The Rich Roll Podcast - From Drinking Every Morning to Running 340 Miles: Tommie Runz on Recovery, Running & Redemption

Episode Date: September 3, 2026

Tommie Runz is a runner, sobriety advocate, and co-host of the PR Project. This conversation explores addiction and redemption through Tommie's insistence that sobriety comes first and everything else is downstream. We discuss his backstory, the denial and the delusion of functional drinking, the moment he told the truth, nine years sober, ultrarunning as a spiritual practice, who belongs on the trail, and more. Tommie is a beautiful representation of a real runner. Enjoy! Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube Newsletter Sign-Up Today’s Sponsors: WHOOP: Join now and get one month free👉🏼https://www.join.whoop.com/Roll  Squarespace: Use code RichRoll to save 10% off your first order of a website or domain👉🏼https://www.squarespace.com/RichRoll  Rivian: Electric vehicles that keep the world adventurous forever👉🏼https://stories.rivian.com/richroll  Freaks of Nature: Save 20% with code RICHROLL👉🏼https://www.freaksofnature.com  Check out all of the amazing discounts from our Sponsors👉🏼https://www.richroll.com/sponsors  Find out more about Voicing Change Media at https://www.voicingchange.media and follow us @voicingchange Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I don't know when the morning drinking started, but that was a standard. And I'm just like, I'm gonna die like this. Like this is how I die. He's sober. He's an accomplished runner. He's making a positive impact on the world. Prepare to be inspired because today you're going to hear the experience, strength, and hope of Tommy Runs. 17 years old senior year, I think it was,

ran out of the classroom and then like passed out. All of a sudden, I'm drinking every day for two weeks. That's like the most accelerated case of alcohol as I've ever heard. Well, hold on. The story hasn't even, the story hasn't even finished yet. The meetings saved my life. There wouldn't be any running if I didn't get sober.

I did Osaka Marathon seven days before Tokyo. Six or seven marathons in a year. The Speed Project from L.A. to Las Vegas, 340 miles. How do you continue? And how do you make that decision for yourself, even though, like, everything's telling you to stop? So how do you do that? Um.

All right. Tommy, before we even get into it, Dan over here, dug into the archives, and I want to share something with you. This is, Tommy Runs. I think it's important to mention that I'm a young black guy from the Detroit area, went sober, then went vegan, then started running. And sober vegan runner isn't normally synonymous with like the black community. So it was just so much different for me to be going down this road.

And I was kind of like on my own with it. you know, the veganism is just not a thing in the black community for real. I mean, it's getting better now, for sure. But at the time, like, I didn't know anybody that was vegan, that's black, or that was in my circle,

even close to my circle. So I was just kind of on my own looking for material and information, found finding ultra, and it just spoke so much, like, to me. I've been in AA and went to the program, love the program, programs helped me so much in so many ways

that, I mean, I just, I feel like I'm indebted to those people in those rooms and those tables. So hearing that Rich went through the same process in so many different ways from a different side of the world to me. But they also felt like all the same feelings and all the same like just troubles. You know, it just made me feel at home reading the book.

And then so I started watching the show. And it seems like every time that I was trying to make a new direction of my life, the podcast had a guest on it. That was perfect for that moment, perfect for the past, the moments that just passed that I needed to get over. or someone that was inspiring me to move on to the next step and kind of reach forward. My journey went from desperate to thriving with running veganism.

Now I have a running company. They have my own little personal brand on Instagram. Now I'm working with companies. I've been able to interview and have a podcast. I've been able to interview some of the people that have ended up on your show as well to help people just kind of navigate through these things and through these times. I'm super appreciate how much time you spent on talking about the black community and the issues in 2020 that arose and came back to the forefront. So I appreciate you.

Tommy runs. Thanks, Rich. I'm a stay. So that was 2021? Yeah. So like five, five, six years ago. I had forgotten about that and Dan unearthed it. And it was so fun to listen to that today.

I know. I happily forgot about this. Yeah. So how does that make you feel hearing that now, like so many years down the line from where you were at that moment? It makes it feel like sitting here feel so real because I know how much, I know like what role that book in your podcast and the beginning of my sobriety in running. I just know how much it all meant to me to like see somebody thriving and working because before sobriety, I just didn't know like what life was. on the other side of that and like who I would be. So to get into it and be curious about like self-improvement and all that stuff,

to catch all that, you know, catch your, your content and your story at that time. It was like a big deal for me. So I was really happy to be able to like have a moment to record my thoughts and like send it to you, you know, whether you use it or not. So it's like surreal for me to be sitting here. And I guess I'm proud of me then. Like it makes me feel kind of proud. Like it's kind of cringy hearing it. but I'm proud that I'm still finding out, like,

trying to find out who I am in this journey, but then also like trying to help people along the way. I'm very moved listening to that. And knowing you now, you're paying it forward. Like this is what we do, you know, this is what we learn in the rooms. Like you hear that experience strength and hope, you put it into practice in your own life

and then you turn your head around, You put your head on a swivel and then you pay it forward for somebody else. And this is just an example of that. And I think this journey that you've been on is so beautiful. You know, we first met at the running event. How many, what year was that? 2021. 2020.

So maybe it was that after before. It must have been after. It must have been. It must have. We were introduced by our mutual friend, Russell Medal. Shout out Russell. Shout out Russell. Thanks for making the introduction.

And I've been able to kind of watch from afar. as you really embraced sharing your story, your story of addiction and redemption, and your running journey, and it just continues to blossom. And it feels like you're really hitting your stride right now. And you're connecting with people. You're out at all the races. You're creating content. And you're inspiring all kinds of people, particularly communities that are unfamiliar with this world that you are now like very much a part of. I appreciate that. Yeah.

Let's do a little walk into the past. I want to take it all the way back to, you know, growing up into in Detroit or just outside Detroit. Yeah. All right. So when I was one year old, I was fine. Yeah. It's far back.

You know, we're going to do what it was like, what happened and what it's like now. Okay, okay, cool. Yeah. So like I grew up, I was born in New York. and my mother and father separated when I was five, so then we moved back to Detroit. My whole mom's side of families from Detroit. And like my mom was just like single mother kind of like from that point on.

My dad passed away when I was eight years old. He died of a stroke at 39 years old. And you're 41 now? It ought to be 42 now. About to be 42. Yeah. So like my 39th year was like I was in my head so crazy, you know. By the way, you look like you're like 26.

I appreciate it. It's crazy. You're like ageless. It's insane. I heard some saying like black don't crack or whatever. But I grew up without him, you know, and my mom did such a great job of like really hustling and trying to make everything work for me and my sister. You know, like, and it was really like a great place to be, you know, to grow up because there's just so much diversity in some of those schools. But at the same time, like, I felt lost, you know, like, and I'm not sure if it was, you know, probably because my dad passed and I didn't have, like, I'm the third, so I have the same name as him, you know, and I just always was like trying to chase this or thought of chasing this person that I didn't really know that, like people spoke so highly of.

Like, it wasn't like, oh, your dad was cool or whatever. It's like the people that talked about him, it made me feel like I could never be that. your kid growing up, confused, not feeling great about yourself. Like what was your kind of journey through like junior high school and the early years of high school? Like who are you hanging out with? Like what kind of kids? Like where did you fit in? I was not like the cool kids.

And I wasn't like. That's crazy because you're so fucking cool. It took a long time. I was like I need some fashion advice. But go ahead. You're doing good. You're doing good. I like this whole look.

Yeah. I thought a lot about this. I was like, Tommy's coming in. I got to like, I got to take this seriously. One thing I wish I could do is grow a beard. And, you know, every time you grow a beard. I saw your video about that. You, it'll, well, yeah, I guess you're, well, I guess you're 40.

Are you about the gas light? My beard is going to come in. So for those that don't know, like, you can see it on Tommy's Instagram. He did a video where he's like, I wish I could grow a beard. So you had AI, you had a lot to lock you up with a beard. And I was like, oh, you look like Denzel Washington's son and tenant. Like, it's pretty badass. Yeah, like it looked pretty good.

Yeah, so you're like, I'm going to go to Turkey and get hair transplants on my face. I'm traumatized at this point now. But like you got so much on top of your head going on, you know? That's why I feel like. You get one or the other, I think, you know. I guess. I feel like there's people with both, but whatever, you know. We can't have everything, Tommy.

No, you really can't. But yeah, so like, I don't even know what was the question. I don't know either. You weren't with the cool kids. Yeah. Who was your hang? Yeah. So like I was kind of like I was I was like in the middle like I was trying to I was like kind of watching the cool kids do their cool good things you know like because we just didn't have like you know the school I grew up in cool meant you had all the nice stuff you know you had the iceberg you know sweaters and the whatever jeans and that was the vibe and if you didn't have that you were just kind of like had to watch it happen. So like I was friends with all of them but I was just like on the outside because I just wasn't that cool you know like to them because of like what I was.

But I was always, everybody knew me, I knew them, and I just felt like I was just kind of meandering through this like, you know, middle school, high school experience. It was like watching what I wanted to be, which like just kind of like tore me up a bit because like I was friends with all of them, but I just wasn't, I didn't feel like I was okay or cool enough to come like walk to like the, you know, the heaters that they used to sit on like in the hallway in the school, you know? And it was strange, but I've always had like a few friends. I've never been the person that had like 20 friends at a time, which is kind of counter like what I wanted. I wanted all of them to be my friend. But in reality, like I'm the type of person that has like two, three friends that I rock with and hopefully till like death do us part type of vibe.

And so like middle school and high school was like a weird thing for me. Like I was I wasn't great at school. I didn't like homework. I could pass any test that you give me just by because I was in the class. Like I could figure it out on the test day. But I never really like applied myself like just ever at that point. And maybe it was because I was trying to not look like I was trying hard. But it just left me in this like limbo of like, are we trying to do this life or not?

And if if I can't be as cool as them, then maybe I don't want to try. But I started golfing in like eighth grade or something like that, which was definitely also different at that time. But that was like the Tiger Woods era. So it was okay enough. But that kind of gave me some like purpose through high school, which was like make sure my grades are good enough to play. And I was like pretty decent, but I was also still pretty short at that point. And so it just didn't allow me to like flourish in the way that I thought I wanted to. but it kind of gave me purpose to kind of connect those years of making sure I didn't like flunk out of school.

So no track and field, no cross country, no running basketball, no running. Yeah. Golf. Yeah. Like, so like all the sports that I play were just all like neighborhood stuff. Like we had a bunch of kids in our neighborhood and we used to play every sport like possible. If somebody watched a movie about football, we're playing football the next day for sure. But so I've always been athletic, but I'd never, I didn't play any like high school sports except for on the golf team.

So when does drinking enter the picture? Drinking enters in the hallway, 17 years old senior year, I think it was. And my friend brought like these little nips, you know, the little bottles. He had like got him from his mom or something like that or stole him from his mom. And he's like, you want some? And I'm like, sure. So the first drink I took, it was like all of a sudden I didn't care about what I thought everybody else thought. it was like the moment of like fake clarity like oh my god i can i don't care anymore i could be

myself and then once people start realizing i was drinking because then i just went from those couple little nips to like trying to find out like next day like how can i drink more of this stuff do you have more and then i found out ways to try to get some of my own so i went from not drinking at all really um having a family of in my dad's side of the family is a drinking family um or at at least that's what my view of it, to like all of a sudden I'm drinking every day for two weeks. Just like that. Just like that.

Like a light switch got flicked. Yeah. Like it was like, I mean, it was like fast friends. Like I need tomorrow like or today. I need this like now. Like because if I can walk into school and not like think that everybody's looking at me weird

because whatever, then that's what I want. Did it go immediately to drinking like before going into school like in the morning? I was just. It would be. Looking forward to after. No, no, I was in school. Wow.

I needed to end school in my head, yeah. Like right away. Like, so. That's like the most accelerated case of alcoholism I think I've ever heard. Well, hold on. The story hasn't even finished yet. So like two weeks into the drinking thing, this is the first time I've said this on a microphone before, so that's funny.

