The Rich Roll Podcast - Elite Endurance Master Cam Wurf On Effective Training, Achievable Goals, The Power Of Consistency, & What It Takes To Win

Episode Date: October 21, 2024

Cam Wurf is a paragon of endurance athleticism, a professional cyclist for INEOS Grenadiers, and an Ironman champion. This conversation explores Cam’s training strategies for Kona, discussing endurance sports' evolution, performance metrics, and elite training transparency. Cam offers insights on peak fitness at 41, tech's impact, emerging talents, the current cycling and triathlon landscape, and more. His leadership and maturity yield a perspective on balancing the demands of grand tours with Ironman races, offering aspiring athletes a glimpse into high-level endurance sports. Cam's enthusiasm for pushing limits is infectious. Enjoy! Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube Newsletter Sign-Up Today’s Sponsors:  NordicTrack: Transform your home fitness space with NordicTrack’s lineup of treadmills, bikes, rowers, and more 👉NordicTrack.com Momentous: 20% OFF all of my favorite products  👉livemomentous.com/richroll Squarespace: Use the offer code RichRoll to save 10% off your first purchase  👉Squarespace.com/RichRoll Airbnb: Your home might be worth more than you think 👉airbnb.com/host This episode is brought to you by Better Help: Listeners get 10% off their first month 👉BetterHelp.com/RICHROLL Check out all of the amazing discounts from our Sponsors 👉 richroll.com/sponsors Find out more about Voicing Change Media at voicingchange.media and follow us @voicingchange

So I recently revamped my home gym and I did it with some amazing products by NordicTrack. And I got to tell you, I'm really blown away by the quality of their machines. This is a company that for 50 years have been leaders in at-home fitness equipment. And my setup includes the amazing commercial X32i treadmill. And part of what makes it amazing is that it goes up to an insane 40% incline as well as a 6% decline. So imagine a workout where you put the treadmill at 40% and start marching up. It's unreal. I also have the S27i studio bike with a 20% incline and a negative 10% decline, as well as the smooth, quiet RW900 rower. So cycling between the three of these products has just been amazing for my fitness. But what really brings these machines to life is the iFit Pro membership. They have a new AI coach

that helps you set goals and create personalized workout plans. And it kind of acts like this amazing accountability partner all through texting. With iFit, I also get to follow my world-class trainer pals and past podcast guests, people like Tommy Rives and Knox Robinson. And the machines actually automatically adjust to match the trainer's intensity. And iFit learns my preferences over time. It even reads my heart rate and adjusts intensity to keep me in the right zone at the right time, completely removing any guesswork from every single workout. NordaTrack together with iFit offer a personalized fitness experience for body, heart, and mind with thousands of workouts,

including strength, yoga, Pilates, and mindfulness. So stop stalling your progress with Nordic track. And I fit just press start and let the trainers and tech do the rest. Head on over to Nordic track.com slash rich roll to experience personalized fitness. artists, and visionaries all committed to fostering meaningful exchanges and sharing thought-provoking content.

Voicing Change Media will feature shows like Soul Boom with Rainn Wilson, Mentor Buffet with Alexi Pappas, Feel Better Live More with Dr. Rangan Chatterjee, and The Proof with Simon Hill. You can explore this network and all its offerings at voicingchange.media. Set goals that you know you can do and hit them. And then you'll often find you can do more, which is really great for morale. Cam Wurf is perhaps the most versatile elite endurance athlete in the world. Anything you want to do, if you want to do it well, you got to commit to

it for a long period of time and continue to get better and better and better. Truly a one-of-one, a guy who transitioned to professional cycling after a career as an Olympic rower, and now serves up domestique duties for the Ineos Grenadiers squad, while simultaneously racking up wins and podiums on the Ironman circuit as one of triathlon's all-time greats. You know, when we're in the race, it's like you've got to do what you've got to do to get to where you need to be to give yourself a chance to try and win this thing. This week, Cam returns to Kona to once again contend for the Ironman World Championship title.

So I thought it would be super fun to have him back on the show to share his predictions on how this legendary race just might unfold, how he maintains world-class fitness at 40, as well as his enthusiasm for training and racing as a lifelong full-time professional athlete, while also balancing his life as a husband and a father. I've been doing this for a lot of years

and I've enjoyed doing long days of training since I was 15, 16 years old. It's one thing for people to copy what I do on a daily basis, but they don't understand what was done in the past. Cam is just absolutely indefatigable. His enthusiasm for life training racing is infectious. And this one whether

you're simply someone who's fitness curious or you're a seasoned hardcore athlete has invaluable takeaways for everybody. We're really at the cutting edge of a sport where we're just pushing the envelope so it's quite difficult to sort of look at a blueprint and go, that's gonna work. I mean, that might put you at a certain level, but if you wanna win, you've gotta really. All right, we're rocking. So this is the most last minute spontaneous podcast I've ever done.

I just kind of like hit you up. What are you doing right now? And you came over cause you're training in the neighborhood in between workouts in your lead up to Kona, man. So thanks for carving out a little bit of time. Yeah. You got me on a good day, not to give too much away to my opposition, but it's one of the few days of the week. I only trained twice. Yeah. Oh, really? Usually it's three. Yeah. It's all day, every day. Yeah. Four workouts in a day.

But you got to start toning it down a little bit. What are we, we're like two weeks out? Yeah, two and a half weeks now. So, I mean, it's funny. Do you have a different kind of taper than the normal endurance athlete? Yeah, I think so. I mean, I prefer to feel like I've, I need to keep the engine running.

I feel like I'm not good at sort of resting and I feel like I'm not doing enough. So it's more of a maybe take out some intensity. You're not doing enough, So it's, it's more of a, you're not doing enough. You're not doing enough. Yeah, that's the problem. Yeah. So no, I struggle, but I mean, Nike, you know, a big thing with the running and that the running generally is still the cornerstone of, you know, the, the program, to be honest. And they've found with their experience with, with, with the running group that that two to three week out block is where you get a lot of bang for your buck. And that's not saying, okay, you got to do your biggest volume, but I think hitting

your quality sessions, you know, is really key in that time. So I actually look forward to this period because yeah, it is like two weeks out, two to three weeks, you're getting tired, you know, you just want to rest and to rest up for the race, but you know, you're also excited to do those sessions that tell you where you're at. Well, you're also excited to do those sessions that tell you where you're at. Well, ideally you're excited to do those sessions and tell you where you're at because you're hoping they're gonna tell you where you're at, you know, you're in a good place.

So, but as soon as you start to dial back a little bit, it's sort of worse before it gets better, right? You go through this fallow period where you feel like shit because your body's used to hitting it so hard. And it's a period of time in which you can't increase your aerobic capacity, but you can sharpen the tool and get a little bit faster and you kind of work on those details and your speed. Yeah. I also find just the little things you start losing time for as you get tired in a training cycle, you know, your mobility, your yoga, your stretching, you know, reading a bit more, you know, just making sure things

are organized. I really start to nail those things. And then mentally, I start to feel more prepared for the race by knowing that I'm doing those things properly as well when they've sort of probably gone to the wayside when you're just grinding out the, you know, the hours and hours in training. So, but yeah, I mean, that two to three week period is definitely an exciting time. And then, yeah, it's funny you say that because it's so true. I mean, yesterday I went through that moment. I usually do basically a six day week. You know, I train sort of six days straight and every day has some sort of purpose.

So, by the time I get to Sunday, you know, I'm a bit tired. Yeah. And Monday is your day off and I really enjoy that day off. But then Tuesday, you think you sort of think you're going to feel amazing and fresh, but I generally would actually feel the worst. And then it's not till today or tomorrow. Because the body's not used to being turned off. That's right. What are you doing? It's like more like today and tomorrow, where I start to feel that rest day really kicked in, you know, and you have a nice period in the middle of the week. And then it's all of a sudden you're hanging on again at the end of the week. So, yeah, I love it. I love it.

I love going through all that. What is your message to the average or the aspiring runner, endurance athlete, triathlete who, you know, flips open Instagram and sees lots of videos about, you know, people talking about like everything you ever heard is wrong and here's the workout you need to do, or here's the product that you'll never be able to be competitive without. Like you've been around so long, you've seen trends come and go.

Yeah. Obviously, you know, you're receptive to new good ideas and technologies that can help improve your performance, but what do you think people, where do you think people get confused or can kind of go awry in terms of like paying attention to that versus what you've learned and kind of earned over time to know what works?

Yeah, the biggest thing is consistency if you want to get to anything. I mean, people often start running and it hurts and so they stop. You know, that can take months. It can take even a year to get on top of things like that. I mean, I think just understanding that it takes time. I mean, like anything you want to do, if you want to do it well, you got to commit to it for a long period of time. And over a long

period of time, you'll just continue to get better and better and better. I mean, with people with busy lives, they work and they do everything. I think it's important. And I had to do this myself this year with the cycling team because the last couple of years I get frustrated. I'd get called into a race. Not that I'm annoyed about that, but I'm annoyed. Oh, I'm not swimming now. I'm not running as what I want. And I'd feel like I'm going backwards. Whereas in reality, I needed to realize, wow, I'm doing some of the biggest bike races on the planet, commit to them and get as fit as you can. And then you can take that back into your training, which is something I feel like I've done very well this year.

