The Rich Roll Podcast - Fiona Oakes & Keegan Kuhn Are Running For Good

Episode Date: October 11, 2018

Today's episode features a conversation conducted before a live audience at the Laemmle Royal Theatre in Los Angles with acclaimed British ultra-runner Fiona Oakes and friend, multiple podcast guest and filmmaker Keegan Kuhn — one-half of the team behind both Cowspiracy & What The Health. Vegan since she was 6 years old, Fiona is an extraordinary athlete and exemplary human hailing from the UK who holds four world records for marathon running. Perhaps best known as the world’s fastest woman to run a marathon on all seven continents and the North Pole, in 2013 Fiona won both the Antarctic Ice Marathon and the North Pole Marathon. But what makes her accomplishments all the more amazing is that at age 14 she was told she would never walk properly, let alone run, due to an illness that required more than 17 radical knee surgeries that culminated in the removal of her entire right knee cap. This week marks the release of this dynamic duo's latest creative collaboration, a new documentary entitled Running For Good. Visually arresting, the film follows Fiona as she attempts to set a new world record and complete Marathon des Sables – a 250km race through the Sahara routinely dubbed the toughest footrace on Earth. Fiona runs not for podiums or glory, but instead to promote a compassionate way of living and break the stereotype that veganism holds you back from anything — all while tending to her true passion, operating Tower Hill Stables, where she cares for more than 450 rescued animals everyday. A departure from Keegan’s recent provocative fare, Running For Good is a more contained yet cinematically stunning portrait of an undeniably unique, compelling, funny, self-deprecating, inspiring and essentially anonymous figure deserving of far more notice, attention and acclaim than she has historically received. Executive produced by actor James Cromwell, I had the honor of providing some voice over to the film, as well as co-hosting the recent LA premiere of the film several weeks ago, where we recorded this conversation — which includes clips from the movie itself — post-screening before a live audience. Fiona is someone I respect and admire deeply and have wanted to get on the show for a very long time. My admiration for Keegan and his work is well documented by his many appearances on this show. So I’m delighted to bring them together for you today. In addition, we are setting a new audio production high water mark in this episode. Jason Camiolo (who composed the film's beautiful score) did a masterful job weaving segments of the film into today's exchange to elevate the dynamic quality of your listening experience. For the visually inclined you're not going to want to miss the video version of the podcast, which includes clips from the movie itself. Watch it here: http://bit.ly/runningforgoodpod Enjoy! Rich

I'm nothing special. I truly believe it. I'm looking at the vastness of the problem I'm trying to address. Unnecessary suffering is just appalling. Any sort of pain of any sort of creature is just something you just wouldn't want to inflict. Injustice drives me, and that's injustice in the extreme towards our fellow creatures. The pivotal core of my life is 450 plus rescued animals that I care for. I really wasn't aware of how humble Fiona was.

I knew that she was humble because everything I'd seen and read but I didn't realize that it was to this like heartfelt level. This is very genuine. This is who this person is. I found that really refreshing. I think there's a lot of huge egos in sports. And then to have somebody who strives to be the best simply to create a platform to talk about compassionate living, it's like, that's a documentary I want to see. So I really made this movie for myself for that.

And again, just that humbleness, that lack of ego because it's selfless, was I think one of the most shocking things about making it. That's Fiona Oakes and Keegan Kuhn. And this is The Rich Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey, everybody. How you guys doing? What's happening? How are you? My name is Rich Roll. I am your host. This is my podcast. Welcome. Super excited to be here today. Hope you guys are too, because today I'm conversing before a live audience with my good friend, multiple podcast guest, and filmmaker

Keegan Coon. He's the man behind the camera and behind the editing bay of a couple movies I suspect you may have seen, little documentaries called Cowspiracy and What the Health. And Keegan is joined by acclaimed British ultra runner Fiona Oakes. Fiona is a truly extraordinary athlete and human who holds four world records for marathon running. Vegan since she was six years old, Fiona is perhaps best known as the world's fastest woman to run a marathon on all seven continents and the North Pole, which is unbelievable. In 2013, she won both the Antarctic Ice Marathon and the North Pole Marathon. But what makes Fiona's accomplishments all the more amazing and extraordinary is that at age 14, she contracted this very strange illness and was told

that she would never walk properly, let alone run for the rest of her life. The illness required more than 17 radical knee surgeries and ultimately led to having her entire right kneecap removed. So as hard as it is to run a marathon on the North Pole, imagine doing it without a kneecap. I just, I can't even wrap my head around that. Anyway, together, this dynamic duo made a great new documentary. It's called Running for Good. And the movie follows Fiona in her attempt to not only set a new world record,

but also to complete a race called Marathon de Sable, which is a 250 kilometer race through the Sahara Desert that is routinely dubbed the toughest foot race on earth. And she does all this while also simultaneously running this animal sanctuary, which is really her true passion, where she tends to over 450 rescued animals. It's such a great movie and definitely a creative departure from Keegan's last two films. This is not a controversial expose. It's really a more contained and cinematically stunning portrait of this very unique, compelling, inspirational, funny, unique, compelling, inspirational, funny, she's super funny,

and essentially anonymous figure who is deserving of far more notice and attention and acclaim than I think she has historically received. I had the honor of providing some voiceover to the movie, as well as co-hosting the recent LA premiere of the film several weeks ago, which is where we recorded this conversation post-screening before a live audience. Before we launch into it, I want to let people know right up front that Running for Good will be available to watch globally on October 11th on Vimeo. And what's really cool is that Keegan is making the film available to stream for free, for free people, for the first four days of the release. So between October 11 and 14, during this limited window only, all you got to do is go to runningforgoodfilm.com, runningforgoodfilm.com, and type in the code FREE, all caps, and you can watch it gratis.

We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because, unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem, a problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you

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I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. Okay, so this episode is super special, and it's special for a couple reasons. First of all, Fiona is somebody that I respect and admire deeply and have wanted to get on this show for a very long time. So I'm delighted that

today marks that day. Second, we decided to kind of up our creative game with the show here. Jason Camiolo, you guys know Jason, right? He's my trusted audio engineer for the last couple of years. He's also an accomplished musician, and he's the guy who composed the score for the movie, Running for Good. And we hashed this idea to layer into today's live conversation some music and some dialogue excerpts from the movie itself to not only create a little bit more context for the discussion about a movie you probably haven't seen yet, but also to kind of foment or create this heightened dynamic listening experience. It's something we also apply

to the YouTube version of the podcast, which likewise layers in actual scenes from the documentary. In any event, Jason did a phenomenal job cutting this together, as did Blake Curtis and Margo Lubin, who handled the video and editing side of this equation. And I'm just pumped to share it with you guys. I think you're going to really enjoy it. Final note, and again, Running For Good will be available globally on Vimeo starting October 11th.

And if you catch it between October 11 and October 14, you can stream it totally free by going to runningforgoodfilm.com and using the code free at checkout. All right, with that, I give you Fiona Oakes and Keegan Coon live from the Lemley Royal Theater in Los Angeles. Slightly before my teenage years, I developed a problem with my knee. I was in and out of hospital, 17 operations. I eventually lost my kneecap. I was told I wouldn't walk again properly, let alone be able to do sporting activities,

especially things like running. I was going to be registered disabled at one point because it looked so hopeless. That was an incredibly challenging time. I definitely know what it's like to suffer myself, so I can relate to it with other beings, whether they be human or not. I know how far I can push myself and I'm prepared to take it for myself but not for anything else. I am trying to do something positive with my running. I'm not just out eyeing up a trophy or thinking I need to get my time down.

I'm doing this with a reason and it isn't any of those things. In the Sahara Desert, one of the most extreme races in the world takes place, Marathon de Sable, the Marathon of Sand. Traversing over 250 kilometers across sand dunes, mountain ranges, dry lakes, and abandoned villages of North Africa, Marathon de Sable is roughly the equivalent of six marathons back-to-back. Competitors are required to be self-sufficient, carrying all food and necessary equipment over the course of six days to reach the finish line. Available water is carefully rationed at checkpoints throughout the days, and nights are spent in open-air tent bivouacs along the route.

With daytime temperatures reaching 50 degrees Celsius, the threat to human health is very real. In previous years, runners have died in their attempt to complete this grueling event. It has been called the toughest foot race on earth. Ladies and gentlemen, Fiona Oaks. Thank you. And the filmmaker, Keegan Coon. Fiona, how do you feel? A bit overwhelmed, a bit surreal, really, yeah.