So two weeks into drinking, there was a pep rally day. And I had gotten whatever liquor that I thought I needed. or whatever and I drank so much because like even in that first two weeks people realized like I had a drink up on me so they would be like wanting to drink all the cool kids with oh let me take a sit let me take a sip so like then all of a sudden I needed to have extra you know and then so I'm drinking throughout this whole day this pep rally day it's only a half day by the time like before the pep rally it was only like two hours in the school like I wake up and I'm on the floor in the bathroom passed out

with my mom, my principal, and like the security liaison, like, standing over me because I had, like, ran out of the classroom and then, like, passed out. And that was two weeks into my alcoholic, like, journey. Wow. That's wild. And, like, I tell that, like, because it's probably, like, you did not have to tell that story. But it's just, like, it just, that just shows, like, how powerful like alcoholism alcoholism is because like in any other scenario that happens to you that fast into this thing you're scared straight you're scared away like i can't obviously that's not for me i can't handle it but what i did was like slowly like okay well i can't drink liquor right away because i just can't even smell it because it's just too it just sends me off maybe i'll just drink

some beer like as i got back into it so i like slowly like weaned myself back into it because i just needed to have that feeling again uh yeah a normal person would be appalled and say, yeah, no more of that for me. But the reason that it happened is because you're not that guy. Like from the first drink, you're like, oh, this is the solution to all my problems. This just makes me finally feel comfortable in my own skin. And you begin to realize like how uncomfortable you've been all along as if all the cool kids had this operating manual for life and they're all walking around feeling great about

themselves. And now you've discovered this elixir of life that allows you to feel the way that you assume everyone else feels all the time. Yeah. It was a cure to like the pain that I felt like I was going through every single day. And that's the thing that gets missed, I think, too often in discussions around alcoholism and recovery. Like, it works. That's why you're doing it. You know, it is a solution to a problem. It's not the problem. The problem is, you know, you feeling uncomfortable in your own skin and why that's the case, right? And until you heal that or find a solution for that,

you're going to continue to drink. This episode is brought to you by Woop. To celebrate turning 60 in a handful of weeks, I am planning to guide a disabled athlete at the New York City Marathon, which is quite the leap from where I was not long ago, slowly recovering from spinal fusion surgery. and to be ready, I have plenty of hard work ahead of me, but I need to do it smartly, meaning

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Head to Squarespace.com slash Richroll for a free trial, and when you're ready to launch, use offer code Richroll to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. That's such a extreme kind of episode where, you know, even a young person is going to know immediately like, this is like, like my thing with this drinking is different than my classmates. Yeah. Yeah. And not that you're going to do anything about it, but you're like, you make a mental note of it. I knew I was an alcoholic. And like, you don't want to be the guy who's passing out. So you realize like, I got to reel it in, but I got to find a way to be able to continue doing this. Yeah. Like, you have to. It's like, okay, lesson learned.

Instead of, you know, lesson learned, here's how I can do this better, you know, and B, I don't want to be that extreme because that's abnormal as well. I'm not going to fit into the cool kids of them laying in the bathroom floor. But how do I, like, how do I weave this into my life in a way that can allow me to be functional? And I think that, like, the functional alcoholic, the term, that's the most dangerous term that is thrown around, like, in society to me. Because that's the issue, because you, if you have a job, if you're moving forward, if you're going to school, doing the things, you're not on the side of the road, you know, drunk all the, all day. You feel like you're normal in some way. And then it just lets you just pass time and continue to just like make these decisions or tear your life apart or tear your health apart.

Well, the word functional is the wrong word. Like you're operating dysfunctionally. Yeah. But you're not so dysfunctional that anybody is going to kind of force you to stop doing what you're doing. You can get by, but you're operating at like such a subopt. level in hurricane. I mean, but you think you're crushing it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's part of the denial and the delusion. Like, nobody knows what I'm doing. They don't, you know, like, I'm getting away with this. And, and then as it accelerates, then you have to start with all the lying and the hiding and all of that. But what was, what was the conversation with moms that night after

passing out in the bathroom in high school? She couldn't have been too happy. Yeah, so I don't even know. I think, you know, this was in, this was in like early 2000. So, like, um, parents putting their hands on kids was kind of was okay at that point. And I was like 17. So I think she like punched me when I got in the car, like maybe in the chest or something like that. But like she never like she wasn't a physical person like that. But I just knew like really her, the look she's always, she has this like look that she's like a lot of like parents have. But it's this look that just like tore me up.

And I just felt so embarrassed and like ashamed and felt like I like disrespected her. and disrespect to my family. And the thing was like, I had a, one thing I remember about that day is like I had a job at that point. And I had, I was supposed to go to work like later on that day. And she made me go to work,

but she wasn't gonna take me. So like I had to call my grandma to come take me to work. She knew the whole situation and she's like this, if you, like I hope you get to meet her. She's like this really like, you know, quiet, so,

kind. Everybody, if you meet her, everybody's just going to be like, they're just, everybody loves my grandma, just automatic because she's just so kind, supportive and attentive. And you feel like she's like looking into your soul as you talk to her, as she talks to you. And so she got in, she, I got in a car quiet because I'm trying to figure, like, how to not be drunk right now. And we're driving to this, this place out in, like, the suburbs. And she, like, right before I got out, she, like, looked at me. And, like, the first word she said was, or the only word she said in the car was like, don't let them see you like this. Like to me, that meant just, it was just so much because I was just walking into this building with, you know, at that time, it was a golf store and it was just, it's just going to be all white

people and I'm just looking a mess. So she's like, just pull yourself together and don't ever letting anybody see you like this. And I wish I took like the meaning of that, like right away and maybe just went a different direction. But, you know, the addiction one in that case. But that's what I remember from that day. And once I finally like came to terms with like my sobriety and started going on that walk, I knew more like what she, what she meant. And I kind of tried to chase that, that, like, redemption of that moment, you know, like throughout my life now. With that rapid of an acceleration, it seems like it would be difficult for you to sustain any kind of relationship with alcohol for very long. But that was what year? That was 2002. 2002.

You get sober in 2017. So you got a good 15 year run after that. Yeah. Yeah. Good is a strange word. Yeah. So from that point, like I got back into it just a little more tame. I thought I was being. And like I said, I ease back into it. And I just knew my, I kind of learned my limit, you know, I thought I learned my limit at that point. Like I'll never, I'll never be that drunk in public ever again. I'll never drink that much in a short period of time ever again. Like I set these parameters without like, without knowing it. And it just allowed me to get to the point of, you know, okay, I need to go home. And I would just go home. And you were able to do that. I was able to do that. But then a lot of But that also led me to like this really isolated life.

You know, you had family and stuff like that, but I still was like, I would just be at home drinking. I wasn't the type of drunk or a drinker that like would want to be outside and at the bars and stuff like that. Yeah, you're taking your grandma's advice. It doesn't, you're not interpreting it as stop drinking. Just don't let anyone see you doing it. Yeah, yeah. So like, and if you're in my house, yeah, it is what it is. Like, you know, so that was my thing was just like kind of hiding it as much as I could.

and then just never being in a car, you know, absolutely just trashed or just, I just didn't want to be around people. Like, I was very alone to myself, like, drunk. And that's, it was just part of, I wake up every morning and finish whatever I didn't, you know, the day before. So the morning drinking started pretty early? I don't know when the morning drinking started, but it was, you know, definitely around like 2012 or 13. like that was standard, you know, and that was, and I just pulled from so many different, like, dumb inspirations. Like, it was a dude that I remember being around like,

because after I graduated, I went down this whole, like, street, like, rabbit hole where I just knew that I wanted to be out there outside like that. And as a dude, I knew that was like he would drink every day before he'd go out, you know, into the world because, I mean, he was living a much different lifestyle. But he just felt like he needed to have, like, an edge when he went outside. And I'm like, well, I'm going to work inside, but I could still use this like little itch. So I was just using all these little random moments to validate like how I was like moving through my life. And but I just, you know, like they said, like there's like three phases of it.

It's fun in the beginning. In the middle you're just kind of maintaining. And at the end it's just like absolute torture because there's no chance of stopping this, this like train that just is constantly rolling. And like every time that I would try to like stop, I was trying to stop for like a week and I could make it a day. And so every time I'd wake up in the morning and drink or every time that I would fail on these like little small, little stents of sobriety or like dry January's, it just felt like every day I was losing. I wake up every day and take an L. And it felt so out of control, not because I was just like walking around the street, stumbling around, but I was just had no control over my next, like, 20 minutes.

Every time that happens, it's like another deposit in the hopelessness, desperation, piggy bank. Desperation was like, if I could have bought like two weeks of sobriety with every dollar I had at any point, I would have just to say that I did it. Did you know anybody that was sober or that didn't drink or you were just, it was like lower companion situation? No, I mean, I knew people that drank normal, like regular, like people that would drink once every week or something like that and they could control it when you'd leave somebody's house like you'd buy a bottle and you take it to the house to have a party and you come back

two weeks later and that same bottle is there. Like those people drove me crazy. Like how did you not drink this? while I was gone. But no adult in your like orbit who was like, yeah, I'm an AA person. No, no A.A. was involved. No one's checking in on you like that. Like, because even the people like in my family, like, on my mom's side that didn't drink,

they drank every now and then. But it was no like intentional, you know, I go to A.A. A.A. was a movie thing for me. That's the only time I saw it. And it was never really depicted in like this light of like you should check it out. Yeah. That wasn't an option. Yeah, for me.

You worked for many years at an auto transport company, right? Like now you're full-time running influencer, racer, dude. But you had a pretty good job for a long time. Like you kind of worked your way up the ranks to like a VP level, I guess, right? Is that a job that you started like right out of high school or, or, you know, like, how did you find your way there? And then how are you kind of getting promoted at your job while balancing this secret life as a morning drinking alcoholic. Functional, bro.

No, it was... Because they must have, on some level, there's no way you had to just smell bad. I asked him after I got sober. I was like, did you? And he was like, no. I did. Wow. As I mean, he had to be lying to make me feel good. I don't know. But so I started working for them in 2007. So like from the like graduating high school to 2007, there's like this like little area where I, like, I jumped into, like, I guess, like, street life, um, in a way. And I, I found myself going directly in this path of, of, like, self, like, actual self-destruction and, like, gambling, like, my freedom and life, like, every day.

Like, what are we talking about here? Like, selling drugs or? Um, so I knew people that, I knew people that did, and I was around people that did. and like I dabbled in it here and there but I was much more like the younger dude around like people that were like 10, 15 years older than me and they were just doing really well and I met them through

through a girl that I knew at the time in next scene you know like because I grew up glorifying like that I guess the cars and the money and stuff like that but it was really more of like that masculine like I have it figured out energy and that confident energy that I felt like

I didn't have. So I watch all these movies and it's like, yo, that's the guy that I think I should be like, you know, I should be like running this or having, you know, money and doing what I want to do. And so like all of a sudden to like run into some people like this, they were, they were everything that I thought I wanted to be, which was, you know, confident, took care of families and people knew them, you know. And in hindsight, it was a very dangerous like decision for me to be like, are you be like, all right, what y'all need?

And let's work and let me help and let me, you know, make some money on the side here, do all these things. Like, it was a big risk. But, like, I actually, like, thank God that I met them and not, like, a different set of people. Because it wasn't like, I guess, hand-to-hand, like, it wasn't like I was, like, standing on the corner or somewhere. Yeah, like, it was much different than that. And a little safer, but probably higher the amount of years that potentially you could get

if you got caught doing something, it would probably be. a little crazy. But it was, I'm just happy I met them because they kept, they were, had kept me farther or far away from that daily energy as possible. But then they also like strangely had, even though I looked at the drug dealing part of it as, yo, this is who I want to be because they're drug dealers, it was really who I wanted to be because they were, a lot of these guys are people that are just trying to take care of their families.

Yeah, they look like they're thriving. They look like they're thriving, but then a lot, at least in the generation that I grew up in and looked up to, they had morals and like to an extent and had like a code amongst themselves like how they would carry themselves in the world and how they would take care of their families. Like, you know, this is all around about story to get to like 2007, but when my kid's mom had our daughter in 2007, 2007, I needed to get to get. I needed to make a chance that I couldn't be in the house I was in and have her in the house with a baby. So we moved to this other house. And I didn't see a dad directly with children until I saw these guys handle their kids. And so, like, for two, three years, I acted, I treated my daughter how they treated their little girls. And I would say the same things to my daughter eventually that they were saying to their kids.

