The Rich Roll Podcast - From Celebrated Pop Star to Olympic Hopeful: Cody Simpson On Chasing Big Dreams, Finding Himself & Lessons Learned From Sport & Stage

Episode Date: September 21, 2023

Imagine a young singer-songwriter of global acclaim—someone like Justin Timberlake or Shawn Mendes. Except this star also happens to be an elite athlete with an Olympic dream. It sounds like fiction. But this is the true story of Cody Simpson. Superstardom within reach, Cody Simpson put his guitar down and traded Hollywood for the black line at the bottom of a pool with one singular goal in mind: to compete in the Olympics. It's the story of a chlorine-soaked little kid who became a global star. He traveled the world, performed before massive crowds, modeled for luxury brands, even acted on Broadway and in movies and television. But something was missing. Out of an instinct for survival, he proceeded to do what many would consider unthinkable. He walked away from all of it. He couldn’t shake the feeling of what might have been had he not forsaken the Speedo for the stage and decided to do something about it. World-class competitive swimming is a sport in which the elite never dare to take more than a month off here and there. Not only did Cody return to this sport after a dormant decade, he quickly began to excel beyond any reasonable expectation, clocking world-class times in the 100-meter butterfly. Today we dive into the deep end of the pool and plumb Cody’s story. We trace his arc as a musician, what he learned as a performer that now helps him as an athlete, the whys and hows behind his Olympic dream, and how you can achieve two massive and wildly different goals in a lifetime. Note: This conversation was recorded back in May of 2023 on the cusp of Australia’s World Championship Trials. Alas, Cody narrowly missed qualifying for that team but is back in super-focused training. I coaxed Cody into performing a song at the end which you are not going to want to miss, so be sure to stick around. Enjoy! Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube Newsletter Sign-Up Today’s Sponsors: Timeline Nutrition: timelinenutrition.com/RICHROLL Roka: roka.com/RICHROLL AG1: drinkAG1.com/RICHROLL Athletic Brewing: AthleticBrewing.com On Running: on.com/RICHROLL Indeed: Indeed.com/RICHROLL Plant Power Meal Planner: https://meals.richroll.com Peace + Plants, Rich

The Rich Roll Podcast. It's like if Justin Bieber was also an Olympic athlete, you know? I suppose so, yeah. I find that there are similarities though. One taught me that what you put in is what you get out. The work equals improvement. Sometimes you sort of just have to jump off the deep end and then find your feet.

Once you're out there, you're never going to feel ready. My first race back was terrible. Failure isn't failure, really. Failure are just... It's information. I want you to imagine, conjure in your mind, a talented, young, handsome pop star. Someone like maybe Justin Bieber or perhaps Shawn Mendes. Except this particular pop star isn't just a musician.

He also happens to be an incredibly talented athlete, an athlete so extraordinary that a couple years ago, he decides to put down the guitar and walk away from his fast-paced Hollywood lifestyle to get back in the pool for the first time since he was 13 and pursue with all his focus, all his energy, a lifelong dream of competing in the Olympics. It sounds like fiction, but believe it or not, this is the true story of Cody Simpson,

a young Australian who went from this chlorine-soaked little kid sharing his musical talents on YouTube from his bedroom to, in rapid, almost overnight fashion, global fame, a dizzying, disorienting period in which he traveled the world, performed before massive crowds, acted on Broadway and in movies and television, modeled for luxury brands, dated celebrities, only to discover in an empty promise, a life out of alignment and integrity with his higher self. Something was

missing. Out of an instinct for survival, Cody proceeds to do what many would consider unthinkable. He walked away from all of it. He left LA and moved back home to the Gold Coast and began to reconnect with that 13-year-old Cody, the kid who loved to swim, was good at swimming. He couldn't shake wondering what might have been had he not forsaken the Speedo for the stage and decided to do something about it. I cannot overstate how radical this is. overstate how radical this is. World-class competitive swimming is a sport in which the elite never dare to take more than a month off here and there. But not only did Cody return to the sport after a dormant decade, he quickly began to excel beyond any reasonable expectation, clocking world-class times in the 100-meter butterfly, and at this point is 100% legit in the running to make the Australian Olympic team for Paris 2024. Now, as a former competitive swimmer myself, I can tell you that what he is attempting to do, what he is doing is absolutely unprecedented.

I wanted to know more. I needed to know more. So when I found myself in Australia this past spring, I tracked him down and here we are. A couple more things I wanna add about Cody before we get into it, but first. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. With that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because, unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices.

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I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. Okay, Cody Simpson. Today, we dive into the deep end of the pool to plumb Cody's story, his arc as a musician, the difference between art and fame, what he has learned as a performer that now helps him as an athlete, the whys and hows behind his Olympic dream, and how you can achieve two

massive and wildly different goals in a lifetime. Now, I'll be honest, I wasn't sure what to expect with Cody. His story is certainly wild, but what kind of person is he? And all I will say is that I left this conversation super impressed with him, not just as an artist and as an athlete, but as a young man of copious talents I now call friend who has grown up, matured into someone who knows who he is, understands what's important to him, isn't afraid to take risks in pursuit of his dreams, and exudes an experience-earned wisdom that belies his age. Before we get into it, two quick things. First, this conversation was recorded way back in May on the cusp of Australia's World Championship trials, which we discuss. Alas, Cody narrowly missed qualifying for that team, but I can tell you he is back in the pool

and super focused in his training. Second, I coaxed Cody into performing a song at the end, which you are not going to want to miss. So please do not skip out early on this one, people. Okay, this is me and Cody. Let's dig it. Thank you for inviting me into your beautiful home. Thank you. Yeah, it's an honor to meet you.

It's good to have you here. Yeah, it's cool. I've been following you for a while now and it's been quite a kind of dramatic unfoldment in so many unique and interesting ways that I want to explore with you today. So you're of that generation where you start as a very young kid sharing your songs online, right?

Like originally on MySpace, that's how it all started. And then eventually YouTube. I was literally discovered on MySpace. That's nuts. Which is crazy to think about now um and and youtube but but i was posting like songs i was writing when i was 11 12 like on myspace music and that was that was where i was initially contacted by a producer in the states um how old were you uh 12 when i was first like contacted i didn't go end up going over there till I was sort of

13 and then um 14 when we moved uh but originally I was 12 and when I started to see some kind of get viewership and all that stuff and I just had started for fun because I saw people were doing it I saw kids were doing it I I saw people just posting these handicap videos of them playing and singing and playing guitar. And this is sort of all well understood now. I mean, that's what happened with Justin, right? I think it was the same with Shawn Mendes even, right? Like, so there's a,

now there's sort of a tradition and a track. Now it's kind of like the only way you are seen, I suppose. And it's a little bit more democratized now in the way that anyone can just sort of jump on and start building a fan base and everything. Which is cool. Which is cool. But I was sort of at the beginning of that YouTube generation of kids

that went on with the guitar and got discovered. And I was the first one out of Australia as well, from my knowledge. Right. But, and that's sort of, I was flying over to the States and asked to sort of start cutting demos and took some meetings with some labels who wanted to meet in New York. And I'd never been out of the country before.

So it was all very new to me. And I came home for, I was telling you this the other day, like came home for six months, didn't really hear anything, went back to swimming training. And then basically got a deal off on the table. It was sort of contingent on moving to LA. And fortunately enough, my parents were willing to take me over there

for I think what they thought would only be a little while. But that turned out to be us relocating there full-time once the train started moving. And you have two siblings, two younger siblings, right? Yeah, they came over with me. I was only 14, so my sister would have been 13. My brother was seven. And so to have them do that with me

and support me through that was pretty wild. Like, I don't think every family would do that with me and support me through that. It was pretty wild. Like, I don't think every family would do that. And I saw like my parents definitely weren't super well off or anything. Like they helped us get over there. And then for a while, it was sort of like up to me to sort of make it happen. Right, so on some level you're supporting the family?

Yeah, yeah. And your mom was your manager, right? No, she wasn't. But they were involved in the beginning, just making sure I was safe and all that. Like I wasn't getting eaten alive. Yeah, well, you're not, I mean, you're 13, you're not going over alone.

No, no, no. And, but we were all super new to the business. Like we didn't know anything. And as Australians too, you kind of like, you feel like everyone were all super new to the business. Like we didn't know anything. And as Australians too, you kind of like, you feel like everyone's telling the truth all the time. You're in these meetings, they're all telling you everything you want to hear. And then you realize like, it's all bullshit.

Yeah, yeah. And you realize a couple of years later, oh, that was not true or, you know? Yeah. So you wake up to that stuff pretty quickly. Your parents seem like really good parents. Yeah. Your brother is like a concert pianist.

Yeah. And he's like, is he writing a musical or? He's a very good classical pianist. He is, he's now, he's just moved to London. He bought himself a one-way ticket to London. It's like saved up for this ticket and for a classical pianist. He is, he's now, he's just moved to London. He bought himself a one-way ticket to London. So he saved up for this ticket and for a few months rent and said see you later to us basically. Wanted to go and work in theater over there.

And he's just got himself, he'd done a lot of sort of local production and lighting and stage management and stuff like that. And he's now working on an opera on West End, like this Italian opera. And he's like, gets to get dressed up and go out and move props around and do all this. And he landed himself that job

within like eight weeks of being there. So he was like me a lot in that way, where he's just like, would go out and just make stuff happen for himself. And your sister's like a host and does a bunch of stuff, right? Yeah, yeah. A lot of sort of TV. Right.

