The Rich Roll Podcast - Hakim Tafari Is The Journeyman Of Reinvention

Episode Date: November 2, 2020

Although Hakim Tafari defies categorization, a few things are clear. This guy has light. And his journey of personal transformation is nothing short of remarkable. Hakim is a unique and gentle soul of many trades and traits. But fundamentally, he is a seeker. A journeyman of reinvention. An ambassador of running culture & mindfulness. A master of many a martial art from Kung Fu to Tai Chi. An herbalist, massage therapist, a vegan. And an ardent student and practitioner of several spiritual traditions from Buddhism to Daoism. Hakim’s life didn’t come easy. Nor was it delivered overnight. Instead it’s the hard-wrought product of devotion to progressive growth. To being just a little bit better today than yesterday. Today he shares his story. Paved with solid life lessons, this conversation is one man’s hero’s journey. It’s about transformation. It’s about finding peace in failure. Creating a mindfulness-based lifestyle. The call to blaze a spiritual path. And the pangs of growth. But more than anything, this is a dialog about finding freedom — in mind, body, and soul. I’ve had the pleasure of conversing with a diversity of extraordinary humans. But every blue moon I luck into a mind-meld that elevates an exchange into a higher gear. This is one such experience — a connection marked with heart and truth. Vulnerability and authenticity. The visually inclined can watch our exchange on YouTube. And as always, the podcast streams wild and free on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Enjoy! Peace + Plants, Rich

So there was a time when I used to pack a gun with me everywhere. That was such a dark, dark time, and I had probably contemplated suicide four or five times. And one of the stories that I always tell people, a friend of mine said, you need something. Come to the temple. At the time, I didn't know what the temple was. She said, come to the temple. At the time, I didn't know what the temple was. She said, come to the temple. So I drive up there, and I've got this big Springfield 45 next to me.

And at the time, I had just got off the phone with my ex. We had just gone into a major argument. I'm literally just like shaking uncontrollably, and I'm like, do I just do it right now? I'm looking at the gun. I'm in front of the temple. I'm looking at the gun. And then I'm like, all right, fuck it.

I'm going to go do whatever this fucking thing is. I don't know what I'm going to get into, but I'm going to do it. That could have been my last day on the earth. And instead, I chose to sit in front of a wall in silence for an hour and a half. My name is Hakim Tafari, and this is The Rich Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey, everybody. Welcome to the podcast.

Quick reminder, I've got a new book coming out. It's called Voicing Change. It's basically inspiration and timeless wisdom lifted from my eight years of hosting this podcast, thousands of hours spent talking to hundreds of extraordinary people and all wrapped in stunning photography to make for an awesome addition to your coffee table book collection. I'm so proud of this book.

It's gorgeous. It's compelling. To learn more and pre-order, visit voicingchange.com. We ship globally and we're selling it exclusively and only through our website, voicingchange.com or richroll.com we ship globally and we're selling it exclusively and only through our website voicingchange.com or richroll.com we're brought to you today by recovery.com i've been in recovery

for a long time it's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because, unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem, a problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at

recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs. They've partnered with the best global behavioral health providers to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself. I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful, and

recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and

the right level of care, especially because, unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem. A problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com, who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs. They've partnered with the best global behavioral health providers to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen,

or battling addiction yourself, I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. So today's guest, Hakam Tafari, is first and foremost, cool. Like, super cool. Cool in that category-defying way. Beyond that, it's kind of a challenge to describe this unique soul as he is and does so

many things. His story is remarkable and beautiful. And ultimately, I guess I would say that above all else, Hawk is a seeker. He's a journeyman of reinvention, an ambassador of running culture and mindfulness, a master of many a martial art from Kung Fu to Tai Chi. He's an herbalist, a massage therapist, a vegan, and a student and practitioner of many spiritual traditions from Buddhism to Taoism and everything in between. Along the way, Hawk has overcome quite a lot, I would say, to create this very intriguing and exceptional life that he leads today. So, paved with solid life lessons, this is a conversation about Hawk's hero journey. It's about transformation.

It's about finding peace in failure, creating a mindfulness-based lifestyle and spiritual growth. But more than anything, this exchange is about finding freedom, freedom in mind, freedom in body, and freedom in soul. I guess I'd like to add that I had the pleasure over the years of conversing with a lot of incredible people, but every once in a while, I click with someone in a certain way that kind of takes everything to the next level into this higher gear. And I think this is one such experience. It's full of heart and truth

and vulnerability and authenticity. My hope is that Hawk's words inspire, enliven and guide you towards a more meaningful way of life and also a total re-imagination of your personal truth. So with that, I give you Hakem Tofuri. Cheers, man. Welcome to the podcast studio.

Thank you. So good to have you here, man. It's so funny because we just met. Yeah. Thank you. So good to have you here, man. It's so funny because we just met. And the circumstances around how we met are so bizarre. We shot this little commercial video for Jay Bird. We both worked with Jay Bird. And part of that project was us encountering each other as if we were lifelong buddies.

So we had to go into a little bit of a method acting thing to do it. But I had so much fun hanging out with you all day. And I just thought this would be great, man. You have an amazing story. And so I'm delighted to have you here today to share a little bit about it. Thank you for having me.

And then in the wake of that, you go off to, we're trying to schedule the date and you're like, I'm gonna be out of town and I'm checking your Instagram and you're hanging out in Montana with Conrad Anker. What were you doing out there? So I'll give you this a little brief, cause obviously I'm held to this NDA thing that they are. But-

Top secret project. Yeah, it's kind of top secret um but it was an amazing amazing time um in fact i didn't know that i was going to be hanging out with conrad until like a week before um but i got a call for the special project and we're like yeah um we'd really want you to come out to wyoming it's going to be based around. I said Montana. It was Wyoming. Wyoming. My bad.

That's okay. Sorry. So they said, you know, we want you to come out. It's going to be this crazy project. You're going to be here with a whole bunch of people that you don't know. And Conrad's going to lead this expedition. And we're going to do Gannet. But we ended up doing Wolverine, the Wild Tetons. this expedition and we were gonna do Gannet,

but we ended up doing Wolverine, the wild Tetons and got to hang out with some indigenous folk and yeah, the rest was history. You're being really cagey about what exactly was going on, but like I get it. You know, they were like, you know, keep your mouth shut. I got you. You can only share a little bit, but you shared enough for me to gather that you bonded with Conrad. I mean, what a beautiful

guy that guy is. Oh, that guy is, that guy is. He's a treasure. Yeah, he is a living treasure. And you know, I was just talking about him today. He really is, he's like a monk on a mountain he's a monk on a mountain he's like a real bodhisattva in in the aspect that he is so free giving and his knowledge and this is his wisdom his compassion is just and we had this running joke and i was like i don't really look up to a lot of middle-aged white men i really don't i'll be the first one to tell you right and you're like he's my mentor now yeah but conrad is literally like my mentor he's like you know there was a couple of experiences i had on the hike and he was just there with me and he was literally like my Obi-Wan.

He was all my Yoda, so to speak. And we were in the Dagobah system and I was just teaching me the ways. What do you make of that? I mean, what is it about him that's so special, you think? You know, I get the human experience. I get the human experience with Conrad. Like there's not a lot of people that you meet offhand,

right off the bat, and you can tell it's very, very authentic. It's very, very genuine. And you can tell that he's lived so many lives. And within those so many lives, he's had so many experiences that have led him to where he's at right now. And that's what's beautiful about this being around him to where he's at right now. Yeah. And that's what's beautiful about this being around him. I mean, for people that are listening or watching who aren't familiar with who he is,

I mean, he's probably the greatest living mountaineer climber in the world. He's done everything. He has lived nine lives. It's incredible. Yeah. And he's so giving to the younger generation, like the whole kind of expedition community just reveres him.

Oh yeah, totally. And one of the things, and we'll probably get into a little bit later, but one of the things that we talked about, and this was literally after this like three days meeting him and we just bonded, right? And when I left, he was like, we're gonna do something to bring black and Latinx folks to the mountains. Yeah. I was like, I'm with it, let's do it.

That's needed. I mean, it sort of is the purview of the older white dude. Yeah. You know what I mean? I mean, that's something I talked with Myrna about as well, with respect to her relationship with trail running, that these pursuits are traditionally so white, and that's gotta change.

So how do we do that? Coming in spaces like this. We bring Hawk in, right? Yeah, I'm like, let's go. We're hitting this space, that space, and this space. Well, it's quite a trajectory and arc of your life. I mean, there's so many, it's hard to get a grip on your story

because there's so many permutations to it. But when you look at point A from where you came from and kind of all the things that you've done over the course of your life to end up like on a mountain with Conrad or shooting television commercials for Jay Bird. It's pretty amazing, right? Yeah, and the amount of time that it's, I mean, in the grand scheme of things,

I'm 46 years old, but in the last six, seven years, it's just been. Right, it's cool. Yeah. And I think in reflecting, you know, as I was driving over here, trying to wrap my head around you and your story, it's all an outgrowth of the investment

that you've made in your own personal spiritual development. Right, like these are outward manifestations of what has been very much an inward journey for you. Most definitely. around personal spiritual development, right? Like these are outward manifestations of what has been very much an inward journey for you. Most definitely. Yeah, so let's take it back. Let's go all the way back to the beginning. Woo!

I wanna hear about Ipswich. Oh man, Ipswich. So I was born and raised in Ipswich. It's a little town right outside of London. It's about hour, an hour and a half outside of London. I think Ipswich is most known for Ipswich Town FC, which is a football club, which was really big in the late 70s, early 80s.

They were a premiership league team. And that was really the big thing about Ipswich. We had a great football team, right? And for the American listeners, that's soccer. I think they're getting it, you know, as we're all falling in love with your accent, which feels like you're right out of a Guy Ritchie movie. And your parents are of Jamaican descent?

Yep, my parents are Jamaican descent. They came to England in the 60s. My dad is a jack of all trades as far as welder, mechanic, he did everything. And then my mother came over here as a nurse and ended up becoming a psychiatric nurse. And that was a weird scene, you know, having to pick up my mom from a mental institution, you know, in the late 70s, early 80s. And just, I remember that was just very surreal, very surreal.

So yeah, so growing up in Ipswich, going to a predominantly all white elementary school and then going to a very not so diverse high school. And what kind of kid were you? Well, I would say I was up until I reached high school. And what kind of kid were you? Well, I would say I was, up until I reached high school, I was a pretty hands-on books kid, right? My parents were drilled it into me. They were like, you know, we didn't get the college show.

You're making sure that you're going to college. And it's starting from now. So they were very, very, you know, hands on, make sure you get your books, your homework, done stuff like that. And then high school happened. So during high school, I had cousins who were older than me and they were kind of like my protectors, right?

And everyone knew my cousins from that school. And then I had cousins, you know, that's the thing with Ipswich, everyone knew kind of everyone. And within the black community, the West Indian community, everyone knew everyone. Everyone had an auntie or cousin and uncle who knew such and such. So in a way I was kind of protected. Even though I went to a predominantly white school, people knew my cousins. People knew who were associated with my cousins. So they didn't really mess with me too much. I would get into an odd fight here and there to prove myself. But other than that, I didn't really get picked on.

And then my cousins left that high school. And then it was kind of like, okay. Game on. Yeah, it was like Kumite in high school and then it was kind of like, okay. Game on. Yeah, it was like Kumite in high school. Yeah. It really was. Especially towards the last few years, it was education was there, but I was going for a whole rite of passage. you know um playing footy with the boys and then discovering art which i was really getting into

and then discovering hip-hop and american culture and then discovering like things like malcolm x and martin luther king and the civil rights movement and the five percent so all this stuff is happening between the ages of like 14 and 16 and um i started rebelling a little bit as we all do when we get into those teenage years and uh after a while i i was brought up and raised in the anglican Church of England. I was an altar boy. And then 16 hit, I found alcohol. I found some other vices and it was kind of like, yeah, off to the races. And one of the things that was really instrumental, I would say, in my upbringing was at 16, I wanted to go to art college or art school. And I was doing comic book art. And I wasn't really serious with art at school.

I was just doing my own stuff. And my teacher, I remember my teacher one day just saying like, what are you doing? What are you doing with yourself? You're hardly coming to school. You're hardly learning. What are you really gonna do with yourself? Because you're definitely not gonna make it in art.

And that lit a fire. My last year, it lit a fire in me. And- The idea that being told you can't- Yeah. Motivated you to do it. And art school is kind of more of a thing in England than it is here.

Big time, big time, big time. You know, those vocational schools, especially back in the mid 80s were really big in England. You know, you had afterschool programs, you had youth programs, stuff like that. You know, you had afterschool programs, you had youth programs, stuff like that, you know, and this was during the time of Thatcherism and, you know, that big recession that England had at the time. So the youth were kind of wild at that time.

And a lot of us, you know, the rave scene was really big and you were either into the rave scene, you were either playing footy or you were doing art and you were living in that art and in that art was when i found like you know guys who were into hip-hop and guys who were really culturally kind of diverse and um i started being other than what my parents saw me and what the community saw me i kind of was kind of outgrowing them so to speak and then i was going off to london i had a sister in london i have two sisters and one of them lived in london and i would go to london and just hang out there and soak up that culture and i'd go to museums and go to soho and go to the record store and pick up vinyl and then then at 16, I decided to leave home,

which killed my parents. What was the motivation behind that? Why did you feel like you had to get out? At that time, I thought I was a man. Yeah. You know, I was coming into new things. I was finding myself. I was hanging out with these kind of bohemian cats who were

already in art school and they had known people who I had known. So I was hanging out with them. And then funny enough, I got into art school, right? In London or where did you move to? In Ipswich. There was a really big art college called Suffolk Art College that a lot of famous artists came out of. In fact, one of my teachers was Brian Eno. Oh my God. For anyone who knows who Brian Eno is.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I'm just, when I said that art, my sense that art school is a bigger thing in England than it is here, I'm thinking about all the musicians, you know, like the Radiohead guys, like, you know, all these great artists are a product of kind of, it's a state thing though, right? Like it's not like private colleges. No, no, you could go to a private college, but most of us, you know, we got on rides and, you know, I was lucky in the fact that I was working two jobs. I had worked two

jobs since I was like 13, 14. So I was making some income anyway. And then I was getting in the fact that I was working two jobs. I had worked two jobs since I was like 13, 14. So I was making some income anyway. And then I was getting a little bit of help on the side. So that's how I basically managed to live kind of rent-free. I was squatting with my cousin and going to art college and working at Clowns as a dishwasher at night. Right, so you moved out from your parents' house, but you were still in Ipswich and going to school.

