The Rich Roll Podcast - Grappling With GMOs: Daryl Wein & Zoe Lister-Jones On ‘Consumed’ — Making A Thriller Out of The Politics of Food

Episode Date: November 5, 2015

Most people don’t know that 80% of all processed foods currently contain genetically modified organisms. In fact, 54% Americans know virtually nothing whatsoever about the subject of GMOs. Filmmakers Daryl Wein and Zoe Lister Jones hope to change all that. Enter Consumed– the very first narrative feature film to tackle the quite controversial and incendiary subject of genetically engineered food. In the vein of Silkwood, Erin Brockovich and Traffic, Consumed is a taught political thriller of intersecting storylines that pivot around a mother’s investigation into her son’s illness and a series of archetypal characters that ultimately collide in the tangled world of genetically modified foods. Based on a co-written script directed by Daryl that stars Zoe as the mother, I first met the hyper-kinetic Daryl and his glowing and dynamic wife Zoe at a dinner party just before they commenced production on the film. I was impressed by how informed and passionate they were about the subject of GMO. Even more impressive was their ambition and courage to tackle such a hot button issue on film. That night I made them promise to come on the podcast when the film was complete to tell us all about it. That day is today. Zoe and Daryl launched their relationship at NYU in 2002. Then they launched their careers, combining talents on two low budget relationship comedies, Breaking Upwards (SXSW, 2009) and Lola Versus (Fox Searchlight, 2012). The films were so well received, the New York Times dubbed them, “Brooklyn’s answer to the Hollywood power couple,” establishing the pair as fresh new talents on New York’s independent film landscape alongside generational peers like Girls’ Lena Dunham. The prudent career move for Daryl and Zoe would have been to stay in Brooklyn. Further cultivate their very New York sensibility. Continue making relationship comedies. And carve out fine careers in the vein of Woody Allen or Noah Baumbach. Instead, they moved to Los Angeles and quickly set up a variety of film projects currently in development. Zoe started consistently showing up in movies and on television (she currently stars in Life In Pieces on CBS with Colin Hanks and Diane Weist). But most of all, they rolled up their sleeves and got to work crafting a complex, intricate independently financed drama about the world of GMOs. Ballsy! Last Spring, Consumed premiered to positive acclaim at the Los Angeles Film Festival. Starring Zoe alongside a stellar cast that includes Danny Glover, Victor Garber, Griffin Dunne, Anthony Edwards and Taylor Kinney, it's just a really well done movie — I've watched it twice – topical, socially impactful and entertaining. But let's be clear — it’s not a documentary. It doesn’t presuppose to answer questions, only ask them. Today I sit down with today’s guests to ask a few questions of my own. This is a very fun but at times heavy conversation that confronts the complex issues raised by GMOs and addresses the multi-faceted debate that swirls around it. Topics include: * what interested Daryl and Zoe in the subject matter * what they learned about GMO researching and making the movie * the health & the environmental implications of GMO * issue obfuscation in the GMO debate * the socio-economic impact of GMO on farmers and consumers * legislative & regulatory landscape & oversight of GMO Enjoy! Rich

You know, a big part of this movie not being a documentary is to reach that broader audience so that in the public discourse this can be something that is at the front of people's minds when we're talking about, you know, health and wellness. That's Zoe Lister-Jones along with Daryl Ween and this is the Rich Roll Podcast. What's up, Podcastlandia? What is the news, people? Welcome to the show. I'm your host on today's fantastic voyage. My name is Rich Roll. I am an ultra endurance athlete. I write books. I husband my wife. I raise kids,

four of them in fact, plus two dogs, but mostly, at least these days it seems, I podcast. That's right. Thanks for stopping by. I mean that. I really, really do. This is the show where I deep dive with the paradigm shifting outliers, the big forward thinkers across all categories of positive seismic culture change, fitness, nutrition, academia, tech, consciousness, and spirituality. Don't be afraid, people. And in the case of today's episode, filmmaking. The goal is simple. To help all of us unlock and unleash our best, most authentic selves. Good for you. Good for me.

Good for humanity, right? Today on the show, I am thrilled to have the divine Zoe Lister-Jones and her quite charismatic husband, Daryl Wein. They are the married filmmaking dynamic duo behind a new narrative feature film coming soon to a theater near you called Consumed, which is a really interesting drama that boldly tackles the quite controversial and quite incendiary subject of genetically modified foods, GMOs. I got a whole bunch more I want to say on all this before we get into the interview itself, but first. All right, today's show. So I met Zoe and Daryl, must have been about two years ago, a year and a half ago, perhaps. It was at a dinner party, and it was just before they began shooting the film Consumed, that is the subject of today's show. And I vividly recall

that night making them promise to come on the podcast when the film was complete to tell us all about it. And well, today is that day. They're a lovely and quite dynamic and hyper-creative married filmmaking couple who are definitely on the rise. They've got a variety of very cool projects in development all over town. It's worth mentioning that you very well may know Zoe from numerous roles in movies like Salt and State of Play and TV shows like New Girl, Whitney, and The Good Wife. She currently has a starring role in Life in Pieces. It's the new CBS sitcom where she plays Colin Hank's wife alongside Diane Wiest. But taking it back, Daryl and Zoe met in 2002 when they were both students at NYU's Tisch School of the Arts.

That's NYU's film, theater, and acting department. And at South by Southwest in 2009, they launched their careers with their award-winning low-budget debut feature, which was called Breaking Upwards. It was this comedic look at their own personal experiment with an open relationship. It's a film that they wrote, produced, and starred in together that Daryl directed. And then in 2012, they followed that up with their second feature, Lola Versus. It was a film they did for Fox Searchlight, which was also a relationship comedy, also directed by Daryl. And that film starred Greta Gerwig, who's kind of, if you're

not familiar with her, she's sort of a New York indie film darling. You might have seen her in movies like Francis Ha, Greenberg. She was also in Joe Swanberg's LOL. That film, Lola Versus, also starred Joel Kinnaman. You know him from Robocop and The Killing, and of course, Zoe. And that film premiered at the Tribeca Film Festival. And these two projects together made a bit of a splash and kind of established Daryl and Zoe with quite a bit of New York indie film cred. The New York Times actually dubbed them Brooklyn's answer to the classic Hollywood power couple. Essentially, they became this fresh new voice on the New York filmmaking landscape alongside generational peers, people like Lena Dunham. And the logical career

move for them would have been to stay in New York City, further cultivate their very New York sensibility, and continue to make relationship comedies, carving out careers in the vein of Woody Allen and Noah Baumbach. But that's not what they did. Instead, they up and moved to LA and decided to make this complex, intricate, independently financed drama about the world of GMOs. Bam. How about that, right? That's pretty ballsy. So there are plenty of documentaries on the subject of GMOs. Genetic Roulette, GMO-OMG, and The World of Monsanto are just a few that spring to mind, and they're all worth checking out. But Consumed is the first treatment of this subject matter in dramatic narrative form, which is a very cool thing.

The film is in the vein of films like Silkwood and Erin Brockovich and the political thrillers of the 70s, movies like Three Days at the Condor and All the President's Men. It's a very taut drama that involves a series of intermingled storylines, kind of like if you've seen Traffic or Siriana, the movies that Stephen Gagin has written, movies in which archetypal characters are ultimately on a crash course with each other. And in the case of Consumed,

it all pivots around this one mother's investigation into her son's illness, and that's a journey that ultimately leads her into this tangled world of genetically modified foods. Zoe and Daryl wrote the script together. Daryl directs it. And Zoe stars as the mom alongside this great cast that includes Danny Glover, who plays this beleaguered organic farmer. Griffin Dunn, who plays a discredited research scientist. Victor Garber, he plays the CEO of this big ag company. Anthony Edwards, Taylor Kinney, just a really

great cast. And the film's really well done. It's, what can I say? It's socially conscious. It's impactful. It's earnest. It's thoughtful. It's entertaining. And it's certainly topical. But it's not a documentary. It doesn't presuppose to answer questions. It really just asks them. And that's because Daryl and Zoe are not scientists, nor do they play ones on film or on the Internet. Neither do I. But they are very passionate and incredibly informed on the subject of GMO. I appreciate their perspective. And I applaud their mission to introduce this subject matter to mainstream audiences.

Why is this important? Well, let's look at the statistics. Right now, 54% of all Americans polled know little to nothing about GMOs, despite the fact that 80% of all processed foods currently contain GMOs. 64 countries across the globe mandate labeling, yet the USA still does not. And to date, there exist no long-term studies on the impact of GMO on human health. So this is an intriguing and, I believe,

important conversation that canvases pretty much every facet of the controversial GMO debate. What prompted Daryl and Zoe to make the movie, what they learned researching it and making it, the potential implications for human health and the environment, the socioeconomic impact on farmers and consumers, regulatory oversight or lack thereof, the legislative considerations around labeling initiatives,

state and consumer rights to know. And we talk a lot about the DARK Act, which is a bill that recently passed Congress and is currently pending before the Senate. It's this federal bill that would essentially make it illegal for states to pass mandatory labeling regulations and would actually prohibit states from banning or even regulating GMOs in any way whatsoever. So I'm a staunch supporter of mandatory labeling laws, but much like the movie, I don't support to have all that many answers when it comes to GMOs. But I do have questions. I've got a lot of them. So let's just get to the asking. Without further ado, it's my privilege, it's my honor to bring you Daryl Ween and Zoe Lister-Jones. Enjoy.

All right, we're done taking selfies. Are you ready to actually do the podcast? Yeah, let's go ahead and start. Hey, you guys. Hi. Thanks for making the trip up to the house. It's always a pleasure to come to this beautiful house. Yeah, it's so. Hey, you guys. Hi. Hey. Thanks for making the trip up to the house. It's always a pleasure to come to this beautiful house. Yeah, it's so good to see you guys.

