The Rich Roll Podcast - Dr. Michael Gervais On Elite Performance & The Psychology of Self-Mastery

Episode Date: October 24, 2016

At the highest echelon of elite performance, all the athletes possess otherworldly talent. Their thirst for glory is equally preternatural. All of them train to the outer limits of physical possibility. And they are all extraordinarily adroit at focusing on almost inhuman, impossible goals. So what accounts for the distance between the Olympic gold medalist standing proudly atop the podium and the athlete watching the games on television at home? Is it luck? Talent? Support? Resources? Of course every result is significantly influenced by some combination of these important variables. But all things being equal, the difference between the champion and the also ran boils down to one distinct variable: The mind. Once the embarrassing last stop on a flailing athlete’s career, the world's top sports psychologists now enjoys a highly influential and respected role proactively honing the mental and emotional edge of today's most successful athletes, CEOs and creatives looking to elevate peak performance beyond the imaginable. Enter Dr. Michael Gervais — the go to high performance psychologist everyone is talking about. A key member of the Red Bull High Performance Program, Michael works in the trenches of high-stakes environments with some of the world's most prolific Olympic and professional athletes — rare air where there is no luxury for mistakes, hesitation, or failure to respond. Dr. Gervais' results are beyond impressive. If you follow the NFL, then you might recall Michael as the guy Seattle Seahawks coach Pete Carroll credits as integral in their 2014 Super Bowl win for the meditation, mindfulness and other crucial team building techniques he helped foster and instill into the fabric of the Seahawks organization and team culture that paved the team’s path towards incredible success. You might also remember that Felix Baumgartner’s now-infamous Red Bull Stratos jump from an altitude of 128,000 feet almost never was simply because Felix simply could not overcome the high level of anxiety and claustrophobia he experienced every time he donned the jump suit. It was none other than Gervais who helped Baumagartner resolve the issue and get Stratos back on track. No Gervais, no history making jump. And more recently, Michael is the man behind Luke Aikins, who astonished the world this past July by becoming the first skydiver to jump from a plane at 25,000 feet without a parachute or wingsuit and live to tell the story. Dr. Gervais has also worked intimately with US Olympic Team members like beach volleyball superstar Kerry Walsh Jennings, as well as swimmers, snowboarders, golfers, basketball players, track and field athletes, an impressive array of top collegiate programs, and professional sports organizations including the NBA, NFL, NHL, MLB and UFC. In addition, his work has played an integral role in the US Military, as well as several collegiate and high school programs. While Dr. Gervais’ roster includes some of the sports world’s most elite, this isn’t just about high performance athletes. Enjoy! Rich

Mastery is available for all of us, especially the journey of self-discovery. And that's really what mastery of self is about. This journey of self-discovery that is available for everybody. Some people use a craft to better understand themselves and to better understand people in general. The craft of sport or music or whatever business. That craft is really just a really rich experience to learn more about who you are. That's high-performance sports psychologist Michael Gervais, and this is The Rich Roll Podcast.

The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey, everybody. How are you guys doing? What's going on? My name is Rich Roll.. Hey, everybody. How are you guys doing? What's going on? My name is Rich Roll. I am your host. Welcome or welcome back to the podcast where I have the great honor, the great privilege of going deep and wide with some of the most inspiring thought leaders and positive paradigm

breaking change makers all across the globe, people who have devoted their lives to making the world a better place. And I do this, I bring you these conversations to help all of us unlock and unleash our best, most authentic self. So I've got a great guest for you guys today, an amazing conversation. But before I get into that, let's acknowledge the awesome organizations that make this show possible. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment, an experience that I had that quite literally saved my life.

And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem. A problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs. They've partnered with the best global behavioral health providers to cover the full

spectrum of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do.

And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. And recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. Super excited about today's guest. I know I say that every week, but it is true. And this week, it's particularly true. You might know him as the man who pioneered meditation, mindfulness, and team building practices with the Seattle Seahawks under

legendary coach Pete Carroll. Coach Carroll credits Michael as integral in their Super Bowl win. And Michael's also the guy who helped Felix Baumgartner get his head right so he could jump out of the Red Bull Stratus capsule at 128,000 feet. And more recently, Michael is the man behind a guy named Luke Akins. And Luke is the guy who set a world record this past July by becoming the first skydiver to jump from a plane at 25,000 feet without a parachute. No parachute, no wingsuit. He landed in a net. He lived to tell the story. And we talk about that in the podcast near the end. I first sat down with Michael in December of 2014. That's RRP 120. It was such a great conversation. We've become friends since.

And that was a conversation about the opportunity we all have every day to create a living masterpiece. And what was really cool about that initial podcast was that it was the catalyst. It was the inspiration for Michael to start his own podcast, which is awesome. I take a lot of pride and satisfaction in helping to inspire him to do this because I think he's just so gifted and it's a perfect medium for him sharing his expertise. His podcast is called Finding Mastery. I've been fortunate to be a guest on his show and it's really fantastic and totally unique. You should all check it out. It's about deeply mining the mindset and the practices of high performers in a wide array of disciplines. And Michael just has a knack, a touch, a level of experience and expertise

that he could just go deeper than anybody else in a really unique and profound way. So definitely check that out. Okay, so this conversation picks up where RRP 120, my original conversation with Michael, leaves off. And we delve much deeper into what makes Michael tick. And we even venture into some really fascinating and surprisingly mystical areas here. But at its core, this is a conversation about the crucial components of maximizing performance in sport and life. We explore the freedom of courage.

We talk about something Michael calls an off-axis nature. Michael calls an off-axis nature. We discuss the principles of effective coaching, pursuing the razor's edge, and the power of positive thinking, and what is really required to master the self. Michael is truly, truly one of my favorite people. He's just a really magical, amazing person. And this is just such a cool conversation. I hope you enjoy listening to it as much as I enjoyed having it. So let's do it. How's it going? Yeah, so good. It's so great to see you. It's been a while, but when I walked in here and we had a nice hug,

it was like, we're brothers, man, in this podcast game. Well, you know what's funny is that when you're coming down, I was just curious about what we're going to talk about. Can you hear that, you think, in the background? It's okay. It's just the vibe. We've done this every time. The first time we did this, there was something like…

We don't live in a hermetically sealed universe that we can control, Michael. Isn't this the focus of your practice with the athletes you work with? So as you're coming down, I was wondering what we're going to talk about. And I thought that, God, you know, like the first time we met, it was such an awakening. So I've done other podcasts, but it was really an awakening of what it felt like to be in a podcast. So I just want to thank you again for introducing me to the way it felt to have an organic and real conversation with somebody that was really curious. And it wasn't about media and broadcasting, but it was really just a curious conversation. So I want to thank you for opening that up to me. Well, thank you for being so open and having so much candor in

our initial conversation. In the wake of that, yeah, like we had communicated via email a number of times. And you were like, hey, what's up with this? You know, I'm thinking about doing a podcast. And I was like, that's great. I think it's the perfect medium for your message and your disposition and your personality. And so it's been very- Did you just say I have like a face and a personality for ready? You did.

Oh my God. Oh, see what that's interesting you're interpreting it as a negative wow let's if i was you i'd be like what's behind that michael that's really good yeah um no i think that you're you're uh you're perfect for the like your temperament is beautifully suited for this medium and so it wasn't a surprise to me that you would be interested in exploring this medium and then it's been cool to just kind of sit back and answer a couple questions for you here and there and to see you create this, not just a show, but a community. Yeah, I'm super grateful. Thank you. You've grown this thing into a really cool thing. And I love the show. And,

you know, as predicted, you are very good at it it's been really cool so i guess the first thing i want to talk about is just what has that what has this you know podcast adventure and experience you know how has it been for you and what have you learned from it and what's it all about um okay so i think we're somewhere in we're about at a year mark of doing it and it there's been some cycles so at first the first cycle was wow this is going to be great like i'm i'm looking forward to this i can't wait to meet some people and celebrate yeah right yeah exactly like i was really like gung-ho and on it about and then the first hurdle is like okay technology and how do you set up the process and you know that's relatively

easy now and um so thank you again for the help. So that was like the first phase of preparation and getting ready. And then the setbacks and obstacles were like getting the look and feel of the website right. And like, what is the right way to develop a platform? And then the second, right after that was like, well, okay. So my mom, my dad, my wife dad my wife my you know like who's listening you know like not many people uh from the get and then building the right community to um or inviting people to be part of the community was uh is challenging yeah and so well it's tricky for you i mean first of all everything you've done is super pro like the website looks phenomenal

it's like the perfect website for a podcast and everything is top notch, like right out of the gate. But I would imagine it's tricky for you because in the business that you're in, uh, a lot of the people that I would imagine would be interesting to have on the podcast or people that you're working with professionally. And that creates this weird, you know, sort of line that you probably can't cross. It's it. So I made a commitment to not have anyone that I've worked with in the past in a professional capacity, like via craft of psychology,

to not have them on the podcast. Even if they say they want to? Yeah, and most have. And some that are best in the world, and it's very public that we've worked together and um you know i'm grinning right now because i i'd love i'd love to do it but i don't want to cross any lines ever perception wise or undo influence or introduce something that is just a different mix other than our shared agreement, which is it's about that person being the best version of themselves.

And that's our primary agreement. So yeah, it's a little bit of a bummer. You've gotten very good at using pronouns in your show though, instead of proper names. And I'm like, I wonder who he's talking about. Like I'm like,

well, I was talking to this guy. He's the absolute best in the world and has been forever. I mean, the best. And he said this to me and you, you can't help, but go, all right, who would that be? Would it be this guy is it michael phelps is it like yeah i

know who's michael working with behind the lines so you create this mystique oh is that how about like well so i try to practice michael gervais that's funny because i try to figure out the right way to um be vague enough but also capture the right essence of the story or the insight that was shared with me that is tricky because i've learned so much from people that are in the amphitheater whatever amphitheater that they're most attracted to i've learned so much from them and that's one of the reasons that this experience for me to have a podcast has been phenomenal because now i'm able to celebrate other others that I haven't worked with, but that are deep into their craft, have some insight and understanding about how they work,

the world works or their world works. And that part's been just a continued learning for me. Yeah, it's cool. I mean, despite your expertise and your experience, it's not the teaching mastery podcast, it's the finding mastery podcast. So you're putting yourself in the position of the audience member, like let's, let's go explore these other people. Um, and I'm not going to tell them what's what they're going to tell me what's what, or we're just going to have this cool conversation. And it's impossible, at least in my experience, when I have these conversations to not walk away feeling like, Oh yeah, of course I learned all kinds of things right now. It's up to me. How am I going to implement this into my life? And for you,

perhaps, how am I going to sort of take this nugget and incorporate it into the work that I do with the athletes that I work with? Yeah. So that's the part. I'd love to get your take on this because, so if there was a couple of hurdles up front, a lot of excitement, a couple of hurdles, but the excitement and passion carries through to figure things out on the podcast or to get the podcast going and then um there's lots of insight that people have that have been deep in the trenches of any craft and working to understand those insights is one thing and that's kind of what the conversation is about organizing those is a totally different thing and we're doing that like behind the scenes in preparation for getting better to try to make sense of what people are saying, putting things in themes and organizing them that

way. Like trying to canonize like the consistencies or the actual kernels of wisdom that are coming out of each one of them. Yeah. Because some people, person A and person B conflict, and they see things completely different. So I'll ask a question about pressure. Where does pressure come from?

