The Rich Roll Podcast - Fueling Performance With Play: Ultra-Runner Mike Wardian On Crushing World Records & Work-Life Balance

Episode Date: February 20, 2023

Meet ultra-legend Mike Wardian. From running seven marathons in seven days on seven continents to running across America, Mike has accomplished a staggering amount as a runner over the years. He holds FKTs all over the globe from D.C. to Israel, and won a 100k world championship silver medal. And he’s done all of this while holding a full-time day job and spending time with his wife and young children. In today’s conversation, we dive deep into Mike’s unique relationship with running, setting his world records, his experience running across America, and how he balances all of his athletic accomplishments with his responsibilities. We also talk about how his hobbies, like pickleball, chess, cycling, and CrossFit, complement his endurance training. Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube Newsletter Sign-Up Today’s Sponsors: Seed: seed.com/RICHROLL Thesis: takethesis.com/RICHROLL Momentous: LiveMomentous.com/richroll BetterHelp: BetterHelp.com/richroll ROKA:  roka.com Peace + Plants, Rich

The Rich Roll Podcast. There's so many people that I see wait to do something big, and then something gets in the way, or they don't have the health to do it anymore, and seize the opportunity, seize the moment, because you never know what's going to happen. Runners assemble because on the show today is a 217 marathoner, a world record holder, a transcon finisher, and quarantine backyard ultra winner, Mr. Mike Wardian. I want to showcase for people that it is possible. I didn't come from a big endurance background. I didn't

know any of these things when I first started. Mike has accomplished a staggering amount as a runner over the years. He's run seven marathons in seven days on seven continents for which he set the world record. He ran across America. He holds FKTs all over the globe from DC to Israel, He holds FKTs all over the globe from D.C. to Israel. He even completed a race wearing a Spider-Man costume. And, oh, yeah, he's done all of this while holding a full-time day job and spending time with his wife and young children. And so, like, I hope when people see me now, they're like, well, if that dude with, like, the family and the job

and, you know, all these other commitments can do it, like, maybe I can do it too. In today's conversation, we discuss how he started running. We talk about setting world records, his experiences running across America and how he balances all of his hobbies and his athletic accomplishments with his family and his full-time job.

And it's coming right up, but first. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because, unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem. A problem I'm now happy and proud to share

has been solved by the people at recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs. They've partnered with the best global behavioral health providers to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders,

including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey.

When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. Okay, it's an absolute pleasure to have Mike on the show. He's super fun to talk to. I'm grateful he made the time to come sit down with me. And I hope this episode gives you wisdom and practical tools regarding endurance, motivation, time management, and just being a lifelong learner. You don't have to go fast. You just have to keep going and you have to want to keep going. If you keep doing the little things,

the big things happen. This is me and Mike Wardian. Right on. Well, let's just get into it. Super nice to have you here. I'm so excited to talk to you. Thanks, man. I don't even know where to begin.

Like your resume is so ridiculous. Like there's no way we can go through like all of the crazy accomplishments. So we're gonna try to just, I don't know, feel our way through this, but I want to begin with DC. I'm from DC. I know. And you live in Arlington. Are you from there? Your parents live there, right? My parents are from Oakton. So a little bit further out and you're from across the river. Yeah, I was from, I grew up in Bethesda. Yeah, so I was just in Bethesda last night.

Oh, wow. I mean, Bethesda now is like a city compared to when I lived there. Like when I was going to school there, it was before the subway even had made its way out there yet. Yeah, I feel like that's like the red line maybe. I don't even know. My parents live in Georgetown now.

They moved to the fun part of town after I went away to college. Yeah, that is a really nice part of town. Yeah, but it's a great running city. It's such a good city, yeah, for running. But I guess you weren't running then, right? No, uh-uh, no. You were just swimming all the time.

Yeah, I was swimming. Running came later. But I always enjoy when I go back to DC. I mean, I stay with my parents in Georgetown and then I can get right down onto the towpath or do the loop around the bridges or hit Rock Creek State Park, all of your kind of background stomping grounds.

Right, well, and I would suggest one, the next time you're there, it's a thing called the Potomac Heritage Trail, which I don't know if you've ever been on. I don't think so, maybe. No, you would know., it's a thing called the Potomac Heritage Trail, which I don't know if you've ever been on. I don't think so, maybe. No, you would know. So it's pretty awesome. So you can go right across Key Bridge,

loop down to like Roosevelt Island, and then you just go along the river and there's a trail that goes all the way out to like Key Bridge. I have done part of that. I've gone out like around Haines Point. Yes. Yeah. But that's actually a little bit different. Yeah, so like that's

if you like kind of stuck on the bike trails, but this is like dirt and there's like waterfalls and like roots and rocks and like. Oh shit.

It's fantastic. I definitely haven't done that. Yeah, yeah. You, it's one of my favorite runs in the world and it's right there, right across the bridge

from Georgetown. Yeah. Well, you'll have to provide me that route so I can upload it to my- I'm happy to take you too. Yeah, sure, whatever. One of the things that I think is so interesting and distinctive about who you are and what you do

is that you combine so many disciplines. I mean, it's one thing to be an elite athlete at the top of sport. It's another thing to, you know, kind of go off and do FKTs and all these sort of stunty sort of things that you do. But then on top of that, also to have like a robust professional career and have kids and a family, like combining all of these things seems so Herculean, like such a monumental task. And you seem to do it with a lot of like grace and ease. So before we even get into like all the accomplishments,

like how do you, you know, how does that jigsaw puzzle work for you? I think the biggest thing is I really wanna do it. Like I feel like I've always wanted to kind of meet my obligations and still like chase these like big audacious dreams and goals. And so I think if you, if you don't want to do it, like it's, it's almost impossible to do it. And, and I think a lot of people come up with reasons why they can't do something. And I look for more reasons why you can do something. And so like,

for me, I don't know if it was the same with you, but like every time you like went to the next level, you know, you'd always have people that were like, oh, you can't do it because of this or this. Like, I remember when my wife and I got engaged, like all my running friends were like, oh, your running is gonna go downhill. Yeah, like it's for sure.

Like, you're not gonna have as much time to train with us anymore. And it only got better from there. And like the same with like, when you have kids, it's like, time to train with us anymore. And, and it only got better from there. And like the same with like, when you have kids, it's like, as soon as you have kids, like you're not going to be able to be here. And then I'd rock up with like two kids in a Bob stroller and we'd be running like six thirties, you know, 10 mile run around the monuments or whatever. And that's just, you know, how, how you got to get it done. If you want to do these things, like you have to put your head down. And, and for me, it was like, you know, getting up early, um, and then figuring out ways to like, I knew I had to go to work

every day. So like, instead of driving, I started bike commuting. And then from there I started run commuting. Um, and then I just wanted to make it happen. Finding the solutions, always looking for the solutions. Yeah. But when you're plotting some audacious goal, like running across the United States, et cetera, I mean, obviously that's a family decision, right? Oh yeah.

Like how does that look? You sit down with your wife and you're like, here's what I wanna do. Yes, yeah, pretty much. Yeah. So I, I, and my wife's Jennifer and she's amazing. But you know, first, I mean, there's so many different aspects to go into that. And originally it does come down to that. Like, Hey, I want to, I want to chase this thing. You know, when would be a good time to do it? And like, and you probably know this because you've talked to a lot of people because I've listened to all your conversations

to people that have done this. And usually the best time of year is like March or maybe late February or like end of August, September. And like for me, like with work, it just doesn't work. Like the end of the cargo fiscal year is September. Like that's when the government does all their business that they're gonna do and they gotta spend all their business that they're going to do. And they got to spend all their money. So I can't do like August, September,

because I just don't have enough time. And then the kids spring break was in August, or I'm sorry, in April. And so she's like, well, you can't miss spring break. So like my time was when I get back from spring break with the kids until I'm done, right? So like we looked at that and then I had to cycle back like a year from that. And then I had to hire somebody for a company that I work for. To cover for you. To cover for me.

I was wondering like, I know you're a partner in international- Shipping. Shipping, brokerage, maritime. Like, I don't even know what that is. It sounds very Jason Bourne. Yes, import export. Yeah, like, oh, okay. What's actually happening here?

Yeah, totally. In DC, you know, approximate to the CIA. Like, you know, my conspiracy mind is. Yeah, totally. Yeah, yeah, I have a lot of passport stamps. No, it's so we do humanitarian food aid shipments. So if you ever see stuff for like world vision, save the children, food for the hungry, those types of programs. And we do shipments from the U S and it's kind of export additional grains that are coming from the farmers that are being shipped overseas.

And they're used for like feeding programs or monetization. Oh, that's cool. Yeah, so it's really cool. And it's a job that I kind of started really at the bottom, like as the secretary, kind of like get your foot in the door, go for like running around and like getting people sandwiches and then kind of worked my way up. And now I'm one of the owners of the business.

That's cool. And they're cool with you, like going off on these tangents every once in a while, as long as somebody can cover your workload in your absence. Well, and I was actually working from the road too. So like, you know, there were a couple of days where I'd come in after running for like 20 miles and it'd be like, oh, I gotta knock some,

you know, deadline out or something. Wow. Which was definitely stressful at times, but if you wanna do the thing, you gotta be prepared to do the work. Sure. So it makes sense now that you raise money on your Transcon run for World Vision,

given that that's your sort of dovetails in your career. And I know Josh, your manager, who's here right now, he's been involved with World Vision, given that that's your sort of dovetails in your career. And I know Josh, your manager, who's here right now, he's been involved with World Vision forever. Yeah, he really has. And it's cool because I got involved with them maybe 2017. One of the things I did was I ran seven marathons, seven days on seven continents. And if you won that, you got $15,000. And I was like, oh, awesome. You know, like I can use this to help, you know, offset the cost or whatever. And they're like, it's for charity. And I was like, oh, okay. Even better, I can use that to do some good. And so

that's when I first got involved with World Vision. I donated that money to World Vision then, and I saw what a good job they did with it. And I was like, hey, if I'm gonna run across the country, I'd like to do it for a good cause. And we were able to raise, I think over $120,000 for World Vision clean water projects around the world. Amazing. Yeah, it's so cool. Well, I wanna get into the Transcom,

but before we do that, let's sort of backtrack a little bit. In looking at your resume, I mean, it's so overwhelming, all the things that you've done, 2008, 2009, 2010, US 50K champion, 2008, US 100K champion, 50 mile champion for the US in 2011. I mean, there's so many like wins and like all this crazy stuff, Gobi Desert, 400K. Then you did the 10 marathons in 10 days

on all seven continents. You have the, do you still have the record for the seven marathons on seven continents? I do, yeah, I do for now. You're averaging like 245s or something like that? I think I did, yeah. Including like, I have the record in Antarctica for the fastest marathon ever run in Antarctica.

It was like two hours, 54 minutes. Um, how do you even do that? Is there a road? Like, what does that look like? Dude, it was so crazy. So, uh, I didn't know. Um, so we flew down there, um, to union glacier and it's actually surprisingly like Antarctica is at, uh, elevation. So you're kind of at like 3000 feet, which for a lot of elite athletes, that's not that high, but for coming from DC, like that's kind of high for me.

And it was a Chilean camp. ALE was the name of the company. And basically they had like a 10K track that they had plowed around the campus. And so it was kind of groomed snow, but hard pack snow and ice. And it was pretty flat until you got to the last like 3K. And then it like went down this like dip and then it was like straight uphill to the start finish area. So you just did that kind of like four times.

And do you have to put spikes on your shoes or do you wear a normal like trail shoe or? Actually, yeah, that was a really good, like, so I had all those questions too. And I wore a normal, I run for Hoka. So I ran in the Hoka Stinson at that time, it was 2017. And the second time I ran in 2019, I ran in the Evo Mafadi, which is a trail shoe.

So basically just a regular trail shoe. And when you fly in, do you have to then wait until the weather breaks and find your window? Pretty much they look for a window, weather window. And so you kind of muster in the first time it was in Punta Arenas in Chile, and then we flew in and the second time it was in Cape town. And when you look at the record,

is the record established based upon how fast you run these seven marathons or is it the total elapsed time to do all seven? Like the travel in between and all of that and like knocking them out as quickly as possible. So the record in Antarctica was just on that one leg. And then the total time is the time for each race, I think. I see.

The way that it's done, because like you wouldn't know like when you're gonna, you basically still have to finish all in, I think it's 168 hours maybe is seven days. And you still have to finish it all within 168 hours. But like, if you get a bad connection or something, I don't think they'd want to take that away. Yeah. I got you. Yeah. Where does all of this begin? Because you didn't start off as a high

school track and field athlete or anything like that, right? No, not at all. I didn't have that kind of background at all. I grew up playing a sport called lacrosse, which you know is- A sport called lacrosse. Yeah. For a lot of people, I guess don't know. all. I grew up playing a sport called lacrosse, which you know is- A sport called lacrosse. Yeah, for a lot of people, I guess don't know. Yeah, I mean, growing up where we grew up, that's what kids did. Yeah, I mean, it still wasn't one of the most popular sports.

I'd still say football and baseball and even soccer was probably more popular, but now it's like, you know, there's a professional lacrosse league. Paul Rabel. Yeah, totally, yeah, dude. Started that league. Yes, know, there's a professional lacrosse league. Yeah, Paul Rabel. Yeah, totally. Yeah, dude. Started that league.

Yes, yeah. He's a stud. It's cool what he's created. It'll be interesting to see whether it can truly capture American audience fascination. Yeah. But they're on like network TV now, the games and everything. And they've really, him and his brother have done a lot.

