The Rich Roll Podcast - Drew Sams On Living A Curious Life of Wonder

Episode Date: September 4, 2017

I don't consider myself religious. But I am spiritually curious; deeply interested in faith. From Sikh kundalini master Guru Singh and Buddhist monk / tea master WuDe to iconoclast Christian pastor Rob Bell, the exploration of faith in its varying incarnations has been a fascinating, recurring theme of this show. Today, I continue the tradition with Dr. Drew Sams, senior pastor and head of staff at Bel Air Presbyterian Church in Los Angeles. Hardly conventional, Drew is many things. Life-long surfer. Avid ultra-runner. Passionate environmentalist. Devoted family man deeply interested in social justice, nutrition, and wellness. And a progressive doctor of divinity with a take on the Christian faith that is inspiring audiences in Los Angeles and across the world. I think Jesus was an extraordinary guy. But I freely admit that conversations on the subject of organized religion can leave me queasy. Perhaps it's my personal baggage. I don't know. But I do know I really enjoyed this particular exchange — grounded and relatable, Drew made it fun. Today I unpack this pastor's personal journey to faith. It's a conversation about Drew's evolving perspective on God and Christianity. It's about the distinction between literal, allegorical and personal interpretations of the Bible. It's about the relationship between faith, consumerism and environmentalism. It’s a conversation about masculinity — cultural ideation around what a man “should be” versus the strength that can be mined through compassion & emotional vulnerability. But mostly it’s an engaging exchange about our collective moral responsibility to ourselves, our fellow humans, and the planet at large. Drew was great. So let's talk to a pastor! Peace + Plants, Rich

When my son was born, and I'll never forget the first time that I held him, I was immediately filled with love. Immediately this being, my son, filled me with so much pleasure. And I was just so overwhelmed in that moment. And all of a sudden, something just unlocked in my brain. And I began to realize, he's actually never done anything to make me proud of him. He didn't get the grades to make me proud of him. He hasn't said the right thing to make me proud of him. I just, I love him because I love him. And in that moment, it was like a shift

happened in how I could relate to God as father and all those concepts of pleasing God. Even as I dug into the original language in the Hebrew and the Greek language, it's actually more of a be God's pleasure. And it's less of what I need to do, but to simply receive this thing that I don't have to earn. I don't have to somehow strive for. That's Drew Sams, this week on The Rich Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast.

Hey everybody, how you guys doing? My name is Rich Roll. I'm your host. Welcome or welcome back to my podcast, the show where each week I go deep, I get intimate, I go long form with some of the most inspiring thought leaders and positive change makers to my podcast, the show where each week I go deep, I get intimate, I go long form with some of the most inspiring thought leaders and positive change makers all across the globe. People across all categories of health and wellness, fitness, nutrition, medicine, entrepreneurship, social activism, music, entertainment, and in the case of today's guest, faith. Today I sit down with Pastor Drew Sams and it went great. I think it was great. No, it was good. It was really, really good. Here's the thing. Although I consider myself spiritual

in a non-denominational sense, I wouldn't characterize myself as particularly religious, but I am interested in faith. And that is a theme that we have explored at length on this show in its many different forms through many different guests. We've talked about Buddhism and Hinduism and even more esoteric traditions with Julie. And I did have Pastor Rob Bell on to talk about his Christian faith, and that was great. I love that guy. It was such a cool conversation. Trying to get him back on the show soon, as a matter of fact, again.

But I didn't know about Drew Sams until I got an interesting email from my friend Wally. Wally is a lifelong Muslim who I met through our mutual friend John Sally. And Wally started attending Drew's sermons, his congregation out here in LA at the Bel Air Presbyterian Church. And Drew made quite the impact on Wally. So I started to look into him a bit. And it was clear that this guy was not your ordinary pastor. In addition to being an ultra runner, you can follow him on Strava, an environmentalist and someone deeply interested in health and nutrition and social justice. He's a guy that holds a unique and interesting and progressive perspective on the Christian faith and its traditions that really seems to be connecting with a lot of folks out here in Los Angeles,

including some good friends of mine that I've since discovered attend his church. And I thought, yeah, this would make for a cool conversation. And a cool conversation it is. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well

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To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place

and the right level of care, especially because unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem. A problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen,

or battling addiction yourself, I feel you. I empathize with you. to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey.

When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. Okay, Drew Sams. So this is a conversation about a bunch of stuff that, I don't know, admittedly might make a few of you a little uncomfortable. Or maybe it's just me. I don't know.

I just have a lot of baggage around religion. Perhaps you don't, which is great. Because we're going to hash it out on everything from God to Jesus to faith to Christianity to the Bible. Literal versus allegorical versus personal interpretations of all of this. We talk veganism and how it relates to the Bible. Anyway, all stuff I'm hardly an expert in, but I'm really intrigued by Drew's perspective on it. We also get into the environment, our cultural hyper-consumerism and materialism. It's a conversation about moral responsibility to ourselves, to our fellow human, to the planet and the animals.

And it's a conversation about masculinity, how we define masculinity, cultural ideation around what a man should be versus the strength that can be mined in compassion and emotional vulnerability. Drew was great. This was super fun. It's informal. It's jocular and definitely enlightening. So let's talk to a pastor. Let's talk to Pastor Drew. Enjoy. All right, Drew Sims, thanks for coming all the way out to record this in the container. It's super great to meet you. We're going to talk about God. We're going to talk about faith. We're going to talk about Jesus, Christianity. What else are we going to talk about?

What should we talk about? Care for the environment, love. I like that. Mistakes. I like that too. Yeah. So you had emailed me. Well, Wally introduced us, and you got on my radar,

and then it turns out we have all kinds of mutual friends, Eric Bostrom, Anthony Zimiti. Uh, and you had sent me this beautiful long email. And then like maybe a week or so later, when we were trying to schedule this, I went back and like search my emails to find it again. And I just entered your name and like the search window. And I noticed like it pulled up every time your name had come up in my old emails. And there was an email from like 2015 in which you like friend requested me on Strava from like way back. Right. And I was like, wow, that's so cool. Like, like how many pastors are on Strava? There can't be too many. I'm sure there's more than you think. Probably, that's probably true. But that's cool.

You're into the multi-sport lifestyle. You're into health and wellness and fitness. And we're going to talk about all of that as well. Oh, it's an honor to be here. You know, pulling up today, I was blown away. I'm thinking I've driven past this place so many times going surfing. I grew up in Los Angeles and surfed Malibu. And this was the shortcut to the ocean from the valley.

It still is. It sure is. It still is. It's funny. Yeah, a lot of people who come over here, they're like, oh, I always wondered who lived in that house. Like, I've been driving by this for years or riding my bike by or what have you. So cool. to kind of launch into this is if you could just give some background or some context for kind of what your perspective is on faith and Christianity, kind of set the stage for us to delve deeper into

it. Absolutely. Well, you know, I grew up in Los Angeles, and I really didn't grow up in a particularly spiritual home at all as a kid. My mom, though, was filled with wonder. Like literally everywhere she went and she took us with us, she was just always on the hunt for the wondrous things. So it would rain and she'd take us out looking for rainbows. We'd go to the park and we'd be looking for, you know, just things that would take our breath away.

Brothers and sisters? Yeah, younger sister, two and a half years apart to the day, I'm really close to. And growing up, she always raised us to say, everybody that you meet, there's something of value. You can learn from them. And so she was such a shaper of my life growing up that as I went through life, I just became a very curious person and just filled with wonder and wanting to meet people.

It was interesting. As I grew up, I went to Catholic middle school and high school, and it was very religious and not spiritual. It turned me off in many ways. I know what that's like. Yeah. So you didn't grow up in the church, really? Your parents weren't involved in a local congregation or anything like that?

That wasn't part of your... You know, a little bit they sent me, but it was more for the fun and the games. And then especially going to an all-boy Catholic school, I remember saying to my mom, like, I'm never going to meet somebody. And she's like, well, why don't you go to church? And so I went for the girls and I went for the games and I went for the fun. But I mean, I truly, I look back on that season and there were some great people, but for some reason, nothing stuck. And I first, you know,

I grew up and I often tell people I'm a recovering people pleaser. And then those who know me laugh because they know I haven't fully recovered. And so I think I saw faith through the lens of I'm supposed to please someone by my good works. And I felt like I never measured up. And that's where the religion came in of just the doing. And I never felt like I did enough. And so I lived with guilt, but then I would just get busy with life and sports. And that's where the religion came in of just the doing. And I never felt like I did enough. And so I lived with guilt, but then I would just get busy with life and sports and fun. But I really turned away from it.

To kind of hone in on that a little bit more, I mean, that idea of feeling like if you do these certain things that not necessarily in the eyes of God, but in the eyes of your community, like you'll be able to be accepted or embraced like that need, like that desire for approval. Is that kind of what you were, what you were mentioning? Yeah. You know, I'm talking about specifically. Exactly. That's it. I long for approval from my friends, my teachers, my coaches, my parents. And you know, when you're in the midst of it, you're just going through life. And at that time, I was moving so fast, I wasn't reflecting. I wasn't slowing down long enough to really ask myself, why am I doing these things? But as I've looked back, as I've reflected, I realized that I was longing for my dad to say, I'm proud of you.

And he's never said, I'm proud of you. And he's never said I'm proud of you to this day. And I was trying to find it everywhere. The emotionally absent father. Emotionally absent. He had tons of fun. I mean, he was the Chevy Chase from all those movies from the 70s and 80s. He'd light up a room and people wanted to be around him.

And we always laughed, but there was this deep longing from the 70s and 80s. He'd light up a room, and people wanted to be around him. We always laughed, but there was this deep longing. I think it was really for him to say, Son, I'm proud of you. And then that would spill over into every other relationship. It was almost like there was this void that wasn't being filled, so I looked for it elsewhere. So then I end up in college at at usc imagine going from all boys catholic school to the university of southern california that was a whiplash experience

and uh and faith was nowhere on my radar um but i wanted to to fit in. Just a typical college kid? Yeah. What was your crowd? Partying crowd? Sports crowd? Studios crowd? What kind of kid were you? I go back to how my mom raised me. It was, the best way I can describe it, I was a chameleon. I could fit in with the athletes.

I could fit in with the studios. I could fit in with... Whoious, I could fit in with... Who you want me to be. Exactly. I could be that guy. Totally. So even though I didn't do drugs in high school, one of my closest friends was a heroin addict in high school and we were close.

