The Rich Roll Podcast - From Junk Food Vegan to Whole Food Plant-Based Chef

Episode Date: October 8, 2013

Let me be clear. Just because you are vegan does not mean you are eating a healthy diet. Today Julie and I sit down with the wonderful Chef AJ to talk about the enormous difference between a simple ���animal product free” diet and a whole food plant-based diet. I knew AJ was an amazing plant-based chef. What I didn't know was her inspiring story of personal transformation. The story of an overweight, junk food vegan on the brink of serious health calamity who found salvation in the whole food plant-based lifestyle. Tune in and let her tell you how she overcame her food addictions to become the health advocate she is today. Her responses might surprise you. AJ is a kick in the pants. It was tons of fun chatting with her. I sincerely hope you enjoy the interview. And if you are in California and happen to stop in a Sharky's restaurant, ask for the AJ Burrito! Enjoy! Rich

Welcome to the Rich Roll Podcast, episode 56, with Chef AJ. The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey, everybody. Welcome to my podcast, The Rich Roll Podcast. Hi, Rich Roll. How's it going? It's going pretty good. Thanks for having me. That's Julie Pyatt, the Sometimes co-host. That's right. I'm really excited to co-host today's show.

I was getting some grief on the long intro, so we're going to just kind of dispense with that and get right into the show today, I think. Okay, let's do it. But a really cool thing happened today. We passed a million downloads. That's amazing. Which is insane. Wow, you guys, thanks. So I just wanted to thank everybody who has been supporting the show

and has been listening. And although I can't respond to all the emails and the Facebook posts and all that kind of stuff, I definitely read all of them. And it means a lot to me, to us and to the mission. Yeah. Thanks so much. So we appreciate it. Today we have a, we have a great show. We have Chef AJ on the program. How's it going? Hi, good. Thank you. If you've been listening, you know that we have a wide variety of guests on this program.

If you've been listening, you know that we have a wide variety of guests on this program. Lots of vegans, lots of plant-based people, doctors, nutritionists, world-class athletes, entrepreneurs, health advocates, and activists. And Chef AJ has been on our radar for quite a while. It's weird that we haven't met sooner. Your name comes up like every day. I know. We have mutual friends. We absolutely do.

And I heard you speak the first time last year at the Healthy Lifestyle Expo. I just got an email from Jeff about the event this year. To speak or to attend? No, to attend. Oh. Yeah. He didn't ask me to come by and speak. Oh, no.

I'm a one-trick pony with that. I don't know. Actually, you were my favorite speaker last year. Oh, thanks. I mean that seriously. Cool. I appreciate that. I don't know. Actually, you were my favorite speaker last year. Oh, thanks. And I mean that seriously. Cool. I appreciate that. And you're, are you speaking this year?

He's never asked me to speak. I've known him for years. Really? Why not? He has me do the bus tour the Thursday before where I take the people all around Los Angeles. Uh-huh. Cool. I don't know. You'll have to ask him.

I will ask him. But it's true what you said about, because even when I send you an email, you get an email back saying you can't respond. So that's, that's true. Well, uh, oh yeah. Well, what happened was, yeah, the, the emails got out of control. So I had to put up an auto responder to saying, I got your email, but like, you know, I'll do my best to get back, but it's getting too crazy. And my life was starting to fall apart. So no, no, it's great. No, we just, we just had to get some support in place for him. So we're going to be responding to all those emails, but we just need to get some support in place for him. So we're going to be responding

to all those emails, but we just need to help you because the workload was overwhelming. Right. That's a good problem. It is a good problem. That's called a quality problem. Absolutely. So don't stop sending me emails. Yeah, keep sending them because we do read them and we care. Right. Exactly. And if you've been enjoying the show and want to support the show,

the easiest, best way to do it is to use the Amazon banner ad at richroll.com. Go to richroll.com. Just click that if you're going to buy something on Amazon and it doesn't cost you anything extra, but they hook us up with some loose change and that helps us keep the bandwidth flowing. And as a matter of fact, we are in our new studio today for the very first time. Yeah. It's so exciting. It's amazing in here. I can't wait to Instagram. We're totally pro. So I got to take some pictures and Instagram it. Yeah. And honestly, it's because of you guys. It's because you guys have been using the Amazon banner ad and supporting the show that's allowed us to turn the dial up on the quality and the production value

and all that kind of stuff. So again, thanks. We got to get out of the garage. And we're doing the show naked today. That's right. It's a good thing just to add. Where's the video camera? Keep that in mind as the conversation continues. I think we're going to be talking a lot about oil, I think. No oil. No oil, oil. We're going to be talking about a lot of stuff. So Chef AJ is obviously a chef, right?

No, my mother just named me that. With foresight. You've been, correct me if I'm wrong, you've been plant-based for 36 years. Yeah, September was my 36th anniversary. That is unbelievable. I know. You are just amazing. You're a legend.

I'm 642 months old now, I think. Wow. Look at you. Do you have a plant-based birthday that you celebrate? You know, it was right around Labor Day 1977. So I just kind of say September 1st. That's so cool. What was that about?

I mean, what motivated that? Well, actually compassion first. I mean, now I'm in it also for every other reason, health and the environment. But when I was 17 years old, I went to the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia. I wanted to be a veterinarian. And instead I became a vegetarian, which is interesting because the first day on the job, we were each assigned to work for a veterinarian at Penn. And he handed me a tank of live salamanders. And he said, I need you to cut their heads off. And I was 17 years old. I was on scholarship. I was looking at the guy, the white coat, not knowing what to do. There was no Neil Barnard or PCRM or people for the ethical treatment of

animals. So I did cut the head off of one of the salamanders. And it was the worst experience of my life because even though they don't scream, they bleed a lot. And I was vomiting and I went to the hospital and I just said to God, I'll never eat, wear, or experiment on any of your other animals again. I ended up pretty much flunking out of college, at least at Penn. And I became a vegetarian. But there was no internet. There was no information. So I became a junk food vegetarian or vegan, eating basically soda and chips and bread and french fries.

And it was great for the animals. But the problem was is 26 years later, I got the beginning of cancer, colon cancer, from eating such a junky vegan diet. Wow, that's amazing. So you had like polyps? Yeah, I had several large, grossly bleeding edematous polyps in my sigmoid colon that always turn into cancer if they're not removed. And they couldn't remove them during the normal sigmoidoscopy, so they said I had to come back and have surgery, take drugs, have anesthesia.

I said no, so that's when I changed my diet, July 6th, 2003. And to the kind of, I guess, stricter version of the vegan diet I teach today. And again, you know, it's not that everybody has to eat as strictly as me. It's not that everybody has to eat no oil, no sugar, no salt, but if you've already got a disease that's been progressing, it might be a way to consider eating rather than the junk food vegan diet. Right. But just to go back and fill in the gaps on that, I mean, so you get diagnosed with these precancerous polyps and you said no to traditional procedures? I've always been good. I mean, what did they want to do?

They wanted to go and cut them out? Yeah, cut them out, cut them out. And then I don't like surgery and I don't like anesthesia and I don't like medication. And I had been able to escape it thus far. I was 43 years old. And so instead, I went to a place called the Optimum Health Institute in San Diego, California.

And I remember checking in because my diet was so bad, you guys. I mean, it was a- So what are you eating? You're eating potato chips and french fries and Dr. Pepper? I wish I was eating, yes. Dr. Pepper, yes.

It was so funny because my breakfast every day was a Coke Slurpee, 32 ounce. Oh my goodness. Eight extra pumps of vanilla syrup. My lunch was a Coke Slurpee, 32 ounce, with eight extra pumps of vanilla syrup. My lunch was a 48 ounce Dr. Pepper, regular. And I always tell people the only reason it was 48 ounces is because back then they didn't have the 64 ounce or the 128 ounce. So that was my breakfast and lunch. Not so much French fries and potato chips, but more candies, cakes, cookies, pies, and ice cream. But they were vegan. So at the time though, were you thinking, well, I'm vegan, so it can't be that bad?

Or did you know like, hey, I know that this is really bad? No, I didn't know. Rich, I swear I didn't know because every doctor I went to said, oh, sugar's not addictive, all this kind of stuff. I really didn't know the kind of damage I was doing. I hadn't read the China study. I didn't know. I really believed that if it was vegan, it was healthy.

But now I know it can be very unhealthy if it's vegan, but if it's a whole food and vegan, it's healthy. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well

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because the sort of vegan alternatives to so many foods, they finally figured it out, where all this stuff tastes great. Yes. And so it's very, you know, it's so much easier to lapse into that. And even, I was talking about this the other day with somebody, you know, a good example would be veggie grill,

which I love. And I think veggie grill is a great thing. You know, it's like, if you go get the kale colossus salad, that's fantastic. But what happens to me is I go there and it's like, well, I get the- Buffalo wings.

I ate the kale salad at home. Like when I go to veggie grill, I want to get the buffalo wings. Exactly. And it's like, well, I get the, I ate the kale salad at home. Like when I go to veggie grill, I want to get the Buffalo wings and it's like, oh, it's vegan. So how bad is it? But you know, that's denial because I know that that is not a good choice for myself. The other thing is, is now that they're so big, their nutritional information is online and their kale salad has 56 grams of fat. That's more fat than I eat in a whole week. Does it really? Wow. 56 grams of fat. That's more fat than I eat in a whole week. Does it really? Yes. Well, I mean, for us, it's more like a once in a while thing because we eat really healthy at home.

But if somebody's eating there on a regular basis and thinking that that's healthy, they need to look deeper. And you guys are slim and you exercise. And I'm guessing that you're not food addicts. And I'm a food addict. And sugar's addictive, oil's addictive, salt's addictive, and all three combined are more addictive. And so, see, what resonated with me when I heard your story is you were an addict and you were able to change that. And that was inspiring to me. And so was I. Just we had different substances.

That's all. Right. Well, I don't know. I might be a food addict. I don't know. I mean, that's a big subject that I want to get into. But all right, so you're at this crossroads and you go to this place in San Diego and they say- It was July 6, 2003, and the cab dropped me off. But first I had them take me to 7-Eleven with a

Slurpee in one hand and a Dr. Pepper in the other. And it was the first time that there were people in general and doctors and nurses specifically explaining that what we eat has a profound effect not only on how we look and feel, but what diseases we acquire and what diseases we can reverse. And even though I wasn't eating animal products or dairy or drinking alcohol, everything else I was eating was inflammatory and acidic, all the junk food and the caffeine and the flour and the oil. And they explained that for disease to not exist, we had to be alkaline and we had to eat real food from a plant, whole food, not processed food. And so they gave you basically fruits and vegetables, some seed cheese, things like that, very sparse, very low calorie. But it was amazing because people would come there every Friday and give testimonials, people that had graduated from the program, things with lupus and AIDS and brain cancers and all kinds of diseases that had gotten well. And I'm like, well, this is going to be easy because whatever,

I'll just do whatever they told me to do. Right. And at the time, were the doctors saying like, this is a crisis, you need to get this removed surgically immediately? Or they said you have some time and that gave you a buffer to go look into a different way of doing it? They say nothing because they don't even want you to talk about your health problems. They call them health opportunities. You don't talk about it. They don't believe that you should give them voice. And they use other means to get well there, which the food is primary.

But actually, they didn't say anything about it because we weren't allowed to discuss our condition. They just believed that the food would heal you. And it did. I mean, I did other things. I believe in God and I prayed and I did visualization. But really, like Dr. McDougall says, it's the food. Right.

So this is essentially rehab. Yeah, food rehab. Exactly. So did you sleep in a dorm? No, we had private rooms. But it's so funny because the time I went, I don't know anything about sports, but maybe you would. It seems like the whole team San Diego Chargers were there because people go there just to drop weight in a hurry. A man will drop about 20 pounds there and a woman 10 pounds. And I can't recognize famous athletes, but everybody's like,

that's so-and-so and he plays this position. I'm like, okay. Because people do use it also for- To go drop weight. Right. So essentially what they're doing is educating you about the nexus between what you eat and your health, correct? And their version was raw. They didn't cook any of their food. And so that was one take on it, but they didn't use any oils or any salts or any sugars. And so that was the first foray I had into the world of what Dr. Goldhammer calls SOS-free, sugar-free, oil-free, and salt-free.

And was it a plant-based program? Oh, absolutely. Or you were bringing your plant? Oh, no. So everybody who's going there is getting on the plant-based bandwagon. Oh, it's 100% vegan plant-based. Absolutely. And so how long were you there?

