The Rich Roll Podcast - Frank Shamrock Uncaged: From Abuse & Incarceration To MMA Legend

Episode Date: April 5, 2018

He grew up in poverty. His childhood was marred by savage abuse. Violence soon followed. And it wasn't long before the prison doors slammed shut. His future, it seemed, was cemented. But Frank Shamrock didn't just find a way out. He transformed himself wholesale. This is his story. As unimaginable as it is inspiring, it's a tale about the fortitude required to face a set of circumstances so dire, a state of affairs so poisonous, it would have buried the best of us. Instead, Frank prevailed. With the support of the father that adopted him, he ultimately transcended inconceivable obstacles to emerge as one of the world's greatest mixed martial arts fighters — a heroic pioneer of modern combat sports. Dubbed The Legend during the emergent era of MMA, a time in which there were no gloves, no weight classes and basically no rules, Frank was the first true breakout champion and widely considered the sport’s first complete mixed martial arts fighter. He was the world’s first UFC Middleweight Champion. He was the first Mexican-American MMA Champion. And when the dust settled, he walked away from his career with four world titles, two world records (for the fastest championship victories in history) and the only athlete in sports history to win every major league title in MMA. Post-retirement, Frank has had successful runs as a fight commentator, a fight promoter, a UFC and Strikeforce spokesperson, a public speaker, an entrepreneur, a mentor, a philanthropist, and the author of two books, Mixed Martial Arts for Dummies* and his memoir, Uncaged: My Life as a Champion MMA Fighter* (with a foreword by Mickey Rourke). Frank's accomplishments in the cage are amazing. But what is far more compelling is the extraordinary journey he undertook to overcome his past. This a conversation about that journey. It's about how he did it, and what can be gleaned from his experience that can inform how we perceive and approach our own limiters, both external and internal, to achieve our potential in any area of life, irrespective of circumstances. Frank calls it the Shamrock Way. I call it unleashing your best, most authentic self. You can call it whatever you like. I ask only that you listen with an open heart. Podcast is also viewable on YouTube here. I sincerely hope you enjoy the exchange. Peace + Plants, Rich

I just changed what I truly believed about myself. I went, wow, I am a criminal and a liar, and I'm going to change it. Like, that was it. And I think most people don't ever sit down and write that down. I've done a lot of good things, and I've done a lot of bad things. But it's like, I think when you face them and you move through them, I think when you're prepared to address them,

I call it the secret life. Everybody has, you know, the life they live out here, and. Everybody has the life they live out here, and then everyone has the life they live inside. That's Frank Shamrock, and this is The Rich Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey, everybody. How you doing? What's going on? My name is Rich Roll.

I am your host. This is a podcast, my podcast. So good to see you guys today. Really quick, before we jump into today's episode, I wanted to take a moment to thank everybody out there who checked out the new edition of Finding Ultra, the new revised and updated version of my memoir. I'm super proud of it and just so glad to hear that so many of you out there are enjoying it. But for those of you who have been waiting patiently for the Kindle edition, you may know we've had some bumps along this road. That release was delayed for a bunch of

completely confounding reasons, but it is finally available on Amazon. And the good news is I'm told it's available worldwide. I'm also told that if you purchase the original version of the book in Kindle format, that you can auto update that version without any additional purchase. However, some of you out there have been having issues with that, with that updating process. And I'm told that it will all be worked out very soon. I'm told a lot of things. And I know there have been some kinks in this system. All of this is out of my control. And I can tell you that I'm doing everything I can on my end to get these issues resolved as quickly as possible. So thanks again for your patience.

Also, the Plant Power Away Italia, our new cookbook, brand new cookbook is on the horizon. In case you missed it, I posted a fun little trailer video for the book on Instagram and YouTube the other day. It's the first of a few versions that I'm going to be sharing over the coming weeks. People seem to enjoy it. Got a few laughs out of it. Lots of interest in me growing a mustache. So I guess I'm going to take that to heart. In any event, the book really is amazing.

If you enjoyed our first cookbook, The Plant Power Way, I really think you're going to dig this one. It will take your kitchen next level and it's available for pre-order now on Amazon or wherever you buy books. And it would mean a ton to us if you place that pre-order now on Amazon or wherever you buy books. And it would mean a ton to us if you place that pre-order today. Pre-orders are super important in influencing bookstore purchases and visibility and long-term viability of the book. So I would greatly

appreciate it. And thank you very much for that. Did I mention I have Frank Shamrock on the show, the great UFC champion? This is a good one. This guy's story is unreal. It's inspiring. It's a story about transcending an upbringing marked by abuse, violence, poverty, prison, really a set of circumstances I think very few could overcome to ultimately become one of the world's greatest fighters, a true pioneer, really a legend in the world of modern combat sports. And Frank's story, what was required of him to face and conquer his past, his demons,

his challenges, I think is as instructive as it is electrifying. We're brought to you today by Recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment, an experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care. Especially because, unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem.

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We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem. A problem I'm now happy and proud

to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs. They've partnered with the best global behavioral health providers to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, I feel you.

I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again,

go to recovery.com. Okay, Frank Shamrock. Dubbed the legend in the early days of mixed martial arts, Shamrock. Dubbed the legend in the early days of mixed martial arts, Frank competed in this emergent era of MMA, of UFC, in which there were like no gloves, no weight classes, basically no rules. And Frank was the true first breakout champion and widely considered the sport's first complete mixed martial arts fighter. He was the world's first UFC middleweight champion, the first Mexican-American MMA champion. And when the dust settled on his career, he walked away with four world titles and two world records for the fastest championship victories in history and as the only athlete in sports history to win every major league title in MMA. In recent years, he's been a fight commentator, a fight promoter, a spokesperson for the UFC and Strikeforce, a public speaker,

an entrepreneur, a mentor, a philanthropist. He has a nonprofit called Shamrock Way, and an author. He wrote two books, Mixed Martial Arts for Dummies and his memoir, Uncaged. All of this is amazing, but what is most interesting to me is the extraordinary journey he undertook to get to this place, overcoming a childhood and a past that I think would have broken the best among us. So this is a conversation about, it's about the human spirit. It's about Frank's journey, how he did it, and really what can be gleaned from his experience to break through the limits we impose on our own potential to achieve excellence in any area of life, irrespective of circumstances. So let's talk to him. Cool, dude. You ready to go?

Yeah. Let's do it, man. Nice to finally meet you, Frank. Thanks for coming out to do this. Yeah, same here. You first came across, I'm not like a huge fight guy. Like I know a little bit about MMA and I think I've had a couple fighters on the show before. Well, I'm friends with Mac Danzig, who's been on the show before. But I think you really kind of came on my radar when my friend Ryan Holiday's book,

Ego is the Enemy came out and the whole like plus minus equal theory, which was eloquently described in that book. That got me interested in you and your background. And then I saw you on our friend James Altucher's show, who is the person who connected us. And in an additional sort of cool little small worldism, that same day that you did the podcast with James, right after that,

he had Anthony Ervin on, who you took a picture with him, who's a friend of mine who's been on the show as well. And he was super stoked to meet you. I know that. So I was in New York a couple of months ago and did James's show. And Steve and his producer was like, you got to meet you, I know that. So, I was in New York a couple of months ago and did James's show and Steve and his producer was like, you gotta meet Frank, you gotta meet Frank. So here we are, man, psyched to talk to you. So let's, I think, let's just start at the beginning, man. You have a fascinating background and I think above and beyond

just your pure athletic accomplishments which are extraordinary, what I'm most interested in is how you overcame all the obstacles that you had to face growing up. And even more than that, perhaps, is how you've kind of channeled what you've learned and the experiences that you've had to benefit other people. So let's unpack it.

Yeah, well, let's see. What I have now is an awareness of kind of what's going on. And what I realized as youth is I didn't, I had no idea what was going on. Of course you don't have any perspective at that time. Yeah, you're zero and you grew up in your environment and mine was just jacked. I mean, it was completely jacked, unbeknownst to me.

So all of my talents and skills were just completely wasted and just erratic. But as soon as I got into this martial arts lifestyle and I started living and kind of developing this way of understanding how to live, then everything changed for me. Then I had a whole life. I had all existence. I had real friends. I had real family. I had real community. And before all that was not really in existence. It was just kind of this fragile thing that

semi-existed. So the minute I became successful and the minute I got stable, I thought like, gosh, we need to do something. We should try to flip this and help people. And that's what brought me into teaching of the martial arts and kind of developing that side of my person. And that was like the best thing for me was just teaching martial arts, like connecting with people through teaching. And because I was so passionate about it, because I was so, you know, in belief of it,

that people, you know, they loved it. They followed me, they learned, they were, you know, interested in it. They followed me, they learned, they were interested in it, they were compelled by it. And it was a valued study because at the end, both we learned how to kick everyone's butt and create this amazing fighting system. But we also created this format for living

that's super successful. And that's the plus minus equal thing. Right, right, right. Is that like the core of, of like what is that blueprint it's everything that happened to me in my martial arts journey which is one day i showed up at a martial arts school and i was taught like the basics of discipline and respect and honor and like those were as a young man the stuff you see in movies and you're like oh that's amazing but you don't really believe it's true until you're bowing to somebody and they're beating you down and all of a and you're like, oh, that's amazing, but you don't really believe it's true until you're bowing to somebody

and they're beating you down. And all of a sudden you're like, wow, that's real stuff. So it's just all of those sequential steps of the stuff that I learned is this way that I call the warrior's code, the way I think about things. And that is, it doesn't matter what you approach. It doesn't matter business, life, social. It doesn't matter what you approach. It doesn't matter business, life, social.

