The Rich Roll Podcast - From Fat Kid To Pro Cyclist: Phil Gaimon On Clean Sport, Racing On $10 A Day & The Worst Retirement Ever

Episode Date: September 18, 2017

Let's talk about doping. Throw cycling into the conversation and emotions are sure to run hot. It's an emotional subject for reasons both obvious and obscure. A flashpoint that divides loyalties, pitting our innate sense of fairness against our natural impulse to forgive. I have opinions on the matter. But my perspective is far from set in cement. Because I am aware that it's formed from the sidelines, as an observer of a very insular subculture beyond my direct experience, and to which I am not privy. Unless you were actually there — in the unfortunate and precarious position so many athletes across so many sports abruptly find themselves — my opinion is that we should not be so quick to judge. Everybody thinks they would make the right choice. I certainly do. But that's just projection. The truth is that you don't actually know what you would do. Connecting with this impulse helps me empathize with those who went astray. Is that a good thing? I honestly don't know. Phil Gaimon did make the right choice. A somewhat polarizing figure in the cycling community, today he tells the tale. Overcoming childhood obesity to achieve his dream of riding professionally, over the course of his professional cycling career Phil competed on several established domestic teams like Jelly Belly, Bissel and Optum-Kelly Benefit as well as high profile, international UCI teams like Garmin Sharp in 2014 and Cannondale–Drapac in 2016 before hanging up his bib shorts at the end of last year. Well, not exactly, but I'll get to that part in a minute. Along the way he has raced and trained with the best. Now he writes about his experiences, coming clean on what transpired behind cycling's shrouded curtain with wit and a healthy dose of comedic self-deprecation. He is the author of Pro Cycling On $10 A Day* and Ask a Pro*. His newest tome, Draft Animals: Living The Pro Cycling Dream (Once In A While) — an entertaining memoir about achieving his childhood dream of riding pro on the World Tour and what happened to him when he achieved it — hits bookstores October 10, 2017. When he's not writing books, Phil is an active blogger and contributor to various cycling publications like Velo News. He also hosts The Peloton Brief Podcast and is the founder of Phil’s Cookie Fondo – a series of cycling adventures between 32 and 113 miles taking place October 15 that showcases Malibu’s great climbs (and apparently involves a lot of cookies). Back to the bib shorts. He didn't exactly hang them up. In fact, Phil has spent the better part of the last year pursuing what he calls The Worst Retirement Ever — an endeavor in which he is attempting to clock the fastest-ever...

Everyone's a cyclist before they're an athlete. Everyone just starts to ride bikes for fun. So for me, I just liked going out and exploring. Riding a bike, you see the world at this pace that when you're driving, you miss it. You know, you don't smell it. You don't, you know, you're not, you don't see what's going on when you're running. Like you can see it, but you don't cover a lot of ground. But when you're riding, you can really soak up a lot in a day. You can really feel what's going on and, and you can stop for, you know, pick up an apple or something. And so that was what I got out of it. And I found like, if you're training and you're staring at your power meter and you're doing your workout and

your coach and all this stuff, like at some point it can start to feel like work if you're not careful. And so once in a while, like think about what got you into it and carve that out for yourself. Just today, go out and do what you feel like. Just go for a ride. It reinvigorates everything. And, and at some point like that, I definitely like extended my training and it made life a lot easier. And at some point, that's all I'm going to do. That's Phil Gaiman this week on the Rich Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey, everybody. How are you guys doing? What's happening? How are you? My name is Rich Roll. This is my podcast. Welcome to it, the show where each week I go deep, I get intimate, I go down the rabbit hole with all manner of movers and shakers and inspiring people and wise personalities across a wide spectrum of all as a means to help you and me, of

course, as well, just become a little bit better, a little more self-actualized. The idea, of course, is to help all of us unlock and unleash our best, most authentic self. I know that sounds a little bit pithy and trite, but it's kind of a cool aspiration. So come on, you guys, just go with it. Today, I sit down with former American professional road racing cyclist, Phil Gaiman. So who is Phil? Phil is a former American professional cyclist. Didn't I just say that? Phil has competed on several teams across the course of his career, domestic teams like Jelly Belly, Bissell, Optum Kelly Benefit, as well as international UCI teams, the big teams like Garmin Sharp, which he raced with in 2014, and more recently, Cannondale-Drapac in 2016 before he retired at

the end of this year. Phil is also an author. He's written a couple books, Pro Cycling on $10 a day, very entertaining read, Ask a Pro, and he's got a brand new book. It's called Draft Animals, Living the Pro Cycling Dream Once in a While, parenthetical once in a while. That book comes out October 10th, and it's available for pre-order now. Check it out. We recorded this podcast quite some time ago, several months ago, and it's available for pre-order now. Check it out. We recorded this podcast quite some time ago, several months ago, and I apologize for the delay to all you Phil fans out there in getting this out to you guys in a more timely fashion. I just had a backlog and all kinds of other stuff, as you may or may not know, that has been occupying my time. But in the meantime, Phil sent me an advanced copy of this new book.

And although I've only begun to check it out and get into it, it's really fun and entertaining look behind the scenes on what it's really like to ride pro on the world tour at cycling's highest level. It's about Phil's childhood dream and what happened to him when he actually achieved it. All are which subjects that we explore at length today. Phil is also an active blogger who occasionally writes for Velo News and other cycling publications. He hosts his own podcast, the Peloton Brief podcast. And he is the founder of Phil's Cookie Fondo, which is a 100-mile, I think it's 100 miles, cycling adventure that shows off Malibu's great climbs, climbs I know well, and apparently involves gourmet cookies. It takes place on October 15th,

and you can check it out and sign up at philsfondo, F-O-N-D-O dot com. In any event, Phil has spent the better part of the last year pursuing this campaign that he calls the worst retirement ever, in which he is systematically going after and collecting Strava KOMs, which for people that aren't on Strava or don't really know what it is, it's basically attempting to clock the fastest ever recorded times on every prestigious climbing hill incline that he can find, both domestic and abroad, all the famous climbs. And this was inspired due to him becoming upset that a bunch of previously banned riders held so many of these KOMs, King of the Mountain honors,

and he was inspired to reclaim them for the sake of clean sport. And that's a challenge that he has been documenting as a cool series of fun videos on YouTube. I'll put a link up to the show notes. Uh, so you can check that out as well. All right, let's talk about Phil. Let's talk about the conversation that we had. It was really cool. It was really fun. We covered a ton of ground. We talk about his childhood growing up obese, if you can believe that. How do you go from obese to professional cyclist? It's a crazy story. It's about how he first started riding bikes to lose weight and the career that followed. And then we go behind the scenes on the insular, mysterious world of pro cycling, all the misconceptions of what being a pro rider actually means,

what it's like, the true lack of glamour that is involved. And that's all covered in his book, Pro Cycling on $10 a Day book. We also cover cycling's sordid history with doping, Phil's refusals to use throughout his career despite being surrounded by this culture, and what it means to him to be clean and to stay clean within that culture. We talk about his Strava mission to scrub all of these Strava records to clean them up and erase these band riders from the record boards. But at its core, this is really a conversation that demystifies one of the world's most unique professional sports through the eyes of somebody who actually lived through it. And I will say that talking about doping and cycling is really tricky. It's very difficult.

It's a very emotional subject for a lot of people for a lot of reasons, both obvious and obscure. And of course, I have opinions on it, but I'm also very connected with the fact that my opinions, these opinions are formed from the sidelines. I'm not a professional cyclist. I never was. And personally, I think that unless you were actually there, unless you were in the position that these athletes found themselves, continue to find themselves, that we need to perhaps not be so quick to judge. Because we all like to think that we would make the right choice, but that's theory. That is projection. So, it was really great to explore this hot button with somebody who was actually there, who actually walked through it, rode his bike through it, lived through it. Plus, he's super funny. It was a really entertaining talk, like I said. So,

let's not waste any time. Let's talk to Phil. Let's do it. All right. Good to see you, Phil. Thanks, Rich. let's do it all right good to see you phil thanks rich thanks for uh thanks for coming out i'm super stoked to talk to you you're a super interesting guy and excited to uh delve into the world of professional cycling and probe your experience and and uh everything that uh everything that you've done and that you're doing now uh Uh, I, I kind of see you like you're, you're a pretty interesting dude for a lot of reasons, but, um, I think some of them have to do well, first of all, like your experience in pro cycling is interesting to me because, because, uh, you share it so much, you're a writer, you know, and you have a very kind of

comedic flair with your writing and how you kind of share your experience and what it was like to be part of that world. And I'm fascinated by, you know, the subculture of professional cycling. And I think, you know, we hear a lot from the top pros, you know, the superstars that, you know, the names that you always hear about. But you're kind of a guy who is a journeyman kind of yeoman dude, right? Like that you were on a lot of different teams, you know, racing with a lot of different guys. And I think for the average human being, if you tell them I'm a professional cyclist, they're just immediately think like you're racing the tour to France every year. Right? Yeah. Yeah. I was very much on the fringe of all that. racing the Tour de France every year, right? Yeah. Yeah. I was very much on the fringe of all that. Right. So maybe, uh, I think it would be worth kind of just, uh, hearing a little bit

about your career and your perspective on the sport. Sure. Um, I kind of got a late start, I guess that would be, that'd be like my first setback or my first, uh, hurdle. Um, so I started racing in college, kind of like mostly started riding to lose weight racing in college just as a part of a club thing um had you been an athlete before that like in high school i was the fat goalie in youth soccer so no really you were not fat i was i was exactly obese at like age 12 like 30 body fat which like isn't that but it was, it was going to go one direction or the other. And, and I was kind of like, I did something about it before, before it got too late. Wow. I saw it. So you grew up in the, you grew up in like Georgia, right? Yeah. Atlanta.

Yeah. And so what, just eating Cheetos as a kid or like Coca-Cola? The city of Atlanta is owned by Coca-Cola. So there's like vending machine in high school. the city of atlanta is owned by coca-cola so there's like vending machine in high school you like pick up a bottle before between classes and then suddenly you've got the the beatus uh was was a lot of people's experience but uh-huh um yeah so i don't want to be a fat kid yeah i looked out at the mirror at some point i looked down i was like there's this big roll of fat and i was like i don't want to go through life like that uh-huh um so like the as as like a child would before i had any concept of like health or fitness i kind of just like ate one meal a day and rode my bike a lot and at 16 i guess i could survive that right um i mean just for perspective right now you're like

how tall are you i'm six 6'1", like 150 pounds. Now I'm like gross skinny. It's the other way. I'm still gross with my shirt off, but it's not because I'm fat. The teenage boy professional cycling look. Right. Yeah. So that was kind of how I got started was just to lose weight.

And then I go to college. I went to University of Florida. And there was, I didn't know anybody, you know, new state, new school. And I joined the cycling club just to make friends. I was like, I like riding bikes. I just lost a bunch of weight. And ride with them all winter. And then their whole thing is racing, collegiate racing scene.

And I jumped into that and I won my first races. And I was like, oh, this is a thing. How long before you won your first race? It was my first race. You won your very first race. Yeah. So there's like lower categories and stuff. And so here's like a bunch of people who the lower categories are kind of meant for people who work or whatever, who are just starting out.