They really have, yeah. And what's cool is like when I was growing up, like if you wanted to see lacrosse, you'd have to get maybe ESPN 2, it'd be like one o'clock in the morning and I'd be like going down and putting the VCR tape in to like watch Syracuse play like, you know, Cornell or something.

But you played division one collegiate lacrosse at Michigan State? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So, and so that was my dream growing up was to play division one and to just see how good I could get at the sport.

And Michigan State, I'd say it was division one, but it was kind of like not the top tier. So, you know, I wasn't playing at Hopkins or Syracuse or Duke or UVA or Princeton even at that time was really good. And I got recruited to play in Denver, but like Denver wasn't even big then. Um, but it was, it was kind of a similar story to you in that, like I got recruited, but I didn't get, like, I wasn't like getting money because there was like one scholarship that they split like a couple of different ways, right? So like, it was a big deal to go away and play. And for me, it was kind of a dream come true.

But I also knew like, you know, eventually that, you know, I'm not gonna make a million dollars playing lacrosse, so. So your career ends, that chapter closes, and how and when does running enter the picture? It entered my junior year of college. So I joined a fraternity, Pikes, I don't know. Like it was whatever, it was fine. And I had a bunch of fraternity brothers.

I went to my buddy, Vince Voisin's house and was sitting at Easter dinner and his mom, Vicky Vicki Boyson had just come back from the Boston marathon. And she had like the crinkly little blanket and the unicorn medal. And it was the first time that I'd ever like met a real person that had done a marathon. And I was just like, man, if Vince's mom can run a marathon, I can run a marathon. And that was the time when I knew like that moment changed my life. Like it was like one of those seminal moments where you're just like, I don't know. There's so many like split second decisions that can change people's lives.

And that was the moment for me where I was like, I'm going to do this thing. And little did I know that, you know, I'd end up, you know, having all these experiences from that one interaction. Yeah. It's interesting. I mean, tell me more about that because somebody else could have had that experience of meeting their friend's mom and just been like, that's cool and moved on with their life.

But for some reason, a switch got flicked in you, like something got lit up. Totally. And I think it was because I had started running like when I stopped playing lacrosse and Vince and I were like working out and I was getting strong and I was like starting to run like, you know,

5K around campus. And then like every now and then I'd run like, I think I could run, you know, to like the dairy part of campus, which is like 10 miles. And I would just go and run. And then I'd be like, wow, I can't believe I made it that far

and didn't need to like stop or like take a bike back or whatever. And so when'd be like, wow, I can't believe I made it that far and didn't need to like stop or like take a bike back or whatever. And so when I was like, oh, I'm going to try to do this thing. But I was like, you know, that's one of those like lifelong goal type things where you keep saying it, but you're not sure when it's actually going to happen. And then it kind of crystallized where I was like, oh, Vince's mom can do it, I can do it. And so like, I hope when people see me now, they're like, well, if that dude with like the family and the job and all these other commitments can do it,

like maybe I can do it too. Yeah, that does seem like a very authentic driver for you. Like your motivation really is to share your experiences for the purpose of, of inspiring other people to realize like these things are within their grasp. Yeah, I hope so. I mean, I think like sometimes the things that I do, like people are like, oh man, yeah. I mean, you get this too. It's like, there's no, I don't even like driving that far. Like, um, or I, you know, that's not me or I'm not built that way. And I, I hopefully people can see what we do and say like, well, maybe it's not at that level now, but eventually it could be, or like, this is a

chance to get motivated to start to do something more than I am now. Yeah. I feel like it, it cuts both ways. On the one hand, you go off and do something so insane, people can say, well, he's got all this stuff going on and he did that, so I can at least do this. But I think at the same time, it also makes it easier for people to completely dismiss you as some kind of insane outlier and just say, well, he's whack-a-doodle.

Like that's, you know, like a normal person can't do that. There's obviously something, you know, very different about this person. Right, but I think like so many people, like I didn't start out that way, right? Like I started out like, oh, I wanna run a marathon. Like, I don't know why I didn't start out like, oh, I should wanna run a 10K or a 5K or something

because I probably didn't even know that those existed. But when you do have that kind of impetus to get started, like it quickly can snowball. Yeah. So you sign up for your first marathon. Yeah. Marine Corps or which one did you do first? It was Marine Corps.

Well, so I did the MS half marathon first because I was like, well, actually, I guess stepping back at Michigan State, I did a half marathon in a indoor track, like a one eighth of a mile track in the middle of winter because it was on my schedule. Because going back, like I said to Vince's mom, hey, it'd be great if you could help me.

And she was like, okay, sure. And she basically just went and took a book like training for your first marathon and photocopied it. And so it was like, it had one of those old schedules. It was like Monday run five miles, Tuesday run six miles. And it was like a 40 week build or something. And so whatever it said, I just did.

And so when it got to like the half marathon day, it was dumping snow at Michigan state. And I was like, okay, well, I, I'm going to do my run. I'm not, I want to do it in negative, you know, 20 degree temperatures. So I just went to this indoor track and I got my buddy Jason to run with me. And we literally like, I think I ran for like two hours or something around this eighth of a track. And I was like, if I can do that, I can do the marathon. And so then signed up for Marine Corps when I got out of school and did it with the goal of like,

I guess what I wanted to do was run the Boston Marathon. So like when I sent away to Boston, like at the time there was no internet, you sent them like a self-addressed stamped envelope and they sent me back the like little pamphlet and said like, what's your qualifying time? And that's when I was like, oh crap, like I don't have that.

You can't just sign up? Yeah, you can't just sign up. I was like, wait, what? And so that's when I signed up for Marine Corps. So did you qualify for Boston in your first marathon? I did, yeah. Yeah, okay. So I knew I had to run three hours and 10 minutes. And so I was So, uh, I knew I had to run three hours and 10

minutes. And so I was like, okay, fine. I'm going to run three hours and 10 minutes, not knowing if I could or not, but I figured if it goes really bad at Marine Corps, my parents can come and get me on the side of the course. And I still remember the, so vividly, like coming into the last mile at like three hours. And I was like, I have 10 minutes to go a mile. I was like, no problem. Like I can do this in my sleep. And then I remember, I don't, have you ever run Marine Corps? No. Okay.

So I did like when I was a kid in high school, I think I did the 10K on the same course that they would have or the 10 miler or something like that. Okay, cool. So like, you know, like the finish is like kind of uphill and it used to go, like you had to go all the way around Iwo Jima Memorial. I just remember it finishes around that memorial.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So with like 10 minutes to go, I'm like, oh, I got this like so easy. And then I just remember it being like, okay, like where's the 26 mile marker? And then at like 306, I was like, oh, I can see it. And then I was like, oh no, I have to go all the way around.

And I just remember cursing that point too, like being like, oh, that should only be like a minute and it being like two and a half minutes. So I did qualify, but it was a lot tighter than I expected. And like, I went like totally in just like lacrosse shorts and like a cotton t-shirt and like no lube, no taping, no, you know, just chafed all the, you know, everything. But all in, you run Boston and, you know,

I garner from that, that, you know, this is like, oh, this is gonna be my path now. Yeah, it was actually pretty quickly. Like I went to Boston with the goal of like breaking three hours because I quickly like determined that if you want to be a real runner, you should be able to break three hours. And I don't know why that was like an arbitrary goal. Like as a 22 year old kid, I thought that meant something, but yeah, I, I went with the goal of breaking three hours. And I think I ran 254 or so.

So I was pretty much under where I wanted to be. But the thing about it was, is just Boston just struck me. Like the energy, the vibe. Like I think you've been there before. No, I haven't actually. Wait, what? I've never seen it.

Yeah. Oh man. We gotta, yeah, you should do that. I've witnessed the New York City Marathon, but never Boston. Yeah, I mean, New York's amazing. Boston is like, oh, it's even, I mean, they're on par with each other.

So you kind of have that experience. But like, I just remember like the little kids with like orange slices, like standing there so excited to like hand them to you. And like, everyone's just jazzed and like, there's so many good athletes. Like everyone there is like qualified to be there. And it's just like this huge celebration.

And I was like, I wanna do this. And so how long between that experience and you kind of graduating into this elite level? I mean, your PR is what you're like a 217 marathon. Yeah, exactly. But that's what, 95, 96, your first Boston? Yeah, 97, I think was my first Boston. So it's really like a 10 year period then

before you start making all these US teams and winning all these races, et cetera. Yeah, yeah, well, in 2000, so I qualified for three Olympic trials, 2004, 2008 and 2012. Uh-huh. So 2004, so that's still seven years of training and learning and developing. Yeah, exactly. And in that time, are you in DC like getting coffee at the maritime shipping company? Yes. Yeah, I totally am. Yeah, and I'm running for, so I'm running for the local running stores, Pacers running.

And so I quickly like got on their team. Like at first, you know, I just walked into the running store after running 254 and I was like, thought I was a big deal, you know? And I was like, hey, you know, I ran 254. Can I be on your, you know, running team? And they were just like, dude, you're not fast enough to be on our team. But they were like, Hey, you can come to like track workout. So I basically started out in like the, you know, kind of third group. And by like two months in, I was running with the first group. And then I overheard them talking about a race

they were gonna go do this Wawa 10 miler. And I was like, I'm gonna go to that race and I'm gonna beat them all. And I ended up going to the race and did not beat them all, but I beat all but one of them, this guy, Jeff Van Horn, who owns like Lucky Feet Running and we're still friends, but like he still remembers that day. And after that race, they're like,

hey, you wanna be on our team? And I was like, yeah, dude. And I thought I had made it. One of the things about your career is that you seem to constantly be racing, right? Like a lot of athletes at your level, they'll pick their key race and they'll kind of clear their calendar

and they really focus on, you know, peaking for, you know, one or two times a season. And from what I can gather, it's almost like you're racing, it's like every weekend you're doing some crazy thing. And, you know, maybe that's just part of the whole experience or kind of part and parcel of your training approach, but it is very different from the typical elite runner. Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think that's the thing that most people started to learn about me

and something that I have been known for is like I'll race 40 or 50 times a year. And it's been less the last couple of years just because I've been doing like super long stuff. But yeah, like that like if I could, I would race as much as possible. So for people that don't know, like you ran all the way across the United States

from San Francisco, you ended in Rehoboth Beach. The last mile of that was like a 610 or something like that, right? Yeah. And then the next day you woke up and ran a 5K. Yes. In like an official,

like neighborhood race or whatever. And average like six Oh ones. Yeah, dude. Yeah. And well, and it's funny because I've won that race like six times or something. So they were like, you're coming. And I was like, for sure, I'm going to be there. And I was like, I, I got there with my brother and I was like, I have no idea how this is going to go. And I was warming up and I was like, I feel actually pretty good. Like, and so I, I went out and I was like, I have no idea how this is going to go. And I was warming up and I was like, I feel actually pretty good. Like, and so I, I went out and I was like, dude, you can't let me beat you. And my brother was like, I dropped him. And then I started like picking up people. Did you win that race? No, I totally did not win, but I, I did okay. I think I was in the top, you know, five or 10.

So the point being that you have this huge kind of diesel engine, you can be the locomotive, right? That goes all the way across the US, but you also have a little bit of jackrabbit in you. So from a training perspective, like, is that a genetic thing that you've always been able to go fast and long, or do you train for that specifically? Or how do you kind of think about that? I think I like to use both of the engines and I think the run across the country was, I had to be so disciplined. Like that was unnaturally slow running for me. I've gotten better at that over the last couple of years,

especially with the FKTs. And then I've done some of those backyard ultras. Like I know you had Harvey on and talk to him and like Harvey is similar in that he likes to race a lot too. And he kind of- And he runs to and from work and- Yeah, exactly. And so we have a lot of that in common. So we've, and we're both plant-based and all that too. So like we've shared, you know, tips and tricks. But yeah, like, so as far as, I like to mix it up and I like to keep it interesting. So I feel like if you focus only on one thing,

I mean, it might be awesome to get really good at one thing, but I don't think that you continue to evolve as an athlete and as a person. So I don't mind like not being the best at something. No, you seem to have a beginner's mind. Like we're gonna get, like you're trying to become a pickleball professional, right?

Like you do all this other stuff, which just seems insane to me. But between the lines, I see somebody who, yeah, you're not afraid to try new things. You're always trying to master a new skill. And that keeps you kind of humble and curious, right? And I'm sure that that spills over into your running. Like it all informs the larger kind of humble and curious, right? And I'm sure that that spills over into your running. Like it all informs, you know,

the larger kind of, you know, fully formed Mike Wardian. Yeah, and as far as like the ability to do it, I feel like you have, again, it's going back to like, you have to wanna do it and you have to be willing to not have success. And so if you have that want to do it and you have to be willing to not have success. And so if you're, if you have those, that mindset going in, like, you know, if I don't win, okay, fine. But like,

maybe I did better than I did the day before, or, or maybe the time before, or maybe the short run is going to help me for the long, the long runs. And then I feel like the longer ultra stuff helps me, especially when I was like running like those fast marathon times. Like when I ran my PR of 217, like two weeks later, I ran Badwater and finished third. So like- That was just two weeks later? Yeah. Oh my God. Yeah. So like, and like all the people at Badwater are like, dude, your 217 is not going to help you. You're going to be out here. And I was like, I know, I know.