And the key change I made was a few non-negotiables that are very attainable each week, like a few sessions that I know will ensure at worst, I stay where I'm at, but still will potentially keep me getting better. And inadvertently, you end up actually being able to do more than that. So then you feel great about yourself. I think people often set expectations, whether it be diet extreme and training extreme or getting up at 3am or whatever. And when then you don't do it, yeah, and you feel like you're letting yourself down. I mean, set goals that you know you can do and hit them. And then if you're hitting them and you're hitting them comfortably,

then you start to look and go, you know, I'm feeling good. I'm feeling like I'm getting fit or I feel like I can do that and bounce back and train hard this week, you know. But it's really been a big change for me, you know, setting out these, more with during the cycling period, okay, you want to get these three swims in a week, you want to get these two runs. It was basically, I want to get a longer run in each week and one fast work. Then if you can run after that, they can just be easy little whatever runs around the block just to keep everything moving. A couple of gym sessions because that keeps everything. Then obviously, when you're home, you can get back into your normal routine. You're never going to go backwards

from that. And the same with swimming. And I think for people, especially with their busy lives, you know, you just set, because I hear it a lot at swimming at Tower 26, a lot of guys, oh, I'm burned out on this. I'm thinking, well, I'm not surprised. Like, I find it hard to get up at 5.45 and come to the pool. You guys do this, go to work, have three kids, whatever else. I mean, that must be really exhausting, you know? So yeah, as I said, just set attainable goals and then you'll often find you can do more, which is really great. And extend your timeline, maybe, right? Like everyone, they're thinking, I want to do this thing in six months or whatever. But if you start thinking in terms of years,

I mean, big picture to me and tell me what you think, to your point, like consistency is the most important thing. So create something that you can replicate every single day that's not gonna disrupt the rest of your life. And then any increase in volume or intensity beyond that, pick those moments wisely. And you need that, you need those intense sessions, you need to increase your volume,

but not to the point where it begins to threaten your ability to be consistent, right? So you have to do that like very gradually over time and learn about what you can handle and what you can't handle, not just physically, but in the context of all the other things that you're doing in your life. Your health, your wealth. I mean, if you're sick and you're injured and whatever,

you can't do anything. And so I- Have you ever been over-trained? Not to my knowledge. I mean, I'm probably constantly over-trained. I'm probably chronically over-trained. No, you have way too much energy. Like you're in the middle of your training day,

you pop in here, you're like, you know, you're just lit. The last time you did this, you came in, it was like nighttime. Like it was like seven at night or something like that. And you threw down like four espressos. And I felt like you could have talked for four hours. I think I texted you, I was like, did you sleep last night after that?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I, yeah, I don't think so. I mean, I, Kipchoge is a great one to follow with that. I mean, it's always leave a little bit for tomorrow. You know, don't, what do they say? You know, train to race, don't race to train. Yeah, so, and to do that, you need to make sure you have that month,

you know, days and days and weeks and weeks and months and months and years and years. Is it like a weekend hero race day zero? Precisely. Yeah. So I think that's fundamental. But when you do these group rides though, everyone's like, you know, they've got it out for you.

Yeah, absolutely. They want to measure themselves. More so when I was, you know, cycling. But I think now because they know I've probably come from swimming or something, it's a bit more – people are a bit more respectful actually. They actually kind of admire that you can go and do that or you operate at that level kind of in every discipline. But that's just, as I said, I mean our sport is incredibly professional now

and we're pushing limit. I mean eight hours used to be great. Now if you can't go 7.40 on an average day, you're not in it., if you can't go 740 on an average day, you're not in it. And if you can't go 730 on a really good day, well, you're not going to win the biggest races and that's happening consistently. And yeah, I'm really proud that I'm still able to be part of the conversation. I'm sure none of the guys, you know, a lot, a lot of people would expect me to win, but I know they can't count me out either. So that's good. One of the things that feels different, I don't know if it's this year specifically, but over like the last couple of

years, but really I think more so this year than any other year, and we were chatting about this a couple of minutes ago, is the transparency with which a lot of the elite athletes are sharing kind of what they're doing. So we've got Lionel Sanders, who's doing his famous vlog. I watched a couple of those episodes this morning, not even knowing that you were coming in today. And he talks a lot about, you literally get to see everything he does

and he shows his whoop scores and what he's eating and all that kind of stuff. And he also talks about his evolution with his relationship with his own training, like going through periods where he was too influenced by what other people were doing and learning how to like figure out what works for him. And, you know, over like kind of looming over everybody's

head is like what the Norwegians are doing, right? And there's this temptation, like, they're doing all this next level stuff. Like I need to do that, or I need to do this. And maybe some of those things work, maybe some of them don't, but at some point you have to like figure out what works for you. And I see you as somebody who is a little old school

in that regard, like you've been doing this for a long time. There are certain things we know work and you can, to the point of sharpening your tool, there are other things out there that are kind of, you know, coming up point of sharpening your tool, there are other things out there that are kind of, you know, coming up in terms of science and technology where you perhaps can get a little bit of a percent or two edge. Yeah.

But fundamentally, like the work is the work. Yeah, I always like to use the Nike, the carbon shoe evolution, you know. And when that came out, it was basically designed to allow us to run more often at a higher level, which would make you fitter and stronger. It wasn't just like a magic pill you took and all of a sudden you ran faster. And so I've been doing this for a lot of years and I've enjoyed doing long days of training since I was 15, 16 years old. And you're 40 now, right?

41, yeah. So 25 years I've been putting that stuff in the body. So, it's one thing for people to copy what I do on a daily basis, but they don't understand what was done in the past. And I think also what, you know, I kind of sensed you might have asked a question like this on the drive out and I was thinking about the sport. And I mean, I think we're really at a cutting. And a lot of it has been down in the Norwegians. But I think a lot of us have had an input in this, of the sport going to a new level.

You know, even from my perspective with the bike, you know, that did change when I came in. And obviously then the guys- You could take it for granted for a long time that you were going to dominate on the bike. And that's no longer- That's no longer the thing. But what we saw was I kind of dominated and then guys learn how to ride as

quick, but still run as fast. So stay well ahead of me, you know, like, and then that, so that, and then that's just kept going. And that's sort of the swimming, as you know, it's very hard for that to move much. They're already at a very high level because most guys come from a very high swimming background and triathlon swimming, they end up actually swimming less than before. So the chances of that improving is minimal, whereas the bike and the run. So as far as the training goes, we're really at the

cutting edge of a sport where we're just pushing the boundaries. So the reality is there's no real science, there's no real blueprint, no one really knows, you know, from, it was probably Odeira previously, you know, where you Craig Alexander's and, you know, your Norman Stadler's and Chris McCormick's were winning Kona where there was like a bit of a pattern to it and it was who got it right. You know, we're finding now that like everyone's really pushing the envelope. So, it's quite difficult to sort of look at a blueprint and go, that's going to work. I mean, that might put you at a certain level, but if you want to win, you've got to really try something different. And so I think that's on the individual

to be able to, and that's why I love about Lionel and the way he's approaching it now, listening to himself and understanding because some days you got to work harder. Other days days you got to be like, no, I need to take it easier. And I know from a personal perspective, I feel like I've been much smarter this year of when I don't need to train hard, I'm not training hard, but when I do need to go, I really go. And that is probably been my biggest change more recently. But, you know, I'm able to do that, like you say, because almost 25 years of base that I can rely on that I don't need to be topping up on that part anymore. I can be tuning the engine a bit more. Yeah. So when you say that's the biggest change, meaning you're doing more like threshold speed work than you have in the past?

I definitely am doing more speed work, more harder work, and then also much more easier work. I very rarely actually operate at the intensities that we race and I'm at. You're either way above it or below it. Obviously, there's a time and a place to teach the body and remind the body how to do that. But I've found that, especially as I got older, it's very easy to get used to just grinding out the days. You know, you can get very good at just grinding, grinding, grinding, go at a decent pace for a long time. But at the end of the day, it doesn't maybe make you as sharp as what other guys are that are coming into the sport, you know, from a more Olympic distance background or a speed background. So you need to evolve and, um, yeah. And it's, and it's been really fun, you know,

I mean, all this talk of VO2 and longevity, exactly. I'm 41. I do want to live a long time. So absolutely. I want to keep my VO2. I had a great discussion about that with a guy, um, last night, um, a friend of mine who's, who's big in the altitude space and we were talking about, you know, what I'm trying to do is just keep it at the optimal level. What is your VO2 max? So I'm still around six liters, a bit over six liters. I actually did four tests in two days at Nike earlier in the year back in February. And it hasn't changed since I was, you know, first tested in when I was 18 to 20. I mean, it's bubbled along through different sports ups and downs and whatever, but the baseline, the overall size. So then that equates

to, you know, high seventies, if I'm a bit fat in the off season to, you know, high eighties, maybe low nineties when I'm, you know, trimmed up and ready to go. It's not the hundreds like Christian, but yeah, I mean, it's pretty high and it stayed that way for 25 years. Right. An athlete at your level, like your VO2 max is pretty static, right? It's not something you need to like check that often. Like it kind of is where it's at. There's a lot of discussion now about VO2 max in the context of longevity, but in elite performance, I think there might be some confusion about the frequency with which like someone like yourself needs to test for that. And that came out in that podcast

between Peter Attia and Tade. Did you listen to that? Yes. Where it felt like Peter was a little surprised that Tade doesn't really pay attention to that or think about that. But it wasn't surprising to me. Like he's, all he needs to do is test it

like once every couple of years or whatever. It's like, that's not moving that much. It's more about like heart rate and power and then on top of that, like HRV and things like that for recovery. But the other kind of shockwave that came out of that was the revelation that his like zone two pace is 340 Watts. But guys like you have to be like around 300, right?

It's not like you're not like that much below something like that. Well, no, we're not, we're probably even, I'm gonna be bigger than him so I can probably do more. So what is your like normalized power in your zone two? Well, I mean, to be honest, I don't do sessions like him, but if you look at an Ironman, some of my best bike splits,

you know, where I've ridden quite well, or been in shape have been 320, 330 watts. And you're doing that on a time trial bike. So you could probably add, you know, a certain number of watts, but then you're also running a two something marathon, you know, 250, 240s marathon. So if you look at, and in theory, we're basically zone two, you know, I mean, my average heart rate in an Ironman is around 150 to 160. So a bit above, of course, there's a bit of a racy element, but you're sort of sitting between that 140, 160 zone, you know, the whole day. So in theory. So that was very impressive to hear his numbers, but also not really surprising.

I think what's more impressive about Taddei's numbers, which is what people would not really understand when they say it, but he can do 500 watts for 20 minutes or something crazy like that. Honestly, there's a lot of people that can do that kind of power for that long. Maybe his repeatability at it might be at a higher level than most. But I would imagine that, particularly in our sport, because it's very focused on that type of effort, I would imagine there's a lot of triathletes

that are very similar to that, but where he separates himself. As accelerations. And then his ability to quickly recover from those accelerations and get down into that zone two and feel comfortable. And do it again. That's what for me really is setting him.

I mean, I think we looked at Kip Choge. I mean, as the greatest endurance athlete for a very, very long time and still is. You know, I mean, obviously he's had a difficult few marathons. I know he's determined to fight back and try and win again next year. And a guy like that, if they're going to line up, you never count them out.