And then I was friends with a valedictorian and I was on the soccer team and I snowboarded and I... So I was just trying to fit in everywhere. I think that I relate to that a lot. Like I have a very similar story to that. I know what it's like to be a people pleaser. And I think the thing that gets baked into that or perhaps overlooked is you look back on that or at least in the time when you're navigating that, you're like, look, I'm great.

I can be friends with all these different people. Like I'm malleable. And you don't understand that like you actually like, look, I'm great. I can be friends with all these different people. I'm malleable. And you don't understand that you actually don't have a sense of self, right? You have no sort of bellwether, like no anchor or defining principles about who you are, what's okay. Where do those boundaries exist? You're just available for everybody on their terms. Where do those boundaries exist? You're just like available for everybody on their terms.

And then I found myself so contrary to myself multiple times within an hour as I spent time with one person and then going to the next. To your point, I lost myself in so many ways. And what was the hardest thing was if I let somebody down, I would be crushed. Or if I'd hear through the grapevine from a friend of a friend of a friend that somebody thought I was fake, it was like I had to do everything to... Devastating. Yeah. And it's like I didn't even know the person, you know? And yet for some reason... It's exhausting trying to be everybody all the time right hugely especially

in a big city uh and i'm an outgoing person so you know if i was trying to be everything to three people that's one thing but i was trying to be everything to hundreds of people and so really it came to this uh just this moment in college. I was a sophomore, kind of in the midst of searching. And I still do. I studied every faith, Eastern religion I was fascinated with. I visited temples and I spent time. You had this spiritual seeker thing going on the whole time. Yeah.

It was, you know, and I think it goes all the way back to my mom raising me with this sense of wonder that to see around us that there's so much more than not only what you can see, but there's just this greater thing. And I was just searching for that. And it was in the midst of all that that I met this group of people that they were different than any other Christian I'd met before. They were fun. They were real. They were kind. They were gracious. They made mistakes. They weren't judgmental. They seemed to be very intentional and mindful about how they lived. And they didn't talk so much about what they did, but who they loved. And up until that point, I thought Christianity was just a long list of what's and how's.

And during that time in this community, I realized it was all about a who, this person Jesus, that actually in all those years of Catholic school, all those times of popping in and out of church, I never really considered who this person was. And it just kind of began an exploration in that community, asking questions, not wanting to take things at face value, and literally opened up the Bible for the first time and

reading it myself. And I was shocked at what I read in terms of how loving Jesus was. And it seemed like he was always railing against religious leaders. Like Jesus is one of the most anti-religious leaders of what has become a world religion in so many ways. You know, in certain respects, he's like this punk rock activist dude, right? And I think it's, you know, as we start to like enter this terrain of talking about Christianity and Jesus and the Bible, like I find myself, like I'm just in total candor and honesty, like I start to get uncomfortable. You know, it's so loaded. There's

so much baggage that gets played in, that sort of like gets layered into this and I said this when I had Rob Bell on like I'm down with Jesus Jesus is freaking awesome like what an amazing example to kind of like you know be a light post to like guide our behavior and our decision-making and our thoughts and all of that but you know I I don't affiliate with any particular religion I have a checkered past with the church. And so when you start to, just the phraseology, like the words, I'm like, oh, man. Because I associate it with things that I either don't see eye to eye with, I disagree with. I actually feel almost like a repulsion.

You know what I mean? How can we even talk about this? Because I associate these words with something that I can't affiliate myself with necessarily. Does that make sense? You know what I'm saying? And frankly, for good reason. I mean, there's, I think that there's things that I imagine you and so many listeners right now are, you know, you're leaning back, I imagine, listeners rather than leaning forward out of repulsion for good reason. I mean, I think that I love how Gandhi said so many years ago, I love Jesus, but, you know, I can't stand your Christians, you know, to paraphrase. And

there's so many things that Christians have just so tarnished the message of Jesus. And I know one of the things I said in my email to you is, whatever the numbers are, a recent study I read said that 71% of Americans identify with Christianity. Whether that's true or not, that's a significant number. And yet I would imagine that the majority of those people that self-identify with Christianity have no idea what the Bible says about caring for creation, about God's intent for how we should interact with not only each other but with animals, that God's love for us extends not only to us but through us to every facet of creation.

So I've actually found, even as I've read your books and listened to your podcasts and explored even through the guests that you've had on this podcast, there's so much alignment in what I find, wow, that's there in Scripture. I don't hear it from many pulpits or Christian authors, but I hear it so much on your show. And I hear it so much on many of the guests that you have. And maybe this sounds ironic. I think often we hear about Christians wanting to tell other people a certain message, but I actually want you to tell the 71% of

Americans, if that's the case, a message. And your listeners, I think, can have a huge impact on people who, if they self-identify as Christian, who own businesses, who are part of setting things into law. I actually refer your podcast to more Christians on these topics, because I say this guy has it right. And there's so much alignment there. That's cool. I appreciate that. Yeah. And I've had people from all walks and all perspectives. I mean, I've had Rob Bell, but I've also had Sikh you know, Sikhs and Hindus and Buddhists and all, you know, all different kinds of traditions. I'm always trying to find, you know, the through line or the consistencies in the wisdom that you can string together, you know, sort of a purposeful

roadmap for how to live. And, you know, I'll extract that from wherever I can get it. I'll take it from the Bible. I'll take it from wherever. You know what I mean? But thank you for the kind words. I mean, it is an interesting thing because we do live, it's for the most part, like most people in the United States at least would identify as Christian, if anything else. We're in a highly controversial,

heated political climate right now in which religion has been politicized, both with Christianity, Muslim, etc. And it makes it very hard to talk about all these things. It makes it very hard to have an open dialogue about faith when we start to move towards a dogmatic version of that. And especially when it's reduced to soundbites, not in the context of a relationship, when it's across social media, when it's headlines, when it's almost like it's devoid of what real relationship

and real community and what real candor can be. And so the fact that we can sit four feet from one another in dialogue, to me this is so much of what it means to be human and as you so often say, to be authentic. So tell me what your perspective is on the Bible, Jesus, religion, faith. Just a few small small little tiny things but like i guess what i'm getting at really is you know what is the difference between how you see jesus and how like sort of you would imagine i kind of grew up you know inculcated in the idea of jesus like where's that where's that where's

that gap yeah so i became a dad a little over five years ago, and that was part of the journey, even for me, to understand this concept. For those who have been around either Christians or the Bible, it references God as a father. And for me, that was a loaded word growing up too. Here I am trying to please my dad for him to say, I'm proud of you. And it wasn't happening. Whenever I talked or saw this idea in Scripture of pleasing God,

for some reason I translated that in my mind to appease God, to do enough to measure up so that he'd say, okay, I'm proud of you. I transferred that longing of my earthly father to my idea of what, I mean, if he is a father, I guess that's what I got to do. I got to make him proud of me. When my son was born, and that's a whole just miraculous gift of a story of which it happened two years after a doctor said to my wife and I, I would give up emotionally and financially and having your own kids. It's impossible. We had struggled with infertility. And, uh, the short of the story is we had a couple

come into our life, um, years before that. And they had since moved away and called us up. They heard through the grapevine that we were struggling with trying to have a child and they had us over for dinner and they said, you know, I don't know how you feel about this, but we've been praying about this. And we want to, we want to help. And we'd be honored if you'd consider us helping you, you know, we'd be willing to carry your child for you. And this is over, you know, a meal that i haven't seen that's a heavy thing i mean

and i'm thinking like what does that mean medically you know right and so you know logistic procedure yeah it's so you know fast forward four months after you know tears and and just being overwhelmed with that generosity. We ended up moving forward with my wife and I, you know, our fertilized embryo, you know, biological child implanted into our friend. And nine months later, my son Judah was born. And I'll never forget the first time that I held him. I was immediately filled with love.

Immediately, this being, my son, filled me with so much pleasure. And I was just so overwhelmed in that moment. And all of a sudden, something just unlocked in my in my brain and i began to realize he's actually never done anything to make me proud of him he didn't get the grades to make me proud of him he hasn't said the right thing to make me proud of him he hasn't uh i just i love him because i love him in that moment, it was like a shift happened in how I could relate to God as Father. And all those concepts of pleasing God, even as I dug into the original language in the Hebrew and the Greek language, it's actually more of a be God's pleasure.

And it's less of what I need to do, but to simply receive this thing that I don't have to earn. I don't have to, um, somehow strive for. Yeah. I like that distinction. I mean, that, that takes it out of the, the, the sort of active quest of you have to measure up in a certain respect in order to earn, you know, like you're climbing some kind of ladder or something like that, as opposed to, you know, that love or that light shines indiscriminately, you know, and you can receive it or you can hide from it, but it's there irrespective of it. And there's nothing that you need to do to earn it other than to make yourself available for it. Yeah, that's so good. And there's this moment in the, there's a book in the Bible,

in the Hebrew Scriptures, it's Deuteronomy, and there's this question that God asked people and says, do you know why I love you? And he says, it's not because of this, it's not because of this, it's not because of this, but it's because I love you. And then you start to rationally trace it back. You're like, well, wait a second. So the reason why God says he loves us is because he loves us?

Yeah, but why? Because he loves us. Yeah, but why? I mean, that's where my mind always went. And so it's this circular argument that— You can never get behind it. Can't get behind it. And I found that my my life

has just flourished when i just allow myself to rest in that and uh that i don't have to be that chameleon running around trying to please everybody because that's uh that's a never-ending ladder it's you know it's a dead-end road, so to speak. So how far, you know, when did you realize that you wanted to be a pastor? Did you have another career first? I mean, you were sort of introduced to all of this when you were in college. I mean, frankly, it's a little insane that I am even a pastor. I feel like—

What was the plan? Yeah, totally. I went to USC for business. I was highly creative. I was really into art, photography. I wanted to go the marketing route. I was just fascinated with that whole realm of things. And then that kind of transition began to happen in college

where I wanted to help people, so I switched to psychology. And I thought, you know, I could be a counselor. I remember, you know, growing up there was mentors in my life and people in my life, and so maybe I'll just go down that route. I started volunteering at a camp, and then I volunteered at a church. And people began to say, you should become a pastor. And immediately my reaction was, no way, you know.

Because? I'm not good enough. I was still kind of hung up on that. That kind of sounds lame, frankly. I had such loaded... But I would imagine like you're like, like well pastor has to be some super pious totally well especially going to an all boys Catholic school

you know the they were great guys but it was kind of this otherworldly removed from the realness of life you know and I grew up surfing and camping and being in creation it felt very academic.