Yeah. But by always like having another race a couple of weeks later, it kind of depressurizes the whole thing, right? You're like, all right, that didn't go well, but I'm gonna be here two weeks later and we'll try something different. Right, and like some people think like that's a lack of focus.

And I just think that's the way that I like to train and it keeps me motivated. So like, if you're not motivated, then no matter how well you do at a race, like it's, it's, it's going to be hard. And like, I feel like a lot of the people, and you've probably seen this in the sport too, is a lot of the people that, you know, you came up with aren't doing the sport anymore or not doing it in the way that they want, or, you know, I've already stepped away from the sport. So like, there's so many people that used to be my competitor that

aren't even racing anymore. Um, so like, that's one of the things I'm really proud of too, is like just to have longevity. Yeah. You've stayed in it. I would consider myself one of those people who's not doing it anymore. I'm doing this instead. But like, that's not a, that's, that's your choice, right? Yeah, I made that choice. Yeah. I made that choice. And some people like,

they don't wanna do it anymore, right? And I don't fault them for that, but I'm still like motivated to see, you know, what I can do. Yeah, it stayed fresh for you. Yeah. And I think like, if I had only like cared about my 5K time or my marathon time,

like it gets hard. Like it gets hard. Like it's hard to be on that edge for that long and only going for one thing. Yeah, because at some point you're just, you're not gonna be able to make that PR work for you anymore. Right.

And if you have so much invested in that, you're gonna be disappointed or it kind of drains the joy out of the whole thing. Right, it's like running with plantar fasciitis. Like you can still run with plantar fasciitis. It's just sucks. It's just not fun. Like you can train right through it.

Like I've done it and it's just sucks the joy out of every run. So over the years, you've gotten, you know, quite a bit of press for all the different things that you've done from being the fastest marathoner in a Spider-Man costume and like all kinds of crazy things. But I feel like there was an inflection point in kind of your notoriety and your resume with the quarantine backyard ultra, right?

When everyone was locked down, all the races were canceled and the whole world kind of united around this shared community quest where people all over the world were embarking on this challenge. So talk a little bit about that for people who don't know what that is. Yeah, I'll definitely talk about that a little bit. And it's funny because I didn't even know what was going on until the week that it was happening. Like, and I only saw it because my friend Maggie Guderol was doing it. And I was like, Oh yeah, that, that thing, like I've been, she'd been like, Oh, you'd be good at this. And I was like, Oh, cool. And I'd seen, you know, the backyard races, but for people that don't know, I feel like everyone that's

probably listening to your show probably does know, Maybe, maybe not. I don't know. But like the Backyard Ultra is, it's a thing, it's kind of like a century club if you were like from your drinking days where you drink like a shot every minute on the minute, but this is every hour on the hour, you have to run 4.167 miles. And it seems kind of like an arbitrary number

until you realize that every 24 hours, that equals a hundred miles. So basically in 24 hours of doing 4.167 miles, it gets you to 20 or gets you to a hundred miles. And then the way that it works is like, everyone starts the race and then the race goes, keeps going, no one can quit until everyone quits and there's two people left.

And then the race can only go one more loop until the last person quits or the second to the last person, which is called like the assist. And the way that the quarantine backyard ultra worked, which was kind of unique at the time is everyone logged into like their computer because everyone was locked down.

Right, it wasn't happening at a particular place. Everybody just did it wherever they were. Right, which was kind of like amazing. And then, and most of the time it's like outside, but because it was quarantine, there were some countries where you couldn't be outside. So they allowed people to be on treadmills or there was a woman that was like running from her sauna

in like Sweden, like out on this like frozen lake. There was people like running around like closed restaurants. Like I ran around a 0.4 mile loop around my neighborhood for, it turned out to be 63 hours. So I went like 260 some miles. Yeah. So like almost three days. And you won that, you were the last man standing.

Yes, the last person standing. And it came down to me and a guy on a treadmill in like the Czech Republic, I guess. And I feel like that, like within the ultra community or the running community, people are familiar with that format of race and it's gaining in popularity, but that quarantine backyard

really kind of made mainstream news because it was such a beautiful celebration of agency in an era in which we were all sort of deprived of agency. Totally, yeah. And I think there was just nothing else going on too. Like in that- It was a social media thing. That's what drove the entire kind of intrigue.

Right, and I think what was so neat about it too is that you did have people like, you know, running in restaurants and like, you know, they were still in the race, you know, and like, I'm running around my block and like people are, like no one's going to work. So like my whole neighborhood was out. So like I met neighbors. They all knew

what was going on. Yeah. And so like the first day, like no one really was out, but like by the second day, everyone's like, oh my God, that guy's still running around the block. And then by like halfway through the second day, like people had set up like aid stations and like all this like- Because no one has anything to do.

Yeah, no one had anything to do. So like, it was awesome. You know, people are like, and, but everyone's still kind of scared too because it's at the beginning of COVID. And so like, you know, people are not sure if they should be there or not. And so like, but it did give, you know, people something to follow. And I, and I think it was just beautiful. Like I was following the other people and I was like, I can't believe she's still running from that sauna. Like

it's like crazy. And then you're getting the different like weather too. And you know, it was the first night, it was amazing. But the second day it got super hot in DC. And so like you get hot and humid, like versus like somebody that's in their like basement, you know, like that's, it's hard. Yeah. And the DC heat and humidity is no small thing.

No, yeah, you know what that's like. But like just to have so many people come out and then, you know, mainstream media, like it was on ESPN, you know, New York Times, or not Wall Street Journal, Washington Post. And like, it got a lot of coverage. Yeah, it's cool. And that kind of format is only gaining in popularity. Like we all saw what happened last week, right?

Yeah. Like the kind of ceiling on what's possible with that 4.167 loop is just, you know, exploding. So these guys from, they were from Belgium, right? Oh dude, it was so baller, yeah. That went like 420 miles. Yeah, they crushed the record, yeah. Cause it was a big deal the year before

when Harvey, I think was the first to eclipse 300. Is that right? I might have that wrong. No, I think you're close, yeah. And what's interesting too is like the format this year, I think was they had like national teams. So like the US team versus the Belgium team versus the French team versus the Belgium team versus the French team versus the

Chinese team. And the thing I love about the format of the last man standing or last person standing, I should say, because a lot of times women win these type of things, like Courtney's one, I know you've had on the podcast and Maggie's one. And I mean, it's, it's just whoever's the stronger mentally, because like, it's not that hard to run 4.167 miles in an hour. Like most people can walk that almost. What's hard is like, you have to like do all your nutrition and you have to go to the bathroom and you can't take aid once you leave the aid station. And so like all that part is hard, you know. You left out the biggest one though. Oh, the sleep?

Sleep, yeah. Oh yeah, yeah. But you have an interesting relationship with sleep. Yes. You don't seem to need that much sleep. No, I don't. Which is like a good and bad thing. I mean, we were talking,

Josh and I were talking on the way up and he's the same way. And it's great, but like I definitely see the benefits of sleep and like I've tried to do better with that. And during the run, but like, I definitely see the benefits of sleep and like I've tried to do better with that. And during the run across the country, like I went from, you know, my normal four or five hours of sleep

to like six or seven hours. Like the first like week and a half, I was like, I was still doing my thing, like playing my video games and sending texts and emails at all hours of the day and night. And then I was just like, no, I can't do that anymore. So like, I mean, maybe there is like a certain threshold of like exertion where like the sleep

just becomes more paramount. Six or seven hours. You described that almost as if that's indulgent. Yeah. Like four or five, you're cool with that. I would just be completely debilitated. Yeah, like your whoop score would not be where you want it to be.

No, no, no. But you're fine on four to five. Yeah, I feel like that's pretty good for me. Matthew Walker would have some quality words for you. He's a sleep diplomat. Like he's like anybody who says that they can get by on four or five hours is delusional. Oh, well, yeah, maybe that's the case. I don't know, but you seem to be high functioning.

Yeah, so far so good. Although I did read like a bad study today about how it can mess with your overall like diabetes and heart disease and all these kinds of bad things. But are you just naturally waking up early or do you set an alarm and just say, I'm only gonna sleep four or five hours? Oh, no, no, I'm like waking up naturally. Yeah, so what do you get up at like 4.30 or something? Usually most days 4.45

and then I start my first workout at like 5.30 and usually that's like CrossFit or I work with a personal trainer and then I run usually after that. The CrossFit thing is super interesting. I mean, that goes back to the beginner's mind. Yeah. Like I love on Instagram, how you're always,

very transparently showing all your gym routines, which is unusual for a runner. Like they like to show the epic kind of videos of them running in a beautiful location, but you're like, no, it's these little things that I do, all these strength exercises that, you know, obviously are contributing to your longevity. Cause you're like, what are you like 48 now?

Dude, yeah, right on. Yeah, totally. Yeah, I'm 48 and yeah, I wanna be doing this for a long time. And I feel like that's helped me. And I feel like it's really helped me in the longer stuff. Like just being stronger, being able to carry like a heavier pack,

being able to keep form as the race goes on or the FKT or whatever I'm doing. And then also it's just like mentally, like it's hard. Like when you're doing like the fourth set of like dead bug plank things. And it's kind of like going into the last like a hundred meters of a race, when there's a person right on your shoulder of like dead bug plank things. And it's kind of like going into the last

like a hundred meters of a race, you know, when there's a person right on your shoulder and you're like, is it, you know, is it you or me is gonna make it to the line first. And I feel like that really, really helps. With that strength and stability, you can maintain your form under duress and strain longer and more powerfully.

Yeah, and also like I have the ability to just grind, like the ability to just put your head down and work. And I think that that's really, really helpful, especially in a race like the last man standing or last person standing where it's just, you don't have to go fast. You just have to keep going and you have to wanna keep going.

So with CrossFit though, were you doing like the classes with everyone else and they take you through? Or did you do that just alone or with a personal trainer? No, I'm doing it with my friend, Tom Mayerhofer. And so he has like this really amazing gym at his house. And so we became friends during quarantine. And so I've just been doing it with him really.

So I haven't gone to like, you know, mayhem or any of the like super bad-ass like CrossFit places yet, which I really want to do. It's a different culture from the running culture. Yeah, totally. Yeah. But it's something that I'm excited about. I was fortunate enough to do this thing called

the Spartan games during quarantine and got to see some of the, you know, beasts of the CrossFit world. And yeah, that's just something that I am really impressed with and I'd like to play around with for sure. Have you ever had periods where you were injured significantly or have you been pretty injury free?

No, so I had a couple of bouts of injury. My first big injury was in 2012, but for the most part, I've been healthy as an athlete. Our son Grant has epilepsy. And so he had epilepsy in 2011. It was kind of right after I'd set all the PRs in my marathon and longer distances, 100K, 50K. And he started getting seizures. And so we were dealing with that. And like my four hours of sleep went to like 30 minutes of sleep, you know, like it would be like my turn

to check on him or Jennifer's turn to check on him. And I ended up getting five stress fractures of my pelvis and five hernias like simultaneously. And that was the first time I was like, Ooh, maybe, maybe I'm not going to be able to be an athlete anymore. But I did kind of the same thing I've always done is like, okay, I can't run right now, but what can I do? And I just like became like the most insane, um, awkward jogger. Like I, I would just go to like you, I don't know if you know the pool,

but like, uh, Washington Liberty, it used to be called Washington and Lee high school. Yeah. So like, uh, I went there and I would just, just aqua jog for like two or three hours. Um, and came out of the pool after that and some physical therapy. And it took about three months of like letting the stress fractures heal. And then I got a hernia surgery and then came back and went from nothing to like running. Like, I wanted to run sub six minute miles

on a half marathon and ran like 114 and then started running again and started winning races again. And then the second bout was during that Spartan games. I herniated, um, my L five L six S one, uh, dis in my back. And I think I actually maybe sent you a note about that. Cause I met some people that were pretty good at getting me sorted out. And so I work with like MedStar health and was able to get my back sorted out. I remember getting a note. I'll look for that though. Cause yeah, well, we can talk about that. Yeah, yeah, totally, man. Yeah. So I got, um, one, I did a bunch of, um, you know, I'm sure they're probably having you

do like open books and that kind of stuff to like try to get your back sorted, but got that healed. And that's actually when I decided to run across the country because I was like, I've been, it's one of those kinds of things that I've been like, oh, someday I'll do that. And when that happened, I was like, I'm not taking any more chances. This is the time. Yeah. Right. And did those experiences inform like your approach to all the functional fitness and strength training stuff to kind of stabilize and prevent that from happening in the future? Well, I think that I was doing it already,

but that's when I was like, hey, this is, I think had I not been doing that, I would have been an even worse predicament and not able to recover as quickly as I did. So when I got injured at the Spartan games, that was the strongest and fittest I'd ever been. Cause I was getting ready to run across the country. Right. And, and I was like, then I got hurt and I was like, oh, I might not ever have this chance again. And I was like, there's no way I'm going to

risk not taking advantage of all the resources that I have. not taking advantage of all the resources that I have. Have elite runners approached you with curiosity about your strength training stuff? Cause I feel like there's a lot of room for kind of growth and most runners, especially elite runners, they're just doing a lot of the running and the kind of trope is like the gym stuff, like whatever, I don't have time for that.

Or they're worried about putting on weight. Suddenly they're gonna snap their fingers and look like Ryan Hall. Oh my gosh. Dude, he is like such an inspiration, dude. Incredible, right? Dude, so cool. And I saw him

because he was at that first world marathon challenge with me. And I thought, oh man, he's gonna be my competition. Not knowing, like I knew he hadn't run, but I was like, still, he's like a 204 marathoner. Like he could not run and still run like a 230, right? How much, Josh, how much weight did Ryan put on?