And here's a guy who's like been training full time for six months. I'm in college. So it's plenty of time. And I just I loved it so much. I just did all the training. And basically I was training like a pro because I had time and I just kind of shot through the ranks and, and it was, it, it captivated me and, and it kidnapped me, I guess is a better term for the next decade. Was there a moment where you realized like, Hey man, like I could be like, I might be good enough

to, to go all the way with this. I was always kind of a one step at a time person. Kind of like when the first category is category five, I was like, like you know i think i could be a cat four and then i do that and then and then each time the first time i kind of thought i could be a pro would be like my my third year racing i sort of just fallen now and now i'm like doing races against pros i'm an amateur and uh there's this one race called Univest in Pennsylvania that all the European like development teams come over for. And my team was sort of lucky to be invited. And, and somehow like I just held onto the front guys and finished debatably fourth or seventh, depending on how bad they screwed up the results was one of those. That's kind of like a breaking away moment, right? Like, Oh, the Europeans are.

Yeah, sort of, sort of. Um, and was eventually, in a different way, a pump in my spokes. And the results were all messed up. So I still don't know how I finished. I know I was either fourth or seventh. And there's a debate, and I don't care. But either way, it was kind of like, oh, you can hang with these guys thing. And I was 21. Right.

And riding in Gainesville, I mean, that's pretty flat, right? Dead flat. Yeah, so riding in Gainesville, I mean, that's pretty flat, right? So dead flat. Yeah. So not a lot of climbing experience, like a lot of crits and stuff like that. Yeah, exactly. I didn't, I didn't know I was a climber until like my second year racing. I didn't know there was a thing like a big ring, right? I didn't know there was a little ring to climb in. Um, I thought I was like a time trial list and I was kind of good. And then, uh, we, we got up to like, I travel a little bit and I was like, oh, that's my thing. Okay. Mountains. Right. Interesting. So how does it work? Like when

you show promise or prowess as a young person in the sport, like does the sort of national organization reach out to you and develop you? Or like, what is the process of sort of cultivating or grooming somebody who's in your position to then take it to the next level? Um, in, in my position, I think it was, it was all kind of like self cultivated that there is now it's a lot better than there were kind of development teams, but I was a little bit on the older side, a little bit on the later side. Um, so there's like, there was a national program, but they're kind of like, Oh, you're, you're 20. And everybody here has been national champions as they were 12.

So I kind of had no luck there. So I got on some good kind of amateur development teams. But now there's more of a program. There's a few kind of professional teams that look for the young talent and find them. The time that I started, I didn't really know. The time that I started, I didn't really know. It was kind of the post-EPO bubble. Right.

Where there's all these scandals and just the money was kind of running away from the sport. So there's a lot of teams in general. Right. So you're kind of stepping into this world, right, as it's kind of beginning to crumble around you. Yeah, exactly. The way I explain it is like I'm climbing up a ladder and it's like being chopped from underneath me and it's falling down. That's how it was looking back. at the time. You're just like, you know, shoving coal in the engine and going for it. Uh-huh. And so what was the first pro team that you wrote for?

Um, so I, I got on a pro team my second year and then that one kind of went away. When you were second year in college? Second year racing. Yes. And also second year in college. I was a sophomore. You're in college and you're racing professionally. Yeah. But professional cycling is kind of like it's it's a it's it wasn't it's not full-time and you're not really getting paid uh for the most part at that level like kind of the minor league sort of level the american stuff so explain like the tiers of teams that exist because there's the you know you hear about all that you see the teams racing at the tour de france and you just

sort of think well those are the teams and and that's pretty much true. But there's a whole other world of cycling. It's like the NBA where like there's the NBA and then, but you can also play professionally in Europe. So I would say like, and sometimes the best guys in Europe come over to the US, but it's not really like a minor leagues parallel exactly, but it sort of happens that way. So there's this whole world of racing in the U S on these, it's called continental teams. It's kind of the lower tier. Um, and, and once in a while, the best guy from there gets to go to the big leagues in Europe, which I eventually ended up there, but I sort of floundered in the, the American stuff, um, for, for many years of my career. And then at 27 was

I signed a contract to technically that was when I was like a real pro for the first time. So I was on a pro team, but it doesn't, it's not right. And what team was that? Uh, that was Garmin sharp. Right. So that was what you're 2014, 2014. Yeah. I mean, that's a big, that's one of the big teams. Yeah. Like that's a big league, right. But there's all these other, you were on, like, there's all these other teams like Jelly Belly and Kelly Benefits and Bissell. And, you know, like it's a bizarre world because the sponsors are like, okay, they make vacuums and these people make, you know, basically jelly beans.

It's like this bizarre mishmash of weird companies that, you know, take a flyer and decide they're going to back these cycling teams. It's kind of a weird business model. Yeah. And that's like a big part of the problem, I think, because there's not working out, right? Yeah. I mean, in some cases it does. And I think for the most part, like in Europe, it's the industry sponsors are kind of floating it now. So when it was, when it was big, when, you know, when Lance was hosting SNL, corporate sponsors wanted in and, and now it's kind of like Canada has a team, Trek has a team and you sort of have to go that route and the money's there. It's just not, it's not quite what it was. It's not, it's not huge.

In the U S it's a lot more passion i think so there's mark bissell is a cycling fan so he was sort of looking for a way to sponsor cycling and and if it's and eventually that when i was on that team they were kind of like my my understanding was this board directors was like look can we stop sinking all this money into cycling every year because it's not nobody we're not selling vacuums here yeah like who's going to go out and buy their abyssal vacuum because they like this cyclist on this team plus it's a huge risk because if a couple guys get busted for epo then it just works across purposes with the whole intention right so you're asking them to you know sort of trust you on faith that that's not going to happen and i think when that all started to kind of crater, uh,

with all the scandals that all those sponsors kind of went running for the hinterlands. That's, I think that's exactly true. That's, that's like, that was sort of when I entered professional cycling was when all of them were seeing, like there was a, there was a team called Festina and I forget which tour de France this was, but they were caught with all of the drugs. Right. And that's called the Festina scandal and poor festina is just trying to sell watches stuck in the middle of that and they're just like we didn't we didn't give them the vo we're just trying to sell watches and forever it's the festina scandal that's the name of it so they're associated with this black mark yeah it officially cost them on their reputation i didn't even know that festina

made watches they only make scandals yeah so when you're on garmin sharp though are you thinking like i'm moving up like i'm i'm headed to the tour de france or did you have like a sense of your ultimate potential where you or or did you kind of think like i'm hanging on you know i'm hanging on for dear life here um i think i think it was a little bit of both i think like every like every athlete you can fool yourself, you know, you can think like, oh, it's only going up from here and, and whatever. And I think at that point, like, I mean, I had risen to that. I'd had like a very steady growth and every year I was getting better. Um, and I hadn't really been exposed to the top of the top. Um, and then I,

and I went there and I got lucky and I won my first race on Garmin Sharp, which was, which was amazing. I was like, oh, here we go. It's just going to be, I'm just going to go all the way up there. I'll do the tour. Um, and then at some point, like reality punches you in the face and you sort of start training with the best guys in the world. You do some races and it's like, oh, and then, and then from there you kind of have to backtrack

and say, all right, is it still worth it if I can't be the best? And what is my place in the sport? And what's my role? Right. And during that period of time, I mean, I would assume like when you're riding for Garmin, you're getting paid all right, right? I was getting exactly all right. Yeah. So there's like the league minimum basically is $50,000.

So that was my salary. That's what you get if you're 27 and barely good enough to be in there. Right. But on these continental teams, like, you know, it disabused me of the romantic notion of what it's like to be a professional cyclist. I mean, you wrote a whole book on this, like professionals be a pro cyclist on $10 a day. Yeah, exactly. So my first pro contract. You're at the poverty level like yeah training all day and

eating beans and rice or whatever yeah that's that's that's kind of that world it's like you have to find a way to support yourself and that was sort of the first so my salary um so the first year i got on a pro team in college it was uh i got eight thousand dollars and that was great because i was still in school and didn't really deserve anything and then that team went away and i was amateur for two years so no pay pay. They give you two bikes and some clothes and good luck with yourself. And I'm driving across the country back and forth to get to any big race I can. And then I- On your own dime. Yeah. Do they reimburse you for your travel to races and stuff?

No, man. I made some prize money they're like hundred dollars for one of the next lap and i'm getting it yeah i mean it's it's a weird thing like i i see this with pro triathlon too like there's so many ironmans now and it it takes so much to train to to perform at the highest level in ironman there's only so many ironmans you can do a year and unless you're you're winning big races like you're barely scratching by and all of these races are in exotic venues that you have to get on a plane and travel to. Like, I don't know how the numbers work. Like, I don't know how they do it. I mean, that's a big piece of the puzzle. I can't speak to triathletes, but, but for me, it was kind of like jelly belly. My salary was $2, thousand dollars i did well that year and i got on

a better team and my salary unlimited jelly beans oh so many jelly beans i'm not even gonna yeah it was like 90 pounds every couple months as many jelly beans as you want like you should be happy that's that's been like a sustained sponsor of the sport is i think like they give out these little sample packs i'd get 90 pounds every couple months of just these like tiny little 100 calorie things and then you have to give them away and it's fun to give them away. And then, uh, and everybody's happy that that sponsor has been the longest running in the U S um, I guess easier to sell jelly beans than, than, uh, vacuum cleaners, but this will still involve just not like at the title level. Right. Um, but, but yeah, for me it was kind of like so it's two thousand dollars on jelly belly next year i got 15 next year i got 20 then my salary was right my contract was for 20 but the team folded halfway through so i got like 13 and and then no paychecks last like five months it's so glamorous yeah you're selling your bikes at the end of the year you're

i mean i ended up like working side jobs i had like a little company on the side. I was selling like cycling clothing online. Does everybody have to have like a side hustle? Basically, yeah. A lot of guys coach. That's a big thing. But I mean, I had teammates who'd work construction in the off season. It's just like anything. It's a whole range. A lot of students, a lot of people like pecking away at PhDs or something. It's almost like that was how, like in Europe, that's the birth of the sport, right? It was very much like a blue collar occupation. Like these guys were like chimney sweeps and stuff that would raise the Tour de France. And the original Tour

de France, like there's no drafting, there's no teams. And like, if you, if your bike breaks, like you're welding that thing back together, that's part of the rules so yeah hopefully hopefully our sport kind of evolves more to that but i'll be long gone by then and our people the other weird thing is that is that you would have met like the average person probably thinks that you're out riding with teammates all the time and it's like very much a team sport on a daily basis but you live wherever you want you do all basically your the training's on you right like you're you're, you're, you're responsible for your own training. And most of that is like by yourself or just whatever, with whatever buddies you happen to, you know, live around you. Right. And you only get together as a team for races or training camps like a couple of times

a year. Yeah. That's, that's pretty much true. And in Europe, like a lot of the pros kind of pocket in like one of four cities so luca italy monica and gerona so if you're on garmin sharp like that almost come that contract almost comes an apartment in gerona and everybody ends up over there so canondale now uh so you end up training with what is it about gerona that everyone goes there well originally it was because they they passed so like all the u.s postal guys the the lance crew um were were in we're living in france and then france passed laws that it was now criminal to to dope so they're all like oh so they went to spain and like gerona it's a beautiful city the roads are it's this medieval town and there's like really nice roads um but

originally like that was that was the source of that was when they migrated there and kind of established like Girona became the the base for english-speaking pro cyclists and it snowballed from there um and the the EPO factory shut down but the uh you know the castles and the Mediterranean and the crepes are still still going hot right interesting so well let's talk about clean sport i mean you got a tattoo right you have a clean let me see that yep show it to me oh that's cool so it's like a it's like the fight club soap bar yeah yeah yeah it's that it says clean on it that's interesting so um you know tell me about tell me about, tell me about, you know, doping culture from your perspective, like what you saw, what you experienced and, you know, the current state of what's going on. Right. The, I, fortunately, like I didn't see much.

