The Rich Roll Podcast - From Chubby Kid to Plantpowered, Marathon Running Host of Australian Idol

Episode Date: March 17, 2014

I'm told that Osher Gunsberg is quite the thing Down Under. Under former stage name Andrew G he lit up Australian airwaves as host of the popular Channel V– the Oz version of MTV's TRL– and went on to host Australian Idol, Live to Dance here in US with Paula Abdul, and more recently was the guy giving out roses back in his homeland on The Bachelor. That stuff is cool I suppose. Good on ya mate. But that's not how I know Osher. In fact, I've never seen him once on television and didn't even know about any of that stuff until we had hung out several times. Moreover, it really has nothing to do with why I wanted to sit down and bend his ear. I know Osher just as a good friend. We met about a year ago and he has become one of my closer friends over this period of time. I guy I can call up, and with whom I can talk life things through — because he has endured and overcome similar challenges and always has a wise word or two that helps me navigate whatever I happen to be going through. A guy who knows how to really appreciate a good long trail run. And a guy I can share stories with on a cycling excursion in my local Santa Monica Mountains. Of course you like this guy – he’s the spitting image of you! What is this, some kind of weird self-love thing? Yeah, yeah. If you see the photo that accompanies this episode it is kind of weird. Like my twin brother or something – the resemblance in that image is admittedly a bit comical. Same glasses, stubble, t-shirt, hair, etc. Yeah that’s funny. I like to joke that he is my doppelgänger. In truth we actually don’t look all that much alike in person – it's just how that particular photo came out. Trust me, Osher is much more handsome and charming than me, as you will soon see. But I guess there is some truth to the dopplegänger idea below the surface. Like me, Osher is a plant-based guy. Distance runner. Recent cycling convert (I'm cajoling him into signing up for his first triathlon). Not to mention a guy who has weathered divorce (although not sure you can characterize what I went through back in '96 as really much of a “marriage” or a “divorce” – if you read my book, you'll get my meaning). If you are a long time listener to the show then you'll remember I had Osher on back in May ( Episode 30 ) to interview me as a fun turning of the tables to correspond with the paperback release of Finding Ultra*. Because he is such a broadcasting pro at all of this he was the logical choice — and it was a ton of fun. But the more I got to know him, the more I realized he has a compelling story in his own right that I really wanted to help tell. Like some of our previous guests, a guy who has struggled with many relatable things in life we can connect with emotionally. A chubby kid and junk food addict determined to find a way out of his situation, he found success and improved self-esteem by way of a plant-based diet and learning how to run. A journey that now finds him enjoying marathons and cycling. Enjoy! Rich

Welcome to the Rich Roll Podcast, Episode 76, with Osher Gunsberg. The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey, everybody. Welcome to the show. I'm Rich Roll. I am the host of this little digital nugget coming into your earbuds today. Each week I bring to you the best, the most forward-thinking, paradigm-busting minds in health, fitness, wellness, diet, nutrition, spirituality, creativity, entrepreneurship, and entertainment. How y'all doing today? The goal is to motivate and inspire you to take your life to the next level, to help you discover, unlock, and unleash your best, most authentic self. Boom.

That's right. Today's guest. Hmm. Let's see. Osher Gunsberg, born Andrew Gunsberg. If you're from Down Under, maybe you know him as Andrew G. Who is this guy? Well, it's interesting because I don't know him in the context that most people know him.

So I pulled up his Wikipedia page and I wanted to see what it had to say. And basically it says, Osher Gunzberg is an Australian television and radio presenter who is best known as the host of the reality series Australian Idol. He is also known for his hosting roles on Channel V, which I understand is like the Australian MTV, Live to Dance on CBS here in the United States with Paula Abdul, and also host of The Bachelor in Australia. That's what he was doing this past year. So again, if you're down under, you might have caught him on TV. And now he is a podcast host, The Usher Gunsberg Show.

And we talk about that a little bit today. It's up on iTunes. So good on you, mate. Whatever. I guess that stuff's cool. But that's not why he's on the show. You know, I know, I guess he's huge Down Under. That's what they tell me.

But this is not the context in which I know Osher. I met Osher about a year ago through some mutual friends, and we just became buddies. He's become one of my closer friends out here in Los Angeles over the last year. And he's one of those guys that I can just call up anytime and talk about stuff, talk things through with him. He always has a comforting ear and a sagacious little piece of wisdom that tends to help me throughout my day. And he's a guy that I can enjoy a long trail run with or a bike ride with. And so that's the usher that I know. And I can hear you saying it already. It's like, of course you like this guy. He looks exactly like you. What is this kind of some kind of crazy self-love situation going on here? Yeah, I know. So if you've seen the photo that accompanies this episode, it's on richroll.com

or I've shared it on Twitter, et cetera. You will notice that our likeness, the similarity in which we look is pretty eerie. He looks like my twin brother or something, or like it's two sides of the same person. The resemblance is comical, I admit. We're wearing like the same glasses. We have the same stubble. We're both wearing a V-neck white t-shirt. We appear to have the same hairdo. And yeah, that's funny. That's why I use that photo. And I like to joke that he's sort of my doppelganger or brother from another mother. In truth, we actually don't look all that much alike. There was just something weird about that photo where it came out looking like we were twins. But in truth, I think it's pretty easy to tell us apart. And the bigger truth is that Osher is much more handsome and charming than I am. And as far as

charm, you will soon find that out. But I guess the doppelganger comparison doesn't quite even stop there. I mean, Osher, he's a plant-based dude like me. He's a longtime vegan. He's a distance runner, a marathoner. He's a recent cycling convert. I'm trying to get him to sign up for his first triathlon. And if you're a longtime listener to the show, then you might remember that I had him on back in May, episode 30, I think. But in that context, I had Asher on to interview me because he is such a pro. He's such a professional broadcaster at all of this stuff. And he was a logical choice to be the person to interview me,

something that I thought at the time would be fun to correspond with the release of the paperback version of Finding Ultra. And we had a really good time doing that. But the more I got to know Asher, the more I realized he has a really interesting story in his own right. And that's a story that I really wanted to help tell. And like some of our previous guests, you know, he sort of, it's easy to put them up on a pedestal, oh, TV host, you know, The Bachelor, you know, Australian Idol, all this kind of stuff. But, you know, much like all of us, he's a guy who's struggled with

many things in his life that I think we can all relate to things like weight and diet, things in his life that I think we can all relate to, things like weight and diet, talking to women, and a guy who, you know, was determined to find a way out of a situation when he was younger that was, I guess, compromising where he wanted to go in life. And more than that, we have a really interesting discussion about divorce. Asha got divorced not that long ago. In particular, how our society is configured, because of the way our society is configured, how it can be so difficult for men in particular to heal from this kind of experience in a healthy way. And divorce is something that tons and tons of people go through, obviously.

And I'm not sure that there are the resources available to men to kind of weather the storm that comes with that as there are for women. And that's a really kind of interesting thing that we talk about today. And, you know, Asha's a guy who found a way, uh, through all of this, uh, with a core set of principles to ground orient and guide his emotional and mental physical energy and overall life trajectory. So if you're going through something like this, some of the same things, I think you'll find today's discussion really, really interesting. And to top it off, Asher's just a good bloke. And let's just say he's quite the professional when it comes to conversation.

So doing a podcast with him makes me look good and my job easy. So that's good. At least it's good for me, I suppose. So there you have it. Without further ado, I hope you enjoy today's show. Introducing Osher Gunzberg. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally

saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem. A problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com, who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs. They've partnered with the best global behavioral health providers to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders,

including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful. And recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment

option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming

and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem, a problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your

personal needs. They've partnered with the best global behavioral health providers to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself,

I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. Hi, I'm Moshe Ginsberg, and I'm a professional talking person. That's exactly what you are. I say stuff for money. Well, I'll pay you when we're done.

How's that? I know we had a deal coming in. We negotiated it. We have a contract. Your day rate, what you're getting today for the podcast. I thought you stopped being a lawyer. I had to deal with your agent and your manager. I thought you stopped being a lawyer, Rich. No, I did. I'm trying not to be. You're

the one who's putting up all the roadblocks. What I had to go through to get you over to the garage. Well, firstly, what I can't believe is I'm sitting in your amazing house up here in the mountains in Los Angeles, and I'm the idiot that brings a kale shake to Rich Roll's house. I know. I said you should be penalized for bringing a kale shake here, but I embrace that as you're enjoying it here. It's really good. What else is in it? Oh, man.

What have I got today? Well, I've started blanching my kale, and it's been really good since I've been blanching my kale. How do you blanch it? Well, the trick, I get up with sleepy eyes. I just rip it up and throw it in a pot of water and put it to boil. Then I load everything else in the Vitamix with sleepy eyes i just rip it up and throw it in a pot of water and put it to boil then i load everything else in the vitamix and kind of pre-blend to make a bit of room and then by the

time that's done the i just let the kale boil for like a minute or two then drain it off for instance cold water and throw it in and it just just goes down way easier i know someone sent me a very scary article about oxalates oxalates yeah i mean that's the that's the thing that suddenly everybody is all up in arms about oxalates. It just tastes a lot better as well. It just goes down quite easier. Right. I used to have it real, man.

So the idea, and I'll probably botch this and get crucified for it, but the essential idea with this oxalate issue is that if you don't cook your kale or some other dark leafy greens like spinach, that there are these oxalates that are, I don't exactly know what the purported sort of toxic byproducts of that are, but I've read both sides of it. I know Dave Asprey has written about this. He wrote a post, something like how to make your kale shake bulletproof or whatever.

It goes into all this sort of thing yeah and then i've read other articles that say this concern about oxalates is way overblown and there are so many other foods that have more oxalates in them than these dark leafy greens and nobody says anything about that it's hard to figure out what's not click it gets confusing when there are conflicting opinions and you don't you know what i mean and uh i don't know i've been drinking kale smoothies for eight years on a daily basis and i have i don't seem to have an issue but it also just like i'm saying it just goes down easier right like my stomach is fine having it raw but just it's a little smoother when it's when it's blanched what else is in there today yeah a chunk of ginger like heaps of ginger um what else that's from today just what it was around spinach coconut

oil bit of flax um the guys down in sydney down in the gold coast in australia send me up this guy's their own company called body science they sent me up some um some whole food powder which is really interesting and they do a like meal replacement kind of thing no no no it's like they've thrown it like it's dried in the ground. It's a powder. But what is it supposed to – what does it have in it? Oh, it's just heaps of multivitamins and stuff like that. It's kind of like a black label. They don't sell it.

Right. So it's just kind of nice being on the inside from a supplement company. I know you had a mate up the street who used to feed you scientific concoctions. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Compton Rom. He lives in Utah. Actually, we're leaving for Utah tomorrow, and I was hoping to see him on that trip all right i'm not gonna be able to but i gotta get him on the podcast i think i threw a lemon in there today so uh fun and and you know we're at what it's almost one o'clock in the afternoon so this is not like the uh first thing out of the

bed this looks like something maybe you made when you got up you had a little bit when you woke up and now you're nursing it in a huge mason jar yeah well that's what i do you know people give me shit about it because like oh what's with mason jars in venice i'm like you don't have to come to venice if you don't want but if you arrive you'll find there's mason jars you're gonna say you don't have to you don't have to have a mason jar or you don't have to have a mason jar to be in venice and you don't have to be in venice to have yeah right but not everything i just it's just a really convenient way to store stuff and it's not plastic and you can wash it and you can use it a jillion times and um but yeah so i'll get up in the morning and um i'll make like a full vitamix tub of this and i'll probably drink the what what's i don't know

american is that a quart what is that it looks like about a quart. That's just a bit over a liter in my language. I'll have that in the morning and then it probably makes like another one and a half of them. So this is the lunch one. And I'll maybe have the other one around. And are you just going full liquid? Or are you eating solid food too? I don't know.

