The Rich Roll Podcast - Endurance Poet Tommy Rivs Rages On: Surviving Cancer, The Gift of Pain & The Healing Power of Gratitude

Episode Date: December 13, 2021

At any moment, your could life could turn upside down. When tragedy strikes, what do you do? How you navigate events beyond your control reveals character. And character is something today’s guest possesses in abundance. Faced with a rare form of deadly cancer, Tommy Rivers Puzey—affectionately revered across the world as ‘Tommy Rivs’—refused pity. Instead, he doubled down on gratitude. He chose to learn from his suffering, expand his capacity to love, and more than anything, see the pain he endured as a teacher. A poet of endurance and philosopher of the human spirit, Tommy is a highly credentialed elite marathoner and ultrarunner with many victories and accolades to his name. He’s also an anthropologist, linguist, doctorate of physical therapy, and massage therapist who has worked with some of the best endurance athletes in the world. But more than anything, he’s a man who is universally beloved for his kindness, generosity, and soulful grace. In the summer of 2020, Tommy fell gravely ill with an extremely rare and advanced form of lung cancer that very nearly killed him—and most likely would have killed anyone else. But Rivs isn’t just anyone. Rivs is Rivs. He survived. Today Tommy shares his potent story, beautiful perspective, and copious wisdom in a beautifully vulnerable and heart-centered conversation for the ages. Without mincing words, this is an extremely real conversation about what it’s like to approach death. It’s soulful, at times emotional, and overall, a celebration of the human spirit in all its boundlessness. It’s a reminder that life itself is an absolute miracle. And it’s a powerful testament that gratitude, positivity, service, community, and love—mostly love—are what life is all about. To read more click here. You can also watch it all go down on YouTube. And as always, the podcast streams wild and free on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Note: This conversation was recorded on October 13th, 2021, and thus prior to Tommy’s most recent and perhaps most courageous and astonishing endurance feat to date. A mere year from having to relearn how to even walk, Tommy completed the NYC marathon. It took him over nine agonizing hours—7 hours longer than his 2:18 PR—but that nine hours was globally celebrated all over the world, including a must-read profile in the New York Times entitled, Cancer Nearly Took His Life. But the New York Marathon Awaited. Tommy is an exemplary human. A quiet and introspective mentor to many, he’s someone I aspire to emulate, a man who comports himself with an admirable degree of dignity, grace, humility, and generosity of spirit. It’s an honor to help share his powerful and inspiring story. Peace + Plants, Rich

You know, I remember being very aware that it was serious, and anytime you have something that's going on with your respiratory system, you really quickly lose your ego. I mean, there's not much bartering, and you can't really tough your way through that. You know, you take away somebody's oxygen, and it's just a matter of minutes, and you're begging for something, anything to save you. You know, you become desperate. I guess the key is to not waste that suffering when it comes. See it as a gift, see it as an opportunity to open our eyes and to be able to really value a normal day, you know, just realizing how incredible that is. And the tragedy

is that we don't recognize it until after the fact, but you have the ability as a human being to positively or negatively affect the people around you based off of the way that you choose to interact, you know? And our purpose for being here is to serve each other, to try to make the life of another individual easier. There is no idealistic future, you know, where it's just going to all be right and we're just going to be happy. We're not a victim of it. It doesn't just happen to us. It's happening all the time and it's our ability to see it and recognize it. The Rich Roll Podcast.

Hey everybody, welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Tommy Rivers Pusey, or as he is known to his friends, to his family, and his many fans across the world, Tommy Rives. Tommy is a poet of endurance. He's a philosopher of the human spirit, as well as a highly credentialed elite marathoner and ultra runner with many victories and accolades to his name. He's also a man universally beloved for his kindness and for his generosity of spirit. Tommy is also an anthropologist, a linguist, a husband, a father of three girls, a doctorate, a physical therapy, and a massage therapist who has worked on some of the best endurance athletes in the world. As some of you may know, in the summer of 2020, Tommy fell gravely ill with an extremely rare

and advanced form of lung cancer that very nearly killed him and most likely would have killed almost anybody else. But Rives isn't just anyone, Rives is Rives. He did survive. And I'm delighted to say he's here today to share his perspective, to share his wisdom, his experience. And it's quite a moving experience and it's coming right up. But first, before we get into that, a few words from the sponsors that make this show impossible.

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challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem. A problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com, who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs. They've partnered with the best global behavioral health providers to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you.

they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery.com. Okay, Tommy Rivers Pusey. So, yeah, man, what can I possibly tell you about this one, this conversation to come? Well, I can tell you that it's nothing if not soulful. It's heavy. It's at times emotional.

But ultimately, it is this beautiful celebration of the human spirit in all its boundlessness. It's a reminder that life itself is an absolute miracle and a powerful testament that things like gratitude, like positivity, service, community, and love, mostly love, are what are most important. Rives is an exemplary human. He is a quiet and introspective mentor to many. He's an example to many, many more. Personally, he's a human I aspire to emulate who comports himself with just this admirable degree of dignity, of grace, of humility,

and this outpouring of generosity, this generosity of spirit. And it's just an honor to help share his story with all of you today, a story I think will prove impactful. Quick note before we get into it, this conversation was actually recorded a couple months ago on October 13th, and thus prior to Tommy's most recent and perhaps most courageous and astonishing endurance feat to date, a mere year from having to relearn how to even walk, Tommy just completed the New York City Marathon. seven hours longer than his 218 marathon PR, but that nine hours was globally celebrated the world over. It introduced this humble and extraordinary man to many new people across the world and included this wonderful must-read profile

in the New York Times that I will link up in the show notes that you gotta check out. Okay, let us tarry on no longer. This is me having a conversation with Tommy Rives. We're so delighted you're here. Everybody here is so happy to see you. And- Thanks, man.

I'm excited to talk to you, man. I mean, I guess the first thing is, is like, how are you, like, how do you feel today? Like, how are you doing? Sure you get you feel today? Like, how are you doing? Should you get that question constantly? Yeah, no, it's good. Gosh, I'm stoked to be here. I mean, just, yeah, just stoked

that I'm just still around, you know? Yeah. I mean, I really am. Like, it's a good question because it's a good reminder to me, you know, just to recenter myself and help me realize that, you know, that it's like, this is, couldn't be better than this, you know? There's no way that it can be any better. I mean, it's, yeah, I think about that a lot. And it's as good as I could possibly ever hope that life would be, you know?

And just being able to see that right now and recognize it. Yeah, I guess that's just kind of where I'm at. You seem like somebody who's always had a firm grip on gratitude. When I think about you, I think about grace and humility and somebody who's always more concerned with how other people are doing than yourself. But to be able to kind of hold onto that

or capture that sense of gratitude with everything that you've endured and continue to endure, I mean, that's really remarkable. Like, how do you account for that? Is it your natural disposition? Is it a practice? You must have your dark moments with all of this, of course. The last year and a half or so,

getting sick and everything. Yeah, yeah, there's definitely been some hard times, to say the least. A few. Yeah, I see it, I guess, as it goes back to just these basic, I guess these basic ideas that we learn in endurance athletics, you know, that you focus on what you can control, that you have a certain amount of energy,

you know, emotional energy, physical energy, mental energy, spiritual energy, it all comes from the same well, you know, and, you know, you can only control a certain amount of that. And I guess focusing and allocating those resources towards something that I actually have the ability to affect. And you can affect your work ethic and you can affect your attitude. Those are kind of the only things you can control. Yeah, exactly. And so I guess there's a sense of, I think about how often you waste energy by wishing things were a certain way when they aren't. And I guess gratitude just comes as a natural, I guess a natural response to just recognizing

that you do have control over certain things, you know? Yeah. And yeah, that's a- I know that at some point, I don't know whether you wrote it or your wife Steph wrote it, but she conveyed to you this idea when you were kind of in the thick of, you know,

going through what you've endured, this idea of applying what you learned through your lifestyle and your training to navigating like this next chapter, like this is what endurance sports is. It's about endurance for life, right? Like you just kind of mentioned that, the idea that, you know, you're out there testing yourself,

putting yourself in difficult situations, trying to, you know, figure out where the edge of that envelope is. And this is just a more macro version of that, like as a means of kind of reframing your relationship with the illness to help kind of give you or like buttress your kind of emotional approach to how you deal with it.

Yeah, yeah, definitely. I feel like, yeah, like everything that, I mean, I think that the reason that we're drawn to endurance athletics is because it serves as a, almost as a skill building experience so that we can then take what we learn, the skills and the strengths, and then apply it to actual real life. And we're constantly reminding ourselves day after after day after day, that we're in charge, that we're not just this miserable creature

that's just gonna stay in bed and just constantly seek comfort, that we can rise up above and kind of remind ourselves that we're capable of getting out of bed when the alarm goes off, before the sun comes up and putting in the work day after day after day. And then when you're faced with challenges

in personal life or daily life, it just becomes second nature. Those habits that you create, those habits that you create, those skills that you develop and those strengths. Gosh, and you know, I'd like to say that, you know, I was prepared for all of this and that there was some greater,

deeper meaning behind all of it, you know? But man, when you're in it, and I'm still in it, you're just trying to, just trying to keep your head above water. How could you possibly be prepared for it? I mean, it's the unimaginable thing. It's the thing that you could have never predicted.

And I think as far as endurance sports preparing you for other life challenges, certainly that's true. But when it's just you in the road or you in the trail, there's kind of a limited number of variables, right? And you do have control over how you comport yourself. You're focused on the breath. You're trying to get from A to B. And there is an experiential aspect to that,

but there's also a result oriented aspect. Like I'm trying to get to this destination or I'm working towards a certain goal and life's just messy, you know, compared to that, right? There's other people involved, there's personalities, there's expectations, it's infinitely more complicated. Right, yeah, it's, I mean, to be, you know, to be completely candid with all of it

it's all been just a blur you know honestly all of it and and and Steph my wife Steph

she's done she's helped me out in a way that well she's helped me out in so many ways and part of it is is that she's

she's been the one that shouldered all of the, the knowledge about all of this, you know. You know, she's been there with me from the very beginning, you know, as, as often as she was allowed to be there. And I think about, she balanced these two, these two simultaneous truths that might seem as though they're contradictory. And the one truth was she held onto all of the,

you know, the diagnostic, you know, the diagnostic, you know, prognosis type scientific medical information. She understood, you know, what the research said, what the data said, what the likelihood of, you know, outcome and survival and all of that was. At the same time, she held what would seem like an opposing truth, which was that it was possible to survive this. And she was able to communicate both of those to me in a way that she carried the weight of all of it, but was able to communicate to me, yes, this is serious,

but you're gonna get through it. You know, there's a process. There are some things that you're gonna have to do that we're gonna have to do to be able to get to the other side of this. But it's just simply a matter of checking these boxes and doing it. And then when you're done, you'll be over this, you'll survive this and you'll be whole,

you'll be well again. And I think that because of that, there's never been a time throughout this that I didn't actually believe that I would survive. So she was somewhat circumspect with you in terms of like the dire details of what you were facing. Yeah, she held all that. She didn't actually share much of that with me.