I was there for one week, and then I took another week at their other campus in Austin, Texas. So I never actually really finished the program because I had since found a place that I resonate with more called True North in Santa Rosa, which kind of does the same thing, but they cook some of their food and they have medical doctors on staff there like Dr. Clapper, who's been doing this for 40 years. Yeah. True North is amazing. Explain to people what True North is. True North is, I have a song about it. Can I sing it? Yeah, go ahead. Please sing. Oh my God. This is so, I didn't know. Let's start it. Ba-dum-ba-dum-bum, bum-bum, ba-dum-ba-dum-bum, bum-bum, ba-dum-ba-dum-bum, ba-dum-ba-dum-bum, ba-dum-ba-dum-bum, ba-dum-bum. True North is where I'd rather be.

SOS free is the life for me. Every meal all we eat is green. Where the hell will I get my dopamine? Ba-dum-ba-dum, ba-go. Hammer is the dock to see if you want to live addiction free. Oh, my God. I haven't sang this in so long. I didn't know.

What's the next two lines? The pressure is on. Oh, I didn't know. What's the next two lines? Oh, gosh. This is so embarrassing. We'll come back to it. You can see that this is live, but it's a really great song that I was singing at Healthy Taste of LA, but I did write a song about true noise.

That's awesome. I wish I had known. Now they know it's really live because I totally spaced on the live. Dr. Clapper is really cool. I like him. So tell people a little bit about him. Oh, I got the next line. He will tell you not to eat that crap before you know it.

You're out of the pleasure trap. No food. Bad mood. that crap before you know it you're out of the pleasure trap no food bad mood the fast won't last food was my life goodbye to the strife true north we are there okay sorry all right topping charts people are like if one of those million people sign off now, you probably know why. Probably because of my singing. Does Doug Lyle teach at True North? Absolutely. Or is the Pleasure Trap guy?

Absolutely. The authors of the Pleasure Trap, Dr. Doug Lyle and Dr. Alan Goldhammer, both teach there. Goldhammer is the founder. It's been in business for 30 years. And Dr. Lyle also works at McDougal. He comes there every Saturday for a two-hour lecture and sees patients. So what True North is, it's a medically supervised therapeutic water-only fasting center. But that doesn't mean you have to fast on water. It doesn't

mean you have to fast on juice. You can eat there. You can eat the delicious SOS-free, sugar, oil, salt-free food prepared by Chef Ramses Bravo, and still get well, still reverse your heart disease, diabetes, autoimmune disease, get help with your food addiction and obesity just by eating the food. But water fasting, what it does is it reboots your brain chemistry and your palate so that natural food tastes good faster. So how does the water fast work? How long are you doing that? Well, the longest they fast people is 40 days. 40 days on water?

I know. Seriously? I know. It's hard. I've never done one day, but I've seen patients fast. It depends on their condition. It depends on how severe the condition. Exactly.

Because they have doctors monitoring. They'll take your blood and your urine. They test you every day. And if it shows something unfavorable, they'll take you off the fast. So I'd say a lot of people fast for 10 days. And for every day you fast, you need another day to refeed. So don't think that if you want to fast for 10 days, you can go there 10 days. If you fast for 10 days, you got to go there for 20 days. So it's all medically supervised? Absolutely. I mean, how is it just water? Or juice. But if you're on juice, it's not quite

as serious. I mean, the doctors will still check on you twice a day, not if you're eating, if you're water fasting or juice fasting. And also realize you may go there with the intention of fasting, but once they get your lab work or get to know you, they might decide, like for me, I'm kind of an anxious person and they say, we're not fasting her because we don't want to be called in the middle of the night when she's freaking out. So I've never, I've been there five times and I've never fasted. I actually work there now and I will be there from December 1st to January 2nd for almost five weeks. I'm what they call a guest chef and instructor. And it's really fun because in the holidays we get to eat. So I'm stuck on the, I'm stuck on the water fast.

So, I mean, what kind of, uh, not what kind of water, but what kind of illness would somebody have where the staff would say you're a candidate for doing this? High blood pressure, heart disease, diabetes. These are the most common ones I see people fasting for. People sometimes with autoimmune conditions like osteoarthritis, rheumatoid arthritis, these things respond really well to water fasting. Interesting. But most people have high blood pressure. Right. Well, on the standard American diet, they do, sure.

But if somebody's coming there, they're in dire need of help, right? They're probably coming from that kind of place. I mean, you would be the exception to be repeatedly going back. You'd be surprised. The first time I went there actually as a patient, I saw kids, well, I call them kids because I'm older,

but people in their 20s that were just there just to get help now so that they didn't follow in their parents' footsteps and learn a health promoting diet. And maybe they were addicted to Mountain Dew or Cheetos and just trying to not even necessarily overweight. So not everybody that comes there is sick. Some people, it actually, we use it as a vacation because you get to hear lectures by Dr. Clapper and Dr. Lyle and Dr. Goldhammer. And, you know, I think it's fun, but, you know. I love Dr. Lyle's approach to kind of how to talk about being on a plant-based diet in a way that there's that paradigm where, you know, when you tell somebody, you know, the joke, you know, how do you know if someone's vegan? Well, don't worry, they'll tell you, right? Exactly. And how that can be off-putting or sound condescending or as if somebody's taking a moral high ground and all of that. And how do you kind of navigate that to sort of convey this is what I'm doing, but in a non-threatening way that doesn't make other people uncomfortable or whatever. And his approach is really fascinating about how he tells you how you can deflate that. Right. I believe he has a DV that's called Getting Along Without Going Along,

where he uses what he calls the SEEM strategy, S-E-E-M, where he tells people, you know, well, you know, it seems to be working for me. I'm just trying this out. And he's very non-confrontational. Unfortunately, Rich, I'm more like Dr. McDougall. I am one of these in-your-face people. Yeah, he's in your face.

Yeah, I'm sort of more, kind of I'm between Lyle and McDougall, but I've been I've been vegan for 36 years and it's like seeing what I've seen, having lost every member of my family to preventable diseases. It's like, just do it, people wake up, you know? Right. I think, uh, yeah. When you've been sort of, you know, shouting from the mountaintops for so many years and, and, you know, batting your head against the wall and in frustration because people aren't, aren't seeing what you're seeing so clearly that it's going to inevitably lead you to a more aggressive, frustrated place. But, but like what Doug Lyle says is sort of, um, you know,

like, Oh yeah, I read, I don't know. You know, I read this book, this fireman guy and something about his firehouse and they're eating like this. I don't know. It seemed good, but it probably doesn't work, but you know, like the way he kind of... It is such a great approach. You're right about the vegans and the moral high ground. Dr. Goldhammer often says the reason so many vegans get headaches is because we wear our halos too tight. Yeah, exactly. And that's a big problem. It is. You're right. It turns people off. And I'm trying, I'm really trying. So just to go back a little bit and just get a little personal.

So share with us which family members you lost and how that impacted your life. My brother died just three weeks ago of pancreatic cancer. And now you can say, oh, pancreatic cancer. But listen, what are the risk factors of pancreatic cancer? Being a male, insulin dependent over 60. My brother was 61, but he was also 300 pounds. A medical doctor who had no medical training. I mean, who had

nutrition training. A doctor with no medical training. Oh, that would be... You're right. No nutritional training at medical school, and he was a food addict. So that's what caused him to be 300 pounds and to be...

I told you to tell your cell phone off. Don't worry, just forget it. Yeah, just leave it alone. So would you say that food addiction runs in your family, though? Absolutely. Okay. Absolutely. And through generations?

At least through the last two or three. That's a very snappy tune. Yeah, I don't know what it is. If I could figure out where my phone was, I'd go get it. I don't think I've heard that one before. So just three weeks ago, wow, what kind of doctor was he? He was an anesthesiologist. And it's funny because anesthesia, thank you, literally means without feeling.

And that's what you do with any addiction. You numb yourself so that you don't have to feel anything. Yeah. So it's really sad. And, you know, I mean, I'm 53 and I lost my parents by the time I was 40 of basically preventable diseases. My dad of heart disease and my mom of, you know, she basically had dementia, and she had everything, you know, pre-diabetes. She was morbidly obese. I mean, technically the death certificate said bowel obstruction, but, you know, it was all these other factors leading up to it.

Nobody listened to me, and that's why I guess I am a little bit aggressive now. And it's funny because people always say, well, you know, it runs in my family, diabetes, heart disease. And, you know, if anybody that read the China study knows that genetics only loads the gun. It's your diet and lifestyle that pulls the trigger. And when you change your nutrition, you can change the expression of your genes. Right. I feel like that's sort of the easy out. Everyone just says, well, it's my genetic history. And that's partially informed and the responsibility of the doctor to help empower the patient because it's just like, well, there's nothing I can do about it. I guess I'll take these pills or I'm just going to, this is the fate that I'm going to suffer rather than taking an approach, which you had the wherewithal to do to empower yourself to make these changes, right? Absolutely.

All right, turn your phone off. I think also, you know, we all have that power by making the choice with what we choose to put in our mouth, you know, every time we eat, every meal. Yeah, of course. I think that every bite you take either prevents disease or causes it. I really believe that. Right. Well, nothing's static. You're either moving in a good direction or in a bad direction, but you're never sort of just neutral, right? So,

so you have this revelation, you go down to San Diego and, uh, and this is where you decide everything is going to change. And it wasn. And it was 10 years ago, right? Yeah, it was actually a little bit over 10 years ago. That's when my life started was at 43. You were about that age when your new life began. Yeah, 40, but it was a couple of years after that. Right. Yeah, 2006, 2007?

No, I don't know. Yeah, 2007. Yeah, I never dreamed I was going to become a chef. Actually, what happened was- What were you doing at the time? I was an activity director at a retirement home, and I was working like 60 hours a week playing poker and blackjack and exercising with people that were in their 80s, 90s, and 100s. And I was really seeing what a difference diet made

because even at that age, the people that ate healthier had less wrinkles, had less of these diseases that we see so common now. And I went to culinary school just because the diet that they taught us at Oppenheim Health Institute was pretty boring. I mean, it was wheatgrass, it was rejuvelac, it was seed cheese, and, you know, it was just kind of, and I figured if I'm going to eat this way, it better tastes better. So that's when I went to culinary school.

And where did you go to school? I went to Living Light Culinary Arts Institute. And it's a good school, but again, knowing what I know now, a lot of agave and coconut oil and fancy salt, but I still, I learned stuff. And so how does it begin? This sort of, now you're this big celebrity chef. I wish. World famous. Oh yeah, I wish. Legend in my own mind. What do you mean, how does it begin?

Well, so do you start cooking for private clients or do you go work at a restaurant or- You know, I was working at a restaurant for about four years. It was on La Brea near Pink's Hot Dogs. It was called Sante. And I was actually the executive vegan pastry chef at a non-vegan restaurant. But I just didn't tell them the desserts were vegan. I just didn't tell them I wasn't using sugar, that I was sweetening everything with dates. And I didn't tell them that I wasn't using oil.

I just didn't tell people because food can taste really good that way. But a lot of times if you tell people what's missing, then it doesn't taste good, you know? So the restaurant closed the same year my book came out, 2011. I've really been on the road for almost three years now just doing different conferences. I just got back from Indiana with your friend Rip. We did one in the heartland. So that's kind of what I do full time. When I'm in town, I teach a program called the Unprocessed 30- Challenge with John Pierre, the fitness guru. And he loves you. He said,

hello. I'm trying to get him on the podcast. I have to ask him a million times and he will not commit to a date. He's never in town is why you have to do him on the phone. But I was like, just give me a date. Okay. He's going to be in town on November 3rd for Healthy Tastes of LA. So if I'm in town, then we'll do it Taste of LA. That's right. We're around then. If I'm in town, then we'll do it. Okay, jump here. Put that on your calendar. He's not listening.

He's out saving animals. I know. He's awesome. Cool. So your book is called Unprocessed, How to Achieve Vibrant Health in Your Ideal Weight. I just happened to bring you and Julia a copy. That's great. Thank you.

