The Rich Roll Podcast - Embracing a Sustainable Lifestyle Philosophy That Transcends Diet

Episode Date: June 29, 2014

Today we’re back with some heavy nutrition talk! There is so much confusion out there about diet, food & optimal health. It's enough to make even the most discerning, conscientious consumer’s head split wide open in frustration. Exasperated, we end up simply paralyzed — continuing to perpetuate unhealthy eating habits that enslave us to an inevitable future of disease, obesity and dependence upon the pharmaceutical industry. My humble opinion? Last week's Time Magazine cover story on the comeback of butter doesn't exactly help matters. Seriously? To help set matters to rights and slice through the wide swath of confusion, obfuscation and downright misinformation, I am pleased to host the lovely and sagacious Sharon Palmer RD. For the uninitiated, “RD” stands for Registered Dietitian. But a more apropos professional acronym just might be “PPRD” – for PlantPowered Registered Dietitian. Sharon is the editor of the award-winning health newsletter Environmental Nutrition, and a nationally recognized nutrition expert who has personally impacted thousands of people’s lives through her writing and clinical work. She is the author of The Plant-Powered Diet: The Lifelong Eating Plan For Achieving Optimal Health, Starting Today* and her new book Plant-Powered For Life: Eat Your Way to Lasting Health with 52 Simple Steps and 125 Delicious Recipes* comes out on July 8 (available now for pre-order). These are books that empower everyone — whether vegan, vegetarian, or omnivorous — to put that Plantpower manifesto into practice by adopting a largely or entirely whole-foods, plant-based diet and thereby reaping such benefits as weight loss, optimal health, and longer life. Indeed, the Plantpower / Plant-Power meme isn't just alive and well, it's picking up steam. What's great about Sharon is her easy-to-grasp, personal approach to food and diet, an approach that marshals the most up-to-date findings in nutrition to explain both why you should eat more plant-based fare and exactly how to do so. But more interesting that that (to me at least) is our dialog about transcending diet altogether. The idea that true wellness stems from adopting a more long-term, sustainable, holistic mind-body-spirit lifestyle approach to not only what you put in your mouth, but how you spend your time and actually live on a day-to-day basis. This is the approach that changed my life. The approach I do my best to embody daily. And the approach I continue to rely and fall back upon to keep my life balanced and in check (with varying degrees of success I might add). So it was great to hear Sharon echo this perspective. I sincerely hope you enjoy the conversation. If you do, tell a friend! Peace + Plants, Rich

The Rich Roll Podcast, and I'm really glad that you dropped by today. What do we do here? On a weekly basis and always for free, I do my best to bring you the best, most forward-thinking, paradigm-busting minds in wellness, fitness, athleticism, creativity, diet, nutrition, art, entrepreneurship, personal growth, spirituality, and other miscellaneous topics. The people that are rocking the tools, the knowledge, the experience, and the inspiration that you need to discover, unlock, unleash your best, most authentic self. That's the theme of the show. I try my best to stay true to that. And just to let you know how committed I am today, we are right in the middle, as I'm recording this,

we're right in the middle of the World Cup game versus Germany. And I would very much like to be watching that right now, but I'm busy, man. I got so many things I gotta do that I just had to do this now. And so I am foregoing the World Cup in order to bring you this show right now.

Of course, by the time you're listening to this, it's long past, but hey, that's neither here nor there for me. Let's see. A quick note of thanks for all the great feedback on my anti-hacking post that went up on Huffington Post the other day. This is an article I actually wrote quite a while ago, but it refuses to die. It seems to have really struck a nerve and just won't go away. I first put it up on my site, I don't know how many months ago, six months ago, maybe, maybe even longer than that. Then I put it up on Medium and it had a whole new life. And just the other day, a senior blog editor at Huffington Post got in touch with me and they

wanted to know if they could put it up there. And of course, I said yes. And the post went nutty again. And I just want to thank everybody who took a few moments to read it. And for those of you who shared it and spread it around the internet, that was super cool. And I appreciate all the great feedback and messages you guys sent me. If you happen to miss it, I'll put a link up in the show notes to that article. It's about stopping all this nonsense about hacking your life and instead invest in the journey. So give that a look. What else is going on? Well, we are in, I haven't talked about this really on the show, but we're in the final stages of putting together our new cookbook.

It's going to be awesome. This one, many of you out there have gotten our Jai Seed digital e-cookbook that we offer on our site, but this one is going to be a legit, full-on hardcover book. It's awesome. We put tons of work on it. We've been working on it for the better part of the last year. We've done multiple photo shoots and food shoots and lifestyle shoots, and it's really coming together. It's this incredibly beautiful kind of artistic lifestyle portrait of our life in wellness and in food, and it's really something special. I'm super proud of it. And I'm in the midst of building out the remaining text sections and the nutritional information, et cetera. And I don't want to say too much about it right now because it's still a ways off from being released, but it's really looking awesome. And I just, I can't contain myself.

I'm super pumped. It's going to be a very family oriented cookbook, 120 plus recipes, lifestyle tips, again, hardcover, kind of like coffee table style book that you could just put out. And the photography is really beautiful. And you know, it's a real book. So the other thing is, it's really more than a cookbook. It's really kind of a lifestyle primer. And I'm really proud of it. We're looking at a winter release. We're aiming for January with hopes of having a limited run available in time for those who want to pick it up as a Christmas gift. But I'm not sure on that yet. So don't quote me. My priority is to have the book be the best that it can be to have it all right. And I'd rather do that than rush to meet a deadline so it can get out by holiday time, as appealing as that is. And knowing that we'd probably sell a ton of books if we could get it ready for Christmas. I'm just not sure if we're going to be able to make that deadline.

But anyway, onward, I'll be sharing about the book and details related to that more as we near completion. The other thing that's kind of going on today is, I'm not sure if you guys follow Casey Neistat. If you're a longtime listener of the show, you know I had him on the podcast last winter. And hopefully after that, if you were not familiar with him, you have been following him. But he's been lighting it up on Snapchat recently. He's got this constantly disappearing video blog. And it's been kind of captivating the way he tells stories using this new medium. And I'd never used Snapchat before. It's brand new to me, but his example has really inspired me to follow suit and to kind of bring you guys a little bit behind the scenes

on what my life is like on a day-to-day basis. So today, I'm kicking it off tonight by Snapchatting for the very first time, the premiere of Cowspiracy here in Los Angeles. Again, if you've been listening to the show, I had Keegan and Kip on a couple episodes back talking about their new documentary. Well, the premiere is here tonight in Los Angeles, and I have the distinct honor of introducing the film and kind of emceeing the evening and moderating the post-screening filmmaker Q&A along with Ethan Brown of Beyond Meat. And it should be cool. So I'm going to try to take you behind the scenes of that using Snapchat. I have no idea really how to use it. I don't know what I'm doing with it yet. It's all brand new to me, but I'm a sucker for a new medium to share the message and I'm going to give it a whirl.

Obviously, by the time you hear this, it will be well past the expiration date. But hey, go ahead and add me on Snapchat if that's your thing. My handle there or my name there is IamRichRoll, I-A-M-R-I-C-H-R-O-L-L. Some weird reason somebody has already taken Rich Roll, if you can believe that. So anyway, I'm going to see if I can find a way to grab my name because I don't know who's using Rich Roll, but I feel like I should be able to do that. But anyway, for right now, it's IamRichRoll, so you can find me there. Okay. So today we're back at it with some heavy nutrition talk. There's so much confusion out there about diet, nutrition,

high fat, low fat, paleo, vegan, Mediterranean, Atkins, ketosis, all that kind of stuff. It makes even the most conscientious, health-conscious consumers' head spin. And it doesn't help when butter makes the cover of Time Magazine. Don't get me started on that. I mean, really, what is going on? So you go online, you research this stuff, and it's confusing. Like, what is the

right way to do this? How can I eat the best to feel my best, to manage my weight, to prevent disease, all these sorts of things. And it seems to be that there is a lot of conflicting information out there. I feel strongly about the way that I eat. It has healed my body. It has fueled me to athletic heights I could have never dreamed of. And so, of course, I love to kind of, you know, I don't know if I proselytize it, but, you know, I advocate this way of living simply because my experience has been so profound. But anyway, as I always say, this show is not just for vegans. All comers are welcome. People with all points of view on diet, nutrition, lifestyle, health, etc. But today, we're going to get into it with the lovely and sagacious Sharon Palmer, RD.

RD stands for registered dietitian. But it should be PPRD, plant-powered registered dietitian. Sharon is the editor of the award-winning health newsletter Environmental Nutrition. She's a nationally recognized nutrition expert who has personally impacted thousands of people's lives through her writing and clinical work. And she is the author of The Plant-Power Power Diet, The Lifelong Eating Plan for Achieving Optimal Health Beginning Today. Yes, people, the plant power meme is alive and well and gracing the cover of books everywhere, books I did not write. And I'm so proud and excited to see that term that I kind of feel like I helped put out into the zeitgeist taking hold. And I love it

when other people are kind of jumping on with it as well. It's pretty awesome. So in this book, Sharon Marshall's the most up-to-date findings in nutrition and explains both why you should eat more plant-based fare and exactly how to do so. It's a book that empowers everyone, whether you're vegan, you're vegetarian, you're an omnivore, so that you can put that plant power manifesto into practice by adopting a largely or entirely whole foods plant-based diet and thereby reaping such benefits as weight loss, optimal health, and longer life. She's really cool. I had a great time talking to her. I'm so happy to have her on today to tell us all about her journey, her book, her perspective on diet, nutrition, health, et cetera. So, without further ado, ladies and gentlemen, Sharon Palmer, RD.

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I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help,

go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. I'm definitely interested in hearing, you know, your kind of, your story and your evolution to, you know, the perspective that you have now on food and health, et cetera. So how did this all begin for you? Well, I'm a registered dietitian, so my whole world is food and nutrition. But personally, I've been in some sort of a plant based diet. My parents were semi vegetarians. So this goes way back. Yes. Did you grow up in California? I grew up in Washington state. Yeah. And, and it was kind of like that hippie,

that whole really nuts and granola type generation where, you know, my mom made homemade bread that was so rustic and full of sprouts and everything that, you know, I was like the only kid that had, everybody else had Wonder Bread and I had this homemade, you know, bread. Oh no, so you were the kid who's going to school, eating the thing like that. Well, why didn't you rebel and go in the opposite direction? That would have been the more predictable path. Yeah, I don't know. It was just so familiar for me.

I mean, I do say that when I was a kid, I was embarrassed of my sandwiches, but now it's almost, it's cool. If your mom made a homemade bread, you would be like the talk of the town at school probably. But in those days, the white bread was the one that everybody wanted. Of course. Of course. So, so she's making her own bread. So, I mean, they were like, I mean, I take it.

They were like kind of hippies. You were coming from this, but you didn't grow up on like a commune or something. No, no, no. And I don't know if I would really describe them as hippies, but more really in that, in the seventies, you know, the sixties and seventies, there was a movement and, you know, my mom would make net loaves and, and use all these little crazy things. And that was just not a mainstream. When carob was a big deal. Yeah, exactly. That was our era. Right. Exactly carrot was a big deal. Yeah, exactly. That was our era. Right, exactly.