Yeah, yeah. Right. So yeah, through 16 up until I was about 18, man, I was wild. Yeah, making the scene. I was wild, man. I mean, were drugs a part of that? Drugs and drinking and partying and just the music?

Yeah, I was running with a lot of cats who were dealing with ecstasy at the time. And then hash was real big. And hash was real big in the college scene, in our college scene. So we were dealing hash, we were selling hash, we were selling ecstasy, the whole nine yards. Good times. Yeah, it was a wild time. So how long did you do that for? Oh, so up until-

Did you graduate from art school? Yep, I graduated. And I was about 17, 18. And I got a phone call from my cousin. One of my cousins in London who I was very, very close with. And she came to Ipswich to visit some family. And she came to where I was squatting. She was pissed. She's like, you need to come see your parents. They got some news for you. So I went to go over there for Sunday dinner. I hadn't been over there

in probably months. We just didn't get on. So I go over there and they were like, we got some news for you. I was like, okay, well, what is it? My cousin was the media at the time and it was a green card. And they were like, do you want to come to America with us? We're going. Wow. with us we're going wow so at that time i just had i had a couple of mates of mine go to jail um we had known a couple of um there was one family friend who had just committed suicide in jail who we knew um whole bunch of mates of mine were really getting into the whole ecstasy thing and dealing and-

So the good times were turning dark. The tide was starting to turn. The tide was starting to turn. You got your crew, but you're starting to get a glimpse that this might be headed to nowheresville. Yeah, it was like the future is looking bleak if you don't make a change. And at the time I was looking at unis,

universities to carry on art, but I had to weigh my options. And at a time I was really enamored by hip hop, I was so enamored by hip hop, like watching your MTV raps, watching Fab Five Freddy. I had an American uncle who was on the Air Force Base. So it was a lot of comic books, hot dogs, the whole nine yards, right?

The whole American culture. So I was like, okay, let's give it a shot. Brooklyn. There you go. It's not like they were moving to St. Louis or something like that, right? Like Brooklyn, like it's happening there, right? Yeah. And you're thinking you're a grown man, but you're 17. Oh, right. Yeah, I was 17, just turning 18. And I was not a man. I was not a man because I got

thrusted into Brooklyn. And meanwhile, I want to preface it I had gone to Brooklyn like every other summer it was a it was a thing for my family to kind of send me over so I already kind of knew I was raised in Brooklyn so to speak it was like a second home to me um I remember buying my first Big Daddy Kane album on Flatbush Avenue. I remember buying my first pair of fat laces and some Adidas shell toes. You know what I mean? So I knew Flatbush, but this was during the crack era. This was like 91. This was big, like Jamaican posses were running Flatbush.

So I get the Flatbush and it wasn't the flatbush that I knew. And I had an uncle who had worked for the World Trade Center at the time. He was a security guard. And I had two aunts and two cousins who lived in this brownstone. And I lived there for about half a year. And originally- You get back into school in Brooklyn? Well, that was the thing.

I had originally planned on going to Pratt or FIT, but I just got jaded when I was there. It was just not how I envisioned it. It was fast paced. It was not New Yorkork how you know so i had my father's sister lived in austin texas and i was really close because those were the cousins that were my protectors in high school yeah and um i remember having a conversation with my aunt and she was like, do you want to move to Austin? Maybe it'll be a little bit easier for you here.

So New York, Brooklyn, overwhelming. Overwhelming. Now, let's keep in mind, I ended up coming back to Brooklyn a little bit later as I got older. And that was like a rite of passage for me. But we'll come back to that. So I moved to Austin, Texas and lived in Austin from 92 all the way up until about 98. And that was, that's another chapter in my life. Yeah, so what was going on there?

You fell into like the South by Southwest. Yes, yes, yes. So after kind of establishing myself and kind of making new friends, and I had a lot of friends who were going to UT, the University of Texas, getting enamored in Texas culture, learning about Texas relays,

the Mexican culture within Texas, cowboy culture. It was, because to be honest with you- That had to be strange. Oh, well, to be honest with you, you got to remember this boy from Ipswich, and all I could think about with Texas was Dallas. That's all I knew about was Dallas. Not even the football team, just Dallas, the TV show. The TV show, JR.

Yeah. And there was no black folks on there. So I'm thinking to myself. Definitely not. And I'm thinking about John Wayne, and I'm thinking about everything Texas, and I'm like. It's amazing you even went, if that's all you knew. You know, I've had this love-hate relationship with being in uncomfortable situations,

and I've just thrusted myself in them. And this was one of them. But it ended up being such a duel in the rough. Because coming to Austin was where I truly learned about veganism, vegetarianism, kung fu, the Eastern martial arts, herbs. This, everything you could think of was all in my growth in that span of time of being in Austin, Texas. And in that time, you know, I moved to America before

my parents and my parents ended up coming to New York. And then they ended up coming to Austin, staying in Austin, and then leaving Austin to go to Florida. Because, you know, in that time of living in Austin, it was really hard for my parents. West Indian, my dad doesn't really have too much of a scholastic background. I mean, basically got told he was to become a man when he was 14 years old. And I mean, there was just not really much work for him. He worked in a plastic warehouse

and then he ended up getting laid off. He worked in a plastic warehouse and then he ended up getting laid off. So my mom ended up becoming the breadwinner. And then her dilemma was that she would have to go back to school. So, luckily they had their pensions from England, but it was really, really rough for them. And I would suspect, I mean, getting your green card,

there's all this promise, the American dream, we're gonna go to America and we're gonna stake our claim and we're gonna have this life and then to be met with resistance and frustration. Oh, it was, yeah. I mean, they've already suffered it from England and luckily they were able to build up and establish themselves.

But then to come here and to start from square one again and come from the root, I mean, and I know my mom is gonna watch this and be like, "'Why are you telling the story?' But I have to, I remember being, God, maybe 1920." And I know we're supposed to talk about South by Southwest, but we'll come back to that. That's all right, man, we got time, not all day.

I remember one time having, you know, just trouble getting into the nursing system and, you know, she was doing some work, going to people's houses and helping elderly, but it was doing a number on her back and she already had back issues already. And something happened and she ended up taking another job and it ended up being McDonald's. And I just remembered those times of her having to navigate working, helping elderly,

working, helping elderly, breaking her back. My father's not working. I think I was working like Circuit City or something like that. I wasn't really making that much money. And she had a brand new house, earning little to nothing. And I just remembered her working these two jobs and being like, fuck, this is really something. And I really need to do something with my life because it was really tearing me apart at that time. Like my parent, my mom was basically looking after me and my father. So, you know, seeing that, that really had a profound effect on me. And I was like, okay, I need to really start doing something with myself. So as I said, I was working with Circus City and I was like, okay, I need to really start doing something with myself. So as I said, I was working with Circus City and then I ended up working for UPS.

And in that time, I was in a music group with these three guys. We were called Sockeye. I think that was my first hip hop group. And we met, I can't remember how we met, but we met. And then something happened with one of the guys from the group. And we were like on the cusp of like really doing big things. We were working with these guys named Matt Flavor out of Dallas who subsequently ended up becoming tied up with Erica Free who later ended up becoming Erykah Badu. Wow. But that's another story in itself.

But looking into your story, poking around the internet, there's some music out there. Oh yeah, there's a little bit. I was like, what is this? I didn't know about this part. Yeah, there's a little bit. So ended up doing this thing. We ended up calling ourselves X Factor,

become really, become kind of, you know, godfathers in hip hop in Austin. I mean, what was the hip hop scene in Austin at the time? I mean, at that time, there was a guy named DJ Casanova who was at this place called Catfish Station. And there was like Overlord X, who was a very well-known guy. But it wasn't really breaking ground like it should be or it should have so obviously me being who i am i come to austin and then i started befriending these guys in this skate shop called blondies they're in this place called barton's creek square more square

more and i go in there and i'm like hey do you have the philly blunt t-shirt that was the rage back in new york in the day and they were like no and i was like well you should really get into that and then from there it spanned a relationship and i would hit them the stuff and they would bring stuff in they ended up moving out the mall and moving on this place called Guadalupe, Guadalupe Strip, which is right by UT. It's the hub of where everything is. And you're the guy who's telling them what's what. Yeah, right.

Okay. So then I form a friendship with a guy in Tower Records and he's handing me stuff like that's like new and upcoming and I'm getting all these so I'm becoming like a street promoter so then I start street promotion for like certain labels like loud records big beat um several different hip-hop def jam that led to me starting bringing groups into Austin, Texas. Then I started working at this club called Emo's. Emo's at the time was a very punk rock venue.

And it was where everyone was going. Like Gizzy from the Butthole Surfers used to hang out there, right? The Reverend Horton Heat would hang out there. Like the 930 Club of Austin. Yes, exactly. So everyone was hanging out there. I mean, to this day, there were so many people who I met, like Danzig. I would work like neo-Nazi.

Like skinhead punk dudes. Yeah, skinhead punk dudes right so i had formed a relationship with this guy named chris tommenago aka sweetener and me and him ended up becoming really good friends and he was the promoter and then there was a guy named dave and then there was emo and um i had formed a relationship with these guys and then these guys knew that I was in the hip-hop circle and running with these skate guys. And from there, we all formed a relationship, and we were like, they're South by Southwest, but South by Southwest is predominantly white. It's predominantly cowboys and all this other type of music. Like alt-rock.

Yeah, alt-rock, exactly. Let's get some hip hop in there. And we formed up, and when people didn't want to house hip hop because they thought it was going to be too rough, they thought it was going to be gang activities, we were like, well, let's bring it to the punk scene. You can't get no more punk than hip hop. And the punk scene embraced it. And from there, you know, one of the guys who was booking shows there was a guy named Dave who'd worked for South by Southwest. And then I knew this guy named Andre who I managed to bring them two together. And thus that created kind of the genesis

of what we kind of see in hip hop and South by Southwest today. Because at that time, no one really wanted to take a chance on hip hop. But there's a few guys who were like, no, fuck that. We're gonna make a scene and we'll do it through the punk way.

And then not only did the punk boys really love it, the skate boys really loved it. And then through there, I met these two dudes that became my guys in bringing hip hop groups to Austin. Now, here's the caveat. They were ecstasy dealers. And they had relationships with all the strippers in town. And that's how they made all their money. I'm putting them on blast now. They're going to laugh because they're going to know the story.

But I ran with these cats who were just, they were ahead of their time. As far as like the, you know, marijuana and ecstasy, they were getting kind budding and all this good bud when it was just like dirt swag in in austria yeah so i'm running with these dudes and these dudes were basically like you we'll pay you to bring these hip-hop dudes in the town and let's make big shows and we did it and then that caught the eye of South by Southwest. And they were like, okay, you have the power to bring these big groups in. Let's make a showcase. And I remember one of the first showcases that was really big was 95, 96, where we brought RZA.

And at the time, that was when RZA had Gravediggers. Gravediggers came through, Exhibit, Big Pun. I remember doing one of our first shows with The Roots when they were first coming out. And then that just grew. And then the next thing you know, Austin became a hub for not only alt rock, country, you know, all different types of rave music.

It was really becoming a hub. And then South by Southwest grew, and it grew. And by the time I left, it became like a mega machine. What's interesting about that is that you could have, I mean, you were having success. You could have just doubled down on that groove, that lane that you'd established for yourself and become like the king of that scene in Austin. Well, this is where the next story comes in.

So in that time of partying and smoking copious amounts of weed and um you know just i was living kind of a crazy lifestyle because i was working circuit city i was working ups i was working all different types of hours i had an amazing girlfriend at the time who was in- You're still working in Circuit City while you're doing all this. Yeah, I'm still, oh yeah. Yeah. Still doing all this stuff, right? Had an amazing girlfriend who was a photographer at the time. Her name was Alexa. And she was like in the hip hop scene also. And, you know, I was just a part of the scene. But then what had happened was because of all this partying, because of all this excessive back and forth, I got really sick.

And that's what kind of led to me finding vegetarianism. So I met this guy named Etienne at UPS, who was like the super yogi at the time. And hopefully he gets a chance to listen to this because I owe him a lot. This guy was ahead of his time. He was a Sproutarian. He was the guy that hit me. And I know you know this book really well. The Guide to the 21st Century, Victor Kavinskas and Dick Gregory.

You remember that book? Yeah, yeah. So that was my, he basically gave me that book. And I remember one time walking out of work and he was like, Huck, your belly is just out of control. You gotta do something, brother. You've blown up too. Yeah.

You were getting fat. Oh yeah, I was like 260 270 pounds i was like greasy like z the whole nine yards that was just like a mess and um he was like bro you need to change you got to change and no sooner than he said that, about two months later, I was lying in bed, bleeding out of every orifice out of my body. And I was like, I need to do something. And at the time, there was a paper called Austin Chronicle. And on the back, there was a free acupuncture session. was a acupuncturist, free acupuncture session. And in that same week,

I had gone to the Chinese restaurant right down the street from my house and found a card for Kung Fu. And the guy who practiced Kung Fu lived a block away from me. So all these things were coming into play. This confluence of events, the universe is signaling. The universe is signaling, right? And I love the fact that like the original guru mentor

is this sprouting UPS guy, right? It's almost like out of a Dan Millman book or something. Yeah, truly, truly. He was a Rastafarian who was a Spartarian, a connoisseur of herbology. He knew all the things, gotu kola, dandelion, the whole nine yards. Ital. And would break it down. He's getting you on the ital.

Ital is vital. Exactly. Right? Uh-huh. Right? Uh-huh. So keep in mind, I was a Sunni Muslim at the time that had kind of flirted with Nation of Islam and 5%. And then I meet this Rasta. And then I totally just go through this 360.