You're welcome. And that came out in 2011. Right. I've got another one in the works that's almost ready and some a copy. That's great. Thank you. You're welcome. And that came out in 2011. Right. I've got another one in the works that's almost ready and some DVDs. There's, you know, now we're in this place where, I mean,

you were saying like several years ago there weren't any books. There was no, you know, forks over knives and all this kind of thing and you're trying to figure it out and, you know,

you went vegetarian, plant-based so long ago before any of this. You must have been like a pariah back then. Yeah, you know, it's funny because like you said, like there was nothing to eat. I mean, yes, if you were on a whole food plant-based diet, the same foods existed then as they do now, but we didn't have milk in a box. You know, we didn't, I don't even know if we had soy milk

powder in 1977. So it was like, you know, it was really interesting. And there were really, there was no internet. There was no way to connect with people like now with meetups and Yahoo groups and things like that. So now is the best time for people to be doing this. And now there's a million books on how to eat a plant-based diet and cookbooks and all this sort of thing. is that you're really approaching the idea of food from an addictive point of view and the idea of emotional eating and managing and dealing with and overcoming cravings and all these kind of habitual patterns that enslave people to poor choices and ultimately poor health. So what, you know, what are some of those strategies? I mean, I think it's important to, for people that

really grapple with the idea that, you know, maybe their choices really are addictions think it's important for people to really grapple with the idea that maybe their choices really are addictions. And it's hard to look in the mirror and accept that. And I'm not saying everybody has that, but I think it's more. I think it's more prevalent than we realize because food addiction, I think, is poorly understood, especially in the vegan movement where most of our leaders are slim and trim even before they adopted a vegan diet. And they don't have to deal with this particular brain issue or biogenetic disease, however you want to call addiction. And, you know, food is the only addiction that you can't escape from. Because if you're an alcoholic or cocaine or cigarettes, you can go to rehab for these substances

and then you can live the rest of your life happily and healthily without ever touching them. But you can't not eat. And one of the best things that's happened this year and a few years ago is a couple of books that came out by non-vegans actually that really helped this cause. So in 2009, Dr. David Kessler, the former head of the FDA under Clinton, wrote a book called The End of Overeating. And this year on February 26th, the Pulitzer Prize winning author Michael Moss

wrote a book called Salt, Sugar, and Fat, How the Food Giants Hooked Us. And the books are different and similar. But one of the commonalities in both these books is they explain that processed food was designed to be addictive. That when the processed food industry became an empire, let's say around the late 50s after World War II, when the country became more affluent, women were going back to work. They wanted to spend less time in the kitchen and things like Betty Crocker and Swanson's TV dinner were born. What they don't tell you is that they got the best doctors and brain scientists. And this is science. When you eat these foods, you're eating a science project behind closed doors to figure out the exact combination of sugar, fat, and salt to addict the average person's brain chemistry to

their products. So when you see a commercial on television for Lay's potato chips that say, we bet you can't eat just one, you can't. Right. Because sugar is addictive, whether you call it maple syrup, agave, or barley malt, or brown rice syrup. And salt is addictive, whether it's Himalayan or Celtic salt. And fat is addictive, whether it's from a piece of cheese or a pig's butt or from a nut.

It just is. It doesn't mean you can't have some of it depending on how you deal with these addictions. But the point is, is if you eat processed food, and again, I don't mean to bat, I'm not trying to bash all these wonderful vegan companies that produce processed food, but the problem is, is sugar, fat, and salt is just as addictive when it's packaged in a vegan organic gluten-free product as when it's in Kraft macaroni and cheese. It just is. I didn't make up the science. And so if you're a person that struggles with this, you need to know this information. And so people come to me, well,

you mean they can never have a piece of bread or this or that? You can have anything you want because the vegan diet is not a court ordered program yet. It should be though for many people. But the thing is, is I always work with people at the level they want to work with me. And the thing is, it depends what your goals are. I don't know if you saw, you guys saw a movie called Flight with Denzel Washington. Yes, I did. A friend of mine wrote that movie. Oh my God. Would you please tell this friend that that movie, I use that in my program. I can tell whether or not I'm able to work with a person by how they answer five questions based on that movie.

That movie was about a man. It wasn't just about a plane crash. It was about a man with multiple addictions. It's a story of addiction. It has nothing to do with the plane crash is incidental. Right. It's like five minutes of the movie. But the thing is, I thought that was the best portrayal of addiction I've ever seen.

And it wasn't until the scene in the hotel room where he swoops his hand. And I said, wow, even with all I've done, even though I'm, you know, I've lost 55 pounds in my brain, I am still an addict. And it really made me delve into this stuff from the more of the brain science standpoint. Yeah, I agree. I've said the same thing to you when I saw it. It gave me the chills. It creeped me. It was so realistic and it took me to that place in such a palpable way that it freaked me out. That's how you kind of know if you're an addict because like my husband, he's not an addict and he looked and he goes, oh, good movie. And then

went on his good movie. What do you mean? You didn't, you know, it's like, so who wrote that movie? John Gatins. Well, just tell him he's changed many lives with that movie because we use it to teach now. Well, good. I will let him know. I always said I know when I see him next.

I always said, I wish I could tell the writer. It was like the best movie I've ever seen. This is fantastic. It's quite well done. But I'm also the guy who, when I saw Leaving Las Vegas, I was just like, oh, he's having a good time. I'm like, I'm right with him. Everyone else is leaving the movie horrified.

That's funny. That's funny. But yeah, I mean, I think back to salt, sugar, fat and Michael Moss's book and the idea of science and money collaborating to specifically create these foods that activate the pleasure centers in your brain. I mean, I would go so far as to submit that we're hardwired to devour those foods just because from, you know, this is just, I don't know anything, but I wouldn't, I wouldn't be surprised if it's embedded in our DNA just because if we're, we're, you're growing up in the, you know, ancient times and you're, you know, food is

far and few between, and you come across something that's salty or sweet or, you know, high in fat and it triggers, it's like, I, I'm going to eat as much as this as I can, because I don't know when I'm going to come across this again. And when that happened to our ancestors, they could eat as much as they could, because it wasn't going to be available. So like in the case of nuts, or even fruit, these things were seasonal, we were nomadic. So even if they ate a bunch of nuts or avocado, so what? Then there was going to be famine. But see, we haven't had a famine in this country for a really, really long time. And so the food scientists knew that we were genetically

hardwired to prefer the taste of sugar, fat, and salt. And that's why they created foods that were hyperpalatable. They created this bliss point in our brain. And if we use the whole food versions of these, for example, you know, once you stop eating so much salt, things like celery or Swiss char tastes incredibly salty. So when you're getting it in the whole food, it's not a problem. Or if you're getting it from a little bit of avocado or nuts of seeds, it's not a problem. It's not a 4,000 calorie a pound fiberless disease promoting liquid like oil. If you're getting your sweets satisfied from fruit, it's different than when you're processing it. You can't notice the difference though until you clean up your diet and then you go and you go back and you eat one of those things and you realize how incredibly salty it is.

Or I'll have times where I'll wake up in the middle of the night and have to go drink water. Like part, like you don't, you know, it's like, then it becomes very noticeable just how, how much sodium is in these foods unnoticeably for the most part. You know, I use this and I don't promote milk or drink milk, but I use this analogy because many of us did grow up drinking milk. And I remember we grew up drinking whole milk. And then at one point, I forget when it was, everybody had to switch to nonfat milk because they said that was better. And at first we go, ooh, this is terrible.

But then we got used to the nonfat milk. And if somebody tried to give us whole milk, it's like, oh, no, now this is terrible. And it's the same thing. Sugar-free, oil-free, salt-free food, if you've been eating a diet full of sugar, fat, and salt, isn't going to taste so good. But that's why if you go to a place like True North and get used to it, or as we say, neuroadapt, then when you go back and eat the other stuff, it's like, that doesn't taste good anymore. Right. I mean, there's a lot of people who would say, I can get on board with the idea of eating a plant-based diet, but the whole no oil thing is too crazy.

I just can't do it. And I'm just in full candor. We try to eat low oil, but we're not as far down the spectrum as you are. Okay. Well, first of all, I'm looking at these two gorgeous people, for those of you that can't see, physically very fit and beautiful and on the slender side. And I'm a little porky pig if I let myself eat oil. That's not true.

Well, not now, but I mean, you're seeing somebody that's 125, but in my brain, I still weigh 180 because once you're fat, your brain- Is that where you maxed out at 180? 180, yeah. And as a vegan. So the point is, is you can be a really, really unhealthy vegan. So does everybody have to go no oil? Again, it depends what your goals are. Remember that a lot of the patients that I get to work with and cook for are referred to me by Dr. Esselstyn that already have advanced heart disease. And he believes that the diet that you need to reverse these diseases are a little bit more stringent than the ones you need to necessarily prevent it. So if somebody comes to my class, that's 22 years old, that's exercising, I don't necessarily say, hey, you can never eat sugar, oil, salt again. I want

to give them the information on it so that they know. But out of sugar, oil, and salt, you could argue that oil ostensibly might be the worst. This is what they talk about at Forks Over Knives, because it does injure these endothelial cells we have, which are the life jacket of our circulatory system. And there is some pretty compelling research that a meal with a single drop of olive oil impairs the blood flow for about six hours. So if that blood flow is impaired in your penis, then that's not good, right? So that's how I get people to do it because heart disease does basically start in the penis. By the time a man presents to his urologist with impotence, he's already got advanced heart disease.

So does everybody have to eat no oil? Not necessarily, but you have to understand that it's not a whole food. It's not found in nature. The olive is found in nature. It's 400 calories a pound with fiber and water and vitamins and minerals and phytochemicals and antioxidants and micronutrients. But when you process it into olive oil, you're taking a 400 calorie poundorie-pound food and making it into a 4,000-calorie-pound food without fiber or nutrients. You just have to understand it's just a processed food. And throughout most of human history, we didn't

eat oil. There's no oil found in nature. If you look up the word junk food in the dictionary, Webster's Dictionary, it says a high-calorie food with no nutrients. To me, that's the perfect definition of oil and sugar. So again, it's not like you're bad if you eat these things, but I want people to understand that it's not as good as just, say, eating kale. Let's put it that way. Right. But if you need to have a little oil to eat the kale, then I might say, hey, go ahead. And of all the oils, even though you don't like them at all, which is the less evil for you?

I know what she's going to say. What? Well, they're all super high in saturated fat and in calories, and they're all very nutrient poor. So, you know, which kind of right now, you know, there's for some crazy reason, coconut oil is being hailed as like this magical superfood. oil is being hailed as like this magical superfood. And, you know, I don't know, you know, I can't say that I'm an expert on any of it, but it's certainly, you know, it's a saturated fat that is nutrient 92% saturated fat higher than lard. So that would probably be my last choice would be the coconut oil. You know, and when these paleo people say, oh yeah, you know, eat coconut oil. Last time I checked cavemen didn't have access to coconuts. and if they did, they couldn't open it.

And when I see these paleo recipes with agave and coconut flour and coconut oil, really? I mean, this is what cavemen ate? I don't think so. Also with cooking, if you're looking at which oils hold up at high heat, the coconut holds up and doesn't turn carcinogenic. That's true. The oxidation point. I would go the other way.

So coconut oil would be my number one choice because I'm very connected to nature and coconut is the milk of Mother Earth. And I think if you're not overusing it, which I use oil very, very sparingly, that actually would be for me. That's my experience. That's the way to do it, use it sparingly. Again, I would argue that you don't find coconut oil in nature. If you found the coconut, you would have a heck of a time opening it.

Better using just the coconut meat. Using the coconut meat or using avocado. I love avocado. Anything that other chefs can do with oil, I can do with nuts, seeds, and avocado and whole meat coconut. I mean, my food tastes good. It's not like it tastes bad. I brought you something there with nuts that's still a high-calorie snack, but it's got nutrients. But you still use nuts. I don't eat them anymore because with my addiction, nuts are slippery slow.

But for people that can eat them, absolutely. I'd much rather have people eat nuts, seeds, and avocado than that can eat them, absolutely. I'd much rather have people eat nuts, seeds, and avocado than oil. Absolutely. And avocado. I eat tons of avocado. Yeah, absolutely. Well, you know, when you think about it, avocado is only 750 calories a pound compared to nuts and seeds, which are about 3000 and oil, which is 4000. So you can have way more avocado and avocado tastes so much better if you ask me than oil. I mean, you know, you can massage your kale in the avocado and you're dressing with a little lemon juice. It's delicious.

But if you're somebody who is being, you know, referred to you from Dr. Esselstyn because you've either had a heart attack or you're on the verge of a heart attack. You're on no oil. No oil and no salt and no nuts or seeds. He lets them have like one to two tablespoons of flax seeds and chia seeds a day.

And also realize with your athleticism, you can eat a lot more calories than the average American who's sedentary. So the impact of having a few tablespoons of oil for you guys is a lot less than somebody that's- No. And you see what Rich looks like before he's racing. And if he wasn't eating any calories, he would not be well. So it's- I need the dense calories for sure. But again, it comes down to personal responsibility. You have to know who you are, what your genetics are, what is your lifestyle? What are your goals? Are you overweight? You know, what age are you? And then, you know, you have to use your intuition. I mean, there are times in my

life that I really need some, you know, salt. I either need it in seaweed or I need it in Celtic sea salt. And I know that it's feeding my body. I can feel it. So it's not like, but I'm not talking about Morton's. I'm not talking about the popcorn at the movie with like a half a container of salt poured on it. And you're not talking about eating mass quantities of processed food. No, no processed food, as little as possible. And I'm not an advocate of fake meats. Just not. Me neither. And, you know, but I am an advocate of everybody being, you know,

where they're at and being honored where they're at. So if some of these things help people to make the shift along the journey, then I think it's great. I agree. And a lot of these things are what we call transition foods. But I've got to tell you, I've known a few people that have been vegan for 30 years that haven't transitioned.