I remember that. I mean, there was always the one kid. I mean, that was not me when I was a kid, but there was always that one kid in the class who kind of came from that perspective. And you were like, what's going on with that guy? You know, it was an oddity. Whereas now it's amazing to see the difference. I mean, I think back then a lot of those foods just didn't taste very good either. It was all very dry and bland and now they've

really figured out a lot of this stuff. So it's tasty, but to see the evolution from what it was like when we were kids to what it is now is remarkable. You're right. And I think in those days it was almost like food was a penance. It wasn't really anything people enjoyed so much. It was almost like, you know, this was the way we ate and it was good for the, you know, the planet, good for us. But now it's, people are just having, it's all about delicious flavors. It doesn't have to be something you're lacking enjoyment, you know, with. Right.

In the seventies, it was like, it was supposed to taste bad. That's why it was good for you. If it tasted good for you, then, I mean, if it tasted good, then it probably wasn't, you know, with... Right. In the 70s, it was like, it was supposed to taste bad. That's why it was good for you. If it tasted good for you, then, I mean, if it tasted good, then it probably wasn't, you know, it wasn't right. We have to tone it down. We have to make it taste terrible. Exactly. Exactly. I mean, when I studied nutrition, that we were at the point, you know, we would tell people to eat a bland diet. We literally would tell people, you know, to not use very many spices. In those days, nuts were considered to be high in fat and bad for you. Avocados were bad for you. Now we know that herbs and spices are probably good for you. They're high in anti-inflammatory

compounds, you know. So, you know, we have a different attitude about healthy eating. So, where does the idea that you want to pursue this as a profession start to come into play? Well, I think because of my childhood, I was always fascinated with nutrition. I loved to cook. I used to make my own granola and cook dinner for the family. My mom worked, my dad worked, and I loved it. So I knew that was kind of the trajectory for me. I loved the whole food nutrition world. So I studied nutrition. I loved the whole food nutrition world. So I studied nutrition. I went to Loma Linda University, which again helped cement this whole plant-based thing because they are in the blue zones.

I don't know if you're familiar with the blue zones. Right, right. So for the listener out there, there's a very popular book called The Blue Zones. Who was the author of that? Dan Buettner. Dan Buettner. And basically, correct me if I'm wrong, Sharon, but it was a author of that dan butner and basically correct me if i'm wrong sharon but it was a study of of the civilizations all over the planet that had sort of the greatest longevity

and kind of quality of life and it was it it ranged from okinawa right was one of them and where were the other ones like remote parts of greece yeah yes greece was one of them i i can't remember all of them but right loma linda was one in the united linda was one of them which is curious because it's sort of like a suburban area not too far from los angeles right and like where why is this a blue zone uh compared to these other cultures which really could be sort of generalized as on some level being isolated from modernization, right? They're preserving their way of life from ages ago, generations and generations back. But explain what is unique about Loma Linda. Well, Loma Linda, because of their religious background, their Seventh-day Adventist school, and also community, the entire city of Loma Linda is an Adventist community, Seventh-day Adventist.

And one of their philosophies is that they have a high rate of vegetarianism. They have diet philosophies. And so the campus is meat-free. The university is meat-free. The hospital is meat-free, the university is meat-free, the hospital is meat-free. So you learn, I mean, that's the whole basis for the nutrition education, unlike other nutrition programs that you study. You're starting with a meat-free kind of philosophy. Right. You've been brainwashed though. Don't you realize that, Sharon? I mean, that was one of my main questions to you was like,

what was your experience in getting your degree in nutrition? Because I know what the curriculum is like at the university level at most colleges. But of course, it's going to be different at Loma Linda. Right. I mean, we still had to learn about, we had to be able to practice in the world. We had to learn about how to make recommendations for people who weren't vegetarian. But I mean, the whole bias, the whole emphasis of that education is based on the health benefits of vegetarianism. So you went into it as a vegetarian.

Yeah. Did you specifically decide you wanted to go to Loma Linda for this reason or? Well, they have a quite famous nutrition program that I actually came down from Seattle to go to Loma Linda for this reason or? Well, they have a quite famous nutrition program that actually came down from Seattle to go to. So I was attracted to their nutrition program and that was another thing I liked about it, you know, and then of course fell in love with California. So stayed here. So you decided to stay, right? I mean, how many years does it take to get your, your degree? And to become a registered dietitian, you have to have a minimum of a Bachelor of Science degree and then a year internship. So I did that. I took my internship through Loma Linda and started working as a dietitian.

So I've been a dietitian for 25 years or so. And do you still practice that? Do you work with clients or patients? I used to. For the last 12 years, I've been working in journalism, writing and editing. Um, I'm an editor for environmental nutrition. And so I've stayed in that world. I speak, I do more, I don't do work so much one-on-one anymore. Um, right. It's not about, yeah. So, cause that's what I noticed from looking at your

website and all the materials is that, um, it was much more about kind of the blogging that you're doing and the writing that you're doing on various sites than it is about working one-on-one with people. So let's talk about, I want to talk about the book, The Plant-Powered Diet. So tell me a little bit about this book. We have a couple. You have The Plant-Powered Diet and you have Plant-Powered for Life. Right. The first book is The plant-powered diet. And I call that kind of the Bible of plant-based eating.

I was inspired to write that book. I'd been working on that idea for a couple of years and then I finally just plunged in. And my publisher is the experiment who published Forks Over Knives, which I'm sure you're familiar with. Of course. So my publisher was right in the zone with that book. is the experiment who published forks over knives, which I'm sure you're familiar with. So I, you know, my publisher was right in the zone with that book. And, um,

published a lot of books kind of in a similar vein. Right. Right. They, they are really passionate about food and, you know, helpful for a lot of vegetarian, vegan books.

So, um, I, I was really interested in writing because in my work in journalism, I attend a lot of nutrition conferences and I have to read research every day. And from a health perspective, all of a sudden, all these studies were coming out. I mean, we don't have a lot of research dating years back, decades back about vegetarianism. It's more in the last couple decades. And more and more is coming out that a plant-based diet is better for health. I mean, it's just so much in the research in

the last 10 years. It's just compelling. So I really felt that it was time. Of course, there have been a lot of books written about that, but my book is very in-depth in terms of all the individual categories, for instance, whole grains and plant proteins and fruits and vegetables, all the benefits of the individual plant components, and then how to do it well, how to make sure you're getting enough of all the different nutrients you need. Right. I mean, it is a little bit of a crowded space in terms of, because there are so many books out there and everybody offers their own perspective. So, what is it that you're bringing to the discussion that maybe distinguishes your book from the other books?

Well, as a registered dietitian, I feel like my book has a lot of nutrition information. So it's not so much that it's supplying the philosophy because there are a lot of beautiful books out there really giving you the motivation to do this. I do have some of those elements, but I really feel like my book is more that practical book of the nitty gritty of how to do this and to really- How am I going to get my omega-3s and how much protein do I actually need and all that kind of stuff. And also I have a real philosophy on whole plant foods. So I really feel like we need to return to not all the processed things

that are out there, but you know, like legumes, lentils and peas and edamame and, you know, farro and quinoa, those kinds of foods. You know, because it's not just about eliminating the animal foods. It's also about what you're choosing. Right. It's as much about what you're choosing to eat as opposed to, I think a lot of the focus and a lot of people get really caught up in what you're not eating and what you might be missing because you're not eating X, Y, or Z as opposed to focusing on what you should be focusing on, which is what are you eating and what is in all of these amazing new foods that maybe you don't have that much experience with. Exactly. I mean, I feel like on some level, we share a certain perspective in the sense that, you know, the way I kind of approach all of this is I'm trying to cast a pretty wide net. You know what I mean? I'm more interested, I'm less interested in preaching to the converted than I am in

trying to find a way to create a welcome mat for somebody who is new to these ideas and maybe is confused, knows they need to change and isn't really sure where to turn. Like, should I do the paleo diet? What's going on with plant-based foods? I don't really know. I'm a little intimidated. I don't know how I would possibly ever do that to say, hey, you know what, why don't you jump in over here? Like the water's warm. It's not so bad. I'll help you hold my hand. And so I feel like on some level you do the same.

Like you're trying to create a warm feeling for somebody who's new on an introductory level, I suppose, and saying here's the answers to all these questions that you probably have and it's going to be okay. Don't worry. Right. That's true. And I also am trying to really speak to everybody, because even if people don't want to be vegetarian or vegan, if they would just make a change in their diet and become more plant-based,

I think that everybody could find a benefit. So I also have that part in my philosophy in my book. So somebody who does not want to become a vegetarian, a benefit. So I also have that part in my philosophy in my book. So, you know, that somebody who does not want to become a vegetarian, what if they cut their meat intake by half, or what if they did meatless Monday and then from there started, you know, doing it a couple days a week and realizing it's not that hard. I think that, that, that, uh, you know, all studies of human behavior pretty much, uh, agree that, you know, we like to think that we can make these drastic changes overnight. And there certainly are, you know, those people who

say, you know, I, you know, quit smoking and I never smoked again, or, you know, I stopped eating meat and I never, or I put down the bottle and I never had a drink again my whole life. But most people, that's not how it works. It's a slow process of acclimating to a new lifestyle habit. And I think that that's particularly true when it comes to diet. And, you know, it's not like most people who adopt a plant-based diet do it with the snap of the fingers. It's a gradual evolution of, you know, testing and playing around with new things and making mistakes and slipping up and learning as you go and getting more in touch with your body and what feels good to you and what doesn't.

And I think it's important to give people permission to have that exploration. And so I like the idea of saying, let's just try to get more plants into your diet. This is not a dogmatic approach of you labeling yourself as adopting this know, adopting this, this diet or that diet or identifying with this group or that other group, let's just get more plants in your diet. Like, let's think about, let's rethink what your entree is. Like, why does the entree have to be the, the big piece of roast beef? You know, traditionally going back in history, the meat was the delicacy. It was the side dish. Maybe we should look at it and reframe this idea in that perspective, make the salad or the greens or the lentils or the beans or whatever, the predominant aspect of the meal and push that meat over a little bit to the side.

See how you feel. Do that for a while. Make one change. Switch the milk for almond milk for a while until you adjust to that and then evaluate, journal what you think and pay attention. And it's a journey, I guess is what I'm trying to say. It's not an overnight thing. And I think what happens is people say, I'm going to try to be vegan or I'm going to try to be plant-based and they do it for a couple of weeks. They make a mistake, you know, or a mistake. I mean, just by using that, that word I think is inappropriate, but they slip up or they, you know, in a weak moment, they have ice cream or something like that. And then they say, well, that was, that's just too difficult. I can't do that. I can't adopt that lifestyle, forget it.

And they go back to doing what they're there. They were doing before, um, as opposed to saying, well, that was interesting that I made that choice. Like what, you know, let's learn from that and how can we do better next time? Right. I agree. It's not like there's any police walking around monitoring, you know, well, we are our own worst police. I think, you know, nobody's harder on myself than I am. And I think that's something that most people share in common. Like we're, you know, we're our own worst, hardest critics. Right, right. And I agree 100%. I mean, it's all a journey. And for many people, it starts with, you know, making small changes.

And all of those changes are good. You know, the more plant-based you become, the more health benefits that you have. I mean, I don't know if you saw the Adventist Health Study 2. That was actually from my university, Loma Linda University. It's a beautiful study with 96,000 people where they divided, they looked at five different diet patterns, vegan, vegetarian, which is lacto-ovo-vegetarian, pescatarian, semi-vegetarian, and vegetarian. Pescatarian, semi-vegetarian, and vegetarian. And in everything they looked at for disease risk, heart disease, diabetes, total cancer,

inflammation, cholesterol levels, everything was just on a linear level progressively better the more plant-based the diet became. So basically, if you went from vegetarian to semi-vegetarian, you saw a benefit. If you went from there to pescatarian, you found even more benefits. With every step, you had benefits. So I think that's a really interesting study

to show that it's an incremental health benefit, you know, with the more plant-based that you become. Right, it's not an all or nothing. It's not a switch that's either on or off, right? It's a sliding scale of what foods you are eating and what foods that you're avoiding. And that's always changing. And even as somebody who's, you know, I certainly haven't been doing this as long as you, but

it's been about, I don't know, eight years since I've, I'm still, you know, learning and tinkering and how I eat now is very different than how I ate three years ago. Not very different, but I'm constantly, you know constantly learning and revising and refining and figuring out what agrees with me and what doesn't. And it's not about arriving at a destination and saying, I've got it all figured out. It's about just adopting a lifestyle and undertaking that journey and understanding that you're going to make mistakes and you're going to learn and grow as a result, right? Exactly. Exactly. Everybody changes.

