The Rich Roll Podcast - High Performance Psychologist Michael Gervais on How To Master Mindfulness in Sports & Life

Episode Date: December 22, 2014

At the highest echelons of sport, all the athletes are supremely talented. All have devoted their lives to being the best they can be. All train as hard as they possibly can. And all are optimizing their sleep, nutrition and recovery to glean every extra edge imaginable. So what distinguishes the gold medalist from the also ran? Is it luck? Talent? Support? Resources? Of course every result is significantly influenced by some combination of these important variables. But all things being equal, the athlete with the mental and emotional edge will stand atop the podium every time. Once the embarrassing last stop on a flailing athlete’s career, the world's top sports psychologists now enjoy a highly influential and respected role proactively honing the mental and emotional edge of today's most successful athletes, CEOs and creatives looking to elevate peak performance beyond the imaginable. Enter Dr. Michael Gervais- the go to high performance psychologist everyone is talking about. Director of the High Performance Psychology arm of DISC (Diagnostic and Interventional Surgical Center) Sports & Spine Center in Marina Del Rey and a key member of the Red Bull High Performance Program, Michael works in the trenches of high-stakes environments, where there is no luxury for mistakes, hesitation, or failure to respond. With the vision of helping his clients thrive under pressure, Michael has created a performance model — melding state-of-the-art brain mapping techniques with an approach grounded in high-performance psychology — that allows people to achieve their maximum potential, whether on or off the field. Dr. Gervais' results are staggering. If you follow the NFL, then you might recall Michael as the guy Seattle Seahawks coach Pete Carroll credits as integral in their Super Bowl win for the meditation, mindfulness and other crucial team building techniques he helped foster and instill into the fabric of the Seahawks organization and team culture that paved the team’s path towards incredible success. You might also remember that Felix Baumgartner’s now-infamous Red Bull Stratos jump from an altitude of 128,000 feet almost never was simply because Felix simply could not overcome the high level of anxiety and claustrophobia he experienced every time he donned the jump suit. It was none other than Gervais who helped Baumagartner resolve the issue and get Stratos back on track. No Gervais, no history making jump. In addition to the Seahawks and Red Bull's North American athletes, Dr. Gervais has worked with the US Olympic Team, snowboarders, golfers, basketball players, track and field athletes, an impressive array of top collegiate programs, and professional sports organizations including the NBA, NFL, NHL, MLB and UFC. In addition, his work has played an integral role in the US Military, as well as several collegiate and high school programs. While Dr. Gervais’ roster includes some of the sports world’s most elite, this isn’t just about high performance athletes, its about high performance life. To coin his phrase,

If we can teach the next generation, this now has a ring to me that gets me really fired up, about how to quiet our minds so that we can be more connected to who we are at our center. That's the whole reason I'm in this game of sport and performance psychology, is that I want to help people quiet their minds, to learn the skills to do that. That was sports psychologist Michael Gervais, and this is The Rich Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey, everyone. My name is Rich Roll. I am your host. Welcome to the 120th episode of the podcast. Thank you for listening. Thank you for subscribing to the show on iTunes. Thank you for subscribing

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again, go to recovery.com. All right, this week we're back to sports. And at the highest echelons of sport, irrespective of discipline, all the athletes are supremely talented. They all have devoted their lives to being the very best they can be, and they all train incredibly hard, as hard as they possibly can. And increasingly, more and more so, they're all dialing up their nutrition for that extra edge. So, all things being even in this regard, what is it that distinguishes the gold medalist from the also-ran? What is it that distinguishes the gold medalist from the also-ran? Is it luck? Is it talent? Is it support? Is it resources?

Well, of course, sometimes, or it's the athlete who has the mental and emotional edge that is going to stand atop the podium. The athlete whose head is screwed on properly, is emotionally fit, who's grounded, who believes at his or her core that he or she is the very best and can and ultimately will win, that's what carries the day. It's incredibly powerful. We have this idea that some people or athletes, we're talking about athletes this week, but really this applies to anybody. Certain people are just born with a natural mental inherent sense of self, I guess you could say, that just allows them to simply succeed or win at will, like the world just unfolding at their feet. It's not true. And another false idea we have is that if you don't feel this way, that if you're somebody who's faltering or falling short of your best or your potential or somebody who's simply off in whatever it is that you're pursuing in your life in some respect.

And this motivates you to go, quote unquote, see somebody and quote, talk to somebody that this means that there must be something wrong with you. Inherently wrong with you, that you're flawed goods, so to speak, right? Of course, this isn't true. And the good news is that this perspective is changing, certainly in the realm of sports. And the sports psychologist is really no longer the last stop on a flailing athlete's career, but is now a crucial and indispensable team member in the success quotient of an athlete or a team looking to take peak performance to that next level. And the guy who's at the top of the heap, the go-to guy everyone's talking about right now, well, that guy is high-performance psychologist Dr. Michael Gervais. And as luck would have it, he's the guy who's on the podcast this week. How

about that, right? So who is this guy? Well, Michael is director of the high-performance psychology arm of DISC, D-I-S-C, which stands for Diagnostic and Interventional Surgical Center. It's a sports and spine center in Marina del Rey. It's an incredible facility. Michael gave me a tour of it. They do amazing things with athletes there, pillar to post, really phenomenal work. And Michael is also an integral member of Red Bull's high performance team working with extreme athletes. And really, he works in the trenches of high stakes environments where there is no luxury for mistakes, for hesitation or failure to respond.

And with the vision of helping his clients thrive under pressure, Michael has created a performance model, melding state-of-the-art brain mapping techniques with an approach grounded in high performance psychology. And it's an approach that allows people to achieve their maximum potential, whether on or off the field. And the result is a completely individualized performance plan that allows each person to train by fully engaging both their mind and their brain toward their personal best. And his results are staggering, I have to say. I mean, you might have seen pictures of guys in NFL uniforms sitting in the Lotus position meditating. Well, that's Dr. Gervais. You might know him as the guy the Seattle Seahawks coach Pete Carroll credits as integral in their Super Bowl win for the meditation, mindfulness, and

other crucial team building techniques and practices that he helped foster and instill into the fabric of the Seahawks organization and team culture that have paved that team's path towards incredible success. There's a great piece in ESPN magazine and on ESPN.com on this. I'll put a link up in the show notes to that. You should definitely check that out. And you might also remember that Felix Baumgartner's now infamous Red Bull Stratos jump from space. Everybody remember that? What you might not remember, or maybe you will, is that that project was almost completely shelved because Felix could not resolve the high level of anxiety and claustrophobia that he would experience

every time he put the suit on. And it was Gervais who got Baumgartner and Stratos back on track by getting him comfortable on the suit, by resolving those anxiety and claustrophobic issues. So no Gervais, no history making jump. And there's a great piece on this in Outside Magazine, and I'll put a link up to that, to the online version of that article in the show notes on the blog. By the way, please read the show notes this week. There are tons of great articles, a great reading list on this subject matter, the work of Dr. Gervais, the Seahawks, the Stratos Mission, mindfulness, meditation techniques, their applicability in sports and beyond, lots of good stuff there. So anyway, gold medalists, Olympic athletes like Kerry Walsh and Eric Shanto, swimmers, snowboarders, golfers, basketball players, track and field athletes, the NBA, NFL, NHL, MLB, UFC, the U.S. Olympic team, and again, Red Bull's North American athletes. Dr. Gervais has worked with all of them, including the U.S. military, as well as several collegiate and high school programs. And while his roster includes some of the sports world's most elite, this isn't just about high

performance athletes. It's about high performance life. Because like athletes, all of us are required to perform daily. We all navigate our own high stakes environments and we can all benefit just as much with the right training. As Michael says, every day we have the opportunity to create a living masterpiece. Every day we have the opportunity to create a living masterpiece. So how do we do that? What is the secret and how is human potential best cultivated? The answers might surprise you because it's not about motivation and it's not about winning. It's about the way it feels to be who you are. It's about courage and it's about exploring what's possible. So sit back, enjoy my conversation with the sagacious, insightful, and thoughtful Michael Gervais on exploring the boundaries of human

potential. I'll catch you on the flip side. I feel like I want to take this opportunity to just make it all about me and have like a personal private consultation with you about all of my neuroses and that are impeding my performance. Some of that's bound to happen. Yeah, I know. So we're in the offices of DISC, D-I-S-C. What does that stand for? Diagnostical Interventional Spinal Center. So what goes on here? This is a pretty impressive situation you have. Yeah, it's a group of 20 or so folks that pulled their money together to build a state-of-the-art surgical center.

And then it's an integrative services. So we've got everything from chiro, soft tissue, acupuncture, acupressure, obviously performance psychology. We've got high performance brain services. But the thing that drives the whole thing is we've got spine surgeons and orthosurgeons that are, you know, really kind of running shop in the surgical center. And we have intercom announcements as well to keep us up to speed on what's going on here. Was that in this building? I think so, yeah. It's the first time I've ever heard an announcement.

I hope it's not an emergency. Yeah, and what's cool is when you walk through the halls here, I mean, there's just pictures and posters all over the wall. It's just a who's who of, like, great athletes everywhere you look. Like, this place is just oozing, like, performance optimization. Yeah, and that's what the people that are involved are really interested in. And so when you create that common thread of interest, you know, it's just that that's what happens. Right, right, right. So do you actually see athletes in this office here or usually on site for that kind of thing? It's a little bit of both. So here, what happens here

for me is that the way that I'm structured is that I've got four clients at any given point in time. And then I've got projects, which is more like intellectual-based development. And then I've got teams that I'm fortunate enough to work with. So it's like those three hubs is how I spend my time. So when you say four clients or four athletes, do you, you, you put a cap on it? You only work with four athletes at any given moment. Yeah, that's exactly right. And what I've come to learn is that, um, man, it, it, we got to roll up our sleeves to really do this thing right. And to really understand the essence of a person, uh, to get in and do some work that is transformational for me, I don't, I mean,

there's lots of ways to work with people, you know, but for me, I like to go all the way in, be completely immersed with that process, and then spend some deep, rich quality time. And to do that, it's so engaging that I limited to a number of people and storylines that I can follow with authenticity. a number of people and storylines that I can follow with authenticity. Yeah, I like that. And authenticity is really kind of the touchstone of this show. And one of the things that I'm always trying to probe and get a grip on is this gap that exists between inspiration and action, right? Because I feel like inspiration is really easy. It's you can you can inspire people almost lazily, like through an Instagram post or something like that. But but to really, truly catalyze action and, it sounds glib, but like if there's a way to kind of articulate, you know, what that gap is and how you begin to piece together a way to traverse that gap

from inspiration to action. I've never heard it quite put that way. So, let me talk around how I understand it. But you're right, there is a gap between an idea and being able to execute the idea. And then can you sustain that execution at a high level? That's where my antenna pop up. It's like, is there sustainable, excellent performance? And sometimes in very hostile environments. That's how, for me, I understand mastery is can I do it in quiet moments and then in very, you know, electric or hostile or competitive moments. And so, inspiration for me is about breathing life into something. And most of the people I work with, they already have high levels of inspired ways of living.