I give up alcohol. I start doing master cleanses. And then before that, I go to this acupuncturist. And keep in mind, I had been having irritable bowel syndrome. I was having heartburn, everything for the previous like two years, I would say, two to two and a half years. But it came to a head. So when I came to this acupuncturist, I took stool samples. I was a guinea pig for Zantac. No one really isolated the issue. Within five minutes of me being with this acupuncturist,

he was like, you have busted your ileocequial valve, you have major ulcers, and if you don't change your life, I'm gonna give you seven to eight years tops. That's heavy. You're talking to a 21 year old now. And he was like, I'm gonna give you seven to eight years tops. Wow. You have diabetes that runs in your family,

you have high blood pressure that runs in your family, you have all this stuff that runs in your family. If you don't change your ways, you're not gonna be around. And you are able to hear that. This cat was this white boy Buddhist who was about to go to China to convert, to become a full Buddhist.

And I was one of his last sessions before he went to go do this. And you kind of skirted over it quickly, but I think it bears, you know, taking a minute to talk about the fact that behind all of this, you've always been a spiritual seeker, right? Like you were raised Christian,

then you just mentioned that, you know, you were Muslim. You've had these various incarnations where you've dropped in on these, you know, a wide variety of different dogmatic, religious approaches to life. So that was always there, right? Yeah, it's always been there. So what is that seeking sensibility all about?

And where do you think that comes from? I wasn't satisfied with Christianity for one start. start that was this i was you weren't down with the church no i was not mate and i love you mom but you forced me into that i won't lie to you you know hardcore jamaican parents that are like you you know, I wasn't, when I said I wasn't baptized, I was like, get in there. So, you know. But then the other, but then you have the Rasta guy. Oh, man.

Different flavor of Jamaican. Yeah. But then let's, and then you had Islam too, right? So the Islam piece was really deep because, you know, being sunny in England and then coming over here and then being immersed in black nationalists, that black nationalist movement and the nation, and then the 5% nation that was really radical at the time. The bow tie, Farrakhan.

Yeah. And then, you know, you had like the brand Nubians and the, you know, the poor righteous teachers and, you know, all along the hip hop circles. But it was just a form of, for me, it was a form of me finding myself. Because you got to remember, I got raised in all white England. I had black family and black community, but I was really never part of a movement. community, but I was really never part of a movement. My father was, my father got to see the Hansworth riots and the, you know, the Brixton riots and the Tottenham riots. So he was part of that, but I wasn't. So then coming to the States and, and seeing the plight of black Americans and black culture on a whole,

I identified with it. So, and then the kind of religious connotation or the spiritual connotation through Islam, it taught me a sense of discipline. Through the 5% Nation, it taught me a sense of knowledge and to study. And many people go to schools of theology to study all these major religions. And I studied this myself.

No one told me to go pick up the Torah or to go pick up the Quran or go pick up the Bible. It was a 5%-er named True Power Allah who was like, study Empire Strikes Back, study Return of the Jedi, study the Peaceful Warrior, study the Tao Te Ching, study all these books. And a differentiator also being that distinct from just esoteric kind of theological ideas,

this was very much a get your shit together. And, you know, what kind of man do you want to be in the world, which you needed. Yes. Yes. So all of that. So when you say, when you, when you ask about seeking, I was seeking myself out. I was really seeking myself out, but seeking how to become the person that I am today. I didn't know it back then, because I was still dipping my toes in the spiritual world, but still being a householder and still trying to do all the things

that were cool and still hit. But also a willingness to continue to iterate and grow, right? Like, when something stops serving you or you see a new idea, you strike me as somebody who's always open to that as opposed to just becoming entrenched in one way. Yeah, I think that's a big Aquarian thing. I get that a lot from other Aquarians or people.

You're an Aquarian, because we have this innate ability. The seeker. Yes, exactly, the seeker. So I'm not just resting on the fact, okay, Kung Fu's cool. Praying madness is cool. I wanted to go deeper. And that's when I went into the Tai Chi. And that's when I went into, you know, the Taoism. And, you know, the rest of Faraway amazing because rest of Farai really taught me how to eat, how to look after my body, how to look after my temper.

That was such a great component. And meeting Etienne, who was this character who was doing African Angolan capoeira. Oh, capoeira is cool. Oh, yeah. So you got these cats. It was a crew, right? There was a crew of cats. I had my crew that were kung fu.

I had the crew that was Angolan capoeira. And we were doing music, but we weren't of that lifestyle anymore. So I had kind of renounced a you know, a lot of people. I kind of shut a lot of people out. The strippers in the XTC. Yeah, and all that stuff. It wasn't me anymore. To the point where a lot of people, when I came back into the scene, they were like, are you on crack?

Because I had lost 100 and something pounds. I now had locks. I had this big old beard. And I'm talking about doing fast for like 20 days right i'm talking about being a sproutarian and a fruitarian and you know doing wheatgrass shots when i used to do shots of jaeger and and you know what other shots so it was um it was a deep, deep time. And in that time, I found Kung Fu. There was a woman who owned an herb store in town, and she took me under her wing. And I tore my meniscus, and I kind of healed it myself. And I would go to the herb store. She would give me herbs to rebuild my knee. I started going to the bookstore

and studying yoga. And I had books of yoga, so I started doing yoga myself. And then, lo and behold, I found Tai Chi. And my teacher, Sifu Hughes, who is an amazing teacher. If you're ever in Austin, you want to learn about Kung Fu or Tai Chi, he's the guy, along with my brother, Thomas Leverett. These guys were instrumental in me finding Tai Chi, finding the Eastern arts. And there was a time when my girlfriend broke up and then I had this house to myself and this house became the dojo. It became where everyone came and I had a futon, a seat, my records, a Kung Fu movies out the Yahoo, at the yin yang and a pull-up bar and a bed. And that was it. At the yin yang and a pull up bar and a bed. And that was it.

And all the homies came over and we would read, we would drink tea and we would study. That's crazy, man. This was back in like 97. So it starts with Kung Fu and acupuncture basically, but then you kind of blossom from there. Yeah. So what is it that you're learning specifically in Kung Fu and this introduction to Chinese medicine that gives you a sense of belonging and direction?

It was this, it was like an aha moment. It was like, because I was so enamored with Kung Fu, right? And obviously at that time, you know, Wu-Tang was really big and they were talking about it. And then you had cats like Jeru. And then you had other cats that were coming in the scene. So there was a lot of, you know, again, hip hop is closely tied to a lot of the stuff that was going on. And I'm looking at the landscape and I was like, wow, there's a lot of black folks that are doing different things and entering different spaces and not so much cultural appropriation, but really acknowledging the East and how,

you know, that Silk Road came from Africa or, you know, and through China and they were very closely connected. So I started seeing that there was a very close synergy between African culture and Eastern culture. And I really started delving into it. And I just knew how much... At the time, there was a real big Shiatsu school in Austin. And my friends, Thomas and Claudia, became chefs there. They went through the macrobiotic school of training. And I became really, I saw the power of macrobiotics. And I was like, wow, this is amazing. And then with Kung Fu and learning how to make your own remedies,

did Dejao and Dejao is a special concoction that a lot of martial arts use whenever they bruise themselves, sandbag training, metal training. You rub this ointment and it heals you. It's based from Taoist lore and it's been passed down through generation to generations. So learning stuff like this and learning the herbal culture and then adding all this knowledge that I'm seeing, I'm like, this is something. So then, as I said, me and my girl break up. My mom and dad are in Orlando. And I'm like, you know what, they're getting older.

And I don't want to be in the same town. I don't want to be in the same city as this woman. And I have a lot of history here let me go and be with my parents and go study chinese medicine study eastern philosophy yada yada and originally i was going to go to acupuncture school but i was not making enough money uh-huh um even still working still working ups and circuit city but the bands the bands weren't, you were done with that at that point? No, because I was kind of, at that point, I was still fraternizing with music,

but I didn't really feel it like that anymore. It wasn't doing it for me. What was doing it for me was learning about the arts, learning about, you know, because I really wanted

to become an acupuncturist. I really wanted to be on acupuncturist. I really wanted to be on some Matula Shakur type business. And for all the people out there who don't know Matula Shakur is, Matula Shakur was part of the black nationalist movement in the 60s. And I want to say he was Tupac's uncle. He was one of the first acupuncturists, black acupuncturists in the States. Oh, wow. And was real revolutionary

for bringing acupuncture to the hood. So I was so enamored by that story. I was like, this is the guy. Right, because this is not the purview of the black man in America, right? Right. I mean, it sounds like you were creating your own scene. Yeah.

And it's interesting how music is sort of a catalyst for this. Like when you're recounting your story, I'm thinking about HR from Bad Brains and kind of the impact that he has had in a similar way through his music and advocacy and how many lives he was able to touch and change. You're having a kind of analogous experience to that,

but there aren't a lot of examples of black men who are pursuing a path like this. Yeah, not a lot. And funny enough, sidebar, I used to hang with HR's road manager in Austin, Texas. Oh, wow. Way back in the day. So that's my connection to HR.

Funny enough. Yeah. Did you ever come across John Joseph from the Cro-Mags? No. And it's funny because we all know kind of the same circles. But John's story is similar to yours. I mean, HR took him in and sorted him out. And he went down his own wellness rabbit hole that's kind of similar to yours. I mean, HR took him in and sorted him out and he went down his own wellness rabbit hole

that's kind of similar to your story. Yeah, yeah. I've got a feeling we're gonna meet each other very soon. Yeah, I think so. And we also have a very mutual friend and hopefully the ancestors are looking after him as we speak, David Clark, who transitioned. Oh, right, you knew David, I didn't know that.

Yeah, yeah. David was a very good homie of mine. But anyway, so with all that being said, I was really enamored by, you know, Matula Shakur. enough, in Orlando, I ended up befriending his first student that ended up adopting the program. Wow. Was that random or did you know that that person was there? It was random. So, yeah. So, I'm going to go to Orlando. The hotbed of acupuncture and culture. It was so surreal how we met. And this was later down the road. And I ended up having a really, her name was Dr. Akia Zula, amazing woman.

She was one of Dr. Matula Shakur's very first students and practiced acupuncture. I don't know if it was, I want to say it was Harlem. But her and Dr. Shakur practiced acupuncture for free in Harlem when acupuncture was not looked at in a very good light, especially with black bodies doing it. So to have her, I've met a lot of and been taught and been brought under the wing after, under a lot of people.

She's definitely one of the people that I hold in high regard because she was able to share stories with me of those days and how hard it was for black bodies, not only to bring acupuncture to a level of prominence, but to show and prove why it was effective and to show and prove why it was effective to black folk who definitely weren't looking at acupuncture. So, having her and meeting her was amazing and instrumental in my life. But at that time I wanted to be an acupuncturist

and I didn't make enough money. At that time, I wanted to be an acupuncturist, and I didn't make enough money. So I saw a program that was at this massage school that was all Eastern body work. They taught Shiatsu, they taught Tuina, they taught five element theory, and they taught Tai Chi. And I was like, I'm going to that school. So that's what you did. So that's what I did. Yeah. And I moved to Orlando, and I moved in with my parents for the, I'm teeth time.

I've moved in with my parents so many times. But how old are you now? Like 25 or something? Yeah, I'm like 25, 26. It's not like you're 42 years old or something. But so I ended up moving in with them. And yeah, I went to college. And then this guy, Dr. Sean Oldham took me under his wing.

And for that, it was a speed program, which they don't do anymore, but it was like a six month every day and night program. You learn, was it 200 or 500 hours of massage and then X amount of hours in traditional Chinese medicine, theory, yada, yada, yada. I had some amazing teachers, but this teacher, this guy was amazing in the fact that he was Buddhist and he was my first vegan that lived a monk life, but that was a householder that really lived it, lived it, lived it. Uh-huh. And yeah, I studied with him right before he moved to North Carolina. He got a practice in North Carolina. At the time, he was one of the world's leading pediatric acupuncturists, where he was just like working on kids with major, major problems. And he was

world renowned. And he taught me Tai Chi. He taught me so much about five element theory. He taught me so much about acupuncture, acupressure, and then taught me this other form of martial arts called Bagua. So I got immersed into the internal martial arts world where I just became immersed. And in that time, I kind of found music again. And I had met some guys who lived right down the street from the massage school. And then I started working on my first album along with going to massage school. Wow.

Well, Chinese medicine's no joke. I mean, people spend decades immersed in that, trying to get a handle on it. My buddy Colin went to the, I don't know the name of the school here in Los Angeles, but he's a doctor of Chinese medicine now. But I mean, it was like he went to medical school. It is.

It was very, very intense. And then I would go and get acupuncture with him because as a practicing student, I could get it for cheap or free. For next to nothing, yeah, exactly. But then the kind of mentor, full Chinese doctor would come in and oversee it. And then he would do the thing where he takes your-

The pulse. The pulse, you know, and they're like these masters of touch and feeling where- There's like a hundred ways of- For 50 years he's been doing this and they can tell you everything about your health from putting their thumb on your- Yeah, isn't that amazing?

And then you get some wacky herbs, you know, on the way out. Bro, I can tell you some stories, I can tell you some stories. I can tell you some stories. Like the one time when I'd finished massage school, I don't know if it was, it was so weird. I had these lesions on my arms that just came out of nowhere. And I don't know if it was stress or what, but it was traditional Chinese medicine. And I remember being in a bath of different wacky herbs

covering these lesions, but it worked. Yeah. I don't know what it was, but it worked. And those guys that can do the pulse thing, they're wizards. They are absolutely amazing. And as I said, there's like over a hundred ways of reading pulses and they can tell you basically,

they can tell you, oh, you were eating too much dairy when you were like five years old. I know. Right? I know, and you're like, come on, man. Where's the scam here? Yeah, where's the scam? And like this dude, as I said, you know, the dude who I went when I first

initially went through my stuff, doctors had been trying to figure out what was going on and didn't know what was going on. Within five minutes, he knew exactly what was going on. So does anybody at some point say, come on, man, like pick your thing. Is it gonna be Kung Fu or Tai Chi or massage or acupuncture? I was a widow anyway. You're exposing yourself to so many different traditions.