Well, you strike me as a very sort of unassuming, self-deprecating personality who appreciates your privacy and your anonymity. So I'm wondering what the experience was like for you to see your story writ large on such a gigantic screen with all of these people here. Well, it's the first time I've seen it, as you know. It's kind of emotional, a bit painful sometimes. The desert bits are always just funny because I just know how ridiculous that whole concept of that race is. Yeah, because sometimes, like,

did I do that, or is it a dream? But I obviously did do it because it's up there, or unless it's photoshopped, but, you know, yeah, it's just a complete whirlwind. I've done nothing special. I'm nothing special. I've literally... Where does this self-deprecating nature come from?

I don't know. Actually, I truly believe it. I'm looking at the vastness of the problem I'm trying to address, and I realise that I'm very insignificant, and it would be wrong for me to not stand by and do all that I can. But it never seems to be enough because, as I say, there's just so much more I want to do, so much more that needs doing. I haven't got time to sit back and congratulate myself because I've literally got nothing to congratulate myself over. These are little battles. The

war is not won. And that's how I feel. These are little battles, the war is not won. And that's how I feel. Fiona, she's so pure. And she's just doing everything from her heart. She's not defined by a physical condition. She doesn't define herself by her extraordinary running. She does this completely selflessly. For her it's her own passionate belief about veganism

and about her animal sanctuary. Part of what makes her so incredible is that she's just so humble. Her life and her work with the animals, with her sanctuary, it drives her, it gives her a focus for her running. I'm interested in hearing a little bit more, learning a little bit more about how you think about the connection between running and the advocacy work that you do that's so important to you how did that come about and how do you sort of contemplate how the running serves your greater interests well um yeah i mean i decided with the running that i don't want to do anything kind of 80 it It's got to be full on. Bearing in mind the pivotal core of my life is 450 plus rescued animals that I care for.

So if I'm going to do something, I'm detracting from the time I'm spending with them. I'm taking energy away from my body that I could be spending on them. So I've got to make it worthwhile. And the reason I just became very, very frustrated, obviously when we got the sanctuary back in 1996 i thought okay this is great but it's addressing always the symptoms not the cause so i can take in like 400 animals i could have 4 000 animals if i've got the space but what about the billions and billions of animals out there that i can do nothing to help physically these animals are fine the ones that i care for

they will always be fine you know they're obviously the predominant force in my life but I wanted to do something to help those I you know the bad press and media that was especially given back in the 90s towards veganism it was either maligned or just ignored and I thought well you know I've been vegan all these years since I was six years old I'm not like um unable to get off the city or looking like I've been dug up from somewhere I want to be able to do something to promote my lifestyle in a positive way and I think people forget that at that time there wasn't social media you'd got to kind of had to don't do something to justify getting any press so I kind of thought well I haven't got any money and I'm not particularly

good at anything I'm I'm sporty and the reason I picked marathon running was that literally it was cheap it was going to do it at any time you needed a pair of running shoes you could do it alone and also there was a kind of semi-ready-made platform in that paula radcliffe back in the uk was doing these flamboyantly good marison times so obviously there was a heightened interest in marisons in the uk at that time and i thought well if i could kind of jump on the back of the publicity she's getting um that would kind of it's familiarized people with the event it's been billed as like you know um the toughest kind of this is a plain road running um endurance event in the athletic calendar so if i could kind of use that and and do marisons fairly well then that would be um a free publicity

for the sanctuary because we don't spend anything on we've got no budget for anything um it would get free advertising for the sanctuary because when you win races people say you know what do you do for a living oh yeah i run an animal sanctuary i don't do it for a living but i do run an animal sanctuary um and also just really um an opportunity to people are interested in how you've won that race or how you've done well in it um you can say by the way i'm vegan and that's the reason back in 2004 people don't know that um we've got a big running club in the uk i think vegan runners is now the biggest running club in the uk by membership i started that with a guy called peter simpson back in 2004 because i was getting elite starts i was getting offered

places in races asked to go and paid for and he said you know obviously at the time i was running for vegetarian cycling and athletics club because that was the only affiliated club that got anything in it relative to what i wanted to promote but i said well yeah for sure i'll run for that club but i'm a vegan and i would like people to know that when i run past them or i beat them i would like them to know that I'm vegan and so it's a real hard job to affiliate a running club in the UK I don't know what it's like in the States but Peter did all the kind of paperwork and the legwork and I did the running back then and that's how vegan runners were started and it was at a time like you know when you were going to the London Marathon that's you know not the biggest in numbers Berlin's the biggest in numbers but major major marathon in the UK one of the five majors there were at the time

and you you're on the elite start you're setting off 45 minutes ahead of the elite men and the main race and you just it was just basically an opportunity to run 26.2 miles through the streets of London, which are closed, with crowds everywhere focusing on these few female runners, me being one of them, and the handle that you see on your vest is vegan. That's basically why I've done the running. I'm not interested in anything else but promoting that word. But what's really interesting in your response, what comes across, what I gather from that is a strong sense of self-belief. Like you'll say, oh, I'm nothing special. I'm not that talented, et cetera. But clearly there's a drive or a sense of purpose that is underscored by a belief in your ability to compete at a level that

would be sufficient to get this kind of attention, right? Yeah, I mean, I just literally was the runner that used to look and think, why are those runners up there and I'm back here? I want to be up there with them and I'll do what it takes to get there. I clock that very quickly in London Marathon. I don't want to be running in a cage for a three-hour bracket on the green star. I want to be up there on the main star with the good runners going in the bus with the other elite athletes and being out there with them because that's the place and you felt like you belong there no not particularly i still don't know i've never felt i belong there i've actually gone along to these races and oh my lord when i'm actually walking to

the start of the elite race in berlin with harley gabriel so i say i'm literally checking out the opposition and thinking that guy in the Superman suit, he looks quick. You know what I mean? I'm literally no confidence runner. And all the way, I'm going to the start thinking, oh, I wish an excuse had come up that I didn't have to go. And it's a real weird thing with me, but I get on the start line and it's this Fiona goes, she leaves me, and game on, Fiona appears. And I'm willing, I couldn't hurt another living being,

but I can certainly dish it out to myself. She doesn't brag about anything she does, you know, she just gets on with it. But what she does is quite remarkable, really. The beauty about Fiona is that she's taking care of, you know, hundreds of animals on her sanctuary, and then she's training and she's, you know, of animals on her sanctuary and then she's training and she's you know competing in these grueling events fiona she says i'm not really a runner now how can somebody that runs a 238 marathon call themselves not really a runner i mean she's not right she's a really good runner she's a really good runner my running begins and ends when I'm actually physically doing it. I don't live running. Running is something I do as a job for the animals.

It's kind of a funny story with the running. I don't like it. I lack talent. I lack ability. But probably the strength I've got is that I actually do actually recognise that but I don't really know too much about running I don't really care that much about running I just care about the results I can get from the running I have always felt quite embarrassed when I'm invited to these mega races and people are looking at me thinking and you're you know what are

you doing here kind of thing and I know I don't look the same as everybody else and when I tell people you know I've got like doing here kind of thing. And I know I don't look the same as everybody else. And when I tell people, you know, I've got like eighth place in the Amsterdam Marathon or like top 20 in London and Berlin and that Great North Run, and these are the biggest races in the world. These are not for messing around with. People are like flabbergasted.

Well, Keegan did a beautiful job of documenting the pageantry and the beauty and the sort of epic nature of doing MDS. But I think, you know, I've watched the movie a couple times, but what really struck me watching it this time and what I think, at least to me, and I'm interested in your thoughts, seems to be the most difficult thing that you ever did was going from Atacama and suffering that injury and five days later running that marathon on Antarctica, not sure if you're even going to be able to run, to winning that and breaking that record. So how did you recover? What was that like? We went off to South America and I have to say if I'd have known what I was letting myself in for I question whether I would have actually gone

it was so horrible and I'm forever grateful that my mum actually went with me and witnessed it because if she hadn't I don't think she would have believed it The Atacama Volcano Marathon is extreme in a very different way to the ice marathons. It's one of the highest marathons in the world, so you start at 14,500 feet and you've only got 11% oxygen, so about half what you'd have at sea level.

And I'd convinced myself that it wouldn't be too bad running a marathon at 14,000 feet altitude. I really hadn't given it that much thought. Running at altitude, I think especially for someone who comes from sea level, is definitely a challenge. It is very, very extreme. I think more extreme and potentially more risky than the ice marathons. You've got to contest with the fact that you're running at altitude, but you're not kind of running.