Meaning they've got the idea of what they want to do or how they want to be, and they're looking to sustain excellent performance wherever they go. So, what's the gap between the two? It's, you know, I mean, that's kind of the science of psychology, right, is really understanding who a person is anchored to where they're wanting to take their life, and that's twofold. Who they, how they want to be. And the second part of it is what they want to do. And, you know, it's the balance of those two that I spend time with people. So, first get an image of where they're going with their life, who they're becoming and how they want to do the things that are most important to them,

their craft, if you will, and balance with who they are in this moment. And it really has to do with, I mean, it's an inside out thing, right? Like you have to get to the very core of who somebody is. It's not like come in and I'll evaluate you in a half an hour and I'll give you this laundry list of five things that are going to fix everything, you know? Like disabuse me of some of the notions that people carry around about what it is that you actually do. Oh, that's a good way to ask the question. So, this is what happens. So, if I'm in a public place, one of my, like a party setting or something like that, one of my least favorite initiations of engagement with people is when they ask or, you know, I've just refused to

box myself into this question when I ask other people, but when they ask, so what do you do? Oh, God, okay. Let's see where we're going with this, you know. And, but if I really get down to like, what is it that I, how I spend my time, I'm really curious. And I'm fascinated by how people pursue their potential and how they pursue a life that has meaning and value and they're able to express themselves through a craft. And so, basically, I'm a curious person. I want to know what better is and I want to understand it through the power of being now. And so, that's how I describe it. Like, I'm really curious and I've been curious with how the best in the world work for a

long time. And so, I've got this science that I've been able to study about human thinking and behavior and being able to understand it. And so, I bring this conversation between ancient wisdoms and current modern cutting edge science to the conversation about how the best in the world operate and how they sustain what's driving them. Yeah. So, let's just camp out here for a minute on this idea of mindfulness and presence. I mean, mindfulness, meditation, these are concepts ages old, but they're very much having a zeitgeist moment right now.

Like there is a resurgence of interest in these ideas and their application across the board, whether it's in the workforce or in the home or in the context of what you specialize in, which is human performance in the athletic context. So that must be nice for you. It's being received in a way that, you know, a few years ago, even, it wasn't. Yeah. I think for me, it caught me by surprise that so many people are actually interested in this. And I'd like to unwind kind of how it happened for me, but it makes sense right now. We are in an off-terrain way of living. There's not a very clear roadmap for people in the business sense, in the family sense. Our dynamics for living are changing, and they're unfolding rapidly. It was 30 years ago.

I don't know how old you are, but my folks, like, you know, there's this idea that you just kind of get connected to a industry or a career path and you stay that thing with either a corporation or entrepreneur venture. But now, I don't know what the average is, but I know people are changing rapidly their career paths, you know? And so, I'm getting a little away from the central idea I want to share is that what I think is taking place is that we're moving so fast. We've got technology pulling on us. We've got, there's no roadmap for how to live an amazing life. But the ancient wisdoms, that's what they solved. That's what they were really about, whether it's, you know, that's what they solved. That's what they were really about, whether it's, you know, Jesus or Buddha or Confucius or Muhammad or, you know, the ancient traditions, the Stoics, if you will. That's what they were trying to solve. Like, what is the good life? What is the way of living? And so, there's something really important about anchoring to that part of the wisdom that's been

carried down through, you know, as we've huddled around fires for thousands of years, there's something that's still pure about that that's important for us to anchor to. And one of those tenets, one of them is, you know, living presently and being here now. And it sounds glib to use your word, you know, because it's thrown around so much now, but there's so much power in being able to have a stillness about yourself in this present moment. And what I'm fascinated with is accessing at a very highly refined way, a craft. Can you be still in this moment and access something that you've literally trained, you know, for 10, 20 years to refine? Right, right. I mean, it's this convergence of the acceleration of technology

and kind of, you know, economic spirals that have cast aside the kind of security that comes with a long-term career and this kind of freelance, you know, generation that's growing up. And it's all happening. There it is again, another announcement. It's all happening. Oh, is that your computer? What is it? Yeah. It's like the, oh gosh, what's it called? It was my- Is it your computer? Yeah, my computer was- Let me go turn that off. It's all right. Yeah, we'll just turn the music down. No problem. All right, you never know.

And we're back. Cool. Yeah, I think it's happening so quickly that it's happening far too quickly for our kind of DNA to acclimate, right? And I think it's creating a lot of confusion and depression and questioning of, you know, how should I be using my time, you know? And, yeah, and where are the answers to these questions? Well, it's happening so quickly that, you know, the current sort of people that are writing books can't even keep up with it. So, we go back to the ancients, right? It's pretty nice. And it's nice that it still rings true. of those concepts into this field of, of performance, like how, how to access those

states, uh, and, and leverage them to be better in whatever your particular field is, whether it's as an athlete or an executive or what have you. And the thing that I've, I've, it's very clear to me right now is that we take our minds everywhere we go. And whether it's in business or... Unfortunately. Yeah, right. And so, you know, if we can study how our mind works and have some clarity about that, we take it everywhere we go. Every one of us goes into a boardroom at some point, you know, or a business setting at

some point. Every one of us goes into a coffee shop or a restaurant or a living room or in a bedroom. And we also go into, some of us go into, you know, highly competitive business or sporting environments. And if we can really understand how our mind works, there's a sense of freedom that can be unlocked. So, what that means is that while I've spent my time in the trenches with some of the most unbelievable athletes, you know, from Olympic to action sports to, you know, I'd love to share some stories there, but what we can learn from them is how to be still.

We can learn that from them because some athletes will nod their head to this, not some, but many will nod their head to this, that there's an aliveness that comes together when they get completely absorbed in the present moment. And, you know, the flow state or zone or whatever people might call it, no mind, the ancient wisdoms talked about. And so, you know, if we can understand how to prime our environments for that and unlock that state of being more frequently, that's part of the good life now. Yeah, of course.

It's part of the good life now. Yeah, of course. Part of it. Of course. And being able to access it at will and live in it and not have it be a fleeting happenstance. You know, I mean, great athletic performances, great artistic performances, great musical performances. You know, these are all things that these people will tell you when they occur, they don't know how they occur. They just come because they're in this state of presence, this state of no mind. And I remember it being a revelation to me when I first really got the idea that I am not my thinking mind, that the idle chatter and the looping and the sort of repeated messages that are, you know, constantly kind of firing in my head are actually distinct from who I am as a person or my higher state of consciousness.

And the journey towards trying to develop some level of mastery over that idle chatter and being able to be present enough to not be impulsed or reactive to it, but to be able to consciously choose whether I'm going to engage in those thoughts or not is incredibly powerful. You've been doing some work. Well, it's been a long road, my man. You've been doing some work. I'm not always in the driver's seat on it, but I have my moments.

That's so cool. Yeah. So that rings true for me. What you just described, you know, it speaks such to the center of what I'm trying to do as well and what people are actually that I'm spending time with trying to understand how to do as well. And it's almost like this arena of high performance, whether it be sport or arts or business, it's just the captivity of conversation. It's the thread that they've

spent most of their time doing that allows us to have this unique vibe to talk about, okay, who are you at your center, right? Because obviously you're leaning into life. You're wanting or feeling inspired about something. You're leaning into life. Let me put an asterisk to that. I want to come back to motivation in a minute. And, you know, can we figure out a way for us to achieve more, but never lose touch or sight of what it feels like to have meaning in life and to make a difference and to be able to be fully present along that journey. And you've talked about, you mentioned kind of meaning earlier, and I'd like to kind of visit that idea of the importance of meaning and maybe its cousin, you know, service in terms of overall kind of fulfillment, whether you're an athlete or anybody actually having that aspect of whatever your mission is and how that contributes to kind

of overall long-term satisfaction to keep you kind of on mission. Yeah. And I think missions change. I think that over time, you know, and one of the reasons I tend to hesitate a little bit with interviews is because it's now, this interview that we're doing now is going to be locked in time forever as it is, as if neither of us have ever grown from the time that this is printed, you know? So it's, it's like ideas are fluid, you know, growth is fluid. I'm growing, you know, I'm going to hopefully grow through this conversation. And, you know, I mean, so this idea that there's one mission in life and that's it, I don't resonate completely with it. But there are pockets in time when I'm definitely mission-minded.

And I've got a mission now in my life that's very clear, which helps things. So I just think that it's important for, if you don't have a mission, it's not really clear, to really do some of the lonely work to say, well, what am I doing? How am I going to generate meaning in my life? And that's a pretty clear thing, right? Like, am I making a difference and am I impacting other people? And, you know, am I living a life that's true for me? It's very, very personal too. I mean, meaning is very much different from person to person.

What's personally meaningful to you and how do you specifically contribute? What are your unique gifts that you can offer that are going to give you that sense of satisfaction? Yeah. And I think it's this context of meaning that we're talking about. It's important that we anchor that we're making a different, part of having a meaningful life is that we're making a difference. Like we're doing something that has some nobility, if you will, to helping somebody else or even a generation of people. And that's part of what I've come to learn that when people say, you know, I just, I'm searching for meaning and what is the meaning? Really what they want is they want to make a difference. They want to know they matter and the relationships that they have are authentic. But I feel like a lot of people, maybe most people,

at least in Western culture, are so disconnected from these ideas. And not that it's anybody's fault. Like we said, we live in this super fast-paced culture. We just got to get through the day and there's kids to feed and the boss is yelling at me and what have you.

There's no time for that inner space, for that kind of emphasis on presence. And because of that, we don't spend a lot of time kind of pondering the greater meaning of our life and the trajectory that you know, that would create the most satisfaction and value for our culture. And I think that that creates, that creates a, you know, a culture of discontent. You know, it's a crisis of conscience that I think is widespread. Yeah, I'm not gonna, I'm nodding my head to that because I think what happens is we haven't taught. I was never taught this in school by the people that are teaching. In American culture, we teach the value of acquiring information. We teach how to learn as we develop in the academic system. develop in the academic system. And so, but I was never taught purposefully how to be present, how to, the life skills, if you will, about, you know, anchoring into the bigger stuff.