Fashion, beauty, that kind of thing, yeah. But it's interesting that all three of you are kind of in the creative arts. Your parents were both athletes, swimmers. Yeah. Like they weren't like making albums and writing operas. No, no, no. Yeah.

He's, yeah, my parents, my dad writes music and he sings and plays guitar. And that's sort of what, that's where I got it from. I think that's where we, my mom is not highly musical, but they never pursued anything of the sort in their lives. So I think seeing us all take those passes interesting for them. Yeah, that's wild.

And so what do you, when you reflect back on how you were raised, the way in which your parents raised you, like what it feels like they must be very encouraging to pursue your dreams in whatever form that comes in. Like how did they kind of support you on the day to day? Yeah, well, when they first, when we talk about us first moving over there,

they said that if and if we came back in a few months, they said, worst case, we taught you to follow your dreams and your gut. Because I was so passionate about wanting to go over there and pursue this and take the opportunity I was given in music. So they said, worst case, we've taught you that you can do that. And I'm just glad they had an open enough minds to allow that to happen.

And it was good too, because they never were like pushy, even in swimming, like they never, they were encouraging, but never pushy, which was good. But when you wanted to get back in the pool, your mom was not so- Yeah, when I wanted to get back in the pool, mom was trying to stop me, prevent me from doing it. You don't want to do that, look what you're doing.

You want to come back, like she knows. Yeah, she knew, So she was shocked. But I think when she just saw the way I talked about it, she was like, well, I can't stop you. I haven't stopped you before. Right. Yeah. So you've done so many things as an entertainer. We're never gonna be able to talk about all of that,

but you did, you must've been 15, like when you went on tour with Bieber. So you were like the opening act for him. 15, yeah, when I started, yeah. I mean, that had to be bananas. Yeah, so it was only sort of a year or two into being over there. Right.

Just signed with Scooter Braun, his manager. The Swifties are gonna to be very upset. Let's see. And he, and so I started working with him and his team and got to know Justin a little bit. And, you know, who obviously at that time was the biggest young act in the world. And just got put on tour with him for i just just released my first

album right through um through atlantic through warner and and pretty much jumped straight on tour as his opening act for for how did that even that came together because of scooter yeah yeah yeah yeah and just just um it made sense, you know, being the, I was a couple of years younger than him, but coming up as sort of another young artist. And then so him and I sort of developed a relationship beyond that, ended up working on sort of playing music together and just, you know, develop sort of a loose friendship

for a while. music together and just, you know, develop sort of a loose friendship for a while. And yeah, it was wild to be sort of thrust into that, at that point, yeah. Going from six months prior, I was playing like shopping centers, you know, like I'm doing arenas around the country and we ended up joining him on his Australia leg

and some of Europe. And so that was wild. Right. Yeah. How long were you with Scooter Braun? About three years, three, four years. And that was when I pretty much made changes to my whole situation

at the same time from management to record label, pretty much asked to be let out of everything I was involved in. Once you were with Scooter or after leaving him? After, yeah. Right, yeah. So this is what's really- When I went, oh, I was still with him probably

for the first, went independent label wise for about 12 months and then ended up changing management situation as well after that just because I felt like I wanted a whole new sort of approach. It was, looking back on it now, I think it was a bit drastic of me, but at that age, it's sort of like, I almost felt sort of trapped in. It's a weird thing, cause you like you almost feel trapped in what you've built for yourself.

Right, so Scooter Braun, you know, notorious hit maker. I'm sure he's saying to you, look, I know exactly the building blocks here and I can get you to be the next Justin, do these things, live your life this way. Here's how we're gonna do it. It's all very strategic. So when you say prison, meaning the confines of like

what that path was gonna look like for you as an artist? Well, and Scooter though was to his credit, he was supportive of like the musical direction I wanted to take. I don't think he was necessarily pushing me into a cookie cutter. Like a boy band. Yeah, yeah. He was like, I want you to, you know,

you should play your guitar and you should, you know, he was sort of, he was, if anything, pushing me in a different direction, say to Justin, who was the, you know, pop star doing choreography and doing all that stuff. But it was more just within me that I sort of say, I want a different, I don't want to be in this circle oh you know and it was it was more it was more an act of just rebellion on on my part because i wasn't happy with or i didn't i felt like a

different person to what everybody thought i i was just just just music wise. Cause I sort of started to grow up really fast and had a lot of personal changes. And at 15, at 18, 19, you start to like a lot of different things than you did when you were 15, 16. And that happens pretty quickly or at least it did for me. And discovered all this other music

and realized I wanted to sort of make big shifts from where I was. And now it was almost like this pendulum swing one way and then it goes all the way the other way. And then now I'm sort of back in the middle. Right. And a little less like. You were on Atlantic, right? You were signed to Atlantic. So walk me through the decision to not continue to have a relationship with a big record label and to go independent. Because I think it speaks to a larger issue around rights of entertainers

and how you think about ownership in your own career. Like now you own your masters, right? Like, is that true? Like you have control over your library now, which is very unusual. My later catalog, yeah. Yeah. My stuff sort of since, not my Warner catalog, but yeah, what I've done since, yeah. I have sort of control over what I'd like to do that, whether I, you know, keep growing it and you sort of, you know, get your own publishing deal based on, you know, the masters you own. I mean, you know, get your own publishing deal based on,

you know, the masters you own. I mean, I sort of co-owned masters say with, my own masters say with, you know, certain collaborators that I've worked on the, the, the albums with, but yeah, it's not owned by a major corporation or anything. And so that decision was about, you know, the creative aspect aside, like just from a business point of view and the way that the music business operates, how does that, how did like, what, how did that come about? At that point, I wasn't thinking about the business aspect as much. I wasn't really as business minded or as financially aware as I am now. Sort of having to almost being forced to, especially once you do go out on your own,

you're sort of forced to learn how that all works. And I- Yeah, I get a sense of you feeling like maybe, you know, like don't hold me out to be the guy who made like the best decision, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe I would have done it a little bit differently. Yeah, I can't say I would have done it all the same way.

Then, but, you know. But I think long-term, it will be to your benefit to have those rights. But I also got to zoom out a little bit and go. Did you like drop a grenade on your career unnecessarily? Right, right. Sometimes I think about that. Yeah.

But as you said before, when you look back in the rear view, it's like, it all makes sense kind of. Right. The way it all unfolds. And I think I just got to keep zooming out, thinking about where I'm going in the future as a musician, it's all going to be to my benefit eventually to have ownership of a larger portion of my catalog.

And yeah, at that point, I wasn't really thinking about the business side of it. I was concerned with the way I was viewed creatively and as a person and all this stuff. But I think now I feel much more comfortable within that, within myself. And also I haven't given it a whole lot of thought lately,

cause I haven't really, I've just been so wrapped up in something else. Sure. But the thing is, it's always there. Like swimming can't always be there because there's a biological clock ticking. Yeah. But there isn't as a creative and as a performer,

like, you know that when you're ready, you'll be able to devote your energy to that. You know, the other thing is like you started acting, you did Broadway, you did a bunch of TV stuff. So when you see, like, I don't know, like when you see Timothee Chalamet in Dune, do you think like, hey man, if I had like, not taken this detour, maybe that's me? Like, do you think like, hey man, if I had like not taken this detour,

maybe that's me? Like, do you harbor those sorts of thoughts at all? Or are you just like, I'm cool, man. Like I'm so happy. The swimming detour? Yeah, like are you grounded and just that convicted in what you're doing right now that that doesn't, those kinds of thoughts are not part of.

I have moments. Yeah. I have moments. That guy? Yeah. That guy's doing? I have moments. Yeah. I have moments. You're like that guy? Yeah. That guy's doing that? Come on. Yeah. I could have done that better than that. I have, I don't know about better than him, but yeah.

I have moments for sure. They're short, they're fleeting moments, but they're there. And sometimes you go, but I think no matter what decision you make, you're gonna wonder what the other one would have been like. But I also know that I have time. Yeah. And that's what gives me comfort is that

I've got time to- You're doing this thing. It's like when Jodie Foster went to call it, Yale or Natalie Park, it's like, this is your version of that. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I know that, say, even if I stopped swimming next year, like I'll be 27 and I can, you know, look at,

or plan on whatever it is I wanna sort of stop pursuing from then, it's gonna be, I think it'll just be music. That's sort of my primary interest in post swimming life is being a musician and touring and making records and stuff. And that's not going anywhere. Yeah. I said this to you at breakfast the other day, like I have a special place in my heart for,

you know, high performance in general, we can all learn from people who are excelling in their respective disciplines, but there's something really cool and unique about people who find a way to achieve legend status in a multiplicity of kind of specialties. And I was sharing with you how I had Leslie Patterson on the podcast the other day,

who is the Oscar nominated screenwriter for All Quiet on the Western Front and the untold story, I mean, there's articles about it, but I think it's underappreciated is the fact that she's a five-time world champion in off-road triathlon, like won three XTERRA world championships. And she used her prize money to keep the option alive on this project.