I have fruit as well, just kind of through the day. And then that's fine. I'm totally fine with that. And then if I'm going on a ride or something like that, I'll just take – like the other day I had a three-banana ride. Just throw bananas in the back of my shirt, in the back of my jersey and go cycling. And then some dates as well.

I take dates with me when I'm on the road. And then I come home and at the end of the night, I usually just make just a big bowl. It's kind of like the bowl version of the kale shake. It's like whatever's around, as long as there's grain, some legumes, and just lots of grain and veggies in there. I'll just make whatever's around and throw it in there and throw some salsa on.

That's pretty much it. Sorry. It's not really that complicated. Yeah, I know. Well, there's always this idea that that there must be some secret like what's the what's the special secret that you're not telling everyone and it's really just super basic stuff you know a lot of times it's just i say it all the time but it's just what i happen to have in the fridge or what's in the pantry that day and there's always some

kind of quinoa or yeah long grain or beans or some kind of dark leafy greens and you just make a huge bowl like you would get at cafe gratitude totally and and i just throw some salsa and i was in uh south carolina over the um new year's break and i went to like the most amazing hot sauce store it was like incredible like the mecca of hot sauce stores and i just bought all this great hot sauce and had it shipped back and so every night it's like oh it's gonna be tonight different this great hot sauce and had it shipped back. And so every night, it's like, ooh, it's going to be tonight. A different kind of hot sauce? Well, it's great because I'm not really that much of a fussy eater. My ex used to say that she was a far more fussy eater than I was.

And I'm the one that had the apparently restrictive diet. And I really, I will eat anything as long as it's not made of animals. That's pretty much it. And so the first question is, does your massive fan base back in your homeland down under, do they know that you're plant-based? Yeah, yeah. You're out of the closet on this. Totally.

What is it? It's my brother's birthday today. I'm one of four boys, and it's my brother's birthday today, which means I'm six weeks away from my birthday, where I'll be 40. So I'll be 40 in six weeks. I'm going to talk to you about it later because it's the thing I'm going to do on my 40th birthday I want to ask you about. And I've been vegan since I was 28, or what people would call vegan since I was 28.

I still shoot film, which is made of cows. That's it. Deal with it. Right. So vegan dietarily yeah with respect to other products in your life well i don't like i don't wear like if i'm gonna go to a giant award ceremony i'm gonna wear leather shoes and that's for my me and my karma to deal with and it's got nothing to do with anybody else. It's the same with my diet. My diet's got nothing to do with anybody.

I'm not judging anyone or anything. They can do whatever. Everyone could do whatever they want. This is my decision on how I treat my health and my choice on how I impact my environment. And the leather products I own, I have that opening scene of Last of the Mohicans. I have that moment when I put the shoes on.

Thank you for giving me the child so I can win. But yeah, I stopped. So, but I was vegetarian from about 25. But vegan was only eggs and honey. Right. So what happened when you were 25 and what happened when you were 28? Do you want the story? Yeah, I want the story.

Is it a good story? Huh? If it's a good story. Oh, yeah, it's a story. All right, so I was eight years old when I was in Weight Watchers for the first time, which is pretty much AA for fat people. Eight in Weight Watchers?

I was eight. How overweight were you? I don't know. Did they even let kids in at Weight Watchers? I was eight. How overweight were you? I mean, they even let kids in at Weight Watchers? Yeah, totally, mate. Totally. I went with my mom. What, I don't know, was it 2.25 pounds to a kilogram? I think something like that, yeah.

Yeah, right. So I was 48 kilograms when I was eight so that's what 100 lots I don't do math I was big and ashamed and it was awful and very very formative years yeah yeah yeah and so and I dropped that but then it came back very quickly and then so going through puberty quite overweight was very tricky there's something that the body does i'm not quite 100 sure but there's something the body does goes oh this is how many fat cells we're going to need to rest right it locks it in yeah yeah so here we go so even though i eat the way i eat and i train the way i train i still struggle i still struggle um even now um and

then all through kind of high school and teenage years, the fridge was my friend and it was a lot of compulsive eating and, you know, the food that was around. My parents are both, have both been refugees at one point in their life. And anyone who's had a refugee parent will know that shoving vast amounts of food into your children is victory over the oppressors. There's no,

yeah, there's no waste. Yeah. It's like, right. Fuck you Hitlerler you know with the grandmothers and like what is the refugee story um my mom uh was in lithuania um when the russians came actually so they fled with the retreating german army they would you know they got out of there um and there's a longer story that, you know, my grandma, if it's not worth it, she actually, when the Germans were already in,

you know, she rescued some of the Jewish girls from the town and there was a lot of kind of cluck and daggery going on with my grandmother at the time. But anyway, when the Russians came and they drove the they drove the germans out they're like well the germans are bad but the russians are worse so they got out of there well they fled the front but they ended up back in berlin oh not berlin they were in barred berg no in that town and they were in they were in germany after germany there were germany after you know, you know, when the Allies liberated it. And they ended up, they tried to come to America,

but my aunt had a cough they thought was tuberculosis. And so they got on the boat and they came to Australia, Adelaide in Australia, which is, if you've been in a country that's had, you know, fascists marching over your borders, because, you know, Americans and Australians don't really have the idea, but like, for example, where we're sitting, like on the other side of that hill could be a mile that way, is people with different political ideals

that want to come over and destroy your way of life. People can't quite conceive it in America or Australia, but that's the absolute reality of Europe. And Australia is like, well, they're never going to come here. That's about as far away as you can get. About as far away as they can get. Also, it sort of begs the question of like, well, why're never going to come here. That's about as far away as you can get. About as far away as they can get. Also, it sort of begs the question of like, well, why is everyone going to New York and Philadelphia?

Like, let's go to Australia. I mean, was there a wave of that, of people going to Australia? I don't know. It's a long story, but at the time, my country had a thing called the White Australia Policy, and it's an absolute fact. It was a governmental policy to only let white-skinned immigrants in my family my mom was from lithuania and they they came into that um my dad uh was he grew up in prague and during the prague spring in 68

when again the russians came his family and friends were like you better get out of here man because the communists are coming and you're an educated man and so he split in the middle of the night with nothing like less than what i've got in my little satchel here so growing up under that kind of you know cultural uh you know regime that your parents experienced your grandparents i mean there's there must be some level of you know a lot of times that that goes hand in hand with a lot of fear and a lot of, you know. Oh, yeah, all of that. You know, don't go out in the world because everyone's out to get you.

There was a lot. But what do you expect? No, I mean, I'm sympathetic to that. But then, you know, I've seen, I know plenty of people that are children of Holocaust survivors. And it's a very specific sort of mentality under which to grow up. It's called survivor syndrome, and it does affect second-generation people like myself because their survival, like you look at how much effort you put

into the early childhood care of your kids, you've got young kids, and how much effort you put into making sure they feel safe and well and blah, blah, blah. My mom was still in refugee camp when she was as old as your oldest daughter it's just it's it's it's almost impossible to imagine you know and so she the all the social stuff that people are supposed to learn when they're little kids now both my parents are great they're wonderful people they raised four boys you know um they both they both still work they're both doctors you know they push through but there was there was a lot and and around food that food was definitely like ah we won right everything's

great eat kids eat eat eat all right so you're eight years old and you're tremendously overweight you're in weight watchers and then you try to lose a little bit of weight it comes back on yeah yeah you develop these fat cells that aren't going away and lots of compulsive you're launching into uh pubescence with uh yeah with a you know there was it was a great shame spiral of eating i felt terrible about being fat so what made me feel better eating so there was one point it got horrible at one point i was drinking three liters of of which is nearly a gallon of coca-cola a day like colossal amounts of sugar like in high school yeah 16 yeah that one summer i was just and that's when i got really big i was just drinking all this coca-cola over the summer i was you know it was a summer's break we were like this like we're sitting in rich's garage garage where there's all this band equipment set up.

And that was my summer. I was just jamming with my friends in a garage all summer long and drinking Coca-Cola all day. And then just eating burgers and just eating terribly. And then I ended up, I topped out when I was 17. I topped out at 112 kilograms, which is, I should do some maths here. Yeah, I know.

Do you have pictures of that or unfortunately fortunately or unfortunately there were some massive floods in my hometown of brisbane and um all those photos got gone right got gone it's hard to imagine looking at you i mean trim athletic fit you know sort of television personality, good looks and all of that. 252 pounds. Yeah. Yeah. That was it. Wow. Yeah. And I stayed that big. Yeah, I stayed that big for-

250 pounds in high school. Yeah. And not because you're on the football team. No. And I lost my virginity when I was 252 pounds. That was pretty awesome. Well, you are charming. I think that helped.

Did you sort of have to develop you know that charm that sort of twinkle I have no I have no doubt I have no doubt that my career developed out of the coping mechanism you're forced to you have you have to have a personality you know I have no doubt that my career as a broadcaster as a television host is a person who has a personality that is comfortable with being in front of everyone um developed because of my coping mechanism um and so but by the time i was and that was like 17 and then alcohol came into it and then like when i'm 18 and i'm not only eating terribly i'm like drinking 2000 calories a day because i don't know what you know. Because it's Australia.

The drinking culture in my country is, I think there's parts of the South that would be similar, parts of like Texas and New Orleans and stuff like that where it's, what are you doing? Well, it's noon, fair enough. Right, yeah, yeah. You know, just cracking beers because the day ends in a Y.

Yeah. And in Australia when you're 18, it was definitely that. I just remember weekends where it was just like cases of beer each. So did you have like a bottom? Did you bottom out on this? Or what was the moment where you woke up and decided that you needed to do something different? Well, I was 19.

I was unemployed. And I just simply couldn't afford to eat the way I was eating I couldn't afford the burgers I couldn't afford meat so I started eating just rice and vegetables because that's what I could afford and I noticed that as my diet cleaned up and as I stopped I was eating meat just once a week because that's what I could afford on dole day because I was on I was unemployed I was on the unemployment benefits on dole day when the check came in I went and got myself a little tiny piece of steak which is probably not even the size of my palm all right and that was like that was my treat for the week but i noticed that you saved

because you needed beer money probably right well you gotta save that i think i ate i think i was drinking less as well because i just didn't have the cash and then as i noticed that as i cleaned up my diet as i just ate simpler I started to drop the weight a lot. And as well as that, all the weird rashes and stuff just kind of went away. I was a kid. I was allergic to a lot of stuff. This also combined with two dear friends of mine, Michael and Luke. They were always super fit in high school and they just said,

hey, man, we're doing sprint training at the park. Do you want to come down? And so I started – I actually learned learned before that because i was unemployed i was like i had i don't know if i recommend unemployment um because i knew i was smart but i couldn't find a gig and what were you trying to get a gig in like why what what landed you in unemployment um because i didn't try very hard in high school. So you're really overweight in high school, but I'm starting to get the impression that you were still, you weren't like an outcast.