And I actually, I've done my best to try to not find out I've done my best to try to, to not find out those types of, um, I guess the statistics and things like that. Um, somebody that was just a passive observer of, of, um, you know, the things that she wrote and the things that were, um, made public knows more about the details of all of this than I think I even do. And a lot of what I've learned is just stuff that I've stumbled upon accidentally. And I'll start to read it, I'll start to see it. And I'll think, oh, gosh.

Because you were unconscious through the great majority of a lot of this. So it was Steph and Jacob who made this decision to be very transparent about everything that was going on. And because so many people love you, everybody was hanging on the edge of their seat, wanting to know the details and eager to learn how you were doing on a daily basis.

And they were like every single day, like I would log in and see how you were doing and they would have reports and prognoses and all the like. Meanwhile, you're, you know, you're the one who's enduring it, but you're not conscious to really have to deal with the, you know, the emotional, you know, pressure of what that entails. Sure. Yeah. I, yeah, I haven't read any of it. Yeah. I really haven't. Yeah. I mean, I've seen some of it and I've read enough to realize I don yeah, I haven't read any of it. Yeah. I really haven't. Yeah. I mean, I've seen some of it and I've read enough to realize I don't want to read this yet.

You know, and Steph is, the whole time she's asked, well, you know, I'll just have questions. I'm like, how do I get this scar? How do I get this scar, this scar, this scar, this scar? You know, where'd these scars come from? And she's like, well, do you want me to tell you? And I'm like, actually, no, I'd rather not know right now. And you have three daughters, right? Yeah, three girls.

I mean, they're old enough to go online and read this stuff, right? I mean, what is their awareness around? I mean, the oldest one, I guess she could be. She's way more into like bugs and frogs and stuff like that than getting online and reading about stuff. Keep it that way.

Yeah, exactly. You know, she's, I, I, uh, I don't think that, I think that if, um, well, I, one thing that I think that hopefully we've done right with all this is, is try to shield them from just the spectacle of it, you know, and not let it become something that their identity is reduced to, you know, at school or with, Flagstaff's a small town. And trying to, you know, help them understand like the seriousness of the situation,

but not have it become a, it's just not a spectacle, you know? And a lot of it is still to be determined, you know? This is a, I've gotta be, you know, grateful for each day that I have to be here, but at the same time, recognizing that this is still an ongoing thing. Yeah, so you're in remission right now, but there's this looming threat

that it could come back at any time. Right, yeah. But if you get through a certain period of time, like a year or so, then that risk reduces significantly. Yeah, for sure. It definitely reduces it. It's a particular type typically comes back, you know, and until there's been a bone marrow transplant

and it's kind of this tricky holding pattern where you're not given permission to land, but you're running out of fuel, you know? So are you waiting on that right now? Are you waiting on a- So it's tricky. There are so few cases of this particular type of cancer that there's not a ton known about it,

but typically it comes back until, unless there's been a bone marrow transplant and you have to be in remission in order to have a bone marrow transplant. And when I first went into remission, I think it was last January, this January, I weighed about 95 pounds and my lungs were so scarred up. I think it was about 20% lung function.

And one of my oncologists, she said, she sat down and had a conversation with Steph and I and said, we can't treat you anymore. We're not gonna continue. We can't do any more chemo. And we also can't give you a bone marrow transplant because you won't survive it. You know, you have to be able to,

you have to have certain, I guess, physical markers to be able to even be a candidate for it, just because they're not gonna give you something that they know is just a death sentence. And you know, the chemo necessary to destroy all of your bone marrow so that then you can receive the transplant. That's so toxic that that in and of itself,

a lot of times can be fatal. And so they said, all right, this is something that we can't do right now because this will for sure 100% kill you. And so what we gotta do is basically you don't have cancer right now. You're in remission right now. That was the greatest risk at the time. A lot of this is just a process of looking at what is the greatest possible risk and trying to eliminate that, you know, one step at a time. And so the cancer was no longer the risk

and the greatest risk was, you know, lack of lung function and technically starvation. My body was in a state of, it's called cancer cachexia, where it's muscle wasting and your body's unable to absorb enough nutrients to be able to put on weight, even though it's being pumped through your stomach. And so you're in this state that's completely basically starved,

you're starving to death. Your body's just cannibalizing itself. Exactly, yeah. And so that was the greatest risk at the time. And so they said, okay, let's just wait and see. And if and when this comes back, we'll set up a plan, we'll go through, set up a treatment plan that would consist of more rounds of chemo and to get me back into remission again. And then, you know, to be able to destroy my bone marrow and then, you know, set me up to be able to have a transplant and then, and at that time, hopefully my lungs were stronger and my weight was up to where I'd be able to actually survive it.

So. And so right now the goal I would imagine is to just try to be as healthy as you can so that you'll be able, if and when that occurs, you can withstand what gets thrown at you. Yeah, exactly. And are your lungs currently at 20% still? I don't know what they're at. Is that improving at all?

Yeah, it's definitely improved. It improves slowly though. Lungs don't regenerate like a liver would. And so there's a lot of scar tissue, you know, at like a really cellular level, at the level where the gas exchange takes place. And so it's difficult to get enough oxygen in and then it's difficult to get enough CO2 back out.

And I can feel it, you know, I can sense kind of where I'm at just by, you know, you become really in tune with it. And it's like when you're running at elevation or you're swimming and doing hypoxic breathing, you can feel, you're like, okay, I got five more seconds before the lights go out. But coming down from flag to here to sea level, can you feel the difference?

Oh, absolutely, yeah. No, it feels great. Yeah, yeah, part of what I was so stoked about to come here was like, I'll be able to actually breathe for a couple of days, you know? Yeah. Yeah. So you breathe in LA air, so it's pretty clear out today.

No, it's good, yeah. Oxygen's a great thing, you know? Yeah. So certainly a lot of people listening or watching are familiar with the story, but there's gonna be a significant percentage of people who perhaps you're new to them. So can we walk through kind of what happened?

Yeah, sure, yeah. As well as I can remember. Yeah, we'll walk it up to the, until you're in this induced coma. Right. I mean, essentially, as I understand it, you were coming off an injury that you had sustained trying to qualify for Olympic trials

where you put your foot in a pothole, right? Was that at Boston? Which marathon was that? Let me think, when was that? Houston. Houston, that's Let me think, when was that? Houston. Houston, that's right, Houston, right? And you were like on pace to run 216 at the time or something like that?

I think so, yeah, we were on 216 pace. Tore your meniscus, you're out, you're injured. And as you start to kind of repair yourself and wrap your head around, perhaps beginning to train again, you go out to the Grand Canyon. So why don't we just pick it up there? Yeah, let's see, that was probably in,

okay, Houston was in January and yeah, it was a torn meniscus. Summer of 2020. Well, the marathon was some months prior to that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, January of 2020. And then, so I was out for a few months. I tore my meniscus and I also tore my, the short head of my biceps more, so my hamstring. And that I think was what really was holding me back.

And so that takes a long time, you know, to heal from that stuff. And I was in a funk. I mean, it was a hard, it was a really hard time. And, uh, it's just as the pandemic was starting. And, um, so this kind of collective sense of, um, discontent, you know, it was, it was a strange time and yeah. And I was just trying to try to put my head back together. I mean, that was something that I'd been working for really the greater part of my adult life.

And in my head, it was like, okay, this is probably the last chance I have to get there. I mean, not that you can't do it when you're 40, but in my head, my window was- You were 36 at the time. 36, yeah. So I was running out of time, it seemed. And my thought was like, okay, I'll do this,

running Olympic trials. That'll be just kind of a lifelong goal that I've had. And then after that, I can now get serious about running in the mountains, doing trails and ultras and stuff like that. And so I was down in the Canyon. I'd been there a couple of times, you know, and it really is just a place to have places, places special to me. And, um, it was, uh, it's always just been a chance to go down and just kind of reconnect with myself and with

just that space. And it's always been a place that rather than going there to hurt, it's been a place that I go to not hurt, if that makes sense. And so I wanted to see, kind of just test my durability, see how I was doing. And so I went down there with a friend, um, Derek Lytle, um, and he's, uh, he's a, an accomplished, um, ultra runner, um, videographer, photographer, uh, and he's, he's tough. I mean, I think a few years before that, he was attempting the FKT, fastest known time on the Arizona trail from Utah down there. Self-supported, so he's carrying all of his stuff

and he got in a bad situation, got caught in rain like three days in a row. So I drove out and met him and brought him a Subway Sub and a Coke and sat there and he moped for a little bit and then I drove out and met him and brought him a Subway Sub and a Coke, you know, and sat there and he moped for a little bit. And then, you know, I drove him in and helped him DNF basically. And so, and, you know, I'd spent some time doing some work with him before. And he's a good dude, somebody that you want to have your back when you're in a bad situation, you know? So our plan was just to run across the canyon and back.

And it was in June, which is really hot, you know, down in the canyon. So we were gonna go down Bright Angel Trail across and then up North Kaibab and then- Rim to rim. Yeah, yeah. The inverted mountain. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, and you know, it's so hot that time of year, the only way to really do it is through the middle of the night. So we left at sunset and started our way down. And I kinda had a lingering headache for a couple of days and prior to that, and I'd been in the Canyon, oh, maybe three days before that. And I figured I just wasn't hydrated well enough in that.

You know, I didn't feel great about it, but I thought, well, this is fine. I've got a long time I can focus on hydration and nutrition on the way down and it'll be all right. Well, you left out the part about being in the canyon. I don't know if it was the day before or a couple of days before where you were down in there and you encountered a woman at the base

who was having problems and you gave her all your food and your hydration. Well, yeah. And then you had to get out of there without any of that. Not knowing that you're harboring this illness the whole time. Yeah, that was a weird thing is that I think that was a, I think it was a Wednesday actually,

that I was down there by myself and I met a lady that was with some friends and she, gosh, she was in a bad, bad situation. And it's incredible, you know, because the pandemic was going on, there weren't rangers down there, there weren't people down there. And there's this sense of, um, there's this false sense of security that we have.

