mean, when I really first got into recovery, I started reading like fitness magazines too,

which helped me like figure out how to eat. And I mean, even though now I look back, I can't believe I read some of the stuff like muscle and fitness or Arnold Schwarzenegger's like book of bodybuilding was like the first book I read. Um, and, uh, but I just, I, and also my client, a lot of my clients were either like lawyers or they were like CPAs or financial planners and they were all like pretty successful. So I was always like picking their brain and be like, well, how did you do it? And I was always a listener and absorbed information. And I just always knew that I never had the answer.

And if I was the smartest person in the room, I needed to get into different rooms. And so I just, I don't know, I got really, I guess, lucky in the sense that I just jumped on these opportunities to meet people and network and just be like, hey, how can I help you? What can I do for you? Like, what can I, I mean, and just see where stuff leads.

Well, it sounds like you had a willingness to grow and to learn and to expand. And you sought out these people, whether virtually or in person, for guidance and counsel that you clearly lacked in your own life. And at the same time, you invested in a spiritual program for yourself. And I would imagine you probably look back on that jail experience now and everything that you endured to get to where you are at this point with a level of gratitude that you didn't expect to have, right? Well, yeah. I mean, if you would ask me now, if I would have cried when I left jail, there was been like cried, like maybe in joy. But I was cried of like,

I was nervous because I didn't want to leave. And it was, I needed that experience. I needed that. And I don't know where my spiritual awakening actually was. I mean, I know I've had probably had several in my life, but being in jail was definitely the big one because all the masks I'd been putting on myself came off at once. And it was like, okay, Doug, here you are. You're a fat ass. You've gotten yourself in jail.

You can't do what you want, see what you want, go where you want or talk to who you want. What are you going to do about it? What was your greatest aspiration for your life when you were driving around scamming French fries and delivering pizzas and just getting stoned? I really wanted to be either in the FBI or be a sports broadcaster for ESPN. But those were two of my things. And, you know, I went from also, I wanted to obviously be a lawyer and accountant, but, and then, I mean, I narrowed it down and I wanted to be in the FBI and, or be on ESPN. And obviously

when I got arrested, I was like, well, there goes the FBI. No FBI, unless you're going to be some kind of informant, you know, off the books. Yeah Yeah, actually I didn't want to be doing that either. It's funny though, because 10 years might seem like a long time, but it's actually not that long. And when I think of you kind of driving around with one headlight, just a disaster, to being on the Today Show and going to VaynerMedia, you've got a lot of press for the stuff that you've done. Like you're kind of a name who's out there,

who's learned how to own your story and tell it in a certain way. And, you know, clearly for the sake of inspiring other people and motivating other people to take better control of their lives. I mean, you know, in a certain respect, you're becoming that lighthouse and that beacon of light for people that you sought out in your own time of need. Yeah, I mean, I'm just trying to help people.

I mean, I don't have any other mission behind it. And it's like, I just really wanna use my story. Just, I mean, there's bits and pieces that can relate, whether it's how you struggle with mental illness and how you cope with that, or whether it's, you know, a mom listening, who's got a kid right now who just started smoking pot and like, well, what do I do? Because, you know, my kids tell me pot's legal here. And, you know, and I see him like not doing his homework for three weeks in a row. Or if it's just somebody who like, doesn't think they can

ever get started in taking care of their body. Like I was that person, like I was the guy, you know, I mean, it wasn't yo-yo-yo dieting, but I would like eat like once a day and it would be like a whole cheese steak, pizza and fries. And I thought that was like, cool. Like that was like delicious. And then like, as I look back now and as I've experienced with almost every, you know, diet, I mean, I hate, I don't really like that word, but lifestyle, you can just, I'm like, wow, well,

it's just funny how cheese steaks and pizza aren't part of any of these other equations when it comes to how to eat. Yeah. What's interesting about your story is it, it's like the intersection of so many things that are like gone off the rails in our society from our obsession with success and comfort and luxury. Like, oh, you know, a good life is a life of, you know, getting a good paycheck and having a nice car and having a job that people approve of.

and having a job that people approve of, you kind of playing that out on some level and seeing like, I'm not happy with that, to this mental health crisis that we find ourselves in where more people are depressed or suffering from some form of anxiety or suicidal ideation or PTSD or what have you. I mean, it's flagrant and everywhere we look to the opioid crisis to, you know, all of these problems that we're kind of suffering from culturally,

you're like this, you know, test tube case study, you know, who kind of came out the other side, but can speak to all of these issues as somebody who's endured them. Yeah. I mean, and it's, it's been tough. I mean, to say that it's been an easy road, I mean, the amount of energy it's probably taken just to kind of maintain all this, it's been, it's hard because, you know, I'm so used to, you know, having to always watch my back. I mean, being on like probation for five years, I mean, it was definitely tough and not, not, you know, not failing drug tests and having the felony come off my record was great. But having that on your shoulders, it correlates in having for you to watch your back in other areas of your life.