Like you had friends. You were an eventful, jamming band. When I look back on it, I cast myself out because I was quite angry and fearful of everything and everyone. So I was difficult to be around. And so when it came to you know needing super close friends i became much closer with people way after high school but when it came to having super close friends i kind of isolated myself quite a bit um and that was a real drag but i did it anyway um anyway rice and beans and sprint training yeah well it was before that it was

actually the walking man i was unemployed and i'm like i'm never going to get a job feeling like this or looking like this i was super depressed i'm like no matter what if i can't i'll just be ready i'll just be ready for whatever happens so i just started walking and so i started walking like at first like 20 minutes out and 20 minutes back and then i was big man and then i would walk maybe half hour out half hour back and then i ended up going on these walks i would walk for like two three hours man because i had nothing else to do this is before the internet daytime television was boring right so i would just walk and i would walk for like sometimes three four hours at a time and i noticed that the depression and the and the anxiety was definitely getting alleviated by the physical

activity because it was horrible. I was like really depressed and I wasn't going out of the house, wasn't leaving the house. It was pretty a weird time in my life. I was very different to how I am now. And I would just go on these massive long walks and then one day I just felt like running. I was just like, oh, I just was like, I don't know.

You know what it's like at the start of a of a of a timed foot race when there's like 10 000 people around you when the gun goes off and you're like i'm gonna stick to 8 minutes 30 for the first two miles and then i'm gonna go 7 45 for the next one and you just you know you get the smell of your nostrils and all of a sudden you're just firing so i ran probably the distance between here and your gate. That's how far apart the telephone pole is. It's about 100 yards. It's about 100 feet?

Yeah. That's not 100 yards. Is it? No. 100 feet. 100 feet. So I ran twice that the first day I ever ran. I was like, there's blood coursing through my veins.

I'm like, oh, I had to run because I was just going to explode if I didn't run. Is that out of anxiety? It just felt it was just rose within me like i had to run i had to let this out of me i had to run it was no question i just burst into this run and i just feel this energy coursing through my veins and i'm running with terrible form i don't care and i'm like and and i stopped my lungs are screaming and i'm sweat pouring out of me. I look around and yeah, I've run twice that. I've run like 200 feet. And I'm like, I've got a stitch. My intercostal muscles are cramping.

I'm like, wow. And then I walked the rest of the way. And the next day, that was a distance between two telephone poles. The next day I ran one extra telephone pole. And the next day I ran one extra telephone pole and the next day i ran one extra so not even an extra half an extra like i ran an extra 15 meters 20 meters and that eventually came to the point where i started running just jogging like a mile and then it was a mile and a bit and it was like slowly slowly slowly more and more and more and more to the point where i was i was able to run for 40 minutes 45. And that's when everything, like weight really started to drop off.

And that's when Michael and Luke said, hey, we see you're enjoying running. Why don't you come and run with us? And exercise became something really fun that I was doing with my friends, not something that an angry man with a beard and a whistle was screaming at me and humiliating me to do in front of people at school. It's interesting, though, because it really does boil down to that one moment where you just felt compelled to run 100 feet. I couldn were just you were possessed to do that i couldn't i mean when you think back on that and you look at it you know what is your what is your evaluation

of what was going on like what compelled that moment i mean you know you can make the argument that that you know some sort of spirit moved you in a way that you can't understand. I mean, that set in motion quite a bit for you. Absolutely. It changed everything. And within, because I'm 17. No, no, I was 19. I'm only 19. And you clean your diet up that much,

and you start doing those kind of runs in a combination with sprint training two or three nights a week with some friends. I dropped, I'm going to have to get my maths out now, so I can tell you what I was doing. Sorry, I'm just doing the pounds to kilograms calculations as we go here. I should really know this stuff. So I dropped in the course, I got under the ton.

So I got to about 97 because I was working as a roadie. So I was lifting stuff. And so I got under a hundred. So I was about 97 kilograms. Then when I started this stuff i dropped from about 97 to 73 which is about 60 pounds and about seriously man so what is that that comes out to what something like 175 180 or something like that yeah yeah but i did that in about three months wow yeah it was that rapid because i'd changed everything so fast to the point where i would go to the pub that you know we would always

go to because it was brisbane i'd sit next to guys i went to school with and they couldn't recognize me i dropped that much weight that fast and what did that do to your you know psyche oh girls were looking at me. I was like, what's this? Because girls had never looked at me. And I was all of a sudden like, this is weird. But also been to an all-boys school and I only ever had mates who were guys. So I also had no idea how to talk to girls.

So I was actually quite afraid of it. That's hard to imagine right now. Oh, no, dude. My first girlfriend, bless her, Simone. I know she listens to your show so hi simone thank you she's a dear dear dear woman she's a dear friend still she's got three beautiful kids she basically took my hand and said listen here's how it works yeah and she because she saw that i was just this a guy that i've been to an all boys school i've only had

brothers all my friends were guys i just didn't know how to relate to women at all. Yeah. And she, bless her. Are you, how, are your brothers older? I'm the second of four. So I've got one older. You didn't have an older brother to take care of? I have one older brother.

He couldn't be your mentor through this? He was very, he was, he had moved out when he was 17. It was back in the day when you moved out, man. You actually used to leave home in the olden days. He left when he was 17. It was back in the day when you moved out, man. You actually used to leave home in the olden days. He left. He was gone. He was at university shouting loudly about it, at rowdy university meetings at one in the morning.

By the time I was, yeah, so he already moved out. So Simone was your tutor? Well, as far as this is how you actually talk to girls. Yeah. Bless her. tutor she well as far as like how this is how you actually talk to girls yeah bless her so so this this is there's still several years though before you embark on this vegetarian vegan well so i move in with my first girlfriend um and she's lactose intolerant so i stopped eating dairy and if one thing i tell anybody it's that the most fundamental

most profound change that occurred in my life and my body was when i stopped eating dairy and this is before not eating meat was even on the wasn't even on the horizon and even realized it existed at this point. Vegetarians to me were weird, but not eating dairy was fine. And when I stopped eating dairy, I could taste things differently. My skin cleared up. I was doing a lot of voiceovers. I was working in radio at the time.

So I could hear, you know, you're listening to headphones all the time. You can hear your own voice, which a lot of people don't normally hear their own voice. I could hear my throat clear up. I could hear all the, you know, pardon, I'm sorry if you you're eating all the phlegm went away the snot disappeared i was just kind of like i would sniffle like all year round even when i didn't have a cold um and then it was a few years after that it kind of culminated in i met someone who kind of talked to me and the first time again it was before the internet. You just didn't find out about stuff until people told you.

And this person explained to me and we talked about the amount of land required to make a kilogram of plant protein versus a kilogram of animal protein and the amount of energy and water required to make both and the efficiency and inefficiency of each farming process. And I thought to myself, that is just, that doesn't make any sense at all. Why would I support something so completely inefficient? And so that was kind of floating around in my head.

And I was 24. So it was more of an environmental kind of logical rationale as opposed to, I mean, most people, they get into it because of compassion for the animals. I like that I don't have to kill anything to live. Right, yeah, yeah. I like that. I'm really grateful.

But it's weird that you took a road that's kind of right in between those two things, I guess, in a certain way. Well, I like human beings. Animals are ace, all right? I love animals. They're great. But if it's going to be between you, my friend,

and a quadrupedal mammal that I cannot communicate with, I'm going to choose you. I really am. However, what's going to sustain you and I longer is a more sustainable food source for both of us. And the more sustainable food source isn't perhaps animal protein. And it's interesting that also you- I'm not saying it is or isn't. I'm just saying isn't perhaps animal protein. Right. And it's interesting that also you... I'm not saying it is or isn't, I'm just saying isn't perhaps.

I'm not trying to say that I know everything about the economics of food supply. Just for me personally, and as I said earlier, it's a very personal decision. It's the same thing like people ask me all the time, why do you do it? I said, when you moved into your apartment, did you put in a little squirrely light bulbs? They said, yeah, the curly ones that don't look like the old ones. I said, yeah. They said, why do you do it i said when you moved into your apartment did you put in a little squirrely light bulbs i said yeah the curly ones that don't look like the old ones

that again so why did you do that oh because it looks after the environment so do you really believe that in the city of los angeles of 18 million people that your one light bulb makes a difference i go yeah i said well that is why my one plate of just vegetables is in front of me because i believe that one plate makes a difference. That's it. Yeah, I like that. And it's interesting that you embarked on it first with the dairy end of the equation as opposed to most people,

they do the meat first and then they get to the dairy. Don't they always say, oh, we couldn't give up cheese? I know. And for me, well, that was my experience. Like I had a hard time kicking the dairy, but I had a similar experience that when I did, that was the biggest. I mean, I didn't feel that different not eating animals.

I didn't make a huge difference in how I felt, but when I stopped eating the dairy, that was a profound difference in how I felt. Not eating meat for me as well. And this, you know, I don't know if people have shared this with you before but i noticed a distinct drop in how angry i used to get i used to get quite angry about nothing and i noticed i've just felt so much more peaceful

when i was eating red meat and that was that was worth the price of admission because it was tumultuous trying to live with that right so are you saying between the lines basically you're saying that that by not taking in that the vibration of a tortured animal that you are not sort of somehow inhabiting that that kind of energy i don't know is that what you're saying i don't know if it's that but i do know that there was a film called there was was a lot of things. It's not like I went, you know, I read the China study and that's it. I'm done.

It was, it was a long time. It took a while, but I remember seeing a film called Baraka, which is, that's like a classic stoner film. Totally. Well,

that was a time in my life when weed was a part of the picture on a daily level. It isn't anymore, thankfully. But I remember seeing this film called Baraka, which is like the Kyanokatsi and Paukatsi kind of films. It was like a Philip Glass soundtrack. I think there was like three of them. Those ones, there were three of them.

Baraka, I think there was only one. Oh, there's not, okay. But it's a phenomenal film. It's basically, it documents a day in the life of the planet. And there was one scene that took place in a chicken factory, a factory farm for chickens, and they were de-beaking chickens and then throwing them

down a chute in slow motions like 80 frames a second slow motion and then there was this panning shot from left to right of battery hens stacked four high and there must have been a thousand wide and it was this tracking shot that went for about four minutes or eight minutes just and i thought to myself i don't want to eat anything that has lived like that because i don't want as you to what you said i don't want that energy in my body and that was it chickens were gone done with chickens and so that there was only red meat and fish from then now i read a book i was given a book at the radio station that i worked at we often got you know there's books everywhere people always send books in

I know you're an author don't ever send your book to a radio station it becomes a coaster it'll become a coaster or it'll prop up a table it's the same if you're a musician

don't ever send your record to a radio station unless it's going with a rep because it'll become a frisbee or someone will put their coffee cup on it like really save your time

and your money anyway I was given this book that had come in, written by a sportsman by the name of Greg Chappell. Now, for your American audience, there's a game that we play in Australia called cricket. Never heard of it. Okay, it's like baseball in that the object is to hit a ball

away from where you are and run a certain distance before the ball either comes back or gets caught. Okay? It's like cricket. Baseball, if you didn't run in the diamond, if you just ran back and forth, it's pretty much the same rules. Similarly-

So these games go on for like- Five days. And it's brilliant. Cricket is amazing. There is nothing like it. There's nothing like watching a game for five days. It's incredible. Anyway. And our cricket players are superstars.

They're gods, right? When you're a kid, the Australian cricket team at the time were just heroes beyond heroes. It's like your baseball superstars. There was a guy called Greg Chappell who may as well have had a cape and his underpants on the outside. He was a superhero to me. It was unbelievable. He wrote this book called the –. He was a superhero to me. He was unbelievable. He wrote this book called the – I have to find it. It's at my house.