And as we go through different periods of our life, we're going to change too. You know, when you're 16, what you, you know, what you need nutritionally is totally different than when you're 40 and when you're 60. So we, I mean, we're always evolving and learning and, and, and, you know, changing our diets as we, as we learn. Right. There's all different kinds of people that listen to this podcast. It's not just vegans and vegetarians.

There's a lot of paleo people and people that are still eating the standard American diet and people that are plant curious. You know, I don't know. All walks of life, in other words. So I always like to try to, you know, introduce these principles of healthier eating in a way that, you know, kind of addresses some of the predominant concerns that people have or things that scare people off about eating a plant-based diet. So, you know, the main one is always, you know, where do you get your protein? So I have my answer to that question, but I'm interested in how you feel that and what your reaction is to people that, because I'm sure you get that question every day. Yeah, it's probably my number one question that I get. But, you know, plant proteins are very good sources of protein. That's what I usually, you know, talk about is things like legumes, which would be lentils and dried peas and beans.

And half a cup of cooked legumes have about the same amount of protein, a little bit more than an ounce of meat. So I recommend getting legumes, you know, at least a serving a day. I also recommend soy foods, whole soy foods, things like tofu. That's interesting because there's debate about that. And this gets into the issue of all the kind of subcultures within the plant-based movement. And I wouldn't call them warring factions, but there are certainly disagreements over the final kind of 1% of what it means to eat a whole food plant-based diet and to maximize your health.

And there are certain people that will say you should avoid soy. of what it means to eat a whole food plant-based diet and to maximize your health. And there are certain people that will say you should avoid soy. And there are other people that are saying, what are you talking about? Soy is perfectly fine. So you're coming down on the soy is no problem. I am. I've written quite a bit about it

and read a lot of the research. Well, number one, I love to look at traditions and cultures around the world. And we see in Japan, for instance, they have the highest longevity of any industrialized nation. the research um well number one i i love to look at traditions and cultures around the world and we see in japan for instance they have the highest longevity of any industrialized nation and they eat soy every day i mean every day and a lot a lot of soy and tofu miso natto it's not gmo soy though i would imagine over there no but that's enough that's another interesting thing is we're not eating that much when When you eat tofu, very little of it is GMO.

And a lot of people don't understand. I was under the impression that most of it is GMO. Most of the soy grown in America is GMO, but that is the soy used for cattle feed and for oil. Soy that is used to make soy milk and tofu is a different kind of plant. I mean, they're totally bred for different characteristics. Interesting. Yeah. A lot of people don't realize this, that most, I've been told that it's about 85% of all soy foods is non-GMO. And really you could almost say all of it. It's so, because tofu is such a beautiful food. It's like white. I mean, you don't want

any unusual characteristics. You don't want it off color. So those soy beans are a totally different high quality plant that would produce those. And with edamame, I've been told that none of it is GMO because that's a totally different plant than what is grown for cattle feed, which is grown with a different characteristic, you know, um, so that you're right. 85% of all the soy grown for cattle feed and oil is GMO. Well, the soy industry then needs to get their act together and do a better job of labeling because they could, they could, they could, a lot of people are walking around concerned about this and they don't always, if it, if it truly is non-GMO, then they

should do a better job of putting that on the label so that people understand that that's the case. Because I sort of walk around, I'm fairly educated about this stuff. I don't have the, you know, extent of knowledge on the details that you do, but I was under the impression that it's probably, you know, unless it specifies otherwise, it's going to be a GMO product. Yeah. I'm seeing more and more tofu that says GMO free or organic. So that's helping get it out there more, but a lot of people do not understand this. And the reason why is the soy industry is mostly directed to cattle feed. So, I mean, soy foods is such a tiny percentage. So it doesn't, it's not worth a huge splash, right? You know, I mean, soy foods is such a tiny percentage. Right, right. So it doesn't, it's not worth a huge splash, right?

You know, I mean, so much of the soy grown is going to cattle feed, animal feed, which is really sad, you know. Right. But we could be eating, you know, just think how efficient our food system would be if we were eating all of that protein instead of, you know, or another kind of plant protein. Right. But anyway, so I'm, you know, there's that aspect that a lot of people don't understand. And even if you want to make sure, I always recommend, you know, just look for it on the label. If you buy organic, it has to be GMO free.

Right. But what about the estrogen concerns or the estrogen debate with soy? That's a big, that's my second thing I get a lot. And, you know, the first thing is the breast cancer scare, you know, that, you know, we know that estrogen, you know, the hormone estrogen raises a woman's risk of breast cancer. So, you know, it was thought because soy has these natural plant estrogens called phytoestrogens. It's in the isoflavones of soy. It was thought, scientists thought, oh, what if this is going to raise the risk too? So they started doing

some studies. The animal studies were kind of scary. But then since then, in the last couple decades, they've done several really, lots of really good studies and they showed no risk. So now we know that these phytoestrogens do not act the same way as the hormone estrogen. They're very weak. In fact, they could even block estrogen at the receptor site because human breast tissue has estrogen receptors and phytoestrogens block the estrogen at the receptor site. So they could even protect against breast cancer. Right, because the body's confused and it thinks it's estrogen, but it's a phytoestrogen. Exactly.

But just recap what the controversy is. I mean, the understanding or sort of the controversy stems from this idea that these phytoestrogens in soy somehow can raise estrogen levels, which is going to make particularly men like run from the hills from the idea of eating soy. But there have been, there's no science to ever prove that that's true.

There's no studies that have ever proven that there are feminizing effects for soy. And in fact, again, I go back to Asia. I mean, there have been no, I mean, people eat soy for centuries. This tofu and soy foods have been around for thousands of years in Asia, and there have been no documented feminization effects. And there are no studies that show that there are feminizing effects of soy in men. But that idea came from, there were some studies. I think there was an animal study a long time ago, but there are no human studies that show conclusively that there are feminizing effects.

I am aware of. I've never seen a study that shows that. Interesting. Yeah, but there's, there's just so much misinformation. If you, um, Google soy dangers, I, I did this recently and it was like over 1 million hits, you know, there's just so much that's been written on it. And, um, that's this, you know, as amazing as the internet is, that's the scary thing is that, um, you know, in terms of the way the Google algorithm works, I mean, when there's a controversy, the sort of controversial aspect of something tends to rise at the top.

In the same way that if you Google the China study, the first thing that comes up is like the China study is debunked, you know, which is like that ends up dominating the discussion unnecessarily when it's, you know, it's not really a fair or balanced kind of approach to the information. But all right, well, that's interesting. So then what's the difference between, I mean, my, my rule has always been, I mean, I eat soy, tofu, but I, I kind of, I do it sparingly because I do harbor some fear about this controversy because I don't, I'm not performing the research. I don't know what it, you know, what it is. All I know is that some people are saying it's bad and some people are saying, don't worry about it. So I'm like, all right, well, maybe I should just not eat too much of this, but I do end up eating quite a bit of fermented soy.

So more like tempeh and miso as opposed to just tofu. I don't eat plenty of edamame. I think it's great. And I do think you raise a good point because the studies that have looked at safety, for instance, now we have all these studies on breast cancer safety, and they're looking at how much soy is safe and they're finding one to two servings a day for women. And even breast cancer survivors is safe. Maybe even studies have shown even up to three. Because in Japan, that's the levels they're consuming soy. I mean, it's high.

And they have one-fifth the rate of breast cancer as we do. So, you kind of have to look at the population. Of course, you know, they have this beautiful diet with a lot of vegetables, you know, they, they have very low animal. Right. I mean, yeah, the sort of way to undercut that would just say, well, that's not exactly, you know, there's a lot of variables that are coming into play here that it's hard to extrapolate this one, you know, I know that's the problem from that, but. But you kind of can look at a population and say, and this goes back for centuries, and you can see that they have low rates a few months, well, about a year ago now, that soy is safe for breast cancer survivors and for everyday people, one to two servings a day. So that kind of gives me, because if people have a way of like overdoing a good thing,

so soy is safe, just like anything, it's the dose. I mean, if you had something that you just ate huge amounts on a daily basis, who knows what? It could be harmful, you know. So it goes back to this idea that when you overdo something and now we have supplements where people are actually popping isoflavones. So then you're getting high amounts that you would never get in actual food, you know. So I think that's dangerous. get in actual food, you know? So I think that's dangerous, but I think just, you know, a serving of whole soy foods like tofu, edamame, um, tempeh one or two a day, that that's what I practice for myself. Yeah. I try, I usually have soy milk and then I have a tofu or tempeh once every day or so or edamame. So I'm probably getting like one and a half servings a day. And I feel good about that, you know, but I, I wouldn't want to have soy at every meal,

you know, and every snack, because then I think you're getting to be too much. And we don't know about that level of intake. And so what, wait, what were those organizations that you wrote? The American Institute for Cancer Research? Yes. And then American Cancer Society. See, when I hear that, like it, it like provokes my conspiracy Society. See, when I hear that, it provokes my conspiracy theory. Well, because you hear like, well, the USDA recommends, and then alarm bells go off in my mind. I'm like, well, who cares what the USDA recommends? I mean, you can't really make the argument that they're acting in our best interest. They're influenced by many gigantic corporate interests, and there's a lot of politicking at play.

So when I hear like this organization is endorsing this, you know, I immediately go, well, how is that organization funded? And who's behind that and who's influencing them? And what is, you know, who, who's their, you know, what lobbying firm are they working for? You know what I mean? Right, right, right. And I'm not saying that those organizations aren't completely above board and beyond that. It just, it like, it like provokes me to ask those questions. Well, I think that, I mean, we all should be aware of these things.

We should all explore. I mean, in my mind, the American Institute for Cancer Research is a very well-respected cancer organization. One of the best, you know, one of the most respected organizations in the world. Same thing with the Cancer Society. You can go online and look at their boards and everything. And actually, the American Institute for Cancer Research is very pro-plant-based diet. I mean, it's all over their website because they look at the—they're very into prevention and diet. website because they look at the, they're very into prevention and diet. So they have something called the new American plate. That's that really shows that, you know, the animal protein should be

like this tiny amount and everything else should be plant foods, you know? So, um, I have, I have faith in those two organizations, like the American diabetes association. Those, you know, are in that same level. I know with the USDA, it's, you know, we have even experts, you know, we have people from Harvard saying that, you know, they're, they, for instance, they upped their requirement for dairy in the last go around. And now it's instead of two servings a day, it's three servings a day. And we have, I mean, somebody from Harvard, Walter Willett actually said, that's too much influence from the Dairy Council. have, I mean, somebody from Harvard, Walter Willett actually said that's too much influence from the dairy council. So, I mean, you know, we do have things like this. We have lobbyists, you know, it's good to keep your eyes open.