It felt very ivory tower and removed. And it just became one thing after another where more and more people started saying it and worked for a summer with high school kids and absolutely fell in love with that and applied to a school of psychology, a Christian school of psychology called Fuller in Pasadena. It's actually where Ravel went as well. And in the midst of all that,

the first week of orientation, there's people in my group that were saying, you know, as we're listening to you talk, it seems like you'd be better as a pastor rather than a therapist. I'm like, who are these people? Why do they keep keep saying this so i ended up talking to the head of the school and i switched my major to uh masters of divinity and it just literally became one thing after another where got hired and fell into it and uh i feel like i haven't pursued it but um the world of it opened up in front of you. Yeah, right. And so how does that work when you step into that? Logistically, they say, okay, you get a job at a church, or how do you get your first sermon? How does that work?

Well, there's so much to it, too. I know a lot of people, when they meet me for the first time, they're like, so do you work during the week? I mean, is Sunday just kind of like your day? What do you do throughout the week? And now I've been pastoring for 13 years and I've been the head of staff and the senior pastor at a church called Bel Air Church in LA. And so much of my role is overseeing the staff and pouring to them and desiring to motivate them and kind of unleash them to do the things that God has called them to. And it's tremendous fun.

I mean, we're even exploring right now on campus, you know, what would it look like for our campus to be more of a civic space for the community, not just for those at church. A farmer's market right down the road closed down because they didn't have enough parking. I'm looking at our parking. I'm thinking, we've got so much space. This would be a blessing to the community. We had a cafe on campus that was just for the church, and we renovated it and opened

it up to the whole community. And it's super intentional and sustainable and, and handmade items that just got featured in eater LA and we've got working gardens on campus. And so, you know, it's, it's, but that's the way it's supposed to be. And that's the way at some point it was, you know, it used to be that it was integrated into the culture of the community as sort of a, you know, a place where people would not only worship but congregate, you know, socially.

Absolutely. We've so institutionalized it that it's almost lost its sense of, we talked a little bit about me losing my sense of self, right? I became such a chameleon growing up, and in many ways the church, I became such a chameleon growing up. And in many ways, the church, if I can kind of put quotes around that, is it's lost its sense of self in so many ways along the way. So the more that we can return to that blessing of the community, fabric locally.

How do you think it lost its way? Like what happened? Well, so I did some doctoral work. I did a doctoral dissertation on the word remember. And the word remember is such a beautiful word throughout Scripture. It outnumbers the word believe five times to one in the Bible. And the word remember outnumbers the word trust two to one. And so there's this sense that when we forget who we are, we forget our identity, we forget what we're made for, we forget the beauty of relationships.

When we have amnesia, so to speak, we can begin to adopt what the cultural narrative is. And so part of my doctoral dissertation was tracing this through line throughout all the Bible that it's the story of people forgetting God saying, no, this is what it's all about. And this is how I want you to live. I want you to care for the strangers among you, to care for those on the margins. I want you to care for creation. I want you to treat each other, treat animals differently. People would remember for a bit, then they'd forget. Then they'd remember, then they'd forget.

And so part of my doctoral work was saying, okay, broadly speaking in the West and North America, the church has forgotten its purpose, and it's co-opted the story of consumerism. And so so much of the language of church adopted consumeristic language. This idea that we're going to get something from church, getting something from God. It's almost like we turned God into a commodity. It's transactional. Very transactional rather than transformational. And so, it was simply this longing in the dissertation and and really the kind of leadership

that i hope to bring um and it's so i just feel so underqualified doing what i do but you know i long that it could be it can be transformational that we can kind of remember the beauty of this life that we've been given as a gift well you know you're now presiding over you know at bel-air i mean you have this incredibly engaged passionate you know congregation of people that absolutely love you you know it's like i've heard about you from many different people like there's a lot of people who are you know getting a ton out of you know being part of your congregation so what do you what are you doing what do you think you're doing that's different, that is resonating with people and attracting a certain contingent of person that perhaps the other pastor on the other side of town isn't doing? Well, on one hand, you used the word repulsion a little bit ago. And I never want it to be about me.

And I think that sometimes our ego gets in the way. And I think one of the reasons, too, why I didn't want to become a pastor is it became such a celebrity culture. You know, there's so many sub-pockets of everything in the surfing community, in the writing community, academic community, in the Christian community. There can be these kind of like celebrity rock stars where, oh, it's so-and-so's church, let's go to so-and-so's church. And it just becomes this cult of personality.

And so, I don't know, maybe part of it is that I'm not looking to step into the limelight and make it about me, but I think there's so much power in individuals within the broader community being activated. There's this word that I love. It's the word indispensable. And it's used actually in the Bible to describe the people in the church. And we live in such a dispensable world where in workplaces people are disposed of, sports teams, relationships. people are disposed of, sports teams, relationships,

but it's this idea that every single part is necessary to the whole. It's kind of like when you do a puzzle. Of course, the corner pieces seem to be the most important. The edge pieces seem to be the most important. But I can't complete it without every piece. Yes, and it's so frustrating getting to the very end and that one piece, even if it's like the boring gray, seemingly innocuous piece is not there. It's not whole.

Yeah. It's a problem. I mean, it's an incredibly disposable culture that we live in. We dispose of the elderly. We warehouse them in places where we don't have to see them. We dispose of these single-use items and they just end up in some Texas-sized goo in the middle of the Pacific. We dispose of our clothing items. We dispose of individual... Everything is ephemera and we've gotten away from that sense of permanence. And perhaps that's part of the remembering that you said earlier. How do we find our way back to what's important and how to value what it is that we

have instead of just looking to the next thing and to the next thing. I mean, it's culturally driven, right? At some point or on some level, you have to exert energy to kind of, you know, tune that out because that messaging is so diffused everywhere you look. It's incoming. So you actually have to have a level of consciousness and awareness to opt out. And it's so hard to opt out, to your point, because we are so steeped in a consumeristic culture.

I almost think that materialism is, in some ways, if I could say it this way, it's almost healthier than consumerism because there's a sense of value for a thing. You know, long gone are the days where there's family heirlooms that are passed down through the generations, long gone are the days where we'd say, you know, this is where my shoes came from. This is where my shirt came from. You know, everything is anonymous to us now. And, you know, the whole consumeristic, uh, unending cycle that is so easy to get caught up in. It's this, frankly, it's built on a longing, not for what we need, but what we want. You know, and our needs are finite. You know, as humans, there's needs that are the same.

You could argue across cultures around the world, but wants are infinitely stretched. And our culture is stretching. You know, like I really want a tent on the top of my car right now. You know? That'll be the thing. Once the top of my car right now. You know? That'll be the thing. Once I get that, then it'll be cool. And the crazy thing is I look back on my life and I have some of the things that I wanted

and it didn't fill that hole that I was looking for. It never does. It never does. But you always think the next thing is gonna. That is the plight of the human condition, right? And now I get just excited i mean i i'm in the midst of this right i get i get so excited when i hit click on by now i mean i was reading some study recently that said that the the same part of your brain activates uh when you hit by now then when you take a hit of heroin.

It's the same region. But then when it shows up, I have boxes that sit unopened for weeks because I've kind of mentally moved on to the next thing. So I'm in the thick of it. I'm in no way perfect. I'm on this journey with all of us trying to figure out how to live more mindfully and intentionally. and fully and intentionally. So let's move to the Bible and unpack that a little bit.

I'm certainly no biblical scholar. I barely know what the average human being knows or the average American knows about what's in the Bible. But I do know that the narrative is about how inherently conflicting it is, how it's sort of colloquial and outdated. Like, how do you approach it? How do you come at it from a literal perspective, from an allegorical perspective? How do you reconcile the inconsistencies

and sort of navigate those treacherous waters. Yeah, they are treacherous and they're real. I mean, it's 66 books that have been put together that were written over 1,600 years and they use such different forms of human language. I mean, there's poetry, there's eyewitness accounts there's moments of just very vivid vivid vivid vivid almost like how can you wrap human language around this scene you know language and then there's very mundane earthy real life and I think when I consider all that,

and I consider all the different genres of writing that goes into it, what's helped me is to look for those through lines. And so I got my doctorate in semiotics, which is such a weird word, right? What is semiotics? Yeah, explain what that even means. You're an expert in semiotics. The listeners are experts in semiotics. You just don't right? What is semiotics? Yeah, explain what that even means. Okay, you're an expert in semiotics. The listeners are experts in semiotics. You just don't know it's called semiotics.

So semiotics is the study of signs and symbols and how we make and communicate meaning. So if you're outside, the sky is blue, and if I said, is it about to rain or is it a nice day out? Most people would say it's a nice day, and it's because the blue sky is a sign that signifies that it's not going to rain. It gets dark, it gets cloudy. That's a sign that signifies it's likely going to rain.

So it's massively complex. Body language, words, everything throughout life is, in some ways you could say, is language. And so when you approach it from that point of view, all of a sudden these rich, amazing themes begin to jump out. So for example, in the beginning, the book of Genesis, it talks about how God creates everything and it's just very good. God creates everything, and it's just very good. And God creates, and most people don't know this,

but it says that God reaches into the adamah, which is the ground, which just right there is so significant because God's willing to get God's hands dirty. So there's something about God willing to roll up God's sleeves, if I can even say it that way, that God gets in the dirt, which to me symbolically is so significant. And God reaches into the Adamah and pulls out the, and the Hebrew word is ha-adam. It literally means from the earth creature. So we translate that as the man, but it's literally mean from the earth creature. So at the very core of our identity, I mean, this is the Bible. This is's literally from the earth creature. So at the very core of our identity, I mean, this is the Bible. This is what most Christians don't know, that God's original

design was that we came from the earth. It says that God breathes life into us and God puts us into a garden. And the first thing that God says to that first creature, the from the earth creature, it's, and I want you to care for and cultivate the earth. And then it goes on to say, look, I've given you all these trees, all these herbs, all these plants that are good for food. And then all the animals that are here, I've given them herbs and plants for food. And I could absolutely make the case that God's original intent i mean it's so clear in the genesis to account god's original intent was for a vegan existence man to be man to be vegan and man to be plant-based well what is the what's the clot like you know you shall sow the fruits of the earth or whatever that gets sort of pointed to as the argument that man is entitled to use animals for his own will.

Well, see, that's one verse that when you take it alone and you read your own cultural biases into it, you can say, well, there's permission right there. Dominion over the animals. Totally. Right. But the word dominion, actually, in the Hebrew language, But the word dominion, actually, in the Hebrew language, has to be coupled with all the other verses that talk about our care for the animals.