That was left for either religion or your parents or that was left for somewhere else. But we have time to be present, to be connected. We have the time, but we don't have the skill. And so, if we can unpack that, and it's not a long journey now to understand how our minds work. It's not an ever-minding or ever-winding kind of journey to get enough to understand your own mind. I mean, you're really clear about how your mind works. Sometimes it's easily distracted. Sometimes you've got conversations that are thoughts that you don't want to have, or sometimes you have thoughts that are right in line with what you're doing and who you want to be. And we don't need

to water all of our thoughts. So, I'm distracted in this kind of muse, if you will. No, I like that though. Yeah. So, if we can teach the next generation, this now has a ring to me that gets me really fired up, about how to quiet our minds so that we can be more connected to who we are at our center. That's the whole reason I'm in this game of sport and performance psychology is that I want to help people quiet their minds, to learn the skills to do that. Because when we do that, we touch what's beautiful. We touch our spiritual experience. And some people call it God. Other people call it, you know, other names.

And so, for me, that's when I'm helping people is when they learn how to be able to be quiet in their own mind and be here. And I think young people are into it. You know, that's my experience. They're much more open to it than our generation. You know, it's like, are you kidding? Like, if somebody told you in college, you know, I don't know. I don't know what your experience was, but I would have been like, you know, forget that. You know, like show me the Benjamins.

Yeah. And it's true because it's really the foundation. if I had just invested like a quarter of the time that I invest now into that interior space of figuring out, you know, what I wanted to be and express, I could have saved myself decades of toil and yearning and unhappiness and angst, you know, because it has to come first. And so, what happens, I'm sure you experience this all the time. Somebody comes to you, an athlete, and says, this is my goal. People come to me, they say, help me figure out how I'm going to finish this Ironman or do this marathon. And I usually say, well, why are you doing this? Why is this important to you? And I find that quite often they don't quite

know. And I'm thinking maybe this isn't the right goal for you to be chasing. What's going on in your life that's being underserved or is underdeveloped that is driving you to quest for this, but maybe there's something else that you should be, that your energy would be better served looking into instead of hanging your hat on this race or whatever the case may be. That spooks people, doesn't it? Yeah, they don't want to talk about that. And they say, thank you very much. And they call somebody else.

I had probably top, we'll say, five gymnasts in the country, which means she's one top in the world, maybe top ten in the world. And she was, I think, probably 14 at the age. And she came with her mom. This was maybe ten years ago. And she came with her mom, and they sat down. We're having a great discussion. That's probably like 15 years ago now. And it was apparent. This young, bright, 4.0 private education kid that was actually doing high-level gymnastics and school, which is

really rare at the top. So she's super smart and driven. She had OCD, 100%. OCD was like jumping all over the table. So I asked her to leave just so I can talk to mom for a minute. And I said, listen, this might be hard for you to hear. Your daughter's amazing. Here's the things that I'm able to see as assets. And here's the thing that I think is right

underneath the surface of why you came in. She's got obsessive compulsive disorder. I said, we can work on that. And if we do that work, there is no guarantee that she'll be able to get the results that she's been getting in gymnastics because that OCD is actually driving that need for compulsive and obsessive thoughts. Doing things just right to feel okay is fueling perfectionism for her. And so... That's scary.

You're not going to be surprised by what mom did. Yeah, she said. She showed you the door. She said, thanks. So, she's going to be a codependent partner in fostering this OCD through Olympic glory. Yeah. And what ended up happening is that I followed kind of her trajectory and she did relatively well, but I don't think she was able to really reach her potential. Interesting. Yeah, it brings up this idea of the implication of character defects, negative character aspects, which actually might be fueling performance.

Like in my own case, like, you know, as a good alcoholic, like I'm a control freak, right? I want to control every aspect of my life. Of course, I don't control any of those things. of my life. Of course, I don't control any of those things. It's an illusion and it doesn't serve me, but I have this mentality that believes that that's actually a benefit to the focus that I put into my training and how meticulous I am about this and that. And it's very difficult for me. I grapple with it and I know that I would be better served by surrendering and letting go, which is not my default state and I'm constantly working on it. But I'm interested in hearing about some other kinds of, you know, like if somebody is really, you know, I guess you

could say ego-fueled or narcissistic or, I mean, on some level, the level of athletes that you're dealing with, there has to be an ego component to that, to actually believe that they could be the best in the world. I mean, there's a level of like a semi-delusional aspect to that, but that belief system is part of what's allowing them to be successful. Yeah. I mean, there's, you know, them to be successful. Yeah. I mean, there's, you know, for some of the best in the world, there's just enough anxiety, just enough of OCD, just enough narcissism, just enough perfectionism to allow people to, you know, to really train at a obnoxious pace, at a diligent, painful pace to become

masterful at something. And while I'd love to be able to say that all the best in the world are really healthy people and, you know, truth is there's a smattering of well-being at the top. But yeah, there's some stuff in there for us to, you know, we can unpack that for sure. But I love this conversation about control, you know, that you were just talking about because it is such, it is so scary to let go and at the same time, we think we can control much and it's safer, and it's just a lot of extra energy spent.

A lot of wasted energy. It's just a lot of stuff, you know. And here's, play with this idea. Is that letting go is a big part of lot of stuff. And play with this idea. Is that letting go is a big part of being present. So it requires some trust. And so what are we trusting? If we can trust that whatever's about to come next, everything we need is already inside us. So if we can anchor into that thought, so whatever's going to come next to my life

i've got what it takes to be able to adjust to it i might not like it it might not be easy or pleasant it might not be what i wanted but whatever comes next i can nod my head like i'm going to be able to lean into it and adjust and i'll figure it out that's the space where faith comes in you know and i think that uh you know for me that's a big part like you know that's the space where faith comes in, you know? And I think that, you know, for me, that's a big part, you know, that's a big part of recovery because you have to have faith that if you let go as a control freak, that the world isn't going to fall apart. Like that, that, that ridiculous, obnoxious, narcissistic ideal is actually not true. And that provides that, that space, you know? and I think by exploring that,

then you start to develop this awareness of, you know, higher states of consciousness. Yeah. I mean, if you're trying to control everything, you just end up staying kind of like small. Small and miserable. Yeah. Just kind of like hoarding. And alone and isolated. Yeah. It's a good protector, isn't it? Yeah. Well, I think that, you know, control is a good platform to kind of talk about the difference between working with an athlete who's part of an organization or a team, like working with the Seahawks, where every athlete plays a role in a larger unit versus the gymnast or the runner or, you know, somebody who's in a more, much more individualistic sport. I mean, individual sports, of course, they require teams of people around them to support them at the elite level, but it's a different thing,

right? So, how does that drive, like, how you work with your clients? Well, I just think it's understanding the difference. There's a different skill set and appreciation between team sports and individual sports. My work in combat sports, the UFC, when the cage door closes, it's man against man. It's the most ancient of being tested. You know, you get your, your head and your hands and that's it.

And your skill, right? So that's a very different performance state than working with a team, whether it's very interdependent and yeah. So there's, there's checks and balances on both sides, but understanding that there's a different makeup for those two sports in general is really important. I mean, and when we're choosing what craft we want to get engaged with or helping guide our kids, you know, that's important to understand that as well. I mean, is there a difference between the kind of mentality of somebody who excels in an individual sport versus somebody who's a great team member? Yeah, I wouldn't say that it's like, okay, here's the one, two, three things that are different.

But in essence, people that are in individual sports, what I've come to learn is that they have the ability to, it's all on their shoulders and that's how they want it. So, it begins and ends with their- Control freaks. Well, you said it, not me. But that's totally the difference. Right, right, right. And what about the difference between an athlete?

I mean, listen, the stakes are very high at the elite level, no matter what sport you're in. no matter what sport you're in, but there's a difference between the action sport athletes or the Felix's where, you know, the ramifications of a mistake or a mishap are potentially life threatening, right? Or whether they're in the cage or they're jumping off the Stratos or they're doing some crazy, you know, motorcycle stunt where if something goes wrong, they're going to die. And I would imagine that that creates a tremendous amount of anxiety that would be... For the person or for the people involved? I mean, I don't know. I'm interested in hearing your thoughts about what it's like to work with those athletes versus maybe a track and field athlete. Sure. Yeah. So, I think this will be a counterintuitive insight is that I've been

fortunate enough to work with some, just some wonderfully talented risks, what seems to be risk-taking individuals in the action sports space. And what they've taught me is the majority of them don't see themselves as risk-takers. We look at it and go, that's crazy. We look at it and like, I can't believe the risk that this person's taking. They must not love their mom. They must not love their wife. They must not love their husbands because of what they're doing and the harm that they're putting themselves in way. But what we're missing when we see the final feat, if you will, is that we're missing all of the skill that's developed over

time for them and the refinement of that skill and the trust that these people have in their skills. And they're really clear that they become most alive when they're on the edge of their capabilities and they're forced to be fully engaged in the craft. So that's a complete connection that is happening for them. And that's true. The science backs that up. It's for us to be most, you know, the flow state, if we'll talk about that for a minute. It's when we're at the edge of our capability, when we're in that pocket between, I've got great skill and the challenge that I'm about to face is real. That our physiology lights up and that's where we can enter into that place where it's like, okay, I've got to be really on point for this.

Yeah, I mean, I get that. I don't think it's counterintuitive at all. I mean, I... The counterintuitive part is that they don't see themselves as risk takers. Right, right, right. Well, also, you know, what the observer doesn't really understand is the incremental work that went to get there. So if it's a big wave surfer, for the 80-foot wave, he surfed the 5-foot wave, and then he surfed the 7-foot wave, and it just worked his way up so that by the time he's on the 80-foot wave, it doesn't have that dramatic impact that it does for the viewer. That's exactly right. it does for the viewer. And I recently met Alex Honnold, the climber, who just, you know, I just,

when I watch his videos, I'm just absolutely mystified and fixated on how somebody could, you know, climb El Cap, you know, or Half Dome without ropes. Like I'm watching it just, I cannot wrap my brain around the kind of, you know, state of presence of mind that somebody like that would have to be in to be calm and execute what he needs to do to climb up these rock faces. And he says the same thing. It's just, he doesn't see it as a risk. He's worked it out. He understands, you know, everything that could happen and he's trained it. He understands the wall. He knows what he needs to do. He understands everything that could happen and he's trained it. He understands the

wall. He knows what he needs to do. He's calculated everything. And still I'm thinking, yeah, but what if like a rogue gust of wind comes by? I mean, the ramifications for one mishap are cataclysmic. Oh yeah, that's the deal is that the consequence is really high. So it's this interplay between, there's risk involved, but it's not the risk that the viewers are really high. So, it's this interplay between, there's risk involved, but it's not the risk that the viewers are perceiving it to be. And yeah, it's that level of commitment is real. And most of us don't get that in our daily living. We don't have the opportunities for it. And I look at those people like modern day Buddhas, because the level, you know, like we were saying, like the state of

consciousness that they have to enter into, the mastery of the mind is phenomenal. Yeah. Right? This, what we're talking about is the topic of the book that I'm working on right now. That's exactly it. So, what do these folks, these men and women have to teach us that are on the edge of capability? So, what do they have to teach us? Oh, they've got so much to teach us.

