The Rich Roll Podcast - Gwen Jorgensen’s Champion Mindset: Big Dreams, Taking Risks & Following Your Heart

Episode Date: August 22, 2019

How does a relatively conservative, risk averse person evolve into an unbreakable champion? Someone confident enough to put everything on the line for an audacious dream? This is the story of Gwen Jorgensen — an accountant turned ‘Queen of Triathlon' who walked away from swim-bike-run at the peak of her powers to ply her skills in an entirely new discipline: the marathon. Gwen’s athletic career began as a swimmer, competing at the University of Wisconsin as a walk on before making the switch to track & field, maturing into an NCAA standout and Big 10 Champion. But the end of college marked the end of her athletic ambitions. Declining a professional running career, she opted for civilian life, joining Ernst & Young as a CPA. Eventually, USA Triathlon lured Gwen back to athletics. Within two years, Gwen made her first Olympic team and matured into the sport's dominant force, accumulating 2 Triathlon World Champion titles and 17 ITU World Triathlon Series wins, culminating in gold at the 2016 Games in Rio. After a year off racing to give birth to her son Stanley, Gwen announced her retirement from triathlon, along with a brazen new goal: to win marathon gold in Tokyo. It's a feat no American woman has accomplished since Joan Benoit Samuelson broke the tape at the inaugural women's marathon at the 1984 Los Angeles Olympiad. A few weeks ago I was invited by Jaybird Sport to join a group of adventure-seeking endurance junkies in Montana's Glacier National Park. The official occasion was to celebrate the launch of Jaybird's new Vista wireless earbuds (which I'm loving by the way). The unofficial occasion was to retreat and connect — old-school, analog campfire style — with like-minded, high vibration humans. It's a group that included Gwen and husband Patrick Lemieux, as well as a few former podcast guests like Knox Robinson (RRP #394), Timothy Olson (RRP #78), and Sanjay Rawal (RRP #389). This podcast is a product of that uniquely beautiful experience — a great conversation and audience Q&A conducted outdoors with my fellow Jaybird retreat attendees. It's about Gwen's career. Her philosophy on training and racing. Overcoming injury. And the why behind her decision to pursue the marathon. It's about how her ambitious dream was received by the running community, and what she has learned training alongside legends like Shalane Flanagan at the Bowerman Track Club. It's about her ‘Champion Only' mindset. The nature of her motivation. The importance of agency — the freedom to forge her own unique path. And why this power is so crucial to Gwen's success and happiness. Finally, we explore how she balances her career as a full-time professional athlete against marriage, family and motherhood — and the crucial role Gwen's husband Patrick (who makes a cameo appearance) plays in her success equation. But most of all, this is an exploration of the tension between risk and certainty. The rare courage required to walk away from success. Enjoy! Rich

If I coached myself, I would always think like more is better, more is better. And I think that's a bad mentality to get into. I think it's really good to see the bigger picture, to see that you need recovery days. You know, I think we all think, oh, I can be better every single day. And I think we've been taught that a little bit, that improvement happens on a daily basis. And it doesn't, you know, you actually improve with rest. And for me, I'm not looking at the day-to-day improvement, but the week-to-week and then month-to-month.

And that's the key, I think, to me being 100% and healthy, which is what I need to perform at the highest level. Not everyone's going to always support you 100%. And as long as you are doing you and you know that you're becoming a better person, then that's what's important. That's Gwen Jorgensen. And this is The Rich Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey, everybody. How are you guys doing? What's happening? Welcome to the show, to the podcast, to my podcast. Today, my guest is 2016 triathlon Olympic gold medalist turned Olympic marathon hopeful, Gwen Jorgensen.

is this relationship, this tricky, complicated relationship that she has with risk, or perhaps a better way to put it is this tension that exists inside of her between risk and certainty. And it's a career theme that I think reveals itself over the course of our conversation, a conversation that begins talking about Gwen's career as a swimmer, where she competed at the University of Wisconsin as a walk-on, before making the switch to track and field and maturing into an NCAA standout and a Big Ten champion. But when Gwen's college career ended, so did her athletic ambitions, it would seem. She declines an opportunity to pursue a professional running career and instead joins Ernst & Young as a young CPA. So this is the certainty aspect of her personality and character. athletic career had USA Triathlon not ended up relentlessly pursuing her to get into this sport,

ultimately cajoling her into giving it a try. And that was a try that less than two years later landed Gwen on the 2012 Olympic team, followed by dominating the sport for years and culminating in a gold medal in Rio. And then at the peak of her triathlon career with a cadre of lucrative sponsors and opportunities on the horizon, Gwen does the unthinkable. She decides to walk away from the sport altogether. So here's the risk part of her personality. of her personality. And she does this on the very bold proclamation that her next goal would be quite an audacious one. It would be Olympic victory, not in swim, bike, run, but in the marathon. Now, not only was this a brand new discipline for Gwen. But consider this, no American woman has won the Olympic marathon since Joan Benoit did it in 1984, the first year that the women's marathon was introduced to the Olympics. So basically what we have here is the evolution of a conservative accountant into this

killer, this risk-taking, unbreakable champion with the confidence to risk everything to follow her heart. And I think that's a very rare and amazing thing. I've got a few more things I want to say about Gwen before we launch into it. But first, can I share an email with you guys? Is that okay? Can I do that? I think I'm going to do that. It's a powerful one from a listener. Her name is Amy and she writes, hey Rich, I started listening to your podcast about 12 to 18 months ago after my husband discovered your website and book. We had been eating a plant-based but not entirely vegan lifestyle for five or six years at that point, somewhat inspired by our move to Oregon and the sheer bounty of fresh fruits and vegetables that made it so easy. As a physician's assistant, I had heard about How Not to Die, which is a book by Dr.

Michael Greger from one of the physicians that I work with at Kaiser Permanente and was getting more and more on board with it. But my husband was somewhat weighed down by the scientific nature of that book, which is exactly what I loved. He found someone speaking his language in your books and podcasts. I decided to check you out given his excitement and was hooked by your podcasts. They always leave me with a sparklet and a desire to do good either for myself, my family, my community, or my planet. I began to think about how to help my older brother.

My brother had struggled with alcoholism and then due to the damage done to his pancreas, developed diabetes several years ago. He lived on the East Coast. And while we weren't in close communication, I felt if I just kept shining my light of seeing how healthy and happy I was, he would be inspired to start fully embracing a healthier lifestyle.

We had started having some conversations, really just comments that made me think he might be starting to listen to some of these ideas. And then last September, he died of a fentanyl overdose. No one in our family even knew he was using heroin. And it was at this point that your podcast became part of my grief journey. I found such insight in the redemption stories you often tell through your guests.

I've come to understand my brother's struggle with addiction more, although I admit I may never understand it completely. While I don't consider myself to have any issues with alcohol, it has been a habitual part of my life as that was the environment I was raised in. How can you celebrate a birthday or holiday without it? Well, now I have started my one-year no-beer journey just for the sake of being more to my husband, kids, patients, and community. I left my position at Kaiser Permanente two years ago and am now at a private gastroenterology clinic and deal daily with alcoholics with cirrhosis and drug addicts with hepatitis C. I really feel your podcast has helped

me to give them grace and compassion and help to resolve some of my judgment. So thank you. I look forward to more episodes. I often listen to them during long runs and it is hard to run and cry simultaneously, but I look forward to it. I know it is helping me to continue on this journey of grief and understanding. So thank you, Amy, for being open and honest and vulnerable. Sorry about your brother. I can't imagine the amount of pain and grief that you had to endure as a result of that. And that is addiction in a nutshell, unfortunately. It is cunning, baffling, and powerful. And I'm just grateful that I've been able to provide a little bit of comfort and benefit

as you undergo this and just appreciate you listening and sharing your experience with us today. So thank you. And again, just a reminder of the why behind what I do. It really is all about that. So thank you. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life.

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go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. Okay, Gwen Jorgensen. Again, this took place live and outdoors before a small group in Montana a few weeks ago. And it was great. We talked about a number of things.