They're still transitioning? They haven't transitioned yet. It hasn't changed. Well, it's easier now, like we were saying before, to get stuck on, I mean, the stuff tastes so good. Like you just, you start and then you're like, I'll just stay here eating this stuff. No, I mean, we have a great friend,

new friend in our life who read Rich's book, our friend June. Um, and she has a food forest in her backyard and she's also a raw vegan chef. And, you know, she, um, inspires us and raises us to, you know, a better level of purity and stuff, but you know, it's, it's a process and, you know, we have four kids and she has four kids too. Anyway, we're not growing all our own food yet. Yeah. Well, I think the thing is, is the, you know, it's like, it's a constantly evolving process and you can always do better and we're learning and getting better ourselves. We're still transitioning into a better and better version of what we're doing

and we're learning as we go. But back to, there were two things I wanted to get back to, but one, one is on the salt tip. I think that, and I'm interested to hear what you think, that, you know, sort of sprinkling a little bit of salt on top of your food. Yeah. Obviously. Is way better than cooking with it. Yeah. Preferably some sort of salt with a higher mineral content in it than like your Morton's or whatever.

No, never that table salt. You should never even buy it. But that's really not the problem. It's all the salt that's in the foods that are processed. That is way, that's what's out of control. Right. Because Americans eat over 92% of their calories from animal products and processed food,

less than 10% from fruits and vegetables. And there's some vegans that don't eat any animal products that are eating all their calories from processed food. And we actually, Americans get most of our salt from processed food, not from the salt shaker. There's actually more salt hidden in bread than even in potato chips. And so we habituate to a very high level of salt. The more salt we eat, the more salt we need to feel satisfied on that level. So like Dr. McDougall says that sugar and salt are scapegoats, and he has no problem with people sprinkling them on the surface of the food where the taste them on the surface of the food

where the taste buds on the tip of the tongue for salt and sugar can taste it. That's what I do. Yeah, and as a chef, I tell people the same thing with oil. If they insist on it, I say, okay, just don't cook with it. Taste it, and then add. Yeah, I never use salt during the cooking process. Right, because it dissipates. And you put it in at the end.

Exactly. Right at the end before you serve it. Right. And it sounds crazy when you say, oh, bread has more salt than potato chips, but it's because the salt on the potato chips is on the surface. It impacts your tongue immediately and you taste it as opposed to inside where you're not even tasting it. But I noticed like, even at Whole Foods, if I eat at the salad bar at Whole Foods, I leave feeling lousy. There's so much oil in those foods't eat there. It's way too oily. And salty. So I'll be parched like I'm dehydrated and I'll feel lethargic and kind of lousy afterwards. And I was

like, wow, this is whole foods. They should be, you know, I know now they have like the E2 bar and they're starting to do more and more of that. SHS, HSS, SH, I can't say it. HSH, health starts here. If it's got a green and an orange thing, it won't have oil, it won't have sugar, it'll have low salt. That's good. So some of the whole foods are doing that. They're starting to, but it's not all of them. You're right, it's not all of them. And so, AJ, where do you stand on wheat?

Well, I think that if people eat wheat, they should definitely eat it organic, because soy, corn, and wheat are three of the most heavily genetically modified crops. So if somebody, I personally don't eat it just because, you know, when you chef for so many people, you know some of them are going to be allergic to wheat and some of them gluten. So instead of developing recipes where I have to have options, I just do everything gluten-free and I don't eat it. But I don't have a problem with people eating it.

Again, it's one of those things that you don't really eat whole wheat. I mean, you think you do, but, you know. Even though it says whole wheat, it's not really whole wheat. Well, I mean, let me put it this way. Like when we eat rice, we're eating the whole rice, but when you're eating wheat, it's usually in the form of some kind of a flour. So anytime you grind the fruit down or process it, you're making it a little bit more calorie rich and nutrient poor, just going by the calorie density principle. So most of the people I work with are overweight and need to lose weight. So, you know, it's one of those things that for some people doesn't work.

Well, I think also, even if it is organic wheat, for example, our soil has been so depleted that the nutrient value of the organic wheat, even if it's stamped organic, really isn't very much. And you know, we seem to lock into wheat, but there's so many grains out there that have been around for centuries, like millet and teff and amaranth.

I want to get people excited about these too and not just focus on the wheat. Yeah, I've been really interested in developing a really good pizza crust, you know, because I've, you know, perfected the sauces and all the veggies and everything that we can do on the top. And I don't even, I'm not even,

I was using vegan, you know, packaged cheese, you know, last year, and I'm not using it anymore. I'm just leaving it off. I'm making a homemade version. And also nut milks, I make my own. I never buy the box anymore. It only takes two seconds. I know.

And then you know what's in it. You take a tablespoon of almond butter and two cups of water, you got almond milk. No packaging, no carrageen, and no salt. And it's cheaper, and it tastes better, too. But I think it would be really, really great to develop a chia seed, chia hemp, some pizza crust. Maybe it's a barley cracker base or something, but I'm really interested in working on that. So if you have any tips to send my way.

I like using polenta as a pizza crust. That's interesting. I think that makes the most delicious pizza crust ever. That's a great idea. I love it. You've got a whole grain, and you can bake it to almost crisp, and I think it works great. And so how would you do that?

Just make the polenta, but don't put any cheese in it. Well, you know, I use Miyoko Shinner's book, Artisan Vegan Cheese, and like you, I make my own cheese. Not everybody's going to do that. That's so amazing. But things like cream cheese, I mean, you know, I use Miyoko Shinner's book, Artisan Vegan Cheese, and like you, I make my own cheese. Not everybody's going to do that. That's so amazing. But things like cream cheese, I mean, you know, you could take a cup of almonds or cashews with some water and a couple tablespoons of yogurt, and you blend it in the blender and put it on your counter, and the next day you have cream cheese. I mean, that's easy.

But it's yogurt. But wait, but yogurt. She makes vegan yogurt. She makes her own yogurt. Oh, vegan yogurt. Oh, yeah. No, she makes her own yogurt. Or you can buy coconut yogurt, soy yogurt, rice yogurt, or almond yogurt at the store.

You only need like two tablespoons as a starter. Okay. Yeah. Interesting. No, non-dairy. Yeah. Right. That's great.

So going back to your personal story though, so you have these polyps. Yeah. So what happens? Oh, yeah. So I had all these polyps and they, you know, even back then they had the technology. They took a lot of pictures and they said to come back and I'm like, yeah, thanks. Sure. Okay.

But even back then, they had the technology. They took a lot of pictures, and they said to come back. And I'm like, yeah, thanks, sure. Okay, so what happened was is I did come back six months later, and I asked for a repeat sigmoidoscopy. I wanted a colonoscopy, but they said because it wasn't my mother that died of colon cancer, it was only an uncle and a grandmother that wasn't a first-degree relative, that they would only do a sigmoidoscopy, which didn't go all the way up. But they repeated it six months later.

And it was the same doctor, and all the polyps were gone. And he said, my colon was clean, clear, pink, and vascular like a newborn baby. And he kept poking me looking for polyps. He goes, where are they? Where are they? I go, what do you mean? He goes, where are the polyps? I have pictures of these. This one was 25 centimeters, and it was here.

They're all gone. Where did you go have surgery? And I said, I didn't have surgery. He goes, well, then where are the polyps? And I said, well, I just changed my diet. And he said, that's impossible. And he stormed out of the room and there was one of the assisting doctors who happened to be from India in the room.

And she looked around when she was sure nobody was looking or listening. She goes, I believe you. That's interesting that you had that experience. I don't know if you know, but I had a cyst in my neck wow I think I remember reading about that and I chose the same path

I just wasn't going to get my neck cut I know and so I actually worked with an Ayurvedic doctor who you know assisted me in healing my body healing myself through diet and herbs

and everybody always asked me they said you know how come you didn't go back to the surgeons that you you know I got two or three opinions from surgeons at, you know, big hospitals. And they said, I absolutely would have to have my neck cut. And afterwards, people said, well, did you go back to the doctor? And, you know, I didn't even bother because I knew that they would create whatever in their mind.

They would define my experience. Medical miracle. Yeah. So I just, I knew what had happened and it was, my experience was more important than me. You know, I didn't want anybody to sort of take away from that or dim that or try to infiltrate that. If they would, they would have just come up with some reason. Yeah, some reason. They would have said, oh, well, this happened because of that or, you know, and I just, I knew what happened and I had the direct experience myself.

And so I just. And also they didn't cure it. So that's, they don't like that. You know, it's funny because even things that have been, that I've heard said could never be healed with a plant-based diet have. And I'll give you one example. Yeah, I want to hear more than one example. Okay, there's lots, but I've been running this program with John Pierre called the

Unprocessed 30-Day Challenge. And we just now put it on DVD for people that can't come to LA, that people come to our house for 30 days for meals, instructions, and all kinds of support. We had this one young lady, Shada, and yes, she was overweight. And the doctor, she had been to a bariatric doctor, and she was about to have bariatric surgery. And he said, for you to ever lose weight, it would take a Herculean effort, which was really great for her self-esteem. But the thing was, is she had a torn tendon in her foot. She had injured it exercising. And the whole time I knew her, the whole year she was losing weight, she was wearing this boot. She had gone to four doctors, orthopedic surgeons, had MRIs and all said, this will never heal. You need to have surgery to fix this. And after a year on this

sugar-free, oil-free, salt-free, plant-based diet, and then taking the weight off, the tendon actually grew together. It was healed. I mean, and this is all, four doctors said, no, a torn tendon never could heal, ever, ever, ever. You have to have surgery and it healed. Wow. So that's kind of, it was,

I didn't think that would heal either. I mean, I said to her, no, of course it's not going to heal. You know, you're high triglycerides, you're high cholesterol. We can take care of that in your weight, but no, this doesn't heal a torn tendon. That never happened before.

Yeah, that's a totally unique one. Yeah, and then we, so, you know, I've seen a lot of stuff happen on this diet. It's pretty cool. Lifestyle is a better word. But, you know, the body is, you know, a complete miracle. Yeah, when you give it what it needs. Yeah, and the thing is, is, you know, it operates in perfection. So when you support it, it can heal itself and it can rejuvenate.

That's what's so exciting to me about going to places like Optimum Health and working in places like True North is you see the miraculous every day. And you read about it every day. And you're on shows like this or just websites and blogs. It's happening more and more. And I think that's why more people are coming to this way of eating. I really thank Brian Wendell for doing the movie Forks Over Knives because I became a vegan for ethical reasons, which I think is the reason many people start out or maybe more people

become vegan. And it's a wonderful reason, but a lot of people are getting interested because of their health, because we have a crisis in this country of diabetes, heart disease, you know, obesity, and this happens to treat all of it. And what's so cool is like, I'm not on a different diet as a food addict. I'm on the same diet as somebody that has diabetes or, you know, it's all this, you know, it works for all these things. It's not like we have to tweak it. It's like whole food plant-based, fruits, vegetables, whole grains, legumes, a little bit of nuts and seeds, done, you know? Right. So what is your, what is the response that you give when somebody comes up to you, and I'm sure this happens all the time, and they say, well, what's wrong with paleo?

Like I'm eating a paleo diet and I feel great and it's helped me and I've lost weight. You know, I always say, you know, even a broken clock is right twice a day. And the thing about the paleo is it's unsustainable, first of all, just in so many ways. And they probably will feel great going to paleo from eating a standard American junk food diet. Well, it's certainly an improvement. Right, because they're taking away some of the offending things like the flours and the sugars and the junk food. The thing is, as great as they feel, they will feel much greater if they try this diet. There's so many people out there like Brenda Davis and all these dietitians have done wonderful presentations as to what's wrong with paleo diet.