And they, like, taught me how to be, like, a father and, like, a man to kids and a man to a woman, you know? And so it's like a blessing, but it's a weird, it's a dark moment in my life, but it's also the blessing that I ran to these people in general. But so, like, to fast forward to 2007. Before you go there, I mean, I think the point that stands out to me in what you just shared is that these things, are not black and white. It's in the same way that we were characterizing alcohol as a solution to a problem, you could look at this community of people and now, in retrospect, realize, like, that was a bad decision. That was a potentially dangerous environment for me. I'm grateful I got out of it. But they were fulfilling a need. Like, they were solving a problem for you by being

a mentor in a certain kind of way that you needed and lacked and didn't have in your upbringing. Yeah. And I'm like super thankful for, you know, to them and for them. I'm not really in communication with them that much at all anymore. But like they, they kind of gave me the blueprint of like how I can move in the world and how I can thrive in the world. You know, I just got to replace, you know, you know, from drugs to something different. But like how do you carry yourself through these business interactions and how do you like stand tall, I guess, on your, on your, what you believe is true and right. And how do you move forward with that, like with some sense of confidence? and built. So like that was just a, that was definitely a blessing. So you have kids all of a sudden. Yeah. How old are you? I'm 40. Oh, at the time, 23. 23 in 2007. So I imagine that's a, that was a catalyst or kind of a recognition like, hey, like I got to like figure my shit out a little bit. Yeah. So like I'm so I started like I'm going to get a job now because like I can't, I don't want to be like the movies just doing one more little thing for a couple dollars here and then. like you're in prison. So I'm like, all right, let me get a job. And I was, I said no to using

like some of the cars that I had access to before because I just didn't want to have to be pulled in that direction. So I'm like, no, I'm good. And I was paying for a cab just to get back and forth to this church that I got a job at. There was the church that my mom, like, kind of grew me up in, and like for my high school years. And so I'm working at this church and also sort of trying to play that lifestyle of trying to make money every now and then if I could. But it was just like this hard thing to go from like having everything that I needed and making really good money to all of a sudden trying to raise another person and figure like this like life out. And it was just my mom came to visit and because she was living in Massachusetts at the time.

And she came to visit for a few days and I was just trying to hold it together like as much as I could and act like this like $20 that I had was like enough. and she like saw it didn't say too much her and my grandma came pick me up and took me to like target or something like that to buy a bunch of stuff and they're like oh we just want to help you with like a homewarming type of gift and she called me like a month or so after visiting and was like I see that you're I don't know what you're doing or what you were doing I see that you're trying to make a difference or a change in your life and you're trying to take care of this little girl if you want, you could come to Massachusetts live with me. And you know, you can bring, you know, you can bring Iris or mom.

You can bring her too. And you guys can start over if you want. And she's like, it's different. It's Newbyport, Massachusetts. It's like as white as you can get. You know, and I'm like, let me talk to her and see what she said. And she said, yes, like within like first conversation. She's like, yeah, sure, let's get out of here.

because she everybody saw me like that cared I guess about me saw me trying to figure this thing out and not like resort to what I thought was the easiest way to make money at that moment at that point and so I moved my mom the gosh my mom was like really close friends with came picked me up on September 10th 2007 and we drove from you know through Canada to go to Massachusetts all my stuff was in the back of a pickup truck And we just started this life over. And I started working at like a donut shop for seven days. And then the eighth day, I started at Lowe's home improvement. Yeah.

Worked there for two months. And while I was working there, I got hired at ReloTrain's auto relocation for at the entry level position. Like the money I was making was like kind of laughable. But it was definitely my first desk job. And I started at the lowest position you could get. And just over those years, I just kept kind of climbing and kind of instilling like what I saw my mom and my sister and my grandma do in their lives. Which is just like keep going forward and figure it out. So how many years were you in Massachusetts before you moved back to Detroit?

I moved back to Detroit, I think, in like 2014. Oh, wow. So I was there for like seven years. Yeah. So like a six or seven years I was out there. And in that time, like I stopped working for a reload train. trans in 2025. And in that time, I went from the person that just talks on the phone about the relocation,

that adds, puts it together to sales, to creating a position for like director of sales. And then just kept working my way up because I was just making a name for myself in the industry and really like helping the company grow for it really quickly. But all that time, I was like, my addiction was just there. And it was just increasing. And then I was drinking during the job. I had like liquor in Red Bull bottles, you know, just thinking that the smell of the Red Bull would like mask the liquor.

But it was keeping me together, I thought. And a couple like scares, like health-wise and just like decision-making. But somehow, like I put this like string of years together where I was really thriving. The first time I saw an R2 in person, I got it immediately. This is the Rivian that a lot of people are going to be able to enjoy. Driving it with RJ only confirmed that. All right, so first impressions in my first experience in the R2. Nice.

All right, now I'm getting the feel. Yeah. It feels really tight. It feels nice, right? Yeah. Interestingly, like from a first impression point of view, when you see it from a distance, proportionally, it looks very similar to the R1. you know, like the way that it is designed, it looks kind of integral with the original.

It's quite a bit smaller. And so when you look, we look at them separately, sometimes people be like, is that an R1 or an R2? And they have a lot of similarities. But I actually think R2 ended up with a better set of proportions. And it's that kind of thinking that just exists across everything to try to deliver an experience that still feels really Vrvian-like, but at a fraction of the cost of R1. First impressions aside, there's a lot more to the R2 than what you see at first glance. To learn all about the R2, watch the rest of our conversation and book a demo drive at Stories.riven.com slash rich roll.

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Everything is in stock right now, though. So make sure you get it before it sells out. Go to freaksofnature.com and use the code rich roll to save 20% when you order now. So you're moving up in the job, but your quality of life is degrading. You have a 10-year run drinking as a 10-year-run. drinking as a parent also. Yeah. You know, that has to be like looking now, you know, backwards at those times.

Like, it seems like you have a great relationship with your kids now. I think so. I try to. She's 19. My son just turned 16. They, I mean, I don't think they remember me drinking, you know, but she remembers me as a dad then. So I don't know. I just don't really know, like, how much of that life she remembers.

But I'm so happy that, you know, that I've been sober going on, I've been sober over nine years now. And it's, I can't, I'm so thankful. I don't even necessarily have the words of like how happy and grateful I am to be in their lives and be in, and be a point of inspiration in a way or, you know, I don't. I don't hide, you know, the fact that I used to be an alcoholic or I am an alcoholic. When we first met, correct me if I'm not remembering this properly, but when we were talking, you were still sort of struggling with whether to share your addiction and sobriety story. I mean, obviously, you were much earlier in sobriety at that point. And now this is, you know,

it's sort of running first in terms of like how you communicate publicly. But the, recovery piece has become much more prominent in how you think about, you know, how you share your life. Yeah. It was definitely like I didn't being in corporate for so long and trying to build yourself, your personal brand, but then also you're working, you're representing a company. Like I didn't ever, I never talked about sobriety. Even after I got sober, I kind of was really quiet about it because you don't want to, you don't want to negatively impact a company. But I had to like come to terms with this is my personal brand. This is my message.

This is like could potentially be my purpose in the world as to share some of the things that I've learned. And I got on a podcast once. It was like a live with Believe in the Run. And he was like 30 minute little spy. He asked me some questions. And there was a moment that I could have talked about sobriety. And he like teed it up perfect for it.

And then I like pivoted and went back to running. And I got off that 30 minute live. felt so terrible like I missed an opportunity potentially help one person maybe. And I'm like, okay, if I'm going to do this whole time he runs thing and I ever get an opportunity to be on a podcast again, if someone asked me about that moment or there's a chance that I can talk about sobriety, I'm doing it. And I think that was when we met, it was like kind of right before that all that happened. And, you know, knowing that there's a you too out in the world that Lien's has.

heavily into that story gives like other people moments of clarity in a sense or I can do that too. And so in that moment, I'm like probably referenced to you and other people my brain like, they're doing just fine. And there's no one like shaming them for being, you know, attempting to be sober and stay sober and help other people. So that's when I leaned in. Like I'm telling this story because when I got sober and the first day at the first meeting I went to, I went into a room with, you know, it was in a nice area. There was nice cars outside. Walked inside, everybody, you know, the average age was probably like 45 to 50.

Everybody, no one looks like me in the room. And I walked in because the therapist told me that I should maybe check it out. And there was a guy that was going to be waiting on me to get there. So I'm like, okay. And I walked in, I'm like, these people will, there's no chance that they understand what I've been through. Yeah. And then I heard. This is like a gross point crowd.

Yeah. I told you this, you know, I was born in Grosse Point. Okay, yeah. You remember? I think we talked about that. It was actually West Bloomfield. Okay. So basically the same thing.

Yeah. Maybe even a little shushy. Yeah, definitely a little more. And it was like a Bentley outside and like a Porsche or something like that. This isn't going to work. But then I'm sitting there and all these people are telling their story and they literally in some way said how they, in their stories, they shared how I felt, you know, about myself. addiction and all that. So I'm like, these are my people, almost immediately. Before I even said a word,

I'm like, these are my people and I need to be here. If I can do that randomly on a podcast or in some version of like a caption of a post that I share about some shoes and I mentioned something else that strikes like that chord of like, oh, I do, I resonate with this. And if he can do it, I can do it too. And that's been my theme for like everything that I've done, whether it's, you know, these big races or just going after marathons, it's not necessarily like, I want to inspire you to do this, but I want to inspire you to do some form of whatever that next step is for you. So that was really what I was grappling with was like, can I share this and is it helpful? And then I had to think about like my life was saved in those rooms because people shared their stories authentically.

They didn't cut corners. They didn't try to preach to the thing. They literally just shared some of their most vulnerable. and scary and kind of like laughable stories. But it was what I needed to know that like it's not just me, you know? Yeah. Walk me up to your moment of clarity. Like how did you wake up one day and decide this is the day that I'm going to get sober?

I'm going to go to my first day meeting. The day was January 11, 2017. That was the last drink I had was January 10th. And leading up to that was like just a couple of years of just trying so hard to figure out how to string together a week or a month or whatever. And my friend Donovan, like best friend, brother met him when I was like 12. And we just were like inseparable for so long. Rest in peace. And he passed in March and March 2025.

And so he was, he definitely was alcoholic as well. He didn't ever say he was. But whenever, like, I would say that I wanted to stop drinking for a little bit, he would be like, all right, cool, I'll do it with you. And it was strange how quick he would, I knew he needed it too, but he was doing it for me, you know, in his head. But it, like, it let me keep trying to do it. So every time I would try and fail, like, I would tell him the truth.

And he'd be like, oh, you good, bro. Like, you know, you got a good job. Like, we kind of played it off and kind of row forward. But every time I would try to get worse and worse to the point where, like, my mom text me one day in January 2007 like right after the new year he and I were going to do this dry January thing and I got to like the third or fourth day into January went over his house our wives at the time we're you know we're drinking and I made it through the whole night no drinking and I woke up at like 2.30 in the morning my kids are downstairs with his kids everybody

sleep in the house at 2.30 in the morning and I like like went into the kitchen, found the bottle of vodka, and just started drinking in the middle of the night. No one's awake. There's no reason why I would need to do this, you know, in my rational mind. And then just got drunk and fell asleep. And that was the silliest and dumbest and saddest that I've ever been. You know, it's like, at least like I could have caved like while people were awake.

You just woke up in the middle. You couldn't even sleep through the night. There's everyone's, there's nothing going on. There's no benefit to me being tipsy, drunk, or anything alike at that point. There's no awkward social situation that you have to show up for. Yeah. I just had to stay asleep. I could have just went back to sleep.

But I'm like, let me go have this drink. And then that was just, I woke up the next day. And the days after that, I would just, obviously right back to it. But I just felt that was the worst that I felt. And I'm just like, I'm going to die like this. Like this is how I die. is in a car or, you know, I'm already, I'm 30, whatever, 32. It's going to be blood pressure because my blood pressure was high at the time.

You already had high blood pressure. Yeah, like, I was in the hospital when I was 30 or something like that, 2930, with 182 over like 120 something. Wow. Like, at this point, from then on, I could feel whenever my blood pressure would get high enough, like my hand was hard to go numb. Like, so I was playing with, like, dying just like my dad did, you know. Yeah, you have this father figure looming over you who died so young.

If I can't be better than him, I might as well die sooner than he did. It's ridiculous, I guess. So like that's, but that's where I was. Like that's like, this is just how it ends. You know, there's no, I cannot beat this. It will not happen. And it just is what it is. And my mom, like, text me one day.

She's like, how's my son? And this was like a day or so after that episode. And I'm like, normally I just go. I'm doing great. Kids are good, blah, blah, blah. I just told her not good. And simply, like, just that quick, not good, didn't divulge what was happening. And she said, you know, you should call, you should reach out to EAP, you have insurance, employee assistance program, reach out. They'll maybe help you. And so I did what she told me to do. And they called me like the next day and was like, hey, you know, they do like a little screening thing to figure out what type of therapist maybe you need.

I complained about family stuff and blamed everything. The reason why I was calling is not my fault. It's not addiction. It's just, you know, whatever. But she asked me how many times I drink a day or a week. And I'm like, it really just depends on like what it is. If it's beer, it's a ton. If it's liquor, it's seven, eight or whatever until I can't anymore.

