The Rich Roll Podcast - Healing Mushrooms: Tero Isokauppila On The Magical, Mysterious, Health Promoting Properties Of Fungi

Episode Date: October 9, 2017

We tend to think of mushrooms as a pizza topping. Something we toss in a salad. Or a psychedelic to alter consciousness. But that's pretty much where the inquiry ends. However, mushrooms are so much more. In fact, they comprise an entire kingdom. Invisibly surrounding us, they underpin the very foundation of our ecology, impacting us in ways far beyond our appreciation. It may surprise you to learn that mushrooms account for an astonishing 25% of the Earth's total biomass. 92% of all plants are dependent upon mushrooms for their survival. 40% of all pharmaceuticals contain some form of mushroom. And, quite incredibly, 85% of human RNA and 50% of human DNA is shared with fungi. Mushrooms are also woefully under-appreciated when it comes to promoting health, fighting illness, buttressing longevity, enhancing memory and even boosting libido. Indeed, when properly understood and utilized, mushrooms hold the capacity to change your life in an immediate, powerful, and exponentially beneficial manner. To walk us through the magical and mysterious world of mushrooms, I sat down with my long-time friend Tero Isokauppila, the original fun-guy himself. (behind the scenes of my podcast with Tero) A life-long student of nutrition and expert on natural health hailing from Finland, Tero is the co-founder, president and marketing director of Four Sigmatic, the company behind a wide variety of very popular (and globally available) medicinal mushroom coffees, hot cacaos and elixir products that has successfully begun to introduce the health-promoting benefits of mushrooms to the mainstream. I’m not talking about mind-bending psychedelics. And I’m not talking about garden variety portobellos or even gourmet truffles. I’m talking about adaptogenic, superfood varieties most people have never previously heard of or know little to nothing about. I'm talking about less-understood immunity, longevity, and energy boosting fungi like reishi, chaga, lion’s mane, and my all-time favorite, cordyceps. Tero has been a featured speaker at events like Summit Series and Wanderlust, was chosen as one of the world's Top 50 Food Activists by the Academy of Culinary Nutrition and both he and the work of Four Sigmatic have been profiled everywhere, including Vogue, Time, Forbes, W Magazine, Harper's Bazaar, BuzzFeed, Bon Appétit, Goop, Well+Good, and MindBodyGreen. In addition, Tero is also the author of Healing Mushrooms: A Practical and Culinary Guide to Using Adaptogenic Mushrooms For Whole Body Health*, which hits bookstores everywhere Oct. 10. If today's conversation sparks deeper interest, I highly suggest picking it up. Not only is it highly instructive, it include 50+ recipes sure to expand your culinary horizon. This is a phenomenal conversation that tracks Tero's unique path from a kid foraging mushrooms in a 13th generation Finnish farming family to the entrepreneurial success he is today. It’s also fascinating deep dive into this mysterious mushroom kingdom and how these fungi can support human health. More specifically, we get granular on the individual adaptogenic properties of the most prominent superfood varieties and how incorporating them into your daily routine can take your health, longevity and performance to the next level. Enjoy! Rich

They're a kingdom that is part of the planet. The planet doesn't survive without them. We probably will benefit using them for our health and wellness. It doesn't mean that all mushrooms are good, and it doesn't mean that mushrooms are better than good bacteria or good plants. They're just part of a holistic, smart lifestyle. They're just very overlooked. And there's these immediate benefits and immediate clear things that you can get

by just incorporating a little bit of them to your diet so that's probably going to help you live a life that you more want to live you know a healthier life that's tarot isocapilla isocapilla isocapilla isocapilla tarot isocapilla i think that's right. This week on the Rich Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey people, how you guys doing? What's happening? Are you feeling all right? Are you feeling good? I hope so. Thanks for dropping by. My name is Rich Roll. It's just two syllables, far fewer than today's guests. And I'm your host. And this is it, man. This is my podcast. Welcome to it. Thanks for dropping in on the show where each and every week for the last five years, I go deep. I get intimate with the most compelling and brightest minds in wellness, fitness, nutrition, sports, tech, entrepreneurship, basically the coolest

people I can find to continue my learning curve, people who personally inspire me to be better, and hopefully all of you guys as well. So today I sit down with my buddy Taro Isakapila, who is a longtime friend. He's an awesome dude and an expert on the health, medicinal, and healing properties of mushrooms. This is a guy who is doing a lot to bring the ancient mushroom wisdom to the mainstream. And this is the subject of today's conversation. It's amazing. I think it's going to blow some minds out there and I'm excited to present it to you guys in a few minutes. But before I get into it really quick, I wanted to

take a moment to express a few thoughts on what went down in Las Vegas a couple days ago. I'm heartbroken. You know, I'm really, really devastated. And without words on how to express this sense of devastation that I feel, I can't imagine those of you who are listening who perhaps were impacted either directly or indirectly by what has transpired. And if you're listening and that is you, my heart goes out to you. I hope that you can find some peace and some sense of seeing your way through what I can only

imagine is perhaps the most devastating thing you could possibly imagine. And it creates a sense of powerlessness, a hopelessness that this is what it has come to, that this is what is going on in our culture. And I can feel that pessimism percolate up inside myself, and I don't like it. I don't like it. I choose to remain optimistic that we will find solutions, that we will organize to get the gun control we so desperately need, and the mental health services that are really fundamentally required to properly treat all of those out there who suffer, those who are in such a dark place that even the idea of doing something like this occurs to them. And I can't change what happened. I wish I could, but I can't. But I can, and we can still focus on things that we can control to make the world a little bit better. So if you listen to the most recent podcast that I did with Colin Hudon, then you know

that I'm using my upcoming 51st birthday, which is on October 20th, to try to do a little good by raising money for my buddy Scott Harrison, who is an awesome podcast guest, for his foundation, Charity Water, to build clean water projects for those in need. We take clean water for granted, but 663 million people live without it. That's nearly one out of every 10 people worldwide. And every day, about 1,400 kids die from diseases caused by unsafe water and poor sanitation every day, which is insane. And even more insane is that although this problem is admittedly huge, it's totally solvable through some pretty basic, simple solutions like drilled wells,

spring protections, and filters. And this is something that nobody does better than Charity Water. So my goal, which I think is totally doable, is to raise $51,000. And to reach it, I'm asking you guys to dig into your pockets and pledge $51, $1 for each year that I have enjoyed clean water, 100% of which will be directly deployed to build these clean water projects, which will impact over 1500 people if we reach our goal. And that's an act that will change their lives tremendously and those of generations to come, which is just so powerful and incredible. And what's really cool is that when the water projects are complete, Charity Water will send us

tons of photos and GPS coordinates so we can see up close and personal the impact and the exact community that we helped, which is amazing. So to learn more and to donate, visit my fundraising page at my.charitywater.org forward slash richroll. I'll put that in the show notes as well. And I should say that if $51 is too much, donate whatever you can. And if you're feeling generous, more, of course, is even better. Your generosity isn't just appreciated, it's needed and it's needed now more than ever. And perhaps this can even serve as a good, healthy outlet for whatever frustration or consternation that you're experiencing or feeling in the wake of the Vegas shooting. And I really think that together we can make a huge difference in so many people's lives. So, thank you.

We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because, unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem. A problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs.

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When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. Okay, Taro. Taro is such an interesting, fascinating guy. Hailing from Finland originally, Taro is a lifelong student of nutrition

and its impact on the human body. Now he is the president and marketing director of a company called Four Sigmatic. That's the company behind a wide variety of very popular medicinal mushroom coffees, hot cacaos, and elixir products, which now sells in over 25 countries. I'm not talking about psychedelics, people. Calm down. And I'm also not talking about your garden variety portabellos or even things like truffles either. I'm talking about immunity, longevity, and energy-boosting mushrooms, adaptogenic superfood varieties most people have never even heard of or maybe only know a little

bit about or nothing at all. Things like reishi, chaga, lion's mane, and my personal favorite, cordyceps. Taro is an expert on this stuff. He's an expert on superfoods and natural health. He's been a featured speaker at all kinds of cool events like Summit Series and Wanderlust and Soho House. And he was chosen as one of the world's top 50 food activists by the Academy of Culinary Nutrition. In addition, both he and Four Sigmmatic have been profiled everywhere including vogue

time forbes w magazine harper's bazaar buzzfeed bon appetit goop well and good mind body green and many many others he is also the author of a great new book entitled healing mushrooms a practical and culinary guide to using adaptogenic mushrooms for whole body health which hits bookstores everywhere october 10th it's a great read. It even includes a whole bunch of recipes, I think 50 recipes all told, and you guys should all pick it up. So this is a great conversation that tracks Taro's unique path growing up on a farm in Finland as a 13th generation farmer, learning to forage mushrooms as a kid to the entrepreneurial success he is today.

It's also a fascinating deep dive into this mysterious mushroom kingdom and how these fungi provide a foundation for gut health and overall health. And we also get very specific on the individual adaptogenic properties of the most prominent superfood varieties and how incorporating them into your daily routine can take your health and your vitality to the next level. Finally, make sure you stick around to the end because Tarot has a pretty cool giveaway I'm going to tell you about called 120 Days on Shrooms, just for you guys, for listeners of the show. Full disclosure, Four Sigmatic has been a sponsor of the podcast in the past, and I hope they will be a sponsor in the future because I love the company and I support their mission.

But this episode is not some kind of paid sponsorship thing. Like I said, Taron, I go way back. I sought him out for this conversation because I really wanted to share his wisdom with you guys. And I received nothing in return for this other than knowing you guys will benefit from listening. So that's it okay let's talk fungi

i'm sitting here uh with the original fun guy himself to talk about the magical and mysterious medicinal properties of the mycelium the mushroom right yeah the fungi i know we're gonna unpack all of this it's really cool uh thank you for coming up here thanks for having me uh thank you for bringing some of your products we're drinking some lion's mane tea yay coffee do you call it it's caught you call it we call it elixir elixir right is when it doesn't have coffee we used to call it tea but then when we started we really didn't know much about like the regulation of starting a company or anything like that if you use certain words like if you say tea you have to have the tea leave in it because it's a plant it's um so

but coffee doesn't have that same but this one doesn't have tea or coffee. So we call it an elixir. You could call it a potion or you could call it a drink mix, but we just call it an elixir. I just think I kind of love the sound of that. It's nice, man. And it tastes good. And we're going to talk about the properties of all of these mushrooms but i think maybe a good way to kind of launch into it is just to establish or at least kind of expand people's awareness of this crazy mushroom kingdom because we don't really think about we think about mushrooms in the context of like mushrooms on our pizza and it kind of ends there but you know mushrooms are in 40 percent of pharmaceuticals uh 92 percent of plants

are dependent on mushrooms 25 percent of the earth's biomass is is uh is mushroom based fungi and i think i read uh in your stuff like 85 percent of our rna and half of our dna is shared with mushrooms. Yeah. That's insane. It is pretty insane. We don't even think about it. It's like this invisible reality that surrounds us and informs our world.