I had no idea. It took a decade to get to the screen. And I think that that's super interesting because in my generation, like I'm your parents' age, I grew up in a time where you kind of had to pick, like, are you gonna be an artist? Are you gonna be a creative type? Or are you gonna be an athlete?

And like never the twain do those two things meet. And I was talking to my daughter who's 19 the other day and sharing with her about Leslie and how I was gonna talk to you. And she's an artist and she's a painter and sculptor. And she's like, dad, it's not like that anymore. Is that true? Do you think there's a permissiveness around that

in a way that might have been different when I was growing up? I think that boundaries have sort of slowly been disintegrating in a way. And I think that's due to people doing things that I think otherwise or previously weren't considered possible or too much to do or excel at in one lifetime, right?

Like I think, and that's sort of when I was jumping back in the pool was sort of one of my, not motivations, but something that I found interesting that I could possibly inspire people to sort of let go of those mental constructs of like, if I'm this, I have to only be this and only this forever. And it was fun challenging that in my own life.

And then also it has been fun challenging that in my own life, you know, about just seeing what's possible. That's what all of this has sort of been about for me is just seeing what's possible. And then also hopefully inspiring other people or at least challenging their ideas about what's possible too. Were you very conscious of that when you made that decision or is that something that kind of percolated up in the process of you getting back in the pool and exploring that?

I think it happened in the process. I think that me getting back in the pool was just that I felt like I couldn't stay away from it anymore and had this burning desire to do it. And just like the whole thing was about the what ifs were gonna be too much for me in the future to not have a crack and to live with those regrets or what ifs of not having tried. And then when I started and things sort of started to develop and progress, I realized I sort of became a little bit more self-aware about what I was actually doing.

And when I started to realize that I didn't have anyone to look to or a blueprint to follow about how it should be done, realizing that no one in swimming had really ever done that before. People had sort of won or made the Olympics and then won again 10 years later after having a bunch of time out, like Anthony Irvin or these guys that had these super interesting stories, but they kind of stopped at a super high level or at the top and then kind of like took a bunch of years off and then came back,

got back to the top. Whereas I don't think anyone sort of stopped young at like an age group level and then decides 10 years later to try and make that elite level. Yeah, there's no blueprint. There's no precedent. Nobody has ever done that before. I remember when Pablo Morales jumped back into the pool, like he's my mate, he's my buddy. I went to law school with him. We swam together at Stanford. He was two years older than me. He's an OG, man. Watching him

with no cap and goggles like. I know, no goggles, no cap, old school, almost like Mark Spitz style. Winningest NCAA swimmer ever was sort of anointed to be this extraordinary Olympic champion. And I think he kind of over-trained that was it 88? Was it Seoul where he didn't shockingly, he didn't make the team. Right.

Even though going into that Olympic trials, he was favored to just, you know, take everything. Yeah. And hung it up, went to law school. We finished law school together. We studied for the bar together. And then he got back into the pool and then did what he did at the following Olympics

and shocked everyone. And that was at the time like super radical. And thinking back, like how old was he? He wasn't that old. He would have only been, what, early 20s still? Yeah, I think maybe 29, something like that. Which was old then. Super old, super old.

Because there was no money in the sport at that time. And so when you finished college, when you were 21, that was it. Yeah. Nobody progressed beyond that. Now it's very different. And to your point, yes, Anthony Irvin, there's a few others at the peak of their powers,

took a break or stepped down and then made a comeback. But you stopped at 13. Yeah. And you were very successful as a 13 year old, but it was unclear how far that was gonna go. It wasn't like you were on a Michael Phelps track. Like you were winning state championships and you were probably like top in your age group.

What was it like? Yeah, and I suppose there's a lot of, countless swimmers that are good young and then you never hear of them again. Or that maybe good until they're 16 and then disappear or whatever. I mean, I was, yeah, like I was winning sort of national age group titles there for a few years in a row, particularly in butterfly and freestyle events. And then, but that, you know, and obviously that's an indicator of, I suppose,

some level of talent or feel for the water or whatever you want to call it. But it's not necessarily a guarantee. You're going to grow up to make your national team or go and compete at that level. So I suppose coming back to it, So I suppose coming back to it, like it's funny thinking back now to kind of like the blind confidence that I had coming back into it when not really realizing,

I think that the mountain I was undertaking trying to climb. And a lot of people, I was sort of met with a lot of, are you sure? Even from my own mom and who swam for Australia. And so I understood like- Both your parents were swimmers at a high level. And I think she was sort of like,

you know, you've got this, you've built this life for yourself in the last 10 years. You sure just want to like put that all aside to go and stare at the black line for, you know, hours a day and put yourself through all that. Like it's grueling. black line for hours a day and put yourself through all that. It's grueling. I didn't really have any reservations about it.

I just knew it was what I wanted to do. And I think it's important to point out for people that are watching or listening who don't have familiarity with the sport of swimming, swimming is a sport that is just all about the grind. And it's very unusual for a swimmer to even take a couple months off, to take a year off. Are you kidding me?

Like it's not something that people come back from when they do that. And it's also a sport where you spend just years and years and years developing, those years between 13 and 20, whatever, right? But nobody has really popped in at 22. I missed all those foundational years. Yeah, you missed that.

What's interesting about that is, yeah, so you didn't have any of that. You were still 13. Like usually the hardcore- That's where I come from, the 200 fly. Double workouts and all that kind of stuff starts around 14. Like that's when it starts to get hard.

And so you skipped that part, but you were able to pop in it. So it was like 22, 23 when you got back in the water? 22, I was starting to pop in every now and then to USC. Like that's, I think when you were talking about- And Dave Salo. Dave Salo. But again, it was very much, it wasn't,

I hadn't decided to come back yet. I was sort of like, I like to swim, I'll just jump on the side here and see how it feels. And I hadn't swum at that point and probably swum more than a couple hundred meters in like nine years or something, eight years. And so I started to do that. Then with them, when I was in town

and I was still traveling a fair bit for work and then COVID happened and I- No touring. No touring, no nothing. Had already been simmering on this idea for quite a while, probably since Rio, to be honest, because I went down to Rio and watched friends of mine that I grew up competing with, competing in the Olympics and succeeding and doing all this. And it kind of, I saw my old coach down there and we had like this small little chat about it,

about the idea of it that just sort of sat with me and sparked something that simmered for years until I couldn't take it anymore and had to start to change my life. It's not even like unfinished business. It's like business you haven't even begun. Yeah. Didn't you also perform for the queen

at Buckingham Palace at the Commonwealth games. Yeah. The most recent Commonwealth games, right? It was for. You had to be there and see all the athletes and there was something about that as well. Yeah, it was the 2018 Commonwealth games, torch lighting.

And the 2018 games were on the Gold Coast here where we are, which is where I grew up. And I think because of that day, being on the Gold Coast here where we are, which is where I grew up. And I think because of that, being from the Gold Coast, they had me go over and perform and sung like, I still call Australia home and did all that in the grounds of the Buckingham Palace and got to meet the Queen and do all that. And then four years later, I was competing in the next one. Right.

And at that time in 2018 was, yeah, hadn't even really considered the idea of swimming or really jumping back into it. So it's kind of wild when I was getting up on the blocks four years later. Right. Having known four years ago I was doing what I was doing. That's so wild.

But there must've been this sense when you're performing there as a singer songwriter thinking, yeah, but I'm an athlete too. Like nobody's seeing me as an athlete. Yeah, and no one knows. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No one knows that I can do this and that. Yeah, and I think that was a little bit part of it too. It was almost like a thirst to prove myself

knowing that it's almost like you can say you can do all this and that as much as you want. You can say, oh yeah, I could have been this, or I could, you know, people do that all the time. But I really wanted to, I think, prove to myself and to others that I just wanted to see. You were for real about it. Yeah, that I was for real about it. Because I think people, I knew people were kind of like, yeah, but. Right were for real about it. Yeah, that I was real about it.

Cause I think people, I knew people were kind of like, yeah, but. Right, well, even Dave Salo, didn't he say like, yeah, he told, didn't he tell Brett Hawk, like, yeah, this isn't gonna work out. Yeah, yeah, Dave Salo told him, David Marsh told him that, which. Oh, Marsh, yeah, Marsh.

These guys are like, for people who don't know, like these are the legend coaches in sport, at least in the States. And David sort of since, David Marsh sort of had since said, or at least even a couple months after that, he sort of said, no, this is the second time in my life I've been proved wrong

or that my judgment wasn't correct. And I don't think it's that he thought that. I'm not sure. It was like, he'd said it was way back. But he said, I think it was maybe about a swimmer that he didn't think would succeed in NCAAs or something that ended up being quite good. Like Cesar Cielo or somebody.

Maybe. Brett took me down. This was still very early. I'd only been swimming for a couple months. Took me down to do some sort of technical stuff with David Marsh down in San Diego. And I think it was more that David, I think I just said to Brett,

are you sure this is, I think he should just stick to what he's doing. Like, he's had too much time out. This ship's kind of sailed. It's gonna take, it's not gonna be possible to get to, you know, where I guess this kid wants to go. Right, and in fairness,

the first time you jumped into a meet, you swam like a 5,100 yard fly, right? Yeah, that was, and that was like before I trained or anything, it was sort of like when I was doing those little one-off sessions at USC, and they sort of said, well, there's this little meet, the invitational coming up. And I, at that time was just like, yeah,

I'll get in and have a go. And I was so unfit and, you know, swam horribly like. Yeah, 51, I mean, 51 would be, you know, good at a master's meet, but that's not getting you anywhere. Not as like a 22 or 23 year old. And so that was months prior to COVID and all that when I, it was sort of like the first time I'd raced or done anything of the sort in a long time.