And I wake up in the morning I drink. And she's like, okay. So you were honest in that answer. So like I told her the truth. I told this lady on the phone the truth. And then they like, okay, we have an appointment. for you on January 11th with this person, and she's a family therapist. And so I'm like, okay, cool. January 10th, I drank at like 10.30 p.m. I'm like, I can't go there smelling like liquor,

so let's stop here. So I walked in and she starts talking about. I started complaining about family and this and that, it works hard. She was like, well, how much do you drink, you know, or do you think that I have a drinking problem? I'm like, yeah, man, I drink a bit. And then she asked me how much. And I told her the truth again. She was like, okay, well, the cool thing is, I'm a family therapist, but I'm also, I'm actually mainly a substance abuse counselor. And I'm like, I almost walked out like, you guys tricked me. You know what I'm saying? But they, she said, well, you definitely have a drinking problem.

I'm not going to call you an alcoholic, but you have an issue. There's a meeting that happens on Sunday. I know a guy that goes there. He's a nice guy. He's around your age. You should go with him. Just meet him there. And then so I walked out of that office and was like, all right, well, how about I just don't

drink from Wednesday to Sunday. And at that point, that's like four or five days. And that is a stretch for me. But somehow, because of, I say, like, those three truths, I was able to, like, the weight of the addiction was lifted enough for me to hold and not drink from January 11th to that to when I walked in that meeting. Right. Also, you're a man of great integrity.

And when you say, I'm going to not drink for these four days, like, you're a man of your work. Yeah, yeah. I've been able to, yeah. Yeah, I didn't tell her that. I just said that in my head. Like, I'm just not going to drink. But it's that, it's that thing, that superiority complex, like I am, you know, like I'm stronger than anyone while also feeling like I'm the worst person in the world. Yeah. You're simultaneously, like, inhabiting those two ideas about yourself.

I don't know. Like, I don't know if I ever, I always thought that I could be really good at something. But I just didn't think that I was, I had what it took to reach, like, my potential. you know like that's just it like I knew that I was like smart enough I knew I could talk enough I knew I could make friends of people that I needed to and talk to whoever my mom you know my family raised me so well who else who else could drink as much as you were drinking and still move up the corporate ladder at your job and be a parent you know like you know you're like I'm I'm like crushing it I mean low key like low key Renaissance man type stuff yeah yeah but you know like I think that I just never looked at myself well ever

You know, like even during that time working for that one company for 17 years, I was just telling somebody other day, like, I had job offers that were easily anybody else would have taken. But I can't take that job because you're going to, you'll find out. They'll find out. You'll find out. Yeah. Because if whatever reason, this company, they don't, they're not paying attention to me like that. But you're going to find out that I'm an asshole or that I'm like just drinking my life away. So I'll stay here because they're sort of blind to what I'm doing.

And I have a set up where. They need me. They like, you know, like. And so like I just didn't have the confidence. at that time to like make a decision that would put me at risk of being like found out you know right but leading up to that like moment of of like walking into her office was just I think it's just the truth part you know like I like you we lie about our alcoholism and the things we're doing so much it's just it's like second nature or first nature almost just to hide lie um you know

how many drinks have you had too, you know? But it's like I finally was able to tell the truth about it to someone outside of Donovan, you know, and people that I probably wouldn't have told the truth too. And it just, like, loosened its like grip enough for me to see some space in between, you know, myself in this drink. And I just like thank God for like, for whatever happened. Like I was able to tell the truth at that moment. Yeah.

So you go to that first meeting. you hear a version of your story, something clicks in you. How do you go from being a guy who can't go three or four days without drinking to not drinking for coming up on 10 years at this point from that January 11th, 2017 day? You know, the meetings saved my life not just like that day, but having a place to go that felt like home more than home did allowed me to just continue to work through some of those worries and issues that I thought were just so important to me. Like when you go into a meeting, you complain about something or you're worried about something. Like somebody that has like 15, 20 years says like the most simple, stupid statement that just means like, oh, relax.

that's one day at a time. I'm worried about three months away because I got to go to a conference. One of the endless aphorisms that are so annoying. It's like, bro, shut up. Like, okay, though, I get it. You know? But it was, it's all the things that I, like, I learned in the program. And as I worked through those, like, first few years of, you know, being able to bounce

ideas or thoughts or worries off of people who weren't judging me, but, like, saw themselves or heard themselves in what I was worried about. and responded in a way that was much more passionate and like caring than someone who doesn't understand who can have a drink and not drink for three, four days. People like that don't understand like how silly some of the things you worry about, but how large those issues can become if they go unchecked. And so being in the program those first few years was so I needed every, I needed that more than anything and I also think that I'm blessed to not have the urge to drink and it kind of

happened really fast like once I'm like fully made that decision that this is rob along I just haven't had that oh I think I need a drink or oh I should drink right now I've just I just haven't had that and I know people struggle with that like every day so I know that I'm blessed and kind of rare in that in that aspect but I think it was just because of how for me how much I really wanted to be here, but just couldn't see a way, and they showed me the way to it, and I just accepted it wholeheartedly.

And yeah, I probably still act like an alcoholic and process things in a weird way that only we would, but at the same time, it just doesn't lead me back to wanting a drink. Because I know, and I also know that, I fully believe that I'll die if I go back to drink. What do you think the difference is between someone like yourself who can walk into a meeting, desperate, still not sure, not only like am I going to be able to be a sober person,

but do I even really want this? And yet building this foundation of sobriety and the person who has walked some version of your path who goes in and, and feel similarly about themselves and their relationship with alcohol and, like, can't get it or is in and out all the time. Is it something more than deeply wanting it? Is it a function of willingness? Like, what is the differentiator between the person who really kind of locks in and, like, does the work and builds a new life and the person who just continues to struggle? I think, I mean, the first thing that comes to mind to me is, like, ego. I mean, we have this identity built in who we think we are.

And the reason why it takes people to get to rock bottom, whatever your rock bottom is to make that change, is because you're still attached to that ego or to that identity. And anything that rubs against that, you're going to have some unwillingness to shift or make the change. So, like, for me, my rock bottom doesn't look maybe nearly as bad as someone else's, but I was just ready to change. And like I wanted it, you know, bad enough to be willing to do all the things and say all the silly statements. But I think it really just comes down to maybe not wanting it,

but just being open and ready to take the suggestions of this book or these people that are ahead of you in this journey. And also just like surrendering to the fact that you, you really don't have any control. like whether it's over alcohol or drugs or whatever, you just don't have it in life in general. We just have not, the only control we have is just how we respond to these moments

and to these opportunities or happenings in life. And if you can just get to the point where you just are okay with like that, then that's the building blocks for whatever's next. Yeah. But you just see so many people kind of holding on to their identity or who they think they should be. They want to be sober, but there's also this thing that's holding them too close to what they built during their addiction.

They haven't fully surrendered to the idea of powerlessness. Yeah. Yeah. And the idea that this has to come before everything else and there's no quick fix. Like, you really have to just be like, all right, like, what's it going to be? Yeah. You know, I'm, you know, Odysseus on the raft, you know, leaving Calypso behind in full surrender and letting the gods direct the current, you know, and hopefully I'll end up home, but it's really out of my hands.

So silly. I almost like cried in that movie when he did that because it's like, I mean, that's how it feels. It's just like you. He's going through the 12 steps in that movie. We talked about this with Ryan Holiday. I love that episode, by the last. Yeah. Thank you for that.

And it's like, finally, you know, like. Like now he's going to get it. Like the only way he's going to solve this problem is by by like relinquishing the idea that he can solve it himself. Yeah, you just have, yeah, you just have to have to let go. And if that's what it feels like, it feels like you're, you're just laying. It's not like they sent them in a little boat with a paddle. It's literally just lay on these couple pieces of wood and just float and see what happens.

And that's what it feels like. Even though we were like probably on a makeshift boat with like 20 holes in the bottom going to sink anyway, we're really. like holding on to this thought of we should be able to this should be different it should be a plan it should be something more you know amazing to think about like this better journey but we really just have to like let go and follow the like the tenants of the program but then also just relinquishing all control of what we thought we were controlling because that's one thing like for me at least alcoholism seems like this wild thing that you're just so out of

of control, but there's this weird false sense of control within ourselves. We're like, we know what we're doing. We've crafted this master plan of how to be drunk around everybody, no one knows. It's this false sense of security that we still try to hold onto as we're like trying to step away from it. Yeah, well said. When is the running? That was my goal is to get you to say well said at least once.

I got, well, all right, goal unlocked. I have some goals also. I'll show them at the end. We're not there yet. When is running enter the picture? So running enters in 2018. So I was like after getting sober, like two weeks into that walk, I could start to see myself in the mirror,

like physically. I'm like, oh, I look like crap. With my shirt off in the mirror, like this is, I feel terrible still. I look bad. So let me start going to. the gym. So I was going to the gym six or seven days a week. I just started going. And I got real buff. Like I was really into it. And my name, I forgot what my name was before. But my name was

Tommy Guns on Instagram after, like, I started getting like real buff. You had a, you had some other stage name on Instagram before that? I mean, it was like, you can't remember what it is. No, I think it was like something about cooking or something. Like, because I like cooking because I could drink while I was cooking and I enjoyed that that process. All right. So now you're, so now I'm Tommy Guns. Tommy Guns.

I'm in the gym like heavy. Like I was actually. Guns with a Z of course. Guns with a Z. Yeah, yeah. We stayed branded right on. But then so like I was still working at the job. I had a client that was based in Chicago and he's like in 2018.

He's like, hey, um, you're fit. We run the Chicago rock and roll half marathon every year as my, my company who raised a bunch of money for a charity called Move for Hunger. And I was very familiar with the charity. Like I met the guy who owns or who started that the same like my first business trip. He was on that first business. He was his first business trip.

So shout out to Adam. But so I'm like, yeah, I'll raise some money for the charity. So I raised some money. But I'm training for this race. Training. You know, it was like six weeks of just like kind of like I jumped into a couple like five Ks to see what I could do. and then I ran this race in Chicago. And at that point, it was like a little over a year of sobriety,

but somehow, like, getting on the line with all these people that I don't know, like thousands of it was a big race, thousands of people I don't know, running through the streets of Chicago, all with like the same similar goal. Some people are going to get there faster or slower. But like we all did it together. And it felt like this, number one, felt a lot like the rooms to me. somehow in sobriety. And then secondly, no disrespect to my kids or whatever,

but it was probably one of the most proud moments that I've had in my life to be somewhere so far from like from what I thought was possible. Like growing up, I didn't grow up seeing people like run half marathons for fun. Like my mom did like a couple charity walks and stuff like that for like breast cancer, like back when I was a kid. But I didn't know anybody that would run 13.1 miles in a row on purpose. and pay for it and go do it. So it was like, I'm so proud of myself at this point.

And so as soon as I got over like a metatarsal fracture that I had right before the race, I ran anyway, because that's what we do. Yeah. I'm like, I like this running thing. Let me just keep doing it. So then I was just run a little bit more and started training and started signing up for different stuff.

And then eventually my cousin was like, you ain't Tommy guns anymore, you time he runs. And I looked on Instagram really quick, put the R in to see if it's available. And it was, so I took it. And that's all she wrote. That's all she wrote. Now we're sitting here.

You're off to the races. Literally. From that point forward, you've gone on to, I mean, how many marathons have you run at this point? 17. 17. You did all six majors. Did you do that in a single year?

I did run all six majors at the time when there was only six still. It was the last year there was six. 2024, I did all six in a year. I did Osaka Marathon seven days before Tokyo, which is the first marathon major of the year. So I did all six in one year, but I had done multiple of them many different times. But I got my six star metal thing in London that year. Yeah. And your marathon PR is like 246 or something?

246. 58? 246. So you're quick. You've matured into like an excellent marathon runner. Now you're plying your trade on the trails. Yeah. You've done the Havolino 100.

You did 100K race also. You did the Speed Project and you recently did Western States. Western States 100, yeah. Do I get all of them? Yes, you did. Yeah. So you stepped into this whole other world. Along the way at some point in your running journey, you decided to be kind of a content creator in this space.

I'm interested in how that evolved. Like this thing that was a very personal kind of self-discovery relationship with running now becomes like a, you know, kind of a public relationship that you're having. And now it's like a business. You know, it's like you're a running influencer, quote unquote, in the best kind of interpretation of that phrase that has a kind of pejorative connotation. When I first started running, I was already making like content and stuff like on LinkedIn for work. So I was very familiar with like just making content and editing videos. So when I started running, I started posting more. And the cool part about the sobriety thing, going to the gym, and then the running was I would share just what I did.