I feel, you know, in, in the U S in a lot of situations that, that somebody will always bail you out. You know, that if something goes wrong, well, you've got insurance, somebody will always make it right. You know? And man, in some of these places, um, man, dead is dead, you know? And there's nobody that's gonna come and bail you out. There's not a mule train that's gonna pick you up and take you back. And, you know, they were out of water

and arguing with me about the GPS that, you know, Phantom Ranch was supposed to be a half mile away according to the GPS. And, you know, I had just been there and I was on my way back and, you know, I had to tell her it's like, well, it's actually like three miles. And, you know, I had just been there and I was on my way back and, you know, I had to tell her it's like, well, it's actually like three miles. And, you know, they argued with me like,

well, but it says on the GPS that it's a quarter mile. I'm like, that's fine if it says that. Look, I've been here a million times. Yeah, I promise you it's three miles and there's no water between here and there. And it was, oh gosh. I mean, down there at the bottom, it gets like, it's not an exaggeration to,

you know know 120 or 130 degrees in the summer and just because it it reflects off the rock walls and it's just it's just so hot and um she was shaky and her face was purple and um and I'm talking to her and trying to explain how to get there and and she she passed out like she lost consciousness and trying to hold consciousness and trying to hold her there trying to figure out where i can set her on these rocks so that i can do cpr if i need to but the rocks are so jagged that it's like okay if i if i can press on her chest i'm for sure gonna break her back because there's no everything is just so rugged right there um anyway her

friends come around the corner and it takes a lot of persuading you know for them to just Anyway, our friends come around the corner and it takes a lot of persuading, you know, for them to just finally believe me that it's actually, you know, a few more miles down the trail. And anyway, I got out of there and they were, I don't know, actually, I don't know what ended up happening to them. But so, you know, I got pretty dehydrated on my way back out and figured that's what it was. So a couple of days later, I'm in there and have this headache and I'm thinking that's the same, that it's related to that, just overdoing it a few days before. So we get down to the bottom of the canyon,

we're at Phantom Ranch and we fill up and eating and drinking and we continue on and we get to, there's a place called Cottonwood. It's the next place to fill up the water bottles. And we keep going from there. And then I finally tell Derek, I was like, something doesn't feel right.

I can't cool down. I could tell my heart rate was way too high for where we were. I was like, I don't know if I can do this. i don't know if this is a good idea to do this and you know he was really cool about it he's like yeah that's that's smart and and he you know he's well enough um has enough experience in that kind of thing to know that if you don't have a great feeling about something you should probably listen to it in a situation like that um but then you don't want to let your friend down, you know? And, um, so we flipped around and went back to Phantom Ranch and was laying there and, um, just staring up at the

stars and it was midnight or right around, you know, between, between midnight and one in the morning. And, um, and I couldn't get my heart rate down and I couldn't get my breathing under control and I couldn't, I couldn't cool my body down. And, and then I finally cooled down, but then I couldn't warm back up. And that's never a good sign. You know, if you can't, um, regulate your body's temperature, that's, that's never good. And I remember thinking that was it. Like that was where I was gonna die. I was like, I'm gonna die on a picnic table in Phantom Ranch because I didn't hydrate properly.

And I remember thinking that was just- You were chalking it all up to hydration. I thought that's what it was, yeah. Just cause everything, you assess different things. It's like, okay, have I eaten enough? Have I drink enough? Are my electrolytes okay? And if it's not water or food or electrolytes or oxygen,

it's like, well, what could it possibly be? And it's not that complicated typically, and you troubleshoot and try to figure out, okay, where am I deficient? And just didn't make any sense. And so reluctantly, you know, we just start trudging our way back out. And it took, it usually takes about two hours

to get back out. And it took like 12, I think. And it was bad. I mean, by the time I got up to the top, my breathing was so shallow. I was really just wheezing and got back to his truck and I just blacked out. Like as soon as we got back to the truck

and he drove back to flag and he was cool through all of it. It was just like, oh, this happens. He just overdid it. And I knew I'd probably get shit for it later that it was like, it couldn't hack it. Were you having respiratory distress though? Were you coughing up blood and stuff like that? A little bit, yeah.

But that also is not that uncommon. If you start to cough a lot, it's like, okay, is that blood coming from my lungs or is that blood coming from just my throat? If you cough too much, that can just happen sometimes. And so there was a little bit of that. And then in the days after that, I got home and I just assumed I had COVID.

I mean, all my symptoms just seemed like, it was still early on, not a lot was known. And this dry, nonproductive cough and chills and night sweats and- Of course it's COVID. Right. We're in the middle of a pandemic. We're having this respiratory thing.

How could it not be COVID? Yeah, and that's what I thought. And it was irregular, like it was unlike anything that you'd kind of experienced before. So everybody would have assumed that. Yeah, it was a different kind of cough, you know? And it really, I mean, it was so bad

that I cough and cough and cough, and then, and you're so irritated that then there's a lot of blood, you know? You're coughing up a lot of blood. And then you aspirate that blood. And I remember in the evenings when I would fall asleep, it was more like I would lose consciousness rather than like actually falling asleep.

You'd cough and cough and cough until you start to see stars. And then you start to choke on that. And then you just wake up and there's blood all over your pillow. And it's like, oh dang, that wasn't good. And you know, it was a situation that was delicate too, because I went in and tried to get tested a few times.

Well, I went in and got tested a couple of times and it came back negative. And I remember arguing with the lady. I was like, how, how is it negative? Like how, you know, you did your test wrong. Cause like- Yeah. And it's summer 2020. So there was a lot of, I mean, these tests were not great.

Right. And it also was as strange as it sounds, it was political too. And physicians were afraid to treat, you know, certain ways because if you acknowledge something, then you were taking a political stance. And it just became messy. And I'm trying to, in my head, trying to figure out,

okay, what's the best way that I can receive treatment? And also how can I not take up resources? How can I not take up a hospital bed that there's a shortage already, specifically in Flagstaff. There was a shortage. Yeah, you were very resistant about going to the hospital. Yeah, yeah.

And I thought it was because, okay, if this is COVID, well, then I can just treat this at home. You know, like that's what you're supposed to do is self-isolate. And you have, I mean, you remember there were, it's like, okay, for the first five days and then the next five days and the next five days.

And, you know, there was this graph that, that, um, you know, we kind of knew how it was supposed to respond and, um, you feel better and then you feel worse and then you feel better and then you're, then you're good. And, and strangely, this was following a really similar arc. And anyway, so I figured that if I had a nice home and I had a place where I could isolate from my family, I had food, I had water, I had air conditioning, I had everything I needed. And then there were people, hundreds of people

on the Navajo Res and the Hopi res that don't have that, don't have running water, don't have plumbing, don't have climate control in their houses, don't have a separate apartment that they can sequester themselves. It just, it seemed so unfair to go to the hospital and take a bed. And so I thought, and maybe there was some hubris in this, but I thought, I studied,

I've dabbled in the healthcare profession for quite a few years. I feel like I understand how to triage. Yeah, well, you have a doctorate in physical therapy. You're also one of the fittest people on the planet. Like you're just an absolute beast, like a specimen. If anybody's gonna have the constitution to kind of get through this, you would be that guy.

So on some level, it makes sense. You're also not one to, you're always thinking about everyone else. So like your mind immediately goes to the Navajo Nation when you're in a desperate need of attention yourself. But the smart piece of this is in retrospect, looking back, if it turns out you don't have COVID and then you go to the ER

and you're surrounded by people with COVID in a very compromised situation, I mean, that could be cataclysmic. Right, and that was the thinking. It was like, okay, if this isn't COVID, it had turned into, again, this is self-diagnosis, but it felt like bacterial pneumonia at that point. And based off of the stuff I was coughing up

and the symptoms. And so my thought process was, well, I just need the medication to be able to get through this. And I need an antibiotic. I need some specific medication to be able to treat it. And if this isn't COVID, and if I go to the hospital, I will 100% get COVID. And if I get COVID with bacterial pneumonia,

you know, the prognosis is not great for something like that. And so I was really stubborn, you know, and luckily Steph was more stubborn and she was able to, I guess, speak some sense into me. And eventually- Well, she discovered you lying on the floor, passed out in a pool of blood is what happened, right?

And it's like enough is enough. You're going to the hospital. Yeah, I think the way that she did it finally was that she came home and put a pulse oximeter on my finger and showed me my oxygen saturation. And it was bad. I think maybe 72, which is not good. And so I was like, okay, really reluctantly. I stopped arguing with her about it. And in my defense, typically when your CO2 is that high

and your oxygen is that low, it causes you to become really delirious and really belligerent actually. It does. And so looking back, I'd like to think that some of that stubbornness was just because I was in an altered state of consciousness. So you get into the hospital,

but then the next ordeal is trying to figure out, you know, what the heck is going on here. Like they couldn't diagnose this for quite a long period of time. I mean, it went from, maybe it is COVID, maybe it's a fungal infection, maybe it's pneumonia, maybe it's the bubonic plague, like that was considered at some point.

And you're a guy who's traveled all over the world. Like you've been in all these crazy places. Like it's not farfetched that you could have contracted some kind of parasite or something along the way. Sure, yeah, that was a, we had some really lengthy, I remember having lengthy conversations with the infectious disease specialists. And he'd asked me these questions

and he was really adamant about it being the plague though. And that makes sense. I mean, that happens sometimes in Northern Arizona, the Rock Chucks and the Prairie Dogs can get it in their lungs. Right, you get it from rodents. Yeah, exactly. And it has to be, it's similar to how COVID is spread is that the particles from their chest

or respiratory particles, essentially, if you breathe them in, then you can contract it. And so the questioning was like, okay, have you, in the last month, have you had contact, if you had contact with a prairie dog or a rock chuck? I don't think so. And then I remember thinking, I was like, oh no, I did chase one in the Grand Canyon.

I followed it, you know, just looking at it and watched it go into its hole. And I remember looking into the hole and I remember thinking, I was like, it clicked. I was like, oh, that's it. Or couldn't a dead rodent get into the water supply where you're refilling your bottles down in the canyon? Maybe, I think that's pretty,

it's pretty, well, I like to think that it's pretty clean down there, you know, that it's filtered pretty well. But, you know, I guess that was a possibility. The way that he explained it is it had to be breathed in, you know? And so I remember thinking, oh, that was it. That was the rock chuck that I saw. And that was the one that did it to me. And I told him, I was like, yeah, I did. I saw one. I actually took a picture of it, you know? And then he asked, okay, well, if it wasn't that, did you potentially step on a rock chuck or a prairie dog? I was like, I'm pretty sure I didn't. He said, well, did anybody that you've run with

in the last month potentially step on a rock chuck or a prairie dog and you breathed in, you know, whatever was squeezed out of its lungs. I was like, I don't think so. And he said, you need to, you need to find out. And so I was like, gosh, this is like, you know, contact tracing to the next level. Contact anybody that may have, may have stepped on a prairie dog. In the middle of the night in the Grand Canyon when you can't see anything. I mean, anything's possible. Yeah, so we eventually ruled that out and it wasn't the plague.