It was almost just a bit of fun at that point. But I remember sitting with Dave Salo actually going, I want to go 51 in the 100 long course meter fly. And he kind of just, yeah, I could see him smoking. Yeah, you understand what that takes, you know? And last year I did it. So, yeah. It's just like wild to think back actually

sitting here with you. I don't often do that retrospect. It's important to reflect back actually sitting here with you. You don't, I don't often do that retrospect. It's important to reflect back on that. I mean, I think, you know, it all happened pretty quickly also, not without its lumps and 51 long courses, like 51.0, right? Or 51.1?

One seven. Yeah, I mean, that's fucking legit, dude. Like, and what's exciting is that to the earlier point of you in this unprecedented way, jumping into the pool at a later age, and having missed that decade of the grind, most of the swimmers at the highest level who all of them endured that decade of grind

are now trying to hang on like and stay enthusiastic about something that's just so hard to maintain long-term because you have to live this monastic lifestyle. And you know, when you're 24 or whatever, you pretty much know you're gonna have some gains you put in the extra effort. There's always improvement to be had,

but you're not really gonna get a massive performance leap. Like you pretty much know kind of where you are in the pecking order, but for you, there are no rules. Like the potential is, you know, the sky's the limit in terms of like what you're now capable of. And I know you're coming off a huge block this past year and you're about to, you know, compete and you're at the beginning of your taper.

And that's gotta be way more exciting for somebody like you than even for Emma, your girlfriend, who's been in it for a long time. Like they have a pretty good idea of probably where they're gonna end up. And for you, I think that's just totally unwritten. It's one of the mental advantages that I think I have is that there's so much unknown still for me in the sport. And that sort of just keeps me going.

Cause I go, I just don't know where I can get to. Maybe I've swum my fastest swims. I don't know. If I have, you know, that is what it is, right? But you did, you fulfilled that commitment that you made to yourself to try. But I made that to myself. And I, you know, wanted to represent Australia

and I wanted to get that, we call it our dolphin number, which is basically the Australian swim team are called the dolphins and everyone that gets selected to compete gets a number. And so there's been, I'm number 838. So there's been 838 swimmers compete for Australia in the history of, I think it's been since 1901 or something like that. And so that's something really sort of monumental and special

for an Australian swimmer to get their number. And I got that last year when I went to the Comm Games and my mom had one. And so just sort of be able to have that together. And that's something that having those little things is sort of makes me feel like no matter what happens in the future, like I've sort of have these things to show for what I've sort of committed to and what I wanted to prove to myself, which in a way I've done part of that already. I still feel like I have a lot more I wanna do,

but I'm really glad that I've been able to sort of uncover that, or at least prove to myself that I could kind of do what I suspected I might be able to with the right work and stimulus and stuff. I want to dig a little bit more into that in a minute, but here we are, spring 2023. What's the big meet? I mean, by the time this goes up, that meet will have passed. Yeah. Talk about like kind of where you're at now and how you're thinking about next year

and Paris and the Olympics. Yeah, well, I guess I'm almost three years into a four-year journey that I embarked on. I started having only the plan to swim for four years. Anything beyond that is still unknown to me. I don't know what I want to do or how I feel after Paris, either the trials or the Olympics or whatever, like kind of depends on how I go and how I feel then. Yeah, but the whole plan is to be ready for 2024. So everything I'm doing is sort of with that in sight.

There's our trials coming up in a few weeks for the world championships this year. So that's sort of the next major team to qualify for in the, between now and the Olympics. So do my best to get on that one. And everything else is kind of leading up to, between now and the Olympics. So do my best to get on that one. And everything else is kind of leading up to about 13, 14 months. So this is still like a build year.

Next year is the real year where, you know, the rubber meets the road. Pretty much. And the super grind starts, but you've already made a Commonwealth team. You defied expectations. You got, so for people that don't know, in order to go to the Olympics,

you have to get first or second at your trials. Yeah, yeah. Third place. And under our qualifying time. So if you're second and you don't know the time, you're probably not going. Right, that's not gonna be a factor though. But often for, at least for the strokes,

the 100 meter strokes, they usually wanna take two per event for the relays. And this is a lot of relays now with the mixed, the mixed men's and women's relays and all that. So they want, I think they want to, they'll want two men for a 100 fly, two men for a 100 breast, et cetera. Right, so even if you get third, there's still a chance

you could end up on a relay or as an alternate. No, third's not going. Third, you're out. Yeah. Okay. I just didn't know if it was the same. Even if you're on the qualifying time, which the Australian qualifying times are significantly faster than the FINA ACOT times.

The Australian qualifying times, they figure out based on what made last year's final at Worlds. So like the eighth time. So basically they're picking, they're only taking you if they feel that you can make sort of the international final or whatever, which is, you know, it's probably, aside from I suppose the USA,

it's probably the hardest swimming team in the world to get on. Yeah, that's a debate. The Aussie versus US. Aussie versus US, that'll always be. Legendary, yeah, rivals. So you're kind of sitting in this third place position. You got third at your trials last year. You almost went to the world championships though,

because there was something about somebody was gonna not participate in that event, but then he changed his mind. Yeah, he ended up doing it. So you ended up on the Commonwealth team where you got fifth, but you're in the mix, I guess is the point that I'm making, but there's no guarantees either way. There's a lot of fast guys. No, I'm sort of on the precipice of, or the cusp of qualification for, at least from my events, probably sitting right on the cusp of them. So there's definitely no guarantees. And do you feel that you have a leg up

in terms of how you manage stress and pressure because of the things that you've done as an entertainer, where you've put yourself in kind of high stress situations and you have like a little bit of experience that maybe allows you to handle that stuff with more calm and grace? Probably. Yeah.

Yeah, I tend to find I can and do thrive in high pressure situations. As you say, having done many different kinds of things and been in many different kinds of, I suppose, high pressure situations, or at least doing things with a lot of eyeballs on you. Being up on stage, doing all that. Being up on stage in front of a lot of people,

being on TV shows and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, I've found Broadway. Coming back into the sport, like I wasn't, I was, part of me had that fear and nerve based around just being new and not having the experience and the race experience and confidence, knowing that when I did get up on the blocks, like people would be watching. Even at like local meets and stuff.

When I first came back, I just always felt like, yeah, right. Eyeballs on me and stuff. Now it's, I think I've been here long enough where it's a little less, I feel like a little less scrutinized, but I was definitely prepared for that just through the life experience that I've had. Vice versa, do you feel that your career as a young swimmer when you were 13

and having to be in a high stress situation, even as a young person helped you when you started getting up on stages? Cause I feel like I'm here, I gave this speech the other day and I had to do it in front of a lot of people. And even though it's been many years since I was a swimmer, like it is, it does, it felt like finals.

It felt like, you know, you get up, you're a little nervous, but it's that excitement. I know what this is like. I want to perform well, et cetera. Like there's a lot of overlap, I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that, oh, it taught me a ton as a kid, even just carrying that into my life as an artist

and a musician beyond my swing as a young kid was prepared me for, well, one taught me the correlation between sort of the what you put in is what you get out sort of mindset, the work equals success or work equal, at least equals improvement. But it's different in the creative arts.

You can't, you can't grind a song out. It's not like doing a hard set. Like you gotta be in a place of allowing and almost surrender, right? To like, let that come in, which is antithetical to the mindset of the swimmer. Who's like, if I push hard, I know I will have these gains. Yeah, yeah.

I find that there's, I find that there are similarities though, at least from my experience, trying to improve as a guitarist or trying to improve as a vocalist to say, go on. The technical stuff. To go on, to do theater, right? Like to do things like that.

Things where the reps pay off. Yeah, like where you sort of push, push, push for a period of time so that you can let it sort of happen when it's supposed to happen. So that the second nature thing can happen. Right, when you're racing at your peak, you're not using your brain. Yeah, exactly.

You rehearsed it so many times. So you can think, think, think, think, think so that you can not think when you don't have to. And I think that's the same thing for, at least for performing or playing a song, say it's something difficult that you've been wanting to learn. I was, I don't know if I said this at one point

or if someone else did, if I heard it, but I like the idea that a slow growth stage will lead to a quick burst of blossom at the time. Many slow growth stages will lead to a quick burst of blossom. I've found that that's very true for swimming. When you get that breakthrough, you touch the wall, look at the time and you get that, when you have that breakthrough, that time drop,

it's like euphoric feeling. Right, but you know the work that you put in to get to that place. And that's, I think that's what makes it so beautiful is what you put in and sort of grinding through that time to get that feeling and that reward. Yeah. The one thing you got to figure out though, dude,

you got to figure out how to go faster at finals. I know. I know. That's a little bit of a struggle for you. It's funny you say that actually. You've done your research. You're good at prelims, dude, but you got to be ready for the big show.

Yeah. And that's something that's funny. My coach tells me that all the time. And that's something I'm working on is I'm good when I'm relaxed. I'll get up in the heat and go, okay, I can, at least nationally, like I know I can get up and go eight out of 10 and make the final.