Like how does that all synthesize and synergize? Like do you have, and on top of that, all these different kind? Like, how does that all synthesize and synergize? Like, do you have, and on top of that, all these different kind of philosophical, spiritual, religious, you know, notions are swimming around in your head. Like, you're like a mishmash of everything, right? Like, does this congeal into some kind of universal theory? You know, how does that work? You know, it was so, at that time, I didn't really even know what I was doing. I was just in it, just living life. You know, again, I come back to it, you know, coming from Ipswich, there's not really, it's like coming from like Bifalo,

somewhere outside of Texas or, you know, it's a small town, you know, there's stuff happening, but who would have thought that I would have thought about acupuncture and I would be immersed in Rastafarianism and 5% and eating frigging sprouts, learning how to do my own broccoli sprouts in my cupboard. You know what I mean? But at that time, I was just more like, how can I be a game changer? How can I make lanes for myself? And that's why I really got into the Eastern philosophy and the Eastern arts, because there wasn't a lot of black bodies doing it. And I was really enamored by that. And I saw that there was a spiritual connotation to Africa and to the motherland. So I was able to, you know, with the knowledge that I had, I was able to come back and be like, okay, well, this comes back to this and this relates to this.

So there was that. And then you got to remember, I was really sick and all of these things that I learned were healing arts. And then on top of that, there was a period of time where I was a rough cat, and I was beating people up, and I was slapping people for fun, and it was, that's not me. So coming to the healing side was really grounding and was really fortifying for me. And then the knowledge, you know, was this, I felt like it was this making me a better person. So the more I seeked and the more I'd learned, the more I could just like help more people out. And because I realized

I had seen where I was and and and the all the help and all the guides and all the people that helped me get my way not only could I be a game changer I can actually help people being a game changer yeah so my thing was I wanted to be different I wanted to be different I didn't want to be just, this guy from England who came over and is this, you know, lost in a shuffle. I wanted to be somebody who is going to make a name for myself. And I didn't know to what capacity. And my parents will always say to you, you know, he always wanted to be something or wanted, but it was, I just knew. and especially from that time, seeing my parents, how hard they worked, how hard and diligent they've done in their life.

I wanted somehow to pay it back to them. And I wanted to go through the steps to show that I'm working hard to get there, but to show that I can make it and somehow pay it forward sooner or later. The path wasn't go to know, go to medical school or go to law school. You had to go on this crazy inward Aquarian journey

to find yourself and become an integrated human being. And what's cool about it is how heartfelt and organic it is. It's not like, oh, here's what I'm gonna do and it's gonna get me to this place. Like it was just like a relentless pursuit of personal growth and whatever flavor you could find it. And you have this thirst for it. And that all kind of like sated you

and got you to this place where you could be of service. But that idea that behind it all, you had some knowledge or understanding that this was gonna lead you in the direction you were meant to go. Most definitely. Yeah. Most definitely.

So you're scrambling though. Like you can't be making more than minimum weight. Like how are you even paying for all the school and everything? Like how are you even making a living? I'm literally working. I was literally that stereotype. There's a stereotype of the West Indian man or that dude who worked like four or five jobs.

And I was that dude, right? I literally was that dude. I was working like four or five jobs. I was teaching massage because at this time now, I had graduated and the guy at the school loved me. I got on really well with all the teachers. So they brought me in to teach what Dr. Sean Oldham taught, which was five element theory because, you know, I was under his wing. So then I started teaching Tai Chi.

So then that led to, you know, me making a name for myself within the city with Tai Chi. And I started learning with several different teachers, Sifu Kent Howard, who was a bargois specialist, this guy, Sifu Lowly, who was a Wu stylist, who was a Wushu stylist. And then I met Wang Sifu. And Wang Sifu was an old guy from Shanghai who no one knew about. You had to basically know somebody who knew him in order to learn with him. And Wang Sifu taught on a rooftop in downtown Orlando.

So I knew this guy named Paul, who we did some martial arts together. And he was like, oh, you're really into Tai Chi. You need to see this guy, but you're going to have to come to a couple of classes because he's not gonna just let you in. He's like the Miyagi wizard. Yeah, yeah. You get permission. It's all very cinematic on a rooftop. It really was.

It really was. And for any martial artists out there, you know there is a certain thing that is called the indoor circle or indoor society. And it's basically when you get to a certain stature in your martial arts practice, where you get invited into certain sects. They have it in Anise where they,

or the Filipino martial arts, they have it in the Japanese martial arts where it's closed off. You can only get initiated. You just, you get a tap on the shoulder one day. Basically. And this was my tap on the shoulder. And that was really another chapter

because at that time, there was a place called Garden Cafe in Orlando that was a restaurant that was ran by Taoists. Real, legit Taoist monks. So at that time, they had known that I did Tai Chi and know that I was immersed in the arts. And they were like, come to the holy house, come see what we're all about.

So then that started me down a rabbit hole of Daoism. And I was initiated in this holy house, in this Taoist sect while doing Tai Chi. So, you know. It's like religious spiritual vertigo. Oh my God. Getting over here, man. So, I mean, I told you, I got some stories.

Yeah. So in this time, I'm learning Tai Chi with this Tai Chi teacher on a rooftop learning four or five. I would go see him twice a week, Tuesdays and Thursdays, and we'd study for four or five hours. End up drinking Chinese rum, reading Chinese newspapers. Paul would smoke Chinese cigarettes. And we were just immersed in this life. And then I had Taoism.

So, you know, Taoism. You're just getting it from all sides. All angles. And I'm still messing with the rosters in Orlando because I still got my locks, yada, yada. So I'm still, you know, I'm still with everyone, yada, yada. So I'm still, you know, I'm still with everyone, yada, yada. So I meet this girl who I ended up marrying. And then my life takes a different course, man, you know.

Chapter 11. Yeah. My life takes a different course. And then I get married. Well, we date. And soon enough, I have my first child. It was a very, it was a whirlwind romance that got very serious very quick. And, you know, the caveat was, it was a white girl and, um, you know, a lot of the, a lot

of the community didn't feel it. And, you know, I was a bit, I was kind of blackballed in, in, you know, the kind of Afro spiritual community that I was in. Oh, wow. That's interesting. Yeah. It was, it was, it was a Yeah, it was a really deep time. And yeah, I had my first kid. At the same time, I had just put out my first album.

Uh-huh. And what are you, 27 or something like that? 28? No, at this time, I'm like just turned 30, 31. And the music is going really well. and the music is going really well. And, you know, I'm starting to make moves. We start talking about tour, and then my girl is like, put that shit on hold, mate. That ain't happening.

And, you know, I have a great relationship with my ex-wife now, but having a kid, not knowing that person and not really solidifying a relationship like you're supposed to was rough. So having my first child, I learned the rough way of fatherhood. And then, you know, God, my first child was 16. So then four years later, we have another one. Two daughters. Two daughters. And then she got real. And all the spiritual practice and all the Tai Chi was still there.

And I was still doing the Tai Chi, but the spiritual practice and everything kind of went away. And I really started getting into householder lifestyle. And, you know, my wife at the time was very traditional in the aspect, like, you're going to work. You're going to be the breadwinner. I'm going to stay at home and look after the kids. And, you know, just seeing how my parents were, I was like, okay, this is what I signed up for. And, you know, the one thing about having kids that I always envisioned was that kid is always going to be around me no matter what. So now I have two.

I'm working three jobs. I'm working Whole Foods at the time. Massage envy. And I'm teaching. So I'm teaching, I'm massaging, I'm working Whole Foods. But no more five-hour rooftop get-togethers. That kind, yeah, came to a halt. It was like, no, you got to be a father. So, you know, becoming a father, becoming a householder, and, you know, no knock on my ex, but she was not spiritual.

She was an atheist. And, you know, having been kind of blackballed from a certain community and then having a wife that was not spiritual, where am I now? Yeah, identity crisis. Big time, big time. So, you know, life happened. This became, you know, the guy who was the white picket fence man, right? We had dogs, we had the minivan, I was working three jobs.

That was my life. And, you know, I remember one time, you know, I had all these dreams and aspirations of going to Ethiopia, going to Mexico, going to Costa Rica. And I had all these dreams and aspirations of doing all this stuff, you know, teaching Tai Chi or, you know, teaching some type of spiritual what have you, right? All that shit went away. Now my life is relegated to becoming a householder, just becoming, you know, the pictures of Ganesha, the pictures of Buddha, the pictures of Malcolm X,

the pictures, all of those things were going out the house. It was toys everywhere. So in our last house before the big D, I had a room, right? So what I didn't talk about was I have a big vinyl collection, like a monumental vinyl collection, right? And then I have a pretty big book collection that has spanned with me all the way from Ipswich,

all the way to Brooklyn, all the way to Austin. It's traveled with me everywhere. So I had this room that was literally like my record room and it was literally like my sanctuary. I'd put all my spiritual stuff, everything. It was like a little room in this big old mansion that we used to live in. a little room in this big old mansion that we used to live in. And yeah, this thing went from bad to worse. And we just fell out of love. And my next kid came. I had one more child

named Layla. And so I have Naya, Isla, and Layla. And Layla came, and Layla came with a broken hip out of the womb. So that was, there's a lot going on, right? Yeah, that's a lot. That's a lot. So, you know, we're having to take her to John Hopkins, and she's having to get her, she's having to be in the cast up until nine months old. So, you know, we're looking after two kids, taking them to school, yada, yada, She's having to be in the cast up until nine months old. So, you know, we're looking after two kids, taking them to school, yada, yada.

And then we have this one here. So keep in mind, my ex was a triathlete up until we met. Then we had kids. She put on weight. And then she rediscovered the gym again, lost all the weight, and became this badass gym rat, which was detrimental. Because you're resentful that she's able to find a passion and invest in that. And you feel like you don't have that privilege. You got it. You knocked it right on the head, right?

So there's so much stuff going on. She's going to the gym every day. I'm here. They're going on Disney cruises. The kids are all going on Disney cruises. They're living the best life. They got the best life. They have no idea. We got a big trampoline.

My parents are paying for, you know, my parents did so much because they knew I was only one person. So they were paying for groceries. They were like, you know, we don't want you to just, you know, we know it's a lot. I'm paying for two cars, a minivan, you know, the whole nine yards. And you got three jobs going. Three jobs going. So, you know, I'm resentful. So in that time, I started seeing running.

And I don't know how the conversation occurred. I was starting to lose weight because she was losing weight. And I, my body- Did you put the weight back on? I put it, it was kind of fluctuating back and forth, right? Throughout the years, it fluctuated. So at this time, I was about 220, about 250, 220. Tai Chi is not keeping the weight off.

Tai Chi is not keeping the weight off. So I get my jump rope, I used to love jump roping. So I get the jump rope out and then discover kettlebells. So I'm doing kettlebells. This was before CrossFit became real big. The homie Thomas, who is my Kung Fu brother, ended up becoming one of the first guys to do CrossFit in Texas. So he told me about the kettlebell. So I was enamored with kettlebells and I started doing kettlebells,

jump rope. But I needed to cut it a little bit more. So she told me about running. She's shredded right now. She shredded. She used to be a triathlete. She did an Ironman right before my first one. Right. So she was like, yeah, you should try running. Well, that's good.

Maybe that's something you guys could do together. Well, we did. And then that didn't work. That didn't work. That didn't work. That didn't work. So then I got into barefoot running, right? Because when I get into something, I go into it full hog.

And I'm looking at the spiritual aspect, yada, yada. So then that was when the Vibrams were the big thing. So I get in the Vibrams. I get into the barefoot running. I'm studying the Kenyan running and yada, yada, yada. Then shit hits the fan. People are dying. Had within the space of like two, three years,

10 people died. My marriage is going to shit. And ultimately the marriage is done. In that time, I lose the house. I lose my kids. I lose my kids. I lost that life. Some shit happened at the end. And here I am with basically-

Meeting yourself. Yeah. This is- Great dismantling. Yeah. Yeah. You're protecting yourself. Yeah. This is great dismantling.

Proch. Yeah. This is your, what my wife would call your divine moment. Yes, yes. And I know you've been there. I mean, a version of that. I think it's very relatable. I think a lot of people, if not most people,

have some version of this happen in their life. In retrospect, I'm sure you look back on it now with gratitude as a catalyst for everything that has happened to you since. But when it's happening, I mean, I can't imagine anything more painful, like your whole life getting pulled out from underneath you. The levels, and it's funny

because I just watched the podcast with you and I can't remember the guy's name, but you talk about old stories, right? And how to rewrite to make new. And I look at all these things in the past of where I've come from and what I've done. And, you know, I was joking before coming in here and I was like, you know, how did I even get into Rich Roll Podcast? I don't have a story.

You have an amazing story. I'm like, I'm not worthy. But now after kind of listening to it, I'm like, okay, you do have a little bit of a story. And I'll tell you this, like as fun as it is to have, you know, Aaron Brockovich and Edward Norton and all these really cool people come in here, I have to say like my favorite part of this job is finding people like yourself who, I mean, you have a profile and people know who you are.

It's not like you're anonymous. I mean, you're a public figure on some level, but to be able to put a microphone in front of you who has such a worthy story and so much wisdom and try to amplify that, it gives me, that's the stuff, man. So for me, this is like the sweet spot of the podcast. And I'm grateful to have you here

because I think you have an amazing story and so much wisdom to share. Thank you, thank you. I'm honored, Rich, honestly. And that place of just being broken and lost and confused, despite having this incredible background and education and all these various spiritual techniques and traditions and feeling inept or unable to leverage that for your own personal wellbeing in that moment, I think speaks to how hard all of this is.