And it's not even real because that's not the diet our cavemen ate. The meats that they're eating, they're not the same meats our ancestors ate anyway. It's kind of, I don't know, that drives me crazy, paleo. I'm on the kaleo diet and it works. The kaleo diet. I've never heard that. I'm surprised. Oh yeah. I'm on the kaleo diet. My cholesterol is 99. My triglycerides are 36. My LDL is 57. I'm on no medication. I never get sick. I'm on kaleo and it's way better than paleo. That's the soundbite. Yeah. That's for the trailer. Absolutely. better than paleo. That's the soundbite. Yeah. That's for the trailer. Absolutely. Cool. So,

so getting back into how you kind of got into being a chef, I mean, where, where does it, so you go to culinary school. I go to culinary school and then I realized out of culinary school, the best job I could get was $8 an hour. And I was already making, you know, four times that at my other job. So I didn't become a chef at first. I just started teaching cooking and, you know, inspiring people that way. And then I eventually did get a better paying job at the restaurant. And then, you know, I really don't, I didn't plan it, but just, you know, I got involved with these doctors. I met them and I, you know, they started referring people to me because I was cooking the food the way that they wanted their patients to eat. And it just, you know, they started asking me to speak and it was just, just kind of cool because, you know, it's like, you know, when you should, you know, go into a conference with Rip,

like, like I'm one of the speakers, like, isn't that, that's kind of cool. Yeah, it's pretty cool. Did you do the Farms to Forks? I didn't do that one, but I did the very first immersion program he had in 2010. Oh, you did. And I remember like, you know, Pam Popper a few years ago asked me to speak at a conference and the other two speakers were Dr. Esselstyn and Dr. Campbell. And I'm like, I'm like dreaming, you know, it's like, it's like, it's like if you're an actor being asked to star in a film with, you know, Robert De Niro and Al Pacino, that's what it feels like being me. And it's like when people say, oh, you're so, I'm like, no, I'm like, I'm,

I'm like, I feel like I'm at the lowest rung, just like looking up at all these people, you know, it's like, wow, I get to, I get to play with them. You know, this is my job. It's cool. And did you do some of the immersions they did with Whole Foods employees? I did the first one in March. That's where actually I met Dr. Pam Popper and John Pierre was March of 2010 in Austin. We did the very, very first one, and that was really cool. Right. And now they kind of have a program where I think they go around to, they have big immersion weekends where they take all these employees from Whole Foods. Right. And Rip does some of them, and Dr. McDougall does some of them and Dr. Furman does some of them.

So that's kind of a cool company to work for. So you get access to something that would probably never come your way otherwise. Yeah. Very cool. who really is in touch with the fact that they're a food addict or that they're eating to manage their emotions and just have tried everything and just keep going back and repeating the same patterns? Well, you know, like Dr. Phil always says, you can't change what you don't acknowledge. So I think acknowledging it is the first step to recovery. There's not one way that works for everyone, but I find that by not minimizing, but by abstaining from the things you're addicted to, whether it works for every addiction. So

in other words, you know, people always give me crap for not eating nuts, but they don't understand, you know, well, nuts are healthy and, you know, the research shows, well, I'm an addict and nuts are trigger food for me. So why would I want to keep indulging in something that I know is going to put me down a slippery slope? So whatever you find out your addiction is, you know, abstinence. See, I have this other saying, I have a t-shirt, abstinence is bliss. See, because to me it is, it's, you know, one of the things I loved about the movie Flight is that this is what I teach with JP is at the end of the movie, I don't want to ruin the movie if you haven't seen it, but the end of the movie where- It's been out long enough. Okay, all right.

Spoiler alert. It's like you haven't seen it. It's not like the crying game, right, where I'm revealing something. But at the end of the movie where he's in prison and he reunites with his estranged son and he says, for the first time in my life, I'm finally free. I mean, I cried for like days because the freedom from addiction, whatever your addiction is, is so much better than the addiction. And I had 43 years of just eating sugar and desserts. And yeah, I loved it. But man, abstinence is just, it's awesome. And I had one relapse in five years.

And I'm glad I did because it reminded me how bad it felt to be in the addiction. So I think the first thing would be to identify what your addiction is, what your trigger foods are. Oil is not necessarily a trigger food for people, but in all the food addiction programs throughout history in the United States that aren't vegan, I'm talking about OA, Overeaters Anonymous, Food Addicts Anonymous, Recovering Food Addicts, Food Addicts and Recovery, Compulsive Eaters Anonymous, Honest, Open, and, Recovering Food Addicts, Food Addicts in Recovery, Compulsive Eaters Anonymous, Honest, Open, and Willing. There's no nuts allowed.

There's no refined flours, no refined sugars, and they allow up to a tablespoon of oil a day. So I looked into these programs. I didn't join them because one of the things they do is they make you weigh and measure your food, which to me transferred the addiction from the scale that I stood on to the scale that they wanted me to weigh their food on. And now, because I don't eat oil and processed food and sugar, I can literally eat mass quantities of food because I'm eating foods that are so nutrient rich and low in calories. So I don't have to weigh and

measure. That was the part that I didn't resonate with. But that doesn't mean that they're not without value because one of the things they create is community and accountability. I think it's very hard for an addict to get better in isolation. I know one person, a family member that was a cocaine addict that did it. But for the most part, one of the things that's great about community, whether it's a plant-based community or any community, is that I feel especially for addicts, you need that support, especially at the beginning, because you know, you're not alone. I mean, you know, I think at some point everybody thinks they are alone, like that, you know, and they feel a lot of shame, whatever their addiction is like, what's wrong with me? Why can't I stop? Well, you can't stop

because it's a disease and the disease is in your brain and it's genetic. And even though food addiction is not yet in the DSM yet, it will be. I'm sure it will be because they just put binge eating disorder there. So, you know, there's so many ways and places now to get help. And there's wonderful resources. You know, even a book, you know, like your book, I'm sure, is saving people's lives because people are going to resonate with that. And like, wow, you know, that's why it's so great that there's not just one of us doing this. Everybody carries the message in their own personal different way.

Right, exactly. And so, you know, I mean, I can tell you the books that I've read that have helped me and maybe one will resonate, one won't. But see, this is the thing. Never stop learning. Never stop growing. You know, I mean, you have to keep learning because the research is changing. So one of the books that really helped me, and again, this is not a vegan book, it's called Shrink Yourself by Dr. Roger Gould, a psychiatrist that specializes this. And at www.shrinkyourself.com,

he has a four month online program that just changed my life because it helped me, you know, delve deeper into what my addiction was and why I was doing it and come up with some strategies. And it was like $160 for four months. I mean, to me, that's like nothing. Ultimately, I would have every addict of any substance go to True North and deal with it there, but not everybody can. But for $20 for a book on Amazon, why not? There's a local lady named Dr. Julie Simon who wrote a book called The Emotional Eater's Repair Manual. And she teaches at overeatingrecovery.com in person classes. I took it too. See, the thing is, is I don't ever want to get so cocky to think I'm

better and I'm well, because I know that I'm still an addict. Once an addict, always an addict. Exactly. And you know the old story, Rich, how do you know if an addict's lying? Their lips are moving. So I don't ever want to get too high on my- Don't, you're not, my wife is here. She's not supposed to know. What is that? Sorry.

So I don't ever- I never heard that. I don't ever want to get too high on my pedestal, but these have helped me tremendously. But it's kind of like, you know, I talked to Dr. McDougall once. He Skyped to my program and I asked him what he thought about food addiction. And he said, you have to get the food right first. And I really agree with that because once you get the diet that was a diet of our ancestors, that's consistent with our species natural history, which is a whole food

plant-based diet. And in my opinion, largely free of sugar, oil, salt, or as much as possible, that really helps the brain chemistry to heal and the palate to readjust. And then eventually these whole natural foods start tasting good. And, you know, this is, like you say, going unprocessed, it's a process. It is not gonna happen overnight. Most of us have had these addictions probably since before birth

because we inherited them genetically from our parents or at least from the time we're young. So, you know, it's hard, but it's doable. You know, the addiction paradigm is how I perceive the world, you know? You know, for me, that's how, that it's doable. You know, the addiction paradigm is how I perceive the world. You know, for me, that's how, that's just my filter. And so I tend to see things in that way. Most people don't, but we can talk that language.

Absolutely, that's why I loved you. That's why I think your presentation resonated with me, even though maybe our substances were different, our brains were actually the same. And when you meet someone like that, it's like a kindred spirit. It's like, oh, they finally get me. But I had to apply those principles of recovery to diet.

You know, I use the same, it's the same kind of vern side and readjusting your palate is you have to avoid that trigger food. Absolutely. You can't. And then, you know, we have these popular diets right now that let you have your cheat day or whatever. And it's like, I've said this before, but if I was allowed to have a cheat day once a week, I would just walk around for six days obsessing about my cheat day, what I was going to eat. And then you're a slave, you're a prisoner. You're not like Denzel Washington in the prison yard

saying I'm finally free because you're not free. You're a prisoner of that habit, that addiction, that impulse that will never leave you, that craving, that obsession of the mind. And in order to free yourself from that, you have to put distance between yourself and that food. And that's going to be uncomfortable. And it's going to be hard because in the world we live, everyone else is the pusher. And those foods are going to appear. It's celebrations.

It can be, you know, you get gas, you know, I go get gas at the gas station. I go into pay. What do I see? All these foods that I would love to eat. You know, I mean, you go to an airport. What do you smell? A Cinnabon. I mean, you know, we live in an environment that's actually set up for us to fail, but you're right. Moderation doesn't work for an addict. And the thing is, is with two thirds of Americans overweight and obese, moderation clearly hasn't worked for most of our population. Well, also it's people's perspective. They're tweaked perspective of what's moderate. Cause a lot, most people will say, well, I eat's perspective. They're tweaked perspective of what's moderate. Because most people will say, well, I eat pretty healthy.

What's wrong with moderation? But if you actually look at one and then go, okay, well, let's sit down and look at what's going on, especially if they're overweight or obese, and it becomes very clear pretty quickly that what they're doing really isn't moderate. Right. Dr. Esselstyn has a saying, moderation kills. Because it really does. As far as I know,

and correct me if I'm wrong, whatever the substance, the only thing that has ever worked for any addiction is complete and total abstinence. And like I say, I think abstinence is bliss, because when you come out of the other side, guys, I mean, it is a process because you feel so good in your brain compared to what you felt like when you were in the throes of addiction, that it's like, I don't want to go there again. And again, a year ago, I did have one relapse and I ate a piece of raw vegan tiramisu made with coconut oil and chocolate, which I don't eat, and agave. And it was right the day before. Shame on you. I know. Well, exactly.

20 lashes. Shame is, that's the exact thing I felt was shame because I felt all the people that I inspire and teach that I let them down. And then I saw, and then the first person to appear after my indiscretion was Dr. Alan Goldhammer, my mentor. And yeah, that's exactly what I felt was shame. But also physically, I felt horrible because I hadn't eaten these foods. And I was afraid that this would lead to me never stopping. But luckily I had the skills in place and tools in place that, and I'm kind of glad it happened, but I don't want it to happen again.

Yeah. This is a huge issue. Like this is the crux of the whole thing, I think. And what is preventing people from having a transformative experience, which is this idea of perfection and then failing and the inevitable kind of shame spiral that follows. And I have great familiarity with this. I know what that feels like, especially when, you know, you're, you're doing well, or people are looking to you as you're the person who's supposed to know better or whatever, and you missed up because you're a human being. And then, and then the flogging that you give yourself is a thousand times what anybody else would give you. And then you kind of shrink and you're like a wilting flower.

And so for the people that are listening out there, what are the strategies to manage the inevitable? I think failure is the wrong word. It's just sort of like something that happened. It's just information. It's like, what are you going to learn from this? How is this going to inform a better choice next time? You know, some of the people in our program, they relapse and then we never hear from them again. They get, they go deeper and deeper down the rabbit hole. And when I tell people, it's what they used to tell us at OHI, Optimum Health Institute, do your best and bless the rest. And, you know, I don't think the problem is that people

fall off the, I hate that expression, but it's not that they fall off the rest. And, you know, I don't think the problem is that people fall off the, I hate that expression, but it's not that they fall off the wagon, we all will, it's that they don't get back on. And so my motto is, is that if I do that, then the next meal,

the next bite of food is going to be A plus food. It's going to be plain steamed kale. Right. And we can always remember that, you know, in each moment, in each present moment, we have the opportunity to be born again, you know, to each moment, in each present moment, we have the opportunity to be born again, you know, to be renewed again. And so even if you make a bad decision or you make a decision

that's not in alignment with your highest, in the very next moment, you have another opportunity to make a better decision or, you know, a higher vibration decision. And you're not defined by what happened a moment ago, only what's happening right now. The problem with that is, at least from an addict point of view, is that you've sort of crossed that line and then it becomes easier to cross it again because you've broken the seal.

You're like, you know, you're like- I love that, you've broken the seal. Yeah, you just did it. Well, I just, you know, I did that two weeks ago. So what's the big deal if I do it again? I'll just start over again. Kind of like if you're in prison for life for murder, it's like, eh, what the heck, you know? Just kill 10 people more.

