The Rich Roll Podcast - François D'haene: The Ultra Spirit on Competition, Winemaking & Running Mountains

Episode Date: October 10, 2022

Meet François D’Haene. One of the greatest (some say the greatest) ultra-distance trail runners in the world, French superstar François is a former physiotherapist turned winemaker who has collected 36 victories and 51 podiums across some of the most prestigious and challenging races in the world. His palmarès include taking victory at UTMB an astonishing four times, a record only recently matched by Kílian Jornet this year. In 2017, François clocked the fastest-ever traverse of the 210-mile John Muir Trail. And in 2021, he won the Hardrock 100, one of the most difficult trail ultras, breaking the overall record previously held by Jornet. Beyond the glow of ultra superstardom, François keeps things simple—a lifestyle that prioritizes his family as a dad to three. And an approach to sustained excellence that values community, connection, and nature over race results and rewards. It’s this disposition—a rare balance many athletes of his caliber struggle to master—that I find most compelling. And it’s the focus of today’s fascinating exploration. Today we explore the elements of François’ mastery. We parse his humble and grounded approach to craft—and how this mindset has contributed to sustained success and career longevity at the highest level of sport. In addition, we discuss the principles that drive him, the details of his training regimen, the allure of nature, advice for tackling your first ultra, and many other topics. But more than anything, this is a conversation about the tension between the rigors of pursuing mastery and the value of important life experiences beyond the parameters of sport. Read: Show notes. I should say up front that François’ French accent can be a bit thick at times, but if you listen closely and aren’t tempted to increase the playback speed, you should be able to follow him just fine. Captions are available on YouTube if you want to capture every word. Note: this conversation was recorded on June 30, 2022. On July 15, 2022, François placed 2nd at the Hardrock 100, 14+ minutes behind Kílian Jornet. I thoroughly enjoyed my time with François—may this exchange leave you equally enriched. Peace + Plants, Rich

If you achieve your dream too fast, then okay, you can have some other dream, but if it's a big dream, no matter if it takes you one year, two years, three years, five years, it's maybe a better dream if it takes a long time to achieve it. I think it's very important to have this kind of progression, to have different tastes, to have different history, to take time to meet the people, to discover yourself. On 101 miles, no matter the times, you just want to finish it. For the first runner to the last runner, it's the same goal. It's just to achieve this adventure and this journey.

And it's so hard and so interesting to do. But it's not impossible because it could be just walking, just running. And if you go slowly, I'm sure it's not impossible because it could be just walking, just running. And if you go slowly, I'm sure it's possible. But you have to be really passionate about that. And you have to know why you do that. Running 100 miles, it must be something that you feel in your heart and you are really motivated about that. Because, of course, it will be hard.

But if you know why you are here if it's a dream i'm sure it's possible to do it the rich roll podcast hey everybody welcome to the podcast My guest today is one of the greatest, some say the greatest, ultra-distance trail runners in the world. His name is Francois Den. And although that name may not be as ubiquitous as Killian Jornet's, at least outside the insular ultra world, make no mistake. This man who calls the Alps home is just an absolute beast. Among his countless achievements, Francois has won the UTMB,

the world's most prestigious trail ultra, a record four times, and that record was only recently matched by Killian this year, setting course records twice along the way. In 2017, Francois clocked the fastest ever traverse of the 210 mile John Muir Trail. And in 2021, Francois won the Hard Rock 100,

one of, if not the most difficult trail ultras in the world, breaking the overall record previously held by Killian. Beyond his career as a professional athlete, Francois is a physiotherapist. He's a family man and father of three, as well as a winemaker. And a couple of months ago, I had the privilege to meet, to hang out with, and host a live conversation with Francois in Boulder, Colorado. It was part of an event hosted by Solomon, the sponsor, We Both Share, at Runner's Roost, a run apparel retailer in Boulder, followed by the next day,

a podcast conversation that you are now about to enjoy, which is captured in both audio and also on video, which you can find on YouTube. And it's all coming up in a sec, but first. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment.

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first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option his mastery of ultra running, what really strikes me most about Francois is his very low key, humble and grounded approach to his craft and how he manages to strike a truly healthy balance between the rigors of pursuing that mastery and the importance of enjoying life, enjoying family, community, and many other interests outside of sports. In addition to covering his path to excellence, we discuss the principles

that drive his peak performance longevity. We talk about the details of his training regimen, the allure of nature, advice for tackling your first ultra, and many other topics. I should say upfront that Francois' French accent can be a bit thick at times, but if you listen closely, pay attention,

and aren't tempted to increase the playback speed, you should be able to follow him just fine. But captions are available on YouTube at youtube.com forward slash richroll if you want to make sure to catch every word. So with that, please enjoy my conversation with Francois Dead. Thank you for doing this. It's so nice to meet you. I can't wait to learn about your life.

I'm excited to talk to you. And here we are in a running store in Boulder, Colorado, doing this podcast, Old School on the Road. And yeah, how are you doing today? How are you feeling? How are you doing today? How are you feeling? How are you getting your head straight for the big Hard Rock 100? Yes, all of that.

I'm so happy to be there, to make it to the US again. I really enjoy this part of the season and the year. And since two years, I'm so happy to build my season until June, where I moved to Colorado. And yeah, this year will be special for sure too.

And already today, because I'm so happy to discuss with you. I follow a bit your life and your different podcasts, and it's always interesting to have this kind of different approach of running. And it's amazing to be there to discuss with you. I appreciate that. And kind of reflecting on your life and your career, obviously you're one of the greatest of all time in trail running for UTMB wins.

You won Hard Rock last year, set the record. You're going into Hard Rock again, coming up in a very short period of time here. And my sense is that you're very celebrated in Europe, but that in the United States or in North America, perhaps less so. So I have a very specific agenda for this podcast, which is to help raise awareness of your amazing talents and career. It used to be.

No, well, it's an interesting moment because I think that the interest in trail running and adventure racing is on the rise, very much so. People are getting into it and it's just growing at an explosive rate right now. And so I think that, you know, North America is very primed to learn more about your life and, you know, how you've been able to do the things that you do. Yeah, it's, yeah, it's, I'm so happy to discuss about that, But yeah, it's a bit party specific because there's always a comparison

between Europe and North America. And everybody thinks in US and Europe, everybody thinks it's totally different. Traveling in US is totally different than traveling in Europe or in France. And for me, not at all. We are just happy to be in the mountain and you have some very nice and specific mountain here and in France too, in Europe too.

So for me, it's just about being passionate to spend some long days in the mountain and to listen about yourself, to try to be the better part of you in the mountain for some long days. So, yeah, for me it's not being an American runner or being a European runner, it's just being a mountain runner.

And that's why I'm so happy to discuss with American runner and to share my experience with them because it's always interesting and funny to see a bit the media and how the people can discuss about that. That seems like maybe that's an American thing. Like here in America, we're thinking, oh, we have a certain way of training, but what are those guys over there doing?

In the Alps, they're living in small villages and they're just going out, you know, way up into high elevation every single day. And perhaps, you know, way up into high elevation every single day. And perhaps, you know, because we don't have access to those types of mountains, that there's something to your lifestyle or your kind of relationship with training that is very different than the way that the Americans approach it. And I've heard you say, like, you kind of disabuse people of this notion. You're like, no, it's not actually that different.

But your friend Jim Walmsley, you know, seems to be under that impression, which is why he moved to France, feeling like that is the missing ingredient in his ability to, you know, kind of win UTMB. Like he had to go and immerse himself in that culture and that lifestyle. We'll see.

But no, I think, yeah yeah i think it could be interesting to discuss with him but i think it's not just about the immersion in a french uh alp and french mountain who will make the difference it's maybe more his approach of the event more his approach of his training and i'm sure he can he can do the same training in u.s and have the same training in the US and have the same approach if it takes time for that. But I think in Flagstaff, it's very warm. It's a bit more flat than in France. But I'm sure that in Silverton, he can train even

better than in France for a race like UTMB. But for me, it's very, very interesting. It's very nice to have him just 200 meters from the house. So we can share some very good training and moment and I really appreciate him. But as the American runner

it's always nice to share our culture to share some very good moment and I try to discover a bit more the US culture because I like it and they like European culture because I think it's something like European culture because I think it's

something like normal that we are always more interesting about what is different from what we are useful. And for me, it's very interesting to discuss with American Runner. I was there, I think, the first time in 2012. But since 10 years now, I'm always, always so happy to come back in the U.S. because I always learned some different things. And I'm always impressed about how big this country is and everything. And the trail in Europe and France, some of the longest trails, it's 100 miles.