And often that swim will be faster than the one where I'm getting in and just trying to tear it. Right. And it's funny swimming in that way as that counterintuitive where it's more effort doesn't always mean faster. Right, I mean, that's a really important perspective,

but I would feel that you would be somebody who would understand that better because I'm sure when you're performing music in front of a lot of people, it's gonna be better when you're relaxed. Yeah, yeah. If you're trying to force it or you're tensed up, it's gonna be a stiff performance, right?

Yeah, and I think that's just something I'm learning with experience, at least in the pool, realizing that it is that way. But I think it's gonna come with more, I'm getting up having swum say, I don't know how many hundreds fly I've done in a race environment, maybe 40 or 50. I'm not sure.

Getting up against guys who've done hundreds of them. Yeah. I'm just sort of trying to get more of that under my belt so I can, but yeah, that is something I'm working on. But the mindset has to be, these guys don't know. Like you're the question mark. get more of that under my belt so I can. But yeah, that is something I'm working on. But the mindset has to be, these guys don't know. Like you're the question mark, you know? And that's like a superpower.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because you pretty much know what these other guys are gonna, you know the range that they're gonna be in, but all bets are off when you get up on the blocks. Yeah, yeah. Because it's also new. Absolutely, and I think that's the way it was coming into last year.

Like my time, at least coming into the trials last year was really not anywhere near like- You dropped from like a 54 to a 51, right? In about- A year. Was it? Yeah, in about 18 months, I think, yeah. I mean, that's like in a 100 meter,

I mean, that's like an astonishing improvement for that period of time. But I think going into last year trials was like 52.8 or something was as quick as I'd been. And I knew I'd have to go 51 to get on the team. And when I did that in the heat, I kind of showed myself I was ready to go there. But this year I have to make an even bigger drop, so.

What was that like dropping back in, moving back here, getting back into swimming with, you know, jumping into the pool with an elite squad of guys and gals? Did they welcome you back? Or was there a lot of sort of suspicion? Like, what are you playing at? Like, come on, man. I think there was some of that.

And some of the people who I'm now friends with sort of said that they just naturally had those thoughts. I think when I first came back, just they didn't know me. They didn't know really what I was doing, what my plan was. So I think some people kind of, at least a lot of people in the public eye and stuff, you know, thought it was like a,

some kind of publicity stunt or something. Yeah. This is for the gram. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm like, swimming, this is not worth it for the gram. Like it takes way too much, you know.

Well, that's the thing. So you can just like pull it together in a couple of days. Yeah. I remember like- But I was welcomed. I was overall. Well, now you swam at 51, so it's legit. But at first I would imagine

there was a little bit of a acclimation period. Yeah, when I first came back, like I'd obviously dropped, I'd obviously gotten to a decent level in a short period of time but it's not necessarily enough to like have people say like you belong here you know yeah yeah yeah this is different than just uh you know photos of you on instagram with your shirt off yeah you know what i mean and in fairness like when i first got introduced to you and i was like checking i was like i don't know man i don't know about this. But like when I look at your social media

or like if someone is to Google you, it's just rife with a bunch of paparazzi bullshit. You dated like, you know, some well-known women. And it's really kind of all about that. And it's easy to project or have a judgment about who you are or what's important to you based upon that. And then when I met you and had breakfast with you

the other day, I was like, oh, this is nothing like, like this guy in reality is nothing like I imagined based upon that kind of public persona or image. Like you're very grounded, you know, conscious, kind, pretty chilled out dude. Thanks. You know? So it's not surprising that you would get some of that. Is it from your experience that a lot of people

that at least have been through that aren't that way? Or, because you and I, I think both probably know a lot of people who have sort of had, been shrouded in that world or that. I mean, I think I'm in a unique position to talk to you because I live in Los Angeles and I know a lot of the people that you've worked with. You know, I understand that culture,

but I also have the swimming background. Like, you know, I can like, I have direct experience with both of those worlds. And I would say that in general, and this is no mystery, like somebody who experiences that level of fame and attention at a young age, they don't, you know, that has a tendency to really impair your value system. Yeah. And it's intoxicating. And now that you say that, honestly, like a lot of the people that I, or at least a

few of the people that I do know or have been introduced to that, that had that, do have a sort of warped perspective. And I think in fairness from my, and correct me if I'm wrong, but you look like somebody who flirted with that. You know, it could have gone the other way. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you were- My parents will tell you.

You were like, I mean, you were living a pretty fast lifestyle. Yeah, absolutely. And to, I reckon, late teens, even early 20s, I was, there were moments I was caught up. Like, I didn't know which way it was going. I think my, and my parents' sort of worst nightmares of like, you know, young sort of pop star kid, like going off the rails was like coming true for them. Yeah. I mean, it comes true for most people in your situation. It's the rare individual that avoids that.

Fortunately. For every Justin Timberlake, there's a hundred other heroin addicts. Yeah, you guys like, I mean, Aaron Carter comes to mind. Sure. So there's just so many horror stories in that sense. And that was, I was just fortunate to, I think I owe a lot of it to my family, to my parents,

you know, because I was at least still close enough to them where I really cared what they thought. And when they expressed that, they felt like I was losing touch a little bit. They'd bring me back to earth. Yeah. So maybe paint like a picture of that moment. You're going to clubs, you're dating women

that are very well known. You're in, you have paparazzi following you around. You're getting, there's a lot of stuff going on, man. A lot of temptation, it's Hollywood. You just have access to it, to way more than you should at that age and way more than other kids. This is like you're like 19, right?

Yeah, yeah. Younger, you know, 17, 18, start to be able to, you know, I was probably 16 when I started going out there. So you just, you know, all of a sudden that age seeing- Doors are swinging open. It can, as you say, be intoxicating. How did you kind of avoid the like drugs aspect of the whole thing? I didn't. You didn't?

Yeah. And that's not something i talk about much but like it's you know definitely present for and for for years it was something that is just a part of being there everyone's doing it you're going out it's fun for at the beginning right right? And then when it gets too much and you see it start to sort of affect your personal life or affect your career, like I was still actively working and doing all that stuff the whole time.

I was still playing music, still doing gigs, doing all this stuff. I mean, I was changing. I definitely had a lot of creative and musical change from being sort of a young pop artist to wanting to be a sort of more of a singer songwriter or play different, at least become a musician. I was sort of like, I was very conscious of it throughout that time, like wanting to set myself up as a musician. And, you know, I wasn't lost, that stuff wasn't lost

on me. I sort of never really disregarded my career or anything like that, but you get caught up for sure. And it's, you know, what I was sort of doing then was, and the lifestyle I was living then, even five years ago, you know, as a 21 year old, it's a far cry from where I'm at now. Yeah. I'm going to, I'm waking up when I was going to sleep. Right.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's almost like you've already had a midlife crisis. Yeah. At 20 or whatever, you know, in the biopic of your life, like I'm- That was the midlife crisis. The opening scene is you like waking up

in some weird house after, you know, a banger of a party and thinking, man, I know where this is heading and I have this other thing. Almost like returning to swimming was almost a defense mechanism to save your life. Is that an extreme, that maybe I'm contextualizing it. I just got goosebumps because I was about to say that in a different way.

Yeah, so explain that. Swimming was like the sobering thought within the haze of the life I was living and was the thing that pulled me out of, even sometimes like in moments, like when you're out, I'm going, it's one or 2 a.m. Everyone's still going. I remember that I want to do this thing in the future.

So I can't like trash my body like this anymore. I have to like start, I have to start pulling myself away from these scenarios and this lifestyle. And I remember there were many nights sort of before I really put my foot down on myself that I would have those moments. And I think if I didn't have swimming or I didn't have the, the desire to do that again, like I wouldn't have had anything holding me back from just sinking, right. You know,

just going full force into, into that Because there would be nothing else that I would have had, nothing else I would have known. So yeah, in a way, as you say, I think it did save my life. God, I don't know what would have happened or where I would have gone beyond that. It was the only thing that I think, aside from my family, like drew me out of it.

Yeah. And I'm so glad it did. Cause like now, and I'm sure you can relate to this, obviously probably not to the sort of extreme perhaps that you're, where your journey took you. But now I just am so much more consistently happy on a day-to-day basis. You know, maybe the highs on it's high

and maybe the lows on it's low, but like I would take this over that any day I think and I think even in the future going back into music like I'd be very cautious about how I did it and and and for what reasons you know I'd probably want to stay based here I'd go maybe go go back and forth to the, but I don't know if I think I'd probably wanna base myself on Australia and just do things on my own terms and live a healthy life and have a healthy approach

to being an artist as opposed to the kind of destructive artist approach. Yeah, the trope, the cliche, you know what I mean? And, you know, but when you're in it, like, yeah, like short of swimming, it is so, it's gotta be so exciting. Doors are swinging open, you're meeting all these people you never thought you would meet.

You're, you know, like you just have this sort of access and to say, you know what, I did that. I don't feel like myself. It's one thing for like, even if a normal person, like a, I don't know, like a, you call them sparkies here, like a sparky, right? Like an electrician who's like, you know what? Like I was good when I was 13, I'm gonna pop in again.