The Men's Health Handbook. Similar to the vein of you, he's like in his 50s going, hang on, there's a better way to do this. And he's coming at it from a perspective going it had nothing to do with animal rights. It had nothing to do with any kind of patchouli. It had nothing to do with animal rights had nothing to do with any kind of patchouli had nothing to do with anything it's just like i eat plant-based now and i am now in my 50s fitter faster better and and way more way way sharper than i was when i was considered the

absolute greatest at my sport on the planet and that blew my mind because he missed out on Don Bradman was the the Babe Ruth of cricket he missed out on Bradman's record by just a hair a hair and he says in his book if I ate the way I ate now if I ate plant based now that record no one would even speak about it I would have destroyed it he talks about playing England at the Melbourne cricket ground there's 120,000 people that are on day three, and he's waiting to bat, just grazing on cheese sandwiches, just grazing, just eating cheese and white bread all day and then wandering out into the heat of the day,

50 degrees, Australian degrees. Sorry, there's a lot of metric to Fahrenheit conversion. Like Howard gets in summer here, like 105, 100, like hot, man. And going out to bat with just a tummy full of, you know, lemonade and cheese and white bread. And that's what he had. And what year was this when he was playing? 70s, like 70s, early 80s, yeah.

And he talks about that. And I was like, oh, right, yeah, of course. And then he, so that was the first time I'd kind of equated that's how I came to being a plant. Because I thought, if this guy can do it, this guy who is considered, you know, he's the sports hero. He's the macho, you know, king of men. He's the hero that we all look up to.

He was the captain of the team. Like I told you, he was a superstar. Right. And he wrote, what's his book called? The Men's Health Handbook, I think. So he's, this is in the handbook. This is the handbook on how to be a man. He's saying, and he wrote what's his book called the men's health handbook i think so he's this is in the handbook this is the handbook on how to be a man he's saying according to him and he's saying if i ate just plants then i would have been three times better than i was and i was considered the greatest batsman in the world and and that now i'm fitter faster and healthier in

my 50s than i was then this has this incredible incredibly profound impact on you it seems like if he was such a hero there that that this would have swept the nation every young man in australia would be suddenly eating plant-based dude the um you should see the commercials in australia for beef and lamb yeah you should see the commercials the amount of the amount of emasculating they do vegetarians and those commercials and this is like giant lobbies it's like well emasculation is sort of a national pastime too in terms of like skewering your your mates right i mean it's like an art form yeah yeah and i really i couldn't give a fuck really i couldn't give two shits people you can you can eat whatever you like. I don't care. It's your body. But I did notice like, and that was it.

I went on one trip. I went on a trip back to Prague. I went back to Prague with my father 30 years after he escaped to the week actually. And I filmed it. I filmed the whole thing. It was before I worked in television, but I was filming everything at the time.

And I had this kind of one last hurrah of eating the food that I'd grown up eating but in the country that the recipes originally were and it was like – and that was – with a few exceptions, that was the last meat I ever ate. It was when I was in Prague and I came back to Australia. I'm like, that's it. I don't want to eat that way anymore. Right.

And I was 24, September 98. And that was it. I'm like, I think I was still eating fish but only for about another six months. And what is the perception in Australia versus what it's like in Los Angeles for eating this way? Well, the

public perception, I guess I don't really know because i have a skewed uh what's the god damn it sample i have a skewed sample of people that give me feedback of people that i know and people that see me on the telly and may not be giving me their honest opinion. Meaning, what do you mean specifically? I don't follow. That no one really questions me for what I eat because they look at me. They see that I'm fit.

I run marathons. I look the way I look. It must be working. But I think generally, the same here. People are kind of frightened because they don't know. But there's definitely, you know, it happens all the time. There's commercials in Australia for both from the lamb industry and the beef industry and the pork industry

and also the dairy industry. And vegetarians are always the butt of the joke. Always, particularly male vegetarians are always the butt of the joke. And I just pointed pointed i'd point at people like you i'm like really go to ultraman twice because that's what this guy did but i'm talking more about i mean you live in venice i mean there couldn't be a more hospitable place for you to live and totally it's the best eat plant-based i mean it's ridiculous i mean there's a juice bar on every corner there's all these incredible restaurants and markets

and all this sort of thing. So my question was really more about like, is it, you know, how different is it in Melbourne? Ah, right. So what's wild is that now there's a great tide moving towards cleaner eating in Australia and I couldn't be more happy about it. And it's great.

I'm, you know, I'm just saying cleaner eating. I'm not's great i'm you know i'm just saying cleaner eating i'm not saying client-based i'm just saying cleaner eating um people love the cooking shows down there love them like crazy like their prime time strip there every night of the week two hours every night same show same people different challenges let's go and it's on and people are just cooking and the supermarkets have changed what's available in the supermarkets have changed there's entire aisles that are gluten- And the supermarkets have changed. What's available in the supermarkets have changed. There's entire aisles that are gluten-free down in Australia. There's one particular chef.

He doesn't talk about it too much publicly, but I will, till the cows come home, I will talk about this guy. He's got a profile in America. His name's Curtis Stone. He works for a chain. He works down there for a chain called Coles. And he's on all the billboards, he's on all the commercials.

He's like, if I'm going to do this, we have to talk about where your food comes from. We have to talk about what's in your food. And he's working super hard towards making antibiotic-free meat coming towards, be it chicken or beef. He's sort of the Jamie Oliver of Australia. Very much, very much. And he's all about, here's how to feed your family,

a four for under 10 bucks, and here's a balanced meal. It's not just like, here's something in a packet you're going to open and throw in the microwave. Here is, cook this, and it'll take you 15 minutes. And here's all the ingredients.

They're right in front of you on the shelf. They're packed together. While you stand there, you just pick them up and put them in your trolley. Right, making it super easy and accessible. Yeah, yeah. And he's all about sustainability and trying as hard as he can to get, you know, that.

This is a company that supplies. It's one of the two big supermarkets in Australia. Supplies a massive amount of our country's, you know, food supply. And he's very much about pushing towards sustainability with where they get the food from. And he's gone to like to a farmer level where he's had to, like, change farming practices. And good on him, I say.

Good on him. So as long as it just makes people more aware of what they're putting in their mouths and it's wonderful to see man it's wonderful to see a bit but again i live in a part of sydney when i'm in sydney when i'm down there working for you know weeks at a time i live in a part of sydney that's very much like venice i live in a part of sydney called bondi beach where it's like yes i know it yeah it's it's amazing dude it's great but then you know there's i'm afraid to go there you should not be what because you might not come back that's exactly right i actually heard last night a story of lorenzo lorenzo lamar tv's hercules yeah he went down to australia for a dog food commercial or something he got there shot the shot was there

for a day called his agent back in la and said push my ticket back six months I'm staying wow that's exactly six months and while he was down there got the Hercules job oh he did he was a big star of my childhood yeah was it renegade I can't even remember the shows he was on but you know 70s early 80s you know yeah television shows so that's funny I mean speaking of uh shifting gears a little bit um living in venice and it being this sort of plant-based mecca of sorts yeah it's pretty great um i was uh california generally yeah it's good like last night i was at this rad restaurant on uh on washington and abbott kinney it's this beautiful new italian place i said you know do the thing that you always do when everyone

else is ordered you call the waiter over you say hey man i'm wondering if you have it goes oh no no the stew's vegan like of course it's vegan i'm in venice yeah you couldn't you couldn't uh you wouldn't uh last i don't think if you didn't at least offer options down there yeah totally but it's great man it's it's it's great but i think like as a path out of uh allergy as well for a lot of people it doesn't necessarily have to be a compassionate decision or you know for me i had like i said i had a lot of people. It doesn't necessarily have to be a compassionate decision. For me, like I said, I had a lot of weird rashes and my skin was weird. And once I stopped eating dairy, all that stuff went away.

And once I cleared up my food, everything else cleared up as well. My eyes were brighter. Colors were different. It was profound. Well, I think even more kind of profound than that is really the extent to which you've been able to

sustain this you know I'm sure you you mentioned earlier like oh it's still you still have to be vigilant about it or you have to kind of be on it but it's not like you you've been rubber banding back and forth between you know 210 and 175 or whatever it is you weigh right now like you've you you're able to kind of keep it pretty even well the thing is about when you get to los angeles um the pressure's on well it's not that it's that there's a place called this is kind of before whole foods was massive and i was living in hollywood there's a place called erwan which is right by cbs television city by the way they're opening in erwan right down the street get out yeah so i walk in there and there's a tofu aisle. I'm not talking like a tiny little section next to the cream cheese

where there's the one silken tofu that's really hard to cook. I'm talking like an entire aisle of tofu. I was like, oh my God. So I went to town. I actually put on weight when I moved here. I put on a lot because I'm like vegan cheesecake. Oh my God. Tofurky.

Wow. Well, this is the problem. Like it's never been easier to find plant-based options and to eat plant-based and there's a welcoming of it that didn't exist even a couple years ago particularly in larger cities but you know hand in hand with that are a tremendous array of plant-based alternatives to dairy and meat some of which are good and some of which are not good. And they finally figured out how to make this stuff taste good. I mean, not everything. There's still some, you know, there's still,

I mean, Daiya sort of tastes like cheese, I guess, but not really. I mean, they haven't really figured that out. I mean, there are some people like, but like Tal Ronan has these, he's the chef at Crossroads, which is an amazing restaurant in Los Angeles. And he has these he's the chef at at crossroads which is an amazing restaurant in los angeles and he has a he has like a plant-based cheese line the stuff is

delicious but the point is that uh it's it's easier than ever to be a junk food vegan yeah that's basically what i was oh look at this coconut milk ice cream it tastes exactly like ice cream you know oh and you can trick yourself into thinking that this is healthy or good for you and which i did and uh yeah and it's thinking that this is healthy or good for you and whatnot. Which I did. Yeah, and it's very easy to go down that path of destruction. And I did. I absolutely did. I put the weight back on to the point where it was 2010, and I was here.

I was living in America. I got my green card, and I came here to – Idol had finished. I did Australian Idol for seven seasons um was one of the hosts down there Idol had finished and I was here I'm like that's it I'm gonna do I came to America I'm gonna I'm gonna do network television I'm gonna be here I'm gonna do network television less than a year after I came with my green card full time, I landed a job on CBS doing a live primetime network show. Amazing. Like the top of the mountain, man.

That was the one with Paula. With Paula. Paula Abdul's first job after American Idol. And it was the best, some of the best work I've ever done. All the work up to that point had led to this moment. And the way those shows work is you shoot the auditions and then the auditions get edited and then three months later you do the live stuff.

So there's this big gap in the shooting. So I turned up to the styling for the first shoot here in, actually in New York. But it was here. It was a very eccentric stylist's house just above sunset, on the hills above sunset. She's styled the pussycat dolls. She's a very, very, very talented woman.

And she has like five assistants. They're all beautiful women everywhere, la, la, la. And she has all these clothes. And I'm like, this is a network job. I didn't want to say no to anything because I just wanted to say yes and just do the job. And she puts me in this cardigan and I buttoned it up and the buttons couldn't come together and she's got this mirror and that you cannot hide from you know it's a stylist house this is mirror

the size of the wall and she was fussing through a clothes rack and she's pushing shirts and suits around then i put this thing on i said i think i'm a bit too lumpy for this and she just waved her hand at me she goes it's okay honey we'll get you a girdle and i thought to myself i did not leave my friends my family to come here and do the job that i dreamed of doing that i put out there that i manifested get my green card to do primetime american tv i am not going to do that job in a girdle. No fucking way. So the next day, I called up a woman that I'd trained with once or twice before, Natasha Koufer, who's been a guest on the podcast. Because we went out running that morning and you said, we were with Pete that morning. Yeah, Pete Williams.