As a consumer though, it really causes vertigo. I mean, like who has time to sift through all of this nonsense and figure out what the truth is. And the truth is that none of us do, you know, and I'm more interested in this stuff than most people, and I don't want to waste all my time trying to navigate through who's influencing who. And the truth of the matter is that all of this debate and disagreement just keeps people in a paralytic state and reinforces whatever bad habits that they're already sort of adopted in their life because they just look at it and they go, well, all these people are just arguing and they can't figure it

out. So, you know, screw it. I'm just going to continue to eat the way that I do until they can make, you know, can get consensus about what we should or shouldn't do. Yeah. I hear that from people too. There's frustration and distrust. Um, I, you know, I'm in a position, I go to a lot of these conferences. I hear that, for instance, the experts that are involved in developing the dietary guidelines, I've been to some of these meetings before and they're very highly respected nutrition professionals from academia. But there's still, it's hard to not have little things filter through the cracks. We have a lot of wonderful nutrition experts in the United States that people all around the world

look to, and not everybody agrees. But I think when it comes to nutrition science is you look at the body of evidence. If you get that headline of some quacky study that comes out, like for instance, there has been something recently about fruits and vegetables don't protect you against cancer. Like, why are we even bothering? It was in the New York Times. Tons of press. But you have to look at the body of evidence for over 50 years, and that's not the case. I mean, when you have hundreds of studies saying the same thing, then you can start—

So who was behind that study? I mean, what was going on with that? Well, there were a few studies that looked at numbers of servings and didn't see the promising effects for cancer that we would think, but they looked at the data in these large ways. Like for instance, some vegetables are very high in antioxidants. So if somebody is just eating like iceberg lettuce every day, it's not going to account for, you know, they're just looking at

these big numbers, you know? So some of the studies didn't really show this promising effect of eating fruits and vegetables for cancer, but other studies have shown it. So, you know, there's this, there's this small little debate, you know, that maybe it's not, maybe you, it doesn't really matter what you do. Well, it's just basically you can, you can cherry pick the study that supports your worldview and then use that to support your argument about why somebody should eat this way or that way or X, Y, and Z. Right. I mean, and increasingly that becomes the case and who's going to go, you know, dive into the actual study and figure out who paid for it and how they actually conducted it and poke the holes in it. And, you know, it's just it's too burdensome, you know.

And so I think that kind of dovetails into something that is a really important thing that I wanted to talk about, which is the kind of recent ascendancy of this. I don't know if it's not really fair to, you know, well, the paleo diet for one, and, and it's sort of kindred cousin, although, you know, these are different things that kind of, uh, high fat, low carb, very low carb diet that's going on right now. And I have to be sort of careful and cautious about how I phrase these things because, you know, some paleo people are not low carb and some are and it gets all confusing. Yeah. People doing different things. And certainly there are a lot of paleo people that listen to this podcast and I welcome them. And I think that there's a lot of really great things about the paleo diet.

It's certainly better than the standard American diet. And I think it gets people thinking about the impact of dairy and our food system, you know, and thinking about sustainable ways of creating food for us. And, you know, there's this focus on grass-fed, which I want to talk about a little bit. So there's a lot of good things about it. Of course, I disagree on certain aspects of it, but it's very popular right now. It's definitely kind of the predominant diet in terms of, you know, the mainstream kind of, you know, sort of trend at the moment. So I'm interested in your perspective on that. Yeah, I think it's kind of ironic that I feel like there's these two big

diet camps right now, and it's like the paleo and the plant-based. And you're right that there are some commonalities, but then there's huge divides too. But it's interesting that those are the two big kind of diets right now. And in some ways, it's also interesting because it's not about some punitive, like micromanaged diet. It's more about a philosophy, which I like that. I like that these two diets are more about this kind of bigger picture of eating. So I was reading something recently that somebody said that our old ideas of diets are going by the wayside. Now we're actually thinking about a way of life. When we talk about our diet, it's not something we go, people don't, they actually did a survey and people don't think of a diet as an on and off thing like they used to.

It's like, this is, oh, it's this philosophy I want to take on, which I like that. That's a positive step. I think that's a great thing. And I think, you know, certainly paleo speaks to that in many ways, this idea of getting back to nature. I don't know that anyone really wants to live the way that people live when they're in the paleolithic era. And there's certainly debate about what people were actually eating and doing during that period of time that extends beyond the scope of this podcast, but, but there is definitely this idea of, of messaging people and appealing to this sensibility of, you know, connecting to the earth and the planet in a new and different and healthier and more tactile way. And I think that

that is also a reaction to the modernization of society. We're becoming so much more and more, uh, um, you know, disenfranchised from the planet, disconnected from nature and, and kind of having that experience on a real tactile level of just being connected to the earth. I mean, we're always in nature. We're in nature right now. We're in the studio, but we're in nature. There's no distinction between being in nature and not in nature. You're always in nature, but we're not, we're not connected to the planet in the way that we once were. And I think that we're hardwired through our DNA to, we have a need to experience that. And the fact that we're not is causes like existential crises and emotional problems and all sorts of things. So I think the paleo movement really is, in some ways, speaks to that need, and it does it very effectively.

I think the plant-based movement, maybe they don't message as effectively. It's not a cohesive whole that's trying to, I don't know, wrap everything up in a neat package and sell you something at the same time. So it's different in that regard, but I think it shares this philosophy of adopting a lifestyle as opposed to here's a quick way to lose five pounds. Right. Yeah, I agree. I think that it is an interesting way to think about dieting and our food, the big picture. And that's one thing that I'm passionate about in plant-based eating is that people really think about how their

food is grown. You know, that plants have nourished, you know, nourished people since the dawn of time. You know, we have this symbiotic relationship with plants. We help plants, plants help us. And, you know, scientists are learning new things every day about what, you know, what is inside that plant, you know, scientists are learning new things every day about what, you know, what is inside that plant. You know, and we used to have this connection where everybody had a kitchen garden. There were more farmers. And during my lifetime, that just evaporated. People don't know where their food. I mean, I've done nutrition classes in schools and brought a basket of produce.

And I had an orange. And one child had never seen an orange, you know, they'd seen orange juice, but never a fresh orange and then a potato. They'd never seen a potato, only French fries, you know? So, and the same thing with meat, you know, we, you know, we see that neat styrofoam tray, but we don't have any idea how it got there, how the animals are treated, you know? Well, there's a lot of energy that goes into preventing us from having an understanding of what that entails. Because if we really did experience, you know, if we kind of walked the trail of, you know, from cattle farm to slaughterhouse to distribution facility to grocery

store, I think that, you know, a lot of people would change their perspective on it. Right. I think that's important that the industry prevents us from really seeing that. I think that, you know, people like Michael Pollan and the movie Food Inc. when the, you know, that really opened a lot of people's eyes and really, you know, for the first time. When you see those chicken farms and everything, it's crazy. I mean, people hadn't even thought of these things. We're so removed from our food system. So I really love this new appreciation.

Survey after survey shows that people are more concerned about how their food is grown. They want transparency. They want sustainable food systems. So, I mean, that's wonderful. Nobody cared about this before. Right. So, you know, in that regard, I think the paleo movement has some positive things, you know, that there's a quality, there's the quality factor and the way things are grown. Yeah.

I mean, it's amazing to see so many young people interested in this as well. I just got back. I spoke at Colorado College a couple of weeks ago, and they have like a whole community of young people that are really into permaculture and sustainable energy systems and plant-based diet and all these sorts of things. And it's like, wow, when I was in college, nobody was interested in that kind of thing. in permaculture and then going off and working in organic gardens, regardless of whatever your dietary preference is, that gives me hope and that gives me optimism for the future. But then when you talk about going into a classroom and showing a kid a potato and he doesn't know what that is, I don't know. That counterbalance is my optimism, I think. Yeah. Well, this was a few years ago, but I'm sure you could go to any classroom in LA and find the same results.

I mean, even though we have this movement and I love it, it's growing. And the young generation is, who knows what they're gonna do because they are so on fire. Whenever I go to a college campus, I'm so invigorated because these kids are passionate about it.

They really are. Yeah, they're kind of like our, my kids are high about it. They really are. Yeah. It's, you know, they're kind of like our, you know, the, my kids are high schoolers right now, but they're, you know, they've been hearing this from me at the dinner table, you know? So it's just, it's like, they're the first generation listening to their parents, you know, and, and they're really interesting. You know, I think right now, you know, the so-called millennials, right. This is what we're calling this generation. And they get a lot of heat, like, oh, they're, they're, you know, entitled and they're just lazy and they don't want to go outside. They just want to play video games and

they're going to live at their parents' house forever. And they're, they don't care about careers and colleges out the window and all sorts of stuff. And my experience with this generation is that I find them incredibly conscientious and very enterprising and in a way that in certain respects admittedly defies our current economic paradigm because they look at it as broken. They're like, what is the point of doing it the way that you did it? Look where it got us. And they're kind of holding us accountable. And now it's their turn to inherit the earth. And they're kind of holding us accountable. And, you know, now it's their turn to inherit the earth. And I see people with big dreams. And I think the biggest

distinguishing factor is this commitment to service, a commitment to an ideal or something larger than I just have to get the best job that's the most secure, that's going to, you know, allow me to buy a house and a nice car. Yeah. It seems like that's not even on their radar. Like the white picket fence dream is... Well, that's gone anyway. I mean, it doesn't exist anyway. And I think they've grown up seeing a lot of economic turmoil. They've seen parents and friends of parents losing their jobs and all sorts of things.

So they understand intuitively that it's not a secure system, you know, and sort of to premise your career choice on this idea that you're going to get a job and stay there. And it's then, and that corporation is going to take care of you is like a non-starter because it's, it's a fantasy that maybe our generation still kind of holds onto, even though it's eroding all around us. I think so. I think, you know, they're very optimistic. And, you know, some of the things that we are discovering, they just take for granted. You know, we, you know, are applying all these things about sustainability and about, you know, recycling and all these things. And this is just in their DNA now. It's not even, it's just automatically there, the way they're

thinking about things. So, you know, it gives them the freedom to even, you know, go and follow their dreams, you know, whether it's to do permaculture in Africa or start a sustainable organic farm or, you know. Right. They're all interested in working for NGOs and, you know, it's pretty cool. So, I mean, what are your, so you have two, how many kids do you have? I have two sons. Two sons and they're both in high school I mean, what are your, so you have two, how many kids do you have? I have two sons. Two sons. Yeah. And they're both in high school.

And so what are they into right now? Well, they're both kind of like computer science type. You know, they're very analytical, great with math. I mean, they can pretty much do anything. So I think they're with a computer. I mean, they could just take one apart, put it back together, design things, you know. So they both seem interested in that, you know,

but they're, they're fitting along in their philosophy with what you're talking about. This whole attitude about life. And are they like, are they, are they fully plant powered? Are they on the plant power program? They are in their own,

their own spectrum. Right. Cause I think that's a big, um, you know, I have four kids and the question always comes up, like, how do you get your kids to eat healthier?