We talked about Gwen's recent heel surgery, her recovery, and it was great. We talked about a number of things. We talked about Gwen's recent heel surgery, her recovery, and the impact that this has had on her training. The biggest differences she's experiencing between swim, bike, run, triathlon, in other words, versus marathon training, why she selected the marathon as her next goal, the audaciousness of this goal that she set to win the Olympic gold medal, and what happened, like how she was received by the running community after making this announcement. Her champion-only mindset, we spend a lot of time on that, where it comes from, whether her motivation is interior or exterior, how she navigates obstacles. We talk about balancing training with her

dynamic family life. Her husband, Patrick Lemieux, who's great. He makes a cameo on the podcast, plus parenting their son, Stanley. We talk about why agency is so important in her decision-making and this risk certainty calculus that she apparently seems to constantly be running. I really enjoyed this whole experience and this conversation, which includes a fair amount of audience Q&A, and I think you will too. So without further ado, this is me and Gwen Jorgensen. It's funny, Gwen, like the other day in the van, we were talking and I told you that I generally

don't like to interact too much with a podcast guest before having the conversation. So we're not all like talked out. And Gwen says, don't worry, like I'll ignore you. But then I don't like that either. Like that doesn't, that feels awkward and strange. So we chatted a little bit, but there's plenty to talk about. And I'm just super excited to be able to talk with you today and for you to share your story. Yeah, me too. You definitely have done your research. Just that little conversation we did have in the van. And I'm excited to dive into hopefully talking about some stuff.

And maybe I can even teach you something, which is doubtful. I'm sure you have plenty to teach me. Well, why don't we start with where you're at right now? I mean, we're at something like 210 days, I think, around that area before Olympic trials. Maybe walk us through kind of what you've been weathering and kind of where you're at at the moment in terms of your preparation.

Yeah, I think, I don't know where to start. I won gold in Rio in triathlon. And after that, I said, I want to switch sports. And to make it even more difficult, not only switch sports, I had my first child. So, you know, I had a really big uphill battle. And I joined the Bowerman Track Club, which has just been an amazing experience. And I've been learning so much surrounding myself with the best athletes. And just recently, about eight weeks ago, I had surgery. So a setback for sure. And for me, I'm focusing on just trying to get healthy.

And in triathlon, everyone told me the key to success is staying healthy. And I don't think I truly really took that to heart until I got injured just this past couple of years. And injury is a really difficult thing to go through. Right. So explain this Haglund's deformity situation. Has an ugly name, doesn't it? So I had a bone overgrowth on my heel, and that bone overgrowth was rubbing against the Achilles tendon every time I took a step. And it was just cutting away at that Achilles tendon and super painful. The bursas got annoyed, and that was actually the most painful part for me was the bursa. They swell, and then they just cause excruciating pain. They swell, and then they just cause excruciating pain.

And, you know, like if somebody touched my Achilles, it was gut-wrenching on the floor, screaming, just super painful. And this is like common in track and field, right? A lot of people have this. I think in running, you know, injuries are always common. But the Haglund's deformity, a lot of people actually have it, and it doesn't cause everyone problems, but it's very, very common, yeah. It's also called the pump bump from wearing high heels, but I never wear high heels. So were you like cutting out the back of your shoes, or how were you dealing with it before the surgery? Yep, I did a ton of things shoe-related. Nike created shoes without heel cups for me. Um, so there wasn't anything

back there really rubbing against the heel. They made them custom. And then I also, you know, was doing PT, changing my gait, um, doing a lot of PT and, um, things to keep my peroneals and soleus loose. Cause that really helps, uh, just keeping the, everything more mobile. So I feel like I tried to do everything I could. I don't think it's good to have surgery. I'm really against it. And I waited quite a long time to have surgery and I'm happy I did that. Well, Patrick just told me the interesting

kind of backstory behind that. I mean, it sounds like the traditional route, at least as far as you guys were aware, was to literally slice the Achilles and kind of go in from the behind to deal with it. And that's like no small thing. I'm sure a lot of people don't come back from something like that. And it was almost like out of the blue that you found out that there was this other doctor who was doing things a different way. Yeah, exactly. Most people that have this surgery, they cut the tendon. And I think the return rate, it's like 50% or something,

if you can return to that elite level running. And you shouldn't fact check me on that. I don't actually know. But it's really hard to come back from. And we knew personally a handful of people who had that surgery and weren't able to come back to sport. So to us, it was a non-starter. We can't do that because we know that it could end my career before I felt like I even could start it. So I had a teammate who said, oh, I had Hagelin's deformity. This surgeon, he goes in microscopically on the sides, doesn't touch the tendon, just shaves down the bone, takes care of the bursas. And yeah, it was eye-opening. Right, he's like, oh, just call this guy,

like problem solved, right? And that seems to have worked. So you're like nine weeks, eight weeks, nine weeks out from that? Yep. And so how's the rehab and like, where are you at with, you know, getting back on, you know, to being 100%?

Yeah, I think I'm taking it in a really, I think it's a good approach. And the fact that I'm working with my PT and other people, and we always want to have my, my bad leg, my right leg at 85% of my left leg. And we tested out doing different things. And so I'm not like, I'm going to increase 5% every week or anything like that. So it's hard to tell like when I'll be at a hundred percent, but for me, you know, for like almost two years, I remember I was in, I think it was Mammoth Lakes and with the Bowerman track club and there was a PT there and he was working on some stuff. And he's like, well, just get off the table and show me what it looks like to hop on one foot. And we all kind of like live together, our teammates when we're at altitude. And so all my

teammates were kind of sitting there having dinner, watching me and hopped on my left foot just fine. And I tried to hop on my right and I couldn't. And one of my teammates, Shelby Houlihan, just burst out laughing at me. She's like, you can't hop on a foot. Like every time you take a step when you're running, like, you know, it's like basically hopping over and over again. And I just, I couldn't do it. And so, you know, in my rehab right now, I'm able to hop on one foot and we're really getting back to those basics and just starting from the ground up. Yeah.

One of the things that you said in one of your YouTube videos, and I think it's super wise, is you have this sense that recovery is a linear process. Like every week is gonna be a little bit better. And then finally you're gonna get to this 100% place. And it just doesn't work that way. Like some days are good, some weeks are good,

but it's kind of one step forward, two steps back at times. And you just have to be patient and you have to have that like mind-body connection to know what's right for you so that you're careful and you don't overdo it. Exactly, I think we all think, oh, I can do, be better every single day. And I think we've been taught that a little bit, that improvement happens on a daily basis and it

doesn't. And you actually improve with rest. And for me, I'm not looking at the day-to-day improvement, but the week-to-week and then month-to-month. And that's the key, I think, to me being 100% and healthy, which is what I need to perform at the highest level. Yeah. All right. So Olympic trials, 210 days or whatever. What are you feeling? Are you feeling confident? You're excited? Are you going to race before this? What's happening? Yeah. They had come out a couple months ago with a new format for qualifying and track and field had and the trials had, the marathon had a new time standard where you needed to go to 29. Basically, that was like the Olympic standard and I haven't gone that. So in my head, it was okay, I'm going to need to run that and then run the trials. And that would be a really.

You need to run that in order to the trials. And that would be a really... You need to run that in order to get into the trials? No. Is it like swimming where there's a time standard? Yeah. So there's a time standard to get into the trials, but then there was this other time standard where it was going to be not just the top three across the line at the trials. It was going to be, you had to be the top three with this standard. I see. But they just, like a week ago, announced that they're kind of scrapping that. Not scrapping it, but another way to get the time is just place top five at a gold event. And they made the trials a gold event.

So basically, I feel really lucky that I don't have to rush into another marathon before the trials. You know, you ask, like, am I feeling ready? Definitely not. I think I've set some really lofty goals. And I said, I want to win gold in the marathon. And I think that can put a lot of people off. And I totally get that. I get where people are coming from when that kind of, it seems a little bold and it can put people off. But for me, you know, I think I have a long way to go. I haven't done anything to prove that I can do that yet, but in my heart, like I know what I do on a daily basis and I know that I haven't come anywhere near my potential in running. So the confidence is still there. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm a pretty confident person, I'd say. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean,

clearly there's a couple of interesting things about that. I mean, you come off of this gold medal in triathlon and I think the expectation was you would stay in triathlon. You were so dominant in the sport or perhaps morph into a longer distance triathlete like a lot of people do. But instead you make this kind of unpredictable left turn where you say, not only am I gonna walk away from triathlon and go into running, I'm gonna do marathon running. And I'm not just gonna do marathon running, like I'm gonna win the Olympic gold medal in the marathon,

which is a very bold statement for somebody who kind of historically and kind of characteristically seem like a pretty conservative person. Like you didn't even quit your accounting job until you made the Olympic team. Like that's a very conservative streak that you have in you. So I'm trying to reconcile like that aspect of your personality with this very brash, bold,

like never go quiet, you know, aspect to who you are. I mean, is that an evolution or are these just, is that some kind of duality that lives inside of you? I'd say it's a little bit of both. I definitely evolved into who I am through my success in travel and a big part through my husband, Patrick. You know, I've always been very introverted and he's someone who's shown me the positives of being a little more extroverted and putting my goals out there. And yeah, you know, I. But there's putting your goals out there.