And I was like four years ago at the beginning of the Pacific Crest Trail. It's 4,500 k. It's just unbelievable. So for me, it's amazing to be there. Yeah. I think, you know, correct me if I'm wrong. The sense is that in the United States, people who are trying to train at a certain level kind of complicate things or get really into data and spreadsheets

and get very much up in their head about how to approach these races. Whereas a European sensibility is more like, we live in these small villages, we keep our lives are very, kind of less complex in that regard. And we keep things like kind of very basic. And I do feel like there's some shared DNA with somebody like Killian who, you know, will tell you like,

it's just about your relationship with nature and it's about being outdoors and the humility and the experience of, you know, pushing your body and just being alone with the majesty of the mountains, which is a different relationship, I think, to performance than the kind of American mindset. Yeah, yeah, you're right, I think, but it's, yeah, it's, yes, it's not all the European are like that, not all the American are like that too,

but I think it's more about an ultra approach because I think when it's more short distance it could be totally different but on ultra distance the approach I think must be different and I cannot speak for Kilian but I think it's a bit same as me it's not

that we okay we want to be a top runner in ultra mountain and so we have to do that now we did that and because of that maybe we became some good ultra runner but it's it's totally different that i want to become a good ultra runner so i have to do that anyway i do that so maybe i can become a good ultra runner or not but anyway we want to spend some long day in the mountain we want to be there we want to spend some long day in the mountain. We want to be there. We want to train like that. We want to have this kind of life. And just

I think the level of performance is just a consequence of our life. And I can think that the approach of some American runners may be a bit different. I would like to win UTMB maybe

one day or something like that. So I have to train like that. I have to do that. I have to do that. And it's maybe a bit different oh i would like to to win utmb maybe one day or something like that so i have to train like that i have to do that i have to do that and it's not it's not i think the same the same way the beginning must be okay i i'd like i would like to be in the mountain i would like to experience myself i would like to push my limits to discover that kind of trail of that kind of mountain and then the consequence will be that because of that life, because of that training, you will be in front of the scene. And for short distance, I think it's not the same thing.

Okay, I want to be a performer on short distance in Golden Train, whatever you want. Okay, so I have to focus on my training. I have to be professional. I have to do that, that, that. And then you have the result. But on ultra, I think it's too many things. It's okay, it's the training, I have to be professional, I have to do that, that, that, and then you have the result. But on ultra, I think it's too many things.

It's the training, it's the performance, it's the body, but first it's the mentality, it's the approach, it's how you train, and I know well, I think Courtney Walter, you registered some podcast with her, and I think

she's one of those who have this kind of approach. She don't take care about the result of the race. I think what she likes is to be out in the mountain to spend some long day and then if she can make some race, she's happy

and finally the result is just the consequence of what she did all along the year. She don't focus on one race or another race. If it's not working on one race, okay, it's not good. But no worry, she has another race, another plan. And anyway, she's so happy to train for that. So it's not the same approach. And I try to discuss a lot with Jim about that

because if his approach is, okay, I would like to be the first American runner to win UTMB, pressure is really high. I hope he will be able to do that because it's an amazing runner and he's very, very good. But the approach is, it's hard for

me. I think if I have that kind of approach, it's impossible for me to win a race. Right, right, right. So essentially what you're saying is in the long run, especially with these longer distance mountain races, achieving goals only comes as a consequence of the lifestyle that you live, as opposed to being very kind of driven

towards a specific result. And I've heard you say, I think it was with respect to, maybe it was UTMB last year, like the question was like, how do you shoulder the pressure of going into UTMB? Like you've won three times, can you do it again? You know, that must be overwhelming.

And you said something like, well, if I win, great, but if I don't, you know, I'll take my kids to, you know, go do something and I have a whole life outside of this. And that was what kind of made me think of the difference in sensibility of kind of a European mindset versus an American mindset. Whereas the American would be devastated if they lost

and they're like, they're clenching their fists and trying to drive kind of will a certain result. So it's like the difference between self-will versus like being in the allowing, right? Like if I'm living my lifestyle, I'm allowing the result to unfold that is meant to be as a result of the decisions that I've made about how I live my life.

Yeah, it's even more easy for me to say that when you want it three times. Right. Sure. Okay, you don't have pressure, but you want it three times. for me to say that when you won it three times. Sure. You don't have pressure, but you won it three times. It's easy to say that. Sure, but for me, even the first time, if I arrive at the start line with this kind of pressure,

I'm sure I won't be able to finish because I want to protect myself. As the start line, I don't want to have this kind of pressure. I'm at the start line. I have a very good training. I have two very good months. I'm't want to have this kind of pressure so I'm at the start line and say okay I have a very good training I have two very good months and I'm so happy to be there if I can win, if I can

finish two on the podium whatever, it's so good so I will be so happy but if not it's okay, it's just a sport it's just a pleasure and my life will continue and I will have some other possibility and some other chance but for me it's take like 20 years maybe to arrive at the start line with this position and without any pressure and and it's not easy every

day every day you have to work on yourself and to say it again and that's why i don't want to go back like each year on the same race like for me this year, going back to Hard Rock 100 again, just one year after where you finish first, when you break the record, I was not expecting that. Last year I was thinking, okay, it's just an experience for me. Next year I will come back and I will do it better.

But last year I finished and I said, how can I do it better? So this year you came back with a bit of pressure because even for yourself you cannot say, okay, I will be better? So this year you came back with a bit of pressure because even for yourself, you cannot say, okay, I will be there just to try to finish. Come on, last year you win, you broke the record, you are not just here to finish.

So for me, this year it's a bit more pressure, but that's why I try to have another approach to say, okay, I'm here. Last year it was just incredible, I was lucky, so I'm here again. to say, okay, I'm here. Last year, it was just incredible. I was lucky, so I'm here again. So it's so good.

I'm so lucky too. So it's another way. It's another race. There's some other runners. So yes, I would like just to finish it. Just 160 runners at the start line. So I'm so lucky to be there. There's a huge community of ultra-try runners at the start line, so I'm so lucky to be there. There's a huge community of ultra-tri-runners in the U.S. It's just like a family.

Everybody is so happy to meet each other. Even tonight in Boulder, I think it would be so nice to have a common event. For me, I say, please enjoy it and don't put your pressure on yourself. With that way, I'm sure the race will be good. Right. It's such a healthy strategy and one that has longevity to it, right?

Because you're releasing yourself from carrying that burden. It's like confidence in the preparation, gratitude for just being able to be there and be healthy and participate, gratitude for just being able to be there and be healthy and participate. And also kind of a healthy respect for all the variables that you don't control, the weather and other people and all that kind of stuff, right? Like the longer the race, the less control you actually have. You just have, you know, the preparation that you endure just to get there. And, you know, I was listening to your conversation with Dylan Bowman. You guys were talking about Hard Rock last year and how you were kind of running near each other and realizing that you were like way ahead,

the record that Killian had set and thinking, maybe perhaps we've made a terrible error. Exactly. And it all worked out, but then thinking, well, how can I do better this year? And saying, well, maybe I don't have to worry about that. I'm just here to experience the community and to do my best.

And I think the community piece is also really interesting. I know that last year was the first running of Hard Rock in three years because of COVID and also weather conditions prior to that. But you had come to Silverton in 2019, nonetheless to engage with the community, train on the course and kind of, now you've become kind of part of that community

that you're returning to tomorrow. Yeah, exactly. It was very nice in 2019 to be able to be there. And we have some very good moments and we discover the race without any pressure with each other. It was very, very interesting. There's a lot of snow, so it was very interesting to play in the snow because people like Jim, they just learned how to run on the snow four years ago.

So it was very interesting for me to discuss about that with them. And yeah, it it was very interesting for me to discuss about that with them. And yeah, it's it would be very interesting and it's not a good thing that Dylan Bowman won't race this year because that's here we have an incredible day. Even for him, I think he

was not expecting to run so fast at that pace and yes, during all the race we were thinking maybe we are too fast. But anyway, we have a very good day. So we continue. Do you think about the other competitors? I texted Dylan yesterday and I said,

I'm going to be talking to Francois, like what would be interesting for me to explore with him that is something I can't Google or find out online. And he's like, I'm so fascinated by Francois' relationship with competition.