I printed out this list. There's a website called Blessed Earth that has verse after verse after verse of what the Bible says about caring for animals, about creation care. And what's amazing is there's all this imagery and all this language of God saying, you're responsible for caring for animals. You're responsible for caring for all of creation. And I'm a big proponent of choice. I think that that's the beauty of humanity is that we can make choices and that we have the ability to choose. But there's a huge difference between choosing based on a preference and choosing based on a responsibility. And I think some people think that caring for the environment, well, that's just a preference.

How I consume things, that's a preference. Actually, from my point of view, from a biblically grounded view, there's a responsibility. Well, we've certainly gotten far afield of that. I mean, we're living in a society that is at odds with sustainable principles. You know, it's only now becoming part of the common vernacular to even discuss these things. But, you know, the idea that we would be caring for the animals. only now becoming part of the common vernacular to even discuss these things. But, you know, the idea that we would be caring for the animals, I mean, that's just not something that we're doing.

Not at all. We're not tending to the earth in any kind of sustainable way except on the fringe. Absolutely. You know, one of the verses that is so fascinating is Hosea 2.18. It says this. It says, In that day I will make a covenant for them, this is regarding humans, with the beasts of the field and the birds of the air and the creatures that move along the ground. Bow and sword and battle I will abolish from the land so that all may lay down in safety.

You don't hear that preached on. You don't hear Christians talk about that much. No, I've never heard that before. So what do you extract from that? It's this idea, so the word covenant is this rich word that says, it's like a binding promise. Where God is saying, I want you to covenant with the rest of my creation, with animals, to care for them, to live responsibly with them. Many people have heard of the Noah story, Noah and the ark,

and people can argue back and forth over the nuances of that and the literalness of that. But it says this, I now establish my covenant with you and with your descendants after you, with every living creature that was with you, the birds, the livestock, and all the wild animals, all those that came out of the ark with you, every living creature on earth. And to me, when you go on and on throughout Scripture and you see how much God has interwoven not only humans into the beauty go on and on throughout scripture and you see how much God has interwoven not

only humans into the beauty of this world, because there's, there's such beauty in the diversity of humanity, you know, as people meet those are working with as they travel, there's just such diversity and such beauty. And it, to me,

it just, it points to the creativity of God, but it goes beyond that. It goes to the diversity of plants and animals, things that even science is discovering. I mean, the fact that people are still discovering new species in the Amazon, in the depths of the ocean. And God says, I want you to think thoughtfully

and caringly and sustainably towards all these things. I get on board with that. And in my journey of faiths, I see there's a lot of alignment. Yeah, I mean, that's a beautiful sentiment. And I certainly am in alignment with that perspective. I think it's something we would be better off if more people kind of lived in alignment with that i think but how do you you know then however many chapters later isn't you know there's like you know slaughter the goat and put the blood above the door you know like there's a million other so how do you do with that totally brutality and you know the garden of eden and the seven days that you know yeah you know like it gets back to that like literal versus allegory totally perspective like how do you how

do you think about that yeah so on one hand i try not to get so hung up on some of those but i try to step back and look at what's this overarching narrative. And so if this idea that God, in a sense, you know, begins the story, as it were, in a garden, and God's original intent is for us to live in wholeness with each other, with creation, with God, with ourselves. And in the midst of that, there's a choice. You know, God says, I've given you all these trees. Eat from all the trees, but that one tree, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil,

don't eat from it. Of course, they do what I would do. You know, I'm curious, right? And then the scripture goes on and says, and their eyes were opened. And what's interesting is this, and their eyes were opened and they were ashamed. And they hid from each other. They hid from God.

And they tried to cover themselves. And God shows up and God says, what happened? And they say, they blame each other. You know, the man says the woman, you know, it's her fault, which we so easily do as humans, right? We want to pass the blame. And what God does is there's the first sacrifice in Scripture. And that's actually a strong word, but there's a through line there.

And sadly, and I do mean this sadly, and I do believe that God was grieved. It says that, and God covered the first humans with the skin of animals. And I believe that it grieved God's heart to do that. As I look at the fullness of Scripture. Because that is a manifestation of eating from the tree, right? That wouldn't have been necessary had they just sort of done what he wanted them to do. Because, and why I make that statement, there's many verses that talk about how God longs for things and kind of what it says the culmination of history will look like.

Isaiah 11, for example, talks about how the lion will lay down with the wolf, the child will lay down with the snake, and there will be no bloodshed. There will be no war. And there's all this imagery of if it began in a garden, there's this picture in the book of Revelation, it says that it's going to end in a garden city, that it's actually going to be a return to how things were originally intended. And if it begins in a garden and it ends in a garden city, and right in the center of it all, when Jesus, as Scripture says, defeats death and rises from the grave, kind of that Easter story and what Christians celebrate every Sunday, what's interesting

is he's mistaken as a gardener. And here you have the overarching story of Scripture. It begins in a garden, ends in a garden city, and right in the center of it, Jesus is mistaken for a gardener. There's these themes that I can't overlook and seem so rich to me. So that when I then filter all of that through all of Scripture, there seems to be this sense that I make choices in my life, for example, to move towards garden time. of my life, for example, to move towards garden time. And I found that even in my own life, as I've taken up gardening, I begin to enter a rhythm that just seems so much healthier. It's not focused on me, the gardener.

You're living in the rhythms of nature and the planet. I mean, there's that other part too. I was talking to Rob Bell about this recently. He's like, there's this whole section about how you have to let the land lie fallow after you harvest for a certain period of time because the soil's got to come back, right? Like they're talking about this in the Bible,

which is something that clearly we don't do in our world of factory farming. We just farm it until it's completely dead and then put a bunch of chemicals on it and try to revive it. Absolutely. There's another verse that says, If you must go to war, make sure you don't cut down the trees. So there's this. And what's interesting, if you must.

So how I describe it, and I've heard others describe it this way, it's as if God is meeting us where we are in our brokenness. And the whole concept of the sacrificial system, I don't believe, is how God originally intended it to be. What do you mean by that? In the sense that all those verses that you're referring to of sacrificing a goat and all these things, it was later on in Scripture it says that God gave us all of these things, all the things of the law, to show us how on our own strength and our own flesh we can't do enough. So this whole idea of human-made religion, because if you follow the narrative of Scripture, it begins with a deep, intimate relationship with God. There was no sacrifices in the garden.

There was no Ten Commandments in the garden. And when we ate from that tree, the knowledge of good and evil, in a sense trying to figure out things on our own, it began this long journey through all of that, ultimately, I believe, to win us back to God's original intent. To come back to the garden, right? So with humankind, we have to go through our machinations with our projections of what all this stuff means and the doctrines and the institutions that come with that, that are imperfect and fraught with, you know, man's weaknesses and frailties and, you know, egos and all the like.

Absolutely. And then all the things that you and I and many get repulsed with. And I'll just speak for the church throughout history. I mean, just the awful atrocities throughout the world. And even today when you hear about Christian leaders who are, you know, wanting to do things that just seem absolutely fraught with, you know, this is destroying creation. This isn't caring for humanity.

I believe that God is repulsed too. And yet God is, I see in scripture, so patient, so loving, keeps pursuing us. And that gives me hope and encouragement even in my own life. It's so weird how a certain contingent of like the, you know, very conservative, very conservative, far-right end of the Christian faith gets aligned with these political values that are so patently at odds with the wisdom of the scripture itself, whether it's aligning with big corporations or certain... It's like, look, Jesus is all about the poor, right? How can we help the poor? But the values and the actions of the people at that certain far end of the spectrum are completely antithetical to that, right? So how does that happen?

How do those people reconcile that in their own minds? How did the church get to that point where that becomes a sort of acceptable narrative and perspective? I think it goes back to this cyclical history that I see played out throughout Scripture. It's we've forgotten, frankly. And that's why that word remember is so—I mean, the fact that it outnumbers the word believe five to one, outnumbers the word trust two to one. Outnumber is the word believe, five to one. Outnumber is the word trust, two to one. And it seems like the root of all brokenness is that we forget,

that we get so mindless, that we get so wrapped up in other things, that we go through life completely unknowingly, without any sort of self-reflection, destroying ourselves, destroying the planet, destroying relationships. And I don't presume to speak for other people, but I imagine that the far right isn't thoughtfully reflecting on the choices that they're making and how they line up with Scripture. I think they've just kind of forgotten it along the way. Yeah, it's weird how this sort of conservative, I mean, the word conservative,

I don't even know what that means anymore because it's sort of been used in many different ways. But the idea that that perspective that is, you know, there's a certain sort of closed-mindedness, I guess. Like, I'm treading very carefully because I don't want to speak out of school, and I'm certainly not out to, you know, malign anybody. But I'm wrestling with this idea of that contingent walking around with a perspective that is so at odds with Christianity itself, and yet using it as a sword to push a certain agenda forward that I don't think Jesus would be too crazy about. Not at all. And that's what's so shocking when I read these stories about Jesus. As I said before, he gets upset not with people who don't measure up.

He doesn't get upset with people who make mistakes. He gets upset with people that think they have it all together and who are highly religious and who are saying you've got to do all this to measure up, even though they don't have to live those latch themselves. It's this judgmental, hypocritical, condescending, condemning point of view that Jesus says, no, you're so missing the point. And I love that invitation that I see, a patient invitation, to say it this way, to enter that garden time and to

enter those deep, meaningful relationships, and to re-remember, if you can even, I don't know if that's even a word, re-remember. Because I think latent within us is the divine. It's how we've been created. The way the Bible says it is that we're made in the image of God. So in some ways it's unlocking, it's re-remembering, it's bringing forth that which has always been there, but we've almost fallen asleep to or forgotten.

Yeah, connecting with that primal nature that we exert so much energy and effort into covering up, right? Because we're wearing, we have to put the mask on and go out into the world and adhere to certain social constructs because that's what you do, right? And it's almost impermissible or in many ways unthinkable to like go back to that beautiful childlike uh perhaps naive place of indiscriminate love and wonder and imagination right that's not what adults do we're not supposed to do that if you're going to do that then you're being irresponsible or you know your eyes off the ball yeah it's amazing how uh even just looking at my, who's five, and we've got one on the

way, which is another miraculous story in and of itself. But congratulations. Thank you. I know it's pretty bonkers when I think about it. But, you know, look at the wonder of my son. I took him camping this past weekend, and that's his thing now. He just loves being outdoors and how dirty he gets. And I think about, gosh, he's living into this from-the-earth creature-ness that, as you said a moment ago, is so primal, so part of the core of who we are. But we live in a Purell generation, you know, sanitized everything and everywhere. There's this anonymousness to life that, you know, I go back and just to briefly go back to the beginning of Scripture. The story goes that God gives the first human the ability to name the animals.

gives the first human the ability to name the animals. And to me, that's so profound, because once something's named, you're in a relationship with it. I go through a life and I pick up something and I say, what's this? It doesn't mean anything to me. But the moment that I say, I think of the name Chelsea, that was my first golden retriever. I think of the name Chelsea. That was my first golden retriever. I think of my wife, Erica, my brother-in-law, Rhett Smith.