But if I can just be a beacon or an inspiration of hope to people that hear my story and know that like, I'm just here to help people. It's not like I'm trying to sell any programs. I mean, I'm just, I'm honestly like float, like floating my own, paying for all the stuff myself to travel, just to help other people. Like, that's what it's about for me. I mean, it's just about if I can,

the emails I get or the texts I get from people who see this or listen to that, and I'm like, oh my gosh gosh, I needed this right now. I needed to hear your story. And to me, that's what life's about, paying it forward. What do you think is the difference between your experience and the experience of the untold thousands of other oxy addicts out there who get pulled over and arrested and go to jail and never change their ways. Like, why were you able to, you know, grab onto this lifeline and make these changes

to become this person who's like writing books and doing podcasts and, you know, like it's an amazing trajectory. Yeah, I mean, other than right place, right time. I mean, and as I look back, I mean, other than right place, right time. I mean, and I, as I, as I look back, I mean, one of my biggest motivators for believing in God wasn't like seeing this, this person, right. It was just looking at where my life was to where it is now and being like, I can't do that myself. And if I could, the moment I continue to, the moment I try to say that I did

this myself is the moment I lose. Cause lose because then ego is the enemy, right? Ego is one. And I think it also came back to taking responsibility. I mean, like I said, my cellmate being really point blank to me doesn't resonate in the way it does for – might not resonate with many. But he said to me, he's like, you can be a man or you can be a bitch. That's what he said to me when I got in there. And he's like, you can be a man and you can be a bitch. That's what he said to me when I got in, when I got in there. And he's like, you can be a man and take responsibility for yourself. Know that you got yourself here, no matter who you want to blame, no matter who did

this, you got yourself here and it's up to you to change. Or you can be a bitch and go cry in the corner, sulk in your sorrows and blame everybody else like most people will do. And I just kind of took that and I don't, I don't want to say ran with it, but I just kind of did it. And I just kind of took that and I don't want to say ran with it, but I just kind of did it. And I was just on such a mission to never give up and to know that life was going to be better for me if I did these things. And if I didn't do these things, I was going to fail. I had no shot at all. But I knew if I did these things, I had a shot. And slowly, it was like things started to fall into place.

these things, I had a shot and slowly, you know, it was like things started to fall into place. And I mean, I think I just, I got lucky in a way, but I think I was just so determined, rich to change. I really was. Well, divine providence placed this guy, Eric, in your path, you know, and I would imagine you look at that with a sense of not just gratitude, but in a way that instills your life with faith. Because you couldn't have predicted that. That changes the course. I mean, had that guy not been there and it had just been a bunch of dudes

who couldn't care less about you, where would your life be right now? I mean, you couldn't even imagine, right? I mean, I wouldn't have been working out for sure. Yeah, so what is that if not... I choose, I guess I could say, I choose to look at that as an act of God. It doesn't have to be, the word God can be replaced for whatever spiritual turn of phrase feels comfortable for you.

But there's so much beauty in poetry and elegance in that. Yeah. I mean, I think it just, no matter what spirituality you believe in, if you believe in it or not, to me, it was just his willingness to help me with no strings attached, unconditional love, right? And then paying it forward. And then just, he was like an angel to me at that time when I needed him and him not letting me give up. Cause he could have easily been like, dude, you're a pain in my ass. You bitch way too much. You whine, like get away from me. Like, why, why am I going to waste my time? But he didn't get, he didn't let me quit. And even when I got out of jail, I mean, he didn't have to write me back, but he did. And, you know, he, once I was

trying to bail out in a way, he was like, what the heck did I teach you when you were incarcerated? Like, go get yourself a pair of sweatpants and stop being a wuss. And, and so like that, that kind of like just that unconditional love, I didn't want to let that guy down because I was like, I just, I don't know why, but I was like, if I let this guy down, like my life's over because like I have this golden opportunity. And when the felony came off, I just, you know, everyone was like, I remember people in court crying and I'm just standing there. I didn't really understand what had really happened. I mean, it's just so, it was so euphoric, but I mean, it was cool to be able to go back

to court to see the judge and him look at me in a positive way and see the judicial system, which many of us have come to hate when it comes to the way that people treat drug offenders to actually do some good for once. Yeah, this is something that John McAvoy talks about a lot, the power of, the redemptive power of sport. And he's essentially devoted a huge part of his life to trying to reform the prison system, to instill it with sports-related activities and programs to rehabilitate the

population. And you're a similar example of that rehabilitative power of taking control of your fitness. Yeah. I mean, it's just so important for the mind. I mean, just to feel better about yourself and having that dedication and knowing, okay, I got to do this activity at 7 a.m., whether it's working out or going outside and playing basketball. And then like the, you know,

the endorphin rush that you get and just being able to like get uncomfortable or get comfortable being uncomfortable, which in recovery, it's uncomfortable a lot of times, right? You lose a job, you get a divorce, you get somebody who chastises you on social media, whatever it is that makes you uncomfortable, you got to deal with it in a healthy way, right? Well, the first part of getting sober is the experience of being about as uncomfortable as you can possibly be, like weathering a detox. And what you learn from that is that you can't short circuit it.

Like I'm sure if they'd allowed you to get the Suboxone in there, it might've been a little bit easier, but if it was too easy, maybe you would've gone back. You know what I mean? There's beauty in that suffering because with that comes the lesson. And if you try to short circuit that, you're missing out on what is trying to be taught to you. And I think when you can appreciate the difficulty of weathering an experience like that, it allows you to see that those experiences are necessary in order to grow.