Like I said, I came into it kind of at the tail end of it. There was, it was, I think when I started, it was still bad in Europe, but there was starting to be a fallout. There were starting to be teams that marketed themselves as clean and that kind of meant it. Well, Garmin was founded on that principle, right? With Voters and trying to clean everything up. And then they had a few sort of bumps in the road, I think, right? Yeah, it's not easy. Yeah.

But so kind of when I started, it was, uh, it was, it was the tail end of that. And, and I didn't really realize like once a year, somebody I raced with would go positive and, and you'd be like, oh man, like, and would you be surprised or like, what is the, the sort of, um, you know, you hear a lot about like the sort of esprit de corps, like what, you know, people kind of like, if you're in the Peloton, you kind of know who's doing what, right. Nobody's saying anything. And yeah, I think there was a point where, where man, I'm 19 and like, I just, I missed, I was completely in all of that. And, but then you sort of figure it out. You're, you experience a few, like you're, I was, I was in this race in the Bahamas once and this like one kind of like older guy who was just this older amateur. Like he attacked the breakaway. There's six guys left and this guy goes and he's like out of sight immediately at twice our speed.

And I'm like, I've never seen that before. And and then he tests positive for human growth hormone six. I'm like, OK, that's what a doper looks like. That's how I figured that out. But yeah, so kind of when I understood it, when you realize like the extent of the doping, what was going on in Europe and what my sport sort of had become, I was too deep in it to want to stop. Like I loved it. And I was kind of like committed as far as what I was doing with my athletic career. And that was when I got the tattoo. I was kind of like committed as far as what I was doing with my athletic career. And that was when I got the tattoo.

I was real pissed. But you didn't, it wasn't like part of the culture that you kind of read about from the Lance era where you're seeing it or you know that certain teams are doing it. And you kind of entered a little bit later. Yeah, not in the U.S. That was going on somewhere but but in the u.s like the teams i was on the age that i came up in like those guys wouldn't see it we just kind of had the tail end of it so a couple of the older guys a lot of times what would happen is like the older riders in in europe if they couldn't get a contract for whatever

suspicions or something they'd come race in the u.s on on in that whole league so we'd have like the francisco mancebo would be one where like he was he was probably one of the guys in the the whole all the scandals and the blood bags and all this stuff and nobody wants to sign him so he ends up like just killing a bunch of like 23 year old american kids for five years and he's making six figures and we're like how do you beat this guy right so uh so when you look at the sport now i mean do you have a sense of how clean it is or or work that still needs to be done like do you think that the protocols that are in place right now are sufficient and can you say with confidence that that people are racing clean or like how do you

kind of think about it i think it it's, it's gotten way better. Um, and like, you don't know until you're there and I got there. Right. So like I was racing at that level and I was like, I won one race, but a lot of times, like I could be in the pack and I'm doing my job and there's guys that are better than me. There's guys that are worse than me. And like, if I went to the front on a climb, I could make it. So there's 20 guys left. Like I was capable of that. So how dirty could it be? Um um and that's really the only way you know is when you can feel it just when a guy like rides away from everyone yeah and then but then there were a few there's still some of that there's still some guys who were kind of involved in that other

era and kind of slipped away and and either like they're still up to some gray area stuff. Like they're the, the, the governing bodies could never do enough. You know, like you can't, you can never stay ahead of the curve. It's, it's like anything else. It's like wall street. Like the guy who, the guy who graduated from, from Stanford or Harvard is, is working on wall street. And the guy who's regulated him went to university of Florida. So he's never, it's never going to work. Yeah. it's interesting. I had a guy on the podcast a couple of years ago who was a hedge fund trader. And he ended up getting involved in some insider trading.

And then what started off is it was so – the way he walked through that moment where he made his first sort of insider trade. Right trade and the kind of ethical conundrum it put him in. But then once he did it and it was okay and then it became easier. And before he knew it, he's handing brown bags of cash to strange people on street corners. And it just got easier and easier. And he got into it because he was just trying to keep up with the culture. It was going on all around him and it was normalized. That sounds exactly like doping. Yeah.

And then one day he gets a tap on the shoulder from a guy in aviator shades and says, get in the back of the suburban. And then he ends up becoming like this prolific FBI informant. And his information was responsible for toppling a lot of the top guys in the world. And I had a chance to talk to him and he told me the whole thing is like this epic two hour story. And it was right after he had been sentenced and his whole life had fallen apart. He was a felon. He was going to avoid jail time, but you know, his world had crumbled around him, but I had so much empathy for him because I could, I was trying to walk a mile in his shoes. And I'd like to say, if I was him, I wouldn't

have done that. But you know, I don't know that, you know what I mean? I wasn't part of that culture. And so I'm very reticent to pass judgment on anybody who crossed that line in cycling. Like it's so analogous. Like I wasn't there. I wasn't part of that. I would like to think that I wouldn't make that choice. Um, but when you're surrounded by an entire community of people that are doing it, you know, it becomes trickier to levy like hardcore judgment on people that made that choice that are just trying to hang onto their job so that they can continue to do the thing that they love right now but it sounds like you never were kind of presented with that moment right there was no moment where it became a tempting thing for you no no one ever like handed me a needle and i had to be like no man that's not my thing

like i'm not but but that was part of the but that's encouraging that you weren't presented with that or or like they would have but i had a tattoo and they knew it wouldn't go well right that could be the but i don't i don't think so i really don't believe that i think i think it's significantly cleaner um and and to speak to what you're saying like i know i know a lot of dopers and a lot of my friends like and and you're exactly right like there's some who there's some who you sit in a room with and you're kind of like, or you hear stories like that guy's bloodthirsty. That's like a dark human being who, who, who tried, who wanted to dope, who needed this, who like made the effort. And then there's another one who like that guy was in the wrong place at

the wrong time at 19 and, and he never had a shot and you kind of do have the empathy. And yeah, it was a qualitative difference between those two archetypes. Right. And, and part of the reason I got the tattoo is kind of like, if it is like that, you know, and if you can empathize and understand, it's kind of like, I want to look at this and remember who I am. Right. It holds you accountable. If I am faced with that decision.

Yeah. So the deal was like a bunch of guys got the same tattoo or similar ones, different versions. And it was like, if you ever dope, we're scraping it off you. That was our little like pinky swear to each other right um so accountability so you're you're racing for garmin in 2014 and did you go to you were lit you were in gerona you're doing the whole deal and all of that and then but that was like a only a one-year deal right yeah so that was a different team after that exactly so that was they that's the thing that sort of the whole time I was kind of facing this like shrinking sport so as I'm getting better and the ladder's getting chopped down um I I did well

that year I'll I'll I'll be honest with myself um and I'm usually not easy on myself, but I was, I was good. And then a couple of teams folded and Garmin sharp merged with this Italian team called Cannondale. It wasn't exactly a merger that kind of just ate them. And, uh, but it was a bloodbath as far as the rosters of two teams coming together. So I went, went back to the U S went back to the minor leagues basically for a year, uh, this team called Optum and um was good enough there jumped back over to Cannondale the year after they're like all right Phil we'll have you back um and then then that year I wasn't so good and at the end of that I kind of retired that was sort of like um this is all I got I emptied my my tank so you didn't I mean you could have continued to race I mean you were still you were performing at a pretty high level still yeah yeah but when

i guess part of the thing for me was like i once i knew that my my upward trajectory was gone i didn't have the energy to to claw my way back to europe again um i didn't i didn't have the energy to like get paid nothing again and kind of just go through that whole cycle right and i was sort of like it it took everything i had to get there was was what i kind of realized go through that whole cycle. And I was sort of like, it, it took everything I had to get there was, was what I kind of realized. Um, I had some personal stuff that like my dad died the year before it kind of just knocked me out. Um, so there was, there was a lot of just in, in my head, I was sort of ready to move on at that point. Right. And at that point, did you like, when did you, when did you write a pro cycling on $10 a day? That was a couple of years ago, right?

So that one, I wrote that when I was still on Bissell. So the thing is like when you're on an American team, like the plus side of you're not getting paid much is you basically, I think we only race like 40 days a year. So you're training hard, you're training full time, but you can start a business or write a book in your spare time. Like you can experiment and play with stuff. So that was kind of what I did

is I wrote that in your spare time. Like you can experiment and play with stuff. Um, so that was kind of what I did is I, I wrote that in the off season and, um, and had you already been like blogging for Velo news or whatever you were, your, your writing is all over the internet in the cycling community. So did you, like, when did you realize like, Oh, I have a voice, like, you know, I have, I have something to say about this and, and, and the desire to kind of like share your perspective. Right. I mean, I've, I've definitely always had a mouth as far as a voice. Um, so I went to school, I finished at an English degree, minor in journalism. So I guess that was always in me. I was just like telling stories and, and kind of like driving, trying to have a point of view. Um, and so when I finished college and my parents weren't super stoked on me being a full-time

bike racer for $2,000 a year. So I was kind of like, oh, I'm going to freelance, right? I'm going to do that. So I, I, I got, that was your side hustle, right? So that was bicycling magazine was like my first writing gig. So it was once a week, I write a little blog about being a sad amateur. And then that moved to Velo news. And then at some point I kind of collected all

that. I was like, oh, I have 200,000 words. I could cut that out and kind of make a book out of it. Yeah. So, Pro Cyclone $10 a day was kind of that story of coming up from college and it ends with me signing to Garmin Sharp, which is so funny. And you write an autobiography at 28. and sharp which is which is so funny and you write an autobiography at 28 it's like i i laugh at like the ego of myself at that point i was like oh it's gonna be smooth sailing from here like it's you know i i made it and then you get there and it's like you're living in a crappy apartment in gerona and you're getting your butt kicked in belgium and and it was far from from easy street but belgium sounds belgium sounds miserable like it's just like the weather's bad right like it's cold and then you go to these one-day races where it's freezing out yeah there's

definitely a lot of points in like the the glamorous life of a pro cyclist is you're like you're in a you're in a rented bus because like the big bus is at the big race and if you're even on the best team in the world there's like you know a know, A races, B races. And I'm at a C race in Belgium in like a weekend rental bus. And you're just like looking out the window. And it's like, I'm one of the best in the world at this thing. And it's just dumping rain. It's like, yeah, I got to go out there for a day. It's like you're just covering like your legs with lotions and hot creams.

Yeah, that's. Yeah. I don't know, man. You got to love it. You know, you got to I don't know, man. You got to love it, you know? You got to be doing it for the love. Well, what's interesting about a lot of the pro cyclists is once they retire, they still go out and like ride every day. Like they still love the bike. Like I know a lot of swimmers who when they retire, they're like, I'm done, man.