And then I remember they started talking about a couple of other different diagnoses and lymphoma was one that they brought up. And I really just kind of laughed at that. It was like, that's like, how, why? How would I have lymphoma? And then I just assumed it was just, I still thought it was COVID

or something that had to be related to COVID that just maybe wasn't detectable at the time and that the testing just hadn't gotten that sensitive enough. And then I think they, I got to a point, things started to get really blurry at that point. Got to a point where they said they were going to need to put me on a ventilator because I couldn't keep my oxygen level high enough. And I remember just talking to Steph and leaving messages for the girls, you know, that I had to go to sleep for a couple of days and that I'd be back soon.

And, you know, just not amused by all of it, but just really curious, just kind of like, I wonder what actually is going on. And it'll be interesting when I wake up to find out what actually had happened, you know? Did the prospect of going on the ventilator scare you a little bit? Because I just remember that was the period of time

when if you did have COVID and you're still thinking you might have COVID, you go on that ventilator, a lot of people aren't coming off that ventilator. Yeah, and I think I, I don't think I knew enough about it to be that freaked out because in my head I was like, I'm not gonna die of COVID. Like it's people with preexisting conditions that die of this.

It's people that have, or are at an advanced age and have comorbidities. And I remember being very aware that it was serious. And anytime you have something that's going on with your respiratory system, you really quickly lose your ego. I mean, there's not much bartering and you can't really tough your way through that. You take away somebody's oxygen and it's just a matter of minutes and you're begging for somebody, something, anything to, to save you. I mean, that's why it's like being waterboarded, you know? And, and there's a reason why, gosh, that that's so effective because there's this, there's this fear that, that comes over you when, um, everything protective within your body is telling you you're gonna die.

Like you've got seconds, you know, unless you change something and you know, you become desperate and whatever it is, you know, whatever it is that needs to be done to be able to make you stop feeling that, you're willing to do it that you're willing to, you're willing to do it. You're willing to concede. And, um, yeah. And yeah, that was kind of, it's kind of where things started to just go, um, blurry for me because, um, after that, it was,

And after that, it was, that was in July. I think it was probably November before I- Like your next memory. Yeah, before I finally- Were you in and out of consciousness or you were, you just don't have recollection of that? I do. That's where things get really, really difficult to decipher. What it feels like is, I mean, I've been told now that it's amnesia and retrograde amnesia and not having enough oxygen for so many weeks and months that there's irreparable brain damage and things like that. And what it felt like was that all of these files that I had over the coma, I wasn't here, but I was still, I was somewhere, you know?

And what I experienced was, you know, time is interesting. Time can distort. Time can fall back on itself. Time can be, you know, stretched. Time can distort, time can fall back on itself. Time can be, you know, stretched. And I experienced lifetimes and during those weeks and months. And then the really tricky thing is that then when I started to have the realization that I was back here, wherever here is, all of those experiences that I had when I was asleep, I guess, Steph and I call it when I was in between,

you know, wherever I was. It's as though they got planted back in where all of those corrupted files had been and just kind of mixed together. And so the interesting thing is that they didn't, they didn't get filed as though they were dreams. They got filed as though they were memories. And so everything from the last decade

has been mixed with all of these other experiences. So you still have trouble sort of parsing those things and making sense of what was real and what transpired in the liminal space? Yeah, exactly. So what was that experience? What, like, where do you think you went? Like, paint that picture for me

of being in that in-between. Oh gosh. That's hard. There was exhaustion, I think, is the overwhelming feeling that I felt initially. And it was that I was trying so hard to stay here. Um, I could sense that something was pulling me. Um, and it was painful. It was uncomfortable. Um, I was trying really, really hard to not leave whatever this was. Um, whether we think of it as a, like a cage, you know, um, trying to stay within that cage and, um, trying to be held by my body still. And, and then I remember there was a, there was a time where I, I was just so tired, just so, so tired. And I remember thinking, I don't, I don't want to do this anymore. I don't think I

can do this anymore. And, and by then I, I'd lost any recollection that I, that I had a life here. I didn't remember that I had kids. I didn't remember, um, you know, that I lived in Flagstaff, any of it. And there was a point where, the weird thing is that Steph was always with me the entire time. I thought we were on this just grand adventure, that we were exploring the cosmos together. and adventure, you know, that we were exploring the cosmos together.

And I got to a point where, it's gonna be hard. I stopped, I made the conscious decision that I was gonna be done, that I didn't wanna fight whatever was pulling me away anymore, that I didn't have the strength to fight it anymore. And there was a sense of peace

and just comfort in wherever it was that I was going. And I saw it and it was inviting and beautiful and safe. And and Steph nudged me and she said, you've got to go back. And I said, I, I don't, I don't want to go back. Like, look at, look at this place. Um, I said, come with me, just, just come with me. Like, don't you want to be here too? And she, uh, she grabbed my face and, and turned my head. And, um, I said, I don't, I don't want to go back. And she said, um, she said, And she said, you don't have a choice. And she pointed and I could see in the distance my girls and I'd forgotten that they even existed.

And she said, you don't have a choice. You've got those three little girls that you've got to go home to. And I remember seeing it and being so angry just because I felt like, I don't know how I'm gonna do this. I don't have the strength to go back. I'm so, I'm so done. You know, I'm so ready to just,

just stop fighting, whatever this is. And I remember just closing my eyes and breathing and just kind of just accepting it. It was like, okay, I guess I don't have a choice. I guess I have to come back. And then the pull, all of that fighting that I had done to stay where I had been initially, it was the same amount of effort to come back to that space. And I remember when I finally did come back and I got here, wherever that is, I was so angry.

I was angry at my physicians. I was angry at my physicians. I was angry at Steph. I was angry at everybody. I was angry at everybody that had prayed me back, you know, because it felt as though I couldn't even choose to die the way I wanted, you know, because the pull of, that pull was so strong, you know, whatever it was that pulled me back when I had chosen to, I hadn't even chosen where I just didn't know how I could continue doing it. I just felt like

I didn't have the strength to continue, um, the ability to continue that amount of discomfort and that amount of effort. And I got back and, um, woke up, I guess. It's not that simple, but, and I was in this shell of a body and I was like, what did you guys do to my lungs? What'd you do to my body? What'd you do to, you know, I weighed 95 pounds and- How long, do you know how long you had been

under at that point? This was coming out of the coma? Yeah. So this was coming out of the coma. So this was like how many weeks or months? It was, gosh, I don't even know. Steph said that there were times that in August, in September, that I was responsive to certain things. It was way later than that before I actually was able to piece together

what was going on, before I understood that I was in the ICU, that I had lymphoma, that I was undergoing chemo, all of those things. That was probably November before I actually realized that. But I woke up with, I had pressure ulcers on my heels

and on my shoulder and on my sacrum. I've got a scar the size of my fist on my tailbone where just from having to be in the same position. The bed sores. Yeah, the bed sores, they just happen if you can't be shifted. But this idea, like the mysteries of consciousness when you're in a comatose state, right, is fascinating. And you have this, basically near death experience

that you recollect with incredible clarity. The idea that you had awareness in that liminal space is fascinating and coming out of that and now with some time and distance between that experience and where you're at now, like what do you make of that like spiritually? You know, like that's a trip.

Right, yeah. Right, yeah. I talked to Steph like initially right as it was happening and there was, at the time it was very clear and there were more answers than questions. But as I look back now, there's now more questions than answers with all of that. And what I did say to Steph, and I remember thinking was that, and of course this was my experience and I don't know how, who knows how much of it is. I don't see it in any way as though like, oh, I discovered the truth.

You know, I had this vision, I had this experience and this is the experience that you have. I don't feel that way at all. It was the experience that I had. But I remember we continue, we don't, it's not just darkness, it doesn't just end um but it's um and it's right here it's all happening right here but it's it's different um i remember realizing that okay is if if i if I become unmoored from this body, I can't go back.

And I will still be here, right here. All of this will still be happening. But I won't have the ability to communicate with everybody who's still in that space. with everybody who's still in that space. And I remember thinking how agonizing that would be to see my girls and that they would still be right here, but I wouldn't be able to communicate to them. I wouldn't be able to let them know. But you would have awareness of the other dimension.

But also complete awareness of all of their fear and all of their questions and all of their grief and all of their heartache and, and being able to see it and feel all of it, but not be able to reach across and say, but I'm still right here, just so you know, I'm still right here. Wow. And that was, the fear of that was a huge motivator. I remember also thinking and feeling and seeing that heaven and hell, they exist, but they exist to everybody simultaneously.

And they exist in proportion to the amount of love that we gave and the amount of love that we were able to receive. And then the hell part is the recollection and the understanding of all of the love that we didn't give and didn't receive when we could have. And that heaven and hell exists simultaneously based off of the different relationships that we had while we had the opportunity to express those things. And that there could be a sense of heaven,

such a big term, but a sense of peace with the way that we conducted ourselves with a certain individual and the complete opposite with an awareness of the way that we conducted ourselves with somebody else. And that it is all, that it's all connected, that it all continues. And that,

gosh, just the urgency of now. And that what we continue to feel beyond this is directly linked with the way that we interact with people. Comfort ourselves. Exactly, yeah. And that's so powerful. That's such a powerful lesson. It's also encouraging to me,

like it makes me feel good and safe in some regard. It gives me a sense of agency and kind of a directive about how to live. But it's comforting to hear that. And I suspect you being where you're at right now, which is obviously in a better place than you were, but also somewhat precarious, there's some comfort for you

in having that awareness and understanding. Yeah, there is in some sense, but the part of what, part of the fear that I had as I experienced that was that I remember feeling as though whatever it is beyond here, beyond this, it's not bad. It's not scary, but it's not here. And it's lovely, whatever it is when it happens, but I'm not ready yet. I don't want to go yet. Um, because my, because I, I like it here, you know, and it, um, this is the after

party that, you know, There's no after party. This is as good as it gets. This is everything right now. And whatever is beyond this, it doesn't necessarily, it's not necessarily bad, but it's my girls aren't there. My family's not there.

My friends aren't there. My life is not there. It's here. And gosh, I want to stay here as long as I can and just wring everything out of this experience first. How does that color, how you kind of navigate your life day to day now? Like, has it changed?

Obviously you're more self-aware of your mortality. I suspect you're more present with each given moment and understanding the preciousness of, I mean, you have young girls, it's like, it's the best. But to be able to have that awareness and enjoy it while it's happening rather than in retrospect is certainly. It's certainly a gift. That's, I mean, that right there, like you nailed it.