When someone's named, there's this deep relationship and how we've so moved away from that that we've forgotten that sense of deep, intimate connection. As you said, that childlike wonder right so you go camping with him and you're you're like that's the garden right like how long can i keep him in the garden you almost it's almost like a a defense against the inevitable you know gestalt of growing up and what that brings that will erode that relationship. And we're in a time now where more than ever we're completely disconnected,

not just from the garden, from nature, from where our food comes from, from where our clothes come from, where all of our consumer goods, we don't know anything about them. We have no relationship. They have names, but I don't know how about them. We have no relationship. They have names,

but I don't know how meaningful that relationship is to that, whether it's an inanimate object or, you know, even to our fellow human beings, they have names. We didn't give them those names, but those relationships are not as deep or as meaningful, I think, as they once were in a culture where, you know, you only knew 100 people because we were living in villages. And that's not the world that we live in right now, right? So this divorce from that tactile experience that you're relating to, you know, allegorically from the garden is something that is not really part of the human experience if we don't want it to be, unless we exert a tremendous amount of energy and intentionality into making that

connection. And one of the greatest gifts my sister ever gave me was a little book that said, Plants of the Pacific West, Western States. And it's this little handheld book that literally you open it up and it says, does the tree have three leaves or four leaves? Are they pointed? And you choose one, then you move to the next page. And you could literally...

Like a decision tree. It's a decision tree, right, to know what the trees are. And so I had a buddy, Mike, that lived near me. And every morning we would get up. We had kids around the same time, and we'd go on a hike locally here. And we'd have our kids on our packs when they were young. And I would carry this little guide, and I'd try to figure out what the trees were. And as my son got older, we would walk under these pepper trees, and I knew that they were Peruvian pepper trees.

I had no idea what they were before, and I would always grab them, because in the book it said that they smelled just like pepper. And I would grab a leaf, and I'd crush it, and I'd put it right up next to him, and he'd smell it. And as he grew up, I kind of, frankly, I forgot about that experience. And we happened to be walking in a completely different part of town. And he was, I think, three at the time. And he looks up and he says, dad, that's a pepper tree. And it was like this moment of, oh, that's the garden right there. And the fact that he. And he says, grab a leaf.

It smells like pepper. And I just wanted to make more and more choices like that where I can know the source of things, the names of things, whether it's roasting my own coffee or growing my own vegetables or brewing my own beer. I mean, just getting closer to the source, closer to the ground, as it were. I know it's helped me in so many ways getting back to that garden time, that rhythm. Yeah, it's cool.

So you have a vegetable garden, you're growing some of your own food? Yeah, earth boxes are the thing. And it's out of control. I just keep buying more and more. And my son and I just love it and following the seasons and you know it's tough in LA when it gets scorching

hot and I go out of town and come back and my tomato plants are fried we're traveling so much we took a stab at it like a year ago and then everything I feel like a terrible like ambassador of the plant based lifestyle because I failed at doing you know the home gardening thing but we're just so busy all the time like we

got to figure it out it's super important but even with that though like i think the more freedom that we have there's you know life is so full of seasons and uh i don't i can't do everything all at once um but when I can pick and choose. I mean, even the little things like I have a cup of coffee every day. And about eight years ago, I decided I'm going to hand grind my coffee. My wife thinks I'm ridiculous because it squeaks. Hipster pastor. No.

I don't even think of it that way, but it's in the sense of like, okay, I would go through life and I would have this mindless consumption of coffee. I wouldn't even think about it. I'd, I'd, you know, press a button and there it would be. And, but there's something about the work that goes into it. Even if it's coffee that I've roasted, that's now taken 10 days to get to, you know, the optimal moment. I, I i as ironic as it sounds there's

i'm finding more and more joy in the in the mundaneness of work and it's it's grounding me in some ways it's centering me in so many ways yeah they're like uh they're active meditations that are connecting you with the garden, right? Quite literally, right? So it's a really interesting concept. Well, first of all, so you've been plant-based? Are you living the plant? No, no.

So I'm going to be straight. Be honest with me. Of course, yeah. And some people make fun of me for this i'm i'm vegan before dinner and i know that bit mark bitman's vegan before six oh i've heard about that that's right that's i haven't read that yet and so of course um i mean i have a vegan friend wally uh who you know and and you know he he gives me so much grace in the midst of that rather than like, well, you're not, you haven't gone all the way, you know, and shaming me and such. But I've appreciated that he's invited me in this journey of really being thoughtful and thinking through things.

And, you know, it's interesting. I got a text from a buddy a week ago, Kevin, and he said, you know, he's a manager of a large sushi restaurant in Los Angeles. And he texted me, had no idea I was coming on this podcast. And he said, let's talk vegan. And he said, I never thought I'd say those three words. And, you know, my brother-in-law and sister-in-law in Texas, I mean, they're headed that route. My sisters and her husband are vegetarian. And so kind of on this journey of I'm for sure going to end there. The signals are light.

You're sitting in my container right now. Come on, man. I know. We're going to get you there. Come on, man. I know. We'll get you there. And even going back to Scripture of reading through some of these verses that, frankly, I had skimmed over. It's convicting.

It's challenging. And I go back to the moment when I read Finding Ultra the first time I read it. I was on a vacation with my wife, and I finished it in one day. It was the plane ride there to Hawaii and on the beach. And I saved up, and I got a blender. And since then, I've been doing green smoothies. And it began to shift for me of realizing, not just from a health perspective, but then as I started to open up Scripture, realizing actually my faith has,

to go back to the responsibility side of things, this isn't just a preference that I'm going to choose, which at first it was, but I'm beginning to realize there's this responsibility that I believe that God is looking at me, not only as a human being, but now especially as a leader in the community and as a pastor, the type of impact that that can make. Again, when it's grounded in this responsibility that God, I believe, gives me and us as a mandate to care for animals and care for creation. This could be the tipping point right now, right? Yeah, well, I think it's an interesting idea to explore.

I think there's an alignment of behavior with attitude and perspective and philosophy that derives, you know, for you from that scripture. And, you know, from what you've said today, like, that message is pretty clear, and it imbues you with a sense of responsibility to, you know, speak to these issues of sustainability and environmentalism and our sort of collective responsibility to care for the animals. So we all have, like you said, also, we're all human beings. We're not perfect. We're not far from it. But where can I identify areas in my life where my actions are not in alignment with those activities. And I think diet's super emotional. Our food system is one of those things where there are blind spots

and we're sort of almost compelled to not be able to do the math and see where our food comes from because they don't want it that way. Is it better for business if we really can't see that kind of stuff and there's laws erected to prevent us from really fully understanding that. But when I look at, you know, look back on when I was writing Finding Ultra, like I had a certain experience and a certain perspective that had to do with shifting my diet. to do was shifting my diet. And now, five years later, six years, you know, that has evolved. And when I began, I just didn't want to be fat. I didn't want to feel lousy. I wanted to feel good. I wanted to be an athlete. It was very self-involved. It was about me and like, how am I going to be better? Now that has evolved into being mostly concerned about the environmental

and ethical implications of the food choices that we make. That was not the case when I began this. I had to grow into that myself. But I really believe that food is a portal for self-actualization. Perhaps it's the first portal for self-actualization. And by self-actualization. Perhaps it's the first portal for self-actualization. And by self-actualization, I think there's space to build in that idea of remembering or remembrance. It's like self-actualization is becoming the best version of yourself, connecting to that most natural primal version that you were kind of birthed into that you are meant to be, right? Our journey as humans is to sort of discover that and to grow into that rather than run from it or escape from it, right?

And I think food is a way to initiate that process for people. And what's interesting, when you talked about that portal to self-actualization, where my mind went to was, most people don't know this, but the first command in scripture is a positive command. And the first command that God gives humans is eat freely from all the trees of the garden, which is so interesting. I mean, so even in that sacred text that I draw the foundation for my life from, that is the beginning point as well for humanity. Would you say that you moved from the choice based on preference to choice based on responsibility in that journey of choosing a plant-based?

Yeah, I think so. I recall a very specific moment when after I had made this change and was sort of getting some attention for it, some folks from PETA came and they did an interview with me and they said, you know, what about the animals? What's your perspective on that? Like, how do you feel about how we're, you know, how we're sort of treating you? And I certainly, like, I'm a compassionate person.

Like, I think factory farming is, but it wasn't like, it wasn't the main driver, you know? And I'd always like been like, well, I don't know about like, you know,

like I had visions of throwing blood on, you know, like a lot of the crazy stunts and stuff that go on. Like I didn't really, I don't associate with that. So animal rights activism was not part of my mental calculus. And I didn't know that it ever would be. But now I find myself really caring about that in a way that I didn't expect.

And I think it's also catalyzed a journey into thinking about what does it mean to be a man and what is that that how do i associate masculinity what is my relationship with masculinity what does masculinity mean and and as men you know how do we be a positive masculine force right and i think there's a lot of people that are confused about that or we've created gender norms around masculinity, I think are somewhat unhealthy. Like to be an animal rights activist is to be weak, right? When in fact, to be compassionate is the ultimate strength, right? Hugely. And, you know, the word meek, which is a word that describes Jesus, I think it's a lot of bad rap, simply because it rhymes with weak.

But that word for meekness is actually the word that's used to describe when you bridle a wild horse. It has all this strength. It has all this power. And yet it restrains its power for the sake of the person writing it. And so this picture of Jesus, which is filled with power, the fact that he would wash other

people's feet, might come across as kind of weak and emasculating, but it is. I mean, the most powerful, masculine, strongest thing to do is have the confidence to say, even I'm sorry, or I messed up. How can I help you? How can I serve you? How can I put you first? That's a great point. I mean, it's so needed in our society right now. Yeah, I don't know how we can find our way back to that I think it's really interesting I think it's interesting how you know men think of themselves and how society breeds a certain perspective on masculinity that I think is is unhealthy and is and is you know making a lot of men unhappy to you know being confused

about how they're supposed to behave and act. Well, and there's so many perspectives right now. And we live in the global village that there's messages across the whole spectrum of what a man should be. And so going back to me as the recovering people pleaser, if I was to just put that on the lens of my mindset, you know, what does it mean to be a man?

