The Rich Roll Podcast - Heidi Zuckerman: Why Art Matters

Episode Date: August 8, 2022

What defines art? What makes one an artist? What does art teach us—and why does it matter? To help us make sense of a world elusive to many, today I convene with the singular Heidi Zuckerman. A woman I’ve known for over 30 years, Heidi has devoted her entire professional career to understanding art, the people who make art, and why we should care. Heidi currently serves as CEO and Director of the Orange County Museum of Art, where she is overseeing construction of a spectacular new building designed by legendary architect Thom Mayne of Morphosis, scheduled to open in October 2022. In addition, she hosts Conversations About Art (a podcast on which I was privileged to be a guest) and is the author of the Conversations with Artists book series. This is a conversation about art. In addition to tracking Heidi’s career arc, we discuss what defines art, what makes for great art, why we should care about art, and why artists matter. We discuss the barriers to accessing art. How art can and should be democratized. And the role of art and artists in this era of offense and content overload. On a personal level, this one is very meaningful given my long history with Heidi. I really enjoyed this conversation—I hope you learn as much as I did. Watch: YouTube. Read: Show notes Peace + Plants, Rich

What I say is that if the person who made it says it's art, then it's art. So it's all about the intention. It's about the intention of the creator. You know, I think that art matters because it's a way of communicating things that have no other way to be told. It's like an alternate language. to be told. It's like an alternate language. So art for me communicates things that everything else fails short to do. The Rich Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast.

Today, we're gonna talk about art, how to define it, how to understand it, and why it matters. My conversational partner for this affair is a big shot in this world, and a woman I've known since I was about 21. Her name is Heidi Zuckerman. Heidi spent 14 years as the CEO and director of the Aspen Art Museum, where she successfully reimagined it as a world-class institution. And she's currently the CEO and director of the Orange County Museum of Art. Prior to both, she held posts at Berkeley Art Museum and Pacific Film Archive and was a curator at the Jewish Museum in New York.

A global authority on contemporary art who has curated literally hundreds of exhibitions over the years, Heidi also hosts the podcast, Conversations About Art, on which I was privileged to be a guest, and is the author of the Conversations With Artists book series.

This one is admittedly a little bit different from my usual fare, but very special as Heidi herself is a very special person. And it's coming right up, but first. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well

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Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. Okay, Heidi. In addition to tracking Heidi's career arc, this one is about art, obviously. It's about what defines art, what makes for great art, why we should care about art,

essentially why art matters. We discuss the barriers to access and how art can and should be democratized. We talk about the role of art and artists in this era of offense and content overload. We also talk about the future of art, her perspective on NFTs and the role of the blockchain. She decodes Marfa for me and what we can learn about ourselves and the world from her countless long form conversations with many of the world's most important artists. I really enjoyed this conversation on a personal level. This one is very meaningful given my long history with Heidi,

and I hope you dig it. So here we go. This is me and Heidi Zuckerman. I can't believe you're here. Me neither. The more I think about like the tapestry of our lives and how they've overlapped at certain weird stages over the years, like the more surreal it is. It's pretty wild to like sit across from you with all of this weird history.

And I, the same, you know, I just got back from Dallas and had my YPO forum there. We spent the day with Rand Stegan and I kind of track getting back in touch with you to him. And so many things in my life kind of come from him. So I agree. Yeah, I was just in Miami and did a YPO event there. I'm sure.

I like hosted this whole like conference recently. We'll talk about the YPO stuff. Okay. But I mean, going way back just for people that are watching or listening, we met, I think it was 91 around that time, maybe 92, something like that. I was dating your sister, Laura,

and I got quite close with your whole family. Like I've been to your house in Huntington and like- Which is gone. I know, yeah, I know. I know Gary and your mom, how are they? Are they good? Yeah, so we just got back from celebrating Gary's 70th birthday in London.

And my mom had not gone on a plane across the ocean in a really long time. And she wanted everyone to come to their lake house to celebrate his birthday. And I said, I can't on March 24th, I'm gonna be in London visiting Emerson. And I said, you guys should come, we should celebrate his birthday there.

And they picked up what I put down and it kind of was a life-changing moment for them. So I can tell you a little bit more about it, but it was great. It's so interesting. I mean, I have like a lot of very kind of vivid flashes from that period of time, little weird memories, but I think you were working at a gallery downtown,

if memory serves me, around that era. Yeah, I think so. I mean, I started at the Jewish Museum in 1993 and- It was before that. Yeah. Yeah. So I had a couple different jobs like Stux Gallery and for Ann LeVay and so yeah, 91, 92. Right. Yeah.

And Laura was doing acting. And I remember going to a site specific theater performance that was in like an abandoned house. Like in the meat packing district? I think so. Well, that was a different one. I remember that one too. That was crazy.

And she was working with Darren Aronofsky and had worked on Pie and Requiem for a Dream. Yes. It was just a really cool time to be in New York. I feel like it was a moment where New York was still very dynamic, but you could feel that that was not gonna persist much longer. It was definitely edgy.

And the intersection between what Laura was doing, which started out as theater, cause she had been at NYU, but it's really veering into performance art. And it was kind of a time in the art world before people, I mean, of course there was performance art in the 70s, but what she was doing really kind of predated a lot of the self-focused work that came after that.

And now she's married and lives in Copenhagen? Yes. Yeah, has kids and stuff like that. Is she good? She's good too. I'm glad to hear that. So they were all in London and we did this thing where I suggested it and some people were more comfortable

and other people were less comfortable. But the idea was to go around the table and everyone to say something that they love about Gary and to use that language. And then when we got to Gary, whose birthday it was, he had to say something that he loved about himself. And Mike, my brother went first and then Laura went. And I don't know if they used love.

I think they said, you know, like one of the things I like. And then Laura's older son said, you know, one of the things I love about Gary. And it just kind of changed the whole tone. And it was very moving. Yeah, that's sweet. That's cool. That phase of our lives was only the beginning

because we've crisscrossed, we have lots of mutual friends in common that come from very distinct and dissimilar places. Just the other day, I was with Ricky Gates. Oh yeah. He's in the middle of doing this thing that's called ultra training. Do you know about this?

I don't think so. So this is his latest project, which is taking an Amtrak train. He left his home in Santa Fe and he's just getting off at every stop and running around and doing a sort of a truncated run every street thing at every stop along the way. And he came through LA.

So I went down to downtown Los Angeles. I have a back problem right now, so I can't really run. I was like, oh, come and meet you, but we're gonna have to walk. And we just ended up walking all around the arts district and talking and he's filming it for a documentary project. And of course your name came up because it's so bizarre that like you're friends with Ricky Gates

because of the Aspen thing. Yeah. And you know how he presents himself at the intersection of like art and athleticism, like he is an artist and everything he does is some amalgam of performance art and kind of ephemera like running around is something that's not, you can't really capture unless you're filming it.

And that becomes these projects with photography and film and his writing and all of that. Like he's a very unique guy in that regard, but we had a very fond conversation about you. Thank you. Did he tell you about the Run Hut Run? He did, yes. So explain that.

The idea is that you're gonna curate one of his Run Hut Run expeditions and have artists like in residence to kind of share at the end of the day of running around. Yeah, artists and athletes. And so I'm really interested in this idea of a practice and it comes from Buddhism, right? And this idea of like a life practice. And it started for me as like a curatorial practice

and then a life practice. And then this idea of who practices. So artists practice and athletes practice. And of course musicians practice too, but what does that mean? So it's like you do something repeatedly and then you can get better at it, but also there's variety to it.

Some days you're stronger, some days you're tired, some days you are bursting with energy and ideas and other days like you have nothing, right? And so Ricky and I started talking about that and how it would be really interesting cause I'm also fascinated with this idea of kind of pushing the limits, which I know you are too. And so what's that point of like stretching people

to like being uncomfortable, but not like unbearably uncomfortable. And so this endurance idea of running or trail hiking, probably like it doesn't have to be a run, motion for five days and five nights, a hundred miles over five days at altitude and to invite, I think it can be 12 people total. So, you know, six artists and six athletes

and have everyone have that shared experience. And at the end of the day, of course, coming together and talking about, you know, what it feels like to do that. So I've sort of been training and I asked him how to train and he's notorious for like not training. He's like, just like go for an hour each Sunday and then add an hour, you know, so.

When is this happening? So we're gonna do it in, I think, August of 23. Next year, yeah. Yeah, so we were going to do it this year. And then when I took the job at the Orange County Museum of Art, I'm not good at saying no. And I said, look, even for me to do this 100 mile thing

a month before we opened the museum is like not practical. So he said, that's fine, we'll push it to 2023. But I'm sure you're on the list. And then he invited me. Yeah, like he's like, will you do it? And I was like, yeah, I didn't know when it was, but I was like, that sounds cool and unique for sure. Are we gonna sleep in that crazy bus thing?

No, we're gonna stay in these huts. So there's like a hut system, like the 10th Mountain Division had these huts at altitude. This is the original idea behind this. Yeah. Yeah. All right, well, that'll be cool. We're putting together the list. Yeah, who else is-

Lance said yes too. Oh, cool. Yeah. And who are the artists that you're thinking about for this? So I have a couple of ideas and, oh, I also asked Gretchen Bleiler and she's actually the one that introduced me to Ricky. And so she's a yes too. So the athletes are easier.