You are battling very, very bad terrain. About 28k. I rolled my knee on a stone or whatever it was. I don't know. I just rolled my knee and slipped. I knew I'd damaged it badly the minute I did it. I just thought, OK, I'm going to have to walk. I'm going to have to do what I've got to do to finish.

And it's not going to be pretty. And it really wasn't. If I'd just been trying to do this for myself, I'm going to have to walk. I'm going to have to do what I've got to do to finish. And it's not going to be pretty. And it really wasn't. If I'd just been trying to do this for myself, I wouldn't have put myself through it. I have to say that. But I wasn't doing it for myself. So I did. And I remember laying in the back of this ambulance,

14,400 feet up the side of a volcano in the Atacama Desert, thinking, how the hell am I going to recover from this? The doctor has just told me that I am not going to recover from this? The doctor has just told me that I am not going to run again this year. It was November, November the 14th. How the hell am I going to run in Antarctica in five days? Yeah, I mean, it was really, really horrendous. I was having some angst with the race organiser and he didn't want me to go to Antarctica and so it was a brilliant opportunity. He'd actually organised the Atacama race.

So it must have been Maya from heaven when he saw me. Literally, my mum saw me too. She was in a race car just keel over with my knee. And when I got to the finish, I was very, very fortunate. One guy who was helping with the race, he saw what had happened and he insisted, because he spoke the language out there, he actually insisted that the doctors give me IV pain relief because otherwise I don't think, I don't know what would have happened.

But literally it was just a complete disaster. I still don't know how I did that in Antarctica. I literally hobbled to the start. We went to Punta Arenas to wait to fly to Antarctica and I had to walk around, well, sort of hobble around Punta Arenas looking to buy, find a shop that sells those walking poles because I thought I'm going to have to walk and I've even got these great big walking boots and I thought it's two laps and I thought, well, if I start and I try to run and then I can't run and then I go to walking poles and just have to walk around but it's bleak I mean you kind of forget when you

can run like okay it's 34 35 36 minutes for a 10k you tend to think how long's 10k gonna take me and then you start looking you watch like in MDS and thinking it's a cozy two hours and you're thinking oh my god you know so it takes a long time to walk 13 miles in Antarctica. And I started at the back of the race, and there was some Japanese guy, and he wasn't wearing a Santa suit, but he got one of those jokey Santa suits over the top of his running stuff.

And even he kind of went off into the distance, and I'm kind of on my own thinking, oh, Lord, you know, I'm going to have to, how long is this going to take? It's going to take like 10 hours or something at this pace. And I don't know, I just kind of on my own thinking, oh, Lord, you know, I'm going to have to, how long is this going to take? It's going to take like 10 hours or something at this pace. And I don't know. I just kind of got warmed up. The pain kind of left my body.

I forgot about it. And I just thought, do what you can. And I really don't know where that run came from. I just, something on the start line. I'm just so blessed. I was in so much pain. just something on the start line i i'm just so blessed i was in so much pain and i remember being in santiago seeing other runners arrive to fly to punta arenas that hadn't been in the atacama race because i'd been the only fool that had decided to combine the two so it's like you

know i thought it was a really good idea and i've been told that loads of runners are doing both feeling it'd not be a problem and i am the only one and um I got this angst from the race director who was making my life an absolute misery and um the thought of having to go down there and just not be able to finish the job that I'd started was pretty brutal uh but the funny thing was that um he put every obstacle in my way and if honestly it was all worth it to see his face when I was like oh my, he's here again. The vegan runner woman coming in, she's going to win the race.

But I don't know. I don't, I don't know. I don't enjoy running. I know I'm no good at it. And you know what I mean? I just want to get it over with quickly. You're not going to give up on that story. Well, it's true.

It's absolutely and utterly true. I enjoy the fact that I can do it because there are many people out there that can't. So that's kind of insulting to them. But I'm always in such a hurry with the running. I literally, literally fitting it in. I mean, people don't know. I think you're in a hurry in general. Yeah.

I mean, I'm like either at the fire brigade. I'm a firefighter too. Yeah, I know. And I do that in my spare time just, you know, for a bit of income and a bit of diversion from what else I'm like either at the fire brigade. I'm a firefighter too. Yeah, I know. And I do that in my spare time, just for a bit of income and a bit of diversion from what else I'm doing. So literally, I'll be one minute, I'll be bombing up the fire station in Miniety

and then driving a pump and being out for four hours and I'm thinking, when am I going to fit my running in? So I literally am that person that is stomping around the house looking for the elusive socks that's gone missing just to grab it and go. And then as soon as I I get back running stuff's off and I'm just in another mode probably actually helps because I don't actually get time to contemplate how awful it's going to be when I'm out there running I don't know there's stuff that needs to be done all the

time you know animals to see to there's medications to attend to there's maintenance to do there's a list of jobs as long as you're on. The thought of having to do all that work and then go out and run 20 miles. It's not even just like, oh I'm just going to do a nice little country jog. It's appalling speed work to have to fit in or an appalling 20 mile road run and then come back and as soon as you get back, you have to then start the evening jogs. Even though, you know, we've lived together 24 years,

I have no idea how anybody can fit all that in. Let's bring Keegan into this. Yeah, don't get rid of me. So, Keegan, this is a very interesting choice for your third movie. Your first two movies, Cowspiracy, What the Health. You sort of established yourself as this provocateur in your collaboration with Kip Anderson. These are movies that crossed over to mainstream audiences and really created a lot of conversation around these ideas that you're passionate about.

around these ideas that you're passionate about. But this is a very different kind of movie. So why this movie? What struck you about Fiona? What compelled you to document her journey? Yeah, so when Kip and I were doing a fundraising campaign for Cowspiracy, Martin, Fiona's partner, reached out, or maybe it was Fiona directly, and said, hey, we heard about the film, looks amazing, Let us know what we can do to help out. And so I looked up who these people

were, and I said, help us. How can we help you? And the response that Kip and I got for Cowspiracy and What the Health was phenomenal, but I was constantly hearing this, yeah, well, I'm an athlete. I do X sort of training, and I could never be vegan. And I thought that can't be true. There's people like Rich Roll. There's these ultra endurance athletes who are breaking world records. We need to do more to promote that. And Fiona had been in the back of my mind for a long time. Then I spoke to one of our executive producers, Cheryl Greenberg, and she talked about how the vegan community is predominantly female, and yet women aren't really highlighted in the

vegan movement. It's the male faces and the male names and the male organizer, heads of organizations that are really promoted. And that there needs to be more emphasis on promoting and elevating women in this movement because it is a female-dominated movement. I thought, hey, if we can combine those two things, promoting women, vegan women, breaking the stereotypes of veganism holds you back from any sort of athletic achievements, then you've got something powerful. And Fiona takes all of those and then being a hardcore ethical vegan on top of it, which speaks to my heart. So this is perfect. And also, you really couldn't ask for a better character for a documentary than Fiona. Yeah. I first met Fiona in 2014.

She came into the shop and she was just this whirlwind. Like she was absolutely mad as a box of frogs. I'm not sure you can describe her in any other terms. She is absolutely extraordinary. And what's really extraordinary about her is she doesn't look extraordinary. I heard her resting heart rate's like 30 or something. It's so low that they're like, are you even alive?

She just doesn't seem to stop. I don't know how she does what she does. So she runs this animal sanctuary with 400 or so animals. She trains like maybe 100 miles a week. She's just so dedicated to what she does. And she doesn't do it for her, you know. She does it for the animals and for other people, and she's trying to promote sustainability.

When you first meet her, you've got no sense that you're talking to someone that's extraordinary. And one of the reasons is that she doesn't self-promote. She has no sense of actually how fantastic she is. What's interesting about the movie, among many things, but what struck me, which I didn't notice the first couple of times I watched the movie, is that you don't even hear the word vegan

until you're two-thirds of the way into the film. Was that a conscious decision? Yeah, that's a conscious decision. If you watch any of the films that I've done, you don't hear the word vegan until 40. This is the earliest film that you hear is 43 minutes in. What the hell is like 47 minutes and Cowspiracy is like an hour and 10 minutes in. You really, like what Fiona has done, you really have to pull people in to a story before you can introduce them to veganism because people, they're so resistant to it. It seems so extreme to so many

people. So you have to really kind of drag them along, get them interested. Why? Why did you run in a cow costume? Why, you know, why am I interested in this movie? If it just says vegan, you're only going to appeal to mostly the vegans. So yeah, it was definitely a conscious effort. So how long, how much time did you spend with Fiona? What's the period of time that you guys hung out to do this? Total, probably about a month and a half. Two weeks in January 2017, two weeks in the Sahara Desert, 10 days in the Sahara Desert. And then another two weeks

or not even, not even, about a month total time over the course of a year. And going into this, obviously you're familiar with Fiona's story and you have an idea of what you're getting involved in. What occurred that you didn't expect? Like what did you find out about Fiona or this world, this subculture in which she lives and thrives that you were not originally aware of? I really wasn't aware of how humble Fiona was. I knew that she was humble because of everything I'd seen and read, but I didn't realize that it was to this, like, heartfelt level, that it wasn't like a facade or like trying to put on, you know, to be cute in a humble sort of way. This is very genuine. This is who this person is.