Do you know? Yeah, like 35. 35, at least, right? Well, he fluctuates a little too. Yeah. Like, so he'll like get bigger and then cut. Yeah, his bulk and his cut. Yeah, yeah.

He got over 200. Yeah. And what was his weight at the elite level of Maratoni? He was like 127, he told me. Yeah, it varied. But that was like, he was too light when he was under 130. Right.

So like, he was always that fine line of light. That's a 70 pound swing though. Yeah. And he could probably still crush, it looks like he's out there running a little bit these days. Yeah, no, it's fun, man. And so hopefully someday I'll get to do

some fun adventures with him. Right. But I think between the two of you guys, because you're doing a lot of strength training, but you're maintaining a runner's physique and you're convinced that this is contributing to your longevity and like your power and like all of these things.

I think that there's really an opportunity for the running community to, you know, embrace some of the stuff that you're doing in a bigger way. Well, and it's awesome. Like I every day have someone that like says like, oh man, I do your exercise. Like at the pickleball tournament I was at last weekend, I had three people come up and say like, Hey man, like I, I, I follow you and I do your exercises. And I was

like, that is music to my ears. Like, I love hearing that. And I think so many people are so intimidated, like either by the cost or like going to a place or not knowing what to do when they get there. And so like, just to have like something that's free that they can just be like, I mean, it's not everything, but it's like a place to get started. Right. And so like, that's great. Like, and it's making them better. Like I, yeah, I can't ask for anything more than that. All right. So we have a tradition here on the show

of interviewing more than a couple TransCon runners. We've had Ricky Gates on who did it self-supported. That's a whole other level of insanity. Oh my God, I talked to Ricky, yeah. Right? Robbie Ballinger, Hella Sidibe. I think Robbie did it in 75 days. Hella did it in 84. Yeah. I'm correct. I don't know how long it took Ricky, but longer because he was doing his own thing. Yeah. And when he did some paddling

in there. Yeah. And he had like a budget. And he was making a documentary at the same time. Totally. Yeah. And he had to push like, he had to like the hard part for him is he was going across the desert by himself, like pushing like a cart. So like, yeah. He had some dark, did you watch the documentary? Oh man, I watched it.

I read the book. There's some dark moments of the soul. Oh yeah. At that, you know, when he's, he had to like crawl into a cave for a while and lick his wounds. Yeah. Yeah, I think he really met his maker on that one.

But in your case, you set this goal of doing it in 75 days, which is how long it took Robbie. You ended up doing it in 62 days, right? So you're running in excess. To do that, you had to run in excess of 50 miles a day. Yeah, and I actually did a longer route than a lot of people too, because I went all the way to Rehoboth

and there was a bridge I couldn't get across, so I had to go around it and- Yeah, they won't let you run across the Chesapeake Bay Bridge, right? Yeah, the Bay Bridge, yeah. Yeah, and I called the guys in charge of it and he was like, no. Yeah, well, most people end in like DC or New York

or they don't go all the way to the ocean. Yeah, exactly. Or yeah, pretty much. And so, and I mean, that works, but like I wanted it to be all the way ocean to ocean. And so I actually messed up when I planned it. I started at San Francisco City Hall thinking I could just run across the Golden Gate

and put my feet in there, but that's not the ocean. So I had to run like 10K the wrong way the first day to get over to Ocean Beach. Oh, yeah, yeah. It's not that much further, but a little bit. Yeah. Enough, yeah, I got you. And Route 50, is that a typical route

or is that unique to go that route? It's pretty unique. I think a lot of people go a little bit different. Like some people go like Route 66. Other people kind of go a little bit higher so that they can get to New York because like the fastest route for, if you're gonna go for the record or something,

you wanna probably go like San Francisco City Hall to New York City Hall. And you kind of go like through, I think it's Yosemite. You go a little bit through there and kind of across that way. I wanted to run Route 50 because I called the project Running Home

and I actually live on Route 50 in Arlington, like Arlington Boulevard. So I was like, wow, I didn't even know that you could run Route 50. And actually Route 50 ends in Ocean City, Maryland. So a little bit further south. So a couple of days after I finished the run in Rehoboth, I went and ran down.

Just to complete it. Yeah, to complete it. Because you're so detail-oriented and compulsive. Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. In looking at like the other people who have done this, some of the common themes that come up are like a greater kind of appreciation for the beauty of our country,

but also like the people because you're meeting so many different people along the way. And there is this sense that we're at a kind of unique moment where we feel divided and we can't communicate with each other, et cetera. But if you talk to Ricky or Robbie or Hela,

they'll say, yes, we had some negative encounters with trucks and cars and a few people along the way, but by and large, and for the most part, like it's kind of a beautiful experience of really connecting with people, boots on the ground, and all these different areas as you're passing so slowly through these various, you know, areas. Totally, yeah.

And I feel like you also had Mike Posner on, right? Oh yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah. Cause I like started following him. We should lump him on. I mean, he walked, but like, I totally didn't even think about that. You're absolutely correct.

Dude, I was petrified of getting bit by a rattlesnake in Colorado because of what happened to him. So yeah, you're absolutely right. And it's funny because people will be like, oh, you ran 52 miles a day. But really, I ran like five miles at a time, four or five miles at a time. The first week, I was too aggressive and I was running like 10 miles before seeing my support crew. But then I quickly was like, oh, I need more help. And you do get a really good feel for our country. And I can't believe how Team America I am right now.

Like I love our country. Like I was so shocked at how much beauty I found. Like I've been a lot of places all around the world, all around the country, but like that little section of the country route 50 and kind of like, they call it America's loneliest highway in Nevada. Like, and you're going through like places like right near like area 51, like from Ely to, I think it's Baker maybe is like the darkest place in the lower continental United States. So like,

it's just unbelievably gorgeous, like just nothing, nothingness. And I read so many books along the route, but like, I was reading books, like Stephen King has a book where like people are getting like snatched from like route 50, like right where I was running. And, you know, so it's like, you get like all these kinds of different experiences, but yeah, one of the best things was like just rolling up to like a town. Like we were in, I was telling Josh this actually, cause he was watching like Top Gun Maverick last night. And I was like, oh, I saw this in Syracuse, Kansas at this theater from like 1934.

And it was like all locals and my wife and kids had flown in. It was the only time I saw them during the trip. And like, we went and saw Top Gun, like the weekend it came out after I'd run, you know, 50 miles that day. And then we had dinner at a local like restaurant, like the Black Bison or something. But like the town was literally like one of those towns from like, it looked like a movie set, you know, it was like one strip and

it was like old school movie theater. Yeah. Like state farm office, restaurant and then you know lake that way you know signed and it was like so many experiences like that or like uh we went to this place i think it's in indiana instead of uh you know dairy queen it was called dairy king it was a complete knockoff of like dairy queen and i don't know if Dairy Queen knocked off Dairy King or, but it was like, shockingly, they had like vegan ice cream. They had like vegan, like 10 vegan options on the menu, like hamburgers, hot dogs, like, and literally I was starving, but it was actually quite good. Like, and I was shocked at how many options I found for like plant-based foods along the route. Like I was expecting, but it was actually quite good. And I was shocked at how many options I found

for like plant-based foods along the route. Like I was expecting to just not have a lot of choices. And I was surprised at how many choices there were. Yeah, the diet thing, I mean, that's evolved for you, right? You were sort of a long time vegetarian who has been increasingly more flirtatious with the 100% plant-based. Yes. Yeah. Upgrade. Yeah. Upgrade. Well, and I guess I'm still not a hundred percent vegan

cause I, I still eat honey. And so like, that's why I said flirtatious. Yeah, exactly. So I haven't been able to give up honey. Uh, and I don't know if I ever will, but yeah, I definitely love that aspect of my life and that I've been lucky enough to find, you know, that I think when you and I were growing up, like the common mentality, especially like playing a sport like lacrosse or football or something is like, you need me to be strong, to be able to compete or whatever. And I just started questioning that. And then slowly like took out one thing and see how I felt and then took out enough.

Like I stopped eating red meat in high school and stopped eating chicken in college. And then I was like, oh, I still feel good. I still feel great. And then I started being like, oh, I actually feel a little bit better. And then my recovery has been the thing that most people are impressed with.

And I definitely feel like that has something to do with it. Yeah, do you think that as you continue to make those tweaks in your diet, that that's improving your recovery or is that like the variable that you're looking at? I think it's something, I think it's just feeling good. I feel like when I eat the way that I do, that you're looking at? I think it's something, I think it's just feeling good. Like I feel like when I eat the way that I do,

like I feel better and I also feel like ready for the next workout or the next adventure or whatever it might be. Yeah, your recovery seems like it's off the chain. Like you're able to just get up and go, go, go, go. Yeah, I mean, I think that, and what's cool is like, I think there's a, and I don't know if it's a misconception or it's just a common mentality about like, as you age, like you're not going to be able to recover as well. And I just don't buy into that. Like, I,

I feel like I've still been able to recover just as well as I had before. I think what happens is I just have more obligations. Like the older you get, you just have more stuff going on and it just gets harder to maybe focus. But I don't feel like the recovery has been any less than it was. When you're preparing to run across the United States, what does that training program look like? When you're preparing to run across the United States, what does that training program look like?

Like how do you approach a goal that massive? It was actually weird. So first off, I talked to a lot of people. Like I talked to Robbie. I didn't talk to Hella because I didn't know him at that point. Now I do. I would have. I talked to Ricky Gates.

I talked to as many people as I could. A guy named Phil McCarthy. I don't know if you know him or not. I don't know him. He's like a New York based guy. Jason Romero, who's another guy who's run across the country. Talked to, yeah, just anyone I could that had done it.

And I joined like a Facebook group, like US Transcon Crossers. I think Robbie talked about that as well. Yeah, exactly. There's a lot of- Everybody wants to help, right? Yeah. They have this collective wisdom about common mistakes.

Like don't run on I-70 in Colorado, or you're gonna get booted off. Like I think Robbie actually had to jump like a thing when the cops came or whatever. And I don't know. Yeah. So I tried to talk to as many people as I could. And what I realized is there's, it's almost like, I think people think when you're getting ready to run a hundred miles, like you're going to be running a hundred miles in training. And that's not really the way that it works for most people. And so I just realized like, I'm not gonna ever be able to do,

like my friend Pete Kostelnik, I talked to also who has the record. And he was like waking up and doing like a marathon every day, right? And I was just like, I just don't, that's not what I wanna do. And so I started doing a lot of cross training, uh, did a lot of CrossFit doing a lot of like strength training. I wanted to put on like three or four pounds of

muscle. Like usually I'm like 140 to 142 pounds. And I wanted to get up to like 146, 147, just so I'd have something to give away, uh, as the run went along. So I wanted to put on weight. I wanted to do one kind of simulation race. So I did a race in Sri Lanka called the Ultra X Sri Lanka, which was like a five day stage race where you are running anywhere from like a marathon to like 40 miles in extreme temperatures, because I knew like, I going to not have the options. Yeah. I'll have,

and also like, I wanted to, to get the heat and humidity because I knew that we had a trip with the fan. Like you were saying, like, how did you make it work? Like we planned a family trip to the Galapagos with the family. Cause I figured like once a lifetime trip, family will all go to the Galapagos, we'll have a great time. And then like, no one will need me for a couple of weeks. And then that's three weeks into the Transcon. And then by the time people are like, oh, where's, you know, like I'm starting to miss my dad,

like I'll almost be done. And so like kind of got all that lined up, but I didn't do a ton of running. I actually did less running than I normally do knowing that I kind of had a huge base of years and years of just stacking runs and workouts. And the last, it was ridiculous, but like you and I both talked about earlier, it was like, I loved a race. I turned down more races in amazing locations and opportunities than I ever have in my life because I was like, is that going to get me across the country? No, then I'm not going to do it. So it was like, I think that was for me, one of the hardest things was like running less than I want to, because I don't wanna injure myself or put myself in a bad spot training wise.

And then putting on weight, knowing that you're gonna hopefully give it back to the running gods, which is what exactly happened. Like there's no way that you can eat as many, like when you say like someone like Michael Phelps eats like 13,000 calories a day or something, like I don't know how many calories you've tried to eat a day, but like-

No, that's a job. Like that sounds challenging and not fun. It's just not fun. Like by the end of the TransCon, I didn't wanna eat anymore. Like if I could have taken that fuel from the matrix where it's like everything you need in like a gruel and you could just drink it

and it would be done. Like I would have done that 100% of the time. How much weight did you lose? Like when you completed it, were you significantly lighter? Yeah, so I started at 146 and I finished at 134 or so. That's not too bad though. It wasn't too bad.

And it quickly came back. So like, but I sacrificed, like all my little muscles that I had built up from CrossFit were just evaporated. Like I was like, oh no, my little biceps gone. I ran across the country, but I got to turn in my CrossFit man card. Yeah, pretty much.

But I like that notion of just becoming strong, stable and fresh. You have this huge base and the discipline, as you mentioned earlier, was really about holding back because you're so used to running fast and far, it would be very easy for you, at least early on, to kind of overdo it and dig a hole for yourself. So just being like really cautious

and like meeting out the days, like, you know, in a very methodical way and kind of building the fitness as you go. Like I talked about James Lawrence, the iron cowboy, did like 101 Ironmans. He was like, he barely did any running at all before that. He was like, I just, I'll get fit for that as I go. Cause it's so long.