I could see so many conflicting messages out there that it takes a lot of strength and really, I think, a healthy, intentional search to find out truly what that does mean. Because there's so many conflicting messages out there you latch on to. Yeah. mean because there's so many conflicting messages out there you latch on to yeah i mean your dad's generation you know chevy chase from you know the like the national lampoon movies i mean that that sort of baby boomer generation and sort of provide for the family you know being emotionally available or emotionally vulnerable with your kids that's not part of like how they grew up right like it was sort of it was it was clearer like this is the

role that i fulfill as long as i do that like it's cool everything else is kind of like secondary now we have to do that but then we also have to be the super emotionally available parent who's co-parenting and doing just as much with the school like all these other things like and and balancing i think that becomes tricky for you know i'm only speaking about men because that's my own personal experience but i think it becomes difficult or tricky for men to try to figure out how they're going to excel in all of these things right and and the pressure that they put on themselves to be able to fulfill that role. Well, and it seems like it's just getting complicated exponentially, too, as culture is moving faster and faster.

And as I said before, just this global village idea that there's so many perspectives that everywhere you turn, you're not enough. And it's exhausting. And there's a frenzied pace of, even I find when I go on social media, that there's this moment of like, oh, I'm not, like that's... Somebody else is always living a better life.

Totally. It's so true, right? And I have to be mindful. So I've chosen to you know be mindful of gosh do i what do i portray because i don't want to perpetuate that you know uh when i post when i share i don't want to unknowingly kind of perpetuate this this is what it means to be if i haven't really thought through it in a way that causes somebody else to say gosh that's the that's the life i want that you know drew's measured up to whatever it is because i'm on the journey with everybody else trying to figure this out

yeah i mean it's it's unprecedented you know this relationship with these devices that we have that are you know making it more and more difficult to get back to the garden. You know, it's just like, we're never bored, ever. There's no, you will never, like, children today will have no idea what it means to be bored because you will always have that device that will entertain you. Yeah. And what does that mean? Like, what are the implications of that?

And to not have to wait. So, like, garden time, I think about how long it takes for my tomatoes to grow, the corn. I mean, it's, and there's a lot of work in the waiting. So it's not a passive waiting, it's an active waiting. And that's so rare because now I can click a button and it can show up same day. It can show up in two hours. I can, I mean, gone are the days where I could go to a, you know, a blockbuster video.

You know, I download it all. It's instant. So even choices that I've made to go more analog, you know, getting back into vinyl and reading paper books. There's the hipster pastor again. Now I'm getting a picture. No, it's great. So when does the cycling, like the multi-sport endurance stuff come into your life well you always done that stuff yeah so i grew up playing soccer

and you know with soccer you you run a lot and i ended up uh playing through college and uh you know after i graduated i'd run here and there. But really, frankly, I kind of fell away from it. And no joke, I read your book in 2012, and it just, it was deeply, deeply inspiring. And I made this choice of, you know, I've got to make a change. And I had struggled with lower back problems. I got hurt playing soccer. And so I had this mental idea that, you know, I'm never going to really get back to the level of running that I used to.

And my brother-in-law, you know, who talked about Rhett, you know, and he read your book. I was trying to remember when I think I got introduced to him or he reached out to me around the time of Finding Ultra. And he has a podcast, right? He does. So I think I was a guest on his podcast like a long time ago. Years ago.

He was blogging and things like that. So he is just, I mean, I've got deep respect for him. And he writes and he continues to do the podcasts. So we would talk about running Finding Ultra. And he was, and he continues to do the podcasts. And so we would talk about running and finding ultra. And he was living in Texas, and I was living in Los Angeles. And so both of us kind of kicked up the running again. And I began to meet other people that I could tag along with. And so in the midst of that, I met Anthony Zimiti, a know, a guy that, you know, and I mean, this guy's run 50 mile races.

Yeah. So Anthony, for the listeners, he's a, he's a rock and roll drummer. He's a lot of things, but he's a, you know, he's a, he's a professional musician. Um, but he's also an accomplished ultra runner. I met him in whole foods just randomly. like we just struck up a conversation in whole foods and we've become friends and our kids go to school together now um but yeah like i see him out on the trail and he's killing it man he's a you know he's a super strong runner and he's part of your congregation yeah yeah you know and and what's been fun too even on some of the runs that we've done together you know he's out there so much more than I am. But we've been on runs together, and I remember one day he was saying, I don't want my running to just be about me.

I don't want it to just be this selfish thing. But I want it to somehow make an impact and help others. And he kind of did this charity run last year, and he ran the Backbone Trail here in California. I think, what is it, like 67 miles or so? Yeah, it's not a joke. Yeah, so we did it in one go, got Ubered up to the trail and raised money for a charity called Hope Heals. And, you know, in the midst of just spending time with him and with other people, I just began to start pushing myself more. And frankly, I think changing my diet, I lost weight, my back pain went away,

and I did the Sean O'Brien last year. Right. Just under seven hours. The one that I did, I'll call it the junior Sean O'Brien. I did the 50 kilometer. 50K, okay. Anthony did the 50 miler. And that was my first, you know, beyond a marathon.

Yeah, that's amazing. And it was, I had this moment where I was just up there in tears because I physically didn't think I'd be able to get back out and to enjoy things. And I had even developed allergies. I physically didn't think I'd be able to get back out and to enjoy things. I had even developed allergies. I had this, years ago, this deep chest thing that when I'd cycle locally, I would just start wheezing on the hill climbs. I took milk out of my diet, and it went away. It was like all these things came together at once, i'm up on the ridge uh you know on the home stretch looking out over the pacific ocean and down to malibu

creek state park uh knowing my wife and my my four-year-old son were at the end of it and and frankly i might trace it all the way back to that stretch that i read, Finding Ultra. And, you know, it's been such a joy. But let me share this. A couple months after that, and I know this is going to sound like it's shifting gears, but a couple months after that, you know, I'm still training for more races. I did the Ray Miller, I did the Sean O'Brien.

I'm thinking, okay, this is my, I'm plotting races. Okay, I'm into this. I'm going to catch up to Anthony, right? It's got its claws into you. Yes, it does, right? And so I was, you know, I friend you on Strava, right, in the midst of all that years ago. But in the midst of the leadership that I do in the church,

as a recovering people pleaser, when I have to make decisions that are necessary decisions sometimes when you run an organization where you have to let somebody go. I had to make a really, really tough decision last summer that was just so hard to make. And I went into hiding after that. And I didn't know I went into hiding. And eight months went by that I didn't run a foot. And I've been on this like three year stretch of just, you know, building miles, building miles. And then I go for eight months, no running. And I was at the, uh, the opening,

opening day of the Dodgers. Somebody invited me, and I'm with this guy. And he says, hey, you run right. And it's all of a sudden registering. Like, man, I haven't ran in a while. And I start telling him about Strava, and I open it up. And I go in, and I realize my last activity was two days before I let this guy go. And I'm sitting there in Dodger Stadium and this guy's talking to me. And I literally had this time standstill moment where I'm beginning to realize, oh my

gosh, I stopped running because his wife follows me on Strava. And I was so embarrassed that I had to make the choice to let him go. But if I was out running and she saw me on Strava, and I was so embarrassed that I had to make the choice to let him go, that if I was out running and she saw me on Strava, that she would say, why is this guy out enjoying his life when he ruined ours? And all of a sudden, that moment, that self-reflection, you know, all that came rushing in, and I realized, man, I haven't recovered from people pleasing and if i'm not intentional it's going to destroy aspects of my life that i've begun to build up and i i lost the miles i had started gaining weight um the vegan before dinner was starting to right stretch less and less for lunch yeah before i wake up right vegan before i wake up you know

well that's really interesting i mean that's that's some great self-awareness but to have that occur and have that amount of time go by without being able to do that math and then you know sort of dawning on you yeah there's that weird boundary thing. Like, what is it okay to allow into your mental, emotional space, and what isn't? And I think there's sort of a weird, maybe it might be helpful to think of it, like I said, I deal with the same stuff. I'm a people pleaser, so I'm sharing this from my own struggles and experience, but there's a, there's almost a reverse ego thing that goes on.

So by that, I mean, when you say, oh my gosh, I have to let this person go. How unbelievably devastating this is going to be for them because of course they want to stay with me you know what i mean like there's a weird attachment of your own sense of importance that gets built into that that heightens the whole thing oh that's interesting you know what i mean and it's counterintuitive because you're like coming from this place of like who am i to fire this person how what an awful person i am but there is also that escalated sense of the the importance of the whole affair like oh my god this person will be scarred and devastated for the rest of their life because of this thing that i did or did not do i'm almost maybe in that moment thinking too highly of myself that I could literally ruin somebody for that decision.

You don't have that power. You're not that powerful, right? So for all you know, you gave them the greatest gift they've ever had because had you not let them go, they would have never found this other thing. Circumstances arose that made it necessary for you to make this decision. And that's just information. And that person may take that information and course correct and end up in a much better place. We don't know that, but maybe that will help give you a little bit of peace over that or

help inform the next time that you have to do something like that. Yeah, that's good. I'm going to, I'm going to chew on that. Yeah. You know, and it's crazy in the midst of, of all that, the lack of self-awareness for me to not even know that eight months had gone by, you know, talk about forgetting. I, I, I fell out of the rhythm. And the fact that somebody said, well, how long has it been? I wouldn't have said eight months in that moment. It took me literally opening up my phone to see when that last activity was. And I did the math and it was just mind-blowing. But that's a good word for me.

The suffering that you yourself shouldered with shame and guilt and remorse and all of that. Yeah. Punishing yourself, right? Right back to being in Catholic school as a kid. Yeah. I forgot, right? So, forgot. The running, though, I'm interested in how you kind of perceive what that means to you.