Like I'm not going into the pool. Like I'm staying dry. I'm not getting wet at all. They just want nothing to do with it. But so many cyclists, you know, obviously they're doing it for the love because they just keep, they just keep riding like every day. Like they're still pros. Right. No, I don't, I don't know how I could quit. It's, it's weird. But, uh, yeah, from, from when I i stopped racing i'm probably riding about half as much i'm riding 12 hours a week instead of 25 or 30 but uh i think i'd lose my mind real quick if i if i quit i think i yeah it's it's like i took a month off and sort of that was when i realized i had to retire this was like last fall and then i came back and just went on like a

strata spree right and we're gonna we're gonna talk about that but it's it's it's definitely like a lifestyle i don't know how i'd have it's it'd be surprising i've ever stopped riding yeah well that's that's beautiful you know because your heart's in the right place with it you're doing it for the right reason or i'm an addict and yeah maybe that yeah that could be it too right when you were on bisll, was that during the time when Tom Zirbel got busted? Or was that a year after? That was a year before. I was teammates with Tom Zirbel on Optum in 2015. I mean, there was a moment where he was going to be the next big thing.

Yeah. Right? Absolutely. He earned it. And he trained. And then he kind of had one of those things. And this is the problem with the sport. And you know and and we know the guys who got away with it like we literally like you know them you know exactly who they are it's very easy

that like there was the the operation puerto is the big like drug scandal um kind of i guess of my era and that wasn't a sponsor fortunately operation. Operation Puerto was not like Festina. But they found all these blood bags in this doctor's fridge somewhere in the back of his car. And they all had like cute little code names. But it was like anybody who knew anybody could figure out who was who. It was like, you know, the guy's wife's name or his dog's name. And they didn't even try to disguise it and then like but they never released that and they never got official so like you're just racing with these guys and uh so you know and then yeah

and then there's guys like zerbal who just like tested positive for like something for him it was dhea and that's like in a lot of you know cheap pharmaceuticals it's like a bad steroid that lingers in your system it's the last thing you take for doping. It's the last. But he was over a threshold to the point where, like, if he'd had a bottle of water that day, he wouldn't have been positive because, you know, we're talking about micro millimoles or something. So how does something like that end up? Like, is there some pharmaceutical he was taking that accidentally had that in there? I mean, was it a mistake or? For him, like, I mean, I don't know. Put a gun to my head. I would mean was it a mistake or for for for him like i mean i don't know put a gun to

my head i would say it was it was a mistake it was there was some kind of vitamin he was taking some kind of uh some something a street taco like all the thresholds are sober it's just it's not a perfect system so the the logic of it is if you if you're for if you're catching a bunch of guys that somebody's going to slip through who who't really. And that's, I think, just statistically. And I feel like there were a few victims of that. But that's different from, like, what was the whole Contador thing with the meat? Right.

He ate bad meat or something like that? That was his excuse. But that's the funny thing is, like, the thing that he tested positive for, like, could have been from banned meat, except was probably on epo before that so it's kind of like a lot of weird things like that do you think that uh like what you know the advances in pharmaceuticals and genetic engineering like all this the the gestalt of like technological progress is so rapid these days that it's hard to imagine that there isn't a fringe that's just always going to be a couple steps ahead of whatever the testing protocols are going to be able to test for. Right.

I think that's 100% the case. And I think that would apply to any sport or like any aspect of society like Wall Street. And I think that would apply to any sport or like any aspect of society like Wall Street. And unfortunately, like in cycling, because how bad it was, because how heavy it was, I feel like that's become the narrative in cycling is who's doping and who's not. And you'll hear like, if you hear old football fans or old basketball fans, they're like, would LeBron beat Michael Jordan as prime? Like that's the stuff they debate about to ad nauseum and and in cycling it's what was that guy on you know what was he doing and i think because as part of the story it kind of cycles and it makes it worse it needs uh i feel like it the sport needs some breath of fresh air to reinvigorate, uh, public enthusiasm about it. Cause I just know personally, like as a fan, like I was super into watching it, followed it really closely from like,

I don't know, 2007 to 2010 or 11 or something like that. And then, and then I just was like, I'm just, I can't get into it. You know, I just can't get, I can't get up for like being psyched to watch these races anymore. Right. You know, I don't know whether that's because we need a new superstar or, you know, a personality to get us excited about it, or just a sense that what we're watching is real. Right. I hear you. I don't, I don't know the answer to it. There's, there's definitely like, I think there's a lot of problems. Obviously, there's a lot of problems in the sport. I think one is the grand tours, like the big races, the ones that are on TV. I think they're sort of, they forget that the riders aren't doing EPO anymore.

So they're like, there's this weird like penis sizing contest of who can have the hardest stage race between the Tour of Spain, the Tour de France, and the Vuelta. And they're all like, well, we have 16 mountain top finishes this year. And it's kind of like, all that means is the best climber wins by more and, and it's less watchable. And if they wanted to make it more competitive that, you know, it should come down to a time bonus the last day, that's what people are watching. Um, but, but yeah, there's, there's so much history to it that it's hard to sort of, it's hard to sort of fix. The sport has kind of evolved so much that it doesn't know what to do with itself, I think. I think it's also fraught with so much crony politics, especially in Europe, that there's an old guard that's holding on to a certain way of doing things. a certain way of doing things and until, you know, a new era, a new generation of people that are kind of organizing these races and controlling the governing bodies of these organizations,

it's going to stay the same. Yeah. I don't, of, of all the things that have been proposed, I think to me, part of what I, I don't, I don't think anything's going to work. I'll start there. Like from, of all the solutions that you see, it doesn't, it's not like that's the thing that's going to solve it. But I, part of what I always liked about cycling was kind of like, there is this kooky charm of it's a circus, like it's a bike race, but it's also a circus. And you can, as, as a fan, you can sort of laugh at it. I don't know if you were watching the tour last year, the day that like Chris Froome ran into the motorcycle, they're like racing up this mountain and it's the, it's the top four guys left and they're ripping up this mountain and there's sea of people and it's the beautiful spectacle oh they're all on the ground

and chris and then the next thing like it cuts to we don't know what happened we don't know why they crashed and then the next thing you see is chris froome running up the mountain and it's kind of like that's our sport that's unfortunately like you can you can call it whatever you want you can act as professional as you want you can take his speed suit to wind tunnels but he's running up a mountain in his right and no one knows where his bike is right yeah it's kind of hilarious and it's the you know the it's the drama you know the drama it's sort of like crashes in nascar or something exactly and that's it's it's so crappy as an athlete to like to look at like i would watch like the promos for the tour, the little, little ads they have for the tour to France and like

three out of four clips are just somebody sliding into a fence. It's like, oh, that's what you guys want to see me do. Like going over the guardrail. Right. Right. Okay. Yeah. That's dramatic, but ow. So walk me through like a typical training day or training week in the life of a professional cyclist. Like, what is that? What is that monk-like existence all about? Sure. Um, it, I don't know.

It's not that bad. Cause like when, when you're in the, when you're in the thick of it in like in Europe, those guys, like your, your race schedule is your training, right? Like essentially like your curve is determined by, cause you're doing week on week off stage races, um, like half the spring. So when you're, when you're at home, when you're training, you're, you're kind of mostly resting, you're recovering from, from whatever. Cause you're thrashed at the end of those. Um, but, but typically like the routine would be like, say you have a month in, in Spain or something. Um, you, you kind of get up at breakfast, get on the bike at 10, you meet your

buddies. There's like in Girona, there was like a text thread, like a WhatsApp group of, of a bunch of the teammates or English speakers, just all my friends basically. And you kind of message them like, Hey, I'm doing four hours tomorrow. I want to do three climbs and I'm meeting at this cafe at 10. And, uh, and you go, you ride, you do a few hours, you stop for a Coke and a crepe somewhere. And you know, the crepes de sucre, not the, not the ones with the salmon, all that bullshit in them. Um, but, uh, and then, and then you go ride a few more mountains. So it's, you're, you're smashing each other on the bike for three hours and take a break and you enjoy yourself and then you go do it again. And and in spain like dinner doesn't start until eight o'clock basically and and you're out it's a nice little

life if you can get there yeah it's very gentlemanly yeah yeah it's civil in in the top league like it's not cutthroat you're not competing with other riders on other teams for for whatever like it's it's very adult it's professional like you're you're all in this together you're not taking risks in the races as much like if families. And are, do you work with a coach or are you responsible for just sort of determining your own training plan or how does that work? With, with teams, it's kind of 50, 50, most, maybe, maybe more than half of like the world tour teams, the top tier teams have like a team coach and you have to be, you have to be working under them and they're giving you all the rides to do.

And that kind of goes with your racing on the teams I was on. I always have my own coach, just a friend from Boulder, basically who I'd known for a long time. So you have to hire your own coach. Yeah. And that's on you. Yeah. That's your pay for that.

It is. It's bizarre. Well, the whole sport is like Tom Brady, like, you know, just doing his own thing and like hiring his own coach, you know, like it just, it's it's a bizarre no and so much of it is like that and i think it well the whole sport we talked about like the first tour de france there's no drafting you might have a sponsor there's one there's one there's no team and then sort of later it evolves into it's now it's a full-on team sport like chris froome wins a tour de france he touched the wind for five percent of it was he actually like doing his job and the rest of his teammates who like their finish line is 5k

to go but those guys are good and then at the end like he's the one who gets all the money and he's the one on the podium right like it's in in the nba like you know the chicago bulls win and in this it's like chris froome won he's he's for Team Sky. But so the money doesn't go to the team, like the sponsor, whatever. That recognition doesn't go to the sponsor as much as it should. And then the results end up being very skewed, which probably is a lot of the reason guys dope too. Yeah. Well, I think people underestimate the team aspect of the whole affair, you know, and how much the teammates, you know, basically sacrifice themselves for the frooms of the world. Right.

And it's a chicken and the egg. If they put the whole team on the podium, maybe it would look different. Maybe we would see sort of how that should look. Yeah. I, you would imagine like, oh, well you're riding for Garmin. So Voters is telling you what to do and, you know, he's giving you your workouts and it's like, no, he doesn't have anything to do with that really. Right. Like that's not, I mean, his job is to like manage the team and see the

big picture. Yeah. I think he coached like personally one or two guys the last couple of years, but, and there was a team coach. If you wanted to work with him, I think maybe five or six guys, but, and they sort of, the team coach would interface with your coach and sort of make sure you're on track and there, you know, you upload your power data to somebody's website and nobody actually looks at it, but they make you think they're looking at it and they're kind of enforcing, but there's just the budget's not there to sort of, at least it wasn't to oversee me. Like I was, I was at the bottom of fringe. I could do whatever I want and nobody would have noticed. But are you like a data geek freak kind of guy who's super into your, you know, kilojoules and watching your Watts and all of

that. Like how, how important, you know, is all of that? Like when you were training at your, you know, at your sort of peak, it's, it's a tool as far as like, I know a lot about it and my coach knows a lot about it. And that was part of what, like my workout would be ride this many, like go out and do 3,500 kilojoules and then start doing your intervals. So I know a lot about it, but I say I'm far from a geek as far as it's like the last thing I want to talk about. And I know like what it's worth to have good power.

Like there's, there's so much, there's so much else to the sport and, and the dynamics of a race. Like I know a lot of guys with amazing power who cannot win a bike race. And, and I know some guys who like, you see their power. It's like, how have you ever won anything? Like you must be some kind of a ninja. Uh, it's, it's like a small fraction of the picture. Yeah.