There's only so much I can do to get ready for it. And we can debate the wisdom of that, but I can see the logic. Yeah, and that being said, like we didn't touch on this, but in 2019, I did a test where I ran across Israel and set the fastest known time on the Israeli national trail. And that's like 600 miles or something, right?

Yeah, it's a thousand kilometers or so. And I did it in about 10 days. So like a hundred kilometers a day. And I knew like what that meant. Like, and that to me was like, like if you wanna go for the real record, like to run across the country, that's like 72 miles a day.

And that's like, those are big days. Like, and going across Israel, like I had days that were like 20 hour days and you're going up and down mountains and navigating. And I was just like, I know what that means. So like, when I hear people say like, oh, I'm gonna do it in like 40 days. I'm like, you don't even,

you don't know what you're saying because like, it's not like the running's one part of it, but then there's like, where are you going to stop the RV? Where are you going to get food? Like who's going to do the laundry? Like who's going to, like, how long does it take you to tape your feet? Like, do you know how long it takes to tape your feet in the morning? Like, are you going to make yourself take a shower? And then every night I was doing a Facebook or Instagram post. So like, that was like an hour, hour and a half every day, trying to remember what happened during the day,

who threw a hamburger at you, like the person that stopped their car to wish you well, or try to run you off the road or whatever happened. Yeah, you were pretty good about that. You know, always taking photos with people that were running with you, like everywhere you went, it's cool. And even though you did this in 62 days,

you still managed to go see Top Gun and go to Dairy King and like read a book here and there. I read like 32 books. Wow, like before you went to battery night? No, I was listening to- Or audio books. Audio books. Okay, all right, that's different. Yeah, so I was listening to audio books. Wow. Yeah. Like before you went to battery night? No, I was listening to- Or audio books. Audio books. Okay.

Yeah, so I was listening to audio books. That's multitasking. Yeah, I was listening to your podcast a lot. Like you, thank you again, because you guys helped me get through it for sure. Like it was- That's cool. And especially I love the long form

because like you really get into it with people. And so it's, you know, I remember one day in the middle of Nevada listening to you guys talk and I was just like, man, this is so awesome. Like, I can't believe like I, cause I was thinking of like, cause I, and I also read a bunch of the old books, like, you know, tales from the breakdown lane and like my life walking around the country and stuff. And I was just thinking like, those guys were like going to pay phones, like to check in with their family. Like I'm like on my AirPods, like calling my wife,

like she's listening to cars like zip by me, like freaking out, you know, every day. And then eventually by like two weeks in, she's like, there's another truck. I was like, yeah, another truck. But like, I had those kinds of resources that people before me didn't have. Yeah, and the GPS,

everyone knows where you are all the time. Oh, for sure. You've got an RV. Yeah, yeah. So did you have like, what was the crew situation? Did you have multiple people coming in and out or like one guy who was with you the whole time? Yeah, so I hired a guy. So Eric Bells is his name.

And that was the other thing was like, how do you get crew? So like I had to figure it out. So my friend, Carl Meltzer, I don't know if you know him, like Speed Go, but I know who he is. Yeah. So like he set the record on the Appalachian trail and, uh, he's run like the pony express trail. And so, um, I talked to him and it was, it was lucky, man. It was like my buddy from Michigan state said like, Hey, my friend, uh, cruise people. And I was like, whatever, you know, like this guy cruise people at like mother of the woods, like 10 K or something. And he's like, no, hey, my friend crews people. And I was like, whatever, you know, like this guy crews people at like Mother of the Woods,

like 10K or something. And he's like, no, no, he crews like real people. And I was like, okay, sure, give me his name. And so I call Eric and I'm like, hey man, I heard you crew people. He's like, yeah, I crew people. And I was like, oh, cool. Like, who have you crewed?

Like, what are we doing here? And he's like, yeah, I crude like Carl Meltzer. I was like, really? And so I text Carl, I'm like, Carl, do you know some guy named Eric? Is this guy lying? Yeah, yeah. And he's like, dude, Bells?

Yeah, hire him. I was like, okay, cool. I was like, oh, okay. And so- So you got the guy. So I got the guy and then my dad, it was just gonna be my dad and I, and then my brother and I were like, dude, that's not gonna work.

And my sister, and she's like, you can't just be with dad by yourself for like two months. And I was like, okay, we should get somebody else. And so I was so glad I did, because I mean, my dad's awesome, but like that's a lot of work for anyone. Like just one person, like that's just impossible. So like I had my dad, Eric, and my dad's friend.

And he and my dad would kind of like be there and not be there, but Eric was always there. So he was kind of my crew chief. And you had some scraps with people throwing hamburgers at you and trucks trying to drive you off the road. Like what was the, you know, what were some of the- Yeah. Dramatic. That was definitely traumatic. trucks trying to drive you off the road? Like what was the, you know, what were some of the dramatic?

That was definitely traumatic. Like I think every day there was like drama as far as like- Every day? Yeah, every day. With people, you know, just, I think a lot of it times, it's just people being surprised that you're out there and it makes them uncomfortable.

And then they kind of get mad that they feel uncomfortable. And then they're like, all right, well, I'm gonna, you know, buzz you a little bit closer than I have to, or have you ever been coal rolled? What does that mean? Oh my God, it's this thing. I didn't even know it existed until I got to Indiana,

but basically like a diesel truck, they can get up next to you and they downshift and it blows like this. Oh, all the exhaust comes out? Yeah, the black smoke comes out. And if they do it right, they can actually spray like diesel out the back of the like exhaust at you.

I did not know that was a thing, but it is a thing. So doing that on purpose? Yeah, so like doing that on purpose. That's so cool. Oh, it was crazy. I had one little old lady, it was like six, I'd start every day at like six in the morning and go to like, try to end about six at night.

So like 12 hours of running or walking or whatever. And it was like 6.30 in the morning. This little old lady like comes around the corner, sees me and just flicks me the bird. Like, I'm like, it's 6.30 in the morning, man. Like how, like what, how can your day be so bad already that you're just in a bad mood about something?

So, but I've said this to a few people, and I think you mentioned this, but like for every two or three people that were terrible or not happy that you're out there, there was 20 or 30 people that were so stoked that you were there. And we had people come out that had been looking forward to this, like since I started, you know, and this one guy had passed away on the operating table, got revived, came

back and decided he wanted to run with us. So like he showed up and I guess he had like told us at the beginning, like, Hey, I just wanna run a mile with you. And I was like, dude, you're gonna run as many miles as you want. So like, why don't you set the pace? So like that whole morning, like he set the pace and I just stayed behind him and he ran 10K with us. Like he had not been able to like,

he wasn't even alive like three months before that. Like he passed away and came back. And we had another guy with AFib that came out to West Virginia and looked for the steepest climbs on my route because he's like, I can't run with you that long, but he just wanted to hike with us up one of the climbs, like stuff like that.

That's cool. Dude, it was, yeah, it was everything I hoped it would be. That's so cool. Yeah, I mean, I just know from watching Ricky's documentary, like the most heartwarming sequences are when he has these incredible encounters with random people, like the guy who wanted to give him money. Yes, oh my God, we had that so many times.

Really? Yeah, it was amazing. We actually had a woman who sent her mom and dad, who she knew they were driving out on route 50. She sent them to find us and to donate money, but like, they weren't sure they wanted to donate the money. Um, so they, they were like quizzing us about where it was going to go and stuff. And I was like, man, if, if, if you don't want to, it's fine. Where exactly is this $40 gonna end up? At Dairy King?

Yeah, exactly. I was like, it's fine. You don't have to. Vegan ice cream. Yeah, exactly. World Vision can wait. No, actually there is a better story. So on the, have you ever ridden the Katy Trail?

It's in Missouri. It's basically like the C&O Canal, but it's in Missouri. And what's so cool is like, and you probably see this when you go places. Like, I think one of the things I love the most about our country is like, people are so proud about where they live and they take so much pride and they have so much reverence for it. Like if you go anywhere near Missouri, they'll tell you about how cool the Katy Trail is. And like, they think it's like the most unique thing in the world. And it is pretty unique, but it's just the C&O Canal. It's like basically what we have in DC,

you know, it goes from Georgetown to Hagerstown. Right. And so like, it's awesome, but it's like, it's, it's similar to what there is around the world. But like, they had like the, the head of the park service come out and meet me. They had like the mayor of Jefferson City, which is the capital of Missouri come out. But like one of my favorite experiences is like I had these little old lady and man come out and the guy's like, hey, we wanna support you. Our son's like a big fan.

We came out, they like waddle up and they're like hokas and they're like, we were our hokas. I was like, no way, that's awesome. And he reaches in his wallet to give me a $50 bill and she reaches over and slaps his hand. She's like, no, no, no. And so he gives me like a $10 bill. And what I loved about that interaction was like,

it didn't matter that they didn't give they didn't give us, you know, 50 bucks or whatever. What was it? You could just see like that that's been their relationship. And like, he's the like big spender, you know, like he's like, he's coming from the heart. He's like the head. Yeah. Yeah. But like they make such a little perfect couple, you know, and like those interactions, like is something like so unique and something that you wouldn't get a glimpse of someone's life if I hadn't, you know, been doing it in that way. Yeah, and you ran into some trans con runners

along the way, right? Like other people that were doing it or coming from the other direction? Yeah, I ran, well, I had two friends doing it. So Richard Donovan, who does the seven marathon, seven day, seven continents, he was doing it. And so we actually met in Missouri, like right off the Katy Trail.

He was going east to west and I was going west to east. And then I had another friend that was going kind of like a Northern route, but I had a guy that I ran into, again, I think it was in maybe Kansas and it was in the middle of nowhere, dude. It was like 11 o'clock in the morning, like between two towns, but like far, like 20 miles.

And it was just kind of hot, like 95 degrees. And I see this guy, shirt off, stroller. Like, I'm like, there's no way that guy's just out for a run, like around his block, you know, like out in the middle of nowhere with a stroller. Yeah. I'm just like, that's gotta be another trans con runner. And I was like, Jennifer, I'll call you back. And I like run across the street and I'm like, dude, are you running across the country? He's like, yeah. Are you running across the country? I'm like, yeah. And it was like, dude, I needed to see somebody else doing this.

And I was like, where'd you come from? He's like Norfolk. And I was like, oh no way, Norfolk, Virginia. He's like, yeah. I was like, how long ago did you leave? And he's like, I don't know, 15 days. And I was like, what? I was so excited because I was like, going across the Western states, like you could be in Nevada for like seven or eight days.

And so I was watching my friends go from East coast to West coast and they'd be like, oh, I'm in Massachusetts. Now I'm in Pennsylvania. Now I'm in Illinois. And I'm like, I'm still in Nevada. Like, and then going across Kansas, like everyone was like, you're gonna hate your life.

And I actually loved it. I thought it was amazing, but it's a humongous state. Like I was running across Kansas for nine days, like just insane. Never ending, never ending. Yeah, I can't remember who it was. It was either Robbie or Hela talking about, like when you go West to East,

after you get over the Rockies and then you're going, you have these long flat expanses, et cetera, but you kind of think it's this slow downhill all the way to the East coast. And then you hit like the mountains around West Virginia and it just destroys you. So I don't know if Route 50, like where that actually,

that tracks with what these guys were talking about, but they said that was like a soul crusher because you're getting really close and then it's like this wall that you hit. That's totally true. Yeah, and I knew that going in just because I'm from around here. And I think so many people like think the Rockies

are so imposing and they really are. Like there was big days and big climbs, but the little climbs, I mean, that's what makes Barkley so hard. Like I've done that race a couple of times. That's the one thing that, yeah, you haven't cracked that one. No, dude, not even close. Like I haven't even made it a single loop yet in time. So, but like, I know like the short little climbs of Appalachia and East coast

are, are legit. And I knew that going in and I was like, I think my route had 130 some thousand feet of elevation gain. And I got to like West Virginia and I was like at 90,000. I was like, well, there's 30,000 feet coming up in the next couple of days. 30% of your grade remaining. What was the hardest point? I mean, did you have like some breaking moments or? Yeah. I mean, I think there were a couple of hard parts. Like I'd never been away from my family that long. So like, that was really hard for me. Like I wasn't expecting it to be that hard just from traveling the world and being gone on all these adventures. Um, I wasn't expecting to miss them as much as I did. Um, that was, that was hard. But like, as far as like physically,

like each and every day was so hard. Like that last like 10 miles every day was like finishing a hundred miler. Like it was really, really hard. I was not expecting that. I figured kind of what we were saying earlier is like, as you go, you're just going to get stronger and stronger and stronger and stronger. What I didn't realize is like the longer you go, you're getting so strong, but you're also just getting so much more tired. So it's like the strength, it's almost balanced out

or like in some days it could be an kind of unequal. But I think the worst thing was I had about 500 miles to go and a truck veered over the white line and tried to like scare me, hit me, I'm not sure. And I was in the middle of a stride and I had to stop running because he got that close. Like if I would have kept swinging my leg, I would have crashed into his bumper. And so I had to like kind of veer off the side of the road. And at that moment I felt my hamstring pop and I was like, Oh man, this is not good. And I still had 10 miles

to go for the day. And everyone's like, yeah, you should just get in the car. And I was like, no, man, I'm trying to average like 52 miles a day. So I was like, I'm just going to walk it in. Um, and that was a really low point. Like I couldn't put weight on my, on my right leg. I, um, yeah, I was, I was like so mad because I'd been so disciplined, like every day, not overdoing it, you know, taking care of my feet, taking my socks off every time I come into the car, like putting on sunscreen, like putting on chapstick, like doing all the little annoying things to make sure that I get there and to have somebody kind of ruin that or potentially ruin

that for like no reason that I could see other than me just being on the road. Like I was really just kind of mad at the world and life and, and yeah, I didn't, I didn't know if I was going to be able to run. So how did you bounce back from that? Just get, get in the car, get massage or how did that get worked out so you could bounce back and get back on it? So instead of like it taking like two hours to go 10 miles, it took like three and a half hours to finish it off for that day. I got in the car, I called my personal trainer, my guy, Jesse.