But it's not part of our like daily consciousness or awareness. I mean, I know you're working to change that. But that's the truth, right? Yeah, it is. but that's the truth right yeah it is it is like um it's often looked at as as this like sub sub group of vegetables that you put on your pizza or a topping it's like do you do you want like bell peppers or mushrooms on your pizza or do you want you know what i mean it's like it's like saying do you want a plant or But it's a kingdom. It's a kingdom. So as much as plants are the foundation of good health,

bacteria is a kingdom, and good bacteria is a foundation of good health, and fungi is a kingdom, and it's a foundation of good health, I think. And when something is a kingdom, there's something that will heal you, and there's something that will hurt you. And even though as much as you're all about the plant-powered way there's certain plants that if you go into the forest and you pick them wild they're lethal right it's not going to be good yeah and uh so the same with mushrooms some of them are bad there's bad mushrooms out there but then there's these really healing ones but um to your point is that when something is a kingdom it's needed in this ecosystem and and plants

actually need these fungi this mycelium mass to collect water and nutrients they like spread out they're like an extended root system and they help collect water or and they help break down organic and inorganic matter in the forest so they are essentially like the vacuum cleaners and the decomposing machine of the forest and and mother nature and they can even break down radiation and these in inorganic things like even oil diesel you can they can go right and now the latest discovery a few years ago is that they can eat plastic that's a huge discovery that's so they're trying to

figure out people i guess much smarter than i am trying to figure out applications on how this mushroom that was discovered in the amazon few years ago how it can be used to just break down plastic but the kicker is that now they're saying it's totally safe and good for you to eat as well after it's composted after it's so essentially you're eating you're eating uh decomposed plastic well i don't process through fungi i need to uh i haven't tried it yet so i can't say if it's if it's good or not but uh but it's fascinating that that really the the core essence of fungi is is the mycelium that you don't see, like the root system that's under the ground. We think of the mushroom cap, but that's just the flower.

Yeah, it's as much, if you see that traditional mushroom shape that is iconic in its own way, that is called the fruiting body. And that's as much as you see an apple from an apple tree and then the apple tree itself is is called mycelium or hyphae and that is underground and that is like you said about 25 of the earth's biomass is is fungi and the the funniest or the most amazing one is actually in oregon and it's a honey mushroom that is the size of about 20,000 basketball courts, and it's one mushroom. Whoa. And it's basically in this natural park,

and some people say it's 2,000 years old, some people say it's 4,000 years old, but it's, to our knowledge, the oldest and largest living organism in planet Earth. That's amazing. How did they even discover that? How do you calculate the size of it you know it is basically like it's actually munching on trees it's eating trees so actually fungi and um animals share this one thing is that we cannot produce our own food because plants can plants can produce their own food um

but we need external food sources and same with mushrooms and that mushrooms can like also create vitamin d from the sun the same way as we can but that's another conversation um point being is that they're going to munch these trees and and and they like to eat this national park slowly and and decobost it into soil and topsoil. But yeah, there's some clever people who've dedicated their whole life to just like a few different types of mushrooms. And they love to geek out and very specifically. I try to look at the bigger picture, but there's people that are just dedicated on looking at this honey mushroom particularly. Right. That's amazing.

So how did this whole thing begin? I mean, you come from a long line of farmers, right? You grew up on a farm, like 13th generation, like your family farm dates back to like the 1600s or something like that. Yeah. Actually, that's funny because you just got back from Sweden, but Finland was like 600 years part of Sweden and it's still our second language is Swedish and official language and we don't really know how old the farm is but we know at least then and uh yeah that's where it kind of started and mom taking me and my older brother out foraging for mushrooms and berries and leaves and

shoots so it's not just mushrooms but it was like it was not a foreign concept of going to the forest and picking out something and having dinner from that the same day right so it was like it was not a foreign concept of going to the forest and picking out something and having dinner from that the same day right so it was like learned at a very young age what's an edible mushroom what's not how to how to pick yeah the basic ones um we've obviously when we were forging we were forging like chanterelles and boletes which are more of your culinary mushrooms and obviously now my passion is in these healing functional mushrooms but um um yeah that was where we started is like chanterelles which is such a posh food now it's like you're like like michelin star quality food but in there it's like just everywhere they're all over the place yeah and were you were you

growing produce on the farm too and yeah oats animals and things like that or yeah oats was the core uh so when i was young the farm was actually really big in today's world it's actually really tiny because the farm sizes have just increased both in and in farming grains or or you know staples but also in animals like we had 50 of these like heirloom cows and and now if you go to a like you i mean you're beyond familiar with it there's there could be like 20 000 you know it's in it's just like the size like i would know most of their names yeah um today's world if you just what's that the gnarliest place cowlinga when you drive to san francisco it's the worst it's you smell it like

as you're driving in it's you smell and it's just like the saddest side but when i was a kid and this might be different in the u.s but in finland like we had a big farm and then now it's like barely survived so a lot of the income is based on tourism and we have these cottages by these beautiful lakes and then uh forest um just you know it's a renewable energy source but also like it money grows on trees in a way so um but yeah oats i'm sure if i haven't did you notice when you go to sweden like oat milk is like it's a thing there's a brand called old lee who's now also in the u.s that instead of almond milk we use a lot of oat milk i didn't see that i don't recall that specific brand but i did go to a couple uh grocery stores and i know i did notice oat milk being a thing yeah oatmeal is like

in scandinavian staple breakfast right and then oat milk is a thing as well. So a lot of people, even though they don't approach it from a super, super health conscious, but there's a lot of lactose intolerance. So almost every household is familiar with the concept of offering something like an oat milk or a lactose intolerant option. like offering something like an oat milk or like a lactose intolerant option. You know, I found the, the community in Stockholm to be super forward thinking and health conscious.

There were tons of really healthy restaurants and vegan restaurants and, and gourmet supermarkets that have, you know, amazing fair. Like it was, it was great. Like I felt like, you know, they're, they're totally, you know, on fare. Like it was, it was great. Like I felt like, you know, they're, they're totally, you know, on the page. Is it like that in Finland as well?

Yeah. I think, I think, um, Finland and maybe Norway are the most forward thinking. Uh, I think at one point Finnish people ate more superfoods than any other nation in the world. superfoods than any other nation in the world but i think compared to especially la it's more about you know um the the staples versus exotic superfoods it's more like you know the berries and you know having clean local food um so i think there's it's less about being like a trend or it's more about a lifestyle choice yeah Yeah. It's like generally like clean food and good quality food is just appreciated in general. Yeah. Yeah.

I definitely, I definitely got that there. Um, so beautiful there, man. What a magical part of the world. It is incredible. We took the,

this ferry out from Stockholm to the archipelago, the outer reaches of it. And it's like a two-hour ride and you just these islands that you go through and and just you know the extended outreaches of of stockholm that you know it's just literally like all these beautiful homes on the water everywhere you look and it's just yeah that's that's a huge thing is even if you're not like health conscious or particularly connected to nature pretty much all sc Scandinavian Nordic people will in the summertime, because the summer is so short.

Yeah. It's when we take a break. We go crazy. There's so many people that were super tan. Yeah. Yeah. Like, Oh,

like when the sun comes out, it's full on. It's full on. It's if, if you, if you ever go to like, I don't know, Thailand or Miami and you meet Nordic people, they're always like a little sunburned because or miami and you meet nordic people they're always

like a little sunburned because they're like once they see it they're so at it and uh point being is like then people would go in these summers and they go into these cottages or the countryside kind of dwelling and and that's when you like preferably don't even have running water and and you're just living kind of for that month or two really in nature without a lot of the modern things and right so it's a big part of the culture for sure so you're foraging for mushrooms with your mom and you're learning about this world uh but but it wasn't it wasn't like the plan was to turn this into a profession right you go to school but there's a there's a cool story about this contest that you enter

when you're in college, right? They kind of flip the light switch for you. Yeah, I joke often that I work for mushrooms and then that mushroom chose me and not the other way around. Because I feel like there's been so few times in my life, like, you know, like, is it the universe or just random chance or whatever the reason is,

like certain things click. And even though I've grown up foraging for mushrooms, but I also was equally excited about berries and other things like that. And as almost as a joke, me and my college friend entered this innovation contest in the Nordic countries, the government really like supports and it's a little socialist. There's certain benefits. You can't really be homeless, for example, there. And there's all these things. And one of the things is they try to encourage innovation. It's a huge thing.

And we were bored on our first year of college. And we were just bored and didn't know what to do. So we came from this area which was identical to the Hokkaido Island and the northern main island in Japan. And we'd already talked about the similarities. And then one evening, me and my friend basically discovered that there's this mushroom that is like a nugget. It's like the truffle for the Japanese also grows in Finland in where we grew up.

And we didn't much think of it, but we thought, oh, we'll just, as we were bored, we'll just submit this idea of building a foraging network. Because we were already Finnish people already foraging for these bolinis, these like culinary mushrooms to Italy

and sending them to italian restaurants so why not do that to japan with this mushroom that was just discovered and and passed the idea and and then we won and these mushrooms are in crazy demand in japan right like the market price is insane yeah it is um yeah it's it's it's what i would just say is the truffle for the japanese so it's like incredible price because there's such a small supply. And I don't know if this is any more true, but at that time, Tokyo had more Michelin star restaurants than London and Paris combined. So when they do something, they do it really seriously.

