The Rich Roll Podcast - Hillary Biscay: 60 Ironmans & Counting

Episode Date: June 25, 2013

I'm so excited to share with you today's guest — my favorite female pro triathlete Hillary Biscay. Why is she my favorite? Oh, let me count the ways….First we have similar backgrounds as collegiate swimmers (although I promised not to hold her USC affiliation against her). And not only is she on the PlantPower bandwagon (all the cool kids are doing it these days…), she is also the first guest I've had on the show who has also competed at Ultraman – it was great to hear her perspective on this race as a veteran pro. So much to talk about, fresh off her 60th Ironman – yes you heard me right, 60 Ironmans! — which was also one of her fastest. Finally, anyone who lists “running ultras” as her “hobby” away from triathlon is definitely on my wavelength. We get into all of it – what keeps her motivated; how her training has evolved from her days with legendary coach Brett Sutton to her current relationship with coach Siri Lindley; how she fuels her training and racing on plants (including missteps along the way); and of course her personal experience racing Ultraman, and what that was like as an ironman professional. Finally, we get to hear all about her new line of triathlon & active apparel – Smash. You know I love good design, and this stuff is excellent. I just wish she would hurry up and start making stuff for guys. Hillary is a delight, and she brings her vivaciousness to this interview in spades.  Enjoy! Rich

Welcome to episode 37 of the Rich Roll Podcast with professional Ironman triathlete Hilary Biscay. The Rich Roll Podcast. Check chat 1-2-1-2-1-2-3. Hello, this is Rich Roll. This is the Rich Roll Podcast. Welcome to the show. Welcome back if you've been listening. Thanks for all the support. Thanks for all your great comments on the iTunes page. We're back at you today with another great show.

But before I get into a little bit about what I have in store for you today, who am I? I am an author, author of the book Finding Ultra, now available in paperback. I am an ultra endurance triathlete. I like to do races that are really long. I am a plant-based nutrition advocate. I'm all about living the plant-based lifestyle and helping people incorporate more plants into their diet for sustainable, positive lifestyle change. I am a, well, I guess I'm a lifestyle entrepreneur, whatever that means. I'm a family guy. I'm married. I've got four kids and I'm coming at you now as a podcast host. My goal with this show is to bring you the best and the brightest minds in health, wellness, fitness, nutrition, and athleticism. All people with one common goal

in their message, which is how to live well, how to maximize the most out of this short life on this planet. So I've had nutritionists, I've had doctors, I've had world-class athletes, all different types of athletes, and I've even had entrepreneurs, usually paradigm-busting personalities, the best and brightest minds here to help inform you and me. I learn as much from these people as you do, and I've been lucky enough to sit in this chair and spend time with these people, a lot of which are individuals that I've met along this path over the last several years since I started this plant-based journey or this return to health and fitness and wellness. And it's my great pleasure and honor to introduce them to you. But an important thing to remember is it's not about a guru. It's not about

holding these people up on a pedestal or idolizing anybody. This is about you. It's all about self-empowerment. Everything that I'm trying to do here is about trying to help you achieve your best self, to have these people convey their vast knowledge so that you can take from that what works for you. You may not agree with everything. That's fine. Take what works for you. Discard the rest and use it. Incorporate it into your life to optimize your own health, wellness, and fitness, and nutrition. The idea is to empower you to unlock and unleash your best self. So today on the show, I have a very exciting guest, somebody with whom I have many points of intersection and overlapping interests.

Her name is Hilary Biscay. She's one of the bright shining stars on the Ironman professional circuit. And she is quite prolific in her career. She just finished her 60th Ironman down in Brazil. Can you believe that? 60 Ironmans. And she continues to improve and get faster. In fact, her race down in Brazil, I think it was her second fastest Ironman ever. The only faster Ironman that I believe she's done was at Challenge Roth, I'm not sure how you say it, which is a really fast course.

So she's really awesome. She's really cool. And she's also the first guest that I've had on the show who is also an Ultraman competitor. She did it back in 2010, which was a year that I skipped, that I didn't compete. Unfortunately, it would have been really fun to do the race with her. And she sits down with me and we talk all about the Ultraman experience from the perspective of a professional Ironman triathlete, which is pretty unique. She's one of the only pros who has competed at this race,

and she has a unique perspective on it, which I am excited to share with you. So anyway, we get into all different kinds of things. We talk about another point of intersection, which is the fact that she came up with a college swimming background, similar or the same as myself, guess similar to myself uh and kind of how that's informed how she approaches her training and her racing uh what she learned from her swimming experience and and how that helps inform her performance we talk about nutrition she's also plant-based, which is really interesting. One of the few professional Ironman triathletes out there that is plant-based. And she shares her

perspective on that, what's worked for her, what she's learned, the mistakes that she's made, and how she's continuing to learn, evolve, and dial it in. So she is wealth of information, uh, and, uh, super cool too. It's an honor to, uh, it's an honor to know her and that she took time out of her busy training schedule to sit down here. She was visiting, she lives in Tucson, but she was visiting Los Angeles and her family's down in Palos Verdes, which if you know, Los Angeles is pretty far from where I live. And she hiked all the way up in her car to do the show, which is pretty cool. So thanks for that, Hillary. Anyway, before we get into the interview, a couple show notes,

the first of which is the t-shirt contest. The t-shirt contest continues. What is the t-shirt contest? Well, we just came out with these cool plant power t-shirts. If you look on my Instagram feed, you can see a couple pictures of me wearing it. I'm at at ritual on Instagram. And I posted in the show notes for today's show an image of what the front of the t-shirt looks like. We only did a limited small run, but I set aside, I was going to do just one t-shirt, but I think I'm now going to do two.