Yeah. And so we were chatting when we were running and you're like you've got to get this woman on the podcast fantastic she turned my life around she got me fit she was a great guest she was one of the early she was an amazing woman and i met her at the coffee bean on um wilshire uh down in santa monica and i said to her we've got three months i I can't be like this in three months from now. I've got 12 weeks until we're live. I'm not going to go live looking like this. She goes, no problem. Let's go.

And I dropped, I don't know, pounds. You know. Come on. You dropped a lot of weight. I did. Hang on. 14 times 2.5. dropped in 12 weeks over 35 pounds in 12 weeks wow she kicked your ass so what did she have what did she have you're doing

well she cooked for me oh she did she cooked for me and she showed me because at the point i was just making it up i was just making up what i should or shouldn't be eating and i said i have toast i'll have tofu i'll have avocado i was like i didn't really care didn't know so i worked with her and she basically taught me this is the portions that you need to do this and to to you know uh match the exercise you're doing so i was riding a lot in the days that i wasn't working out with her i was on my bicycle and but mostly all of it was food. Not much of it all was working out. But it was six meals across the day and kale shakes and all that kind of stuff. But what it also taught me was my relationship to hunger

was totally skewed because going back to the refugee thing, going back to my parents, hunger was something to be avoided at all costs. You should never, ever, ever feel hungry. And I had associated hunger with fear. Like when I was hungry, I was afraid of scarcity. You know? And so whenever I felt hungry, it was like,

even if I was on the way home for dinner and it was seven o'clock, if I had that pang of hunger inside me, I'd pull over to a gas station, I'd buy a bar, like a nut bar, and I would eat a nut bar, like 300, 400 calories. Yeah, that's a different kind of emotional eating. I mean, there's a lot of discussion uh sort of stuffing your emotions with food but it it

generally relates to sort of feelings of self-loathing or anxiety around you know other people there is that but but what you're talking about is is a sort of a tweak on that there's that that feeling of you know it's a different kind anxiety. It's not related to how you feel about yourself. It's your relationship to the world and where you see yourself in it, like this idea of scarcity. I've never heard it explained like that. So knowing that I just have to wait 20 more minutes, and in my fridge there's a little salad that I'm going to eat,

and then two hours from now I'm going to eat the larger meal that she's prepared, and I just breathe through it. And I redefined my relationship to hunger because I didn't realize that I was eating. I was almost like fear-based eating. Like I was afraid of hunger, like it was a scary dog barking at me. And once I redefined that, it really changed, really changed everything. And so she got me down and now I've still got one of the suits that was tailored for me that i wore out on set one night i don't know i just kept it it's big on me now

that suit interesting but now it's big on me so this is an interesting idea this idea of kind of rewiring your brain through you know repetition like repeated uh repeated actions taken time and time again to kind of reform these pathways in your mind right so you have to redefine this relationship to hunger and your relationship to food by acting differently until it becomes an embedded behavior. Absolutely. And we were talking before we turned the recorder on about doing that more on a kind of spiritual, mental, emotional level with your running. Absolutely. And how mindfulness has played into kind of your overall like balanced health wellness equations we have a few things in common reach we both uh we're both

men in our 40s some would say we have looked alike in our past i was wondering are you going to put the photo of us together as as the should i use that one again i did that before you already did okay and now you have short hair so it doesn't work it's not going to work and you're getting more and more handsome older so it's men are to work. And you're getting more and more handsome. Men are lucky, man. I disagree that I'm getting more handsome, but dudes get old. I love the gray in my beard. Anyway, so that sort of dovetails into what I wanted to talk about,

which is sort of mindfulness and being in sync with the universe and kind of the difference between – we were talking about this on the phone the other day, the difference between when you're kind of forcing yourself to go against the current and when you kind of just turn that canoe and then suddenly you're riding with the current and everything sort of kind of just uh seems easy like things are working out in a different way um so we talked about this when we first spoke about me coming on here and the way that when you talked about repetition and you talked about you know mindfulness exercise i ran some marathons and did some stuff before this happened but it was you know the other

thing i said was going to we have in common is we're both divorced and we've both been through. I want to talk about that. Yeah. We've both been through that moment where. It's complicated. It's okay. Not to Julie. I'm happily married to Julie over 10 years now.

But the story that precedes that. It's never easy, man. It's never easy. That moment when you suddenly realize, oh, it's not going to go the way I thought it was going to go. And it was the next day, I was training for the LA Marathon with a fascinating Israeli guy by the name of Giddy Grinstein

who was out here on a sabbatical. He works in Israel. He works on a nonpartisan policy solutions. Like they play pretty high stakes over there. And so it's nonpartisan where he works. So he offers policy solutions that cater to both left and right. So he's a very, very interesting man. Went to the Kennedy School of Politics.

Like he's a really interesting guy and a marathon runner. And so I'm training for the LA Marathon with him. And so it was the day after um you know classic divorced guy staying at my friend's house in the spare room just you know holding myself in the fetal position just wondering what the fuck happens now and i meet him for he get the only time he could hear young kids so the only time he can run is 10 p.m and so we're heading out for a 12 mile or 14 mile run through beverly hills at 10 p.m. and so we're heading out for a 12 mile or 14 mile run through Beverly Hills at 10 p.m. and he says oh I said it's terrible I you know this is what happened yesterday she asked me for

it you know that's it I'm getting divorced and he goes that's a bummer here's what you do and he you know explained to me that he had been through something similar when he was at college. And either someone had shown him or he had developed that, that if he chanted a positive present tense mantra while he ran, by the end of his run, things felt better. This is going to sound kind of strange when i explain it to you but it trusts me when i tell you it works he he spoke about you know if you have it as a positive present tense mantra or an if then programming like if we're in programming language we have

we have if then scenarios where the the program uh path changes so if blah, blah, blah, then I blah, blah, blah. If then blah, blah, blah, then I blah, blah, blah. As you run, as every time my left foot hit the ground, it was like on the beat and like was with the breathing at the same time. And so for example, the first one he taught me was that my key to freedom from pain was discipline and that that's a disciplined mind a disciplined body disciplined thoughts and disciplined actions and like that was what i chanted like when we would do laps around ucla which is like a four mile loop and we'll just

go around and around and around and around and around and around so you developed your own mantra around that if then principle and whatever it was bothering me that day or whatever like i remember so it wasn't the same time on every run it was specific to it was specific to the day it was whatever i work i work up with i wake up with like a swirling typhoon of like god you've been like the first few days after you get divorced your brain is just like it's like being at a festival in the middle of all the stages and they're all you know it's like slayer slipknot sepultura it's like all the frightening metal bands and it's all happening at once all the thoughts coming at you and it's impossible to escape so i would luckily i was training for the la marathon so i had i just had to get up and run every day. At that point, the shortest run I was doing was six miles, 10K,

and like with one rest day. So I was just like running longer and longer and longer every day. So thankfully, I had this every single day. I had this to go out and run and to breathe and to have all those chemicals available to me that get released around the run at the same time as this rewiring. And I'll never forget the one day that it totally unlocked, it was a week later, it was Christmas Day.

A week after it all went down, it was Christmas Day. And on Christmas Day, and very thankfully, the same guy that I was staying with said, look, I'm taking the family down to Laguna, come down. There's a spare room, you can come and stay with us. So I stayed with him and his family over Christmas, which was really nice. And I was running along the park there on Christmas day,

Christmas morning, I'm running. And I just, I think the chant was really simple. Like I am an acceptance of what is. I don't know. It was when I'm in, like, so I figured out that the only time I felt massive pain when I was in what if thinking as in the past and if only thinking which is in the future so if I was in what is everything was fine and so the chant I can't remember it but the chant was around something along those lines like I am an acceptance of what

is it is what it is and I'm grateful for what it is it was was something like that. And I ran for 10 miles. At the end of that run, it was as I was a different human being to the one that left. I left for that run like a dejected, bottom lip stuck out, hanging my head, the world's going to end, the sky is falling, I'm getting divorced, my world is over. my head the world's going to end the sky is falling i'm getting divorced my world is over put this thought pattern in my head and then when i came back from that run what's amazing is the thoughts still come rich the thoughts still come but they travel through this new path you've just put in there that when i feel when i'm in what if i i'm grateful for what is so as soon as the

what if thinking comes through like you you put it on the exit ramp, it comes exactly. And it comes straight out the other side. And the first few times it happens, it's almost like, hang on, it's gone. I thought I was going to go into another panic, but it just went, just went away. Right, you didn't feed that beast.

No, but it happens automatically. That's the amazing thing. You don't have to deliberately process it. But that deliberately process seven days after you started doing this right so a consistent practice over the course of just one week created that shift for you absolutely it was super profound and i've used it since i've used it every day i used it today i use it when i'm doing yoga yeah you were telling me before earlier uh that you never use earbuds when you run never i stopped because it was on that week when i was running it was just so much noise in my head i used to run with music all the time i had the best playlist i would like i would run to do and iron maiden and and ll cool

j sometimes i'd run a like mad hip hop we can we can have a conversation about best or not best oh but anyway dude seriously but when i ride when i ride my bike i i have music in oh you do sometimes only for the climbs yeah you gotta be careful with that though i listen yeah i listen not that loud i listen to like really excellent metal when i'm climbing and it's really good but then it's podcasts on the way down. But I stopped listening to music because there was just too much noise in my head and I was just chanting. And ever since then, like whenever I run, I chant and it's always a present tense, positive

and usually always an if then. And it just puts in a new thought program that goes in. So for example, what's the example i can give you um well it's really like it's it's an active practice to kind of do what eckhart eckhart tolle writes about in the power of now it's sort of like you know don't live in the past don't live in the future we're wired to live in those two places and not wired to live in the present and the idea of of not judging yourself when that thought pops up of a what if or you know this this sort of you know future thing that hasn't occurred yet or belaboring something that occurred in the past

just sort of going okay and then dismissing it not giving it any power and sort of gently caressing it over to the exit ramp and then bringing it back to the present and being bring it back to the present and then over repetition over time then that's what gets embedded only takes a couple miles yeah and i use it now for really specific fine tuning of things um it's been two and a half years dating again it's weird dating's weird but this is one particular incident there was this one particular woman that i was you know i was kind of stuck on an old behavior pattern and it was around uh the trigger was when this particular woman did a particular thing i don't want to give out details but it's like and it was if she does this thing then i

blah blah blah i this is how i react which was opposite to how i had been reacting so i went out on a run with that i came back and then i was around this woman again and she did the thing and automatically without even thinking without i've got to remember to do this it just happened just happened without me even thinking about it you reinforced that yeah and that's the amazing thing about it is it just happens it's not like because a lot of the time like when i'm processing weird thoughts i it's like heavy lifting sometimes i have to really think about like i've just got to relax about this i gotta do like you know write it down sometimes and it takes sometimes it takes a while to get the thoughts out of my head

but when i do this when i do this running meditation when i do this chanting i don't have to do that the thoughts come in and they run through this pathway that i've put in and they go and i realize like oh that used to freak me out that what just happened would have sent me over the edge right there you go and now it's an effortless thing that just you have to keep it up because you've been practicing it yeah and what's interesting is that it's not just for a moment of crisis. So you have this divorce situation that you're going through, and pain motivates this effort to try something new, and you see results with that.