And there's a lot of really good restaurants, obviously a lot of people as well. And these restaurants love this one mushroom so right so you win the contest and and that's sort of wind in your sails or sort of a a nod from the universe like hey maybe there's something here to explore yeah unfortunately i was never like passionate about and still i am not as serving the one percent and even though it's cool we got money from the government they were ready to support our launch of this brand me or my friend were neither like gung-ho about like figuring out a system to serve miscellaneous thought restaurants in japan you know it's not like so when i ended up donating the business idea did that but i mean just through

that process i learned so much more about like how a, like a little piece of a mushroom be worth like 500 bucks? And what is I, at that time, especially in my life, I was thinking about value. Like what is how you value things? Like it's paper, it's money is a paper, but you exchange it for things. And for some, how for some people, something is worth this. And for some some other people it's worth 10 000 times more and uh but i just wanted to travel around the world see and explore different cultures and that was not my calling at that point but it left this like planet a seed that then a few years later like blossomed into like becoming totally obsessed with mushrooms but at this point it was like i was not kind of ready for it yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I mean, you've lived in, I think you said before we started the podcast, you've lived in 10 countries. So you traveled quite a bit after that.

Yeah, and I was picking up odd jobs here and there. I worked for a university in Vancouver, Canada. And, you know, I was spending time in the Philippines and Hong Kong and Paris and whatever. And that kind of also gave me perspective because Nordic countries, certain things are really good, but it's also very like a small society. So then going out in the world and also seeing how agriculture is in different parts of the world and also exploring each country's own best superfoods. of the world and also exploring each country's own best superfoods and they're like sacred things that not only have nutrient density but they have a cultural meeting like same way as in finland like chaga mushroom or nettle root or rhodiola root are things that are like big things in our society or

sea buckthorn um when it would go to philippines i would figure out moringa leaf or something is it yeah it's like their version yeah so it's also like fun to see how around the world certain other things are like holy or sacred for that society in that region right well at the same time when you when you're in asia it's it's impossible to not notice these sort of uh holistic traditions that date back thousands of years that have been healing, you know, people and been kind of, you know, part and parcel of their kind of medical, you know, industrial complex, you know. Yeah. Herbal remedies, you know, traditional Chinese medicine. These practices have been harnessing and leveraging the power of you know

herbs and of course mushrooms for quite a long time but that is a foreign concept to say the least to you know the western mind yeah i remember when i lived in hong kong i would go um there was this plant-based restaurant in the heart of hong kong has this main area of the hong kong island where the british originally came and in the heart of the hong kong island at the center of the center of the center is this area called central and there's these world's largest escalators going up and up and down and uh i would go to this plant-based restaurant with my friends and right next door to it at the absolute heart of it it's this little corner chinese medicine store that would sell for like um i think it's something like 50 cents in us dollars or something like that this little cup of 24 bitters and it's the most like this bitter

and nasty drink but i would see people in suits going into big banks and then they were just on their way they would stop for this little cup of like bitters and they would just chug it every day and it was like fascinating to see is that it was not a big deal it's not it's not going to the air one and like it was just like it's almost like their starbucks in a way their own like traditional starbucks you chug it go to work yeah and it's what is that yeah and we would always stop by there and have this little cup of bitters. And you get addicted to it after like a week or two of drinking these extreme bitters. You start craving for it. You're like, if you skip a day, you're like, I kind of need bitters right now.

Yeah, well, it's probably planting your microbiome with that population of microbes that start to crave that kind of thing. Yeah, totally agree. Yeah, cool. So when does the idea occur to you to create this business out of mushrooms? Where does that come from? Well, yeah. So at one point I was like, A, I had seen is that the knowledge I learned growing up in Finland was not commonly available like it

was one it was just understanding is that like a lot of people even a lot of like successful people um have no clue on a lot of the kind of what i consider to be somewhat basic knowledge and nutrition and i saw them the stress levels and just their life quality being pretty low. And so that was one thing. The other thing is like, I, you know, I just, I was, me personally was excited about it. And I was ordering like random capsules and pills of various superfoods, including, you know, mushrooms from shady websites and like trying to like put them in my smoothies. And I thought this must be, be yeah this must be made easier like i couldn't convince a lot of my friends to do it because it was so shady like even if the ingredients are good if they're not presented in a way that it's like less you know scary that's

really important so right like while processing and and bioavailability also right which we're going to get into but yeah so like i would be just like combining formulating my own things and opening these capsules and pills and i was like oh this needs to be made easier but the original plan even at that point was that that we'll do like bunch of stuff i wanted to make a pine pollen product that was the first product we started working on so um so i partner up with a bunch of my older roommates from different countries and like it's like a group of friends um originally from finland though and we started working on these all these products and and and every time we try to make a decision we came back

to mushrooms and it was like it was like all this like i tried to run away from it but it just kept coming back why do you why is that like why did you keep coming back to that? Because you felt like that was underserved in the market or there was a lack of understanding? Well, for me, first of all, it was like, I was obviously first a believer, but I was like an equal believer on some other stuff. But then secondly is when I tried to convince

of these other stuff, like let's say bilberries. Bilberries are like wild blueberries that grow in Finland. if i would put them in my friend who was an athlete into his smoothie he's like oh it's good tastes good but he wouldn't notice anything um that's why i think coffee is pretty popular around the world is it gives you a noticeable result you know it's like yeah it's pretty immediate it's like okay or adderall it's like okay i take it i feel it and that's what happened with especially cordyceps yeah because you were a really fast runner right like you're well i don't know fast well you know you were a good runner and you had this kind of epiphany moment with cordyceps yeah and it's actually funny like two years after as we're launching our product somebody

emailed me is like have you heard of this guy, Rich Roll? That was at the time that you had this post with Tim Ferriss' blog. This must be before Finding Ultra. Yeah, he let me. Well, no, what happened was Tim was gracious enough to let me do a guest post on his blog that would come out sort of at the same time as my book came out. Okay. At this point, I had not heard of the book yet. Right. And and it was like i think that was the first time i discovered you as well so it was like yeah 10 it was like uncommon superfoods yeah and of course it was one of them it was

something that that you do you know compton rom do you know compton no i don't he's since moved but he's he's moved to utah but he was like my my sort of mentor and shepherd into the world of superfoods and kind of um uh you know bizarre uncommon yeah foods that could boost performance yeah and he's a phd in microbiology and he taught me about the microbiome and he would create these he would craft these insane elixirs at his house he has a company called ascended health and he was developing different product lines and he would call me and he'd say i just came up with this thing like you got to come over here and try it and it would be like the foulest tasting you know thing ever but it would be like bubbling up like out of frankenstein's laboratory or something

but it was incredible the impact that this was having on my training and my recovery. So cordyceps was a key part of that. Clearly he had an impact, but what got you fully into like go into the kind of the uncommon and uncharted territories? Was it just your personality of like, if you do it, you want to do it the best you can? Or what got you drawn into like things like cordyceps which at that point probably nobody had really heard of yeah i think what happened was i had had such a a profound experience in changing my diet and how that impacted my life and that got me interested in human potential and performance and and my interest in ultra endurance was kind of triggered by that impulse, like which became an obsession because that world of ultra endurance is a is a beautiful template to to test these things.

Right. And when I went plant based, it was it was an extraordinary thing. And I was like, OK, well, what? OK, so that's that's great. But like, what's next? And if I want to perform as an athlete, there's this whole world of other stuff here that i probably never would have explored without compton because he was like let me take you in and i'm going to teach you about all these at that point had you heard of the myth and lore of cordyceps and the running especially in the endurance world there was a was it the um chinese yeah the female yeah 93, yeah. So they won all these gold medals out of the blue. Everybody was doping. Yeah, everybody was.

I mean, look, honestly, you could have still been doping. Who knows? But they never got caught. And then they were asked, like, how did you break? I just remember that one of the ladies broke 30 minutes on 10K. I think the first woman in the world. It was like 1933 or something like that right when this happened 93 stood guard early 90s early 90s um and that was groundbreaking you know going

under 30 minutes i've never i've never gone right in the 30 minutes though um so and they were saying yes there was like tons of cordyceps and this is this and they're like we didn't invent this this has been this goes back thousands of years with chinese medicine and since then like stanford which you're familiar with has studied cordyceps and there's like then after that i feel like the western world but that's why i feel like that's that one usually cordyceps is popular among people who are in like endurance sports or right it's an easy cell like yeah this is a performance enhancer like it's an easy sell like yeah this is a performance enhancer like it's different when you say oh this will relax you yeah help you fall asleep this will improve your mental clarity but like if you're like you're gonna be a better athlete you know

like you're gonna immediately attract you know a lot and this is the one study that gets quoted a lot uh which is that the vo2 max improvement up to 15 which is it's on untrained individuals you know it's it's not going to be if you're on your peak performance but if you're in peak performance you want two percent um two percent more millimoles in your vo2 max it's like mind blowing you know that alone so yeah i think and it has something to do, you can speak to this more intelligently than I, but it has something to do with improving your body's ability to uptake and utilize oxygen more efficiently. Correct. So kind of going back, cordyceps is an odd mushroom. Most top mushrooms grow on trees.

Cordyceps is a really random, it's actually a parasitic. It's like a fungus that grows on the back of some beetle or yeah exactly it's a parasitic one commercially made ones are vegan there's no animals you can grow it in a lab yeah correct or yeah you basically you can you can there's two ways you can grow the mycelium or the fruiting body and there's a few different strains that are safe for humans and they're all actually they're all safe for humans and i'm saying this because somebody might have seen this documentary of bbc with cordyceps taking over these killer ants and uh it's richard edinburgh like poetically explains how how cordyceps takes over uh um ants and uh but yeah it's an odd like this mythical uh mushroom it's in the fungi family

and it was discovered by the sherpas in the high like tibet himalayan say they were like the yaks which are like these big local bulls domesticated big mammals that would carry heavy things up the mountain and they were all tired and then they started grazing on this mushroom and they've got this like this jolt of energy and they're like the sherpa's like what's going on and they they started eating it and it became a thing 2 000 years ago and uh and it was used for like for respiratory issues for lungs for like people might have had asthma and then lower back which is funny that's where your adrenal glands are so they like one thing that cordyceps does is this

like an adaptogen so it helps your body to adapt to stress and that happens usually through the glands and then the whole hba axis you know how your adrenals and your ptolemies and those like produce hormones cordyceps is really kind of supporting of your jing or you're supporting of your adrenals and then the other one is what you just said is it helps with kind of energy utilization and like both on how atp production is made so how energy is made in your cells so everything in your body is made out of cells and every cell is like a factory of energy right and that's why like like a lot of people I think also report such an energy boost of going plant-based. It's partly I think because of that energy production just gets better and ATP and all that stuff.