Yeah. You know, even though you knew all that stuff, you're still suffering. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, that's gonna be in chapter 50 because that's what you said there is so beautiful and it's so reminiscent of my life and and and even up till last week even with Conrad and even the same sentiment still came

into play there's so much beauty in suffering there's so much beauty in suffering and i and i know it sounds so it's not cliche but it's people are like scratching their head how can you suffer how can there be beauty in suffering when you go through the suffering that a lot of us have that have been on the show that have become successful is because when you go through that suffering, you go through such a darkness, you go through such a bottom feeder kind of exposure that you learn to have gratitude for the smallest thing. The smallest thing. And when I think about the times when I didn't think that I was going to really make it out of that space,

to really make it out of that space. There were times, Rich, when I would be in the car park of Whole Foods, like crying, crying my heart out, screaming at the top of my lungs, looking around like, how the fuck did I end up in this situation? One of the stories that I always tell people, and it's a story, but it's a story that I often tell people because mental health and suicide is so big. And I know in this day and age, it's being amplified and people are talking about it. But when you hit a certain level of suffering and you think there is nothing else, you can look back at these times in that darkness and be like, man, if I didn't know the depths and the levels of darkness, I wouldn't be able to enjoy this moment right now. So there was a time when I used to pack a gun with me everywhere. Orlando used to be, and Orlando still kind of has a very,

you've got the Disney side and you've got the super rough, like home invasions, like they'll come and run in your house. They'll shoot you in the middle of Walmart. That's like Florida, right? Right. Sometimes I pray for my kids still out there, but still. You know, Florida is a state where you have your stand, your ground law. So you can come into somebody's residence and they can shoot you on self-defense. And that's it. It's called stand your ground or the castle law. Which is interesting in light of what's going on

with Breonna Taylor right now. Yeah, right. And then also you mentioned to me that the cop who put his knee on George Floyd's neck now is living down the street from your daughters. Or was living down the street. Yeah, from my kids. Yeah, in Florida.

That's insane. Yeah. Which is, that's a whole nother story in itself. But, you know, just to bring it back to this, that was such a dark, dark time. And as I said, you know, for me, I used to pack because where my parents live, it's not a rough neighborhood, but there was a lot of home invasions. There was a lot of breakings.

My parents are old. And again, remember I told you I had to move back in with my parents? Well, after couch surfing and yada, yada. Back in. My parents had to. After the divorce back in. Bro, 37, 38. So this is the umpteenth time of moving back with my parents.

But if I didn't have, you know, my relationship with my parents now, I used to be scared of them. I used to fear them. I used to, now they're like my brother and sister. The relationship is amazing. And this was partly the reason. I'm not going to say my job. This last thing with my parents and for them to see how broken I was was really, really deep.

And to cry with your parents is even deeper. And I don't know if you've ever had that, but when you're in the presence of your mother or your father and you are legit all crying in despair, it's a hard, hard pill to swallow, man. And it was. And it was hard to come home knowing that I lost everything. And it was hard knowing to come home that I had three kids that I'm still paying for, that I'm still paying for their school. I'm still paying for everything. And I can't talk to them

because she won't let me talk to them. So all this stuff is going down. Meanwhile, I'm still paying for the house. I'm still paying for the minivan. I'm still paying for all the extracurricular activities. And I'm at home at my parents' house with a shotgun underneath the bed. Crying in the parking lot of Whole Foods.

I mean, did you have a sense, you know, this idea that you can't be a Phoenix without the ashes, right? Like this idea that you're being burned for a reason, that there's a purpose or that there's something to be mined and learned from this experience so that you can emerge more fully integrated. I mean, with all of this spiritual education behind you,

you must have been able to hold on to some aspect of that or to believe or to choose to believe that there is some kind of purpose or lesson to be learned here. I did, but it was very little in the grand scheme of things. It was very little because although I had the running that kind of took me out of that space, right? Because I would run and run with-

Running was then, that becomes your new healing. That becomes my new healing mechanism, right? So I had the running that became my new healing mechanism and I could grab onto that. And I still had my spiritual faculties, but I wasn't leaning onto them as much as I could. So in that inner room, I had my friends, you know, I had a really good, I have a really good girlfriend of mine. Her name is Christina. My ex-wife's name, Christina, my best friend was Christina at the time. Christina was the first person that I went to when I got essentially at the house and I was couch surfing. She looked after me basically for two summers because I was broke.

She looked after me for two summers along with my parents and really kind of helped me get back on track. And then, as I said, you know, because in that time, I had probably contemplated suicide four or five times. And the one story that I was trying to bring up, and I really bring this story, was the story was me in the parking lot of Orlando Zen Center. A friend of mine, Sandra Bianco, love Sandra. Sandra was the one who said, you need something. Come to the temple. At the time, I didn't know what the temple was. She said, come to the temple.

I was like, okay. So I drive up there and I've got this big Springfield 45 next to me. And at the time, I had just got off the phone with my ex. We had just gone into a major argument. She's asking for more money for the house. I'm literally just, like, shaking, and I'm just shaking uncontrollably. And I'm like, do I just do it right now? I'm looking at the gun.

I'm in front of the temple. I'm looking at the gun. And then I'm like, all right, fuck it. I'm going to go do whatever this fucking thing is. I don't know what I'm going to get into, but I'm going to do it. whatever this fucking thing is. I don't know what I'm gonna get into, but I'm gonna do it. And that ended up becoming my, that could have been my last day on the earth.

And instead I chose to sit in front of a wall in silence for an hour and a half. That's heavy, man. I wonder how many people show up at a Zen center with a gun contemplating suicide. Yeah. Wow. And that's what led me to, you know, subsequently, that was really when I was literally crawling on the bottom like i don't know if i can make it

that was kind of like the ladder that was like yes you can and i went into that i went into that um i went into that sangha or what in in buddhist term we call spiritual community. And I remember having my first Dharma talk with the abbot. Her name was Claudia. She was a white bodied lesbian. And she broke it down for me. So real and raw as a Zen Buddhist does. Because you never get really, anybody who knows about Zen Buddhism,

you never get a straight answer. Yeah. You gotta go- It's always confounding. Yeah. I mean, on some level, really anybody who knows about Zen Buddhism, you never get a straight answer. Right, yeah. You gotta go. It's always confounding. Yeah. I mean, on some level, did you walk into that thinking, come on, man, like I've done, I've been into Taoism, I've been into Rastafari, I've done all these things. Like, what is this place gonna teach me

that I don't already know? I really did. Yeah. I really did, I really did. And especially when it was nothing but frigging all white folk in there i was like oh really white people pretending like there's so i'm like oh really i was like okay and those people ended up becoming my saviors like you would not believe and there were some young folk in there and then ended up

seeing more diverse crowd. But at first it was just like, what am I getting into? And then they're chanting in Korean. And then there's this big bowl and there's this huge Buddha. And then you're having to sit in front of the wall. But that was so liberating. In Orlando. In Orlando, in Orlando. In Orlando. It still freaks people out.

You're not in San Francisco or in... No, no, in Orlando, off South Street in Orlando. And I ended up coming out of that. So I'm not gonna say like Buddha under the Bodhi tree, but it was near enough. It was near enough. And I just came out of that and I was, it was powerful.

Came out of that meaning your first session or after you'd spent? That was the first session. It was that quickly that you started to feel relief. It was that deep. It was that deep. It was so profound being in silence for an hour, hour and a half. And then to talk to that abbot and the words that she left me,

because I gave it to her. I was literally like I had nowhere to turn. Like this was it for me. And she was like, I don't know if it's gonna be it for you uh-huh but you're gonna realize sooner or later if it really was like fuck you right so uh-huh i left out of that um I just came out of a relationship. Um, and I was, uh, you know, I had a friend who had just died not too long back. I just got out of a serious, serious relationship. I thought this girl was the one boom, boom, boom. And at the same time I had a friend that we had conversed and, um, I just had a liking to her on Instagram, right?

So lo and behold, this relationship that was just based on a friendship ended up kind of growing. And she was Buddhist too. So at this time, I'm finding so much love and compassion in this Zen center that I'm just, it put me on a projection. And in this projection, I start meditating. Then I start meditating every day. And prior to this, meditation wasn't part of your- I had kind of put it under the rug because I was just dealing with real shit. kind of put it under the rug because I was just dealing with real shit.

Meditation was there, but it wasn't really in the way that I was moving now. Because meditation was there and I would meditate, but it was like, this ain't working. It just won't work. Because I would still have contemplations of doing what I needed to do in order to off myself or this ain't working because if it did, I wouldn't be in a situation I was, right? But then it became my solace. So now I've got meditation and then I have running. And I still have my friends here who were looking after me and kind of giving me advice and telling me you are going to make it.

But it was really these two. So then these two suddenly started coming together slowly and surely. And then I started really seeing the power because now I'm starting to feel good about myself. If I can make an analogy of like a Gumby, you know those things that are doing like this in the... So I was just flat. Now I'm starting to get air pumped in me. So now I'm starting to learn about compassion. Now I'm starting to learn about equanimity.

Now I'm starting to learn about discernment in its highest regard. Now I'm learning about all these koans that are kind of interweaving and I'm starting to use these koans in my life and I'm starting to see things change. And now I'm going showing up to court or showing up to these mediation battles with compassion. Now I'm dealing with my ex-wife with compassion. Oh, you don't want to let me talk to the kids?

I'm good with that. I know it's going to happen because I'm doing good things. I'm paying bills. Even though I could have stopped and said, I'm not paying this. I'm not doing this. I'm not doing this. I was like, I'm going to do it. And then I started showing up to certain things. And I started showing up for myself.

And then that confidence started building. And then my parents started seeing, like, they started smelling the incense coming out of my room, right? Because I'm burning, like, four or five incenses at a time. They're seeing, like, you know, the mat out in the middle of the living room. Or, you know, they come in from my mom's doing a walk or my dad's out in the garden and he sees me, like, chanting. So this is becoming real now. And now they're seeing it at work, because now my 15-minute breaks that I would be going in the bathroom crying, because I'm leading a team, like one of the biggest teams. I've become a global all-star for Whole Foods,

the nine yards. I'm still breaking down, crying in the middle of my work sessions. But now that breakdown is now me meditating in the break room. And now other people are seeing me meditate. Now they're asking questions. And then that was like the phoenix starting to get his or her you know wings back and then all this hate and resentment and aggression started transmutating right so all those base metals started changing into gold slowly but surely and then i met this woman. And she's like, come to LA. Never been to LA in my life. And at this time, I'm still working. Now I'm working four jobs. Now I'm still working Whole Foods 40 hours a week.

I'm working massage every 25 hours a week. I'm working lift like 10, 15 hours a week. And then I'm just doing odd jobs here and there for the homies. So it's like 80, 90 hours a week of work. And then in between that, just your practice. I'm just my practice and my running. And are you able to register or calibrate

in your own mind the changes that you're undergoing or did you become? So there's a thing in the recovery community where you don't feel like you're making progress and it's only when it's reflected back to you from other people because you can't see it on a day-to-day basis and you don't feel like you're making progress and other people will be like, you look different or you're holding yourself differently.'re looking me in you know in the eye in a way that you weren't three months ago exactly

exactly and all of that started happening all of that and um it was just a change i had a really good friend named Zach who is, he's like my, he was like ETN, but in the Florida version. All right. And he lived in a place called New Smyrna, which is right outside of Orlando. And he was like, he was like a monk house. And I would go visit him on the weekends. him on the weekends and it was just really great because i would have a spiritual brother who was locked in just like me and we would meditate together and just hours and hours we'd cook food and just talk and that was so good for me because in this time now, you know, all this stuff is happening.

Now I'd started seeing my kids and I would get them every other weekend. So, you know, one of the biggest things was how do I support my kids on such minimum? You know, there would be times I would have to save, you know, $10 to $20 just to make sure that I had enough on the weekend to make sure that I would look after them because all my money was elsewhere. Wow. So, you know, that was really good, but it was really good because I started becoming a parent. I was a parent, but I wasn't really a parent. I was a parent because now there was no ex-wife telling me what to do. It was me holding my kids. So I had relationships with all of them and it was rough and it was hard for them. It was hard for them to see me in such a sunken state. But as the Buddhism evolved, I started evolving as a human and it started making the relationships with them even more pliable and more tangible.

And then I was teaching them the things that I was learning. And at that time, you know, you're teaching a little 12-year-old that at the time my oldest one was 12, and she was like, what the hell are you talking about? My eight-year-old is like, Dad, I just want to watch Peppa Pig. I could care less what you're doing. But they started to see a change in me. And, and, you know, my daughter now is so in the know now that we can have these conversations and talk about Buddhism and, you know, all the stuff that's

happening, but, um, they had to see it. And, and as I grew, um, I started having more confidence in myself and started realizing that let's get back to that spiritual faculty. So then I grew. And as that practice grew, the running grew, then I found Aikido. And at the time- Because you don't have enough going on, right? Come on, man. I need a new modality. Yeah, new modality. So I found a keto. So a keto was amazing because I'm going through the Zen Buddhism and we're going through a keto

and boom, boom, boom. So then I meet this girl in LA and she just rocks my sock off. She flies me out here and we have this love affair. You met her on Instagram? On Instagram. So we have this love affair, right? But here I am.

I'm still a householder. I'm still, you know, I'm not really cool, right? I'm not cool. I'm still wearing dad jeans. I'm still, you know what I mean? I'm still, because I can't still you know i mean i'm still because i can't afford anything i can't afford you weren't you weren't rocking like all the fly shit no not at all not at all i'm like you need to take me shopping you gotta sort out my closet because

you gotta go on i see we were we were joking during the shoot we were talking about our daughters because our daughters are about the same age. And I was expressing my challenges and trying to connect with them. And you're like, dude, my daughters don't think I'm cool. And I'm like, if your daughters don't think you're cool, we're all hopeless. No, no, no. It's funny because I get people DMing me like,

dude, your style is, I'm like, my daughter is like, your African man gown is killing me, daddy. It's killing me. What does she want you to wear? Who knows? What could you put on that would impress her? Well, you know, it's funny because now it's, when I look back at what I was rocking and now she's like rocking the white Air Force ones in the car hearts and the stuff like that but you know it's it's so funny how you know i i'm not cool i'm not cool on any on any given day i got news for you dude you are cool not to them i'm not yeah but um so so, I wasn't cool. And here, to give you a background, my girl, Melinda, she's an X plus size model.

She's a fashionista. She is like, you know, she dated models, she dated rappers, the whole nine yards. So I'm looking at this woman and I'm like, what does she even, how does she even see me? I'm this dude in Orlando working at Whole Foods. Exactly. I'm working four jobs.