She's a badass. Than the artists. Yeah. She's a total badass and really, really close friend of mine. So I don't have any of the artists committed yet, but I've tested it on a few people, but we can use this conversation to, you know. And part of it was for me, you know,

when he asked me about it, I said, I really only feel like I can say yes if I go. And I talked to him about it a lot. And I talked to Gretchen about it. Cause at first I said, you know, I don't think I can do this. And interestingly, two days ago, I had this conversation. So I just did the Orange County half marathon. I've never done anything like that before. Well, then you could do run, hot, run. Well, yes. After I did that, I do think that I can, but it was kind of a mental thing. And so

on Friday, when it was on Sunday, I texted a friend, I said, do you wanna do this? She said, yes, and we signed up. So like no training, no, but I mean, I spent a lot of time on the trails. So anyway, I was happy with myself that I did it. And I was saying to my boyfriend, you know, like I'm just not physically brave.

I said, I'm intellectually fierce, but not physically brave. And he's like, what are you talking about? He's like, you ride a bike around London, you did this, you know, half marathon, you, you know, kayak across these things. And you know, what's your definition? Like what's the threshold?

And I think because I know all of these like incredible athletes and extreme athletes, you know, my perception of myself is not that. Well, can I suggest a bit of a reframe on it? Yes. Rather than thinking about it as something that requires you being physically brave, maybe just think about curiosity instead,

because you're a very curious person. So it's just a different lens for that curiosity. It doesn't necessarily require braveness, but it does require inquisitiveness. Like, hmm, I wonder what that would be like to have that experience. Oh, I feel a little bit of fear. That's interesting.

I wonder what that's about. Do I need to be afraid of this? And I think that like placates a lot of that anxiety. And if you've run a half marathon, there's nothing really to fear. Like you'll be fine. Well, fine. But that's what, I mean, look,

the thing with Ricky isn't gonna be a race, right? No, not at all. And the idea is to have that shared experience and be, as you're right, curious about it and get to pair up with different people at different points. So yeah, it's not a race. Yeah, cool.

Well, let's talk about art. I mean, first let's just walk through, like you've had this robust history and many different, you know, interesting positions in the art world. I mean, you're a badass in the art world now. Like you're just, you're like, I mean, it's crazy. Like the influence that you wield in this very interesting world, but like what got you interested in art from the beginning? When I was growing up, I have this story that I tell and you never met our grandmother, our father's mother, her name was Blanche.

And she decided at a young age that I would collect paperweights and that Laura would collect boxes. So every year for our birthdays, instead of a dress or a doll, she would get a box and I would get these paperweights. And so that idea of being around art objects and kind of owning things and having them in your space is something that I can't ever remember not doing or having or being. And I really put it all back to her because I was the oldest grandchild.

Our grandfather didn't like to travel. And so from the time that I was about eight, she would take me with her. And she, classic American story, born in America, first generation, Lower East Side of New York, they're furriers. She's allergic to mink. She gets sent to an orphanage at age eight, third grade education. And then in marrying my

grandfather, who was from a wealthy Canadian family, she started buying real estate in New York and she'd buy the apartments with everything in them. And that's how she started to collect art. And when she would run out of space, she would send things to our house. And so our house was filled with fine and decorative arts. All the furniture came from my grandmother, the rugs, the paintings, and my parents were not interested in any of it. It was like decor, but I was interested. And I can't really remember a time

that I wasn't interested in it, but I never thought I would pursue it as a career. I thought I'd go to law school and I wanted to be a judge from the time I was a kid. And I have a burning of the boats moment, like Joseph Campbell style that I can share. Yeah, what was that crossroads? So I was in my, I guess, junior year at Penn,

and I had had some kind of art experiences. The summer after my freshman year, I came home, looked in the phone book, saw art galleries, called everyone, lied, said that I was an art history student, looked for a job, got a job in an art gallery, did my first studio visit with an artist named Sam Francis. This was in the Bay area?

Yeah, Palo Alto. And second generation abstract expressionist, really important artists. His kids were around my age, hung out with them and went back to school, got a work study job at the ICA, Institute of Contemporary Art in Philadelphia, met Mary Boone, David Sally,

these things that now sound like really big, important things, but they were just the path, right? Without even with any kind of reality or cognizance around it. And then, I mean, a friend of mine, a guy by the name of Jonathan Guinness, who's an architect, told me that there was this program at Christie's Auction House. He said, you seem to like art, you know, like you seem to talk about it.

And again, I wasn't aware of it. I didn't have any awareness of it. And he said, you know, there's a program. It's four months in New York, four months in Paris, four months in London. You know, maybe you would like to do that. And I had just, again, never thought of that as a possibility and told my parents, I wanted to pursue a career in art

and I wasn't gonna take the LSATs. And they were like, what? That's a terrible idea. No one can make money in the art world. That's not a career. But I got into the Christie's program. I took the train to New York. I did the interview.

It was hard and scary and strange, but I guess I did a good job. And my grandmother said she would pay for me for the year. So I left for London and actually Laura came and she was doing her junior year abroad. And so we lived together for a semester in London. So that predates, I guess, probably right before. Right, so on some level, it's sort of the equivalent

of like getting a job in the mail room at CAA or something like that. It's like an entry level internship, but it gives you exposure to so many facets of what this world is all about. Yes, and I've heard you say, success looks like it happened overnight, but it's like years of like grinding

through all sorts of uncomfortable situations. And I guess that's, I have the self reflexivity at this point to be able to look back and say, yeah, I can draw a line through it, you know, but it wasn't intentional. Yeah, in retrospect, it all makes sense. But of course, these are experiences collected over a long period of time.

I mean, in the series of books and in your podcast, you know, how many times is it like we met in 1994, like these artists are people who you've known for a very long time, like that you sought out, that you were curious about, that you were interested in and developed a relationship. Like, I don't know whether it was intentional or just a result of that curiosity, but it seems like you made a concerted effort to, you know, figure out how to, you know, be connected to people who you felt were on the rise or doing something interesting and worthy of note. Yeah. So a really good friend of mine is a guy by the name of Michael Govan. were on the rise or doing something interesting and worthy of note? Yeah, so a really good friend of mine

is a guy by the name of Michael Govan. He's the director of the LA County Museum of Art and he loves art and I love art. I hope so. But not everyone necessarily in our role does, so I think it's important to kind of point that out. And some people love art, but they don't love artists. So I love artists, Michael does too.

And he shared this wisdom with me at some point. And he said, it's really up to us to write our own histories and to tell our own stories. And he said, like a museum director, like their history is amongst the artists that they choose to associate themselves with. And he said, so, you know, who are your people? You know, who are the people that you want to be aligned with, you know, throughout history? And so they're artists who I've known,

as you said, a really long time who I've done like Doug Aiken. I met Doug, he got off the plane, flew from LA to New York. He was renting the studio of an artist named Lawrence Carroll, who unfortunately passed away in the last few years. Keith Edmire, another artist, and I were there. Keith was hanging sheetrock because he had rented the studio for the summer. And we were the first people that Doug met. And Doug was in the first show that I had an idea for.

I pitched to Doug. And classically now he's like, well, that's a good idea. What else do you have? And I was like, oh my God, it took me like a year to come up with one idea. Like, what do you mean? What else do I have? But he was in the first show I curated, which was in Paris.

I did a solo show with him at the Berkeley Art Museum, bought a major work of his, did a solo show at the Aspen Art Museum. He's in my book and in the most recent version of this book, it's the only conversation where he's, they're not interviews, they're conversations, but he asked the questions of me. You know, we've known each other 30 years.

Yeah, the book opens with that. I mean, you have a brief forward and then it's that interview where he's really, you're really the focus of it. And yeah, he's like, remember when you guys talk about like, remember when we had to schlep all the artwork to Paris, it's like back in the day.

And it's like, these relationships are genuine and authentic because you were there at the inception of a lot of these people's careers that are now, you know, at the kind of, you know, sharp edge of what's interesting about the art world. Yeah, I mean, that's true. Yeah, so you have this Christie's experience, you work in a bunch of galleries,

and then you're at the Jewish Museum after that, right? And that seems like that was kind of a tipping point for you though, to kind of be not just one of the many people who come to New York and end up working in these galleries, but like, okay, this is like a serious, potentially sustainable career path. Yeah, it's interesting because once I decided

I wanted to work in the art world and you're right, like I was there exactly when you knew me, I was kind of a gallery girl, right? And there are tons of them. If you're pretty and young, like you get invited to every party and it's super easy to like enter the art world. People think it's hard, super easy to get in.

And it's like right place, right time, right outfit, you know, kind of thing, right? But that's different from being taken seriously. Exactly. And so pretty quickly I said like, I wanna earn my place here. I don't wanna just be someone's guest, right? And I got

involved with an emerging gallery that was called the AC Project Room. And an artist named Byron Kim, I've always been good at talking to artists, and he had the idea for me to do these conversations. So I've been doing these conversations with artists for a really long time. And I didn't kind of formalize them until not that long ago, but that's part of what I've done. I really love the conversation and the dialogue. And at some point I wanted to work in a museum because I thought at first, I don't want to work in a museum and I don't want to teach, but those were the things that I realized you could have a much broader impact. Having know, having my own gallery or whatnot, which I did a little bit with my first husband,

I was already just talking to people who already cared about art. I wanted to kind of proselytize, you know, about art and the role that it could have in people's lives. And moving to the Jewish Museum and doing shows there, I felt like I had to sharpen my skillset, you know, to convince people that didn't already like know and like me that these things were important.