But yeah, and then energy utilization, like how good your body like moves oxygen in your lungs. And it's not that the cordyceps makes you um a better athlete or have gives you energy it just helps your own body to get more oxygen and oxygen is life like it's better than any cup of coffee you know yeah and it's not a jolt like a cup of coffee it's just i mean my experience with it is that i mean it's a noticeable difference but it's just a feeling of of of sustained uh energy and this feeling that you can go a little bit longer and a little bit harder than you could otherwise before you kind of cap out and run out of steam and chris and i my my teammate uh at did i say it right uh we both we both uh had our four sigmatic cordyceps in the morning before

the race yeah yes i want you to know that i'm happy to hear that us through the day so thank you for that um any help is needed on that race oh yeah i could have used a little more help yeah but it was good but anyway yeah and i've been using i've been using cordyceps for years ever since compton introduced me to it and this was your first this was kind of your first product was yeah it was it was cordyceps and then in rishi rishi is like also in adaptogen and um but that's more of like helping you relax and sleep better. So yeah, generally speaking, it's an easier sell to tell someone is like,

hey, this will like give you energy and sport performance. Is it your best seller today? No, it changes, you know, it's like Sweden, it's a different best seller than it is in the US or it's a different best seller in Australia than it is in the u.s or it's a different bestseller in australia than it is in in france but uh um it's incredibly popular but lately the one that people have been loving which is funny because for the first we started 2012 so the first four years this this mushroom was by far the least prop least popular and almost we were like should we stop selling it because nobody was buying it but we loved it ourselves. So we just kept going.

And in the last year or so, it just blew up. And it's called Lion's Mane. Which is what we're having right now. Yeah, and it's not. So tell me what that does. First of all, it's not the mane of a lion. It's not there. We actually get a customer service inquires like, are the lions free range?

Are you serious? Yeah, I'm not kidding not kidding hello we're a mushroom company yeah and there's another mushroom called turkey tail and people are always like that is not a good thing for the turkeys you know i mean just to like for as a quick aside uh the mushroom kingdom is fucking fascinating because these mushrooms come in so many crazy shapes and forms and julie is delivering her next cookbook tomorrow and so over the last you know six months like this kitchen has been a laboratory of her experimenting um and trying to come up with plant-based italian dishes yep and just yesterday i told her to save it. I don't know if, I think it probably got eaten, but she had, she created this dish out of the chicken mushroom.

Chicken of the woods. I think that's what it is. And it only blooms like once a year, like it's very seasonal. And she created this delicious dish with this sauce on it and you slice it like chicken and you chew it and it has that fibrous texture oh for sure and consistency of it was shocking you know how much it felt like

eating chicken yeah even though it was a big giant mushroom yeah and also she does a lobster risotto with the lobster mushroom which is orange and not only does it have the color palette of a lobster it has the taste and consistency of a lobster it's just bizarre and it's not made in the lab it is as natural as it grows in nature yeah yeah it's a it's a fascinating one isn't it and it's actually if you go to like for example when i lived in hong kong or you visit a buddhist temple somewhere and get this vegetarian meal it's such a common like a meat substitute actually some of the including lion's mane as well and and but they are beautiful they're they're

like um they're almost like art they kind of look like it but there's a mental barrier that you kind of have to overcome because we just kind of grow up perceiving these things as like you know something to avoid you know with the opposed you know with the exception of the the condiment like mushrooms like uh you know like that's that doesn't taste good or mold like but yeah it's like because yeah you associate it with mold and something that's unhealthy yeah trust me i've yeah this is your burden this is your marketing burden it's the two things one is the concept of psychedelic mushrooms and the other one is the concept of like molds and bad mushrooms and that's the conversation i'm

having and kind of back to where we started if something is a kingdom it comes in many colors many shapes many flavors many consistencies so if you just think of the butter mushroom and say i don't like the flavor i don't like the texture, that's a fairly small limitation of what they can do. And for example, this lion's mane, it looks like almost like a cheerleader's pom-pom that grows on a tree. And it is actually such a yummy meat substitute as well for a lot of people. So another cool way how you can get a heavy meat eater to get excited of something like an alternative and um i've never been like a big fan of like seitan or like mixes of stuff um so i think that's why especially like i've had this another love for mushrooms as well.

So let's go through it. You know, the more popular medicinal sort of adaptogenic mushrooms that you kind of are involved in are not just lion's mane, but we've got shaga, we've got reishi. We talked about cordyceps a little bit i mean those are kind of the main ones right yeah those are then parse those those are main ones do and like why should we be including these in our diet yes so those are the most kind of research and most differentiated and if you're in the health circles you might have heard of reishi but if you're just tuning in and you is it reishi or reishi there's neither way and there's the you can it's a japanese word and uh you can say either way and but if you're tuning in and you're like

hey what are these like i've never heard of any of them they sound so exotic i just want to before we dive into what do they all of those do is just know that there are more familiar mushrooms that offer similar and equally good functional benefits the shiitake the maitake the enoki the oyster mushroom so not all of them are exotic as cordyceps but to just to kind of frame it um reishi or reishi um is the queen of all mushrooms so it's probably it's the most studied of them for their health benefits it's really like this motherly calming nurturing mushroom especially good if you're highly stressed or if you need to improve your sleep quality and but all of these top mushrooms help with your gut health your gut biome reishi is great for that they help with usually blood

sugar you know and just managing but yeah gut health and immunity they're they're modulating your immune system but reishi particularly is this nurturing motherly uh calming mushroom and then there's pretty fascinating studies on how we could improve sleep quality so you can go into a deeper sleep and then cordyceps is even though neither of them are like sedative or stimulant it's like somewhat the opposite it's like it's like fire energy go go go like get more out of your workout use for more of the lungs and the respiratory issues but also sports and performance and i actually in the um in in in my upcoming book there is a there's a recipe called quarter sex on the beach because it was used as an aphrodisiac for a long time.

So it's a kind of a playful, fun way of making a mocktail and using quarter steps as the as the booster. But so that's like fire energy go performance. One question I have about that is I use it not on a daily basis, but kind of pick and choose like, okay, I have a really big workout on Thursday, so I'll have it that morning, but I don't do it every day. So, but I don't know, like, is it okay to do it every day? Or do you develop like a, like a, not an immunity, but a tolerance to it? Like, is it something that is it should be for daily use or is it something that you should just use periodically so this adaptogen this concept of

these 10 to 20 of the most studied powerful herbs and fungi in the world that balance our body um so the word adaptogen comes from it being helpful to adapt you to stress and difficult situation from exercise to just your normal daily life of being a mother to and to children or whatever. Right. And just sorry to interrupt, but like in an Ayurvedic sense, it kind of reads your body and understands what's out of balance and sort of naturally knows how to address that. That's exactly the point so in order to be an adaptogen or as diarrhea they often like rasayana or um an emperor herb in china or you have to be safe and non-habit forming so if it causes you an addiction or if it's not safe daily it cannot be an adaptogen second is what you just said is is it it restores balance so it's not really healing you of anything it just restores balance whatever

the homeostasis and balance it is for your case so the same thing for someone might be a lot of energy and for the other person it might be a lot of calming depending where you're on the spectrum and then third one is that it's non-specific so it works the body like a symphony versus an individual instrument. So those are things. And so yeah, cordyceps is safe every day, to answer your question. That being said, all of these adaptogens, I think they're better if you play with them seasonally and rotate them a little bit. That being said, the mushrooms have,

and actually oats in but it's much smaller capacity have these one of the most studied compounds in the world called polysaccharides these many sugars and uh even if you're on a on a ketogenic diet they're they're not going to impact the blood sugar but um especially these beta-glugans are among the most studied compounds for human health and those beta-glugans are kind of like the chlorophyll plants in a way, the same ways that you don't have to eat spinach every day. You don't have to eat kale every day. But it's probably in your best interest to have chlorophyll

in some capacity on a daily basis and a regular basis. The same way it's probably good to have beta-glugans and polysaccharides every day but one day it can come from a shiitake one day it can come from cordyceps and then one day it can come from goji berries or oats but um so it's safe every day but you're probably doing it the right way by just kind of rotating them a little bit i think that's an important point that has a macro application to how we live our lives and think about, you know, what we put in our bodies, because we

have a tendency as human beings to, you know, to want to just zero in on one thing and think that's the, you know, that is the, that's the thing that's going to make the difference. And those things tend to vacillate depending upon cultural trends so for a while it's kale you know it's this and then it's like that's the answer that's the thing and it's like it's not you know we as human beings and and part of this greater ecosystem we are as cyclical as the plants that grow out of the the ground and i think we need to pay more attention to those circadian rhythms and modulate our our behavior patterns and our eating habits accordingly. And I think that's a really important point.

So even though I'm, you know, gallivanting around the world talking and yelling about mushrooms and I'm trying to be like a PR firm for this kingdom. You're doing a good job, by the way. Oh, thank you. you're doing a good job oh thank you uh i at any point i don't want somebody to think that mushrooms are better than another kingdom or that mushrooms are like the ultimate superfood no they're just that's that doesn't that doesn't get clicks you know what i mean it's like in doing my research for today it's like i look at the headlines of the press that you get it's like you know mushroom coffee is the new kale it's like yeah that's what gets people interested oh for sure and you know there's a value to that if you get it's like you know mushroom coffee is the new kale it's like yeah that's what gets people interested oh for sure and you know there's a value to that if you get it's like a conversation

opener it's the same way as like i said like often on a daily basis somebody comes to me and it's like ha ha ha are these psychedelic or are these magic mushrooms i've never heard that joke yeah and so i mean if that gets the conversation going let's's roll with it. It's not a bad thing, you know? I'm sure you also don't want to be known as just this guy who does these ultra-endurance feeds, but if that's a conversation starter to join you in a holistic... Right, like what gets people interested and what else you have to say. Yeah, and like the whole lifestyle and just who are you as a father

and as a family and and as a as a as a family man and and you know holistic and just you know spirituality and all that other stuff you have to offer but that might be the conversation starter is like right how many iron mans or you know it's like it's like um so the same with that is is mushrooms is is a kind of conversation starter you know i don't mind those headlines, but as long as you kind of very quickly move the conversation to what they actually are, is that they're a kingdom that is part of the planet.