I'm not cool. At this time on Instagram, I was, you know, I'm posting records and talking about my life going through divorce. People ain't really messing with me for style and running and all that stuff. But she was like, no, you're amazing. I want to kind of kick it with you and yada, yada. So that formed, that relationship happened. So hold on a second. Clearly, it's a vibration that you're

putting out, right? And that vibration is a reflection of all the inner work that you've done. Yes. Like that has power and potency. Like that is a real thing. But if she was sitting across from me right now and I was to say to her, tell me what it is that you saw specifically in Hawk at that time, what would she say?

I think she would probably say, I saw a power that he didn't see that he had in himself. Exactly. Yeah. She would probably say that. I saw a power and a light that he didn't see that I saw. And I got a credit. I mean, I tell people all the while, that's my business manager.

That's my lawyer. That's my, you know, when you, and I know you have a strong, amazing wife, so you know. And we talk about this in therapy because that's another thing that was a game changer for me was therapy. But we talk about this all the while, like she is legit like the first woman that I have ever been with that has made me feel that I can achieve and do anything in all of its totality. The first. And probably kick your ass too. And kick my ass at the same time. That's the best combination. Yeah.

It's not the easiest. It's not best combination. Yeah. Not the easiest. It's not the easiest. It's not the easiest. But what she has done for my life has been nothing short of amazing. She is one of the reasons why I can say that I'm sitting in front of you today because she gave me that red pill to say that you can do whatever the fuck you want to. And it doesn't matter that you're in Orlando. And it doesn't matter that you're working all of these jobs, yada, yada. If you want it, you can have it. It's all up to you. But I can tell you that you're going to get it and I'm going to help you get it. So something really major happened between me and

my ex and I'm in Orlando and the relationship's great. Running's great. Buddhism's great. The martial arts are great, but I'm still not where I'm still working for jobs. I'm still not making the money that I'm, you know, child support is coming out of every paycheck. I'm barely cutting the mustard. And then something really cataclysmic happens that really offsets my whole being with this divorce and yada yada. And I made the decision, and it was such a hard decision to leave my kids in Orlando. But I wasn't getting anywhere. And in order for me to be the best person that I had to be for them, I had to leave.

I had to leave Orlando. There had to be people who thought I had to leave. I had to leave Orlando. There had to be people who thought that was the wrong thing to do. Oh, dude, I would say probably 80 to 90% of the people who were in Orlando said to me- How could you leave your kids? How are you gonna, how to, I mean, my parents were devastated.

My parents were devastated. They didn't really have a relationship with my ex-wife anyway. So for them, they were like, I'm never going to see my grandkids again. And then for my younger one, the two youngest, it really didn't really affect them, but it affected my oldest one, where she really didn't want to mess with me. And that was a pivotal part of her life, right? She was 12 years old, I think, at the time, 11 or 12. So it was a pivotal part of her life. And she'd seen all the stuff that had gone on in the space of me and her mother being divorced. They'd gone through a lot as kids.

And then here you are now, your dad's about to move to LA. And then on top of that, I have all these people telling me, you're not gonna make it, it's super expensive, you're working four jobs, how the fuck do you think you're gonna make it in LA? Right. Right? Where the rent's 10 times what it is in Orlando.

Exactly. So I come to LA and it was rough. That first year was really rough and I was just trying to navigate myself and then I'm still going through the heat of the divorce because the divorce is still going on. And then I'm meeting this woman who I'm madly in love with, but we never lived with each other.

And then we got a stepson or I got a stepson now. Oh, wow. So you go from Instagram love affair. Did you just move in with her directly? Yeah, directly. And then you're a stepdad. And then I'm a stepdad. Holy shit, dude.

Right? That could have gone all kind of crazy ways sideways. It could have gone all kind of crazy, all kind of crazy. And, you know, there's so many sidebars with, you know, her previous marriage, divorce, how rough it was for her, you know, and the thing that I love about my partner is that she has her own story of abuse and yada yada and her resiliency her resilience and her power and her coming into this and as rough as it was the first year um we both had came out of so many damaging detrimental life-changing situations that we were like no this is going to going to work. So then I met these crazy kids in Koreatown called Koreatown Run Club. I ran with a whole bunch of different crews in town, but I met these guys, Koreatown Run Club. And at the time, you know, run crews were a thing in LA, but not as big as New York. Yeah. Not at all.

Not at all. It's not like bridge runners or black roses or anything like that. Wasn't like that. Yeah. It's still not really. It isn't. But you created a thing. I don't. Go ahead. All right. I'm going to shut up. I wouldn't say created, but so then I met with these cats and I started running with them and I loved what they were all about. And then months go by and then they realize that I do Tai Chi. They realize that I'm into mindfulness and meditation, yada, yada. And at that time I was, I'd come to LA. I wasn't really uh immersed in the zen i'd kind of gone into insight and there was a group of crazy cats by the name and i'm sure everyone knows them especially if you're in recovery against the stream and noah levine and uh dalma punks right so i came to la and melinda is already

part of that crew already so then i came in and then what really what i really loved was there was buddhists that looked like me i mean legit look legit look like me, black, tattooed, who were like teaching Dharma. And I was like, I'm into that. That's what I'm into. And you are speaking my language. So then I met Joanna Hardy, who is one of the leading black body Dharma practitioners in the world. And she came, she was basically Noah's right hand. And I just really just took a liking to her. And I just really loved what Insight was about. And then I started reading books on Jack Kornfield and Arjun Char and the whole Thai forest monks. And then I started learning about Vipassana

and then lo and behold, Thomas and Claudia, who I'd known for years, were doing Vipassanas too. And I was like, Vipassana, this is... Now I found it. I was like, okay, this is a real deal. Oh, you have to spend 10 to 14 days in silence with no phone and follow precepts and yada, yada. And you can still look like this and still be black bodied and still have tattoos. I was like, let's go, let's go. Because as much as I love Zen and I love Zen Buddhism and the Zen philosophy, it's very whitewashed. I'm not going to, you know, it's very whitewashed.

And, you know, the thing with Buddhism is, is that we're coming into a new state of Buddhism now, where you are seeing a lot of diversity. You are seeing a lot of BIPOC showing up. You're seeing a lot of the alphabet, LGBTQ, you know, indifferent. Everyone's coming into it now. Whereas back when I first was messing with Buddhism, there wasn't so much of that. So you're seeing the Ruth Kings, you're seeing the Joanna Hardys, you're seeing the Lama Rod Owens coming out of this, where they're bringing a radical space of Dharma into this space of Buddhism now. And that was what was really attractive. And remember, as I've always said, I've always wanted to be kind of a game changer.

So being with this crew, and then being with this Koreatown crew, I was like, how am I going to really make a name for myself in LA? And how can I really bring all of these worlds together? So these guys were like, do you want to become a captain? I was like, yeah, why not? They said, if you're going to be a captain, bring your own twist to being a captain. I was like, okay, you sure about that? Like, yeah. And then they threw me another caveat and they said, and then we want you to teach Tai Chi to runners and i was like you're giving me this bone too you're fucked up now i've been waiting my whole life i've been waiting my whole life for this

right are you still doing the the vibrams thing no no no no no i gave those up i'm nike boy now i'm like give me the four per%, give me the next percent, whatever. So, and that was the real cool thing about running with KRC was because they had an association with Nike. So, I was able to be part of a capsule for the Nike Epic Reacts. I was able to do all these really cool capsules. I was able to do all these really cool capsules. And in this time, one of the really co-conspirators of KRC making the group as it was had passed away. And that really did a lot for running and the community.

So in that, I want to say this was right before the LA Marathon 18. These guys had said to me, we want you to become a captain. So then what had happened was I was like, if you want me to be a captain, I want to bring mindfulness because that's my bag. I want to show the power of meditation and how you can use, how running is a meditation and how you can use mindfulness in that space of running. And then that blew. Yeah, the intersection of mindfulness and running was,

I mean, how long ago was this? Oh God, this was, I mean, it had been going on, but 2018 was when I really started implementing it. Yeah, so not that long ago, but 2018 was when I really started implementing it. So not that long ago, but that's right when those two worlds were starting to intersect in a meaningful way. So it was almost like a right place, right time thing for you.

And you had this like robust, you know, decades of experience leading up to this. And you're just, you're like perfectly suited. But I still had imposter syndrome. I still had imposter syndrome. I still had imposter syndrome because I'm in California. I'm in LA where there's everyone. You know what I mean?

You've got the Dana Santos, you've got the TCC foods, you've got every, you know, you've got all, you know, you had a few big runners, you know, my friend Marquise, you had the Noels. And then you started having, you started having luminaries coming into LA. You started having the Noxys coming into LA now.

You started having people started taking, oh, this is what LA is about. You had the Blacklist. Blacklist is a really big run crew out here. And then you had KRC now. Is Blacklist the one that's downtown? Yes. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, but then KRC had this big Nike Epic React shoe. People had started knowing about Kathleen through run crew culture.

And then lo and behold, oh, you're doing mindfulness and running now. So then you had people from Korea, Australia. then people started coming and doing articles on the crew and then articles on me and how i was bringing this intersection of mindfulness and running so before you know it um i went from being this kind of small-time crew captain to now I'm on a magazine in France. I'm on a magazine, you know, spiritual run gurus of LA or, you know, the world. And then I had this company, this Tempo magazine from Australia came out. They did a whole bit on KSC.

Then they came out and did a story on me. So then the next thing you know, I'm getting podcast requests. from Australia came out. They did a whole bit on KSC. Then they came out and did a story on me. So then the next thing you know, I'm getting podcast requests. People are asking, oh, come on this podcast. And then I'm doing little pop-ups of mindfulness running collabos. And then these group of crazy Mexican brothers call me and they're like, hey, we love what you're about.

Do you wanna come run in Chiapas and teach mindfulness to runners? And I was like, yeah. You'd never run on a trail once. Never. Yeah. Right. And here I am in the middle of chiapas running in the jungle

and that was like but but you know it was i i was looking at these guys the guys named era libre and um it's mao and emmy and danielle and i looked at them and I was like, wow, these are really, some really interesting characters. And you probably know, Noxy had did their first run. Right, I do know that. Yeah. So.

I mean, you and Noxy, it's very, you know, there's a lot of overlap. Yeah. And kind of what you guys are about. Yeah. And then you add another one into the mix you got charlie dark from run them in london he's another component of that so so you had these

guys named air libre and they're doing this thing and they're talking about spiritual running in the wilderness and i'm like okay so we started this internet conversation. And the next thing you know, they're like, we want you to come to Chiapas. We want you to leave this thing in Chiapas with us. I was like, count me in. Never been to Mexico. Never been, you know, hadn't even, the element of traveling was so thought foreign to me. Like eight years ago, my parents had given me money to redo my passport, my English one and my American one. And I ended up spending it on the mortgage or something like that. Because my ex-wife told me a long time ago, if you're thinking about traveling, it ain't happening. You're a stay-at-home dad.

That's all you need to think about. Well, the other thing that's interesting, unlike Knox, you're not out crushing it on the track or on the road. You're not out standing on the podium at ultras or anything like that. You're a middle of the pack dude. Had you even run a marathon? Yeah, yeah, I'd run one marathon. One marathon, okay. So the balance like that, it's really tipped toward the spiritual side and the education side of this.

And it's not about like the running pedigree other than the fact that you're like a running enthusiast who loves running and running culture. It was deep because I was really like, you know, I was fanboy to Noxy and Charlie and all these guys. And I was just like, wow, they got run crews. And they're like, you know, I'm looking at Noxy.

Noxy is like cross country champion when he was 14. Right. And, you know, you got Charlie who started running when he was like in his late twenties. And now he's like running New York and Boston. And I'm like looking at these dudes and here I am, I'm a middle of the road, like eight, seven 30, if I'm good, you know what I mean? A mile running a mile. Um, you know, I'm, I'd run maybe a trail here and there, but I'm running the streets. That's what I was, you know, I'm running 5Ks

and 10Ks in the streets. I'm running in the heart of gritty Korea town at 10 o'clock at night. That's what I'm known for. That's what I was really known for, like city running. Like, did I have dreams and, you know, dreams of grandeur of running Boston and New York. Yeah, I did. But then what had happened was, was I started seeing an evil side of running. I started seeing like how people were like, really like, you're not even getting paid to really be putting yourself through all these rigors to be like-

Just the ridiculous performance that's out of it as opposed to the pure enjoyment and healing properties of it. Like this is something, we didn't even go into it, I don't think enough, how instrumental running was and helping you get through the divorce and the experience, like what that did for you, just the ability of being able to put on a pair of shoes

and go outside and be with yourself. Liberation one-on-one. When you talk about liberation, you're talking about complete freedom, mind, body, spirit, soul. And that's what running was for me at that time. That's what running still is for me. And that's what I try to impart in people that it's

bigger than running. You know, that was one of the biggest. So I did a capsule for Adidas and they had reached out to me and they were like, can you kind of, you know, show and prove how running really helped you? So I was able to kind of, in a mini frame, explain my story. And one of the biggest things that I still use today, to this day, is that it's bigger than running. Running is the vehicle, but what comes out of it? And a lot of us are either running away from something or running to achieve something. And when you add the spiritual component in that, you realize that it's not about the medal.