You see, uh, this culture of amateur athletes that are so into, you know, their garment and their Strava and like, you know, their heart rate and their Watts and all that kind of stuff. It's so easy to get super caught up in that. And pretty much without fail, when I talk to professional athletes, like they have a much more balanced, uh, arm's length relationship with wearables and all of that kind of stuff. Right. Like it's, it's one of the things that you look at, but, uh, I think a lot of cycling and this comes to like the, the bike itself, like people, I think a large percentage of, of people who ride bikes, just like having nice bikes. And it's more, it's like half tinkering and half collecting.

And, and if you ride your bike at all, it's a bonus. That's a very politic way of describing a certain aspect of cycling culture. Right. So, but I mean, it's like, if that's what you're into, that's what you're into. People like working on cars, people like, you know, shining their bike. And it's, that's not, that's not what I'm into it for. But, and with the same thing, like geeking out on the power data is another side of it that some people just get, get super into to the point that it's, it's really funny to be me or to, to have good power or to be anybody. And just like, if you're a pro, you're scared to tell anybody your power

because I had, like I had, I've won this race in the U S and, and some magazine featured my power file and, and the, the comments and the feedback that I got from it, it was, it was 50, 50, that power is too good. You're doper obviously and 50 50 like you should there was nothing in between there was no like good effort phil and and it's it's frustrating but it's more just it's hilarious at some point once you get out of it have you ever bet on slow twitch.com they have a whole forum there that's like a it's like a sewer of that kind of right you know attitude it can be i started putting my files on on strava and there's it's it's it's funny just the comments and people are like your power meter's off that can't be possible and i'm like

no this is all i ever did like i'm gonna beat the local guy by a lot on the thing like there's got to be a lot of pros though that don't want they don't want to share that that information, though, because they think if their competitors see that, then they'll be clued into what they're doing or they're kind of tipping their hat as to where they're at in their training. Right. Yeah, that's I think like the top guys, I kind of see that. Like if if you're if the Tour de France is basically like a lactate threshold contest, you, you know, if you don't, Chris Froome wouldn't want anybody to know where his is. Right. Um, I, I still think that whole thing, given the doping culture, given all of it, like, I think that's kind of silly and what's it gonna, what's it gonna reveal? Um, I, I feel like people should, transparency is nice. Yeah. Um, and given the other hurdles that we're dealing with, I don't see why they're like hiding their data as if it's as if there's anything really special to it.

Like we can all guess. Right. And you kind of know who's who's who and who's going to be where. And ultimately on race day, you got to show up and race. Right. Right. It's almost like, I mean, some guys put tape over their Garmin devices. Right.

Because they just want to race and go on feel and not be like because it can play head games with you if your watts are off and, you know, it can take you out of what you're trying to accomplish. Sure. That's definitely like an amateur thing is like staring at the power too much and not know if you're doing it long enough, if you're a professional, like you can feel when you're at threshold or above threshold, like you don't need, I would do the exact same time trial effort if I was looking at power, if I wasn't. Right. And that goes at that level with everyone. Yeah. I mean, I know, you know, my background is swimming. So like, I know when I swim a hundred meters, like I could tell you within a second, like what that time is just because you've been doing it forever. I'm sure you at any moment, you could say my heart rate is this, and this is what

my Watts are just based on how in touch you are, like how connected you are to the bike. And the same thing, like if you're a runner and all you're doing is like staring at your lap times or your splits, then eventually you'll go insane if you're trying to be better every day and you can't just sort of tune out with like, here's my workout, here's what I'm doing, here's how I feel. Yeah, you can fall down the rabbit hole of, of power. Yeah. I think the other thing that, that a lot of people don't realize about professional cycling is a lot of the, a lot of the saddle time is saddle time. Like there's a lot of like low grade aerobic, you know, just getting out and riding. And, you know, you're not just out killing yourself for eight hours every single day. Like there's a lot of just, you know, enjoyable riding, just putting miles on your bike and getting used to what it feels like to just kind of be out all day in a very

casual kind of pace. The, the middle, the middle third of like every big race, like you're trading recipes in a pack, like your heart rate is 120. And so it's at that point, like when you're training for that, you're sort of training to like burn fat more efficiently and, and your metabolism and stuff like that. Like that's where the gains are made in, in that part of the race. What do you think is the biggest misconception that people have about being a professional cyclist? And we kind of talked about yeah i mean probably like the the doping is one thing there's still like a pretty decent percentage just like

yeah they're all on it this is this is a stupid sport i'm like are you really a fan of cycling if you think that like i'm like i've i don't know you see it all if you look at it but um i would say like it the the the glory of it and the kind of the professional athlete mystique is, is shattered when you're in it. Um, and that's not to say like, it's not beautiful, but it's also, it's a circus. And that's, that's definitely like the, I've, I've been at race buffets, you know, somewhere in Argentina or something. And like, I, like we're eating cold rice and it's like the best guys in the world.

And it's like, that's, that's it. And it's like, like that's Mark Cavendish and he's eating the same thing I am. And like, isn't he a millionaire? And, but that's, that's what happened. Yeah. You tweeted the other day, like you were recollecting some moment where you were like lugging a suitcase down the street. Oh yeah.

Like at one of the one day, like Roubaix or something like that. Exactly. And Taylor Finney walks by and you're just like, this is great well that was the so perry rubay uh last year 2016 i'm on cannondale and i'm like hanging out in gerona training for for some stage races mountains where i belong like i don't the cobblestone one day thing like i'm a climber i don't i have no business there but there was was a point where somehow a cold went around the whole team and everybody got sick and I got to be the guy they called to be the last spot. You have to fill eight spots or nine spots, whatever, at a big race like that

or there's a fine. So literally they just needed a body. And I was the sacrificial climber lamb who was thrown to it. So I got a call like 48 hours before the biggest race in the world. And they like yo phil we need you i'm like oh god and like i've never you know they use like a specific bike for that yeah i'm like i've never touched any of it yeah it's a whole thing explain to people the world of peri ruby peri ruby it's it's so the tour de france is like the the main race of of cycling but then peri ruby is kind of the it's a one day there's there's cobblestones there's carn, there's these three foot wide roads that you're

somehow racing on, but like, it's not even possible to have a race on it, but it's the biggest thing that happens in Belgium. And, and it's, it's like in this small pocket of our sport, it's like the big one day race. It probably gets better like TV ratings than the tour, because it's all concentrated. Um, but it's's always it's just a famous mess for just like bikes aren't meant for these roads and and it's it's a zoo yeah you're literally riding on these cobblestones where you just feel like you're getting jackhammered right you're you're pounded and so the specialists at this are like the sprinter types the big heavy dudes who grew up in exactly tom boonen and peter sagan like those those dudes um not the the skinny 150 pound six one guys right um so what was that like for you well it was at

some point like i was i was there and i sort of knew my my role and uh and i was kind of like i'm just gonna enjoy this like i don't know i can't do anything like i'm just gonna try to not die but uh but it was kind of like when when i was called up it was like immediately a joke this. Like, I don't know, I can't do anything. Like I'm just going to try to not die. But, uh, but it was kind of like when, when I was called up, it was like immediately a joke, like in the worldwide, in the cycling world, there was, there was a hashtag pray for Phil campaign on Twitter from, and, and, but, but then like they do the call-ups, they do like the, the announcement and the team presentation and, and on my team, all the guys line up and I get the loudest cheer, like all ironically from the crowd.

And I just like, I just always have laughed at it. So that was like the moment of I arrived and I'm walking down the hallway and like Finney who like is born for this and like this is like his thing of the year. You know, he could win it someday and he kind of comes out in the hallway and sees me and just started busting out laughing

like have fun tomorrow. I did all right. I got in the early break that's hard uh-huh that was uh that's definitely better than than i was expected to do listen man for any you know i i'm sure there's legion of professional cyclists and young cyclists who who would dream of doing that race one day exactly my soul to have that experience yeah yeah totally even even though like it sort of meant something about the way my career was headed that that I was the guy called up for the race. That was one of the signs, one of the nails in my coffin of being a pro cyclist was that's my job on this team. It's a joke. well let's talk about the worst retirement ever okay yeah so you decide to retire but it's it's not really it's not really a retirement because you're on a mission right well my joke is kind of like i was i wasn't good enough to be a pro cyclist and i'm going to be the worst

at retiring and so i'm gonna like i'm starting a job soon the best you know or yeah so i mean quietly it's the best retirement ever that's the tongue-in-cheek idea but because nobody's making me do it it's so it's it's all my idea but so the the concept is um i'm i'm going after hill climb records and and basically stravas but more broadly like the records could have been established a long time ago um kind of all over the country and i I, I kind of, I had a few sponsor relationships and we're just doing the YouTube channel around it. So it's all, it's all tongue in cheek, but part of, part of what's funny is like, I'm kind of making fun of the people who take Strava too serious, people who take power too seriously. And to the point where I'm going,

I'm going far overboard and I'm, I'm going after Tom Danielson's Strava segment in Tucson on Mount Lemmon, and I have a 13-pound bike, and I have a $400 speed suit, and I have a follow car, and we're filming it, and it's like, okay, I'm just taking this to 11, and all you guys can get mad at me. Right. But it's been really funny. I think it's a good way to kind of go away. It's a great idea.

I'm not surprised tons of sponsors want to get on board with that funny. I think it's a good way to like, to, to kind of go away. It's a great idea. You know, I'm not surprised, like tons of sponsors want to get on board with that and, and, you know, film it for YouTube and you're on this mission to like tackle all these challenges. But I think in order to kind of provide context for that, uh, you have to talk a little bit about sort of the origin of Strava and Strava culture and kind of what's happened with all of these KOMs. I mean, Strava and Strava culture and kind of what's happened with all of these KOMs. I mean, I remember being out here when Strava first launched and I was training for Ultraman and I would, I would do, I would train a fair amount with like Ben Bostrom, you know, Ben. Oh yeah. And in the early days, like Ben was going around taking the KOMs everywhere. Like that guy's a,

even though he was, I mean, I think that guy could, he could have been a professional cyclist and i don't know why he never like he probably never might doing his thing he's so talented on a bike like he would ride up latigo on his mountain bike and just crush most people you know um but he was taking them and then dave zabriskie was taking a bunch and it was all kind of like fun and i had to get off strava because i was trying to train for Ultraman and like I had to be in aerobic zone most of the time. And it would screw with my head because I'd hit a climb and I'd be thinking, what is this going to look like on Strava? And it's not moving the ball forward in terms of what I'm trying to ultimately accomplish. So I had to log off and not deal with it anymore. But it was kind of fun. It was cool. And with all the hills, you know,

all the climbs around the Malibu, you know, Santa Monica mountains, there was like a healthy competition around it. And then with tour of California and the growth of Strava, there was a lot of professional cyclists getting into the game. And then a lot of the KOM started being taken by, you know, real riders in the mix. And then a lot of riders who ultimately got uh got busted for doping right so a lot of these kom's are held by dopers or ex-dopers right it's yeah it's it's funny like that whole that whole world of strava and it is like a world in itself um but yeah especially like around here there's the the kom's here are all they're all world class like everything everything here is

either like from the tour of California or from like a pro training camp. And so, so for me, for me, for me to get them, I honestly like do feel proud of the ones that I get. But part of the mission really is to reclaim these KOMs clean. Right. So that was, that was sort of how it started. That would be the genesis of it was, there was, there was one guy who, who lived in LA and kind of was – he was sort of a known doper. He tested positive at Masters Nationals years before and then he got caught. He'd been selling EPO online. And after – I think after all of that, he made it a mission to like – he got all of the ones in L.A. And he was under a pseudonym on Strava. Yeah, he had a fake name. I don't want to give him the publicity.