And I can't remember who says internal and who says external right now, but plenty of people say, oh, it's totally from within. Most people say that. But there's some that are world-class that say, oh, it's always from outside. So what do we do with that? How do we make sense of that? And so that's what I'm trying to sort out now. So I'd love to know how you learn from the people that you're spending time with and

then apply it within yourself. Do you have a way that you're assimilating this information? First of all, you're trying to flip it on me here. Don't think I don't know that. I'm not. It's like hardwired in you, though. I know you can't help it because of all you're just you're trying to flip it on me here don't think i don't know that it's like hard you know like i know you can't help it because of what you do but it's cool i'll try to answer that you know um i don't know that i have a systemic approach to that i i expect that everybody's going to have their own personal experiences and those are going to be all over the map. And I look for consistencies, you know, more than I look for conflicts, I suppose.

But I don't know. I think I take what resonates with me and I discard the rest, you know. And I think if you're just looking to, I think I try to empathize and put myself in the shoes of the guest and try to, you know, walk a mile or walk a couple blocks and see how that feels. And there's always going to be something that works. But I try to challenge my own, like, worldview and my own, like, perception of dogma and all of that that I carry around. Because unless you do that, you're not going to grow and change, right. But I think there are certain things that you're just, you're hard wired one way or the other. Like if you're somebody who is motivated by internal pressure

versus external pressure, I don't think that's going to change. You know, I just think that there are different kinds of people. Like it's not a one size fits all kind of thing where you can say, here's your protocol for finding mastery or, you know, becoming your best self or whatever it is. Like there's many paths to that as you know, I'm sure you would agree. So a thousand percent. Yeah. So, so when you're doing that, I mean, what, how, I mean, have there been, has it been, have there been surprises? Like, have you learned in ways that you didn't expect and has that changed how you do what you do? Cool question. I don't think there's been like these dramatic shifts in what I've come to understand. There's lots of reinforcements. There's different ways of saying, I think the

same thing. And so I'm struck by as the variance in ways that people are saying the same thing. So that part's been really fun and it almost feels playful. It feels like many of the folks that I'm spending time with on the podcast, they're new questions. They haven't necessarily thought a lot about them and they're dancing in a way with the question that is on the spot. They're illuminating the essence of how they think and do. And so that part has been like, just to see them work has been really fun there's one person that right afterwards

came you know like the mics turned off and um and right almost right after said that was really hard like like that was really hard and because we're trying to get to something that is like authentic and real and not talk about pizza and not talk about like favorite restaurants and, you know, like all that stuff. But like down in the depths of like the deepest part of a person, how do they understand and where are they coming from? And it's hard to get to that place, especially if you have somebody who's media savvy and is used to doing interviews. place, especially if you have somebody who's media savvy and is used to doing interviews, it's like 15 minutes of building rapport, then, you know, 15 to 30 minutes of them sort of spitting out what they usually spit out when they're being interviewed until you exhaust that. And then you're like, okay, now we can get to who you really are. But you have like this, you know,

you have like the turnpike, like the, the the the hyperloop approach to getting right to who they are pretty quickly of course that's through all of your experience and training and all of that but i love when you kind of identify something interesting or special and you get so excited you're like oh that's it yeah oh that's awesome let's go yeah what is that? What is that? You know, I got some feedback recently from a couple folks, and then I saw that the person who's helped me, Trevor, is helping me on the back end on the website piece. And so there's some feedback that came in, like, why does Mike keep cutting people off?

And so I'd love to give you this nugget. Maybe you can use it and play with it. When you disrupt somebody's flow of thought and you disrupt somebody's cadence in their own rhythm of their own mind, there's a neurochemical release that takes place where attention is heightened. And now once that happens, then it becomes easier to get right to the truth. So as soon as people are media savvy and they're answering the question that they know they should answer it and they tripped onto something that's really good and that you know they're not going to go any further and that's a really wonderful moment to interrupt somebody.

But sometimes it feels rude because in social settings it is, but in depth of conversation it doesn't have to be that way. Yeah, I get that. I struggle with that too. I mean, I've gotten that feedback in the past and then I've gone too far in the other direction. And when you have somebody who's media savvy and you just let them run wild, it ends up being a pretty tepid conversation.

Yeah. It feels like an interview that you would get on fill in the blanks news network. Right. Exactly. So how do you find that? You know, how do you make it you know how do you make it special how do you make it different and it's been interesting for me because we've shared a couple of the same guests right we've had we've had uh i made a little list here colin o'brady anthony

irvin ryan holiday dan harris are all people that there's probably some others too but those are the ones that come to mind and and uh i think maybe in every case i interviewed them before you did or at least my episode aired first yes so then it's like oh i think i did a pretty good job with that and then i listened to you and i'm like oh that's so good totally different but like totally different yeah you're getting a you're getting a very interesting perspective on this person's life in a way that's very unique very unique and very very much you uh very different from me but you know amazing in its own right and it's cool that those can kind of coexist but i thank you because i've learned a lot about how to talk to people and how to make it interesting from listening to how you've you know talked to

people that i've had a good portion of meeting epic yeah and all of those people are on it aren't they oh my god i know it's crazy how fun was it to follow anthony irvin during the olympics it was it was the most amazing thing yeah and i and uh i see his book sitting right over there chasing water um and you happen to be there in person but i can tell you from being in los angeles and i think we actually did we we interviewed him on the same day. I think he was with you in the morning and then he came over to my house and I had technical glitches with that. And my dog kept interrupting. It didn't go to plan. You know what I mean? I got some great stuff out of him and

we ended up hanging out all afternoon and I really bonded with him and I feel very close to that guy. I feel like I understand him and I feel like we bonded in a really cool way. And I'm not sure I did the best job of getting that recorded. And I would like to do it again with him. But that thought is real for me, is that after a conversation, I walk away from any conversation I have with somebody and I just have this sense like, did I honor and capture the truth of who they are and how they really understand the world? And was there enough space? Were the questions right? And I mean like emotional and psychological and spiritual space to get to the essence of the person. And then the other part that drives me crazy is that when I feel like it was a good connection,

a good rapport, good insights, and we held that relationship with esteem, that I wish 10 million people were listening. Right. I wish 100 million people could hear it and resonate with it as well. But it's there, and it's there forever, and it exists. Yeah. and it's there forever and it exists you know yeah um and the the i want to get back to to tony in a second but the thing that i struggle with with athletes is that it's very easy to default to kind of going episodically through their resume especially when they're extremely

accomplished like in 2008 tell me about this race and then that race and then this happened and you know it's like i feel like i need to cover everything and i noticed when you spoke accomplish like in 2008 tell me about this race and then that race and then this happened and you know it's like i feel like i need to cover everything and i noticed when you spoke to anthony it's like okay you can look at the wikipedia page like let's just get to who you really are you know and i and i was like that's the way you do it right and i think i spent like i just had this experience with um i went up to portland and i interviewed shelaine flanagan the marathon runner yeah and and i felt like i kind of did that like i kind it was it was great and i got tons of really cool stuff out of them and i feel good about the interview but i if i was to do it again i think

i wouldn't have felt that pressure to go through all the races and just you know pick pick and choose maybe one or two but then go beyond Right. And it's tough with athletes because athletes are, for me, they're very difficult to interview because they live lives. They live very sort of cloistered lives as opposed to some other people. And, you know, if you have a comedian on, it's like, they do all the work for you, right? It's easy. You know, they can make it entertaining and fun and whatever. but I feel with an athlete, the pressure's more on me to make it move and make it special. Do you feel that? I mean, you do mostly athletes, but... Actually, I don't think I have.

I think it's been... It feels like it's been one for every four or five. So I'm trying not to do too many athletes, but there's enough in there, of course. I think that the athlete challenge is that they're doers more than thinkers and that's why we're so fascinated by them you know and the greatest the greatest of the greatest i'm not sure they can capture how they've done what they've done right you know i'm not saying they're not smart but it's like how do you how do you articulate what that is that's just the core of who they are? It's really special, though.

I mean, it is really special when you get close to that level of brilliance, whatever form it's in, whether it's moving or moving, meaning the intelligence of movement. It's very special. And you can extract perspectives and practices out of those people, but you can't teach like who they are and what they do. That's right. Well, how they see the world is how anybody sees the world is challenging to articulate because it's so massive and so big. And if,

unless you've spent the lonely time, the alone time to articulate a philosophy or a way of seeing the world or insights that make sense to you, unless you've framed it in some kind of way, it just feels like, I don't know, like snowflakes falling around you. It's hard to capture it in a meaningful way. People that have taken the snowflakes, fell in love with the wonderment of the uniqueness of each one, and then organized it in a way that it takes shape and form. And more than just one snowflake at a time, while still honoring one snowflake at a time, it's wonderful. And it's hard. It's really hard. Right, right. Well, I think Anthony is not only a doer.

I think he is a thinker. Oh, yeah. I think that makes him uniqueer. Oh, yeah. I think that makes him unique. He's an explorer. Yeah. Anthony went on a ride. And I just know, you know, we both spoke to him on the same day. And this was before the Olympic trials, like six weeks, I think.

And, you know, after the podcast was over, and I don't think I'm speaking out of school. I think he would be okay talking about this. He was not all that confident. He was sort of going into Olympic trials thinking, this is going to be my swan song. I'm not going to make the team, but I'm going to use this as a way to wave goodbye graciously to the sport. He had been training at USC. It wasn't going that great, but he had made this decision that he was going to go to North Carolina and train with Dave Marsh. And he's gone on record. There's been articles about this, but Dave Marsh kind of took him and said, we're going to start over. We're going to rebuild you in this very short period of time, especially his start, which has always been his Achilles heel.

They started him off like he was an eight-year-old teaching him how to dive again. And then he goes to the Olympics and he had a couple lousy starts in the earlier prelims and some of his swims. But when he got up on the blocks for that final, he got off the blocks the way he was, you know, the way everyone else did. It wasn't that he had a better start than anyone, but he just didn't have a bad start. And to see him win that gold medal, like after making the team, like everything, you know, win that gold medal, like after making the team, like everything, you know, what his mindset was when I spoke to him to that place was just absolutely the most spectacular, extraordinary thing. And I was like, I don't think people realize like how amazing that is when you see, when you read his book and you understand the context and everything that he's gone through,

all these phases of his life to be in that spot, I think was the story of the Olympics. You know, both of us should see if we, I don't like the word should, and I just caught myself saying it, but wouldn't it be fun if both of us also talked to Marsh, Coach Marsh? Because to take an absolute physical genius that's rusty and suggest to redo the framework that's radical yeah and you know not like over a year no like conventional wisdom is that it rarely works and like don't do anything don't do anything new at the last minute yeah right you know my god so like there's that that was a really bold aggressive move and they both committed to it completely and that the risk is that they get caught right in the middle of something, new habit and old habit, and it comes out just really below average. And to see him, you know, throw his hands up in the air,

that's, that's, that's rad. So and I think he said, when you spoke to him that he was somebody who was motivated externally, right? And he said that the reason he sort of celebrated in the way that he did after he won wasn't for himself. It was for everybody else that had supported him and believed in him, which is a really beautiful sentiment. And it was interesting. I don't know. Were you there in person to watch that race?