And I was like, Jesse, what do you think? He's like, is it black and blue? I'm like, I don't know. I can't put weight on it. I can't even like get out of it. You know, like, I don't know if you've ever been that hurt where you can't like take your shorts off. You're like, this really, really hurts. I basically like cried myself to bed basically. And like, it was like, I, I don't know what to do. Like, I don't want to, he's like, don't stretch it anymore. Don't really do anything. If it swells up, like he's like, try to put some ice on it, which I did. But he's like, I don't know if that's going to really help.

And a lot of times, I don't know if you do this, but if I turn my ankle or stuff, I actually just leave it and don't put ice on it. Cause I want the blood flow to pump through there. Or you do like a little bit of ice and then let the blood come kind of rushing back. So you get, get like that burst of blood flow to it. And I woke up the next day and it was still kind of hurting as I was like taping my feet and putting my shoes on. And I was just like, I'm just going to walk for the first hour and see how it goes. And then I came to like a kind of a slight downhill and I

was like, well, we're going to see how this goes. And I just started running, like shuffling, really not really running. And I was like, I don't feel it hurting. And then I continued to run the rest of the day. And then if I'd run, I don't know if you've ever done like a hamstring, but when I've done it, like if you push too hard,

like it starts to twinge. As soon as it did that, I would just start walking. And I just did that for the whole day. And it just sort of sorted itself out. Yeah. You're lucky. Dude, so lucky. Yeah.

Like I was just thinking like 500 miles of walking, this is gonna take, instead of taking 500 miles would be about 10 days, this is gonna take 20 days, right? Or more. Like I'm- Right. Like that's just gonna mean,

like, I'm not gonna finish anywhere close to where I wanna finish. But I mean, I felt like I could still walk on it, but I was like, oh, this is just gonna be terrible. What I extract from that is that the little things are the big things. It's all about like, you know, the fact that you race so much that, you know,

for the most part without, you've been able to like sidestep injuries and, you know, have all these incredible achievements. It's really a function of consistency, like waking up early, showing up every single day, paying attention to those small things, the details, whether it's taping your toes or making sure you got lube in your, you know,

in your armpit or whatever, you know, your inner thigh or whatever it is like those tiny things, this effort to, you know, control all the variables that are within your control. And yet at the same time, in the story you just told, like you can't anticipate everything. There's always going to be something that can derail you. But when you're paying attention to as many of the things that are within your control as possible, that's really kind of the path towards achieving. Achieving the big goals are about like doing

the tiny little things every day. Yeah, the annoying little things. Like the things you don't wanna do, right? Like no one wants to wake up an hour early to tape their toes. Like at least I don't like it. That's not what like makes me excited or like making sure that you've gone to the bathroom three times before you show up at the start line. And it's not like I started out doing it this way.

Like, I think, I think one of my favorite talks that as far as like the audience was like, I was at the San Francisco marathon and they're like, you know, you've done this talk a million times, I'm sure where it's like, you know, tell me your race day tips. And it's like, you know, wake up two hours before the race and, you know, eat. And then, you know, what do you eat a bagel or whatever it is. Right. And I was like, you know, I'm going to do a different talk today. I'm going to tell you all the things I've done wrong. Like, so I've, the reason I can tell you what to do is because I've done everything wrong. Like I've shown up with races with no shoes before and like had to borrow my buddy's shoes because I was like, oh, I'm for sure put them in my bag. And so now if people follow me on Instagram, they see like lay

out my kit the night before, because I've showed up without safety pins. I've showed up without the right chip, you know, in South Africa where you have to buy the chip ahead of time. You know, I've rocked up to the race, uh, without lube in the Gobi desert. And I was like, knocked out of the race because I had gastro intestinal problems. And had it not been for some guy on a moped driving by with like diaper cream, I would have been still in the Gobi desert somewhere. So like I learned all the things to do because I've done all the things wrong in the past.

And so like if you keep making mistakes and you don't learn from them, that's a problem. But if you realize like, oh, maybe I should lay my kid out the night before so that I don't show up without- Right, it's no big mystery. It's like basic common sense kind of things and like planning ahead.

Right. But like going beneath the surface on all of that, like I'm interested, that stuff's all fine, but like, what is it that's like driving you? Like what's behind all of this that is compelling you to tackle these challenges? Like, what are you trying to learn about yourself or what is it that you're kind of exploring internally? Like what is the, you know, what is the teaching that you're extracting from

all of these adventures? I think at the base level, it's, I want to see if I can do it. I want to see if it's possible for me. And if it's not possible now, is it something that I want to invest in that it will be possible in the future? So, but why is it important to you to try to see if you can do these things? I don't know. I think, I think I'm always questing to be better. Like, I think I want to, I want to get the best out of myself and I feel like right now it's through these kind of big ridiculous challenges.

And I think I wanna showcase for people that it is possible. Like I didn't come from a big endurance background. I didn't know any of these things when I first started. Like I started like so many other people with like a little goal. And then from there I was like, maybe I can do something else.

And eventually I'll reach something that I can't do. And then you have to decide if you wanna keep going and try to do it. Like right now- Like Barclays? Yeah, like Barclay, right? I know that it's possible, people have done it, but like, is it possible for me?

Why is that so, you know, intractable? Like what is it about that race that just cracks everyone? I think the thing, well, for me, I don't have a lot of the best skills for it. Like I think like you have to be really, there's a couple of ways I think you can do it or like it looks to me that you can for it. Like, I think like you have to be really, there, there's a couple of ways I think you can do it, or like, it looks to me that you can do it. Like you can just keep going to the race so that you just put the time in. Like I, I said, it's kind of like pledging, right? Like you just keep showing up and like, eventually, eventually you get hazed enough where

you are like, okay, I know where the book is. And, or I know what he means when he says like the coal road or like go past the sofa on the lily of the valley. Like I know what all the like flowers are that he's talking about. And so I've learned the lexicon. I've put my time in. I know all the candy trails, like the regular trails and I know what the candy trails, like, you know, the regular trails and I know what bird

mountain looks like. And then you just have to get lucky with weather. Like, I think the biggest thing for Barkley is like getting decent weather, because if you get the fog that comes in a couple of times when I've been there, like I'm not seeing you like, and so the only way to get through it is to know the course really well, be really incredible at navigation and get lucky with weather. And then you have to have the fitness. So is that something you're going to go back to? I'd like to, yeah. I mean, I think, but if you don't want to do the work, I don't think you should take a spot from somebody that's willing to do the work. So like, if you're just going there, just to like say that it's like, oh, I did Barkley.

Like, I don't wanna take someone's spot unless I'm ready to like fully commit. Yeah, so what are the big goals that are looming out there that you're thinking about right now? Yeah, I think this is actually one of the hardest things, right? Like coming off of like a run across the country, like everyone's like, oh, what's next? And, and so my pat answer that, and it's something that I wanted to do actually before

the run across the country is the Appalachian trail. That's like really near and dear to my heart. And like, that's something that's, uh, gripping and that it's feels impossible. But like when I was running across the country and I ran past the distance, like, I don't know if the other people that you talked to, I don't remember if they had said this or not, but like when I had little checkpoints, like I went a thousand miles or I went a 2000 miles,

like, or crossed into a state, like you get a kind of a boost. A little rush, yeah. I got a huge rush when I was like, I just ran the entire Appalachian Trail distance, like not the vertical, right? Because the vertical was like way more than what I was doing.

But like, just to know that you can do that distance, that was impactful for me. And that was something where I always like said to my wife, like, hey, if I ever get fired from my job, I'm gonna do the Appalachian Trail. And now I'm like the owner of the company. So now- You keep doing these crazy things,

you're never there. But you're a partner, right? Can they even fire you? Yeah. Well, I'm actually one of the owners now. So like, I have to fire myself. Might go out of business before they can fire you, but like- Right. So like the Appalachian Trail, and then- You're the reason why we have all these issues with supply chain, right? It turns out it has nothing to do with the pandemic. It's all because you're just not at your desk. Yeah, right.

All these cargo ships are like, you know, trying to get into port. Where's Mike? We can't come into Long Beach because we can't get Mike on the phone. Yeah, no. No, that was actually great. Like that was actually one of my biggest fears

was telling our big client, like it's a company called Mersk Line Limited, who's like- They're like the biggest, right? Yeah, they are the biggest, yeah. And so like, I was like, oh man, I really wanna do this. And they're like, that's amazing. We wanna help you.

And I was just freaking out about that conversation. And so I was really happy that they came on board. But yeah, like as far as goals, like the Appalachian trail, and then I have this ridiculous interest in, and this is really far out there for me, but like doing like, you've done some of the big swims, but like a, like a swim around Manhattan, I think would be kind of cool. Like people do that one. I love that one. That's, that's definitely on my list. Yeah. Like I think I, and I'm not a kind of cool. Like people do that one. I love that one. That's definitely on my list. Yeah, like I think, and I'm not a good swimmer.

Like you're a good swimmer. Like for me, my longest swim- But that's the beginner's mind thing. Like you would wanna do a long swim and you're not a swimmer. Yeah, I'm very bad at swimming as far as like form. And like, I think the longest swim I've done is three miles and it took me longer than running like a marathon. Like it was like two hours and 25 minutes

to go three miles, like in the ocean, but like still. And I really wanted to do the nine mile swim, but I freaked out. Like I was like, oh, you have to get a crew and like, you know, you need like a boat next to you or whatever. And then I want to row across the Atlantic. Like that's something.

Oh, wow. Like, and so I've been talking to a friend in Arlington that I won't name because he like hasn't told his wife cause I like called him about it and I was like, dude, do you still wanna do that? And he's like, yeah, let me go outside though. I gotta walk the dog cause I don't wanna tell my wife yet.

Well, I got a few guys that you can talk to about that who have some experience with that kind of thing. Yeah. I don't know anything about that world. Yeah, but I think that would be really cool. Especially like, that's like for real adventure. And I feel like that's like what I'm looking for. Like those adventures, like,

and there's a lot of other things, like I wanna like climb Everest, but like my wife and I have a deal where I can't do that until the kids are 18, so. That's a good rule. Yeah. I think. I saw a quote where you said, you were asked this question and you said,

I have so many things I wanna tackle next. I wanna row across the Atlantic and I wanna run the Appalachian Trail. I wanna do the Pacific Crest Trail, run across all the continents and then also run on the moon. Yes. You actually said that. Yes, yes.

So you're dreaming big, my friend. Dude, well, I think if you just keep putting out, so I've been saying that for a long time about running on the moon or like I would take Mars, but Mars is a little bit further away. But yeah, I think that could be really cool. And I mean, it's not possible yet,

but I don't know if it's gonna be that far off. Time will tell. Yeah. Well, it's not possible yet, but I don't know if it's going to be that far off. Time will tell. Yeah. Well, that's Jeff Bezos. Yeah. Or Elon. Yeah. Where does becoming a professional pickleball player fit into all of this? Because that seems to be the thing you're most fired up about right now. Oh my God. I'm so lit up on that. Yeah, I just was able to partner with a company called Yola. So they're sponsoring the best players in the world. And so a guy named Ben Johns. You are a professional, then you're a professional.

Well, you're sponsored pickleball player. But it's very early stages for sure. And I'm definitely like, I don't know if you know like how the rankings go in pickleball. I don't know if you know like how the rankings go in pickleball I know nothing so it's like tennis it's like 2.5 3 3 5 4 4 5 5 is like you're really good almost pro and then kind of above 5 you're pro so I'm like 3 5 4 so like you know very early stages but yeah I'm I'm spending a lot of time playing pickleball and drilling and like working. I'm with a group called the Arlington Iron Paddles and there's

like 70 people in the group and everyone wants to be a pro. So like, we're working really hard. So like I'm learning shots and, you know, meeting people to drill at like seven o'clock in the morning, paying like $20 on the weekend to go get my butt kicked in these little tournaments that we're hosting. It's weird how that's become such a thing in such a short period of time. Like it went from nothing to, I have so many friends who are obsessed with playing it. Like how does that happen?

Like it's weird how culture happens that way. Like it's just this thing percolates up and then suddenly we all agree that like, this is a cool thing and we all should be doing it. Yes, it's just this thing percolates up and then suddenly we all agree that like, this is a cool thing and we all should be doing it. Yes. It's so weird. And especially when I first heard of it, I was like, oh, that's that sport the old people play, right? Right. Like paddleboard tennis or whatever. Yes, exactly. Or, or like ping pong or something or, or bocce. Like I play on a bocce league also. Of course you do. What? Yeah.

I don't understand the time schedule that you fit all these things in. It's, I don't know, somehow it works. But as far as like pickleball, like it's easy to learn, but hard to master. It's kind of like, I don't know if you saw, but I also like play chess and I'm like trying to get better in chess.