Or somebody who's just living a normal life with a normal job and maybe is a little unfulfilled and thinks, you know what? I'm gonna see if I have some more athletic potential inside of me. That would be an extraordinary story, but the level of conviction and discipline that would be required to step away from that super,

like, yeah, the peaks are so high, right? Yeah. And say, not only am I gonna walk away from that, at least temporarily, like I'm gonna go do this other thing that means I'm gonna be exhausted all the time. I'm gonna be staring at this black line. There's no guarantees of anything.

This is certainly not like a strategic career move to like make money or any, you know, like it's, there's a level of insanity to the whole thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I'd even like, I wasn't coming back into it, like even financially, like I wasn't really set up coming back into swimming like I'd kind of I'd had a few like lean years and was was kind of in a place where I it wasn't like sort of like I'd probably made some bad financial decisions

and had some poor management on that side of things. And, you know, so it wasn't, that wasn't, it wasn't like I was going into it going, I've got all this cash and I'm gonna, I'm good. I'm sure people believe that that's the case. Like, oh, you're with this person and you have this and that, so you must be living in a mansion and you have a private driver and like. Yeah.

But for me, like the reality for me at that, in that moment, just based on the way things had gone and just, I think, miseducation young about money and just have poor sort of financial management and things for a few years. Like I was in a place where I wasn't sort of like, yeah, if I go and swim,

I can for sure support myself for the next four to six years and whatever. Right. Like it was sort of like, um, I was sort of going into it. I didn't have that kind of security necessarily going into it. And, um, and it's, it's funny because yeah, people would sort of think, well, And it's funny because, yeah, people would sort of think, well, if you go and do that, you... It's funny the way it's worked out because it's swimming, coming back into swimming has sort of had actually almost opened up

more opportunities for me outside of swimming. Partially just because I think people thought it was interesting and wanted to be part of it. And, but beginning that, like I didn't know or think that I'd be able to make any money through it, at least for years. You know, I just thought I'd be sort of staring at the black line by myself and have no one care about it

or just think I was nuts for at least, I was prepared for that to be the reality for at least like, you know, two to three years. I also didn't think I'd progress as quickly as it did too. So you're surprised that- I was prepared for like, I was prepared to be shit for like at least two years before like I was anywhere near where I wanted to be.

But the willingness to make that deal, like that's super interesting. This idea of being out of alignment with your higher, better self, or this vision, or this sense of who you are and how you wanted to show up in the world, being tweaked and kind of upside down while show up in the world, being tweaked and, you know, kind of upside down while you're in Los Angeles.

And having enough self-awareness, conviction, and courage to correct that, and now be in this place where you like who you are, you feel good about what you're doing, I think is something that everybody on some level can relate to. Like, I think that there is a more self-actualized, authentic version of ourselves within all of us.

Yeah. And every day we're, you know, we're kind of subconsciously wondering how in alignment we are with that person that we wish we were or whatever, you know what I mean? Yeah. And that never ends until we die. I've certainly gone through, you know, my version? And that never ends until we die. I've certainly gone through my version of that

and I'm not perfect in that regard, but to have that kind of awareness as a young person and to correct that, I think is exemplary and also puts you in a position to speak to like that subject in general. Like, are we really thinking about what we're doing? Like what is our intention and how do our actions line up with like the aspirational version of ourself?

Or what is that dormant dream within all of us that maybe we're ignoring or repressing because life is fucking hard and we're busy and like just trying to put food on the table is big enough challenge for most people. It's so easy to get stuck in and I'm not saying everyone should just go

and quit their jobs and become a movie director or whatever, but like it's so easy to totally ignore it in the quest for a steady salary or this or that. But when you ignore it, you get these little knocks. Yeah. Hey buddy. How are you doing in there? Yeah, you good?

Remember me? I'm over here. I'm still here if you wanna have a chat. And it's often like the kid in you, right? Like the child in you. Sure, exactly. It's the childlike. Follows instincts and follows impulses and listens to himself. Rediscovering that I think is important.

Yeah, it's something beyond the mind and logic that is childlike and uncorrupted by the difficulties of life, that still kind of lives as this seedling inside of us. Yeah, it's a good way of- And I think, looking at your career and your life, the rear view is always 2020, right? Like when you look backwards, it all makes perfect sense.

And when I see your career and the kind of art that you were interested in cultivating and the way that you expressed yourself as an artist, the theme of swimming is like undeniable. Like it's all about water, you know, like even the Prince Neptune thing. It's like, it's all about like water and the ocean. And, you know, your band was called The Tide.

Like it's all like, of course, of course this guy was gonna find his way back to the pool. Yeah, it was a self-fulfilling prophecy. Right, yeah. Self-fulfilling prophecy that was, yeah, as you said, a ticking clock. Like looking back on it now, it all makes sense, but there was a subconscious,

you know, this little subconscious murmur in there the whole time. It was just drawing me back to where I felt most at home or whatever. drawing me back to where I felt most at home or whatever. But talking about that alignment with yourself, I now truly sort of feel that way. And I think for a few years, I didn't feel that way. And I'm so happy I followed it

because I never thought I'd be able to just sort of sit around and say, I'm really, even in the midst of grueling training and doing all that stuff, it satisfies me. I can sit down in my day and go, yeah, I'm at peace with myself and I'm as happy as I've ever been. And I feel like I'm on the path I'm supposed to be on. Sure, it took me a little while to find it, but, and I think now I just have learned things.

Even if I stopped tomorrow and went back to playing music full-time, I feel like I'd be the kind of person I'd want to be going back into playing music full-time. I think I'd have the right approach. And I think Swimming Teachers has taught me that already. Yeah, that's cool. I think that that's sort of the new cool way

to be a performer also. Yeah, like an athlete artist. Well, yeah, it was like, we were talking before the podcast and I was asking you if you knew Mike Posner, like he's sort of on a similar thing. Like, hey man, I did that other thing. Like, you know, I took a pill on Ibiza. Like I know that story.

Yeah. And you know, I don't wanna live that way anymore. And now I wanna walk across America and climb Everest and take people on adventures. And yes, I'm still cranking out songs and my songs fucking rule. Yeah. But I don't have to be that cliche

of what you think a performer's life looks like. Yeah, that's why I admire Jack Johnson so much as well. And why even when I was in LA, I was like, why aren't I doing this the way Jack does it? Or Donovan Frankenreiter. Or Donovan, yeah, who I've had the chance to. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've met him a couple times. Had the chance to play with and chat to.

And the guys have sort of just forged their own path outside of, like, I don't know if Jack's been to the Grammys. He's never there. And whether that is by choice, I don't know. Have you met him? Jack I've met a couple times only briefly um but just watching the way he does his thing um he's just i'm sure he had so many opportunities to to to go other directions and he's always just stayed yeah his own path. I live in Hawaii, I like to surf.

Sure, he was a professional surfer and he has an accident that sort of redirected him into I suppose, creative, more creative path which has obviously worked out the way it has for him and for the benefit of all of us who like his music. But I just admire guys like that and feel like now I have the sort of confidence and self, I have the internal compass

to hopefully keep that head like as when I go back. So that's what a valuable lesson to learn as a young person. Like maybe you had to have those peak experiences to grapple with that and come to terms with it. But to be able to have clarity on that at your age creates a foundation for your success and your happiness as you move forward. Yeah, yeah.

And I feel so grateful for that because I know it just as easily could have happened when I was 45 instead of 25. And I'm just like, it's- Or never. Or never, yeah. I'm so grateful that it has happened now. And maybe I'll have more of them in the future.

Like I might, I don't know what kind of cycles I'll go through as I get older and what more I'll learn, but I feel like I've been able to take a lot from my life experience so far, right? Which is good. You re-shared a tweet the other day. Somebody had tweeted like, hey, remember that kid, Cody, that sang songs?

Like, this is what he looks like now and he's going for the Olympics and it's a picture of you with your cap and got, you're like out of, you're climbing out of the pool or something like that and you're looking super jacked. And you re-shared it and you're like, yeah, that's what I'm doing. I don't, I don't remember, but it was sort of like a funny thing. And I was thinking about that because there's probably a lot of people out there who are fans of your music or maybe were at

a time and then haven't thought about you. And then suddenly they see this and they're like, what the hell is this? Like, I see that on, especially on Twitter. I see that because I feel like, I don't know why Twitter communities is that way, but I'll see that on Twitter a fair bit, whereas somebody that won't have seen or heard from me since from a moment, say eight years ago or whatever, and they see that I'm now doing this and they kind of think it's some kind of weird joke.

Or it's just sort of a mind exploder, right? Because it's so orthogonal to how people think of you. And I think the reason I bring that up is I think there can be a sense in the world publicly that all of this kind of happened with ease or overnight and without an appropriate level of appreciation for the courage of making that kind of decision and the amount of work that you have to put into it.

And I think what happens is that a narrative gets crafted that you're just, you're this unbelievably gifted person. It's all easy. You can just write these songs and then you can just go over to the pool and these things happen and it makes you unrelatable. Like you're this outlier. Like that's cool and I can be inspired by that, but it's not aspirational because I'm not like that. And I was listening to your conversation

with Brett Hawk and he was framing it in an interesting way to disabuse people of that idea and to instead suggest this idea that I love and that I believe in, which is that we all are sitting on top of mountains of untapped potential and the differentiator with you, of course you have talents that's certain. We all have- Everybody does. Levels of talents and different things.