And some of the things I was doing so far outside of what people that I knew would see on a day-to-day basis, people responded to it really well. It wasn't about influencers because there was no influencers to me at like 2019 or 18. But the people give me like little kudos here and there saying like, oh wow, this is really cool. Keep going. Oh, wow, you're a year sober. Great. keep going. That's what I needed. I needed like some of that reinforcement that that what I did matter not only to me but it potentially mattered to other people. And I just needed that nudge to keep pushing. So like as I that the journey went on, I started just getting more, you know, just a little better at making content,

seeing people on YouTube do cool videos. So I tried to make my own little cool videos on Instagram. But then after like during 2020, obviously, I mean I was already working from home because I already moved back here. I mean back to Michigan. again. So I was, you know, I just had a little bit more time because everything slowed down, work slowed down. So then I started, you know, really kind of leaning in and making some content. And then one thing that I felt, I felt like that was very prevalent in that moment for me is like after like COVID happened. So obviously like life is strange and weird and kind of scary because you're like, who, what's next? But then Amad Arbery, George Floyd, it's like, okay, like,

Number one, as a black man in America, I felt very just vulnerable at that time. That my job could be just gone because of COVID. My life could be gone because of, you know, anything or racism. So I'm looking at my kids like if something happens to me, what have I left behind for them? The fact that I'm sober, sweet, you know. But I'm like, let me start doing something that I feel like they can be, they can see. and something that's like a little more tangible than just like he was a cool guy and he ran or something like that. So I started a, I heard this phrase said run, run eat sleep repeat like years before.

And so I'm like, you know, I'm about to print shirts and make shirts to say run eat sleep repeat. So that was like my like foray into like starting a company and having shirts for sale. People liked it. People were supporting it. And as I was doing that, like my social media presence was kind of growing like very slowly. But then I'm like, okay, how do I sell these shirts? Like, what can I do around that? And then watching your pot, I'm like, I could do it like a podcast, right?

And so I started doing live videos of the Run Eat, Sleep show. So then I started doing live videos with people I knew. I would ask people to be on the show. And I started interviewing, like, really big names in the industry or in the running world as I kind of went on. So everything just started like growing at that time. And I was also doing the Tommy Runs thing, also doing the show. But I was making a lot of contacts with brains because of the show. So I was just like they were feeding each other.

And then eventually I got to the point where Tommy Runs was just doing well enough where me doing this show interviewing other people didn't feel like my voice anymore because Tommy Runs was my voice. And I could talk about sobriety and talk about the things that I'm feeling on the other side of the world. You know, like I was in, I was in Tokyo with my mom because she came on that trip to run the Tokyo Marathon. I was there the day, like the day that. my dad that I was the same exact age as my dad when he passed. Like, because I was very familiar. Our birthday is only five days apart. So I know like February 19th is the day he passed.

I know, so I knew on this day I'm the exact same age as he was, you know. So like I'm able to share that story directly through the time he runs thing. And I can lean into the, the, the what I think is potentially helpful, maybe very vulnerable, but helpful for other people in that position. And so I just kept building that thing, slow down on the show and lean more into the time he runs thing and started working with brands because of those relationships. That's just been my like my journey a little bit. What is the mission that you're on? Like what is the purpose of all of this? Like what are you aiming for or trying to accomplish in the

public facing aspect of running these races and training for them and sharing your sobriety story? Imposter syndrome going crazy right now. To inspire people through telling my story and doing these things like in an authentic way. You know, like if I'm if I say yes to doing a race, uh, it's obviously for me because I learned in the program, like I have to put a lot of my decisions with me first in mind to make sure that like whatever, that I'm okay and I want to do this and I can be a value to the people around me at least. So I have my own like personal journeys and like this is why I'm going to do that because I want to do it. I know that it'll push me to to work hard to get there. But then I share all this stuff and run all these races.

to present like my vulnerable self to people and try to make it look good and fun and cool. But if I can go run six or seven marathons in a year or the Speed Project from LA to Las Vegas, you know, 440 miles, if that thing kind of clicks somebody into being like, oh, well, then I can do like a 5K or 10K or whatever, or even a marathon. then that's what, you know, that helped him doing that help me.

You know, pass the drive-through on the way home or like not eat the whole bag of chips. Like it doesn't have to be running. No, it doesn't have to be. Inspiration is transferable. Yeah. So it's like if I can just be real open and honest in this journey and do things that kind of light me up, then I want to inspire people along the way. And some of that, like when I started their company and selling clothes and stuff like that,

that was also like in a way is like, what can I do that makes me feel good? enough that I can position this and share in a way that someone else can be inspired in some way. But that also goes back to the sobriety thing, is just people sharing their stories. They weren't doing it for me. They weren't sharing their drunken story for me and their 20 years of sobriety for me. But them being real and open and showing the process that they went through, that's what inspired me to change my life and saved my life. Let's talk about representation. When I asked you about your mission, a big piece of this is about representation.

What is the black community's relationship to running generally to the marathon space and now, more recently, the trail space? So I'll just speak from my perspective. Most of us didn't grow up seeing running done as a hobby or for fun or for health or for whatever. We just, we thought, like, we've always thought that, you know, running and jogging is a white people thing to do. Yeah, I listened to the podcast that you did with our friend, Zach Clark. Yeah. And you're like, no offense, like jogging's a white people thing. Yeah, it is.

You know, I mean, it was. And that's what, well, at least that's what our perspective was on it. Because we just didn't, we just didn't grow up seeing that, like, in our areas and neighborhoods. And if we did, it was, it was definitely not somebody that looked like us. So, you know, as I started running in 2018. You know, I'd go to some of these races and it wasn't terrible, but it was still like very much an outlier thing to do as a, as a black man in America to be like running marathons. And I know that there's plenty of people that were doing it before us, but that's just like, you know, you come into these races and you don't feel represented well. What's interesting about that is, you know, at the elite level, the highest level of performance from the 100 meters to the marathon, it's dominated by black people.

Yeah. But then like, that's not trickling down. No, because the participation level. I mean, okay, like, you're not jogging with Noah Liles. You know, like, he's not jogging, you know, but like, but then on the other side, like when you talk about the marathons, I mean, they are black folks, but they're also just different different. I mean, they're, you know, just from there are different countries. They're born in different circumstances. And that doesn't necessarily, like, that just doesn't resonate with, you know, people from Chicago or Detroit or whatever, you know, there's. You know, just not us still in some way. Like we're just like, oh, that's them because they're from Kenya or whatever. So it just, there's a disconnect there when you, when in reality, they really shouldn't be because there should be like, oh, that's obvious. We should be able to do that. But as I like started to run and grow in that space more and then 2020 happened and then Black Lives Matter happened, then people are starting to like, we're starting to gain steam. People are inside or like, you know, not going to work necessarily. So they have more time to try to find recreation. So we saw that running boom and black people were involved in that. And then you have, you know, people that are

out like really pushing forward like Allison DeSere, like shout out to her. You know, like people like that were like outside like talking about these issues and how, you know, the running community or running industry needs to open and at least, you know, make space for this to be a path, you know. And as that happened, you know, you got run close popping up. Shout with like we run 3 in Detroit. in all these big run, the huge run clubs right now. It's like started in those, like around that time and gave black people, um, a space to come and hang out and run two, three, four, 10 miles, whatever that felt like this is our thing.

And we do belong at least in this spot. And so the more you saw that happen, the more you saw that trickle into like 5Ks, 10Ks, marathons. And as I'm going through like my marathon journey and sharing it intentionally, um, not being like, hey, I'm the only black person here, but it's like, hey, I'm here. And here's the process that I went through and sharing it in a way that I think looks cool. And then you start seeing more and more people gravitate towards like, okay, marathon's next. And let's, what are we going to do? And as I saw like that thing happened, now that I've like kind of stepped into trail, I just walking into a

running space that doesn't mirror or even closely resemble the progress that's happened on the road. feels very, it feels intentional. It feels like how is this possible? Right. Like, how is this happening? I mean, the trail, you know, racing, running world is about as wide as it gets. Yeah. So in being closer to it, like from the outside looking at, it's like, oh, this is intentional, for sure.

But then you get closer to it and, you know, you maybe talk to the right people and you start seeing like what the, what the actual intention is, but maybe there's not enough paths or like whatever tools for this to change rapidly. So as I'm like in this space, I'm like, how can I, what can I do to like help this? Because I feel like I was, I helped a bit like on the roadside just by sharing like my journey and pushing forward and speaking on podcast and sharing like my perspective on like what black running is and what like the black experience. are at these races and traveling around the world, how can I mimic that or like lean into that feeling

of not only showing or making a statement that shows that there's so much room to grow here, but doing it in a way that's pulling people in and not necessarily speaking at the, like, not avoiding the issue, but not, but all my focus is on how do I, I make connections for like someone that's in Atlanta. What if I post a video or a picture or a shirt that makes somebody say like, I want to support that, but I don't run on trails. So let me go find a

trail. Or, oh, if Tommy just ran Western States, I don't even know what Western States is or like why it's important, but it seems like it's important. I can find a trail near me. And I'm not necessarily saying like we all need to be out there, but the fact that it's definitely, it's just so much different the road. Like, you don't run for five miles on the road and then go, oh, well, look at this. Like, it's like, you know, it's, I was listening to Oprah Pod as she did the other day. And she was talking about hiking is her favorite thing to do right now. And she said that, like, you don't look at the journey where you're going. You don't look at the top of it the whole time. You just kind of head down doing your thing. And every, like, 10 minutes or so, you can, like,

look backwards to see how far you come. And when you're running these trail races, like, if it's a long enough race, you could run for 10 minutes, 15 minutes. And if you can look around, the view changes so often that it's so like you find yourself looking at things that you've never dreamed that you'd see. And I want that experience for as many people as possible, especially people of color that like grew up that didn't think that they'd ever see themselves on a mountain. I said on a panel once, there's like, we did a, a little shakeout run for TrailConn last year. And it's a four-mile run.

It's not very far. You know, it's just four miles. And you get to the top of that thing. It's like right up near the escarpment. And you turn around and you look and you see views that a picture just, a phone couldn't capture the beauty of this thing. And so if I can share my journey that would make someone potentially want to find that in their way, that's like what I have to do.

Yeah. It's very much attraction, not promotion. It's kind of a recovery principle. You're not trying to convince people that this is what they should do. You're kind of modeling the aspiration of doing it yourself as a magnet to attract more people and demonstrate that it's possible. But when I think about why the trail community is the way that it is, I mean, you use the word intentional. I mean, what are the barriers to access our economic, obviously. There's proximity to trails, you know, for communities that are in urban environments,

et cetera. There's not seeing somebody that they recognize or, you know, feel like represents who they are in this community. And now you're very much like serving that role for a lot of people. What are the other factors that you think have contributed to this? And beyond what you're doing individually, what are the solutions? to diversifying this sport. Because it started so granola. It's not like these were cheap races.

Nobody was signing up for them. Now there's a lot of money in it. It's very different. But it's not like, you know, lacrosse or hockey or, you know, or cycling or something that, you know, there's a huge capital expenditure involved, except that there's having to travel to these places and that's obviously expensive. Yeah. I mean, so I think it's just the sum of the solution is like back to an. intention. You know, like, it's, I'm a brand guy like worker brands. So it's, it's a lot of my

thought when I see like some of these spaces. The community itself plays a big role in like how much they're like trying to extend that net or like the like how much are you trying to show that this is an option like and attract people in. But then you're also like I also look at the some of these, the brands. I mean, because you know how it works. Like you choose some brands. they go on a trip to Tahoe or whatever, they're making a choice of who they want to be there. And it seems like really simple and little, but like, you know, I'm not saying every brand invite me somewhere, but like if there's people that are already in trail and they may not be the biggest trail influencer in the world, it's a vote to be like, you know, I do want trail as a

brand. I do want trail to look different. I do want trail to represent our customer base. I do want Trail to feel like everyone should be able to experience something like this. So our vote as a brand is to make sure that we're finding authentic people that are really into this thing. But then they also serve as a catalyst or like people that will open the aperture of a community to be like, hey, you know, that's an option too. Because I think, you know, there's obviously some economic issues of how or in proximity of trail and all that stuff. but there's also a lack of or has been a lack of a communication of like the possibilities of it just period because two years ago I didn't see if you can see it and you're interested you'll you'll make it happen you know like you can make it happen at least so I think that

it just has to be more of a vote and a real thought like let's look back at road in 2019 2020, 2021, and how much brands leaned in to making sure that that Roe was more diverse. These races are more diverse in advertising and brand trips and blah, blah, blah. That was a very strategic effort, you know, on them in response to a lot of pressure, but they responded decent to it. So like maybe we should think about for trail, let's implement some of that and lean into as a community, whether it's brand, whether it's organizations, whether it's conferences, how do you lean into like, we want this place to look like, you know, what we want a random trail race and, you know,

close to Chicago to look, you know, because this isn't about getting more people to one spot or like one race in access to Western States or TrailCon or Broken Air. Like that's a separate, that's like an entity within itself. Like that's an isolated thing. But there is access to trails much closer than that and much cheaper than going to fly in the Tahoe California. Sure. I mean, most urban areas have some kind of natural preserve situation that isn't that far away. But it's also a mindset thing, like the idea of like I'm an urban dweller, this is my environment. Like I don't belong in those spaces.