And we've already kind of covered a little bit of your sensibility with that, but you seem so, it's really not about like what anyone else is doing, right? Like in the longer the race is, the less it is about some other performer. It's just about your relationship with you and the terrain. Yeah, it's exactly that. I don't take care about the other runner

even before the race, even normally during the race, but I'm a bit of a competitor. So when I'm during the race, I really like and enjoy to play with the other runner, but it's not my main goal for sure. Do you think about like, oh, I know this runner uses this strategy,

so I have to look out for that, or do you not pay attention to any of that? No, I know that, and I play with that, and you have time to think during 24 hours, so you can think, okay, maybe this runner is going too fast because I know him, so I don't have to take care about that, but you play with that

but your main focus must be on you otherwise I think it's too hard on ultra trial and that's why I really like ultra trial running it's totally different from the other distance I think even since 100k now and even more I think less than

like western states time for gym it's around like 14, I think less than Western States time, for gym, it's around 14 hours, I think. I think more than 14 hours, it's another world. So less than 14 hours, I think now competitors are well-experienced, they train for that, they are very conditioned for that. So I think less than 14 hours hours it's more like athletics and race more than 14 16 hours I think it's it's another world and more than 20 hours it's again something else so I think it's it's very important to have a different approach and that's why I

I think I'm still there after like my first long distance was 2006, I think. So it's 12 years ago. And normally you cannot make such a long career in high performance in sport. But if I'm still there, it's maybe because this is a sport totally different and where experience helps you a lot and approach helps you a lot. And yes, that's why I think I still continue to progress even if now I'm maybe too old for that. No, no, no.

But I really enjoy that. And I think the experience is something just interesting in ultra. Yeah, I mean, there is a long history in ultra running where somebody will burst onto the scene and they'll have unbelievable performances for maybe two years, three years. And then whether it's over training or burnout or whatever it is, they're unable to ever kind of match that level again. Like you don't see very many people who have longevity in their careers. Yeah. It's so sad for me. And that's

why I have this kind of approach and I try to push that kind of approach with the media because I'm so sad when I saw some runner just say, okay, I will try to do six or seven ultra try in a year or even four ultra try in a year or even in France, I have some amazing runners that say, okay, I would like

to do like a UTMB and Diagonale de Fou and some other race. And now I think it's too much maybe it could be one year like last year I tried to running back to back Hard Rock 100 and UTMB it's only 6 weeks but it was my only goal for

the year and I prepared that one since 3 years and I run since 25 years so it's not just ok you do it last year next year you can do now now it's something very special and i i won't do it again this year and i think for kian he will try to do it this year and even sales you know at the middle but it's kian he runs since since he was born yeah so it's it's not not everybody can do that because uh mustn't do that. I think top marathoners, they did two races in a year,

and it's two hours. And for us, it's 24 hours. So how can we do more than two races? And I see so many, many runners, even American runners. When I started in 2012, they were there, and now it's so hard for them. I think about Rob Krah or some people, Jeff Rose or some people like that,

even Anton, they race, and maybe sometimes too much, and then it was too hard to recover. And they were so good, and I think maybe they get overtrained or too much pressure or something like that, and then it's too hard for the body to come back. So we have to be really, really, really relaxed about that.

And we discuss a lot with Jim about that. And this year, that's why he did a race in April, and then he said, okay, now I just focus on UTMB, and maybe it will be my season. I think it's a very good approach, and I like it because you will be my season I think ah it's a very good approach and I like it because you will be very fresh and I'm sure that next year you will be there again and this is the most important for me winning a race it's important but be able to to run again in five

years I think it's the most important thing for us and for our body yeah sure I mean I think that the the sport is maturing in terms of how people are understanding training and performance. Those runners that you mentioned, and even the generation prior to that, like very little was known because people were pushing the boundaries of the distances that anybody thought humans could even run to begin with. And so of course the mentality is like, well, if we can do that, let's train more, let's train more. And then suddenly all of these people

are kind of falling off the wayside. But we saw Anton come back after that long period of absence. So now it's like, oh, well, if you were one of those people, maybe you can rebuild in a new and different way. It was so nice last year to see him again. And I chatted with him yesterday

because I know that he lives not so far from there and he's a bit focused on bicycle. He's on Instagram riding his bike everywhere. He will do 600 miles on Friday or Thursday. Okay. But yeah, it was so nice to see him again. And yeah, Anton or even Joe Grant, I'm sure I will see him in a rock in two days.

It's so nice to continue to discuss with them. Every year, I'm so happy to meet Anna Frost. And she was here even before me in the tri-running community. And it's so nice to see that kind of people. Okay, they are so happy about their performance and about their career and which race that they were able to win, but they are even more happy to be still there and still able to run.

And if you discuss with them, I'm sure 100% that they will say the most important thing is just to be able to be again in the mountain today, to be able to have some long day and to share some nice run with the people in the community. It's even more important than winning that race or the race or pushing too much for that. Because in 20 years, what will you remember?

I was able to do that, but now I don't want to run anymore. I don't want to be in the mountain. I'm not passionate about that. Well, okay, I did that, but I'm still there and I'm still so happy and so passionate to do that. And for me, it's the most important thing that, okay. Remaining joyful about the whole experience. I just want to be there in five or ten years with my

kids and to say, okay, I'm so happy to share with you this loop around Mont Blanc. You know, kids, I was there in Silverton like 20 years ago, and now I'm still there with you, and I'm able to make a loop around Night Rock. I think it's my biggest

dream, actually, even more than winning again a race. It's just to be there in 10 years and to say, okay, I'm there and I can share it with you. It's wow. This is for me the most important thing. That's all fine. But come on, let's get honest here. I don't want to make you uncomfortable,

but like four UTMB wins. I mean, there's gotta be a killer under the surface there. Like what, why are you so much better than everyone else? What is the secret weapon? Like, what are you doing that others aren't doing? Or how are you, you know, built physiologically so that you are so exceptional at this sport? I, I'm not know. I'm so passionate

when you are at the start line. If you build like we speak earlier, when you are at the start line, you don't feel the pressure. You just feel the power just to say, wow, I'm here. I've waited that moment since

two years and I'm here. Everybody says, oh, you can do one or two nights without sleeping. I said, how can I sleep? I waited that moment since two years. I'm so excited. I'm so happy to be there. And then it's like you have rings. So you can fly over the mountain and I'm so happy.

And then if the race goes like you want, then you're okay. It would be sunset, sunrise. There would be this pass. It's so unbelievable. And then you can feel your sensation. You can feel your training. You can feel what you built since 10 years, your strategy about food, about that lamp,

about equipment, about material, about family, about everything. There's a lot of things. And when everything match wow then you feel okay today i'm i'm perfect day and you don't feel it and even like i think last year in hard work i was even more fast at the end at the beginning just because i was wow today it's just so incredible and i remember with dakota jones we play in the he pays me, he paced me on the last part and we just play and we run all the time. I said, okay, I'm even faster than at the beginning.

It's just crazy and no matter if it's 10, 20, 25 hours, you're just happy and then you can feel that you are just flying and it's just a very good moment. And yeah, this is what I try to, this kind of sense of feelings I try to have on a race. Right, your emotional relationship to the whole thing. But as somebody, you have a background in physiotherapy, right?

So from like a biological perspective or a training perspective, like are you doing things in training that you think others aren't? Or is there something about the way that you're built, like Killian has a crazy VO2 max, or is there something that makes you extra well-suited to this type of sport? Or do you think it's just because you've been doing it for a long time? And

like, I don't know, like I'm trying to wrap my head around like what, I'm sure there are other people that participate in these races who are very grateful to be there, right. And have a love for the mountains. So there is something different going on with you, is there not? No, it's true. I'm trying to make you blush. If I have a scientific approach, it's true that, yes, I cannot complain about my performance and about my body.

But I think I have a totally different approach than Kian. I think Kian is a bit different because he tries to perform on short distance and long distance. And I think it's not a secret that Kian has incredible capacity and ability in terms of heart and breath and everything. Right, at the very high level of exertion.

And me, I practice like athleticism, like 3000 steeplechase when I was young or cross country. And I was not bad, but I was not at the top level. And I think, okay, I can run fast, but I was not very, very good and not the top French performer. But I think it was enough for ultra-trial distance. And so I'm not,

I don't train just for ultra-trial distance because during winter I make some intensity and something like that. Not as Kylian, but more than 90% of people which practice only ultra-trial in France or even in Europe or US, I think. So I think during winter I work a lot on my physiology and on intensity and something like that.