But you'd have to say that at the moment, Tadej Pogacar is probably the greatest endurance athlete, showing the most amazing endurance sort of performances you know in that that kind of space when you talk about a high performance athlete yeah um i mean i guess you know you got inger britson and these other guys but i think pogacar and his dominance is um and the way he's doing it a year for that guy unreal yeah yeah and just so great for the sport he is just a great ambassador for the sport. I listened to that podcast when I was doing the run I talked to you about the other day. I listened to Ryan Holiday actually jogging

up to Nike missile site and then I put on the podcast for Peter Atiyahs to go down Westridge. But I just love the way he talked about Jonas Vinegaard and how, and it just shows the guy's intellect that, yes, he felt like Jonas said he obviously had his crash and had his injury, but he was probably able to get back on the bike and train properly very quickly. Yet he acknowledged that the fact that he'd missed that time meant he was limited in his ability to back those efforts up, where Taddei had had the perfect preparation,

winning a Giro and training and whatever else, which gave him the ability to race at that level over three weeks. But Jonas was seeing like his best numbers, despite the crash and all of that. Exactly. But his ability to respond to those surges, he just couldn't match it. And do it again and again and again.

But that's also, you know, Taddei staying on edge, knowing I've got to probably still get better because Jonas next year will that's also you know today staying on edge knowing i've got to probably still get better because jonas next year will be better you know so yeah no he's just a he's just a class actor around that guy yeah it's really fantastic for the sport just beginning you know yeah it's like a whole new era yeah yeah i mean we would again you know you had this discussion all the time and it's all this about you know who's who's going to beat him or who's going to beat these guys in the tour. And I, and it's, of my opinion, you know, it's probably a guy most likely that we haven't heard of, you know, we might get some guys that decide to focus more on the tour, say like a Tom Peacock or obviously Remco is already there. You know,

there's a bunch of highly talented riders in the Peloton that could potentially start challenging or being a part of the conversation. But as far as anyone that can maybe do what he's doing in the future, probably be maybe no one. I mean, it's taken a long time since he's arrived, but it's likely someone that we've never heard of

because he's so good at the moment. As somebody who, who mixes it, mixes it up in the Peloton with these guys, Remco, Jonas, Tade, what do you see or know about who they are? Cause you know them personally that like maybe, you know, people like ourselves who just read about it and watch them on television, like don't understand about what, what distinguishes them and makes them so much better. And Pitcock also. Yeah, I mean, obviously there's a bunch of them.

Especially after the Olympics and his mountain bike win, which was incredible. Yeah, I mean, well, quickly, I took my son to that. Yeah, I know you were there. Yeah, I miss you were there. I was in Paris, I was at the Red Bull house watching it live, but I couldn't get over to see it. It was unreal.

I mean, the craziest thing was I had, so I'm running around with wide. He doesn't really like, he's four. He doesn't really like the crowds. So we had good tickets. We could sort of move around where we wanted. And it was, there was this drop off and, you know, with the Olympic rings on, I thought, how cool to get a photo. So he's on there. I'm getting the photo. He comes along and I snapped the photos and I quickly kind of look through them. And I see there's Tom off his bike, mid-air jumping off this thing.

So he'd like had the flat tire, you know, until that point, it was sort of seemed like a foregone conclusion, the race. Like he'd got to the front, he was about to drop them and that was it. And he's made it, jumps off the bike last second. Like the frame, he was probably half a foot from the edge and he's still on the bike and somehow he gets off and jumps yeah because he knew that if he landed on

that rim it was probably going to explode it and it could have been really bad so he obviously changed it and then the whole race dynamic just changed but just to see what he's like determination to fight back and claws back then gets passed again and then like that was the crazy thing he did that attack on that last lap that looked like it was done and Koretsky responded and got back in front of him and Koretsky hits a tree and get Tom gets passed but then he passes him again he looked just so much better than Tom and then Tom finds a way to you know brush part and I mean to be there and to, you know, brush part. And I mean, to be there. And my son, you know, Tom's girlfriend, Bethany, has babysat him when he was young up until he was,

you know, two or three years old. And so he spent a lot of time with her and Tom. And he just like, to have that experience as that kid, like he knows Tom so well, you know, and still does see him a lot, you know, and to witness that. But like, what is happening? Yeah, exactly. Wait, this is my babysitter? Like, I don't understand what's going on. That's his Olympic experience, you know,

like to know the guy that won. All my friends win gold medals. Pretty much. Well, the next, a couple of days later, we went to watch the triathlon and obviously Hayden Wild is a guy in Andorra that I train with all the time. And his girlfriend, Hannah, spends a lot of time with us at the house. She stayed with us in Tassie. She came down for the half Iron I train with all the time. And his girlfriend, Hannah, spends a lot of time

with us at the house. She stayed with us in Tassie. She came down for the half Ironman there earlier in the year. So Wyatt, again, has spent a lot of time with them. And we went and watched that. And Hayden, it looked like he'd won that. Alex, she passed him on the blue carpet. His perception of the Olympics. So since then, it's just been, dad, I want you to go to the Olympics. I'm going to go to the Olympics. You know, Tom and Hayden are his heroes. What's the matter with you, dad? Yeah, exactly.

Why weren't you there? And I said, okay, mate, well, maybe we'll stick at it. I did it a long time ago. Yeah, we'll try and get to LA. But last time we were here, and I know you've talked about it since, like you still have your eye on somehow getting into LA 28.

Yeah, and there's a bit of an exciting development there. I mean, the rowing was one thing I thought about, but seeing the way the Olympic triathlon panned out, you know, with Hayden and Alex, they both actually basically had a helper. They had someone there to help them. You know, they had a guy that would swim basically pretty close to them and then put them in the position for the run. And I think that that type of event, particularly the Olympics, that's dynamic is going that way because there's very few guys that can win, you know, that are capable of it. And we've actually got a very exciting young prospect from Tasmania that I was, you know, that's when I was home over the summer,

Australian summer, Jack Woodbury is his name. He's 16, probably one of the best track runners we've seen at that age. He's actually doing the Junior Worlds next week. He's at 16. So in theory, he's got three years as a junior. Like he is phenomenal. And LA potentially looms as being quite a big favorite. I mean, if I could paint a script of a dream scenario you know to make the Olympic team and be able to help him I mean I no idea if I'd be good enough

it would require a huge sort of shift in preparation and all of that but it would be definitely something that would motivate me to try you know to to be there to support him um I mean he'd only be 19. I'd be 45, 44. So, you know. It's a great story though. Especially being Tasmanian. So that's definitely something that is now, yeah, got some fuel to the fire

and makes me swim a little hard and run a bit quicker. You know, the things I'd need to do to try to make that happen. As a longtime vegan, I've learned to pay close attention to not only the amount of my protein intake, but the quality. And in my experience, many plant-based protein supplements out there are just over-processed. They're full of additives, which is why I favor Momentus. Unlike other plant-based proteins, Momentus' formula is third-party tested for heavy metals and made from a 70-30 ratio of pea to rice protein to provide a complete amino acid profile with excellent mixability and taste. No fillers, no additives. What you see on the label is just exactly what you get.

And what you get is exactly what's used by over 90% of NFL teams, Tour de France champs, and Olympians. The pros and elites favor Momentous for the same reasons I do. And because Momentous is third-party tested for purity and formulated in collaboration with the pros and other leading experts. So if you're like me and you want to take supplements that are made by and used by the best in the world, go to livemomentous.com to save up to 36% off your first subscription order of protein or creatine. And if you don't want to subscribe, you can still get 20% off all my favorite products. platform that helps entrepreneurs and creators stand out and succeed online. It's a digital world, everybody, and having a strong presence online is not just important, it's absolutely crucial, which is why I'm really excited about Squarespace's new design intelligence feature. design intelligence feature. It's kind of like having a personal design expert, combining decades of design know-how with cutting-edge AI to help you create a website that truly reflects your

vision. What I find equally impressive is Squarespace Payments. This function has revolutionized how to handle transactions online. You can start accepting payments quickly and easily with options like Apple Pay and Afterpay that are built right in. And it's just perfect for those of us who want flexibility without the hassle. Also, let us not forget about getting found online. That is important, and Squarespace has addressed this with powerful SEO tools that automatically optimize your site with meta descriptions and site maps. It's all about helping you reach the right audience, especially if you're not a tech wizard. Curious? Head on over

to squarespace.com for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, visit squarespace.com slash richroll to save 10% on your first purchase. so back to the original question which is what makes those guys different from your like you know point of view of being somebody who who is like in the mix with them yeah so it seems that the the biggest difference the the raw numbers yeah they're pretty phenomenal like the the actual power they can do but the the way they can deliver it so much more often than in the past, the way they can stay at that super high level for a long, you know, every day is hard. Back in the old days, the races used to be, you know, a couple of days hard, then maybe an easier day and everyone was pretty happy to do that. Whereas now these guys are happy

to race hard every single day, you know, and, and honestly, the overall power numbers are not crazily different on the big days, but it's just, you might have seven straight instead of two or three straight. So their, um, fatigue resistance, for example, is quite phenomenal. And I think that just comes from, you know, very young age of just right, you know, growing up in an era where that started to come into the sport and they're just conditioned for that. And you've got the older guard that were used to the old way and have to try to adapt. So they're kind of struggling a bit to bridge the gap. We saw that with Tade because he would make these aggressive moves

like unnecessarily, like early in the race. Like why are you, why are you throwing down here? Like you have to think about what, how you're gonna feel in two weeks or whatever. And that was confusing for a lot of people and considered like brash or irresponsible, but he would consistently back it up, right? And so it's like, all right, well, this is a new thing. Like we're not used to seeing people

being unnecessarily aggressive. We're used to seeing people really, you know, conserve their energy and kind of cautiously approach the race if like the yellow jersey is the goal. Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, knowledge of training and performance and how fast people can go. I mean, these guys have all again grown up in that era where they know that. They know what Chris Froome was doing. They know what these guys were doing. They could go out and practice it and practice it and practice it, you know,

and then figure out how to be better and better and sort of really raise the level of the sport. One just thing about them all is they're all incredibly polite and lovely guys to speak to in the bunch as well. They're very likable. You know, it's- That's different too.

Like Lance has talked about how confusing that is for him. Yeah. Like these guys are hugging each other and they're buddies and he's like, what is happening? There is a lot of that. And the fact is though, that helps you in the Peloton because people are kind of give you some space. They kind of wait to see what you're gonna do.