Like it's a, it's before you even get into trail running, it's like, oh, just like I'm going to go for a walk in a nearby four. forest, you know, could be a leap for, you know, a certain person who was raised to believe a certain thing about, like, who they are. Yeah, like, when I came here, it's, it's, you know, I see a mountain close by. Two years ago, I would have just saw a mountain. Like, that just happened, whatever, I don't care. But as soon as I see it now, I'm saying, like, oh, maybe I should look on, on an app to find out there's a trail or not. And I think that that's, like, that little switch of there's a potential really cool view or like a really good workout that could be had if I just find a trail. And a lot of people just don't have that. Like if you, I don't even know all the

trails in my area. You know, and there's people that have been in trail that would be like, oh, bro, there's a trail 15 minutes for me. Like, what do you mean? And that to me is just saying, like, let's open up like the direct line to like this is a possibility. And even if you only run on trail like once or whatever or you don't. It should be an option or an unlock there. And I think that that's the way towards progress is opening that thought up to as many people as possible. So they can decide how far they want to go. When we push for like more people to more black folks and brown folks to be on the road at these marathons, that doesn't mean, you know, everybody that was inspired by that doesn't mean that they ran a marathon, but they might have started going to their local run club.

they might have just decided to get to run by themselves and get healthy. But how do we just like get that rolling and get that momentum as a people and as a community? Were you the only black person running Western States? No. There was only a few, but I don't know all of the people, but I think there was at least two. I was trying to remember if I saw any other black person at TrailCon other than you. Oh, okay. Well, TrailCon was a little different.

I was the only person that was, I think that was like Speed that spoke at TrailCon. year that was black and there were like a lady that I know that was there she was black she counted I think it was like four of us at trail-com and then probably less than that thousands of people that attended that event the trailcom part in some of the western states part to me that's it the brands have a lot to do with that I think you know they spend a lot of money to be sponsors to these to these things yeah it's become a very commodified event like all the vendors and like you know ACG had a huge, like, presence there.

Like, every brand was showing up at TrailCon. Like, and, you know, they're investing money in this space. Like, it's a very commercial prospect right now. Yeah. And so, but like in that, you know, if a brand's a big sponsor, they're not, it's not just them. They're bringing people with them. They're, we know this influencer market is what it is.

They've got five, 10 people there just making content, having fun, running the races, being involved in the, in the conference. So it's like at that moment, I think what it was before. and it's missing out on what it could be by, you know, virtue of having a variety of perspectives. Yeah, because like the more, you know, to the people that like are romanticizing like the old days and keeping some of these things, you know, so pure.

I understand that. Like it's, I mean, I get that. And there are certain races that probably will always stay that way. Like Barclay Marathons is never going to change, you know. Some of the, would you see some of the progress and innovation that's happened on the road when it comes to like run clubs and race, different types of races, different types of brands,

making different types of clothes and apparel. All that came because just more people from different backgrounds were attracted to it. And we've seen the running boom because of so many different people. It wasn't because running stayed the same. So if you look at trail, like how can we bring more people

from some thought they would be there forever? Some never even imagined it. But those two people come together, it's the possibility, is like kind of endless. Sure. That was the topic of at least one panel at trail con. Like there's a lot of discourse around like what's happening to the trail community.

You know, it's grown obviously. But, you know, there's a romanticization of like the early days where you would pitch your tent at the starting line. And it was, you know, a couple guys in vans or whatever. And now it is what it is today. Is this moving in the right direction? Is it not like there are. are protectionists, like we need to protect the purity of this culture. And then there are opportunists on the other side of that spectrum who are like looking at like the financial

opportunities that are available here. And in the middle, there's like, you know, a variety of opinions about like what this community should look like and what trail running should represent, et cetera. But the community is dictated by the people who are participating in that community. It's not dictated from above, like, this is who we are and what we are. It's like the people who inhabit the ecosystem are the ones who get to decide that. And unless you are onboarding a diversity of voices, it's going to, you know, remain stagnant and kind of stuck in what it was before. And it's missing out on what it could be by, you know, virtue of having a variety of perspectives. Yeah, because like the more, enough to the people that like are a romantic

exercising like the old days and keeping some of these things, you know, so pure. I understand that. Like it's, I mean, I get that. And there are certain races that probably will always stay that way. Like, Barclay marathons is never going to change, you know. Somebody's like, would you run Barclay? Hell no. Right. Like, so. I'm not ridiculous. But it's like to those people that like are trying to like hold on to that. The running boom has showed us that like if you don't open the door to new voices, the way the things are going with social media. it's going to happen. People are going to start running trail regardless whether you invite them or not,

or if they feel welcome by you or not. And so if you feel like a real trail purist and you want people to take care of the trail and you want people to make sure that they're respecting nature and all these different things, you should openly be a part of the growth of the sport. Instead of clinging to like, we can't do this because of all these reasons,

open up a bit and realize that you could be like the generation or the people that help guide this growth in a way that stays and maintains like this purity of it because we are in nature. It's not like we're just running down the street and there's some rules and guidelines that you should follow, you know, just because it's, we're running on borrowed land or taken land, you know, and so we should respect these things. And if you decide that you don't want this group to come because they are different, then they're probably going to do whatever they think is best for them at that moment. And that may not be in line with what some of the things you're trying to save.

And then so it's going to happen anyway. Is there anything else that we should talk about when we're talking about representation and inclusion? Like have I even asked the right questions? Is there something that I'm missing? No, I don't think so. Like you said earlier, I'm very much on that. I'm going on my journey, and I know that I represent. I know what I represent and I know who I am.

And so I intentionally just share because of that. And I'm not as well-versed on all the things that are like the way to move a culture and a movement forward. I just know that if I can use what I have in my, and the leverage. that I have with brands or the relationships that have with brands, then I'll just try to push in that way. Because if I can maybe risk or like, maybe not jeopardize, but if I can use some of those things that I have to say like, oh, hey, can we get a couple people, a couple more people invited to this space? Yeah. I wouldn't necessarily be invited by you. But just the fact that there's this, you know, dude with dreadlocks who's like running Western States and every, every other

dude kind of looks like the same guy. Yeah. You know, a skinny guy with, uh, you know, a skinny guy with, probably with a mustache and, you know. Some good mustache. Yeah. And, you know, listen, nothing but love. But, you know, I think it's really powerful. It's like you don't, like just your being there, you know, is making a statement louder than anything you could put into words.

And it's powerful. Like, if I could say, like, what I would love to recreate, I guess the feeling of or the thought of was like when I did the Speed Project and early 2025, going into that thing, what I saw, saw was who does this race if they do it solo is is like white and super tatted and really cool looking, you know. But then there was a guy named Malcolm who was the second person to do like the OG 340 mile route. He's a black dude from New York.

Explain what the Speed Project is for people that don't know before we get too deep into this. Speed Project is a unsanctioned race from Santa Monica Pier to the Las Vegas, the welcome to Las Vegas sign in Las Vegas, Nevada. It's the original route that they did was 340 miles on foot, but there are no rules as well. So, like, there's relay teams that do it. It's mainly a relay race. Most people do it.

Most people do it by relay, it's 340 miles, right? So how many people solo it? And when you say there's no rules, like, it doesn't even matter, like, what route you take to get there. Like, and people are taking all different kinds of routes. Yeah. So there's only, like I guess technically there's only one route. And it's like the OG route that's like if you're going to say you did the OG, this is the route you have to go.

And the other thing is shorter if you can find a way to do it while being safe and that I'll not, you know, whatever. You just get to go. So it can be as short as 200, like high high 200s or as long as 340 or unless you get lost, it could be more, I guess. But he had done, Malcolm had done the 340 mile route solo. And he was the second person to have done that OG route. and not gone like through some of the other ways that people have like carved into this thing now.

And he was really instrumental. I'm like once he found out that I was going to do it, he like, I met him before in like the marathon scene. But he hit me up and was like he was really helpful and like for me and my crew. So he kind of like gave us, gave me the like audacity to like continue to push for this and make sure I showed up. Like one thing he said was like don't come to this thing and then just kind of fit in with whatever. be Tommy runs like all the way you know so that's kind of the ethos of the whole event like you said like lots of tatty guys like there's a panache to this event that's very different from the traditional trail world like this is like it's very punk rock yeah it is it feels like he helped me by

just being him um and being being useful like resource wise and knowledge but then when i went about it i made sure like i lived up to like that part it's like i've been Tommy runs this whole time i did this on the road already, just make sure you pull up and beat you fully. And we captured it and made a little documentary and everything about it. You're saying that with a lot of humility. Like that documentary is incredible. Oh, thank you. Yeah, yeah, I watched it for a second time this morning.

It's really well done. It's beautiful. And it really illustrates the odyssey of this race and the highs and lows. Like, you just go to the depths of your capabilities and you're being tested, you know, to the fullest extent, you know, possible. And it's all illustrated and beautifully, beautifully filmed. So I encourage everybody to check out that documentary. I'll link it up in the show notes and stuff.

And it was called, and I called the hero. And I knew I was going to call a hero before. But it was really just, it wasn't necessarily like, I'm about to go be a hero. But it was that moment of that storyline of like, we all have to be like the hero of our own stories at some point. And we all did it at some point, whether we decided to like, I'm going to, lose weight, or I'm going to get sober, or I'm going to start a company, those moments where we had to decide to, like, no longer be the villain victim or guide for someone else, we had to be the

hero ourselves. And me telling, me doing this in like sharing my sobriety story and walk this whole time was just me deciding at one point I had to be like the hero of this journey and that hopefully people would watch it and decide to be the hero of theirs in some way. But the way that I shared it intentionally was like, I'm like told the guy, this dude named Olu, he shot it. It was his first time making a feature, like a feature-length film. He did just phenomenal job. He was crazy. I never had, didn't meet him until the day that we met in Santa Monica, or I met him

before at TRI. He took some pictures. I mean, that's how I knew about him. But spent six days, seven days with us. But I told that story like that openly and show, I may stop, please don't get all the highlights, like show all the, all the crap that's like makes it challenging. And then fast forward, the reason I brought it up is because like this year, shout out to young dude A Mitchie Paul from Boston. He ran, he's the fourth person to do the OG route, a young black guy from Boston.

And it was like he did it because he saw me do it. And I also felt like that's, it was cool because I also showed everything that I had to show. So it wasn't like I vainly inspired him. I showed him all the shit. And if you feel like you're watching what I'm doing and I share my story whether sobriety or being black in space, content creating or whatever, I want you to be inspired by something I do, but for the right reasons. The inspiration doesn't come from this idea that you're out crushing it. Like you're just so beaten up, dude. Like, it's shocking that you finish this race.

Like, you're so far away from Vegas, and you can't even walk, you know, and you've just got, like, an insane number of miles left before you're going to get there. And the inspiration is, like, how did he even, like, complete this thing? Like, you were just absolutely broken. That's what I wanted to show. Because that, to me, is the same story as us or me in sobriety. Because you're just, like, like, shredded to pieces at some point. and like how do you continue? Like how do you keep going?

And how do you make that decision for yourself even though like everything's telling you to stop or saying that you can't make it or can't do it? So how do you do that? To me it's like that somewhere you've made some decision that you're willing to go as far as you possibly can and then a little bit more. partially because, you know, I feel like I owe it to myself to go farther than I thought and dig deeper than I thought I could because I don't think I'll ever be as low. Even in that whole doc, I'll never be as low as I was in those last, like, couple years of sobriety. Just never. I don't care if I'm choosing to do this. Like, it's my, I want to do this. It may be terrible in that moment, but I got to remind myself that I can go further because, like, this is what I decided to do.

To me, what you did and the documentary that you made about that journey is a living, breathing document. It's the embodiment of this idea I believe in that we're all so much more capable than we allow ourselves to believe, and that our darkest moments and our depths of despair and our trauma are actually engines of change and transformation. Yeah. We can redo the documentary. You could narrative.

No, it's perfect as it is, dude. Yeah, it really illustrates, those are the themes, you know, that come across for me that these low moments are not things to be ashamed of. They're things to be leveraged. And the way that you do that is the way that you get sober one day at a time, one foot in front of the other. What's the next right thing to do? What's the contrary action to take? and cultivating this familiarity, this relationship with discomfort as a friend rather than something to avoid. Yeah, yeah, I mean, this, like, this choosing the uncomfortable thing to do when you know it's against your lower nature is, like, if I could say that to myself over and over, I think I'd still even be a better person.