But yeah, he had like a fake name that was sort of tongue in cheek. And he had this like clothing brand he was trying to promote. And he promoted that via like Strava and Instagram, which is like a bizarre business model. And then sort of people figured out his past and and it it gets it looked to them like he was doping for strava i don't know if that's true but it was it was enough that like when he's on the top of every leaderboard in la it was kind of an eyesore for that community uh-huh but he was strava famous yeah he made himself strong and he went and like i mean he was strong and like so a local elite amateur or even pro, like who wasn't a climbing specific dude really couldn't get them.

Like they were out of reach for, for most humans. So then when I retired, I kind of just like went on a group ride for fun. I went on like the Nichols ride is the big fast person ride on, on Sunday mornings in LA. And, and I, I, I just went as hard as I could. I was in a bad mood and and i ended up getting the strava for nichols canyon and all of my friends like i my cell phone blew up that night like i just won a big race in europe like it was it exploded like dude you got nichols i was like you guys like this like this is like you're getting more attention than you were when you

were when you were riding for garmin right i was like hey like how do you how when you were, when you were riding for Garmin. Right. I was like, Hey, like, how do you, how dare you guys be surprised that I can get a Strava from like an, like an amateur guy who, you know, and, and be like, okay, this is what I'm going to do now. So like, I would just peck away. And I eventually like, I got all the ones from him. And then I kind of challenged myself and got all the ones in the canyons from the pros here and doper or not doper. Um, but, but that sort of became the story is like, I'm, I'm like the Robin hood stealing the KOMs back for the clean riders. Right. Um, so how many of them do you have around you? Do you have a lot to go now? Yeah, you do. Yeah. I got that. That was a good one. Um, that's the jewel. Yeah. That's,

that's the one. Um, no, I, I basically, I have all the good ones in the canyons now. So I have my Fondo and I wanted to get all those. Um, and then I have, yeah, I basically, I have all the good ones in the canyons now. So I have my Fondo and I wanted to get all those. And then I have, yeah, I basically like went and collected them. So I'm the king of the Santa Monica mountains at this point. I'm the king of this tiny kingdom. So you have, oh, you have every, you basically have every client. Do you have Stunt Road? Yeah, I got Stunt Road, man. Yeah.

For people that are listening, Stunt Road is like literally one mile from where we're sitting right here. I got Paiuma. You know, you just list them, man. I got Rockstore. Dude dude you are a superstar and what's how many people are following you on strava now i like 8 000 or something i don't know but it's it's funny because like i when as as a pro cyclist like you're an athlete it's but it's a fringe sport i would if i rode my my bike in my canada kit or something like i'd get recognized in on on the road every day uh street clothes very close to never a few times a year since i retired and stopped racing

professionally and i started going for stunt road in a skin suit with covered in cookies um it i get recognized on the street like weekly maybe it's like as like the strava guy and it's funny like people i don't know how that works but the it's it's bigger than you think that world and and it does it means something to people like it doesn't it means less to me to have these kms i just think it's fun but but some people are like they were super stoked about it so it's been a fun it's interesting that like you you found your niche as a professional cyclist like becoming more well known and recognized you know post-professional career by virtue of social media and it was all a joke like i was just i was kind of just killing time until my contract was out and i was going to

start a job which i still am but the uh yeah i was just messing around and then it kind of snowballed and the company's like hey hey, can we sponsor you? And I was like, are you serious for Strava? Fine. You should make it so like you're just you get all these sponsors and you're making way more money like doing this than you were when you were actually a professional. The budget for my YouTube, it's very close to being a low paid. That's cool. Every team other than the World Tour stuff.

I mean, that's an awesome side hustle. You know what I mean? Like sort of leveraging social media and people's interest. You know, there's a huge, like you said, like the Strava community is passionate and large. You know what I mean? There's a lot of attention on that. And to be able to kind of, you know, show your prowess in that world is a cool thing. Like you got, did you get Mauna Kea?

Yeah. I think you saw that. That was part of, that was one of the first ones that I went for. And Baldy? Yeah. I think you saw that. That was part of that was one of the first ones that I went for. Yeah. And Baldy. Yeah. And I and I'm so the whole the whole YouTube mission is like I kind of because it's it's social media based. I'll sort of crowdsource it and I'll just put on Facebook like, hey, vote.

You know, I want to go to the southeast. What's my climb? And and, you know, more votes are on Mount Mitchell. So I'm going to Mount Mitchell and we'll see what i can do there and you got uh mount lemon coming up um i i did i taped mount lemon mount lemon will be when does this come out uh i don't know okay when should it come out well so i can't can i tell the results of mount lemon it'll be a couple months until until that episode is out oh okay um so i can't reveal if i got mount lemon or not i got you but uh i did not get hype i didn't get palomar

that was i was nine seconds short on palomar that was disappointing who owns that one uh chris horner who i'm not a fan of so we that was that was personal so that was more fun so uh but so it's it's that kind of the whole story did you you, you raced him up Baldy once, right? Yeah, I raced him a ton. So when he, he was kind of one of the guys who, who, when Europe rejected him at later age and with a, with a, we don't know about his history kind of thing. He came back and raced in the U S against like a bunch of nice, nice kids who never were in that pool. And, and I understand that, but he was also kind of a dick about it so so i got to it's easier to train and get off the couch if you're angry so he he sort of took the brunt of

that that year right um and so yeah we had this rivalry going so part of it was a joke because like i know he doesn't care if he has his palomar strava or not because he won the vuelta but but so it's it's sort of the whole idea is kind of tongue-in-cheek it's and it's fun it's it gets to be like my my trolling uh full time do you think you'll go over to Europe and tackle the the you know the the Alps and the Pyrenees and I hope I have something better to do than a season two of worst retirement ever honestly well you're gonna um you're gonna you're you're taking a job at Wasserman yeah yeah that Yeah. That's right. That's cool. So I had Casey on the podcast. I heard that.

That was funny. Yeah. So that's cool. What are you going to be doing over there? So, so my, I'll, I'll be many guys under Casey, but they, so my, the guy who's going to be my boss, kind of, he does events, he does brands, a couple athletes. So we're sorting all that out. I think I'll kind of just like start in the bottom to middle, you know, of, of, of

being a grownup and, and see my, my competency and see my interest and, and hope to move up. But I'm, I'm lucky to, to be able to get in there. But it's more, it'll be more like working with brands and events, not like representing cyclists as an agent. Yeah. I think the, so my, the way I kind of got in with Wasserman was that was my agent. I was a, I was a Wasserman athlete. Um, and, and the cycling, the cycling business, as we talked

about, like it's busted, man. So to be a cycling agent, like just isn't an awesome idea because when he's my agent, he's like, he's kind of like, well, I can't, you can't really get endorsements because all the sponsors are team-based. So it's kind of like the team has the sponsors. And then like, if the, if there's something the team doesn't have a sponsor for your it's, it's fair game, but like the team's going to get every bit of cash they can from the industry. Unless you're like a Cavendish, right? Yeah. So like he can bring Oakley and have like a side deal with somebody else like that exists. But, but if you're any, if you're a guy who needs that money, like, like one year I had a, I had a company that, that wanted to pay me to wear their sunglasses, $5,000.

And my salary was $50,000. So $5,000 was nice. And then the team signed a sunglass sponsor. They're like, yeah, you don't get to have that. I'm like, man. So there's a lot of that. So like there's not much for an agent to do other than like my agent's job was like, well, I can call Votters again and he's not going to answer again. Right.

So it's not a great business to be that kind of an agent, I think. So there's still, he still has a few athletes and a few clients that he's working with, but mostly it's in the event kind of world. Right. And you've cut your teeth in the event space because you have your Gran Fondo. Yeah. So tell me about that. Well, I've cut my teeth everywhere because you have to. Yeah.

But sort of last year. Yeah. So tell me about that. Well, I've cut my teeth everywhere. Cause you have to, but sort of last year, right. So last year I kind of like the, a grand Fondo is it's like a mass participation bike ride. So they have like century rides that, you know, you sign up and you go, and there's like a course that's open to traffic, but it's, it's marked and there's a couple of stops for water and stuff like that. And then grand Fondo, it's, it started in Europe where the idea was you can ride like a big race course and they'll get like 10,000 people to do like the Paris-Roubaix Grand Fondo. And it's sort of a huge thing. And some guys are racing it and there's prizes. In the US, it's harder to like get legal, get the roads changed or closed stuff like that. But, uh, so it sort of just became a mass participation, um, fun bike day. And, and I kind of noticed like the guys who have successful fondos are kind of former dopers. And like the, the big one is, is Levi's grandfather. That's like the giant event. And I, 8,000 people or more even. And, uh, like, and Levi was just in that generation. And I think like, it's whatever, not even getting into that whole mess, but it's sort of, it was sort of like,

nobody had a Fondo that wasn't a doper. Um, and, and I just wanted to, to show like the roads in LA was another thing is there's, I've been living here for two years and it's, it's the best bike riding in the world, honestly. Like it's a 10 way tie with the best bike riding in the world, but there's nothing better than Malibu. And, and all my teammates are kind of like, yeah, I've been to LA. I was in traffic on the four or five. How do you train there? So I wanted to sort of give LA the reputation that, that it deserves and at least try and restore some of that. Yeah. It's cool. We were talking about that before the podcast. Like I was saying like, how come more, how come there aren't more pro cyclists that live out here? Like the training is epic. Right. Weather's great. And there's a few, and you see some of these teams that come out in the winter. Like I know I'm out riding and suddenly, you know, like a Peloton of 30 guys just breezes by me. Like I'm standing still, you know, in a blur. So I see them out there. Um, but it's amazing that there are these pockets standing still you know in a blur so i see them out there um but it's amazing that there are these pockets of you know in the united states at least in like boulder or san diego where

people seem to congregate and yet it hasn't really connected the dots haven't really been connected with this area and yet it's so amazing here yeah no it's it's totally true it it's a, it's somehow doesn't have the reputation deserves for, for all that for, I think it's just endurance sports in general. Like in LA, you can go, like you can live in the city and you can, you can hike into Griffith park and get eaten by coyotes. If you want, like, there's that much nature there. There's, there's like, it's, it's like a nice place to kind of live and, and, and do whatever else.

Um, I mean, but where we are right now, like out here, you know, it's like most people who visit L.A. don't come out here. They don't even know that it's here. So it's still a little bit of a secret, I suppose. No, there's the PCH. Like everybody knows you can ride along that. There's a nice big shoulder the whole way on PCH. And then there's Mulholland Highway is like the famous highway at the top of the ridge. Like every if you see a car commercial, you can just like count to three and Mulholland's going to be in there right um and

that's like obviously that's a great road that Hidden Hills area yeah Griffith Park has a spot like every every every car commercial you can see like yep I've been I know that spot right whatever um and so it's it's definitely there then in between those two, like from the bottom of the ridge of PCH to the top on Mulholland, it's just like all these little canyons that like Latigo that we mentioned that nobody, nobody knows Latigo exists. Nobody drives on Latigo unless you're crazy enough to live there. And, and it's just this beautiful climb that you can see the ocean and then you get to the top and you can see snowy mountains. Like, where are you doing that? Um, so, so the Fondo is kind of idea to like, you know, I'm the LA pro.