That's been the biggest takeaway is that there is not this idealistic future somewhere down the line where we're gonna find happiness. You know, where happiness exists there and we're going to be happy, you know, that we're gonna get there and everything's gonna be right. And we're gonna have this sense of just contentment

and rest and ease. It's like, that doesn't exist. It's right now. It's all happening this very moment. It's the choice that you make about how to experience your life moment to moment. The heaven and hell. Heaven and hell are all happening all the time to all of us.

The entire range of human emotions, experiences, all of that is happening to us all the time. And whether or not we experience that joy, that happiness is based on our ability to see it as it's happening rather than in retrospect, rather than looking back and saying, oh, okay, I was happy. I didn't realize it, but I was.

Things were really good back then. Those were the good old days. We don't ever realize that until after the fact. And our ability to have joy, to have happiness, to be happy, it's is 100% based on our capacity to see it as it's happening. I mean, this right here, there's nothing. I remember thinking that this morning,

it was cold this morning, it was windy this morning. There's construction going on, it's loud. There's a bunch of cars driving way too fast, but it was also, the sun was out. I could hear the ocean. I can breathe without carrying oxygen with me. I can eat through my mouth. I don't have a tube anymore in my stomach.

I can take a shower by myself. I don't have to bring oxygen into there. My heart rate doesn't go to 190 just because the hot water hits my body. I can use the toilet by myself. I don't have to wear a diaper. I don't have bed sores right now. I don't have to piss out of a catheter. All of those things, the absence of all of those things is remarkable. I mean, it's incredible. It's a miracle. And the ability to see that right now,

this situation, there's nothing that can make it any better. I mean, I have contact with my family. I saw him just a couple of days ago. I'll see him tomorrow. I have my girls. I have a house. I have a car. we have climate control, we have, I mean, all of this stuff. Like there's nothing that can make it any better. Nothing.

I mean, really, I sincerely believe that. Like there's nothing that could improve this situation. But here's the thing. I feel like you're somebody who already understood that. Like you've conducted your life in accordance with those values all along. I suspect maybe you're in a graduate degree program with that, but it's not like you were living your life antithetically to those principles prior to your illness. Like you seem like a guy who understood that before. Maybe, I mean, maybe in theory, you know, I mean,

but I don't know, I'm cynical. I'm grumpy. I'm, you know, a lot of what comes out, you know, whether I say it or whether I write it or, you know, however it's expressed is the conversation that I'm having with myself, you know, trying to help myself realign, trying to help myself focus on what's good, you know,

facing a challenge, being honest about what that challenge consists of, figuring out what I can control, focusing on that, and then spinning a positive narrative around it. But gosh, it's always been the conversation that I, that's going on in my head, you know, that, that inner dialogue, I guess, um, to try to, to try to face whatever it is that I'm going through. Um, that I'm going through, I guess in an optimistic sense,

but that doesn't mean it's ever been easy. Josh, I don't know. I mean, there's, and this whole situation, this has been the things that have been the most challenging are things that you wouldn't necessarily think about. I wouldn't have thought about. Like what? Waking up addicted to pain meds. I mean, gosh, that's been.

What did they have you on? Just like a battery of opioids, morphine. Yeah, fentanyl morphine. And that stuff is lovely. I mean, I don't think I've ever grieved the loss of something as much as that. Yeah, that's heavy. Yeah, it becomes everything.

That's how you get through. That's how you get through those experiences. It's like, how do people endure that? It's like, well, you endure it because you have a drip of morphine right into your... That stuff's 50 times more potent than heroin, you know? And coming off of that, that in combination with, you know, you're on everything

and you're on it because you need to be on it. I mean, I don't know how you could endure what you go through if you weren't heavily medicated. But then when the time comes to, a lot of the times it seems as though you're medicated because they don't actually think you're gonna make it through. So it's like, okay,

let's make this as comfortable as possible. It's just pain management. As you transition out. And then, well, then you don't die. And then it's like, oh damn, okay, we've got to figure out how to get your body to where it can function without all of this. And that was hard.

I mean, that was, that's still hard. I mean, that still is, I mean, to say that, I don't think that pull ever goes away. And you just have to jump it from that to something else. It'll slowly, slowly fade into the background, but yeah, it never quite goes away. It's always lurking in the background. Well, and it's been something that it's not new to me.

I mean, it's always, I think addiction is so ubiquitous that I have a hard time even referring to people as addicts. I think that people are humans and that we're driven by these gods and their dopamine and serotonin and oxytocin and there's lots of different things that we do to be able to have the right combination of those and some of them are culturally and socially acceptable

and some aren't and some are more, you know, potentially self-destructive than others. We all on some level find our way to the drug that works for us. And that could be shopping or television, or it can be, you know, a morphine drip, whatever it is. And every combination in between. But I think we all gravitate to that thing

that kind of solves that problem in our brain that we feel like we're missing. Right, yeah. The interesting thing, like for me, as I've gone into, I guess, just most recently with this, just experiencing it, to me, it felt as though, you know, there's this, it felt as though it was a misconception

when we look at people and think, why would so-and-so, you know, they have a beautiful family, they have a great job, they have self or how, how destructive it can be. As though there's something malicious in it, you know? Right. That shit has nothing to do with it. Exactly. And, and my, my, my view of that, I guess most recently with this is that, that you actually, the reason that, that somebody goes to use something like that is because they love their life, because they love their family, because they love the version of themselves when they're on that, and they hate the version of themselves when they're not on it, because their friends actually don't like the version of them when they're not on it, because society doesn't respond well to that version, that it actually, in some situations,

when you're completely dependent upon it, it does make you a better person. It does make you more capable of functioning within whatever that life that you've created is. And gosh, people think about how expensive those types of things are, and how inconvenient those things are, but it's like, gosh, rehab and sobriety

and coming off of those things, gosh, that's expensive. And there's never a convenient time for that. No. And you know, it will absolutely, you know, just rock everything that you have going on. I mean, I spent three weeks in a bed, just writhing and just shaking. And it felt like my brain, my spinal cord,

my entire nervous system was having an allergic reaction. I mean, it's like if your brain could itch, you know, and just such a strong pull that you know that in it, all you have to take is one of these little, beautiful little white pills. And within 10 minutes it's gone. Yeah. You can end it, you can stop it.

You will go to the ends of the earth. Right. To solve that equation. Yeah, yeah. It's just- It's heavy, man. Yeah, no, but it's good though. I mean, it's good to experience that and to know,

I guess to just, to realize that there's not a, there's just such this misconception that we have that there's malicious intent, you know, that it's, you know, if somebody struggles with something like that, it's because they're deviant, you know, they're malevolent. It's because they just, yeah. They're on a search for wholeness and that comes in various forms.

But when you find that drug and you latch onto it, it's really hard to let go. And you being somebody who's already innately very compassionate and empathetic towards other human beings, like it just deepens that reservoir of empathy and helps suspend judgment for those that struggle and are in pain and in that vicious cycle.

There you go. Yeah, it's hard. Well, we glossed over like the diagnosis. I mean, you have this rare lymphoma, but the actual diagnosis is primary pulmonary NKT cell. Right? And this is like a crazy rare thing. Like it's surprising that they even were able to diagnose you because so few people, how many cases are there? There's almost no cases. Yeah, I don't know.

Yeah, stay out of that part of it. That's the part that gets a little bit tricky. I start to, you know, I start to hear, I start to read about it or research, or I hear kind of overhear stuff and it doesn't bolster my confidence. So I stay away from it. So in the hospital, five months?

Oh boy. Don't even know. July through January, July, February, March, July, August, September, October, seven months. Yeah, seven months or so. Steph wrote, she kind of went through the litany of all the procedures that you endured. Are you aware of these?

Cause I was thinking about recounting some of them, but if you're, if you don't wanna be. Yeah, I mean, on a surface level. You're aware. Yeah. You know what they did to you. Yeah, I mean, I think so. And they plucked and prodded at you.

I mean, basically we don't have to put too fine a point on this, but multiple surgeries, most of them while sedated, ventillary intubation, which we mentioned, open lung biopsy, ECMO placement in both your jugular and femoral vein, tracheotomy, PEG-GI feeding, two chest tubes for collapsed lungs and internal bleeds.

You suffered acute liver failure. You had deep vein thrombosis in your arm. You had a stage three sacral pressure ulcer and two different strains of fungal lung infections, as well as a septic blood infection. You suffered from severe ICU and steroid induced delirium. Many days you were unable to recognize stuff or even remember your own name.

You lost 70 pounds of muscle going from 170 down to 98, 95 pounds, something like that. You had to relearn how to talk, how to swallow, how to chew. You strained but succeeded to speak on a Passy Muir valve, which I don't know what that is, while still on ECMO and a ventilator, you had to relearn how to move your limbs,

beginning with your finger and your toes. This took weeks. I mean, this is insane. It goes on and on and on. Yeah. It's like, do you have memory of these phases and stuff like that? Yeah.

The surgeries, all the procedures I have, I've got big scars now. And, you know, I've learned about a lot of this just from, a lot of it happened when I was, I guess, in a coma. And so I woke up with all these incisions or just with tubes still, you know, connected. And some of it, the crazy part is that with all these incisions or just with tubes still connected.

And some of it, the crazy part is that some of these procedures I was sedated for, but I remember them as they were happening. And I remember, I've got this, well, I've got this scar here. Right, like, wow, right on your sternum. Yeah, right on my sternum. I forget this is audio. So a big scar. It's video too. Yeah, a big scar right where my sternum was.

And that was a pericardial window where they, I guess it was a way to go in and access my heart for some different procedures I had and then to do some work on, it's called your pericardium, which is this membrane. They had to drain fluid out of that sac, right? Yeah, to drain the fluid out of that. And then that basically was just kept open

because so that they could go in and keep working there. And then eventually there's, you can't stitch it because there's just too big of a hole. And so that was cauterized. And I remember that. I remember smelling it. And- You have to do a skin graft on that?

Or how did they even get it to cover up? Just burnt, just cauterized. And I remember smelling it and it reminded me of like branding cattle when I was younger. I was like, why does it smell like we're branding cattle? And then I realized that the smell was coming from me, from my chest and feeling it. And I remember thinking, guys, I can feel this,

this thing that we're doing, I'm still here. But not being able to communicate like, okay, can you get me something, you know, or can you put me out? Cause I, I may not be responsive, but I'm still here, you know, and, um, I was uncomfortable. I mean that, um, and then that's the other thing that with, um, you know, where everything is just so confusing, but that I was still experiencing lots of stuff. you know, where everything is just so confusing, but that I was still experiencing lots of stuff. I mean, some of it was just, just horrible, you know, and just, um, the most uncomfortable things you can imagine. And, you know, I, I've heard people say like these things that you go through when you're, you know, in the ICU, um, end of life, stuff like that, that there are these dehumanizing experiences, you know,

having, you know, a catheter, a rectal catheter, I mean, being fed through a tube, having a tube down your throat, a tube down your throat, a tube in your throat, through your nose, through your neck, all of these things. It's interesting that it actually, there's nothing more humanizing. Those are humanizing, the very most humanizing experiences.