Well, they've got to teach us like, here's an idea that I think is really important, is that they, most of them, not all, most of them, it's more painful for them to walk away from an idea or an experience like El Cap, if you will, than to go for it and become bruised or banged or even, you know, critically injured and even death, you know? So, think about that statement. It's more painful to have an idea that's possible to walk away from it because of fear and to live with that fear is more painful than actually going for it and becoming hurt.

And hand in hand with that is the idea that really pain is the only true motivator of personal change. I say that all the time. Oh, you do? Yeah, and people look at me like I'm crazy. No, well, I'm just looking at my own life experience and knowing that the only time that I've really ever changed in a significant way is just because I was in enough pain in order to do it. Yeah, that's been my experience as well, is that people change. It's difficult to change, you know, to change habits, to change thinking, to change patterns that are unconscious, if you will.

And the only reason I understand people change is because of great pain. Right. Yeah. But change is possible without that. It's just trickier. No, I think that there's small pain. So let's use running for an example. Is that you and I could set out for a run and let's say that my socks are a little bit maladjusted and I'm on mile two.

And I know I'm going to get a bad blister and it might turn to bleeding or whatever. And it might stop me from being able to finish it. And so I'll stop and adjust my socks. So I'm changing something. It might cost me some serious time and the whole thing, but you've got a different kind of value set. And you're like, I feel the blister, but I'm going to go and my feet are going to be bloodied and I'm not going to stop. So that's kind of what an alcoholic does. Right. Yeah. You're not in your ladder. Yeah. Right. And you just go and go and go until that pain is so great that you can't go anymore.

So, there's levels of pain, right? Dissatisfaction of not being able to be fully present at the starting blocks in the Olympics is a sort of pain. So is banging your head against the wall because you've dramatically fallen from a climb. There's literal physical pain and then there's the pain of not being as all of you. Right, but if someone's elevator is going down and you as somebody who's looking at it from the outside looking in, you know what the solution is or the change that that person could make to save themselves from some level of despair that they're headed towards. You can't will upon them that change. You can't give them the willingness that's required to make that change. That has to be self-generated. But I'm obsessed with trying to find ways to help people avoid that bottom, to catalyze change short of, so they don't have to suffer. That's right. Increase pain for people's lives.

Right. So what do you, you bring the bottom up, make them suffer enough so that it will generate their own willingness. I mean, I see it all the time in recovery. It's like, they say, you know, recovery is not for the people that need it. It's for the people that want it. Right. And, and, and not everyone gets it. And it's painful to watch people come in and know what the solution is for them and to see them struggle. When you know if they could make a couple simple life alterations that they would be able to get it. And it's painful to watch that. Yeah, it is.

So, in the athletic context, to see like, oh, if this person would do this one thing, their performance would improve 10x. Yeah. I think one of the ways that I help increase this for folks is by helping people make a fundamental decision. Am I setting myself, my life efforts up to avoid failure or to approach success? And most people say, no, no, no, I'm about approaching success. And then you give them an opportunity that has fear involved in it. And which one do they choose? Is there hesitation?

Is there, you know, attention? Or are they leaning in and like, yeah, going for it? Most people have tension around the opportunity to go for it. So most people are designing their whole life efforts to avoid failure. And that's one of, if people can really have an honest look at that, I think it's one of the most fundamental decisions we make about orientating our life. If we can get them to look honestly at the way that they're doing that, that increases the pain tremendously for people. Right. I mean, the pain associated with not trying is not that great. Right.

Right? Unless you're called on it. Unless you're called on it. Unless you're called on it. Like, listen, you say that you're going for it, but you're really holding back by all these kind of excuses. And people are like, oh, I've been exposed. Right, right, right. Yeah, I mean, there's the fear of failure. There's the fear of success, which probably doesn't get enough attention.

But we're in a comfort-seeking culture where risk-taking isn't necessarily always encouraged. And so, it's easy to just say, I'm not going to try. And if you don't try, you risk nothing. Right. You don't ever get to find out. Right. You're just in your comfort zone. Yeah. That's a dirty word in this office. Oh, comfort zone? Yeah, dirty word. Really? Why is that? Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, when we move... It's antiquated.

Yeah. Well, when we move outside of... No, no, no. I'm saying when... Oh, being in your comfort zone is... Right, right. Yeah. You know, it's the layer outside of the comfort zone where real learning takes place.

But people are so afraid of panic and failure, which is maybe the next ring outside of being uncomfortable. failure, which is maybe the next ring outside of being uncomfortable. If you think of it like circles in a tree center that, yeah, people just, you know, are searching for comfort rather than growth. Right. That's why. Well, we need to demystify failure and we need to encourage failure. We're so afraid of failing, but failing is an essential aspect of every success. You know, I know the phrase you use is like fail fast, right? Fail fast. I mean, and I learned that from business folks.

Like, go for it. You know, the innovation kind of in business is fail, fail fast, fail forward. Like, figure it out as you go. And I've been playing with this idea for failure that not going is failure. But going and making a mistake is a whole different setup. So, go for it. Make mistakes. We call it failure, but I think I'm reorientating the way I understand this is that failure is not going. It's not fully committing because people are watching or you're overthinking

about what could go wrong or you're overthinking the burden of if it goes right, fear of success and failure, right? So, I think that failure for me, as I'm growing deeper with this concept is that it's about not going. That's the failure. But going for it, making mistake, dust it off. Like, keep rolling. That's super powerful. That's really powerful. I really like that a lot because that really is the impediment to so many people trying new things that keep them stuck. Yeah. They're afraid of being judged if they don't succeed.

So, here's something that's – I love this part of our conversation because this was true for me when I was a kid and I grew up surfing, is that I was a different person in free surfing and when I was competitively surfing. Different. I was not better when I was competing. I was too consumed with what the outcome might be or what people were thinking about me. this full circle is that the only difference for the Olympic Games or World Championships or Super Bowl is that people are watching, more people are watching. And when people can settle into that idea and then make a decision like, no, no, no, I'm not going to change who I am because more eyeballs are watching me. I'm going to commit to how I want to feel and I want to commit to how I want to be and I'm going to commit to how I want to think and I want to commit to the highest level

of skill I possibly can and to do that everywhere I go. So, the work is in fortifying this strong sense of self because the idea is that you want to allow the athlete to be their most actualized self in these super stressful, high stakes contexts. Yeah. But so there's a nuance here, which is if you think it's stressful, then it is. If you think there's pressure, then you've created that. If you see it as an opportunity, if you see it as something different that doesn't have stress or pressure, you're also right. So, just because an environment is noisy and there's people watching doesn't mean that

there's pressure. I'm glad to get to sit in right there. Let that work a little bit. No, I mean, really what you're saying is that you create your own reality and your reality is informed by the perceptions that you choose to pay attention to, right? So, you know, you're on the starting blocks at the Olympic games and the stadium and people are screaming in their television cameras and there's an objective reality about what that is, but the sort of subjective meaning that you adhere to that is up to you. That's your choice, right? A hundred percent. But the level of groundedness that an athlete would have to have to tune all that out and dismiss it so that they can be fully present in that moment sounds like an astounding amount of work to have to master. That's the mastery. That's the work. have to master. That's the mastery.

That's the work. Right. Right. That's the work. And, you know, I've got so much I want to say about that, but that is the work, you know, and that comes from two places. One is the anchor is can you, you know, use this framework, this mental framework about how you want to live your life and get really clear with that. Right. So that becomes kind of the robustness of how you move through life. And I put an anchor in that or an asterisk in that idea framework for a minute.

And then can we use skills to be able to breathe when we're finding that our framework is not holding up to the storm of people watching or the intensity of a moment that we've contrived in our own mind. So there's skills and there's framework. And we need to be able to do both so that we can be grounded. And so follow this thought through a little bit with me is that if we can get out of our comfort zone more often, we have opportunities to see how well we're doing with being able to be grounded. And it's an emotional thing. It's emotions that make us uncomfortable. It's not necessarily physical. Everyone thinks it's physically uncomfortable. I don't know. Maybe I'm different. But for me, it's like fight or flight kicks on. There's a whole thing that happens inside of me. And it's an emotional response that happens.

But I think that if you acclimate yourself to always stepping out of your comfort zone, then being out of your comfort zones suddenly becomes the comfort zone, right? You become comfortable with the kind of emotions that are associated with stepping out and taking that risk. Yeah. And so follow that thread a little bit more, we become comfortable with new. And then the wisdom behind that is that everything is new. Everything is new, always is. And so if we can be comfortable with that, we can,

I'm going to say a dangerous word, we can let go. Right. How dare you? That's so terrifying, though. I mean, I think that when I look at any kind of, you know, anxiety that I'm harboring or resentments or any kind of, you know, negative emotions that I'm experiencing, I mean, I follow the thread. I try to trace it to its origin. It always comes back to fear. So, fear is really at the, is the foundation of it all. So when you're dealing

with an athlete who, you know, is experiencing stress or anxiety in a, in a high pressure situation, doesn't it always revolve around fear, fear, fear of I don't win or what's going to happen if I do win, or what are people going to think of me? All these emotions that are related to something that happened in the past or a potential situation that might arise in the future, neither of which are real. That's exactly right. You know, fear of letting someone down, fear of not being good enough, fear of your life efforts being a waste if you don't get an outcome. You know, all of that stuff is right there embedded for people that are, you know,

leaning into getting really good at something. And when you begin to unpack this stuff with an athlete and start to kind of, you know, blaze this path towards mastery, doesn't it require having to look at the root cause of these fears and start to, you know, deal with what is triggering them. Yeah, and it's not as scary as it sounds. Because isn't it true for you that you've got some stuff you're afraid of? Of course. And me too. I'm afraid of you right now. Yeah, here we go.