Because I think of it as sort of an act of meditation. It's a spiritual practice for me, and it opens me up. It makes me available. I could go on for hours about my relationship to endurance sports and how I think that that informs my spiritual life, my emotional life, my mental life. Do you have that kind of relationship with it, or how do you think about it? Absolutely. So I'm my best self when I'm surfing, when I'm running,

when I'm mountain biking, when I'm out in the broadest sense, when I'm out in the garden. And I find that I'm a better husband, I'm a better dad, I'm a better son. I have greater clarity. And so I'm like stuck. And maybe you can help me think through this for a moment. On one hand, I feel like, gosh, if I spent all this time with just me, man, that's a little selfish because I can you know use that time to be there for my wife for my son for those in my congregation my friends my family but then I also find that when I choose to do that and frankly I've just when I do choose to do it I just wake up earlier than everybody else you know and try to get that timeically, then I am more available and I'm

actually a better person. So I slide back and forth between those two things where it's the guilt of all the time away. But then I'm like, but I'm no good to anybody right now because I'm not giving from a full well, you know, it's dry and it's drained. Yeah, you can't take care of others unless you're taking care of yourself. And if you're getting sustenance from this activity, that makes you a better servant. So it's part and parcel of who you are and what you do. Now that scale may slide too far. You know, when you start, when you go, okay, I'm going to go from the 50 to the hundred and then you're trained, you know, like there's extremes, of course, but at what point do you get what you need

from it in order to be that optimal servant, to be as available as you possibly can for your congregation, for your family, et cetera? You know, like I interviewed Russell Simmons for the podcast, and we spoke about this in the context of yoga and meditation. He's like, it's non-negotiable. He's like, I don't care if I have a meeting. I don't care if it's the most important meeting ever. If it conflicts with yoga, I'm going to yoga. And he's like, it makes me a better servant overall. I'm willing to make that sacrifice. And he has no, he's not, you know, he doesn't have pangs of guilt over it. He's just like, this is the way that it is. And this has

been proven true in my life. And this is the rule that I adhere to. That's so good. You know, and it's the irony that I'm talking about grace and love and, you know, God doesn't design us to be motivated through guilt. And yet here I slide right back into it, you know, you're a human being. Yes. You know what I mean? Yeah. So, and I, and I do too, you know what i mean yeah so and i and i do too you know what i mean like when i'm when i'm out when i'm out training i'm like i should be with my kids or when i'm riding my bike up pch and i see the people surfing i should be like i should be served like whatever it is i'm not doing is what i feel like i should be, you know what I mean? Absolutely. I don't know how you're going to solve that. Yeah.

Well, I think, look, we're in community right now, and we're sharing this real thing that we're, and you've invited so many people into your community through the podcast, and I think there's something powerful about that when you can open up and you can say me too. I mean, that phrase is so powerful. You know, I have people pleased too. And I, you know, there's moments of, am I being selfish?

Well, me too. And there's, oh, you too? Okay. But I appreciate the fact that you've come here and been open and vulnerable and honest. You know, as somebody who is, you know, quote unquote, a pastor. Okay, so does that mean this person has all the answers and they're supposed to be able to be answering all the questions that I have? And you've come here and said, I don't know this, or this is what I'm struggling with,

and shared your humanity. And I have a lot of respect for that, that you came here in that spirit. That's how my mama raised me. We got to like bring this sermon to a close pretty soon here, but I don't want to end this without kind of tapping into a little bit about, you know, I want you to share like what do you want people to, when people think about the Bible, when they think about Jesus, when they think about Christianity, how do you want them to feel and what is it that you want them to understand about it that has been important to you that you think gets missed or gets lost in the morass of cultural obfuscation around these ideas? Yeah. Well, I've just been overwhelmed with these truths that are numerous.

First, that you're more loved than you'll ever imagine. Like I think about my son who, as a one-day-old, couldn't wrap his mind around how much I, as a father, loved him. And yet I loved him because I loved him because I loved him because I loved him. And so there's this desire, this longing that people would just know that they're loved, that they're enough, that there's this beautiful passage in Zephaniah. It says that, don't you know that God rejoices over you with singing, which is such a beautiful picture.

So that's the first one, that people are more loved than they'll ever imagine. Second, there's so much meaning all around us, and to live a life filled with wonder and curiosity. Ask questions. I mean, I think that, who said it, the examined life? The unexamined life is a life not worth it. Is it Socrates? It's old school. Yeah, it's old school.

I don't know who exactly said that. So just this idea of search, ask questions, explore, spend time with strangers, get to know different cultures. To me, that's God's longing for us longing to be with the other and there's just so much beauty in that and that's why I think that I've so respected your podcast because you you've brought such a diversity of voices to that I think is a model just for healthy community and then third is simply that people can live into their indispensability. I think that, you know, there's only one Rich Roll. There's only one Drew Sams. There's,

you know, only one each of the listeners. And there's people in their life that I'm not in their life. And they can make such an impact through their words and through being present, through listening so much more. And I feel like if, if we were more mindful as humans to the impact that we can make relationally in our choices, it would just be such a better world as we go through. Yeah.

I think people feel disenfranchised and, and feel like their story doesn't matter or their vote doesn't count or who cares what I think. I think you're right. I think we all have a story and I think we all should be telling our story. I think we have stories we tell about ourselves and then we have different stories we tell the world about ourselves i think the the sort of spiritual journey is to align those things in a healthy way and to overcome whatever negative story it is that you're telling yourself about yourself into telling a more expansive one and then ultimately uh uh allowing that story to be in service of others. That's so good.

In service of others. They feel muted or they feel disempowered and they don't feel like their story is important to anybody else. And then when they try to unmute it through certain ways that they feel like this is the only culturally impactful way where I've got to somehow project this certain persona, whether in person or social media, they're still on mute. objected sense of self that is that, you know, in my own experience, it was the, who's the me that you want me to be in this moment, chameleon-esque type thing. But there's so much value and beauty in people. Yeah. Or I would think, you know, from your perspective as sort of, you know, looming over your flock, so to speak, I think most people are really

disconnected from who they are. And social media just further confuses that. And there's a sense of who they think they're supposed to be. But it's that journey back to the garden, right? Like, who are you really? Let's connect you with who you really are. Like, take my hand and let's walk down the path and try to do that math for you. You know, how can I get you back to who, you know, you were as a child? What was important to you then? What brought you joy? How can you connect more deeply with that as a means to, you know, not only express that more fully in your life, as a way of you know moving you in the direction towards tapping into that you know authentic self that will allow you to discover the best trajectory for you through life my church should hear that what you just said

i don't think i could repeat that but anyway yeah right yeah, right. I mean, it's that journey to self-actualization, right? But it's a connecting back to that original self. Yeah, there's this sense of, yes, I'm a pastor. That's true. But is that the truest part of me? Yes, I'm a dad. Yes, I'm a husband. Yes, I surf. Yes, I'm a dad. Yes, I'm a husband. Yes, I, I serve. Uh, yes, I'm a vegan before

dinner, you know, but is that, I mean, those are true things, but is that the core of my identity? And that's, that's something that I care a lot about too. And I, I talk about frequently of, you know, really to get to the truest sense of who we are. We're not what we own. We're not what we do. Uh, we're not a reputation. There's something much, much deeper, much more profound, much more eternal, much more sacred, much more earthy, you know, and it's this, as I would describe it, it's that we're beautiful beings created with purpose in the image of God. There's deep value and deep responsibility.

And then this idea of life can be an opportunity to unlock it, not only for yourself, but to help others unlock it for themselves. That's why, as you often say, unlocking the most authentic version of yourself is it. I mean, that's the core. It's the truest part of who we are. So when someone comes into your church who's struggling, how do you take that person on and lead them? obstacles that people sort of self-errack or create for themselves that are barriers towards unlocking that best self within. Yeah. Well, I think it fits under those three categories.

I am what I own, you know, and some people who, you know, they've just lost their job and they come in and they say, you know, it's not about losing their job, but it's the fact that they're going to have to move out of their zip code. And now they're not in Brentwood, but they're Brentwood adjacent, and all of a sudden, or now I'm on the south side of the boulevard. I mean, they're devastated because they've put their identity in, you know, my sense of self is this is who I am. This is where I live. And that's such the, the, the dark side of consumerism because, you know, these things

don't just have value in and of themselves. You know, we, we accumulate these things so that we have a sense of identity, um, through the clothes we wear, what we drive, where we live. But it's more than that. It's our reputation. And that's my story. Here's the grapevine that somebody said something about me

and now I'm devastated. So now I've got to somehow fix that. And I see that so often. Or it's what we do. It's our accomplishments. And so, you know, in our church, we've got a lot of highly, highly accomplished people that sit on multiple boards. And they're the head of corporations. And, you know, they're pro athletes. And they're, you know're doing really well in Hollywood.

And they're devastated because they haven't gotten the part or the promotion or the raise or whatever it is. And for me, my approach is simply being with somebody, asking questions, listening, and being willing to walk with them on the journey of peeling back the layers of the onion, so to speak, just to get to the core of who they are and sharing my story along the way, giving people permission to be vulnerable themselves. Yeah, I think that's important. Because that opens up the door to make it safe. When you deal with high achievers, it's not safe to be vulnerable you know and that tight grip

on a social identity premised upon zip code job car house all that sort of stuff. It's so deeply imbued into that sense of self that to even begin to parse that or to get somebody to understand that they are more than that and that that is actually irrelevant is very difficult. When it gets stripped away, it gets a little bit easier, more painful, of course. But when you're part of that, you know, matrix of interconnected, you know, sort of the social strata of, especially in West LA, when we're talking about Los Angeles, like this is like, this runs deep, man. So deep. You know, there was this moment a year and a half ago where I did a sermon on, on one hand, so many of us have no idea the level of oppression that has been caused by what we're wearing to church today. And I talked about how, you know, we have no idea.

And we're culpable for that. We just don't even know that we're culpable. And we're culpable for that. We just don't even know that we're culpable. And I just kind of started sharing some stats and the realities of just the messiness of what we've created. And somebody came up to me afterwards really upset. And they said, you know, you don't know because this is what I do for a living, and I own this massive, massive, and I'm on the board for this massive, massive chain of stores,

and I visited those areas, and it's not true, and I want to talk to you about it. So I'm thinking, oh, man, what's this going to be like? So I'm literally speaking to somebody who's an expert in this field, but who is perpetuating, right. Right. You know, pushing those buttons and pushing those buttons. And they were, they were, are you talking about the garment industry specifically? The garment industry.

Yeah. Uh, very, very big and influential, you know, multiple, multiple brands. And, and, but the beauty of it is that he approached me, he didn't write me off. hands. And, and, but the beauty of it is that he approached me. He didn't write me off. Um, and we had lunch and it stretched for hours and we've become friends. And I see there's a work that's going on in his mind as he's beginning to process things. Um, you know, now that we're just on this journey together. So I'm on a journey, I'm just a dad, a husband, a pastor, and I'm exploring these things. And he has tremendous influence globally.