I found that really refreshing. I think also, for an audience, too, that's amazing to see. There's a lot of huge egos in sports. And I love sports documentaries. I can watch a sports documentary about anything. I mean, literally, race car driver, boxers, soccer players, and I'm not into sports at all. But these stories were always people, they want to be the best in the world, but for what?

It's like, so they can be the best in the world? There's nothing else other than that or a paycheck. And then to have somebody who strives to be the best simply to create a platform to talk about compassionate living, it's like, that's a documentary I want to see. So I really made this movie for myself for that. And again, just that humbleness, that lack of ego, because it's selfless, was, I think, one of the most shocking things about making it. I had spoken to the other runners,

and there was almost like an overconfidence to them. Fiona was really refreshing because here she was touted as one of the elite runners, sharing with me in all honesty that she was terrified just as I was. And I looked at her and I'm like, how can you be terrified? So we're laying there in our cots and just like staring up at the tent ceiling going, this is going to be brutal. And she's like, yep, it's going to be really hard. I came in like six and a half hours later,

and she hugged me and she just said, I am so proud of you. And I was like, really? Like, you've been laying here for six hours waiting for me to finish. She's like, yeah, but I think you were the toughest. She's so incredibly strong, and she kind of denies it in herself, but she's so willing to acknowledge it in others. Honestly, like I've never seen someone so strong and so, so humble. You strike me as a, not only a deeply compassionate person, but somebody who is,

who has a vast reservoir of empathy and this sensitivity to suffering. And perhaps you were born this way. You can see it in every frame of film and the way that you interact with these animals that you care so deeply about. But I'm wondering if there's a relationship between the suffering that you endured as a result of your injury with your knee and the sort of process of recovering from that. I mean, Keegan, you sort of tip your hat to this point in the movie, but this connection between what you endured going through that

and how you kind of empathize with the plight of these animals and their suffering. She was always an athletic little girl until she had this terrible problem in the early teens. She started having knee pain. Slightly before my teenage years I developed a problem with my knee. I was in all sorts of pain, all sorts of trouble with it. So I went into hospital continually having the back of my kneecap scraped off, having the ligaments and things readjusted around my kneecap to kind of pivot it in a different direction and nothing was

really working. That was my right leg that was affected to start with and then because I was leaning so heavily on my left leg that became weak and affected so I was having all these surgeries. It was very very frustrating. I think I had about 17 operations in all. I was not able to go to school. I was getting too weak to go to school. I couldn't mobilise around the school. I couldn't do anything. There wasn't even offered any home tutoring. And then the doctor said, look, we've got a serious problem. There is a massive conglomeration behind your kneecap. It is turning it to jelly. It is crumbling inside and it needs to come out and it needs to come out quickly.

This is going to be a big operation and this is going to be very painful. I have to say I've never been in pain like I was in after that operation. I couldn't lay, I couldn't move in my bed, I couldn't literally alter my position in my bed. I was told I wouldn't walk again properly, let alone be able to do sporting activities, especially things like running, which were high impact. I was going to be registered disabled at one point because it looked so hopeless.

So that was an incredibly challenging time for all the family, actually. Yeah, definitely. I mean, you learn from experience. That's the best way to learn. You can tell somebody something all the time. You can tell people, oh, that race is really hard and they're probably looking at something that's a bit sand and a backpack, that can't be that hard and 50-odd degree heat.

But you learn from experience. So I do understand that what I went through as a teenager has obviously impacted me. But the important thing, it hasn't made me bitter. It's just made me focused on not allowing it, if I can, prevent it happening to anything or anyone else. Not in terms of that suffering, what happened to me. It wasn't anyone's fault. It was just something.

But you learn, have an empathy for, yes, unnecessary suffering is just appalling. Any sort of pain of any sort of creature is just something you just wouldn't want to inflict. I don't know i i mean it's really really hard for me to sit here in front of an audience and have a film about me in fact when keegan actually contacted me i thought it was martin winding milk literally i mean we're trying to make you as uncomfortable as possible yeah i mean it was like you know i mean why would anyone want to make a film about me i mean i'm just'm just like eating, you know, my soup at night. I mean, you can't even run. Yeah, no.

I mean, I know. I see you've admitted it now. I finally got you to admit it. You've convinced me. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I mean, I can't, yeah, I mean, okay. You know, I can run physically, I can put one leg in front of the other, but yeah, I'm not great.

I'm very determined, you know, and I've got doing it for a reason. I am doing it for a reason, and that reason is greater than, oh, I've got doing it for a reason I am doing it for a reason and that reason is greater than oh I've got my eye on winning that Garmin or a PB

or a place that's of no interest to me whatsoever in fact you go to these races and people start talking about all things running and UTMB points

and have you done that race and have you done this race and I haven't got a clue what they're talking about you know and I'm thinking go away for me running is about

A to B as quickly as you can getting the job done and um seeing if you can knock it on to help animals that's another thing that i've done i mean i've had to really work hard for a cv that's actually made people sit up and you know look the results i've got like in 2005 when i was coming back from amsterdam with that eighth place and placing in the london marathon and the Berlin Marathon all the big races I only used to do two marathons a year and that was basically because it was economical financially and physically I didn't have to be away from the sanctuary and I did this kind of speaking to this on a podcast today and the lady said to me I said I've never even had a massage i've no coach i've

no physio i've never had a massage i wouldn't know what it was if it hit me in the face um i've literally running charity shop closing and obviously i've got my shoes now and you know my shoes are very important to me because obviously i have to be careful with my knees but i i am i literally i'm miss cheap amateur Runner gone mad. I literally am. And then all of a sudden, one minute, you're running around the Dendry Peninsula where the only company is a squirrel that you might see. And the next minute, you're being chauffeured on this bus

to these technical meetings with all these Kenyans and Ethiopians. And they've all got the coaches and the managers. And I've got my mum. We're sitting at the back like two schoolchildren playing noughts and crosses. And they're going, technically, what do you want to do in this race? And you're thinking, I just want to finish it alive you know from get to a from b and successfully so it is a really weird scenario that i've been going through but and when you're

amongst these people you realize that um you're actually not very good yourself i mean you know but you're there winging it and bluffing it and um doing what you can for the animals but i've got no i had no particular interest in going to the north pole or doing any of that i just thought you know obviously if people say you know they feel tired they say oh i feel like i've run a marathon and if they say you know it's cold out there it's like north pole so put the two together and that's got to be definitive proof surely that a vegan can do anything but um and that's been the logic behind it can it be a win for the for the animals can i get something back in there you know introduce because it's like creative activism that i've had to do so if you're going to join the fire brigade it's introducing not

at the time it was introducing females to a forum that not necessarily going to be in i was the first female firefighter in our division and then when it cropped up that i was vegan as well you can see the hassle i got from the guys there so you've all but they had to think about it they had to think about the fact that I wasn't going to wear leather fire boots so they had to import them from Italy for me um so you know that kind of thing just gently introducing kind of veganism and making whether they're going to go vegan or not they've got to be aware of it and respect it and that's what my activism has kind of been about. People listen to Fiona talk and they come to me afterwards and say you must be very proud.