Like, I'm the one here and let's see what we can do. So what are the climbs in your Fondo? Well, there's three different routes, but it goes up the Potrero from the backside. There's like Westlake Boulevard area from Zabriskie's neighborhood up in there. And then I won't tell his address on the thing and then um he'll have one creepy fan we can call him and ask him if it's all right

you call the um but so it goes it kind of goes from from there and then depending on which one it goes down to pch and then depending on which length either up, um, you go up either your Babuena or Ensenal or, or whatever, and just does little use. So there's no left turns crossing traffic. It's all super safe. Um, and, and yeah, and, and, and my, my Fondo is like cookie themed, like cookies. What's the cookie thing? That's a great question, man. I get that so often. I don't know how it happened. I, at some point, like I was writing for bicycling magazine, I think. And I mentioned like that, I like cookies, which doesn't set me apart from anybody. And, but the next race I went to, like someone had brought me a cookie. Like, they're like, Oh, I saw you were coming to this. And I

saw you like cookies. So I brought one. And then I like tweeted a picture of it. And then from there, like it's slowly snowballed into, by the time i get better and i'm like sort of well known and i'm on big teams like our bus would show up at the race there's like 10 people waiting outside with plates that they baked or bought from the thing and just for me and all my teammates are like like phil you know we like cookies too i'm like i know i don't know why this happens but it was like a whole thing it's like Ted King and the maple syrup. Like they, I think the fan, like it's easy if you can just be put in a box. And, but, but I, it was one of like the weirdest, but most amazing things in my life is that strangers, like I still get them in the mail sometimes.

It was like, you got to try my wife's thing. And I'm like, sure, here's my address. I don't know who you are, but I trust you. And no one's poisoned me. Yeah. Do you get like, like pot cookies in the mail or something like that? Yeah, you'd think I would have, but, but I haven't. Like people are just cool. Like everybody, they just want you to have their cookies. And it's been, it's, it's, it's been like so strange

and amazing. But so when I kind of was, was bouncing around the idea of this Fondo, um, a friend of mine runs M street kitchen or he's, he's owns a bunch of restaurants, Jeff Mahan. I don't know if you've been down there, but they've, you gotta go. They've got this amazing cookie. So this, like this guy who, who rides bikes, he's like a good bike rider. And, and he's like, he makes this amazing cookie. So we're a match. And, and he's like, oh, if you have a Fondo, like I'll make the cookies for it. I was like, yeah, it's going to be like 4,000 cookies. He's like, yeah, yeah, that's fine. I was like, now I have to put on the Fondo. So the cookies came before the Fondo.

Basically, like I was thinking about it. So what am I going to do with 4,000 cookies? Yeah. If everything falls into place like that, you kind of just have to like obey the world when it goes there. So this year, like Jeff has a charity that he works with called Chef Cycle and like a bunch of celebrity chefs that ride bikes. I think somehow like cooking and bikes go together like the brain that does that so do you know seamus mullen yeah exactly yeah he's a friend so he's he's part of that and um he like he does the ride with them and yeah super good dude but like i've had him on

the podcast oh cool yeah um so yeah we're gonna have so at the fondo like since we're involving them um i'm not sure if seamus is gonna come but like duff goldman like ace of cakes is gonna make some cupcakes and like both brian voltaggio and michael voltaggio like winner it's like there's mistral and stars at like a post-ride picnic basically right and it's going to be awesome that's cool that's what you know that's the grand what the gran fondo experience is supposed to be all about right it's great food and like you're kind of celebrating cycling it's not a race by any stretch of the imagination that's like some people want to make it into a race and they will and and have fun with that

and i'm going to be just like enjoying myself it came the fondo happened at a time that like i i didn't plan to retire last year like that wasn't really my goal and and i sort of found out i was retiring like the week before the fondoondo. And it was perfect because it, it gave me, like, I was planning this thing that was going to be a nice bike ride for, you know, for as many people as could come. And, and then like, as I transitioned out of like, what am I going to do? Like, what place does cycling have in my life? I, I had this, this day that was the best day I ever had on a bike of just like, I'm riding around with a thousand of my friends and we're stopping for cookies. And like, this can just be the next chapter of like,

cycling is still great. I can still love it. Like it's okay to still love it. And, and, and that's, that's the next chapter. And then, you know, all the people finish the ride and they're like, yeah, this was a great day. Thank you so much. Um, it was, it was like surprisingly transformative. And how many people did you have? We had 900 last year. And now we just opened registration last year. We had a ton signing. We're going to sell out this year. It's going to be awesome.

So it's October 15th, right? Is that when it is? Thank you. We're doing like an optional ride. You have to come. I definitely will come. Optional ride the day before. And then like food.

And I'll have a book coming out. It should be like a nice little party experience for the whole weekend. Lots of pro, my pro friends will all show up. This is how I make them visit me now. So philsgrandfondo.com. Is that that? Phil's Fondo. Phil's Fondo. All right. I'll put that in the show notes too. Yeah. That's cool. That's, that's awesome. I mean, for Levi, that's become like, that's his whole thing, right? He's probably going to be, I mean, I mean, his legacy is that. It becomes a big business at some point, right? Yeah, I think it does. And I think like he's done a ton for charity.

Like that part's nice. We didn't make a profit last year. That'd be cool if we did that. But like my sponsors are happy. So it kind of works there. But yeah, I think at some point, like people watch bike races, they enjoy it. And like Levi had this entertainment value.

But this event that he created, like everybody has a great day, thousands of times a thousand a year. And that's more of a legacy. And that ends up like feeling more significant than I want a thing. At least if you're me and you can't really win the big thing. Yeah, because on some level, it's it's giving back to the sport, you know what I mean? And there's nothing that feels better than being able to like contribute, you know, to the thing that like gave you a life and brought you so much joy. Right. And even if it like spit you up and tore you out as sort of I felt at that point, it's kind of like, oh, it gave me this. Like I never stopped smiling and laughing that day. Uh-huh. That's cool. So how many do you expect to have this year?

How many can you handle? I think we'll figure that out. I think we're going to cap it at $1,500 and I'm going to be pissed because it probably will sell out. But we'll see. Right. It comes down to like parking and logistics and how many cookies I can force Jeff May to make. And you have a book that just came out, right? Yeah, so I had-

Ask a Pro, so tell me about this. This was another thing, like a bonus of last year when like, I'll never figure out how my career kind of fizzled my second year in Europe where I just wasn't getting sent to the races that I thought I belonged at. And every time like I thought I had a good race, I'd just be on the bench for the next one.

And it was sort of like, it was getting to be my time, but I didn't, I wasn't ready then. But I ended up with like a lot of free time sitting around in Girona in like this beautiful apartment. But, you know, it's cheap to live over there. I'm right next to the cathedral and this like old stone building. It was amazing. And I'm like, I'm going to do something, you know? So I'd go train. And then, um, I, so I, one thing, one of the writing things I did was this ask a pro magazine column for Velen is just like a humor column that I did once a month for seven years. Um, there's mostly just like me making fun of

readers. Yeah. It's more like comedy than anything else. Yeah. So the first book I wrote was this was this story that was kind of emotional and the follow your dreams kind of thing. And then the Ask a Pro is they just put together these basically this funny little book. It's a cute hardcover. But like, I'm proud of it. It's entertaining. It's a nice, it's like a quick little fun read. And other thing I, I kind of wrote like a big boy book that will be, that penguin's going to come out with in the fall. Oh, wow. What's that? Yeah. So that's called draft animals. Um, living the pro cycling dream once in a while is in parentheses. So that's sort of the theme of like, you're living the dream and it's, and it's not what you thought it was, but you kind of cut out these little pockets where it's, it's, and I'm sure this happens to NBA players too, where a lot of times it's work and, or, you know, you're, you're a rock musician and you're on the stage, but you're also like carrying guitar through the airport. Right. And you have to pick out the pockets and sort of like, even if you get what you've always wanted, it's, you have to actually make it be what you've wanted.

So that's kind of the theme of, of what it's really like and, and kind of how to make peace with that. Um, to this generation of mine that I feel like was told like, Oh, you go after your dreams and everything's going to work out. Um, and then comparing that to the people I know who, who didn't even get as far as I did, who just got eaten by it. That's exciting, man. Three books. Yeah. Pretty short period of time. That's pretty prolific, man. I tried. Yeah. Again a pretty short period of time. That's pretty prolific, man. I tried. Yeah. Again, a lot of free time being a pro cyclist. A lot of evenings in Girona. That's exciting. So is that book though, the first book that you're doing with like a major publisher?

Yeah. And I think the last, I think that no more books are going to happen to me when I'm working at Wasserman. When do you start there i'm not sure exactly soon i'm i'm like launching the fondo and i've got my my youtube stuff um there's a couple clients that i'm like try to bring in and when that's sorted out is when i'll i'll jump in there how are you gonna how are you gonna keep up the training when you when you're gonna be like a little bit of a desk jockey all of a sudden well i i won't and that'll be the thing that'll be part of the curve of the story is like you'll see me like just get a little bit softer skin suit with the cookies on it isn't fitting as well as it was too many

cookies yeah so i'll have to be like smarter with my training and that'll be part of the story of like i'm not doing stage races i don't need to train 30 hours a week anymore i can i think i could get away with 12 what's funny is like since i stopped trying to train for for a pro cycling i like now i'm just training for like hill climb missions and no one's ever done that like at this level and all of my power like if you look at if you send it to the geeks like i've gotten better and i should go back to the pros but like it's not that's not doesn't paint the full picture but like yeah you have to be able to sustain like insane watts for like and you know 45 minutes right that's what i've been doing and like all of my watts have gone up since i was a pro but like if you ask me to climb two mountains

hard in the same day as you would in the stage race i'm screwed right i'm in big trouble yeah yeah because you're not putting in the eight hour seven hour rides and all that kind of stuff exactly but by by like the metrics it's i've gotten better so we'll see if i can keep that going it you know under under casey and and matt at wasserman and is straw like what is strava's relationship to like what you're doing um i don't know they uh i'm gonna be doing like a featured kind of campaign with them but but they're not they're not sponsoring it at all. Um, they're, I guess I'm, I'm using Strava as a vehicle the same way anybody would use Instagram or something else. So Strava is rolling out this sort of mini blogging platform.

Okay. Right. Like, are you part of your part? I'll be one of those. I'm one of those. Yeah. What are the odds? I just, no, I've been talking to them. I think I have a call with them this week. Okay. Yeah. Like the video thing. Yeah, exactly. So I'm excited about that. It's cool.