It's the day after Halloween, and I'm very anxious to hear about your Halloween, because I have a feeling you guys do it like you do it right, right? Yeah, they do. Classic actors. We went to a few good costume parties. Yeah, we went to a few good costume parties. Tell me about it. Yeah, we went to a few good costume parties.

Tell me about it. Well, this one was kind of like a Mad Max, kind of futuristic sci-fi type of themed party at the Sportsman's Lodge in Studio City. There were lots of great costumes there. I saw someone dressed as a shower. Oh, the shower was good, but it was very lonely, because he was inside the shower curtain. Right.

There were a few moments where I just speak to anybody. He had the shower curtain closed in the middle of the party. That's actually a great way to go to a party. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The antisocial party goer. Yeah, the party we went to had amazing costumes. There was a couple who was yin and yang, which was pretty great. There was a twister board. There's a twister. That's pretty cool which was pretty great. Um, there was a, a twister board,

a twister, which was great. There's always a few fifth elements in the mix. There was a blade runner. Cause why not? Yeah. I mean, it's like for women,

it's like, how, how can I look hot? Right. And also French maids. Yeah. Boy bunnies. Yeah.

There were some playboy bunnies. Why is it like that don't know like girls that are with guys that have boyfriends or i'm gonna just for halloween and be an aerobics instructor it's an excuse a lot of aerobics to like channel your inner you know what i don't want to use the s word no i wanted to wear my phone yeah no i think that more like we should get like more like scandalous male Halloween attire and like women should be going the other direction. Magic ween. There was no magic Mike reference anywhere to be found. Um, yeah,

it was, it was pretty wild. There was a lot of like underwear, but you know, most guys can't live up to that. I know. You know what I mean? So I know not everybody's but you guys could rich could cool. You guys could. Yeah. We went to this, uh, we went trick or treating in the Malibu colony, which is this sort of gated exclusive beach community. Oh yeah. My friend went there. It's pretty crazy. Like you have to be like on a list and there's like gar, it's like only in another, like only in Los Angeles thing,

they have like valet parking to go trick or treating, which is insane. But we have a friend who has a friend. So we could, we got in there, but the coolest part, it is actually really cool. Once you get in there, everybody opens up their house and they outdo each other by making these haunted houses. And it's all about the kids. And it actually was really fun and really cool. But the highlight was at one house at the very end of the beach, they set up an outdoor theater with movie theater seats. And they were screening The Shining. So you could sit there and watch the movie.

And then you could walk this red carpet up into like a little outdoor um art studio and there was a uh this guy who was carving pumpkins who i have to believe is the world's greatest pumpkin car i saw that on your instagram yeah that was amazing that it looked like it was light projecting onto the pumpkin of of yoda but he actually carved that he had like a darth vader one and he had a Chucky one and he was working there doing another one and you could watch him carve like this amazing artist. Like I've never seen anything like that. It was pretty incredible.

The kids asked him what he did and he said that he's an embalmer. So he actually does a lot. He does a lot of reconstructive processes on faces. But then he goes, but that's only my part-time job because what I really do is I'm a paleontologist. And my kids were freaking out. They were like, what? That's the coolest thing in the whole world. And he was quite extraordinary.

I mean, it was really something to see. I wish I knew his name. It's sort of tragic that I don't know his name. We didn't get a pumpkin this year, but I think it was two years ago, right when we moved to L.A., I really wanted to have a pumpkin. And I found this perfect round pumpkin. And we put it out, and then I didn't want to throw it out because it looked so perfect. And so it just sat in the sun for the next six months

and just rotted away. It started to sag. I just refused to throw it away. Well, because in New York, you know, like apartment living, like you don't put a pumpkin out. Like there's not, that's just not part of, so once we had like a house here, we were like, oh my God, we can put like a pumpkin out.

And then we just refused to let the pumpkin go. It's like sunny and beautiful and like 75 degrees every day. Yeah, the pumpkin rotted. It was sad. You know, I have to just say on the topic of Halloween, I feel like, what do you guys do being health conscious parents with the candy element? We don't have children, but like, I kind of feel like this is like a really intense holiday for people who are concerned with. Well, I, uh, in the past, the past two years, not this year, I had the, um, I had a lot of inspiration. I had an overwhelming amount of inspiration to, um, create a plant-based Halloween. Yeah. And so

I hosted two events here, two, two years in a row, and I had so much resistance and so much, so even anger projected at me for trying to create this. And so it wasn't a big hit. I mean, we did one time we had like 70 people come, which was pretty cool. But it took so much effort and I couldn't get anybody to join me. I tried to get other mothers to join me or a dietician to join me and no one would do it. And I think it's because the tradition of going out in the night in the neighborhood is so strong and it, and it is really fun. And because we've been traveling with our book and I'm, I just don't have the bandwidth to like, you know, shepherd that whole thing.

But I was kind of laughing at myself yesterday because being out in the neighborhoods, you know, with all the kids, I realized that I was, I was really sort of out of the box. I was quite out of the box trying to do that. So what we do is we let the kids go. Obviously, they have a big bag of candy, but there is an exchange. So we've turned it into commerce. We're sort of bribing them, actually. So they get like 25 cents for each piece of candy,

and then we buy it back from them. But then what I'm doing, what I am doing though, this, this year is we are going to go online this week and we're researching all of the big companies that make this candy and we're seeing the environmental impact of what the companies are doing. So that is another step that I'm taking with the, with the younger ones. Um, and you know, last night they, they had a blast. It was beautiful and you know, I'm glad we went, but it is an issue. I mean, it'd be great if we, if we had organic candy or healthy things. I mean, there is organic candy. It's just, it's, it's so rare. Not a lot of people are handing it out. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, it's having, we'll just bridge seamlessly into the topic of GMOs. But, you know, I mean, all of that candy is chock full of GMOs because it's all corn syrup.

Everything that has high fructose corn syrup in it is basically GMO created. Yeah. Which is a great bridge. It is. Isn't that great? You guys are here. It's perfect. Which is your new movie, Consumed, which I enjoyed tremendously. Congratulations.

Congratulations on making this movie. I watched it for a second time today again, and I just, I really like it. I mean, for people that are listening, I don't want to give away too much of it, but it's, it's this beautiful kind of, um, it's, it's sort of in the, in the, in the vein of traffic where you have these intersecting stories where these archetype characters you know are kind of headed on a crash course with each other so you want to just sort of how do you describe the movie? It's a dramatic thriller

set in the complex world of GMOs it's anchored by a mother played by Zoe whose son gets a mysterious allergic reaction and so she kind of is propelled on this journey to figure out what may be causing it at the same time we're following the ceo of a fictional biotech company who is making food that ostensibly is saving the world and two scientists who are on the verge of

a major discovery and an organic farmer played by the one and only Danny Glover. He was amazing. Great cast. Who was being bullied by the biotech corporation over patent infringement, over genetically modified seeds. Right, so his character is really, he walks a mile in the shoes of the farmer

who's trying to be organic, but seeds from the genetically modified, you know, sort of not in your movie, but in real life, Monsanto seeds are blowing over into his field. So his fields are contaminated and then he gets embroiled in this controversy that ultimately destroys his ability to make a living. Right. Yeah. Which is a very real issue with farmers in this country that they are, um, constantly being faced with these patent infringement lawsuits, which is something that, uh, was unheard of up until, uh, you know, quite recently that, that life could be patented and

that these seeds could be patented. And, and the, the tradition of farmers for centuries has been to replant seeds. And the thing about GMO seeds is that you can't replant them, that you have to rebuy them every year from the corporations. Yeah, you become kind of an indentured servant to the corporation. So you have to rebuy and rebuy and rebuy. You can't really ever break out of that. Well, before we completely unpack the movie and GMOs, I mean, let's take a step back. You know, I'm interested in what inspired and motivated you guys to make this film, because at least on a surface level,

it seems like an unlikely kind of career maneuver for you guys, because you kind of came up as the sort of New York, Brooklyn indie darling, you know, young, enterprising filmmaking couple who young, enterprising, filmmaking couple who were making kind of relationship-oriented comedies in the sort of vein of Lena Dunham and people like that. You don't think GMOs are comedies? I mean, it's just like, oh, there's a lot of comedy. A lot of comedy. So it does seem interesting,

because I see you guys as very, even though you live here now, and I know you embrace the L.A. lifestyle. We were talking about that a little bit before the podcast. You have a very New York sensibility to your work and your kind of aesthetic. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I was raised in Brooklyn and Daryl was raised in Connecticut. So we're East Coasters through and through.

You met at NYU. We met at NYU, yeah, in acting school. and through. You met at NYU. We met at NYU, yeah, in acting school. And yeah, our like foray into the filmmaking world, our first two narrative features were that sort of 20-something relationship comedy in the vein of Woody Allen. And we did come up with with people like lena and and um uh in that that sort of crew so it definitely is a departure for us i think we both felt um i think well actually we wrote the a version of this script after our first film breaking upwards um and so we then gave it to our agent and she was like what are you doing she was like put this on you doing? She was like, don't do this. Put this on the shelf and never look back.

You're the next Noah Bomba. Yeah, I think like, you know, just being like we were so excited about the possibility of being able to make any genre that we wanted. capable of exploring so many different genres that we didn't really realize that the way you're supposed to brand yourself when you've made any sort of splash in the industry is to take advantage of that brand. So we then made another relationship comedy. And once we did that, we then took a step back and thought, what's the story that we're dying to tell right now? And we felt that we had lived in that space sufficiently and that we didn't want to tell that story anymore. And that this was a really important story to us that just kept gaining relevance and that we just felt like couldn't not be told at this moment. And I think that food has always been something that's

been a big part of our lives as part of everybody's life. You have to eat food in order to survive. We have been eating food our whole life. But Zoe and I, we were raised completely differently when it comes to what we were fed. And I had a lot of junk food around me growing up, a lot of sugar and snack food. And Zoe, I think, cut out sugar when she was like seven. I wasn't allowed sugar. I wasn't allowed sugar.