If you enter it with certain principles and ideas about yourself and about the situation, you can do whatever you want with it. You can make it bad, good. You can achieve your mission. You can give it away. You can do whatever you want but none of that can exist without understanding discipline and and really harnessing willingness right like you have to be willing to do the work right and you can't bestow that upon an individual that has to be a self-generated notion that's all from inside that's all personal and call it divination. I call it the moment you go, oh, I'm an idiot. Or, oh, I'm ready.

I'm not. Whatever the decision is. For me, it was I was sitting in prison. I was like, oh, my goodness. I'm all those things they told me. I thought I was. Right. There's an honesty.

Yeah. There's like a willingness to look in the mirror and really be honest with yourself about where you're at as opposed to fronting. Yeah. Like a willingness to look in the mirror and really be honest with yourself about where you're at as opposed to fronting. Yeah. And in fighting, it's so easy because you get to face it on a daily.

Right. I mean, the most, you know, immediate, you know, dose of humility you could possibly have.

Immediate feedback. Daily. Okay, that's not working. That's bad. Yeah, that's of not value. And then when you compete,

you get the same immediate feedback, both physically and then socially not value. And then when you compete, you get the same immediate feedback, both physically and then socially. What's amazing is that you're even sitting here. I mean, you were destined to become a statistic, right? And I would imagine there's people even that had the fortuitous occurrence to fall into a martial arts school

after having weathered something similar to what you had to go through and still don't make it out, right? So why do you think you were able to first of all, be able to hear what was being said to you, to be honest with yourself about where you were at and then exercise the discipline to get to work and rebuild your life? and then exercise the discipline to get to work and rebuild your life. I mean, I didn't hear it until the end. Until I was in prison and I was like, okay, I'm doing the math. There's no way out.

It's pain. There's literally no way out. I was like, what about this? Well, you could have been a career criminal. You could have just been in and out, in and out of prison. My first stepdad, Joe, was this Irish dude, and he was like work it get it done and you know he taught me i came from this hippie family of whatever do it we you know don't worry about anything live all the government and just kind of chill well let's go back there i want to i want to kind of really understand you know those early years

so what was it like what was going on well my um, my mom had four kids by the time she was 19, 19 or 20. And she came from a Jehovah's Witness community, which was basically her mom had run off with a preacher at some point who was a door-to-door guy. And all of a sudden she went from middle-aged or middle-class, wonderful going-to-school existence to living in this Jehovah's Witness culture. Were you in the Bay Area then? Where was this? This was in Los Angeles.

So I was born in Santa Monica at the UCLA Medical Center. But then my mom moved up north, and she moved to Redding and Anderson, California, which were like small towns. I'm assuming to get away from the religion and get away from the whole culture. And then, so I grew up, what my first memories were in Redding, California,

which is like a small rural town in central California. And, you know, we lived in the projects. We were like, you know, just welfare kids. And then, and so, you know, at some point it becomes kind of a bit of a nightmare, right? Like abuse and, you know, getting locked in the closet and all these things that, you know, I read about as I sort of dug into your story. I mean, you know, it's, it sounds like horrific. Yeah. Yeah. And I didn't know any of this. To me, it was, I had a wake-up moment when I moved in with our stepdad, Joe. I was like eight or nine, maybe I was eight.

And I remember him directing me in the closet, get in the closet. I remember the first consciousness coming that he was putting me in the closet. Unbeknownst to me, I found out 30 years later, it was my mom. My mom was, since I was a baby, putting me in the closet. Unbeknownst to me, I found out 30 years later, it was my mom. My mom was, since I was a baby, putting me in the closet. It was like this thing, you want to act out? It will shut you down. And it was very effective. Were you the oldest or where did you fall amongst your siblings?

I was the last to youngest. So I have a younger sister and I have an older brother and I have one older sister. But yeah, I was the last to youngest. And I don't know what the deal was i think i had a lot of energy i think because of my athleticism and stuff i think i had more energy than others right so she didn't know how to corral that so like locking you in the closet she didn't shut it down so she she put me in the closet and then how long after that before

you start kind of getting in trouble? It was about seven or eight. I think it's because my brain just turned on. Like all of a sudden I was conscious. And I was conscious of these barriers and things that were happening. And I see it happening in my daughter. She's now very conscious. She's nine. And she's like, bing.

She understands what's going on. She's on the line now. If I started locking her in the closet, she'd be like, yo, dad, what are you doing? She'd be insane so um it was right about this time that i started just i couldn't control myself emotionally it's like seven or eight eight and a half and i would just fall apart i would go to do things like athletically or socially and i would just have these you know social breakdowns emotional breakdowns um so i i was seeing all these shrinks and therapists and like outside people um to help me and i i nobody knew what was wrong i didn't know what was wrong because i didn't know that

being locked in a closet was not normal right so when they're saying what's going on at home you're like it's fine it's normal yeah we're in the closet did the shrinks come in because of school or yeah because i'd have these breakdowns at school and I was excelling. Like I'd be getting straight A's, but then there'd be some confrontation or some physical moment that I couldn't physical deal with and I'd freak out.

Right. And so they would send me- Were you getting in fights that early? Fights, yeah, yeah. People picked on me because I was a victim of abuse. Like if you picked on me, I would freak out, because I didn't want to be abused. So that button's just getting pushed

and you're just reacting. Yeah. And I was very young, so I didn't know. I just knew that when it was time to defend, you just went all in. But that's interesting. You were a good student, though, nonetheless. You were able to perform academically.

I read all the books. I went home. I was like a super nerd. I went home. I read all the books. I would show up in class. I knew everything. I was like, smart. I read all the books. I went home. I was like a super nerd. I went home. I read all the books. I would show up in class. I knew everything. I was the kid disrupting the class because I had nothing to do at home.

There was no TV. There was no social interaction. So I went home. I read the whole book. Right. So when do you get into scruffs with the law? That was about nine. About nine I started getting in.

What, like shoplifting? Or like, what were you doing? Yeah, I would shoplift. I would shoplift alcohol. I would go into a store and drink alcohol in the back. Like, I would steal things. Stealing was a huge- Do you think, like, looking back on that now,

was that some form of a cry for help? Like, an unconscious desire to like- Yeah, and I think a pushback on the stuff. It wasn't normal. It didn't feel good. I didn't feel good. I felt good stealing things. Right.

Like I felt good about that. Like I was totally fine. Uh-huh. No moral dilemma over that. I was like, this is amazing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I got this stuff and then I'd get in trouble and be like, but that's so wrong. Uh-huh. No moral dilemma over that? Zero. I was like, this is amazing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I got this stuff. And then I'd get in trouble and be like, but that's so wrong.

Uh-huh. Because I really felt okay. Yeah. That's how messed up things were for me. I mean, in the household, so you're getting locked in a closet. I mean, was there some physical abuse, sexual? Like, what was it? What was the-

Just an overab over abundance of emotions and people freaking out and you know you get hit you need to kneel in the hallway for hours you know joe had his knee on the hallway where you'd kneel on your knee and put your put your nose on the wall for like four hours in the hallway yeah and then the world's a different kind of discipline yeah and the world would go on around you and you'd just be kneeling in the hallway and like if you sat down on your heels, you'd get screamed at. So it was like a whole, you know,

and he was, you know, the poor guy went to Vietnam as a young man, you know, fought his heart out and came back and everyone hated him. Yeah. He turned alcohol and demons. You don't, yeah, you don't treat your family that way. Yeah, I was kneeling in the hallway when I was like nine years old, you know,

thinking about my punishments and, you know, coming from a family before that, that was without a father, without leadership. And my mom was like, do whatever you want. We're hippies, you know, we, you know, have fun. It just completely, you know, made me, you know, push back. And did your mom, how did, did your mom survive that? Like, is she around now? Yeah. Mom's still alive. She's in East Texas.

She's chilling. So, all right. So you're shoplifting. You're stealing booze and stuff like that. At some point, though, like juvenile hall kind of enters the picture, right? Yeah. Well, I eventually stolen some weed from my neighbor's pouch on his 10 speed because I knew that he was selling because his younger brother told me

and we ended up getting arrested at the pond or park or something. But I got 11 days at, what was that? Yeah, I got 11 days at juvenile hall. And that was the first time that i got taken away from my family and yeah and that was the first time where i was like talk to other kids about you know what was going on because these were all the bad kids right so i was like oh bad kids right how we doing and i was checking in and giving them you know here's what's happening they were like are you kidding me like oh yeah i read somewhere yeah they were like wait wait you don't get locked in a closet i'm like you're not living in the backyard and a tarp and they're like what

did they're like what are you talking about and it was the first time when i was like i had no idea that that wasn't happening to other kids right and that they weren't you know it's just your normal that was my normal and is that is that when you kind of got the speech about uh hey listen if you keep getting into trouble you're gonna have to live here all the time. And you thought, well, that doesn't sound so bad. Basically, yeah. Yeah, it was. And I'll never forget it.

They were like, listen, if you continue to do this, we'll take you from your home. And I was like, ah. That sounds good. Thank you. Like, wow. What do I need to do? And then they followed up with, if you continue to do stuff exactly like this. I was like, this is amazing.