And ultimately, they provide the foundation for you to be a happier, more purposeful person. Yeah. I mean, that's exactly kind of what it did for me is getting into recovery, starting to work out got me uncomfortable, but it also led me into meeting other people along the way and And then meeting people that challenged me to write books. I mean, I didn't want to write my first book, but people were like, you got this crazy story. Why don't you write a book? And I was like, I barely graduated high school. What do I know about writing? And then I went to write it and then I wrote it. And then people were like, oh, this is pretty good. And I'm like, oh, is it? And then that led me to meet some other people and challenge myself more than be inspired to

write this next book, my newest book that comes out in March, to really help other people. And I've just met so many cool people and just following people like, you know, along the way that just inspire the heck out of me with their recovery. And, you know, reading your book was awesome. And just, I was, there was a lot of things I related to there with, you know, what happened to you in school.

And then, you know, obviously with getting sober and then the role fitness played in your life. And to be honest, it was funny. I deliver pizza too in Maryland. Well, you honest, it was funny. I delivered pizza too in Maryland. Well, you know what's funny? As you were doing that, I was reading about you doing the Epic Five and that point where you like blacked out

and you didn't remember, you know, and you didn't know if you were gonna go on. And then like Jason was like, come on, we're running this marathon. I was hiking up. I've never really hiked a mountain before. And the other day I was in Arizona with my buddy. Was it Thursday or Friday?

We were hiking and I was like, I was smoked. And then I just, in my mind, I was just like thinking about you and the Epic Five. I'm like, dude, I can't, I'm a complete wuss right now compared to what Rich was doing. Got you up the hill. Yeah, got me up the hill. Awesome.

So tell me about the new book, The Heart of Recovery. So this comes out in March, and these are like sort of case studies of interviewing a bunch of people who've turned their lives around in sobriety. Yeah. So, I mean, being somebody who's been in recovery for a little over a decade, I just had gotten to the point where I was like, people were like, well, how'd you get sober without going to AA? And I was like, well, I did this, this, and that. I knew that I had a problem with the drugs I was abusing. I couldn't do it.

I knew I believed in God. I had made amends. I don't have any anger towards my family, but I had communicated with them. I have people I call when I'm in trouble, like sponsors, if you will. And, and so I just knew I was doing very similar things. And I just saw the epidemic, obviously not getting any better and realizing that people getting into recovery, they're not healthy. Like there's people that are still smoking tons of cigarettes or eating unhealthy. And I'm like, who, how can I correlate

a message to help people get better? So I decided that I wanted to write like an interview style book where I interviewed like, you know, 50 of some of the most inspiring people that are in recovery about how they did it, like what their workout routines were like, what kind of people they hung out with, what their view on spirituality was, and almost like, you know, what they do on a day-to-day basis to thrive in recovery. And I wanted a vast, diverse group of people, from people who are celebrities to people who aren't, to people just to show that whether

you're worth $50 million or $50, recovery and addiction doesn't discriminate. You still got to work a program, but just work what works for you. And while there's a lot of people in there that are 12-step people, and it's definitely worked for them, there's people in there that aren't, and it's worked for them. And I just think we kind of need to stop putting, thinking it's like a one size fits all approach because, you know, I think if it was, I think we wouldn't be where we're at today. I mean, there's so many other issues that go into it. Yeah. Well, I mean, we're, you know, the fact that the two of us are sitting here, you know, who both have leveraged fitness for personal growth and in our own unique ways, we've, we've also had different paths in sobriety, you know, and like,

I, I, I have no judgment on how you got sober and stay sober. My path's a little bit different, but I think it does speak to the fact that like, yeah, I mean, I know it works for me, but that doesn't mean it's a one size fits all thing. And I appreciate the fact that you would like, you know, kind of create a catalog of all these different perspectives for, you know, somebody to be able to turn to and find, you know, of all of these, here's the one that I can identify with. So maybe I'll model my path after this person. Yeah. And there's different stories in there. There's some names people recognize, some don't. But I think it's like,

I really wanted to include a lot of names that people don't recognize because those are the names that don't really get talked about. And just different people's perspectives on their workout routines to their views on spiritual, they're all different. All the personalities are different

just so people can pick and choose what they want to nibble on. And it's laid out so people can just read a story at a time. There's a table of contents that helps people kind of journal through. I mean, there's some really funny stories in there. And there's some, you read about some people that you're like, man, how the heck did they get through it?

And I met some amazing people along the way and, you know, just connected with some really cool people that I still have relationships with now, just because I was like, it was, it was weird, like reaching out to the publicist and man, I had no experience of doing it all. Like none. They're like, who are you? And I'm like, I'm Doug Bobst. I'm a trainer in Maryland. They're like, why are you calling? You know? And I'm like, I'm like, I'm writing a book and they're like, well, who's your publisher? And I'm like, ah, I mean, I just wanted to write the book. And I was just like, I just, I had to seriously hustle like crazy. Cause

I, to, to get this done because I, nobody knew me. I, and I didn't have like a, I mean, I, some self-publishing, I didn't have a big publisher, but I just knew that I wanted to write the book and I wanted to help people. And I think there's a lot of people that just respected that I was nobody and like, wow, you're doing this on like your own time. I'm not affiliated with it. I'm not working for a treatment center. I don't, you know, I just, this is just me. I'm just paging through the book.