And now you can use it to sort of tweak and fine-tune just how you react naturally in situations with other people or work stress or what have you, and kind of rely on that practice that's fascinating but it's like it's like anything if you don't if you don't ride your bike for three months and you try and ride out of your house and then back again it's gonna hurt and you'll be out of shape you've got to keep it in shape you've got to keep the blade sharp and that's the thing that i i have that i learned a lot you're like i you have to be it's

a constant practice it's a daily practice it can't be anything else it's just it's i i treat my mental health the way i deal with my because i deal with anxiety and depression and i i treat the way i manage my anxiety and depression as i would treat my fitness it's a daily thing that i do something every day to push that and to keep it in a certain way. I try not to get out of shape into shitty thinking or thinking that doesn't help me or help others around me. Yeah, I mean, maintenance is a lot easier than rubber banding. Totally.

But when you figure that out, let me know how that works. But dude, seriously though. This is like my thing, you know what I mean? It takes a lot of discipline every day. Like, okay, what are the things that I'm doing to propel me into a growth mode as opposed to a regressive mode? You can't, I've learned that if I'm lazy

about how I deal with those thoughts and I deal with how I, if I'm lazy and if I'm careless with how I deal with how I, if I'm lazy and if I'm careless with how I deal with my anxiety and my depression, if I, you know, just like at the moment, I'm not sleeping, man. Like I got to bed at 1.30, I was up at 5.30. I'm just lying there. It's like, God, why?

And then like I knew I was coming here. My whole plan was I was going to come out of here. I was going to ride. I was going to come back and just be a god. All that went to that that all the endorphins rushing into the ride yeah totally all that went down

the toilet into the podcast seat all that went down the toilet and so well if it makes you feel better I woke up at 3 o'clock this morning

wide awake couldn't sleep either so right this is podcast of the zombies today I'm afraid it is so but I've got to be

really careful about that and part of that is because I'm on this at the moment I'm just like I'm drinking far too much caffeine I'm drinking it is so but I've got to be really careful about that and part of that is because I'm on this at the moment I'm just like I'm drinking far too much caffeine I'm drinking far too much tea

so I'm staying up later than I should and then I'm smashing it hard in the morning again so I've got to you know I've got to look at that because that's me being

careless about how I manage my mood through the day and my ups and downs through the day but then there's things that are available to me to make me feel better like before I come over here

I'm like I can't walk into Richard's house with this that's you know it's like walking in with a giant bag of garbage that's been sitting in the sun all day it's like hey it's me and this hi both of us walking together i didn't want to pollute your home with that but i was running out of time and so i just did it's quite simply i just did some really simple sun salutations through the yoga mat out and just got into a cycle of breathing and some sun salutations, which is a yoga move that involves basically like an upside-down hairpin, and then you go to like a push-up, and then you come down from a push-up,

and then you go through the vinyasana. Yeah, it's not a big deal. It's a very simple thing, and it's amazing how just a little thing like that can shift your energy. Regulating my breathing, doing a little just a baby chant, not a big one, to just you know just a really simple just to bring myself to the presence and just be really well like as the muscles start to warm up and then just the feeling the flood of those chemicals get releasing oh there it is okay great it only took me 15 minutes 10 minutes i jumped in the shower

and i came here and it's all good it's yeah that and knowing that i had a kale shake and i got so it's probably more so my blood sugar yeah so throw a kale shake into me and then and it's uh you know 80 degrees out in february coming out here with you you know to be around you know your your beautiful home and your beautiful family you know it's it's you know it's it's good man but then it's it's it's it. But then it is management. I look at it just as I look at any other kind of fitness. I really do. And if you get slack on it, you're going to have bad form

and then you get injured. And that's basically, it's the same with how you think. It's the same with how you think. You start to think and let your thoughts take you into darkness or always move you through the sky is going to fall or negative town or assuming the worst's gonna fall or negative town or or assuming the worst or worthlessness or anything like that eventually if you keep going that direction eventually you're going to make decisions that you'll find yourself in a really

poor way and you're going to injure yourself or others you know emotionally right i mean if somebody's listening to this and this is a foreign language to them and they're thinking well that's interesting but how do i take that first step like what would you suggest to somebody who is a complete stranger to the idea of mindfulness or meditating or trying to get the upper hand with the you know haywire thinking brain i would think about money, okay? What's money? In America, it's a piece of paper. You and I have an agreement over what that piece of paper means. And we put an enormous amount of meaning on that piece of paper. We will do all kinds of things for various volumes of these pieces of paper. It's just a piece of paper. But the meaning we ascribe to it changes how we behave around to

it. In the same way, the meaning we ascribe to anything changes how we behave around anything. We have to realize that we are giving that meaning to whatever it is. We bestow that meaning upon the piece of paper. If you showed money to someone who'd never seen money or understood the concept of money, they'd be like, that's unreal. We can start the fire really well now. Thank you. They might even know that it burns. All right. It's the same with anything.

It's the same with, like yesterday, I pitched a show at like a very, very, very big television producer. It was essentially, you know, it was the kind of show that this guy is very famous for making. It was essentially like playing guitar in front of Hendrix. All right. And he sent me an email going, hey man, it was the kind of show that this guy is very famous for making. It was essentially like playing guitar in front of Hendrix, all right?

And he sent me an email going, hey, man, it was really great, but it's not for us. He passed. And I sat there and the email just kind of slammed me in the face. I was kind of like, why am I upset? Oh, because I gave it that it was important that he said yes. I gave it that meaning, right? Well, you put energy into an expectation

precisely and that outcome and then you sort of fast forward through that if it there's more of an if then like if he says yes and this goes forward then i get this and then i get to move here and then this will happen but none of those things are real will be none of those things are real they're all invented they're all it's all in a possible future that i am creating inventing in my brain none of those things exist right now and so i had a breath and i'm like oh because i put all this meaning that it's really important that this person says yes it's it's just it's just one more meeting that and that's how it ended up it doesn't mean anything that did or didn't end up the fact that i even the fact that

i took the meetings what mattered that's all that matters the ended up. It doesn't mean anything that it did or didn't end up. The fact that I took the meeting is what mattered. That's all that matters. The action matters. The outcome doesn't matter. Yes, precisely. So I don't know particularly that answers your question, but if you're suddenly confronted by something, try and have a look at the meaning that you're ascribing to it.

And see, like, there's this fantastic book called The Art of Possibility, which I'm reading at the moment. And the line in that book, it's, what am I assuming that I don't realize that I'm assuming that gives me what I see? What can I invent that I have not yet invented that could give me other choices? That pretty much boils it down.

What am I assuming that I don't realize that I'm assuming? Oh, I'm putting enormous importance on this person saying yes to me because I want his approval because I want a boat because I want to make this television show. Oh, that's why I feel the way I feel because I didn't realize that I put this much meaning upon this answer. What can I invent that I haven't invented that can give me other choices? I can invent that this is great because it's one more meeting less until

the meeting that says, yes, unreal. Like that can be my invention. That's much more helpful than the glib sort of, well, you know, God's got a better plan for you. You know what I mean? When somebody says that, it just angers me, even though it's true, you know? My mentor says that all the time. But for me, what is helpful is to take a step back and go, I don't have all the information. I think that I know what I want and what's good for me. But if I, if I, if I look back over the course of my life at the number of times when I wanted something and thought that would be the thing that would be good for me, or it would set me in a good trajectory and then didn't get it, generally, I'm grateful now that the thing that I thought that I wanted,

I didn't get, because I didn't have all the information that I have now about my life. And so I look back at that. And then I project that into not that, you know, projecting into the future is a good idea. But if you're spinning out of control, because of some future outcome, to just sit and say, I don't have all the information. I don't know what's in my best interest. I'm holding on so tightly to this idea that this is going to change my life or be good for me, or if that guy says yes or what have you, and I just don't know that that's true. There's actually no evidence that that's true. It's completely imagined. There's also no evidence that it's going to end up in the toilet like your brain might be telling you. There's none at all.

It's all an invention. It works both ways. So if you're going to invent it, you may as well invent the good end rather than the bad end. You may as well. And for anyone that thinks that, oh, that's just being a Pollyanna or blah, blah, blah,

allow me to point out to you, and it's in the same book they point this out, that an optimist versus a pessimist, like the people who see the glass half full are in fact being more realistic because the glass is actually half full the people who see it as half empty are talking about something that's not there they're talking about an invention of reality that's something that is invented in their minds but if you look at it as half full you're basing your opinion on real fact this is what we have this is how much food we have

this is how much money we have not this is how much money we don't have because how much money we don't have is invented how much money we do have is real and that's that's a lot to take in if if this is brand new to you right but maybe those two concepts could possibly yeah i mean i i think that uh you know if you're looking to take a first step, it might be easier and more digestible to just look at a scenario and say, what can I control and what can't I control? And let me focus on the things that maybe I could control. Like I can control whether I show up on time for the meeting.

I can control that. I can't control what the guy thinks about what comes out of my mouth. I can't control the yes or no. I can only control my side of the street. So do a good job, and then when it's done, you let go of it, you do what you need to do to get present and not live in that future possibility, and then move on to the next thing

and immediately immerse yourself in the next thing that you should be doing to move forward. Absolutely. But that is, doing the good job is the victory. Right. Not them saying yes. If they say yes, great. Unreal.

You can go and do a good job there. But doing the good job is taking the meeting, doing the thing, running the race, being married, whatever. That's the thing because that exists. That exists. And if you can do that the very best you can, theoretically you should sleep great. Not get up at 5 in the morning. Easier said than done, right?

Yeah, exactly. I'm the one who woke up at 3 and you were up at 5.15, right? So these are on some level jedi mind tricks that you can spend your lifetime trying to perfect it is it is mind tricks man it is my it's it's no i don't see it any different to someone adjusting your running cadence or your running form so you don't have knee problems or foot problems i see it no different than that or someone stroke correcting you if you're in the pool i see it absolutely no differently than that. Or someone stroke correcting you if you're in the pool. I see it absolutely no differently than that. Why is someone stroke correcting you?

So you don't take 150,000 strokes, it's going to destroy your left shoulder because you've got the way your elbow is coming out of the water. If you do that 150,000 times over the course of your career, you're going to need to get your shoulder, you just won't be able to swim anymore, basically. But if someone says, hey, if you just drop your this or lift your little finger up like that, it's going to be way easier and you'll be more efficient.

I don't see it any differently at all. And when you think about it like that, like there's a dear friend of mine who is just being punished, punished, punished by anxiety. And we were talking and I said, mate, and he had to take the day off work. I said, if you took the day off work because something was wrong with your knee, you'd be in the doctor's hospital. You'd be in the doctor's office right now. I said, if you took the day off work because something was wrong with your knee, you'd be in the doctor's hospital. You'd be in the doctor's office right now.

He goes, yeah, I would. And I would have had a rehab program at the physiotherapist already set up. I'm like, exactly. So why are you not going to see someone to help you with the thinking? Because you're not working. You're just as unable to function. There's still a stigma attached to that though, I think.

You know, I think it's still like, oh, if you're going to see somebody about the way that you think, that there must be inherently something wrong with you, as opposed to, no, I want to dial things up. I mean, if you're an athlete and you're going to see a sports psychologist. No one blinks. Yeah, no one blinks. I mean, it didn't always used to be that way. It was like a baseball pitcher who just suddenly lost his form and can't, you know, can't throw it down the middle anymore or what, you know, he's, he's lost the spin on his curve ball or what I had to go get his head sorted out, you know, and that that's a problem. But now I really think that

it's the difference between the gold medal and the silver medal, because all these athletes are incredibly talented is telling it as, you know, more talented than ever. You watch the Olympics, it's insane what people are doing. They're all training super hard. They're now getting more focused on diet. So even there's, there's more parody there than there used to be. So what's left? It's like, well, what's going on upstairs? What's going on with you emotionally, mentally, spiritually, how are your relationships, all of these things, and having the understanding that you can actually work on those in a productive way that's going to translate into performance gains if you're an athlete or professional gains if you're in the workforce or an improvement in the intimacy of your relationships, all of these things. I mean, it's crazy.