I was in Rio, but not at the race. Yeah, I knew you were in Rio, and I want to talk to you about that in a minute. But it was interesting on television to see these uh the 50 freestylers are like just beasts these guys are behemoths you know they're all just like massive and they're super cut and like just they just they're so physically intimidating and tony's a big guy like he's tall uh but when they kind of showed all the athletes individually and then they got to him, I'm like, he looked so much more slender and lean and he's not as ectomorphic as these other guys. And you wouldn't have picked him out of a lineup to say, that's the guy who's going to take the gold.

So on that thought, like picking a lineup, can I take a story in a different direction? So this was a thought that was introduced to me maybe 15 years ago. And it was like an experimental thought. And the thought was, and I can't remember right now as I'm recapturing this, if the experience actually happened to the person who shared the thought with me or he was just kind of proposing a dilemma. And I think it actually happened for him. But so anyways, if you could line, so have GMs and media people in a room. So a couple of GMs, general managers of a team who are good at talent identification

and some media folks. And if you were to line up, let's say it's in basketball and you were to line up 15 athletes and say, pick the five to win the championship tomorrow. And you had some that were tatted. They definitely partied last night. They've got some earrings, you know, in odd places, and they just look ragged. But they've been in the league for a long time.

And then you have all the clean cut, you know, buttoned down. a long time and then you have all the clean cut you know button down they look the physical part of the stereotypical elite athlete which do you choose and the conventional wisdom would probably say well don't pick the guy that's hung over and so the way that this dilemma went is that the media folks they picked the guys that were hung over with tattoos and like because they know that they know how to go for it might not be able to sustain it but they know how to let it rip right and i'm not saying that because anything's got tattoos i'm saying that but this idea of knowing how to let it rip there's something really important i know you know this side of of life but really understanding the freedom that takes place and the courage to do so on the razor's edge

i think when you were talking to dan harris you called that being off axis right which is a defining sort of characteristic of your own life as well yeah for me off access is i don't know if i articulate it well enough then our off access is just when it's a bit off-center and so going for it access a a x i s that's not access c c e s right thank you yeah access like as in 360 degrees or whatever right so when things are tilted in just a particular way and it's unique and it's different that off-axis nature is really fun and it's counterint that off-access nature is really fun. And it's counterintuitive and counterculture sometimes and seeing something or doing something in just a bit different, in a different way. And that's not necessarily what I'm talking about, about going for it, but

the courage to go for it and then the freedom that's felt when you do go for it, especially when it's on the razor's edge. But you have to have some level of independent spirit and confidence and the ability to perceive the world a little bit differently to say, I'm going to go left when everyone's going right. That's correct. Even if it's just one step to the left, if you're in a team sport, that can cause all kinds of problems too. A lot of problems.

There has to be kind of some you know unique internal driver but in general that's what leads to exceptionalism we don't smile upon it when it's happening we'll recognize it later after the accomplishment has been vetted but while it's percolating right we're like that guy's out of control right the same thing you would say that to tony in college like he's part like he's partying what is he doing this guy's out of control, right? The same thing, you would say that to Tony in college, like he's partying, what is he doing? This guy's, you know, he's a deadbeat, get him off the team, right? What's funny is it doesn't work

unless they get the results. Well, they have to have a coach. They have to have a mentor who can see through that and figure out like Tony did with Mike Bottom, who said, you know, there's something special here and I gotta be able to like tap into that and figure it out, right? And that requires patience, perception, a level of emotional investment, like all the things that you do, right?

Maybe. Yeah. So it's like every coach from Pop Warner to NCAA to the Olympics should be listening to your podcast because there's so much bad advice and kind of errant perspectives and, and kind of errant, you know, uh, perspectives that are, that are being thrown around by coaches all across the world. So this is not a complicated model, but if you think about a model of coaching and we're talking about, um, coaching humans, right? So not life coaching. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about, um, coaching in some sort of craft. It could be business, but it's easier to think about this in sport.

I'm making a pyramid with my hand right now that at the base are amateur coaches, and then you move up a level and there's performance coaches. They're more similar than the next two levels. And the next level up is high performance coaches. And then at the very tip is elite performance coaches. And the amateur and performance coaches are more similar in that they don't ask many questions. They do a lot of telling and talking, and they're not always accurate. And they haven't done that internal lonely work to really understand the craft and really understand the person across from them to know how to help reveal the insight and wisdom from that person. But when you go up the pyramid to the high performance and the elite performance coaches is that they have such a regard for the people around them. They ask great questions. They pull the best out of people. They challenge them

like it's like in a relentless way, but they build a relationship that is built on something, not just outcome. And so when you're talking about like folks to listen most people are amateur in in the way that they coach others because they haven't gone through a formalized training program on coaching you know so right there's no barrier to entry to being a coach yeah and it's certainly so how do any of us learn it like there's some there pedagogy is a study that you can actually take course works and degrees in at universities, which is the study of learning and teaching. But you got to be around people that are exceptional at what they do and are able to translate that to help others become

exceptional. And that is incredible to be around. I feel like in the most general sense, and correct me if I'm wrong, but in the most sort of global sense, there's kind of two kinds of coaches, right? And maybe these are lower on that tier that you just described. or lower on that tier that you just described. But in a dualistic way, there's coaches that are trying to elicit performance out of their athletes through negative reinforcement. If you don't do well, you're off the team. You know, you better perform or, you know, we're going to have to have a big talk

or, you know, whatever it is, like a lot of stick and not a lot of carrot. And then you have the positive reinforcement coaches who are like, you did great. That was awesome. We're going to get it next time. Or, you know what I mean? And so where do you fall in that spectrum?

What's good about each of these? What's wrong with this? Is that a question? Obviously, as you go up, it becomes a more nuanced thing. But you know what I mean? Like, I feel like, you know, look, you go to your little kid's soccer game, right right and you got screaming parents and all kinds of insanity that goes on that just makes me think like i'm in a you know a lunatic asylum and i'm like how are

people seeing the world this way well that's fear is a real deal that gets like it's a filter for people's communication and the lenses that they see the world through. So when people are afraid, they talk about what could go wrong. And it's really tough to play the long game from fear. Because you can help somebody in the short game. Like to shift their physiology or to wake up some intensity. You mean with a little negative barb? Yeah, but it's not sustainable. Snap to it. And then you can't play the card too many times so it's like for me it's like

a it's just a bad strategy it's just a really bad strategy so there's so many i mean i never responded to that as an athlete and i've been under coaches that came from that perspective and it doesn't work all it does is make me not want to play anymore not want to participate a thousand percent so that's why kids leave sport the ride home it's the it's based on the questions but i would imagine as you're moving up and the proficiency and the professionalism of these coaches you know notches upward and until you get to that highest level none of those people are coming from that perspective. Some are.

Are they? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Like there's all types. And I think that, I think this is important to recognize is that at the elite, there's not one, and you know this, that there's not just one way to do it. And whether that's the performer or the coach, and there's people that break every model, coach and there's people that break every model you know they don't train they don't eat right they sleep awfully and how are you going to write a book about this now yeah right well that's all over the place yeah it is really they're rare but those genetic freaks they party they do whatever those genetic freaks that don't need a whole lot of training to be great, it's rare, but it's there. And there's some coaches that you would never want to go to dinner with them. There'd be nothing enjoyable about it.

There are more that work hard, are diligent, care deeply, and are a bit overwhelmed by the pressure from having to do well. That's the typical model, both from coaches and athletes. And would you agree that the best coaches are the ones who will adjust their approach based upon what's going to work best for the specific athlete? Like they're malleable to some extent in order to get to that thing that's going to get the best performance out of that athlete, and that's going to be different athlete to athlete. I think the best coaches to support your idea, they operate from love and they have a level of love for what's actually taking place between the exchange of

two people. And they love the way it feels to go for it. They love the way it feels to help others go for it and to learn. So there's a love of learning and a love of people and a love of exploring and a love of pressure. And there's a love that they work from as opposed to a fear. And so that's, yeah. But that means that they have to be in it for the right reasons, right? You can't like compel somebody to adopt that level of love. They either have it or they don't. to adopt that level of love.

They either have it or they don't. Well, you know, it's funny because there's so many coaches that I do know that get great results that don't operate from love. So that's the challenge. You know, so that like, there's no one way that this really works. And, but if you're like, this question that I'm answering is really like my, and maybe your biased interpretation of who you and I would like to be coached by. Yeah, that's probably true. And the relationships that we see that seem to matter, you know, but research would not hold up that there, um,

that there's just one way to bring the best out of people. Like, look at, look at the NFL, for example, coach Carol from the Seattle Seahawks has a 180 degree approach, different approach than Bill Belichick from the Patriots. Completely opposite. I don't know Coach Belichick, but it sounds that way to me. I would imagine the difference between a Dave Marsh coaching Tony six weeks before the Olympics versus an NFL coach where you're a general with legion of athletes that you're in charge of. How do you, you can't, I mean, you have to have like an overarching philosophy, right? That's sort of applicable to everybody because you can't get overly invested in any one athlete. Well, that's rare. What you just said is really rare is for

people to have a grounded, real philosophy. And that's what I was trying to articulate with the snowflakes earlier, right? Having a grounded, clear philosophy that is unique and true to you. And it feels really authentic when you say it out loud and you say it out loud a lot. And so that you can pressure test it, you can asset test it, you can make sure it still works. That is really rare, and it takes a lot of work to get that thing just right. But don't the greats have that? They do. Whether it's Vince Lombardi or Pat Riley or Pete Carroll.

Yes, they do. That's what defines who they are, right? And so a philosophy is a decision-making framework about how you make decisions in your life. And we know the philosophy of the most dynamic changers of the globe. We know what they are. Martin Luther King Jr., we know his philosophy. Eleanor Roosevelt, we know her philosophy. You know, Mother Teresa, we know her philosophy because she talked about it and she walked about it. And it was really clear. And so, yes, those that shift and influence individuals at scale,

and that's an interesting, I think, way to think about it, they definitely know what they stand for. Let's talk about the Olympics. Oh, yeah. How was your Rio experience? It was hard. Yeah? Yeah, it was hard.

It was really hard. Because? Well, I guess there's lots of ways to think about it. The first part of the hardship is to see the suffering of the people that live in the favelas. Yes. Well, not even the favelas. Even the town folk. The level of suffering is real.