I'm afraid of where this conversation is going. It's about to happen. Temperature's going to heat up here in a minute for you. No, but so we've got these fears. And if we just can own them and honor them and put some language to it, then okay, that's what it is. All right, great. And then what are some skills I can use to manage that when it rears its head? And do I want to keep living aligned to those fears? Or flip, remember that fundamental decision I was talking about,

avoiding failure, right? That's a fear-based response versus no, no, no. I want to really get after it in life. I just want to get after it. I'm going to slide into home base a little dirty, a little bruised, but I'm going to know that when my head hits the pillow at night or I slide into home base of life, if you will, that I went for it. And what am I going to teach my kids? And what am I going to teach my loved ones about how I orientate myself in life? Right. And it's not about, quote unquote, like no fear. It's about. That does not exist. Yeah. It's not about removing fear from your life.

It's about your relationship to that fear and whether that fear acts as an impediment to your growth and your goals. Yes. And when we're fully connected to this moment, and we've got a stillness about it, and we're anchoring to the essence of this moment, fear is really not part of it. And people go, what do you mean? Like, sometimes I'm really scared. No, when we're really connected to this moment, everything is just... Everything's good. Everything is. Everything's fine. Yeah.

Everything is. Everything's fine. Yeah. It's the story around it that gets scary about what might happen next and how I might not be able to adjust what's going to happen next. That's what I was saying earlier. Another way of saying this is that can I trust that whatever is going to happen, I got it. I'll be able to figure it out. It might not be exactly the way I wanted it, but I'm going to learn. I'm going to keep learning because part of the values is growing and learning.

Right. When you kind of chase that emotion, say you're experiencing, you know, some kind of supercharged fear and go, all right, well, what's the worst thing that could happen? And you kind of like live in that terrible, you know, potentiality and then realize like, but I'd still be okay. I'm still going to be like, these are just emotions. They're telling us that they're life-threatening, but they're actually not. That's an illusion. Yeah. That's part of the way our DNA is designed us is that when we experience something that is a threat, we've got this full-on experience. The fight or flight or freeze mechanism, the sympathetic activation, if you will.

That doesn't mean that it's life-threatening. It just means we've interpreted something to be dangerous. And failures, if you think it's terrible, then it is. And every time you get close to that being a possibility, then your body will And every time you get close to that being a possibility, then your body will respond in a very predictable way. And it's really, it's nauseating, literally. Right. And it goes back to story. What is the story that you're telling yourself about yourself? Yeah, right. And to do that lonely work, I bet you've done it. But for your listeners to spend some time and to really think about what is the story and what is the future that they're creating that could be compelling and how they want to live, you know, moment to moment on the journey that they're on.

Just to do some of that lonely work and get it out of our heads and put it down on paper and say, okay, this is how I want to co-create. That's a purposeful word, co-create my life. And this is the story that I want to start living forward. It's really cool. It is cool. I think for a lot of people, just the idea that you actually can change your story, not just about where you're headed with your life, but even what happened in the past. Oh, yeah. You know, we're so wed to this idea, you know, we identify certain things that have happened to us in our past and we make these decisions that these are the important defining moments in our life.

But those are just decisions that your brain made. And then you have reinforced those over years and years and years. And for most people, these stories are not serving us, whether it's in our relationships with our parents or our spouse or our boss or whatever. that one event that happened to me and I'm going to look at this other thing that I never think about and decide that that's the defining moment in my life that could create a new story about who you are and how you react and what you're expected to do and all these things. It's so possible. I want to tell you a funny story. You sparked an idea for me. So, this is my first year in college and there was three professors that were best friends. And I love bringing up their names because they're so important to me.

Dr. Zenka, Dr. Perkins, and Dr. Cusio. And these three men, one was a philosopher, a psychologist, and a theologian. All right, this is like a story out of the Old Testament. Here it goes, right? Yeah. This is not a joke. And so, they wrapped their arms around me to invite me to try to attempt to understand the world of the invisible. And I've been fascinated with it ever since that invitation.

So, I never had the nerve to really talk to anybody when I was younger about things that were challenging to me. And so, I felt really kind of comfortable around the psychologist professor, Dr. Cusio. And so, one day I walked up to him and said, hey, can I talk to you about something that's bothering me? He goes, sure. And so, we started walking and he goes, what's up? And I said, now? And my voice is cracked, my hands are shaking, like I'm nervous to share something that has been really troubling me. And looking back, I had some anxiety I was working through. I was the first person to go to college in my family, and I was way over my head in a relationship, and surfing was falling apart.

And there was all this kind of crisis, if you will, for crisis. First world problems. These are all totally, I'm very clear with that. Upwardly mobile white guy problems. Yeah, like, I'm totally clear with this. But I didn't have the skills to manage it, so it felt like a crisis. And so, he says, sure, and we started walking. And I got into my story, and I was probably 90 seconds into my story. And seriously, my voice was shaking, my hands were rattling.

And he kind of stopped and he looked at me and he says, when someone knocks on your door, do you have to answer it? And I was like totally interrupted. It was like it felt rude. And he looked at me and he just walked away. And I said to myself, these psychologists are weird. Like, what is that? And I got angry. It totally shifted my physiology. And so, one week passed, and I come up to him again. I say, hey, can I talk to you again? I don't think I was able to say, I wonder if you can help me out with something. He says, sure, what's your story?

I'm sorry, he says, sure, what do you want to talk about? I said, now? He says, yeah. We started walking to class. And so, I begin 90 seconds into my story. It was the exact same story. 90 seconds in, and he stopped me. And he looked at me and he said, when someone calls your phone, this was before cell phones, when someone calls your phone, do you have to pick it up? And he looked at me and he walked away and he walked on. And it took me way too long.

You're getting a little wax on, wax off philosophy here. Yeah, and you're much smarter than I am. Like, I know you're going to get this thing. It took me way too long to figure it out. But he says, so what I came to figure out is that I don't have to entertain the story anymore. Like this is, the story was a knock on the door. It was a thought. Well, also it's an entity distinct from you, right? Totally. It's disassociated from who you are. It's a third party that's interrupting you. So, it creates that disassociation of consciousness with the thinking mind. Oh, that's heavy. That's right. Yeah, you're right on the money with it. It's so heavy. But the concreteness of like, when someone knocks on your door, do you have to answer it? And what he did in that moment, he totally shifted my physiology.

So, he interrupted the story, you know, physically and mentally and challenged me to say, basically, stop telling yourself the story. I don't even want to hear it. Stop telling me the story. It's the same thing. Like, is it working? You know, so, I don't know. I think it's really cool, this idea of storyline. So, how do you, so So how have you used that?

What are the tools then that you go to then change your story? How do you then implement that idea? So the first order of business is increasing the awareness of my inner dialogue, my inner experience. So that's where mindfulness training is, is part of it. So the first order of business is like, okay, um, can I increase my awareness of my dialogue? And when my dialogue is supporting the vision that I want for my life, then right on. Cool. You know, like you're reinforcing that. Yeah. Keep it rolling. That's cool. But when that inner voice is, is fear-based or it is critical or there's doubt or, excuse me, and it has some toxicity to it, like there's a high frequency of that, I'm getting better. I say this, I've been studying this a long time within myself. I work on being better at catching it sooner so that I can just gently say hello and goodbye to it. Like I don't have to water that seed anymore. I don't have to jump on that thought train anymore.

I don't have to entertain that knock, if you will. And I can just say hello and goodbye to it and move on to being here. And it's incredibly powerful when you can actually do that. Yeah. So this is the story around self-talk. Increase the awareness of our inner dialogue. And then we can actually train self-talk, right? You know, increase the awareness of our inner dialogue, and then we can actually train self-talk. We can train it through writing down the triggers that I know take place in my life that activate a certain type of thinking, and I can actually replace those

thoughts, like program and train them. That's one pathway. And the other pathway is just increase great sensitivity and awareness of the dialogue and be able to just effortlessly let go. Right. And what are the kind of daily practices that you are a fan of? Yeah, I get that question all the time. Like, how do you do this? So, there's something, you know, it's called mindset. And so, really that idea is that we set our mind and we're not victims, right? And we're not, there's not this kind of external world that forces us to think a certain way. So we set our mind. So I begin my day with a primer. So every day I start in a way that optimizes me being primed for a great mindset throughout the

day. And at my center, I'm a spiritual man. If people say, you know, that question we talk about, what do you do? Like, I'm just a spiritual dude trying to figure things out. How's that go over at the cocktail party? They go, wah, wah. And so, this is how I prime my days, is that I take one breath. So, the sheets are still on at this point. I'm still in bed. And I take one breath, and that is just to get centered. That's it. But I'm fully committing to that breath now. So that's it. And this isn't in a day in an era where I know what most people are

doing. They're jumping out of bed to their alarm. They're ripping open their emails. They're checking their Instagram. They're seeing what Twitter activity is going on. And that's just getting into the business of everyone else's story. So I just take a moment for myself and I take one breath. And what does that take? About 12 seconds. It's one breath. And then I have one thought of gratitude.

So I'm priming, actually, the science of this is really cool. I'm priming particular parts of my brain to wake up. And so I have one thought of gratitude. And in that one thought of gratitude, I completely experience it. And if I want to have another one, that's cool. But I make a commitment to completely experience that thought. And then I have one thought, I'm sorry, one intention for the day that I set. So I've got one breath, one thought, I'm sorry, one breath, one gratitude thought, one intention. And then I completely feel that. And then I get my feet on the ground and I just feel my feet and

I get grounded. And that's a exercise I do. What does that take? Like, I don't know, 90 seconds. Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's cool. It's a great little primer. Right, right. So it doesn't involve getting up and getting in the lotus position. No, no, no. Yeah, not for me. Right, right. And then after that, I purposely generate the energy that I enjoy in life.

So I'll rip on some music or have, you know, just a charged conversation with my family members and just kind of bring and generate, you know, that energy that I want to cultivate for in my life. And, you know, we're talking right now. I'm not a guy that's pumped on adrenaline. Like, there's an appreciation for me of stillness and presence, but there's a vibe that I want out of this. And so, I just kind of purposely do that in the next phase. And, you know, I'm on to eating breakfast and, you know, everything else. So, that's just kind of a primer that I do. Right.

It's a mindful, very conscious effort to create a mindset and a trajectory for your day. Exactly. That takes up no time. No time. Right. And then over time that becomes so- And it's not painful. No, no. We can all afford 90 seconds.

I know it. No matter how busy you are. I like that. I like that technique. Yeah, it's not painful. No, no. We can all afford 90 seconds. I know it. No matter how busy you are. I like that. I like that technique. Yeah, it's a primer. Interesting. So, you don't do like a formal meditation practice? Yeah, I have.