She wasn't allowed sugar. And she was, she was a much more, uh, natural, you know, foods that were much more organic at that time. And, uh, and so when I met Zoe, it was like a collision of different ideologies and, uh, she quickly rerouted my ideology one. She quickly subverted the track that I was on. It's mostly fear based.

Yeah. Shaming. Yeah. Emotional shame. Yeah. But so, uh, you know, I i we went to a lot of restaurants in the beginning of our relationship that i did not want to eat at why are we here

we have to explore other restaurants angelica's kitchen yeah if i eat another macrobiotic meal to win i'm going to kill myself but the more and more i was eating that, the more I ate that food, I felt good about myself and I felt more healthy. I just did. And anyway, so that that was a journey that we have been going on now for almost 12 years together. And we you know, we around the time that we were began writing the first draft of this movie over seven years ago. God, it's been so long now. We were talking about why this was so important to us because we all are eating this food and people don't even realize they're eating genetically modified food because in this country it's not labeled as it is in 64 countries around the world.

So that prompted us to start asking questions. Why is it not labeled in America? And why are all these other countries labeling it? Why haven't there been long-term studies done on it? And so we started reading articles and books about it, and that kind of is what ignited the passion for this subject. Was there any particular article or book that stood out as being kind of inciting to lighten the spark?

Yeah, there was an article in Vanity Fair called Harvest of Fear, I think. That really got into the bullying of farmers, which I think was really, that was a big inciting article for us in terms of the cinematic approach to the telling of the story. Because there were so many noir elements, and it seemed like you couldn't even write something that was that dramatic and kind of had that thriller vibe. So I think that we were like, well, this might be a movie. And there hadn't yet been a documentary on it.

Now there have been a couple, but I think for us, the idea of making this into a narrative feature was really exciting because it has such a broader reach that we could entertain audiences and then also kind of spark this conversation. Right. I mean, that must have been a conversation though, because you've, Daryl, you've made a documentary before. Yeah. I made a documentary before so yeah i made this documentary called sex positive which explored the life of an snm hustler a gay snm hustler named richard berkowitz in the early 1980s who was fighting for gay rights and for and really promoting safe sex for the first time in this country's history at a time that was extremely divisive and divided and controversial

and nobody knew what was going on. And the government had kind of, there's this profound silence from the government about how to protect yourself against STDs. Yeah, the height of the AIDS epidemic. Yeah, and even though condoms have been around since Egyptian times, they were always used as just a form of contraception. Birth control, yeah.

Right. And so, yes. Is he the guy who's behind ACT UP or one of the people who was behind that? Or was that the same guy? That was Larry Kramer. Oh, yeah. Larry Kramer, who is also in the documentary. Yeah, there were a bunch of different groups working on it.

But Richard was more of, he and his doctor, Dr. Joseph Sonnabend, and this other activist named Michael Callen, the three of them are this kind of renegade, triumvirate, more kind of independent-minded, but based in a lot of fact and research about what was actually going on. They wrote the first, arguably, safe sex manual in the history of the crisis. And Larry Kramer, who's kind of gotten a lot of attention recently, especially with The Normal Heart, and he's had a big comeback. He was promoting abstinence, right? And so there was a big divide. Yeah, it was very confusing. The different gay leaders at that time were taking different approaches. Larry Kramer was saying, let's stop having sex. And that's the best way to protect ourselves from this disease right now is to just not even come into contact with it. And then, you know, there was this other extreme pro-sex, super pro-gay activists that were saying, no, we will continue to have sex and we don't need to wear condoms.

And so Richard Berkowitz, who's the subject of the documentary, he was fighting for the middle ground, which is we can keep having sex, let's just do it safely. But so that was the first documentary that it was my first film that just kind of fell on my lap because Zoe's mom happened to have known Richard for decades and

we met at a Passover Seder and he started talking to me about his S&M work in relation to the AIDS epidemic. Classic Seder discourse. Classic Seder discussion. And I was like, oh my God, that's fascinating and sounds really important. And I didn't learn anything about that when I was in school. They didn't teach that side of history about the AIDS epidemic or what gay men and women were going through at that time, you know, as fully as it sounds like you, you know, have written about it and talked about it. And so I was like, this sounds really interesting. So that was my first kind of political, you know, piece of filmmaking. And it was a, it was a celebrated doc, right? Like you won best documentary at Outfest.

A lot of people saw that movie. Yeah, it was great. It came out in theaters and played at the BFI in London and film festivals around the world. We premiered at the South by Southwest Film Festival in 2008. And it was exciting. And we made it on our own, totally independently. And Zoe was an associate producer on it. And that was kind of the beginning of our professional collaboration. We had only been dating for a year and a half or something. And that was just about the time that we started to enter into an open relationship of sorts, which was then the impetus

to make our second, my narrative debut film, Breaking Up Words. Right, which made for a very interesting profile in the New York Times. You guys. And that's almost like a whole other podcast. I don't want to get too far in the weeds on that.

But yeah, it's cool. And so ever since then, you guys have really collaborated on, on all your projects. I mean, you have your acting stuff, Zoe, of course, but, um, but, you know, that's another aspect of, of your lives that I want to get into as well. Like what it's like to work together and, you know, this Mr. Lister banner. But back to the movie for now, I mean, so given your experience in having made a documentary, I mean, was there ever a moment where you thought maybe the GMO world would be a fitting subject for a documentary, or was it always going to be

a narrative approach? Absolutely. I mean, there needs to be even more documentaries. Now there's been a few. GMOMG came out about it, and there's the world. Genetic Roulette. Yeah, Genetic Roulette Jeffrey Smith and the world, according to Monsanto, there's, there's a few documentaries out there. And I think there can be even more. I mean, there's so many layers to this topic, the research that we've been doing now for, you know, seven years, but we continue to do like

today, just in anticipation of this podcast, we were just like, you know, reviewing articles that we had read. And they just each article you read sparks some question that you're like, wait, I got to read this other article because there's so many facets to this world of GMOs. Each one sort of more complex and interesting than the next. So I think the research is kind of unending, which is overwhelming, but also exciting. And why people, I think, don't get it. I think it's why people shut down around it. It's hard to get.

It's incredibly Byzantine. And just today, in preparation for this podcast, I was like, all right, well, let me just see what the current conversations are right now. The subject of GMOs is something I've wanted to bring to the podcast for a very long time, but it's a very incendiary subject, obviously. Uh, and, and I've been reluctant to address it or confront it directly because I want to make sure that the person sitting across from me knows what they're talking about is vetted, you know, is substantial, you know, completely in, you know, completely,

you know, sort of embedded in the subject matter. And that person is very difficult to find, right? I'm not sure that I found that person yet. And in just poking around today, I'm like, let's just see, like when I just, when I just Google search, like latest research on GMOs, just see what comes up and like, look at it with an objective eye. And it's incredibly bifurcated, comes up and like look at it with an objective eye and it's incredibly bifurcated you know for every subject for every article that says uh gmos are safe i don't know why everyone's getting so crazy about it there's another article on the other side this is directly the opposite and then for example one article that popped up today was one on for that was on forbes.com and it was by this guy what's his name john John Entree, I think. And I'm like, oh, he's saying, oh, it's completely,

and I'm like, well, all right, well, who is this guy? Right, so then I Google him. Right, you gotta find him. And that's a whole tree of, you know, yeah, right. Like, and then I realized, oh, this guy's completely embedded by Syngenta and Monsanto. And you have to like really have your wits about you to kind of read between the

lines on all of this. But at the end of the day, I'm still left wondering, you know, it's like, totally, it's just as a as a concerned consumer who has some, perhaps a little bit more than the average person's knowledge about what's going on. I'm still left wondering and unsure. And we so are we, we are wondering every every day and we've been working on this film for seven years on and off and we've reached out to a number of you know uh scientists and researchers and leaders of this i mean yeah our film has been vetted by aaron brockovich and has the support of aaron brockovich by michael hansen who's the support of Aaron Brockovich, by Michael Hansen, who's one of the senior scientists at Consumers Union.

We are working with Gary Hirschberg at Just Label It, which is the organization that is really working to petition the FDA and Congress to get GMOs labeled in America. And there's, I think, 2 million signatures strong right now. And Gary just was in front of Congress at a hearing about GMO is labeled in America, and there's, I think, 2 million signatures strong right now. And Gary just was in front of Congress at a hearing about GMO labeling. Yeah, a Senate hearing that recently happened about the DARK Act, which is the kind of pseudonym for what the Accurate and Safe Food Labeling Act is actually called, because it's denying Americans right to know what is in our food. It's this law that is being pushed through right now

that they're trying to pass. It passed in the House of Representatives. It's now moving to the Senate, which would basically eliminate states' rights from ever being able to label states from ever being able to label GMOs. It preempts a mandatory labeling. And the few states that have already passed GMO labeling laws, like Connecticut and Vermont, they're embroiled in lawsuits right now. And they're trying to, basically what this act would do would overturn that. So anyway.

And also, just to interject for a second, I believe it also banned states from prevent it prohibits states from banning or regulating GMOs in any way. Right. It's crazy. Permanently. Right. For kind of forever. It's kind of a First Amendment right. And there was one congressman who called it the denying Americans right to know. Right. Which is the dark. Dark act. So, you know, we have as filmmakers, we don't have all the answers, but we have kind of been like investigative journalists, you know, learning as much as we can over, over the years. And I think at the end of the day, we just believe that we have a fundamental right to know what's in our food. I mean, every other food has ingredients on, on the label that shows you what's in it. And so for no one to really know that there

are genetically modified ingredients in the food, I think is, is really scary, you know? And the fact that there's precedent in 64 countries around the world. I mean, it's like we're being such a, you know, democratic superpower. The fact that there's no transparency in this arena is kind of shocking. But the same companies, same manufacturers that are making the food here, they're actually putting the labels on it

for the countries that require it overseas. But just not here. But just not here. So it's like... So it's like... I think so it's like i think the the the debate gets i mean there's certainly so much research that needs to be done we need long-term studies on human health etc and hopefully these studies are underway right now and continuing because there are a lot of answers that that we need that we don't quite have yet but i think

until we have those answers we need to proceed with caution, right? And we need to not get caught up in the sort of he said, she said game of safety versus non-safety. And if we can just, at least for now, focus the conversation on labeling, that would be a great first step. Yeah. I mean, I think like the scientific community is really divided and it, as you said, it's a really divisive debate all around when it comes to safety, especially in terms of human health. You know, there's a lot of complications around independent studies because these are patented seeds. So you have to have access to the seeds in order to study them. And so I think there are sort of inherent roadblocks in the way that GMOs are structured anyway, in terms of the corporate lockdown on them. But...