They, you know, they have respect for these guys and kind of almost allow them to race the way they want to race, which is a smart tactic on their behalf. It's a political advantage. Exactly, as opposed to being a bit of a, you know, boss and an a-hole and whatever else and sort of, and then you've got the whole group racing against you. You know, these guys, yeah, they're just,

it's the same with Van Der Poel, Wout Van Aert. You know, they're just really gentlemanly racers that are very, very good. And I guess the sport to a large extent allows them to put on their show. But yeah, I think to your point, a big thing's been they've had the knowledge of like more so than in the past, say in the Lance era where you could read about what he did, you know,

a time up a certain climb or something. But really, you couldn't quantify it. Power meters were rare. Heart rate monitors were something, I guess. But you know, we didn't really have a lot of information. Whereas now, these guys just have so much data. They can reverse engineer anything on Strava. They can do all this stuff and they've just had, and then COVID, I guess, helped because they had that time to really just train. And we've obviously had a period before Kona of endurance sport, I think in general, and a post kona period where the whole endurance world

has just gone to another level where people just had time to put that work in and try to match what the best people can do. But as I said, there's a limit to the physical ability of any human, but the ability to do it more often seems to be what is being exploited. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Tough year for Ineos. Yeah. Rebuilding year. Like what's, what's it like on the team bus? Like what's happening? What is the vision for the year to come? Yeah. It's a, it's a tough one. And same last couple of years, it hasn't gone great. It hasn't been as many wins. And yet still, if you look at some of the success the team's had, I mean, there's some great successes there, but when you're not winning the Tour de France, it's always competing. And you have this legacy of dominance also like looming over you.

It's seen as a big giant failure, you know? So it's tough. I mean, the guys are getting bashed around. I think what I feel sorry for a lot of our guys is that, you know, we had some young guys that were very, very good a couple of years ago and doing, you know, exceptionally well winning races, you know, out of the blocks. And now a lot of guys that are older than them, you know, have sort of gone past them. And I think that's quite tough for them because normally, you know, if you're young and you're great, you just expect to continue on this curve. So I think as a team, we need to really look at what we're doing from a performance side to support the athletes to get, you know, the most out of them because, you know-

What does that look like specifically? I think it's a problem because you've had so much success. You just sort of figure you just keep doing it and it'll work. And there's been a shift, I think, in a lot of other teams around, I guess, it must be preparation because once you get to the race, it's too late. You know, it's how you turn up to the race, how well you're prepared, how well prepared you are. Also, a bit more of a blank canvas.

A lot of teams have had a lot more investment put in. It's like, okay, we weren't competitive with our team. How do we change everything and modernize? I guess they've been able to evolve with the current format of the sport quicker than we've been able to, because obviously we still have a bit of a lag potentially with some of the things we were doing in the past. So yeah, I think we need to go out there and sort of not even try to copy everyone because then you're still going to be behind, but- Where can you innovate? I mean- We have to innovate. InEOS and previously Sky, like that, the advantage was A,

you had a bigger bank account to play with, but also there was the Brailsford, you know, kind of sensibility and philosophy of approaching this, this like 1% better and like finding all of these edges. And that became, you know, a distinguishing factor that allowed the teams to, you know, succeed beyond expectations. But these other teams have caught up,

they have bigger budgets. So you can't just rest on those laurels, like where you have to continue that innovation process and try to find out where the next advantage is hiding. Yeah, and I mean, you can say, I mean, it is rotten luck. I mean, Egan Bernal crashing, Chris Froome crashing, you know, sort of at the peak of their powers.

You know, things unforeseen are also having a lingering effect because, you know, Egan, for example, was signed long-term as, you know, the go-to guy. So all of a sudden you've got to find, you know, we had Carlos Rodriguez last year. He was fifth in the tour last year. He had a difficult tour this year. He was sick a bit, but he was still competitive. I mean, he was still seventh in a very high level. But again,

he's another one. There was guys that sort of snuck in between he and those top three that potentially are older and he was above not long ago. So that's sort of my thing. I believe we've got the personnel. I believe, like you say, we just need to take a bit more of a look. And I mean, I'm not a scientist. I'm the sort of athlete that just loves to get told what to do, get given what they need to get given, you know, as far as nutrition and plans and whatever we, hydration, the equipment, however we do it and trust that we have the best people in those roles and just go out and execute. Others are very, they love to research stuff themselves, like the only American kid, Magnus Sheffield. He's just always reading. He's always trying to learn. He's always trying to

figure out what's going on and better himself and do all this stuff. Personally, I've never been that. I've always just tried to surround myself with the best people and trust what they're doing. So I guess as a team, they need to figure out how to support each athlete individually and how they like to do it and try to find a way to get ahead. It's not even about catching up. You want to get ahead. But I definitely believe the team even about catching up. You want to get ahead. And, but I, but I definitely believe the team has the personnel. So, you know, they keep chipping away at it. They'll, they'll find a way and they'll, they'll fight back.

I mean, it's, it's a great organization with a huge amount of success. And there's a bunch of those people still there, even if you have lost Dave Brailsford at the helm. There's been some chatter about Tom Pidcock's future. Some articles being written about this other team, Q36.5. Never heard of this team. Yeah.

And some idea that he might, I mean, his contract goes through 2027, I think, right? But there's some sense that he might switch teams. Like, is there any insight that you have on that? Yeah, I mean, obviously I got a lot of insight on yeah i mean insight that you're willing to share the i know i'm sure you know a lot that maybe you're not allowed to say no the i mean that idea makes sense i mean tom has i guess the team really want to focus on winning the grand tours and to this point tom is obviously focused on other things you know he obviously focused on other things. He's wanted to learn about the tour and learn about

the Grand Tours. But obviously, as a champion that he is, he's just won his second Olympic gold medal. I mean, that is pretty incredible, especially when you think about the fine margin he won it by. Athletes that can do that like one day every four years, and he's done it twice, they're obviously that next level. Now, I guess it's him and the timing. I mean, if he feels there's pressure from the team to do something he doesn't feel he's ready to do at the moment, then yeah. I mean, it makes perfect sense that if they don't want to support the way he wants to try to win races, then he's going to look for a team that does want to support that. Now, he's got a contract, so he has to negotiate that. The Q36.5 is a very logical choice because

he potentially would have an opportunity to build a team around himself there, which is what, if you remember, Matthew Vanderpoel did, you know, and that team has now grown into quite a successful, incredibly successful team. They've won obviously everything with him, but also Philipson and a bunch of other guys. They win a truckload of bike races and at the highest level. And also on top of that, Tom, you know, Pinarello with them not winning the tour and things, Tom's become quite a shining light for that brand with his success. So the owner of that team or Q36.5, which is actually a clothing company also owns Pinarello. So, you know, there's a natural desire for that

owner, for example, to have Tom as his guy. And if he feels that Tom being in a team on his own where he can showcase that more, I mean, it makes sense to me on a bunch of levels, whether the team let him go, let the guy, one of the few guys that's actually capable of winning races at the moment, walk out the door. I mean, yeah, that's for management.

That's a tricky decision for them to make. It's interesting though, because they have such a unique and flexible relationship with you and what you do and seem to really respect that you have this whole other career outside of pro cycling. And they accommodate that, right?

And bring you in when needed, but seem to respect that you have this other world that you're trying to excel in. I guess it's a bit different because they see Tom as a guy that could win the tour. They probably don't rely on me winning the tour. We're paying him a lot more. Yeah, exactly.

We need him in yellow. Yeah. All that other stuff, you know, that's gotta go. Yeah. That's different, I understand. Basically, I mean, that sort of is the line there. I mean, I'm sure if I was one of the few on the team that could perform and

they're in the situation they're in where not a lot of guys, you know, they're not having a lot of success or the level of success they would like to have, you know, there'd probably be more pressure. And there has been this year, to be honest, I haven't raced as many Ironmans this year, people would have noticed more because they've called me in at different times. And, and I've thought of times it was, you know, there was a time recently I wanted to do the Ironman in Frankfurt. I really wanted to race Christian. I'd had a great summer of prep.

And I was about to enjoy my last week of recovery ready for that. And the team rang and said, oh, we need you to go to Poland next week. And I was like, well, we've got quite a big Ironman next week and it's part of the pro series, which I want to be a part of and blah, blah. Yeah, well, we need you in Poland said well fair enough I don't want to be another one of the riders that doesn't want to go to a race because I don't feel like it I got something else on I'm on the roster so you know I ended up missing that Ironman I ended up doing that race and ended up racing again the following week at Tour of Germany so I basically did four weeks of like the hardest training of my life. And it was actually fantastic fitness wise. It just gave

me a nice big bump. And then obviously then I was released if you like from school to come here to the US and sort of hone in on Kona. So as far as Kona went, it was actually probably a godsend. But there's certainly been times this year. I mean, even the Ironman South Africa early in the year when I qualified for Kona that week, I raced- You did Amstel Gold and then you did La Fleche Wallonne and then Ironman South Africa all in eight days. Yeah, yeah. All in eight days. Then I flew that night. Yeah. Just to disabuse anybody who might be thinking you're taking your foot off the gas. Yeah, yeah.

So, but I mean, I had to do that race because I needed to qualify for Kona. I wanted to do it early. And then you podium, you were third at South Africa. I was leading until 7K to go. I just ran out of gas, which is probably understandable. Considering the week that I'd had, I was just a bit tired.

Not exactly a taper. No, it was amazing because I love that race. I love that race in South Africa because we stay in a hotel right basically on the finish line. So, you know, I finished the race. I was third, sat at the podium, did all that, did doping control, you know, walked across the road. Obviously, a lot of people want to stop you and have a photo, did all that, got to the hotel. My wife was already back there waiting for me with our boy. And I walked in, you know, said thank, gave my wife the flowers. She loves getting those. And, you know, I said, I'm going to have a shower, had a shower, jumped into bed. And I remember Liège-Bastogne, Liège was on and the Formula One. So I, you know, had that on the TV and the iPad and fell asleep. Now, within probably 30 minutes,

like within an hour of finishing the race, hour and a half, I was sound asleep. Now, within probably 30 minutes, like within an hour of finishing the race, hour and a half, I was sound asleep. Now, during that run alone, I think I had around 600 milligrams of caffeine because I was tired. And so, I was just pumping every gel I could into me and Coke and whatever else. And plus, I'd had some on the bike. And so, I probably had a thousand milligrams that day. Yet, as soon as I finished, I just fell asleep. Normally, I don't sleep until 2 or 3 a.m. the next day. You're so lit after the race. But yeah, so this year, I've definitely been more accommodating.

Well, not more accommodating. I've fulfilled my role with the team a lot more and I've also realized when people say, oh, you know, you should be able to focus. I said, no, I'm part of the cycling team. And for that, I'm a cyclist. You know, I'm not a sideshow triathlete. I do my job properly and just set an example for the other guys as well. If I start not wanting to do this, not wanting to do that, I mean, it just sort of sets a bad example for the rest of the team. So, but yeah, I think at the end, it's left me a bit fresher for this preparation for Kona.