Yeah, but you had this practice pre-podcast of seeking out artists and having a conversation with them and then either recording it or taking notes and you've saved all of that, right? Like it's a very cool practice that reminds me of Brian Grazer, the producer who talks often and fondly about a similar practice where going back all the way to the beginning of his career as a young person,

he would just seek out these mentors or cold call people and take them to lunch or convince them to go to lunch with him so he could learn from them. And then he would write up all these notes and he has like a library full of wisdom that he's accumulated by just, you know, pursuing that practice. And it feels like what you've done is pretty similar to that.

Yes or no? Yes, yes. You know, I've been thinking about legacy in the last few years and it started sort of going to a college reunion around when my son graduated from high school. And it was the 40th anniversary of the Aspen Art Museum and we had commissioned this essay around the museum

and it was supposed to be, I don't know, 2000 words or something like that. And it ended up being like 15,000. And it wasn't about me, but I was like a key character in the story. And I remember reading it on the plane on the way to my college reunion. And it just felt like this punctuation. And I wasn't planning to leave the museum. I didn't have any thoughts of it. And somehow I had this really strange sensation reading this story where it's like someone else giving me this perspective on what I had done.

And you're sharing that with me just now. And you're knowing me for such a long time. Is this, it has a weight to it, like a veracity that maybe someone else saying it, I would kind of brush off. And it's an incredible gift to have someone who knows you well, or knows you for a long time, or who pays attention to reflect back your life, it's pretty amazing. Yeah, thank you for that observation. I think it's well earned on your part.

And in terms of legacy, like I was trying to figure out, like I sensed a little bit of emotionality around that. And I wasn't sure whether it was like healthy pride for cool things that you've done that have meaning or whether it's that sense of like it being an epitaph. Like I'm just starting, like this is the story of my life. Cause if you think about legacy, all you have to do is look at the Aspen Museum of Art.

I mean, that building will outlast all of our lifetimes. And it's basically a symbol of that entire city, right? And you made that happen, which is like unbelievable, right? Like you must feel like amazing about that. And I know it's controversial in the community, but it feels like everyone's kind of come around to embracing it. But with that probably comes like, okay, well, what's next?

Or do I have to top that? Or where am I going? And I remember you reaching out to me after you left Aspen and you're like, I'm trying to figure out what I'm gonna do next. And you had this high Z art thing and it had to do with these conversations and how to figure out

how to create a digital platform for them. And then Orange County called. Yep, that's right. So highz.art got like sidelined for a bit or just got turned into podcasts in the books? I think both. I had an idea when I left the museum and I set out on this kind of journey,

like of self-discovery, right? I literally went halfway around the world. I went to, I booked a ticket from Denver to Bangkok and I figured I'll just figure it out once I land. And it was the first time, I mean, I'm super lucky. I've traveled a ton. And it was the first time that I ever went somewhere by myself and with no itinerary.

And I ended up doing a yoga retreat in Laos, which was something I had wanted to do, the idea of a yoga retreat my whole life. I basically have had kids my entire career. So, focused on kids and career, not really on self. And then ended up going to Angkor Wat and then to a Buddhist meditation training in Thailand. And when I was there, I had this realization,

which maybe sounds trite, but I was like everything I'm looking for, I already have. It's like right here. So coming back, I was like, okay, I'm gonna do these conversations. I'm gonna travel around. I'm gonna create this platform. And then COVID happens and it's like the music stops

and you just are in whatever chair was empty, right? And we were in Scottsdale and like no offense to anyone, but Arizona is not my place. And through the course of being there, it was really, really lonely. And so absent of a team, cause I had worked with a team for a really long time and absent of like pretty much any friends.

And I just thought like, I thought I wanted to do this thing on my own, but I didn't like it. So yes, the Orange County Museum of Art called and I said, I'm not sure, you know what I wanna do, but I was coming to Orange County for a horse show with my daughter, who's an equestrian. And I said, I'd like to go on a hard hat tour

and check it out. And I did, and I could see what it could be. And yeah. So when was that? Like a year and a half ago? That was in July of 2020. Right. And the difference between Aspen and Orange County,

when you were at Aspen, you raised all this money, you commissioned the architect, Shigeru Ban, to build the building. You saw that whole process from origination through completion, but in Orange County, the construction of the new museum was already underway. Yeah. So Tom Main had already designed it

and construction was happening. I'm sure it was slowed down by the pandemic, but you're kind of stepping into a situation that you're familiar with because you experienced that before, but probably not coming in with the same level of agency. Yeah, really interesting process. So, and a couple of different points again,

that you can't make this stuff up. In 2008, when the Aspen Art Museum was looking for an architect, there were three finalists. One was Shigeru Ban, one was Tom Main, and one was a Swiss firm, Chigon and Geyer. And in 2008, the Orange County Museum of Art was also looking for an architect, and their three finalists were Tom Main,

Shigeru Ban, and an Argentinian firm. So I knew about this project for a long time and I had known Tom a little bit since then. And so I had my eye on the project. And yeah, I mean, part of the reason I took the job is because I wanted to kind of prove to myself that I wasn't like a one hit wonder, that it wasn't just like a certain place

that I could do this thing. And I think one of the reasons I was interesting to the Orange County Museum of Art is because I had done it before. And when the project opens, I'll be the only woman in America to have done two ground up museum projects. That's pretty cool.

So the project had started, the construction had started. And although there were 17 designs over 14 years, there were still opportunities for me to enhance the design and to add my experience as an operator to the design. Because Tom has designed other museums but not other art museums. And so I was able to come in and say, we need to change the lighting.

People will use the building in this way. We need to make these enhancements. They had pulled out the photovoltaics for value engineering. And I said, I'm an environmentalist, like we have to have the photovoltaics. So I do feel like even though I inherited the architect and I inherited the design,

I did get to personalize it a little bit. I could add to it. There was something for me to do. And it's on schedule for October to open? October 8th, 5 p.m., 24 hour opening. And it's like a $97 million budget or something like that that I read. Like this is no small project.

Hopefully it's 94. And I know, I re-listened to the podcast that you did with Lance on Lance's show. And you were talking about keeping it on schedule. Like it just had to open at that date and everybody was gonna say, well, you know, it's inclement weather. Like we're gonna need a couple more months.

And you were able to like stick the landing and open it as promised. That is true. Yeah. And that was the first podcast I was ever on. And Lance is a great longtime friend. And he was a supporter of the Aspen Art Museum and the story that you're referencing, I sat down, the head of the building committee

invited me to lunch, maybe in New York. And he said, he was kind of trying to give me like a, I don't know if you can say like, come to Jesus, right? He was like, this isn't gonna happen. And I was like, yes, this has to happen. We kind of went back and forth and he's like, I isn't gonna happen. And I was like, yes, this has to happen. We kind of went back and forth and he's like, I don't think you understand. And I was like, no, I don't think you understand.

And he was great, great to work with him. And yeah, a lot of things can get done through sheer will. So this one will open on time as well. Yes, it will. Another interesting kind of weird thread is that Tom Main was the mentor to Lorcan O'Herlihy, who's the architect that we worked with on our house. Yes.

So those threads layered even more. And Tom's amazing. He's got a great story. He's a visionary. Yeah. And he's a son of Orange County, LA, born in Indiana, maybe in Indianapolis, I can't remember. But anyway, somewhere in Indiana

and moved out to California, raised by a single mom. And also through sheer will has built this incredible career and I mean, genius, he's a genius. I mean, he's responsible for kind of creating the architectural iconography of Los Angeles in many ways. Like it all tracks back to him. So that has to be a cool enriching experience.

Yeah. Let's talk about art in general. I think art, it's like, how do we talk about art, right? Well, this is what you do for a living. Art means many things to many people. So how do you think about what art is? Like, how do you define it for yourself? So the way I define it for other people

is also kind of how I define it for myself, but people often ask me that. And I have a super simple definition. What I say is that if the person who made it says it's art, then it's art. So it's all about the intention. It's about the intention of the creator. And so if you go through the galleries

of the Metropolitan Museum of Art, and you see like a beautiful Islamic bowl from the ninth century. I love that. That's part of my aesthetic. Is that art or is that artifact? Well, probably it's artifact because it was used to prepare food,

to present food, right? If it was created to be put up on a shelf, to represent something that is not utilitarian, then it's an art object. So if I take this and I move it over here and I say, do you like my art, Rich? And you're like, you get to have an opinion and you can say like, yes, I think that's so amazing.

The way the light hits the water, you know, or you can say like, no, because you know, it's only three quarters full and I would like it if it was like a hundred percent full. Like you get to have an opinion about it. You get to judge it, whether it's like good or bad, or you like it or you don't, but no one gets to say that it's not art. You know, if I made it and I said it's like good or bad, or you like it or you don't, but no one gets to say that it's not art.

You know, if I made it and I said it's art. Intentionality is all of it then. So anybody can say anything is art and we're not able to say, no, it's not. Correct. That's a pretty bold definition. Yes. That might make some people angry.

That's okay. You know, so I did a donor trip to New York some years ago and we went to the studio of an artist named Geddy Saboney. And he does lots of things, but at the time he was taking carpet remnants and turning them around and hanging them on the wall, kind of like paintings, right? And a guy who was on the trip was so mad.

He was like so offended by this because I was like, this is so interesting. Look at the tape mark on it and how it's been cut and how it comes off the wall. And he was like, is this emperor's new clothes thing? Like, are you trying to embarrass me or are you trying to make me feel stupid? Like he was really angry.

And he even insisted that we go out to dinner once we had gotten back to Aspen because he wanted to talk about it. It still bothered him like two weeks later. And I won't use his name, but I said, you know what? Maybe the fact that you're still thinking about this and still angry about it means that it's actually good. Yeah, who wins in that situation?