You do. I've spent a lot of time in that space. And so, I'm not a good example of it because I spend time with people that I work with. And so I'm actually doing it with people. And so there's some days that I'm able to do it often with people. And so my answer to that is the value of quieting down and becoming clear and connected is tremendous. And so I get to experience it often throughout the day. And the value of doing it and just setting aside some time to activate your parasympathetic.

That's one way if you're kind of a science-minded person. Activate your parasympathetic. If you're getting after it in life and you want to switch on that parasympathetic system to recover, it's a great way to do it now. If you're spiritual, that there's a way that you say, okay, I'm just going to connect to the essence of what it is. And if you're practicing this, you know, more from a mental kind of skill level, you know, it's great to just be observed without connecting to your thoughts. There's so many different reasons why it's amazing. Well, the benefits of it are amazing. I had a meditation expert on the podcast a while back, this guy, Charlie Knowles, who's fantastic. And he was talking

about just the inherent power of not being reactive. Like imagine yourself in a stressful athletic context or a work environment context where somebody is being aggressive towards you. And in general, without putting that time in and that training in, you're just going to react. You're going to have your default reaction. And generally, that's not serving you or getting you the outcome that you desire. But what if you're able to just observe it dispassionately and consciously evaluate what the best course of action is in that microsecond. Yeah. And that's a really great conversation because in fast-paced sports, let's say hockey or football, read and react. That's really important. So, you want to program

ourselves in fast-paced environments to not have to think, but to be so present that we can read and react and move on to the next moment, if you will, like that quickly. As opposed to this image of, you know, lotus pose on the mountaintop. You know, that's not great for high-stakes environments, you know, or sport environments. So there's a balance between these two to pay attention to. And what I've come to learn is that we need to train our physiology and our technique to be able to access it quickly in live environments. And the other side of it is training our minds to be fully still and present in the present moment is how we can do it better. So it's the yin and yang. It's the both of these. Yeah. And looking back over your life, I mean,

I know that kind of this episode that you had as a young surfer really has informed this entire career trajectory. I mean, looking back, it's like if you were writing a Lifetime movie, it all falls into place perfectly. Because surfing is the ultimate kind of soulful, mindful endeavor, but it's also a sport. And so there's this, to use what you just said, a yin and a yang of competition versus kind of just the natural kind of presence and what it's like to the experience of riding waves and how those two worlds kind of collide with each other and on some level are incompatible. those two worlds kind of collide with each other and on some level are incompatible. And that kind of reality that you were in, like trying to merge these two worlds and make sense of them. Yeah.

Like take me back to that experience a little bit. I didn't have skills. I didn't have the mental skills to be able to figure it out. And the volume in my head about what other people were thinking about me possibly was so loud that I couldn't attune to the environment, myself, and I couldn't tune to the environment. In a surfing competition. Yeah, that's it. Right. And it's complicated because the ethos of surfing really isn't a competitive endeavor. Like it's not cool to be, you know,

I mean, I don't know what it was like for you, but for a lot of people, it's like, oh, it's, it's not cool to be competitive in surfing. It's cool to be the sole surfer and then to be the competitive surfer and trying to excel when you're combating that idea of what you're supposed to do and not do to fit in. Yeah. There's definitely a, um,'s definitely two different sides of the surf world. There's both of those. So, the culture that I grew up in was pretty hostile towards the competitive side of it. And I don't want people to think that I was this young ripper that was the best in the world. I was just trying to figure me out in a sport that I really enjoyed doing. And so, yeah, that was it. I just didn't have a framework and I didn't have the skills to manage it.

And I think what I've come to learn is that many people that I have the opportunity to work with, you know, the volume for what other people might be thinking of them is actually pretty high. And so if we can turn down that volume, we can actually listen. Wait, say that again. The volume of... So we got this knob, like a visual thinker. There's this knob that what everybody else is thinking about me, if that volume is really high, and I'm thinking about what they might be

thinking about me, that creates such noise that I can't connect. I can't connect to me, first of all. I can't hear me. And then I can't connect. I can't connect to me, first of all. I can't hear me. And then I can't connect to the information from my environment. Right, right. Yeah. There's also a little bit of narcissism in that because most people are not thinking about you. They're thinking about themselves because they're narcissists too. Totally.

So, it's actually not even really happening. Yeah. You know, we attach all this importance to what everyone's thinking, but they're caught up in their own shit. If I just would have known that when I was 15. Yeah. I'm still trying to figure that out. Yeah. Right.

But that was where, you know, this seed was kind of born of like, how do I, you know, how do I get more present with what I'm doing so that I can be, so that I can excel competitively better than I am, right? Yeah. And that was the, so the challenge was to be able to do what I do when people were watching. And now looking back, that's the exact kind of trajectory that I've taken in my life is I needed to figure that out. And here I am in a career path that is wonderfully colorful. I mean, I love waking up in the morning and exploring what's yet to come.

And to think that that, looking back, that that was the epicenter, and epicenter, I guess, is a way to say it, that put me on this trajectory to do the same for other folks. It's cool. It is really cool. I mean, let's talk a little bit about the Seahawks and Pete Carroll and how that all kind of came into your life. I mean, you know, the kind of nifty-tidy narrative is, you know, you're the mindfulness guy and suddenly everybody in the Seahawks is meditating. I know the real story is quite different from that, but I'm fascinated by Pete Carroll and what he's built and how you've been able to contribute to that success. It's an amazing story. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. It's been a joy to know Pete and to know Coach Carroll and understand how he works and to see him develop a culture that is striving. He's striving for collectively people to be at their best. And that's really at the center of what he's designed. It's a culture that's built on the foundation with a very clear purpose for people to be their best. And that narrative that you laid out that everyone's meditating, that's not it. Right. I mean, you know.

There was that, I think it was that one ESPN piece where there was one player was in the lotus position or something like that. So, I guess probably everybody saw that. Yeah. He was on the cover. Oh, he was on there. Yes. Yeah. So, but it's, I think, I think a really important thing to say is that before I met Pete, Coach Carroll is that he had a very rooted already in solid sports psychology principles. And so it was like, that's why when we first met over dinner, the two of our heads were kind of nodding. At least mine was nodding like, this feels like it's on point, like it's really working.

So day one for me, it felt like one plus one is no longer equal to, it felt like there was this momentum that I was able to capture that he had built for many years on how to develop a culture of high performance. And the idea of kind of celebrating and emphasizing the uniqueness of the individual player seems to, I mean, you know, I don't, I'm not immersed in the NFL, but I would imagine that's sort of at odds with the typical team environment where it's all about team and fall into line. And, you know, the idea of working together as a team means kind of a shirking of that individuality. Yeah. I think this idea of

celebrating the best of who people are, isn't that a great relationship to be in? You know, I want to be in those relationships. Right. It's like a great entrepreneur. Yeah, exactly. Who's running a great company where all the employees feel completely empowered and they want to be there. Yeah. And they're valued. And that's not to say that there's, you know, that there's not ever tension in an environment. Like, this is hundreds of highly testosterone-built and expressive men.

And that's not to mean that there's not tension, but the principles in place are really thoughtful and very clear. And the ones that he's created are evidence, actually, in good science of psychology. So what I'm doing is bringing some continued science to the environment, supporting the culture, and then bringing techniques that people can use to train their minds. And so you do that one-on-one with the players, and then you do it in an organizational context? Yeah, so I spend most, I think I spend a healthy amount of time with the coaches.

And if you think about the lever, if you will, of impact and influence is that I could spend time one-on-one with an athlete, which I do, and we get into a great connection and there's some skills and there's some understandings and there's some trainings that we're doing for his mindset and the whole thing. And then a coach can so easily undo it. And so what I've found is so much better to understand the coach's language, to understand how they see the world, what is their philosophy, what are they trying to solve for the athlete to work inside of that framework. And then they ask the same for me, like, okay, well, what do you value? What is your philosophy? What are you trying to, you know, help in this

equation that we're trying to solve. And then we both align together. Now, bang, now we've got this really great momentum to create. So it's not as kind of clean as I work in groups and individuals. It's part of the DNA, which is, I think, what makes it so potent. Right, from the top down. Yeah, it's, you know, the value of being your best and the science of how to cultivate that and the conversations about how to think well. It's just part of the DNA of the culture. demand in the business context where CEOs would want you to come in and give them and their company the Pete Carroll treatment or the Michael Gervais treatment to try to create that kind of

DNA in the corporate environment. So not that you knew that, I don't think you knew this, but Coach Carroll and I created a joint venture together. Oh, you did? Yeah. So he's really switched on about how to create a high-performing culture. And I've been in the trenches for years helping people, individuals switch on. And so when you put the two of those together, high-performing culture with high-performing individuals, doesn't that sound like a nice thing for a company that is trying to maybe change the world. And so we just launched last year, fortunate enough to have three clients with a total of, I just did this math, like 220,000 employees. Wow. Are you allowed to say who they are? Yeah, for sure. Who are you working with?

Yeah. So Boeing, Microsoft, and Zynga. Wow. Those are good clients to have. Oh, it's awesome. Yeah, that's cool. Well, earlier you said you wanted to stick a pin in motivation, and I think it's a good point to kind of delve into that a little bit further, particularly in the context of talking about coaching and motivating athletes. In my personal experience, I've had coaches that have tried to motivate me and my teammates through positive reinforcement, and I've had other coaches who rely on negative reinforcement and sort of more of a tearing down technique, both well-intentioned, both getting very different results. And I'm interested in your perspective on how – what the best strategies are to motivate athletes to peak performance.

Yeah, cool. Because this word motivation, why I said put a pin in it, because earlier in our conversations, because almost all the athletes I work with are highly motivated. They're already motivated. Yeah. So they've already got a life about them and a spark where they're trying to create or solve something or understand their capacity and potential. And so, it's going to sound weird.

I don't understand motivation. Right. Well, motivation is sort of like willingness. Like you either you have it or you don't and it's a self-generated thing. Yeah. Yeah. So, I'm not in the business of motivation. Hands down, flat out, that's not it. But what are the techniques that successful

coaches rely on to get results out of their athletes? So shaping behavior, like maybe let's just talk about that for a minute, is that if you haven't, this is how I think it works best. And this is anchoring the science, but putting into a way that's not clunky, if you will. Is that if you have clarity about what behaviors or thinking that you want to hear or see from a person, and you guys can agree together what those are. And that's important. What do you want to see happen? And can you agree with that person what that will look like and get really clear about it? And then every time you see it or see getting closer to it, you reward it. And you reinforce it. And you call it out. And you celebrate it. That's

what I understand to be using good science and maintaining dignity between the relationship. And the lonely work and the hard work is to have a clarity about what the behaviors are that you're wanting to work toward and then being very mindful of spotting them. So that's it. So it's definitely that's how I see it shifting. But what are the drivers behind that behavioral change?