So I think it's hard to compare to Kian because it's something different. But if I compare some to the other long distance or ultra distance runner, I think on short distance, I could be better than them. But what I like is the same approach as them. It's spent some long day in the mountains,

even more. So I think I can have the same endurance trainings and them but if i want to push i can push a bit higher than them so it was interesting like last year in utmb i think we have the same background with the five or six other runner but because we play too much with jim wamsley i was just so destroyed after 80k and in the descent it was hard for me to go fast but I know that if I want to push in each ascent

I can make like 4 or 5 minutes faster than the other so it was so comfortable for me not comfortable because painful but it was very interesting for me to say even if I lose 3 minutes in each descent it's not so bad because I can easily put them 5 But it was very interesting for me to say, okay, even if I lose three minutes in each descent,

it's not so bad because I can easily put them five or four minutes in each ascent. So I think for me, it's very interesting to have this background just to know that, okay, in ultra distance, I may be like the other, but if I want to push, I can push a bit more. You have that extra gear. So in your back pocket, you have the confidence to know, like, it's fine, I'm running with you right now because when we get to that grade up there, I'm going to put you in the dust.

I can go. So let's talk about the training a little bit. What is the structure to it? What is the philosophy of the day-in, day-out approach? Walk us through what that looks like. Yeah, so I try to have a long-term approach on my training and on my race and on my career. So I don't have like a day-to-day running.

I don't like to have any routine and I can't because I built my life like totally different than a normal runner or professional runner because you know what it means to have some kids. But with three kids, I have now nine, seven, and three years old. It's amazing you have time to do anything. I want to be there with them.

And with my wife, we want to have some common project about the wine, about creating an event, about different things so it's what I want it's not just okay you can just be a professional yes if I want I can be a professional runner and if I don't

want any kids we can make these shows but we don't want that, we want to have a normal life, a social life we want to have kids, a family story. We want to have a real job and to spend some time with that dog then. Okay, I know that. So I have to train when I have time.

And I know that, yes, before I work, I will have to spend some long days in the mountains. So that's why I'm here like two weeks before the race. That's why I will live in Reunion Island like'm here like two weeks before the race that's why I will live in Rhenian Island like two weeks and a half before the race because I have to race to beat myself I have to focus more on my training but yes I just know that okay two months before a long race you have to spend more long day in the mountain you have to train specifically for for each or each race like for hard work i i know that's one of the most important thing is altitude training so i i don't run that

much the last two months but i spend a lot of time in high mountain so it was in skimo it was in climbing it was something like that and i think if I compare to last year, I run even less, but I spend more time in high altitude. So I think it's maybe a good thing for hard work. And if I have to go to Reunion Island at the end of the year, I know that it's totally different. And I will have to focus more like on decent training, something like that. There's a lot of stairs in that island,

so I have to work with big steps or something like that. And I try to think like six months or five months before the race, okay, what will be specific on that race? And then every day, every night, every training, you think about that. Okay, what I'm actually doing, it's important for next race or it's no matter. So I try, you think about that. Okay, what I'm actually doing, it's important for next race or it's no matter, so I try to not do that.

Right, right. And yes, I try to respect a lot the season and the condition in the mountains. So that's why I choose that kind of season, actually, that's starting my running season with Hard Rock 100. It's just perfect for me because there's a lot of snow from like December to May where I live. So it's hard to be ready for a race in April or May

because it means that you have to take the car to go in the valley to train. And this is not what I love. What I love is running from my door or skiing from my door. So it's easier for me to practice some skimo from January to May. And I think it's a very, very good training

for endurance training and for ultra strategy for summer. Then you have to back on running slowly and progressively. And I have all the months of April, May, and June to back on running slowly and progressively. And I have all the months of April, May, and June to back on running progressively, so it's just perfect for a race like mid-July. So that's why I choose that kind of strategy

since three to four years now, just because I know, okay, if I have to train in March and running, it will be hard to get the motivation and mentality. So that's why I try to adapt my strategy like that and to think like a long time ago with my wife, with my friends, with my partner,

about my calendar to say, okay, I will do it next year. So I have to focus mid-July, I have to focus mid-October, so I have to plan everything around that. So even about the product development, the family events, the socials, the holidays, everything, I try to plan it in November and December. And then it's a raise year to train and everything because with my family, we know

with the kids and family since last year, since one year ago. You can plan way ahead. It's not like if I say to them one week ago, it would be so hard for them. But no, since one year we prepared that, since one year we know that it will be hard for them and for me to be without each other during three weeks. So we have to plan some strategies. They will visit some friends some families they will have some stage they will have some different thing i will i will prepare many

things so it's easier and we wait that moment finally and we will be so happy to meet each other in three weeks so it just if if you plan it since one year or even more, it's so easy. But if you don't say it to your people, you're like, okay. See you later. In one month, I have my biggest race of my life. And bye-bye. It's so hard. So this is my, it's not like, I don't know if I answer very well to your question.

It's not my strategic of training, but planning things like that, I think it's a key point of the training because then you just have to say, okay, we keep some free time for that. We plan this event or this event and this event. And finally, your training is nearly done like that because now I'm here two weeks and a half before hard work.

I finish all my product development. I'm just without family. I just have time for me. What will you do when you are in the mountain? Just with free time for you, it's training. It's easy to train. Okay, back to the show. There is something counterintuitive,

but kind of undeniable about having a full life outside of your life as an athlete. You know, you would think you would enhance your performance by living like a monk in a cabin alone and just waking up in the morning and going out and training all day with no distractions year round. And perhaps you could get a great performance in the short term.

But, you know, the more I speak to you, the more I realize how deeply you think about longevity. Like it's more about trying to be the best that you can be for the longest period of time. And in order to do that, you have to have diversity in your life. You can't be putting aside things that you want in your life for the sake of performance. So to have three kids, to have, you know, this full life where you're engaged in your community and, you community and your previous career as a winemaker, which I want to talk about. All of those things feel like they would detract from your performances,

but my sense is that all of those things ultimately enhance your performance. They fuel your life because you're a happy, grounded person with interests outside of just running yeah it's true but uh it's true too that you are more tired and it's not easy to train every day and some i'm actually it's it was a i have a very hard month of june and i discussed a lot with jim and say okay okay you don't have any kids he you're just in France for training, you have just to wake up, make coffee, and then thinking,

oh, where can I go today to train? And you wake up at six in the morning because baby's crying, then you have to take kids to school, then you have to have nothing made and partner and media to do. And then if you have time, you can go to train, but you have too many things to do.

Okay, it's too much. How can I perform like that? But on those things, you think about what you say. It's okay. This is my life. I choose that one. And it's helped me a lot.

So it's never easy to have this background and to have a... But I think for me, everybody is different. But for me, it was very important since the beginning and we discussed a lot of that with my wife to have a balanced life, to have this different pillar, to have a family, But for me, it was very important since the beginning. And we discussed a lot of that with my wife,

to have a balanced life, to have these different pillars. So, okay, the family, social, the job, the sport, everything. And sport is important. But for me, I try to never put it like the most important thing in my life. I always try to have some background to say, okay, it's just a pleasure, it's just a passion. And I think having kids and something for me was always more important than everything because if you focus too much on sport,

okay, one year, everything works. Okay, it's perfect, but if it's doing 10 years, then 10 years, you look beside you, you look around you, it's okay. Since 10 years, I focus on that and finally I don't have any kids and I don't build everything. For me, I look around you, it's okay. Since then, you know, I focus on that. And finally, I don't have any kids and I don't build everything. For me, I think it's-

Well, your whole sense of identity is wrapped up in your performances. Yeah, I think, yeah. Yeah, yeah. With respect to the training, I've heard you say something along the lines of, it's more important, like the frequency of your trainings

is more important than like the frequency of your trainings is more important than like the length of your trainings. Like there's this idea, if you're going to be an ultra runner, you got to go out and run for 12 hours a day, every single day. Right. And I think you've said like your longer runs are really kind of in the, you know, six to seven hour range. You'll go out for those longer days of, as you mentioned earlier, just being in the mountains, ski mo, or just, you know, kind of hiking or whatever it is to experience altitude. But in terms of the running, my sense is that you're careful not to overdo it and go into that kind of overtraining zone where you can get injured or burn out? I try to, but you always have some pain somewhere.

And I actually have some difficulty with some part of my body, but I try to make some cycling and to make different things. And I try to never push too much to be over-trained or injured. So yes, I try to do that. But yes, it's kind of part of my training too to say, okay, I wake up, my second kids, they wake up like eight times each night

until they are three years. So you can say, okay, I'm too tired and I cannot train. Or you can say, okay, I will train. But training when you're tired is kind of a good thing. But yes, I was thinking that. I was thinking, okay,

I'm so tired, but I have to train. But when you are in a neutral after 20 hours, what do you think? You are tired too. So if you never train when you are tired, you will never have this feeling. So I'm going to say, okay, I will train with less intensity, of course, maybe with less energy, of course, but I will train anyway, even if I'm tired, even if I drink too much the day before,

even if I made too much party, even if I eat too much, even if I just have my breakfast, okay, you have to test everything because in ultra, you will meet everything. And in ultra, what we said earlier, you can meet everything. And in ultra, what we said earlier, that you can plan everything, but you will have to adapt everything. Because this is why we made ultra.