And it feels like paradise that's been ruined. It's beautiful. It's amazing. There's love from people. And they've also, because of the misallocation or the lack of resources for the country, the lack of resources for the country, the community of people have, at some level, agreed that lying, sneaking, robbing,

at some level is acceptable because I need to put bread on my table for my kids. And I really, I 1,000% understand it. But there is suffering. There's real suffering. Yeah, so there's suffering there's real suffering yeah so there's this crazy juxtaposition of this unbelievable event on top of this template of human pain yeah and if you go to the coast um for rio in brazil there is like uh imponema beach and copacabana beach is some of the most beautiful and expensive real estate in the world. And literally one or two blocks right behind it. You're, if there's two or three

males walking together, definitely the entire time my antenna was up, was, was up. And, you know, it's exactly what you would imagine from a really tough, deprived city in the inner city of anywhere that we would go to in America. But at the same time, there's something even more disparaging about it. Because the upside, the delta between the poor and the rich is so radical. Where, you know, there's just more hope in first world countries that you could figure some things out not that it's easy in any any condition where poverty is a real deal but man it was hard so that's one reason it was hard another reason i'm sorry i was gonna say the the weird thing is that in the united in the united states though um generally as you move up the

hillsides that's where the fancy nice houses are right but it's the opposite there right that's exactly where all the poorest people live up in the hillsides and on the mountains yeah and they value the the coastline they value the beach so they get great views but you know it's like maybe you have electricity maybe you don't so all that's going on like a low sort of hum as you're trying to do what you do and work with the athletes i mean you were there kind of in a in an official capacity with the women's volleyball team right yeah for sure official capacity with indoor women's volleyball and um a team on the women's beach side of volleyball can you talk about that at all or

yeah yeah i mean it was you know carrie. I mean, it was, you know, Kerry Walsh is somebody that, you know, it's been publicly said that you've been working with her and her husband, so much so that, like, the commentators even commented on it during the competition. You got name called. I mean, you made a video with them, so, you know, I'm assuming that we could talk about it a little bit, but maybe walk me through some of the work that you did with her and her husband to kind of get her in that mindset to do what she does. So here's the tricky part, is that she made it really public, I think at the last Olympics, that we'd spent a lot of time and done a lot of work. But what hasn't ever been public is the nature of the work and the things that we'd spent a lot of time and done a lot of work. But what hasn't ever been public is the nature of the work and the things that we've done. So let's talk broadly, if you will.

I mean, look, talk about what you're comfortable talking about. Yeah, so it's really unbecoming for me to talk about. I know. Well, I've been going back and forth with Carrie. I'm going to get her on the podcast, because I know you can't. But we're just trying to figure out a date. So'll make her spill all those beans that's rad I mean and you're gonna absolutely have um she seems fantastic and really understands it and so I will

love to tune into that podcast for sure but here's the general relationships are challenging on the world stage just like for the rest of us and things become amplified so they did some relationship work early that is all public and great and here's here's the takeaway is that um i don't i don't know if this is completely accurate but i think most people meet a moment in time in their relationships where everything is questioned and it did it for me in my my life. And my wife and I were married for a long time. And she basically at one moment had said, Hey, listen, I love you, but I don't think I can be with you anymore. I've been in that situation. Have you? Yeah. And so that's really

good. You know, like at the time was the hardest thing in the world. And it was because I was being selfish and I was not attending properly as a good lover and a support system. And it was because I was being selfish and I was not attending properly as a good lover and a support system. And so I'll tell you what, my hope is that most people in intimate, deep, meaningful relationships go through that type of fire alone and together. And so they did the hard work that I'm talking about now and it was beautiful and it was amazing. The way that I think about relationships is that you're carrying two buckets and I'm carrying two buckets of full water. And if you want to put a bucket down, I'll pick your bucket up. You want to put the second one down?

Okay, I'm going to pick this up. Now I'm at capacity now, and I'll do it as long as I possibly can. I'll carry it for a little while. As long as I possibly can. I'll carry it for a little while. As long as I possibly can. I don't know if I can go the whole distance with it. That's right. And I hope that you're going to give me some love and I'm doing it and let's at least honor it. And then can I put one down and will you pick it back up? And then can I give two of them back or empty some out some kind of way and give you one back?

And that's kind of the thing. And as long as one person doesn't take advantage and walk without buckets for too long of a time, relationships will work. But when both people put their buckets down, that's when you got a problem. The interesting thing about that beyond the obvious is that it has nothing to do with playing volleyball. Right. And then you layer on top of it, all of the mindset skills to take advantage of,

you know, so, you know, baseline stuff is, is super important to be able to have a sustainable framework. And the baseline stuff I'm talking about is like, who are you? Who are you in relationships with others? How do you want to live your life? You know, when sport is done, like all of that basic, basic stuff, how do you want to live your life you know when sport is done like all of that basic basic stuff how do you want to live your life in sport and that's all really important framework stuff that allows for the long game to be played because i'm telling you it's it's not that complicated to be the best in your city at something but it is complicated to be the best in the world over an extended period of time. Yeah, it's the extended period of time part. I think that, you know, but beneath all of this, basically what you're saying is to perform to your maximum potential and capacity, you need to be, you know, a personal life and your mental game, your emotional

game, obviously your physical game, whatever your form of spirituality is. These things need to be attended to in order for you to be fully vetted and prepared for the pressures that come with being on the world stage. Yeah. Everything except the word happy. So I don't think happiness actually is a prerequisite. It makes it better. You know, when there's joy and contentment and peace, that's really cool. But there's something almost required to do the nauseatingly difficult, crazy making, stay on the razor's edge experiences day in and day out that, you know, breeds some really, or it requires, let me say it differently, requires some sort of

unhealthy tendencies that might facilitate people to be great. And so there is a, it can be tricky. I would say that people do to play the long game, to pursue the best version of yourself and whatever the craft that anyone might be interested in, whether that is a mom or a dad or a parent or a business person, entrepreneur or athlete included, is that they need to have a sense of autonomy. They need to have like that they are not alone, but that they are uniquely themselves, autonomous in thought and autonomous in action. They also need to be able to relate to others. So a sense of relatedness and connectivity that takes place. And then also, you know, the ability to commit to exploring and doing the difficult work. And so I think that those three parts, what's nice about those three at least is that they're all developmental.

Right. And I think that that gets amplified when you're talking about perpetuating the longevity of a career, right? Because you can blaze onto the scene at age 21 and do your thing and rise to the top and win your gold medal and do it without some of those tools

because when you're young, you're much more malleable. And you can go deep in that hole like Michael Phelps living in a dorm room by himself playing video games and eating junk food. That works when he's getting ready for that big moment when he's at that age. But when you're looking at your third Olympics, your fourth Olympics, your fifth Olympics, and life gets larger and more complicated, and there's other people involved, and you've matured to an extent, and you're trying to find ways to maintain your peak performance, but also continue to have the joy and the enthusiasm that got you into it in the first

place, which is a key component in succeeding because inevitably, otherwise it's a chore and you're going to burn out and all these other things. Right. And I would imagine that must have been part of what was going on with Carrie and, and, you know, infecting the relationship and et cetera. Yeah. Just, just laying the groundworks. And I think my hope is that for people is that we all invest in that foundational groundwork stuff, spiritual framework, psychological framework, who am I, what are we doing here and how do I want to do relationships? Right. Cause that's, I don't know where we're, that's kind of the essence of it. And then once you have that in place, all the stuff it's not easy and you gotta want

it you gotta want to do the work right and i think that this is now let's go back to the coaching piece you have to want it but why do people change i think my observation and there's some research around this is that people change because of pain and so it's the pain of i'm sick and tired of being sick and tired which i know you know know that phrase. I'm sick of this. And so when people can experience a level of pain, they will do change. But changing for itself is hard now. What is the personality type that can commit to change

and growth and evolution without meeting that pain threshold? Because that's a unique person. Like, I wish I was that guy. So you, okay, well, maybe after I describe it, you might not wish you were that guy. Okay, yeah. So it's some kind of like sociopathy or something? Yeah, yeah.

I mean, so I think what I hear you saying is, without pain, what is the personality type or the characteristics of people that work relentlessly to pursue their potential? Is that right? Or even maybe in a broader construct, just people that are always like growing and, you know, trying new things, and they don't have to come to some place of suffering and, you know, meeting their maker in order to say, you know what, I can make my relationship better, or I could try a little

bit harder, or maybe, you know, maybe I should start doing ice baths or you know like always like people that are exploring and always you know committed on some level to expand expansion right without like you know you know what i mean with like without like destroying their relationships first or all that kind of stuff that compels most people to come into the fold and say okay now i gotta like look at a bunch of stuff I don't want to look at. Yeah, I don't know many of them. Yeah, it's hard, right? Yeah, I don't know many of them. I know lots of beautiful people.

Why is that? Well, I think that there's... It's the human condition? Yeah, there's a wanting, and there's a hole that most of us have. Right, and without that hole, there's no driver. Yeah, and that hole is like if you put a spiritual lens on it like it's the loneliness being disconnected from the deity that you call god or whatever that might be for you that like there's lots of ways to think about

it but yeah um i love it though i love the light and the dark side of the human experience i love the the the the crater that i think we all have the loneliness that we all have love the light and the dark side of the human experience. I love the crater that I think we all have, the loneliness that we all have, and the want and the desire to fill it. And sometimes we fill it with things that are not healthy, not wonderful, not good for us, but they keep us busy and they keep us stimulated and they release all the right chemicals in our brain to want us to want more. You got to appreciate the dark too. Like there's a lot of talk about, you know, especially in like new age circles, like it's all light and beauty and rainbows and unicorns and the secret and all of that.

But it's like, no, you have to embrace that dark aspect of, you know, who we are innately and only by recognizing it and, and owning it on some level, can you move away from it? Yeah. I was given a gift, I think from one of my early supervisors and that just rings true. What she said to me is do not trust people that are all light. I was like, Oh, they're hiding something. Yeah. It's not right. Okay. Let me figure that out. Yeah. Yeah. The guy who, uh, you shake his hand or he gives you a hug and then you got that 10,000 yard stare to the back of your skull and you're like, what's going on with that guy? I don't know if I trust him. You know what I mean? Interesting. Well, when we first did our

podcast, I mean, that was so long ago, we kind of went on the trajectory of your arc, your life that got you to this place. And I don't want to rehash that too much, but one of the things that I thought was interesting in your conversation with Dan Harris, you were touching on a couple things that we didn't really talk about last time. And I think I remember, well, I'm interested in kind of the superhero origin story, like Spider-Man gets bit by the spider. And in your case, I'm interested in, you know, kind of the superhero origin story, you know, like Spider-Man gets bit by the spider. And in your case, I think it's fair to boil that down to that anxiety that you experienced as a young surfer when you were sort of thrown into competition for the first time. And that being kind of this defining, catalyzing moment of getting you

interested in how the mind works, right? That set you on this course. of getting you interested in how the mind works right that set you on this course and i'm interested in your perspective and your thoughts in the wake of your recent podcast with uh anders erickson is that his name who really is it fair to say that he's really the guy who came up with the 10 000 hour rule right yeah well yeah so he wouldn't say that phrase no i know you're trying to get him to you know like sort of like he's it's not malcolm gladwell is actually this guy who did the research on this and it's not quite how we kind of you know reduce it it's a little more nuanced and complicated than that but the essence of it i think is you know sort of intact um but do you

think that that was the beginning of your 10,000 hour practice in your own life? Like, do you see yourself as somebody who put in your 10,000 hours starting around that time of being interested in the mind and how it works and psychology and performance? Because I thought it was really fascinating that, you know, you weren't like this naturally gifted student, like you struggled, you weren't this naturally gifted student. You struggled, you were in community college, and yet even in community college where most people are just kind of way stationed, you were able to connect with some pretty interesting teachers,

some professors who lit a spark for you and set you on this path. Really cool. Yeah, no, you're right on the money. I think that when i was 15 and i had that moment where i i just couldn't be me out in the water the way that i knew i i i needed to be because i wasn't honoring myself right so i was i was literally floundering as a mind and as a body and as a person who's trying to access a craft floundering. And I'm just

thinking of like, not floundering in life, but in those moments where I couldn't honor myself. And so that was the beginning of the pain. No, let me strike that. That was the beginning of me being aware of the pain and that there was actually something I could do about it when a competitor surfed by me and just basically said, stop worrying about what could go wrong. I didn't realize I was anxious. I didn't know that. I had no idea. Obviously, it's written all over your face. Yeah. Well, yeah, it must have been. You know what? You're the first person that brought that up. I've never thought about what I must have looked like to him. That's a really cool thought.