Yeah. There's a lot of people in here that I know. Not everyone. I mean, some of these names I don't know, but there's like, some of it is like, oh, this is a little bit of a who's who of LAAA. I was like, oh, Amy must have turned you on to that person. Well, I mean, there were certain people, I just, they were like, how can I help you? I was like, and I would be honest. I'd be like, I mean, if you, I was like, if you know anybody that would be able to open, they would do it.

That's not going to like ask me a million questions. It's like, you know, that's going to be open to the 11th tradition, which I know is big in LA. I said, just turn me to them. And I was thankful that a lot of people helped me out. And I also just was persistent. Because I knew I had new people who were busy. And once I got somebody on the phone, it was a little easier because I could hear my voice.

I would share my story. And it wasn't like I was just that other person reaching out to them for something. It was like, okay, it seems legitimate what you want to do. Because at first, I wanted to get as many celebrities as I could. to him for something. It was like, okay, like it seems legitimate what you want to do because, you know, at first I wanted to get as many celebrities as I could. And then I realized like, Hey, it's really, really hard me being nobody. And B like, I wanted to get like a lot of stories in there too, that nobody knows because those are the stories that people can relate. Like everyday people can, they're not going to be able to relate to people who can

afford to put themselves to rehab a bunch or, or, I mean, they can in some ways, but it's the everyday person that's working two jobs and has kids that can't get through it. What did you learn from this experience? What surprised you? I mean, I just think that, Rich, there's a lot of different themes in there. There's a lot of different paths, but there's a lot of commonalities too. I mean, the people in there for the most part, I mean, I would say, I mean, I would like, I mean, I was probably, I'd say all, they all like,

you know, the relationships change for the better when they got into recovery. They hang out with people that bring the best out in them. They have a workout routine that works for them, or if they're not currently working out because of injury or something, they know the importance of it. They value it. And they all kind of know what they need to do every day to kind of stay on top of things. And they were all really interesting to talk to. There were so many people just willing to do it

because they wanted to be part of it. And I also like how there's a lot of politics, I guess, in recovery too. And there's a lot of gatekeepers and certain things, which I wasn't aware of because I'm in the fitness industry. So that kind of was eye-opening to me and I didn't know. And it was hard to fight through, but I guess I realized it's just what it is. So, I mean, that was a big learning experience was like, just because you're calling a manager or a publicist of somebody doesn't mean they're going to give you an interview. It's really hard, you know?

And a lot of people want these interviews. And I just, like, I didn't know because I'd never been through this process before. All I knew was fitness. I mean, I didn't know. I mean, but by the grace of God, I was able to get some of the interviews I got in there just by the help of other people.

And, you know, some I got on my own through publicists, but it was tough. Well, one thing I'm pretty sure nobody said to you is this. When I got sober, I thought that my life would be over and that it would just be boring from then on out. And they were right. It was boring. Right. It's like, no, your life gets better. It does. You think that you're going to be resigned to this milquetoast existence and there'll be no more high highs and low lows. I have been privy to witnessing lives so dramatically changed as a result of getting sober that it's almost beyond what is believable. Yeah, I mean, lives definitely change for the better. And for people, I mean, there's a lot of people, like we were saying earlier, that they're like, my life's not going to be any better. But it does get better.

I mean, you are able to hold a job. Your relationships do improve. The way you feel about yourself is better because you don't have that like weight weighing you down anymore. And, and I think, you know, you are able to do some work on yourself. Like getting into recovery is like a huge step in working on yourself, which a lot of people don't, don't really do anymore, whether they're in recovery or not. And I think, you know, just showing that you actually love yourself enough to take a chance, put the drugs down, put the alcohol down, and try to work something that will help you lead you in the right direction. With the clients that you work with,

what's the difference between those that actually make strides and those that don't? I think the ones that really make the strides are the ones that like are just so like Persistent and dedicated and they put it in their schedule as like an appointment Like it's like they're it's like part of their day. Like they know it's like a doctor's appointment They're not missing a workout and they're just they're just wired that way they're driven and they have seen I mean, I think a lot of it it just like in recovery recovery, like when you're training somebody, like when you start to see some success, it snowballs and helps you really keep your eye on the prize and keep going towards the bigger goals. And, you know, the ones, um, they just, they don't give up. It's a sheer determination and that will to, to win and just, you know,

follow instructions. And if I say, Hey, you know, don't eat this or lay off this, or, Hey, you got to exercise three to four times a week. The people that do that, it works like, and the people that don't, it doesn't. I mean, it's just, come on. It's gotta be, there's gotta be a better answer than that. No, there's, I mean, yeah, no, I know, you know, and you know what I mean? Like people always, they want like a magic pill or this. I'm like, listen, like if you do what I say and you work out three to five times a week and you keep your calories in check, I mean, you will lose weight.

Like that's just, I mean, unless you have some, you know, metabolic disease or whatever, something that's uncontrollable, but for the most general population, you will. I mean. All right. So I'm at home in my mom's basement. I'm listening to this podcast.