I say no. Pride reflects onto me. I look at her in awe and then the guilt kicks in. The guilt at having brought a life into the world that is so compassionate and feeling and loving that she has to push herself to these tremendous lengths to try to get a platform so that she can speak for those who have no voice. Fiona, we were chatting a little bit before the film about sort of the current state of awareness and excitement around this movement. And as somebody who's been vegan and advocating in this space since you were six, seven years old, what's your perspective on where the movement is now and and how do you

you know think about that yeah i mean it's really exploded i mean every day in the uk something new comes up every time you turn on the media it's first thing you hear is vegan or something like that it really has gone mad and literally it's just growing and growing and growing and i think people talk about the tipping point and I think we surely are reaching it and what what I would like to emphasize especially to younger people is I think they forget a pre-social media time when this just wasn't available when I say I went vegan at six I didn't just say to my mom I want to go vegan I didn't even know what vegan was it was just an ethical choice I knew that I wanted to opt out of certain things and I couldn't put a name to it it was more of a feeling that I had but now I mean obviously

it's growing and I think especially with young people it's the youngsters that are actually realizing this this is not just vegan isn't just one pronged it's not just it started with the animals for me and I'm still learning as a vegan um obviously I didn't realize I mean conspiracy what the health have taught me a lot I just know my bit of veganism but now it's just growing and growing and growing and I think young people especially are realizing this isn't just about animals and the health it's about the health of the planet the health of those that others that live on it and the environment and it's scary what's happening to the environment and it's their future and their children's future and they're taking hold with the initiative they've got and the inspiration they provide um it gives me hope

because at times i've been in a complete state of despair hence the cow costume you're running doing anything you've got to do that's why i ended up at the north pole in the desert because what what have you got to do to make people listen? But now there's a whole generation out there that can do that successfully. And that's, yes, that's massive. Keegan, you had your own ultra experience trying to document this while the race was going on by yourself, right?

It wasn't you and a crew of people. It was just you and very heavy camera equipment running yourself across the desert. And I'm left wondering, watching this, like, how did he do that? Like, where's Keegan sleeping? Where is he going? How is he charging his batteries? Like, how is all of this working? So walk us through that. Yeah. I mean, logistically, it was definitely a challenge. Kip and I, my co-director for Cowspiracy and What the Health, have always

done things super low budget and super low crew. People say, oh, where's your crew? And it's like, well, it would be just he and I. And since I solo directed this one, it was literally just me. I thankfully had a driver during Marathon de Sable, and about 50%, maybe a little bit less of the course is accessible by vehicle. So we would drive along, he'd say, hey, this is where the course is. I jump out, I get a shot. But then the other half of the time he'd say, okay, so you see that mountain range, go over it and then go down to the next valley,

cross the valley, and there will be the course. And so it would be literally carrying my gear, go over the mountain, get the shot, and then hike back over to get to the truck. Sleeping in a similar camp to Fiona's camp, there was a volunteer and staff tent area separate from the runner's tents. Eating one meal a day uh bringing my own food because there's not really any offerings for for vegans out there um but it was an awesome epic adventure i mean i was i was doing half their distances at times it was going quicker than we were did you lose your toenails i i thankfully did not. But I did almost die making this movie.

People ask all the time with Cowspiracy and What the Health, they say, you know, it's a controversial film. It goes up against this big industry. Do you all get death threats? And oftentimes we kind of like joke it off, like, oh, yeah, yeah, no, yeah. But this movie, when we finished Marathon to Sawol, I was exhausted. I'd been breathing in dust for the last two weeks, running, going as hard as I could, not really taking care of myself. And I flew to South Africa

the next couple of days afterwards to go speak at an event. And I contracted a horrible respiratory infection to the point that I had to be hospitalized and had a sustained fever of 110 plus for a number of days, hallucinating, didn't know who I was, didn't know where I was. So I got to do my own little adventure as well. Glad that happened after the experience, not before, right? Me too. So I want to make this interactive and open this up to participation and questions from the audience. Thank you. But before I do that, one last thing, Keegan.

What is it that you want the audience to take from Fiona's story and this movie that you've made? I want everybody to feel inspired. I want people to see Fiona's challenges and everything she's accomplished despite all the hindrances that she's faced, both from physically, the fact that media doesn't want to give her the attention she deserves, on and on and on.

I want people to see that and be inspired to do whatever their challenge is, whatever their marathon is, their marathon is possible, but to also be inspired to say, I have to do something bigger than myself, that a life of service has so much value and so much importance and something that I think we really need in this world and for ourselves as well, that we're having more fulfilling, meaningful lives when we do things for others versus just for ourselves. And then secondarily, I want everybody to say, vegan doesn't hold you back from anything. And in fact, it might make you better at what you want to do. All right, let's open this up.

I'm just going to take this one right here at the top. This is a question for Fiona. Have you ever had conversations about your diet with other non-vegan athletes during your many races? And did they or anybody make the switch after talking with you yeah i have conversations with other runners i mean um best way of answering them is not waste your breath just go out and beat them you know what i mean then then you've answered all the questions because i mean uh in the longer races you do get time more time to talk and people

there are always curious and how they can improve their performance and if they see you doing better than them they're interested in the diet because that was another thing about going after this activism and promotion of veganism through sport you've kind of got a captive audience there that are interested in performance they're interested in ways of improving their performance so they want to know if you're better than them or perceived to be better than them they'll ask how you got better than them um but yeah we i've i've it's been it sounds kind of i don't know conceited to say it but if you are actually just performing better than them they're not so negative towards what you're doing they might

say oh you won't be able to sustain that long on a vegan diet so we'll be at it for 40 odd years so you know i mean how long i'm gonna be in my coffin before you finish you know that um but you know um it is um i've had a lot of people in fact the tent that i shared with there they were a really good bunch of guys weren't they and not none of them have gone full vegan but a lot of like very proud telling me that i found vegan ice cream in kuwait fiona and if i come and stay with you at the new sanctuary you know i'm quite prepared to eat vegan for the whole week so you know and one of the biggest wins is elizabeth barnes who um the mds runner has, she has not been well since, um, for about a year and she's switched vegan now. And, um, she said she, she feels amazing. She's getting a miles back in her legs now,

and she's hoping to go back to MDS next year. And she puts that definitely down to being plant based. Yeah, that's great. Um, the next question has to do with balancing everything. How do you balance your running, the sanctuary, your relationship? I know you're always in a hurry. And maybe to kind of embark on answering that question, like take us through a day in the life from waking up in the morning to go into bed. Well, we get up at half past three every morning. And then whatever needs doing, I do. It changes seasonally, obviously, because there's different jobs to do in the winter

because I've got a lot of large animals. We've got 76 horses. I've got 121 pigs. We've got 22 cows. So it's better to deal with those in the daylight hours. So if it's in the winter, I'll do more of the jobs that I can do indoors or in stables, and then I'll go out to do them.

How I balance it is I literally don't stop all day. I have this one meal a day thing going on that everybody says I just eat one meal a day, and I get up in the morning, and I work right through, and I just don't stop. I never sit down and never do anything but work. And it's kind of, I can't have recovery time. But my idea of a recovery time would be,

we have this food donation programme from a big supermarket, Sainsbury, where they donate their bread and vegetables for the pigs to eat, but it has to be unwrapped. So if I've come back from a 20-mile run, the only opportunity I'm going to have to rest my legs is to sit in the middle of all these bags of bread and unwrap them so that will be my recovery period like an hour sitting unwrapping the bread and then if i've got a bit of uh paperwork to do that i'll give me some recovery

if i've been outside shoveling or whatever i'm doing balancing it is um it's not difficult for me because the animals always come first the training is very secondary to running the sanctuary. And regarding my relationship, well, I don't know where that went. But, you know, I mean, I'll tell you now, Martin and I have been at that sanctuary now for 22 years and we've never been out together anywhere. In fact, Keegan took me out for a meal. Keegan and Sharni took me out for a meal.

I'm sitting there looking at this menu, waddling my legs. I don't know what this means. This is nonsensical to me. Keegan took me out for a meal, Keegan and Sharni took me out for a meal. I'm sitting there looking at this menu, waddling my legs. I don't know what this means. This is nonsensical to me. Because people do ask me, what do you eat? I don't literally eat pig food. I don't go to a farm distributor and say, can I have a bag of pig food and open it and stick my head in it.

But because we're on this donation program, they give us their on-date vegetables. So I'm not going to be sitting in the middle of my bread, unwrapping it in the vegetables and think, oh, I must go and fetch some bananas. That's going to take half an hour and like five pounds in money. I will literally eat those bananas. And that's basically what I live on, the donated on-date vegetables, pig food.

So last night, let me just clarify here. Last night at the restaurant oh yeah that's the first time you've been to a restaurant since i can't even remember going to one before we got the sanctuary so i mean it's like a definite 22 years 22 years yeah although there's not a lot of there's not a lot of like netflix and chill, there is not a lot of Netflix and chill. There's no going down to the pub. So what do you do? How do you relax? I don't.