The medal is nothing. Oh, you ran Boston in two hours and 50 minutes? Not to discredit those about that life and who want to do that, more power to you. But there's something that is so much more deeper when you run. And for me, as much as I was trying to chase that goal of, you know, sub three and whatnot, you know, sub three and whatnot. I didn't, I didn't, um, give up on that. I just saw that there was a different angle to that. And I started seeing that there were other people who saw running in the same way, but it's more spiritual. There was a spiritual essence and component of running. There is a dynamic aspect to running when you are able to tune the mind because it's really a form of mental gymnastics. It really is a form of meditation in

itself. And when you take away the watch, take away the garment, the suntu or whatever, and you just run a long piece of road. It is this you, your body, your breath, and your spirit, and lastly, your mind. And your mind can either dictate you and tell you, oh, I'm not going to make it a mile or two miles or 20 miles or 70 miles. going to make it a mile or two miles or 20 miles or 70 miles, or you can put your mind as the co-pilot and have that synergy with your mind and work together and get to that finish line. And that's what I was able to do in the aspect of taking the mind and letting the mind dictate and tell me, no, Hawk, you can't do this, you can't do this, and took the mind out and used it as a vehicle along with my body and then put it together with my spirit and made a cohesion to where now I say it's bigger than the running

because there's so much more value in the run. Now I can find and answer questions. I can answer questions on my own life. I can break down, okay, why is my marriage not working? Why is this not working? Okay, I can do this to make better sense of how I talk to my child. Oh, this is a different factor. Just taking the earbuds out, because that was another piece. I used to run with music, and factor just taking the earbuds out because that was another piece

i used to run with music and then i took the music out and then i started listening to the birds and then i started listening to my breath and listening to my feet on the concrete and then that's when it made sense and i was like ah this is why they come hand in hand. So beautifully put. It's about the relationship with yourself, right? And irrespective of whether you're winning races or coming in last place, what did that experience of putting one foot in front of another teach you about who you are

and who you can be? Exactly. And I think that does get missed in our culture of biohacking and GPS devices and the like. When we strip it all away, like I'm in the process, like you went from the barefoot to the 90s. I'm kind of going back as I never went through the barefoot phase

and I wanna feel what that is like. And I'm trying to retrain myself to run in that way. And I'm leaving the garment at home and I'm just going out stripped down, like full analog. And you feel naked at first. You're like, well, it doesn't count if it's not on straw, but all of that. And it's like, well, all right,

well, what is that discomfort about? Why do I feel an attachment to that? Like, what is that telling me about my ego? You know, where is the lesson in humility here? How can I be more connected to my environment and to myself? How can I tap into a deeper sense of wholeness and oneness with everything? And that's really what running is about, right? You just hit it right on the head.

You hit it right on the head. Whether you're in Koreatown or you're in the Santa Monica mountains or in Chiapas, that is available to everybody. And I heard you say this in another podcast, like it's free. Yeah, you gotta buy the shoes, got to buy a pair of shorts, but then after that, it's free.

That's it. And again, when we talk about liberation, what is liberation? It's total freedom. So it goes hand in hand. It goes hand in hand. And I think, you know, you said it. We do take it for granted.

And, you know, I'll be the first one to tell you, you know, I used to live and die by my garment. I used to live and die by it. You're wearing it right now. You know, it's like, oh, my God. But the only reason why I'm wearing it is because it's a watch. I'm not even looking. And it looks cool. Well, it does.

It does. But, you know, Strava, I can't tell you the last time I made a Strava update. It just doesn't, you know, I have it, but it doesn't serve the purpose like it used to. Because now for me, you know, even when I was 13,000 feet, old me would have been like okay I gotta you know I gotta time this and I gotta man I was just in it just to smell the air I was just in it just to do the damn thing and just to feel the experience and to find that beauty in the suffering right um and I think that's why you know you're gonna have schools of thoughts in running. You're going to have those who are like, you know, you're going to have your Noxies.

You're going to have your Charlies. You're going to have your Tim Ferriss's. You're going to have your Marioli, your Mario. Exactly. You're going to have all these different casting characters within running. But we all serve a different purpose. My purpose is really just to show, one, anyone can run. Two, Black, Indigenous, people of color have every right to be in running spaces

just as much as anybody else does. Three, that there is such a powerful spiritual component within running and that it is actually a great tool for mental health and for you to reclaim your sense of mental clarity. And lastly, it just feels good. And it is such a great tool for tuning the temple. It's karma yoga for your body. It really is. Just like you do karma yoga when you're cleaning your house,

it is just the same way you're doing it for your body. You're just doing a little bit of karma yoga for your body. When you look back on this crazy trajectory and now you are this, you know, you are a running influencer, a mindfulness influencer who gets flown, you know, to crazy places to hang out with super cool people and talk about the things that you love. I mean, there has to be a little bit of like pinch me

to the whole thing. Like, how did I get to this place? I mean, you has to be a little bit of like pinch me to the whole thing. Like, how did I get to this place? I mean, you mentioned imposter syndrome, but on some level, like, you know, I feel like you're owning it, right? And when you look back and think about that time that you're sitting in the parking lot at Whole Foods and crying in your car,

you have to know that like there was this, maybe not a plan, but there's a thread, like there's a through line, there's a theme to all of this that have led you to this place. And yes, when you look backwards, it's always 2020. It looks like everything, all these experiences that you've had have created this like incredibly nutritious soup

that has contributed to you being, you know, the person that you are, like the only person actually who can like do what you do. Like you have this unique vibration and expression to, you know, the advocacy that you share with everybody. But how do you like think about that? That's a really good question um man it's you know i think for me

it took me 46 years to get like you know i i i i do have those pinch myself moments like um i was just talking to brian levine from 10 000 who they told me to give you a little wink yeah yeah i love those guys um you know i was just talking to brian yesterday and um he was just like, you know, just so great to have you on board and, you know, what you're doing for running and this, you know, you've really. And I had to really just look at myself and just like, man, is he talking about me? And, you know, even just talking with Conrad last week and we were having this deep conversation. And here I am, am like I just finished watching Meru uh-huh I just finished watching this guy like you know literally be a be a superhero dude yeah like he's hanging off a freaking cliff like you know just eating couscous on a cliff

for like something crazy like 17 days And here he is this like telling me it was such an honor being in your space. And I think about those times when I was in that car park. And I think about the times when, you know, I think about the time when I told my parents that I was living in the hell that my dad made, like crying, like, are you fucking kidding me? role, having calling Conrad Anka, my brother, having these stories and having these people that have all played major roles in my life, all the way down to HR's road manager that I spent the crazy time with. The guys from to the curb that fueled me paving the way to get opportunities to be in South by Southwest and even up to now, just the fact that I'm having conversations with specialized bikes on how to- Yeah, we didn't even get into like the whole cycling aspect.

Yeah, we haven't even gotten to the cycling thing. This is the next iteration of what you're doing. You know what I mean? So, I mean, you know, cycling, mountain climbing, running, you know, teaching at Spirit Rock last year. at Rock last year, being asked to, you know, teach Tai Chi in a place that is the home of American Buddhism, to teach with, you know, to have somebody like Jack Kornfield following me, to have, you know, it's this, if you'd have told me this eight, nine years ago when I was working four jobs and thinking to myself, there was no way that I'm going to be in situations like this, or there would be no way that you would tell me that I'd be running up a volcano in Chiapas, that I would be on a record of one of my idols at the time,

this guy named Stick from Dead Prayers. Oh yeah. And then I'm on his album. That's pretty cool. At 46 years old. Yeah, fellow vegan. And I'm talking to my 16 year old and we're just talking about life.

And I told her about the situation, me being in Wyoming, and she was the one who told me to do it. There's these things. I, one, I bow in humility a thousand times over. bow in humility a thousand times over. And there's a saying that nice guys always finish last. That's bullshit.

And it's bullshit in the fact that you can be a good person. You can be a good person and live your authentic life if you just do the work. Just do the work. And we are in such a cookie-cutter society where people don't want to do the work. I had to do the work for X amount of years, and I had to go through so much suffering. So, yeah, it looks good on the gram. Now I'm like, you know, I've got my shea butter legs. You know, I've got the freshest gear on.

You know what I mean? I'm hanging out with Rich. I'm hanging out with Conrad. I'm hanging out with all these luminaries. But you don't know what it took to get to this point. It took a lot of hard work. It took a lot of years of thinking that I was a failure, thinking that I couldn't make it to now where I just, as I said, I, you know, I, I talked to my plants. I sage my, my, you know, I sage my girl. I sage me. I sage the house. I, I do these rituals where do these rituals where I mess with my little sound bowl

and I meditate and I just give thanks, man, because I really just, I paid into my karmic bank without even knowing it. Yeah, well, I can hear the gratitude and the humility is unmistakable and it's so inspirational and empowering. And I think one of the things that strikes me the most about your journey is the fact that you're like a product of the prophets that walk among us, right? The anonymous prophets who are everywhere. When you're a seeker and you're able to identify them

and avail yourself of what they have to teach you. It's not like you said, I wanna learn a keto or Tai Chi or yoga or acupuncture. And I'm gonna travel to sit at the feet of the world master. You found these people in your community. You just bumped up against these people in your community. You just bumped up against these people and you had an openness and a willingness to say, I'm going to check this out. And, you know, through a thousand iterations and versions of that, you know, it kind of forged you

into the person that you've become. And I think what's instructive is that, is the fact that, that these people are in our communities, right? Like you're in Orlando, you're working all these jobs and you were able to find these people and carve the time out to learn and grow. And it was slow and it was hard and you got fucking crushed, you know? And you leveraged that experience to just deepen your commitment to your spiritual practice. And your faith was tested, but you've persevered. But it's really just a product of showing up for that experience, right? Yeah.

And keep on showing up. I mean, I don't know where this chapter is going to lead. There's so many different chapters to this book. And I, and I, and I think as I, as I listened to myself and as I reflect back on all these journeys to where I'm at now, um, humility is a really big piece. It really is a big piece. And, you know, somebody had asked me the other day, what is your purpose? And I just said this to be a good person. I, you know.

And what does that mean to you? Like, how do you define that? Being a good person. I mean, you know, I could go through the precepts, you know. The eight-limbed path. Yeah, I could go through the precepts, you know, yeah, I could go on and on about that. But I mean, realistically, it's just to treat people how they are supposed to be treated, to really amplify those who don't have a voice, to really speak for the justice

or the injustices of the world. Being that I have a voice, being that I have a voice that can orate my words pretty clearly and very well. There are many bodies, black bodies, indigenous bodies that don't have that capacity, who don't have the space to do that. For example, just the fact that to climb on the side of a mountain, there's black folks who have probably never even seen the bottom of a mountain. But what I can do is show that, yes, you do have the right, you have the ability, and you have the tools to do that. You have the tools to do that. So, you know, something that, just to bring it back full circle, when I talk to my parents now, they're proud of where I've come.

And it's not even so much on a monetary level, it's just to know where I came from, what could have happened, what may have happened and to what is transpired now has been this for them to say how happy they are, knowing that they could leave the surf at any time and that I've made them somewhat proud. My kids, same thing. You know, I have conversations with my 16 year old, like every day, Rich, and it's like so empowering. Whereas four years ago, she didn't want to talk to me. She didn't want to talk to me. And, you know, and here we are with this, this woman named Melinda,

who was the same person who was like, be patient, Hark. She's going to come back around. The same person who was like, be patient, Hark. These opportunities that you're looking for are going to happen. They're going to happen. Having people like that. So, you know, I, you know, humility again,

is there such a big piece, gratitude, the actual practice, because I think people get caught up in the glamour and the glitz and the face value of something, but they don't understand the inner science and the inner mechanism of it. And I think coming into spaces like this and having an opportunity to talk to you, because I realize that I have a privilege, just like Myrna was talking about it. We're so blessed to have this privilege where we have publications that we're on, that we have these podcasts on. But you can bet your bottom fucking dollar that I will amplify me, this color, this culture to the tenfold. Because I've been given that platform.

You feel that responsibility. I do, I do. The ancestors would be ashamed if I didn't. Yeah, and so how does that translate into how you think about and communicate around what is happening in America right now. Like as a black man in America and somebody who has been studying

these various spiritual traditions for a long time that inform how you respond and react and talk about what's occurring, I'm interested in how you process all of that. I mean, we're in this incredible moment of upheaval, of social activism, of civil rights and civil rights violations. And I would imagine you wake up in the morning

thinking long and hard about what is the right thing for me to say? Like, how do I fit in here? And what is my responsibility in terms of how I communicate and channel these spiritual principles? And how does that meet or gel with what's expected of me in this kind of crazy moment, like what I'm supposed to say.

Yeah, and it's a great question, Roach. That's such a great question because, you know, like just this morning I woke up and, you know, the first thing I post, one of the first things I post is this young brother named Toby Ngiwe, I think his pronouncing is Arrest the Killers of Breonna Taylor. And that was one of the first things I posted. You know, it's one of those things where it's tiring. It is tiring. And it is very exhaust, exhausting, having to explain over and over. And I'm not saying just in this situation, cause I love we're talking about this but just in general the the the landscape of

the black experience and the black black culture is that we're tired and you know i don't want to get on a uh on a kick because i've read some of the comments on youtube with past people who talk about black lives matter and some of your people are like not having it. They're not feeling it, but. Hey man, you know what I mean? Those people can say whatever they want, you know what I mean? But I hear what you're saying. Like I got that same sense from John Sally. He's like, I've been around this block so many times, man. Yeah. It's, it's, it's getting to a point where we, yeah, I mean, it's, it's, it's tiring, exhausting. It's, it's very, you know, to watch a dehumanizing of a race of people on a regular basis. It's, there's a two, there's a two way street because I feel like

There's a two-way street because I feel like there's a renaissance, so to speak, Chadwick Boseman, but, you know, with Chadwick, with the, um, the Michael B. Jordan's, the, uh, the Jonathan, uh, majors that are coming out, these black actors that are coming out, you have, um, black scientists, you have, um, black scientists, you have black Broadway actors and actresses, you're getting so much blackness in its purest and most beautiful form, really in the public eye and lens and being showcased. At the same time, you're seeing the degradation and the dehumanization of black folks in this country, the mass shootings and so forth. And how I've been able to navigate it in my space is something that a black body that I know, Dr. Reverend Angela Kyoto, who brought out a pivotal book not too long back called Radical Dharma. And again, with Dr. Lama Rod Owens, this brought out a book, Rage With Fire.