Are you the oldest guy in the Peloton? Are there guys that are older than you? I think there is a couple of guys that might be a little bit older, but certainly in the world tour, yes, I'm the oldest. And is there anything, I mean, I'm certain like, not just on Ineos, but like all the guys come to you for wisdom, you've been around so long, like you've seen it all,

all that kind of stuff. But then on top of that, like, is there anything at 41 that you have to pay attention to more than you had to when you were 35 or 31? Like, are you noticing, like as you're aging up that you can't do certain things you used to be able to do, or is it still, you're just like that you can't do certain things you used to be able to do, or is it still, you're just like all gas all the time?

I have a really low tolerance for crashing now. I do not want to crash. And if I come close to a crash- That's less about age and more about like parenthood. Yeah, it probably is. But if I see a crash or I see someone do something stupid that nearly, I really, I mean, I don't lash out at it, but I just say to myself, I'm like,

what are you, you know, whereas in the bars is sort of just part of the racing. And by extension, does that impact your aggressiveness on the descents? Yeah. I'm, I'm very good at doing my job and being at the front, on the front, out of trouble, keeping my guys out of trouble. And when I'm done, like when I don't have any legs left, I'm at the back and out of trouble. I'm not, I'm not sitting in the death zone, you know, and if I'm done, like when I don't have any legs left, I'm at the back and out of trouble. I'm not sitting in the death zone, you know, and if I can come back, if I can recover back there and come back and help again, absolutely. But, yeah, it is definitely I have a bit of a different approach

as far as that goes. But also I'm no good to anyone if I'm on the ground, you know. So and also, yeah, I definitely have less tolerance to that just aggressiveness that goes on unnecessarily. I mean, I'll fight all day for a crosswind section or the first section of the cobbles in Roubaix or whatever, you know, when it's a part of the event. But just, I mean, nowadays, it's just can be nervous all day. You know, I mean, the road can just be blocked all day. So, you know, you got two choices. You're either at the front and out of trouble

or you're at the back and out of trouble and you let the middle of the peloton sort itself out. How did you feel about that introduction of gravel to the Tour de France? Is that controversial in the peloton? It made for good viewing, but I don't know if that's sticking around. Guys don't like, I mean, you know,

you can slip out, slide out and it can ruin months, years. I mean, I'm a big proponent of there's a lot of investment in these guys and for something unnecessarily taking them out, you know, it's sad, you know, especially, I mean, even rain or whatever, you know, like a guy crashes your leader and he's out of the tour. I mean, a guy who paid

millions of dollars and invested even more in and the whole preparation and all of a sudden the team feels like it's gone. I mean, that's, but I guess that's also part of the sport. But to add, to add anything else in that potentially you don't need to, does it add to the spectacle? You know, I don't really, I mean, it's exciting. I remember wanting to watch the stage, knowing that it was going to be something that was going to happen. It's the same with the cobbles.

But we're also seeing that those stages are being more neutralized because all the guys are more prepared for it. So I think if you want to see more explosive, exciting racing, you're probably better off doing that on a traditional course. You know, you just throw in some more climbs or a more technical aspect on a normal road course. And then that at least there's more chance of the legs deciding than maybe luck.

Yeah. But they did a little bit of that this year. I mean, the tour just kicked off like, and just went right into the mountain straight away where usually there's several days of sprint stages before you get to that. Yeah, see, I think that's wonderful. But I think if you were going to lose a favorite

or lose people because of gravel, I think that's, I don't, I mean, yeah, I don't think that, people don't tune in to watch Clouds of Dust, I don't think, you know what I mean? It doesn't appeal to as many people. It was kind of exciting though. Yeah. But maybe part of that excitement was just novelty.

Oh, absolutely. I don't, I don't doubt that part, but yeah, from a, I guess from a writer's perspective. Yeah. I mean, it's definitely an added element of, and especially with how nervous, as I said, the Peloton and everything is nowadays. It's, yeah, it just makes for a really, really tough day.

And then in the end, nothing really changed. Why did we do that? Yeah, yeah, exactly. So that would be more my point. Yeah, I get it. Maybe if you're going to do it, how about we do like a 20% gravel climb, you know, like that is just going to decimate the field

and then it kind of makes sense. So let's talk about Kona coming up in two weeks. We were talking earlier about the former era. You could win the race or really distinguish yourself by being really strong in one discipline. Norman Stadler on the bike, those types of athletes, that's no longer the case. You really have to be great at all three.

That's just the progress that this sport has made. We've got the Norwegians, Christian and Gustav. We've got, of course, Sam Laidlaw, who broke the bike course record the other year. We've got Patrick Longa. Like how is this shaping up in your mind? Like how are you thinking about the competition and your specific approach to the

race? Yeah. Like you say, you've got to be good at everything now. And that's a great thing. I mean, that's how it should be. It's a professional sport and you should have to be very good at the craft. And I think it's just going to be a natural sort of demolition of the field because it's going to be on from the start. So, you know, you're going to have guys eliminated very early, as early as the swim. The trope has always been like, you can't win the race in the swim, but you can lose it. But do you think we're now in a, in an era in which perhaps the swim is much

more important than it ever has been? Absolutely. And the momentum at the front of the race, you know, the dynamic of what ends up at the front after the swim will have a big impact on how the race plays out. So, you know- Which is why you on Instagram yesterday shared some clips of you swimming and asked- Yeah, for feedback. You know, some cheeky feedback. It's funny because one of the most common comments was you got to finish off a bit more. So, this morning I actually had open water practice with Tower 26. And the wonderful thing about swimming with Tower 26 and those beach swims is the same people show up every week.

And there's some very strong open water swimmers there. And when I rocked up six weeks ago, I got dropped straight away. I mean, I'd been racing on the bike. I'd been sort of training on my own for a few weeks. Hayden Wild had been at the Olympics and when he went off and did that, then he had a break. So we hadn't really trained together for really a couple of months. So I'd lost that competitiveness in the swim that I'm exposed to. Anyway, so all of a sudden, the second week, right, okay, get up earlier, have your coffee, have some gels, like make sure you got fuel on board. And I was then able to stay in the group. Then the next week, you start drawing alongside. Then the next week, you're like eyeballing the top guys. Then you're actually starting to race them. I mean, it's been great for me to have a benchmark to

see my improvement. But the feedback about finishing off the stroke was great because this morning, I was actually able to sort of, okay, I'm just gonna work on that one thing. And I gotta say, I really appreciate the people that gave me that feedback. Part of it was tongue in cheek though. Cause obviously you're not gonna like overhaul your stroke mechanics two weeks out.

And I know I'm assuming it was sort of a joke, but then you, like I had some thoughts, but then I was like, eh, like he's fine. What if he reads it? Yeah, yeah. But the best were like, here's my feedback, like you should quit swimming or like, you know, just like, you know, very kind of like Aussie

sort of comments. I always, when I put swimming up, I always get some great stuff, but I also know that it's the one thing that people can really have a dig at me. And I give people such a hard time, you know, often or people perceive. On their running form or... Yeah, anything, not wearing t-shirts, you know, whatever it is. Lionel and his... I mean,

it was best yesterday's double threshold day. I was like, Lionel, that's so 2022. I mean, we haven't spoken about double threshold since 2022. And people are always into me about it being nasty or whatever so yeah make a bit of fun of myself um and but i think it's following through on your stroke that's that's some solid uh one-on-one swimming one-on-one feedback exactly and i i mean i've still got two and a half weeks i can make improvements so people please you know feedback a little more shoulder roll you're a little flat on the surface there. And your right arm comes across like very, very kind of horizontally, right?

So flat like that. Whereas if you can just get that higher elbow, you can get more of a shoulder roll and a deeper pull. And also you're using your legs too much. A lot of people said that. Like no reason, and in a wetsuit, just drag your legs, man. There's no reason for you to be kicking like that. The only purpose of kicking isn't,

it's not propulsion, it's body position, right? To keep your body high. Yeah, I normally don't. I was actually doing a bit of faster stuff. I didn't wanna put my slow swimming up there. I wanted to try. So that was why- You don't wanna be that vulnerable.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, no. But yeah, I like that. The shoulder, that's a great one too. These are little things I've still got time to work on. Yeah, one of the things that Lionel has been doing that I wanted to get your feedback on that I thought was interesting. We talk about zone training, zone two,

like threshold, all that sort of stuff, but he doesn't really talk about zones at all. He's always talking about LT1 and LT2. So LT1 being when your body first begins to accumulate lactate, but not to the degree that you can't be always like purging it. So it's sort of maybe you're into the higher zone two kind of range and then LT2,

which is when you lose your ability to clear that lactate and you're more in that kind of like threshold pace. Do you think in those terms or how, and he's always pricking his ear and taking lactate and all of that. Like how, what's your view on all that? So there's two things with the science.

I mean, if you know what you're doing, like the Norwegians, you do it. I mean, if you don't know- They're all in fully. Exactly, I think we spoke about it last time. Like I spoke to Alexander about that and it's like if you don't know what, you're better off doing nothing. So I hope in Lionel's case he knows what he's doing. But the funny thing about LT1 and LT2,

I did laugh when I started to hear that term reemerge. That was exactly. Because that's old school. That like predates. That was our rowing. That was our rowing efforts. Like I've been doing that since I was 15. It was LT1 effort, LT2, you know.

And so I know been doing that since I was 15. It was LT1F and LT2, you know, and so I know exactly what that zone, but I mean, I guess in today's terms, it's simply, as you say, zone three, you know, the threshold, which is that just after zone two phase, but still comfortable. And then, or you go VO2, you know, which is past threshold, where as you say, it's like a minute or a couple of minutes sort of max. And then you gotta really figure out how to clear that because you're just getting more and more into the hole. So yeah, it's funny. I hadn't heard those terms for 20 years.

It was interesting when I started hearing that, I was like, yeah, that is way back, right? But now it's, I guess if you, but if you, the difference being like he's he's pricking his ear he's getting blood and so he's testing his lactate all the time which is uh that's the that's the kind of improvement on what used to be just something you would go on feel for yeah absolutely i mean to put that you're gonna say in italian i had an italian coach you know quite a legend he's he's now since passed, but he had the Mappe team.