Or, you know, how could you possibly, you know, convince your kids that they should be eating a plant-based diet? Or I'm so frustrated, I just, I can't even get the Fritos, you know, get my child to drop the Fritos and the Coke. Like, how do I start? Yeah, I know that's a frustrating thing. You know,

I, I feel like with kids, it really is a slow, a slow thing, especially, you know, fruits and vegetables. A big thing you hear all the time is that kids don't like, you know, that's to me is one of the most important issues. And I'm one of the things that I think is really important is to expose your kids. I mean, even if they say no, have it there every day at the dinner table, have fruits and vegetables. You know. There's a study that shows that the more times a kid's introduced to it, they will eventually taste it. It's just a matter of exposure, like seeing it to think it's normal, but just to not even have it around is not the solution. And then I think having these healthy choices in the home. I mean, there's no need to have these junk foods around

where people are going to eat them. If your home is stocked with healthy, wholesome food, that's what people will eat because they're hungry. There's nothing else. Those are the things people are surrounded with. But I also think things like having a little garden at home, if you have a little tiny piece of dirt, don't put the petunias there, plant fruits and vegetables. So they actually pick them. Kids love, um, farms and gardens. They love to pick strawberries and eat them. You know, it introduces all these flavors, you know? I think that, that, uh, yeah, I mean, that's a good point. And you don't need like acres to do this. I think there's an idea that like, well, I don't have any room. Like you could just get a tiny little strip and you would be amazed at how much food it will produce. And it's like this remarkable thing. You're like, I had no idea. I think the other important aspect that you touched on is the emotional attachment that occurs when you sort of bring the child into the process of planting it, taking care of it, and then harvesting it, you know, in the backyard, that creates an emotional connection to the process of where the food

comes from, but also to the preparation of the foods. Like the child is going to want to eat that food because that child, you know, like grew it him or herself. Right? And there's a pride that takes over. And I think that that process then sort of enhances their capacity or enhances their interest level in this whole endeavor. You know what I mean? So what I always say to people is, first of all, you have to lead, you have to lead by example. You, you know, you can't, they say in recovery, you can't transmit something you haven't got. Right. So, so if you're, you know, sneaking Fritos in the middle of the night, or you're not walking your talk, kids know that I don't care if they're one year old or whatever, kids are very intuitive with

respect to that. So you have to sort of clean your own house first, um, cause it comes from the top down. And, and then, like you said, you, you stock the kitchen with all these healthy things and you're like, this, this is what we eat here. You know, this is what we eat. And there may be some resistance or sort of a, an acclimation period to that. But I think when the parents are eating this way, then you're setting the tone for it. And then the second thing that we always talk about is taking that idea of, you know, that example of the garden, but applying that also to the shopping and to the cooking. So you can take your children, however young they are, to the grocery store, and that's a learning opportunity. Hey, let's talk about where these foods came from.

These foods are good for this. These are healthy because of this. Everything is an educational opportunity. And I think the more that you can engage them in that process, again, that sort of cements this idea that this is important and something that they should be interested in. that they should be interested in. And then in the preparation, if you can have them participate in these recipes, some of the simpler ones that they can get involved in, that again creates that sort of self-esteem and pride. They're like, hey, look what I made. And then they want to make that again. The example we always use is chia seed pudding. Our kids love chia seed pudding. It's super easy to make. You have to supervise the younger ones because you're using a Cuisinart,

but the way that their faces light up when they make it and then they taste it and they're like, wow, it tastes really good. And it was so easy to make. And then they want to share it like, here, have the thing that I made. And then that's what they want to eat. Right. That's so true. Sometimes we talk about nutrition or diet in a negative way, but if we talk about all the positives, about how delicious foods are instead of like, oh, don't eat the Cheetos or whatever, you know, just saying how delicious the strawberries are right now. And, you know, this is strawberry season in California. I mean, I don't know what kid's not going to like strawberries at this time of year, you know? So if you always take the positive side instead of so much the food police side and just have these foods in the environment.

And I love what you're talking about with cooking with your kids. That's so important. You know, we don't cook anymore. That's a huge part of our health problems. We don't have home ec in the classroom. So kids aren't learning how to cook. And if you just go out to fast food and, you know, out to eat, it's really hard to eat a wholesome diet. So getting kids in the kitchen and cooking so they hand these life lessons down to their own children and the next

generation, so important. But also like we were talking about in the supermarkets, farmer's markets to me are really an ideal thing for kids because these foods are picked fresh from the farm, sometimes hours before the farmer's market. And they are the ripest, you know, these foods are picked fresh from the farm, sometimes hours before the farmer's market. And they are the ripest, freshest, most delicious plant foods you'll ever have. And they, a lot of times they'll give samples to kids, you know, so they can try all these things they might not have ever tasted. And to me, that's one way to get kids really excited. Not only that, usually the person who grew it is standing right there and you could say, how did you do this?

Like, how does this happen? How many times, you know, what time of year does this grow? And, you know, everything is like, and it's like, these are things like I feel like we should all just know that we learned growing up. But because of the society we live in, we really don't. You know, and I'm like, I don't know how you grow certain things. You know what I mean? And so you go to the farmer's market and then there's the, there's the dude and it's amazing how he's excited to tell you about it. If you ask, because this is what he's passionate about. Exactly. I always ask whenever I'm at my

farmer's market, I ask the farmer, you know, like, Oh, how was your week? Did you have, was it really hot? You know? And how did the plants grow? And he'll tell me like he had a bounty of whether it's tomatoes in the summer or whatever is growing well. And I mean, it's just that relationship with who grows our food. And, you know, I asked them if I haven't met that farmer, I'll ask him what he uses. Does he use pesticides or fertilizers? Because sometimes they won't say organic because they can't afford to be certified as organic, but they're producing their produce without pesticides, you know. Right. So you can ask him those questions.

And with kids, that's very influential when they see the farmer and they, you know, they think of this family, you know, they're small family farms picking their own produce. Right. So there's that connection. Yeah. That connection is, that's what it's all about. So there's that connection. Yeah, that connection. That's what it's all about. And certainly not everybody has access to a farmer's market, and not everybody can afford it, and there are economic considerations that come into play.

But I think if you do have access to a farmer's market, a lot of these farmers, they want to help, and they want to make it available to you. And there are ways of sort of, you know, bartering or negotiating with them to try to get these foods at a more affordable rate if cost is a concern. But I think the bigger thing, which is what you were talking about, which I love, is like, you could take this food home and you're slicing that tomato and you could feel great about it because you know that you supported that guy who was bucking the system by having this small organic farm and trying to make a difference. And you, I mean supported that guy who is bucking the system by having this small organic farm and trying to make a difference. And you, I mean, that's how do you, you can't, I mean, you can't replace that. That doesn't come from, you know, buying the tomato at the, at the Ralph's, right? You know, that you're supporting this guy who's put love into growing this and that's a

special thing, you know? And I think that goes back to something that I think paleo speaks to really well in that messaging that we were talking about earlier, which is this idea of trying to find a way to connect in a more meaningful way with our planet. Right. I agree wholeheartedly with that whole idea that, you know, that it's that connection. And when you, you know, like when you're shopping the farmer's market, you can, you know, get to know the people that are growing your food and appreciate what they're doing. And, you know, there's a lot of value to that. Right. I mean, both of my parents were farmers.

And it's interesting because. So now I'm getting a better picture of this. Yeah. Growing up in Washington. Well, they were farmers as children. I didn't grow up on a farm. But it's interesting because, you know, I'll show my mom and dad like food ink or things like that just to get their perspective because they were farmers. You know, this was during the Depression, you know.

Right. And, you know, they lived on small farms and they're just horrified, you know, because they, you know, every animal had a name. They were always treated, you know, they didn't have, you know, only animal. I mean, every farm in those days had animals, whether you were growing soybeans or corn, you always had a cow for your family's milk or whatever, you know, chickens for your eggs. That was the way families, family farms were that it wasn't monoculture, That was the way family farms were. It wasn't monoculture, you know.

But anyway, it's funny that the perspective of, you know, kids growing up in the Depression, you know, they are just horrified at the conditions of, you know, CAFOs and, you know, modern farming, that kind of thing. Because it was, you know, there was always this value on animals and that they should never be mistreated. It was just part of, if you were a good farmer, you would always take good care of your animals. Right. But it also sounds utopian. I mean, we have this ridiculous population explosion. How are we going to feed all these people, Sharon? I know that's another problem, but a plant-based diet. I mean, there's a lot written about, you know, how we can feed the future, and animal agriculture is the most intensive for water and fuel and land space. So, I mean, the UK recently recommended that their population cut their meat intake by half because of sustainability and for feeding the future. The UN made a report, a similar report. UN made a report, a similar report.

So, you know, our current system is not sustainable. And the rate at which we are reproducing is insane. You know, if you were to look at it from a 10,000 foot view and look down on the earth, it's like, how is this going to continue? You know, it can't. It can't continue the way that it is. We have too many people. We have declining resources. And it's not even, you know, at some point, it's not even going to be a choice. I mean, meat is going to be an absolute luxury for the 1%, I think, because we can't continue to produce livestock in the way that we are.

It's not going to scale, you know, and we're going to continue to see greater and greater degrees of disease and all these problems. And then that's going to get more science and GMOs. And this is spiraling completely out of control. And so, sure, you know, the idea of grass fed has its certain appeal to a certain sector of the economy. And it's certainly better than, than, you know,

sort of a factory farm raised livestock, but you're not going to be able to feed the planet that way. And I think there's a lot of misinformation about what grass fed actually is. You know, we have this sort of idyllic idea of what it is, but I think the reality of it is probably in most cases, not all cases, um,

really quite different. Yeah. I mean, you're always going probably in most cases, not all cases, really quite different. Yeah. I mean, you're always going to have the ranchers who just meet the bare minimum requirement of how many hours or how much time the animal has to be exposed to grass to be labeled as grass fed. Right. But then you're going to have farmers that are exceeding those standards. You know, it's just you're always going to have that. are, you know, exceeding those standards, you know, it's just, you're always going to have that. But you're right. I mean, the whole case of it's, it would be impractical to feed the world, you know, with

these large ranches where they get lots of time to graze, you know, I mean, how are you going to feed the world that kind of diet? It's not going to be practical. So, I mean, it just goes back to even if people could cut back, like for instance, beef is the most resource intensive of the animal proteins. In terms of water and land mass and- And fossil fuels. Carbon imprint and all that. Right.

So, you know, actually beef intake has reduced recently. So that's encouraging. And I think it's a result of all this attention, like what we're talking about. So, you know, if we start reducing meat intake and start eating, you know, you can eat plants directly. I mentioned this before. So you could grow a crop like soy or corn and eat it directly, or you can grow it and feed it to an animal who turns it into protein. But that conversion is so inefficient. You're losing so much energy and everything along the way. Right. It's like the engine on a 1970s car where the amount of propulsion that you're getting at the axle isn't what's going on at the piston,

right? Because you're losing so much of it along the chain. Exactly. And actually that applies to all foods. The more you eat them in the natural state, the less resources. So if you eat an apple from a tree, the only thing that happened was that the farmer picked it, washed it off, put it in a box, and took it to the farmer's market or whatever. That's very little resources along the way. But if you turn that into apple juice or applesauce and then package it and it gets sent to a processing plant and all those resources that happen. So the more whole foods we eat, the less resource intensive and better for the planet. Right. I mean, I think that I've been thinking about this a lot lately and it seems to me that there's a lot of kind of emotional baggage that gets tied up in the dogma behind these labels that we attach to these lifestyles or these diets,

whether it's vegetarian or vegan or high-fat, low-carb, paleo, Atkins, Mediterranean, South Beach, or whatever it is. Everybody has an opinion about it. They're like, you just say that thing, and you're like, I have an idea about that. I has an opinion about it. They're like, you just say that thing and you're like, I have an idea about that. I have an opinion about that. And we get very caught up in that. And I think that we could solve a lot of these problems by simply saying, when in doubt, eat lower on the food chain. Eat as low on the food chain as possible.