You can't just go, go, go, go, go all the time. I'll tell you now, when I've been training for marathons, no word of a lie, the meal that I've had at night, I've had to have it in bed, and I've fallen asleep with it hanging out my mouth sometimes. Honestly, I'm not tired. But, you know, I get up the next morning, I recover, I go out. The animals need me. And the training is voluntary.

I just want to give 100%. I'm not going to go out there and give 90% because that's just not worth going. The energy it takes to run well, it's no point. I'm not out there recreationally. It's great if you are, but I'm not. So I'm doing it for a purpose. It's part if you are, but I'm not. So I'm doing it for a purpose. It's part of what I do with the sanctuary. It's part and parcel of me. So it's 100%. And that takes a lot of energy to give 100%. And that's fine. I'm not looking for people to feel

sorry for me. It's my choice. Nobody's got a gun to my head. I want to do this. I want to do as much as I can before I die. Because as I say, you're a long time dead. You can't come back. I don't want to look with regrets and think I should have done that. I should have done that. I've done the maximum I genuinely can. I don't think I could have done a lot more. Where does this drive come from?

It drives, comes from suffering. It's really strange to say a juxtaposition when I left to come here yesterday morning. I left the sanctuary. It's beautifully tranquil. The sun was just coming up in the dawn, and the cattle and the horses are grazing in these beautiful fields. Not a care in the world. And I got in the car, coming to Heathrow, and I saw a cattle transporter, a double-loading one. And then I saw a cattle transporter, a double loading one. And then I saw a sheep transporter and it just wrecked me because why aren't those animals having what my animals have got? Why do they have to suffer like that? And you feel so helpless at this hopeless situation that you're facing.

That drives me. It's not it's not right injustice drives me and that's injustice in the extreme towards our fellow creatures um so yeah i'm happy to do it i'm i'm just i always look back and think i'm blessed to be able to do it and i will say that the years of immobility i had about six years of immobility i've got a funny shape for marison running i've got a very defined kind of upper body i'm very strong in my upper body and people say oh you do weights you know no no i don't i mean i can kind of lie and say oh yes i do a bit of weight training i haven't got a clue and um it's probably the years that i spent on crutches uh i mean my legs were in plaster for so many years I don't I don't sound awful I don't know how to

say this gross woman I don't grow hairs on my legs I've got no I've got no I'm completely bald on my legs because my legs were always in plaster it killed the roots and so I've you know it's it's it wasn't easy to be 13 14 15 and wanting to be outside and literally going back to the hospital and being non-weight-bearing and in a lot of pain and i will say at this time when i was introduced to hospital that's when um my mum was accused of child cruelty uh because the diet flagged up and um it was considered to be an eating disorder i mean veganism an eating disorder but i get people right to me now and say the same thing you know doctors

health professionals saying you know it's it's not healthy and you know even when I've come back from races you know and I've won them a lady died on Everest sadly and um BBC rang me and asked me for a quote and I'm thinking well I don't know anything about it I've been in Namibia anyway I didn't know her didn't you know she was a vegan I said I don't know every vegan on the planet there aren't six of us in the world, and I knew her. But she died in Everest. Do you think that's because she was a vegan? And I said, no, I think it's because Everest is a very dangerous place to be,

whether you're a vegan or not. And funnily enough, the guy that had helped me get through the race in the Atacama, Basti, he died on Everest. And he definitely wasn't a vegan, you know, so to speak. But people always say, you know, one child in Italy is found malnourished she was a vegan that's the reason you know they ignore all you know the children out there that are malnourished and you know obese and whatever it's just got to be that one kid who's who's vegan and then all vegans are the same but um it's that pressed a very very quick still to jump on the negativity rather than the positivity

but that's what drives me i don't care how tired i am because in that race i will say you know it's hard it's brutal you're going along there oh it's terrible but at the end of the day it can't be that terrible that you can just put your hand up and say actually i've had enough now can i go back to camp you and you can if you want you're not gonna because you know you desperately want to complete it and get the medal but um you know i know i'm even i don But I'm reluctant to say I know what suffering is because I've always got options. Animals haven't got options.

And that's what drives me. I know that. And I know that, yeah, it's pretty insignificant what I do, but I'm lucky to be able to do it. I'm afraid to ask the next part of this question because I'm afraid your advice is not going to be good. The question is advice for dealing with injury. Oh, no, no, no, no, no.

So I'm afraid you're going to... No, no, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not. Based on how you deal with injury. Well, I tell you... I'm not sure. Well, I tend to sometimes, I go out running sometimes and I feel so bad. I actually think, I'm either going to get through this in one piece,

or I'm just going to drop dead. He has pushed me out the door to go on my long run on a Sunday, and I've been crying. And I've contemplated seriously, we live up as a bridal pass, running up there, giving it all the faith, and then going up there and just sitting down for two hours, and then coming back and saying, I've done it. But you never do when you get out there you know you rise to I

wouldn't say I would run through um injuries this that I've got with my knee it's a manageable pain I know how to deal with that it you know I can deal with that I wouldn't call that an injury I wouldn't tell people to get out there and beast it till it hurts and if it don't drop off you're all right I wouldn't I wouldn't say that I'd probably do it myself i have to say but that's not what i would advise i can give out great advice i just don't take it you know what i mean clearly um all right next question uh how do you start training for a race and what would you recommend to somebody who wants to run their first marathon just a road marathon just build up gradually and sustain it you haven't got to be that fast to run i was trying to explain something you haven't got to be that fast

to run a sub 240 marathon you've only it's only just like 10 mile an hour or whatever you just got to be able to sustain it for a long period of time so i would say build up gradually and don't go into it all like oh yeah I can do 40 miles today because you're going to get injured don't do too much build up gradually that's what I do with all my training I I I'm not that flamboyantly good runner but I can sustain it over a 10 week period I can sustain a training program that's going to get me through 100 miles a week and for me the testament to the time you can run on race day is only a testament to the amount of training your body will allow you to do in in when you're actually building up to the event

and that's the pure testament of a vegan diet the recovery you've got to be able to recover very quickly to run two sessions a day hard sessions and to keep doing it week in week out it's no good doing it one week and then being, you know, ripped apart and flattened your back the next. You've got to be able to do it very, very gradually. And don't overload. Don't stress about times. Just get familiar with the distance.

My motto is if you don't train hard, you won't race hard. And I do have some weird training going on. Like if I run up to 20 miles I never take water with me I won't allow myself water that's just um I don't know places I can get water along route but I like to make it as hard as I can because sure as hell going to be hard on the day but consistency yeah consistency is all important yeah yeah you know managing the miles and doing the speed work if you want to run it if you just want to get around a marathon just become familiar with the the mileage you've got to do if you want to run a marathon quickly you've got to do speed work and you've got to do hard speed work. So you have this background in track cycling, right?

Yeah. So that preceded the running. Yeah. I've never heard you talk about it, but you can see your bikes a couple of times in the movie. Do you still ride? And how did that career inform your running career? Yeah.

I mean, cycling is very, very good exercise if you can't impact. That's why I took cycling. I've, cycling is very, very good exercise if you can't impact. That's why I took cycling. I've been cycling before my injuries and I went back to cycling because it's just low impact and it's just straightforward, you know, exercise that I could do quite easily. The reason I packed up with cycling and I've ridden all around the world bike racing on the road and the track is before bike racing became so popular. around the world bike racing on the road and the track it's before bike racing became so popular um we didn't have much of a bike racing program in the uk till sort of early noughties um so um i just did cycling because it was something that i knew my body would probably allow me to do and it did to a certain extent the reason i packed it up was it's very time consuming you've got to be out there four or five hours a day if you want to do well on the road.

If you want to do well on the track, you've got to go to a track and train. There isn't one near me. There's not one for miles. It's expensive, the bikes, the equipment. It just wasn't for me. When we moved to the sanctuary, we didn't have a penny. We didn't have anything. And I said, I don't have the time.

I just thought, you know, an an hour's running two hours running a day that's plenty but you know four hours and bike maintenance but I don't bother riding my bike now I tend to just train running I don't actually I could say I do but I don't really do much cross training I just run can we get you some help with the sanctuary can we get some people to help you out so you don't have to wake up at three o'clock in the morning every day yeah i mean if we could would you accept that help yeah if people wanted to come to the sanctuary and help out if they wanted to come they would be welcome to come and help um yeah uh it's hard running a sanctuary because unless people are going to come regularly they've got to familiarize themselves with the animals i never wanted the sanctuary to become an institutional

kind of place where you've got lots of animals and it's just oh put that horse in number 23 stable and i'll be down very soon it was i want it's a family we are a family and keegan came and he said do you know that horse of course i know them all by name i know every nuance of every action they do and i can walk down that yard and I can, you know, he's probably waiting for me to come home and say something like, what's wrong with Angel? It's a big Friesian horse. And he said, I don't know, I hadn't noticed.