And then there's like, I'm going to do this thing that like no American woman has done since like. The first marathon. Yeah, the first marathon in the Olympics. Yeah. I mean, I think it's good, though. There must have been some people who didn't like that. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of people that didn't. And I appreciate that., I think it's good though. There must have been some people who didn't like that. Yeah. I mean, there was a lot of people that didn't.

And I appreciate that and I understand it. And I think for me, it holds me accountable. And it also holds my team around me, my husband, my coach, the thousands of people basically that go into my team. They know what I want to do. And yeah, I think it's exciting too. And I think it's why you think about every athlete who goes to the Olympic trials, even if they don't say they want to qualify for the Olympics, I'm sure that's their goal. And then every athlete that goes to the Olympics, I really believe that everyone there wants to win. Um, and they're

just not saying it. Right. It's like, it doesn't feel like it's polite conversation to like actually be bold enough to say that out loud. And I think part of it has evolved as well. Just, you know, being, I'm, when I first started triathlon, I was very, very timid in things. And I had trouble actually on the swim because people would touch me and I'd say, oh, I don't want to be touched. Like if you want to go, okay, go ahead. I'll let you just like swim by me. Your turn. Yep. And, you know, I worked with psychologists and learned like, you know what, it's okay. It's even though I'm female, I can be assertive and I can just kind of be myself and know, you know, I am here and prove that I belong there. Yeah. Well, let's take it back a little bit. Like you start as a swimmer and you are like the prototypical age group. Like you're all, like I was that kid too.

So I really relate to that. Like just being like, it's all about time standards and making nationals and all of that. And you have your goal times on your bulletin board or on your ceiling or whatever it is. I did have it on the ceiling, yeah. Yeah. Those glow-up stars that my son Stanley will probably have someday. And there's an obsessiveness to that kind of lifestyle, right? That's unusual for a young person, I think. And you had this Olympic dream for swimming, and it took you a while to kind of realize like, hey, that's probably not going to happen

as a walk-on at UW, right? Yeah.'s probably not going to happen as a walk on at UW. Yeah, I mean, I never made like a junior national team. Like it was very apparent that I wasn't anywhere near that level. And we were talking about this the other day, but kind of sprinkled like there's this light dusting across your story of like little incidents that happen along the way where you show this prowess as a runner, but you're turning a blind eye to it because you're so focused on swimming that you just can't hear anything else. Yeah. You know, I remember, you know, I feel very fortunate. My parents put me through college. They paid for my college and I walked on a D1 team at Wisconsin and I was getting letters from schools to run and you know some of them would be like these big packets and my parents would be like what if there's like a scholarship

offer in there I'm like I don't care I'm not opening it I don't want to see it it's going in the garbage like I don't want to do that and I think for me it was all about I want to do what what makes me happy and swimming is what made me happy it's weird because it well you wouldn't even go in the lake yesterday. So it's definitely not the case anymore. Yeah, it's changed a lot. Growing up, swimming was... It's this beautiful thing where it's just refreshing. It's rejuvenating. But for some reason, I put so much time, so much effort into it, and I really learned through Sumeen how to deal with failure and how you can still— I would go in in college before all my teammates, stay in after, get videotaped and analyze my stroke. I was doing everything I could to match their level, and I just was never able to get there.

Right, it wasn't going to happen. But there's something interesting about the bullheadedness, like the fact that you were so determined, like it's this great strength about your personality that I think is part and parcel of what makes you successful, but also this impediment, like this literally an Achilles heel, right?

That's preventing you from seeing this reality right in front of you that you would be a much more successful athlete if you just paid a little bit more broader attention to your talents. Yeah. You know, I'm definitely, I always say I'm really stubborn and I think that's a great quality for me and it's made me very successful, but it can also have a downside, I guess. But, you know, I look back and if I would have done running in college right away, I eventually started running my junior year. But if I would have done it my freshman year, I wouldn't have been happy. I don't think I would have been successful. I wouldn't have learned how to deal with failure. Like, like I did.

Right. So it's actually the swim coach at Wisconsin that reached out to the track coach. This guy's going to make it happen for you almost. And then there's an interesting kind of irony in that the, well, the men's track coach at Wisconsin ultimately ends up becoming the Bowerman coach, who's your coach today. A lot of connections. There's like this weird serendipitous, like, this is all like written in the stars. Yeah, it is very interesting. And, you know, my swim coach, both of my swim coaches, Eric Hansen and Jeff Hansen, unrelated Hansens, but they encouraged me to try out for that track team. And I thought, you know, for me, I really held them. I respected them so much. And I thought, you know what, if they believe this is a good decision, like maybe it is.

And it's nice to have that in life, having those people who you can really trust. Right. So you start running track and field. How long before you realize like, oh, this is just going to be my new thing? Do you get success immediately? I did have success immediately. So I joined, like there's cross country and then there's indoor track and outdoor track. And I joined after outdoor track had already started. It was like a month or two in or month in outdoor track and I joined the team. And I had immediate success, almost made NCAAs. And even though that summer, even though I had so much success over the summer, I really debated debated do I want to swim or do I want to run and I still showed up to swimming practices every day

you're killing yourself and you're not anywhere close to making NCAA standards in swimming and you're like literally almost immediately make it in running and you're still like I don't know if I want to do this I think swimming was just such a big part of my life

it just was a big decision to make and I think swimming was just such a big part of my life. And yeah, it just was a big decision to make. And I think I've never been one to do something because somebody tells me to. And I felt like everyone was telling me to run. And I kind of was stubborn in the fact that I didn't want to do something just because other people wanted me to. And so I really struggled and had a hard time realizing, like, is this something I actually want to do? And it was. But it just took me a while to figure that out. So you then go on to this celebrated career.

Like, what, did you win Big Tens? You had, like, a lot of accolades as a track and field athlete. But when that chapter was over, like, that was it, right? You were just going to, like, putting the athlete, Gwen Gwen in the rearview mirror and going on into the world. I wanted to run on the professional level out of college. And I remember talking to my college coach and he was kind of like, I don't know if you're good enough. You know, he actually suggested I do triathlon. And I was like, that doesn't interest me.

And so, yeah, I mean, for me, it was all about supporting myself. I wanted to be independent. And I looked at my available options and it was like, oh, you could be paid 10 grand to run professionally, but I can't live on my own off of 10 grand. So for me, it was like, okay, if I can't do that, I'm going to do accounting and I'm just going to start that life. Yeah. So where does that come from? Like this need, this compulsion to like be self-sufficient and self-supporting? Because I think a lot of people, if given the opportunity to explore their potential as a professional athlete would be like, I'm doing that. Like if I have to be a waiter or get some odd jobs or whatever to make it work,

I'm in. And you're like, I don't want that life. Yeah. I don't know. I don't think I know the answer to that question. I think it's mostly the way my parents raised me. But, you know, I did have I could have pursued sport in running even. I remember my parents having a couple conversations with me saying, you can live at home. We'll help. We'll help you out if you want to keep running. And you can only do athletic careers once. You know, do it when you're age 50. You can't go back and say. Ernst & Young is not going out of business anytime soon. Yeah. So I definitely had that opportunity, but I don't know where that stubbornness of I need... I think I've always just been super stubborn, super independent, and kind of I want to do my own thing.

And I don't want to, I just don't want to rely on others. It has to be your idea, too. Yes. Oh, yeah. Because what's confusing is you're weighing, like, should I quit swimming and do track and field? Like, I love swimming, but I'm good at this. And then when presented with the opportunity of, like, hey, you might be a good triathlete. Like, hey, let's just look at this on paper. You're like, no.

Like, that would, to me, that seems to solve that dilemma for you where you don't have to pick between these two things. And you get to be awesome because you're good at both of them. Yeah. And you're like, I don't want that. Yeah, you know, my college running coach, Jim, he always tells the story of me. He said something about like, you know, you should consider doing triathlon. And I just said, if you ever say that again, I'm quitting the track team. And I was just like, don't try to convince me.

Like, what is that? Like, that's what I'm trying to like put my thumb on? Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I think everyone's just born differently. And I just, in me, I was born with this stubbornness of wanting. I think it has to be your idea. Like, if you come up with the idea of being a triathlete, maybe. Right, it would have been a, but I didn't, like, when they, USA Triathlon came to me and they said, we think you'd be good.

And after months of calling me every week, I finally gave in a little bit. But, you know, when they did talk to me, I didn't even know triathlon was an Olympic sport. So they were calling me and it was like a month in of talking to them. And I was like, oh wait, you mean it's not the Ironman? You mean I don't have to be on a TT bike? What is this? So yeah. It wasn't just them. It was Barb Lindquist calling you, right? Yeah, an Olympian. An Olympian. And she's telling you, listen, on paper, you're better than me. And you're like, no, Ernst & Young.