But that was the beginning of me going, oh, it was like a light bulb moment. And then another light bulb moment happened when I met a mentor. And another light bulb moment happened when I met those three professors at junior college. early it was for me it was like working out things while i was learning things so i was working out how all the theorists and psychology and spiritual um frameworks and and philosophers because those are the three professors that inspired me how they were thinking or the thoughts that they had way back when how could i apply them to surfing now so i I was tinkering, but I don't think it was training. And so I was tinkering for a long time, like in my own petri dish. Yeah, it was like applied psychology. You were applying these principles to your own life. But I didn't have a, yes. And I didn't have a framework to know how those principles really organized and fit together.

So it was really, I do think it was tinkering and it was, it was fun to tinker. But it wasn't this conscious decision, like this is my path. Like this is just what's going on. So I do think it was tinkering. And it was fun to tinker. But it wasn't this conscious decision like, this is my path. Like, this is just what's going on. Yeah, it was more almost self-absorbed. I think, I don't know, I just didn't know how else I was inspired by. I love surfing, and I love this knowledge I was learning. And what else was I going to do?

How else was I going to apply it other than to the thing I was surfing so what did you think you were going to do uh when I was younger yeah I traveled the world and surf surf right that was it uh-huh yeah and you got married really young right yeah so your wife was on board with no plan no that's why we almost got a divorce yeah so no that that's one of the reasons like you know looking back what i had no business no business being um in an intimate relationship with someone so beautiful no business i'm so thankful that that i was because it has helped shape me to refine a craft and so it was you know there there was big influences by her and her family and my parents and lots of people that said, listen, keep going.

If I was to talk to her right now, would she say, oh, I always saw this version of Mike way back then? Like, I knew that he had the potential to be this guy that he is today. Like, did she hold that vision for you? Or is she surprised by everything? No, she did she surprised by everything she did she did yeah she did she said it surprised by yeah she i mean it wasn't like nobody i don't think had an idea of how to um what the thing that i was going to do in my life was i didn't even know what sports psychology was or performance psychology i had no idea so i don't think

anyone had that thought but the thought let me tell you a funny story. Okay. Did we talk about like a mystic experience that happened to me? No, but I'd love to hear that. Would you like to hear this? So I don't, so it's funny because I'm now, now that I'm like, I don't know, 20 years removed from the beginnings of like me studying this stuff. And I feel like almost like an old man in a, like a relatively young person's body. And so this old man part of me is now talking about things I didn't talk about 20 years ago. Like on Dan Harris, I talked about healing imagery.

And that was something that I really wanted to reprise with you. Yeah, because when we first talked, and I haven't gone back and listened to our interview, but I'm pretty sure I asked you questions like, do you have a daily meditation practice? And you were like, not really. I get up and I just take a big inhale and I try to think of be grateful for something. It was very informal. I mean, it was specific, but it wasn't like, oh yes, you know, I do these certain things and I believe in these certain things.

And then I heard that story that you told with Dan and I was like, oh my God, like that's, maybe you just weren't ready to tell that story at that time. I remember our conversation. I remember after our conversation thinking, I don't think I like told that part of my life well enough. I've been meditating for a long time right so that's why i was surprised because i was like really like i thought i would have pegged you as a guy who's you know all about all about that yeah and i don't use the word meditation i

think that's probably why um i like using the word mindfulness it conjures something up that feels better to me than meditation but dan was always like, so let's get to the meditation part. He got pushed. That's what he's most, for sure, he's most interested in. Okay, so when did the meditation come in? Yeah, I know. Anyway, go ahead. So what was the story?

Okay, so my mother-in-law. What's up, Rita? So we, she's been going back and forth with me for a long time about coming and seeing this flower reader so there's this guy that reads flowers and i'm in college at the time and i'm deep in the science field and is she like a hippie no your parents were kind of hippie parents were yeah and um so my mother-in-law and father-in-law my wife's's parents, obviously, my mother-in-law came from Cuba. They left thinking that Castro was going to be expelled.

So they're kind of the first wave out of Cuba. And then he never left. He wasn't ever kicked out. So they left with a couple hundred bucks in their pocket and came here and figured out life. Pretty rad. So they're Cuban. And then my father-in-law, he came to this country with $20 in his pocket as a 15-year-old, and that's it.

And they cracked the American dream. Two Latins that didn't speak English, and they cracked the American dream and created businesses, and they did wonderfully for themselves, both in lifestyle and financially. thing that you imagine from just a lovable, loving, charismatic, gregarious, fun person to be around, flirting on the edge of just about everything in life and having a good time. And so she says, you've got to come up. You've got to come up and do this flower reading. I'm going to have another party. You are going to love it, Michael. And I said, there's no freaking way that I'm going to like this stuff. and I just kind of fed it back that okay what's he gonna do he's gonna look at me and like read my body language and figure out just the right vague thing to say and then latch on to that vague thing and tell me a story and then I want to

believe him so I nod my head and we keep going in this dance where it you know it's just a voodoo experience you know and so so we end up having to like this throw down argument up in whistler and it was we're on a little family vacation skiing and this throw down argument in a bar in a restaurant bar and she's we are not talking about this again this is the last time we're talking about this until you come up here i don't care what you say you have to experience it in full latin form and so i said fine right so we get back and she throws this candle i'm sorry um flower reading party so long story shorter is that you you pick a flower and you hold it for a little bit of time and like in your imagination or you actually have like out of your yard out of

your yard right pick a flower you drive up and you put it in your lap or hold it while you're driving up and then he's not there yet and so there was like six of us family and friends that arrive and there's a little tray and you put your flower that you've been holding this sounds ridiculous puts a flower on you put a flower on a tray okay and no one knows what flower I had because I came by myself okay and I didn't know what my wife had. I didn't know what anyone had, but you just put the flower and you come in. So mother-in-law didn't know. And certainly this guy didn't know.

So he came in and he says, okay, everybody, let's go have this experience. So he says, this is how it works. And he closes his eyes and he says, oh no, he asked us to close our eyes. And he says, I'm going to close my eyes too. He says, if if you want you can keep them open just to see that I'm not doing anything weird I have no idea whose flower this is whatever whatever and I'm just going to

pick one I'm going to feel it and then I'm going to talk about what I feel and I'm not going to tell you the future but I'm going to tell you what I feel and so I'm like oh here we go I'm doing this just so I can get is he like in robes like

does he have all the costumes or is he just like a dude he's a he's a guy for sure a guy and so um remind me to come back to what a guy is in a minute and so um all right so he and so i close my eyes and i open them i'm like i'm like, I want to see what this guy's about. And at this, I'm deep in science. I'm really, you know, studying some of the great minds and theories. And so I look at him and he's kind of, you know, feeling something. And he picks up mine. Mine was the first one it happened.

He happened to pick up. And so he's looking and his eyes are still closed. I'm sorry, he's feeling and his eyes are still closed. And he says, oh, we have a skeptic in the room. I smell this. Come on. I look over at my mother-in-law, and she's looking at me. Are you the only guy? No, no, no.

There was like three or four of us. One of them was a cousin who was a flat-out struggling with drugs. Nailed him. Nailed him. So anyways, we have a skeptic. And then he says, okay, so this skeptic, I'm telling you, Rich, I started sweating, flat out sweating, because he said, this person, he has an injury. And he has an injury in his neck. And if he is working relentlessly to adjust

this injury, that was that injury i was talking about with like with my c-spine and then he says he's got three gifts now at this point i'm really sweating and i look around and and um the whole family's looking at me his eyes are still closed the whole family's looking at me. Three gifts. Spirit, sport, and the mind. I said, oh my God. He said one day he's going to put all three of these together, but he's still struggling now. I was like, holy.

He said he wasn't going to tell the future, but he basically laid out your fortune right there. Are you thinking like there's a mole in the room? Totally. And so I just want to bust everyone about it. And so I just kept my mouth shut. And so whatever. But he just kept getting people. And I am a skeptic. I still am a skeptic. But something happened.

As a man of science, and you're always going back to the science, I know. For sure. That's your practice. What do you make of that? I don't know. It's not the answer you probably want. I don't know. Can I tell you one more? Yeah. While we're on a roll? And I want to play out this story of what was going on with your neck too. Okay. Yeah, for sure. So here's that. I've had handfuls of these kind of mystic experiences in my life. And that was one of them. I can't explain it. I have no idea to this day. And I totally trust my mother-in-law and everyone in that room they did not set me up in that way okay so what was your interaction with your mother-in-law in the wake of that afterwards yeah yeah she's like so what do you think you know so um we laugh about it now

have you gone back to see the guy or you just got what you needed and that was it yeah does he live around here a little scared I feel like I need to go see him you know what let me find him maybe we could do it together that would be good yeah that was wild so here's another mystic experience and i'm becoming more open to mystic experiences i've spent so much time in the trenches of science and working out um the rigid ways to say something so science creates that rigidity allows you to say something with some clarity, right? And at least it could be wrong, but at least you have a basis of why it might be wrong. And then from that, it feels like I could play on the edges, you know, and that's how I've designed most of, I think, my professional career. That being said, I went down and had,

this is all around this injury. I am so thankful for this injury. So I was in incredible pain. So I drove all the way to San Diego because I met somebody who I believed was, he was a chiropractic, uh, uh, oriental medicine, doc, doctor of oriental medicine and a chiropractic. And it was, it was a surfing injury. You had a pretty serious, uh, like injury to the top of your spine. That right yeah so uh two one two herniations one went out like a normal herniation of a disc and one popped in and that matter was floating around my spinal cord and pushing against my spinal cord so i had incredible nerve kind of deep deep deep pain and the neurologist or the western medicine specialist that you went to see diagnosed you with what like what was the protocol

oh well the protocol was like herniated discs one with an extrusion one with an intrusion and just kind of manage the pain the best you can so there was no surgical procedure that you could we're heading towards it yeah we're heading towards it but i want to do all the conservative things first everything you name, I tried it first. Everything. And there's a good book, Healing Back Pain by John Sarno. I don't know if you've read that. And there's no science to it. If you pick it up, you'd look at it and say like, this sounds crazy. But it was really a pretty good book about the mind and chronic pain. So anyways, I met a man who was flat out a healer. And he wouldn't eat after 6 p.m.