He's on the same journey as well. And the fact that we can invite one another without shame to self-reflect on those things. Well, that's how you move forward productively, right? First, you have to have a safe way to communicate in a productive way, right? and when there's space for that pointing fingers yes totally no because it could have it could have devolved to a you know back and forth email you know and then you lose the sense of humanity and the body language and of so much

of communication that happens so literally sitting down for a couple hours sharing a meal together was what unlocked it. And I think that the world talks about so much about what do you stand for, what do you stand against. And I would love if humanity could just sit longer and sit with people rather than just stand up, stand up, stand up. But let's sit with one another and talk and dialogue and go on this journey together. Did you see the documentary,

the true cost? I haven't seen that yet. Oh, you should, you definitely got to see it. Maybe I should sit down with this friend of mine and watch it together. Yeah. It's a documentary about the impact of fast fashion on,

you know, on human rights and on environmental rights, like just these, having these factories and this sort of perpetual machine of constantly turning out, not just new clothes all the time, but like super cheap clothes. And, you know, what is the meaning? What is the impact when you go to an H&M or one of those kinds of stores and buy a t-shirt and let's trace that back and see you know let's connect those dots all the way back to the you know proverbial garden that are now as I understand designed to wear out quickly so you can then buy the newer thing quicker right

right yeah of course and everything's a dollar you know everything's so cheap why is it so cheap. Why is it so cheap? And I don't know why this value, and frankly, I hear it a lot. See, this is a distortion among Christians, frankly, where there's such a high value of getting things cheap, almost like, and I see it culturally even beyond Christianity, where, oh my gosh, I got this shirt, and I got it for so cheap, that this value of cheapness is so accelerated beyond all the other things that we should be valuing. You know, and what's interesting is as I've chosen to be more mindful and intentional, and in some ways I have to save up longer to pay for things that do cost more. I have to save up longer to pay for things that do cost more.

You know, some people have accused me of, of being pretentious or like uppity. It's almost like, oh, well you're, you know, you're just, you're kind of a snob then if you have to have like sustainable clothing, is that just cause you want to like be hip and i you know and i sit with people i talked to them about it i said you or is it that it's actually more snobbish and self-centered uh ineptity to say no i want it now and i want it fast and i want it cheap and i want it you know yeah that's like caring about anything. That's an issue of how a narrative is getting framed incorrectly. You know what I mean? Because the idea that patronizing a business that's creating a sustainable product that isn't negatively impacting some indigenous community and is creating a product that will stand the test of time and

last longer, yeah, it's going to be more expensive. So you're pretentious for buying that? Or are you aligning your actions with your values in a very tactile, real way? Exactly. And this choice of, okay, I'm going to buy much less and I want it to last longer, you know, and I'm going to, sometimes I'm going to refuse things that are given to me as gifts and I want to recycle things and reuse things and repair things. And, you know, it's just such a different, different approach that, um, and, and maybe it's my self-recovering people pleaser sense that when somebody says you're just being uppity, I'm just, I'm, you know, that's their perspective.

That's speaking more about them than you. You know that, right? Yeah, that's good. Have you seen the Minimalism documentary? Yeah, so good. Yeah, it's good, right? So good. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So good. So True Cost. You got to watch True Cost. Yeah, that's my next one on the queue. All right, man. So we got to wrap this up. your cost. Yeah, that's my next one on the queue. All right, man. So we got to wrap this up. For somebody who is interested in your perspective, perhaps they want to learn more about where you're coming from. They want to tap into the Jesus energy. They want to learn more.

What can you tell them? Read the bible like what you know what is the what is the starting point for somebody who maybe is new to these ideas or maybe they're coming out of a negative you know association with a past church experience what's your suggestion yeah boy i i think that relationships are the key to it so So, you know, if truly 71% of Americans self-identify as Christian, then perhaps some listeners have co-workers or neighbors or friends that, you know, they wonder, like, are they Christian? But, you know, I think what happened for me was in college is, you know, I found some Christians that deeply were respectful and non-judgmental. So I'd say first, if they have people in their life, just ask questions to start there.

Man, the Bible is such a convoluted, seemingly from the surface, if you don't have the context and, you know, the background and the patience to begin to wade through it, you know, it can be overwhelming in some ways. And so for me to learn how to read scripture with other people that were mature was super helpful. You know, people can hit me up on Instagram, surfer Drew. Surfer Drew, man. And if you're in LA, can anybody just come and catch your sermon?

Yeah, Bel Air Church. They can look that up online. And we've got a killer, we call it a coffee lab and food space. There's just some really beautiful things. With beans that you hand grind. No, no, it's much better. I don't want to ruin it. My sister works there, and my brother-in-law actually run that, and it it's much better. I don't want to ruin it. My sister works there and my

brother-in-law actually run that and it got featured in Eater LA. It's called Parable Coffee Lab and they make everything from scratch and it's all vegan, vegetarian and just beautiful. But yeah, everyone's welcome. So we have such a variety of people that show up and are actually shocked that they show up and they say, you know, I thought it was going to be this, and I just feel loved and accepted and challenged and inspired. It's so much fun, which is odd to say it's so much fun when I'm talking about church. But, I mean, you know people like Anthony Zimitti, and it's just real-life people on the journey together.

He's a great dude. So what's the sermon going to be about this weekend? Do you spend the whole week writing it? What's that process like? So I get up really early in the morning. And actually, I do a lot of prayer because I feel like, man, who am I? I mean, it's this constant, who am I to get up in front of a group of people and share from my heart and from Scripture.

And so a lot of it is, you know, God, help me, give me wisdom. And I just, I'm voracious in my reading and research. And, you know, I love drawing upon a variety of things. And so we're in a series right now on the book of Ecclesiastes. There's two truths. There's the under the sun truth. It's kind of the human, non-spiritual point of view. What's work look like?

What's eating look like? What's pleasure look like? What's the meaning of life look like from a non-spiritual, just human point of view? But what does it look like from a divine perspective? And so this idea of two truths we've been exploring. So, yeah, I mean, it's the whole week. As I go throughout the week, I'm constantly allowing the experiences of my life and the community to speak into it. So often I'll go into a Sunday and the illustrations are from Saturday night, Friday morning, in the midst of the week.

It's a lot of creativity that I attribute to God as the source. Right. I mean, it is a lot of creativity. I mean, literally to come up with a new sermon every week every single week like basically coming up with a ted talk every week right along a long ted talk yeah yeah so i often i joke around i say you know i'm the full-time head of staff at bella church and then i volunteer as a senior pastor because i i mean i frankly i max my time in the leadership you know there's a church and a preschool and a huge staff and it's you know and I'm a young leader trying to I'm in no way

perfect and I make mistakes and I'm you know constantly I've got some great mentors in my life speaking into my leadership so then I you know it's super early in the morning late at night throughout the day it just it's this unfolding writing of itself and you know, it's super early in the morning, late at night, throughout the day. It's just this unfolding writing of itself. And, you know, I don't take up a manuscript and just read from it, but it just comes from me. And people say, you know, do you rehearse? Do you memorize it? And I said, well, if you were to tell me your life story, have you memorized it or do you know it?

And they said, well, I know it. I said, so you can tell me your life story without notes. And they're like know it and i said well i know it i said so you can tell me your life story without notes i'm like well yeah because i know it i said it's kind of like that where i just i try to internalize it and becomes part of who i am that it's from a place of knowing rather than memorizing well when i get back from ireland i'd love to come and hear you let's get anthony and let's go for a run. There you go. Hey, we're right at the end of Dirt Mulholland. That's where you

live? Well, the church is on Mulholland. Literally, I live right down the street. So that's where I start at the Nike Tower on top of Sullivan. That's cool. That's my turnaround point usually. Love it. So yeah, I come from this side and then I head that's usually I turn it around and bring it back.

So we'll make it happen. Love it. All right, cool. Honor to be with you, Rich. Thanks so much, man. Yeah, super fun, really inspirational. Thank you for being open and honest and vulnerable, like I said earlier. It's inspirational what you're doing.

It's really cool work, and I look forward to learning more about it and I want to see it first hand so if you'll have me absolutely cool you had me today yeah alright so you can check out drew surfer drew on Instagram where does the church have a website or any other place where you want to direct people who want to learn more yeah

bellatorchurch.org is a great place and my contact info is there. It's like anything. You can read about stuff online that is just a summary, but it's the real life of people that you get to know that's the real deal. So I would love to meet people in person if possible. And then the podcasts are on iTunes. Bellarchurch, people from all over, download it and listen to it. Oh, so you put then the podcasts are on iTunes. Bel Air Church, people from all over

download and listen to it. Oh, you put the sermons up on iTunes. Oh, that's cool. Yeah, definitely let people know that. I'm such a rookie at this, you know. I thought you went to USC for marketing. I know, man. I'm forgetting all these things. Yeah, Bel Air Church,

they can look it up. I think it's still under either bella church or bella presbyterian church and you know our whole catalog's there so the video and the audio of just my sermon and so it's crazy people will like be in town they're like dude i'm from north carolina i've been listening to your messages and i'm like you know that's surreal for me um and it's just great that that's out there to be blessing for people good talking to you we did it how do you feel's out there to be a blessing for people. Good talking to you. We did it.

How do you feel? Feeling great. Honored to be here. All right. Good. Honor. Cool, man. Peace.

Plants. All right, we did it. How are you guys doing? Was it good? You okay? I thought it was cool. I loved it. It was awesome, right?

If you enjoyed that conversation, give Drew a shout out and I'll put links up in the show notes. Again, check out our new meal planner, meals.richroll.com or click on meal planner on the upper menu on my website, richroll.com for just $1.90 a week. You can change your life, you guys. No downside there. If you would like to support this show and my work, there's a couple of simple ways to do it.

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roll to redeem your free trial set, which comes with a razor, five-blade cartridge, shaving gel, and post-shave gel. All you got to pay is shipping. I want to thank everybody who helped put on the show this week from behind the scenes. Jason Camiello for audio engineering and production and help with the show notes and configuring the website, Sean Patterson for graphics and theme music as always by Annalima. Uh, by the time you're listening to this, I will probably be right in the midst of competing in this, uh, Odolo race in Sweden. Um, this will go up, I think, uh, the evening before the competition. Uh, so I will catch you guys up on how that went on the flip side. I'm a little nervous. I'm a little scared. I'm excited. Uh, and just trying

to, uh, front load all these podcasts before I have to leave for Sweden, which is what I'm doing right now, but I'm just going on and on and on. I'm blathering. All right, you guys have a great week. I'll see you back here soon. Peace plants. Thank you.