I know exactly what to do. I was 11 years old. Yeah, I think they now call that the school to prison pipeline. Yeah, I was like, wee! You were on the turbocharged ride right into the heart of that. So how long do you end up,

how much time do you end up spending throughout your youth in juvie? I went in of that. Yeah. So how long do you end up, how much time do you end up spending throughout your youth in juvie? I went in and out. So I went from the crisis center to foster care, to youth home, to group home, and then to work camp, and then to youth prison was kind of my journey. Right. And so how old were you at that point so i was uh 13 when i got to youth camp which was one step before youth prison right and so you know paint me the picture like what's that what's a day in the life and in that experience all about it just i was i was a

young kid i had no idea what's going on and they would just move me from place to place and i'd meet new families and they were nice. Like they were, you know, at that time it was a religious based community that was kind of supporting that side of social services. So it was Christian science and it was Mormons. It was all these wonderful families and I'd show up and just train wreck them. I felt so bad in hindsight, but I was just traumatized. So I try to fit in, I try to figure it out. I try to, you know,

integrate and then something would happen and I'd freak fit in. I try to figure it out. I try to integrate. And then something would happen. And I'd freak out emotionally. And I'd escape. I'd steal something. I'd steal a car. I'd steal the van. I'd take everybody in the group home.

I would do something just completely jacked to make sure that they would come get me and move me to the next place. And then each time it would be an increase in security,. Increase in security and increase in lack of resources or lock up resources. And each time it would be closer to what I realized would be prison. Yeah, and were you getting like any kind of psychiatric or psychological help along the way? Because clearly like this pattern is emerging and you need help, like you need somebody to talk to.

And they're just kind of shuffling you about, right? Hoping for the best when they're not, they're not actually, nobody's actually confronting like what's making you behave that way. There was no resources for that. And there was, that was thrown back on the families, you know, that were providing that support, you know, to kind of be families. Right. So, all right.

So playing it forward, then how does this play out? Like basically you're in this cycle of like increasingly worse and worse situations in terms of your behavior, but like where are you at 18 years old and what's going on at that point? Well, when I was 16 and a half my son was born and then within within six to eight months i was in prison jail and sort of going on to the kind of youth prison thing um what'd you do that time oh man i i was stealing stuff i'm just i was just a wreck of it like it was just a wreck of a human being.

Stupid bullshit. Yeah, and it was just about being a wreck of a human being. Like it wasn't about anything. Like it wasn't making money. It was just being as bad as I could be for whatever reason. And so yeah, I was 17. I got arrested for stealing a bunch of stuff, and then I went to youth jail,

and then they put me in jail afterwards, and then basically they're like, listen, you're 17. You're an emancipated minor. You're married because you're an emancipated minor, and you're going to be tried as an adult, so all this from moving forward is going to be adult time,

adult actions, and adult um commitments and then and i thought they were like the same old stuff i was like yeah whatever you know and go on the game so it wasn't like oh shit just got real like it was it wasn't real until i was in prison for about a year and i did all this stuff and wrote all the things told all the stories and i was like wait a minute they're serious like. Like I'm not going to get out for, you know, another two and a half years. So what prompted you to start kind of journaling and getting real with yourself? It was my son's birth. It was him being born.

I'd never had a father. Like I just never had anybody there. And then Joe came along, but it was weird and adversarial. And I wasn't like connected to the fatherness and it wasn't until i was in my you know when i was 13 to 15 that i had a dad you know bob shamrock came along and i was like ah i got this father figure so when my son was born i was like this is my only chance to influence his life and be a dad like this is it and i'm in prison and i was like that's like all the stuff that just happened to me and i go do that i have to change that you're just gonna repeat that i go hey what am i doing i'm like i'm the i'm my dad

and i was like ah so i just i opened up the notebook and i was like no i go how do i change it and first it was how do i get out of it because that was what i was taught and that didn't work so then it was how do i take responsibility and figure it out and move forward it's interesting that you decided to just start writing like where do you think that impulse came like just there was nothing else to do or like this is the only thing that you actually have control over is to start i think it was my first voice i think it was my first communications that were real because i was writing down what was real in the beginning it was my first communications that were real. Because I was writing down what was real. In the beginning, it was just all the horrible stuff that was happening.

What am I going to do? And then it was, how do I get out of these things? And then it was, you know, real plans. And then it was legal writs. How do I get out of this? You know, with the law and how do I use the rest of it? But I also, you know, once I sat there for a year and i was like i'm not getting out like nothing i can do say there's no because before i could show up i could dazzle them

i'd be listen i was locked in closets you don't understand how terrible it's been and they'd be like wow that's really terrible you know we should help you and after about you know four years of that people were like no you know you've stolen everything done. You're not what you say you are. So it became my responsibility to say, to be what I said I was. And so whatever I wrote down, I was like, I'm going to be that dude. I'm going to go to school. I'm going to do the thing. I'm going to be honest. Like I'm going to, you know, I'm going to tell the thing.

Yeah. I mean, but there had to be like, there was an impulse inside of you that was telling you like, I'm not this guy, I don't need to continue down this path. I mean, I think for a lot of people, probably I would imagine most people, that system just breaks them down. And then they're just, I'm a piece of shit and this is what my life's gonna be like.

And they just sort of, you know, wave the white flag and just take it, you know. But there was something inside of you that, that had a vision for a different life. Yeah. And part of it was, I would see my friends come and they're the same friends that were at the beginning of the cycle and we'd all be in prison together. It'd be like, whoa, it's like, it's happening to him too. You know, it was like, it's, it's right there and I could see it. And it became the example of like,

this is what you're not supposed to, like, you're not supposed to do this. You'll be so done. And then, you know, I had somebody, I had Bob Shamrock. Yeah, you had Bob. So you had met Bob earlier, right? Yeah, when I was 13 or 12, almost 13, I went to his group home. And so he was taking kids in

and he was training people to be fighters and that was kind of like not at that point or athletes yeah but he did have that ritual of if you had beef with somebody you dealt with it and that was in the swimming pool right in the pool yeah you literally put the gloves on and everybody stood in a circle and then you went at it and then you guys hugged it out. And the only rule was that when it was over, you hugged it out and it was over. So when you were there, when you were 13,

how many kids were there at that point? 20, 21, 22. That's kind of amazing that he was taking kids in. Like what, I mean, what compelled him to begin doing that? He was, those were his kids. He couldn't have kids. I mean, his wife tried and he was deeply religious. And he grew up in LA.

His dad had a textile mill and business, was very successful. And he saw downtown and the homelessness and he always wanted to help that community. So when we couldn't have kids, he was like, these are going to be my kids. I'm going to start a home. I'm going to help the kids. And originally they were just going to be, you know, the kids, they weren't going to adopt them. They weren't going to, you know,

make them family, family. Right. But you know, when his marriage fell apart and his wife left, you know, that became his family and we became his family. Yeah. That's amazing. So you have that experience. It was crazy. We had a giant family in a huge van. It was the craziest thing you could imagine.

We were like the wild boys. But it was all with the goodness. We would clean up the parks. We would play the football team. We would play the football team we would play the cops you know we were he believed like through athletics and through like family and like you know accomplishment like you could you know really do anything like you could build anything so when you're when you finish with prison how do you end up back with him like did he come and get you he never left so he always advised me and he always visited and wrote me and sent me, you know, money and encouragement and, you know, kept track.

And, you know, and he also advised me. He was the one who was like, what are you going to do? What are you going to do? And I was like, I don't know. I mean, what do I got? The only thing I got is this body. And I built up this body. I've done this thing.

And because he really believed in athletics and bodybuilding. He always guided me on that path. So I spent those three and a half years in prison super nerding out on bodybuilding and lifting weights. So by the time I got out, I was 220, solid, all natural, prison food. How much yard time did you have? Could you just work out all day? I mean, you get, by law, because I'm a super nerd, by law, you get an hour a day if you're beneath maximum security.

So I got an hour a day, minimum. But I would get three and four hours a day. Plus, I would always work in the kitchen, so I made sure I could have the calories to support what I was doing. And I was working out an hour know, hour and a half, two hours a day, six days a week. So like an hour in the yard, but then back in your cell, also pushups and that kind of thing, or? I didn't do a lot of extra like calisthenic stuff at that time until I got into my minimum security stuff. And I was running like a fire crew and like a

whole other team. In the beginning, I just lifted weights. Because I was also in level four. I mean, Charles Manson was like one yard over. When I first went down, I was like 18 years old. I got to Corcoran, and they're like, yeah, Charlie's over there. I was like, what are you talking about? But I just lifted heavy for three years. And then I got to minimum security and then I kind of changed my whole structure.

But what I would do was I would stretch. I would always stretch and try to keep myself limber because I was packing on muscle. It just went, it was crazy. Because all you do is sleep and read and lift weights and walk around the yard and flex your muscles. I was like, there's nothing to do. And I would imagine there's a lot of energy

going into alliances just to survive, right? Like, who are you hanging out with? Who's watching your back? Who's back are you watching? Like, all that. I mean, look, my only frame of reference is what I see in movies and on television or other people that I've had on the podcast.

But that's got to take a psychic toll. Yeah, it's pretty real. And I, I mean, I grew up alone, obviously, with and without family. So, um, and then when I went, when I first went to jail, like I didn't know that I was Brown. Do you know what I mean? Like everyone around me, my wife, my mom, my mom, everybody was white. So I thought I was kind of white. And then when I first went to jail, they were like, listen, man, you can't just be hanging out with white people. Like, what's your race? And I go, well, everyone around me is white. And I'm like, yeah, you're brown. So in the beginning they were like, you're Mexican. And I was like, I don't know, man. I don't really like, we're not like Mexican. So when I went to prison, I was encouraged to hang out with the Mexicans and I was

like I'm not Mexican so I went and hung out with the Indians with others because they're of a culture that's just you know whatever you are you are if you're Hawaiian you're Polynesian you're Indian you're in that group um and that I think made it a little bit easier and a little bit more challenging for me uh when i was doing time because i was easily attacked in that group because there's not a lot of power there's not a lot of strength in that group i can't imagine man i mean it's it's just so crazy that you got through that you know and then ultimately end up with Bob. And you come out 220, you were jacked up.