You recognize your talents, you put the work in to manifest them. But Brett said that what people should understand is that you understand your potential and you know how to continually tap into that well and go back to it. It's a renewable resource as opposed to the person who maybe taps into it once and does something and says,

well, yeah, but I'm out of gas now. Like that was my thing and now I'm done. Whereas you're like, no, it's there, it's always there. Like, how do you dip your toe into that current and continue to nourish yourself with this understanding that there's always more potential to be mined. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tapping that source.

So how do you think about that consciously? Does that resonate with you or how does that land? And I think it's just, I think cultivating the resilience not to get discouraged by failure as well. I think there was a moment, my first, I wasn't, as you say, when you think people think it happened overnight or whatever, like I wasn't, I was no good when I first got back in the pool. You know, it wasn't like I just started popping all these good times

and training and doing all this stuff. It was like my first race back was terrible. It was absolutely terrible. And I was so afraid to do it as well. Like Brett put me in some time trial down with David Marsh's group was I'd probably only been swimming. I'd probably been training for about three months at that point and certainly not hadn't built enough

to do a good 200 freestyle, but he put me in the 200 free. And- Yeah, that event doesn't lie. I woke up, yeah, I know, yeah. And he'd been putting, giving me all this sprint training and doing all this. But at the time he thought that I'd be a 200 swimmer. And so he was trying to start training me in that way

and put me in this 200 long before I was ready to do it. And I had so much anxiety about it. Like I woke up the morning of and in this like full body rash, just from, I've never had any kind of physical manifestation of stress or anxiety before in my life. And I've got this full body rash. I'm wondering what it is. I take myself to the urgent care and I'm trying to figure it out. And eventually I can kind of calm myself down and I go and do the race that night. And it's just horrible. Like, and I remember coming back that night

and sort of thinking, maybe this isn't for me. What am I in over my own head? Like, is this, you have that moment of- You're drinking your own Kool-Aid. Yeah, yeah. Was I delirious in thinking that this was possible for me? And it's just, is this gonna be too hard? And I was so frustrated that night.

I think I maxed out on pushups at like midnight and then went to sleep. It's cause I had all this like pent up, like frustration and anger in me and woke up the next day, not sure if I was going to keep going. And then I just looked in the mirror and thought, you know what, I've only given it three months.

Let's give it six. And then after six months, if I'm still feeling this way, if I haven't seen anything else, if I haven't seen any improvement or anything, I think you got to give it six too. Yeah. And then at six months, if I haven't seen anything else, if I haven't seen any improvement or anything, I think you gotta give it six to. Yeah.

And then at six months, or yeah, it was about two and a half months later, I got my first qualifying time to go and compete at Australian Olympic trials. And that was, so that was my first win. And then it started to snowball from there. I'm so glad I saw those little two months, that two, three month period through.

Is part of that, like that panic attack response, a function of the fact that you know, as someone who is a public figure, that whatever you do in the pool is going to get talked about in a way that isn't going to get talked about if you were just an average person, right? Oh, for sure. Yeah. I mean, I wish swim swam didn't- There's the external factors of just who you are that make it different. Yeah, yeah. And knowing that, you know,

I didn't even think about this when I first, when I went and did that little USC time trial where I went 51 short course yards, like swim swam, I did some article about it. And I'm like, I wish they did it because I don't want that to be there. No, not really. Not my guy, Mel, though.

No, it wasn't trashing because I think at that point, people didn't really know that I was swimming or wanted to swim seriously. So just curious that you would even jump into a pool or race at all. Oh, that's kind of interesting. And it's actually not that bad for someone that doesn't swim.

Yeah, if you haven't been training at all, then you can jump in and pop off a 51, like, good on you. Like, if you go and see, you know, Justin Bieber go and just do like some random track and field meet and go like, you know, 11 for like 100. I know, I mean, this is the thing.

You'd be like, what the hell? When I'm describing to other people, like I would talk to my wife and a couple of, I'm like, yeah, I'm gonna go talk to this guy, Cody. And if they haven't heard of you or don't know who you are, I'm like, just imagine, it's like if Justin Bieber was also an Olympic athlete or Shawn Mendes or somebody like that.

I suppose so, yeah, yeah. If Shawn all of a sudden was like on the Olympic hockey team or something, not that I've made the Olympics. One of the other things that you talked about with Brett was this tall poppy thing, like this very specific Aussie thing where we want, we love our underdogs, we want our underdogs to win, but then when they win,

the relationship shifts a little bit. And it's like, don't get too big, buddy. We're quick to cut you down. And I was with- Don't win again. Yeah, like, yeah. Don't win again. Don't win three times.

I think it's heightened in Australia, but it's not unique to Australia. I think it's a- No. There's something human about that. And I was with Ned Brockman the other day who, you know, ran across Australia and is very famous for his mullets. And what's interesting about the mullet that he rocks is that on the one hand, it's authentically who he is.

It's this kid who grew up on a farm and Sparky was an apprentice to become an electrician, like kind of just a bloke, like a blue collar guy. And that's who he is. But the other piece of it, I think is very intentional. Like he maintains it because he understands that tall poppy phenomenon. Like he wants to make sure everybody understands who he is

and that he's true to kind of his roots. So that people are able to kind of meet him where he's at and embrace him. But you coming in with everything that happened in LA. I kind of grew up away from all that. Yeah, I grew up away from the tall poppy thing. Like I come home once a year. You're here and you're in it, right?

Like, does that occupy, like you contend with that or? Yes and no. I think, I definitely think that well you know living in la like people are a little bit more used to just people wearing whatever and you kind of don't really look twice if you know someone's wearing like silver pants or something you know what i mean but like here you'd right at least in the culture in austral like you'd kind of go, so that's different. I've seen Justin Bieber's car. Like that reflective metallic.

Like a chrome wrap, like Audi R8 or something. Whereas here people are like, what the hell? What are you doing? You wanker or whatever, you know? But like, so yeah, it's certainly become more conscious ever since moving back. But I feel like I kind of almost needed a bit of that in my life, over there it can-

Right, yeah, actually it was healthy for you. It was healthy for me to have that at that point. So, and I think now, yeah, I've had just enough of a dose of it to sort of just level me out a little bit. But you're still an underdog. Yeah, yeah. Which is cool. Which is cool.

Yeah. I'd like to always stay the underdog. Yeah, than trying to hold on to the top. Yeah. So you also happen to live with, you cohabitate with your girlfriend, Emma, who just so happens to also be like the most decorated Australian Olympian. to live with, you cohabitate with your girlfriend, Emma, who just so happens to also be like the most decorated

Australian Olympian, like she's for real. So how has like, how has like her experience, and obviously she's, you know, somebody who understands mindset, the champion mindset, like how to achieve goals, all of that. Like, what have you learned from her experience that's allowed you to kind of compress your learning curve to getting to where you wanna be?

Yeah, I guess being with her and spending so much time with her. Well, we first met when she was already in the squad that I joined when I came back. So we met then and we always had a sort of a connection and a magnetism to each other, something we didn't address until after her Olympic feat and when she ended up being away

for another sort of six months after that. And it wasn't until she came back that we sort of connected and got together. But it was always there from when we first met and um i think i think in a in a a good partner you you recognize a lot of qualities that you yourself i think either would like to possess or already possess. And I think we sort of had that with each other. We recognized that we had sort of similar approaches to life and what we do. And at the same time, I just saw that,

I saw the way she handled everything she's doing. And when we first met, like she hadn't yet done what she did last year or in 2021 in Tokyo. But I could see that it was gonna happen just the way she approached each day. And sort of since, I guess, being in a relationship with her now and living with her now,

I'm inspired by the way she, she's probably the most level-headed athlete of that caliber that I've ever come across. And how do you account for that? Like, how does she maintain that? She's extremely, one, extremely, extremely close to her family, extremely grounded. And two, I think is never satisfied.

Like, it's funny when she, just to see her perspective on what she's done. Like she didn't, she doesn't even know, like you ask her how many Olympic medals she's won. Like she probably knows now that she's heard a lot of other people say it, but I think when she did it, she didn't really realize. Are they in the house here somewhere? No, they're not here.

She's got a few other things around, but even last year, like she became the most decorated Commonwealth athlete of all time. Like not even Australian or just of anyone. And then just being Australian, we're swimming. I mean, you're like, it's like Michael Jordan.

I think that's true. I'm pretty sure that's the stat, but she finished the game and she didn't know that. She just sort of has this really interesting approach to the sport that doesn't sort of involve thinking about accolades or- Intrinsically motivated as opposed to extrinsically. Yeah.

And it's so calm through it all as well. So I think it's hard to appreciate if you're not Australian, the way that your culture is swimming champions. Yeah. She's more decorated now than Ian Thorpe and Susie O'Neill and these people that, you know that at least you grew up looking at as just the- That's wild. I'm friends with Michael Klim.

So you wake up and you don't really think about that when I look at it, but- Michael Klim shared with me what it was like- Klim is awesome. Yeah, when that was at its peak insanity and you know, there were just like basically like, you know, 10 story high billboards of him and his teammates like on skyscrapers over Sydney.