Intentionally so, I would imagine. Intentionally so, probably. But I mean, I think there's a lot of misinformation right now in terms of, you know, I think the safety is something that is obviously debatable because there hasn't been long term research. So you can't claim either way that they are safe or unsafe until we have those facts. But environmentally speaking, you know, GMOs are part and parcel with a lot of chemical inputs. And there's no debating how dangerous herbicides and pesticides are on human health before we get into the chemical thing i just want to say because what you're saying before rich which is about you know let's just deal with labeling first but the reason the labeling

movement can't get as much traction is because mass you know everyone is basically saying well gmos are safe so right they don't why do we need to label them? It goes hand in hand. And what I wanted to point out was that some of the most respected scientific bodies around the world are calling for more safety assessments to be done, like Codex Alimentarius, which is run by the World Health Organization and the Food and Agricultural Organization of the United Nations, the American Medical Association, the British Medical Association, the American Public Health Association, they've all stated that they favor pre-market safety assessments and that more research needs to be done on GMOs before we can really determine their safety. And sorry, in 2013, actually 300 scientists endorsed

a statement that there is no scientific consensus on the safety or health risks of eating genetically engineered food and that was reported in by the european network of scientists for social and environmental responsibilities so you have the mass media saying well gmos are safe and the science is decided but it's just not the case it's the science is actually divided and they're calling for more studies to be done in the name of science. Yeah. And I think too, you know, when it comes to, um, the studies being done in the safety, I mean, there's a lot of, um, nuanced scientific, you know, jargon that might be confusing about around the safety of GMOs, but basically there's no mandatory safety testing required by the FDA,

which is the biggest issue, because they adhere to this regulatory principle called substantial equivalence, which basically means if it looks like corn and tastes like corn, it's corn. If the few basic components like the proteins and fats are the same, then it's essentially the same. They don't require testing. That's crazy. But at the same time, they're so different that they require a patent.

So there's this inherent paradox where it's like, well, this seems to me like a regulatory loophole that totally goes against the basic principle in your patenting these life forms. against the basic principle in your patenting these life forms. To patent something, it has to be different, distinctly unique and different from what is normal. Sorry, I was going to say, yeah, even extending that paradox, if the assertion is that they're safe, then labeling shouldn't be an issue. Exactly. Because there's nothing to be afraid of. And then beyond that, you know, sort of if if if and when the dark act pass passes, there's this argument that, well, it's it's being regulated. So the public doesn't have to worry about it. Yeah, it's not. But if it but if it passes, it becomes self-regulated. The industry is regulating itself. Well, the industry is already is already. They only do 90 90day trials on GMOs.

They don't do long-term studies. And who's overseeing those trials? Nobody. And this is the issue, is that you have the FDA spokesperson, Teresa Eisman, saying it is the manufacturer's responsibility, and I quote, to ensure that GMO food products it offers for sale are safe. Meanwhile, you have Monsanto's spokesperson, Phil Engel, saying, Monsanto should not have to vouchsafe the safety of biotech food. Our interest is in selling as much of it as possible. Assuring its safety is the FDA's job.

So thus the paradox. They're all just like passing the buck, basically, and there is no regulatory practice that is kind of safeguarding these foods, which have now become so pervasive that, I mean, I don't have the statistics in front of me, but I think it's 93% of corn and over 90% of soy, which in processed food, it makes up, I think, 80% of the food in our supermarkets. So we're being exposed to this stuff, you know, so intensely without really any knowledge or given any choice in the matter because of the lack of labeling. Right. But then we, at least in California and state by state,

consumers are being given the choice. There are referendums where, you know the consumer can vote for labeling and consistently uh these organizations have been able to convince consumers to defeat those right defeat those uh those ballot because the biotech lobby is so strong they're they convince people that it's going to increase the cost of their food which is not true which the center you know, Just Label It had a study done on whether or not food prices would rise for average consumers. And the answer is no, they will not rise. And I mean, you look at our food labels, like every, you know, Disney movie, every Super Bowl, the labels are constantly changing to promote, you know, these, these corp, these, you know, other sort of pop culture, um, sensations. So, and that's not raising our food prices. We see label labels change all the time. And it's not like we're afraid to regulate. I mean,

just watch any pharmaceutical ad. I mean, it's crazy the amount of regulation that goes on in every other aspect of our life. Yeah. And, and I mean, you know, these are foods like when you look at, um, the corn, for example, it's, it's, there's something called BT corn, which is what GMO corn is. It's, there's an insecticide in the corn itself, which is being released. So, you know, these are like very novel and new foods that we're eating that are not being tested, which is a really terrifying new era of agriculture. And I think just the idea that we wouldn't label these very new and novel foods is outrageous. And you have a New York Times poll saying 93% of Americans favor labeling GMOs. I mean, people, I think, want to know.

But I think when you get back to the safety, it's the two separate issues, the safety of the actual genetically modified organism, and then how that relates to the actual chemical herbicides that are being sprayed on GMOs, which is what Zoe was getting at before, which is how is that affecting our health? How are chemicals impacting us and the environment if they're being sprayed at such high volumes now? Well, because, can I just interject

since you interjected before? No, you're seeing the dynamic of working. It's okay, Rich and I have that in town. This is what I was going to say about the chemical inputs, was just that basically the way that GMOs work with this chemical called glyphosate is that they're herbicide-resistant crops, so that you are able to spray more herbicide without killing the plants. You're just killing the weeds around the plants.

So it's actually, instead of decreasing chemical inputs, it's increasing them. And in this country... It's increased by 527 million pounds since they were introduced in 1996. Between 1996 and 2011, and that's reported by Environmental Sciences Europe, which is a crazy amount. And glyphosate, which is the main chemical herbicide, is linked to potentially causing cancer. The World Health Organization labeled it a probable carcinogen. Right. eating genetically modified foods in whatever form the derivative or, you know, however they're coming into your body or the body of animals or the environment, they are also married to

the chemical herbicide that is on them. So, and the environmental working group, which is a great organization, um, did this study that showed that, 3,000 elementary schools are within 1,000 feet or less of GM fields. Meaning, you know, like so many kids in this country are in way direct contact with a probable carcinogen. Well, and the food that they're eating every day at school is also completely... Right, which I think, you know know like that's when it becomes divisive so it's like if you can't fight on the safety of the food itself you can definitely look at just coming into contact with a probable carcinogen in in in the air you know and drift is a very real thing in these rural communities so and it's in it they're finding glyphosate in 60 did you say

this 60 to 100 percent of the rainwater in the midwest now has glyphosate in 60, did you say this? 60 to a hundred percent of the rainwater in the Midwest now has glyphosate in it. And that is a study done by the school of public health by the university of Minnesota. I mean, it's in the air, it's in the water, they're fine. Yeah. It's in the soil animals. Even if you're like, okay, I'm not going to eat this corn yeah if you're eating a burger you know it that that animal has fed on gmo foods its entire life exactly soy lecithin high fructose corn syrup those are the concentrated forms of the genetically modified corn and soy and you read some things that were very interesting that you just told me again and every day you find another fact that's interesting about cotton yeah and in argent in Argentina, they just did a

study that tested BT cotton. Again, it's this, it's called basilis thuringienis, which is the GMO version of cotton, which again is an insecticide that the plant itself produces. self-produces. And they found that 85% of tampons, cotton, and sanitary products tested contained glyphosate. 100% of cotton and sterile cotton gauze contained glyphosate, which is really just insane. I mean, this is one study. So you're in a hospital and they're putting cotton on you in a supposedly sterile, clean, healthy environment. And it has traces of glyphosate. Of a probable carcinogen. Possibly carcinogenic chemical.

That's amazing. Back to your point about schools and proximity to GM fields. I mean, I think that's why Hawaii is such a battleground right now. Because so much GM testing is going on on Hawaii it's like this perfect petri dish for them to perfect these you know new genetic modified foods and crops and herbicides etc and and there's a lot of drift that blows over into school yards and and people are really you know up in arms there. Like that's the one place where I feel like activism is really, um, kind of, uh, gotten a foothold where perhaps here it isn't because, you know, we're in California, like unless you're living in the bread basket and if

you are living in the bread basket, then that's how you're making your living. Right. So there's an inherent conflict there. Yeah. Oh, it was really interesting because we filmed Consumed in rural Illinois. And so we got to talk to farmers. After having spent all these years doing research from afar, we were then kind of planted in the belly of the beast. Which, you know, when you're actually talking to people who this is their livelihood, I was actually expecting the farmers we were talking to to really defend gmos because it was their livelihood and that's not the case at all we had a bunch of farmers that were saying that and we had we met with a we interviewed and and had one farmer really get into it with us who has both organic and gmo so he's a seed distributor yeah but he was a farmer and a seed distributor he's doing both and and he said that his organic was performing better than his gmos were and not in terms of sales but

in terms of actually yield wow over time yeah yeah most studies will will show you if you if you research them that organic has the highest yields um which is so ironic because they're promoting it as yeah higher yields. That's not true. The yields are not increased. It's a false bill of goods. Organic has the highest yields. It's just the premiums are so high. And I think, you know, it comes back to what are the motivating factors behind pushing GM foods on our country and the world. You know, I think profit is a big motivating factor more than yields or feeding a starving population in the face of, you know, I think profit is a big motivating factor more than yields or feeding a starving population in the face of, you know, world hunger. And I think, you know, when you look