Forget about all these labels and all this other kind of nonsense. Just how low on the food chain are you eating? The higher up you eat, the more resources are involved. The more likely, you know, the higher up you eat, it's going to be animal flesh most likely. And that has all the sort of toxins and pesticides from all the other foods that it's being fed, all the GMO foods and all the, you know, the fish start to store up, the mercury and all these sorts of things that are happening. So how can you eat lower on the food chain? That's exactly right. I say the same thing. I always say eat as close to mother nature

as possible. Like eat the food as close as it, you know, is found in mother nature so that when you actually see the food, you see how it was grown. You can actually envision the apple growing on the tree, or if you're eating quinoa, you can actually see that grain, which is a seed from a grass plant. So, you know, the, the more you're eating close to nature, um, it's the best for human health and health of the environment as well. Right. So I want to talk about these, these conferences that you go to, right. Do you know, um, do you know Andy Bilotti? I do. Okay. So I love Andy. I had him on the podcast too. He's a firecracker. I love how on social media, he's constantly pulling covers on, um, on his own industry when appropriate and these big corporations that are sort of infiltrating his profession

and your profession. And so I'm interested in your perspective on this when you attend these conferences where you find out that Pepsi or McDonald's is sponsoring this sort of initiative to improve health among whatever sector of the economy it is. And to see that and, and, and to realize the dissonance between what your profession is about and, and how it's being impacted by big dollars from companies whose interests are, you know, quite at odds with your own, your own goals. Yeah. I think it's a big issue in my profession right now. You know, I'm really proud of being a dietitian. I feel like we're the ones that have the best education in terms of nutrition to really equip us to deal with day-to-day nutrition issues, you know, working in a hospital or with patients or whatever. So I'm really proud of our profession.

I feel like we have that real basis of knowledge and education and we're required to keep our continuing education up and everything. So, you know, I'm passionate about that. But unfortunately, you know, it's organizations like our organization have been funded along the way by food industry, you know. So the argument is we wouldn't be able to have an organization if we didn't have sponsorships, right? Right. So then in creep sponsorships that are not that desirable that most dietitians would

not want to affiliate. The spinach industry is not going to be. Exactly. They're not going to have it together enough to. You have things that, you know, my opinion is that our organization shouldn't be affiliated with any kind of food company that disagrees with our good nutrition philosophy. I mean, we should have complete freedom to make nutrition recommendations. And of course we do, but we shouldn't be funded by an organization that disagrees with what we're

recommending to the public. Right. And so explain to somebody who's listening how this all works, somebody who might not understand what you're talking about in terms of... Probably the biggest area that it would happen is in our annual conferences. We have an annual meeting. It's a large nutrition conference with dieticians and researchers and the food industry. And the food industry will sponsor that meeting because it's very expensive. So how many dietitians would typically attend this? I think, I'm just guessing.

I think it's like 7,000. It's huge. It's going to be in Atlanta in the fall. And I go every year to this event. So there's an exhibit hall with all the food companies and dietitians can go and talk to them and pick up nutrition information. So there's that aspect. And I feel like that's one thing because as a dietitian, I don't have to go into that booth. It's all marketing.

I'm smart enough to know what I – just if you go to Natural Food Expo, I don't know if you go to that one. Yeah, I've been. You know which booths you're going to go into and which you're not going to go into. So I really don't have a you go to that one. Yeah, I've been. You know which booths you're going to go into and which you're not going to go into. So I really don't have a problem with that so much. But then there are large sponsorships that fund the entire event, like gold-type sponsorships. And some of those have been food companies in the past that really shouldn't be aligned with the nutrition philosophy in my mind. It even goes beyond that, though, doesn't it? Because they're sponsored, like here, take the McDonald's education on how to improve the health of your children or things like that.

We were like, what, really? Like it's almost comical. I know, I know. And things, I mean, our organization is really going through a lot right now, evaluating all this. I'm not an official leader in my work. It's the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics that we're talking about. So, for instance, I'm speaking at this in Atlanta in October.

And what I am required to do is I have to be so transparent. I mean, they review everything. Oh, really? So, basically, things have changed because of people speaking up. I mean, there is a huge push because you're right. I mean, somebody might sponsor a talk. I've been to some of these talks and it was very easy to see who sponsored it. And then you thought, well, I just wasted my time.

I do think that dietitians are smart enough to know. But the idea behind that is that on some level, on some, you know, corporate level, the idea is that we'll, we'll sort of go in here, you know, whether you're McDonald's or Pepsi, and we're going to try to hoodwink these dietitians into being proxies for our products that we're trying to sell. And that's sort of analogous, I suppose, to how in certain respects respects the pharmaceutical industry works with respect to sales reps and doctors or what have you. And not to say that, you know, there's a lot of great pharmaceuticals out there. There's a lot of amazing things about Western medicine.

We need these things. But sometimes, you know, there are certain lines that get crossed with that. All right. There has to be separation. I mean, and that's a good example because the American Medical Association has already been through this with pharmaceuticals. They've already faced that crisis and they had to have separation. So I think our profession is in that period right now where we're trying to figure out how we're going to separate all this out. organizations that I think are amazing. Andy is in one of them as well. Like for instance, we have one that's called the Hunger and Environmental Dietetic Practice Group. And they have sponsors, but they have this huge ethics policy and it has to be approved. Their philosophy has to match the philosophy of the organization. And it's very tightly controlled so that it's very much in line with that organization because they couldn't afford to do some of the things, you know,

to some of their organization events, you know, so, you know, I, it's not that I don't think there can be relationships, but it has to be better regulated. You know, for instance, sometimes I do education and it may be sponsored by, by, um, a food organization, but I, there's no, no, uh, exchange. I mean, I there's, they're not looking at my PowerPoint slides. It's all me. This is coming from me. They're just basically sponsoring it. So, you know, you can have, um, relationships like that. It's a difficult thing. I mean, you need the money to be able to put these events on and you got to be able to, you know, when is it okay to take the money and when is it not? And, you know, how do you, you know, how do you act as the defining rod on, you know,

where is that line? I know. And I know that's true for a lot of, you know, people in various professions, you know, that have sponsorships and finding that ethical place where it's not influencing you. Right. I mean, we live in a commercial society where we're consumers. We have to be able to function in this world. We have to pay the bills. And there's a benefit to having these conferences and these conferences cost money. So you need sponsors, right? So, you know, it's, it's not an easy situation. I, I wrote an article once about nutrition science, like, because people are distrustful of science because they think it

got funded by a company that maybe had something to gain. And I, and during my research, I found that in Japan, they have tried to separate out this sponsorship so that, for instance, if a company, if they were going to sponsor a study, it has to be in a field completely opposite, that they would have no benefit for that research. So, for instance, if you were a food company, you might have to do a study in a field that had nothing to do with food so that there's a separation. Why would they be incentivized to do that then? It's kind of like this giving back, this social responsibility.

I'll never work here. Yeah, I guess it's a cultural thing. Because in Japan, you know, there's this feeling of that, you know, very part of their culture that, you know, that if you've done well, you have to give back to society. You know, you're a contributing part of society. I mean, we do have social responsibility in companies. You know, like a lot of the big food companies are starting, you know, school gardens. And, you know, they all have their social responsibility page on their website. They're doing something, you know, they're all, they all have their social responsibility page on their website. They're, they're doing something, you know, it's all about the younger generation because I'm just imagining like, Oh, you know, telling the CEO of general motors that he has to

sponsor, you know, that he has to sponsor, uh, a study about the impact of, you know, sugar on, you know, infants or something like that has nothing to do with this business. You'd be like, what, why would I do that? I would never happen. But you know, we do have, in terms of nutrition science, the buck is really supposed to stop with the journals. Like for instance, if you're the journal of the American Medical Association, you are supposed to peer review that science and make sure there's no ethical issues because it's your name on the line. You're supposed to be the gatekeeper there. Right.

And that's kind of the way the system works, at least, and it doesn't always work perfectly, but that's the way it's designed right now. I mean, my main, I'm not gonna read those journals myself. So my main, one of my biggest sort of go-to resources when I want a question answered, or I want like a little bit more information on a subject is I usually go to nutritionfacts.org, Michael Greger's site, who I love. I've had him

on the podcast too. It seems like he's got a video on almost everything that could ever come up. You know, I love it. Yeah, there's some great resources. So my question would be like, what are some other good ones that you could share with people? Of course, aside from all of your wonderful writing, SharonPalmer.com. Yeah, well, it would depend.

Like if you're looking for something like supplement or vitamin type things, I really like ConsumerLabs.com. They're excellent, you know, peer reviewed reviews on all the supplements. So if you were thinking about taking, you know, some supplement from the store, I would check them. That's interesting. That's good to know. And that is another question or subject matter that I wanted to get into with you, which is your opinion on supplements and their kind of, you know, place in this whole pantheon. Yeah. Well, um, when it comes to

plant-based diets, for instance, for a vegan diet, I recommend vitamin B12. I feel like there's just no way to get it on a, yeah, that you would be, do you encounter people that feel like they don't need to take B12? I know I encounter that. Um, there are a couple of raw vegans that I know, uh, that, that are, that have told me that they don't worry about it, that they feel like they get it off the micros because they're pulling their food out of the dirt and the dirt's on the food. And I haven't seen their blood test. I don't know. But I know that personally, I take a vitamin B12 supplement every single day. Yeah. I think that that has to be done. It's a very important nutrient, so you just have to get Yeah. I think that that has to be done. There's just

a very important nutrient, so you just have to get it. I mean, you can't rely that it might be in your almond milk. I mean, it could be, but are you having enough of it every day to get it? Right. Exactly. I mean, some of these foods are fortified for the listener. So almond milk, soy milk, coconut milk, and some breakfast cereals and other things are fortified with it, but you should always, you know, you should make sure that you're getting that. And we don't have to go into it at length here. I talked about it with Dr. Michael Clapper in an earlier episode. We talked about it at length. So if the listener wants to learn more about that, they can go back and listen to that conversation about it. So, all right. So B12, what else?

Well, in general, that's the one that I, that's the only one that I recommend that you automatically take if you're a vegan. I think it's possible to do everything else with, you know, on a, eating a really balanced, appropriate diet. And in general, I think we should get our nutrients from food instead of supplements. Of course. So, you know, a lot, I think that's becoming a more and more prominent idea among people, you know, that they want to eat the real food instead of popping the pills. And we, you know, we, now we know that actually it can be dangerous. Like for instance, in the case of beta carotene, it turned out that that was actually dangerous to take beta carotene, but there's no danger in eating beta carotene in food.

no danger in eating beta-carotene in food. It's that idea of holistic nutrition, the idea behind Colin Campbell's most recent book, this idea of supplementing with the idea of extracting one nutrient out of a food and saying we can solve this issue of deficiency by just supplementing with that one thing, which is kind of a myopic perspective on nutrition because it doesn't take into consideration the incredibly mystifying complex matrix of nutrients that come into play when you're eating that nutrient in the context of the entire food. That's exactly right. I mean, we don't even understand exactly what is found in, like, for instance, a blueberry. I mean, we're finding new phytochemicals in fruits and vegetables every day.

The scientists are finding new ones all the time. We know there are thousands of them, but every single plant food has these phytochemicals, they have these nutrients, and they're all in balance. You can't overdose when you eat a blueberry, but you could pop a pill with one isolated nutrient and have problems. So, you know, I really believe in eating the whole food. And if you're on a completely plant-based diet, that means a variety to make sure you're getting all your nutrients, not just eating the exact same salad for lunch every day, but mixing it up. So you get this variety of nutrients.