Yeah. I think if you go from the high school level to the college level in a sport, you realize how big of a jump it is. And then you go from the college level to a pro level, like it's an even bigger jump. And for me, I was like, do I have what it takes to make this jump into a professional field in a sport I've never done? Like I didn't believe what she was telling me. Yeah. And here again is this arc

because you had had rapid success when you fully embraced running right and now you're bold enough to say like I'm going to win the Olympic gold medal in marathoning but you weren't quite ready to make that leap and be that bold in that moment yeah I mean I definitely I think but bold enough to start training a little bit yeah Barb eventually presented it as well you know just do it on the side like aren't you working out still and I was like yeah I am she's just kind of yeah started it that way and um you know my first triathlon I got my pro card and in that year maybe it was the following year I qualified for the Olympics and it was just let's sit on that for a moment like you're so casual about that but like

you literally just walked into the sport and like within I think it was like 17 months later you were on the Olympic team. Yeah. But it's, you know, and looking back, that was actually a really hard time in my athletic career for me. I felt guilty for that success. Because a lot of people had been paying their dues. Right. Because a lot of people had been paying their dues and working. Right, you know, and I remembered what it was like as a swimmer and seeing all these other people being successful when I felt like I was doing everything, if not more.

And I wasn't seeing any success. But, you know, then I look back and I think, okay, I've carried over all those tools I've learned of doing the little things, being prepared. And I always got, you know, made fun of or looked at a little bit differently because in triathlon, I was always super prepared. And, you know, I'd bring, I think to the Olympics, brought four bikes, looking at my husband and make sure that's the correct number. You know, it's like, but why would you ever need four bikes? You know, but it was just we always wanted to be overprepared and doing those little things that set you up for success. Right. So, first Olympiad, 2012, you flat out. But by that point, when you made the first Olympic team, then you took a leave of absence from Ernst & Young, right? Like, now maybe I could take this seriously. And then fast forward to, then you just dominate the sport in the interim.

And then in 2016, you win the Olympic gold medal. And I asked you this in the van the other day, as somebody who grew up as a swimmer and had this Olympic dream as a swimmer, do you think it would have meant more to you had you won an Olympic gold medal as a swimmer than as a triathlete? And I think your response is super interesting.

I don't remember what it was, but it was, I mean, 100%. Like it would have meant way more to me as a swimmer. You know, I grew up glued to the TV when the Olympics, the summer Olympics were on. And all I wanted to watch was all the swimming events. Like that was to me like the pinnacle and, you know, something that I just was so immersed in. Yeah. Triathlon,

I didn't even know existed. Yeah. Well, it was, it's an, it's this, again, it goes back to, this was somebody else's idea. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And, and like almost like your success without, you know, being fully prepared, but also like keeping a distance from it, I think. Yep. Yep. And now I see a difference with marathoning because you're really because you really want to own that completely for yourself. So what is the difference in those relationships? Between triathlon and running. And what you're doing now, yeah. Yeah, I think, you know, triathlon chose me.

And, you know, it's something that I think success can be fun, right? It can be enjoyable. But for me, I just really have this, I never really, really, really wanted to do triathlon. I wanted to do running and I wanted to do swimming first and then once in college. Reluctant, the reluctant runner. Now I'm all in, but it's, you know, for running, I remember making the decision. And it wasn't something that was overnight. I had been thinking about it for years. Two or three years before 2016, I had called Jerry, my current running coach, and said, what do you think of this crazy idea if after 2016, I wanted to start running? Because I had been improving on my runs. I mean, I'd done some

open 10Ks throughout my triathlon career and I just kept getting faster. And I thought, oh, I think I could maybe make it. And I talked to some other people and had them like analyze, you know, with my VO2 max, like, what do we think we can do? And yeah, I really believed I could be successful in running. Right. So you brought an analytical approach to this decision. It wasn't just like you woke up one day and pie in the sky. No, I mean, I think, you know, I, it was very analytical, but it was also very passion driven. Triathlon just wasn't, to keep doing triathlon, it didn't seem exciting to me. You know, I did everything I could to reach my goal. And it's not exciting for me to wake up and try to do just the same thing.

Like me, I'm really motivated by things that are a challenge. And running was going to be a challenge, but I also believed I could do it. And again, you know, you keep coming, you're convincing me now that I, everything just needs to be a challenge, but I also believed I could do it. And again, you keep coming, you're convincing me now that everything just needs to be my decision. I remember when I made this decision and I talked to my husband and he'd probably deny this now because he's like the number one supporter of, yes, I think you can do this in running. But he was very cautious and he was like, are you sure you want to do this? This is our livelihood. You're really good at this. Why do you you wanna switch? He was very hesitant.

Yeah. It's almost like it either has to be your decision or there has to be this like inception process where you believe that it's your decision. But I think to kind of make it like readily apparent for everyone who's listening, like when you won the Olympic gold medal, like you were, you know, this massive name in the sport

and the sponsorship dollars were very real. And, you know, like you were, you know, this massive name in the sport and the sponsorship dollars were very real. And, you know, you could have, you know, rode this out for quite some time and expanded on it to make a very good living doing something that you're extremely good at and having the world applaud you for it. So, again, it goes back to this like, okay, now you're becoming this risk taker because that is a gamble. I'm going to go into this entirely new sport with this very bold claim. No one's ever done this. I mean, really the only semi example of anybody doing anything similar to this

would be like Sheila Taormina, right? Who did three sports. She did swimming, triathlon and modern pentathlon. Which we could talk about modern pentathlon. I mean, that's next. You'd have to convince me that it's my decision to do it. Yeah, right, yeah. Well, the inception begins now.

There's no precedent for this. And it does, I would imagine that your sponsors were like, whoa, like that's not what we signed up for. Like this is a different thing. So, you know, there's very real repercussions to this decision on like your bottom line. Yeah, and you know, going into it, I knew that. There's very real repercussions to this decision on your bottom line. Yeah. And going into it, I knew that.

I knew when I made that decision that every one of my sponsors could drop me. But it was something that I believed I could do. And I really think the things I've been successful at, I've taken a risk. I took a risk by switching sports in college. I think that I hadn't run in like three years. And just all of a sudden started running and I became very successful. And in triathlon, when I became successful, I took big risks. And, you know, my husband quit his job and we moved abroad. We didn't really have much money, that many sponsors at the time. And I was supporting him full time. And I remember the first time I performed really well at a race, and I attribute part of it because my husband had convinced me

to take a risk and fly business class and spend that extra money and invest in yourself. And I think I've really learned throughout my triathlon career that I need to invest in myself, and you need to take big risks if you want to have big rewards. Yeah. I want to talk about the family stuff in a second. But first, I'm interested in what you've learned about the differences because you've now done these three different sports

that are all kind of related, but very different in their own regard. Like, what are the, how do they inform each other? Like, what have you learned? Like, what about swimming informed being a marathon runner, if anything? Like, what are the mistakes that you've learned? And like, how do they complement each other, I suppose, in terms of like, just being an athlete and adopting like a well-honed athlete's mindset. I think, uh, there's so many things, um, you know, swimming definitely taught me how to deal with failure and how to keep, keep at it and, and do everything you can to be prepared

and to succeed. And I think, you know, a lot of times people talk about having a fear of failure, but I think, you know, running taught me that you can also have a fear of success. And that's something that is very interesting. I mean, I think I had a fear of success in running and I had to overcome that and learn how to deal with that. Did that manifest in self-sabotage, or how did you become aware of that? Yeah.

Little things like self-sabotaging, like, my watch is off today because there's no way I was running that fast. As well, just feeling guilty, I think, for my success and that sort of thing. And I think I learned the most about how to be successful just in triathlon with my triathlon coach, Jamie Turner. And he just, he really, he was a coach. He wasn't a psychologist, but he taught me so much about the mentality of viewing things as an investment, not a sacrifice, focusing on the process, not the outcome. You can't focus on being, you know, I've said this big goal that I want to win the Olympics, but that's not what my goals are written down in my journal that I write in every day. Those goals are process-based of, you know, what do I need to do? I need to surround myself with the best. I need to be confronted with the world standard on a

daily basis. And it's going to be difficult. It's going to be hard because I'm going to be failing over and over at the beginning, but I need to continue to pound that rock. And I believe there's success on the other side. Yeah. Well, my sense is that your drive is internal. You're competing against yourself. It's not about beating other people. Is that accurate? That is very accurate. And I think that's the best way to success. I think, you know, when I grew up swimming,

it was all about the outcome. And that led to a very, a life that wasn't fulfilling. You know, I felt like my results defined who I was. And that's just no way to live. I think it leads to a lot of negativity. And once I've realized, okay, focus on the process. And even if the outcome doesn't come, I know that I'm making myself a better person on a daily basis. And that's what will lead to success and happiness because I don't think you can have one without the other.