Yeah. It sounds, it'll be fun. Yeah. So like I, like I said, I was off, I had to get off it for a long time. And then this year, like I just started training for, I haven't raced in like five years, but I'm going to do this crazy race in September. And so I was like, I'm going to get back on it and just be transparent wherever I'm at. This is what i'm doing and just not like the challenge for me is to not get caught up in it and just

interesting yeah and like not let it occupy like what i'm trying to accomplish and just let the chips fall as they may or whatever and and that's cool because then i'm just like it's whatever it is whatever it is people want to say i'm slow or whatever you know like i don't care't care. And it's actually been really fun, you know, because there is a, there is such a beautiful community, you know, there of people that, you know, are interested in the things that we're interested in. So I've been enjoying it. Yeah. Of all the communities on, on social and on the internet, like the, the comment section

is always like an ugly place, but I find Strava to be like shockingly encouraging, very low on the trolls. Like people are cool. And like when I, when I did, so my, my last day as a professional cyclist, cause contractually it goes through the end of the calendar year was December 31st last year. And I climbed Mauna Kea that day. So I was like, I'm going to end it like this. And I like climbed, it's the biggest, it's from you dip your bike in the ocean and then

you just race up this volcano to 14 000 something and there's like a dirt road it's like the craziest ride you can do crazy yeah and so i like i went for that and parts of it are like barely rideable right oh i was running i like was off my bike like carrying my bike up a thing like and yeah it ended up being this like amazingly epic deep day for me um and i did it with with kevin seistrom the the ceo of instagram who like it was it was cool because you were you were like oh yeah i followed because he was he was sharing that on instagram like crazy and i was following that i didn't realize that you were yeah i was i was there so like i did it and then like, that was like the best day of his life. It was the best day of mine too. It's like, it's so cool. Cause like we, we did the same thing

and we had the same experience and we're like so different people, but it was, it was like such a beautiful day. And like, I didn't even really know him, but now like there's this bond that will never like, like we're like, we're best friends now. And you can't take that. It's funny. He's a super cycling geek. Yeah. He's so cool. Yeah. Um, but he's, he's like in it for all the right reasons. And like that, I, that I hope to move into cycling the same way where at some point, like Strava is just, it's an expression. It's like, it's a painting of here's, here's the route that I chose. Here's how I know the roads, here's my neighborhood. And and here's like but it's also like with my legs and and my and my lungs like how i'm expressing myself today um so hope at some point

like i can't get kom's anymore and and i think i'll just transition into that yeah so you've never coached anybody you're not like coaching's not your thing i i was like you have to if you're a low-level pro cyclist i coached at university of florida when i was there i coached the team for a year but but i i stopped as soon as i could i wasn't cut out for that i'm not patient enough so we we got to wrap this up but i always try to like end it with some you know imparting like some words of of wisdom or encouragement to people out there that are listening that could kind of glean some, you know, insight from you. So what is it like, what do you think the biggest mistakes that the average sort of, you know, not weekend warrior, but like, you know, guy who wants to be guy or woman who wants to be

competitive on a bike, like they're training for a triathlon or maybe a local crit or, you know, or whatever, what are the mistakes that you see? Like when you're out riding and you just see people out riding, you're like, why is that person doing that? If they only knew, you know what I mean? Because I just know from like when I'm riding around here and, you know, tons of people are wearing Garmin kits, but then every once in a while, like way off in the distance, you could barely make out that, that, that guy's wearing a Garmin kit. And I can tell from, you know, half a mile out, I was like, oh, that, that guy actually wearing a Garmin kit and I can tell from, you know, half a mile out, I was like,

oh, that, that guy actually rides for Garmin. Like I can just, I can tell the difference, you know, between the guy who's wearing it on the weekend and the real, the real deal. Sure. I mean, I think like, and then there's a million ways to answer that. The, the, the advice that I would give the kind of the fringe person, the people that are doing it for fun, but have goals is like, think about what kind of ride, what kind of workout got you started? Think about like what made you fall into it in the first place? Like what? Because everyone's a cyclist before they're an athlete.

Everyone just starts to ride bikes for fun. So for me, that was like, I just liked going out and exploring and like riding a bike. You see the world at this pace that like when you're driving, you miss it. You don't smell it. You don't see what's going on. When you're running, you can see it, but you don't cover a lot of ground. But when you're riding, you can really soak up a lot in a day. You can really feel what's going on and you can stop for pick up an apple or something.

And so that was what I got out of it. I found if you're training and you're staring at your power meter and you're doing your workout and your coach and all this stuff, like at some point it can start to feel like work if you're not careful. And so once in a while, like carve out, like think about what, what got you into it and carve that out for yourself and, and force yourself. So my coach would give me, um, this thing, soul rides, he called it. So like, just today go out and do what you feel like. Just go for a ride. Yeah.

And like. Don't, just leave the power meter at home. It's going to, it reinvigorates everything. And at some point like that, that definitely like extended my training and it made life a lot easier. And at some point that's all I'm going to do. Yeah. And I think just, you know, finding a community, you know, of people that enjoy doing it. I mean, we're lucky out here.

There's such a culture of it. And you had mentioned earlier, like, just hanging out at Peddler's Fork, which is a restaurant nearby. You know, it's relatively new, but it's kind of become like the hub of cycling culture in this area where everyone can kind of congregate. Right. hub of cycling culture in this area where everyone can kind of congregate right they made this like this like beautiful restaurant in like calabasas like the most expensive neighborhood and they just like made this bike dork mecca with little bike shop in the back and nice coffee and and that's yeah that's like the destination of the canyons at some point like you go for your your four-hour ride and you time it so you're a peddler's fork somewhere in the middle um and it's

yeah and you just it's a great community it's and but la is it's full of them there's there's just so many great people here good talking to you man yeah it's been fun we did it yep you all right no i'm so i'm all sweating is there anything we didn't talk about uh no man it's fun it was good right yeah totally all right cool so uh if you're digging on phil you can find him at phil the thrill.net there it is right yep and uh pick up the book pro uh ask pro and then draft animals and yeah well draft animals is coming when that's in the fall out of october yeah apparently i just thought you could pre-order that the cover isn't even made pre-order that now we're still arguing about the cover and where's the youtube channel uh it's i forget go to philathrill.net and it's there's a link on there worst retirement ever right is the name of it so it's uh it's in there cool and follow you on strava and instagram and twitter

and all those good places or don't yeah i like no you're like you're you're fun on twitter like because you're you know like you don't the thing is like you don't you don't take any of this too seriously like you make it fun you know like you're approach, the thing is like, you don't, you don't take any of this too seriously. Like you make it fun, you know, like you're approachable and, and, uh, and, and you have like this sort of sarcastic comedic flair that like runs through how you talk about cycling. I think a lot of people like that it's not to be taken seriously. And I think like more athletes could be served by just trying like a little bit harder as far as like the whole sport. And when you tweet, you know, if, if, you know, if your sunglass sponsor says, hey, can you give me a tweet?

Don't be like, I like my sunglasses. Like try and say something funny. You know, like there's so many personalities and like it's easy to do. And I think like, yeah, it's more fun that way too. Yeah, cool. And if you want to geek out and go on a deep dive into cycling culture, you have your podcast. Yeah. Yeah. The Peloton brief. Yep. Peloton brief podcast. Yeah. So there's a link on my site there too. Yeah. Cool. All right, man. Awesome. Let's do it again soon. All right. Sounds good. Thanks. Cool. I'd love to get on a bike with you sometime. Yeah,

let's do that. You can deal with like a really slow guy. That's that's me. No, look, I don't, I don't like riding hard anymore. I don't have to. All right, cool. Awesome, man. Peace. Glance. Yeah, buddy, we did it.

Great conversation. Do you guys like that? I hope you liked it. I got to tell you, I got a little bit of a brain fog right now. I came back from Sweden and that crazy experience, that ultra endurance experience, and threw myself right into another ultra, which is essentially trying to rewrite, create this second edition of Finding Ultra, which is due on September 21st. So since I've been back from Sweden, all I've been doing is locking myself in a room and writing, giving it the focus that I gave my preparation for Otillo. And I'm starting to go crazy. I've been waking up in the middle of the night.

I've been writing around the clock and I really think I need some fresh air. So sorry if I'm rambling right now, I'm doing the best I can. In any event, if you're into Phil, into his message, you want to check out more from him, philthethrill.net. That's the website, philthethrill.net, at Phil Gaiman, across all the social media platforms. Again, check out Phil's Fondo at philsfondo.com. That's October 15th, coming here in Malibu, philsfondo.com to get more information and sign up and all that good stuff. Don't forget to pre-order his new book, Draft Animals, Living the Pro Cycling Dream, once in a while. And also his podcast, the Peloton Brief Podcast, Real Talent with Phil Gaiman. If you would like to

support this show and my work, just share it with your friends and on social media, leave a review on iTunes, hit that subscribe button. And we have a Patreon set up for people that would like to contribute financially. And it warms my heart, everybody that has taken that extra step. I really appreciate it. Every once in a while, I used to say every week, every Thursday, I send out roll call, which is my weekly free email with five or six tools, tips, resources, articles I've come across, things that inspire me, things that I think are interesting that I want to share. But I have been very spotty in recent weeks and sending this out. Look, man, I'm trying to write a book. I only got so many hours in the day. I can't do everything.

So I apologize for not being totally locked in on my schedule with this, but I do send this out essentially every week, most weeks, I would say. So if it sounds like something you'd be interested in, I love doing it. Uh, it's not a, you know, this is, there's no affiliate links in the, in this or anything like that. It's just good information, stuff that, uh, either I shared on Facebook and nobody noticed or stuff that I'm not sharing on social media and this is the only place to get it. So you can check that out by entering your email address and any of those email capture windows on my website, richroll.com. And when you're there, we also have signed copies of all our books, Finding Ultra, The Plant Power Way, This Cheese is Nuts. We have t-shirts, we have tech tees and all kinds of other cool schwag and merch.

Schwag or swag? Somebody told me it's swag. I've been saying schwag, but I think it's swag. Also, if you are feeling particularly generous, it would mean so much to me if you contributed to the spring, which is charity waters, a subscription service that allows you to contribute a certain dollar amount every month to help people access clean water. You guys have been amazing in responding to this call ever since I put up my podcast with Scott Harrison. It's had a profound impact on not just the audience, but on people that are now going to be enjoying fresh water for the first time. Over 250 of you have signed up for the spring.

We've raised enough money to build, I think, five wells at this point. And I want to keep going. I got an email just the other day from a representative at Charity Water who said that they just can't believe that you guys are still signing up. When Scott does media, generally there's a bang, there's a spark and a bunch of people will sign up or donate and then it kind of trails off. And what they're seeing over at Charity Water is that you guys keep contributing, you keep signing up. There's more and more people joining the spring every week and they're telling me that's unheard of.

This is one of the most successful media appearances that Scott has made because of the response that you guys have made. And so I thank you, all of these people that are now going to be enjoying water. I'm sure they thank you. And I would like to continue the momentum here. What would it be like if we could build 10 wells instead of five? So if you got an extra five bucks, if you got an extra 10 bucks a month, 20 bucks, whatever you can afford, I want you guys to check out the spring and consider donating, and it will make you feel great, and it will significantly contribute to the betterment of humanity. And what's better than that, right? To learn more and to sign up, go to the spring by typing in this very specific URL, cwtr.org forward slash rich roll spring, cwtr.org forward slash rich roll spring. That link is up in my show notes as well. So you don't have

to write it down if you're driving a car or you're on a treadmill or something like that, but I implore you to please explore this opportunity for yourself and for others. I also want to conclude this podcast by thanking everybody who helped put it on, helped produce it. Jason Camiolo, as always, for his amazing work on the audio engineering and production of the show, as well as his help compiling the show notes, creating the show notes, creating the website page. Sean Patterson for your help on graphics and theme music by Annalima. Thanks for the love you guys. I appreciate it. I got to get this book done. I can turn it in on

Thursday and then I'm going to be back to my normal self, or at least that's what I'm telling myself. Anyway, I'll see you back here soon. Appreciate you. Have a great week. Make it count. Peace. Plants. Namaste. Thank you.