He was the one that started that and managed that. But he used to call it lungo, which was zone two, medio, which is medium, soglia, which is threshold, and sopra soglia, which was above threshold. I kind of like that. I think you should just only use those terms going forward. Just to confuse everyone. And everyone will think you should just only use those terms going forward. I might use those ones from now on,

just to confuse everyone. And everyone will think you've invented some new training. Exactly. But yeah, it's basically, I don't think you change those. But you strike me as, you're kind of, you've been doing this so long. Like, yes, I'm sure you have a power meter,

a heart rate, all that kind of stuff, but like, you know where you're at, right? Like, and you know what you need. And so you don't strike me as somebody who's like digging into the weeds of, you know, all the data points. No, not at all. I mean, I just sort of know how fast I need. I mean, Dave Zabriskie gave me some of the greatest advice,

which was forget about what the power meter says and, you know, just figure out how to go fast. You know, and Bradley McGee was another one that gave me the same advice. Two of the greatest sort of prologue time trialers. Yeah. I think Dave, does Dave still have the time trial record fastest time trial? I think he does. Yeah. Yeah. No, he does. So, and he's out here, you know, he's got his boys now. Yeah. They're all like, now they're gung-ho cyclists. I mean, they're homeschooled and they're cycling flat out. And I mean, the team even asked me to make sure I spoke to Dave

while I was out, find out if any other teams have been speaking to them. I mean, okay, one of these boys is actually- Dave is sort of like, what have I reaped? You know, like I think he got his kids into cycling for fun and now like they're sort of, you know, in his, in, you know, taking his path and he's like, uh-oh. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, as you said, I can't wait for them to go to a team

because I've had to build a team. I did not want to build a team. I mean, as you said, I can't wait for them to go to a team because I've had to build a team. I did not want to build a team. I mean, I've got bikes and wheels and driving them here and there and traveling everywhere with them. You know, you can't wait for them to go to the next level. Get it out of my hands. Yeah, but so, you know, and he even shared yesterday, as I said to you before, just like getting a bit of heat exposure

now going into Kona. I mean, over in Santa Monica where we are, it's a lot cooler than out here. So yesterday, instead of doing my TT efforts, I've been doing up around the strawberry fields and being quite pleasant. But Dave used to use from Malibu Canyon on Mulholland past your place, up Seven Minute Hill, and then you just get to the top top of seven and then roll back down, loop it around, just do that. So I did that a few times yesterday and I know, you know, how quick I need to be going at the perceived effort and, uh, and it was hot as hell, you know? Um, so, um, yeah, I mean, I more look at, I'll sort of pick a point to point, you know, I know that, you know,

for 90 minutes, I can go from Zuma back to the top of the hill with the gas station after Zuma, I know I'm going pretty well, you know, what the power meter says or the heart rate monitor or whatever is kind of irrelevant. And then during the race, trying to tune that out completely. And now we're racing, you know, I mean, that mean, that's the thing, when we're in the race, it's like, you gotta do what you gotta do to get to where you need to be to give yourself a chance to try and win this thing. And especially when it comes to Kona, especially as disappointed as I was to have a disappointing

Kona, I was still 11th last time around, but it was a backward step from fifth. And how many guys like broke the bike course record that? You were under one. It was your record. Oh yeah, I think I was, Sam obviously broke it. I was also under it, I think. You were under it.

Yeah, and it was maybe one other. Were you second off the bike? I wasn't second off the bike, but I was second quickest. I think I was fourth. Bike split. Yeah, I was just behind the Norwegians. So they had that group of three. So I was fifth off the bike. Yeah, I was just behind the Norwegians. So they had that group of three. So I was fifth off the bike.

I just about caught them. But yeah, basically Kona's that race. And it also makes you realize that being fifth or being ninth, being 11th or being 17th, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter now. I've got to just try and finish as high as I possibly can. It's not about having a good performance there. It's about trying to win the thing, you know,

it's all or nothing. Yeah, I mean, you're still, you still got your eyes on the prize, right? Still possible. So predictions for the race, like, where do you see yourself? How are you gonna execute on this? Who are the other people that you're thinking about

and where they're gonna kind of fall in that pecking order? Yeah, I mean, obviously at my age, everyone kind of assumes, you know, you probably won't be a factor. Well, you can be a sleeper. Yeah, like you can kind of sneak up on, yeah. But I think back to when I first went to the Olympics and someone said, so I'll explain it,

but if you reach the top of any elite sport and you make it to that and you're a chance of competing, you're doing the biggest event in that sport. In our case, that's Kona as a professional. I've never been on that start line and someone's gone out on those surfboards and asked for our birth certificate. No one cares how old you are. If you've earned the right to be there and you are there, you've got a chance of trying to win that thing. It's irrelevant. It doesn't matter if you're young or old. Yeah. I don't even think about that part. I'm only thinking about figuring out how to beat these guys. And to do that, I know I have to swim very well. I need to be close to the front of the

race if I'm not at the front of the race. I need to get to the front of the race and I need to be close to the front of the race if I'm not at the front of the race. I need to get to the front of the race and I need to ensure that the race is very hard so that if anyone else is there, the run is- You're forcing a bike pace that is getting- Exactly. Your competitors out of their comfort zone more than you. Precisely. And it was actually really good because I raced,

I did a last minute Ironman in the summer in Vitoria-Gastais, which I was meant to be actually racing the bike that week and then they said, oh, no, you don't have to come. I was like, oh, great, I'll go and do the Ironman then. This is like a Thursday and the race is on the Sunday. And Sam was there, Laidlow, and they actually didn't swim very well. I just sort of got through the bike and thought I'll just do a good run. I was actually planning to go to Lake Placid the weekend after. I was sort of doing it more as a training session and figured I was out of the race,

but I almost, I ended up third and the group that I came off the bike with ended up first and second. So we were the podium and we ran all of the front. There was a front group of about four or five up the road that had ridden very, very hard. And Sam was the only one that stayed just in front of me, but he'd been disqualified because he didn't take a drafting penalty. So I was fourth out of the line, but ended up third. But it reminded me that, wait a minute, like if this bike, if these guys try to ride that hard, you know, they actually really damage their run. So, as a hard bike into a run goes, I really believe that I can be there. And so, obviously, that's my strategy to somehow make the bike hard. So, if people are there, they've got a bit of the

edge off them, you know, and that makes it a bit more of a scrappier grind out run or they're going to have to sit up and burn a lot of time and bank on guys blowing up. Yeah. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. We got Halloween on the horizon, everybody, and that has left me thinking about masks. Not just the spooky ones that we wear trick-or-treating,

but those invisible masks that we wear in daily life. On some level, we all do it. We do it to fit in, to be liked, to win someone over, or because we just don't feel enough on our own. And I think we do this a lot more than we think. And we do it at work. We do it at social settings. We do it around family. And personally, I didn't realize how much I was doing it until I got into therapy and started learning to accept all of my parts. And that has helped me take this mask off. So if you're considering therapy,

and I strongly urge that you do, BetterHelp is worth exploring. It's entirely online. It's designed to fit your schedule. You just fill out a questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapist. And you can switch therapists anytime at no extra charge. So overcome your fears with BetterHelp.

Visit betterhelp.com slash richroll today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp, H-E-L-P.com slash richroll. You have, with age, also more experience at this race than anyone else, but also you have done more work over the years than anybody else. Like you have this insane work capacity

in a sport that is about work capacity and you just love it. If it was up to you, I'm sure you would train all day, every single day of your life. Absolutely. And you have this thing, which is you basically train all day, every single day of your life. Absolutely. And you have this thing, which is you basically never get tired, right?

And I heard, I had like Ken Rideout on here and Jesse Isler and they, I don't know who invented it, but one of them like deploy this tactic when they're in a race and they just look at the guy that who's their neck and neck with. And they're like, you know what? You know the thing about me? Yeah.

Like what? I just never get tired, it's crazy. But you could actually say that and you are that guy, like you don't get tired. Yeah, I don't. I also, I mean, I love, like I said to you the other day, I had a great sort of adventure day, you know, but it ends up being a pretty crazy day of training.

So just to explain people what you did. Yeah, so I had the morning, the squad swim, which was an hour and that's like the hardest squad swim of the week. At Tower 26 at Palisades. Yeah. They go flat out on Saturdays because everyone's off work and they've had a bit more of a sleep in. We don't swim till 7.30. So everyone's a bit more jazzed up. And everyone wants to, is there to smash me basically. I mean, Jerry and his guys are amazing. They just really commit to like helping me prepare the best that they possibly can. I really appreciate that. And then, yeah, I did my bike ride up to the strawberry fields, but instead of going back to Santa Monica and doing a run, I said to my wife, could you meet me out here in Calabasas? And I'll give him a bike

and then I'm going to run up Dirt Mulholland because it was so hot out here. I wanted to get some heat. Did you start at Peddler's Fork or did you start right at the foot? No, no, I started in Santa Monica. But no, for the run part though. Oh, for the run, yeah, I started at, yeah, Peddler's Fork. Right, and so you just took, you took a valley circle

to the beginning of dirt Mulholland. I actually added a bit, I ran around past the commons and then up that way and then along Mulholland and I actually grabbed a last minute Coke at that way and then along Mulholland. And I actually grabbed a last minute Coke at the gas station there on Mulholland just to really load up because I felt how hot it was when I started running. And I think it's from the beginning of the dirt

on dirt Mulholland to the Nike Missile Tower is like six and a half or something like that. Yeah, I mean, it ended up being 19 kilometers. So nearly 12 miles to there. From, yeah, from Peddler's. From Peddler's. Right. Yeah, by the time I'd done the extra bit.

And then there's that one water fountain. And then there's the one water fountain at the top. You took a photo of that. I know exactly what that water fountain is. And I was listening to your podcast. You were talking about LMNT. And I'd taken an LMNT with me because I don't know why I did.

But as you saw, I had a gel out of gel. An LMNT, I didn't even have a bottle but I ended up having a bit of the gel pouring the element tea into the gel packet and then putting a bit of water out of the fountain mixing it all around scoffing it down so I got some sodium in got some sugar in and it was like 100 degrees out that day it was 100 and dirt Mulholland is like hotter than a furnace it's super hot up there it was like 100 degrees out that day it was 100 and dirt mahalan is like hotter than a furnace it's super hot up there it was a light tail breeze as well so it just couldn't yeah and then obviously i ran down in down west ridge into into santa monica it was like 34 so it was you know 21 22 miles in the end but it dropped about 40 degrees i mean i always got

hypothermia when i got to the bottom, but, you know, and it's like at the end of the day, you've done, you know, seven, that was two hour, 20 run, four hours on the bike, you know, seven and a half hour day, more or less. And I just love it. I mean, it was just so such an interesting day for me, yet as far as an athletic side, it was like a really high level, you know, the bike was a really hard bike, you know, a really Ironman specific type session with some good consistent hard power and the run, you know, I pushed the pace all the way up to Nike, knowing that it's all downhill from there.