Because it connects you with just the frailty of being human and the temporal nature of our short existence here on earth. And everybody will be, well, hopefully not, but if we live to an advanced stage, and if we don't go out with a bang, if we go out with a whimper instead, it looks like that, and everybody will be in that situation. And, um, you know, realizing that, you know, maybe somebody

says something and it comes across really gruff and it's not because they don't mean to say it in a kind way. It's because they know they've only got enough energy for three or four words and, um, they're only only gonna have the energy to get it out one time, you know? And I remember working with patients, geriatric patients that, I remember thinking like, wow, that's really interesting

how curt you become as you get older. And then realizing- Self preservation. Right, exactly. And then realizing- Self preservation. Right, exactly. And it's not based off of, you don't have the luxury of considering how something is gonna come out or how it's gonna be interpreted

because you just, you only have the energy to just say something one time. And it's just, man, this, just being able to be aware of that and see that and experience it. Yeah, I mean, the kind of silver lining in this is you had that palliative care experience without being a geriatric and you have this second shot

to basically apply what you learned and attempt to make your life more meaningful in the process. I mean, the people who work in palliative care, I mean, it's fascinating. They come, they're getting a firsthand experience with people at the end of their lives and their last words and their reflections on their lives.

And I find that to be so powerful and instructive. And yet you hear it and then you forget it immediately. Yeah, for sure. And you just go about your business. Right, exactly. But man, one thing I gotta say though is, oh man, nurses and the doctors, the physicians, man, they're,

I think about this situation and I guess some of the feedback I've gotten and some of the messages I've gotten and some of the messages I've received and stuff. And this, I don't know, this is not a story of heroic feats, you know? I mean, at least not by me. And when I think about it, it's like the nurses and the physicians that chose to take me, you know, when everything looked so bleak, I mean, really putting their reputations on the line to be able to do this and to be able to be willing

to take me when there was such a limit, like limited resources, limited bed space, limited manpower, all of that. It just, it's difficult to find the right words to express that kind of gratitude. And not just to the, you know, the team that accepted me and was willing to work with me, but also with just the outpouring of support, you know, and love from, gosh, from so many people. I don't know what your awareness is because you were where you were,

but the outpouring of love and the support online and the community that kind of congealed around supporting you was unbelievable, man. It was really a beautiful thing. And I'm sure you know that, but if you don't know that, you need to know that. Like people love you, man. And that's a reflection of the way

that you've lived your life. You know, and to the extent that, you know, your experience has created a referendum on how you wanna live and how you wanna be and improvements you can make. You need to understand that you have lived your life in such a way that, you know, people are going to the ends of the earth

to try to find ways to support you and your family. Yeah, it's, man, people are good. It's, all we hear is the negative. All we see is the scandals, the times that people mess up and just this obsession we have with finding fault and that it, it fosters this, this mindset as though humans are just these fallible, wretched, cynical creatures. And, and that's one, that's one aspect of humanity, but our ability to do good,

to impact the lives of people around us, to help make things better for other people around us, it's just, it's infinite, that capacity, that ability. I think about humanity. We talk about humanity all the time. Well, we did growing up at least in my home. My mom was an artist, my dad, his graduate degrees were in humanities and religion.

That's fascinating. I didn't know that, but I'm like, of course. But growing up, we studied the masters of the humanities. They were the artists, they were the writers. And that word became synonymous with like masters of the arts. They were great writers or painters or sculptors. And we think about Michelangelo or Bernini,

or we think about these individuals that had this ability to capture human emotion, human experience. And that's why we call it the humanities. Not because it's not synonymous with artists. It's that they have the ability to capture the essence of humanity, you know, not just have the ability to paint or just to be a sculptor, but to actually capture a feeling, this universal human experience. And there's this massive, I think about this massive spectrum of, of humanity. And on one end is the, is the weak, miserable, wretched aspects of humanity. But then on the

other aspect or on the other side of that spectrum is, is our potential for good, you know, and we are, we are masters at picking up the broken pieces and, um, recreating and repairing. And, um, we're masters of redemption. I mean, we really are. And we're also masters at deflecting the fact that we have that capacity. We put it on something else or someone else always. We look at these incredible achievements that humans have accomplished and our first reaction is, oh, it must be extraterrestrials. It must be something else that did this.

We couldn't have possibly achieved this. Exactly. Because if we recognize our capacity as human beings, then we also, well, if we recognize the achievements of a previous civilization or somebody else, and if we don't attribute it to divine intervention or some unseen force that actually accomplished it, then it condemns us as human beings. Then we have to acknowledge the fact that, well, we maybe aren't reaching our potential as human beings. And so we're so quick to give something else the credit,

which is great. I mean, there's obviously it's important to have humility and to recognize that. But to face that is to reckon with our innate power. And if we're living our life frivolously, we don't wanna look at that. Exactly, yeah. But when we realize,

frivolously. We don't want to look at that. Exactly. Yeah. But when we realize, you know, our life is ours to choose essentially. I mean, if there's something that we want to work to accomplish, there's work involved. There's personal responsibility that we have to take, and we have to actually do that, but it is within our capacity. It is within our ability. And gosh, to be able to see that potential that we have as human beings and to realize that that redemptive capacity that exists within each of us is a human characteristic, you know, to realize that not just the flawed, broken aspects of our humanity, but our potential and what we can do individually, but also what we can do collectively. And seeing that play out with this experience, the support that my family received from, continues to receive from so many.

I mean, I can't even begin to number them just because it's just immeasurable. And the contributions, the generosity, the support, the encouragement, all of that, seeing that and just realizing, remembering as I see that just the incredible capacity that we have for good. It reaffirms my optimism about humanity,

amidst all the chaos and the strife and the division and this breakdown in our ability to communicate and the lack of nuance in our discourse and our, you know, quick to judge, you know, kind of disposition and canceling people for this and that, like this idea of redemption, right? It's so important and this appreciation of nuance and this, you know, default to trying to find or trying to identify the best

in people or, you know, see the potential in our individual and collective humanity is something that I feel like we need to reconnect with and appreciate. I feel like it's evaporating, you know, right before our very eyes and we're all suffering with and appreciate. I feel like it's evaporating right before our very eyes and we're all suffering as a result. Yeah, yeah, it's so just everybody. I mean, there's not, that's what makes us human

is the fact that all of us have these secret boxes that are full of our fears, our grief, our insecurities, as well as our hopes and dreams and aspirations. Sure, and then sort of sitting right next to that is a culture that's biding its time, just waiting to judge you in accordance with your worst day. Right, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, we just...

But this idea of, I love this idea of artists as doctors of humanity, right? Here to kind of help us connect with what we all share. And I feel like you channel that sensibility in your writing. Like when you make these beautiful Instagram posts, they're really, you know, they're poems. They're musings philosophical on the human condition.

They're not about you. They're not even really about running. They're really about life and they're very broad. And sometimes they're very specific, but they always speak to something that we can all connect with and share about what it is to be in this meat suit and deal with the bullshit that we have to deal with

as human beings. Yeah. I mean, they're beautiful. I love reading your writing and stuff too. Like the two of you together, it's like, let's write a book together. It's incredible. Thank you, that means a lot.

It's always just been my journal really. And from the time I was a kid, we were encouraged to write every day. And my dad has had a journal that he writes in and has kept since the 1970s and it's like 17,000 pages long. And, um, you know, he writes it every month and then prints it out and sends it to each of us, you know? And, uh, so, and it's, it's basically that, you know, it's just his thoughts and the things that he reads and the things that he experiences. And, and so we've, you know,

we were always taught to, to do that, that that was something that you should do on a daily basis to sit down and write. And my, you know, my little daughter, I, my, my oldest of the three, um, you know, she's old enough to where she can do something like that. She can sit down and write. And, and that's something that I've, their allowance is based off of. It's like, well, if you write every day, you know, at the end of the month, you can add all this up. Oh, that's cool. And, um, just because it's a, it's a way to express, um, to identify what it is that you're feeling and to be able to put it down on paper. And it, it validates that experience for you, you know, and if there's other people that,

you know, that feel like it can be helpful to them as well, then it's, then you can do it in a way that's generic enough to where, um, and that's what that's always been. You know, I, even before social media, that's always just been something that I've done. And it's something I still do. I mean, I don't share a lot of it. But getting in the practice of writing, I think that there's this quote by Hemingway where he talks about writing one true thing. He sits down and he's just like, just write one true sentence, the truest sentence. And that's what it is a lot of days.

And it's not always this yearning where I have to sit down and write something. Otherwise, I'm not going to be able to contain my thoughts. It's a practice. I sit down and I make myself write one true thing. And sometimes I share that and sometimes I don't, most of the times I don't. But it's really helped me in the last several months as I've been trying to get, there are aspects of my memory that I don't think I'll ever get back, but I feel like I'm finally being able to get my mind back,

have the ability to think and be able to, I guess, process kind of just what's going on around me and internalize that and then be able to metabolize it, you know, through putting it down on paper. Yeah, it has a very like beat poet vibe to it, right? And it's cool, because I think, you know, we think of athletes being here

and then artists being over here. And it's rare when these two things come in one package and you see it kind of probably more in the ultra space because that's sort of a more kind of esoteric pursuit. I think is prone to, you know, kind of, you know, waxing poetic, I suppose. But I love it when athletes are kind of channeling that innate artistic sensibility that I think we all have.

When I think of you, I mean, I think about Ricky Gates, you know, being somebody like that, like, I don't know, do you guys know each other? I don't know. You don't, right? Like, I mean, you guys have a Vulcan mind meld. Definitely know who he is, but, no, he's really inspiring.

Yeah, and it's like notes from the edge, you know, like we're out here, we're explorers of a certain kind, and we're reporting back with, you know, what we're out here, we're explorers of a certain kind and we're reporting back with, you know, what we discover out there. And I think it's really cool. The other piece to this is this default to being service-minded. And I was reading or listening

to something your brother Jacob said, and he was talking about when you guys were in college in Hawaii and really immersing yourself in the indigenous Hawaiian culture and trying to understand the precepts and principles that kind of underpin their philosophy. The idea of Ohana and Aloha and Mana and all of that, but a core principle being this idea of ha,

like this predisposition towards giving and the idea that when you are in a giving spirit, that it is there that you find your greatest power. Yeah. So talk about that a little bit. Oh gosh. Yeah, we were out there for, we were out there together for a few years and that

was, that was an awesome time, um, on Oahu. And, um, we had a professor that was the Hawaiian studies professor. We both studied, um, you know, part of what we both studied was cultural anthropology. Um, it was part of, I guess what he ended up studying and then yeah so we had some classes that we were together and um yeah there was definitely uh there were components of of that belief system that just really made a lot of sense and and i think some of it had to do with our our upbringing but this notion that one of the strong ones was this relationship that we have with the natural world, with the earth.