If we know what will happen, we can make athletics, more cross-country or some loop. But no, we go in the mountain, in high mountain, just because we want to have some something different we we will have to adapt ourself and that's why i think my life maybe it's good for ultra distance because uh okay this morning we are in us uh we want to try a scramble scrambled eggs and bacon and everything, but then, okay, you will run, okay. But I won't have to wait three hours for running

and I have to train directly. So, okay, I feel heavy. Okay, I feel thirsty. Okay, I feel a bit tired about the jet lag. Okay, but if I have to wait that everything is correct to run, okay, I will run in one week. So, no, it's not good. So, okay, I will run in one week. So no, it's not good. So okay, yesterday we arrived.

We have a 24-hour day of traveling. But okay, I'm in Boulder. I'm so happy to be there. I would like to discover the Florida. So I go there for a two-hour run. For sure, I don't have the best feeling of my life. Even the worst feeling of my life during running, I sweat a lot. I don't have the best feeling of my life. Even the worst feeling of my life during running, I sweat a lot.

I don't have any power. This is the thing. This is the thing. And this is really good training, I think, for ultra. Because you have to adapt. You have to feel what's happening in your body, how you can answer and readapt and make things. And finally, I was able to run two hours.

And I think it's a good thing. But if your whole life is well planned to always be at the best possibility for your training, when you arrive in an ultra, you don't know how to do it. Right. You're missing the whole point. Yeah.

Of course, when you arrive in Courmayeur after 10 hours, middle of the night, of course, your legs are destroyed. Of course, you run 10 hours too fast with descent, ascent, and then it's middle of the night. Of course, you feel tired, and you don't know what's happened because you don't want to,

of course, because it's middle of the night. Nobody eats at the middle of the night. So you don't feel comfortable. But if your body was never in that position, you don't know how to do. But if your body was, okay, I remember I did that, or I have this same feeling, or okay, I can do it because I have the experience that I can.

Then you continue, and then you can be a better part of yourself and even won the race. But that's why I think my life is not finally so bad for ultra training. Maybe for athleticism and performance and short distance training, but for ultra. Every training session, you're combating an obstacle, right? Just to get out the door. Exactly. Yeah, that is a to get out the door. Exactly.

Yeah, that is a really interesting lens to look at it. How has your training evolved over the years? With every win or miss, all of these accomplishments, you're learning along the way. And I assume like refining, figuring out what works for you what doesn't did you do anything different this year leading up to Hard Rock versus leading up

to Hard Rock last year? Yeah of course I try to normally I never did a race from one year to the next year directly because you have too many elements of comparison and it's too hard for me and you put too much pressure but it's

a bit the game of the Hard Rock 100 when you want it then it's interesting to come back the year after because you went with the other way for the community I think it's very nice to come back and I'm so happy to be there again so I have to compose

with that but yes last year I feel that the altitude training it's something very important so that year I was really focused a bit more on that and I tried to build some project around Mont Blanc which is the highest mountain in Europe but the conditions were not so good this year because it was really dry. So I made some more rock climbing. We go to Switzerland and Italy. I climbed Serven. I don't know if you know this mountain,

but it's a very iconic mountain. And we spent more than 20 hours above 4,000 meters. And I did Mont Blanc in Schimo and I trained a lot like that. So I think about the altitude training I'm better than last year. But just about training I think

because it's a life and we tried to create an event with my wife for next September. It's the first edition so I was not thinking that it would take this amount of time to us. And so I don't have the time that I was thinking to have for training, just for running.

So I think I'm a bit less trained than last year in training and even more in descent. Because we enjoy to spend many times around this event and to discuss about that and we really want to make something good and something very linked with our values. So it was very important for us. It was one of our priorities these past two months. So I hope it will be okay and we still have

like 10 days for training. So I hope it will be okay but I think that I'm well trained on altitude

but less trained I think just in the running capacity. Right, got it. So yes, you have this new race that you

and your wife have created called Ultra Spirit Ultra Spirit which is coming up in early September, right? Which is exciting. new race that you and your wife have created called Ultra Spirit, Ultra Spirit, which is coming up in early September, right? Which is exciting. You're creating your own race.

Like it's a couple races between 25 and 50 kilometers in your region where you live. And this is a new kind of entrepreneurial journey. Prior to that, you were a wine maker, which I wanna get into, but like what inspired you to create your own race what's a bit like a consequence of why we stopped the winery and yes for us it was really important to it's not really a race it's more like an event i think

about ultra distance because we we were thinking okay, like in five years or 10 years, if we want to do something in the mountain, something organized in the mountain, what it will be. And we were thinking, I'm not sure we go again in UTMB, maybe yes, or I'm not sure we go again in a classic ultra trail. I think we would like to to be together

to share something like as a team we would like to have some good moments with the other participants even with the organizer we would like to be like in total immersion

with the territory and the the speciality and and we we would like to to discover like very very deeply the place where we are

and to have some fun around the basics, which is ultra-tried. So we said, okay, we have to organize something. We can answer to that. And we were thinking just, okay, what could be very nice for us in five years to have and then we organized that event. Yeah and so it's

a team based thing right? Like 25 teams, three people on a team. Is it like a relay or you run together with your teammates? You start together and you finish together and you sleep together and you eat together and you sleep in a tent of three people without any shower during two days.

So it will be a very nice experience for three people. But between the team too, I think because this year we start just with 25 teams, I think there will be some very good relationships in the bivouac and it will be interesting. And one thing interesting too is that, okay,

performance is important and the time of running will be important too. But I think what is the most important is to be in the mountain, to discover yourself, to discover your team,

to discover each other. So that's why everybody will run the same amount of time. So you will start the Friday for six hours, then you will have 11 hours on Saturday, and then you have five hours again on the Sunday. So it will be around 20, 21 hours of running during the weekend, which is nothing, but it's not like 21 hours in one time.

And everybody will run the same amount of time, which is very difficult for us as organizers because you have to think that the first team will run faster than the last team. So they will make some different loop to arrive all together at the end. We would like the people to arrive in less than 30 minutes. So it will be very interesting to

organize it. I hope it will be fun for the people and we will make some different activities at the middle. You arrive at the top of the mountain and you will have to understand what is the difference between a summer cheese and a winter cheese,

which is impossible at the difference between a summer cheese and a winter cheese, which is impossible at the middle of a race. But then if you are not able to do that, you will have a penalty of 25 minutes. Ah, the twist. Yes. People will say, okay, no matter if I run fast or not, I must have to focus on

my taste. And so it will be interesting because you will have like 10 games like that during the three days. That's cool. And so it would be interesting because you would have like 10 games like that during the three days. That's cool. And during the day, during the night. And I think it's really different than a normal race. So you could be the fastest runners,

but if you fail all those other tests. You won't win the competition. That's a great spin on the whole thing. And we try to make something that even if you are the faster and the stronger runner it's not sure that you will win the game the game is not

only on the sport I like that approach just the other day I did a podcast with Malcolm Gladwell who's a writer, I don't know if you're familiar with him but he's also super into running and he always is thinking about ways to change the way that we do sports to make them more interesting. And he had this idea that high school cross country teams should, uh,

it should be reconfigured such that it's not about whoever wins the race for that team, but it's the combined time of like, you know, the 10 people on the team. So the, the slowest person on the team is just as important as the fastest. And so everybody you're incentivized, you know, as a team to cheer for the least talented person or the least well trained person on your team, which is similar to the idea that you just shared. Like, how can you even the playing field and, and make it kind of up for grabs for anybody? It's not just about the best athlete.

Even without the activity, if you run in a team of three, I think the best team will not be the team of the best three runners. It will be the team who will take care the most of the third runner. Because the third runner, the slowest runner, is the most important one.

And if you don't take care of each other, you will be not able to finish. And that's why even at the edge station, I say, okay, you have to stop at least 25 minutes for everybody. With that, the edge will be more cool moments. Family can come and you have time to discover and to discuss with each other. And you will have time to take care of the third runner. If during 25 minutes you don't take care of the other person

of your group, I think it's a mistake. Because if you arrive, the first runner is easy. He can change the shoes, help the other runner, even make a message or ask and change the nutrition strategy and help him. It can change a lot because I think it's

very important to know that because then if they want to make an ultra, they will have more experience and more idea about what can happen in an new trial and I think all the activity it looks like okay tasting good cheese is this is no right no no nothing to do it yeah but finally if you think each activity will have a sense for yourself for your team and for your experience and your way on Ultra. And that's what we would like to show to people at the end.