And so like, I, you know, find these little hobbies and kind of go deep as I can on them. And with pickleball, like, I feel like it's just, it's almost, I guess, Josh and I were talking about this too, is like somebody, it's like the first time you hear something, you're kind of like, it's in your consciousness, but you don't really notice it.

And it's like, take seven times until you kind of realize that you have seen it before. Or like, it's almost like you buy a car and then all of a sudden you see that car everywhere, you know? And I feel like that's with pickleball.

It's like, you know, somebody was playing it and then all of a sudden LeBron James buys a team or like Drew Brees has a team or Tom Brady's buying a team and you're like, oh, this is a thing, but it's been around for a while.

Right, but it's having its moment right now. Yeah, totally. It's so hilarious that you're pursuing this. Like most runners, especially elite runners, would not only like not be interested in that, would like avoid it like the plague because it just feels like a recipe for injury. Like, you know what I mean?

Like there's so many, all the lateral movements and the quick bursts and all of that. Like it would be so easy for you to, you know, pull a hamstring or calf muscle or something like that. But you're like, no, don't do this. Well, and I think that it's actually good because we do spend so much time going straight, like in an, unless you're trail running and then you're getting a little bit more of that. But like, I think it's great. Like I I've noticed that it's,

it's made me more limber and it's, um, good. I think a lot of people that are in endurance sports, maybe don't come from like a racket sport background or like a ball and sport background. And so like that for me is fun too, because like growing up playing lacrosse, like I do have those like kind of skills. What's annoying though is when you see someone come from tennis and they're like, oh, I've been playing for like two weeks and they can make all the shots. And like, they're making you look stupid because they like just know how to hit topspin. Like I am struggling. Like I really wanna like be able to hit topspin and like I see someone with tennis background

and they're like, oh, of course you can hit topspin. Yeah, I mean, you're very humble in saying like I didn't come from an endurance background and I don't have any great gifts, but usually people who are in endurance sports, part of the reason they're in it is because they have no eye hand coordination, which is I would count myself as one of those people.

Like, but you're a ball sports guy first, right? Developed this huge endurance engine, but also happens to be really fast and can like hit a ball and play chess. Like your neurochemistry, like your neural network is extremely diverse. And I'm interested in like how all those things feed each other.

Like, is that a conscious thing? Like, oh, I'm gonna do all these things because they make me better at the thing that I'm most passionate about? Or is this just like a reflection of your general curiosity to be kind of a Renaissance person? I mean, I think there is curiosity, but I think they all help each other. of your general curiosity to be kind of a Renaissance person. I mean, I think there is curiosity, but I think they all help each other.

Like if you wanna be a good chess player, like you have to be logical. Like there's no, like chess is a game, but it's really not. It's like, everything's known. Like there's no, like, I think, I don't know. You didn't have Annie Duke on, right? Like the professional. I know who she is though yeah yeah like she's amazing but like a game like Texas Hold'em or something like there's

chance involved like chess like all the moves are known like there's no surprises it's like if you make a bad move like the computer I'll tell you you made a bad you made a bad move um and so like but the same is like and know, this, like, if you push too hard in a race, you might know that's a bad move, but it might be the right move because there might only be 800 meters left. Right. Um, but if you push too hard at the beginning of the race, like there's going to be consequences. And I think like, and so many of the things that we do, like, and the things that I'm trying to do is like, hopefully they're impacting what else I'm doing in a positive way. Right. So like the chest is helping me with like decision-making and my endurance is helping me with my chest. And then

the pickleball is helping me with like lateral movement and also just having fun. Like, it's just really fun. And it's like, also like I get to learn like a whole new lexicon. Like I get to learn, like there's so much drama in it too. Like the pickleballers don't like the tennis people. Like I didn't know this was a thing. Like the tennis people don't like the pickleballers and like trying to find courts and like, yeah.

But it's like someone and I, we were talking, it's like when the skiers first had like snowboarders coming to the mountains and they're like, yeah, but it's like someone and I, we were talking, it's like when the skiers first had like snowboarders coming to the mountains and they're like, but this is where we play, you know? And it's like, why can't we all play? Like, it's not going to be worse for you. I don't think like, why can't we get along? And then it's like, you know, don't hit it hard at this person because if you do, they're going to be mad. And like, so it's been fun to kind of navigate that landscape also. So I think I like to keep things interesting and fresh. And I think, you know, pickleball is allowing me to do that. And I'm seeing just how much like interest there is in it, but also like,

there's so much skill involved. Like, it seems like it's, you just kind of knock the ball around, but then you watch the people at the top level. Like I was just at a pro tournament this past weekend with the YOLA team and like just watching them at that level. It's like, wow, those guys are incredible athletes. Well, the joy piece, like the fun piece seems to be really important, like a driving force. And also like the friendships in the community, right? Like the ultra runner landscape is littered with lone wolves. You know, people who, you know, like go, they're going into the pain cave

and having their own private, you know, kind of experience with what it means to push their own limits. And certainly that's part of it. Of course, when you're running across the country, you're alone a lot, but what animates you really seems to me to be like the people and the adventure that happens

when you're doing it in community. Oh, for sure. I think that like when I set out to do the run across the country, like I actually postponed it because of injury, but also because when I did start to feel better, like I didn't to do the run across the country, like I actually postponed it because of injury, but also because when I did start to feel better, like I didn't wanna do it if people couldn't join me like during COVID.

So like I waited until I thought it was appropriate for people to be able to come out and be a part of it. Cause I really did want that Forrest Gump experience where people are like, oh my God, he's coming through my town. Like I'm gonna call in sick to- And the beard was so out of control. Yeah. Oh my God. It was out of control last week. My wife's like, you got to cut it before you go see Rich. I love it. No, I, I, I really enjoy it too. And I was just, um, yeah, that's, that's exactly what I was hoping for.

Like it would move people to like, I had people like flying out from like Richmond to Indiana to run with me or somebody from Indiana ran with me and had so much fun. They came to finish the last day with me. And so like just to have people like have so much fun that they're like telling their friends to come the next day or they show up again. Like, I mean, that was just epically cool.

And like, and I had so many people, we had like special buffs made for it. And like, if someone did an ultra with us, we would give them a buff, like, but we wouldn't tell anyone. So like, you know, like I had so many first time ultra people, you know, that ran their first ultra

along the journey with me. And that was just like, man, I can't believe that you allowed me to share that experience with you and you were part of my experience. But like, was just like, man, I can't believe that you allowed me to share that experience with you and you were part of my experience. But like, I just, you know, just to see somebody do something that they didn't think that they could do. So cool. And then the kind of downstream effect of that on their life, because once they've done something like that, it totally expands your perspective on what you're capable of. And like, not just as an athlete in all areas of your life.

Well, yeah, and it's not just them, but then their family knows that it's possible too. Like my family, when I first started, they didn't know that people could run 50 miles and now like they know people run 50 miles. They know people run across continents. Like they know people run in all different places. Like that's what it was so cool.

Like I think one of my best experiences was like just two weeks ago, my son and I ran a half marathon and like- Was that his first half marathon? It was his first half marathon. He looks like he's like, I don't know, 15, something like that. 16. 16. Good call, yeah.

And so we were just, I was like, oh, I'm gonna be running the Baltimore marathon. He's like, oh, I'll run the half. And I was like, wait, what? And I just was like, wow, this is like, when he was just a little baby, I was like, someday maybe we'll run together, you know? And like, just to have that moment,

but then to get to share it with like his cross country friend, Lucas ran and my brother ran. And then we had all the people in Baltimore, cause I've run that race and I don't know, seven or eight times. And like, just to be out there cheering for us and like us getting to cheer for them and just to be part of the community again,

like I've missed that during COVID. And I missed that chance to reconnect with people. And that really feeds me too. Like I've said it before, like I'm an emotional vampire. Like I just suck that energy in and like use it. And it was great to be out there. How old is your, you have two boys, right? Yeah, two boys, Pierce is 16 and Grant's 13.

And so like three weeks ago, we all did a 5K together and Grant ran, Grant's like been playing on the freshman football team and he's eighth grader. So like he's getting, you know, knocked around by the freshmen. And so he started to go and do some CrossFit with me and he did his first 5K, like his first legit 5K. And in terms of kind of parenting active kids,

like you don't strike me as a Joe DeSena type who's like setting the alarm up and like dousing his kids with cold water at four in the morning to get them out of bed. Like you're more of a, you know, attraction type. Like I'm just gonna set the example and let them make their own choice.

Or how do you, you know, kind of get your kids excited about doing the things that you love? That's exactly it. Yeah, I mean, Joe is a good friend. And so like his style is different than mine for sure. But yeah, I want them to come to it through their own means. And like, I wanna be there.

Like if, and I think that was so awesome about like having that base of fitness. Like you could do the same thing. Like if your kids were like, hey, we wanna run an ultra with you. You'd be like, all right, let's go. Which one do you wanna do? Like the bulldog one right, hey, we wanna run an ultra with you, you'd be like, all right, let's go. Which one do you wanna do? Like the bulldog one right out back, you know?

They have not made that request yet though. But like it's there, right? So far disinterested. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, go ahead. But I thought it was actually funny when you were saying like you were doing a promotion for like just eggs and like I just started eating those

and you're like, but my kids actually like eat them. And like, I think that that's cool. Like that you expose them to these things and if they choose to be interested, that's great. But at least they know it's there, right? Yeah. And so like with our kids, like I want them to know that it's possible.

Like I want them to know it's out there. And if they expressed interest, then like I wanna try to make it happen for them. So like they're super into gaming. And so we got them like gaming computers and we've taken them to like professional gaming. Like they're really into this game. And we went to Montreal to watch

like the world championships so that they know what it's like at the highest level. Right. So like, man, if you want to do that, that would be amazing. Like it doesn't have to be, you know, what we're into, but we want to kind of facilitate whatever they're gravitating to. Yeah what we're into, but we wanna kind of facilitate whatever they're gravitating to.

Yeah, your job as the parent is to kind of fill, is to notice when a spark of inspiration hits and to kind of fill that gap and support that. That's sort of the way that I look at it. Yeah. And it generally doesn't come in the form that you would like it to come or expect, because it's rigged that way.

And there's something cool about that. Like you being a beginner's mind, like, oh, now here's your opportunity to become a gamer, Mike. This is your other professional career that awaits you. Well, and- You can do it with your kids. Well, and so I have done a lot of gaming. And so like, I was like the kid that like broke the Atari

when it first came out. Like I flipped like Pac-Man and like, I was like the kid that like broke the Atari when it first came out, like I flipped like Pac-Man and like I used to live in a group house and like after I'd finished my runs, I would get on like one of those little trampolines and like play Madden for like four or five hours, just jumping on the trampoline, you know, like playing my brother and our roommate.

So like, I'm a huge proponent of gaming. Like I think it's so many people are like, oh, screen time limited or whatever. And I think like most of us are on our screens all the time anyhow. And it's just getting them ready for what they're gonna face in the real world. And they have to make their own decisions. Yeah, I remember as a kid,

we would go to Rehoboth Beach in the summer. And I would go to the arcade on the boardwalk and just spend hours playing Space Invader. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm older than you, but the old school games. Yeah, totally.

Back in the day. And that's where my relationship with gaming begins and ends. Oh really? You're not gaming anymore? No, no. Not even on the Tesla? Like're not gaming anymore? No. No. Not even on the Tesla? Like when it's charging? I know that those games are on there.

I haven't done that yet. Oh my God, I've played on Josh's on there. Oh, you did? Yeah. That's funny. Yeah, cool. All right, the last thing I wanna talk to you about before I let you go is the kind of process

that you use to choose which goal to pursue and then the kind of step-by-step and how you kind of assemble the plan towards achieving that. Because I kind of wanna leave people who are watching or listening, who are thinking about a big goal or maybe have never set an audacious goal for themselves,

like how you kind of embark upon that process for yourself and maybe some tools or principles that could, you know, guide the listener. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I think, I think a lot of times, like my biggest thing is I always try to say yes to as many things as possible. So like, if I get an invite to a race in South Africa, I'll be like, yes. When I decided to do the run across the country, I- But you have to, sorry to interject, but like, as somebody who's probably getting invited to a lot of races, you have to learn how to say no, right? Like, how do you choose which things to say yes to and which things to say no to? Right, exactly. And so like, that's what, yeah, I was just about to say, it was like when I decided like, okay, this is my only focus, like

to do the run across the country. Cause usually I'm pretty open. Like there's some races that I want to do, or, you know, I have some, some goals. Um, like it might be to run faster or like to run further to like, you know, try to win my first hundred miler or whatever it is, or like, you know, hopefully get into hard rock or something. Right. Like, um, but when the run across the country, it was like, I want to do this. Then I had to pick like, okay, when do I want to do this? Then I have to get, how do I get everyone on board that I need to be a part of this? So it was almost like I drew up a business plan, right? Like, so I was like, okay, I'm basically gonna form this corporation.

I'm gonna be the CEO. It's a bad corporation because we're just gonna be losing money. Like this is not a, you know, making money thing. But hopefully losing somebody else's money. No, no, no, no. This was- You gotta hit the sponsors.

These are expensive endeavors. Yeah, no, this was a very expensive endeavor. This was a once in a lifetime type thing. And I knew it was gonna be expensive. And I was like, okay, but I wanna make sure our family's on board first, right? I think in all these things, if you don't have your team,

your partner or your family on board, it's just not gonna work. So that was the first thing was like, how do I or your family on board, like it's just not going to work. So like, that was the first thing was like, how do I get my family to be a part of this and want to allow this to happen? So once I was sure that that was okay, then I decided like, okay, now how do I get work? And that was what I was really worried about this. Like, how do I get work to allow me to do this? So then once I was 100% sure, then I brought it to my partner and I was like, I really wanna do this.