So how does that look in terms of how you navigate obstacles and setbacks? Like what's the mental approach? Like how do you deconstruct that and work your way through it? Yeah, I like to disengage from my sport. So when I'm not at a workout or I come home from a workout, if it went poorly, I don't, I write in my journal every day and I like, but that's it. Like I don't.

You don't go into a shame spiral. Exactly. It's just like, you know, that was one day. Tomorrow will be better. Like what did I learn from it? Let's move on. And it's something, you know, it's kind of like we talked about earlier, things being linear, and that was with injury. But I think the same thing in training.

You're not every day you can't have a PR, and you can't focus on that outcome because performing under fatigue or performing when you're really just not prepared, I guess. Yeah. So how did you make the choice to go to Bowerman? I think I called a lot of different coaches and Bowerman was definitely my top choice. And I feel really, really honored that they let me come in. It's a very exclusive group. How does that work? I want to know, do you call them up and say, hey, can I join? There's so many ins and outs.

I don't understand this. I've been pursuing Jerry, I told you, for like three years. So I just got to be really persistent. for like three years, you know? So I just got to be really persistent. But it's, so running was unique and different than triathlon in the way that running coaches are often sponsor-based.

So Jerry is a Nike coach. So my first step, I guess, was, you know, joining Nike. And then, you know, having Jerry on board. So you have to be a Nike athlete first before you can even be part of the team. And then Jerry needs to want you to be on the team. So there's a lot of things to step through. It's like being on Tinder or something.

Thankfully, I found my husband before Tinder, so I don't know about much of that. I don't either. But now you're in this position where you're surrounded by these amazing athletes that push you every day. of them all qualified for the Olympics. So, um, you know, I had a really good, uh, success rate and also just being able to be surrounded by Shalane Flanagan, Amy Craig, the best marathoners in the world. You know, they have world medals, they have Shalane won New York. Um, so just being surrounded by them and seeing, you know, what do I need to do? What, how fast do I need to run? What does everything look like?

Like, that's something where I'm able to just learn a lot from them. I have to ask, like, did they just embrace you? Because you're coming in, they're like, oh, this girl, you know, she's claiming, like, she's going to do this and that. And, like, you know, and they must be like, all right, come on. Get an eye roll, yeah, for sure. Was it, like, a little weird at first? Like, did you have to win their trust?

I mean, no, it was super strange in my eyes. I think Shalane, if you know much about Shalane, they talk about like the Shalane effect. And she on our team just empowers women so much by building them up. And she's a big believer in building others up. You know, she's at the top, but she believes everyone can be at the top with her. And just having someone like that on the team is something that's incredible. I think especially with female athletes, I think that's very unique to find. And it's another reason why I was really pursuing Bowerman hard.

Yeah. I mean, that's inspiring. That takes a lot of moral character. Yeah. To be able to hold that space. And so important for female athletes. Yeah. It's that space. And it's very authentic. And it's very authentic for female athletes. Yeah. Yeah. It's really cool. And it does. It definitely, when you're helping somebody else out, it helps them, but it also, I think, helps yourself when you have people around you becoming better, everyone just on a whole,

you're forced to become better athletes and better people. Yeah. Let's talk about the family stuff. So Patrick is like the engine behind this whole thing. Like it's amazing. So you guys met on a group ride years ago. Data got married and he was a professional cyclist at the time and then retired from his career to literally be, you know, the support system for you achieving your dreams, which is like, that's not a small thing. No, I mean, it's huge. I don't think there's many people that would do that.

And I don't think there's many men who are confident enough to do that either. And just having that support and that belief is something that's been super critical. And, you know, it's also, he's actually the one that's allowed me to go after my goals and my dreams. I wasn't willing to move abroad if he wasn't going to go with me. And, you know, I say all this, but actually I'm remembering like the day he told me he was going to,

he was still doing cycling on the side and he was over abroad with me. And I remember he flew out to one of my races and he said, I'm not going back. I'm going to stay here full time with you. I'm going to quit cycling. This is where I need to be. And my first reaction was, I'm playing for that plane ticket back. Who's going to get that refund? We need to get that refund figured out. But he- Always the accountant. I know. Yes. But then my second thing was that I thought was, man, I don't want you to regret this. I don't want you to wish that you would have stayed in cycling. And he just wouldn't give it up.

And I'm really thankful he didn't. Because then there would be resentment. Exactly. That would ultimately probably destroy the relationship. So it has to be for the right reasons. But it seems like it's working out. It's working out really well. He's very opposite of me.

He's very extroverted. He's taught me a lot about how sport can change other people's lives, which has been eye-opening for me and actually made sport a lot more enjoyable for me. I think he's helped me be more bold. He's helped me be more bold. He's helped me just, just be confident. Like I, I don't care about what anyone else thinks or says. Um, his, his opinion definitely matters. Um, but you know, like there's so many trolls on the internet and I think that can really, as especially as an athlete or a public figure like yourself, like I think that can affect you. And for me, I just, he's taught me how that just, it doesn't matter. Yeah. That's empowering. Yeah. It's, it's definitely been life changing. It's, it's something that I think it just leads

to a happy life. You're not stressing out about what other people think. Like it doesn't matter. leads to a happy life. You're not stressing out about what other people think. Like it doesn't matter. Everyone's, not everyone's gonna always support you a hundred percent. And as long as you are doing you and you know that you're becoming a better person, then that's what's important. Right. And you have Stanley who's like two now. So you're juggling being a mom and, you know, being in a healthy marriage and trying to live like, you know, a well-rounded, balanced life at the same time that you're chasing this very audacious goal. So how do you like make all of that, all those pieces fit together? So you're, you know, paying attention to the important things. Yeah, I think, you know, it's challenging for sure. And it was a huge adjustment.

As an athlete, you're so focused on recovery. And then you have a child and you can't just sit in bed all day with your feet up. Thankfully, my son is this very unique person who he only lets me read to him. And he loves reading. But I think he just knows that I need to recover and relax. So I'll come home and he'll literally sit with me for like an hour and we just read books. So, um, you know, we found a system that works where I'm able to get my recovery in, but I also think he's helped a ton with, you know, before I had him, Patrick and I,

we removed ourselves from sport, um, when we'd come home and now it's just so easy to do. Like when I come home, I don't even need to try to not think about sport. It's just all focused on Stanley. How's he doing? What's going on? And it's just like, no matter how, you know, like I think the injury that I had was, it was the hardest thing I've gone through in sport and it was made, I was still able to remain happy throughout that because I came home to this child who was just smiling all the time and just made me excited. And ultimately that keeps you engaged in the sport too, long-term. Like I talked with Kerry Walsh Jennings about this. Like there's this sense that, oh, if you live this monastic lifestyle, that you would be the ultimate badass athlete.

It's just you and what you need to do, and there's no family. You're just training. The life of a swimmer are most triathletes, right? and embraced and believes is that living this family life actually does make her a better athlete because her life is so full in all the important ways that she's able to stay engaged in the sport in a way that she doesn't think that she could or would have otherwise. I 100% agree with that. And I also think it's really good to empower other women and show them that you can have a family and you can still be successful in whatever you're doing, sport or a different job. And that's something that I'm

really passionate about as well. I'm not going to lie. I thought I had a really easy pregnancy and I was like, oh, this is easy. This will be great. Pop the kid out, be running in two weeks, good. And it was not like that at all. Um, you know, I think I, I definitely, uh, underestimated the difficulties of child labor. Back to training pretty quick. Um, I was bedridden for close to a month I'd say. Um, but it, you know, it's, once I started running, it definitely was able to come back pretty quick, but I think it is like important for women to know that you can have it all. You can have the family and the career. And it is, they both compliment each other.

Right. So one of the things that distinguishes you from a lot of other athletes out there is that you're becoming this YouTube star. Can we talk about that a little bit? We can talk about that. I know this is like Patrick's idea, but like I love the channel. And we were talking about that a little bit? We can talk about that. I know this is like Patrick's idea, but like I love the channel.

And we were talking about this a little bit in the van the other day too. Like, I just think it's great. And I think it's de rigueur for all, I think all professional athletes need to like take notice of what you and a handful of other people are doing by sharing your life in a transparent way and showing the behind the scenes process of like what it takes to do what you do really not only is super

inspirational and informative, but it just humanizes you. Like we get to see like, yes, you are a mom and here's how you manage that and do that. And it's really cool. Yeah. I mean, that's something that I actually, I struggled with a lot and I was very against it. Patrick really had to convince me that it was my idea. But it was something for me that we talked about a lot because I was saying like, okay, well, I don't really want to be a personality. And that's all that YouTube is about, right? It's creating like this personality and like a brand and all these things. I was like, I don't want to be about that necessarily.