You know, I'm leaning on a lot of my contemporary peers and people like Joanna, I'm leaning on them because I'm seeing how they're you know, navigating in their spiritual spaces, the Dr. Ruth Kings, and even going back to the James Baldwin's and the Fred Hampton's and, you know, just going back and studying George Jackson, Soledad, brother, the writings from him. I'm having to really realize that I do have a voice. And, you know, I'll be the first one to tell you that I'm introverted, but I have a big mouth. Okay. I do have a big mouth. Okay. I do have a big mouth. But I do feel that when you hold yourself in such a spiritual order,

you have that rod, right? You have that stick that's holding your back up, that's holding you in front of the masses. That's like, I have to show up. I have to show up in my spiritual sense. At the same time, as much as I want to smash every racist asshole in the face, that's not dharmic of me. That's not going to work. So that's where the middle path comes in. And Buddha always talks about the middle path, right? That is where you're not just going full force in the asceticism, but you're not just being lackadaisical and being like, oh, well, Buddha will work it out. You have to meet somewhere in the middle. And I think my middle is really

engaging my community in their spiritual practice and telling them, don't lose sight of your spiritual practice because it is what has got you here. It is your foundation. It is your way of holding yourself accountable and holding your spiritual discipline accountable. At the same time, let your voice be heard. And let your voice be heard in a way that you are attacking the system in a different way. So if that means protesting but doing a silent protest, then go ahead and do that. If it means attacking the system and attacking it from a different way, from a social justice standpoint, using your means of social activism as Instagram or Facebook or stuff like that, doing it on that medium,

or being out in the streets and educating, you still have to have somewhat of a foundation. And that's where I feel like my Buddhism is my spiritual foundation on top of my activism. So even though there is Dharma there, it is radicalized because I am mindful that there is stuff of the world happening. I am mindful that the Breonna's, the Freddie Gray's, the Ahmaud Arbery's, the George Floyd's, all these atrocities are happening. So what I have to do in my own capacity is educate those who are not educated, at the same time educating those who are educated in a different way, teaching them a different way of attacking it.

And at the same time showing them that you can still be spiritual as fuck and still be woke as fuck at the same time. Right, maintaining your equanimity, not being reactive, but sort of channeling your inner Jedi and just standing in your strength to speak from a place of experience and wisdom,

but also with some level of kind of distance or dispassion so that you're not getting caught up in a bunch of fucking craziness on Twitter or whatever. Exactly, yeah, yeah. Because you've seen that and we've all seen that. We've seen that, I we've all seen that. We've seen that. I'm not going to name names, but I've seen those who were somewhat on that mission and on that like, no, we need to do this, we do this. And then something came out about them or somebody saying something, and then they're looking like a total wally.

And their purpose and their mission has now been clouded because of something else that happened. You know what I mean? So for me, I've been really, really, really mindful of how I really play my part and put myself in certain positions. and put myself in certain positions because there is a war going on outside. And my stance right now is to be both the sword and the shield. So if Malcolm was the sword and Martin was the shield, then I'm trying to be that balance. Right? Because I still got Malcolm in me and I still got a little bit of Martin in me, but I want to bring that together.

So for me, I feel like I've been given the voice, I've been given a platform. I still have those revolutionary tendencies and I'm still about the revolution, but I still fall into that same bracket of silent weapons for silent wars. There's a way of attacking the enemy that they're not going to know. And that's where the Tai Chi comes in because when hardness attacks hardness, there's not going to be any type of resolve. But if the hardness finds that softness, that softness is able to yield that hardness and transmutate and redirect that energy. And that's what I'm trying to do in my own certain way. So I'm really trying to elicit the philosophy of Tai Chi along with a little bit of Che, a little bit of Malcolm. But at the same time, bring a little bit of Thich Nhat Hanh

and bring a little bit of mountain. And then bringing the running and bringing the cycling and bringing the mountain climbing and then add all that. And a little vegan food on top of that. Yeah, put a little vegan sprinkles on top. To the icing. How have you been vegan now? God, since end of 95, early 96. Right.

And your website is veganboyfresh. You made me these awesome shirts, man. They're super cool. I can't wait to rock this. Yes. Shout out to Tony Crouvet for that. Yeah, what is the vegan Boy Fresh thing all about? So Vegan Boy Fresh is really just an umbrella

for just what I'm about, you know, the veganism, the- That would be your nickname in the Guy Ritchie movie, right? Yeah, yeah, it really would be. Vegan Boy Fresh. Colin Farrell's calling you up. Get the Vegan Boy Fresh in. Farrell's calling you up. Get the Vegan Boy Fresh out. Yeah, there you go.

Out of the boxing gym. Guy, I need you to watch this, mate. I need it to be in your next movie. But no, it's really, so I have Pure Soul Zen mind, which is like my run crew, Tai Chi club, cycle bandit crew. And then the umbrella is Vegan Boy Fresh. And that's kind of like you know it's where

i talk about um mindfulness uh spirituality you know fashion because it's i i love fashion um my my girl is a fashionista so i got no choice um uh vegan, which is a very, very big component for me. And what does that mean to you? I mean, you know, before I really, before it was just a health thing, right? You know, I was really definitely sick. I needed to change my life. I found veganism. I found the power of, you know, sprouts and grains and all that stuff. And then I started getting to the spiritual component of it. And the no harming of animals. And that all animals are all sentient beings.

And that factor really played a big part in character in my makeup. To the point, you know, it's easy as even a mosquito. Man, I don't want to slap a mosquito that's on my leg. I'm like the first person, like, come on, let me. You know, it's to that point. But, you know, veganism for me is a game changer. It's just a game changer in just the fact of the clarity, the mental clarity that you have when you're not putting death in your body,

when you're not putting, you know, lifeless souls in your body. And I know that sounds drastic for any meat eaters out there, but you know, coming from a point where even just the way you smell, just the way you act, you know, there's a saying, you know, man can turn animalistic within a heartbeat. Where does that come from, animalistic? I'm not trying to be animalistic, to be honest with you. I'm just trying to be a human. You're trying to be Bodhisattva. Yeah, really and truly.

So for me, the spiritual component of not eating meat is really big. And the physical component, like I feel I'm 46 and you know, because I think I read somewhere about, you know, how you were 46 and then now you're 50 and how you feel and yada, yada. There's a feeling that you have. When I feel how I should have felt when I was 25, I feel at 25, I was 50.

I'm now coming into, you know, three years away from 50 and I feel like I'm 25. Like I get up in the morning and very rarely do I have, I might have an odd little pain in my knee or something like that. But even I remember, you know, climbing the mountains, the one day I was sore AF. I just remember like that, 13,000 feet, knocked my ass. But then the next day I got some electrolytes in me, some other stuff, and I was good to go. So, you know, I think there's something to be said. It's like an elixir.

It really is. It really is like an elixir. So veganism is like a a new age daoist elixir and it just keeps me fresh it keeps me alive it keeps me vegan boy fresh keeps me vegan boy fresh yeah so i love it yeah that's great man i i mean i couldn't agree more i feel great i'm a i'm turning 54 next month. And you look fucking amazing. You look amazing. The beard is getting white though. Yeah, don't worry about that.

You know? Don't worry about that. And you're killing me with the beard over there. Like you're the first person to sit across from me with a bigger beard. Oh, I love that. I love that. Quarantine beard.

But I love that beard. But some people are like, you look like you're a hundred, man. No, you don't. You don't. And I can tell you as somebody, when 2012 was when you brought your book out, right? I remember it.

And it was at a time when I was really getting into, you know, my Tai Chi and the veganism and yada, yada. And I remember your book and Brendan Fraser's book, Thrive. Brendan Fraser, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, Brendan Fraser, Thrive. And those two books. And I remember looking at you and being like, dude, this guy is absolutely amazing,

like an amazing specimen of a man. And to know where you came from, to where you're at back then and to where you're at now, I can tell you now that I know you and seeing you in the flesh, you are the embodiment of what? Somebody who takes their craft and their diet and their well-being into serious levels. You are the epitome of that. And I totally have such a high respect for you as far as that, because you take yourself and you look really good. And I'll be the first person to tell you, I am heterosexual to the core, but you're a good looking cat, man. And you keep yourself pretty well.

So, you know. My imposter syndrome is just like over-brimming right now. No, no, no, no, no. But I will, I've been told that when I'm complimented, I should just take it. Take it, take it. So thank you for that, I appreciate that. All right, we gotta like land this plane.

Beautiful. We've been gone, coming up on three hours here. Are you to like land this plane. Beautiful. We've been gone, we're coming up on three hours. Are you serious? Yeah. Yeah. Jesus. No, this was great. But I do want to end it with one thought, which is, I said to you earlier that, you know, you're somebody who's, you've immersed yourself in all these various traditions and reflecting on what you've learned from all these respective ideologies, is there a unifying theory? And I don't know that I got an answer for that, but as sort of parting words,

like when you think about everything that you've learned over the years from your personal experiences to these spiritual principles that you've studied, you know, what is the message that you wanna give to the person who's watching or listening who does feel stuck or is in that place of working three or four jobs or just in a cubicle and feeling like their life,

feels like it's at a dead end. Like they have this sense that they're here to do something and yet the puzzle pieces just aren't connecting for them. Yeah. I would definitely say, if you are ever encountering uncomfortable situations or you have opportunities that feel stifling or feel very scary, jump into it. Jump into it. That has been one of the things from just traveling the country, traveling different continents, there's always been an air of me being kind of scared, nervous, and like, should I make this

decision? And every time I talk myself out of it, something tells me, do it. And that little thing that always tells me to do it, I do it. And 10 out of 10 times, it has been the best decision that I have ever made. Those situations that look very, very, you might see that light at the end of the tunnel, and that light might be the size of a pinprick, the thing that I would tell you is crawl, walk, or run to that pinprick. Because that pinprick is going to end up being the size of the sun sooner or later. But you have to know that that journey is worth it. And it's almost a liken to, I always tell people, And it's almost likened to, I always tell people like, my journey has been somewhat like Luke going to the Dagobah system.

And I don't know what my purpose was for it. I don't know why I do what I do, but I'm glad that I did it and I'm glad that I, you know, went through the stages of my life that I did, wherever uncomfortable, wherever scary, wherever dark, I'm glad that it brought me to where I was because at the end of the day, I just said, fuck it, I'm gonna do it and I did it. Yeah, I think we all have that little voice in the back of our head and most of us, myself included, we exert a lot of energy to quash it

rather than trying to find the courage to fertilize it a little bit. And that's hard. It's hard because you have to go against basically all the inertia of whatever circumstances you find yourself in in order to pay attention to that voice. Because it's telling you to make changes and change is hard.

Change is hard. If you're not willing to undertake some change, shit ain't gonna change. Exactly. What's the meaning of insanity when you keep expecting different, you keep doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results, and it comes out the same.

Yeah, and I think for me that was one of the things that I realized that I had to jump off that rabbit wheel. And jumping off that rabbit wheel was, I would jump into another rabbit wheel and then jump off until I realized, why do you keep jumping into that rabbit wheel? Right? And I think that was really big for me. But again, you know, you got to tap in and leaning into your spiritual faculties, tapping into it and not being afraid.

And for men, especially, we have this bravado where we feel like we can't be vulnerable. Vulnerability was one of the biggest tools that helped me break through some of the ego. In Buddhism, they say diamond cutting, cutting through the rough, cutting to the core. So for me, vulnerability was that. Vulnerability was that tool for me to cut that diamond in the rough and the more vulnerable i was the more things became liberating and i think if you can let go of the ego or strip away that onion of that ego um because we still all have it insecurity uh not feeling that you're valued all these things are all part of it, but you have to let it go.

Because if you don't let it go, it's gonna become a big old bag backpack on your back. And it gets heavier and heavier and heavier, and it breaks you down physically as well as spiritually. So what I've learned- And you'll have your reckoning with it eventually. Eventually. You know what I mean? Exactly. So it's either gonna be rough and super hard or nip it in the bud reckoning with it eventually. Eventually. You know what I mean?

Exactly. So it's either gonna be rough and super hard or nip it in the bud. Nip it in the bud. Nip it in the bud. And I had to, it was like my mental Meru with that backpack. But once I reached the top of that summit,

I let that backpack off and it felt so good. I think that's a good place to end it. So much love brother. That was beautiful. Yeah, I loved it. How do you feel? Oh man, that was amazing. Yeah, that was great.

Oh my God. Come back anytime, man. Oh man, thank you so much. I feel the beginning of a bromance start. Yeah, I really do. I really do. I really do. Yeah, super cool. So if you're digging on Hakim,

the best place to track you down, it's probably Instagram, right? Probably Instagram. What's the, how come it's not just your name, Hakstow? That's Hakstow, because it's Hakim's Dow. Oh wow, now I get it.

I didn't get it, I was trying to figure out what that meant. Yeah, Hakim's Dow. Or veganboyfresh.com, right? Or veganboyfresh.com, yeah. Cool, all I get it. I didn't get it. I was trying to figure out what that meant. Yeah, Hakim's down. Or veganboyfresh.com. Or veganboyfresh.com. Yeah, cool. All right, brother. Thank you so much. A thousand bows to you. Thanks.

Good times. Damn, that Hakim is a lighthouse. Before we close up shop, voicing change. Oh, yes. Over eight years, 550 plus conversations, multiple thousands of hours going deep with some of the world's most compelling and dynamic minds across health, nutrition,

human performance, the arts and entrepreneurship. I picked up a thing or two and I wanted to canonize some of what I've learned. I wanted to further honor my esteemed guests and most importantly, you guys. So I created this book, a primer on the power of conversation, a testimony to our collective power to transform ourselves and culture, replete with excerpts from past episodes, my thoughts, essays, and stunning photography all wrapped up as an elegant coffee table style tome. Whether you're new to this show or a devout listener,

this work has so much to offer and you can pre-order it now anywhere in the world exclusively at richroll.com slash VC or voicingchange.com. More to come on all of this, so stay on the lookout. Of course, let Hakeem know what you thought of today's show. Hit to come on all of this, so stay on the lookout. Of course, let Hakeem know what you thought of today's show. Hit him up on the socials. He is at Hakeem on Instagram and his website, veganboyfresh.com. And of course, check out the show notes on the episode page of our brand spanking new website at richroll.com, courtesy of Emory Agency. Thank you everybody at Emory who worked very hard to create this beautiful new site that we have.

If you'd like to support our work, subscribe, rate, and comment on the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube. Share the show or your favorite episodes with friends or on social media, and you can support us on Patreon at richroll.com slash donate. Thank you to everybody who worked hard to put on today's production. Jason Camiolo for audio engineering, show notes, and interstitial music. Blake Curtis and Margo Lubin for videoing today's show and

other videos that they create. Jessica Miranda for graphics. David Greenberg for portraits. DK for advertiser relationships and theme music, as always, by Tyler, Trapper, and Harry. Thanks for the love, you guys. See you back here next week. In the meantime, think more deeply about your own personal hero's journey. How can you evolve? How can you grow? How can you transform in the tradition

that we spoke about today? Peace, plants. Namaste. Thank you.