Why do they want to do something different? Yeah, we're back to pain. We're back to pain. Yeah. I mean, you know, I talk a lot about accountability, right? If you're accountable to your teammates or you're just a weekend warrior, you're accountable to your buddy that you told you was going to meet you at the gym or, you know, whatever it is. And that accountability can come in a positive form and a negative form. Like you're accountable to this person, you enjoy

doing it with somebody else and you have this social aspect to what you're doing, but you're going to get shit if you don't show up too. So there's a negative aspect to that as well. I love it. And both of these drive behavior. I think some of the best coaches are really amazing at holding people to a high level of accountability. And they create that social bond and fabric that allow that to take place. So I'm not sure exactly where this conversation goes from this point, but I am nodding my head saying accountability is a powerful connector

to stay consistent with behavior. I think where I've seen coaching to be really effective is where the coach can set the tone and the tenor, but then the team captain and the teammates shoulder that mantle. And then it becomes, they own it. They own it for themselves. And then it's about the union of this group of individuals who are collectively working towards a goal. They're not doing it because the coach says X, Y, or Z. It becomes a group sort of self-generated desire and motivation where then everything kind of clicks into place. Yeah, when people own their stuff, it's so much more powerful than when they feel forced or convinced or manipulated or some sort of strategy used on them to get more out of them. So 100%. And that's the

art of coaching we're talking about. The science of behavioral change was what I was trying to articulate earlier. That's pretty well understood. But the art of it is how do you breathe life into an organization and to give clarity and show the pathway for it? And the skill part of it for me is being able to be very clear about what behaviors we want to see and holding, it's so easy to see the mistake. It's so easy to see when it's not right, but holding that line to observing and recognizing when it is right or getting closer. to observing and recognizing when it is right or getting closer.

I mean, what do you think the common mistakes are that most coaches make? Frustration. Like an athlete walking. This is the one that is painful for me. When an athlete walks away not feeling as though he matters. And it's because the coach wants so much for the athlete, and the coach is frustrated because he's run out of tools and skills and can't get the athlete to do what he wants to do, and then there's shame and embarrassment,

or there's some sort of emotional attachment to not feeling good enough or mattering enough because the performance wasn't up to standard. And that's one of the things that Coach Carroll's created a culture of back of the Seahawks is that that's not a strategy that's used or, you know, professional athletes in America, we project this kind of idealized life, you know, that we imagine that these athletes are living. And everything must be, you know, everything in their life must be great and everything is set up for them to succeed. But I think, you know, probably the reality is quite different. you know, probably the reality is quite different. You know, just because somebody's a high paid athlete doesn't mean that, you know, they're getting along with their spouse or that they don't have, you know, their own kind of, you know, financial or professional issues or, you know, just the pure kind of, I think, loneliness that probably exists within the NFL,

particularly with, you know, the rookie players who are used to a college environment and suddenly it becomes very different and more cutthroat. Yeah. So everybody's got their own framework about how they understand themselves and how the world works. And it's, it's as varied as, as every man is on the team. Like, you know, it's a, it's not like a one, one come all experience once you entered the NFL and yeah, you know, there's not like a one-come-all experience once you enter the NFL. And, yeah, you know, there's real challenges. I mean, I invite people to watch a game, a football game, or any game, action sports, if you will. And we see gladiators. We see, you know, let me say this differently. We see a resemblance of gladiators because they've got this garb on, this protective gear.

But if you can look for the flesh underneath when the shirt comes up, and you remember that underneath this uniform that there's a real person in there, and they've got hopes and desires, and they've got feelings and thoughts, and they've got family, and they've got feelings and thoughts and they've got family and they've got aspirations in their life and they're trying to do well and they're putting it on the line. That part of it is, I think, really important to remember when we're watching and celebrating amazing feats of excellence. Interesting.

So, where do the adventure sport athletes start coming in? The Red Bull athletes and the Felix's and all these crazy, insane, amazing athletes that you had the good fortune to work with? hockey and then there were some traditional sports that I was paying attention to and working with athletes. And then it moved into some Olympic activities with Olympians. And then one of the sports psychologists for the USOC, the United States Olympic Committee, introduced me to Dr. Andy Walsh at Red Bull, who was building a high performance center, just getting the thing started ground level. And the two of us connected. So Dr. Walsh and myself connected. And I grew up in surfing, which is now considered an action sport. There wasn't such a label back then. And so did he. And so his doctorate degree is in

biomechanics and motor learning. And then so obviously mine's in psychology. So we just had this natural appreciation for the science of excellence or sport performance. And he was just rounding out a team and putting it together. And I was fortunate enough to be part of something that was incredibly meaningful as a partnership with him. We're now writing a book together. Oh, he's your co-author on the book, right? So, you've had the opportunity to work with a whole variety of the Red Bull North America athletes. Yeah, that's exactly right.

And so, it's a slice in there of many different types. And they've got some threads in common. And that's kind of what we're going to celebrate in the book. Right, right, right. And more importantly, like, what can we all learn from that? People that go for it. Like, the most obvious is, seriously, if we get quiet with ourselves, are we going for it in our own life? And did we go for it today? Like, did we? It can't be that easy, though.

It's totally that easy. It's a one-page book. No, no, it's not a one-page book. Yeah, we got to tell some good stories. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There is a decision to make. We have to make a decision in our life. And there's lots of decisions to make, but a fundamental decision is, are we oriented to go for it in life?

Because we only have a certain amount of days and a certain amount of minutes that we get to live. And how do we want to live them? Like we've got to wrestle with that. Otherwise, we're going to be just pulled around by all the distractions and nuances and expectations of how we're supposed to live. Some people aren't wired to go for it though, or do you believe everybody is? No, I think you're right. I think that we are wired with a particular brain chemistry. And we come into the world with a unique DNA. And I don't care. I don't care. You know, so some people maybe have a fear.

They're more sensitive to fear. I don't care. I might be more sensitive to distractions. Whatever. Wherever we are today, we can still make the fundamental decisions. And this isn't me saying you should live it this way. This is like, how do you want to do you? Yeah, the definition of going for it is a sliding scale.

Exactly. It doesn't mean quit your job tomorrow or jump off a building. No, no, no, no. Yeah. And if you're, you know, if you've got a job that you're like, you're set, this is what you're doing. Like you've already kind of, you're going down this path. You can be the absolute most, live a most meaningful life in any job. You can live the most joy and celebration and excitement in any job. The environment does matter, but you create your experience in the environment. So, it's nice when you can align your environment and the people you're around and the craft that you're creating. But, you know, factory worker in Detroit, whatever it might be, like you can still find meaning in whatever you're doing. Right, right, right.

I mean, not everybody has the innate potential to be a LeBron James or some, you know, incredible gift, but I think everybody has a more actualized version of themselves that could be better expressed in their life. And everybody has certain unique gifts that they have to offer. Some are subtle and some are extraordinary, but we all have something that makes us unique that we can contribute that gives our lives personal meaning. That's right. Right. So, the journey is about how to better live true to that. Amen to that.

So, going for it is your version of what that means. Amen to that. That's exactly what it means for me. Yeah. This would be a good place to end it, but I can't let you off the hook without hearing the Felix story. It's well-documented. It's easy to find on Google, but I got to hear it from you firsthand because it's so amazing. Oh, yeah. what a, just a gift for me to be part of that journey with a group of people that were top of the game. You know, there's some real amazing people in the aerospace industry that were part of this, very creative minds, very skilled people that were part of that team.

And for people that are listening that are listening that are unclear, we're talking about Felix Baumgartner and the Stratos mission where he jumped from this capsule that was, how high up was it? Really high. He was basically in space. In stratosphere. Yeah. And so this was the Red Bull Stratos project. Everybody saw it. There's no one listening who didn't watch that incredible video. Yeah, it was an amazing journey. And, you know, I think the most important takeaways maybe for this conversation is that what a joy it is to be part of a group that is highly inspired and switched on and trying to do something that is a game changer. Like they can actually shift the needle. And it was an and it was honored to an honor to be part of that and the essence of the story is that and this is all again well

documented is that um i think it was about halfway through the project felix put up his hand and said hey um i need some help and i'm i'm really unsettled in this environment this this um suit that i have to be in for five and a half, six and a half hours. And I just can't spend any time in it without feeling claustrophobic. It's a full-on space suit. That's what it is. Yeah. How much did it weigh?

Oh, I don't know. I don't know the exact amount. You got in it, though. I did. You lived in it. You went and had your own experience with it, right? Oh, you did your homework. Yeah.

Yeah, good for you yeah yeah yeah that was part of the um uh it was part of the the science team saying no i think it'd be good for you to feel what it feels like and and to hear the sounds that are in it and when it's actually um um inflated i think there's a better word for it more technical word but when there's compression in the suit how challenging it is to actually move. And so they walked me through that experience to have a deeper understanding of what Felix was, some of what Felix was telling me. He was essentially having panic attacks. He was having severe claustrophobia. Right.

And what does that mean? Like that his mind was not settled in the present moment and highly anxious. His mind was not settled in the present moment and highly anxious. And this is somebody who has an acute ability to center his mind because, you know, it's not like Stratos was his first, you know, spin around the merry-go-round. He's been doing amazing things for a long time. Right. He was a very accomplished base jumper. And so he's jumped into the deepest caves and the lowest buildings and the highest buildings. And, you know, he jumped off the arms of Jesus down in Brazil and in Rio.

So, yeah, he's very highly skilled at what he does. And, you know, he put his hand up and said, I just, I don't have the skills I need to be able to manage my mind in this environment. And what an amazing thing to do. I'm scared. It takes a lot of courage to do that. I mean, I think that the easy way out would have been to, you know, spin some yarn about some other reason why he couldn't do it or point his finger at somebody else and saying, you're not doing your job or create some kind of an excuse to mask the fear. But to be able to raise your hand and say that, that takes balls.

Oh, yeah. That's, well, he's certainly got some. Yeah, he's got it. So, yeah, but that kind of balls, those are different kind of balls, you know. Yeah. Emotional balls or the balls to be emotionally vulnerable are, I would think, often at odds with the kind of balls that allow people to, you know, combat fear and do extraordinary things. Yeah, I think that they're actually closer. That's a closer line than we think.

But much of it is often embraced in the bravado of being, you know, tough or macho or, you know. Which is just a mask. Oh, yeah. And it masks fear and all these other kind of things that, you know, basically vulnerability is a threat to. Right. Pretty much. Yeah.