I want to be about the performing athlete, and I'm not going to do this if it takes away from my performance in any way. So we had Talbot Cox, who's my content creator, come out, and he's actually someone who I think is – I really enjoyed him and he's made it so easy. And that's really why I've been on board. And he's someone who, he was a super fan of mine. Like I met him at a race once, big cut up face of me. And he created this job opportunity for himself. And he went after what he wanted to do. And that's something that really, I think, made me respect him so much and allowed him to come in.

And he makes it easy for me where he feels like family. So it doesn't distract me. It doesn't take away from my training. So that's why I'm able to do it. Yeah, it's cool. And he's also the guy, he does Lionel Sanders videos as well, which I enjoy watching. And he just keeps getting better and better too.

And they're super engaging. And I just think like, you are a professional and I think increasingly so this has to be part of the professional equation, like in terms of how you connect with and extend the reach of the sponsors that you work with. It's just, it's just what it means to be like a successful professional triathlete. Exactly. I mean, I think, you know, if I, a triathlete, I'm trying to convince me subliminal messages.

That was another inception. You don't need to go back to triathlon. I think definitely something that if I could, I would compete and no one would be watching. There'd be no fans, no media, no nothing. But the reality is I couldn't do this as a living if that was how it works. And everyone has a part of their job, I think, that you just accept that you have to do that maybe you don't love. And that's probably the part of my job that I don't love. But I've been increasingly, I've been becoming more and more apt to enjoy it just because so many people come up to me and they say,

oh, I did my first triathlon because I saw this episode. Or I love the books you're reading to Stanley or just all these things that like, that's a great idea. I'm gonna try cooking with my child too or all these different things where I feel like I'm able to hopefully inspire others to get active, to have that balance and to go after big goals

and be able to have that family balance in life too. Well, there's a groundedness to you and like a humility because you're like, all right, we're gonna do this thing. Like, I don't, does anybody care? Like, why is this interesting? But okay, we'll do it. And then like, you know, you look like,

oh, a lot of people are interested in this. And, you know, people wanna know like how it is that you do what you do. So anyway, I think it's cool. I wanna open this up to all of you guys to ask some questions, but before I do that, one final thing I wanted to ask you, which is as somebody who's in the public eye

and people have opinions about athletes, like what's the one thing that you think people get wrong about you? Like that they're not really understanding about what it is that you're trying to do or who you are? Well, you know, I'm someone who like does, you know, I touched on earlier, like I don't really listen to a lot of comments online. I'm not somebody who's like going on and reading, what is that? I don't even know what they call it, forums, you know, like, but I think just probably the biggest recent misconception is just with this switch and me being so bold and saying I want to win or that I say I'm going to win.

And, you know, viewing that as something that's maybe putting down other athletes. I've had a couple of people comment like, well, what do you think about all these other athletes then? And for me, it's no. It's like this is a personal goal. This is what keeps me motivated on a daily basis. And also, I just, I think it's good to set, say your goals out loud. And, you know, I actually had somebody recently, a teammate of mine actually came up to me. He was like, oh, I read a research article that saying your goals out loud creates this atmosphere where you don't succeed in your goals as much because people just give

you praise and you get praise from people saying, oh, that's a great goal to go after. Right. Like without actually having to achieve. Right. But, you know, I've been thinking about that a lot because I, for me, I feel like I've always done my best when I've set big goals and I've been very vocal about them but then I think like well I haven't gotten much like praise like yeah Gwen you can do it like no one's really said that so maybe it maybe that study is true and my goal is just too big for other people but yeah yeah interesting all right uh let's open this up does anybody question do we have we have a roaming mic here, right? Okay, I've had this question like the whole time. What are the most important things that you do

for yourself to keep your mental strong and how do you deal with self doubt? Yeah, I work with a psychologist, but I think my biggest thing is my journal that I keep every day. And when very early on in my professional career, when I first started as a triathlete, I guess it was my triathlon coach, Jamie Turner. He noticed that I was self-sabotaging and he said, we need to start writing down every day, three things that you did well. I also wrote down three things that I could improve on a daily basis.

But for me at the time, I was really struggling with just accepting that I was doing things that were good. And being able to go back in that journal and see the things that I was doing successfully on a daily basis really gave me a lot of confidence going into races. successfully on a daily basis really gave me a lot of confidence going into races. It allowed me to change my mindset as well to view things in a very objective manner instead of just letting my feelings view things. It was like, okay, let's get back to what processes did you do today that were good and which ones could have you improved on? And I think that's allowed me to overcome a lot of... Is that a practice that you still adhere to? It is. I take a break every month. Like once every year, like when I have a downtime,

I spend two weeks where I don't write anything down just to kind of give myself a little break. But yeah, I still do that to this day. Yeah, that's cool. I have a question about your drive and where that comes from and if the origins of that are in some kind of insecurity maybe or perceived deficit in other areas of your life like what what is it that made you latch on to swimming at the time and just gave you that incredible drive that's so unique I I with swimming I think it was me wanting something that was my own. Um, you know, my, my parents growing up, they forced my parents, they forced me and my sister to each do at least one sport and one musical thing. And I hated the violin. I remember. And that's what I chose.

Cause I like, she started us when we were like five. And my sister, older sister, was doing violin at the time. And I thought she was awesome. She is awesome. I still think that. So I copied her and did violin. But as the years went on, I just dreaded I hated playing the violin. It took away from swimming. It was just it was something that I felt like I didn't choose.

I didn't enjoy it. But I had this drive still to be good at it. You know, I was first chair violin. I was successful at it, but I hated it. And I just have always had this drive, like if I like it or if I don't, like I've had this drive to just, I'm going to be the best at whatever I'm doing and I'm going to try that. And, you know, then on the flip side in swimming, I loved it.

And I think the swimming thing was just, it was my own. It wasn't, nobody in my family ever swam. Nobody wanted me to swim. Like I actually got involved in swimming on a competitive swim team because my parents wanted to get me out of the water. And they thought like, well, if we put her in like this swim team, she's going to get sick of it. And then she's not going to like it.

But it just like grew this obsession for me. Back to you choosing it for yourself. Like agency is a big deal with you. Yeah. We're at the origin of ideas and yeah. Yeah. So what's going on with your parents now? They're good? Oh, yeah, my parents are great. I mean, I love them, and I actually, you know, with my own son, I want to encourage the same thing. Like, I think it was great to give me the choice of what instrument and what sport I wanted to play,

but, you know, not having the choice of having to choose one of those. I don't know if that makes sense, but, you know, forcing you to do an activity but letting you choose the activity, I think, is something that's, I think, is something that allowed me to be very successful. And it taught me how, in violin, in the orchestra, how to be successful at something that I hated, and then in swimming, how to put my head down with something that I love. That's all, Jay. Usually, children of professional athletes are unbelievably talented. How would you deal with your son exhibiting an incredible amount of athletic prowess at like three or four or even ten? Yeah, you know, I think I probably, you know, I kind of showed that in running early on.

And my parents, they encouraged me to run, but they never forced me to. And I feel like I really enjoyed that. I think if you force someone in, you force a child into a sport that they don't want to be in, I don't think that's the right route at all. Like, maybe they could have success, but are they going to be happy? I personally don't think so. So for me, you know, maybe our son Stanley will be amazing. He's a big boy.

Like maybe he'd be really great at, I don't know, rugby, sure. And, you know, I'm not going to force him to do it, though, if he doesn't want to. There's a very cute clip, though, in one of your videos where you're on the CompuTrainer in your training room and he's got his own stationary bike that plays a game or a video when he pedals it. So he's like behind you. Exactly. And I think we're definitely exposing him to sport. I want him to see what I'm doing and he enjoys it.