I'm smoking too many blunts. I'm hitting Wendy's a little too often. I know I need to work out a little bit. Maybe I should lay off the weed and maybe not go out with my buddies so much. But I don't know, man. It's not that bad. How do you connect with that person?

Like, how do you jumpstart somebody who's kind of in that place where, yeah, it's not going in a good direction, but they're not, like, going to jail. Right. You know, they're not getting pulled over with one headlight. It hasn't hit a flashpoint in that way. But this is a person who, you know, could benefit from making a few lifestyle changes. I mean, I think it's just asking them some questions, asking them, are you happy with the way your life is? And like, honestly, are you happy?

And then some people will be like, yeah, I'm happy. I'm like, so you're telling me sitting in your mom's basement when you're 35 years old, smoking blunts, listening to Tupac and eating cheeseburgers makes you happy every day, which there's nothing wrong with Tupac, by the way. And then you just start to unlayer things, right? And then you're able to ask him some tough questions.

And again, you got to build a relationship with some of these people that you talk to. I mean, you can't just walk in and say stuff like that, but you just kind of come at them from a loving place and just show that you're authentically care and be like, well, you know, what if I told you that if we went for a 20 minute walk, that you might feel a little bit better.

And then you just kind of like, they might be like, nah, I'm not going to feel it. I'm like, why don't you just try it? Like, what do you have to lose, right? And they try it and nine times out of 10, they're going to feel better, right? As long as they, you know, don't have any injuries or anything.

And then you just kind of build steps off of that. I mean, I think it's just like, you know, the 12 steps, right? You just accomplish one thing and then you just keep going and keep layering things on top of it. Momentum is so important. Yeah, and I think a lot of times

these kids or people who are, however old they are, that they just don't know any other way. So like they've, they've been taught that whatever way they're doing is the only way, whether it's their friends around them, whether it's what they listen to or what they watch and just being able to show them there is another path and whatever that path looks like. I mean, it's got to come out of like love and care. You don't want to, I would never go in and just start talking down to a kid, but I would definitely ask him some tough questions because it allows him to have some open dialogue to be able to answer in an honest way, hopefully on how he feels about his life. And, you know, because you get to start to get into, to unwrap, peel the onion back a little

bit. And then sure enough enough this kid tells you oh man i'm really not happy like you know tell you the truth like i broke up with my girlfriend a year ago and i haven't been able to you know get over it and i've been in my parents basement because i lost my job six months ago and i can't afford to eat healthy so i eat wendy's and i smoke weed because i don't want to kill myself i, you hear some deep stuff sometimes when you peel the onion back. It's not always what it appears. And that's why I say go in and you just ask some tough questions. And hopefully if they're at a spot where they're willing to answer, you can really get some work done. Yeah, lead with empathy. And it's, you know, you coming from where you've come from, you can create that bridge probably a lot easier than

most people. Well, yeah, being able to relate to them. I mean, relatability is the spice of life, I think, on many things, if not all. And just being able to be like, listen, like, I mean, and I also would just say, like, listen, if you think, I don't know everything, but I know some things and I know I get where you're at.

I know I was the kid who was suicidal, was hopeless, was slinging drugs, you know, left and right and eating, you know, fast food all the time. And I had no hope, but if it wasn't for somebody helping me, you know, find a new path, I wouldn't be where I am today. And I'm just trying to do the same for you. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's the person who's willing to help, but it's also timing. Yeah. That person showed up at a moment where you actually had the willingness to, you know, take the lifeline. Had you been, had that guy come across your path a year earlier, you might've told him to fuck off. You know what I mean? So it's, again, it goes back to that, that kind of divine providence. Yeah. And timing is everything. And so I just, you know, and I think that my cellmate, he didn't come at me like, you need to change.

He was just like, come on. Like, he just kept nudging me, kept like tapping me on the shoulder. Kind of like my client who wanted me to come to church. He didn't like, wasn't like, you need to come to church. You're going to hell. He was like, you know, if you want to come to church, you're more than welcome. We can go to Chipotle afterwards. I was like, ah, I don't want to eat Chipotle.

And then he just kept being like, are you sure? Are you sure? And then finally, when I was ready, he hadn't pushed me away. He just gently tapped me that I was able to be like, all right, well, let me try this thing out. And that's the same way with a lot of these kids. Like I don't lead with, you better stop doing drugs.

I lead with questions and I lead with, I don't have all the answers and I'm not here to tell you what to do. I'm not your father, but this is my story. And I was your age not long ago. And I'm here to tell you there's a better way out if you're willing to meet me there. What do you think is the thing that holds most people back?

I mean, I think there's many, but I think one is just, they just don't believe in themselves. And when stuff gets hard, they quit because life does get hard. I mean, for me to say life gets easy when you stop using drugs is, it just couldn't be far from the truth. But, you know, they just don't see a better way. And when they want to get better and then, you know,

the slightest thing will happen and they'll be like, oh, fuck this. Like my life's not better. Like I've stopped using drugs only two days, you know? And they want everything to happen like right now. And then, you know, also just like their environment. I think kids, like I was saying earlier, part of the problem is the pot, right?