at what the government, what our government is subsidizing, they could easily be subsidizing organics, but that's not where the profit lies. Yeah. To be, to be, to certify as organic, as an organic farmer is so costly. And that's why you see so many, you go to a farmer's market and you see so many of these proprietors that are basically saying to you, our food is basically organic, but we just can't put the certified thing because we can't afford to actually go through the protocols and process to actually certify it. And so just like Zoe's saying, I mean, why can't we give subsidies to the actual good food as opposed to subsidizing all this crap processed food that's in every grocery aisle? The subsidies are just such a huge problem across the board for so many reasons. I mean,

it drives, you know, the socioeconomics of food in general. And it's a big reason why, you know, under sort of underclass uh populations are unhealthy because the only food that they can afford is subsidized food which translated is fast food and processed food so you know organic and the like is just out of reach yeah yeah and look you want to talk about like one of the main tenants of the pro biotech, you know, side of, of this equation and what they, what they say all the time. One of the talking points is GMOs are saving the world. They're, they're going to save the world. They're going to feed the world. The truth of the matter is, and this is a fact, we have enough food already to feed the world. It's not about making

more food. It is about distributing food it's about the access roads and and delivery systems those are what's flawed those are the problems in terms of being able to feed people yeah there's a line in the keynote talk that i always give which is that um we're already we're already producing enough food to feed 10 billion people it's just that all that all that food is going to livestock, right? It's going to raise animals. It's going to, it's going to, to biofuels and it's exactly, it's going to, to, to feed the animals, which were then eating right through. I mean, livestock is inherently incredibly inefficient. It's like for, it takes 26 calories to produce one calorie the way that

we raise animals for food. So it doesn't really make sense as population continues to explode, but it's true. All that food in the breadbasket of the United States is really going to livestock feed. It's not going to feed humans. So we really, you know, global hunger could be solved by reallocation. That's right. And it's, but it's also, there's an interesting tie into climate change, which is you're, they're spending so much money on these factory farms and on big agriculture, agribusiness, that is where the environmental, where it's really impacting the environment. Of course, absolutely.

And you talk about trying to cut carbon emissions. Well, how about we start there? Yeah, I mean, I think the idea that GMOs are, we don't need to worry about them because they've been vetted and they're safe. It's just one drop in the bucket of the implications that they have on just our world and climate change in general is like, this is GMOs are part and parcel with an industrial agricultural model that is destroying our world. And there's this, you know, this, this, this horrible argument that's going around that, you know, GMO pro, sorry, anti-GMO activists or proponents are essentially like climate change deniers. It's like, it's emotional. It's not fact-based. Well, you know,

climate change is very fact based. And anyone who's a climate change denier at this point in time is essentially crazy. But this is also wanting to get into the facts of the science. And as we said before, they just have not come to a consensus on whether GMOs are safe. There's an interesting line in the movie where Victor Garber, who by the way, is amazing. That guy's good in everything, right? He's just like the best, right? So he plays the CEO of Clinestra, which is an analog for, you know, fill in the blank. And you guys made a very interesting choice. It would have been very easy, perhaps lazy, to just make him an outright villain, to villainize him,

because he's playing the role of the guy who's in charge of basically propagating GMO foods and sort of GMO research to benefit this giant corporation that he's at the helm of. But instead, you decide to make him very human. And he has his own personal challenges and professional challenges. And, you know, so the audience can actually kind of empathize with his real world kind of view and walk a mile in his shoes. And there's a moment in the film where he's sort of presenting this new technology to some farmers. And he basically says, it's about you guys. It's about the farmers.

And it's so ironic because it's not about the farmers at all, you know, which brings me back to, you know, this discussion that we're having about who stands to gain here, like who really stands to gain. And when you look at, you know, whether it's Monsanto or Syngenta or one of these other companies, they've created these completely vertically integrated models where they own the seeds, they own all the patents, they own the patents on the herbicides. And in order to use the herbicide, you got to use the seed. And then you have to become a farmer who is then

sort of indentured to monopolization. And so of course, this is the ultimate business model to control our food system. So it's not about anything other than that really and so they can hide behind this message of you know we're saving the world or we're feeding the world but like let's take a little closer look at that and and look we you know there's a lot of noble pursuits there's you know to add vitamins to different genetically modified foods, to help disease and... Drought-tolerant crops for Africa. Grow crops in places that they can't be grown, couldn't grow before. These all sound good in theory.

We believe wholeheartedly in science. It's just about taking the time to really test it. Right, let's slow down. And slow down and go through the actual process and not be so profit-driven and control-driven. And at the same time, I think there needs to be a push to educate people more about good, healthy, whole foods and organic foods. Right. I think there was a quote at the end of your movie when the credits are rolling

where it says 54% of Americans know little to nothing about GMO. And what was great, you have these, you sort of flash these quotes at the end and then they're footnoted. Yeah. You're looking closely. Yeah. I was like, where can I read those footnotes? Where do you get them? They're at the end of the credits. It's got to sit all the way through.

You can read the whole article. You know, it's such a hotly contested subject, as we've already touched upon, that Daryl and I went kind of crazy. Well, you have to. Yeah, you have to, because the second you make a claim, there's a thousand people who are going to say,

well, where did you get that information? And like you said, for every article that you read that says GMOs are safe, there's another one that says they're not safe or vice versa. But I wanted to just talk about, you know, feeding the world and kind of the motivating factors behind GMOs especially. And that like when it comes to food security, which I'm still so shocked that Bill Gates is like one of the biggest proponents of GMOs. And he talks about food security and developing nations that that's what GMOs are really, you know, going to help solve. And if you really do your research, I mean, the way to achieve food security, outside of the fact that there is enough food, as we mentioned, and that it's about distribution and access, is about sustainable farming practices.

Because the only way to get to food security is to give people food sovereignty, where they are not indentured to a corporation, where they're not indentured to chemical inputs, where they can actually create a sustainable mode of farming that allows them to have have that direct access to food in their own backyard and you know there's this this thing called golden rice that that's like a big red herring for the biotech lobby where they say well we're making this this rice that's going to eradicate blindness in in south asia because it has levels of vitamin A that, you know, can't be found in rice, in conventional rice. And when you look at the actual facts behind that, it's like there are so many ways to absorb vitamin A through vegetables and fruits that already have it. And that if we actually gave, if we taught these developing communities

how to grow those vegetables and fruits in their own backyards, that would eradicate vitamin A deficiency so much more rapidly than the 20 plus years that they've been trying to do research and the $10 dollars that's gone towards this golden rice research research which to this day has still not been commercialized so it's like that's the biggest success story that they tout is golden rice it's not on the market that's never

been commercialized in 20 years and they started it by using the wrong rice yeah i mean there's they've been had so many technical difficulties in even achieving a vitamin A-infused rice when there are so many other ways, even just with food supplements and food fortifications, that would achieve the same means. But they're not about monopolizing a market and making these farmers dependent on large corporations. And to talk about monopolization, I mean, it's super scary to think of a future where we just have five crops. I mean, can you imagine if we just had, like,

what happens if one of those crops becomes susceptible to some super weed or super bug, which are actually happening because of this? Oh, no, we'll master that. We've mastered that. Yeah, exactly. I mean, behind it all is an incredible hubris. Behind it all is this idea that as human beings, we can outsmart nature, right? And whether it's through glyphosate or whatever is going to come after glyphosate. And, you know, the history of mankind, the history of the planet speaks otherwise. It's like nature will find a way. Just look at the way, you know, flu viruses, you know, sort of morph and change in the period of time between when they

figure out what the flu vaccination is going to be and then when they're actually administering the shots like nature finds a way and they're already seeing like you said these super bugs that are finding their way around yeah glyphosate glyphosate is not the end end game here you know it's going to continue and then they're going to have to do find a figure out an even more powerful herbicide and they already and they already are they're using they're they're starting to use 2,4-D which constitutes one half of the defoliant in Agent Orange during Vietnam the harshest chemical almost in the history of the world and I mean it's a toxic soup that is contaminating food water and soil I mean it just is oh. Because I think we are tampering with nature in this way,

which is vastly different than cross-breeding, which is another argument that you hear on the biotech lobby side, which is that we've been doing this for centuries. It's a very different process. Calm down, people. We know what we're doing. What we were doing for centuries was crossbreeding like plants and organisms that are of the same species.

What, what genetic engineering is doing is it's, it's taking the DNA, the genetic material from one species that's entirely different from another and transferring it into that. So what is that doing? And you have to use a virus or a bacterium in order to do that.

Yeah, it's mixing genes. It's frankenfood. I mean, there's no other way about it. So I mean, yeah. So I think just this idea that this is something that has been a part of our history of agriculture is just completely false. Yeah, that's a big

argument that's used. Like we've been doing this for a long time. We weren't altering. This isn't any different. And you know, it is, it is qualitatively different as the world health organization said that genetically genetic engineering is altering. It's altering it in a way that does not occur naturally i mean there's not a more clear simple way to put it it's what is natural is natural it's coming from mother nature it's it's it's not being changed on a genetic level so when you guys decided to uh take this on i mean did you have did you know like if you knew yeah like if you knew then what you know now would you have chosen differently i mean did you realize sort of the gravity and the kind of, you know?