It's okay, you did 10 activities, you did three days, you don't need an Ultra. But with all of that, I think for your next Ultra, you will be more ready. Right, and it makes it more fun. So that person who's trying something for the first time will have a positive experience that will make them enthusiastic about learning more

and doing more. We hope so. We hope that we will have fun and we hope that they will have fun too. Otherwise, we miss something. So this is, a lot of people perhaps expected you to show up at UTMB again and go for a fifth win. These dates coincide, that makes that impossible.

Is it, you know, was that, I assume this is why you're not participating in UTMB or is it just like, I did that, I don't need to go back there? I'm not sure I will go back in the future because I did already five times and I win it four times and I did three times CCC

so I'm not sure I will go back to UChembe. I cannot promise it 100% but maybe I will go back and a bit different and with some other people I don't know but for sure it's not my goal to be the first to win it five times or six

times or even four times because last year everybody said, oh you are here to be the first to win it four times or six times or even four times because last year everybody said oh you are here to be the first to win it four times okay if you want but not not that wasn't your motivation no no it's not my motivation and i think that's why i win it four times it's just because it was not my motivation but uh no i i for me try try running means like some different things some travel some discovering, some other race. And I think there's many, many, many races in the world. And yeah, I think UTMB, it's important. It's a very nice race, an incredible race.

And even if people say, ah, it's too crowded in my house, there's too much people. And it's a big race, a big mess. Okay, but Chamonix isonix utmb is utmb and even with a race or without a race when you are here and you say okay you have to to cross three different country you have to make a loop around this amazing mountain it's amazing it's very wonderful and magnificent and uh i really enjoyed that that part of the of the friends and of the alp and um yeah for me it's when i think you can be it's uh it's very

good good memories and for sure i will be there again one time but i'm not sure i will race again to to want it because uh i i did it and uh i have many many other goals and I want to discover something else and to travel and to make something different. And I have many, many plans in my head for the next few years. Yeah. Well, I think it's cool that you're always kind of iterating and growing

and not afraid to kind of let go of things to try new things, which kind of brings up the winemaking thing. I mean, for years, your wife and yourself were creating wine, right? In Beaujolais region, you've since moved to the mountains, but talk a little bit about that. Like that's a world I know very little about,

but feels like it would be an all-consuming kind of affair to create great wine. Yeah, it was very interesting. And for UTMB, just a small joke I would like to add. It's just that I don't want to go back to UTMB because I really would like that an American winner can win it for the first time. That's very sweet of you.

That's the pull quote. We'll take that out. That's the pull quote. We'll take that out. That's the thing you're gonna get quoted on. No, no, I do. Any American in particular you might be thinking of? No, I like all the American winner, but yes, I have one of them not far from my house and I hope he could be.

I think he's doing everything in his power right now to make that happen just for you. Sure. But the wine was really passionate. But to be honest, at the beginning, we were not thinking that this job is so passionate and so complete and so different every day. We were just thinking that,

okay, we like each other with my wife. We got married since 11 years, two days ago. Oh, congrats. So, yeah, we are really close and we really want to build something together. But we were thinking, okay, I'm physio. I'm an international runner. She works on her way. I work on my way.

There's too many things and we never see each other and it's not the way that we want to spend our life. We have to have common projects and what we like is to be out, to be in the nature, to feel

the terror. I don't know if it's a good word. The land. Yeah, the land. The soil. Yeah, and the roots. And it's very important for us. And so we were thinking

maybe we will have some animals. Maybe we will have a bed and breakfast house and share something with the people locally and something like that. And maybe we can have this possibility to take this winery. It's an old history. We were family

but not as close as we think. But it's helped a lot for us. But we were thinking, okay, animals you have to be there every day. And Bed and Breakfast is exactly the same. And with an international runner career, it's not may be possible so maybe the winery could be the best option

and that's why we say okay we will try this option and then we discover this we knew that we like wine, we like to taste some different wine even when we are in US or in France it's just so interesting to see that okay in that

area it's totally different that that area there's an history from this region to this region and we are really passionate about the taste and about the feeling and the history and everything so we knew that it would be something that very pleasant for us but then we had discovered

that each season is totally different and each moment of the season is totally different because you have to focus on commercializing, on communication, of creating the bottles, on the vinification, on the worker, on the vineyard. And each moment is totally different. And it was so helpful for us to discover everything

and to play with that. So it was a full, full, full time job. But it was so interesting and we have an amazing 10 years on the vineyard and yes, we really enjoy that. And we developed so many, many projects about that. Like during the pandemic, we developed something like a bit more ecological

is to bring the wine from the valley to the mountain by foot instead of helicopter. It was very interesting very hard but very interesting but this project even if we stop we want to continue it and I was there like last Monday

like two days ago to bring two different hunts during the day and it was like 8 hours walking with a 30 kilo in your backpack. And it's so interesting to bring the wine from the valley to the earth. Even if some other things came to the earth by helicopter, at least the wine came back by foot. And is that, is the idea is that for like sustainability

reasons, just to say this is possible. It's not just for sustainability, but it's just to show people it bring directly from the producer to the consummator. Right. And even it's true that there's sustainability part, it's really important for us, but it's just people, they will take a glass of wine,

they know from where the wine is coming, they know how the wine is coming to the hut, and then you are with your friends in the mountain, with the sunset, take your glass of wine, I think it's a totally different wine. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I can see that. And I know you were growing, you're doing it organic, or at least one of the ones is organic.

It was one of the things that why we have to stop is because it's a lot of cost and we are not the owner of the land and it's maybe too much money to continue in our way for them and then with the kids and it means too much traveling for me from the mountain place where we are actually to the Beaujolais. So it's many, many things that we say, okay, we did it for 11 years,

maybe it's time to switch from something else, and we really want to focus on that event. So it's many, many reasons that we change, but this kind of project we've done, we want to continue it because it is very, very interesting. And yeah, tonight, I don't know if you will taste it tonight, but I have some wine for you. Maybe you will taste it with your family just to enjoy it. All right, we'll see. Well, it's a different conversation about my relationship with wine. But anyway, Beaujolais is, I mean, it's not that far from Geneva, right?

It's fairly close, but you're not in the mountains, right? For you in the US, it's not far. Yeah, it looks close on the map to me. For you, you think it's like, it's a couple hours in the car, right? Yeah, I think it's two hours, yes. Oh, that's nothing. No, it's not.

But for you to train day in and day out to get to the mountains. The wound is totally different, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So instead of having to go back and forth with the kids, it's like, let's simplify our lives. You move to the mountains. Yeah, because it means that we were living in the Bojer place and in the Bofortin place at a different moment of the year.

So they have to change the school two times a year. And for them, I can understand that it's a bit hard. And there's, yes, many, many reasons. And now we live in a small village in the heart of the Alps. And for training, it's really, really better for me. And I think for life, it's more sustainable and it's more interesting for us and yeah it was

hard for when you change something in your life it's always hard to make the move but I think we are happy with our new choice and I hope we will enjoy it for a long time and from a parenting perspective I mean your kids are still so young but

to kind of raise them in that mountain environment, you know, I would assume on some level you're exposing them to this, you know, the kind of activities that you love. They'll grow up with that. They'll have their own minds about what they want to do, of course. But do you have a sense of whether one or more of your kids is, you know, prone to the kind of things that you like to do, or is it too early to tell? Yeah, we don't want to push themselves too much on what we did and the competition approach,

because already people do it for us. Oh, we'll do it like your father, and you will do that, that. No, no, no, we try to. It never works out like that. But it's true that they don't have a TV at home. do you like your father and you will do that no no no we try to never works out like that but it's true that they don't have like a TV at home it's true that

they are always always in the nature and in the mountain and there's not too many cars and they are yes it's a totally different life that if you live in a city for sure and it's a very small school.

There's not too many children and they all know each other. And during winter time, they ski like two times or three times a week with the school and two times or three times a week with the club and one time with me. So it means that they can ski like six times a week. It means that they can ski like six times a week. It's just, yes, it's sure that they, for sure they will be fascinated about snow, about mountain, about everything. And yeah, when they came with us to the hut,

they are so happy to sleep in a hut and they already made like 800 meters evasion gain at six years old because I have three boxes of wines on my backpack. So they know that I cannot rail them. So I said, okay, I have to go by myself because my father already four boxes of wine. So they did it finally.