And I have a team, dude. Yeah. Well, everybody should have a team. I have a team, dude. Yeah. Well, everybody should have a team. I have a team. That doesn't mean paying people. Like, find your mentors. Totally. These are just people you call.

They don't have to be people you're paying. No. These are just people. You have the right and the responsibility and almost the imperative, if you want to maximize who you are, to have your board of advisors. When you were talking about when you were crewing at Badwater and I think it's like what is it?

There's someone doing something very, very hard running this enormous race across this terrifying desert. Not everyone's going to do that, but life is very, very hard. Just generally, just like getting up, catching the bus, putting your iPod in, trying to ignore the person that smells terrible with horrible breath on the bus next to you, getting to work, your boss is an asshole, a billion emails, another meeting, another spreadsheet,

da-da-da-da-da, run downstairs, grab some lunch, come back, da-da-da, same four hours again, coffee hit in the afternoon, back on the train, da-da-da-da-da, try and see someone to have some sort of social life, watch the news to try and catch up, try and see one tiny little bit of House of Cards, oh my God, bed at 11 o'clock, got to do it again the next day it again the next day life is hard dude life is hard yeah so who's in your crew doesn't matter what so that's the thing like everyone should have that van full of people

driving next to them in the middle of the night going it's going to be cool man we've got seeps of supplies if you get a little weird i'll come and run with you um it's going to be fine we've got spare shoes i can talk you through this part i can talk you through that part no one blinks that an athlete would have a crew van full of people as support when they're trying trying to do such an enormous task well get me get this life is hard life is an enormous task and it's no it shouldn't be any kind of stigma attached to the fact that you don't do it alone that you have a a team of people. In the old days, that was the family unit. That was your brothers, your fathers, brothers, your uncles, your aunts, like in the tribe of 140, there was those people.

Yeah, we don't live that way anymore. Precisely. And so we're isolated and we're lonely. Have those people in your life. We're depressed and we have trouble connecting and then we start taking medications for that. Yeah, legal, anti-legal. Right.

Alcohol, sugar, nicotine, top three, man. Yeah, because we're not wired to live the way that modern society is. I've got my doctor in Sydney that is an absolute legend. I don't know. I think dating is not the right word. I'm trying out a new shrink here in LA. absolute legend. You know, I don't know. I think dating is not the right word. I'm trying out a new shrink here in LA. You know,

I'm just kind of like early on. We're just trying to figure it out. There's my mentor. There's people like you in my life. I've got a hypnotist. I've got my meditation teacher. Huh? My hypnotist is rad.

You've got to meet him. Yeah, I would like to meet that guy. He lives behind me. He lives in Venice. Of course he does. He lives in Venice, man. Of course he does. He's a fascinating cat. Yeah, you'd meet him i don't want to yeah i would like to meet he lives behind me he lives of course he does he lives in venice man of course he does he's a fascinating cat yeah you dig him it's pretty wild pretty wild stuff um but yeah there's like a there's a bunch of people that we can rely on yeah and you have to you have to be careful on who you select to be on that team too you know they have to be people that that uh i mean i think most importantly that you

feel you can be honest with that you can open up with and really tell people what's going on in your life and and people that are living lives that you aspire to so that you're surrounding yourself with positive people and to get back to this mindfulness issue you know you start to become more and more aware of just how the extent to which so many people are just, they're on autopilot running some program. And like, I'll do it. Julie says, you're running that program again. And I go, Oh yeah, you know, I need to change that chip out, you know, because I'll get into some old behavior thinking pattern that's self defeatist or whatever. And she can identify it like that. She sees it. So lucky. And so, you know, and everybody knows what it's like to be,

to have negative people around them, like the person who's always complaining about the weather or whatever it is. They're just, they're running a program. You know what I mean? They need to have their system rebooted. They need to have run antivirus on it or something like that. And mindfulness and these practices that are so simple

and yet still so difficult for me, at least to practice on a consistent basis, even though they're so easily accomplished, even easier when you describe them, can really shift those patterns. And it's available to you. And the fact that neuroplasticity, the fact that our brains can learn new things, the fact that we can grow new neural connections is one of the true miracles of our physiology. That we not only heal like a scar will heal, but our brain can heal. And we can rewire it. We can change. We can take negative thought patterns and build new highways around them.

And we can still be present. That's that thing that I used to do. But now you're observing it. You're not being it. And these things are available. But I guess people come on your show and they say and then i rode across the world and then i ran from one side of america to the other and then i did the ran around australia like so i guess my version of that is that i after you know

after i got divorced it's i'm not the only guy that's going to happen to it's a popular sport things are pretty tough and it ended up with me um i was unemployed i'm in a foreign country i'm paying rent out of my savings i'm super alone i'm like all right how do i get out of this and that's that was a little over a year ago a little more actually no it was actually right after the divorce that i started doing all this stuff and it allowed me to get through losing that job. It allowed me to get through, you know, it got me through the massive change that happens after a divorce in your life and I was able to ride that out without doing too much damage to myself

and come back out the other side. Whereas now I'm more, I'd say to myself, I would say to you that I'm more, I think I feel more professional than ever. I feel more accomplished at what I do than ever. I'm sharper than ever. I'm fitter than ever. I'm more value to the people that employ me than I've ever been in my career. I get the job done because I take care of the vessel that I have

to get the job done with. I love working. I love what I do. I love my job. I love podcasting. I love it. And none of it is possible if I don't keep this fitness not only in my body but also in my mind.

And some days I's a lazy man. Well, the great irony in that is that it really was the divorce that catalyzed this shift. It really made you focus on these things that are now, you know, that pushed you into this place where you are now. And that's, again, you know, evidence of not knowing what's best for you and who could have ever predicted that you would feel that way about this event that occurred in your life. And I think it brings up a

really important issue, which is just the idea of men going through divorce. It's, it's, you know, if a woman's going through a divorce, there are lots of resources and people to talk to. And there's, you know, there's a whole thing around that. But like when men are getting divorced, maybe they have their one buddy that they talk to but someone hands you a bottle of jack and says get over it let's go to vegas yeah let's yeah let's go party or whatever and there isn't a healthy protocol that is readily available that the average guy can grab onto like a lifeline to see his way through this. I had to create one. And this is an epidemic.

I mean, you know, divorce is, you know, I mean, it's, I don't even know what the right word is. I always just say commonplace. But I guess there are so many men, people, you know, I don't want to just focus on men. But, you know, men in particular, I think, suffer in a way that women don't because socially it's not acceptable to process the emotions of what's going on in a safe, comfortable way. Not everybody is going to react to it the way that you did.

The more typical reaction is what you just said, like like let's go to vegas let's party let's you know and and and that begets a downward spiral at least emotionally or good for at a minimum is going to delay the process of of getting over it and i think implicit in what you shared was the idea of feeling the emotions when they occurred not trying to repress them but to be present with them, to understand that they will pass and they're not going to kill you and that the only healthy way through it is to actually allow yourself to feel them and experience them. I wouldn't wish it on anybody.

And, you know, I won't go into details, but, yeah, divorce is as painful as you think it is, all right? And as hard as it was and as painful as it was, I can only be grateful that it happened because who I am now, I get to now live the rest of my life not being the guy that took, that whose very best thinking got him divorced. Like that was the very best that I could do,

the best ideas that I had, I got divorced. But now I get to live the rest of my life not being that guy. And it was quite a price to pay, i'm very very grateful i'm very grateful yeah and not not grinding in resentment no man all the way to your deathbed over what occurred because and i think that i was that i was yeah that was i mean the the great thing one of the great things that got me got me around that was at the time I found a book and I've talked about this on my show take whatever complaint you have and you just put the words of course in front of it so give me an example on that I had a national radio show it was amazing I did it for years

it was really really fun and they replaced me with someone younger. Of course. Right. I'm 38 at the time. I'm talking about pop stars that are 16 years old. I'm 18 years out of the demo. Of course, I'll get someone younger to do the show. All right. Makes perfect sense. Look at the ratings. Of course. I get it. Like rather than, how dare they, blah, blah, blah, this much. Rather than be like grabbing onto it with both fists, put the word of course in front of it. It depersonalizes the entire thing. Yeah, like the other day when he passed on my show,

of course he passed on the show. It wasn't right. If it was right, he would have said yes. What can I change about it? How can I make it better? How can I- Or who would be who else can i take it precisely of course and it instantly it shows you what is the show that he needs that

he's looking for and how can i be of service to that changes man changes it like in a blink it changes it and it's a tiny little trick like you said there's a jedi mind trick it's a tiny little trick you can throw in when you're in that resentment when you're in that complaint when you're in there every everything's against me like of course this happened because blah like of course that would like today and down in venice this woman was angry at me for i don't know whatever in traffic but of course she's angry she she may be just coming back from the doctors and getting terrible news of course she's shouting at me through the window because she might be on the phone to someone. Of course, something else is going on in her life

that this is the only outlet for her anger. Of course. Just, it's cool, man. Yeah, that is cool. I like that. That would have saved me a lot of time getting over my marriage fiasco back in the day. Where were you?

I needed you in my crew van back then. I don't think you were suited for maybe that's the name of that i tell you what that's now that's like remember cluny and up in the air what's in your backpack who's in your who's in your crew van the new book from russia ginsburg and rich roll rich and osher talking through getting divorced yeah or you could re you could rename your podcast that the crew van Van. We'll sell PDFs online through a sales funnel for $19.95. Exactly. That's so funny.

Yeah, I mean, I look back on that experience of attempting to marry this person many years ago and having it work. To say it didn't work out is such an understatement. I mean, it was a travesty of ridiculousness. Of course, given who I was at that moment in time and how i was behaving of course i would say the same for me of course my marriage my marriage ended up the way it ended up of course when i look at the life i was living and how I was, of course.

And that helps me see the perspective from the other side as well. And it helps me take responsibility for my role. It helps me take responsibility for my role in anything, in anything. Of course this person doesn't want to be my friend. Look at how I've been. You know, like whatever it is. It's tricky though because you don't, that could be used in a negative way to beat yourself up. I think the idea is that you don't use it all the way to the end.

Of course nobody likes me. You don't use it all the way to that conclusion. Of course I deserve to. You know what I'm saying. You use it. I use it to help me get out of stuck moments. And it's very helpful. And I don't know.

One of these days I'm going to come here and tell you about, you know, some enormous athletic achievement. Yeah, well, let's plan it right now and then I can hold you accountable. Well, there's one in the works, man. I'm trying to get you down for it. Yeah. Well, let's plan it right now and then I can hold you accountable. Well, there's one in the works, man. I'm trying to get you down for it. Yeah. Your mate who runs a mile every year that he's alive.

Ah, yes. Mike Rouse. Did you talk to him? Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, good. I know I just threw email. He's a great guy. I heard about him before you put me in touch with him. And I got super inspired about, I should do that.

I should run a mile for every year I've been alive and do a thing around it. So I'm trying to do a thing like that in Sydney in August. Very cool. I'm trying to do it. Yeah. We're trying to get it together. That's cool. Andy Baldwin does that as well.