And there's a belief within traditional Hawaiian belief that if you are a steward of the land, if you protect the earth and you care for the earth, that the earth has a moral obligation to care for you in return. And I wish I understood it better, but I feel there definitely is a connection and there's a sense of,

there's some type of reciprocal relationship that exists where, um, not just in that, well, that, that respiratory relationship that we have with the earth. I mean, that, that's, that's incredible to think about that, that, that, that we consume carbohydrates and we breathe in oxygen and we drink water and that the combination of those three things creates CO2 and energy. And then we breathe out that CO2 and the plants breathe in that CO2.

And they create carbohydrates and oxygen and breathe that back out. And I feel as though there's something else that exists that are somehow our connection with the natural world and moving through the natural world, whether it's walking or running or cycling or swimming or surfing, whatever it is, that the emotions that we store, absorb, from I've always absorbed people's emotions around me. And that gets heavy, that gets really heavy. And running has become, it was always an outlet. It was always a way to metabolize that emotion and somehow breathe it back into the natural world. And it felt as though there was something

within that natural world that I wasn't, it wasn't a toxin that I was emitting. It was almost as though it was something that was beneficial somehow. Right, the more that you grow and mature and metabolize all of this, like whatever you're aspirating out. Yeah, exactly.

Is providing sustenance to something. Yeah, yeah. And the reason that I feel that is because I can go out and I can spin my wheels and go through the motions in a densely populated city. And I don't feel that release. I don't feel as though it's metabolizing the same way as if I was in the mountains or in the canyon

or these hills around here. I mean, that's what I love about here is that you can be in such a densely populated area and then you just move, just right next door is this rugged wild mountain and you have the ability to exhale all of that, you know, that you've absorbed. I guess the things that we learned there when we were in school there. And just this understanding that there is a connection, that there's a reciprocal connection, not just between us in the natural world,

but between ourselves and other human beings. I feel like that's heightened in Hawaii. Yeah, for sure. Like there is a real like palpable sense. It's very experiential when you're there because there's a lot of light, but there's a lot of dark there. Like there's a polarity that exists for some reason.

Maybe it's on some meridian. I don't know what's going on there, but I mean, it's real as far as I can tell. But the trick is then to come back to the mainland where it's less pronounced and maintain that kind of reverence and respect and awareness. Yeah, yeah.

And the one thing that I, well, not the one thing, but one thing that I do love about being out there is that the currency out there is service to the people around you. Right, I mean, that's what I was driving at with this idea of ha. Right, exactly, yeah. I think about the word inspire.

You know, inspire means to breathe life into something. The same as that notion of ha. Conspireire to breathe life into something together with somebody else, you know? And just that sense that you have the ability as a human being to positively or negatively affect the people around you based off of the way that you choose to interact, you know?

And our purpose, if there's a purpose, our purpose for being here is to serve, is to serve each other, is to try to make the life of another individual easier, you know, to try to help them on their way, to try to somehow be of assistance. And there's this notion, this need for cooperation, coordination that we have as human beings.

It's existed for hundreds of thousands of years, but in the last, gosh, I don't know, the last couple of centuries, we've become more individualistic. We've become more isolated, you know, rather than working together with individuals, cooperating in a tribe setting. There's something uniquely American about that

because of the way we over prioritize and over index and kind of herald the idea of rugged individualism, which is really an illusion. Like nobody gets anywhere without cooperation and help. But for some reason we celebrate this idea of the self-made man and these sort of principles upon which our country was built, really look to that idea of individualism as something that stands above all these other, kind of ideas that I think we should be celebrating

probably a little bit more. And as a result, we're isolating ourselves from each other. We're not raising our children in a village and we don't know our neighbors and we consider it a weakness to ask for help. And all of these things I think are really denigrating the quality of our lives. Yeah, absolutely.

And we, rather than focusing on coordination and cooperation and receiving the reward that comes from that, which is this production and distribution of oxytocin. We use our consumption and accumulation to feed that same need. And we isolate ourselves and we get our validation through our devices. Or we only conspire and cooperate

in order to get to a place where we can consume more and separate ourselves from our brothers and sisters. I'm sure you have the same experience, but I mean, I was, I'm sure you had the same experience, but I mean, we originally met because we were both with James, Aaron Cowboy on the final day of his 50, 50, 50, and we got to run a few miles together. And that was super fun.

And you know, one of the things I remember about that experience was you being not just a cheerleader, but a guy who was, you were there to serve. Like you're running back and forth, you're making sure everybody's okay, you're making sure James is okay. And I mean, I was very aware of kind of, I was very conscious of like the intentionality

that you brought to that experience in that it was all about like making sure it was the best day ever for James, right? Yeah. And it was, and it was all about like making sure it was the best day ever for James, right? Yeah. And it was, and it was amazing. And I'll never forget that day. I went back to, on two occasions to, you know, participate in his latest crazy adventure,

the Conquer 101, that's what he's called. That's what he called it, right? And one of the things, I mean, set aside the, you know, the sheer athletic achievement, the thing that was most meaningful to me was seeing this whole town turn up to support this guy, like a small little town, not really a suburb, like it's far enough away from Salt Lake

that it's kind of its own place with its own community. And everybody showed up to support this guy. And all these people flew in from all over the place to support this guy. And it was the most kind of cooperative situation. And in some ways kind of a throwback to a different time because it's a place where kids ride their bikes down the street and everybody says hello to each other.

You know, it's a very leave it to beaver kind of town. Right? Absolutely. And I was like, wow, this is kind of nice. You know, like I don't see, I live in LA. I don't see this anywhere. Right? But it is that spirit of cooperation

and a sensibility around kind of giving of yourself for something greater than yourself. Yeah, that's been a- And I know you were out there, you went out there for, I think, I went out there on the last day and James was telling me that you had been out there, I think a couple of days prior.

Yeah, I got there in New Jersey. So I think the second half, maybe last like 25 or so. Oh, on the 50, yeah. I mean, you were there for a huge long stretch, but I mean, the latest thing you were out, you came out for a day. Yeah, if I was with my dad and my sister and we went out to see him and gosh, that's incredible.

I mean, it's not even words. What do you even say about it? Well, yeah, James is, gosh, his ability to, just exactly what we were talking about earlier, the potential that we have as human beings, to explore those outer ragged edges of that human capability and to do it in a way that just empowers other people to realize what it is

that we're actually capable of, to rewrite those rules. And the way that he is able to do it is through that cooperation, coordination, to see how, I mean, it is a equal distribution of effort by him and Sonny and his kids and the wingman. And he's the first person to make sure that everybody understands that this is a team thing.

Yeah, exactly. No, it's really- I mean, the wingmen are unbelievable. Yeah, they are. Gosh, yeah, that's a good crew. I mean, that's a solid group of people and you can't help but walk away from that and be just inspired by, you know what I mean?

That in the same way that I mentioned that it breathes life in you. It helps you realize what you're capable of as a human. And not just what James has done, but just the way that we can rally around any cause, whatever it is. Right. And even, you know, not just the outward things that are said, but just observing it, just watching it, just seeing how it plays out and doing it so transparently and openly like that to where everybody sees, you know, this is, there's no curtain that separates behind the scenes and the front stage.

Everybody is just right out there and you see all of it and you realize how much it takes to be able to pull something like that off. And that makes it even more inspiring, just that you can create something like that, a community, a tribe, a family, whatever it is. And you have a goal and then you figure out a plan and then you just chip away at it until you get it done. It's pretty incredible.

In your case, I mean, so much of who you are, so much of your identity is that of the athlete, right? And now obviously you have to recalibrate that whole thing. Like how has that been for you and how do you think about that? Oh man, it doesn't, it doesn't, in my head, it doesn't change. I've never been, you know, I had an opportunity.

I've had the opportunity to be around a lot of really, really great athletes living in Flagstaff and working in, being a body mechanic basically, working on bodies, studying physical therapy, studying massage, studying manual therapy. You have the opportunity to be around and put your hands on lots of really incredible athletes.

And it's really good because it helps you realize how unremarkable you are. And you go to Flagstaff, you learn really quick that you're a tiny fish in an enormous pond. There's Ryan Hall, there's Sarah Hall, there's Scott Falwell. Exactly, yeah. I mean, there are, even on the buildups

where I was in the very best shape of my life, there are, I don't know, three dozen males and females that could kick my ass on any distance, any event. kick my ass on any distance, you know, any event. And I, you know, I was never gonna be the greatest. I was never gonna be a great, great athlete. You know, I mean, I like to do everything that I could to wring out my own potential, but I, you know, I was very, very aware that I was never gonna be,

I'm built to be a distance runner, you know? Sure, but at the same time, very aware that I was never gonna be, I'm built to be a distance runner. Sure, but at the same time, there's that, there's the kind of performance outcomes of being an athlete, but more importantly, or more meaningfully is just the experience of being an athlete. Like I get to go out and run these trails and I can feel a certain way and run these distances

and connect with my breath and all of that, that gives us sustenance, right? Is suddenly not available to you. Well, I guess what I was getting at is that it is still, it's just different. It's just the thing that drew me to it was always, being able to be a part of that community, being able to feel a part of that community, being able to, um, feel a part of, you know, there's this cohesion that takes place, uh, when you're

out suffering alongside people and training towards something and working collectively towards something. And, um, you know, my body is, is wrecked. It likely, it likely won't ever, body is, is wrecked. It likely, it likely won't ever, um, be able to recover fully. Um, but I can still get out. I can still, I can still move. What can you do? Like, what does it look like? Well, it's a lot of walking right now. Um, especially in Flagstaff at that elevation. Uh, and I'll get out and just slowly move. And just that process of moving through the natural world, it still provides the same, I would have never loved the, I mean, it's fun to compete, but I really have always done it as a way of just being able to work through my own issues.

It's this meditative reverent practice of going out and I guess seeking this transcendental experience. And you become so dependent upon it, you have to make a lifestyle out of it eventually. Otherwise it gets flagged as something that's an addiction, it's self-destructive. And just shroud all of this and tell everybody it's a career. If you can do that, an addiction, you know, it's self-destructive. And just shroud all of this and tell everybody it's a career.

If you can do that, I mean, you know, I mean, that's, but that's what it is. I mean, that really is. And otherwise it becomes, you know, something that people say you should, you know, you should probably reconsider. I remember talking to my dad a couple of years ago. My dad's like my best friend.