And then I had an idea of like, okay, how, instead of like, oh, I just wanna do this, I had a, you have to go through what are the pain points, right? What are the things that are gonna stop me from being able to achieve this? And for running across the country is like, how am I gonna finance it?

Like, when am I gonna do it? Who's gonna be on my team? How am I gonna get work to agree to it? So you just bank a checklist of like everything that needs to get done. And then you just start going down that checklist and you have to order it in a way that like, if one thing doesn't work,

then you have to figure out how to make it work before you can go to the next step. And so that's what I did basically. I was like, okay, I got the family on board, figured out how we're going to make it work financially. And like with the time off, then talked to my partner about it, talked to my clients about it, hired my friend, Mark Cody, who came in to help me during that time. And I'd wanted the opportunity to work with him again anyhow, so it worked out perfect. Trained him for a year and a half so that he was ready for the challenge.

Year and a half, wow. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, I didn't want him to come in and be like, oh, I don't know what to do. And then I was still there if he needed me and I was still working along the trip. So like, if there was something he wasn't sure about, he'd just call me or he's like, I need help. You're pretty available. Well, yeah. He's running. Yeah. Well, and, and like, I, that's why I didn't want to set, like, I'm not going to go for a world record or anything like that. Like, cause

if we have a deadline and there's something that needs to be done, like I would just schedule a day in a hotel the night before and just work with the clients to be like, Hey, I really need this stuff now so that we can get this done so that I can, you know, go, go for a run. Right. And everyone was super cool about it. And, you know, there were some days where it didn't work out the way we wanted and some stuff had to change. And, you know, I had to stop in the middle of the day and, and figure it out. But like, that's, that's why I didn't put a deadline on it. And so I just set myself up for success and like, things are going to happen and, you know, it's not going to go like the way you want. Like, I thought I had a, an RV company that was going to

support the run. And then of course, like the week before they were a, an RV company that was going to support the run. And then of course, like the week before they were like, yeah, it's not going to be ready. And I was like, oh, okay, well, cruise America, what's up? Um, and so you just, you know, put yourself in the best possible position and then just keep knocking those things off. And, and then for the run, it was the same thing. It's like every day, wake up, try to be super consistent. Like the first day, like I wanted to set the tone. Like we were at city hall and like, you know, people are like taking pictures and everything. And I was like, we have two minutes, like we're leaving at seven o'clock, like the first day. And like, you just have to set the tone and, and then each and every day, just keep doing those little things.

And I think we mentioned this earlier in the podcast, but if you keep doing the little things, the big things happen. But if you start thinking about the big thing and all the things that can go wrong, like you just get stuck. Or you get paralyzed. Yeah. Right?

Yeah. Or you're thinking about the flower when you should be focusing on the root. Yeah. Focus on the roots. Flower takes care of itself. Focusing on the roots are the little things that you be focusing on the root. Focus on the roots, flower takes care of itself. Focusing on the roots are the little things that you're doing every single day. The watering and the tilling, the tilling of the soil.

Well, and you just keep stacking the little things and that like big things happen when you do that. Yeah, how do you convey that to your kids? Just by your actions or do you actually like sit them down and say, here's how you accomplish goals? No. And how does that go over? No.

Later dad. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. Wait, can you take your AirPods out? Right. No, I think, and you probably see this too, is like your kids, like no matter what you say, your kids are going to do what they see. Right. And so if you're modeling things that you want them to do or achieve, like they, they pick up on that much faster than if you say like, Hey,

we're going to sit here for 20 minutes and talk about what it means to accomplish big things. And then I try to just engage with them as much as possible. And I think that that's one of the biggest things, like I really miss them when I was gone. And I don't want to miss all these opportunities. Like I had a chance to do a race in Bhutan in October called the Snowman Race. It's one of the places in the world that I haven't been that I really want to go. And they wanted us to be there for 25 days or something. I was like, I'm going to miss like four cross country meets

and five football games and like all the time in between. And I've already missed too much time this year. And I think you know this, and I don't know if this is true. So like if you do a fact check, like some, I know your podcast doesn't do that, but like, you can, I don't know, I should probably fact check this, but like 90% of the time you're going to spend with your kids is before they're 18. So like, if you don't spend that time now, it's not coming back. And so I want to be as present as I can be. And so I've just been around

and, and we'll just, our son will be like, hey, you wanna go play murder ball on the trampoline? And I'm like, yeah, let's go do that. And then while we're out there, we're just talking about like, hey, have you done your project in chemistry or history or whatever?

And oh, you need to, our son's doing, they go to this kind of cool school called HB Woodlawn where they have a lot of independent study and direction. Oh, that's pretty cool. It's really cool. And it's like a public school and it's just lottery. It's super lucky that our kids got into it. And he's doing a project on tourism.

And so like we went to the library just the other day, like I got them library cards and like, they had library cards, but of course they expired during COVID. So like, but I was just there to be able to go with them. And that's when I saw all these cool books about travel, like these routes that I haven't seen before. Like now, like I wanna run like the Silk Road and stuff

because I saw it in this like book, but like just being around to help them, with photography or something, like they're doing these cool projects and I just wanna be there and help as much as I can. And I don't think like sitting down and being like, hey, you should make a checklist, like is gonna help them.

That's just, you get the eye roll. Yeah. But at some point the Bhutan trip or the similar type of adventures, perhaps you bring them with you, right? Oh, and that's what we've done their whole life. So like they've been, like one of our big goals is to get them to all seven continents

and they've already been to six continents as 16 and 13 year olds. So I didn't realize that you had traveled with them. Oh yeah, so they've got friends in New Zealand. They've got friends in France and like they're actually doing a solo trip this spring together to France as a field trip. And my wife's like, oh, we should go.

And I'm like, no, no, they should go by themselves. That's for them. Yeah, so like, yeah, next year we're gonna try to hit Antarctica and that'll be their seventh continent. Nice. Yeah. Wow, that's exciting. Yeah, so they're world travelers.

Cool. And I think that they've learned so much. I think, I mean, I don't know if you've had the chance to take your kids around the world with you, but like there's much more that can be learned from a trip to Japan where you just get to see so much unique stuff or a trip to France or an opportunity to be in. Oh, 100%.

Like, yeah. I mean, my brother and I talking about this, like he's taking his kids to Portugal and like they're gonna miss a couple of days of school. And I was like, anytime that, yeah. Anytime that we've like gotten one of those, like, hey, you know, your kids need to be in school. We're like, okay.

Like they're learning a lot in the real world too. Yeah. I just think, yeah, there's so much to be gained from the worldliness of traveling to foreign locations for kids at that impressionable of an age and like missing school because of like that kind of a broadening experience. Like it doesn't even, you know, equate. Well, and what I think is awesome is like,

they know that there's different ways to do things. Like they know like that you don't always have to, you know, have the easy, easy meal, or they know like sometimes the train doesn't come and we have to figure out another way out to get there. Or sometimes your bags don't show up or that's why you only carry carry-on. Creative problem solving on the fly. Exactly. Or like, yes, your mom and dad are gonna give you a caffeinated beverage at two o'clock in the morning

so that you can get off the plane. So they've, or yeah, you probably shouldn't put your iPad in the back of the airplane so that we have to go back to the airport the next day because you lost it. Yeah, those things all happen. All that kind of stuff, man. Yeah.

Cool. Well, let's just end this with a little sort of inspirational words of wisdom for somebody who's inspired by what you just shared and is ready to go and is thinking about, it doesn't have to be their first running race, but trying to do something hard. Yeah, I mean, I think the biggest thing for me

and I think for a lot of people is just finding something that lights you up. I think you mentioned this earlier, but like if you don't have something that you're a little bit scared of, or you're a little bit intimidated about, like, it's going to be hard to like wake up at 4.45 in the morning when the covers are warm. And, um, but if, if there is something that you can find that you're interested in, don't be afraid to go for it. Like, I think signing up is like the first step and like,

it doesn't even have to be a race. It could just be like, Hey, I want to, you know, try to go to my local trail and, and run it. And, and I thought you actually had somebody on like not that long ago that was said like the 12 hour walk from your front door. Oh yeah, Colin O'Brady. Yeah. And it was awesome. Like, I was like, that's exactly what would be a great first step for a lot of people is just go like somewhere close and just do something unusual

or take the train to the other side of town and like figure your way back to your house. Like it could be, like I have a friend that started a race called Eco Trail in Paris. And he basically like, was like, I'm going all over the world to run. Like, why don't I just have a race? Like I go train, I take the Metro out of Paris

and then run back to the Eiffel Tower. You know, like when I first started running, like one of my big runs is I'd run down to the Washington Monument and just be like, wow, I can't believe I get to run like to the Washington Monument or like the Lincoln Memorial. Like, and that's like maybe seven or eight miles from my house, but like, you know,

seven miles there, seven miles back, all of a sudden it's 14 miles. That's a pretty big thing, you know? And it could be that, or it could just be like, hey, I wanna, you know, go to Starbucks and, you know, run home from there or walk home from there. And, you know, it starts small and then, but if it is small and then,

but if it is something like big, like I think do it, man. Like there's so many people that I see like wait to do something big and then something gets in the way or they don't have the health to do it anymore. And like, it's cliche and dumb, but like seize the opportunity, seize the moment because you never know what's gonna happen. Like I have so many friends that retire

and then they're like, oh, I have dreams to go to Greece or like, I'm gonna spend all this time with my family and like something happens and it doesn't work out that way. It never happens, yeah. I mean, you have to begin, you have to develop an inclination for action, even if those are small steps. I think a lot of people get paralyzed

because they're waiting for their life to, you know, come into some sort of alignment where it all feels perfect and makes sense. And it generally doesn't, you know, life doesn't work that way. Typically, if it does, good for you. But the other thing I really love about your example and your story is, is you're somebody who

has a passion, who pursues that passion very vigorously, but that passion doesn't come at the expense or the cost of like family, community, career. Like you didn't quit your job. You know, like you have a, you have like a, you know, like in some respect, like a traditional kind of job career. Yeah. And that's very important and creates the stability for you to be able to do these other things. And there's something really kind of like grounded about that, that I like, because it's not this irresponsible, like, oh, just, you know, let go of everything and like go into the, you know, go like, you know, be like Kung Fu and like, you know, walk, walk into the wilderness because like, I have a passion.

It's like, you live in the world, you have kids and responsibilities and bills and all of that. And yet you still figured out a way to pursue all of these interests that like light you up and you've been successful at them. But most importantly, they've given your life like joy and meaning. And I think that's really kind of, you know, it's powerful to be somebody who is as elite as you, but also like so relatable in most of how you spend your time. Yeah, I hope that that is what people take away. Like it's, I think it's, you know, it's hard. Like it's not easy.

I mean, I think like, you know, I was jealous at times when I was, you know, you probably know a guy named Anton Kapitschka and like he and I would like battle back and forth and I'd be like, dude, he's just living in a- But he lives a totally different, like that guy. Well, yeah, exactly. I mean, he might as well be living in a cave

compared to like the way that you live your life. Right, but like, it doesn't matter when you show up to the start line, it doesn't matter. Like you just do the best with what you have, right? And so like, if you're worried about what someone else is doing, like that doesn't work. Like, but like, there are so many people that go and they do like, I'm going to do two marathons a year and I'm going to, you know, build up and like, that's, that's what my life's going to be. And like, that's great. I'm glad that, you know, there's people that can do that and they have really great performances, but that's just not, not what lights me up and gets me excited. And that's not my life. Yeah. I got you. But I did have that. I mean, I did have that debate with myself. Like, do I want that life? You know, at various points, like, do I want to walk away walk away from this and be a full-time athlete?

And like, what does that look like? And I'm happy that I didn't do that. I'm happy that I tried to see if I could make it all work because you probably had this too, is like so many people say like, it's not gonna work. And it's not like people trying to be negative. It's just like, for a lot of people, it doesn't work. And I'm glad that it has for me.

Yeah, well, you seem happy, seem fulfilled in the choices that you've made. And it's good talking to you, man. I appreciate it. And I wish you well, I'm at your service. Oh man, thanks. When it comes to running on the moon, let me know. Oh dude, yeah, I need a partner, man.

Maybe that might be worth having you back to talk about. Dude, I would love that. Yeah. Anytime, man. Cool. I'd love to hang out and do this again at some point. Yeah, awesome. Well, it's really fun to kind of watch your journey from afar

and it's been an honor and a pleasure to meet you and talk to you. So thanks. Thanks a lot. Cheers. Peace. Plants. meet you and talk to you. So thanks. Thanks a lot. Cheers. Peace. That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources

related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com, where you can find the entire podcast archive, as well as podcast merch, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change in the Plant Power Way, as well as the Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and leave a review and or comment.

Supporting the sponsors who support the show is also important and appreciated. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is of course awesome and very helpful and finally for podcast updates special offers on books the meal planner and other subjects please subscribe to our newsletter which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo with additional audio engineering by Cale Curtis. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis with assistance by our creative director, Dan Drake.

Portraits by Davey Greenberg, graphic and social media assets, courtesy of Daniel Solis, Dan Drake, and AJ Akpodiete. Thank you, Georgia Whaley, for copywriting and website management. And of course, our theme music was created by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support.

See you back here soon. Peace. Plants. Namaste. Bye.