I was probably 218. 218. 218. I'm 5'10". Just all natural. Just huger than huge. And when I got out, Bob picked me up. And he basically gave me this super dad chi pep talk. He's like, Bob, Bob picked me up and he basically gave me this, this super dad,

she pep talk. He's like, listen, you've, you've screwed up your life, but he's like, you've just made this huge commitment. And he lined off all these things that I did when I was in prison.

He's like, you got educated, you went to college, you know, you lifted weights. Right. You went to college in prison, college in prison.

Like I had all these things. And he's like, and you, you know, you could fix sheet metal and cars. And cause I was like a super nerd. was locked up i was like i'll take everything i'll do anything to get out of here you know because i didn't realize i was screwing up until i screwed everything up and then i was stuck and then i was like oh hell no and i was going to get

out um but you know he's like listen you could you could be an athlete like you could be a performer you could do this you know? And by the time my brother had just had a successful career as a stripper. Right. So he's literally- This is Ken, right? This is Ken, yeah. So he's like, you could be a stripper like your brother.

He's like, he made a ton of money. He tells me the whole story and I'm like, okay. And he's like, or your brother's also doing this wrestling thing now and it's totally taken off and he kind of breaks it down to me and it makes it sound like it's sport, wrestling, grappling, fighting. Right. And I'm like i'm like okay so i get out i have two days out and then the second

day he drops me off at the dojo and he's like you know he's like what are you gonna do and i go i'm gonna be a fighter i'm not gonna be a stripper i can't that's ridiculous and just for clarity other than good strippers but i was like well you could have some short-term cash you know yeah this huge long hair. So, I mean, I totally, I could see where he was coming from. Just like the Chippendales thing. Yeah, I could see where the money was coming from. But I was like, I don't, I can't do that.

I can't do that. It was just not me. And so, just for clarity, Ken is Bob's adopted son who then becomes your adoptive brother because Bob adopts you yeah right yeah and then first teacher and trainer right for fighting and and it seems like this all happens pretty quick yeah right so you go to the dojo and was it immediately like this is my home um no it took me a long time to get adjusted to it because i think because i just come from prison so i had this very closed you know i was living in books and the special world and working

out all day and flexing on the yard and living this other existence that's very sub world and then when i got into the fighting thing it's a whole other sub world where you there's no time to do anything else like you just focus everything on the thing and then you're always tired and exhausted so I just tried to show up I can and like not die and I think people appreciated that and then I think people were turned off by it because I yeah I look like a tough guy but I didn't know anything so they would just beat me up and you know I And I was a waste of space when I first started. Cause I looked like I had value, but I had zero. You're walking around like,

you got all the answers, right? But it's not like you were a wrestler in high school. No, I did nothing. You didn't have any of that kind, you were just big. I never made more than like two days of wrestling camp and I'd get thrown out. Cause I'd get in some fight or something terrible would happen or some emotional breakdown or something ridiculous so yeah i never

made a sport longer than a week and so what kept you in was it just this is the only thing i was going yeah that was it it's this or nothing it was it that's all i had you know and i thought okay wait i could get out and i could use these sheet metal you know certifications that i got or i could go do this thing that i got but i'll never have that thing like i'll never and my thing was my dream was to be a world champion you know my dream you know there was a few moments in my life where i remember complete clarity and those divinations where i was like this is what i'm going to be when i become who I want to be. And that was watching boxing at the foot of my stepdad's bed

and watching him fight and win and then be a champion and then deliver a moment and have everyone be focused on that moment. And I just remember that, and I was like, I'm going to be that guy. So you held that vision even though you're getting your ass kicked yeah and even when i was in prison even all through this journey so before that even living in the streets like eating at a tread all this stuff i was like you don't understand someday and it was deep like there was no efforts towards it until i got out of prison so what do you make of that i mean where does that where does that come from i mean i think a lot of people would just be like you know my life's gonna this is my life and it

sucks but yeah i think if you never give up on that thing then it's totally worthwhile but to even have the idea to begin with but everybody has yeah right everyone has the idea you think so yeah i asked my daughter in the mornings what do you dream about and she tells me and they're just they're the same dreams she wants to be next to zendaya dancing and singing and do you know hitting the movements on disney channel because in her world that's where she got inspired so it's like all she wants from me is to create that right but she has she has your support she has you saying well let's like make this happen right whereas you get you have the world beaten down on you yeah but i also developed and got into this system and martial arts was the first one right you know martial arts was the was the family so

when you hit that dojo are you thinking well i'm gonna even though you're getting your butt kicked like i'm gonna make a career out of this i'm gonna find a way to make money or you i mean you must have thought well i can go do this and learn i'm getting my ass kicked like i gotta make some cash like maybe i should do the sheet metal thing on the side or you know let's get something else going on i honestly thought it's all there was because i also knew like, who's gonna hire me? I'm gonna have like 24 felonies. Like, it's like ridiculous.

Like there's no, I have no real qualifications for anything other than teaching people to beat people up and helping inspire people. The thing is like, there's something so powerful about just being all in. There is no other route. There's no plan B. This is what I'm doing. Even though I'm just learning and I don't know what I'm doing,

I'm getting my ass kicked, I'm here. Yeah. I think that's what the beauty of the whole system is and how it works. It's like when you show up. It's like when I show up and I humble myself to a mentor, who sometimes has been, I've been a fan of, or they've been a fan of me, or there's all kinds of roles that we play. But to show up to a plus and to be like, listen, man, I'll clean your floors, dude.

Show me the thing and I'll, I'll clean your floors, dude. Like show me the thing and I'll, I'll, I'll be over here, you know, I'll serve you. Right. You have to, you have to have that humility. Yeah. Right. Does, do you, did you learn that humility through fighting or through just life experience? I learned it through the fighting. Yeah. Because it's, it's the, I learned everything on the example, everything on the real yeah because it's it's the i learned everything on the example

everything on the real as i call it so it's like how do you figure out what's bad do all the bad stuff and they'll send you to prison you'll guarantee i can tell you exactly what's bad and we'll end you up in prison and then conversely i can tell you exactly what's good but it's only through the experience of doing but here's the thing once, once you have people that have done the experience, you don't really have to go on the journey. You can find somebody who went on the journey. Like, hey buddy. What's funny is that you're like this bookish,

nerdish, nerdy kid who's like academically inclined and is reading all these books. Like you could have learned these lessons, you know, on the written page, but you had to experience it for yourself yeah but i think it's because my social and family situation was so dysfunctional yeah so because of course when reality is backwards then you do the backwards right so i mean it's almost like there was a there was a vacuum of free will like you were headed in that direction until

something intervened so all right so you're you're so you're learning, you're in the dojo, you're training your butt off. So, you know, where does the first fight come up? Like, I mean, you hit the ground running, it seems. I mean, just the way it reads online, it's sort of like this just kind of happened overnight. It did, it did. Partly because, I mean, it took me like two weeks

to heal up from the tryout. Because the tryouts, I can say, and you do 500 squats, heal up from the tryout. Because Ken, the tryouts are insane. You do 500 squats, sit-ups, push-ups, and leg lifts, and then you spar a professional fighter for 20 minutes. And mine was Ken. Because he's like, well, he's my brother. I'm going to do him right. You know, honor, chi. And he just beat the hell out of me.

And it took me a couple of weeks to recover. of me. And it took me a couple of weeks to recover. And in that time, I just, you know, I accepted what I was, I accepted what I was going to do to the, to the max of what I understood. So I, you know, during those two weeks, I changed my mind and I went, okay, I'm, I'm, I'm jacked up, but I'm going to become a professional fighter and this is my chance. So I'm going to go all in. And, and as soon as I healed up, I just started training and taking notes. And I took the same mindset that I had in prison, which was I was needing to overcome this thing. I was stuck, I was trapped because I didn't have.

And this was the path. And I just, I followed the path. I showed up every day. I studied, I was, I created theories and ideas and concepts and I asked questions I followed the path. I showed up every day. I studied, I was, you know, I created theories and ideas and concepts and I asked questions and they beat me up because I asked questions because it would, you know,

there was a culture before that we didn't ask questions. You followed the rhythm and the flow and the thing and the curriculum. And so I was unbeknownst to me against the system a little bit and a bit abrasive but asking too many questions nerd yeah but what about this they're like beat them up some more i'm like oh no right right but i didn't learn because you know normally you know you if you want someone to stop ask questions beat

them up a few times and they stop asking questions but for me i was so used to getting beat up because I didn't know anything and it was all part of the journey that I was just like, I'll fully accept that. It's like getting a spanking when you, like doing something when you know you're gonna get a spanking when it's a kid.

Like I would do that because I knew like, I'm gonna get the answer or part of it and then a beating. And I'm like, that's all right. I'm totally worth that. Yeah, and you're like, I know how to do the beating part. I can survive. Like I'm going to get the answer or part of it and then a beating. And I'm like, that's all right. I'm totally worth that. Yeah. And you're like, I know how to do the beating part. I can survive.

Like I'm super strong. But kind of what I infer between the lines with this is like this deep sense of personal responsibility. Like, yeah, you have Bob and now you have Ken and you've got this community at the dojo. But this understanding like the only person who's going to be able to solve this dilemma of life that I'm in is me. And the only way out of this situation to a better life is through, and I have to rely on myself and my own, you know, my brain and my body and my mind and my spirit. And within that, like this idea of just doubling down, like going all in completely and resting all the responsibility for that path on yourself. Is that fair?