And like, it was just, you know, like- Swimming's not like that anymore here. It's not. I think at least the way- Thorpe was like the last gasp of that like kind of superstar era. I think so. Like around Athens, Thorpe, who was,

Ian Thorpe and Grant Hackett, that era of swimmers. I think it sort of was at its peak, obviously, around Sydney Olympics being what it was in Australia. And sort of every athlete that was successful in Sydney Olympics was an absolute mega star. And then I think that sort of carried through to say Athens and then beyond that Australian swimming, I don't think was as sort of,

I suppose wasn't as at the forefront of people's minds. Well, now it's on you, buddy. But- You as an Australian Patriot to bring it back, you and Emma. Yeah. But I think that's changing a little bit and has been changing the last few years,

just with the success that they had and that she had in Tokyo and people, it's like in the news again and it's in the newspapers and all that stuff. But yeah, I can't imagine what that was like then because those guys were on top of the world at that point. Yeah. Yeah. Just the idea of making manifest a dream,

whether it's a creative dream, an athletic dream, like anything, like how do you think about tackling difficult problems, weathering the challenges and the setbacks that inherently come with that and like kind of staying in the game, like to go from being like, I could be at any party in LA right now and I'm choosing to stare at a black line. Like there's a level of

like discipline and like self-regulation there that I think is intrinsic to your success. Maybe that's God gifted, but also I think it's something that you can develop a capacity for. but also I think it's something that you can develop a capacity for. You can develop it, absolutely. And I think I did develop it slowly. I think over a couple of years, like building up the, I suppose, confidence to make the changes and sacrifices I made

to get back in the pool or to change my lifestyle. I think that the work ethic side of it for me has always been semi-natural. The capacity or willingness to, I guess, quote unquote, do whatever it takes I guess, quote unquote, do whatever it takes and to prepare for, and never like under preparing for anything, always doing what's necessary, has been something that has come naturally to me, I think. Do what others won't.

Yeah, yeah. Either it's come naturally to me, I was just sort of taught through my youth, I guess, swimming and then everything else, sort of how to do that. Either way, it's in me now. And I suppose, yeah, developing the awareness that failure isn't failure, really.

Failure are just... It's information. It's information. Yeah, exactly. It's information. It's a bad race or a bad session or something is just as important as a good one. And I think just developing the capacity for resilience, I think is important.

But the only way you can do that is by putting yourself in uncomfortable situations or forcing yourself to do things that you just didn't or don't think you can do. And I think that was part of what I think Brett Hawk was really good at with me in the beginning was that, and he talks about it now, was that for the first six months,

he said he was just trying to break me all the time. I remember it was probably on the about. Because if he could break you, he could save time and you'll just go back to being a musician. Like, let's just hard press him now. Let's just get this out of the way, yeah. And he said he tried and tried so many times and I'd get out and throw up and then get back in.

Just like we had so many moments that early on where I had no sort of aerobic fitness or capacity for lactate or any of that stuff. You hadn't been a swimmer long enough to develop that base that you can tap into later. The stuff that he was trying to make me do at that time would just make me vomit. And that was probably two, three times a week for a while

until I was a little fitter. I remember one morning, like I'd just broken up with my girlfriend the night before. And I come in the next day, I'm down and whatever. And he goes, okay, 200 fly, time trial. It's like, what the fuck? You know? And he goes, what if you break up with your girlfriend

the night before the Olympics in four years? You got to be able to get up and, you know, do this. And just little things like that, that getting so far out of your comfort zone that you just feel like you're off in the deep end, you know, and then you start to find your feet. Yeah, it creates resilience within you. And so I think that's just something

I've been slowly developing those building blocks of resilience sort of since I started swimming again. I, yeah, sometimes you sort of just have to jump off the deep end and then find your feet once you're out there. You're never gonna be ready. That's what I've realized.

You're never gonna be ready or think, you're never gonna feel ready. So you might- So you might as well train to do it when you're not ready. Yeah. And if the stars align and you are ready, great. But you know how to do it when everything's not lined up the way you wish it would be. Yeah, exactly.

And just start doing things. And you know that the first time you do it, for example, say a 200 fly. And he actually made me do one the very first day he got to LA to train me. And like, it was horrible. You know, it was the most painful thing ever. You got the elephant on your back on that.

And he goes, okay, well, we, yeah. Oh man, I could hardly finish it. And he goes, okay, well, we got that out of the way. Like that's the worst it's ever gonna feel. And I was like, okay, well, that was horrible, but it wasn't, my life's not over. Like it wasn't that bad, you know? Right.

Yeah, well, if that's the worst it's ever gonna feel, that's okay, well, that was horrible, but it wasn't, my life's not over, like it wasn't that bad. Right. If that's the worst it's ever gonna feel, that's okay. It's just finding, figuring out those unknowns. It was reframing too. Like if you're, oh, then now I have something to build on. Like it's a different lens to like, look at where you're at. Yeah.

And look at it as opportunity rather than. Doing something for the first time, no matter how bad it is, right? Whether it's writing your first song or writing your first screenplay or your first day at a new job or something, just do it no matter how shit it is, you know? And the next one will be better and then so on.

And before you know it, it's almost like that compound interest theory or that like theory that, you know, what's that theory? If you double something, every time you double it. That's compounding. Yeah, yeah. So basically, yeah, basically.

It starts to become exponential. Yeah, you're building it with these little micro habits over time. You must start with a penny and then you get to use your penny before. Yeah, it's invisible and it's anonymous until one day it isn't yeah yeah i love that are you writing so like you must be too tired to be writing songs

and well now you're in taper maybe you got a little more energy it's so funny that my having experienced the way like my creative my creative side or impulses are so dampened by my exhaustion with training. Like I'll take a break from training. We might get two weeks off for the year or something. And then like a couple of days into that two weeks, all of a sudden I'm just having all these crazy ideas and all these. And I'm like, why isn't it always like this? And then I remember how tired I am usually all the time.

Because you're swimming 20,000 meters a day, dude, or whatever it is. But I'm still riding. Yeah, I'm still playing. Not as much as I would be otherwise, but yeah, I try not to sort of let that fade too much. I'm still sort of compiling ideas and songs and things that I can come back to when I have the time.

Yeah. Yeah. And I will eventually be starting to play and make music again. Yeah. I'm looking forward to the day. I'm not worried about that. I have no doubt, you know, that will come when it's supposed to come. But in the meantime, dude, like, honor to talk to you.

I'm a fan, super supportive of this mission that you're on. I think it takes a lot of courage to, you know, kind of make the moves that you have. And I think there's so much to be learned by the example that you're setting. And I feel like you're showing up in a way that is setting a really positive example for other people and how they kind of think about their own dreams and their own life, so. is setting a really positive example for other people

and how they kind of think about their own dreams and their own life. So thank you. Yeah, credit to you. My boy, Asher Gunsberg says, hi, you won the mass singer. He said you were a total pro. Like just, he's like, that guy's a real deal. Like, you know, he wanted to pass along well wishes to you as well.

And we didn't even talk about Prince Neptune. You're an entrepreneur, you've got a garment line. And also there's a, isn't there a documentary out there kind of chronicling your swim? I, this all came together so quickly that I wasn't able to like see that or. Yeah, no, that was, it's cool having that cause that documents the early,

the very early days of me getting back into it. There was a documentary following, it's on Prime Video, documenting or following four different Australian swimmers at different stages in their career. Ian Thorpe was one of them. And so I was in that and they were sort of documenting the early stages of me

making the transition and coming in and so that's out there. Yeah, cool. All right, well, we'll link that up in the show notes. You're Cody Simpson. It's called Head Above Water. Head Above Water. That's what it's called.

Okay, cool. Right on, man. You're gonna play a song. Thanks. Come on. If I can have a second. You're turning red right now. If I can have a second to figure something out. Much love, dude.

Thanks, man. I appreciate you having me on. Thanks, dude. Cheers. Peace. This was the last song on the latest record I released in 2022. And the title is You Don't Know Me, which I thought was kind of semi-appropriate for this chat

now we do though now you do young lady lover on the top of the world Can't put my trust in all the things that I've heard Somewhere inside you're still the girl I used to know But I can feel you letting go How's it gonna be When you don't know me

How's it gonna be When you don't know me I used to run inside that circle you live? But that little bubble's bound to burst in a bit Gonna wave goodbye to the man you used to know Can you feel me letting go? You feel me letting go How's it gonna be When you don't know me

How's it gonna be when you don't know me? I can't stand the things you're happy you found, but I feel like I'll be cool at last cause this is how it's gotta be you don't know me do you how's it gonna be when you don't know me I'll sit for me When you don't know me, know me, know That's it for today.

Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com, where you can find the entire podcast archive, as well as podcast merch, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change in the Plant Power Way, as well as the Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts,

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special offers on books, the meal planner, and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo, with additional audio engineering by Cale Curtis. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis, with assistance by our creative director, Dan Drake. Portraits by Davy Greenberg, graphic and social media assets courtesy of Daniel Solis, as well as Dan Drake. Portraits by Davy Greenberg, graphic and social media assets courtesy of Daniel Solis, as well as Dan Drake. Thank you, Georgia Whaley, for copywriting and website management. And of course, our theme music was created by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis.

Appreciate the love, love the support. See you back here soon. Peace. Plants. Namaste. Thank you.