The planet doesn't survive without them. We probably will benefit using them for our health and wellness. Doesn't mean that all mushrooms are good and it doesn't mean that mushrooms are better than good bacteria or good plants they're just part of a holistic smart lifestyle they're just very overlooked and there's like these immediate benefits and immediate clear things that you can get by just incorporating a little bit of them to your diet so that's probably going to help you live a life that you more want to live, you know, healthier life, more fulfilled life.

But yeah, I do not want to say that they're better. And actually, even nutrition, sometimes I feel like it's like people put almost too much emphasis on nutrition. I think it's just like that's the white belt of life, though it's hard to build anything else if that foundation is not on point. But then you have movement and you have air quality and even water quality and then you have your personal relationships and love and fulfillment and purpose that are all like it's the the mental thing is the final frontier that's like the black belt but it's hard to get the black belt if you haven't done the white belt stuff right and uh yeah it's uh it kind of relates

to my original point about humans being reductive you know so i see you know because i i go to these veg fests and and you know i go to a place where you know i speak at places where like food is the subject right and and that's great and And like you said, that is foundational. And that is a portal to everything else that can come with that. Like you renew your vitality. Now the question or the conversation needs to turn to how are you going to channel that vitality to serve others and continue to grow for yourself in the other facets of your life? But I see a lot of people get stuck because, you stuck because whether it's mushrooms or kale or whatever it is, that's the answer and they kind of live there.

And it's like, no, this has to continue further if you want to be fully expressed. Yeah, I love to give him this anecdote because I learned it from my mom when I was, I think, like five or six. And my mom was saying this rule of three is that you can be three weeks without eating any food you can be three days without drinking water and you can barely be three minutes without breathing so that's why breath is more important than water but water is more

important than food but then you could always go what one step when i was an adult i thought i cannot even be three minutes three seconds without thinking so when i try to meditate i'm like constantly like catching myself it's like okay empty your mind you know so how long could you go without movement yeah exactly like it's hard to stay still you know connecting to something greater than yourself for sure and um i just like that as like kind of like was a one way to look at how they all important but like some of them might have like it's a it's a ladder that you're trying to like that actualize self-actualization is a massive mycelium underneath the ground right

connecting everything in this ecosystem we're all connected man we actually are it's kind of it's kind of crazy psychedelics in this lion's mane that i'm drinking right now no not not yet but i still i like i like to say that they're magical in their own way but they're uh not hologenic just kind of the final note on that is i i have a really good friend uh his name is andrew and when i first met him he was your average new york city just like going to work type of a guy and you know partly with mushrooms and partly actually going here in your podcast and going plant-based like you're one of his biggest heroes maybe after david goggins is maybe his favorite okay i'll give him that and uh mine too but it's funny how he always talks about it like how those small changes of like going plant-based for a week or having a mushroom

coffee that then trickles into everything in life and that goes through relationships and how he just looks at everything in life and even though like eating plant-based or drinking mushrooms is a good thing that he still does, he found like that just to take to another conversation that was beyond food and beyond even movement. And it was like where he found more fulfillment as well. Right, because he approached it as a portal. Or even if you don't know that, when you begin to change these practices, it starts to open you up in different ways. when you begin to like change these practices it starts to open you up in different ways that it's like i didn't this was not my intention to go down this road but here's where i find myself now yeah totally just cool all right uh chaga yeah so chaga is the if rishi is the queen chaga is the

king and it is a fascinating mushroom that grows in the birch tree and i kind of said it's it's in you know finland and sweden it's one of our holy things it you know um it was used as a coffee substitute for example um so one of the ideas why we created this mushroom coffee that has become incredibly popular in the last year or so um was the idea of the finnish people drink more coffee than any other nation in the world i think something like around three times what the americans drink and but it's a different slightly different culture i don't know if you noticed in sweden but they do this thing called fika f-i-k-a and no what is it's like it's actually social it's connecting with another person so you go and have a cup of coffee and some people have a cinnamon bun or whatever they do but the other important part is also to discutera which is like you just have and connect with

another human being and it's almost like our siesta it's like our break in the day when you have this conversation that's beautiful and but um coffee's been drank and during second world war we were attacked both by the germans Germans and the Russians, and we didn't get coffee beans, so people started brewing this chaga. And after the war, they started researching it in the University of Helsinki, and they're like, oh my God, there's so many health benefits to this mushroom that has been part of our ecosystem. And I think there's 46 drugs derived from chaga, isolated from this betaline, betalinic acid found in chaga.

And a full brew cup of this wild chaga equals to like 30 pounds of carotene antioxidant. So it's quite this wellness mushroom that is like good when you travel or if you're like catching a cold or anything like that. It's like- Or recovering from a workout. Yeah.

And that's also a thing I had to learn is is the recovery part is almost important because exercise even though it's good stress it's still stress and uh and that and before you can catch the next workout you have to recover if you or especially if you want to get a good quality workout and so chaga is definitely like awesome for that and it's actually really easy to catch a flu or a cold after a workout because the immune system is you know suppressed it's yeah sure and people don't pay enough attention to that recovery process thinking that the workout is what's making them better but it's the workout is what is what triggers the physiological response that makes you better and stronger and faster. And you have to attend to that recovery process with the same intentionality that you approach the workout itself.

To overlook that is to really hamstring the process. It actually makes you temporarily weaker, like an exercise. It breaks you down so that you can build up and be stronger, right? Yeah. weaker like an exercise it breaks you down so that you can build up and be stronger right yeah so so yeah so i'm always looking for uh an advantage to expedite the recovery process whether it's through you know food or or behavior um so that's good to know so we have shaga for post-workout we have cordyceps cordyceps for performance during workout we have reishi for calming yourself at night but again like it's that's my reductive brain so this is what these are for and they have

more adaptogenic you know broader implications they can't be categorized so simplistically right no absolutely not and that's that's actually a thing i struggle with you know making products and you know talking is like if somebody who doesn't know, if you make it too complicated, you're like, it does this, it does this. Yeah. And they're like, I heard that too. And I was like, what's the difference between Chaga and Rishi? Like, it took me forever to like, remember because they have so many different qualities

to them. And that's, you know, talk to their beauty, but that's also makes it pretty hard to explain to another person so actually in one of our boxes it says easy to use hard to explain like we we don't even try to explain it it's like it is there it's mushrooms but um yeah so those are one and then the one we're having the lion's mane is is great for brain um it has these couple compounds that can penetrate the blood-brain barrier and help rejuvenate your nerve growth factors and and um before we started we briefly talked about your recovery from sweden and i always found that if you do a tough race and you push yourself to the limit the recovery of the nervous system was always much much harder than the recovery of the actual muscles or the lungs. And even at some track, if you run track or something, you sometimes

get yourself in really bad shape. And I think it's the nervous system. And so, Lion's Mane is great for that. I use it when I have to study or write or focus. That's when I kind of use it. Cool. And so, what are some of the others? I know in the book you go through, I think you go through 10? Yeah, 10. I think the ones that people should be on the lookout for is probably shiitake because it's so commonly available. And there's amazing ways. In the book, I show how people make shiitake bacon. And just using a little bit like maple syrup and you know a little bit of oil and spices

and you put it in the oven you can make this crispy thing and actually with mushrooms applying heat and lipids actually makes them more bioavailable and better so it's it's it's a food that even if you would rather wise prefer eating raw or whatever it's actually better to cook those or apply heat and lipid to them so that's interesting that's like the opposite of a lot of other plant foods yeah because it's not a plant that's the point it's it has this chitin structure the cell structure that we can really process um those are by the way great prebiotics so they really help the good bacteria bacteria and fungi has always had this synergistic relationship and one of my beliefs is which is

just my belief and this could be never happen is is there will be a new kingdom discovered in my lifetime um and it's something about the symbiotic relationship this barrier like a kombucha is the scoby is you know the symbiotic relationship of bacteria yeast and yeast is taking like a fungi as well um and this world of bacteria and fungi when they live together yeah and i think i don't know this is my thought that in my lifetime there will be a new kingdom discovered that we don't yet know about that's interesting yeah i never really thought about that but there's something there for sure i think think. Yeah. But yeah, so shiitake is a good one.

You can find it almost everywhere. Enoki. In the book, I do enoki fries. So if you want comfort food and you want that like crunchy or a little greasy thing, you can always know that, okay, you're craving for it. How can you upgrade it you know either doing like sweet potato chips or you know doing enoki fries it's like a way of like serving that craving but in a like a mindful way right and so that enoki is pretty easy to find and then maitake also known as hen of the woods is is a thing actually the taki in okitaki shi taki my taki

it's japanese and take means otaki in in more in an english way means mushroom in japanese so a lot of this knowledge is is based from like russia and um japan and then in the tcm the traditional chinese medicine they obviously really locked it in. It's like, how do these like key mushrooms like cordyceps and reishi affect our bodies? Right. They've like institutionalized it. Yeah. And, you know, they obviously, because of that, they get a lot of attention in the herbal world. You know, traditional Chinese medicine.

I think the real frontier is in somewhere in Amazon, but they never wrote it down. So the Chinese did a good job by documenting it so that whole world there remains to be discovered in large part right i mean at in general like we've discovered like a fraction of all the estimated of one point so they estimate there's 1.5 million different types of fungi in the world so and that's based on that if that's true which nobody knows but if that is true that. If that's true, which nobody knows, but if that is true, that means that there's six times more

different types of fungi in the world than there is plants. Right, that's so crazy. So just, and there's so many plants, you know, just to give you the diversity. And I think the ocean, both for plant life, but also for fungi is this uncharted territory that we'll find a lot of knowledge. And I mentioned the mushroom that can eat plastic that was discovered in Amazon. And I think there's a lot of stuff that we'll, we'll be learning. So that's, I feel like I'm still like on first grade with learning everything from mushrooms. I'm just like scratching the surface after all these years. One of the things you said at the outside of this conversation was that at a very early age, you knew that you weren't interested in creating a business that caters to the 1%, right?