You know, most of the minerals and vitamins you can, you vitamins, calcium is one that people are concerned with, but if you're having tofu, you can get calcium in tofu and also in the- What's that? Dark leafy greens. Yes. I recommend dark leafy greens every day for everybody, at least a serving. So you can get calcium there. You can get it from almonds and the plant-based milk. Some of, most of them have calcium. So if you're eating a really careful, you know, balanced diet, you can get enough calcium. Vitamin D is a sunshine vitamin. Most,

most Americans get their vitamin D through milk because it's fortified with vitamin D. It doesn't come in there naturally. But vitamin D you can get from the sun, but now we all live and work indoors, so we don't get as much sun exposure as humans once got. Right. I think vitamin D deficiency is something that a lot of people suffer from. And I think it goes back to what you said, which is that you should always get all your nutrients from whole food. That is like step one, the most fundamental aspect of all of this. But I think that especially given the sort of declining nutritional density of our food system as our soil gets depleted and not being sure where the actual produce is coming from that

we're getting at the supermarket, I think it's becoming increasingly more facile for us to have these deficiencies. So I think, you know, you should get a blood test and see where you might be lacking. And I think supplementation in certain respects has its place, but it's not a replacement for trying to source that nutrient from the whole food itself. I agree. I get my blood tested once a year just to make sure. And I'm usually fine. I take B12, but I never have deficiencies. I eat a varied diet. But I do think it's important to get that tested. And it's not just plant-based eaters who are deficient. Right. This has nothing to do with being plant-based. Everybody should do that. And in fact, studies show that plant-based eaters have a higher intake of all the nutrients because they eat so many plant foods.

That's where all the vitamins and- Right, they eat nutrient-dense foods. Exactly. So you can eat calorie-rich, nutrient-poor foods, which is really kind of the standard American diet. You're eating a lot of calories. You can get fat that way, but you actually could be quite nutritionally deficient. Right. I mean, when you're packing every single bite with a plant-based food,

I mean, they're just packed with vitamins and minerals. One day I just did an experiment for the fun of it. I had a dietetic student who helped me and I took one day of my diet, you know, just one day I wrote it all down and she ran it through the nutritional analysis. And then we looked at how much. I mean, some of the vitamins, I was like in the 300% level. It was all so rich because everything is so high in vitamins and minerals. And that's not even looking at the phytochemicals. Right.

What about iron though? That's another one that people are worried about, especially women. Yeah. And athletes, too. Yeah, iron is something you have to be. It is found in legumes and grains. So, you know, there's two kinds of iron there. We're going to have the heme, non-heme discussion. Yes, I know. I don't want to get into all the boring stuff.

But just really quickly, you know, it can be done if you eat a very nutrient-dense diet. If you're going to be a plant-based eater eating vegan brownies, I really feel like it's not so much that those foods are unhealthy, it's that we can't afford to be wasting our calories on them. Every bite should really count. I mean, humans evolved eating nutrient-rich foods. We didn't have the extra calories to waste. There were no foods in our system that were just a waste of calories. Every bite had nutrition in it. And we just can't afford to be eating all these foods, you know, and filling our bodies. And then we're missing out on all the nutrition. So with iron, you know, we do have those sources. It's completely possible to get iron and zinc. And interestingly,

it looks like, you know, the heme iron, the one that is found in meat, it's maybe even dangerous to get too much. I don't know if you've been, that's on your radar. No, explain that. I've never heard that before. Yeah. You know, there's all these studies that show eating red meat have risks, you know, they're just study after study after study. So now they're like trying to figure out, okay, what is it in the red meat? Okay, there's saturated fat. There's also all these compounds like nitroso compounds and PAHs because all these toxins that are either in meat or in the processing of meat. That could be it. And then there's this heme iron theory because it's not good to get too much iron.

You should, I mean, people have this idea, the more the better, but in a lot of nutrients, that's not the case. And in iron, it's not the case. So, you know, there's some studies that showed that people with really high iron intake had higher risk of disease. So now they're looking at this. I mean, it's not a sure thing. This is at the beginning.

It's, you know, there's a theory because, you know, what is it when you boil down to it? What is it about that red meat that is so related to disease risk? You know, it's interesting. I mean, for the listener, there are these two kinds of iron. There's heme, the heme variety of iron, which is found in animal products. And then the only variety of iron that's found in the plant-based kingdom is non-heme. And there's this idea that heme iron is superior to non-heme for various reasons that you could probably elaborate on much more. Yeah, well, the main reason is that it's more absorbable.

That's the main reason. The main reason is that it's more absorbable. That's the main reason. And this iron is important to create new red blood cells in your system which carry oxygen throughout your body, right? Yeah. So, I mean, I don't take iron. My iron is fine. Your iron is fine.

I mean, that's just me. My just think it's important to eat a really diet with high variety when you're a plant-based eater. Eating the different kinds of grains, different kinds of beans, different kinds of fruits and vegetables. And again, making every bite count. And then I do agree with you that you should be tested for your checkup to make sure everything is in order. One tip on the iron thing one thing that i do is i eat a lot of pumpkin seeds which are high in high in iron and what i was told or what i what i understand is that if you eat uh foods high in iron that you should also eat something in conjunction with that that's high in vitamin, which helps with the absorption, which overcomes that argument about the lack of absorption with non-heme iron.

And also avoid coffee or tea within an hour on each side of that because the tannins in those drinks somehow interfere with the absorption. So I just keep a bag of pumpkin seeds in my car and like some oranges, and then I'll just, those I can snack on those. And then I'm always kind of, I know that I'm staying on top of my iron situation. That's a great idea. It's true about the vitamin C. Vitamin C in tandem with iron makes it more absorbable. So if you had, if you're eating an iron source, you know, most plant-based eaters get a lot of vitamin C just because, you know, tomatoes and bell peppers. I mean, they're all, there are abased eaters get a lot of vitamin C just because, you know, tomatoes and bell peppers. I mean, there's a lot of vitamin C in the food we're eating.

It's not just oranges, although that's a very good source, you know. Bell peppers are way higher, right? Yeah. Like they're like the best. Peppers are really high. Strawberries are high. Even broccoli. Almost all the fresh vegetables are pretty, you know, pretty.

And we're eating so many of them, it adds up very quickly. We usually have no problem getting vitamin C in the diet. Right. So we got on a little bit of a sidetrack, but we were talking about other resources that where people could go to learn more, have their questions answered. Yeah, well, I love Harvard School of Public Health. They've done some of the best nutrition research in the world and they have a lot of great resources there. I would trust anything they have. Mayo Clinic is another one that has great resources. The Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics have some consumer resources. It's more healthcare professional resources.

It kind of depends on what you're looking for. For instance, there's an organization called Old Ways. They have a lot of vegetarian resources and they also have Mediterranean diet resources and whole grain things there. And then, of course, the National Institutes of Health has good nutrition information, especially on nutrients and things like that. And, of course, your website.

Yes, of course. But you write for a whole bunch of different places, right? Who else do you write for? Well, I'm the editor of Environmental Nutrition, and I do some writing for them. I write for Today's Dietitian. I'm a contributing editor there. And then I just write like all over the place. Like for instance, I'm working on something for Yoga Journal right now and I've done Better Homes and Gardens. I just do articles in other places as well. And when you're thinking about your articles,

I mean, how do you make a decision about what you want to write about? A lot of times I look at what's going on. Like, for instance, of course, I write a lot about plant-based nutrition because that's my field. But sometimes I'm asked to write about other things, too. But I look at, for instance, sugar is really big right now, like sodas. That's a huge thing. You know, something that's really hot and in the news so that it answers people's questions, you know. On that subject, you know, a really interesting thing happened lately. There's this documentary that's about to be released.

It's called Fed Up, right? Are you familiar with this? I almost went to the screening. Oh, you did? There's another screening in L.A. I think next week. Oh, really? I'm going out of town. I, you did? There's another screening in LA, I think, next week. Oh, really? I'm going out of town. I'd really like to go to that.

And this is a documentary that kind of takes a look at the impact of sugar on our health crisis, on childhood obesity, etc. It kind of uses sugar as kind of a starting point to address what's wrong with diet in America. And I watched the trailer and I was like, oh, this is really interesting. Like, you know, Katie Couric is narrating it. And Laurie David, who's, you know, a very outspoken sort of environmentalist, used to be married to Larry David, is the executive producer. Larry David, is the executive producer. There are some serious people behind this movie, which I think is great because that means that this movie is going to be seen by a lot of people and a mainstream audience. And maybe it's hard to tell from the trailer, but maybe it's not the movie that I would make or what I would specifically focus on. But in my opinion,

the movie that I would make or what I would specifically focus on. But in my opinion, anything that shines a bright light on some of the problems that we have and creates a discussion around that I see as a good thing, right? So I post this on my Facebook page and I say, hey, check this out. This looks pretty interesting. I can't wait until this movie comes out. I really would like to see this movie. And then a very interesting discussion started to take place in the comments below me doing that. Everything from this looks amazing to, I cannot believe that you're supporting this documentary because the talking heads that kind of popped up in the trailer were people like Gary Taubes, who's, you know, a pioneer of this kind of high fat, low carb movement. Dr. Hyman, who I believe is the doctor that convinced Bill Clinton

that he needed to start eating a little bit of meat again. You know, these are people that are taking positions that are somewhat at odds with my own personal perspective and I would presume yours. But there was also Michael Pollan and Mark Bittman and other people that I can really feel good about getting behind and I support their message. The point being, it's not the perfect movie that fits, you know, it's not the square peg that fits into the square hole of the documentary that I would make, but I'm able to kind of see beyond that and say, listen, you know, we have big problems here. Like we should celebrate the fact that any documentary at all is being made. And I think it's myopic to say that, that our excessive intake of sugar does not contribute in, in, in, you know, to this problem in a certain way. So we can fight about fat and all

these animal products and all this other stuff, but kids are drinking too much soda. It's out of control. This is a problem. Do you not agree with that? I agree. And I haven't seen the trailer, so I'm not really sure who's the experts on this document. I can't wait to see it. But I agree that it seems like most of us are on the same page. You know, most of the nutrition experts, they all are saying that our diets, the Western diet with the highly processed foods is what's causing, you know, our obesity and type two diabetes epidemic. And there doesn't seem to be much disagreement with that. Although there's, you know, shades of, you know, the certain, Although there's shades of certain nutrients in terms of what percentage of our diet should be from carbohydrates or protein or fat.

But it seems like everybody's in agreement that we're eating too many highly processed foods, especially sugary foods. And it's overwhelming the evidence on sugar-sweetened beverages in children. on sugar sweetened beverages in children. In fact, there are some people that say, if you just took that out, maybe that's enough for the childhood obesity epidemic. I mean, I think that there needs to be more fruits and vegetables and exercise myself, but it's a huge thing that could be just so easily reversed. It is a problem.

I think to say, because some of the comments were like, sugar's not the problem. Sugar's no problem at all. It's because of the fat and it's because of, and it's like, how can you deny that, you know, when like six-year-old kids are drinking Big Gulps or, you know, putting down like eight Cokes a day, that this isn't like something that we should be taking a look at. And certainly is contributing in a certain way to childhood obesity and to, you and to diabetes and all these other problems that we have. Exactly. I mean, I don't think there's any argument about that.

I mean, I'm not in the camp that thinks sugar is toxic, like it's some poison, like smoking a cigarette, you know what I'm saying? But I do think that you can directly relate childhood obesity to sugar-sweetened beverages. And we now know that when you drink a soda, it does nothing to your appetite. I mean, you're getting 150 calories from a can, but you will eat the exact same portion of food. If you ate 150 calories of food, you would feel the effects of that food. You would feel a little more full. You would cut down.