It's not going to affect my sentence, you know? Right. And so how do you crawl out of that or prevent that from dragging you down? I don't have all the answers. I only know what I do with my addiction is that I get, the next thing that goes in my mouth is something like steamed kale, is that I do a fruit and vegetable day, you know, to reset my palate. Or I go to True North or I call somebody that's like, I don't want to say sponsor because that's not, you know, George,

if you're listening, that's his name. George the sponsor. Yeah, he's, we don't actually. Your plant-based, your friendly plant-based nutrition. Can we include George's contact information with this podcast? Actually, you can, because he's really trying to get into this as a coach. George is an amazing person that I met at True North. He was 335 pounds, the worst food addict I ever met.

And he stayed at True North for 14 months until his weight and his brain chemistry adjusted for him to feel safe in the outside world. That's awesome. And he's got it figured out, man. And so he's my goat. Inspiration. I call him because there's not very many people that get it. Right. You know, this is the problem I have, you guys, with processed food

is that it's feeding into these people's addictions and it's creating them at a very young age. You know, Dr. Kessler says in his book that when you feed a kid, especially a young kid, these hyperpalatable foods full of sugar, fat, and salt, that it rewires their brain chemistry in an unfavorable way from the minute they're born. And, you know, I'll go to Costco because they have lots of organic, organic kale, organic spinach, organic fruit, and they also sell soda for 49 cents there. And I tell you, I actually see these mothers buying a soda for 49 cents and then pouring it into the sippy cup for a kid that looks like they're two years old, that they're as wide as they are tall, and then filling another one for herself.

And, you know, if she was giving him cocaine, he would be taken away. But in her book, The Hunger Fix, Dr. Pam Peek, who's a special consultant to Michelle Obama, says sugar is more addictive than heroin and cocaine. So it's just that the companies are able to get away with this. This is what bothers me. And I want at least people to have the information and they can choose. You don't have to, you can eat sugar, you can eat oil, you can eat salt, do whatever you want, but at least be aware of what the consequences have been and are, especially to children. especially to children.

Here's a question for you, and I know the answer to this, but I want to hear what you're going to say. There are groups of people out there that would have you believe that sugar is sugar, whether it's coming in fruit or it's high fructose corn syrup, your body doesn't know the difference. Absolutely incorrect. Because when you eat a whole food, like a piece of fruit that has fructose corn syrup, your body doesn't know the difference. Absolutely incorrect. Because when you eat a whole food, like a piece of fruit that has fructose, the digestion is slowed down by the water and the fiber and the vitamins and minerals and phytochemicals and antioxidants.

But when you strip it from that and you have just the refined part, it's way different. You know, agave, some people would argue, is worse than high fructose corn syrup because it's metabolized in the liver. It's about 90% fructose. You know, you have to realize it takes about three feet of sugar cane to make one teaspoon of sugar. Nobody eats three feet of sugar cane. This is the problem I have with oil.

If people could understand that one little innocent tablespoon of corn oil that they may use in a salad dressing or to saute came from 16 years of corn. Nobody sits down and eats 16 years of corn. One day I tried, and after three, I couldn't eat anymore. 44 olives in a tablespoon of olive oil. Most people that I know don't eat 44 olives. 1,375 olives in a cup of olive oil. I believe that either people believe we're supposed to eat our food whole or we're not. I just believe we do. So sugar, if you eat beets, it's great. But if you eat beet sugar, not so great. That's the problem. All the problems in life, when you think about it,

think about alcohol. Where does it come from? Grain. Nothing wrong with eating whole grain, but when you process it into alcohol, it's a problem. Nothing wrong with eating, not that people would eat a poppy, but the white poppy is pretty harmless. But when you process it into cocaine and heroin, it becomes a problem. All the things that sugar and flour and oil come from are fine. But you process them, you lose the fiber and the nutrients and the phytochemicals. And then the food becomes calorie rich and nutrient poor. So you have to understand it is way different.

And sugar is sugar. And that's true. Because, I mean, I don't put dates in the same category. I put dates in the category of a whole food. But it doesn't matter if it's, you know, people argue with me, well, it's agave or it's coconut nectar. It doesn't matter because just because something is less harmful doesn't mean it's health-promoting. And to your body, it doesn't matter if it's maple syrup or agave or barley malt or brown rice syrup. It's all the same. And really the problem isn't so much the type of sugar, but the amount.

And the USDA, the American Cancer Society, the American Hearts Association says that if we choose to consume processed and refined sugars, which we don't have to do, that we should have no more than 5% of our total calories. Well, for somebody eating a 2000 calorie diet, and by the way, I had my, whatever that thing is checked at Ralph's

and I can only eat about 1400 calories if I'm not exercising. 2000 calories, that's 100 calories from sugar. That's like five teaspoons. If you're eating a dessert, whether it's raw, vegan or standard, you're already over your limit. If you're drinking a soda,

you're already over your limit of processed sugar. You know, it's just bad. Right. What about juicing and making Vitamix blends? Yeah, I think, well, I think having smoothies, especially green smoothies is probably more favorable than juicing. And I don't have a problem with juicing

except there was a popular movie, Fat, Sick and Nearly Dead. And I know a lot of people are juicing. The problem is how I see people juice. So when I juice at True North, my juice is zucchini, cucumber, celery, and spinach. That's a green juice. The people I see juicing, it's beets,

it's carrots, it's apple. It's all sweet fruits with like a leaf of kale. The thing about juicing is it takes away the fiber and the pulp. So I would rather have people do green smoothies because they're more filling and they're, you know, they're whole foods. Right. I think that what happens is the, yeah, it gets perverted and suddenly, you know, what they're drinking is essentially a banana split. Yeah. As opposed to, yeah, I mean, I always say that whether it's a juice or a blend, it starts with the dark leafy greens. And that should be the number one ingredient.

You know, fruit is fine, but it's more to kind of cut the bitterness of the vegetables that you're drinking. Exactly. We actually, when we embarked on this journey, we started out with dark leafy green blends. So we Vitamix for one or two years before we actually then started juicing. And now it's sort of a, how are we feeling and what's the purpose?

But technically, if you're putting tons of, whether it's vegetables or fruits or whatever it is, and then you're blending it, you're processing, that is a process. But it's not refined, but you're not stripping. You it's vegetables or fruits or whatever it is, and then you're blending it, you're processing. That is a process. But it's not refined, but you're not stripping. You're not refining it. That's right.

And I've had, I mean, it's transformed my health. There's no way that it's not helping me, but there are camps within the plant-based community that will say this is not a good thing. And here's the thing. Yeah, you're right. And I think, again, this divides us and it doesn't help our cause. Jean-Pierre says it's the movement of four nuts or six nuts. It's like splitting hairs or whatever. So a lot of times, some of us that have been doing this a long time,

we get into almost a mastery level of what's worked for us and we want everybody else to do it. Now, here's the thing. From a weight standpoint, as somebody that was obese, I love smoothies, but I don't do a lot of them and I'll tell you why, but I don't tell other people to do it. I have a skinny husband, six feet, 140 pounds, no food addictions. He eats- Six feet, 140. Yeah, really thin. And when we ate oil, he was 160. He was still thin. So every morning I make him a 32 ounce, very green smoothie and oatmeal for breakfast. He needs a second breakfast like a

hobbit. Sometimes I'll drink the overflow. I did green smoothies for eight years and they were wonderful because compared to my slurpy breakfast, this was better. I was moving in the direction of optimum health, good, better, best, But I was still having trouble losing weight. When I went to True North, Dr. Lyle, who you like, explained it to me this way. He said, when you blend food, you absorb more calories. Now, for people that are slim or active or children or senior citizens that otherwise can't, you know. Can't chew. Right.

These are great. But he says, for you, you're one of these people that absorb every calorie. He says, I want you to do an experiment. This is how Dr. Lyle gets you to every calorie. He says, I want you to do an experiment. This is how Dr. Doug Lyle gets you to do stuff. He says, I want you to do an experiment. So he said, when you get home from True North, put everything in the blender like you normally would for your smoothie. And then pour it in a bowl and then eat it. When I tried to eat the eight ounces of kale, the one cup of almond milk, the two tablespoons of flax, I got full before I could finish.

So for me, I eat my vegetables for breakfast. I eat my steamed kale for breakfast. Does that mean I never have a smoothie? No. On days I travel, and I love them. I think of them as delicious treats. So I don't tell people not to eat smoothies. I know that Dr. Esselstyn says they injure the endothelial.

I've never seen any research that says that. The thing is, is there is no such thing as green smoothie because there are people that where their green smoothie has cacao nibs and almond butter and agave, and that's not the kind of green smoothie you and me make, which is mostly greens with maybe a little fruit to mitigate the bitterness, which is really a green, green smoothie. It depends. Sometimes I do make chocolate shake as a dessert. Well, but it's a dessert. It's a treat. But I don't drink that every morning. Right. And you're not saying that, you know, look at me, I'm drinking a green smoothie.

No, but I think what you're saying is really wise. And again, it's something that Rich and I, you know, try to hold space for. And that is to allow people to have their own journey where they're at. they're at. Like, I'm not going to separate myself from, you know, another vegan chef or another wellness advocate because they don't use oil or I use oil. I mean, we're all sort of serving the same mission and you have to be respectful and honoring and supportive of people where they're at because it's all an evolution. I mean, I started with this cyst in my neck, really, and that was the first, you know, adjustment of my diet. I've always been a thin person. And then, you know, the journey's gone from there. And, you know, then we all know Rich's story and where we are now.

And now we have effectively four vegan children. Wow. And, you know, my boys are my sous chefs. And, you know, it's pretty awesome. And everybody's really healthy. We're not sick. We're happy. But, you know, we also understand that it's a process and everybody has their own process, their own individual evolution with it.

Right. And I agree. I've got to work harder on what you just said is allowing people to, you know, to hold space for them. And for anyone I've offended out there or that I will offend, just understand that it comes from a place of love because it's like, I've been to the prison with Denzel Washington and I know what it feels like. And if I am sometimes like, you shouldn't do that.

It's like, because I want you to get there because I know how good you're going to feel. So I kind of, being an Aries, I do it more from, come on, come with me. This is great. Then like, you're a bad person because you have smoothies and oil. No, it's not that. But also remember that, you know, there's

an old, I think it's a Chinese proverb that if you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always gotten. Some people get as addicted to their smoothies as other people do. And it's like, they're still obese, but I mean, it's fine. But they say they come to my program, they want to lose weight. And I'm like, okay, well, instead of the smoothie, let's have you, oh no. And they can't, they get attached to certain things and they aren't willing to try something else. And that's why I run a 30-day program because I really believe, you know, there's like in Lent, and the people that celebrate that, I think that anybody can do anything for 30 days. So just try, you know, if what you're doing isn't working, you know what goals you have,

then maybe try something else. No. And I'm really grateful that you shared that perspective because I think it's going to be very, very valuable to a lot of people who are trying to lose weight. I think, and I think the 30 day thing is huge because, well, I'm just speaking from personal experience, but unless I immerse myself in something completely and really focus on it and devote all of my energy to it for a sustained period of time, I don't know whether I can change myself or not. You know what I mean? Unless I give myself to it. So I don't like the whole idea of like, well, I'm just going to eat a little bit better.

And yeah, I'll just, I'll start slowly and just start eating more and better food. Like that doesn't work for me. I guess it works for some people, but like it just, it doesn't mean anything to me. I don't think it works for most people. I had a friend who I went to high school with and she was always the skinny one and now she's the fat one. And so she went on statins and I'm like, you don't have to go on statins. Read my book.

Oh, she goes, I tried diet and exercise. It didn't work. And I'm like, well, what diet did you try? And how long? She goes, oh, about a week. You know, I mean, you can't, you know, it takes like at least 15 days to, you know, to break a habit. Well, it's also that idea of failing after a week and saying, well, it didn't work. It was a self-defeating thing. Well, I slipped up once. So obviously I can't do this. But I think that's part of the issue. And part of the issue is that, you know,

we all as a society are completely addicted to instant gratification as well. If you don't see something right away, then you're like, where's my gift? Where's my payoff? I think it all comes down to dopamine. And that's the thing. What people have to understand is I am an addict, and most of the people I work with are addicts. At least 90% of the people that come to my program are. And so, yeah, it's a little bit more extreme, but this is what works for this subset of population of people.