Yeah. Well, I mean, I think it's the only way. I think you'll find uber successful people in sports and everything else have the same mindset, drive, persona, whatever you want to call it mine was from a place of desperation and and survival and and all the other stuff but all many of my other friends you know it comes from a place of competitiveness and you know self-achievement and community achievement so on the competitive aspect of it do you see yourself as somebody who is competing or at least at that time like competing against others to be better than other people or was it more of an internal thing like competing against yourself to be the best version of you uh it was both for me because i was also leading

the sport or trying to lead the sport so you know everyone's eventually studying me um and and it was also based on survival so like i had to win like i always had to win right because i was also going with the notion of like i'm going to fight to the death so therefore i have to win because you know i'll exhaust all remedies so this, you know, always super intense intensity about my competition. And then, yeah, I'm sure that came from internally, you know, because that, you know, all I ever wanted was that thing. Do you know what I mean? And imagine having it right there. And all you got to do is beat somebody up, or all you got to do is work really hard, or all you got to do is, you know, really all you got to do is work really hard, or all you got to do is really, truly apply yourself.

And for whatever reason, God, the world, Bob, it was all laid out in front of me. And I just had to achieve it, go down the journey. So how long before, from the first moment that you walk into the dojo to your first competitive fight? Eight months. Eight months? And what happened in that fight? I won.

I beat Boss rudin yeah and and 10 minutes by decision um technically and um and it was just instantly i went from nobody to superstar suddenly everybody's talking about yeah that's that's so crazy i mean how how did you get such a prestige fight right out of the gate like i didn't you have to it would seem like you'd have to work your way up to a fight like that. Well, Pancrase was a fairly new organization. It kind of gone through the first cycle of stars. So they were looking for a new kind of generation of stars.

And we just all happened to come along in this new tournament that was made to build the next wave of stars. And Boss was like my counterpart. Ken, you know, I was Ken's brother in the u.s and he was boss and he had beaten ken right so scripture pinned is a like a grudge match kind of thing he hadn't beaten ken yet they hadn't matched up yet i don't think um but he'd knocked out a ton of people and he was very dangerous i didn't know he was i came I came out of nowhere. I'm like a young nerd from prison. Every time I asked somebody,

I finally passed through and they're like, oh, so and they would look down at the ground. I'd be like, this is just terrible. Yeah, but there's something great about that naivete. Like when you don't know, you know what I mean? And you can go and do it with like a purity. In hindsight, it's horrifying because. Yeah, but had you known,

had you been able to fully appreciate the situation you were in, you know, the fear might've gotten the best of you. Yeah, well in you known, had you been able to fully appreciate the situation you were in, the fear might've gotten the best of you. Yeah, but in hindsight, it's horrifying because I just wrestled this past New Year's in Japan and like this kind of crazy grappling match. And I saw that generation that I was 20 years old, no idea what's going on, the fear

and all that stuff going on. I was like, I can't believe I did all that. Like, I can't believe I went through that and, and came out like, you know, halfway. Okay. Like that's insane. So speaking of Japan, when do you, you end up going to Japan? Was it after that fight or before? Well, that fight was in Japan. Oh, it wasn't in my next, I think 16 fights were in Japan. But you, so you lived there for a while though, right? Yeah. Well, I went there.

So after six months of training, I moved to Japan. And then I finished my training in a Japanese dojo. Right. And what was the style of fighting that you were learning there? Pancrase or what they would call submission, submission fighting, submission grappling style. And was that different than what was going on in the States?

Like, why did you go to Japan? That's where the money was. And that's where the developed leagues were. You know, we were on a 20-city tour. And then that's where the contacts were. That's where the opportunity was. In the States, it was still like UFC was just about started or just had started.

And it was a tiny audience that was doing good numbers on pay-per-view, but it was nowhere near the revenues that were coming in Japan. At that point, yeah. And what did you learn kind of about being immersed in that culture that helped you as a fighter or as a human? I actually learned a lot because, you know, if you position that against, I just came from prison. Like I was sitting in prison for three and a half years. And before that, I was a complete criminal, like living on the streets

and just doing everything horrible you could ever imagine. So it was this weird moment where I went from the fear and quietness of prison and the focus to this other fear and quietness of prison and the focus to this other fear and quietness in Japan. Cause I've never left the country. Like I'd never done anything like this in my life. And all of a sudden I'm on parole, going to live in Japan and finish my martial arts.

Did you have to clear that with your officer? Like how'd they let you go to Japan? This is the greatest letter writing of my life. Like I had to prove that it only exists in japan it's an emerging sport the revenue like there was all this you know preparation and stuff my my my skills you know after prison were put to good use um but yeah i went to i went to japan on parole and finished my career of training um and it was just it was a crazy wake up because no one spoke English. So every day was, it was the same quietness that was in prison, but it had this whole other intensity because I was going to fight this guy. I knew I was going to fight the guy.

The minute I landed, like, you're going to fight the guy. And I was like, oh, okay. So it was all leading to this moment. So it was a very intense, you know, two and a half months where everything was just every single day. I was like, oh my God, oh my God, it's it's coming and then i'd be like who are you fighting then i'd be like boss root and they'd be like oh and they'd look down and be like this is the whole like i'm so scared and then uh luckily funaki and suzuki the older uh teachers of the dojo basically ken's role uh for

us in the states you know they they took me of their wing and they showed me the basic stuff and, you know, they basically saved my life as I see it, because I was not prepared to fight Boss Rutten when I, when I landed in Japan. It was going to kick my face off. Right. But you, somehow you, you, you beat this guy. I don't know how you did that, but you do. And, and, you know, you're launched into, you know, immediately into mainstream awareness as this new talent, right? And as I understand it, you're kind of looked at as somebody who could excel in all the various disciplines of mixed martial arts, right? Like I'm a triathlete. like my analogy to that would be, you know, in the sort of earlier days of triathlon, there'd be the guy who was an amazing runner in college. And then he didn't really know how to ride a bike or swim, but he could, he was doing really well because he's really good at one of those three things. But today, as the sport has matured, you have to be, you have to be amazing

at all three of them or you're out. Right. And, and so when I was reading about you, I was thinking, well, you were, you were kind of like one of the first guys who was who could who could excel across the board and all the many different kinds of styles of fighting and disciplines that are required to excel in mma so yeah is that totally yeah i was the first complete athlete um because that's where the study took me um the need was to create a system a la bruce lee where you did the most amount of damage with the least amount of effort to yourself and you could win under the skill set under the rules so the rules were ever evolving as was the athlete in the sport i was the first like super athlete that could fight i only say could fight because i had more techniques than the other

super athletes. And then I was the first guy to put a whole system together where I was good at punch, kick, wrestle, knee, you know, position. My last 11 fights all finished differently because it doesn't matter where you're from or what position you're in. Everything has equal damage opportunity if you have the right system. And the system that you put together, was this something that you crafted yourself like as part of the like hey i have a new idea or a different idea or is this something you learned from the japanese pure survival it was an amalgamation of everything that happened so as the sport continued to evolve in the last seven or eight years of my career i was focused solely

on striking because the five years before the sport was focused solely on grappling so all the focus turned somewhere else um so i turned my attention elsewhere to develop my skill elsewhere right um but it was about staying ahead of the sport and staying ahead of the development and the the popularity curves in the sport. And in trying to stay ahead, I just put together a complete system because I kept facing everybody, and their skill would be somewhere else, and then it would be somewhere else. And at the end of, I'd say, 15 years, I had a complete fighting system that would stand up to any system, any martial art, any adjusted martial art.

Right, so grappling, striking, on the mat, no matter what it is, you're able to manage it. Right, and at that time, was it true that most of the fighters, they would be good at one of these things, but you always knew what their weakness was, right? And you could kind of exploit that to your benefit. Yeah, because in the beginning beginning it was singular martial arts.

It was, you know, I'm a karate guy or I'm a wrestler, and I'm going to use that skill set as a base, you know, to gain control. Right. Yeah, and I would just study. I didn't know any better. You know, to me, I didn't know what you weren't not supposed to do or what your system was supposed to have. I had no rules.

So I was just surviving. So every other system is like, don't go to your back. I'm like, why? Don't go to your back. I'm on my back. If it's easier to move, I'm going to go there. So I just rewrote and wrote my own system. And I used all the strengths of the other martial arts that were around me

and that oftentimes were being tested against me. So a lot of these martial arts skills that I learned were, I'm going to fight so-and-so. They're really good at this. I'm like, well, let's study that. What does that mean? And then we'd figure out new stuff around that and we'd add that to the system. Yeah, interesting. And I'd go out and kick their butt and defeat them.

They'd be like, well, it works. Right, right, right. We'd keep it in the system. Right. And within that is kind of an appreciation for really trying to figure out what your own personal weaknesses are, right? And focusing on developing them as opposed to,

well, I'm a striker, I'm a grappler, so I'm gonna double down on that because that's what I know how to do. But instead to say, well, here's where I can develop where I'm weak that would make me this super athlete and be able to perform in all the various, you know, capacities that I need to, to go to the top. Yeah. That's the harder journey. Yeah. The facing all the weaknesses. Well, no one wants to work on their weaknesses. Hey,

let's show up and all work on our weaknesses today. Yeah. But that's the real stuff. You know, that's what, that's what they really do. Right. You know, and I would, I would just have guys who'd be like, before we knew, I'd just be like, listen, put me on the wall, put these gloves on, punch me in the head. They're like, what are you talking about? I'm like, well, I got to figure this out. Nobody's got a theory.