And right now we're in West Los Angeles. to the one percent right and and right now we're in west los angeles you know we're we're in the we're at the epicenter of kind of you know wellness elitism it's ground zero for sure you know what i mean yeah yeah and and it's fun to like talk about exotic superfoods and and you know uh artisanal kombucha and all this kind of bullshit, right? But where does that fall in the context of just the average person who's trying to do a little bit better and live a little bit better? And I think that these barriers have been erected that have led those types of people to think that this lifestyle is inaccessible or perhaps they're even alienated by it because of the vernacular that surrounds it and the price tag tags that attach to it.

So let's talk a little bit about like how you think about wellness and how you, um, conceptualized four sigmatic and how you, you run it because you have democratized the mushroom in a very large way because you haven't positioned or marketed your company to be this elitist thing. They come in these individual packets. It's affordable stuff. It's not like crazy price tags. And I can tell in your messaging and the way you conduct yourself and we've known each other for years that you really do want to be able to just share this message with, with everybody and change their perspective on how these things can improve people's lives. Yeah. I don't know how is this relatable,

but my brain sometimes works in like graphs and things I look at visually and and i had this six e's that i before the company was started i was looking like how can you make lasting like actual lasting wide change in people's health and well-being and i came with these six e's and what we're doing now is we're focused on the education part of it right but and that like that will get you to a certain point but that will like not cater you to the end because like you said it has to be economical needs to be easy to use it needs to be easy to purchase you know it needs to be effective like that's actually a huge one that effective like you feel it you benefit from it so my my point being is you got

to work on all them and i mean we have still a lot to go but i feel like to touch a few things you said is i feel really happy of all the years of not being able to pay first couple years any salary like zero and to be in a point that last year the mushroom coffee has become on amazon the number one instant coffee and the number one coffee substitute and the the hot cocoa the reishi hot cocoa has become like number two or number three hot cocoa passing swiss miss and nestle that's crazy and starbucks via we and just on amazon so it's still like yeah but it's a it's still like a place where middle america yeah that's a mainstream audience of people. Yeah, it's not. Was there a tipping point?

Did something happen? Like how did, you know, because, you know, I remember the early days, right? And you were just, you know, we'd be at the food products expo west, you know, or whatever it is. And in our world, like everybody was using your stuff and maybe we were, but like it was clear, like you know, like, how are you going to get this message to connect with the average person? I mean, it's that classic, um, one night wonder that has been 10 years in the making type of stuff. Um, so it's a lot of stuff coming together and a lot of people and a lot of work, but to touch upon that is, is like one thing was just getting the product price to like a dollar fifty a dollar a serving it's still not like the world's cheapest coffee or hot cocoa but it's like in a point where okay

if i live in arkansas or i'm like i'm making you know 40 grand a year and i'm like you know whatever the average 37 000 is like uh like Yeah. And you know, they still go to Starbucks or they go to a cafe and they, you know, that dollar for them, if they really love coffee or, or whatever, it's, it's somewhat obtainable. So that was one. And, and there was obviously a lot of, you know, education to go with it and making it easy to use but i think one thing that was on our side which i can't take any credit for is that why i think kale became popular back in the day when it did or i guess coconut water to a certain extent is like for an average consumer outside of west la it's like easy to imagine a lettuce that is like a super lettuce. And kale is like, you might've even seen kale.

It's like, yeah, I've seen it in the restaurants. Instead of an exotic super berry that even then, you know, and so for someone, cause shiitake or like lion's mane or turkey tail or chaga, they all grow in the US. So these are all things that are in different parts of this country. And I think generally people have seen the mushroom and they might not know what are the health benefits

or which mushroom is better than the other or how do we prepare it. So they didn't have like the toolbox, but they've seen the image. You know, they've seen it that like, okay, this is, I'm familiar with it. So it's, I feel like that helped us with it so it's it's i feel like that helped us that it's not it's a little bit less of a stretch because they can like visualize it versus right the goji berry which i love but it's like a harder stretch it's like how's that even look like you know right like what is a moringa yeah yeah i mean you know yeah it's where does that grow in some part of the world, I'll never visit, you know?

Correct. Yeah. And, you know, so I think that really helped us out as well, is like people could visualize it before they felt the benefits. And, but I think at end of the day comes the fact that the product needs to work, you know, and it needs to be enjoyable. And then the education and ease of use. You got to get the taste right.

Correct. That must have been a process oh they taste gnarly yeah i'm not gonna lie is they to the point is like a lot of the healthiest things that you can use in the herbal and fungi world they taste pretty strong and i guess your friend in the lab was focused on the efficacies and building those but um it's it's not an easy job to kind of break down those bitter flavors into a model that's why coffee and cocoa might have been popular because those are the two bitters that most people enjoy like people who don't eat bitters and don't like dandelion you know drops or whatever they might still have a black coffee or a dark chocolate

so i feel like that was that really helped us out while it's on the flavor side. Let's talk about the, the sourcing of this stuff. You know, to the extent that we have an awareness that, that mushrooms grow and exist. I know that you forage, you, you forage for some of these and then other ones are, are grown in farms and like, how does that work? And why is that important and what's important about it? Sure. So with anything, you got to look at not just like, oh, coconut water, you know?

It's like you got to look at multiple things like the genus. Like there's multiple different types of cordyceps. There's multiple different types of reishi. So what is the type of what you're using? Then you've got to use which part. Is it, you know, is it the fruiting body? Is it the mycelium? But also like in like, let's say ashwagandha, tulsi or ginseng or even nettle.

Are you using the leaf or using the root? And those are two different things. And then where have they grown? But also like how are they processed? So the process thing is a big part of it. Especially with mushrooms, because they're most of them are not by available raw. Like I said, it's like this kaiten.

So you have to cook them almost like multiple hours called a decoction. So if you make a tea, you steep it, it's called an infusion. It's like, you know, three to five minutes. Coffee as well. It's like, it's a brew, but it's like an infusion. But these ones you have to like cook, like it's called an infusion it's like you know three to five minutes coffee as well as like it's a brew but it's like an infusion but these ones you have to like cook like it's called a decoction use a slow cooker or something like you really like have to give it a lot of heat and like

i said lipids or alcohol to those tincture bottles that you see in some stores that's another way of getting the adaptogenic properties out but to answer your question even though these grow in in north america unfortunately there is really no collecting network of like average americans going into the woods picking these out yet and you know who knows maybe in 10 years that will happen so most most north american mushroom products are grown in laboratories in grains. So they're usually grown in rice or something. But they're native to trees. So I think one way to make the mushrooms even greater is you grow it in a log. So you take decaying trees where they normally grow.

So these mushrooms love growing in dying trees or dead trees. And they just like compost that. And you take that and you put the mushroom spores kind of into the log, and then you grow it in a greenhouse. And some of them really it's hard to grow or impossible to grow, so you forge for them like turkey tail and chaga. But those are widely – like we get our chaga from Siberia and from this forest called taiga, T-A-I-G-A.

And that forest is completely like the size of the United States. So it's not like a small place. And it's crazy. You would think, well, what could you possibly forage from Siberia, right? A lot. So it's actually funny, but some of the best things we can ever eat come from one of the extremes. Either from an area where nothing grows there are extramariles or pioneers anything from an olive to a birch tree is a

pioneer or maca in the high andes or these rhodiola and eulithero the siberian ginseng that grows in like really harsh climates and when nothing else grows they find a way to survive and this survival mechanism is that energy those nutrients that we need those saponins and terpenes and all these difficult words and then the other one is the most lush biodiverse thing where there's no banana plantation but next to the banana there's a mango and there's a tobacco and there's like a cow and there's you go to kawaii hawaii or i don't know like you go to the jungle in costa rica and and there's 1500 different types of bird shitting on and making the soil more nutrient dense but tends to be one of the extremes it's like incredibly biodiverse lush environment or the extremely rough where only these few things survive where there's high

nutrient density so right very cool um and then let's talk about let's talk about the processing i mean one of the things that that you guys do that is i guess relatively unique in your in your business in your world is this dual just dual extraction process So explain what that is and why that's important. Well, the worst anecdote of the day is that it's like shampoo and conditioner together. No, I'm kidding. But basically, if you've used these mushroom products before, you've usually had to buy two products.

You buy this hot water extract that usually encapsules or powders, and they have high amounts of these water soluble compounds these polysaccharides and beta glugans that we talked about and then he went separately and bought this tincture bottle that uses alcohol to extract these like more adaptogenic properties out and we just combine those so you get the kind of two-in-one you get the polysaccharides and you get the more adaptogenic properties. That's like overly simplistically.

But if you're at home and you're like, I really didn't understand anything this guy just said. Like, what are they talking about? If you're at home and you go to a grocery store and buy a shiitake and just like using it in a soup or sauteing it with coconut oil or whatever, just knowing that if you apply heat and usually fats is the way to like unlock their healing powers even further and and i would also argue that

tastes drastically better when you like mushrooms when you cook them or saute them and they just like get crispier and the mouthfeel gets better and there's a lot of stuff that happens there that from a flavor and health benefit is really uh makes them like amazing so beyond the the the taste what you're really saying is that it this process allows the nutrients to become bioavailable for you right like if you just if you don't do that and you eat it it's going through your system but your body's not able to absorb or utilize the the full benefit of what correct so the cell structure of them is something you can really absorb in that way and you have to unlock them and this is partly in the plant kingdom as well there's certain things you

have to ferment to really get them out or cook them or somehow like um to make your body more ready for it so you have to make them bioavailable otherwise they really are just fiber in your gut you know and they pass through your body and you really don't get the the bang for the buck so to say i think that raises a a much larger issue about the whole you know superfood and supplement industry at large you know you go to air one you go to whole foods you go to any any place where you can buy these types of products these you know the acai and the moringa and the you know whatever belgarian rose water like 60 a bottle crazy like super expensive super food stuff yeah um and we have no idea how this stuff is harvested, where it was grown, how it was

dried, how it was, you know, processed and packaged and shipped. We don't know the timeframe. We don't know any, we don't know anything about it. So he's like, Oh, Moringa, you know, you just buy that. And, you know, my conversations with Darren, he's like, I'm telling you, you know, 99% of these products, you, you, you'll get them and you'll use them and it's either the nutrients either are not bioavailable or they've been destroyed as a result of the way these these products were grown harvested you know yeah dried whatever it is that goes into getting them to the

store everybody needs a friend like darren who's like obsessed so i know i guess but with internet it is like these people are available but it is educate yourself you can't just go to the store and pull it off the shelf because it has a pretty package on it yeah but it's a lot of work i can also relate like if look if you're um if you're like a single mom or you're working 60 70 hours a week like i don't want yeah like how can you know like and it's pretty hard and um you know we made this for ourselves it's like we we don't really have a connection with our food as much anymore and and but it's it's hard i'm i'm not gonna lie it's yeah i i mean i'm in the industry and i do it all

day long and i'm still like puzzled by like is this good i'm like how is it made which part on this thing and like i don't know like I think it's supposed to be, but. Yeah. And though there is a system that is not bulletproof, but I think is better than most people think. And it's just your instinct. I think there is something to be said about listening to your body.