And if you can choose to lean into that thing that's saying you really should do this, even though you don't want to. That's what I lacked for so long. And that's why I essentially hated myself and who I was and who I was going to be was just because of this. My first thought was to always go towards what's comfortable now, even if it was the most painful choice. That has to be the hardest thing that you've done. That distance? Yeah, that race in comparison to Western states.

Or are they all just some version of awful? Yeah, there are some version of awful. The Speed Project 340 was challenging, but it was like, it felt like I was, all the pain was spread out over like a few days instead of, like, Western States was challenging, really tough, like in its own right, because it was such a short period of time and you have like a thought of like when I want to finish this thing. Like I wanted to finish in 22 hours and I finished in 2455, which I'm still happy about. But it's like, boiling.

it down to like a day of movement and having like a time goal in mind is to me just made the speed project feel like a little easier in a sense. But it's all it's all like some version of crap. What is the difference? Like you're a marathon guy. You've done all these marathons. For a long time, you're like the guy who's always at every marathon. Now you're in the trail world. Like how do you put to words like the difference in those experiences and then secondarily like how do you change your training to train for these kinds of races versus marathons i guess i've never i never looked at it like differently like showing up and doing this i look at it the same because i'm still me wherever i'm going to go i just try to look at it the exact same and just share as i'm going along um

and just connect and in and bring the presence that i feel like maybe is lacking in the room and And like that might be mine, you know, and just making sure that I'm like truthful and honest and like whatever answers or whatever questions I get asked. There's this idea, like a marathon is long and it's super hard. But, you know, in 240, whether it's, you know, 246 or four and a half hours or six hours, it's going to be over, right? Like you're going to be on this trail for what is going to feel like a lifetime by comparison. Yeah.

To me, to be honest, like once I did the speed project, I think I kind of started on the deep end, you know yeah i really i enjoy like this yeah pyramids upside down yeah i feel like and then i'll be down to 50 miles but um i feel like i enjoy this this i enjoy this i enjoy this like low level of like consistent discomfort in negotiating with yourself like as in a marathon you do it is over much quicker and it seems like to me there's just less opportunity to make a choice to stop you know like during a 100 mile race or 100K, there's so many exit points. There's so many exit ramps where you could just be like, yeah, I'm done. And you're negotiating with yourself for hours and hours and hours.

You know, out of 24 hours, I probably wanted to, like, it's, I enjoy, but I enjoy, it feels like my life. 100 miles feels like 42 years of trying to figure it out, like as I go along. and trying to talk to myself the right way and not lean into every negative thought or thing that happens. And so like when you get to a finish line, it's like you re-arrive and have like shown yourself again that everything that just happened in that race

and everything that's happened so far in my life, all still can come together and be a success. And I just don't feel like in marathon, there's just so much faster and it's just kind of a, not a blink of an eye, but it is essentially just over much, it's just over faster. 24 hours, you're not running a marathon for 24 hours. Yeah. So it's like, it feels like very gratifying to do 100 mile or run through these different, you know,

races and see different scenes as you go through and views, you know what I mean? There's also the highs and lows that you experience the longer the distance. Like if you're running a marathon, like you're going to go and then you're either going to, maybe you're going to blow up. And like that's all she wrote. In an ultra, you can feel like it's over and then suddenly something shifts and then you feel good again. You know, like there's it ebbs and flows in a different kind of way. As you were sharing, I was thinking about Max Joliffe's recent performance at Badwater, which is just absolutely insane. Like, yeah, like bow, let's all bow down, you know, at that performance.

It's like when you look at his stats, I don't know if you saw them. Like he's running 730s and then he's running 8s. And you're like, okay, when's it going to drop down to the 12 minute? It just, he's at like 8s consistently the entire time. And I think it was, I don't know if it was mile 35, but like pretty early in the race, like he was like, this is not going well. And he was having gut issues and he thought it was all over. And then suddenly when he gets to the hills or what he has a second wind and like, you know, He just, he comes alive again.

Like there are these kind of mini deaths and rebirths that happen along the way that you're not going to experience in a marathon. And not for nothing. Like, you know, it's 130 degrees out. His body temp is like, he even has his body temp metrics and it goes up to like 101 degrees. Like he's essentially running a fever, you know? Yeah. And his heart rate never goes over like 138. Like it's just like that is a banana's performance.

Yeah, I text him after that and was like, hey, congrats, bro. How are you feeling? said that race took everything that I had. I can't imagine. And, you know, nobody has won that race without doing some version of a run walk method. And he never walked the entire way. Insane. He only stopped to like change his shoes or whatever. Like that is just like the next level. And that's what continues to convince me that, you know, this is such a new sport. And even when we see these outrageous breakthrough performances, like I think we're still at the beginning of seeing what's actually possible. And the longer the distance, the bigger than, the bigger than,

the delta between like, you know, who's winning now and who's going to be winning, you know, what we're going to see in five or ten years from now. Yeah. Like with the UT&B coming up, like, I'm really interested to see like what happens there. You know, it just seems like since I just started watching or looking into trail even, it's just like the, the like advancements in like the gains that have that have happened over like a year's time, which is really crazy. And it's just fun to watch.

It's fun to watch. So like these people are, including Max, like these people are ridiculous people. Yeah. Like this the guy who won Western, what he finished in sub 14 or something like that? Yeah, I mean, it's, it's. Yeah, sub 14. Three people finish. The pace at which people are running Western states now that are winning is just is off the rails.

And I was out there. I know it's not like, apparently it's not the hardest. You're 246 marathoner and it took you, you know, 24 plus hours to finish this thing. Some of the stuff that these people ran up at mile 90 something, it, like while I was running, I'm like, this is ridiculous. Like, I got my friend Earned out there. He'd never been out there. He'd never seen it.

He's like, I can't believe you're still moving. But yeah, these races are just, they're beautiful in their own, like, right. Like, if you're, if you are, like, interested in, like, these longer distances, it's a journey. Like, it's a, like you said, like, the highs and lows. The lows are long. And you have to, like, manage your way through those. And that's why I think I like it because I spent so much of my life kind of at this low energy, or not low energy, but like, low like state of mind that like it's kind of fun to to be there and still and have to like

negotiate through those because you know it's going to change and it's not life or death of it doesn't you know like you can you can stop if you need to and you know you can d and f that's and then one thing about trail that's really cool is like dnf is not like some big shameful thing like if you do if you don't finish a marathon the road scene is like more like like oh dang what happened like you you know if you don't if you dnf 100 mile it's like oh okay well next year you Yeah, I mean, sometimes it's just not going to happen. It just happens. But it's just been really fun.

And I'm going to run a marathon still. Like I'm actually going to be running Berlin. I'm not going to be racing it because I'm not like fit like that. But I'll be running it. And I'm always going to be around the marathon scene because it's just it's still so fun. It's still like that's where like my people are at. And that's where I feel like that's where I started at. But I definitely want to keep pushing into trail and like just see, I want to see where I can go.

Like, you know, helping, you know, increase visibility. is one thing, but then I also would love to see, like, what me, a couple years from now running 100Ks, 100 miles, like, I wonder what that looks like, finish time-wise. We left the training part dangling. Okay, training was- Was cool. Like, big shout out to my coach, Melissa Johnson-White. She's been, I got her before my first marathon in 2019. So she's been with me all these years through all these different races, back-to-back races,

TSP. So it's like she literally just ramped up the numbers. and change some of like the concepts of a workout. And a lot of it was much more instead of trying to hit this marathon pace for a 10-mile progression run, it's more about like, okay, you're going outside and you're going to be outside for four hours today. And just get outside and get moving. And the miles are much, obviously the weekly miles is crazy high. But at the same time.

Higher volume, lower intensity. Yeah, you're just out there. And we still did like workouts, like to turn over to make sure it's not boring. But she's done a really great job of like hearing what I wanted to do. believing that i that i would put in the work to do it and then and just give me a plan and like let me do my thing um so the training for it is just slower longer way more miles i think for for western states i think i was like a couple weeks over a hundred um but a lot of like just time outside and i enjoy just not necessarily having to go be obsessive over a pace for 16 weeks of

training. Similar to myself, your influence sort of crisscross's recovery with running. And that means that like me, you're also probably getting a lot of DMs from people, you know, with questions about these things. And one of the things that I've, that I'm curious about, that I've experienced is a fair amount of confusion that conflates these two things. Like, in other words, that the recovery is related to running in a way that misrepresents, like, what sobriety is. Like, oh, if I just start running, like, that's the solution to my addiction problem versus, like, what you and I both know, that it's anchored in, like, working this program. And that's something that's very different and takes priority over the running.

The running is a byproduct of putting in the work in the rooms of recovery and participating in sobriety. But I would imagine that you probably get, like, oh, like I'm struggling with this, but like I've quit drinking and now I'm running, but there's like no program there. Yeah. Like how do you respond to those people or try to be helpful for people who are either struggling with sobriety or sober curious and also running curious?

You know, it's sort of like, let's take care of the sobriety thing first. Like, and then we can get to the running part later. I think exactly that. Like I remind people that they wouldn't know who I am or they wouldn't be DMing me if it wasn't for sobriety period. I started running a year after. So a lot of times, like, people like to, like if you do it a podcast or an interview or something like that, they'll try to go, oh, you know, running to stay sober. And I like, I make them change it. Or running is how you got sober. Yeah, like, I make them change that because like I wouldn't, there wouldn't be any running

if I didn't get sober. And so I'll just try to like remind people while they're trying to figure their thing out. I remind them what is most important to me. And my, most important to me is sobriety because without that, I wouldn't be here. It's as simple as that. Like, I can't necessarily, I mean, I can say check out a meeting or whatever. But at the same time, like, I just want to make sure that whoever's talking to me understands, like, what I put as a priority. So that they can maybe look at that thing, okay, maybe I am using this as something that is unsustainable. Because what if you get hurt?

What if you don't like running after six months or whatever? That means you're back to drinking or back to whatever. So I just say, like, hey, priority is the sobriety. do that and everything else, and do that for yourself, not for anybody else, be sober for you, and then everybody else benefits from that. And the running thing, or for the cycle or whatever it is, that's all second or third or whatever, but never first. It's complementary, though. You know, it is putting the principles into action. Like, you have to take contrary action. You have to take things one day at a time. You know, it's an exercise in humility because you're never going to,

You're never going to beat the mountain and you're never going to beat yourself. And there's always going to be other people faster than you. And it's also an exercise in confronting yourself honestly. You know, like you can't participate in one of these races, especially the really long ones, or any race for that matter, really, and not have your denial upended. You know what I mean? Because you're going to meet yourself where you are in the truest version of yourself. And that's an opportunity for growth, like just like how can I move towards this thing that is uncomfortable? It's going to teach me something.

And failure is good because I can learn from that. And I can grow as a result of these experiences. So it's not that running is, you know, something totally detached from sobriety. And I think it's why so many people in recovery gravitate towards endurance sports because it is, it's almost like a spiritual practice on some level. Yeah, you just like you just have so much time. to work through these things, like in movement. But if you're some of these longer races, like you said, there's so many, you meet yourself, different versions of yourself,

so many different times in these races. If you want to finish and keep going, you do have to, like, have that conversation with yourself. I mean, you're out there sometimes by yourself for hours. Yeah. And you have plenty of opportunity to beat yourself up if you want and talk crap to yourself and or continue moving. Or like change that negative.

internal narrative. Yeah. And then, but then that lasts for 20 minutes sometimes. Like you, you feel like a high for 20 minutes and you're back to that low again because something reminds you of the thing that was bothering you before. Right. So it's, it's, it's therapeutic. I was going to say it's therapy, but it's therapeutic in a way just to, to know that you are, you've signed yourself up for a task that is going to require you to, to dig so deep, you know, continue at certain moments that when you finish, it just, it feels like you're a different person on the other side of these races if you allow it. Because you could go through and kind of, you know, only look at the highs and go like, okay, I'm great. But I also, it, that's pointless.

That's also like when people are sober and they're only just looking at the, the fancy stuff that they get to tell people how many, like how long it is sober. They are transformative experiences. Like each and every one of them is like its own hero's journey. 100% yeah and I'm just I'm grateful that like I'm grateful that started backwards and did the TSP thing first but I'm just like I'm so grateful to like to be out there like when I was when I was in at Western I planned on being done before the sun rose but like the one of the most beautiful moments of that race was after like coming to terms with like I wasn't having the day that I wanted to have around like 19 or 20 hours in that I was going to I was going to miss this goal of

the 22 hour thing I may maybe even the 24 hour the sub 24 hour the sub 24 for. Like once I like in motion, I was able to like keep moving forward, but then also like grapple with that disappointment potentially and rephrase and reframe like what life was at that second or that time got to this point where the sun rose that I didn't think I was going to see. And it was the most beautiful moment and like joyful moment over the race when I looked around and saw like this sun rising over the mountain. And that to me is like we all thought we were going to be somewhere different or somewhere better at this point. But if you stop thinking about like the future or the lack of the future that you thought you wanted and really stay like

exactly where you are, like be where your feet are and be in this moment, it's so many beautiful things like right in front of us. And we're experiencing so many things to be grateful for. Even in the midst of like the most terrible or tough moments of our lives, there's always something like right there that we can be eternally grateful for. And, you know, and you're And running to me shows me that in much more like physical sense. And then I get to go home and try to figure out like how what I learned from that moment. And then how can I actually like live that out in a day-to-day basis and maybe even like impart some wisdom like on my kids first. And then maybe other people have to.