Like we talk on the phone, like almost every day. And he, uh, we were in, I was out on the same road, same road that I run back and forth day after day after day. And I think it was like the third run of the day, just because I'd had to break it up and I was getting ready for a marathon. And I'd been living in Flagstaff for, I don't know, maybe six years and pursuing that full time. And he said, wow, you're running again? You're really into this running thing, aren't you? And I was like, yes, dad, yep. It's something that I am pursuing a little bit seriously. And I was like, dad, that'd be like if I said to you like, oh, you're, I, it's something that I am pursuing a little bit, you know, seriously. And I was like,

dad, that'd be like, if I said to you like, Oh, you're still reading books. You're really into that reading thing, aren't you? Yeah. Anyway, writing in your journal. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So, um, yeah, it, it, it's changed. I mean, it's different, it's slower, but gosh, if, if we got to the end of this life and if there was some kind of sit down judgment, reconciliation, and, and the only thing that you had to show for it was how fast you could run. I mean, what a, what a waste of a life that would be, you know? I mean, really like, it's like, it's like, well, what did you do? It's like, well, did you see how fast I could run? Did you see how fast I could run a marathon? I mean, that is a pretty pathetic existence, you know? I mean, there's so much, that is, there's nothing more self-serving than that,

you know? And so, yeah, I don't know. Who knows? I don't know if I'll ever run that fast again, but. I mean, you were out, you've shared on Instagram, you were out in the canyon with your daughter. Yeah. So you're getting out there.

Yeah, so I walk. I get out, yeah, I get out and move. And that's as good as it gets, you know, being able to be in the canyon with Harper. She's 11. I mean, she's incredible. I mean, we have like, she says things that, the way that she's connected to the natural world is,

it's unlike anything I've ever experienced before. We were walking and she said, she said, you know, dad, it sounds like the way that, you know, when you lick a rock. And I said, what? She goes, it's the sound of like licking a rock, but not like a river rock and not a piece of limestone, like a piece of sandstone. Like, you know that sound that it makes when you lick a piece of sandstone? And I was like, I know exactly what you're talking about. You know, that kind of-

There's the poet. Exactly. That's amazing. No, I was just like, wow, that's so, that is so, that's so in tune, you know? Right. Having experiences like that with her, you know, we're walking- And did she like shame, somebody had like a boom box or something like that

down in the canyon and she was like not into it. Just a Bluetooth speaker, yeah. She just shook her head and she just, she goes, noise pollution. I was like, yeah. And it wasn't even to me, it was just to herself and I just heard it and I was like, man, that's awesome. I mean, that's a really proud moment.

Then she said something to me and it reminded me of something that maybe I had said to her at one point, but she, she said it back to me as though it was an independent thought. You know, I could tell it was like something that was a part of her, but you know, we were having a, I was having a hard time coming back out, you know, we're hiking back out and gosh, I swear the canyon got wasty for the last year and a half. But I'm coming back out and she's like, hey, you know what? It's okay. Like, it's okay. Sometimes the memory is a lot better than when we're actually living the experience.

And I was like, gosh, this kid, you know? Children are our teachers, Tommy. Nothing better than that, you know? That's unbelievable. I mean, it's just like to be able to have that experience. And the fact that I can do that now, be able to walk down there with her and be able to walk on the trails just around her home

and sit outside and play with the ducks and the chickens and just all of that. It's like, there's nothing better than that. And I have that now. I remember a year ago, a year and a half ago, bartering with whoever it is that's in charge of all of this. If I can just let me get through this year, just give me one more year.

If I can have a year, then I'll gladly go. And I've made it. It's been a year. And gosh, and then you get selfish. You're like, I'll gladly go. And I've made it, it's been a year. And gosh, and then you get selfish. You're like, okay, five more, 20 more, 50 more. Right. You know?

Because we're humans, man. Yeah, exactly. But I mean, it doesn't get any better than this. It really doesn't. And I mean, the tragedy is that we don't see it until afterwards, you know? I mean, I've been thinking about people say like, and they lived happily ever after.

Like the operative verb there is lived, you know? They were alive and that's why they were able to, that's why it was happily ever after. Then they died and it becomes a fucking tragedy, you know? But like, gosh, life is incredible. I mean, it just, as bad as it seems, as hard as it seems, it's just such a gift to be able to do it. And we talk about how tragic it is when somebody, when something happens, you know, somebody dies, somebody gets sick, there's an accident, there's a disaster. And as though that's out of the norm. And in reality, the fact that we're alive, it's just a miracle.

I mean, the fact that we're here, that we're... It becomes hard to talk about this stuff because you can't express it in ways that haven't been expressed in just such cliche terms. But the fact that we're living and breathing and talking and all of this with everything that's going on. On a space rock. Yeah, exactly. That emits oxygen that we can breathe and we give it back CO2 as we're hurtling through space. I mean, it's all insane, right? It's spinning 16,000 miles an hour.

Can't really grok that whole thing. I mean, of course, obviously we intellectually understand like that life is a miracle, but we can't fully embody that or appreciate that on a moment to moment basis. And, you know, in my experience, people who have experienced certain types of trauma or life altering, you know, situations like yourself,

come out of those experiences with obviously this renewed appreciation, but there's kind of a timeline like that dissipates over time. Like it's hard to hold onto that. And so here you are a year later, like I feel like you really are holding onto that. You really are in the moment.

Like when we first sat down and you're like, this is great, man, I'm so happy. Like I can feel it, like that's real. And I think that's an incredible gift for all of us to like hear you express that, for you to fully embody that and a powerful reminder of just how precious all of this is and how fleeting and how delicate and fragile. Yeah.

And I just wanna, like I want a piece of that. Like, I wanna feel that on a soul level in the way that you feel it. The lucky part is that as good as things are, they'll get bad again for all of us. Right. You know, I guess the key is to not waste that suffering when it comes, like see it as a gift, see it as an opportunity to open our eyes and to be able to really, to value, you know, what it is that we have.

It's normal, a normal day, you know, just realizing how incredible that is. just realizing how incredible that is. And the tragedy is that we don't recognize it until after the fact, but everything is, it's so cyclical, you know? Everything that is good, anytime we're having a good time, a comfortable time, life is good, you know? We can be 100% guaranteed

that it's gonna get bad again, you know? And as bad as it is, you can be 100% guaranteed that it's gonna get good again, you know? And as bad as it is, you can be 100% guaranteed that it's gonna get good again, you know? And it's just being able to see all of it all at once and recognize what is good and be able to really value it as it's happening. Because, you know, like I was saying,

there is no idealistic future, you know, where it's just gonna, it's gonna all be right. And we're just gonna be happy, you know? Happiness isn't something, we're not a victim of it. It doesn't just happen to us, you know? It's happening all the time. And it's our ability to see it and recognize it. And it's just, it's just incredible, really.

I had so many other things I wanted to talk to you about, but I can't imagine a better way to end it than with that. That was so beautifully put. Thanks, man. You're a beautiful man. Oh, jeez, thanks, man. I really appreciate you coming here today. I really do.

It's, you know, it's moving for me just to be in your presence after having kind of closely followed everything that's occurred in your life. And I just have so much reverence and respect for you, yes, as an athlete, but really just as a human being, like the way that you comport yourself, the way that you interact with the world,

the way that you are as a family man, as a husband and as a father, I think it's really exemplary. And I just have a huge amount of respect for you. And I wish you well, man, I'm here for you, for whatever you need, man. And I'm just delighted that we got to spend a couple hours together. Gosh, well, man. I'm here for you for whatever you need, man. And I'm just delighted that we got to spend a couple hours together. Gosh, thanks, Rich.

So thank you. Thank you so much. I did wanna point out before we close this up, a couple of things. The first is you have this GoFundMe. It's still up there, right? People can still contribute to that. You don't even know. I don't know. Yeah, I think you can.

I mean, you guys have raised a bunch of money, but medical bills are expensive. So I'm gonna link up that in the show notes for people who wanna learn a little bit more about that. And also you're a long time ambassador of craft, right? And this is really cool. Like they came up with this, I mean, they have this team ribs collection, right?

But inspired by your experience, they've decided to provide the US a discount on their gear until the US gets universal healthcare. You know about this, right? Oh, yeah. Yeah, so they're giving 10.7% off, which represents the amount Swedish citizens pay of their income to cover healthcare.

Yeah. Which I thought was really cool and clever. I think that was a recent announcement, right? Yeah, just a couple days ago. Yeah, they're an incredible company. It's been, us Swedes just do everything better, you know? I mean, it's a Swedish company, you know, been around since, I think since the 1970s. They started with creating ski gear, you know, cross-country skiing,

and then got into cycling and getting into running. And just having the chance to work with them. And they've been, you know having the chance to work with them and, and they've been, you know, I started to work with them and we started to, you know, collaborate on creating a shoe and creating some gear. And it was right after I started with them that I got sick and, um, man, I, they had, as far as our contract was concerned, they had every right to terminate the contract. Because my job was to basically be an athlete and to collaborate on research and development

of these different products that we were creating. And I wasn't able to do any of that at the time and they not just stayed with me, but like doubled down and supported me and my family and have gone on to create this entire line of clothing. And man, it just, it just speaks, just volumes as to the kind of company that they are. That's cool. And yeah, they've been, it's been unbelievable.

They've been great. Yeah, that support. And this is just, I don't think it was necessarily in response to me, but it was just more in response to just the idea that, they wanted to provide that to- Well, it definitely was in response to you. I mean, you catalyze that thing.

I mean, it's cool. I think that it's cool that they're doing it. Also, I should point out for all you iFit people, you've got like a ton of stuff on the iFit platform, right? Like you've gone all over the world, like running all over the place. So there's all kinds of content on that platform. Yeah. I had an opportunity to do that for a lot of years before, before I got sick and we've got, yeah, there's a lot of stuff out there. Yeah. It's been

a really cool experience to be able to do that. And yeah, and that was something that kind of, kind of took off when I was, when I was asleep too, you know, that just the support that came together from iFit and from that community has been, that's been just mind blowing, honestly. Yeah, it's been really appreciated. Yeah, cool, man. Well, come back and share with me some more.

All right, cool. Will you do that? Yeah. Cool. Absolutely. Everybody should definitely check out Tommy on Instagram as well, at Tommy underscore Rivs and anything else before we sign off here? No, just, man, I just thank you to everybody

for all of this, you know? I wish there was, wish I had better words and bigger words, but just to express. It was beautiful, man. All love, brother, all love. Thank you, Rich. All right, talk again soon.

Peace. That's it for today thank you for listening i truly hope you enjoyed the conversation to learn more about today's guest including links and resources related to everything discussed today visit the episode page at richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive, as well as podcast merch, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change in the Plant Power Way, as well as the Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and leave a review and or comment. Supporting the sponsors who support the show is also important and appreciated. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with

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Namaste. Thank you.