Yeah. So, you know, he did it and he lived it and he put his hand up and he said, you know, let's get some work on this. And that's it. I mean, so I just applied. So you get the call, the Red Bull phone rings in your office. Yeah, this is. Send the jet.

Dr. Walsh, Andy Walsh called and said, I think I got a project for you. And so, yeah, what a real challenge both for me and for him and for the team to go through this part of their phase. And, you know, he did it. He faced his fear head on. He put in the work to be completely vulnerable and to develop skills from that point. And we just did good science. We applied good science in an environment with a person that was willing and a highly engaged team of very smart individuals. But piecing together what was going left on him and correcting that course, I mean, how did you identify what the trigger was and then correct that? I just asked the question, you know, what's going on for you? It was easy as that. Come on. It's that simple.

It's the special sauce here. Yeah. No, the special sauce is good science. And so you build a rapport, connect, understand, and then apply an intervention that has been well tested. Because this is a very high stakes environment. So, you know, winging some creative process to see if it works with somebody that's going to risk their life, that's not... No, you can't do that. No, no, no. So, we applied very well-tested protocols for this flooding, it's called, is the approach, or otherwise known as systematic desensitization.

And really the objective was to extinguish the fear, not just manage it, but to extinguish it. And he did the work. And, you know, he put it in. And the team said, Mike, you know, like success before we launch is that he needs to be in his suit for an extended period of time and be 100% capacity before we move forward and um you know a very short time later he was he cracked it how long i mean how long was the whole process from crisis to resolution yeah i don't know when the crisis

initially began but or from when you got involved, I was fortunate enough to stay connected to it intimately at some points and from a distance from other points through its inception. So, it was a continued four years. But the work we did was brief and intense and short. And it was the order of a couple days. And were you on site when he made the jump? In mission control. It was awesome. Wow.

Yeah, that was great. That had to be unbelievable. And just walk me through what it felt like to put the suit on and kind of be, you were in the capsule, right? And kind of stood on the ledge. I mean, obviously trying to imagine what it would be, what it would feel like to be that high up. It's exactly what you would imagine. It's, how you would imagine. It's a very contained environment that has a particular weight and feel and sound inside of it. So it's like there's an echo chamber inside of it.

And then you actually need to breathe in the right mixture of oxygen to be able to live inside of it because there's a unit that is pumping in that oxygen. And so there's a weight, there's a sound, there's a reliance on the external world for survival. And then going through the protocols, being able to feel what it feels like to have this suit actually pressurized, that was the word I was looking for earlier. It feels like you're inside, it's's like i don't know what it's like 2.2 pounds of pressure per you know it's it's like i broke an instant sweat trying to trying to move myself in the suit right

it's it was it's very challenging he made it look super simple and these guys in spacesuits make it look simple and it is um it requires a lot of work to move that suit. Interesting. Yeah. And, I mean, how long was he in it? I think the actual event, he was in it for, I don't know, but five, six hours. Like, there's a pre-breathing process. There's a sitting around.

There's, you know, the number I keep remembering was five or six hours. Right. I'm sure it was that. So now when you watch movies with guys in spacesuits, you're like, ah, that's not what it's like. Yeah, it's hard. Yeah. Cool. Well, you know, let's wrap it up, but I want to kind of end it on, you know, something that maybe you could, you know could give away to the listeners. You gave those great tips of how to start your day. But if there's any other thing that they could kind of incorporate into their day to lean into this idea of mindfulness and presence, whether that contributes to them as an athlete or just as a human being. Sure.

Yeah, what a great kind of way to wrap this. Investing in breathing training is a worthwhile cause. And so it does a couple of things. If you invest in this even kind of mechanical breathing work, it's the tip of the arrow in some respects. It's the entire thing, if you follow Zen tradition, of mindfulness training. And so my thought is just to begin, and how do you begin? Figure out what a deep breath looks like for you, and usually it starts down in the deep abdominal, in through the nose, let your stomach pop out, fill up your chest as

the second kind of component to it, feel some tension in the top of your chest, and then just let it all go and enjoy the exhale. And each breath, I don't know, it's about 10 seconds, 12 seconds, somewhere in that neighborhood. But if someone wanted to just begin this process, what I would suggest is pick a number. And what I do with athletes is 12. And so we begin with 12 breaths. And just commit to doing 12 breaths in a row every day. And commit to each breath as if your mother's or loved one's life depended on you being fully committed to that breath. And so that's a great way to begin the process of what some people are going to call mindfulness training or meditation. But for the uninitiated, when you say, you know, commit to the breath, like what does that actually mean? It just means like let your mind be connected to that as opposed to your laundry or if you're questioning if you're doing it right or, you know, the work that you've got to get to or whatever.

So you're just committing to that breath. What does that mean? So you're just committing to that breath. What does that mean? For me, sometimes I'm just feeling the way it feels for my stomach to move or my chest to move or the way the sensations feel as the air leaves my nostrils. Like, that's it. And so it's kind of that simple. You can do it anytime, anywhere.

Right. Right? Yeah, that's exactly it. And I've found that people are using their car as a great way to kind of find time that's naturally somewhat quiet. And so, mindfulness training in the car is not while they're driving. Like, get there a few minutes before or after a meeting or whatever and just drop in and do the work there. I love it. Yeah, cool. Cool, man. Thank you for being interested in having this.

Are you kidding, man? This is fascinating. I could go all day with you, you know? It was really cool, man. I really appreciate it. And you didn't break a sweat. No, I didn't. No, we didn't. I might be sweating my armpits.

No, we didn't turn the light on you. We'll have to do that some other time. Next time, man. Well, I know you have a book coming out. We're not quite sure exactly when, right? You don't, you don't have a title yet? Yeah, I've got a title, but I'm, it's under contract. So I can't release it yet.

It's all shrouded in secrecy. I know. But hopefully you'll come back and tell us about it when the book is coming out. I would love to do that. Right? Yeah. Thank you. Cool.

You feel good? We do it? We did it. Yeah. What do I owe you for the session? No, I don't think we did one. Oh, we didn't? We just had a good conversation.

I have to come back. Yeah. We'll do another one. All right. Cool, man. Thank you so much. If you're digging on Michael and you want to connect with him, the best way to do that is your website, michaelgervais.com.

Yeah. And I think that I'm finding a great engagement on social. Twitter, Michael Gervais. That's it. Yeah. G-E-R-V that I'm finding a great engagement on social. Twitter, Michael Gervais. That's it, yeah. G-E-R-V-A-I-S. Well done. The S is silent. Yes, yes.

How's that work? I don't know. That's just the way my parents said it. No, it's the French roots. Yeah. And are you on Facebook and the other places too, or is Twitter the main deal? Yeah, Twitter and Instagram, those two. Cool. Yeah. My name.

Right on, man. Cool. Thank you very much. Thanks again. Yeah, Twitter and Instagram, those two. Cool. Yeah, my name. Right on, man. Cool, thank you very much. Thanks again. Yeah, cool. Peace, plants. Okay, you guys, that's it. We did it. It's over.

I hope you enjoyed Dr. Gervais. Personally, I find him and his specialty fascinating. I could have talked to him all day. And a real quick note, we did not get into one super fascinating aspect of his practice, which is the state-of-the-art brain mapping that he does and the results of which he says help him assess and quantify mental aspects of performance like focus and decision speed and reaction time and stress regulation. I'm hoping that maybe I can go back and interview him later about this. What's

super cool is that he kind of offhandedly offered to let me come in and he was going to brain map me. So if he met what he says and he'll let me go back in, I'd love to do that. And maybe I could report back to you guys on the podcast, have him back on again, and we could talk about this in more depth. Plus he's got a book coming out at some point. I don't know exactly when, but that's another reason to have him on again. If you guys are interested in hearing more from him, I know that I am. The other day, we did our first Q&A, Ask Me Anything episode. What did you guys think? You want me to do it again? Did you like it? I thought it went pretty well. If we're going to continue to do it and you want to have your question answered, send me your question to findingultra at gmail.com or you can tweet or Facebook them and tag

it. Hashtag ask RRP. I've got a script running that's going to capture all the tweets with that hashtag so I can keep track of it. capture all the tweets with that hashtag so I can keep track of it. If you are joining me on this 30-day iPhone detox, this experimentation in increased mindfulness and presence, please keep me and everyone posted on how it's going by tagging your social media shares during designated hours, of course, with the hashtag iDetox. It's going pretty well for me. I'm kind of on the other side of the painful part of it.

And I've noticed a significant enhancement in my interactions with other human beings. That's the biggest impact. I'm not out of the woods yet, but so far, so good. And I'll report back maybe in the next Q&A episode about how it's all panning out for me. Okay. Again, it's the holiday season.

It's the last minute. What are you going to get for people, for yourself? Well, rather than buy a bunch of trashy nonsense that you're going to throw out right away, why don't you buy something that can actually improve your life or give it as a gift to somebody to enhance their life experience? Towards that end, I've got a couple online courses you might be interested in checking out. Specific to today's conversation with Dr. Gervais, you might want to look at The Art of Living with Purpose. It's on mindbodygreen.com.

It's all about increasing mindfulness, increasing that connection with yourself, developing self-understanding and self-knowledge so that you can then set the right goal for yourself and set about creating an infrastructure and a map towards achieving that goal. It's a couple hours of streaming video content. It's got an online community, downloadable tools, blah, blah, blah. It's good stuff.

It's at mindbodygreen.com along with my other course, The Ultimate Guide to Plant-Based Nutrition, similar kind of thing. Just go to mindbodygreen.com, click on video courses on the menu at the top of the homepage, and you can find out more about that. Go to richroll.com for all your plant power necessities. We've got a whole bunch of new cool t-shirt designs. We've got nutritional products. We've got our meditation program, our digital e-cookbook. You guys know about that stuff. So go there to check that stuff out. And what is left? Give us a review on iTunes. If you want to access the earlier episodes of the show, as you know, iTunes only lists the most

recent 50. They're all available if you get my free app, free iOS app in the iTunes app store. Just type in Rich Roll in the search window in the iTunes app store. It'll pop right up. It's totally free. Easily access every single episode of the podcast for free. It's got all the show notes and the blog posts and the pictures of the guests and all that good stuff. Uh, thanks so much. You guys continue to support the show by telling your friends using the Amazon banner ad, all that good stuff. Keep Instagramming how you enjoy the show. I love it. And happy holidays to all of you guys. I hope you guys are having a wonderful, fantastic, enjoyable, beautiful, heartwarming, and lovely holiday season. And I'll catch you guys next week. Peace.

Plants.