If it's haunting him, then that obviously is an argument that it does have some level of artistic merit. Yeah, or at least it's worthy of being considered. As a piece of being a provocateur, a provocative piece of something. Yeah, I would much rather have someone, it's not like I wanna make anyone mad, that's not what I'm saying.

And I want people to care about stuff. I think like lack of curiosity and like apathy are what's gonna kill not just individuals, but like society. So I think it's great for people to have a strong reaction. Let's move into that then, like why does art matter? Right? I'm sure you get asked these questions all the time.

No, I'm just laughing because, you know, on my podcast, the one thing that I ask everyone is why does art matter? Yeah, I know. And I figured you knew. And I've had this kind of personal campaign since I took the job in Aspen in 2005, where I wanted to kind of make the statement that by asking the question, why does art matter?

It's not, does art matter? It's why does it matter? So inherent in the question is like the assertion that it does. You're assuming that it already does. So that was intentional on my part. And I think that art matters because it is, it's like an alternate language.

It's a way of communicating things that have no other way to be told. And earlier today, I had a meeting with a journalist and she was saying that she had studied poetry and she went to her kids' class and they were doing a poetry project and they had a similar thing, like, you know, why does poetry matter?

And she said, or maybe they said like, what is poetry? And she said, poetry is extraordinary language. And I was like, that's amazing. Like, I love this idea of the extraordinary. And, you know, she was saying like metaphor and simile matter, not because we're trying to compare everything, but it's a way of giving us an ability to talk about things that we don't have

an ability to talk about otherwise. So art for me communicates things that everything else fails short to do. There's a difference between art communicates things that everything else fails short to do. There's a difference between art and that kind of expanded concept versus the experience of art in the museum setting. Like when we think about art, we think about paintings hanging on a wall,

or we think about a statue that's in the middle of a room in a museum. And when we think about museums, and I'm as guilty of this as anybody, and I'm certainly no savvy art person, but that experience conjures for me, like names on a wall of donors who tend to be kind of robber baron,

Vanderbilt type people that you'll never meet. Cryptic descriptions of the artists and the art that would confound even the most earnest person who's trying to understand what this is. And kind of an environment that can be cold and intimidating and somewhat off putting. It's like the museum is about money, endowments, donors, prestige, power, and fancy parties.

Yeah, that's- So disabuse me of this idea or help me understand how we can, cause I know like at the center of everything that you do is this deep desire to democratize the art experience, to make it accessible and meaningful for everybody, because under your definition of what art is, it should be speaking to all of us. It has the power to elevate all of our life experience, but we need a better way to communicate about it and a better way to like access it. I agree with that last statement a lot.

And I have spent a lot of time thinking about why. You know, why do a lot of people not care about art? Because a lot of people don't care about art. And that was really, that was kind of my sabbatical project, you know? And that was part of the highz.art platform is, you know, like what can I do personally to take art

directly to the people? How can I mainline art? And I thought that I wanted to move away from a building that can be intimidating or associative with exactly what you're talking about. So, you know, is there a more direct vehicle to communicate with the broadest possible audience about art? And I have been listening to the recent Brene Brown book. And one thing that was in there that really stood out for me was about this idea, and you may have read it or heard it as well, which is that it was about curiosity and brain function and how we literally cannot be curious about something that we know nothing about. You have to have some seed from which to be curious. And so if people have no knowledge of art or no access point for art,

then of course, they're not going to be curious about it. And people don't care about things that they're not curious about. So how do you get over that hurdle? Those associations of contemporary art with, in Andy Warhol, silkscreen that just sold for $195 million to Larry Gagosian, right? Like all these things that work against this notion of art being this system of energy, this means of communication.

So, you know, we make some progress and then something like that happens, right? So there's this kind of push pull, you know, within that. So for me, part of what I'm trying to do with the Orange County Museum of Art is to build what I'm referring to as a museum of the 21st century. And part of the way that we're doing that

is through an exhibition program that has three tenants. One of the tenants is looking back to look forward. And so this idea of not thinking like you're the first person that's ever had this idea, or not thinking like, it's only about us right now and what can we consume and what do we need and how are we satiated, you know? And, you know, the next tenant is about place

and being really cognizant that, you know, particularly during the COVID period and after like, you know, as I said, like the music stopped and you were, you know, you were where you were. And so like, you know, what did you learn about like yourself absent of motion? So many people spend, myself included, so much time in motion,

that there was a time that we wouldn't maybe otherwise have had to say like, well, who am I? Not just where am I? And then the third tenant we're calling caring and sharing. And it's about this idea, we want the museum to be like a Netflix series just where am I? And then the third tenant we're calling caring and sharing, and it's about this idea, we want the museum to be like a Netflix series or a great restaurant or something that you say

to your friend like, hey, you have to check this out, like let's go and do that together, I'll take you there. And so to not have the museum be like, I'm telling you what's great and what you should care about because I'm some authority figure. Right, or it feels like homework. Yes, exactly. As opposed to something you're excited to check out.

Exactly. So it's one thing to say that or to set out to achieve that, but like, what is the mechanism to hook people in? I mean, I know one big thing is you have a donor that's allowing you to make the museum free for the first 10 years. So you've removed that hurdle, which I think is huge. But how do you get people talking about it and excited?

Yeah, so in Aspen, we did a project called Arte en Español and we really wanted to reach out to the Spanish speaking community. And, you know, a lot of times institutions would say like, Hey, you know, we have an artist from Mexico, like you guys should come. And it's like, well, you know, why? Right. So we developed this partnership with a Spanish language radio station called La Tricolore. And at the time, the director of learning and myself spoke Spanish and went on the station and invited people to come.

And so the first time we thought, maybe we'd get 15 people and we got 50. And the second time we thought, maybe we get 15 and we got like 300. And so the learning from that was something that we'll put in play here too, which is people wanna be invited. No one wants assumptions to be made about them

or their values or what they should care about. People wanna be seen, people wanna be heard. People want to feel like you want them specifically. It's like you get an invitation that's like to a whole bunch of people and you're like, yeah, I mean, maybe I'll go. But if you get like a handwritten note or someone comes by your house or your office

and they're like, hey, I'm doing this thing. And I'd really like you to be there. It makes a huge difference. So I think that's part of what we're doing is working really hard to be aware of the like unassumed biases or assumed biases or, you know, to really be open and courageous about having conversations that are uncomfortable and to say like, okay, maybe it was this way before. Sorry, you know, like what else can I do? Yeah, one of the things that I thought was really cool about what you did in Aspen

was the outreach to the community. I mean, Aspen's a very interesting place. We think of it as being this ski resort town that's very hoity-toity and movie stars, et cetera, but that's not the legacy or the history of that place. That's a sort of recent development. I mean, there was this counterculture hippie situation and then the vast history that proceeded that.

Ricky was filling me in on a bunch of this the other day. But the fact that the museum through your leadership was connected to like a nearby rehab facility and the work that you did with like the veterans community to bring them into that art experience as a healing modality. Yeah, that's super important to me, you know, and I think that the sort of the highest order of living

is to be of service. And so, you know, we hear about like servant leaders and I really put that at the forefront of what I do every day is, you know, like, how can I help? And so I'm an ideas generator. I'm like a visionary, right? But I also am great at executing. Ever since Doug Akin said, what else?

You're like, I need to be better about my idea generation. Quicker, yeah. I got way quicker at it. But, you know, it's one thing to have an idea, it's another thing to execute. And so I've spent a lot of time thinking about how can we help? Like, what can we do?

And a story that I love to tell is a collaboration that we did in Aspen. And I'm talking kind of about that now because the Orange County Museum of Art isn't open yet. So like you said, I can say things, but we have to do them. But these are things that were done. And I reached out to the Hope Center, which is a suicide prevention center in Aspen.

And I've lost some really important people in my life to suicide. And that's one of the causes that I work on behalf of. And I said, I'd like to help. Can you come to the museum and have a meeting and let's brainstorm. And so I met with the founder and the director and at first they said, well, can you raise money for us?

And I was like, no, I can't raise money for you. Like maybe personally, but not as an institution. And then they said, all right, well, can you show art that's made by our clients? And I was like, no, we can't do that either, but tell me what you do. So people call there if they're in immediate danger of personal harm, then 911, hospital, et cetera.

And if people can be like moved to a different place psychologically, then they're given a list of safe spaces to go. And I said, great, can we make moved to a different place psychologically, then they're given a list of safe spaces to go. And I said, great, can we make the museum a safe space? So we did frontline training for all of our employees so that the museum could be a safe space. And the idea is that, you know, sometimes all it takes

is like one person being kind to you, to move you from like this moment to this moment. And it's in between those moments that you're at risk. So I can't remember what the question was. Yeah, well, it was really about how you leverage your position and your love of art and your belief in its ability to be this vehicle for healing or community or anything really like that is aspirational.

Right, and how you channel that into service. like, okay, I'm in this privileged position. I have this job, this role, but I have the opportunity to be creative within that. And how can I give back to the community and instill in them some version of this passion that I have that is so meaningful to me personally. Yeah. And museums, so I'm back in the museum space, I'm back in a building and there are certain constraints around that, but in other ways, it's also incredibly expansive. It's associative, people know that's a place for art.