In the beginning we did, and seven years ago, when we just were like, oh, this is so interesting and could be a cool thriller. And then we realized, wow, this is really profound. I mean, it's really affecting us all. And, you know, there's so many people fighting for noble causes, like we need to save, we need to cure cancer. That is a great, I think, perfect thing to point out that, you know, we spend so many billions of dollars on cancer research institutes and how to, you know, solve that problem. And so many, you see it, the World Series, you know, they problem and so many you see at the world series you know they make

an announcement about about cancer and it's like it's pretty it's easy to get to the root of some of the issues that cause cancer it's like look at the food and the environment that we're making that we're consuming it's like the fuel that goes into a car it's the same analogy the food that we're eating is the fuel of our body that is what is charging us every day and and moving us so it's the same analogy the food that we're eating is the fuel of our body that is what is charging us every day and and moving us so it's like redistribute some of the money that we're spending on some of those on just continually trying to come up with solutions to the new problem that is created by the same well they're not getting to the cost get to the root of the problem yeah they're like let's treat cancer at the end you know as opposed to preventing it in

the first place and looking at what the actual causal factors. Yes. But I just need to say, I mean, yes, I mean, but the problem is, is the problem is in that statement that they are profit oriented over and above any other principle of living and being in a life. And so, you know, people need to take self responsibility. They need to understand. So, you know, people need to take self-responsibility. They need to understand. I mean, all of this information, you guys are so well informed and, you know, you're so heroic and you guys made an amazing movie and I'm a huge fan of you. You're, you're a beautiful couple and beautiful individually. And, you know, you're really doing something meaningful and it's, it's really, it really

is something. So, so, you know, thank you. It's really amazing to be here with you. And again, but you know, when we bring it all down, it's like the science is overwhelming. And it's like there's so many of this and so many of that. And you can just start to spin out. But it's like as you demonstrated in the movie, you bring it back to the personal. And what is happening is we all have family members.

We have children. We have loved ones. We have ourselves. And we are getting sick. We have children. We have loved ones. We have ourselves. And we are getting sick. And these undiagnosed diseases are showing up and they are affecting our lives.

And we need to take responsibility and put us before this whole idea of capitalism or the way business works. The human being comes first. The mother and the child comes first which is what you presented yeah and i think it was i think like you were saying that was beautifully stated julie um and thank you for all your kind words i i think you know it was important that we didn't demonize corporations in our film because i think it does if we want to look at at the sort of larger issue from a human standpoint then everyone has to be humanized, right? We have to have empathy coming from all directions, say, okay, well, you've got shareholders

to answer to. So we get that you're profit oriented, but let's all take a step back and really look at the root cause of all of the things that are plaguing us as a country and as a world. And I wanted to just say, you know, when it comes to like our country, especially being, you know, so wealthy and yet so sick and, and, and this dichotomy of the poorest people in our country being the most obese, which around the world you've never seen, right? The poorest people are, are, are starving generally. And so how is this paradox playing out? And that food allergies have increased by like 265%, the CDC reported in the last 10 years. And this idea that like to eat healthy is just for the wealthy. Yeah, and people can't afford organic.

That people can't afford organic and that GMOs are kind of a first world problem. Like that those of us who are fighting this fight are kind of, it's a bourgeois cause, celeb. You know, it's so much deeper than that. And when we first started looking into it, we had no idea the implications or quite how pervasive this issue was and would turn out to be.

But the American Medical Association said that we spend $25 billion a year on food allergies from medical care to pharmaceuticals. from medical care to pharmaceuticals, which is, I mean, we could be saving so much money if, again, if we got to the root cause of where these allergies were coming from and if we really looked at it from a holistic perspective. So I think the idea that, you know, well, poor people can't afford healthy food, they could be way more cost effective if they were saving on medical bills after they eat all of the processed foods that are making them ill to begin with. Well, that's, that's what I always say. You know, people say to me all the time when we're speaking and traveling and, and, you know, sharing the recipes from our book and they say, well, it isn't eating organic really expensive. Isn't it just so expensive? And my reply is, uh, illness is quite expensive. Yeah. Do you want to pay for it in the

long run? I don't think you do. Yeah. I mean, because you're going to be paying those doctor bills at some point if you're just eating processed food. Yeah, but that's later. Right. But that's later.

You don't have to think about it now. I think also, and this is something. My self-driving car is going directly to the comments. And then to the hospital. No, I think, I think,

you know, oh no, what was I just going to say? I don't know, but I want to talk about the genetically modified salmon that's coming. Oh, yeah, that's on the horizon. Do they have two heads? Genetically modified salmon is pending FDA approval, but FDA has come out officially supporting it. And, I mean, this could be on our dinner plates very soon.

Not on ours. Except on yours. So, so if you are plant-based out there, then you're totally fine. Although you're eating a lot of soy and corn. But if it is approved, it will be the first genetically modified, genetically engineered animal. Animal. Do they, what did they take? Where did the, the, the sort of extraterrestrial DNA come from in that case? A pout fish that is making salmon grow, I think, twice as fast and twice as big. It's something like that.

It just does not sound good. I mean, come on. It doesn't sound good. But of course, you know, they're saying it's safe. And look, if a genetically modified salmon were to get out into the wild, which they're saying there's no way it ever could. I'm sorry.

It's just that you can't say that. I mean, if there's a river near a facility and it's somehow, I mean, who knows the distribution or the facilities have any kind of, you know, issue there with something happening. But if a genetically modified salmon were to ever get out in the wild and mate with a regular salmon, we will never again know if we're eating a wild, natural salmon. I mean, just the thought of that, how genetic engineering is impacting biology and the environment from that point of view is crazy. It's totally irreversible. It's the same with the seeds, though, too, right? The seeds are blowing everywhere, and it's like basically even organic farms. It's inevitable that it all just is going to become a blend of some sort.

Nature has its way. Exactly. We're already so beyond the point of turning back. I mean, the fact that over 90% of soy and corn in this country is already genetically modified. I mean, not even, you know, accounting for all of the ways in which it's drifted to non-GMO fields and organic fields. I think that's what's most terrifying,

is it's like we can, that labeling is kind of this effort to at least give us a choice, but the choice is becoming less and less realistic. And so cavalierly, like, oh, don't worry about it. Like, we figured it out. Like, without really doing, how could you know that if there hasn't been long-term human testing?

You know, just sort of like, oh, we did enough testing to kind of pass FDA muster in our little self-regulating world really is not convincing, right? So wherever you fall on the equation, I think wouldn't every prudent person want to see long-term tests that show whatever, in whatever way, in the most objective way possible, what this means.

And animal feeding studies too, which is like, it's not just field trials. I mean, we have to see long-term animal feeding studies, which are very rare. And, you know, the hearing that just happened in relation to the DARK Act in front of the Senate, you know, it was completely stacked against the organic green side of the equation. I mean, it was like everyone there had some tie to biotech. Well, the broccoli farmers don't have some K Street lobbying group that they can bankroll. I mean, it was really depressing to see how, you know, at that level, it's just so rigged in the favor of big agribusiness. And, you know, what they were debating about was this idea of labeling and how to do it. And there's this notion that's been put forward of, well, you know, and this is an approach that I don't think is the best approach, which is let's just put on a QR code on the box, which would be a barcode that people would have to get out their cell phones.

They'd have to download an app to be able to read the barcode. You need a QR reader. I mean, maybe there's like a thousand people that are doing that right now in america and and then then you go to the that links you to the website to for the actual biotech company's food and you can read in the fine print there about what the ingredients i mean it's insane it's like just get get some language on there just like they do in europe you know that says this food is genetically engineered. Yeah, we flew Air France.

We were just in France. We flew Air France back. And they had little, like, chocolates that they were handing out. And I looked at the ingredients on the chocolates, and it said GM soy lecithin. And I was like, I had to, like, blink and, like, look at it again because I had never seen the word GM in front of soy lecithin. Yeah. And I was like, oh, bless you, Air France. You're fighting the good fight.

And a lot of these big companies that create these foods, they create two different products. They create a product for Europe and they create a product for the United States. I mean, yeah, in Europe, they're much less tolerant of these kinds of things, so they'll produce the version of the food that does not avail itself of GM ingredients. In the United States, it's like it's a free-for-all. I think the way that you see a lot of the portrayal of Europe's aversion to GM foods, in this country at least, is that, again, it's just fear-mongering. It's anti-science. I think that's the thing that needs to be

subverted more than anything else in terms of the discourse around GMOs is that this is actually a call to action for science. It's like that science should not be able to be bought by corporations, that we need independent scientists who are willing to do this work. And we need cooperation from corporations to give access to the seeds work. And we need cooperation from corporations to give access to the seeds so that we can all at least come to a consensus. If they're safe, then they're safe. But at least we have that, that peace of mind. Yeah. Transparency across the board. Right. And we need to know when scientists go on television or write articles on Forbes or whatever, we need to know like who's funding, if they're being funded by these

interests, like we need to know that there's a if they're being funded by these interests like we need to know that there's a guy do you know this guy ken folta yeah kevin folta kevin folta right yeah he was making the rounds a while back as the sort of voice of reason when it comes to gmo and sort of as an independent researcher at the university of florida exactly he went on joe rogan and for three hours talked about how you know there's nothing to be concerned about and then like a month later front page of the New York times, like sort of pulling covers on that guy and, and demonstrating that no, in fact, he really was in the pocket. He was on Monsanto's payroll. There was some email where he said like, Oh, you'll be very

happy. Your money's well spent, you know, on Monsanto's payroll. I have to say like, you know, um, like in articles, he was, he was always the go-to independent scientist who would like shame any anti-GMO activist or anyone who was calling into question the safety of GMOs. And he was always kind of revered as like the voice of reason and he always came out saying I am independent I am not funded by any biotech corporations and the fact that now it's come to light that that he was funded and that like you said like he wrote your money was well spent I mean this is this was something like that like I don't want to get like sued or no no no totally like you know it was I'm paraphrasing loosely I don't know exactly what he said, but I know, just on my Twitter feed, I started getting

followed by some really intense people who every time I would post anything about the movie would come out and say something like, you know, about the safety of GMOs or whatever. And I was so freaked out by it. And when you look at like the sort of thriller and noir elements of our film, out by it and when you look at like the sort of thriller and noir elements of our film they sort of then start the lobby is so strong it's so pervasive i mean and well there are people that are getting paid to yeah just have twitter accounts yeah exactly like i had um vani hari on the podcast he's the food babe and and kevin folter really went after her yeah i mean she gets crushed and when but when you look at the people that are doing the crushing, it, it, it always originates back to these plants.