I think in a lot of cases, right? In many, but also the, the like environment of like, that's what all you do is ride around and smoke pot with your friends is like a huge problem because then like you're leaving your community, right? We've talked about the importance of community and then you're all of a sudden being forced to leave that community and go somewhere else where kids now being in the age of social media, where we've, you know, the ability of having face-to-face interaction is slowly fading it's hard for them to meet new friends so it's better than their

minds to go back and hang out with the same friends and try to maybe not smoke pot but of course we know that if you do that long enough now the odds are against you that you'll stay away from it. And it's hard. It's hard to be 15, 16, 17 years old. You know, and when you create community around something like smoking pot, it's tough to break out of that. You know, your social life is everything. And, you know, in a social media culture

where everyone's being judged, you know judged behind their back and to their face through Instagram and Snapchat and the like, the levels of anxiety and stress that people in this age bracket are experiencing I think are unprecedented. And I think that's contributing to more and more checking out and drug use. I mean, yeah. I mean, I watched Simon Sinek was on Tom Bilyeu's impact theory or health theory years ago talking about giving the kid a cell phone at a young age was like, I mean, I think he compared it to alcohol or something, but he was just saying how kids can, if they're depressed, they can just check out and go to their phones, right? And I think we're seeing that a lot now with kids on Snapchat and Instagram.

And in a matter of seconds, kids can get jealous, envious, competitive, comparative, however you want to call it by just pulling out their phone, looking on Instagram. So can adults. Yeah, well, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I know, yeah. But, you know, and so you can just see like,

wow, that person has a better body or man, that person just bought a jet or a new car. Or all those people that I thought were my friends are now at a party that I'm not at and they told me they were doing something else. Right. Yeah, and that's hard for kids. And that's like a way of like, I mean, one of my clients is telling me like a way of bullying now is for that to happen. That very reason. They put a picture up of all these kids, and they don't tag the one person who wasn't there. In the picture, the kid sees it, and they're like, what the heck? It's for everybody to see. As much as technology is great, I think it can be an awesome tool.

I think so many people, like you said, we use it as ways to compete with people. an awesome tool. I think so many people, like you said, we use it as ways to compete with people. But I think there's, I mean, there's obviously silver lining in everything. And that's why there's people like you and others that have a strong influence and are able to be authentic and genuine and show how you can use social media in a positive way and not in a way to tear other people down and bully people or be a snake oil salesman, which there's a lot of that too, right? Yeah, and it's hard to divine fact from fiction and kind of find your true north through all of this.

And when you're young and impressionable and insecure and afraid, unquestionable and insecure and afraid. You know, you're cannon fodder for, you know, being manipulated and, you know, all the sort of darker sides of what social media is presenting right now. Yeah. And you just don't know where it's going to head and you don't know what angle it's going to take. But I mean, it's not, I don't think it's going away. So how can kids and adults and everybody else affected by it, you know, manage it. And I think it's the tools because, I mean, for people to say, they're never going to check Instagram again or whatever. I mean, they're, they're not telling the truth. I mean, at least I'm not, I mean, you know, it's part of our, it's part of our lives. And I think if you're a young person,

you know, the answer isn't no cell phone. This is the vocabulary of how this generation communicates. You can't deprive them of becoming proficient in that language. But there has to be boundaries and there has to be analog experiences to counterbalance that, Experience is to counterbalance that, to craft a healthy sense of self-esteem and purpose that isn't reliant upon the reactionary proclivities of some bunch of teenagers who are all swirling with crazy hormones that are making them do things that when they're 30, they'll regret. Yeah, and I just think it goes back to how are we dealing with the stressors and the thing that bug us out. I mean, if we get bugged out on Instagram or Facebook by something somebody says, something we saw, I mean, how can we manage that stress in a healthy way?

And it's not drugs and alcohol. It's surrounding yourself with great people. It's having mentors, people you can lean on, and working out and eating smart. And if you're kids, making sure that you're hanging out with people that have common futures and not common pasts. That was one of the hard things for me was, I was like, man, I've known X, Y, and Z people for so long. But it's like, do you want to be somebody who when you're 50 years old, looking back at your life, being like, man, I wish I would have changed my friends and taken more risks on myself. And here I am sitting at a bar by myself,

just drinking because I didn't really work on myself or change my environment. Or do you want to be that same person at 50 being like, man, I'm so thankful that I did the hard thing. I sucked it up and stayed in on weekends for a little while until I built a new network of friends. And now here I am with a family, and we're happy. And it's a lot easier said than done. But I mean, those are definitely two different paths. They now love it later. You know what I mean?

But that's tough in an instant gratification culture where everyone wants what they want immediately. It doesn't work that way. We all want it now. And it's like we, even, and it makes my job, my profession, people we want, I mean, I'm seeing it a lot with people, with the calories, people are like, well, how many calories did I burn? And I'm like, well, there's a lot more that goes into exercise than just the calories.

I mean, if you're strength training, it's, you know, the benefits will be a lot longer endured than if there's just that single workout for calories. But it's because we have the access on our watches to see instantly what our heart rate is, how many calories we burn, text messages. And so we've almost correlated that in other areas of our lives too. That's crazy, man. What are your buddies doing now, your ride-or-die buddies from back in the day? I think some have cleaned up and some haven't.