Museums are places that are often quiet. And so it's great for people with autism, you know, like it's reduced stimulation of, you know, sound and light, cause everything's super controlled. Right? So there are things that we're in a really great position to be of help with. When you think about education

and the way that kids are taught art, like what is your, what are your thoughts on that? So I had, you know, we learn from things that are positive and negative, right? So I remember being at the Rothko Chapel in Houston once, and that's one of my like favorite places. Like it's a go-to place for me. And there was a group of kids, they were coming from school

they're dressed in their school uniforms and their teacher said, okay, go in, keep moving, don't touch anything, don't stop, walk to the end, take a left, walk to the end, take a left, come back out. And I was like, oh my God, like this is this incredible place of contemplation and quiet and solitude and like, you know, magnitude and humanity. And here they're being told like, you don't belong, right? Like, don't do all these things. I'm gonna assume that you're gonna do everything negative

instead of like, hey, go inside, you know, tell me which one is your favorite when you come out. Like, what do you think of, you know, like keep your voice quiet so other people can have contemplation. There are ways to say the same thing differently. So I don't know what kids are being taught about art now. My kids went to Aspen Country Day School at first

and they're three years apart in terms of grades and they had the same assigned art project. Like it didn't evolve. Didn't evolve at all. No, and it didn't evolve any kind of creativity. Draw within the lines. For sure. If you do anything creative, that's no bueno. Like it's really a creativity killer,

which is the opposite of the whole intention behind it. For sure. And I remember one of my kids actually got in trouble because they didn't follow the assignment. And I was like, but art is not about an assignment. What do you mean? Like, I would think you would get an A if you don't follow the assignment. And I was like, but art is not about an assignment. What do you mean? Like, I would think you would get an A if you don't follow the assignment.

Yeah, it's so interesting, isn't it? Yeah. How do you think about the role of art in this area of offense? Like we're very hypersensitized right now and we're going through, you know, a lot of cultural shifts at the moment for better or worse.

Like this is part of what moves us forward as a culture, but there does seem to be trepidation around saying the wrong thing. And how does that fit with art, which is about being provocative or pushing the envelope or making people uncomfortable? Yeah, I like to give everyone the benefit of the doubt, and that's how I like to just approach my life.

And like, yeah, sometimes people say things that are triggering or offensive, and I like to believe that, you know, everyone does the best they can with the information that they have at the time. And sure, like I'm gonna say things wrong sometimes and other people are gonna say the wrong thing sometimes. And, you know, to come at things with, again,

this kind of grace for people, you know, and a belief in like the inherent goodness, I think is how I try and approach art too. And I think, I've been in situations where I'll say like, I'm not really sure if I can say this or like, is this okay? And that kind of humility, to be open in that way, with that kind of grace and dignity for whomever you're talking to or about, I think that's the only answer I can give.

And what about the role of the artists themselves though? Cause they play a role in how we think about what's happening around us, how we contextualize and make sense of confusing things about our world and what it means to be human. And in a confusing time, I suppose you can make the argument that the artist plays a role in trying to create clarity.

I hope so, but clarity for who, right? So I mean- Usually through their personal experience. Exactly. Yeah. And so there's an amazing Barbara Kruger show Right. So, I mean. Usually through their personal experience. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And so there's an amazing Barbara Kruger show up right now in LA.

And, you know, she's interested in the dynamics of power. Right. And that's something that I'm interested in and that I've changed my perspective on, you know, certainly as I've grown up and, you know, what is the responsibility of power and who has it. And yeah, I think art can shed the light on that. I'm less interested in art that is didactic,

just like I'm less interested in people who are prescriptive or didactic. I'm interested in openness and expansiveness and I'm more interested in questions than I am in answers. Yeah, Kruger's interesting because she's been doing this for a very long time and has been very consistent in her messaging. And yet, has there been a time where her message

could be more resonant than it is now? Like I just saw that when I went down to see Ricky, there's a huge, the side of the mocha is like painted in a giant, you know, billboard, like the whole side of the building is painted with one of her pieces. So it's cool. We have to keep learning the same things

over and over again. I know, right? Yeah, not just personally, but also as a society, and it's like, that can be depressing or it can just be a truth. And I said to my son the other day, I mean, I don't think life is like really circular anymore. I'm thinking about it like as a corkscrew.

So it's like, yes, you keep coming back around. One keeps coming back around and hopefully you're in a slightly elevated place to experience the same thing. So you're, you know, to experience the same thing. So you're not the same as you experience the same thing. That's almost like a weird, like kind of inception way of thinking, like a metaverse sort of parallel universes way

of thinking about life and sliding doors. Yeah, well, I mean, I catch myself in some of the same situations and it's like the knowledge I've accumulated allows me to make different decisions. Meditation has played a big role in this. Yes. You're on like a tear.

How many days without missing a day? It's like 1300 days or some crazy number like that of consistently meditating. So what has been your experience of being so consistent with that practice? I'm a totally different person. I'm like certain that my brain has been like rewired, like the space between stimulus and response, right?

It's much longer. So not every single time, there are moments when I still react and most of the time I respond and that's because of meditation. Yeah, anything else? I'm a super ritualistic person. I do the same things, same five things every day

and I eat the same stuff. And actually I apparently I need a little more variety. I don't know if it's working for you. I know I'm going back and forth about it. You know, like my naturopath said I need more variety, but my homeopath said like, it's good, you know? So I don't know, who do you listen to? I mean, I guess you listen to yourself,

but I'm doing this. I like to do things that are hard, right? We talked about Ricky's project. And so one of the things I'm doing in 2022 is 365 days of yoga. And so it's, I'm less about like how long I meditate or how long I do yoga for or whatever, but it's about the consistency.

So I do these same things every day and somehow there's a lot of comfort for me in knowing like these are just my things. It's interesting in your conversations with artists that ritual comes up, like you ask people about their habits and I'm just remembering your conversation with Tom Sachs and he's sharing his morning routine.

And that really like hit me hard. Do you remember what he said? You know, I don't. I remember what he said about like how he knows what kind of artist someone is based on what they're wearing. Oh yeah, that's a very Werner Herzog thing. Or he's like, he gives him a broom and says, sweep the floor and he watches how they sweep the floor.

And then he knows whether they're gonna be a fit. Yeah, but I don't remember what he said. I think something about his coffee. So, well, he was talking about how we need to be very mindful of not squandering those morning hours because sleep is this precious thing where your unconscious mind is coming up with all of these ideas

and like processing all of this information. And when you first wake up in the morning, it's accessible and present. And to do anything but respect that and channel it into something creative is to kind of waste that gift that you get every single day. And so he had a couple of sayings, one of which was like, don't read the newspaper

until your hand has touched clay or something, which can be a metaphor for many things, obviously, but to treat those morning hours as something very special and sacred. Yeah, thank you for that. I do remember that now. but to treat those morning hours as something very special and sacred. Yeah, thank you for that. I do remember that now. And I think a lot about that too.

And that's a big part of why I have this morning ritual because I do believe that, and it's not just me. I mean, this is a lot of people think this and have said this, you know, but the way that you start your day, sets the tone for your whole day. And if you populate your mind with like other people's thoughts or problems or whatever,

it changes your emotion. And so, I love the morning and that's my most kind of creative time, most productive time. And it, yeah, it sets my tone for the day. and that's my most kind of creative time, most productive time. And yeah, it sets my tone for the day. And any day that I even don't meditate until like later in the day, it just doesn't go as well.

Yeah, you gotta do it first thing, right? Among all of these many, many conversations that you've had with artists for many years, obviously there's gonna be recurring themes or things that kind of connect all of these people in some sort of unified theory. So what is that for you? Like, what do you glean from speaking

to all of these highly creative people that would be meaningful for somebody who's listening to this, who maybe doesn't feel that connected to art or the creative process? I think one of the things that comes up a lot and people use different terms for it, but it's the same thing.

And it's about kind of the flow state. And what do you do in your life that allows you to forget everything else? And, you know, when do you most feel like yourself? And it's when you're not aware of what's happening. And so, you know, I had a friend of mine who is the CEO of the Aspen Skiing Company on the podcast. And, you know, he finds it on the mountain,

he finds it in skiing, right? And so everyone does something when they feel that in the day. Some people it's washing the dishes, it's like the warm water on your hands. Some people it's running or walking the dog or for most people it is like somehow being in motion and or being removed from your devices. So for me, it's also in the shower. And I think that in that space,

like that's where art happens. And it's like the art of life as well. That's when you solve a problem that has been plaguing you, even whatever it is. It might be something that's technical or mechanical, or it might be something that's conceptual or emotional, but being able to tap into that space, this is something that everyone talks about. That's the mystical side of it. But I think there's also a very practical side of it.

I had Van Nystad in here who worked with Tom Sacks, back to Tom Sacks, worked with Tom for a long time. And that episode was great, cause he's like disabuses you of any idea that, the artist is walking around just having lightning bulb moments constantly and just sort of expressing, without any kind of toil or turmoil.