Like you go to these Twitter accounts and it's just 500 tweets in a row that are anti food, babe. And whether you like the food, babe, or not, like, I happen to think like there's way too much controversy about her. She's just a consumer advocate. It's like raising a discussion. And she's actually really effective. But when she starts to threaten the interests of these they come after her and then it's very

convincing the average person sees that and jumps on that bandwagon and so that was a question that i had for you guys like are you experiencing any of that like has there been some reprisals we haven't really experienced anything yet i mean the movie is just starting to come out but you know look our movie our movie is fictionalized. It is inspired by the food industrial complex, everything that is actually going on out there. And, you know, we have a great law firm behind the film, Donaldson Califf, say that on the record.

Oh, Michael Donaldson. Donaldson Califf helps vet the film. I know both of them. And Aaron Brockovich, who I don't think anyone wants to mess with her these days. That's amazing. But, you know, look, the lobby is so strong and scary, and I think that is what is contributing to so many problems. I wanted to say that in 2015 alone, some of these major corporations like General Mills and Pepsi and

Coca-Cola and Kellogg's, they spent over $10 million lobbying to block mandatory GMO labeling. I mean, the money that they're dumping in to keep people in the dark on these issues, which is why Just Label It started the Conceal or Reveal campaign and are trying to get, you know, shed light on what is going on are trying to get, you know, shed light on what is going on so that people understand, you know, how in the dark we are. An important point I want to make sure it comes across is that your movie is entertaining.

It's not a documentary. Yeah, it's not a documentary. And it not a documentary. Yeah, it's not a documentary. And it's also, you know, it is somewhat, it's not like this super ardent, like anti-GMO message that you're being blasted with. It's just, it's very human stories. You know, you have the mother and the child, Zoe, you play the mother beautifully,

and who has a sick child who goes on this Erin Brockovich type journey to try to, you know, figure out what is going on. And that puts her in contact with Danny Glover, the farmer and the scientists. And ultimately, this Victor Garber character, the CEO and all these kinds of worlds collide. But at the end of the day,

these are just human beings living their lives. And this is a dramatic- It's an entertaining thriller. Yeah, and that's first and foremost, we're filmmakers. We wanted to make a interesting movie. None of us are scientists, nor do we know anything on a podcast. Right, and while we're here on the podcast, you know,

talking about so many of the real-world issues, which, you know, we really do care about, I think that people, whatever, whether you know nothing about GMOs or you are pro-GMO or anti-GMO, I think you can watch this movie. And take something from it. Yeah, take something from it. It gets you thinking, but it's a thriller. Like, it's a thriller.

It's just you get engaged in a kind of fun, classic, cinematic way, just like that harkens back to some of those. Like Silkwood. Yeah, the Silkwood and All the President's Men, those fun 1970s political thrillers that didn't shy away from the issues. But yeah, I'm glad you brought that up. Thank you for doing that, because we could get carried away

because we're so passionate about the issues. I think as individuals, we've come to our own conclusions, but in terms of the film's message... The film doesn't draw any conclusions. It raises questions, that's all. It doesn't. We're very clear about

making it not have anything definitive. No, there's no definitive statement in the movie one way or the other. It's really just raising every point. Donaldson and Califf are probably happy. But you know, we did have to get it vetted because

not just by Donaldson and Califf, but by leaders in the organic movement and the people who have been fighting this fight for so many years and that they've devoted, you know, their blood, sweat and tears to that. We had such a larger responsibility as filmmakers than we've ever had before to get, you know, make sure that we were never doing a disservice to the work that these people had been doing for so long and continue to do. And so we did have to make changes. We had to be really, really careful and go through every single element of the film with a fine-tooth comb to make sure that we were serving, I think, both sides of this debate fairly. Yeah, I mean, and it's crazy, you know, some of the people that we've talked to, they've been, they devoted their entire lives to this

issue. I mean, there, there were moments throughout this process and I've said this to Zoe where I'm like, should I just become a GMO activist and stop making movies? I was like, should I just quit? I mean, I, this is like, we're so deep in it at this point. Like I'm, I could just see myself going and working for one of these nonprofits and just spending the rest of my life, like, getting people to know how to eat healthy food. But, you know, it's so, and then I see these amazing activists who are so tired and so feel the exhaustion level. They're pretty defeated. the exhaustion level defeated quality in their voices and frustration and anger and how hard it is to get anything accomplished is so sad to see and demoralizing to witness that it just makes me think okay i'm gonna stick to movies but i do think that yeah no i'm just gonna say it's just like you know you don't see them being represented in the news about these issues.

You know, like the Organic Consumers Association, the Environmental Working Group, Center for Food Safety, none of them were invited to the hearing on labeling GMOs. And these are some of the most scientifically sound organizations in the country. You know, so it's just it's just really shocking. Do you do you see yourself continuing this battle are you going to move on to the next thing i mean i don't know we'll have to see what happens there's definitely a team there's a tv show that could come like this movie i feel like could turn into a tv show that just like continues on season after season investigating the issues i mean for better or worse you like, you are ambassadors of this movement just by making this movie. And with that comes a certain level of responsibility.

And I do think that, I think it's impossible to, to turn away from it at this point, you know, not just that we're so deep or have been learning about it for so long. I think, I think the gravity of the situation is, is pretty devastating. Emotionally, it's just, it's like devastating. And I think how perpetually kind of humiliated anti-GMO activists are in the public discourse is like something that I feel really strongly needs to shift. And I think, you know, a big part of this movie not being a documentary is, is to reach that broader audience so that in the public discourse, this can be some, be something that is at the front of people's minds when we're talking about, you know, health and wellness, and that it's not just a fear- based emotional issue,

that this is something that is like, so pervasive on so many levels. I don't look at it as black, black and white, that it's just evil versus good. I mean, I understand how complicated this is, in terms of, you know, the motivating factors. But I think it is something that on a consumer level, we could take a much larger stand on as a country. Well, exactly. And then voting with your dollars. You know, everything is labeled. And as parents of children and individuals, we need to know what we're eating. I mean, just for many, many reasons, for many other reasons.

But if we turn a blind eye or we choose to not take responsibility and get involved in it, it will visit us in various forms in our own personal lives. And, you know, there's no escaping it because your own food and finding heirloom seeds and getting involved with your farmers, you know, going to the farmer's market, you know, connecting with those people on a deeper level. This is very, very, very important. And, you know, the science is vast and the internet is very confusing and politics is more, they're more confusing. But I really have, you know, huge faith and hope in your film because you've presented an incredibly entertaining piece of art. It's very well done. Thank you so much.

Very well written. Thank you so much. And Zoe, your performance is extraordinary. You made me cry more than once. And the actor that played your child, what's his name? His name's Nick Bond. He was amazing. Yeah, really, really incredible.

And we found him in Illinois. He was sitting next to us at a farmer's brunch. Oh, wow. Perfect. And I said, oh my God, this kid looks so amazing. He's so authentic. We had gone through casting in Chicago, and we didn't fall in love with anyone,

and then we're sitting at this farmer's brunch, and Daryl was like, excuse me, do you want to act? Do you want to act in a movie i mean he'd never acted before and you know his parents you know it was a totally new experience and but they were so great and and you know it was really exciting to to really be in like the heartland like zoe was saying before with these people that are really living these lives, you know, around so much farmland. And I was going to say that our catering and craft services,

this may be, I obviously don't know, I can't speak for every food, I mean, film production that's ever happened, but I can proudly say that our production was entirely non-GMO sourced for all the catering and the craft services and was almost entirely organic as well from the farm. Especially since you're on a budget. We were on a really small budget and I have to say organic and non-GMO companies really came out and supported the film

and donated a lot of stuff. They better. Yeah. I know. came out and supported the film and donated a lot of stuff. They better. Yeah. I know. It was cool. And it was like the way we made the movie was totally independent. Like to get to Mr. Lister, you know, our production company, Mr. Lister Films, we did it on our own.

We didn't have any production company or studio behind us. We raised the money through friends and family and have some really great executive producers that really believed in the story and the message and i just saw kevin connelly tweeted yeah kevin connelly entourage yeah he's he's one of the eps and uh and yeah he's it was really great to go and do it on our own because we could really just tell the story that we wanted to tell. And it was very similar to the grassroots movement as a whole.

It was like we were an organic organism that in order for us to function strongly, every department had to be working together. And our distribution model, we are now releasing the film through this company called gather which is also again it's kind of mimicking the grassroots uh movement of of organics and and wellness in this country which is it's basically a theatrical on-demand release which is a pretty new model um in terms of distribution, and we're really excited to be a part of it.

But basically it means that right now it's available in 123 cities across the country, which means if enough people in each city reserve a ticket in advance, the screening happens. So it's basically a crowdfunded theatrical release, but I think a big part of it is relying on our community of people who are invested in health and in wellness to show up and to support the film and to get this conversation started.