And sometimes they even did it faster than us because with four boxes of wine, you are so easy. they even did it faster than us because with four boxes of wine, you are so easy. So yeah, it's true that, yeah, they enjoy the, I hope they enjoy the life in the mountain, but yeah, they have smiles every day.

So it's okay. And the wine, even though you're not doing it anymore, I mean, there's still, you have plenty of wine still to sell, right? Like for years to come. So do you have that available at some of these races in Europe? Like how years to come so do you have that available at some of these races in europe like how does that how do you distribute that yeah we try to just make like

a direct direct setting so directly to the people so we choose like three to four events every year not too much because uh it's important for us to take time to discuss and to spend some time with people so it's a it's been a lot of energy. So we just choose like four to five events every year to sell it and to share it with the people. But yeah, I think for the next two to three years, we have the possibility to sell it, to still sell it. And we made some different like try runner box every year. So we made the last one and it will be released

in like two months i think it will be ready for for the end of the of the season and it's a very interesting one that we try to relate it all the history of the last 10 years it's a mix between running and creating the wine so we made a lot of of joke and illustration about that so for us it's a mix between running and creating the wine. So we made a lot of jokes and illustrations about that. So for us, it's a bit emotional, this last box. Yeah, so running and drinking wine combined into one experience? Yes. Yeah. And normally for people,

it's not like a good runner approach or a good athlete approach but now we discuss a lot together and you can understand that finally with my way to train and my way to live it's not impossible to have a winery and to drink

a glass of wine at the end of your training and training and be a top athlete because I think it's important to say that if you spend 10 hours in the mountain then okay you can arrive and drink nothing and just eat some veggies and going to sleep otherwise you can say okay i run 10 hours and it was a very good training and i was with some friends in the mountain and now i have to have a social moment with them it could be a coffee or a glass of wine or a beer or whatever you want, but for me it's important to say, okay, it was an amazing day.

And then when you will be in the race, and if you think, okay, that training of 10 hours, then I say to my friend, no, I cannot come with you because I have to make my compacts and I have to sleep early and I have to do nothing. And you will remember when it will be an odd moment during the night. Okay. It will be an odd training. And then I don't have a good moment with my friends. I was by myself in my room and it was odd again. Or you can remember, okay, it was an odd training, but it was so good training. And then I have a so

nice moment with some friends and we have a nice dinner and we have a nice moment wow it was so good and then you are in positive attitude and you can continue and for me it's my approach to say okay okay it's hard but I know it will be hard but at least I have this very nice training in my back and it's so good to think about that at this moment so that's why I try to to enjoy that and that's why I say to people, okay, I won't say to you, drink a bottle of wine just one hour before the race. But like one week before or even two months before

when I saw people, no, I cannot test your wine. I have UTMB in three months. I say, wow, three months before the race, you don't want to taste one glass of my wine. Okay, maybe you push too much. Your priorities are.

Yeah, exactly. And it goes back to what we were talking at the beginning about like longevity in your career. Like if you have to enjoy what you're doing, if you're gonna stay in it. And ultimately the more you're enjoying this pursuit as hard as it is, the kind of higher you'll be able to reach.

Like, you know, but to live under such to live under such a strict kind of rule book, maybe you have one great year, but in five years, you're not gonna wanna do it anymore. I think if it's too hard for your body, it's not good, but everybody's different. Some people, they like to have a life like that, like athlete life,

and they can do it for decades, no problem. And I know some athletes like that like athlete life and they can do it for for decades no problem and I know some athletes like that and even Kilian I think his passion is not about like food or social moment or something like that but his passion is like that but people who say I really like wine but I cannot have a

glass of wine because in six months I will do this race how can this kind of people continue this for 20 years? It's impossible because for me it's not possible. So you have to be well balanced with what you think, what you feel and what you

love and then you can think about longevity and I think for short distance it's a different thing but for long distance I think it's the best approach to be well balanced and to enjoy what you do every day. I think it's a different thing, but for long distance, I think it's the best approach to be well balanced and to enjoy what you do every day. I think it's very, very important for me. And so how old are you now, 36?

Yes. 36. So how long do you imagine yourself being competitive in the sport? I hope for many years. But yes, I try to do what I love and I don't want to change my way of life. So if in five years, I don't know, the level increase a lot and on 100 miles,

it became more and more athletic and more competition and more like you have to change your life and stop to have a normal life and family beside your training to be able to reach the top it's no matter for me I will continue I hope I

will continue and I will do it again maybe not at the first position but I don't want to stop running and I don't want to stop traveling and discovering some new races and meet the community like that and to have some project but maybe I won't be I won't be the top in five or ten years but I'm sure I will I'm able to continue to progress maybe I will progress less than the top competitors but I'm sure I'm able to continue to progress because I think I continue to experience my life

and I'm sure I will have some new things to discover. Right, you've created a life that's conducive to the training, but also to the kind of joyful pursuit of all, like everything seems like it's in a nice balance that will allow you to continue to do it, whether you're able to be on a podium or not, almost feels secondary from the way that you explained it. Yeah, and since, I don't know, maybe 10 years now,

but I think 10 years now, I try to have some project of project in plus of the races. And we discussed a lot about that with Jim Wamsley and some other runners and I'm sure even if it's not on the race or on classical race I'm sure

I will be able to continue some different projects. I've never been in Himalaya and I think it's some incredible mountain over there and some incredible project to do over there and I'm really passionate when I heard a story about Nolans not far from there and it would be so interesting to make it like

differently like with Jim maybe to spend some hours in the mountain like for 25 or 30 or 40 hours in the mountain together and yeah I discussed with Tim Tollefson he joined me on the Pacific joined me on the John Muir Trail in 2017. Jim was with me on the Pacific Crest Trail in 2019. And it's so interesting. And there's a Colorado Trail just over there. And I have a ton of projects that I would like to do in trail running. And I think it's the most important goal for me.

It's more important than winning that race or that race or that race. It's just wow, what I have to do in the next 10 years. Plenty of things I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Before we kind of round this out, there are plenty of runners that listen to this show and aspiring runners, people who are thinking about perhaps their first trail race or their first ultra marathon. So I thought it'd be great if you could share maybe some wisdom around what are some common mistakes that people make that you see in training for their first race or in being kind of maybe too afraid to sign up

for something that seems impossible to do? Like, how do you think about that? Or, you know, what would you say to that person? Yeah, I think the progression is something very, very important. I know that maybe it's because force of the media, of the people to say the ground and things to do is 100 miles.

But you cannot start your running career with 10K and one year later at the start line of 100 miles. Yes, you can do it. And maybe you can finish it. But if you think longevity, if you think progression, how you can split from 10k to 100 miles in one year

if you have a look on that it's not just possible so I think the progression is really important and to think that you have time to do it because for me 100 miles is a dream so if you achieve your dream too fast

then ok you can have some other dream, but if it's a big dream, no matter if it takes you one year, two years, three years, five years, maybe it's maybe a better dream if it takes a long time to achieve it. I think it's very important to have this kind of progression, to have different tastes, to have different history,

to take time to meet the people, to discover yourself, to test the... Yeah, with my partner, with Salomon, we worked since 10 years to develop the product and to test the product. So it's so interesting to test these kind of bags of shoes, what

is better for us and the nutrition strategy and everything. I think it's so interesting to test everything. So people have to take time to test everything, to test themselves, to discover themselves before going to the 100 miles. But the second thing that you say is true, that's wow, 100 miles, it looks like impossible, but not I think 100 miles is even more possible than a marathon because in marathon you have the perspective of performance and of time. think 100 miles is even more possible than a marathon because in marathon you have the

perspective of performance and of time and maybe in new york marathon it's a bit different because it's okay i just want to do new york marathon no matter the time but normally people on one running marathon they want to put time on 100 miles no matter the time you just want to finish it for the first runner to the last runner, it's the same goal. It's just to achieve this adventure and this journey. And it's so hard and so interesting to do. But it's not impossible because it could be just walking, just running. And if you go slowly, I'm sure it's possible.