I was like, so punch me in the head a few times. I'm like, I'm going to work this out. They'd be like, you're insane. I'd be like, but somebody's got to figure this out. So rather than like finding the coach who knows how to do that, you're just going to figure it out on your own. Well, I also figured out nobody knew. Because once I started my journey and I started teaching

and I started sharing and I started giving, because I thought that was the natural process, to learn more, you give more, I started realizing people didn't know. And I started, people would blow up and interrupt and change know change the information i'd be like wait a minute how do i get out of the wall when someone's punching me in the head like that's all i need to know right right but they would be distracted by other things because everyone what i realized and it was really weird is i was just on a journey to survive and you know it was changing martial arts at the same time yeah yeah

that's what's interesting resistance in all sports and changing martial arts at the same time yeah yeah that's what's interesting resistance in all sports and all martial arts about the whole thing because no one knew what was going on and it was so new and different right it was it's it was so different back then to what it is now so when you look at the sport today and you see these guys like i mean the money aspect aside and the media aspect aside, like what's different about the guys that are fighting right now? Like what's different about Conor McGregor versus what was going on when you were competing?

Nothing. Nothing. Zero. Yeah. But these guys have to, in order to win now, they all have to be super athletes, right? Yeah, no, no. I mean, here's the beauty of fighting. And I think it

holds true in some other sports. Everything works when you're a super athlete. Everything works. You hit somebody and you're like 190 pounds and you hit them flush, you're going to smash them. So as you become a super athlete, it's really easy to rely on things that work, to go down these other paths, to stop developing yourself, to stop on these journeys of exploration that really make you, you know, invincible or undefeatable or a master or an expert in your field. That's the hardest part. I want to go do what's best and easy and fun. I want to knock people out. But the truth is I suck at some things. and those are all the

stuff that is like should be the study you know should be the focus of the whole moment because when you get there and you're not ready then you're gonna freak out and lose energy and focus and you know then the machine everything falls apart right but ultimately that's what you i mean that's what you have to do to grow right yeah if you want to continue to grow you gotta focus on that as a human being you don't want we don't want to you know you have to do to grow, right? Yeah. If you want to continue to grow, you got to focus on that stuff. As a human being, you don't want, we don't want to, you know, we want to take the fat pill. We want to take the easy, we don't, we don't, people don't want to get pushed in a wall and punched in the head

to figure out something. That's way too much. Yeah. Someone just give me the answer for God's sake. You need a punch in the head. I'm done. I'm out of here. You're like, I haven't been punched in the head since like seventh grade.

So. All right. So you go on to be, you go on this crazy winning streak, fighter of the decade. You fight from 94 to like 2010, right? Essentially undefeated. You have a couple, there was a couple of times where you didn't. I went 10 years undefeated. 10 years undefeated, right? Essentially undefeated. You have a couple, there was a couple of times where you didn't. I went 10 years undefeated.

10 years undefeated, right? Yeah. And ultimately you retire in 2010 after, was it Nate Diaz or Nick Diaz? Nick. Nick at the end there. Put a good whooping on me. But he's sort of like the next generation coming up, right?

Yeah. And then you had one fight like a year ago, right? Well, the grappling match. A grappling, okay. I did grappling, yeah. Why did you come back and do that? It was totally like left field. You know, I had, when I was 16, I had this, my right leg went numb, sort of dragging behind me.

And I went to the doctor and they said, listen, you got a spond, sort of dragging behind me. And I went to the doctor and they said, listen, you got a spondylolisthosis in your L3. So you need spinal surgery. And I was in a group home at the time. So I was like, I don't know what to do with this. And my group home doctor, dad took me to a chiropractor. And he's like, listen, it's a common injury,

but you're gonna have to care for it the rest of your life. Like you gotta keep the muscle built and you gotta do these goofy exercises. So it gives me these goofy exercises. So I do them for 30 years and then it stops working. And I have the worst back pain you could ever imagine. And I'm considering surgery and I'm like Mr. Natural. Like I'm not into anything cutting my body open.

So, you know, I'm going down this deep path of surgery. And finally I consult with one of my friends and he's like, you got to see my friend, Dennis. He's like a magic man. And I go and see him in like an hour. He fixes my back. Whoa.

And he's like, what's wrong with you? And I go, what's wrong with me? I'm like, and I asked him all about it. And he's like, listen,

you're putting too much energy into it. He's like, you, you know, you just need new exercise. Your body's changed. Everything's changed. And he's like,

let me restructure you. Let me give you these new exercises, send you on your way. And within two weeks, I'm like climbing mountains and kick playing and kickball tournaments and all the stuff that i wanted to be doing but i was in too much pain to be doing you know for like three or four years i'm doing and i'm like this is amazing and so i'm putting out in the universe like i want to do stuff with my body and bring phone rings as japanese promotion they're like is there any way you could wrestle Sakuraba? Who's my oldest nemesis, like for 18 years, you know, at this date.

And I'm like, maybe like, I just tell him the story. I'm like, I just fixed my back. And I'm like, I'm so fired up about it. And I go, let me go to the gym and try it out. And I go in a three days later, I call him back and I go, I could probably do this. I go, we're going to have to modify the rules a little bit because it's not good, but I think I could do this. And then I went and did it.

So you went and did it. It was a draw, right? It was a draw, yeah. Yeah, 10 minutes draw. Yeah. That's cool though. So you were 45 at the time? 45.

45, right. So you're 47 now? Oh, I think I'm still 45. You're still 45? I'm 46. 46. I'm 46. All right. Well, this is super interesting to me because I have sp'm still 45. You're still 45. I'm 46. 46. I'm 46. All right.

Well, this is super interesting to me because I have spondy also. Oh. Yeah. And- It hurts, right? The pain is not that bad. I was first diagnosed with it maybe in 2010 or something like that. And I'm 51 right now, but I was in the midst of like training really hard. And I was like,

I didn't have any pain at the time. And I was like, and it was a chiropractor who diagnosed it. And I would go to him and I still go to him and I get traction and, you know, he adjusts me and things like that. But then at this year, 51 is like the first year where I've started to really feel my mortality in a way that I haven't. I have some pain on the left side, like sciatic nerve pain, and a little bit of numbness on the top of my left foot. And I'm looking for some new and different things to do. So I'm really interested in what Dennis had you do. Yeah, go see Dennis. Yeah. Is he out here? Yeah, he's you do. Yeah, go see Dennis. Yeah.

Is he out here? Yeah, he's in Beverly Hills. Oh, he is? Yeah. So tell me what, yeah, hook me up with him. Tell me what some of the things he was instructing you to do. Well, he said one of my core things is just, as you know, instability. You know, it's not connected, so it's not all structured,

so it's over-fatiguing all the time. So when I went in, I was pretty S'd out. Like I was, my back had gone out bad. I think I was at all these appearances lined up and I couldn't, I couldn't get off the, I couldn't get off the ground. It was the first time my daughter had seen me like that. So I was like, nah. So, and he's basically like, listen, you know, you've built all these muscles to support you with the crooked thing.

He's like, we got to release all that stuff, kind of restructure you, rebalance you. And then he's like, let me show you, you know, he's like, you just got to get that tiny, tiny muscle on top of your, you know, right on top of your hip. He's like, you just got to get to that muscle. And he's like, let me show you how to do it. So is it like a lot of so as type stretching to lengthen out the well what i for me it's about keeping my hips square and strong so i do basic you know warrior poses and postures and you know lunge dances and stuff like that to keep everything aligned but literally for me i just need to keep that little tiny muscle that sits above your

your hip bone in the back right i just need to keep that strong tiny muscle that sits above your hip bone in the back. Right. I just need to keep that strong because it's not because of the misconnection. Right. So if I keep that strong, everything else feels great. If I skip three days, I literally feel like my back's going to go out and I feel like I'm going to lose a thing here and it's going to pinch and my right leg's going to go numb.

Yeah. So you have no numbness now. No, I got nothing now. That's great. But if I miss, like I laid on the couch for two days because I was so tired from the yard work, and instantly today, pain, and I got tingles in my leg. But what I'll do is he showed me the exercise to unlock it,

to help release the pressure on it. And so like I'll get on a table, I'll get in like a sprinter stance, and I'll like try to pull my heel back and release my hip to stretch out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that will take the pressure off and kind of release it if I have it go out. And I get like this, I'm like, reject team. Right. Yeah, you're all like lopsided.

It's terrible. And I think, you know, for me just running for so many years. Yeah, running is a tough one because of the impact. Well, yeah. And you develop certain muscles and others atrophy and you get that imbalance. And then with the spondy, you start favoring one side over the other. And then that leads to running injuries. There's a whole cascading effect.

He spent an hour releasing the rest of my body tension, which was two other guys with a couple of machines and some other weird stuff. And I thought at one point I was going to tear my knee out and I was going to crap on myself. But every three minutes he'd be like, stand up. Let me look at you. All right, get back down. Let's adjust this side. Because every time he'd figure out where the tensions left

until there was no tension left. And he's like, okay, you're straight. You got no more tension. And he's like, now keep that area strong and you're straight, you're cool. So how long did you have to kind of do this protocol before the pain alleviated? Instant.

Oh really? Instant, no, it was, you don't understand. I was laid out like trying to explain to my daughter, no, I'm gonna be okay. She'd never seen me like that. So it's been nine years, you know, or at least be okay. She'd never seen me like that. So it's been nine years, you know, or at least five years that she's never seen me this. Wow. Yeah. Right. No, you know, I'm crawling around the house. Don't touch me. Don't touch me like jacked.