It's super cute. When I'm done pedaling and like my wheel goes and it's like slowing down you know he claps for me like he knows that's the end it's like super cute um and Patrick always brings him out when I'm running to the track and he gets to see that and um it it's so cute because he'll he's over this phase but a couple months ago when he was younger he would every cyclist was dada and every person that was running was mama. So like, we'd be sitting there in the family room and he'd see somebody running and go running mama. And I'm like, Oh, that's not mama. But yeah. So I think it's like, we're definitely exposing him to sport. Um, and I, you know, I think if he sees we're enjoying it,

he'll probably hopefully enjoy it too. Maybe not. Maybe he'll go the opposite route and be like, I want to do nothing that my parents do. Next question. New topic. What do you think of the trials course down in Atlanta? Yeah, so that's interesting. The marathon trials are in Atlanta, super hilly, which isn't necessarily what the Olympics course is going to be like. But for me, I was actually thinking about this the other day, and I have this really long answer that I'm not going to be like. But, you know, for me, I, I was actually thinking about this the other day and I have this really long answer that I'm not going to get into, but like, I feel like I've, I've always, hills have always been bittersweet for me. Um, you know, I think

for me, if I just go out and would run the course without training for it, I would be horrible. Um, and, and a lot of things, you know, I think back to my triathlon days when I'd run, I'd do these hill workouts and I was horrible when we started doing them the first weeks. And by the end of the weeks, I feel like I made the most improvement. I just feel like it's an uphill battle and I have all these metaphors going through my head of, you know, I can train for this course and I believe that I'll, I'll be, I'll be good on it. Um, but I kind of liked that it's uphill battle. Cause of, you know, I can train for this course and I believe that I'll be good on it. But I kind of like that it's uphill battle because this past quad, that's all I've been thinking about is this is an uphill battle. I want to get to the top of the mountain and I want to be successful. So I kind of like how it all plays into this metaphor I have going around in my head.

It's also a very exciting time to be an American female marathon runner in this golden age that we're experiencing right now. It's amazing. And I actually, I love it. I'm thriving off of it. I really believe success breeds success. And, you know, you see these women, you know, Shalane going out there winning major marathons. I think it really showed all the other American women that I can do this. We can do this.

We can compete with the best in the world. We can be the best, and that's just something that's really exciting, and I think it's just allowed the sport to flourish. Yeah, there's so much momentum, and the spotlight is on you guys right now. It's pretty cool. It's amazing. As a pro athlete, you spend a lot of your time in the pain cave. When you're in the pain cave, what are a couple of your mantras that you give yourself to

keep going and get to the next step? Yeah. Um, you know, I've never been a big like mantra person, but what I've, I've learned in my, in my triathlon days for me, I've focused on saying things over and over that were techniques. So like when I'm running and it's getting painful, I just say like relax the shoulders or increase the cadence, something that will help my form but distract my brain from the pain. But I find I perform best when I'm not thinking about that stuff and you're just so engaged in the race and like making moves and being aware and alert. Like that's, I think that mental state is what I 90% of the time I'm in and that's when I'm performing the best is like when I'm not even

like you're going through so much pain but you're just you saw I don't know how to describe it it's just like you're more focused and alert and aware and you're just like okay what's the next move who's going to make that move this person's there how are they feeling what are they doing and just kind of like an out of body like trying to sense what everyone else is doing not what your own body is fully present yeah more present in that moment there's that chatter of yeah wanting to quit yeah cool um you said that triathlon chose you but i'm i'm wondering what it's like to be the clear favorite in an Olympic race like in Rio, knowing that there's this massive story behind it. was that to know that the story had sort of wrapped up the way you wanted, where I think a lot of us thought you would take this career and just sort of keep going.

And if it hadn't ended like that, you know, you had these other plans. Yeah, I think, you know, that emotion in that race, the Olympic race, was such, I didn't know that I was going to have so much relief. That was probably the biggest emotion I had, which I wasn't planning for or thinking I was going to have. It was, holy cow, I just put four years into one day, and I somehow performed on that one day. What is the likelihood that you're going to feel good and perform well on, on one day when you're preparing for four years for a one day event? Like it was just incredible. But it was interesting because going into that race,

um, I was the most calm I've ever been. It was a very unique situation. Like normally I get pretty nervous before races and, and that one, even though I was the favorite, I just, it was something where I felt like, you know what, I did all the work. I'm prepared and whatever happens is going to happen. So it was a very, that, that race was just so unique in that way. Cause I've never felt that way before. Did you have a sense when you crossed the finish line that you were done? Were you consciously aware that that would be your last race or did that come later? No. And, you know, I actually, I competed in more triathlons that year.

It was actually like I did the world championship that year. And that's like the only thing I regret ever doing is doing that race because my heart just wasn't in it. I remember going to training and I was just so grumpy and just didn't want to do it. And it was really difficult. How do you celebrate? What does winning look like? Yeah, you know, I think that's something I learned from Jamie Turner, my triathlon coach as well, is celebrate. Don't just move on. I think a lot of times, especially as an elite athlete, you finish a race and you look at all the negatives.

I think you need to do that. You need to look at where can I improve? How can I get better? But as well, you just need to celebrate. You don't know, as an athlete, something could happen where it could put you out of the sport forever. And I think, you know, those moments when you do have success and you've put in a ton of work and it's paid off, you need to celebrate. Um, and so, you know, for me, it's always going out to dinner with my team and they always have lots of beers and stuff.

I don't normally, sometimes I'll have a sip of my husband's or two. But just going out to eat with them and really celebrating with them and enjoying their time. I think as an athlete, I'm really fortunate that my family travels a lot to races. My parents, my sister, my in-laws. And as an athlete, you don't really get to, you miss a lot of weddings and family occasions and you're not there for Christmas and all the holidays. And so to be able to just spend time with them, that's the biggest celebration that I can have post-race. So I've been a fan of yours for a very long time.

So I watched your race in Rio and then when you decided to transfer into just running and doing marathon, we actually ran Chicago Marathon. Oh, yeah. I saw you at the finish line after you had already run, and you were congratulating people, and I thought that was so cool. So I'm definitely rooting for you to win gold, for sure. Do you foresee that you would have a similar feeling

in the sense that you would want to change sports? Because you seem to be someone that is always looking for the next challenge. Modern pentathlon. But I think that's really, really cool. So do you feel like that's just something that's in you that you don't want to do the same thing and do it twice? You'd rather do it once and be the best and then move on and find something new that you can improve on? It's so weird because I like, I like consistency and actually really dislike change, but my, my major life decisions don't really show that.

But I think for me, the reasons I, I, I changed sport are a lot of times I've reached what I believe is my ceiling. And it doesn't motivate me to, to do what I've already done. And, you know, so I don't know, like if I, if I'm successful in running, I think I, I right now I plan to run as long as I feel like I have more in me, more potential to reach. And as long as the love of it is still there. You know, most, most of us will not be able to taste sort of the fraction of 1% athletes. So I was just curious if you had any nuggets for the everyday athlete. Yeah, I think not being afraid to surround yourself with people who are better

than you. I think a lot of times, you know, we like to remain in this comfort zone of maybe being your best or you don't want to, you know, maybe you find it humiliating if somebody beats you or whatever it is. And I just feel like being in a group environment where you have people to push you on a daily basis, to have people that are better than you, that's something that I find really encouraging and it holds you accountable because you have to meet them at a certain time. So, you know, you're not going to skip a workout because you know that they're counting on you. Then I also think, you know, everyone brings something different to the table. And a day that you're doing well, you're able to uplift others.

And a day when others are doing well, they're able to uplift you. And it just makes everyone in the group be able to have more success. What does a day in the life look like? See, everyone thinks like being an athlete is super exciting. I don't, I think it's kind of just whatever. It's, you know, I wake up and do on a typical running day or a typical what I used to do in triathlon day. Maybe like what it's like typical running day,

but like non-injured running day. Well, because I think there's this idea like, oh, you just run a couple of times a day and then you just go about your life or whatever but your your attention to detail and all these other you know the PT areas and all that you know the with the nutrition like all of that it's like it's full-on like from dawn to dusk yeah I think sports a unique thing and everything you do throughout the day affects your performance so it's not like a nine to five. Like you can't ever, like I can't totally shut off.

Like, and you don't get weekends off. Like everything you do affects your performance, resting, what you put in your body, what you're eating. So typical day, you know, in running, I think what I underestimated when I switched sports was how much prehab is done. And, you know, in triathlon, I used to be able to wake up and literally run from my door. And now there's no way I could wake up and just run. I have these exercises that I do to warm up the body for, I normally wake up, have breakfast, do some like warmup exercises at the house for like 15 minutes, go to Nike and do a couple more quick activation things to get my glutes firing, my abs firing.

Is this because you're just, the run volume is so much higher that it requires that? Cause the run volume is so much higher. So like to prevent injury and then, you know, just everything is the pounding you're putting on your body. You just need to make sure that every step you take is the correct biomechanically. Otherwise, you're just going to put yourself in this huge hole. And then, you know, as well in triathlon, if I'd roll out of bed and go for a run, I'd be going like nine-minute pace.