And that in truth, it's the result of a very diligent commitment to a practice that is organized and well thought out and often extremely difficult and time consuming. All those things are true. And what I would add to that as well is that it's often lonely. And I think that loneliness is something

that people don't talk about a lot. And I think that it is like a super broad societal problem. And there's a benefit to loneliness or alone time. And it's not, they're not necessarily the same. You can be alone and not lonely. And I think loneliness is more prevalent than people allow because it seems like modeling or like self negative in some way, but that idea of being alone

and or being lonely is necessary for creativity as well. And that's something that comes up too. Right, well, that plays into a bit of a stereotype that to be a brilliant, successful artist, you must be tortured and alone and isolated and self-flagellating and all of these things. But you know, lots of artists. Like, can you draw a conclusion

about the general disposition of the artist or do they just come in all shapes and sizes and flavors? Artists are people, you know? And all those adjectives that you just used, like they can all be teased out, you know? So it's like, you can be, you can be heady and contemplative without being tortured, right? You can be tortured, but still like into it,

like maybe that's not negative, right? So, I mean, I think that artists are people who make things for other people. And this idea of like the mythology of any kind of like group is almost always wrong. Yeah, that idea of artists make things for other people is an interesting one. And I feel like very dynamic in our age,

we were talking about Daniel Arsham before the podcast and how his work is one of constant collaboration with like corporate partners, some of which are super cool, like, oh, Adidas and stuff. And some that are like, really you're gonna work with that brand? But in so doing, he's able to create these sort of iconic works that live outside of the museum space

and kind of penetrate culture in a really interesting way. It feels like that kind of sensibility maybe began with somebody like Warhol, and he's carrying on that tradition. But now in this hyper corporatized social media world, us being Gen Xers and having hangups about selling out is like not a thing anymore. It's like, oh, cool, you're working with that brand

or you're taking money from these people to make that thing. We have a very different relationship to than when we were in our 20s. Yeah, I spend a lot of time thinking about two things. One, I really try and ask myself, like, what would I love? You know, and it goes back to the story that I told at the beginning about Gary, you know, my stepfather. You know, not what would I like, you know, not like, who do I love? You know, but like, what would I love?

You know, that allowance of the thing that would be, you know, the greatest, highest, best use, et cetera, you know? And then the other thing I think a lot about is why does it matter, you know, or what matters most or who cares? You know, it's kind of like the same question and being able to answer that. And one of the things that matters a lot to me is amplification. You know, it's like, if you're going to do something, like you got to make it worthification. You know, it's like, if you're gonna do something, like you gotta make it worth doing. And part of that is about its impact. And so, you know, brand collaborations or things that, yeah, previously,

maybe I would have said like, well, I wouldn't do that. Or like, you know, no way. I'm like, okay, that's a vehicle, you know? So like Malcolm McLaren, like, you know, what's the message, what's the medium, right? And being okay about that's a vehicle, you know? So like Malcolm McLaren, like, you know, what's the message, what's the medium, right? And being okay about that. And actually being grateful for it. Yeah, I mean, when you, I'm just remembering,

like around the time when we were living in New York, everywhere you would go, you would see revs painted on the side of buildings, or you would see Andre the Giant, and you'd be like, why is Andre the Giant everywhere? But there's something cool and provocative about that. There's a mystery, like what is behind this? Like, why are there pictures of this person all over the city and who's doing this?

That I think is really interesting in that sensibility, like the urban landscape is the museum. And I think that's why street art is so kind of compelling and interesting because it is solving that accessibility problem. And it is obviously democratizing the experience of art. And it feels like it's this merging of kind of culture with art in the most seamless way possible, right? Yeah. So how do you take

the best of what that is with you being somebody who's in charge of like a building, you know, and encapsulate that in a way that is meaningful for somebody who's coming in? Yeah. And what I would also share in response to that is like Claude Monet's water lilies, right? I mean, I had a time like in my twenties where I'm like, oh God, if it's on a dish towel, like I'm never looking at that art again. And then going and on Naoshima Island, seeing these incredible Claude Monet water lilies

with natural light and remembering like, oh, the reason that this like jumped the shark and became part of popular culture is because it's amazing, you know, because it's beautiful. And I like things that are beautiful. I wanted to read from your book, you had mentioned earlier about the idea of what would you love? And you say in the latest book in this volume,

"'So what if we ask ourselves in every moment "'of every hour of every day for the rest of our lives, "'what would I love? "'What if we allow ourselves the incredible gift "'of connecting with our truest and deepest desires? "'What if we believe we are not just able or entitled to do so, but that we also know that by granting ourselves

this gift of connection, we make the world better, better for ourselves, our partners, our children, the planet. What if the space of art encourages and reinforces this notion? What if the artist by living fully and outwardly and inspiringly and generouslyces this notion? What if the artist by living fully and outwardly and inspiringly and generously shares this notion as a woman, a mother, a partner, a yogi, a generator,

a friend, a community member? What if paintings and sculptures and installations can become incantations, prayers, experiences? What if all the things are not just what they are, but also more? What if the the things are not just what they are, but also more? What if the entire universe can be not only captured, but also encompassed both in the work of art and in the experience of it?

This is not just what I believe, but also what I know. This is how I am inspired. This is how I practice. This is how I learn. This is how I love. This is how I learn. This is how I love. This is how I am. Amen. So it is a prayer in and of itself.

It's beautiful. I haven't had that read to me. Thank you. Yeah. So how did you come to that approach to how you think about art? You know, in listening to you read that, I'm like, how audacious of me to say that.

Yeah, but you're entitled to own that, you know? Yeah, how did I get there? You know, there are so many answers that I could give and it's sort of like the question of, you know, there's so many answers that I could give and it's sort of like the question of, you know, how did I find my way to art? And I trace kind of, I don't know if it's Heidi 2.0 or 3.0 or 6.0 or whatever it is, but whoever I am, like right now, I trace a lot of it back to

the opportunity to meet this guy, Rand Stagen, who has something called the Stagen Institute in Dallas and his introduction of me to Joseph Campbell's The Hero's Journey and giving me a framework for understanding my life up until that moment. And then marking that time with a public talk for 300 people, all YP hours. And then having him hug me at the end of it and say,

you just made a declaration in front of your community and I'm so excited to see what happens. And I was like, what's a declaration? Like, what do you mean? And it's a big part of that. This idea that there is some kind of system or structure by which to quantify and allow things that at the time seemed like terrible. by which to quantify and allow things

that at the time seemed like terrible, or difficult or awful or embarrassing or shameful. And to see them within this space of gratitude for every single thing that's happened. Right, because they all hold meaning that led you to this place, right? Yeah, and for me, art is my North Star. I love nature and that is a place of like centering and grounding for me.

And like the consistent thing through my life for inspiration and joy and company is art. You obviously have a really good radar for people who are doing something interesting and seeking out these artists. So, what is that? Like, what are you looking for?

Or what is it that triggers in you? Like, oh, that person's interesting. I wanna know more about who they are. It's often something that I don't understand. And we had an interesting conversation. So we spent Thanksgiving in Copenhagen with Laura and her husband and kids. And we had a conversation around the table,

around, you know, how we grew up. And our father was an inventor, 47 patents. And he would talk at dinner about these really complicated things that no one understood. And instead of feeling uncomfortable, so we were both talking about like, how did that inform us?

And Laura had informed her to like be an inventor, a creator, like a kind of intergenerational gift that way. For me, it manifested as being like comfortable being, like not understanding things. Like, so I don't feel threatened by things that I don't understand. I'm like curious about it or I'm like, okay, you get that. And I love that you're passionate about that.

Like, that's not my thing, but like, that's cool, right? So what I'm often drawn to in an artist, like that thing is something I don't understand. And it's not to say I understand a ton of things, but I understand a lot of things. And so when something happens that I don't quite get, that's what draws me in. Like whether it's the intention, well, like why?

Like, why did you do that? Or why does that matter to you? Or like, why are you thinking that? Somewhere in those two spaces, that's what I'm looking for. Interesting. What do you think about, like, so who's interesting to you right now?

Like who's excited? Like, I'm not gonna ask you who your favorite artist is, but I will ask you like who's top of mind at the moment, who you think you're like, wow, that person's doing something next level, or like that is really cool. So there are so many artists, right? And we can only show a super small number, right?

So for us to give that kind of time and space and to spend those funds, it has to be someone who hits those three tenants. And sometimes it's someone that I've known for a long time, but haven't had the chance to work with yet. And sometimes it's because I wanna know more about someone and, you know, spending more time with them. And so there's an artist named Jennifer Goody,

who I really like, and she's in one of the books. And I like her ritual. I like her approach to making art. I like that she's creating these kind of contemporary mandalas, these objects for generating energy and sharing that like that energy. And it's, it's painting and it's made with sand. And so it's not necessarily like a medium that I've never thought of before. I just returned from Marfa, Texas and spent some time with Leo Villarreal. He's an artist I've known a really long time and And he just made these NFTs and I've been like,

oh, NFTs, you know, like we're talking about them on the podcast and whatever, because like you have to, because a big part of what I do is cultural consciousness because artists are like they're sponges and they're reflectors, right? Like, and that's what I am too, like simultaneously pull things in, reflect things back.

And he has this great project called Cosmic Reef and he explained it. I took a bunch of Orange County Museum of Art donors and he explained it in a way that made so much sense to everyone and you know what? They're beautiful. Like they're really beautiful. And they're NFTs.

Yeah. So there were two things that I wrote down on like my outline that I wanted to talk to you about. One is Marfa. I wanna understand, I've never been to Marfa, but like I know Marfa is a big deal. I wanna understand why. And then the NFT thing.

So we'll put that aside for the moment. Like walk me through the whole Marfa thing. Yeah. So the Marfa thing is fascinating for a lot of reasons that I'll put in kind of a context. So this is my second visit and I saw some things for the second time on this trip and some of them I remembered in a way that was true and some of the things I remembered differently than they were true. So there are a lot of spaces that can be productive for art. And sometimes art and artists go into places

that other people don't wanna be because it's cheaper, it's far away for whatever reason, right? So Marfa is literally in the middle of nowhere. It's like not just far West Texas, it's like far, far West Texas. It's a solid, the first time I went there to be super transparent, we flew privately from Aspen

and I was like, oh, it's not far. You know, it's like so convenient, right? Right. Okay, this time. For people that don't know, it's like, it's this place in the middle of nowhere and there's a bunch, there's a so convenient, right? Right. Okay, this time. But for people that don't know, it's like it's this place in the middle of nowhere and there's a couple of buildings, it's not much, right? And everybody knows the Prada store that ends up on Instagram. Prada Marfa, yeah.