But with soda, you just eat the same amount at that meal that you normally would. And there's no nutritional value, of course, in the soda as well. I think the fear with the movie is that when you see these sort of talking heads pop up that have positions that you disagree with, there's a fear reaction, which is, oh my gosh, these people are now, you know, now they're going to get to take center stage and I don't believe what they believe. And this, you know, and so goes the diet wars. Yeah, I know. I know. I just like to think about the things that we do agree with. And I think that most people do agree with the fact that our overly processed diet is really our big problem. You know, that we've, you know, humans evolved to eat plant foods that were rich, you know, rich in nutrients and low in energy density.

And now all these highly dense foods with no nutritional value are right in our, you know, at our fingertips 24 hours a day. you know, in our, at our fingertips 24 hours a day. And, you know, there's even, uh, now we know that, that we have this addictive qualities to food, like the fat and sugar combination, you know? So you put all of that around humans and it's no wonder that, you know, that we have the problems that we have today. Right. It really can be boiled down to what Michael Pollan said, which is eat real food, not too much, mostly plants, which quite possibly could go down in history as being as influential as Hippocrates saying, let food be thy medicine. It's quite prophetic. It's beautiful in its simplicity and so true in so many ways. And I think that if we can always kind of go back to that, that maybe we can find a way to unite in a certain respect and take a broader perspective on what's really going on, because we can argue about all these little things. But meanwhile, you know, the statistics

don't lie. And when you look at the extent to which Americans are suffering from heart disease, cancer, diabetes, you know, all these sort of illnesses suffering from heart disease, cancer, diabetes, all these sort of illnesses that can be addressed, prevented, and in certain cases reversed through diet and lifestyle alterations, predominantly by plant-based diet, we need to find a way to unite and get along. That's so true. We need to get along, Sharon Palmer. What do you think? How do we solve this?

I know. I think simplicity is really a great message. And I think that's one thing that's hitting home with the whole plant-based message. I get people all the time that are just trying to shift their diets. I mean, they actually are thinking, oh, I'm going to do meatless Monday, or they're just making these small changes, or I'm not going to go do a burger drive-thru for lunch every single day. Those are huge. You know, those small changes are huge things that we should celebrate. Right, right. And I, you know, there is, I love this fact that you could reduce your risk of chronic disease by 85%, 85% with diet, exercise, and no smoking. And that's a plant-based diet, right? So, I mean, there are no drugs on the market, you know,

that would ever promise that, but it's just, that's a powerful number. And you look at our increasing disease risks, you know, the chronic disease risks that we have. I even read recently that children are at risk for stroke now. I mean, that's just crazy. I mean, type two diabetes. I didn't know that was possible. I know. I'm sure this is still very marginal, but I read that there are cases of it now. Right. So, and this is, we're talking about elevated blood pressure, not just some fluky genetic

condition. This is actually a result of lifestyle. That's shocking. I know. Well, when I studied nutrition, type 2 diabetes was called adult onset because it was over 40. It was never called type 2. It was over 40. There was juvenile diabetes and adult onset diabetes. Right.

And now they had to change the name to type two because kids get it, you know, so it's, it's very sad, but on a promising level, you know, people are more interested in their health and, and it's not as difficult, you know, I hope people get the message that it's not some fad thing that you have to like, you know, get all geared up for and go on and then, you know, cheat to get, survive it. It's really about eating delicious foods. You know, I eat really delicious foods full of global flavors and herbs and spices and healthy fats like avocado and nuts and olive oil. So, you know, it's not a punishment for me at all.

Not for me either. And I've never felt better. Exactly. And, you know, I always say too, that, you know, I need to be, I have to remain open to the idea that if I wake up and I don't feel good, that I need to be able to kind of objectively look at what I'm doing and entertain the possibility of doing something different. And like I said, it continues to evolve and refine. But I've never had that moment where I said, you know, I feel like I need to eat meat because I feel weak or anything like that. It just hasn't occurred. So, I mean, it's been eight years. I suppose it could happen tomorrow or next year, but, you know, I'm just doing it day by day and I'm enjoying the lifestyle and I'm

seeing the benefit with my children and the other people that I work with and I believe in it wholeheartedly. Right. It's powerful. It's very powerful. It is. It's not a diet. It's a lifestyle. Yeah. Right. You're on board. It's a lifestyle. Yeah. Right. You're on board. That's exactly right.

Cool. Well, I think it's a good place to wrap it up. Thank you. Thank you. It was beautiful. It's been great fun. Yeah, it was good. How do you feel about it?

It was great conversation. I loved, I could talk all day about this stuff. So thank you so much for coming to the studio. If people want to connect with you and learn more about what you're doing, the best place to go is just to go to SharonPalmer.com, right? That's right. And what about like the social networks and all that stuff? Yeah, I have Facebook and Twitter and Pinterest.

What's your Twitter? SharonPalmerRD. Sure, that's right. Okay. And oh, you're on Pinterest. Sure. That's right. Okay. And, oh, you're on Pinterest. Yeah. That's like uncharted. I have a Pinterest account, but I don't really post there very much.

But for food and recipes and stuff, that's like the place, right? Because I'm really into culinary and cuisine. I love, you know, I do cooking demos. And I think that's a big part of it because people don't know how to cook and they think it's so hard. That's one of the challenges people have with plant-based diets is they feel like it's going to be too hard for them. And it's not that hard or that it's not going to taste good. So that's one thing I'm kind of passionate about. And so I post a lot of my recipes on my website. And do you have like a schedule of like if you're going to be doing a workshop somewhere or you're traveling around doing that, can people find out about that on

your site? Yes, they can find it on my website at Sharon Palmer.com. And what's the Pinterest? It's a plant powered. I have to think plant powered dietitian. All of a sudden I blanked on that one. All right. But there's probably a link from your website. Yes, yes, there is. And the books are the plant powered diet, Diet, which is Lifelong Eating Plan for Achieving Optimal Health Beginning Today. Right. Right? And that came out a couple of years ago, right? And then your more recent book is Plant-Powered for Life, Eat Your Way to Lasting Health with 52 Simple Step steps and 125 delicious recipes.

Yeah. And that one's coming out in July. Oh, it's not out yet. Yeah. Any day now. It's pre-order. You can get it, but it's pre-order on Amazon. Use the Amazon banner ad at richroll.com to pre-order Sharon's book. Then we both win. Yeah. That sounds great. And what's coming up. So you must be gearing up, getting ready for the book release and all that comes with that. That's right. I'm excited that the new book is really kind of what I call a rule book, where my first book was a Bible of plant-based eating, everything you'd ever want to know. And I really hope to let people fall in love with vegetables and fruits and all the plant foods because I think

that it's such an important part of our culture and our history. So in the second book, it's really condensing that into 52 easy tips, like easy habits that you could learn to be more of a plant-based eater. And then with my new recipes, which are very globally inspired and easy and delicious. Great. So in other words, like sort of taking all those arguments about why it might be too hard or I don't have time and all that kind of stuff and boiling it down

and making it understandable and accessible. Very easy and approachable. Just if you really want to get a kickstart for the plant-based lifestyle. Cool. And so when the book comes out, are you going to be traveling around

doing speaking gigs and cooking demos and stuff like that? I sure am. Are you on the VegFest circuit this summer? I am not at that one. I'm in the Portland one in September. Portland one. Are you at the VegFest? No, I mean, I did the last two summers I went to tons of VegFest, but this summer, not so much. But I did. I went to Toronto, D.C.

I did one in New York City, The Seed. I don't know. I did a bunch. I did one in Texas this year, but I'm going to do a couple of them. Did you do the one, what's the town? Marshall. Marshall, yeah. Yeah, that was fun.

Cool. I think I'm going to that next year. It's really fun. But I've heard it's super cool. So for the listener out there, this is the town of Marshall, Texas, which is pretty remote, right? Yeah. It's a small little town. What part of Texas is it in?

I know that I flew into Shreveport. So I'm not really great with Texas geography. I just knew I rented a car in Shreveport and drove to Marshall. Right. All right. So Shreveport and drove to Marshall. Right. All right. So Shreveport would be the closest airport. And apparently, I mean, you know more because you've been there, but is it the mayor of the town who went plant-based, experienced a dramatic turnaround in his health and became this crazy evangelist for it? And it's sort of overtaken this entire town.

Like the whole town is super into it, right? That, right? Everybody who works there, everybody who lives there. And so they have this annual event where they invite all these amazing speakers to come and the whole town like celebrates it. And it's like a really big deal. I've heard it's super fun. It's great. I mean, the food is amazing. They have like a vegan chili cook-off. They have a marathon. I don't know if it's, I think it's a 5K actually. A 5K, yeah. And I mean, they do lots of events and then all the restaurants participate with, you know, like you can kind of do a walk around in the little city. It's just a cute little charming town. Somebody should make a documentary about the town. I mean, it's such a unique, amazing thing that it really has like captured the fascination of like the entire population of this town.

Exactly. And the speakers were great. I mean, these are some of the leading nutrition experts in plant-based nutrition were there. So it's definitely fun. And they're getting people from – it started out really small and now it's attracting people from all over the world. Every year it's getting bigger and bigger and bigger. Right. Cool. It's fun. There are all these great veg fests. So they're very inspiring all over, you know, you could travel to some of them. Well, there's one somewhere every week. Yeah. So, and when you have a book coming out, you kind of have to show up at as

many of those as you can. Exactly. So that should be fun. Yeah. All right. Well, good luck with the book. Thank you. And hopefully you come back on the show sometime. I would love that.

So thanks for coming by. Thank you for having me. All right, everybody. That's our show. I hope you dug it. Were you inspired by Sharon's plant-powered manifesto? Need more plants in your diet, in your life? Then maybe you'll dig my ultimate guide to plant-based nutrition.

You can find that at mindbodygreen.com. It's my online course, about three hours of streaming video content, an online forum, downloadable tools, everything you need to get more plants into your life and to do it right. If you're stuck in your life, you're not sure which way is up, you have things you want to achieve or express, but just are having difficulty finding a way to do that because

your life is so busy or I don't know, you're just feeling stuck. I feel like a lot of people are, and I certainly know what that's like. Well, I have a second online course. It's called The Art of Living with Purpose. It's also up at mindbodygreen.com. Both the courses you can find on their homepage. Just scroll to the bottom. And this is about two hours of streaming video content, tools, tips, downloadable tools, an online forum, everything you need to set and achieve a goal and to unlock and unleash your best, most authentic self. Very consistent with the theme of this podcast. Of course, go to richroll.com for all your plant power provisions, nutritional

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or cooking or I don't know, whatever it is you do, a slice of your daily life, let me know so I can give you some love on that and an extra shout out. And as always, follow me on Twitter and Instagram at Rich, it's at Rich Roll at both of those and Facebook, Rich Roll Fans. And now Snapchat. I am Rich Roll at Snapchat. That's going to be my new thing. Maybe. We'll see. Anyway, that's it. Until next week, let me leave you with this. It's summer. It's time to enjoy yourself and try to be present with it. I've been meditating like a madman lately. It has been a really good streak. I'm up to about a month now without missing a day, meditating 20 minutes every morning. It's taken me a long time to get some consistency and some momentum behind it, but I've really hit a groove with it lately, and it feels really great.

I can totally tell the difference in my daily experience, and I suggest that you might want to check it out as well. And to echo my Huffington Post piece, maybe try to let go of destinations and outcomes this week. Invest in the journey. Invest in the process of what you are doing instead of the outcome. Embrace the obstacles, the fear, and the resistance and push forward anyway. And then let me know where that leads you. Cool? All right, cool. See you next week. Peace. Plants.