But you've put your, it's not like they're still your inner circle. No, not at all. But you stayed in the same community. Yeah, I mean, but I just had to shut it off. And there was a while for a while I would hang out with them. And I just, it got to a point where I just, I didn't have as much in common. Like I was about like eating like, you know,

like boiled chicken and broccoli for dinner or something, just making that, something like that, right? And they were, you know, getting ready to go to the bar. I wanted to go to not, I wanted to be able to go for, you know, a run. And, you know, so it just like, I didn't have, I didn't align with them. Like before it was like, we all just did drugs together,

where now it came to the point where I was on a healthier lifestyle, and I wanted to help not only myself, but be able to help other people. I just had to start aligning myself with people that wanted that, and I started just reading. I started just reading books. The one guy I know who's been on here, whose books I loved is John Gordon. I just started reading like, yeah, he's the dude, he's the man. He's got lots of books. He turns those things out. Like, I don't know how he does that, man.

But his, I mean, they're so small, I mean, but his books, like they're simple, they're're easy to read. So I started reading, like, you know, stuff like that. And I started reading Gary Vee, we talked about. And I just, you start to learn about either the type of person that you want to be or the type of people you should be hanging out with or how to treat people. And it was all kind of different than the drug culture I had immersed myself into, which was, you know, a bit more challenging for myself. a bit more challenging for myself. And I just, I really, I commemorate like the people that did all that stuff because they wrote those books because personal development for me has been huge.

And just being able to meet people and just like ask the right questions. And it's just been a huge, huge help for me with everything in my life. What's the main thing that you want people to take away from your story? I mean, the main thing I tell people is to always focus on how far they've come and not how far they have to go. Because there was a lot of times where I wanted to quit.

And I just remembered what Eric did for me in jail, the things he said to me. And I also remembered all the times I'd failed as a kid, all the times I was unhappy and stressed and depressed. And I didn't want to ever feel like that again. And I knew that if I went the other way, like if I went back to doing drugs or eating pizzas and cheesesteaks and all that stuff, that there was a good possibility I was going to end up that same kid again.

And I just had to keep telling myself that. And sure enough, the more I kept telling myself that, the more it was like second nature to just know that, like, okay, this is right, this is wrong, this is good, this is bad. Like, you know, go to this side of the street and don't go on the other side. And it just, and because a lot of people, they want the results quick

and it's not going to happen quick. Like it took me, I mean, I've been going at it 10 years and I still feel like I don't have it all figured out. You know, I'm only 31 years old and it took a while for me to get this fitness thing together where I was able to work out. And, you know, it didn't just, it wasn't just like yesterday.

I just all of a sudden like, I think I'm going to like start going on podcasts and write books. It was like, I didn't even want to do it. Like I didn't want to, I didn't want to write another book, but you know, I felt like I just, there was something deeper calling me and it was my passion for recovery, but not like so, so much in the, like talking about like sobriety. It was more like, okay, like it was more like, what kind of tools and tips can I have for when you do get in a recovery on how you can like really thrive,

like how you can be healthy again. And that's why I just, I really wanted to, to just be more open about sharing my message of hope and encouragement to just help people, you know, focus on being better versions of themselves. 31, three books on your belt. I got sober when you said 31. I was like, shit, man, I got sober at 31.

You got like 10 years under your belt. That's amazing, man. You have a bright future ahead of you, my friend. I mean, I appreciate the kind words and it's been an honor to talk to you. I mean, I've been following you for quite some time and just to be able to kind of just sit in the room, you know, with my name on the wall there,

it's just, it's really humbling. Well, it's cool. It's been an honor to talk to you. Your story is amazing. The trajectory is incredible. It's super inspiring. And it's just proof positive of what can happen when you get sober and you take stock of your life and responsibility for your actions and your decisions and you begin to pay it forward and you never thought that you wanted or knew that you wanted

to be this beacon of hope and light for so many people out there. It's really a beautiful thing. Yeah, I appreciate that. I mean, as long as I'm staying true to who I am and genuine and that's all that counts and just being able to really be there for people and never forget genuine and that's all that counts, you know, and just being able to really be there for people and never forget where I came from. And I mean, that was always the big thing is I just, I mean, I have friends that reach out to me and they're like, you're like a celebrity. And I'm like, no, I'm not. I'm just a person who I'm just trying to help people. I'm not a celebrity. I'm not anybody who's better than anybody else. I'm not smart. I just, I just want to really just help people and, you know, share my story with as many people as possible.

Because this is a huge problem. I mean, more people are dying from drug overdoses now than car accidents. I mean, it's not like it's a small thing anymore. So with that in mind, let's close it down with some words of wisdom or some hope for the person out there who's listening to this who is stuck and in that cycle where they feel like they just can't quit? I mean, I really would just say, just not to give up on yourself and to just know that life will be better on the other side of the tunnel.

And if you're standing in that dark tunnel right now and you can't see light, I think it's just important to have faith and just know that faith is being able to see what's not seen and that light will be at the end of the tunnel. If you keep putting one foot in front of the other, like one day at a time, one week at a time, one month at a time, because you know what's behind you. You know if you turn around and go back to that dark place, you know where that gets you. So why not try something different and just to know that you're not a fuck up

you just fucked up I think a lot of people they label themselves a fuck up I hear it a lot you made mistakes it's okay we all make mistakes what did you learn from it and I think it's important for people to understand

that they're not a failure to not identify with your actions because you did these things, it doesn't necessarily mean that's who you are. And I think that's a big one because you do, you think, how could I be this person who's constantly making these terrible choices? I must be an awful human being.