Yeah. It's a very elaborate, extensive gratitude practice. But that opportunity to frame it, you know, having agency over how you, you know, decide whether this was a good or about. experience, whether or not it went your way or not. Like another example of that is Molly Seidel, who Olympic marathon, like the elite of the elite of the elite who like is like, okay, now I'm going into trail. And, you know, there isn't that much time or distance between when she was just like, you know, the world's best essentially. And things didn't go her way at Western States. She ends up finishing around the same time you do. I don't know exactly like in the same range, right? That could be

chalked up as like a failure or like, oh, turns out like the Olympic marathon. Like that doesn't translate on the trail. But it's actually a story of triumph because almost anybody else in her shoes would have pulled out. And she's like, I am finishing this thing. And it was just the most kind of courageous, you know, kind of statement that she could make and ends up being this inspirational story rather than like an example of failing. I mean, to me, it just shows, it shows me where, like where her ego lies and her ego is is more so on the like, I'm going to finish what I started thing as opposed to like an ego of what people are going to think of of this time. Because like you said, if somebody in her shoes pulling the plug and then just signing up for a different race,

you know, and just running as a professional. But I saw that in like huge hats off there because a lot of people that were elites and pro and pros dropped out that day. And no like shame in that. They made the decision that works for them. but she signed on. It was like, nope, I'm gonna, I'm finishing. And who cares what everybody else thinks? As long as she crossed that finish line and was proud of herself and felt like she.

Yeah, she was. So like it looked like a very cathartic experience for her. Yeah. And I love that. Like that's, I mean, because that's more realistic to all of us anyway. The perfect race day like happens for who? You know, like very rarely, even on the marathon side, you don't like strike a perfect race all the time.

Her having that moment and deciding to continue and push through and then share it and let it just be a thing and go on pods and talk about it, that's like, that's what we're doing is living life and trying to do it to the best of our ability in framing it or sharing it in a way that's like authentic, true and like potentially inspirational. Yeah. All right. I got a few lightning round questions for you. Okay.

Tommy. Rich. What are you running towards? and more importantly, what are you running away from? I'm running towards whatever's in the future. I'll leave it at that because I don't know what's out there. I'm running away from the person, the version of me that was scared of the future. And once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic.

You can hide in this world very easily and be sure. shrouded in praise and external validation for doing these races, you know, we all have things that we avoid and we can use any device to make people think that we're not avoiding them. So what is the next mountain that you have to climb, not running wise, but like personal growth wise or like spiritually or like in terms of, you know, your psychological well-being? Because the work is never done, right we know this um for just like my own personal like internal work is more for me it's about like for me it's about like loving myself you know enough to um align like my actual decisions on a day to day basis and or even like some of the things that i am aiming for or want to do or share with

the world or all of those things are based in like how much while I allow myself to be proud and love myself. Because some of this stuff, whether I want to sit here and be cool or not is based in validation in a sense. I would run these races, I think, without people saying it's cool, but at the same time, that's also part of the thing that's feeding my will to do more.

And somewhere under there is this, like, is this kid that's like not good enough. And I just want to make sure that like as I'm growing, that I'm actually like checking that version of me and bringing that like up to speed to like not just preach a story that's inspirational, but like live a life that like that I'm actually proud of that if everything went away. I'd still be really cool with it and I would still keep going forward.

Beautiful, man. I love that answer. All right, the rest of these are fun ones. That was the heavy one. That wasn't really a speed round question. Yeah, okay, thanks. I lied to you. What is the appropriate reaction when you wave at a fellow runner and they don't wave back?

The appropriate reaction of you're passing a runner, unless you're like in Central Park where there's like a thousand people running, you wave back. You wave or wave back or a nod or something. Like acknowledge each other. It's just human. It's a thing, you know?

If you see me and I wave at you and we've made eye contact and I saw that you saw me wave and you don't wave, I think that's just, that's just rude on all levels. What's just punishment for the person who doesn't wave back? Straight to jail.

So yeah, PR project. We do this thing. We're talking truth here. Run culture, court. Are there too many run clubs? Have we maxed out on run clubs? Nah, I don't say that. I don't think we've messed on a run clubs.

I feel like maybe we've maxed on some of the same type of run clubs, but I think that if you're into like Zelda and you've got a Zelda run club, great. If you're a trail guy or girl or whatever, you want to run, do a trail run club, do it. I think that we can't police people gathering for whatever reason they want to gather. Training with carbon-plated shoes. Hell yeah, or super cringe. Hell yeah.

Okay. Why? Why not? It's more fun. It's more fun. You run faster. Or just like, I mean, they're built for fast and speed, but they're also built in a way that like saves your legs. I mean, it may not be super healthy to always run in them.

I'm not sure. I'm not a scientist. I've heard people talk about different ways. But I think that like some of the long runs that I have, it's like, I'll bring out some super shoes and carbon plate of shoes and figure out how to get through this run and have a good day and put the miles in. And I see nothing wrong with it. I was in New York a little while back on did this podcast with Chris Chavez and Malcolm Gladwell. And before we started taping, Malcolm was just talking. He's like, I love, I love training and carving plate issues.

Because like, also when you're older, like, you know, you recover faster. Yeah. All right, good. You're on the record on that. Okay. What is a real runner? Somebody that runs. If you run, to me, if you run once a month or week, whatever, you're a runner.

If you have a practice, your movement practice is running, no matter how often you do it or how fast or slow you do it, you're a runner. Related question. Also related to the run club question, what do you make of the fashion explosion in running right now? Because I'm of two minds when it comes to this. I think it's cool. I'm excited about some, like, some, like, flare coming into the scene and some interesting brands that are trying to do things a little bit differently. It just makes it feel like more vibrant and fun. But it also could be something that a new, you know, quote unquote, real runner might find intimidating. Like,

it's a price of entry. Like if I don't, if I show up to my run club and I don't have the right socks or, you know, my kid is like, you know, not quite there. Like I don't feel, like, I feel insecure rather than like putting out a welcome mat where everybody feels comfortable showing up. To be honest, I don't think I've thought about it like that. That's interesting, and I feel like that's obviously happening somewhere. But I think it's all good. I feel like that's a person thing. If you pull up to a run club and they've created an atmosphere of being a super welcome

and making sure people feel like they belong there, I don't think it really matters what you have on. But if you've allowed yourself to be able to. like more high school and you've there's clicks in that thing and they make people inadvertently feel uncomfortable all the run clubs it can be that kind of like high school clickish sort of thing so i think there's a hierarchy and all that and that's just that just rely that's that the weight is on the shoulders of the run club leaders you know and and a lot of them know that and they work hard to make sure that that that doesn't happen um as often as it probably could if there wasn't somebody like

kind of policing that energy and that's just like that's why i was just why never would start a run club Like I don't want to be responsible for all these different things. And probably if I started a run club, nobody would pull up anyway. Yeah, it seems like it's starting to look more like what cycling has always been. Like cycling, like I remember the first time I wanted to buy a bike and I went into a bike shop. Like I was so intimidated. You know, it's like it's scary. And it's sort of like if you don't really know, you know, like you don't feel like you can even ask a question.

And there's these group rides and, you know, there's a certain sock height. and like you got it there are all kinds of like unwritten rules and yeah are your are your are your are your shades on the inside or the outside of the which one is right the outside outside okay yeah okay um yeah and it it's ridiculous right and i can see like running moving in that direction with all these clubs and that concerns me a little bit so while also appreciating that like you're taking your kit seriously in your presentation and there's a fashion thing to it and that makes it fun and interesting, albeit an expensive hobby. I think that partially like the coolness factor of it and like these new things,

I think that's also why we're seeing such a boom because it does look cool. And I think for certain communities, look, a cool factor is an invitation. You know, like when I first started running, I went into a store and I was asking for the right shoes and they handed me two pairs of shoes that I thought were just horrendous. And I'm like, all right, dang, I'm like, oh man, I left my wallet. it in the car because I'm too embarrassed to say that I didn't like them. So I just walked out the store and this didn't go back into the store and I like ordered some shoes online that I thought looked better. And I think that like some of the vibe for sure, if you can make something look cool, people will want to

want to like come to it sometimes. And yeah, that's an intrigue too. Like, oh, I can, I can, run for my health. I don't have to wear that super lame stuff that everyone else is wearing. I can wear this. Yeah. Like if I can get a fit off at the at the run club and I'm also healthy and meeting people that are doing the same thing, that's kind of cool. You know, like, that's, like, not just cool, but like, that's fun. And that's, like, that's positive. So I think it's just really just someone needs to police or watch like that, that, that thing that could make people not want to be there.

And if, and if that happens, that's also why there's other run clubs. Like, you come to a run club and you're like, this is really fun and great, but there's, like, 10 of us that just don't feel like this is our thing. Then that's why people have started other run clubs like down the street. Two more. This one is also related to the. question of what is a real runner. Are you following Wiz Khalifa's running for me? Because this is the best thing to happen to running in a long time. Like, I am so in love like with what that guy is doing

right now and the way that he's sharing it on social media. I think it's fantastic. Yeah. He's, the next guest has to be. I'm trying. Yeah. Yeah. Yes, that is true. I think you've done it like 10 times in a row now. Yeah, whatever I'm talking. He's, he's like, I'm like, I'm He's in there. His groove with this. I've been there, bro. I've seen the movie twice. Me too.

I think I'm going to try. I'm going to go for three. Nine hours of my life is a good investment. I think you should just, like, this is my thing. I just always use this. I always use this score for every real I make. Every time, like, all the videos that you mentioned, like are the ones that, like, I'm talking in.

And I don't normally talk directly to the camera as much as like I'm used to. I've always just been, like, running and using, like, just different music. But I feel like it's a funny, it's a funny, like, score to, like, me talking about something silly, like, growing a mustache or, or, like, like, do people want to see my toes? And you have this like epic, you know. Yeah. So it's like, I think I'm going to, I'll make, I'll make a video and I'm going to, I'm

going to tag you. Now I'll be talking about, you know, the fact that like I just sat down with you. Yeah, I'll use the score. Is that cool? Yeah. As long as I can like post a meme in response. Please. All right.

I'll allow that. All right. Cool. This is great, man. Super fun. I think we covered a lot. Wow. We've been going a long time.

You're amazing. I've got nothing but love for the journey that you're on, and I'm always behind your back, spit and wind in your sales, my friend. I appreciate that. You're a beautiful representation of being a real runner, and I think the mission you're on is beautiful as well, auditory. So thanks for sharing with me today. Thank you. If people want to connect with you, Instagram, obviously, you got your podcast. Where do you want to point people? Instagram Tommy runs on Instagram. I'm sure Tyga, but T-O-M-M-I-E-U-N-Z on Instagram. And then a big thing that, like, we're pushing a lot. You'll see there as well as PR project. That's me, Gary, and Aaron.

We sit down every other week and talk about all the things running, and then we do some fun stuff. But that's super important to me because it's like, it's an extension of me, but it's my friends. And we represent different cultures that aren't normally seen in that podcast world and communicating for and about brands and about running culture. So that's super important right now.

I think those are the two places to find it. It got a couple short and longer documentaries on YouTube. Check those out. And hit me up if you want a shirt too, because that's a statement that I want to continue to make. And hopefully it turns into a movement that means something. You can buy that on your website.

On website, Tommy runs.com. Yeah. And I appreciate this opportunity to be, to sit here with you talk and and do it in a way that like that just feels like the timing is right for it and i can't wait to see what's next so i'm just ask everybody to kind of tap in and as i announce things if you rock with me or you're you're liking where i'm going support in some way right on man excellent have a great time at utmb i will all right dude until next time peace please you say it still sweet no that just feels like the timing is right for it and i can't wait to see what's next so

I just ask everybody to kind of tap in as I announce things, if you rock with me or you're, if you're liking where I'm going, support in some way. Right on, man. Excellent. Have a great time at UTMB. I will. All right, dude. Until next time.

Peace. You say it still. You know.