Not everybody has to go that extreme. And so, you know, the thing I try to explain about oil or things like nuts and seeds is the more calorically dense the foods are, the more dopamine is released. And that's why people seek them and gravitate towards them. Because when you think about oil, it doesn't taste all that good by itself. You need some sugar, you need some salt. Most people aren't just sitting there drinking olive oil. It's a carrier for other flavors. But you had mentioned earlier about how that we're genetically hardwired to prefer these tastes of sugar, fat, and salt. And that was for survival because in the old days, we didn't have houses. And if we tried to get food for ourselves or our

families, there was a chance we could actually be the food. And so if we saw like a ripe avocado that had maybe 200 calories or a head of lettuce with 20, we're genetically hardwired to prefer the most concentrated source of calories for survival. Well, we're overfed and yet still undernourished. But more important than that is what the food giants knew and how they hooked us is that the more concentrated the source of calories, the more dopamine is released. Dopamine is a pleasure chemical. It's a neurotransmitter that's released whenever we have a pleasurable experience, which for most human beings are food and sex. Well, most people can't be going around their job, you know, the day

having sex all day, you know, I mean, unless you're born. Most people. Speak for yourself. It's so funny. I got to say this because this is, I got to say this because this is, I don't embarrass easily, but just a week ago I was at Tillamook giving a presentation at an Adventist hospital and I was talking about the movie Forks Over Knives and I was talking about this dopamine thing because they ate really badly. this Adventist hospital. They weren't even vegetarian. Most Adventist hospitals are, but they were also highly processed, selling a lot of processed crap and making it. So I was giving a lecture to food service and a few doctors. And in the middle of a very handsome Latino gentleman walked in and I just assumed he was like, he didn't seem like a doctor and

he wasn't working. I figured he maybe worked in the billing office. So he's sitting there. I get to the part of the lecture where I'm talking about the movie's forks over knives and sex and food were releasing dopamine. And a lot of the audience was quite overweight. And I said, look, you know, you know, you have the kind of job you can be eating crap all day, you know, getting your dopamine. Nobody's going to say anything, but it's not like you could be having sex all day at your job. And then I pointed to this very handsome man and I said, and even you sir, as handsome as you are, it's not like you could be having sex all day on the job. And everybody in the room laughed.

And I said, and what do you do at the hospital? And he goes, I'm the chaplain. Oh, my God. I've never been so embarrassed in my life. So the point is, you know, processed food is readily accessible, easily affordable, socially acceptable. So people can be medicating with food all day. It's a lot easier. You know, some of the other addictions like alcohol and drugs

become more noticeable like to your employer and they can get you in a lot more trouble quicker. And so the thing is, you know, we need to find ways. See, the thing that's so great is, you know, you've probably heard this saying is we never really overcome our addictions. We trade one from another. But how great is it to trade alcoholism for running? I mean, that is like going in an awesome direction because you get dopamine from running and you're running a lot.

So you're not just transferring it onto another behavior or, you know, habit or something like that. So, um, I have to work hard to not make running an addictive behavior pattern. I can go there and I've been there, but it's about trying to manage it in a way where you're living more balanced and you're kind of dealing with your sort of, you know, behavior patterns in a healthier way, I guess. But on the issue of addiction, I mean, it kind of gets bandied about in a very casual way. Like, oh, I'm addicted to ice cream. I'm addicted to this. I'm addicted to that. And it's like, that's different from really being addicted to something. Sure.

So in terms of really evaluating, like if somebody is listening to this and they're thinking, well, maybe I am addicted to food or maybe I'm not like, what are some things that I can do to figure out whether this is really like a problem for me? Well, they can go online and they can go to Pam Peek's website, but they can also Google the Yale or I forget if it's Yale or Harvard, there's a food addiction quiz. You can take free online to see if that, if that really resonates with you, if you are a food addict or not, you know? Yeah. I think that would be a good thing to do. You know, I could, I could even email you the link for that. I use that with, with people.

And also just to pay attention to how you, you know, if you just journaled like when you eat certain foods and what you're like when you eat certain foods and what you're feeling when you eat them to try to create that connection between your emotional state and the behavior patterns and eating patterns that you're. A lot of times I'll just say if, if the, if just the thought of the absence of a food makes you sad, mad, irritable, depressed, there's a good chance you are. That happens to me all the time. Well, I look at it this way. It's like when I tell people, people that come to my class, they're not even vegan. And I say, well, you know, the first thing is give up cheese and like they freak out, you know, but if, you know, if I say to people, listen, I got the

secret to longevity and health. You'll never get sick, fat or have cancer or heart disease. Just don't eat okra. And most people are like, fine. But you know, you say bread or chocolate or these things. And again, you're right. It's not addiction in the same way, but the pathways in the brain, it feels the same. You know what I mean? I mean, you definitely feel like you're going to die if you don't have this thing. Right.

So coming up on our holiday season, we just hit October. Is it October today or tomorrow? Today. October 1st. October today or tomorrow? Today. October 1st. Yeah, so here we are. We're getting ready to embark on all these holidays coming up. First one being Halloween, which I actually want to ask you a favor about. Sure.

I just wanted to ask you, what is your advice to addicts and newly transformed plant-based individuals that are thinking, how am I going to make it through Halloween, Thanksgiving, Christmas, Hanukkah? This is the hardest time of the year for most people because most of us aren't the Waltons. The guys on Madison Avenue will have you believe that everybody's having a happy Christmas, and that's not really true. It's true, right? Yeah. I'm with you believe that everybody's having a happy Christmas, and that's not really true. It's true, right? I mean, yeah.

I'm with you on that. More people gain weight from Halloween to January 2nd, like something like five to seven pounds, whether they're plant-based or not. So what I do as an addict is I go to the place safe, which is True North, and I'm going to be there December 1st through January 2nd. You're just going to go high. Yeah, that's right. She's going to her own island of health.

Exempting herself from society. So what did I do before that? It's, you know, I created a community of people that thought like me and that ate like me. That's who we're having Thanksgiving with, you know. It is hard because this is just, you know, there's, of all these foods we talked about, they're in full force during this time of year.

And it starts with innocent trick-or-treating. That's how it all starts, giving the kids the free candy, and then it just gets worse. And, you know, people feel like if they don't eat something, they're going to offend somebody. And I found that it's not so much

the Aunt Martha's apple pie that you really are craving. You're craving the warm memories that you had when you were a little kid because of this aunt that loved you. And I'd like to have people create new traditions that don't necessarily have to be so food centric. How about volunteering at a mission?

That's what I always did. That's how I always spent my holidays was going down to Skid Row and serving people less fortunate than myself rather than stuffing my feelings with pumpkin pie. You're asking- Also, the other thing is, sorry, I don't mean to be interrupting you. No, please go ahead.

Make my point. It's your show. No, the one thing on the idea of you don't want to offend other people. People are way too self-involved. They don't care. They're not thinking about you. They're thinking about their own BS, you know? So you can-

Such an uplifting perspective. It's true. It sounds jaded. It sounds jaded, but I'm actually giving you the keys to the kingdom. Where once you realize like, no one's really paying attention to what you're eating as much as you think they are.

Right. That's funny. Then you have freedom. Yeah. And if they are, they'll get over it. Yeah. Absolutely. They'll get over it. The other thing, just a little practical tip that John Pierre and I teach in our program is I believe in pre-eating. So when I have to go to these restaurants with the hyper palatable foods or somebody else's house for dinner, even if they're vegan, I go full. I have my nutrient

needs met. I have my nutrient needs met. I have my stretch receptors and nutrient receptors and calorie receptors activated by a healthy meal with a sweet potato and a bunch of kale so that I'm not starving when I get there so that I'm not tempted. Then I can pick here and pick there. And this is what something I've been doing for years. Yeah. Rich does that. I do that. Yeah. That saves me. We're like two peas in a pod. No, I'll like eat. Yeah. I eat before I go to the meal. Like I eat what I know that nourishes me. And then I'm always hungry.

Right. So I'll, you know, I'll continue to eat, but then I'm not like- Ravenous. So ravenous that I make a bad choice. So that's just a real good tip. Yeah, and so Rich and I are trying to start a new tradition around what we were just talking about.

And you were talking about community and finding a community where you could connect to. And, you know, here we are in October and Halloween is coming up. And, you know, I just had to ask myself, you know, are we really going to buy in again this year and, you know, buy the Hershey's candy and go out? And, you know, your kids are eating, you know, you watch them. You can't say no, because if you say no, then you're just a buzzkill. And why are you even doing it? And so anyway, I just had this big inspiration that maybe we could start a new tradition

and kind of start a new way. So anyway, we're having our first ever plant powered Halloween. And it's a community event, not because it's open to the public. It's a private event. But we're asking everybody, kind of the big question is, what are you bringing? So anyway, I actually wrote a blog post on this and we're going to put it up. But I was going to ask you, I've asked the families to bring homemade, dairy-free, gluten-free, processed, refined, sugar-free treats. Everybody will put processed, refined sugar-free treats. Everybody will put up their own pop-up table.

We're going to have a haunted house. Huge emphasis on homemade costumes, creativity. We're endeavoring to make it a no-trash event. So everyone should bring all their reusable bottles and plates and Halloween bags. But I'd love to ask you to gift us with a Halloween treat recipe of something that you can share. Maybe we could include it with the podcast. It's so easy. It's from my book, but it's one of the easiest and it's perfect for Halloween because it's a caramel apple. Oh, good. This is exactly what I wanted. I was going to ask you for this specific recipe. I will tell you how to do it, but first I have to ask if I'm invited to your party. You are.

You're going to be hiding up at True North, though. No, no, I'm not leaving until December 1st. Will you please? Is it okay? Because I already have a Scooby-Doo costume. May I please wear it? Yes, you can. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Did you talk to Juliana yet? No, I haven't been able to. I was going to ask you for her contact info. I'll give it to you on the air right now. Julia, everyone can call Juliana. We'll give you our phone number right now on the air. So real easy. So I use dates instead of sugar.

And yes, people say, oh, they're so high in sugar. Well, unless you're a diabetic, true, they're 70% sugar. But Dr. Michael Greger at nutritionfacts.org will tell you they're still the most favorable sweetener because they're a whole food and they have a favorable effect on your blood sugar and triglycerides and have fiber and water all the same. So I don't believe in doing anything in moderation. So just to make a cup of date paste is ridiculous. So I get a three pound tub of dates, pitted dates, but you can do this with as many or a few as you want. And I soak them in a liquid. I generally use unsweetened almond milk, but if you'd like to use water, that's fine. If you'd like to use an unsweetened fruit juice, that's fine.

But the ratio is one pound of dates to one cup of liquid. So as again, I say I do three pounds to three cups because it's just easier for me. I like vanilla, so I add three tablespoons of vanilla extract. Put it on the counter overnight. Go to bed in the morning. The dates have absorbed most of this liquid. Don't throw the liquid out. That's part of the recipe.

Dump it in your food processor. Fit it with the S-blade. You can get a food processor for less than $40 now. Black & Decker, Hamilton Beach. Whiz it around. You got this paste, and it's kind of liquidy. Not liquidy, but it's not firm yet. Make it nice and smooth.

Put it in the fridge. Let it set up a little bit. It's not going to get hard hard, but it's going to get a little bit less liquidy. You go buy some sticks. You can get them at Michael's, you know, cake decorating stores. I like the kind with the pointy end rather than the popsicle stick. Get your favorite apple. Some people like green apples.

It doesn't matter. I always put the apple the way it stands the best. There's no, I always say, okay, this is standing up good. I stick the stick in. I buy those real pretty cupcake papers at Michael's. So I take the apple and I put it in this tub of date paste. And I kind of leave a little bit of ring on top. I like when the apple shows, kind of like at Rocky Mountain chocolate. Man, man, when I was an addict, man, I was the best, man. I knew every person at every candy store. I mean,

every bakery, I knew every piece of See's candy just by looking. I didn't have to stick my finger. So anyway, so you put it in the date paste. Sometimes you take a little spatula if there's a little hole. Now you have to dip it in something because it's sticky. So this is fun. You do this with the kids. You have a little party. So you have little bowls of maybe chopped pistachios, chopped peanuts, raw cacao nibs, vegan chocolate chips, unsweetened coconut, whatever you want. And then you just roll, roll. Sometimes you want to mix them together. They can make their own. And then you put in a little paper and then you put it in the fridge. It's so good. It looks like the real thing. It tastes like the real thing. That's amazing. And the date paste stays on the apple.

As long as you roll it in something. It stays on the apple, but you can't just put it in. It's too sticky. So you've got to roll it in something. You've got to roll it to the stickiness. Something. And it's fantastic. That's so perfect. It looks like it. It tastes like it. They're beautiful. My favorite happens to be pistachios, but peanuts are great. And if you do chocolate rock acown nibs, they're beautiful. They look like it. They taste like it. And they're good for you. Thank you so much. You're welcome. That's great. All right. Well, she's definitely coming to the party. She's absolutely coming. Oh're welcome. That's great. All right. Well, she's definitely coming to the party.