Once you consume it, how you feel. When you taste it, how does it feel like? And if you just tune into it within from all this external noise and within and you consume something um you kind of feel it and i think same goes for movement and relationships is like if you just like trust your gut and you often kind of have a pretty good clue i mean it's not 100 but you have i think you're more accurate than you think or we let ourselves think is is if you just listen to your body and and kind of tune in and kind of meditate on it and you often i feel like no if it's if it's

working for you particularly because something might be great for someone else but it might be as well so yeah i think that's right i think i think as prefatory to that though you have to you have to be uh on that path of of being committed to connecting with yourself though because we live in a disconnected world and and most people are disconnected and i think their instincts are leading them astray because of that disconnection but i would love i don't know who would do this but there would be like a community or a challenge or a play where 30 days every day you go to a grocery store you learn the source and the history and the myth and the details of one plant like 30 days 30 plants and really look and it can be obvious that would be great like somebody should do that like a

potato like a lot of people like in in finland people think it's the most finished thing to eat ever potato it's like oh potato it's like a normal and like a lot of people think it's like a local food because it does grow in finland but you know just the story of how it is from peru and like how there's different colors and shapes and sizes and where's the potato i'm buying? Like, where is it from? And how was it grown? And like just doing, you know, 30 days of that or, and finding out and just one a day, just one time. And you just go and Google, like, it's not, it doesn't, you don't need it. You don't need to go to the store with Darren, even though that would be great. I want to go to the store with Darren and just.

You'll never leave though. You'll be there like all day. Yeah. Every product will like inspire him to go on a mon though. You'll be there all day. Yeah. Every product will like inspire him to go on a monologue. I'll take it. But I mean, just like Google a little bit and, and, and ask the store staff or a farmer's market always would be like an ideal scenario. And just like, where's this from? You know, what is the country? What is the area? Which part, you know, and just looking at at it like looking at the lettuce yeah

the guy at ralph's is probably not going to be able to tell you probably not but um yeah that's why google is so amazing isn't it like you can get a lot of a lot of information but yeah so what do you i know you got the book coming out soon that's exciting um healing mushrooms coming out october 10th right yeah over 10th um but with respect to four sigmatic like what are you guys working on or what's coming up next or what are you excited about yeah it's actually it's that's that's been a tough question for me is like coming from finland i feel like and maybe this is just la and new york but i feel like everybody's always crushing it and killing it. And like, and they're always,

they seem to be so assertive and know what to do. You know, they're like, oh, do this. And then, well, you know. I don't think they do. They're just, most people are fun to have. Probably not. And I usually like when people ask me this, like they want some elaborate, like,

oh, Four Sigmatic will be the new Starbucks or like whatever answer that is big enough and ambitious enough to make them excited but i usually reply that with this anecdote of push-ups if you're with a trainer and you say the trainer says 10 push-ups they rarely say 9 or 11 right they're like 10 or 12 or 15 or But you know, what if you can only do four and then your form sucks? Like, and then you hurt yourself, you push yourself. And sometimes you have to push yourself, but you also don't want to push yourself with hurting yourself or your back or something. But what if you do 10, but your potential was 50? I think this is probably everything David

Goggins talks about, right? It's like when you you can you're like halfway right right and uh what if you're limiting the greatest potential you have with this number of 10 right and to me like building a business or life in general is kind of like that push-up and the form you should do as many as you can with the form without thinking of this number and the form to me is like growing as a human being and then also having fun so like what is my form and it's hard to live in uncertainty but that's it's kind of where it is like you have to go day by day month by month year by year and see where it goes and and and that's how i look at as also building for sigmatic is seeing how things go. But it's difficult.

For me, it's as well difficult to live in uncertainty. It would be easier to say is like, in five years, we will be here, you know? And it would be clear. And I see the power of goal setting. Don't get me wrong. I'm a huge believer. I feel like every time I write something,

it does usually happens. It's incredibly powerful. But at the same time like i think the true happiness comes if you can just like concentrate on the form and that's just that one push-up at a time one mile at a time kind of like an ultra is like if you if you run the first five and you're like you know and you know another 50 to go you're like oh my god like you just have to be in the moment of what you're doing and and try to inject as much awareness and consciousness and presence into

that i mean that's what i'm hearing you saying it's like yeah you want to stretch and you want to expand and grow and do all these things but like let's take a beat like where are we at with this emotionally mentally and spiritually like what's the next best thing for us to do rather than just you know cheerlead ourselves to some destination because we feel like that's what we're supposed to do as entrepreneurs and look like there is problems that i don't have answers to right now that a company has when they grow and like they develop but rather than asking like how can we be starbucks or how can we sell in x years or how can we ip all this company or whatever the classic startup things are that people say in this situation it's also like how

can we grow like not revenues but like how can we grow how can we make better products how can we improve our community and how can we improve our messaging impact the people that are your customers and then like how can we have more fun like for us as well because you're the fun guy yeah touche touche yeah no i like it i mean i've watched you know from arm's length uh you know i've seen i've seen your journey i mean you yeah the first time we met it was i think we had like four products when you started you started in 2012 yeah and then you rebranded like you kind of tweaked the name yeah was that in 2015 or something yeah and uh but we met before that i feel like was it canada 2013 i think that's right yeah but we already knew like and travis

and there was like a bunch of mutual friends but i feel like that dinner we sat down next to each other and or that event in in ontario i think that was yeah yeah but yeah that was cool i remember that well yeah long way to go i think we made so many mistakes yeah but you've made huge progress like there is there is mainstream awareness of your company which is like that's no small feat but i think you've grown kind of in lockstep. Like you've, you, you're not trying to expand too quickly. Like I I've seen you make like smart moves and I've seen patients and I see you guys giving back, like you donate a portion of proceeds, don't you? Yeah. We have this contribution program. Um, we especially

work with this organization boarding for breast cancer but yeah we're like deeply committed and by the way if anybody's there's listening and they have an idea an organization that is particularly focused on cancer on research or something like that we're really looking at other people who could partner up and maybe support them in the research of cancer or just like we do with boarding for breast cancer sponsoring them and their survivors it's a non-profit why did you select that area um it's like most of the team that we have we have a lot of cancer and in the family so it's like deeply personal it's also like the second leading cause of death um like right second close second to cardiovascular disease and so it's a big thing um i went to

actually run a marathon in southern france and i was i was talking the night before with this guy who came to there for a cancer like a conference symposium or whatever they call it like he's in some sort of a super cancer expert and he was saying is like is like not only the current research kind of indicates that roughly one in two will have cancer but every person will have cancer at some point of their life they just like their immune system might be stronger than with the every second developing cancer cells correct and they come and go yeah correct and he was saying is like that's the that's one of the biggest myths in his field which i'm no expert in

so i'm not even going to pretend but what he was saying is like look like everybody will have cancer multiple times and they just come and go and and your body will like if your immune system is strong enough you will able to fight it and it's actually just like body's own ability also to balance this body this homeostasis and and it happens so that was a deeply personal thing and and there's some promising research on mushrooms and cancer again not a thing where i'm no expert in and i think probably more research is coming but we you know collaborate with bunch of amazing doctors and if if you're uh familiar with it there is you know you and she talking my talkie turkey tail there's all these amazing, like, and Turkey Tail, these Pulsac, Great Crestin, and Peptide, and their promise, how they've been used in Japan.

And there's all this amazing stuff, a promise, you know, whatever the end result might be, there's like hope, I would say. And so that's why we're kind of excited. um hope i would say and so that's that's why we're kind of excited and so if if you can just contact me through uh our company website and our team will get get back to send it to me so if you know somebody who's doing research or has an organization in that field we would love to collaborate with some somebody some other organizations besides just supporting for breast cancer. Beautiful man. All right. Well, before we close this down,

I think a good way to, to kind of end it would be to leave people with a few ideas about how they can embark upon their, their, their new relationship with the world of mycelium, mycelium, mycelium. So my son is a part of fun guy. Right.

But I mean, I'm kind of just mean fungi in general you know what i mean like okay it's like okay this mushroom thing all right i'm ready to like learn more obviously you know taro's book healing mushrooms comes out october 10th and uh he basically it's you did a great job man this is going to help a lot of people like it not only is it your story but you kind of walk people through, you know, step by step how to understand this and the health implications and benefits here. So I think it's going to help a lot of people. It's great. So check that out.

But like if you're like, okay, like what do I do? I could go to the grocery store. Obviously, you know, you have your products, but how can people, you know, better sort of bring these things into their life? Well, I think this is already a great starting point. so if you've listened to this whole thing you're already well on your way you already know more than 98 of the population on this so um our company also offers so the book is out and that's obviously like kind of the world's first kind of cookbook on these things and really kind of what we talked about back in the day is like when you wrote your book it was your story and like why you are doing what you're doing but then the question is like how so in this book i have like 50 unique recipes and how to really utilize where

to buy them if you're interested in foraging part particularly i recommend contacting like your local my you know um mycologist association and almost every big city will have one and just like getting to know people already doing it versus going by yourself and just, you know, finding some. Mycology association? Yeah.