Isn't that the worst? You think, oh, it's all downhill, but you realize you're actually running. It's not like on a bike. Like you can kind of let your legs go, but it actually hurts even more when they're tired going downhill. But that's also something that we've actually done a bit of this year, more of, which is designed to, and that was the other idea behind the run because a few weeks before I'd actually run from Santa Monica up to Westridge and just back down. And I said to Brett at Nike, I said, look, I've got an idea of a different route, you know, and it sort of puts the downhill at the same point,

but a bit more of an interesting way to get up there. So that was the reason why. And the downhill portion down West Ridge is much steeper than the ascent up to Mahalo. Oh, it's half. It's almost half. Yeah. Yeah.

And then you've got the concrete part, the last part. So it was, that was a great day. Good one, man. But no, I love it. Good one, man. But no, I love it. I honestly love it. What is your sense of what's happening with the Norwegians?

So, as we all know, there was this commitment after the prior Ironman season that they were going all in on the Olympics. They were gonna step it down to shorter distances. Christian did not have, Gustav had some other issues and did not compete. And Gustav had a subpar performance in the Olympics. Now he's back to Kona, difficult transition.

He had like a big win at an Ironman in between, where he showed like, hey man, I'm just as good as I ever was. Yeah. What do you think happened at the Olympics and where do you think like he's at right now in his Kona prep? Yeah, I don't know. I mean, he hasn't really been at that level since Tokyo.

You know, he hasn't dominated really anything since then as far as an an Olympic level. You know, and I train with Hayden all the time in that period. I mean, he and Alex Shee have been a long way ahead of him, you know, really that whole period. So it wasn't a surprise. I mean, that was about where everyone expected him to finish. So whether he's lost some speed, yeah, well, I guess that's it.

I mean, he was with them off the bike. He was in a position to win off the bike. He just didn't have the legs. So you can just assume that time has meant that he's lost speed. I mean, Alex and Hayden are younger and they're running quick, like 29 minutes in that kind of heat. It's pretty remarkable. So you'd think that also that with his age, the Ironman would actually suit him better. So potentially, from where he might be very disappointed of how that panned out, he could actually be primed for an even better performance in Ironman, which is quite scary. And bringing that period of time in which he was so speed focused, maybe not fast enough to, you know, to distinguish himself in the Olympics,

but bringing that back into the Kona context could be like a powerful weapon. Yeah. It's certainly not something that I'm excited for him to have, you know, and that's why I guess the only vulnerability and, and, you know, this is, is, is the bike, you know, if we can somehow make him work harder than he wants to work. I mean, they're very calculated with how they do things. Um, can we deaden his run? I mean, that's the only option. Or is he going to do his own thing and bank on running everyone down? And Gustav. Yeah, you just don't know.

You don't know. Yeah, we don't really know. But there's, again, a bit like we talked about Kipchoge, guys that are that good. Same with Gustav. You cannot rule them out. I mean, I think Sam Laidlaw is a clear favorite. There's Magnus Ditlev, the big Dane, Danish guy, great Dane, we call him. I mean, he's had some phenomenal consistent performance over the past few years

and he'll be a factor. But yeah, I mean, it's Kona. There's just something about that race that you never know who it's going to destroy that you never know who it's gonna destroy and you never know who it's gonna put up on the pedestal and turn into a king. So that's what's exciting about it. If Australian energy has anything to do with your success, you're in good company because right now the Aussies are setting the pace

in terms of what's happening at the outer edges of endurance. So I wanna spend a few minutes talking about kind of what's happening right now. We have Lachlan Morton who just broke by like seven days, I think, the record for cycling the perimeter of Australia, insanity, he did it in 30 days riding some, you know, insane number of kilometers every single day and getting like seven hours of Australia, insanity. He did it in 30 days riding some insane number of kilometers every single day and getting like seven hours of sleep

every night, rewriting that record, which is unbelievable. And right now we have Ned Brockman approximately like halfway through his attempt to break the thousand mile record on the track in Centennial Park. Yeah, yeah. And the videos that are on Instagram right now, like showing the brutal reality of what he's decided to shoulder for himself

are pretty insane. Yeah, I mean, I just would say, like we've seen, we talked a bit briefly before about the endurance world and post COVID era of hype, you know, the level, how it's gone. I mean, really in that world as well. I mean, these guys are, it's mind-boggling. I mean, they are world, world class. I mean, you know, I guess in the past, sometimes it was like, you know, it might be like some

50, 60-year-old guy that runs across America or something, you know, and it's like, wow, that's like an incredible achievement or whatever but these guys are now like touching on like the high performance part of these extreme challenges which i think blows my mind i mean yeah we get to lachlan but net at the moment i mean you think about you know a thousand miles okay wow that's a lot 10 days oh okay yeah that's a lot oh wow that's like four marathons in a day. Right. A hundred miles every day. Every single day, you know, and he's on track. I mean, he just passed halfway. He's on track for it. But I mean, that is just, I mean, a marathon a day is enough to be very hard to, you know, people have done that in every state or whatever, but four of them, I mean, not just one day, four of them, like every, I mean, it literally just

actually blows your mind. And I mean, obviously then the same with Lachlan, you know, I mean, it was almost what, 300 miles a day, 250 miles a day. And I don't know, I mean, people have, people are used to riding around here, you know, and beautiful hot mix and super fast roads, man, you go to Australia and those, those roads are like, you know, I mean mix and super fast roads man you go to australia and those those roads are like you know i mean they're dead as elvis they are like just slow grind like just like chip seal like it's hard to ride on them you know so they i mean we always say you know like the aussies when they go back to europe at the start of the year they're always flying because they've been at home training on these roads that are just dead and hard, you know, and their legs toughen

up. And then as the year goes on, the Aussies performances tend to fall because, you know, the legs soften up a little bit, um, right here out on the fast, fast, uh, fast roads of Europe. So, you know, what Lachlan did, I mean, 14,000, 200 kilometers, which is 8,823 miles in 30 days 450 kilometers a day on average yeah getting seven hours of sleep at night that's the thing the sleep part like it was literally just like a training camp for him yeah i mean i what is it you know this guy right yeah i mean i was in touch with him jury he sent me a wonderful selfie at one point. I mean, it was actually a day, it was a Wednesday.

I won't forget because I just finished swimming and I was about to do the run, similar run to what I'll do this afternoon. And I was like, yeah, it's just a tough one to get up for. You know, it's a hard session, you'd be tired from the swim. And I just messaged him to say, mate, listen, like, I just want you to know that when I'm trying to get out the door for the third session of the day or the fourth session or, you know, whatever, I often think of you and, and it's, it just sort of reminds me to just show up and go and do it. I mean, a bit Ken Wright outside like that. And, and literally he must've just stopped for the day or something because he like sent me a picture of himself like a smile back later on.

It's just, yeah, it's just like it is. It's very motivating. You know, it's people like him, people like Ned that, you know, remind you when you do need to do a session and you don't really keen to start it. You know, it's just like just get rolling. I mean, and they're not trying to say they're doing the fastest.

They are, they're setting world records, of course, but they're not trying to proclaim that they're faster than Pogacar, you know, or if they, if Lachlan, well, in Lachlan's case, he probably could have won the tour, you know, if he'd gone down that, chosen that path. I mean, he was a phenomenal, still is, but a junior talent that the sky seemed to be the limit.

And for whatever reason- Shows a different path. I mean, for people that don't know Lachlan Morton, world team rider for EF, was in the mix and in the Peloton and had a certain career trajectory and kind of pulled a Laird Hamilton. Yeah. It's like, I could do this,

but like actually my passion in cycling is something else altogether that I wanna kind of, I wanna paint a different type of canvas and I wanna do it my way. And stepped out, first distinguished himself by doing this thing called the Alt Tour, where he rode the whole tour to France by himself, unassisted, like, you know,

and his feet got all chewed up so much that he created this sort of like Birkenstock type shoe that he was riding with and sleeping on the side of the road. And he ended up getting like more engagement for that than like the EF team did for their performance in the Tour de France, which kind of validated like this idea that, you know, you can carve your own path as an athlete

that began with guys like Laird. And now there's more kind of like established roots to doing this and has just continued while also distinguishing himself in gravel, like in one unbound right now, like he's just an absolute beast. And then he takes on these insane challenges and like really like the whole world,

like rallies around him. Like he could be like one of the most popular cyclists in the world, like people love him. For sure, he's mainstream. I mean, he's one of the few cyclists that's written about in mainstream media or covered in mainstream media. I mean, it's phenomenal. And like you said, there's been that evolution of him kind of discovering that world and doing these things to all of a sudden now we're seeing a real high performance level of doing these things. Like you said, he won Unbound. He tried with Lead know, he had some mechanical problems, but it was still right up there. I mean,

he's got some races coming up here at the end of the year. I mean, basically, this was like a big training camp for him, you know, for doing those events. I mean, yeah, he's a really class act. And like I say to people, you know, if you're ever struggling for motivation to do anything, just have a read of what he's up to, because he'll be doing something that'll, a bit like Ned, you know, I mean, let's see how he goes his next few days. He's on track now, but I mean,

what he's trying to do, that really blows my mind. I mean, it's wild. It's wild. Yeah. And it appears we're on like day five, I think right now when we're recording this, he's starting to, you could see the cracks, he's struggling, but his mental game is so powerful. My only concern is because he's getting so little sleep,

like does he have somebody on his team to really keep him out of real mortal danger? Cause he's one of those guys who will just go until like, he drops and he's in an ambulance. Yeah. Yeah. That's yeah. I got faith in him.

I do too. Smash some of these. I'm not betting against that guy, you know, and I just love his enthusiasm and just the way that he can like unite all of these people. And he gets all these people who don't necessarily have any connection to the endurance world, like excited about what he's doing.