so that when he would work on people in the morning, he would be clean. And his vessel was well dialed in. Like he dedicated his whole life to healing. But he had also studied some science. So I went down and i drove two and a half hours to go meet him for an experience and so he the oriental medicine he was going to do some acupressure and he was also going to use some dry needling so we're talking oh and he also has

a master's degree in psych master's degree in psychology. So he understands good science. You guys have a language commonality. It's beautiful. Yeah, beautiful man. What's up, Roy? And so he gets me on the table, and he starts just kind of doing some acupressure, moving some blood around and whatever, whatever. And we're talking, and we're having a good good conversation and long story of this short is that he says okay so i'm going to put some needles in you first time i've had acupuncture and he puts one needle small little needle in between my toes my big toe on each foot and he goes oh when he put him in that's all he said i said what's that anxious mind right what's that

and he says um your body's just ready for this. And I'm going, oh, geez, he's just doing some psychobabble priming. Like, come on, doc. And so anyway, so he puts them in and then he puts them in between my thumb and my first finger, like the meat of your hand. And they had a little pain. There was a little ache in that. And he put a couple on my perineals, like on the side of my calf muscle, right? And I think he put one on the top of my head and maybe a forehead. And so as he put the last one in, he says, I'm going to be outside. And if you need anything, just let me know. But just appreciate the experience. So as he's walking out the door, I had this, I had this flood. I can't, there's no other way for me to describe this, but I had this opening and literally opening. And it felt like the top of my head, um, above my head,

this opening of pure emotion that was coming and the pure emotion. I could, I could turn it off or let it flow. There was an awareness. I could do either one of those. And I knew it was going to be uncontrollable. And it was one of two things, uncontrollable laughter or uncontrollable tears. It's going to be one of those two. Those things are pretty close to each other, though, right? I guess so. For me, they were like, it was on. And I think prior to that, much of my life, I didn't know that there was such this

expansive, like large amount of emotion that could flood in such a way. And so I said, shit, I came for healing. And so I just let it happen. That this is when I talk about, I think you and I've talked about this, like it starts with the decision and then the decision, part of the decision is to go for it. And then the other part of the decision is to stay on the razor's edge as long as you can. Love is the razor's edge.

Joy is the razor's edge. So is hard work. So is fighting. You know, there's razor's edge in not just like working hard. So this was a razor's edge. I opened it up and I felt all of it. And it was uncontrollable laughter. And I couldn't pick between the two.

It was a roll of the dice. And I was going to go either way for both of them. And it was uncontrollable laughter. And I couldn't pick between the two. It was a roll of the dice. And I was going to go either way for both of them. And it was uncontrollable laughter. And I started with this little giggle. And then this little giggle started and it built and it built. And I was like, I'm out of control. He's like, look at that. Wait, let it go. And stop talking. Like, just feel it. And it's bigger and it's bigger. And I'm laughing and I'm on the table. I can't stop laughing. And I'm now like, I'm freaking myself out. And I call Roy, you'm on the table and I can't stop laughing. And now I'm freaking myself out. And I call Roy. You know, Doc! Doc!

And he comes running in because he hears me laughing uncontrollably. So he gives you this treatment and then he leaves the room and you're just lying on the table or something? As he's walking out, I felt that opening. So I don't know what to make of it. And he came in and he like, he grounded me. He touched me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This happens all the time.

Yeah, right. And so he grounded me, touched me. And he said, he said, good job. He said, how you doing? And so was that like a, I would imagine that was emotionally cathartic. I don't know what it was, but I just laid there. You know, I do know what it was. It was an incredible, cathartic meaning release it was a radical release but it was something bigger than just a release

I became more I became now aware of something a larger capacity I became aware of that decision making I became better able to go deep with emotion and And so, yeah, it was really, really good for me. It's interesting because as somebody whose profession is all about the mind and the power of the mind and the elasticity of the mind and how to control and channel mental powers. Whatever those are. Yeah, exactly. And rooting that in science,

there's still so much we don't understand about that, about consciousness. And I think it's cool to leave room for that wonder. And I think with that comes a little humility. Because I think when people are like, well, this is the way it is, you know, and we understand everything. It's like, clearly we don't. You know what I mean?

And if you can't recognize that, you're pretty myopic. Like, we're only just beginning to understand certain things about the human body in general. And the brain is like, you know, that's like the Big Bang. Yeah, those 3.3 pounds are like, that's like the big bang like those three three point three pounds are like that's like and so i think it's cool to be able to say yeah we don't understand everything and i don't know what that means but i can appreciate it and i know in my own experience that it was real that doesn't mean that there's some double blind you know study that controls for all the multivariate factors or whatever you know whatever language that you guys speak in science but to me it was real and I can file that away

and I can not only remember that but use that in my work thousand percent and I think that for all of us that want to grow we have to put ourselves on the edge and you know sometimes that feels like we need to just hold on to the side of the cliff, just dig our nails into it and hold on. And sometimes it's a simple decision. And sometimes it's just holding an eye gaze longer. And there's so many ways that we don't know how growth really takes place. And so, yeah, I just think being able to play on the edges is wonderful. And if you don't have something to anchor to, you don't know what an edge is. So doing that first work of building the base and having an anchor, a framework, a psychological framework that I talk about a lot, it's not easy to build.

And somebody's building it for you if you're not building it yourself. And just to play the story out, ultimately ultimately you end up healing this injury in your neck and you attribute a great deal of that to this consistent meditation practice, this healing technique of visualizing yourself, like you're sort of your, your body parts sort of reassembling in a healthy way. Right. Can you talk about that a little bit?

Yeah, sure. Here we go. Not great science. Right. And so this is the the mad you can talk about science with other people yeah right not here we're going down like the spiritual black hole yeah um yeah so i think okay so right now your body my body we're both trying to heal our bodies are trying to heal and because all day long we're stressing our body the recovery part compromised, especially if you've had one or two or 12 glasses of wine, especially if you think about things that are anxious and produce cortisol or are sad and produce cortisol. And especially if we're not using our mind optimally or we're not sleeping optimally and we're working really hard welcome to just about everyone we know so or even if you're exercising you're

creating all those free radicals that's its own form of stress or you know breathing air that's not clean like all of these things contribute to that that's right and eating and eating terrible food that's right so our body so the point i think point I think that I want to set up is that our body is trying to repair and recover, and we're not helping it well. And from all those external factors and also internal thinking factors. And so if it's trying to recover, how can I best use and apply concentration and focused energy? When I say energy, I don't mean woo-woo, like focusing my concentration to accelerate the biological structures to do what they're trying to do

better. Okay. If that's possible, who am I to know? And so that's where the idea comes from, is that can you focus well enough to quiet your body down and really direct your attention to seeing and feeling a particular structure that's already part of you doing it better? What am I talking about? Oxygen and blood flow and all the nutrients and neurochemicals that are working to be able to repair, they're already happening right now in our body. So with some basic understandings of some structure and like what ligaments look like, or in my case, what discs look like and the spinal column and spinal cord and all the right nutrients that are being carried

by blood, how to accelerate that. That's all I did. So I just quiet down my body so that I can have clear pictures and hold that image as long as I possibly can of seeing my body repair and literally seeing the image. But very specifically, like seeing these little parts of your spine rearranging around your spinal cord in a healthy way. That's exactly it. Right. Yeah.

So seeing the facet the, um, facet joint, like moving more clearly, uh, clearing out the, the, the opening. So the nerve could fit just a little bit better. Seeing that intrusion, that, uh, extrusion and intrusion, um, extrusion, sorry, uh, sticking to the bone structure instead of floating on the spinal cord. And it's relentless. It was relentless. And so you did that. it was like 17 minutes every evening yeah my target was 20 but and very rarely could i get to 20 at that time so and this went on for how long did you practice this it was about 31 days to be exact not very long so there's lots of room like in the science say, well, there's lots that could have happened.

Maybe it already was healed. Maybe this is just a funny little story that you feel good about yourself, Mike, or whatever. There's lots of ways to think about it. Dismissing it is easy. I think so. And either way, the idea that our body's trying to heal. And if we can quiet our system down, our body, and we can focus our mind, we can do some stuff. I don't think that that's wild. I think it's wild, though, to be able to quiet your body down and have that much focus and

concentration. And now stitch this back to our early part of our conversation today is that I was in pain. So I was ready to do whatever it would take, you know, and I wanted to try everything before surgery. So when we love people, we'll do whatever it takes. Right. There's so much I want to get into with this. This is like super amazing. Um, but to kind of just, you know, put an end cap on the story, ultimately you went back for a, for an MRI and everything looked good. Right? It was all like sort of resolved. And you asked the doctor, like, hey, well, you know, you told me like I was going to need surgery. Now look at it.

Like, how do you think this happened? Instead of saying, here's what I did and I healed myself, you were asking him, right? Well, the film just came up and he said, well, huh, how do you feel? I said, okay. Now, mind you, this will tell you about me, is that as an N of one, a number of one, is that when I saw the film the first time and I saw this gnarly thing pushing against my spine, I got worse. So that's just, that was an anxious mind. And I saw it. I saw the thing that was broken.

Like with my eyes, I saw it. saw the thing that was broken i saw like with my eyes i saw it so now i had this image to attach to it was the worst thing i could have done i bet you i bet you if i didn't see it and i didn't have a white coat you know somebody like that was supposed to really take care of me but was really scaring me um i bet i wouldn't my body would have eventually kind of figured this thing out but But I know I made it worse. I know I did. Looking back, I have such empathy for people, me included, when we scare ourselves and anxiety and thoughts that are scary

because it was gnarly. So we popped the MRI up, and I said, what do you see? Or no, he says says how do you feel and I said well okay you know it's not it wasn't burning as bad but it was still there it's not like all the pain went away and um he said you know funny thing is that looks like your extrusion is gone I said I didn't want to give him away I'd give anything away and I didn't want to sound like a quack and I said well how do you make sense of that? He says, well, sometimes the body just eats them up,

like the gas and stuff. Your body just eats it up. And sometimes they move. And now that really started to freak me out. Could it move down? But I knew. I knew it didn't move. And he said, no, we would see it in the film.

We got enough vertebrae that we'd see it. It doesn't move like swimming. It doesn't swim up and down your spine. Down to the base of your spine. Come gervais you know and so um he says no right where it was it looks like there's a little calcium buildup but that looks like it's just kind of gone right um you said earlier uh that you didn't think it was crazy that this idea that you know we have some domain some power some control some control over the trajectory of our health and our lives through the power of our mind. And, of course, look at people that are excelling at life. They have a certain worldview or perspective of themselves that is probably self-assured, confident, not without fear, but maybe a little healthier than somebody who's struggling.

So you don't need to look any further than that to understand how powerful it is. But I think it's interesting that you took it upon yourself to try to heal yourself. I mean, most people would have just said, okay, doc, like, you know, cut me open and fix it or whatever. Well, okay. So this is kind of go on this journey. Okay. This is really important. I think for the nuance of the story is that i wanted i didn't know this until with until hindsight i wanted other people to heal me i did i was afraid of surgery because it like i was 20 some years old and the surgery like athletes didn't do well with the surgery that i knew and so i was afraid of it i wasn't ready for that but i wanted boy when someone would do soft tissue work on me. Somebody else to do it for you.

Ice, heat, stim, acupressure, acupuncture, whatever, chiro, everything. Like I just wanted, I, so that was, I exhausted, I'm sure, people, you know, not knowing better. Because I was hurting. And so, okay, so then I said, well, I got to do my own work now. But I did not do it without a spiritual framework. So part of the early work that I didn't talk about on healing meditation or healing mindfulness is that I would just get really spiritually connected. And so there's lots of ways that somebody could do that.