And yeah, the way people can see it is if you go to the website, ConsumeTheMovie.com, you can go to see the film and you can type in, it's easy, you type in your zip code and you can see where the film easy you type in your zip code and you can see where the film is playing so right now like zoe was saying we have over 100 screenings in the first couple weeks of december of 2015 but they can continue all the way throughout 2016 i mean anyone's demand yeah as long as there's demand exactly anyone can just say i want to

request a screening or you can host a screening i mean you can host one right here in the Malibu area. And then it's just up to you to promote it to your friends and family, any organizations in the area. And then it can become this kind of fun community event where everyone goes and you can talk about these issues. Yeah, I love it. It's so cool. I love to see these new distribution models and platforms creeping up. We experienced that with cowspiracy this documentary that we're involved in they they went with a similar they use tug which is kind of analogous

there's probably some very slight differences but um but yeah they were just crowdfunded screenings and they had i think they had like 200 something a lot like that went on and and and the the filmmakers were just in a van driving around as they could yeah and it's just amazing that there was that much of a, you know, when there's that many people interested in that subject matter, what can be accomplished? It was really, I would have never thought like that many screenings would have occurred. And I, I can see the same thing happening here. And I think it's great. It's very, it, you know, it stays very true to your kind of DIY indie roots. Um, and it, and it, it is, it, it, it does make it a grassroots thing. And I

think that, um, you know, if people are listening who are intrigued and interested, I can't encourage you enough to go to the movie. I mean, it's fabulous. So go to the, go to the website, request a screening, get your friends together and like make an evening of it. Because I really think that, um, especially with, you know, movies like yours or like Cowspiracy that are so kind of, you know, have this socially conscious message. It's a great way to spark a dialogue, you know, and it's really, you know, gather, right? It's called gather. It's like gather around not just this movie, but this idea and it's groups and gatherings like that, you know, one by one, even if they're small, that really are going to be the thing that can potentially change, you know, the conversation, the dialogue, and hopefully,

you know, get these people that deserve to be on, you know, covered by the mainstream media to get covered, you know, so let's shift that discussion. Yeah, and get involved in, you know, host screenings and become part of the team. Yeah. And you can do that at consume the movie.com. And also if you follow our social media, which is at consume movie on Twitter and Instagram, we're constantly posting about what's going on and that kind of thing. Yeah. It's cool. So you guys premiered it at LA at the LA film festival in June. And what was that experience like? It was great. We had some of the cast there. So you have Anthony Edwards.

Let's talk about who's in this movie. We've got an amazing cast. We've got Danny Glover from Lethal Weapon. We've got Anthony Edwards from Top Gun. We've got Victor Garber from Argo. Kunal Nayyar from Big Bang Theory for all those Big Bang Theory fans out there which I know there are millions. We have Griffin Dunn from After Hours.

One of my favorite movies of all time. He's amazing. We have the amazing Beth Grant, who is currently on the Mindy Project and has been in lots of amazing... There's a fun fact. She's been in five Academy Award best pictures. Really?

Yeah, and she's so transformative. She's one of those people you're like, I know her. Yeah, you might not know her by name, but she's such an amazing character actor that in every movie she's playing someone so drastically different that she's hard to recognize. And we also have the beautiful to look at, Taylor Kinney, and also excellent actor

who is on the TV show Chicago Fire. But most importantly, we have Zoe Lister-Jones, my wife, my writing partner, my producing partner, my partner in all things. How is that working together? She anch when it's so when it's super intense and you're directing her and you know and you guys are kind of collaborative partners it's not just director actor yeah i think that we work the best when we're actually on set and directing is always like a piece of cake you know we're very and we almost,

there's moments where we almost don't even need to like say it out loud. It's like mind bullets, like being like telepathically sent from mind to mind. And she's, I like look at her a certain way and she just like knows what I mean. But I think we struggle more with, because we're both very type A, strong-minded have all our own ideas debating how it's written and like what idea should we push more here there that's always

difficult you know as we're both writers on it and as artists i think it's so subjective and there's so many gray areas there with how to shape it in what tonally, you know, cinematically, uh, visually. And it's such a personal experience that it's easy to, to, you know, have hurt feelings or to feel attacked or any of those, the writing process. I mean, and yeah, I think, I think, um, we're both like warriors when it comes to being on set. It's really like a war. And, and, um, and so I think, and also this was our third

narrative feature to doing it together. So I think, you know, we also have a sort of shorthand that allows it to be. But it's really confusing at times. Like, we'll like be arguing about an idea in a script,

but we're really arguing over why to do the dishes. You know, like it's, we're really arguing over why I didn't do the dishes. Like, you know, like it's, you can't determine where the line is. And we've had to, over the years, like set a lot of boundaries in terms of where the professional ends and where the personal begins and vice versa. Like, how does that work? I mean, it's not like you could go home and then like, okay, we're not talking about the movie that we're in the middle of making.

I know. does that work i mean it's not like you could go home and then like okay we're not talking about the movie that we're in the middle of making i know well we try to not we we really have been vigilant about not bringing work into our bedroom before sleep like we don't email or go on devices in the bedroom anymore and we don't talk and we don't talk about work we don't speak at all we don't look at each other no we don't we don't talk about the movie and business like in the hour before bed. We try not to. I mean, we still struggle. And especially making independent films, you know,

it's like the workload is so beyond. Yeah, you're doing everything. Like there's moments when we're like, we say that and then I look over and Zoe's like furiously scribbling down notes and I'm like doing the same thing and we're like, wait, we weren't supposed to work. You know, or like one of us will be like, are you like doing research right now

about GMOs for Rich Rolls podcast? And then the next person will be like, yeah, are you? And then we'll have to talk about it, but we'll have each other's permission, so then we get to break a rule. But it is, I mean, it's confusing. It's really confusing.

And we work from home too. It's like we can't afford to have an office. So it's like that whole idea of space, like personal professional has completely blended together. So like, I'm constantly like moving around the house into different office areas to just feel like I'm like, you know, I have some semblance of, you know, sanity. Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. I get it. I mean, you know, I have an office now, of you know sanity yeah right right yeah i get it i mean you know i have an office now but you know it's similar that yeah you guys are intertwining things that we work on together so very cool well what uh what's next and what else is going on we should talk about life and peace yeah so he's starring in a major broadcast television program right now yep um

it's called life and pieces on cps so funny i think i emailed you or texted you i was like you're everywhere on the side of all these buses so that's where i look i know well yeah cvs has been amazing in terms of promoting the film and how much they've supported in the tv show i meant the tv show um see this is where see how it all blends together cvs is not promoting consumed um no but yeah it's like such an amazing cast and we're having such a blast and we just got a full season pickup. Oh, wow, great.

Which has been, yeah, thanks. So yeah, it's a dream job. I love going and just getting to act and not having to worry about producing or writing. That's so nice. It's super nice. Doing these other jobs. I'm like, why am I doing what I'm doing

I want to just act like Zoe and go have fun on a TV show but you only get there when you're as talented and funny as her and your co-star also a filmmaker Colin Hanks just made his documentary about Tower Records right? I haven't seen it yet but I've heard good things it's an amazing documentary

it has 100% positive reviews on Rotten Tomatoes, which is like unheard of. And it's really an amazing piece of filmmaking. And what else are you working on, Daryl? What are you working on? I'm writing a pilot for Amazon right now, which is cool. And so we'll see if that gets picked up to be able to shoot the pilot.

There's so many steps along the way. So that's exciting. And is that one of those be able to shoot the pilot there's so many steps along the way uh so that's exciting and is that one of those things where they they do the pilot and then they sort of crowdsource the reaction to see whether they go forward i don't know if amazon's still crowdsourcing the the pilots in the way that they were in the beginning and basically like bosch and hand of god i think yeah yeah yeah is mozart in the jungle like that also which you directed an episode or two yeah mozart in the jungle i think yeah you know to be honest i can't speak on it officially if if the if if they were doing that at that time but i know yeah well at some point amazon was basically green lighting their pilots based on consumer feedback and whatever

was getting voted the highest i'm not sure if they're still doing that i think it still is happening you do yeah i mean maybe but um so yeah, I think to get to that step that you have to first, they have to love the pilot that you wrote. So I'm just, I'm, I'm writing now. And if that happens and then we shoot it, uh, then it gets to be put in front of the public. First things first. Exactly. Can you talk about what it's about or? Yeah, I can say in a kind of just limited sense that it is about a woman who is literally and figuratively disappearing. So it's meant to be an exploration as we are aging and you feel the ways in which people judge you differently. And kind of a commentary on ageism in this country or just in general. Um, and you know, how, as you get older, uh, you know, the way you feel, you know, people value you and, uh, and look at you as, as, as different.

Yeah. Yeah. So stay tuned on that. We'll see. We'll see what goes on. All right. But, uh, until then, everything is, we're consumed by consumers. It's all, all consuming and as should everybody listening. So, uh, that's a good place to put a pin in it. I think, you know, we'll have you guys back on and we can talk about the relationship. Yes, absolutely. For sure. Thank you so much. Cool. Thanks, man. Yeah, that was really great. You guys are delightful. You guys are delightful. We have like a couple crush on you guys.

No, we have a couple crush on you guys. You guys. Cool. So go to ConsumeTheMovie.com and either attend a screening or set up your own. And if you're digging on these guys, they're easy to find on the interwebs, right? Yes.

At Zoe Lister-Jones on Instagram. Is it the same on Twitter? And at Daryl Ween with one R. D-A-R-Y-L-W-E-I-N. In both places as well. And you're on Facebook and anywhere else you should want to direct people other than to watch life in pieces as well. We don't do Snapchat or, uh,

or any of that stuff. But, I started beaming because of you for a moment. I think I just, I just watch your beams basically. I haven't done it. I've been, I've been slacking off.

Although I did go as Casey Neistat for Halloween. You did? That's amazing. You got some beat up Ray-Bans. Yeah, I did. I made my own with the, with the, that's amazing you got some beat-up ray-bans yeah i did i made my own with the with the that's amazing a la casey right um yeah i gotta get back on the anyway all right you guys well please come back and talk to us some more yeah and and uh actually

i'm gonna we were just you guys were in paris just some days before we arrived and uh and you recommended that we check out this amazing restaurant. I just want to give a shout out to it's Miznon, right? Miznon. M I Z N O N. In the Marais. In the Marais.

So it's fantastic. So check it out if you're there for, um, some whole plant foods and also they have other stuff, but they had a lot of that. So I'm trying to, tonight I'm going to recreate a couple things from Misenal.

But anyway, we're very excited. Our mouths are watering. Awesome. All right. All right, everybody. Thanks so much for having us.

Bye. Peace. Plants. Namaste. All right, you guys, we did it. I found that conversation

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