Really, like every city has one of those? Yeah, then they're actually, you would be surprised pretty much. Like there's a- What kind of dude shows up at that? Also women. Uh-huh those women actually mushrooms are originally more forged by women so it's this like i don't know it's like people are into that world like yeah and women and that's one of the reasons why it's a theory why mushrooms went out of style in anglo-Saxon cultures was this witch hunt. So women were responsible for the knowledge

and the healing powers of fungi. And they would go around and distribute their healing powers. And maybe, or maybe not, there were some psychedelic mushrooms involved. Right. Hence the witchcraft. And then the witchcraft came and they got labeled as witches and it became a thing because it was associated with their behaviors like that's one of the

theories why they assume where in other cultures like slavic cultures or asia they're incredibly popular and normal part of your daily life you go to russia or you go to you know even south and germany like people love mushrooms but then why in these anglo-saxon cultures it was almost like demonized and one of the theories is this relationship with women and mushrooms which is very strong interesting that's a whole book unto itself i think would be really interesting probably not the right person to tell the story of women and mushrooms that's a wild story though i yeah and and to that point is like there's and there's your local experts who can help you out if you're interested in foraging. And obviously the book will hopefully answer a lot of the questions.

And when you go to your grocery store, you should pretty much every grocery store in America, including Ralph's, will carry the shiitakes of the world. And I would just say it's like instead of getting the butter mushroom, the portobello mushroom, try to look for shiitake enoki oyster mushroom and if another cool thing is i would have to give a shout out no way affiliated with them but back to the roots is this startup that makes mushroom growing kits called mushroom farms and basically you can grow these oyster mushrooms that are incredibly nutritious and also a great way of like taste out this meaty structure and those ones you can grow in coffee grinds, like use coffee grinds. And you can grow it at home. And it's an amazing way.

Also, if you have kids, what an amazing gift you can give to your kids is like growing mushrooms at home. And this can be done in a condo in New York City. So this doesn't require you to be in a farm. It comes in a little box and just an amazing thing they've created and and you know just teaching your uh children and also teaching yourself is like how do you grow different kinds of foods and this fungi is one of the things and oyster is probably one of the easiest to grow so check that out as well if that resonated at all yeah awesome well i'll put a link up to that in the show notes um and also you know know, the Four Sigmatic website has,

you have lots of cool blog posts there that kind of go into detail about this stuff. Yeah, and, you know, hopefully make it entertaining as well. And we try to share recipes and whatnot on social. And, you know, same as you and Julie are doing is just like trying to also answer how and when and instead of just the why, which is the why is really the starting point. But very soon you ask like how and when and instead of just the why which is the why is really the starting

point but very soon you ask like how and and when and where and all that you go on your journey yeah exactly so you too can be a fun guy yeah yeah and we have this mushroom Academy as well it's like a free e-learning course on mushrooms so if you really want to kick out there's three levels three courses it's 100 free and you can study more about that but um yeah that's a good starting point and if you're in venice can people come by the shroom room yeah so uh funny story the most kind of random story and actually clink with our mutual friend travis and to travis before we moved to la travis was like the first person i really met and through travis i met teeny teeny teeny has handle only with love makes this beautiful jewelry insane jewelry and she has this totally cool workshop space yeah abakini and one night teeny text me or call me

i can't remember which one it was but it was like midnight i was i should have not been up but i was up and he's like taro i got you a space like this is the spot you have to like that night i'm like calling the landlord at middle of the night like locking in this space on apokini in venice beach california so if you happen to go into venice beach california and uh it's quite near er. We have this little shroom room, and you can get free mushrooms there. You can just come over, and we sell handmade mugs, mushroom mugs, and wooden mugs, and mushroom T-shirts. And we actually, Travis makes these pans, these ninja pans, so we make mushroom ninja pans.

And just a community to have a cup of mushrooms of uh mushrooms on us and uh hang out and talk about all things fungi awesome man yeah talking to you yeah thanks for having me yeah that was super fascinating i mean i learned a ton there's still so much to learn um and uh very helpful you know it's just it's it's enlightening and illuminating to realize that there's this whole world out there that uh that i still have so much exploration you know to go through and i think most people do so thank you for the work that you do and bringing this awareness to the world and uh and helping people achieve better health man it's cool and i'm excited for the new book and the journey that you're on and i'm here to support you every way i can thanks you've already done a lot and uh for this episode you should do uh the mushroom emoji and and peace oh yeah we'll do that yeah like one time instead of a piece and then the plants i'll put a

mushroom yeah for one time yeah that's good i love that yeah cool man all right thanks for having me digging on on tarot again, pick up the new book. Healing Mushrooms available everywhere October 10th. Currently available for pre-order, of course, right? Yep. And foursigmatic.com. Super cheap. What is it going to cost?

16 bucks and probably somewhere less. Yeah, nice, man. Good. Unnamed online outlet, probably. Yeah, wherever you buy your books. Yeah. And support independent bookstores as well oh for sure um foursigmatic.com and where else can people connect with you

i'm really bad with social i have like a private instagram i am tarot but i try to put out good content through foursigmatic so f-o-u-r-s-i-g-m-a-t-i-c and that's on instagram too and twitter and twitter i don't know. Facebook. Probably all of the usual suspects. All right, man. Cool. Peace and mushrooms.

Awesome. Fascinating, right? I know. Unbelievable. And we only scratched the very surface of what this whole crazy mushroom kingdom is all about and how it can be an incredible benefit to our health and vitality. I've been using Tarot stuff for years, but if all of this is brand new to you, Tarot was nice enough to create a cool giveaway for you guys, something he calls

120 Days on Shrooms. They're giving away a 120 day supply of mushrooms to five lucky fans of the RRP. Basically, they're putting together a bundle of my two favorite Four Sigmatic products, the Cordyceps Elixir, four boxes of that, which is amazing pre-workout, as well as mushroom coffee with lion's mane, four boxes of that to replace your morning, Joe. I'm telling you, this stuff will light you up. It's unbelievable. As well as a copy of Tarot's new book, Healing Mushrooms. To enter, simply take a screen grab of this podcast episode on your mobile device or your

computer and then post it on social media, on Twitter, Facebook, or Instagram. And importantly, make sure that you tag it. Use the tag, hashtag Rich and Tarot, T-E-R-O. And that way we'll be able to see it and you'll be entered into the giveaway. That giveaway, the period of this ends on October 10th. So you got to do it right away. Also, you must be a U.S. resident to enter for shipping purposes. Again, this is not a paid sponsorship thing.

I don't benefit financially from this whatsoever. It's just a cool thing Tara wanted to do for you guys. That's it. Also, don't forget to pick up his book, Healing Mushrooms. It drops tomorrow, 10-10, at least on the date that I am recording this. And follow Four Sigmatic on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. It's F-O-U-R Sigmatic. Easy to find.

How's the plate doing? You guys eating right? Are you eating more plants? Have you checked out the meal planner yet? So many people struggle. I put together this amazing tool. easy to find. How's the plate doing? You guys eating right? Are you eating more plants? Have you checked out the meal planner yet? So many people struggle. I put together this amazing tool. It solves all of your problems. Basically, when you sign up for this incredible service that we recently created, you'll get access to hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of plant-based recipes, unlimited meal plans and grocery lists. Everything's metric system compliant. And it's

all really personalized and customized based on your specific goals, your food preferences, your allergies, your time constraints. We have an incredible customer support team. These people are experts. They live and breathe this stuff. They have graduate degrees. They're athletes. We even have grocery delivery. I used to say in 22 metropolitan areas, but they just corrected me and said that now it's up to 60. So that's incredible. This is life-changing stuff, you guys. Essentially, everything you need to start eating healthier and make it stick. So if this sounds cool to you, you can check out what the offering is all about at meals.richroll.com or click on meal planner at the top menu at richroll.com. The whole program is available to you for just $1.90 a week when you sign up for a year.

Totally affordable. That was a big priority in putting this together. I wanted to create a product that everybody could enjoy and I'm proud of it. I'm really proud of it, which is why I keep talking about it. Anyway, meals.richroll.com, check it out. Finally, another quick reminder.

My 51st birthday is coming up October 20th. I'm using it to try to do something good. I'm trying to raise $51,000 for charity water to help bring clean water to those most in need. And I need your help to get there. Come on, you guys. It's the giving season. So please consider a one-time gift of $51, $1 for every year. I have been drinking clean water on planet earth. To learn more, visit my campaign page, my fundraising page at my.charitywater.org forward slash ritual. Also put that link up in the show notes. And while we're talking about show notes, please always make a point of checking out the show notes on the episode page for not only

this episode, but for all episodes. We put a lot of time and effort into creating essentially a bibliography, all kinds of links and resources to really extend the experience of the podcast beyond just what you're hearing and putting it more into action. And we've got lots of great links up there for Tarot and this episode as well. If you would like to support this show and my work, share it with your friends and on social media, leave a review on iTunes, hit that subscribe button. We also have a Patreon set up for people who want to support my work, but I'm asking that if you're one of those people who's thinking about throwing me a few bucks, I appreciate that very much, but at least through my birthday, why don't we throw

that at Charity Water instead? I'd much rather have that money go towards those people who need it much more than myself. Also, I send a free weekly short email out every week called roll call five or six things I stumbled across over the course of the week, a video, I watched a documentary, a couple articles, a new product I'm enjoying, just stuff like that. No affiliate links. I'm not trying to make any money off this, uh, just a way for me to share things that interest and inspire me, um, and kind of cut through the morass of social media where stuff just tends to get lost in people's crazy timelines and all that kind of stuff. So that's it. I want to thank everybody who helped put on the show today. Jason Camiello

for audio engineering and production, Sean Patterson for all his graphic wizardry, David Zamet, the newest member of the team for all his video work. And he started taking portraits of all of the guests, which are amazing work. And he started taking portraits of all of the guests, which are amazing. We're going to start building that into this experience. He made a video behind the scenes of the Tarot episode, and he's finishing up a video that goes more in depth into my conversation with Tarot. So keep an eye out for that. You can go to youtube.com forward slash rich roll to see all my videos there and theme music as always by Anna Lemma. But as I pointed out the other day,

Jason Camiolo, our engineer, also writes a lot of the interstitial music. Those are some of his original compositions. So thank you, Jason, for that. You can find him on social media at Jason Camiolo, C-A-M-I-O-L-O. And David Zim, also on Instagram, David Z-A-M-M-I-T. Thanks for the love, you guys. I'll see you back here soon. Peace, David, Z-A-M-M-I-T. Thanks for the love, you guys. I'll see you back here soon. Peace, plants, mushrooms. Namaste. Thank you.