But you have to be really passionate about that. And you have to know why you do that. If you are at the start line of 100 mile race just because it's a bet with your friend or just because you were in trouble and you say, okay, I made this bet with my friend and now I'm here, but I'm not sure I want to be there. Okay, don't take the start

because running 100 miles, it must be something that you feel in your heart and and you are really motivated about that because of course it will be hard but if you know why you are here if it's a dream i'm sure it's possible to do it yeah knowing your why and patience right that idea of progression really is about patience. I think so many people really overestimate what they can do in a year and they bite off more than they can chew

and then find out quickly enough that maybe that wasn't possible. And then they give up and they miss the greater opportunity, which is understanding what's possible with persistence and patience over an extended period of time. Maybe it's 10 years, but if you fall in love with something

and you slowly, slowly iterate on it in that really non-sexy way that no one's paying attention to, like that's truly how you accomplish these goals that seem audacious. I think I start running long distance in, yes. I mean, were you a guy who won your first races right out of the bat and were just winning everything that you entered?

No. Even for me, I was able to win some big ultra race. It took me 10 years to do it. So 10 years is not nothing. So I'm sure I can do it in four, five, six years. But yes, four, five, six years. But yes, four, five,

six years for people, it's too long. But I think it's not a big deal to make a 100 mile race. It's not nothing. And if you consider it like,

okay, it's just 100 miles race, you say, I can do it. So I will do it in one year. No, I think it's not a good approach. 100 mile race, it's it in one year no I think it's not a good approach 100 my ways

it's not nothing and if you think it's nothing it will be too hard for you that's a very wise thing to say yeah I mean how about just start with can you go out and walk around a mountain all day you know like instead of thinking about how fast you can run and how long

you can sustain a certain pace. Yeah, I think it's the best thing to say, just to say, okay, no matter the pace, no matter the elevation, no matter the distance and everybody say about training, what is your male age? What is the distance you do each week? I say, I don't know. Even for my event that we will create in September, we don't want to give the distance you do each week? I say, I don't know. Even for my event that we will create in September, we don't want to give the distance.

We will say to people, okay, you will have to spend five to six hours in the mountain. Yeah, but what is the distance? I don't know. I don't know. Maybe I can give you elevation gain. Maybe I can say you some different thing, but I don't know.

It will depend your pace. It will depend the forecast. It will depend the forecast. It will depend some terrain, everything. But I don't know what will be the distance. It's just you have to be able to spend like six hours the first day and 11 hours the second day in the mountain. And then we will see what will be the distance, but we don't know and I don't want to know.

That'll drive Americans crazy. But what's great about that is it forces you to let go of all of those attachments and expectations. Like, can you free yourself from, you know, what you imagine it is or it can or will be, and just be in the experience, which is really what it's about, right? Yeah, yeah, no, it's a good vision.

Where do you, you know, what do you, you have your idea of what you wanna do with these races that you're creating, but where do you see the future of trail running and ultra running like 10 years from now? You know, how are you thinking about like the new generation of young ultra runners who are coming up and what is that world going to look like

in the not too distant future? It's hard to say because I'm so happy that there's more and more and more people practicing tri-running but in a sustainable way you can say okay it's more and more events and more and more

things organized and if you start a race now, you are 100 people. And in 10 years, you are 10,000 people. I think it's too much for the track. It's too much for everything. So that's why with the event and that's why I think with the organizer and runner, we say, okay, two races in a year, it's good. I think it's good for the body and it's good for the planet too

because I can do like 10 ultra trails in a year, but it means that 10 travel. If you do only two, it's already two travel. Okay, it's a lot, but it's only two travel for international athletes. I think it's a minimum that I have to do to meet the community and to be there at the top of the international race.

But it's only two races. And that's why I try to discuss with people that there's not only a life when you have a big number. You can make things by yourself. And that's why in my event and that's why when I discuss with you and something like that, I say a lot that you have to experience yourself alone in the mountain to discover yourself, to understand how when you go in a mountain, you have to take care of the forecast of your equipment, about the map, about everything. And you have to take an headlamp, you have to take a survival blanket and you have to, yes have to take care from each other if you are in a group.

And I think it's very important. And I think in 10 years, I'm sure that there will be more and more and more tri-runners, but maybe less races, and maybe people, they will do it by themselves, and they will organize their adventure by themselves. And with that, there's a ton of possibility and no limit because you can imagine your personal adventure and what is more relevant for you. And because I say that my season is from July to October, but every place in the world are different and every people are different so you have

there's no definition of traveling because you can do it along the coast you can do it in the mountain you can do it in the middle of everywhere and me I like when it's in the mountain but for some people they prefer to do it in a single tray flat above the ocean

and everybody is different and everybody has some different tastes. So with that evolution, everybody can build their own adventure by themselves, alone, long distance, short distance, cross distance, mountain, cross challenge. And what is important for me is that people, they can discover themselves, they can discover the nature and they are out for some long day in the mountain and people say, yeah, it's not sustainable, try running and too many races, too many events. Yeah, but you can just practice try running without any race,

without any event and by yourself. And I think it's a good approach and I would like to say to people, try it, test it, play with that. And for me, it's so passionate since more than 20 years. And so I'd like to push people to say, okay, try it and you will see it's possible to do things that you are not thinking it's possible. It's just 20 years ago for me me, doing like Hard Rock 100, it's just unbelievable. Right.

And 20 years later, I was able to win it and to have the record on that race. So nothing is impossible. So you can do it. And the victory is not just about winning. It's just accomplish your dream. So this is what's interesting in dry running and in ultra-trial is that everybody has his own victory and everybody can share the same

dream and the same adventure because when we are on the start line of the Hard Rock 100, the winner of the race and the last runner of the race has a sendry, it's just to finish the loop and to see Silverton again, no matter the place, we just want to finish it and to accomplish it. And I think this is unique in all of the other sport. Yeah, yeah, that's really, that's beautifully put. I mean, there is this inherent sort of paradox with the growth of trail running,

because the roots of it and what is so alluring about it is that connection with nature and that kind of the solitude of it all. And the kind of silence, just you and your breath and the wind and whatnot. But as these races and interest in this world continue to grow, suddenly these, you're sleeping in a tent at the starting line and there's two people there or whatever.

Now there's like media and it's like money and the commercialization and all of that, which obviously is antithetical to the whole spirit of the entire thing. But I think what is great about these self-styled adventures is that that's where people's heads are at, right? I mean, the pandemic, when all the races ended, everybody had to get creative

and suddenly you saw this explosion of people just saying, well, I don't need to wait for permission for this race to happen. I'm gonna go out and like do my own thing. And now I feel like there's a lot of momentum behind that type of endeavor. And it doesn't have to be an FKT. It could just be,

hey, I have a trail in my, you know, a mile from my house that I've never gone on before. Let's see what we can do. Let's have some fun. Fastest snow time is a thing, but a try is a thing too. And just trying to do something is, I think, something very good. And even for me, when I start a FKT okay the FKT may be a good excuse with all the partners and everything but for my feelings the best thing is just to try it and to do

it and okay the race is cloudy, it's many people it's too much sometimes but if I did two races it's 40 hours and it's 800 hours of training for 40 hours, so it's not a lot. Right.

Fantastic, man. Well, I think that's a good place to kind of end it for today. I'm excited to watch you race at Hard Rock. Seems like you're in good spirits and your body is cooperating, so I think it's going to be exciting to watch that showdown

it will be so nice and anyway what's happened we will see and no matter I'm just so happy to be there and to come back there and for me it was a good moment to share it with you at least and I'm so happy to make this experience and I'm sure I will have some memories

from the next adventure. Yeah, very cool. Well, let's continue this conversation at a later date. I'd love to have you back on. And I really appreciate you bringing all your thoughtfulness and experience to this conversation. It's really cool. So what you're doing is really inspiring.

I think it really inspires all of us to kind of reach a little bit further and deeper and, you know, kind of what you said about how it took you 20 years to get where you're at. It's very easy to look at someone like yourself and say, well, he just, it's easy for him. He's, you know, built for this and all of that. And maybe there's some truth in that, but to understand like the passion that you have for the sport, the dedication, and just the love of the outdoors and the joyful expression that you bring

to everything that you do, I think is uplifting for everybody to hear. So thank you for that. Thank you very much. Cool, all right. If people wanna learn more about you, where do you like to direct people? I mean, your Instagram account,

is that the best place? Yeah, I try to be myself on my social media account. Yes, of course. And yeah, I can meet each other on a trail one day, I hope. But yes, I try to work a bit on my social media to share my passion and my values. And I hope to answer that to you. Cool.

And I'll have links up to all of that stuff in the show notes. So just check that out. And thanks, Francois. Thank you. To be continued. Cheers. Peace.

That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation to learn more about today's guest including links and resources related to everything discussed today visit the episode page at richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive as well as podcast merch my books finding ultra Finding Ultra, Voicing Change in the Plant Power Way, as well as the Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com.

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