So there are two ways to get to Marfa, driving, okay? You can fly in privately, but it's an airstrip and it's like the length of this table, okay? So you can fly to El Paso and it's a solid four hour drive going 90 or a hundred miles an hour, okay? So it's not close to El Paso, but that's the closest hospital, okay? It's also a two hour and 45 minute drive from Midland, Texas, okay?

That's where I went. And the drive from Midland, Texas is through, I mean, oil fields and trailers. And I mean, like it's a part of America that I haven't seen much of. And you're driving along the border if you're coming from El Paso and they're like the big blimps that are looking

for people that are trying to cross the border. I mean, it's like harsh. It's at 5,000 feet in elevation. So, you know, there's the altitude issue. And Donald Judd, who's really the father of minimal art, was looking for a place to live and work. And he had tried a lot of other places, including Santa Fe and some places in Colorado.

And he had seen Marfa while he was in the military, while he was on a train that went through town. And these long boxcar trains still go through town every couple of hours. So 200 cars, the train engine, West Texas light at altitude. So it looks different. The light at altitude. So it looks different. The light at altitude is different.

So he bought up a bunch of military, former military barracks, places that German prisoners had been held. And then he invited some of his friends to do site-specific art there. So Donald Judd, Dan Flavin, who's the artist that makes the work with fluorescent bulbs, John Chamberlain, who's the artist that makes the work with fluorescent bulbs John Chamberlain who's the artist who makes the compressed car sculptures

none of them are with us on the planet anymore and because it's a Mecca you know younger artists have moved there and or not even necessarily I mean they're younger artists older artists we went to Christopher Wool studio, the head of the Chinati Foundation, which is where the Donald Judd's are and the Chamberlain's and the Flavin's and the Robert Irwin. She said, you can find a Donald Judd

behind every doorway here, but good luck finding a sandwich on a Monday. 1400 people live there. It's the poorest county in Texas. And it's just a place with a lot of dichotomies. And that's part of what makes it interesting. The light is beautiful. It's quiet.

It's far from other places. And it's worth going to. The Prada Marfa that you're talking about was commissioned by the Art Production Fund and by the Ballada Marfa that you're talking about was commissioned by the art production fund and by the ballroom Marfa and it's two artists, Elmgreen and Dragstead. And it was their idea. And they actually were going to do Prada Vegas. And then Yvonne Force, who's one of the founders of the art production fund said, no, no, I have a better idea, Prada Marfa. And it's been shot at. It's been, you know, the door was pulled off. People stole the shoes and the bags.

And I don't know, some people love it now. They put up a fence around the back of it and people have put locks on it, like, you know, one of the Paris bridges or, but it's an unusual place. So yeah, it was a cattle town and now it's, I don't know if I would call it an art Mecca, but it's definitely a place that draws the art world.

And it's a functioning art commune where working artists are actually living there. Yeah, that's a little aggrandized, you know, to what it is. It's a place where artists have found some like-minded people and have now driven up the cost of houses, because people went on Zillow to check when we were there.

But I think it's pretty lonely and pretty isolated. And there's a little bit of a battle for the town, the soul of the town, I think, that's going on. Yeah, it's fascinating. There's something about it that is very resonant though. There's lots of, you know, kind of artists communities around the world, but there's something about Marfa

that really draws a lot of people in and in a kind of special intangible way. Yeah, I think anything that's hard to do makes something more interesting. So, I mean, I think- It weeds out the looky loos, right? Because it's so difficult to get there. Yeah, and I talked to the people that I brought with me

and I said, you guys are art pilgrims. You don't need me to take you to Miami. I'll take you to Inhochin in Brazil or I'll take you to Marfa, Texas. Let's talk about the NFT thing. So in addition to being kind of in the era of offense, we're also in the era of like content and the era of like ephemera.

There's so much coming at us. You said art is about intent, but if everybody's putting all this stuff out into the world on some, you know, somewhere on the spectrum of this is art, or this is just me sharing, like A, how do you make sense of all of that? I mean, who is to say like TikTok is an art? I don't know, like maybe you have a grip on that,

but that begs the whole NFT thing now. So it's a very strange time where I feel like art is at this pivotal moment and at the center of the conversation about what the evolution of the internet is gonna look like and how we make sense of it. And so it sounds like from the way you described it, like you're kind of like, I don't know about all this,

but you're slowly being lured in or converted to this idea that real art can exist on that plane. I mean, there's a difference between, I suppose, like what Beeple's doing, like grabbing headlines for commanding these massive auctions or the Bored Ape Yacht Club versus a bazillion JPEGs on OpenSea. So like, how do we make sense of all of that?

Yeah, so when people are trying to understand something, they often conflate things, right? And so you'll hear people talk about like why NFTs matter because they'll say like, well, you know, an artist makes something and then it goes out in the world and then it resells and they don't get anything for it. And this solves that problem. And I'm like, well.

That has nothing to do with the art though. At all. Yeah. And that's like the blockchain, right? And that's about. Which is cool. Which is super cool. And very empowering for artists out there. Totally. Yeah.

I'm all for that, you know? But then it gets back to the McLaurin thing, right? Like the medium or the message. So you have to separate the technology out from the content. So the technology is cool for that purpose, right? Now, when something's new and then there's a huge amount of money being associated with it, then you have, it was like internet stocks in the early 2000s, right? Or you have people that just seize the opportunity and someone's like, well, I'll make my own NFT and I'll put it out there. So a lot of the NFTs, particularly early on, it really wasn't about the NFT. It was really about crypto and a way of like validating crypto

and turning something that seemingly had value, but like didn't have any practical application into something. So that was like the primary driver, in my opinion. The art has been secondary. into something, right? So that was like the primary driver, in my opinion. The art has been secondary. I think it's only recently that people are trying to make things that are art instead of what they said. I wanna be clear about it.

When I explained to you about my definition of art, very quickly I said, you get to have an opinion about whether it's good or it's not. Right? You can't say it's not art, but it doesn't have to be good art. Exactly, exactly. And so separating out like,

and aesthetics are a thing, you know? I mean, they just are, and people don't have the same interest in them. And I'm curious about when and how often people will use a technology to do something that can only exist on that technology instead of being able to exist in another form. Yeah. I mean, there's something very interesting about the technology, but we're so early in this process that it's hard to make sense

of what should legitimately command our attention versus what's a bunch of bullshit. I just see like a lot of nonsense and I see a lot of people losing money because they're getting caught up in something without fully understanding it. And now we're in the middle of this crypto crash. I just see like a lot of nonsense and I see a lot of people losing money because they're getting caught up in something without fully understanding it. And now we're in the middle of this crypto crash.

I think that's gonna sort out a lot of this problem and have people thinking differently about this. But it's interesting to see so many things in flux as a result of it. But I guess if there is something interesting about it or worth interesting about it or worth saying about it, it's that people are talking about art in a way that maybe they weren't before all of this.

Yeah, I mean, art has always been, it's always had its place in popular culture. And often it's about art and money. It's about like the Leonardo da Vinci that sold for X number of dollars. 500 or some crazy 500 million dollars. Yep, and so that's often what it is. I think that in general, having people talk about art

is better than not having people talk about art. And I think anything that people are trying to learn about and expand their mind around is good. So for me, I'm interested, as I said, in culture, right? And so I'm interested in, I've had a Coinbase account a long time because I wanted to see what it was like to buy Bitcoin. I have a wallet. I uploaded my first NFT.

I learned about gas fees. I kept going back and checking. I was like, I'm not paying $400 for something that's free. And then I'm like, well, who's getting that money? And what does that mean? And what does mining mean? So I like learning things. And so that's where I am on this.

I'm curious about it. I'm not invested. But that has nothing to do with art. It has nothing to do with art. I think at some point an artist will do something really interesting with this. I just don't know that I've seen that yet. Yeah. And I remember when there was, what were they calling it? It, it was basically like computer art, you know, which was in the early aughts.

And it was like, okay, the next thing is gonna be this, you know, computer art. I just can't remember what it's called. I mean, cause it's gone, right? So every 10 years, every 20 years, you know, once a generation or whatever, like this new thing comes on and, you know, something stays, but very little, you know. Well, now it's about AI creating original pieces of art.

Yeah, that's not gonna happen. Is that art? No. What if the AI intends it to be art? Is saying, this is my art. Yeah, but the AI, I mean. If you can infer consciousness in that AI, would that make a difference?

Yes, it would, but I can't and I don't. We're not there yet. No. We're not there yet. I wanna switch gears a little bit and talk about leadership. I mean, you're somebody who knows how to raise a tremendous amount of money. You're somebody, you talked earlier about execution, like, you know, follow through,

you know how to execute on these ambitious goals, get these buildings like, you know, follow through, you know how to execute on these ambitious goals, get these buildings built, you know, instill these programs that then, you know, are impacting lots and lots of people, you know how to lead teams. Like, I don't know that I would think of you as like a business person, but ostensibly you are, right? So what have you learned about business and leadership

and, you know, basically making good on these goals and promises that you make. Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, I've been a CEO for like 15 years, you know, and that was a learning for me also is that, you know, I realized I'm super entrepreneurial. I have a super high tolerance for risk. I run all of these kinds of micro businesses

within this large umbrella. And I have a clear leadership style. I have a clear area of expertise, like my thing, right? Like trend identification and brand building for goods and services aimed at high net worth individuals. Like that's what I do. That's like my pitch, I know. I don't even know what you just said.