For me, it happened to be, because I believe that the Trinity is beautiful, beautiful story, and I'm really open to all the world religions of what they teach. And the Trinity is just a beautiful capture of what's true, beautiful, and good to me. And so, I had this image that I would conjure up, and I would just be like that flood that I was talking about earlier. I had that same opening, and I would connect to a spiritual groundedness or a spiritual sense. So it sounds wacky, but I didn't do it by myself. Right.

But you were taking, it was when you decided to take ownership of it. A thousand percent, yeah. And not advocate that to all of these other people. Yeah. You know, my wife has a really similar story. And that was very influential to me because it occurred before kind of my transformation. Ironically, it also occurred in the neck and around the vertebrae. For you or for her?

For her, yeah. She developed a cyst on her neck. It was diagnosed as a thyroglossal duct cyst, which I guess is rare in adults. It occurs in very young, like infants, I suppose, is what I understand. And she was told that, you know, it swelled to the size of a golf ball. So it was very pronounced and, you know, embarrassing for a woman to walk around. And the doctor said, you know, you don't have to panic. It's not like a malignant cancerous tumor, but it's also not going to go away on its own. Like we're going to have to cut it out.

And it was attached to, I don't know which vertebrae, but you know, it was tricky. It was a tricky surgery. There were some nerves around it that made it semi-complicated. And she had undergone a botched tonsillectomy some years prior that left her bedridden, you know, a simple procedure that went awry. So she was like, I'm not, I don't want to, I'm not going to do that again. And she went on this journey of trying to figure out how to heal herself. And that led her through a variety of modalities, but ultimately to the counsel of an Ayurvedic doctor. And Ayurveda is all about balancing your energy systems and all of that to allow the body to heal itself. And he put her on a protocol that was essentially plant-based diet,

reduction in stress, no work after 5 o'clock, sleep, all these sorts of things that are obviously you need to do to be healthy, and all these crazy herbs that made her house smell like a sewage depot. She was rubbing stuff on her neck and putting this Band-Aid on it and brewing these strange witch's know, witches brew teas and like, and, you know, I'm still like a lawyer, like I'm all up in my head, you know, but I like being married and it's like, you got to support your spouse. So I was like, I wasn't crazy about this, but I was like, all right, well, you know, I'll let her play this out and we'll see where it goes.

And it also involved deep spiritual connection, meditation, visualization of being a healed person. And it didn't happen in 30 days. It took about nine months. But it went away. And it never came back. And people ask her, like, well, did you ever go back to those doctors and ask them, like, you know, how could this happen? You told me this could never happen. She's like, no, because they'll kind of say what your guys, you know, they'll say, well, this happens sometimes or, you know,

whatever comports with that worldview, because she was doing some pretty woo-woo stuff. And I don't know what that means. But what I extract from that is that sense of humility and wonder that we are more powerful than we allow ourselves to believe right that that the mind when channeled properly and when the spirit is in alignment and we can kind of marshal these these you know amorphous invisible resources to our own benefit that we can do things that our culture you know doesn't really focus on as being real things you know what i mean i ultimately just look if you if you eat the right foods and you treat your body right perhaps you're able to heal yourself in a way that maybe you wouldn't imagine or your body's already trying to do it it's trying to do it help that

we don't we don't i don't know i don't know if anyone knows like how even this body even happened like there's that's a still wild ass guess how this thing even like really works so that's pretty phenomenal in and of itself and you know then the scientists in in for me for probably for you too would be like placebo just a placebo effect and as a scientist who's had these experiences how do you reconcile that maybe it's a placebo but then what is a placebo you think it's going to work so it works right it's crazy cares yeah but isn't that interesting like if you think it's going to work that's what a placebo is you give people somebody a sugar pill that's something and a real medicine and you say this is going to change you and then it does change them it changes something happens

that is crazy there's also a nocebo that we don't talk about enough. So there's placebo, introducing a thought to impact a result that's not founded in anything. And then nocebo is when you tell somebody that you're going to do this and it's not going to work. And sure enough, more often than not, that plays true as well. That's a cool concept, nocebo. We don't talk about it enough, though. Right, right, right. All right. It's a cool concept.

No SIBO. We don't talk about it enough, though. Right, right, right. All right. So, you know, a lot of people, not everyone who listens to this podcast, contrary to popular opinion, is an elite athlete at the Olympics. You know, a lot of people are just trying to, you know, to coin Dan Harris's phrase, be 10% happier. Like, how can they be more productive? How can they be more mindful? percent happier like how can they be more productive how can they be more mindful you know they're not necessarily looking to master every aspect of their life but to perhaps bring

a little bit more purpose and vitality and health and satisfaction into their you know daily existence so you know what is your kind of message to the, to that person? Well, I think that mastery is, um, it feels like it's really for the rare elite, which is wrong mastery of self mastery of craft. So I think that How do you define mastery? Maybe we should start there. Yeah. I'm still working it out. You know, um, I'll, I'll tell you where I am with it now, mastery of craft so i think how do you define mastery maybe we should start there yeah i'm still working it out you know um i'll tell you where i am with it now but i'm still i'm still working this thing out i want to talk about there's so many variables in my head that that flood when we talk about it but i really do think it's an understanding of the nuances better than you did before. And mastery is playing in the nuances

in a way that is exceptional. And the nuances really like in, in for thinking, the nuances of thinking are the space between thoughts and the space between words and the space, like that nuanced place inside is really beautiful and rare. And for a basketball player or a chef or somebody, it's like playing with ingredients or playing with time and temperatures in such a way that it is exceptional and it's beautiful and it's amazing and it's hard to reproduce. So it's the nuances that I'm most interested in right now. that I'm most interested in right now. So anyways, I don't want to get too lost on that because I want to talk about this concept

that I think mastery is available for all of us, especially the journey of self-discovery. And that's really what mastery of self is about. This journey of self-discovery that is available for everybody. Some people use a craft to better understand themselves and to better understand people in general, the craft of sport or music or whatever business that craft is really just as really rich experience to learn more about who you are.

Or an external manifestation of wherever you are in your journey, right? So whether you're, you know, standing on the starting blocks at the Olympics or a CEO or suffering through a job that you hate in a cubicle, we're all on that journey of self-discovery, whether we're consciously pursuing it or not. I 100% agree with that idea. Self-discovery is the process of becoming masterful of your experience in life. But you need to have some basic commands of some things to do mastery right. And so it's not for the elite. This is for all of us. And this is stuff that 5,000 years ago people were talking about.

This is no different than the ancient thoughts from great philosophers. What is the meaning of life? What are we doing, guys guys what are we doing here and answering that fundamental question i think is really important for every person what are you doing and if you have an afterlife cool if you don't okay what are you doing here in physical form while we're together and being why are you doing it well yeah so all of that all of that, you know, and getting really clear. It's hard to answer that now. And then there's the other question, one of the most fundamental questions is, who am I?

So answering that stuff and using your daily experiences and the awareness that you can bring to those daily experiences, which requires training. Awareness requires training. those daily experiences, which requires training. Awareness requires training. Unless you're two, or before, where it's just you're purely aware of everything all day long. That for adults, we need to train our mind to be aware because busyness and distraction are real. So I think that for all of us, understanding how the mind works better, there's only three things as humans we can train. You can train your body, your craft, and your mind. There might be an asterisk that you can train your spirit.

I'm not willing to put that in right now. But if you can train your mind, and I bet most of your listeners have trained their mind in some kind of way, because that's why they're listening to you. have trained their mind in some kind of way because that's why they're listening to you but doing a formal structured investment in training one's own mind is the return on investment is wild right and so let's say somebody's listening and they're like i want to make that commitment but you know i'm not going to be able to be a client of of mike sure you know yeah um and i don't even know if there's somebody who does what you do where they live and beyond listening to your podcast and doing their own sort of self-styled exploration, like what is the starting point for that person? What are the resources? What are the practices? What are the books that could provide a launchpad to embarking somebody on that journey?

20, 30 years ago, the field of psychology was burdened by secrecy and burdened by the study of dysfunction. So if you're using a psychologist to get better, it meant that you're not well. The field has shifted in radical ways. And it's like now we get to stand on the shoulders of giants that have studied the disease of the mind for a long time. And I don't even like the word disease of the mind, but the parts of the mind that were not structured and working optimally for people. And so right now, it's a really exciting time because you can also go those very smart people that are highly trained that have a PhD in advanced degree or master's degree in the science and the art of how the mind works optimally,

there's lots of them. And there's more people that are studying the dysfunction of the mind in the field of psychology. But in wherever local area that you are, if there's somebody that understands performance or sports psychology, and you're not an athlete, no problem. They understand how the mind works. It's just that athletes are willing to pay for it more than most people at the outset. It's not happening like that anymore. So sport and performance psychology is a very nuanced and it requires real training. And if I would suggest that if you want to understand how the mind works, go to somebody that studied it and lived it at the highest level. And there's people in your neighborhood for sure that have done that.

Are there online resources where you can help find those people? American Psychological Association Division 47 is a great resource. And so APA. Division 47? That's right. Is that the performance division? That's right.

Sport performance. Deep underground, like the subterranean. That's exactly right. The benefits of psychology know the subterranean that's exactly right benefits of psychology yeah and so that's that's where i would start and i even start with like people that are really switched on um in your local community and you know connecting with people that they have already tested um even if they don't they're not part of division 47 but they have um you know a solid foundation in psychology and understand it like it's a it's an exciting time right now flat out it's got to be really gratifying for you as

somebody who's been in this game for for quite some time to see it like exploding and flourishing to the extent that it is right now to to be uh you know in a culture we're talking about mindfulness and like you know flow states and and the relationship of psychology to athletic performance um is now like it's totally fine to talk about that you're not like a weirdo or some outlier you know it's also because of people like you rich that went through some heavy stuff got training got your mind right understood the baseline of like how your mind works and then you fueled it and have talked about it, you know? So yeah, it is a really exciting time. I don't know if it's gratifying, but it's really exciting to see the amount of

lift that's taking place for people in becoming more of who they want to become and having a deeper meaning in life and richer in richer relationships and output is through the roof of things that they never thought was possible and like yes all of that is possible and it does start with this kind of i don't know this trite thought like invest in yourself first but what are you investing in your mind like jesus like i don't know who trained you in your mind like before you did some formal work it was was your mom, your dad, your coach. Right, whatever your environment dictated. There was no conscious choosing of that.