So it was just a big wake up call. I was like, what am I doing? Like either I'm going to get this fixed or I'm going to figure out an alternative. Yeah. And he just happened to have the alternative. So yeah, you a hundred percent got to go see him. Cool. So you feel good now? Yeah. You think you'll ever, you'll, you'll do another fight? No, no, no. I didn't enjoy it. Yeah. I mean, I enjoyed the competitive side, but I didn't enjoy the training. And then it was last minute, you know, it was like the fill in last minute guy. So, um, there was just, it wasn't the experience that I wanted, although it was the experience that I wanted. What did you want? What did you think that you wanted? I just wanted enough time.

I wanted to really train. I wanted, you know, four weeks. You know, like I wanted a real training session because I'm old. You know, I don't train. I hike slowly and I do yoga and, you know, I dance at galas. Like training is very minimal now. So let's talk about now. You're doing all kinds of things now.

But, you know, probably is the main thing that you're doing kind of mentoring and coaching other people? Not just in MMA, but kind of like life coaching, right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don't actually have any people in MMA, except for if you are one MMA company owner. But yeah, it's mainly business stuff. Right. I, I, I, at the last phase of my career, that had been the Strikeforce era, which would have been the last five years. So 2005 to 2010, I became a league owner and, you know,

I was the broadcaster. I was the consultant. I was really ahead of, of the Strikeforce brand. And I was also like the main event guy. So what I did to kind of get the tools to do that, because I mean, it's ridiculous. Like I was trying to lead this whole league against the UFC and get on network television as I took a mentor and he had learned, he was 35 years into product development and asset management and mechanics in Silicon Valley. So he's like a like, a product's a product's a product. And he really taught me how to look at products and businesses and IPs and lifespans. And he just taught me about business. I didn't know about business. I went to college

and prison. I learned the basics. The University of Leavenworth. I didn't get a solid one. So this was another level of education. And by that time I had a brand worth, I don't know, like $5 million or something. And I was just entering into a phase of, you know, huge opportunity. And that was ownership in the league and these other roles and stuff. And so I just, in the midst of training and doing all the stuff I was doing, I was like, wow, I learned this stuff too. And I went down that journey. doing i was like wow you're learning this stuff too and i went down i went down that journey and for three and a half years i i took an education on how to asset management project development uh product development um and then at the same time i was running a professional fighting team

right uh and it's all just become now one unit uh except for nobody's fighting each other professionally we're all just business professionals so what's going on with strike force now we sold it to the ufc yeah we made it made a super nice exit and um yeah and so right so now you've you've taken this acumen that you developed as a result of that experience that is sort of that's the plus and the plus minus equal right like working with that guy in silicon valley who taught you all of these things. And so what is the, when you take somebody on to mentor them in the capacity that you do,

like what does that look like? Like walk me through that experience. Well, everyone's at a different place normally, but most people are obviously looking for something, some change, some moment, some divination. Usually they're coming in search of something. The hardest part is finding out what they want or what they're looking for. Although they'll tell you, hey, here's what I want to do.

Or I would imagine they're stuck often, right? Yeah, usually you're stuck and you're like, what do I do? And you don't know how to change or transform or make that, make that movement. So usually I get that, I get them in some role or get them there. And then I sit down with them. I figure out what their roles and goals are like, what do they really want to do? Cause we all talk about stuff and we're all doing stuff,

but do we really want to do it? Like, is it really what we want to be doing? And then once I can figure out what they really want to do, you know, then I can kind of help guide them and, and pull out of them what, what that dream is, I guess, what that thing is, you know, what, what they really, really, truly want to do, what their purpose or what they believe their purpose is. And what do you think it is about your unique experience that, that makes like your, your tutelage, your counsel a little bit different than what somebody else might somebody

might get from you know i don't know tony robbins or somebody else who kind of is in that space uh i i mean i don't know to be honest with you i just i can feel what people and people tell me what they need and then for some reason i can help visualize and create systems to capture that um and yeah people trust me i think because of my honesty you know both in my story and um you know i live this is my life like this is what i do right right right i think tony tony and i i think tony robbins and i share that like i think he came from a place of you know wow we got to help some people like this is important you know we shouldn't let people do or live like this or experience this because it sucks but most people either don't know what they

want or think they know what they want, but it's not really what they want. But here's the thing, people really truly know what they want if they sit down and think about it. Yeah. And we don't sit down and think about it. Well, because we're living, we're living,

yeah, we're scared. We're scared. And because we're scared, we're living reflexively. Yes. And the devil we know is better than the devil we don't. Yes. And we're taught to, and we're raised to seek comfort and luxury and security. And these things are impediments to

the things that we really want in life. And also the things that truly will make us happy because it's not about those other things. So the process of getting somebody to that place requires them to be, well, I think it goes back to trust. Like they have to trust you. They have to feel comfortable with you and, and you have to create that space that allows them to be vulnerable so that they can tell you what those fears are. Right. I mean, that seems to be the only way to kind of at least address it so that you can move beyond it. Yeah. Yeah. And for some reason, I mean, I see it because when I read my story, I'm like, what on earth? This is the most ridiculous stuff that you can imagine.

But I have all those experiences, every single one, you know, including people are like, well, how do you know about business? I was like, well, my first business experiences, I would get hired to sit at the end of a table at a multi-billion dollar negotiations by billionaires. So at some point they could be like, yeah, Frank Shamrock right here to champ. University of Leavenworth. That was it. Nothing else just to name me and to show that I was there. But I was sitting there as a young man going, hmm, all right, well, this is how business is done. This is intriguing. And learning about business. And that was how I now understand, well, wait a minute. This is what business is about and this is how it's done.

And these are a lot of the principles that are followed at the highest level of business. Right. Your story is about pain and determination and self-responsibility. and determination and self-responsibility. These are things that a lot of people, there aren't that many people who have had to confront the kind of obstacles and pain that you had to. And I think most people really just aren't that disciplined. They didn't go to a dojo in Japan.

They didn't have the hard knock experience that you had growing up. And they also didn't have the kind of structure that you were lucky enough to find yourself in later. So how do you convey to these people the lessons that you learned in a way that they can hear it and then implement it? Well, I believe everyone can.

Yeah. The only thing I did was change my mind like that's it i went wow i i can't do this i screwed up yeah like i just changed who i what i truly believed about myself i went wow i'm i'm i am a criminal and a liar and a scumbag like all that stuff they wrote i'm truly that person and And I'm going to change it. Like that was it. And I think most people don't ever sit down and write that down. I've done a lot of good things and I've done a lot of bad things.

But it's like, I think when you face them and you move through them, I think when you're prepared to address them, I call it the secret life. Everybody has the life they live out here, and has you know the life they live out here then everyone has the life they live inside right and when you when that life that live in yeah that life that they live inside is is often marked by fears we talked about but also shame it's inside because they're afraid if they ever told anyone about that they would lose all their friends and all that sort of thing so i know in my own experience, like you have to own that and you have to, you know,

in order to move past it, you have to shed a light on it. And that involves talking to someone like yourself or confiding in another as a process of, of, of dismantling it so that you can grow and transcend it. Yeah. And even just addressing it. For a lot of people, it's writing it down and going, wow. Yeah. Double underline, wow. Yeah. I mean, I'm a long time in recovery, and they call that in 12-step the inventory.

Yeah. Yeah. You got to take an inventory. Even for the brain, if you try to learn something, there's a million ways to learn. But the minute you write it down, the minute your brain connects with the mechanics of creating and writing, it is so imprinted and it has so much value to your brain.

And that's why writing, we talked about writing. It's like when you can write, when you can document, when you can note, when you can theorize, it's like that's the stuff where your brain's going, and growing and changing. And that's the stuff you want theorize. It's like, that's the stuff where your brain's going, and growing and changing. And that's the stuff you want to support, right? You know how hard it is to sit down and write, I'm a loser, I'm a criminal, I'm the worst father ever.

Like, I'm just like my dad. You know, I really am those people. Like, that's really hard. And then to make a change to that? But why not? Do you know what I mean? Why not? Well, I think there's the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves,

and there's the facts of our experience. But some people become overly connected to these stories. They get attached to, well, I'm a lousy dad and I'm a this and I'm a that. It becomes a self-perpetuating cycle, right? It may be the truth, but it also becomes a pretty accurate predictor of future behavior.

So I think the trick is once you're writing it down and you're honest with yourself about that, how do you interrupt that cycle, right? Yeah not easy it's not easy that's where your community comes in and your pluses and your minuses and well let's talk about the people we've been talking about the plus minus equal thing we didn't actually describe exactly what it is yeah we kind of have it's it to me it's just it's how i live my life you know it's it's the system that i I function on. And for anything I want to accomplish, I find that plus.

Someone who's done it, someone who's accomplished it, someone who's successful at it, someone who's happy doing it, whatever it is. And I present myself to them. I make myself humble. I try to learn from them. And sometimes they say no. And then I find my equal, my competitor, my neighbor, my friend, my whatever,

the person I want to equal my business to or equal my presentation to or my thing to, and I find out what they're doing. And I befriend them or I embattle them or I somehow become aware of them. And then I find a minus. I find somebody to teach, somebody to guide, somebody to take my pluses information, my equals information, and empower them with and i just work that system on everything i do from marriage to business to you know make a film you know start a psa i'm doing a psa i'm gonna do a psa you know what i called up a guy who's done 500 psa's i'm like buddy here's what i need

what are you doing a p who's done 500 PSAs. I'm like, buddy, here's what I need. What are you doing in PSA? On mental health awareness. What inspired you to do that? One of my clients in my talent management business is bipolar. He's one of my best friends. And I met him in broadcasting and he's just one of the best broadcasters in the business.

But he's bipolar. You know, he's up, he's down, he's crazy. He's locked up, he's not. We're looking for medication. It's been a 10-year journey with him. And I just met him and no one was caring for him. I was like, well, dude, we can't leave this guy behind. We got to bring him with us.