You can unpack that if you want. So I'm really good at finding talent, right? That's why I'm good at picking artists. So I'm also really great at building a team and the way that I lead. But you could have been an agent for artists with that talent. I don't think so.

So what I don't do really is, I don't know, it's interesting. I was gonna say like, I don't sell things, which I don't, but I do, like I sell ideas, I sell concepts, I sell meaning, you know, I sell experiences. And when you're raising money, you have to sell these people on an idea

or that their money will be funneled into something meaningful for them and for the world. Yes. Like you're in marketing. Yeah, part of it, yeah. I'm in a bunch of different things. I'm also in product development. I'm also in learning systems.

Construction. I'm also in construction and development. And yeah, I'm also in retail. So food service, all these different things. That's what's so interesting about a museum is that it is a non-for-profit, but it's a business. And with all of these different verticals. So what I am really good at is finding the right people

and giving the sort of 30,000 foot view and then letting people execute. So it's sort of like a constellation of a lot of different planets, coming together under the same umbrella. And what are the lessons that you've learned about how to lead teams of people or empower the people that are working below you

and in cooperation with you? Yeah, authentic leadership, for sure. You know, telling people the why, you know, everyone wants to know the why. And so all these different things that I do, they all intersect with each other. So it's like, I wanna know the intentions of the artists. I want people to know what my intention is.

Like, why am I asking you to do this? Another thing is like, everything matters. Like literally everything matters, you know? And there are these, not everything matters the same, right? You know, so like 20% of the things matter, you know, like 100% and 80% of the things matter, you know, like 20%, you know,

I mean, that doesn't add up, but it kind of does. So the other thing I've learned is like, you gotta be courageous and have the difficult conversations. And that's what I mean when I say like everything matters, like you can't let one thing go. And one of the things that I say a lot is that, like I'm not a lawyer, like I'm not an accountant,

I don't have any special skills, all that I have really is my integrity. And that's what I have to defend at all costs. And so I wake up most days and people want me to do something or say something, and it's often not in alignment with what I know is right. And so, not flinching from having those difficult conversations

and doing it diplomatically, of course, allowing other people to have wins, not needing to be right. Those are some of the things. I would imagine all of those skills are enhanced by meditation, right? Finding that moment of pause where you can process how to best respond versus react,

how to be tactful in your communication, all of those things. Do you have a sense of what your leadership was like prior to meditation versus now? Yes, I was a yeller. Yeah. And that's, I had these charms made and I wore them around my neck.

And one was like two stick figures, like a boy and a girl and had the initials of my kids, E and O. And then I had another one made and it said, be graceful, yelling doesn't work. And that's what I had before I started meditating and I would kind of rub it. And that's what I learned because it's terrible. And that is like, I can't ever imagine now yelling.

Like, I mean, how horrible like to yell, like at my kids or at my team or like a random person. I mean, how awful. What is the modality of meditation that you practice? So I do different things. Sometimes it's silent and sometimes it's guided. Recently, I've been doing a lot of guided meditations because my mind is pretty active.

At different points, I've been able to do silent meditation, but now it's often guided. I'm a huge fan. Like on a particular app? Yeah, huge fan of Insight Timer. And it keeps track of my days and my minutes and my hours. And there are certain practitioners on there that I really like.

I like this woman, Sarah Blondin, and there's one particular meditation that she has. It's maybe 12 minutes long and it's called learning to surrender. And I listened to it on my way here today, when it took me longer than I had anticipated. And it's like, I can't be reminded too many times to surrender.

Yeah. What is the ambition for the museum? Like if you have your druthers and everything goes your way and it's five years down the road and you're looking back, what is it that you hope to accomplish or express? I want people to feel welcome, you know, and it gets back to this idea that I talked about earlier that, you know, like I know for myself

and I use myself as a metric, you know? Like if I don't care about it, why should I, you know, want anyone else to care about it or hope that they will? And I know for myself, like what I wanted most in my life and now which I have so much gratitude that I actually have is, you know, I wanted to feel seen and loved, you know, and so much so that I put it in my phone

in my calendar every morning at 7 a.m. And it still buzzes, you know, 7 a.m. Pacific every morning it says, I feel seen and loved. And I put it in there when I put it in, I didn't feel seen and I didn't feel loved. And I manifested it. And so that's what I want. That's what I use my platform for.

And that's what art for me as a vehicle for is to have people feel that they're seen and feel that they're loved. Well, I have this sense that all of these many artists that you've known and that you chronicle in books and on the podcast, see you and respect you and revere you. I know they think incredibly highly of you and you commandeer like a level of respect

because of that integrity that's so important to you, which I think is really cool. Like, as you said, like all you have is your reputation and your integrity. And for this creative community of like brilliant artists all out there who speak so highly of you and think so highly of you, it has to be, I mean, that is the fulfillment of that 7 a.m. like, you know, little thing that you get to see every day.

Yeah, I heard this thing some years ago about like compound interest, and it was like about retirement, and it's like, if you don't start saving in your 20s, like you can never catch up, right? And that really stuck with me. And I really don't drink. I have a mostly vegan diet. I make these kind of hard choices, right? And part of it is because I'm thinking about the future. And so I'm living in the present,

but I know that like all of these years, you know, of meditating and like standing up for what I believe in and defending people's rights to show the art that they wanna show and having the difficult conversations, you know, like that's like in my, like the bank of my soul.

Right, yeah, you're making deposits in the integrity bank account, the karma bank account. Yeah. Right? That's been compounding interest all these years. Yeah. Yeah, that's cool. Well, the last thing I wanna ask you before we wrap it up is, you know, it's kind of hearkening back to what we were talking about

at the beginning of the conversation, but just like for somebody who's listening to this, who is still grappling with this idea of like, should I care about this? Like, I just wanna like leave people with like a little spark of inspiration to get them in the door or get them thinking about art in a way that maybe historically they haven't.

Yeah. I mean, what I would say is like, what have you got to lose? Like why not try it? And one of the things we say at the museum is like, if you don't like what you see, come back again, because it's gonna be different. Like it's gonna be different

and you're gonna be different. And I did this show in Aspen, it was called Zombies, colon pay attention. And it was inspired by this Bruce Nauman work, which is one of my favorite works of art of all time. And I may have talked to you about it before, but it's writing in reverse as if it's like in a mirror. And I don't know if I can swear,

but it says, pay attention, motherfuckers. And like that was kind of my mantra for a long time. It's like, pay attention, motherfuckers. You know, like you only have one life, like this moment gone, this moment gone, this moment gone. So it's like, what do you wanna do? Like, what are you here to do? And Rand Stegen said to me,

like you're doing the world a great disservice by playing small. So like, why not look at art? Why not try it? I think that's a great place to end it. I'm inspired now. That worked. I love what you do.

And I love this person that you've become. It's been cool to watch you from the sidelines, like mature into this role that you've clearly earned. And I just, I salute you. I'm at your service and I think it's great, Heidi. So I appreciate you coming and sharing with me today. I wish you well, as we near the opening, it's gonna be a big moment for you.

And in the meantime, everybody should pick up Conversations with Artists 3. Is it still only available on the ACMA website? Yeah, you inspired me with your book and not having it on Amazon. And I was like, why not drive traffic to the ACMA website? I mean, honestly, the website's not very great yet, but it'll get better as we get closer to the opening.

Well, now you have to click pop-up to find the book. It should at least say book or something, to make it a little bit easier for people. Maybe we'll address that. Yeah, so it's okma.art and then click pop-up. You'll find the book there. If you're in Orange County, the museum opens October. Do you have a set date?

Yes, we do. And I'd actually like to invite everyone who's listening to come. So October 8th, 5 p.m., 24 hour opening. So October 8th, 5 p.m. to October 9th, 5 p.m. Open all night? Open all night. Oh, wow.

Sunrise yoga, movies for insomniacs, tours of the exhibitions with past curators, directors, silent dance party, music, like ceremony to kick it off. That sounds pretty cool. Something to close. That sounds like a pretty groovy opening. Yeah, it's gonna be amazing.

And everyone's welcome, totally free. Until then, you can also listen to Heidi's podcast, Conversations About Art, which you can find on all the podcast platforms. Anywhere else you wanna direct people? I think that's it. I think that's good. All right, how you feel?

You feel okay? I feel great. We did it. Yeah. It was cool. Yeah, I feel like we could do version two and three and four. Absolutely, absolutely. Lots to talk about.

Yeah, right on. All right, I love you, Heidi. Thank you. Absolutely, absolutely. Lots to talk about. Yeah, right on. All right, I love you, Heidi. Thank you. To be continued. Thank you so much. Peace. That's it for today. Thank you for listening.

I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guests, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive, as well as podcast merch, my books, Finding Ultra,

Voicing Change in the Plant Power Way, as well as the Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do as well as the Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube,

and leave a review and or comment. Supporting the sponsors who support the show is also important and appreciated, and sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is of course awesome and very helpful. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, the meal planner,

and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo with additional audio engineering by Cale Curtis. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis with assistance by our creative director, Dan Drake. Portraits by Davy Greenberg and Grayson Wilder.

Graphic and social media assets, courtesy of Jessica Miranda, Daniel Solis, Dan Drake, and AJ Akpudiyete. Thank you, Georgia Whaley for copywriting and website management. And of course, our theme music was created by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support. See you back here soon.

Peace. Plants. Namaste. Thank you.