It was just whatever you were exposed to. You can totally rewrite the story once you understand the alphabet. Right, and I feel like we're really just at the very beginning of this. I think so, too. I've said this before. Maybe I even talked to you about it. But look, the difference between the guy who's you know hearing the national anthem and standing on top of the podium in rio having a

medal put around his neck and the guy who's at home watching it on tv that ain't much it really is the slightest of advantage and those guys are all incredibly talented women uh you know he's and she's uh they're all training to their maximum physical capacity. So what's the difference? You know, it's the mental game. And to overlook that is insane. If you're if you're trying to play at that level, right? And then and then and bring it all the way for the rest of us, too, is that, man, I don't know, I like I just want to know that i matter i want to know that i can love and play and have a good time in life and i'm doing good and i'm connected to my unique journey

i think all of us want that and so to do that better why not why not be more present right and yet it goes back to that pain thing like if you've suffered some kind of pain it's easier to jump on that bandwagon. It's harder. And I think it's harder for younger people, younger athletes. I can't remember whether I talked about this with you before,

but I went out to the Olympic Training Center and they have like meditation pods and mindfulness. There's a mindfulness, like sort of, I don't know if you'd call it a center, but like a physical space in Colorado Springs at the training

center but people aren't really using it yet you know what I mean like so there's still plenty of work to be done lots of I think it's harder to convince an 18 year old that this is something they need than somebody who's going into their fourth Olympics and knows the game and is you know needs that extra appreciates um what that extra edge can avail them yeah i think that the it's a rising tide right now it's a real rising tide we don't know how far it's going to go but i think that that um there'll be a pendulum swing at some point about something you know but it's a rising tide right now for interest and i think it's going to rise for a while yeah investing in the mind and it's not it it's not complicated it's a rising tide right now for interest and i think it's going to rise for a while yeah investing in the mind and it's not it's not complicated it's literally not complicated it's just invisible and it's it if you're guided by somebody that understands the the good science it's not hard

but to do it on your own feels just really overwhelming yeah like which book do i read i was gonna say like until you write your book what is what is like a book that somebody could pick up there's loads of good books and that you know like this is part of my challenge is that that everything's already been said like in really beautiful ways in the world of of poetry and philosophy and writings and so um i want to say that um reading a book is cool working with somebody that understands the science and the art and that can customize the hundreds of years of good science for you, way better accelerant. Right, because a book might just reinforce the idea that you can do it by yourself. And what most of us do, yes, when most of us read a book, we're looking for the thing that we can do easily. But maybe that's not the thing we need. How dare how dare you yeah i know so um i don't know what's a good book that comes to mind

right now for me um man's search for meaning victor frankl i think the first uh the first half of that book yeah it's like it's a foundation book um tao te ching is like, you know, Bailao Tzu is one of the kind of original, deep, deep mystic thinkings from Taoism. Certainly any spiritual text, the Bible, the Koran, you know, like... Bhagavad Gita? Yeah, it's hard. Yeah, well, that's a commitment.

Yeah, it's hard. I caught myself because that's a commitment. Yeah, it's hard. I caught myself because it's tough. Tao Te Ching is hard, too. But the Bhagavad Gita is stories, though. You can immerse yourself in the stories. Yeah, those are wonderful. So I think all of those spiritual texts, I think, are important. Man's Search for Meaning, wonderful.

If you want to light read, I think the classics like The Alchemist and Way of the Champion. Not Way of the Champion. That's a good book. Way of a Peaceful Warrior. Way of the Peaceful Warrior. Those are all kind of iconic, classic, easy, simple little nugget, digestible reads. But anything about Jon Kabat-Zinn? I think he's really on it for mindfulness.

I've never read. Oh. Full Catastrophe Living was original. He's kind of the science, the first scientist to come to mindfulness in the States. So anything by him is rad. And, you know, I don't know, sometimes books choose you. So, yeah. Cool, man. I think we did it. Thank you, brother. How do you feel? Awesome. I love having conversations with you. It's so great, man. We should do this all the time.

Yeah. As I was sharing some of the stories, I had this other edit mind going like, does anyone care? It's a really bizarre story. What are we talking about? It's good, man. You talked about a few things that you haven't talked about before, I feel like, I hope. It's good, man.

You talked about a few things that you haven't talked about before, I feel like, I hope. And, you know, listen, if this is new to you, go back and listen to our other one because then you get the whole sort of full picture of your life and all that.

And there were so many things we actually didn't even get into. Like, all right, like, am I going to end this without asking you at least one question about the guy who jumped out of a plane without a parachute? Oh, yeah.

Luke. Because I know you've worked with him and you've tweeted about it and there's been newspaper art there's articles about it that acknowledges that you were involved and you probably can't talk about anything specific about that but that is just insane like that was just the most amazing thing to watch and i cannot imagine the mindset that you would have to be in to, to, to accomplish that. Yeah. Luke Akins jumped out of a plane at 25,000 feet, which requires oxygen. And he landed in a series of nets that he designed, you know, that was X stories tall. And it was, um, I said to my

wife, uh, the night before it happened, I said, you know, tomorrow our lives will be fundamentally different. And, you know, tomorrow our lives will be fundamentally different. And, you know, she's like nodding, like, yeah. Yeah. It's an either or. Yeah. Either he lands or he doesn't. Either he survives or he doesn't. There's no kind of real space in between here. And his life is fundamentally different. And it was just an honor to be part of the project. And it was a beautiful demonstration of a complete command of craft and a complete command of mind to be able to execute when the stakes are as high as they get they don't get any higher yeah for your own life and he has a and his three-year-old son and his beautiful wife monica and so like i'm just honored to be part of that project.

And it scared the you-know-what out of me. And it was wonderful. And he's epic at it. And we need people like Luke to remind us of what the frontier is, to remind us of what true is. And he did it. He really did. I mean, after Felix Baumgartner, I wasn't sure it could get any crazier. But that's pretty, that is about as out there as it's going to come, you know, but the day's going to come. I mean, as you continue to push that envelope out, the day's going to come where

the guy doesn't serve, you know, whoever is doing whatever is not going to make it. I know. Yeah. I know that. And the running joke amongst my friends is Mike, you know, maybe you shouldn't be doing anything in the air any time recent. You know, it's because those are really heavy, heavy experiences that fortunately went well. And you see it with the wingsuit guys and sponsors pulling out of getting behind those athletes. And as the pressure ramps up, you've got to GoPro everything and everything's got to be on Instagram. And what's your YouTube channel look like? Like those externalities start to creep in and inform decisions in an unhealthy way.

I think it really warps. Yeah. It really warps decision-making. Yeah. Yeah. We could have a whole other podcast about that. Anyway, yeah, we got to, we got to lock it down. Do you have anything exciting coming up?

Are you like going out and doing public speaking? What's going on with win forever? Yeah. So, um, coach Carol and I partnered, created a joint venture for a business together. Um, we're right in the middle of, um, changing the name. Um, so we're going through that process right now. Why? That's such a cool name. I love that. You love it. Yeah. So we're trying to map what we've created together and really kind of capture something. And so it's great and I'm so like literally alive about the process the business path that we've created with some beautiful partners to be able to hopefully here's a crazy number but you know I'm going to back myself into a corner at some kind

of way 1.5 billion people we want to impact and that's a big big big big number why 1.5 because everybody's got five friends and then so that's 7 billion and so if we could impact 1.5 maybe we need half that really but that in you know if we could help here's the mission 1.5 billion people to help them increase the frequency of them being fully present in their lives and so if they can increase the frequency then we're living in access of what is true, beautiful, and good. And people are able to be more connected to what is authentically meant on their life journey. So that's a mouthful, I know, but that's what we're doing. We've got a plan. It's really exciting of how it could go. And so that's how we're going to hopefully take

from the elite and the mountaintop of spiritual and the elite of performers in all different businesses and sports and provide some access for all the rest of us. I love it. That's a beautiful, laudable goal, but you're not messing around. No, we're not. You're going big, man. We got some folks that have really forced us to think that way. That's interesting. I will infer between the to think that way so that's that's interesting yeah read i will infer between the lines on that but yeah that's pretty cool and i look forward to hearing more about that one yeah we'd love to get you involved in some kind of way too rich for sure

whatever you need yeah whatever you need cool all right so uh first off definitely check out finding mastery podcast on itunes and then the other one that kind of spin off is moments in mastery what's it called minutes on minutes on mastery which is just kind of short cuts from the interviews if you're time crunched uh finding mastery.net at michael gervais on twitter and instagram too is it the same on instagram uh yeah it's both yeah good job yeah so you're easy to find yeah thank you and uh keep rocking man i love it it's beautiful this job. So you're easy to find. Yeah, thank you. And keep rocking, man. I love it. It's beautiful, this journey that you're on, and I can't wait to see where you take it.

So again, I can't leave without thanking you for breathing life into me wanting to do this. So again, sincere thanks, and appreciative of all that you've done for all of us. My pleasure, man. Thank you. Peace. Plants.

All right, we did it. What'd you guys think? Pretty amazing, right? Michael always blows my hair back and gives me so many things to ponder and consider and think about when it comes to self-mastery, the main subject of today's conversation. Of course, check out his Finding Mastery podcast and to delve deeper into all things Michael Gervais. Check out the show notes on the episode page at richworld.com. Finding Mastery podcast and to delve deeper into all things Michael Gervais, check out the show notes on the episode page at richworld.com. We've got tons of links and resources to take your edification and your infotainment beyond the earbuds. As always, I appreciate you guys sharing the show with your friends,

your coworkers, your family members around the water cooler. Thank you so much. If you haven't done so already, please take a moment to leave us a short review on iTunes. We really appreciate that. And go ahead and click that subscribe button on iTunes if you haven't already. Mad love and big shout out to everybody who has made a practice of using the Amazon banner ad at richroll.com for all your Amazon purchases. That really does help us out tremendously. So thank you so much for that. You can find that banner ad right on any episode page on my website.

And if you're inspired to support the mission even further, we have a Patreon, and you can find the banner for that right where you find the Amazon banner. If you guys want to hear from me via email, I have a free short weekly blast that I send out called Roll Call. It goes out every Thursday. And basically, I just share a few tips, some tools, some resources, documentaries, books that I'm enjoying, articles that I've read, things like that, that I have found interesting and just feel like I wanted to share them. That's it. No spam. Again, it's totally free. And you can subscribe to that also on my website, richroll.com. Plenty of places where you can add your email address. And for all your Plant Power merch and swag needs, go to richroll.com. I got signed copies

of Finding Ultra, signed copies of Plant Power Way. We got t-shirts, we got tech tees, all kinds of good stuff. I want to thank everybody who helped put on today's show. Jason Camiolo for audio engineering and production. Also, Sean Patterson for all of his graphics wizardry. And Chris Swan for additional production assistance. And Chris does a lot of heavy lifting and legwork around putting together and compiling each week's resources, the show notes. So thanks, Chris, for that.

And theme music, as always, by Annalima. Thanks for the love, you guys. And I want to leave you with a final question for the three people that are still listening at this point. A big portion of today's conversation obviously pivoted around self-mastery. And self-mastery requires upfront. It requires self-understanding, self-knowledge, an understanding of one's strengths, an understanding of one's limiters, weaknesses,

and the patterns that hold us back. So my question to you is, what is limiting you from self-mastery? What habit or practice or behavior do you continue to perpetuate that is at odds with your goals and who you wanna be and your best, most authentic self?

And the way out of that, the way through that, I think, it always begins with getting out pen and paper. Get out that journal, start writing it down, and then begin to map your way out. Hatch a plan to eradicate, abandon, give up, or transcend that limiter by replacing it with a new habit, a new pattern, or a behavior that is consistent with the person that you'd like to look at in the mirror every morning. I can't do this for you. I can provide

the information, the understanding, the knowledge through these podcasts and through all the writing that I do, but the action is up to you. So are you going to take that action? And the final question I'll leave you with is, what do you have to lose? See you soon. Peace. Plants. Thank you.