And now, like, these are quality runs. When I wake up, like, we need to be ready to go and, like, actually get a good workout out of it. So, like, just making sure the body's primed and ready. Um, so we do, I do some of those activation things to make sure everything's firing and ready to run. And then I'll run for in the morning, anywhere from an hour to an hour and a half, um, then do an hour strength session in the gym. And then I go home, have lunch, take a nap. And then I do a second run anywhere from 35 to an hour. And then I have treatment, I say every other day, but it's four or five times a week. So that's more than every other day um you know it's getting dry needling i'm getting massage pt so there's definitely a big portion of it is is keeping that body healthy it's not just

netflix on the couch no and it will if it is on those like one or two days that i don't have a treatment it's my husband working out stuff on my foot and my calves and yeah. Yeah. You just quoted time. And as somebody who knows a little bit about Bowerman, Jerry Miles are more about time and less about miles. Can you explain to everybody here a little bit about that? And has that changed anything for you as in your training? Yeah. So my husband always gets mad at me because I always tell him, he's like, how long, how far did you run? And I tell him it in Jerry miles. So Jerry miles are, you get to count eight minutes as one mile. And we almost always run faster than that. So, you know, I'll be like, oh, I ran 120 miles this week and pass like, well, how many actual miles,

like GPS miles. And it's always way more than that, but that's Jerry Miles. And, you know, it's, it's something that I think is, it's done for a very unique, a good reason, you know, especially like if you go to altitude and you are fatigued, you don't want to have to worry. It's the, it's the time on the feet that really fatigues that body. It's not the miles. So like at altitude, you're probably going slower and maybe you are going slower than eight minute miles but it's that time on the feet that we want to count because that's what can you know lead to injury and and that major fatigue I guess interesting but I think counting miles I've actually really enjoyed it it's something when I switched to so when I was running in college, everything was in

miles and then I switched to triathlon and everything was in kilometers. So I've actually really enjoyed this because every time I've started a new sport, I feel like I've had nothing to compare because I just switch times. Now you're in jerrys. Exactly. And you just, I think it's smart. You know, Jamie, my triathlon coach told me it's not about the outcome and it's not about You know, Jamie, my triathlon coach, told me it's not about the outcome and it's not about what that mile split is. And it just, it's about focusing on, are you doing everything correct on a daily basis? And if you are focusing on that technique and that process, that's what's going to lead to the success. Not every mile was 705 today or some, it's not some magic outcome number that's going to lead to success I think in swimming I think that was when I switched to triathlon that was actually really difficult for

me mentally to overcome because in swimming everything is so time-based it's things are on time cycles like send-offs and I remember my Jamie would not give us send-offs he would just say go do you know eight 200s at threshold and I'd be like okay what's the send-offs. He would just say, go do, you know, eight 200s at threshold. And I'd be like, okay, what's the send-off? He's like, that's, you got to decide that. And I'm just like, deer in a headlight. Like, it took me a long time. He's like, whatever it needs to be.

Yeah, but you get to make the decision for yourself. You should like this. In training, I like somebody else to tell me what to do. I think, you know, I've definitely learned, like, as an athlete, if I don't have a coach, I'd say they're holding me back in a good way. Not in a negative way. Like if I coach myself, I would always think like more is better, more is better, more is better. And I think that's a bad mentality to get into. I think it's really good to see the bigger picture, to see that you need recovery days, that sort of thing. Yeah.

All right, we got to round this out. I thought a great way to kind of end it would be if Patrick could come up here. Oh. Do you mind coming in here for a second? And I can exit the seat? Yeah. He gets a hot seat. Not so fast. No, but I want to ask him one question, which is, you know, look, as, you know, very much Gwen's partner and right-hand person in, you know, in life and career and sport and everything.

What is, you know, what do you think is something that the public doesn't quite grasp or understand about who this incredible athlete is? about who this incredible athlete is? You know, I think one thing that Gwen has a great ability to do is to motivate and inspire those around her. There's a ton of service providers that come in and have their fingerprints on Gwen, whether they're a massage therapist, a chiro, whoever. And I think going back to Gwen making those goals very public that that turns into holding them accountable and I think I think that that's been one big

thing the other one is I think Gwen is a very curious person and once she has her eyes set on something that could make her performance a lot better she asks a ton of questions and wants to just grab as much information from that person as possible. Yeah, that sounds like that goes back to the ownership thing, right? Yeah, and I think, you know, Pat's saying that, and I think something that we've been not afraid to do is push limits and push boundaries with sponsors. And, you know, I've had, uh, there was one sponsor in my triathlon days where I, I was offered maybe like five times the amount of money for a

different sponsor in the same category. It was ridiculous. Or this other company who was offering me less money, but willing to innovate and make a product that I believed would make me a better athlete. And that's something that I've always been really passionate about. I never would call myself curious, but I am. I'm curious as to how can we make this sport better? How can we improve? What have they not thought about that we can do? And I think that leads back to bringing four bikes to Rio,

and you don't need to, you know, and eight swimsuits. And we'd show up at the airport and people are just like, what in the world? Like, we had thousands of bags. It was ridiculous. So, yeah, it is like being curious and pushing the limits and seeing what can we do to be the best athlete. Is there something that somebody else is forgetting about that we can get an edge on? And, you know, I think, you know, switching over to running, it was, yeah, I knew, like, this is going to be a huge challenge.

I've never run this much in my life. I don't, I haven't been running for years. Like, I didn't run, you know, I didn't even run fully in college. And, you know, I don't have those running mileage, but I knew that I could bring other areas. Like there are, to my knowledge, nobody like Patrick out there where somebody is like fully supporting the athlete and like doing all the grocery shopping, doing all the cooking, like carrying the bags, like every, whatever it is to make my life easier so that I can perform. And I'm like, you know, we've figured out what it takes on all the logistics and we know what it takes on the

mental side. And so I'm like, you know, I have a few boxes that I can take over from triathlon that will help me overcome that battle that I have in competing against women who have been running their entire life. Yeah. The team aspect of everything you're doing is like huge. Oh, yeah. There's so many moving pieces in this. And Patrick, you really, you know, by all accounts, you're the one who's driving this whole thing. I mean, I always say like I would never win,

never would have won triathlon without him. And I definitely wouldn't, I mean, I never would have had the courage to, to go abroad. I was very introverted. I still am like home body person and, um, Patrick and my team around me allowed me to push my limits and what I thought I was capable of, I guess. Yeah. All right. I think that's a good place to end it. So 210 some odd days, trials, uh, all of us will be tuning in eagerly to cheer you on and, um, excited for you. It's really cool. It's inspiring. And, uh, I appreciate you sharing with everybody today. Thank you. Both of you guys, like, can't wait to see what you're gonna do.

Cool. Thanks. All right, thank you guys. Inspiring that Gwen Jorgensen, isn't she? I really enjoyed that. I hope you guys did too. Good stuff. For more on the world of Gwen Jorgensen,

please visit the show notes on the episode page at richroll.com. There you can extend your experience more on the world of Gwen Jorgensen, please visit the show notes on the episode page at richroll.com. There you can extend your experience of this incredible human being with tons of links and resources to go beyond the earbuds. And please let her know directly how you felt about today's conversation by sharing your thoughts with her on Twitter or Instagram at Gwen Jorgensen. And don't forget to check out her YouTube channel as well. It's pretty cool. It's just YouTube, Gwen Jorgensen. Google it, you'll find it. Links in the show notes as well. If you'd like to support our work here on the podcast, just tell your friends about the

show or your favorite episode. Share the show on social media, take a screen grab, or how about just in person, letting your friend know over lunch that you're enjoying the show? That would be cool. Subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, on YouTube, on Google Podcasts. Leave a review on Apple Podcasts. And you can support us on Patreon at richroll.com forward slash donate. One afterthought that I just had, Apple Podcasts just announced new categories for podcasts. And we historically have been under the health category and the subcategory of fitness and nutrition. Now we are under the category of education and self-improvement being the subcategory.

So if you've had difficulty tracking it down on that platform, that's where we're now located. And that's also where you can direct other people to find our show. I want to thank everybody who helped put on the show today, Jason Camiolo for audio engineering, production, show notes, interstitial music. Blake Curtis and Margo Lubin generally video this podcast, but this is an audio-only one. But I do want to thank them as well because they're hard at work on all these other videos, and Blake right now is sitting on the other side of this window handling audio engineering. So what's up, Blake? Jessica Miranda for graphics, DK for advertiser relationships, portraits generally by Allie Rogers, but not this week. These portraits were taken by Talbot Cox, the ones of Gwen that you'll see there. So thank you, Talbot. And theme music as always by Annalimma.

Appreciate you guys. Thank you for the love. See you back here in another couple of days with a natural lifestylist, Tony Riddle. It's a good one. We made a cool video for that one too. Some barefoot running tutorial type stuff, kind of vloggy. It's very cool.

You're gonna dig it. So until then, be well. Peace, plants, namaste. Thank you.