And it's like, no, you're a drug addict or you're an alcoholic. These are not who you really are. Right. You're suffering from a condition that is compelling you to make choices that are not in your best interest and that are alienating everyone around you. But the good news is we can fix that. Right.

So I love what you said, and I would just supplement it with these words, which is if you feel like you're in a hopeless state, that there is always hope. And you need not ever drink or use again if you don't want to. There is help available to you. And faith is super important, as you mentioned, but also works are as well. You need to raise your hand and ask for help. You need to get over whatever fear you have around asking for help. Addicts and alcoholics, they want to just solve the problem by themselves. I know as somebody who unsuccessfully attempted that, it's hard to do it alone. Most people can't. I couldn't. It's okay to ask for help. And I think you'll find if you extend yourself in that regard, there are a lot

of people around who'd be more than willing to help you. And there is a path forward. And as somebody who's been a part of this community for a long time, I've seen lives change in such dramatic fashion. It would just blow your mind. I mean, the stuff of cinema, it's crazy. And the life, as Luis said earlier, the life that you didn't even think that you wanted is out there waiting for you. It's not the end. It is the beginning. Couldn't have said it better myself.

So thanks for spending some time with me today, man. Thanks for having me, man. I care about these issues a lot, and I really love how you carry the message, man. So much love and success to you. The new book is called The Heart of Recovery. It's out March 15th. March 12th. March 12th. Come to bookstore soon, man. You can find that on Amazon. And what else, man? Are you doing any like public events where people can come and see you or shake your hand or? No, I mean, I really don't have much, much plan. Just going back to Maryland. Just going back to Maryland that I don to Maryland. Doing like a book tour or anything like that?

I wanted to, and I talked to my publicist, and he was just like, I mean, we kind of want it, but I mean, again, people are buying books online now, and I just, like, I'm not going to retire being an author. I didn't, like, this book isn't going to make me a ton of money. I don't expect it to. I mean, if it does, great, but it's just part of my message, I guess. You know, I still am a trainer. I love training people. And just hopefully the book, it just supplements that to help people

know that there's tools out there and there's different ways. You might not have it all figured out, but there's a lot of people that have tried and have had some success with it. And I just hope that they pick it up. Cool. If people want to connect with you, DougBopes.com and at Doug underscore Bopes on Instagram. Those are the best places. Yeah. All right, dude. Any last words? How do you feel? I feel great, man. This has been an honor. This has been, this is definitely worth the east to west coast trip. All right, cool. Are you going to go see Amy? I saw her yesterday. Oh, you did? Yeah. We walked around Santa Monica and then I was like, you should let me train you in person. She's like, no. Only on Skype? So I went to her place and I saw her little home gym

and put together a pull-up bar for her that she doesn't think she'll ever be able to use, but I said, we'll get there. All right. Good deal, man. All right. Well, come back and talk to me again sometime. Yeah, man. Absolutely. All right.

Peace. Lance. Mana. Mana, I say. Sustenance from the gods. That was great, right? Hope you guys enjoyed that. Please let Doug know what you thought of today's conversation. You can hit him up on Twitter at DougBobstFitness.

And you can follow him on Instagram at Doug underscore Bobst. And don't forget to pick up his latest book, The Heart of Recovery, Real People, Real Lives, Real Success Stories. And as always, links to everything are in the show notes, including Doug's other books to elevate your experience beyond the earbuds, my friends. So check that out on the episode page at richroll.com. If you are struggling with your diet, maybe you're in that place that Doug was in when he was eating calzones and pizza every day and fast food and the like. And you really want to finally figure this out and master your plate and get on top of your nutrition, but you feel like, I don't know how to cook. I don't really like cookbooks. I cannot tell you how much I recommend you check out our Plant Power Meal Planner. We get all kinds of crazy emails

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Leave a review on Apple Podcasts, leave a comment on YouTube, and you can support us on Patreon at richroll.com forward slash donate. I want to thank everybody who helped put on the show today, Jason Camiello for audio engineering, production, show notes, interstitial music, Blake Curtis, who's manning the soundboard right now, and Margo Lubin for videoing the show and all the clips that you see on YouTube and social media. Jessica Miranda for graphics, DK right here. Thank you, my brother, for advertiser relationships.

My pleasure. Without you, the show is a no-go, my man, so. It's not really true. Much love. And Ali Rogers for portraits and theme music, as always, by Annalema. So thanks for all the support and the love and the attention. I do not take you guys for granted. I love you, and I'll see you back here next week with my friend Andy Romich, founder of the One Year No Beer Movement. It's a great story. And he's also an author. His book is called

The 28 Day Alcohol-Free Challenge. It's a good one. Until then, get outside and move. Love your friends. Reach out to somebody you haven't talked to in a while. Pick up that phone. Whatever you need to do, man.

Enrich your life. Peace. Plants. Namaste. Thank you.