And I know everything about every, just from the way they're standing, I can tell. It's got to be somebody that comes, that's willing to invest and learn like that. Because I think that running the sanctuary as I do, you've got to pre-empt problems. And that's what I like, prevention rather than cure for the animals. And it's also a very tranquil environment for them.

I don't want lots of people coming in and upsetting them. And because a lot of them are very heavily traumatised. I mean, we've had everything at the sanctuary. I mean, it's very horrible to say. I probably shouldn't say it. Everything from dogs that have been raped heavily. You know, we get all sorts coming there. It's not the pretty side of animal rescue, but it's the real side of it.

So, yeah, I would welcome help. Obviously, I would welcome help if people wanted to come and spend time there, yeah. Yeah, this is something I've talked to Jean Bauer about, you know, specifically the fact that you have to come into this awareness that you're not going to be able to save all of these animals, that your heart is in the right place, you do the best that you can,

you tend to these beings that are under your care, but also trying to find a way to make it sustainable because just like your training, it's about consistency. Like, I just, I fear, like, I see your schedule, and I was like, how do you avoid burning out? Like, how do you manage this gigantic load and shoulder this, you know, for such a long period of time without something not just breaking down in you?

I think the thing that would break down is mentally. That's where you're vulnerable, bodily, less so, you know, mentally. But I am very, very mentally strong and I've got a very firm reason of why I'm doing what I'm doing. And some people say to me, it must be easier for me because you're amongst the animals all the time. So you see the results or the rewards of what you're doing. And that is true to a a certain extent but on the other side of the coin um it's really heartbreaking because you see how individual certain animals are for instance i can never understand how people in the u well people all over it's certainly western world they seem

to dote on their dogs and their cats but they don't even have a sort for a pig or a sheep or a cow um it seems really strange yeah i for instance one night it was really really hot and we got this massive load of watermelons that had been donated from sainsbury so i said oh let's take them over to the pigs watermelons and bananas and give them a treat so we went over there and so there was all squeals of delight and it was sun setting and they were in their mud baths and piggies ran out and you know some wanted bananas some wanted watermelons some took watermelons and they decided wanted bananas and they're all running around joyous you know and you're thinking these are individual souls it just shows that they do have preferences desires they feel very much as we feel and that's what's very

inspiring about that race the maris and the sable you could just take it as a tough race so dinner party conversation look at this i've got this medal you know i've done mds but you could take it as a life-changing experience and when we're all stripped back actually to the bare essentials like in the desert um if you're out there you're running and somebody offered you um a big gold bar for instance something that you cover in civistry. You say, no, thank you, it's too heavy to carry. That kind of thing. And you realise that actually what is essential,

whether you're human or non-human alike, is water, shelter and food. And not being in fear and pain. They're the really important things in life. The material things are nothing. They're nothing at all. They're the things that really, really matter. And that's the same for animals as well.

And all animals deserve that. People come to the sanctuary and say, oh, aren't your animals lucky? And I say, no, they're just having what is their right. They're being afforded their rights. There shouldn't be luck involved in it. It should be there for all animals, but it's only there for a few. This next question is teed up for Keegan. Keegan, what is the biggest single issue facing the world today? Come on. A lot of people won't like this one. Yeah. The biggest issue facing

the world today is humanity. That's the reality of it. The world has been, for three billion years, doing all right. It goes through all these different cycles. But we're in this largest mass extinction planet seen in 65 million years. And that's human-caused. Too many of us wanting to live a Western lifestyle, that's a problem. It's a very solvable problem. We can abstain from having children.

We can adopt a plant-based diet. And we can choose to voluntarily lower our standard of living. Everybody in the world can't live at the standard of living that we have in the West. And we've got to be realistic about that, and that we've got to lower our standard of living to meet the rest of the world so there is more equality. That's probably not the answer they wanted either, though. I didn't have a desire for you to answer one way or the other, other than completely honestly, which you just did. That's my style. I have a quick question for you the last time

that we spoke on the podcast was on the cusp of what the health coming out um and we haven't sort of reconvened since then so i'm interested in what that experience has been like uh obviously the response to that movie was extraordinary. I really think that it impacted culture in a very substantial way. And so how did, you know, how do you think about the impact that the movie has had? And how does that affect or not affect how you advocate on behalf of the things that are important to you? Yeah, the response to what the health has been phenomenal. I mean, it just totally blew me away. And I think for Kip Anderson as well, my co-director on that film, it's been amazing how people have received that film and digested it and implemented it into their own lives of changing their lifestyle, whether going 100% vegan or just eliminating a lot of animal products from their diet.

The backlash that that film has gotten wasn't as surprising, to be honest, that we knew while making that film that there was going to be hard pushback to the information that's in the film because it shines a light on a lot of things that a lot of people don't want to look at. The role that large chemical agriculture plays in our food, the role that pharmaceutical industry plays in our healthcare, the role that the meat and dairy industry plays in health organizations. A lot of people don't want that talked about and they don't want to hear it. So the negative response that the film got was a little bit more expected, but it's done a lot to promote the film because people say,

oh, have you heard about that BS film, What the Health? And it's been, no, I haven't. Those guys are liars. Yeah, they're liars. There's a lot of that, right? So how do you choose or choose not to engage in that conversation, whether it's online or in media? Yeah. My response is always very simple. We make science-based films, fact-based films, every single statistic, stat, and reference in the film

is referenced on our website, whatthehealthfilm.com, cowspiracy.com as well, and there's a resource page that has literally every single source so you can see the original studies. So you can look up and you can decide for yourself whether it's true or not. I'm not a scientist. I'm a journalist, essentially.

So I'm presenting the information that's available. You guys all saw Cowspiracy and What the Health, yeah? Woo! Yeah. Is Kip here? I thought I saw Kip earlier. He might have dipped out. Oh, there he is.

Oh, there he is. He's waving. So Kip Anderson is here. Give him a shout out as well. So we got to wrap this up. Two questions. First, how and when can people who are listening to this or watching it on YouTube, how can they see the movie? Yeah. So the film will be released shortly. We're working on some final legal things to get it out. But it will be released online hopefully by middle to end of September.

It will also be available for theatrical screenings and community organized screenings. And then we'll see where it goes from there. But the feeling is that when we get this vegan community behind a film, just like we saw with Cowspiracy and What the Health. It gives it legs way beyond any distributor. And then when we get the running world behind it, when we get the female athletics behind it, when we get everybody who lives their life with a mission behind it, then this film has the ability to get really out there into the world.

Are you taking it on the road? Are you going to go visit the running communities and do screenings? I'm exhausted. I don't have Fiona's stamina. I'm already working on another movie. So I mean this woman who, who can't even really run. Yeah. Um, Fiona, uh, how can people, I mean, you're the portrayal of you in the movie and the work that you do, it's inspiring. And it demonstrates a level of dedication to a cause that we don't typically see in our lives. It's really incredible, the love and the dedication and the devotion that you have to the things that are important to you.

And so when you see this movie, if people are listening to this, you'll know what I'm talking about. And I'm sure there's a lot of people out there who would like to support you, who would like to help you, who would like to lift you up. So for those people, where can they go? How can they help? How can they contribute? We've got a website called towerhillstables.org. And they can get details on there about how to donate and things like that. But the main thing I want from my life, honestly, obviously I need security.

I don't want any money from anyone in terms of, for me, it's everything we've ever had at the sanctuary goes directly to the animals. My partner is only just, when he took early retirement, to actually stay at the sanctuary and look after the animals when I'm away a little bit more. The main thing people can do is, if they want to help financially, that's great,

because I don't want money, but the vets and the feed merchants and everybody else do want vast sums of money to make this happen. The most thing is that they can be the best vegan they can be and go out there and promote veganism. That's what my life is more about now, just making the world see what I can see. And if they want to help through the sanctuary that's amazing and where can they go to do that?

It's at the main Tower Hill Stables page like a donate options, it's not just like donate money but it's time and raise awareness and do little fundraisers and things like that, there's loads of things that people can do, it's not just necessarily send money, obviously money is fantastic

because I've constantly got people beating my doors to get money. You know, feed merchants, forage merchants, you're always listening on the television. You know, we've had a bit of hot weather in the UK and suddenly all forage is going to be short all winter and it's going to be about 300 pounds a bale of hay and, you know, animals are going to have to be culled.