Do you know Andy Baldwin? Not yet. He was a bachelor on the American version of the batch right on he's friends with mike ross too and he's a he's a big iron man triathlete marathon runner sort of an ambassador of sport and he's a cool guy and uh he started doing that too he's been running his uh his age every year yeah inspired by mike ross yeah i want to do it i think i think it's a it's a great idea i think my birthday my actual birthday you're turning 40 in six weeks yeah but i want to do it in australia so there's more uh so i want to do a charity thing around the indigenous marathon project right and try and raise some awareness

around that so we're working on it that's cool that's a great organization yeah it really is i'd love to come and tell you but i want to tell you about that more one time yeah but i don't know for my birthday i don't think i don't know my 40th birthday i think i might i think i want to ride 100 miles or something like for my 40th birthday you should yeah i mean you've been banging out 50 mile rides pretty consistently right so i haven't done a century i haven't done a century miles yet i think 40th would be a good day to do it yeah i think yeah i can give you some routes yeah yeah you want to come for some of it yeah you don't have to come for all of it yeah no i'd like to'd like to. I'd like to. I think that'd be a fun... There's so much pressure.

It's like, it's your 40th. What are you going to do? You're going to have some sort of giant party and you hear... I hear about stories of dudes 40th. Yeah, but it's the same thing we were talking about with money and paper. Yeah, right.

It's like the meaning that I'm ascribing to a 40th birthday. But it's almost impossible to not approach 40. And it's a natural moment where you begin to take stock and inventory of what's going on in your life. And there's a good part to that too. I'd really like to have my 40th day on this earth, but I just rode 100 miles. That was awesome.

Well, I think we can make that happen. Damn, that'd be sick. It's a Saturday too. Oh, really? Yeah. There might even be a century scale. There's organized century rides all the time. Really? Yeah, I'll dial you in on some ways. damn that'd be sick it's a Saturday too oh really yeah there might even be a century scale there's century like organized

century rides all the time really yeah I'll I'll dial you in on some websites we'll get DMACC in we'll try and get DMACC in because he's

he's working hard Daniel McPherson yeah he's is he back in LA now yeah he got back two days ago he did he's just smashing it cool

yeah he's he's training for another try so good oh dude I have to get him on the podcast dude he's got quite he's got such a such a tell the tale he's training for you another try so good oh dude I have to get him on the podcast dude

he's got quite he's got such a such a tale to tell he's fast he's very fast and he's got a great story he's a really cool guy lovely

I see the last time I saw him was literally a mile up the road from my house I was driving by and I saw him on the bike it was right it was right before

he went back to Australia he's got that custom giant with the pink paint job yeah it's hard to miss yeah he's a lovely man yeah I really I. Yeah, he's got that custom joint with the pink paint job. Yeah, it's hard to miss. He's a lovely man. Yeah, I'm really grateful he's in Los Angeles.

There's more Australians. I think London is the biggest population and LA is the second biggest population of Australians. I'm not surprised. I mean, this is, you know, the climate's the same. It seems like, you know, sort of the social environment is similar. And the industry. There's a film and know, sort of the social environment is similar. And the industry. There's a film and television industry here that is much larger than ours. Well, cool, man.

Well, I think we should wrap it up on that. All right, brother. Thanks for dropping by. Are you kidding me, Rich? I'm just so grateful to be here, man. I really… Well, next time come up, we'll ride and we'll go for a run in the woods or something like that.

Oh, I'll never forget the first time you took me running up the street. Oh, man. That just – Malibu Creek State Park. Folks don't understand. People complain about LA, but this is – We're a little bit out of – It took me 45 minutes to get here from Venice.

It's a hike. It's a commitment. That's nothing. I know, but when you live in LA, that's nothing. If you live somewhere else, that's like, oh, my God, you're leaving town. But the fact that we are in los angeles and i'm looking at mountains with hawks and there's coyotes and we can go a mile down the street and how far away it is i don't know american too much um and there's just back to the matrix wilderness just wilderness everywhere everywhere we were i was riding up um to panga

the other day with adam garone who runs movember he's a great he's a great guy you should get him on man i'd love to i've never met him oh amazing human being how much money do you think movember has raised since i started i have no idea have a guess throw one out there i don't know 100 million dollars higher really 200 million higher no way 600 million dollars 10 years 11 years I don't know, $100 million? Higher. Really? Uh-huh. $200 million? Higher. No way. $600 million. Wow, I had no idea. 10 years, 11 years. Did you get the men of triathlon calendar?

No, I didn't know. Oh, you didn't? I'll show it to you. I think I have it with me. Oh, wait, I think I do. I have it in my bag. Oh, it's right over there. I'll show you in a minute.

So a group of professional triathletes, because it's a big thing in the tri world. There's a lot of guys that do Movember. And for people who are listening who don't know, it's a charity organization to raise funds for cancer research. Yeah, prostate cancer and mental health. It's the largest men's health movement on earth. Right, and men grow their mustache for the month of November, right?

And take pictures of it and incessantly Instagram it. That's fantastic. So this group of professional male triathletes were all doing it, and take pictures of it and incessantly Instagram it. That's fantastic. So this group of professional male triathletes were all doing it, and they were all trying to raise money, but they weren't being very successful in their ability to actually raise the money. So they decided, well, what are we going to do? It's getting close to the end of the month, and it's pretty pitiful how much money they'd raised.

So they got together and decided they were going to do a men's calendar. Yes. In the tradition of the fireman's calendar. Oh, brilliant. They're with their mustaches and sort of ironically posed and the like. It's really funny. So it's like Luke McKenzie's doing it,

Matt Lieto, Jesse Thomas, like a bunch of the guys if I was a pro-trailer I'd be getting my shirt off every five seconds too yeah I know no this is very tongue-in-cheek that was very funny

well anyway I was riding up to Panga with Garoni we were on our bikes and he just said he's like there's no other city in the world no other city in the world

where you can be in a metropolis and on a bicycle 40 minutes later be in the wilderness like from on a bicycle 40 minutes later, be in the wilderness, like from Venice to Topanga. And we're just amazing what's available in the city. We're pretty lucky. We're pretty lucky living here.

Pretty amazing. Rich, I'm so grateful you're in my life, man. All right, man. Likewise, dude. Thanks for coming up. Hey, no worries. Thanks for having me. Peace. So for people that want to check out where Osher's coming from, you got to dial up his podcast, dude. Thanks for coming up. Hey, no worries. Thanks for having me. Peace. So for people that want to check out where Osher's coming from,

you've got to dial up his podcast, man, the Osher Gunsberg podcast. And you can find me on Twitter at Osher Gunsberg. Can I do it? And that's, what are the two dots over the U called? It's called an umlaut. I thought an umlaut was the, what's the one where it kind of curls up like a half moon? Don't care. Me, Motley Crue, and Motorhead.

All right. Umlaut over the U. And Motley Crue, and Motorhead. All right. Umlaut over the U. And then where else? You're on Instagram. Oshagansburg.com. Everywhere. Yeah. O-S-H-E-R-G-U-N-S-B-E-R-G.

Thank you, Rich. Can I say it? Yeah. Peace. Peace. Plants. Plants. Yeah.

All right. That's our digital nugget for this week. I hope you enjoyed it in your ears and in your brain and in your heart. If you've been a fan of Osher for some time, I hope you learned something new. I hope you see him or know him or got to know him in a different light. And if you've never heard of Osher before, well, there you go. Maybe you learned something and I hope you enjoyed it. I enjoyed treat, treat, treat, treat. I enjoyed talking to him and hope you feel the same. So

make sure you check out his podcast. Links are in the show notes at richroll.com and leave your comments on this episode at richroll.com on that same page. Before we close it out, I have a couple of appearances coming up. You can check all of that at,, at Rich Roll, on Rich Roll. I never know which one it is. There's an appearance section that I'm always updating. But in any event, April 1st, I'm going to be at Colorado College. Pretty excited about doing that. Really love going to colleges and talking to kids. That's open to the community. So there's a link to more information on my site. April 30th, I'll be at the Burlington Performing Arts Center in Ontario, Burlington, Ontario. That's Canada. It's an event hosted by Edvika Health. And that is shaping up to be quite a

large event, which is pretty cool too. Again, I'll link up on my site for more information. On May 2nd, the Holistic Health Diary, I almost said dairy, the Holistic Health Diary Retreat in London, Ontario. Why is it that Canada names its cities after other cities and make it confusing? Not London, England, London, Ontario, not Burlington, Vermont, Burlington, Ontario. And that's going to be really cool. Julie and I are doing it with Ange Peters and Jillian Manbeck, who are the women behind the Holistic Health Diary podcast. They are extreme wellness advocates in the London area, and they're super cool. So if you're around there,

sign up, man. It's going to be a good time. And then May 4th, I'm doing an event in Toronto as well. It's going to be open to the public. i'm told there will be a website up or splash bays or something like that with additional information on that very very soon uh so you can check my site uh to see if i've updated it and i will let everybody know through twitter and facebook and all that kind of stuff so i want to support the show tell a friend that's the best way we love that uh but if So want to support the show? Tell a friend. That's the best way. We love that. But if you want to go the extra mile, the Amazon banner ad at richroll.com, that is awesome. Because what it means is when you go to buy something on Amazon, as we are want to do, you just click on the Amazon banner ad at richroll.com first, takes you over to Amazon,

do whatever you're going to do, buy what you're going to buy. It will not cost you one cent extra. There is no additional charge, but Amazon will pay us out of their bank account, a little commission change. And that's been awesome. You guys have been amazing at doing that. And that's allowed me to pay my son, Tyler, to produce the show, to create the videos, to write the music, to do all the kind of heavy lifting and hard work that it takes to put this thing up every week. And I thank you, and he thanks you for that. If you want to go the extra mile, you can donate. Subscribe at richroll.com on a weekly, monthly basis by donating a dollar amount of your choice.

And it's amazing to me that people are doing that. So thank you. Review on iTunes. Please give a review on iTunes if you're enjoying the show, those reviews really help us out. So it'll take you like 10 seconds to go to the show page on Amazon and, you know, click the number of stars you want to give it and write whatever comes to your mind. I'm not telling you what to write. Just, it would be great if you could put a review up there.

So, uh, I want to learn more about getting plant-based. Maybe Asher inspired you to get more plants in your diet. Check out our Ultimate Guide to Plant-Based Nutrition on MindBodyGreen. Three and a half hours of streaming online video content and online community, downloadable tools, recipes, all kinds of good stuff. That is on the homepage at mindbodygreen.com. And, of course, go to richroll.com for all your plant power provisions. We've got the plant power t-shirts up there. We're working on a cycling kit, just dialing in the design right now.

And that's going to be super awesome and lots of new products on the horizon. So we have a vitamin B12 supplement. We've got an athletic recovery nutrition product, the t-shirts, signed copies of Finding Ultra, blah, blah, blah, lots of good stuff. So do that. And you can also read my musings there on my blog. You can like me on Facebook, blah, blah, lots of good stuff. So do that. And you can also read my musings there on my blog. You can like me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, I'm at rich roll, easy to find. And that's it. I've been going on too long. I'm out of here. Thanks, everybody. Appreciate you tuning in.

I realize, recognize and appreciate that you have many choices for your precious free time with respect to content out there. And it means a lot to me that you took a chance on me, you're tuning in, and I love it. So thank you. All right, everybody, have a great week, and I'll catch you next time. Peace. Plants. Thank you.