And he's been super successful. He's been super successful, but part of his journey is becoming a social activist and communicating what he's doing and how he's doing it. Right. I've seen him. He's manic. Well, yeah. Anybody who's had any experience with somebody with bipolar, it's a rollercoaster ride. Yeah, it's a roller coaster ride yeah there's a lot of uh you know education that needs to be done uh not just for those who suffer but for you know everybody out there to kind of

understand what that condition is all about because we demonize it in a way that i don't think is fair no no and it's challenging because in other cultures it's celebrated you know in other cultures it's it's it's at least um recognized as being different you know to me they're just different he's just different but he's different yeah he's amazing but he's different you know and it's like we got to do different things for him uh but with those different things and with you know some nice lifestyle adjustments i mean he's extraordinary he's killing it. Part of our PSA campaign is we have this stigma around mental health.

And people are like, they turn their back. They don't turn and go, what do you mean? And hey, I've got those calls at 3 a.m. and 4 a.m. and 5 a.m. You know what I mean? Who is this guy? I've got those crazy calls. But at the same time, he's just different. And if he had another disease or another illness, we wouldn't think twice about it.

We'd be there supporting him at 4 a.m. or 3 a.m. We'd be getting his medicine at 5 a.m. But because he's a little quirky, we're like, ah, goofball. You seem like such a sweet guy. I have such a hard time picturing you beating the hell out of people. This is the most challenging part. You're gonna love this.

So I had the hardest time hurting people. Like it really, truly weighed on me. And I couldn't understand where it came from. So actually my first professional fight, you know, no rules fight, I lost it. Because I couldn't put the hammer down. I couldn't break the leg. I couldn't break the arm. You know, I couldn't, I couldn't put the hammer down i couldn't break the leg i couldn't break the arm you know i couldn't i couldn't kill him like i was like ah this is not you know this is not in my soul you know even though that was my dream yeah so i had to leave that thing overcome that and

sit down with myself again and go wait a minute i up a sword, I'm swinging it in battle and I'm not gonna down anybody and they're gonna down me. I'm like, this is the craziest thing in the world. And what I realized, I was just traumatized. The experience of abuse and all the stuff and the fear. I was just traumatized by the violence and I hadn't accepted what it truly was.

And I hadn't accepted that that was my real role. I was gonna hurt people. That was my job. And once I did, I was like, well, this is really messed up, but I have to hurt people. That's my job. And then I got really good at it. And a lot of people got messed up.

Well, yeah, but now it doesn't seem like it's your nature though. And like I said at the outset, I'm friends with Mac Danzig and I have the same thing with him. I'm like, he's such a nice guy. And then I watch him fight and I'm like, who is that guy? I was like, whoa, that's what he does?

Like, I can't even imagine. And I think that's something I would imagine is kind of across the board with the best fighters. Like they, they, they're working out their angst and their frustration and their aggression and all of that in the training and in the fighting. And when they're walking around in their life, they're cool, you know? And it's, it's the guy with the, you know, tap out t-shirt and the half pulled low. Who's like, thinks he's all that, you know, who's like aggressive.

I'm like, no, the real fighters aren't like that. Yeah. You know? Yeah, they get their fill. Yeah, so they don't need to. Cool. Well, we gotta wrap this up here in a minute, but I thought it would be cool to kind of leave people with some insight, perhaps a little inspiration

or some tools for somebody who is in that place of fear or living reflexively and is not happy and perhaps can't see their way out to the next thing or is disconnected from what it is that they really want to do or the person that they really want to be. And as somebody who has overcome so much and is living such a huge life in so many different ways now, you know, what kind of, you know, what would you impart to that person? I would start with looking inside and writing it down. And for a lot of people. Do you still do that, by the way? Every day.

So what's your tactical process? and writing it down. And for a lot of people. Do you still do that, by the way? Every day. So what's your tactical process? I start every day when I wake and I come to consciousness, I instantly begin my prayers. And I thank God for waking me up once again and the day. And then I go into anything I think is important to talk to God about in the universe, and then I meditate and I visualize what I want my day to look like. And that's before I get out of bed, every single day.

Yeah. And then that's how I start. You seem like you're really good at visualization. Yeah. I can see the stuff, but it's because what I put in my brain is the stuff and nothing else. And I think that's where people go astray

is they put all this other crap in their brain when if they really truly want something, that's the only thing that should be in their brain. That's all you really need. That's what will make you happy. That's your dream. I don't think we're selective enough with what we allow through that sieve,

especially with our mobile devices. We're polluting ourselves with a lot of content, but not a lot of intentionality about what that is and what it's actually doing to us mentally, emotionally, and spiritually. Yeah, it wears out your spirit and your soul. But if you want to change it, all you got to do is turn that stuff off and get in yourself and take some time and meditate.

The best meditation is when you can add something physical to it. We can create some martial rowing, swimming, something where you're really connected. And if you can add the earth or the universe, if you can add something of substance to it like it just gets you know better and better um but it's in those moments you know where you're in your brain and you're really pushing and you're in other settings yeah that you go ah oh yeah that's right these are my dreams yeah and then write those down and then find the people, find the community and tell them.

Do the plus minus equal. Yeah, and tell somebody. Here's what most people are afraid to do is to tell somebody. I'll tell you all my dreams because I'm actively pursuing them and crushing them. And if I don't, we're gonna celebrate in the loss or the change or the whatever.

Most people never go, here's my dream because they're afraid it's not gonna come true. Right, well, once they do that, then they're on the hook. And then they own it. You know what I mean? And they can't back out. Yeah. But say it, own it, write it, start it, get your plus minus equal, live by honor, respect, and discipline, be a good person. And all of this stuff will happen for you because people will like you.

They'll be pleased with you. They'll be pleased to be around you and to help you. I'm with you, Frank Shamrock. I would add one thing to that though, which is patience. Yeah. Got to be patient. Meditation and journaling have been instrumental in my own life. And I began journaling, I was using the artist way, like right when I got out of rehab in 1998. And I continue to do it to this day. And I remember doing morning pages,

journaling every single day for a long time, just confused, you know, but it was a way of expressing that confusion. And I think it was necessary to get to a place of eventual clarity, but patience is super important. And I think especially, particularly important in our quick fix life hack culture where everybody wants to snap their fingers

and make it happen overnight. So patience. And I think if you're an example of anything, it's that we all are capable of so much more than we allow ourselves to believe. And if you're willing to do the work and be patient and show up and give all of yourself to something, whatever it is, that amazing things can happen.

So thank you. My pleasure. Yeah, cool, man. Great to talk to you. Same here. Awesome. So if you want to connect with Frank, the best place to do that,

I mean, you got a website, Twitter, all that Frank Shamrock. Yeah, I am at Frank Shamrock everywhere. And yeah, if you have an ask, you can send it to askfrank at frankshamrock.com. Cool. And I'll try to fill your ask. If I can't, then I can send it to askfrank at frankshemrock.com. Cool. And I'll try to fill your ask. If I can't, then I'll let you know I can't.

Yeah. And pick up his book, Uncaged. Which I still have to read. I haven't read it yet. You're going to love it. Honestly, I'm a book nerd. I read a thousand biographies. So when I wrote one, I was like, no,

I'm going to write the real deal. Yeah. Like no fluff, no eh. Like I'm going to write what really, truly happened. fluff, no, like I'm going to write what really truly happened. Well, most sports biographies suck. They suck. And they're all like- Because they're trying to advance the brand of somebody who's in the twilight of their career.

And I hang out with them like, no, dude, this didn't happen. So I wrote it and I was like, okay. I remember reading all those books as a young man and thinking, that's what it's like. And I went, I want to write a book so that they know that's what it's like for real yeah so that's what i wrote i wrote a book for that kid you know or the young man who you know is on a journey so hopefully like we're all on a journey i know right and hopefully it just continues on and on that's the blessing cool that's the blessing well great talking to you thanks man thanks brother peace all right you guys i hope you enjoyed that conversation do me a favor give frank a shout out on instagram or twitter or both at frank shamrock and show him a little bit of love

as always check out the show notes for links and resources related to today's conversation on the episode page at richroll.com and And again, the brand new and revised edition of Finding Ultra is now available. Pick it up where you buy books, paperback, audio book, ebook, Kindle. If you can't find it in your nation, in your country, we have signed copies available on my website, richroll.com, and we do ship worldwide. Also, The Plant Power Away Italia comes out soon, April 24th. It would mean so much if you would pre-order your copy today. And if you're a woman, please make sure to check out

the second most recent blog post on my website for a chance to win a free spot in our upcoming retreat in Tuscany, May 19th through 26th, 2018. It's a $5,000 value. Contest is only open through April 24th, so jump on it now. If you would like to support my work, please subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts or on whatever platform you enjoy this content. That really does help us out a lot. Only takes a second. Doesn't cost you a thing. And you can also support the show on Patreon at richroll.com forward slash donate. I want to thank everybody who helped put on the show today. I do not do this alone. I can tell you that. Jason Camiolo for audio engineering, production,

show notes, interstitial music, and taking my calls in the middle of the night. Michael Gibson for videoing today's podcast. Blake Curtis for editing the show in video format. Also for creating all the graphics that go along with today's episode and theme music, as always, by Annalima. Thanks for the love, you guys. I'll see you back here in a few days with author Alex Hutchinson. He is the author of the amazing new book, Endure. This one's really great. I think you're going to enjoy it. But until then, hope you guys have a great week, great couple of days at least. Treat yourself well. Be kind to other people. Love yourself and love others. Peace plants.

Namaste. Thank you.