So it's like, oh no, that's going to be a disaster. But yeah, through the website is the best place and if anybody contacts me i mean i'm always you know there and through my mails and they want to ask you know can we do a little fundraiser for you or people do all sorts of things like cake bakes and sponsored silencers and name the teddy you know lots of things that innovative ways and um you know and just spread the word about the sanctuary because there might be other people out there that want to help that's the main thing that can do i'm not that good at asking for things from people to be honest with you i'm asking for you yeah thank you and what do you what what what kind of crazy world record are

you chasing next well um what i'm going to do is i'm doing the atacama crossing i thought i'll just go back to the atacama desert and do week stage why not why not and then after that because i'll be in pretty good shape probably break the world record for the fastest um woman to run a marathon in my cow suit because i can do that in the uk because it'll be the autumn and you get more interest and then run a championship qualifying for london so that's got just run a sub three marathon but that'll be quite good in a cow suit because it's quite quite a novelty thing and then run a championship qualifying for London. So I've just got to run a sub-three marathon. But that would be quite good in a cow suit because it would be quite a novelty thing. And then I go back to the marathon to Sable next year, hopefully with my new shoes and they don't fall to pieces on me

and I can actually hit it hard or harder. And if people want to check out your shoes, where can they find out more about that? They're at Will's Vegan Shoes. If you look at Will's Vegan Shoes, they will design these after the terrible pl're at Will's Vegan Shoes. If you look at Will's Vegan Shoes, they're Will designed these after the terrible plight of what happened in the desert. And they are actually really,

really good for trail running. They're really robust. I reckon I've got about five Maris and DeSables in these. So don't tell Martin because I think I'm going back for the next five years. But yeah, these are really excellent.

You can find them at Will's Vegan Shoes in the UK. You can also find them on our website, the runningforgoodfilm.com. And the amazing thing about these shoes is that 30% of the sales goes directly to the sanctuary. Oh, that's cool. That's a great way for people. That's it. As far as I know, they're the world's first carbon neutral, sweatshop free, intentionally vegan trail running shoe. And then again,

30% of it goes to the animals directly. Yeah. Fiona, you need to hire this guy as your publicist. I made a whole movie about it. Right? See? Look what he's done for you. Keegan, let's wrap this up with, can you talk about what's next for you and what you're working on? Yeah, so I'm working on a new film called Hungry for Justice, which is a food justice documentary with my friend John Lewis, the badass vegan, who's a former guest on Ritual Podcast. And it follows John on this journey looking at the link between diet, disease, poverty, institutionalized racism, government corruption, and so much more. Because it's really John on this journey. He's originally from Ferguson, Missouri, which unfortunately has always been an impoverished

and violent community. And he's seen the disease that's rampant there. And so he's looking to answer this question. Why is it that Americans of color suffer from disproportionately higher rates of chronic disease, diabetes, heart disease, and cancer? And then once those people are diagnosed, why are they more likely to die from those diseases than Caucasian Americans? So it's a deep film looking at the role of institutionalized racism in medicine, the historical implication of the colonial diet, a Western diet that's been pushed on communities of color. But it does that through the lens of hip hop. So we're interviewing and highlighting

influential hip hop artists and R&B artists who are plant-based or vegan or talk about food consciousness because arguably hip hop is the most influential art form in human history. Hip hop artists wear, say, do, drive, eat, drink, and talk about influences the purchasing power of millions of people around the world. So when these people start talking about the importance of healthy eating, of veganism, of being conscious of what you put in your body,

they have the ability to truly change this world. So it's shaping up to be a really powerful film. We're about halfway through shooting and hope to have that out probably this time next year year trying to do a feature every year yeah awesome can i before you close it uh i want to thank you so much rich for all of your support of the film for all of our films that we've done um you have been so generous with your time to be narrator for the film which i feel incredibly indebted to you for, for doing this event tonight.

I think 98% of the people who are here would have shown up without a movie screening, just the fact that Rich Roll is doing it. And I really appreciate you all coming, but I feel it's so indebted to you for that. I'm so grateful to Chris Swan, to everybody at Sideshow who helped put on this event, to Jason. The fact that actually probably 80% of the people involved in making this movie, which is a very short list, are here tonight.

Can we give a shout out to Jason? He's the composer for the film. Yeah, Jason, stand up. So this is Jason Camiolo. He is the audio engineer for the podcast, but he's also the composer of the music in the film tonight. Which the score for the film is like the third character to me. It's Fiona, it's the desert, and then it's the music.

To Amon Stewart, who did the animations, all the maps. He's an extremely talented, big shout out to him. Sasha Perry, my co-editor, who unfortunately had to dip out early. Jim Greenbaum, who's one of our executive producers, incredible guy. Greg Anzalone, who unfortunately can't be here tonight. Incredible supporter, unbelievable,

bent over backwards to promote this film. There's so many people but again I just feel so thankful to you Rich for using your platform to highlight people's stories. You again give voice to so many people who don't have

a larger voice and I'm just deeply appreciative and I think everybody else here who's a fan of the show is deeply appreciative for the work you do well I appreciate that it's an honor and a privilege to be able to share a message as potent and powerful as the message that both of you are putting out in the world so thank you for having a message and allowing me to share it uh and i think that's it and we did it how do you feel fiona how you feel you ready to go to a restaurant it's past your bedtime right well that's my bed yeah relieved and grateful and thankful and

humble and it's just surreal surreal to me to me. Anybody who'd even want to come and spend time looking at this. It really is. You know? Yeah. Yes. Alright, let's hear it for Fiona and for Keegan

and for everybody who's here tonight who supported or helped create this beautiful movie. Support this movie. Tell your friends. Share it on beautiful movie. Support this movie. Tell your friends. Share it on social media. Support independent cinema. And I am eager to do more live events,

and hopefully I will be doing more of this kind of stuff. So I'll let you guys know, and I really appreciate everybody who came out tonight on a weeknight to spend some time with us. So thanks to all of you for coming. Peace. Peace, you said. Take us out. Plants. We're done.

How awesome was that? Did you guys enjoy that? I just thought layering in all of that beautiful music and audio from the movie itself elevated what was already a super cool, extraordinary conversation and just took it to the next level. So, Jason, you did a great job on that edit, and we're already laying the tracks to not only do more live events,

but also do more dynamic podcast edits, such as what you heard today, when the show would be well-served by doing so. Do me a favor, hit Jason up on Twitter or Instagram at Jason Camiolo and let him know what you thought of his mad edits. Running for Good is available everywhere beginning October 11th on Vimeo, as I mentioned in the intro. Tell one, tell all, but if you jump on it quick, you can screen it for free

by going to runningforgoodfilm.com between October 11 and 14, the first four days of the film's release, and using the code FREE at checkout, and voila, you can watch gratis. You can find the movie on Instagram at runningforgood underscore film, and you can track Fiona down at fionaoaksfoundation.co.uk. She's marathonfiend on Twitter and oaks.fiona on

Instagram. All of this and tons more info, links, and resources can be found on the episode page at richroll.com. And don't forget to check out the YouTube version of what you just listened to at youtube.com forward slash richroll. It's got excerpts from the movie in it. It's really beautiful. And hit that subscribe button. If you would like to support my work, please just subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts or on whatever platform you enjoy this content. Share it with your friends on social media,

on Instagram, wherever you like to hang out. And I greatly appreciate it. I want to thank everybody who helped put on the show today. Jason Camiolo, again, for audio engineering. He was live at the event, so he captured the audio live at the screening. Production, show notes, interstitial music, compiling, composing the score to the movie,

all kinds of things that Jason does. Blake Curtis and Margo Lubin, they're responsible for all the graphic assets, all the video and the editing that goes into the show on YouTube and in the graphic assets that I use on social media. And theme music, as always, by Analema. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention DK, my man David Kahnhan doing a great job with those sponsor relationships in any event thanks for the love you guys see you back here in a couple days with another great episode it's going to be with my friend and filmmaker sasha jervasi two filmmaker podcasts back to back as well as that dreamy movie star jamie dornan. It's the first time I've had a straight up movie star on the podcast, so that's exciting.

And they're dropping in to talk about their new movie, My Dinner with Irvay, which is premiering on HBO October 20th. This one is bananas. Until then, be well, live well, love more, and walk with grace. Thank you.