And he's raising all this money for homelessness. Just like Lachlan raised a ton of money for indigenous literacy. So I think these things are really cool. And so I have an idea for you Cam. Speaking of bringing high performance to, you know, the sort of granola crunchy world of some of these ultra endurance races,

I think we need to see you toe the line at Ultraman because you would just absolutely rewrite the record book on that race. Well, potentially, that's another one the guys are doing, the levels raised a lot. It's starting to, but we still have yet to see, like on the women's side, there's been like some women pros

who have gone in and like done incredibly well and rewrote the record book there. But I don't think we've seen a true star standout male compete. Well, I've definitely looked at it and obviously next year presents an opportunity because there is no Kona. I mean, that's the other thing with Kona now. That's why this year is so, there's so much more riding on it. We only get to do it once every two years. You know, they split the world championships now, but the reality is, I mean, the world championship is still a huge thing to try to succeed, but all of us want

to win in Kona. I mean, that's the event that, you know, that's what an Ironman triathlete wants to do and wants to do well at. But you can just stick around, you know, in Hawaii for another month and then just do Ultraman. I just, I guess the problem would be, this time I haven't qualified. I didn't plan it properly, but certainly in the next couple of years, it's a hundred percent is because I feel like my background from stage racing on a bike and obviously my triathlon background, in theory, it should be something that suits me quite well because of you as you know, the listeners, you know, you do the swim the first day and a bit of the bike, and then you do a big bike ride the second day. And then you do the double marathon. It's a cycling race predominantly.

Pretty much. It favors cycling for sure. You know more than me, you've done it. So yeah, so I think it is something I'd love to do. I'll come and crew you. That'd be awesome. Yeah, have some experience there. Unbelievable.

One of the things that I think is, this is kind of shifting gears a little bit that I've noticed about you, I think is is kind of shifting gears a little bit that I've noticed about you, I think is really smart, is you recognize this privileged situation that you find yourself in, where you are elite in a sport that a lot of kind of, you know,

amateurs like to participate in. And in many ways, cycling is sort of like golf now in terms of like business development and stuff like that. And you get invited to ride in all these grand fondos and participate in fundraising rides, like best buddies and stuff like that. And that puts you in the environment of all these sort of successful businessmen and entrepreneurs. And I think you're really smart in the way that you, leverage sounds like too opportunistic a word, but like you're aware like, oh, this is a privileged situation

that I get to hang out with all these people. And you're not squandering it. You're like, I'm getting to know all these guys. Like you're not somebody who, when the sun finally sets and you decide like you don't wanna be a professional athlete any longer, like you have all these people. Like I would imagine you'll find your way

into a different career path like quite easily because of these relationships that you've developed over many years. Yeah, the CEO of our cycling team, John Allitt, he actually suggested I read a book called The Tipping Point recently, Malcolm Gladwell and The Connector. And yeah, it is a fascinating read and it's funny reading that you start to really see how you exactly, you sort of touch on a lot of different,

sport has allowed me and it's opened so many doors to meeting a bunch of great people. And then how do you piece all those things together, which I often do, you know, the introductions and different things that are going on. I mean, as I say with Best Buddies, I would connect bit dots here to help with that and boost that and yeah, a range of different things. So, 100%, my next, I was asked recently about, you know, what I want to do next and there's two sides to it. One is you've got to support your family, but obviously I want to give back in some way. And I feel like some sort of, I guess, venture capital private equity is a way to look at doing that because

you're kind of helping businesses grow. You can, you can have a philanthropic, you know, angle to that perhaps. And you can sort of give other people an opportunity to succeed. You know, like I've been given so many opportunities to do what I can do. Sponsors stick by you, people stick by you, friends stick by you, people, you know, encourage you to do stuff. it would be great to offer that role back. And I realized that competing at this level is the best way to continue to have those relationships because you develop a rapport and a respect and trust with other people that are very successful. And in that case, it's like successful people in the business world. But in reality, you're both trying to compete. You're both trying to do the same thing. And so the level of people that you're exposed to is similar to the level that you're operating at, which obviously in turn means they're very, very good at what

they do. And it's a huge opportunity for me to meet these people. And I really do cherish those relationships. So yeah, I'm really excited about the next phase. That's for sure. I really do cherish those relationships. So, yeah, I'm really excited about the next phase. That's for sure. I really, however that looks, I still don't know 100%, but there's just the one thing that's certain is all those incredible people. I know we spoke, Willy Walker, you know, common friend of ours, you're in India with, you know, but people like that, being able to do something where I can connect with all these people, I guess is my ultimate goal, you know,

and how that works so that, that, you know, I'm, I'm able to, that, that network that I've developed and I'm sure will continue to develop, um, which I believe is very, could be a very, very powerful network and just do something, you know, really meaningful in the future. It like belies or like puts the lie to the idea that like, oh, you're just a, you're a professional athlete. Like you're just in this like extended adolescence, you know, and like, when are you gonna grow up and be,

but it's like, no, like you're around all of these amazing people who are, you know, excelling in all these interesting and different ways as entrepreneurs and business people and and um and they motivate you and they love hanging out with you you know it motivates me you see their success and i guess a lot of that's like a monetary success you you're just motivated by that you think wow that's good you want to succeed you realize that you know success can bring you a lot of great things. You know, you can give back. You can have a great life yourself.

I mean, that's what's wonderful about all these people, that environment that I meet them in. Often it is through Best Buddies, for example, you know, a charitable, you know, charity organization. And that's super, super inspiring. So, yeah, no, I feel really grateful. It's super inspiring. So yeah, no, I feel really grateful. Do you think that you're a guy who, you know, a day will come where Ineos says,

we're not gonna renew your contract or what, you know, like maybe you're 60 at this point, I don't know. But at some point, probably, you know, a reality. Are you somebody who you think like, okay, that chapter of my life is done and I'm going all in in this other area? Or are you gonna be the guy who, yeah, I'm not competing for money necessarily,

but I'm gonna, yeah, I'm gonna go do Ultraman or maybe I'm gonna ride Unbound or like you'll stay, you'll continue to do these things as long as you are passionate about them. I love this Ironman. I do love it. I love everything about the experience of going to a race. You know, I mean, my son now, he can't wait to go to Kona and do Ironman. I do love it. I love everything about the experience of going to a race.

You know, I mean, my son now, he can't wait to go to Kona and do Iron Kids, you know, that whole, I mean, I think that I could certainly see myself enjoying, just enjoying going and doing an Ironman and having a bit of a trip to somewhere where we haven't been or whatever else, keeping active. But I won't chase competitiveness, I don't think. where we haven't been or whatever else, keeping active. But I won't chase competitiveness, I don't think.

I mean, I would have spent such a massive part of my life by the time that time comes, as you say. I mean, we've sort of this 45 or 2028 like bent line seems to be a pretty good line in the sand. What happens over the next few years? Is there like a phase out? You know, do I slowly phase more I slowly phase more out of the cycling team, but get more involved in business in that time while we're still competing, trying to compete at the highest level? I mean, that's something that's potentially quite exciting. But yeah,

I think once I'm done at that level, I'll be pretty content with the competitiveness that I've had over the years. I don't think I'll be chasing too many competitions. Just doing it for the love. Yeah, I'm sure. I mean, my son plays tennis, he plays golf. I'll be really happy actually playing those things as well with him at that point as opposed to riding my bike everywhere.

But yeah, I mean, I love exercising and I love being active. So one thing's for sure, I'll be doing something, but I think I'll be pretty happy. I think I'll always be a competitor, but I might just probably choose to be competitive in another discipline. I would imagine. Just because, you know, you hang out.

Just not sport. The competitive nature doesn't like, you know, suddenly dissolve. No, no, it never will. I mean, I read a great, you know, even quote by Musk recently, if you want to get old quickly, stop learning. You know what I mean? It's so true. I mean, you come here to America and you see, you know,

people that are older just still pushing and pushing and pushing and they look young and vibrant and they're out of energy. You're like, where do they get it? Cause they're hungry. They're still wanting to succeed. I mean, the moment is, yeah, you can, you can stop and you'll stop quickly, especially as you get older, as you get older, the quick, the stop will happen even faster. Um, so, uh, yeah, I won't be, I won't be losing that edge. You're the people's champion. We're all pulling for you, buddy. I appreciate that. I feel that. Well, you got to run, you got to get to, so I'm going to let you go. But any kind of like parting final words for those that are going to be tuning in to see you race in Kona? Just enjoy, admire the level of the sport. Yeah. And yeah, just admire

the sport and maybe it'll tug your heartstring. You might want to do one yourself. It's a great sport. I love it. I mean, it's really given me everything I have today and I love doing it with my family. And yeah, it's a very unique sport. We're all out there together and this one just happens to be at the absolute highest level, but you know, it's all relative for everyone on that day. We're all going through the exact same thing, you know, from the first to last finisher. So yeah, I just encourage people if they are thinking about it, watch the sport and might inspire them to do one themselves. Awesome, man. Uh, thanks for coming and share, sharing with us today, especially like last minute spontaneously like this. Pleasure. Um, I don't know how much more time you're going to be spending in the area in the future, but it would be fun to have you

back on just to talk about like general endurance stuff. Like it was fun to talk about Lachlan and Ned. So, you know, massive kudos to Lachlan and nothing but crazy respect for Ned, who's in the middle of it right now. Everybody's gotta tune into this, go on Instagram, find his account, Ned with two Ds, give him a shout. Cause he's in the hurt locker right now. When you're watching me race and you think, wow, what they're doing is crazy.

Think about the fact that Lachlan did three times as far on the bike every day for 30 days. And Ned ran four of those marathons. We ain't doing much at all. His whole body's all taped up right now, including like he's having shoulder problems just from running. Like this is how, how, you know,

incredibly difficult this thing is that he's trying to do. That one is really mind boggling. At least Lachlan can kind of coast every now and then and roll a bit. Not that that dwindles that at all, but for Ned, if he doesn't put one foot in front of the other, he doesn't go anywhere. Unreal. Unreal. All right, buddy.

Well, best of luck. I'll be cheering for you. And again, thanks for coming and doing this, dude. Appreciate it. Peace. Peace. And again, thanks for coming and doing this, dude. Appreciate it.

Peace. This episode was brought to you today by NordicTrack and iFit. Head on over to nordictrack.com slash richroll to experience personalized fitness. That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com, where you can find the entire podcast archive, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change in the Plant Power Way, as well as the Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and leave a review and or comment. This show just wouldn't be possible without the help of our amazing sponsors

who keep this podcast running wild and free. To check out all their amazing offers, head to richroll.com slash sponsors. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is of course awesome and very helpful. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, the meal planner, and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by

Jason Camiolo. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis with assistance by our creative director, Dan Drake. Portraits by Davey Greenberg. Graphic and social media assets courtesy of Daniel Solis. And thank you, Georgia Whaley, for copywriting and website management.

And of course, our theme music was created by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love. Love the support. See you back here soon. Peace. Plants.

Namaste. Thank you.