Oh my God. I could make so many desserts for you guys. I'll tell you. That was what I did. You know? All right. That's awesome. You find a job that the universe provides. Yeah. There she is. I know she's here. So, Johnny Carson. Yeah. What's up? Oh my gosh. You know, it's so funny because

when you come to my class, I always show this DVD. You know, I used to be a comedian and I guess an actress. No. Yeah, I know. I know. So when I was seven years old, I remember there was the Joey Bishop. I was born in 1960. There was the Joey Bishop show and the Johnny Carson show growing up in the 60s.

And we used to like both. And I just, when I was a little kid, you talk about manifesting. All I thought about was that I wanted to be on The Tonight Show. That was just like my dream. And when I- Well, if you were a comedian and you were on The Tonight Show, that was life transformative. Right. Except that I got scared. And afterwards I just went and hid in my little hole. I just, it was just like, I didn't know what to do with it. I was on several times actually. I was on Jay Leno and I was on Letterman. But this one appearance, especially the one that was actually shown on Larry King when he died, when Johnny Carson died and not when Larry King died. I think Larry King's

still alive. He's coming back too. I think he's back. Oh, so when Carson died, Larry King did a special. And they showed this and I was getting calls from all over the world because a lot of people only see me now as a chef. They don't know about what happened 25 years ago. So in 1987, I was called to be on The Tonight Show, and I did this very unique act. And I show this a lot of times when I speak, not because then people say, God, she really is crazy, but because I was so fat. And I want people, you know, because you look, you know, I'm, I still think I'm fat. I mean, just cause that's going to take a while, but you know, when you see somebody 180 pounds,

it's 125. It's like, I show them, cause this is before I was vegan, or at least I was really at the junk food vegan. It was right when I started, it was 10 years where I was kind of more vegetarian, kind of cheating and whatever. And I say, this is, look at how this diet's so great. So what I do is I play two flutes through my nose, standing on my head and blowing bubble gum through my mouth. And Johnny Carson was just like, like, he didn't know what to say. And he was so awesome. It's even funnier to watch. Wait a minute. Two flutes, like you're playing a flute out of each nostril? It's actually called a recorder. It's not, it's actually called a recorder. It's not a kazoo. It's not a kazoo.

I know what a recorder is. You have to know the fingering because it's not like just going, hmm, hmm, hmm. So I play the William Tell Overture and then I'm blowing bubbles with bubble gum through my mouth. It's very hard because try blowing out your nose and your mouth at the same time right now. That's like playing a didgeridoo because you're like circular breathing almost. It's really hard. And then I'm doing it on my head, standing up my head. And I'm fat too, so it was even harder.

And so anyway, I'll bring you, I'll mail you. How did you come up with this? I don't even know what you're talking about right now. It's funny. I know. The inspiration for playing the flute through my nose happened when I was a little kid. Because in public school, they made us learn this instrument and I always had had bubble gum in my mouth, and I didn't want to take it out, because once the gum was at its perfect texture, you didn't want to... So I always played it through my nose. And then standing on the head,

it was like when I had this interview for The Tonight Show, the guy interviewing me was like, okay, that's good. And I wanted to up the ante and go, but I can do it standing on my head. Actually, I hadn't done it standing on my head or blowing bubble through my mouth. At first I had to go home and learn these things once I was being considered for the Tonight Show because they wanted something really unique. So how did you even get into that? Like you're figuring this out and you're like,

here's my ticket to Carson. Yeah, well, you know, I had an agent. I was doing, you know, small parts on shows, little bits here and there, you know, like court shows and soap operas. And, you know, small parts on shows, little bits here and there, you know, like court shows and soap operas. And, you know, somebody had gone in to interview at the Tonight Show that was with my agency. And the guy, I remember him, Bob Dolce, he said, you know, she's just like everybody else, blonde, fake boobs. You know, do you have any real people?

And he said, oh, I got somebody real for you. And he sat me in and it was like, I just, I don't know. You know, it was just, it was great. So you do, you did Carson a couple of times. A couple of times. And then you did Letterman. I did Letterman. I did Letterman.

All on your head with blowing bubble gum. No, Carson was the only one that I did on my head and blowing bubble. Letterman, I think I did an 84, 85, just did the flute thing. And then Leno, I did a little bit later. But Carson, I saved the standing on my head blowing bubble. I wanted to retire it with Johnny because that was just. And so when Larry King was doing a tribute to Johnny. They were showing it in the background.

And there I was. And unfortunately it's considered a news clip. So I got no residual from it. But it was still kind of cool seeing that. Yeah. I mean, how many thousands of shows did he do? And they picked the show that you were on. It was pretty cool.

That's crazy, right? Pretty cool. So yeah, you know, I had another life before being a chef. All right. And we're going to wrap it up here in a minute, but I can't let you off the hook without, I want to know more about the secret AJ burrito. Yeah. Okay.

I feel bad for people not living in California, but we have a Mexican restaurant chain here called Sharky's. They're at www.sharkys.com. Is it only in California? I believe they might be in Washington too. I'm not sure. So three years ago, I broke my knee and I was going to Valley College for swim therapy two hours a day. And I'd get out of the pool and I was starving.

And there was a Sharky's across the street. It wasn't vegan, but they had organic. But the staff didn't understand that organic didn't mean vegan. And so I would customize a burrito and I'd say, okay, this is what I wanted. And I just want some beans in this. And I'd go home. Oh my God, we have to talk.

Yeah, yeah. And then I would go home and I'd never thought to check. Now I always check my, and I'd go home, even though I live a few miles away and there would either be cheese in it, chicken, shrimp, sour cream. This is the story of my life. Right.

Every time, because I love getting burritos and I go to all the, I go life every time because i love getting burritos and i go to all the i go you know sometimes i'm just out and that's the only good option i can go i can go into baja fresh or any of these places and just get rice and beans and maybe some avocado and some salsa and and i have to go through the gymnastics of like trying to explain to them i know why you know and what meat and no i don't't want meat and no, no cheese. And then it comes with the sour cream and it's like literally six times out of 10,

I have to give it back to them. They just does not compute. Exactly. So that's how the AJ Burrito was born at Sharky's. So I'd get home and it wouldn't be what I wanted. So they have an online forum and I would fill out and then I would get a call within five minutes from David Goldstein, the CEO of Sharky's, apologizing.

And within 15 minutes, a burrito would be delivered to my home. That's awesome. And Sharky's doesn't deliver. So finally I said, look, David, I really want to be referring people to you. I sort of have a wide community of people that will sometimes do what I say when it comes to health. And I said, I teach a class. Could you please come as my guest and I'll explain to you what vegan is, why it has to be oil-free. He came to my class. And so we worked on the Sharky's Burrito, but he didn't want to put it on the menu. He had it on the secret button. And there's been a button there

for three years. So my community has known about it, but finally the AJ Burrito has broke loose. And apparently there's big pictures and signs showing it. And what it is- Does it have a picture of you too? No, no, no. It just says AJ Burrito. No picture of me, but it's a low fat. It does have some oil in the tortilla, but it's a low fat whole wheat tortilla, organic. That's filled with organic brown rice,

organic pinto beans, a little bit of pico de gallo and a smidge of guacamole and steamed broccoli. And it's delicious. And if you have to do gluten-free, you get it over a bed of steamed greens. And it's just, I love it. And it's oil-free, very low salt, and they have a great salsa bar. You can add your jalapenos. And if it goes wrong, you know, I mean, I just have, I have David Goldstein on my cell phone now. I mean, I, it, it, it. David, I'm at Sharky's. They didn't give it to

me right this time. Oh no, really. It's he, it's, it's pretty serious business now and it's almost never wrong now. And so it's, it's great. It's great. That's awesome. Yeah. It's so really. It's pretty serious business now and it's almost never wrong now. And so it's great. It's great. That's awesome. Yeah. It's so cool. That's like a great example of, I mean, that's how you, in my opinion, you affect real change. Right. You have to work with the systems that exist in order to, you know, create those little movements that start to develop momentum and become bigger things over time.

And you know, people like this, even though it's not vegan. I mean, it's a good burrito. They just want the AJ burrito. Yeah, it's so good. And then if you want it without the thing, you have to order AJ naked. And then it's on a bed of greens.

That's better. AJ on her head playing two flutes and blowing bubblegum burrito. Exactly. You know, I just wish it could be on my website, but I don't own it because I would love to be able to have everybody see this because it is really funny, but I don't own the rights.

So I can't put it on my website. Oh, what, the video? Of the video of The Tonight Show. They won't let me. I ask them like every few months. It's probably on YouTube, isn't it? It's not yet. They say we will put it on YouTube when we're ready.

So I have to keep asking the producers if they'll do it. I can't imagine at this point. Like, who cares? Why wouldn't they let you just do that? Well, I can give it to you. You can upload it. I just, I promised him that if he sold it to me, I wouldn't. And I just wanted to honor that. I gotcha. Yeah. Cool. So can I ask you, what does AJ stand for? My legal name, Abby J. A-B-B-I-E-J-A-Y-E. Abby J.

Abby J. But it sounds like I'm from the South. Where are you from? Chicago. Chicago. Nice. She reminds me of Ronnie Selig a little bit. A little bit. Yeah. She can hang. She can hang definitely. Cool. All right.

Well, thanks so much. It just felt like five minutes, man. This is so, I'm so glad to meet you guys. It goes fast. I see you on Facebook and admire you. Now I'm going to hire you to speak at Healthy Taste. I'm so excited. I know.

I'm sorry I couldn't make the last one that we did, but we're going to make it work. Yeah, I know. You're going to be great. Yeah. So Healthy Taste of LA is your, explain what that is. It's my baby. So I, because you had, yeah, it's funny because you asked why doesn't Jeff Nelson ever ask me to speak? I don't know. So I figured I'll create my own event so I can speak and Juliana can speak. And so it's called Healthy Taste of LA. And now it's actually in more than one city. We're doing them in Ventura, near to you. We're doing them in Sacramento. We're doing them in the Inland Empire.

So we're doing about four events a year. And we have just all the great people in our movement, such as yourself and Jean-Pierre and all the different doctors. And it's just a wonderful day-long event that we do many times a year. Awesome. So yeah, if people wanna learn more about that,

they can go to healthytasteofla.com. Exactly. Right. And then your other websites are chefajshealthykitchen.com, right? Yeah. If you go to- Eat Unprocessed. Is the main website that will take you to all the different ones. Okay. All right. Yeah. Cause in your email, you have like a couple of websites. I know, I know.

Which one is the one you want? I should just put, I'll just put it in Unprocessed. You do one website for everything. Yeah, do one website. Yeah. cool. And where else can people check you out or find you? Like you're on Twitter, right? Yeah, I'm on Twitter.

I just noticed you're following me as of today. I just, I don't understand Twitter, but I'm on it and I think I know how to do it. But I'm on Facebook, but I'm full and nobody wants to go to your fan page once you're full. You know, it's like, it's one of those things. Well, you just start doing, just keep telling people you're just going to start posting to your fan page once you're full, you know, it's like, yeah, it's one of those things. Well, you just start doing it. Just keep telling people you're just going to start posting on your fan page only. They'll move over.

Oh, then they'll move. Great. There you go. Cool. Good advice. Cool. Well, that was really fun. Yeah, it was great.

Yeah. So maybe I'll see you guys up at True North at the holidays. We can go hide together. We'll go hide? There you go. I don't know about that. We're in the trenches. We're going to be, We're going to be preparing

vegan recipes out of our cookbook for everyone in our community. We'll see you on Halloween. Yeah, I can't wait. Thanks so much. Thanks everybody for listening. You want to

check out more about what Julie and I are doing. We have our plant-based nutrition course at mindbodygreen.com. Go check that out. Three and a half hours of awesome content and an online community there. We've got our products at richroll.com that you can check out. The Amazon banner link. What else? You can find me at srimatimusic.com.

S-R-I-M-A-T-I.com. And Julie's been lighting it up on Instagram. Yeah, I can follow me at at srimati on Instagram, and I'm on Twitter at Jai Seed, J-A-I-S-E-E-D. But you've been posting lots of pictures of the stuff that you're cooking and putting it on the kitchen. Yeah, I really love Instagram. It's great.

Cool. All right. So. That's it. It was a blast. Yeah, we're out of here love the studio alright

thanks for being here with us thank you it was so much fun keep doing what you're doing you're changing lives it's awesome yeah you're amazing thank you

it's nice having you appreciate you coming by my pleasure alright peace namaste plants kaleo Thank you.