I'm going to give away two t-shirts to you guys out there, the listeners. And there's a couple of rules to follow to qualify to win. For the very specific rules, go to the show notes for this episode at richroll.com and you can read all about it. But the essence of it is basically what I need you to do is post a picture on Instagram and then share it on your social network, either Facebook or Twitter of you listening to this podcast or reading Finding Ultra, tag my name at Rich Roll and tag hashtag plant power so I see it and I'm going to pick from all the posts the most creative or fun ones and those guys are going to be the winners so two of you out there that's how you qualify to win and for those of you who have already been doing it the contest

has been up for a couple weeks it's been really fun checking out the posts and I appreciate everybody who's posting on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, you know, all the social networks out there. Lots of great feedback. It keeps me revved up. It keeps me going and excited about doing the show and bringing the content to you. Anyway, the t-shirt design is super badass. I think it's really cool and I'm really excited about doing a bigger run of them very soon and making them available to everybody out there to purchase. So I'll keep you posted on that as it develops. But my hope is that in the next couple weeks, it's now the end of July. What is it? The end of June. It's June 24th right now. So hopefully by mid-July, I'll have those up on the website and available for you guys to buy them. And I'll, of course, keep you purchased on that. What else? On that note, Julie and I just finished a three-day video shoot on plant-based nutrition for beginners. We're doing it in partnership with MindBodyGreen, and I can't get into the details of it, but suffice it to say that it's going to be a pretty

awesome program. It was exhausting preparing for this, trying to structure it, and then trying to shoot everything that we wanted to say, all the information we wanted to convey and the helpful tools in just three days of filming. But I think we accomplished a tremendous amount and I feel really proud of this project. And of course, as it continues to develop and as we get closer to being able to launch it and offer it to you guys, I will of of course, apprise you of the details of that. You might have seen some pictures on my Facebook page or on Instagram or Twitter, where I posted a couple behind the scenes shots from the shoot. It was really fun. We had a great crew. And of course, having the support of mindbodygreen.com, which is essentially your one-stop destination for wellness on the internet

is a great partner for us and provides us with a, an amazing platform for us to further share our, our message to the largest audience possible. So anyway, again, stay tuned. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and

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I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. So without further ado, let's get into the interview. so without further ado let's get into the interview hillary biscay my favorite favorite female professional ironman athlete by far she's a delight she's an inspiration and she's a powerhouse so without further ado ladies and gentlemen check it out hillary biscay Biscay. Smash Fest Queen.

How's it going? It's going great, Rich. Thanks for having me. Yeah, thanks for driving all the way up from pb to be here man i appreciate it my pleasure i love being up here it's awesome yes my second podcast interview today i'm trying to bang i did one this morning too so i'm getting super into it all the time that i was that i used to spend training i'm now sitting in front of a microphone it's pretty funny but uh so um we have so many like points of intersection to talk about you know we have we both were college swimmers we both did ultraman we have pretty

similar diets where do we even begin i don't even know where to start i know i feel like i feel like i've known you forever but really we've only hung out like three times. I know, just a couple times. Well, I guess we could start with, I mean, you just got back from Brazil, right? Yep, just came back from my seventh time at Ironman Brazil. Seventh time, your 60th Ironman. Yes, it was my 60th birthday. That's so crazy. I can't even like wrap my brain around that and your time and you

did your your fastest I am Brazil there right I did yeah yeah it was my second fastest Ironman ever and my fastest time on that course I mean times at Ironman are not really that relevant but I do think they become relevant when you do the same course over and over and over right and your 60th Ironman you you're still getting faster, you're getting better. I mean, you know, how do you, you know, what is it that you think that allows you to continue to improve? Well, I don't think it was like a, it hasn't been like a completely sort of linear progression. I mean, there have been a lot of bumps in the road and I just happened to now, I think be back on a,

like not winning cause I'm, cause I didn't actually win, but like a good streak, I guess we have that, we have that back. Um, but it's, I mean,

really when I, when I look at the big picture, it's probably been like a bit of a, like tougher, like three or so years to this point. So, really, when I look at the big picture, it's probably been a bit of a tougher three or so years to this point. So I think that now my training is in a good spot. My coach Siri and I are kind of on a roll, and I have my confidence back mentally, and I think that's half the battle. Right. So peaks and valleys.

I mean, it's, it's kind of easy to look at you and your career and go, well, she's just freak of nature. I mean, you know, who else could do this many Ironman? She's obviously like wired for this and you make it look so easy and you continue to post these amazing results. You know, obviously you look at it and some are better than others or you have your, your lulls or what have you. at it and some are better than others or you have your your lulls or what have you but um but yeah I mean it seems like you're emerging from you know last year was you know from just based on my 10,000 foot view of your results or whatever you know you weren't exactly performing as as best as I think you think you could and now you're kind of you're back on the scenes cool yeah yeah no thank you um i do think yeah exactly the past probably three years i would say more of my results uh were sort of unsatisfying for for me than than otherwise so it's it's nice to have a couple of, I guess, two Ironmans in a row now in three weeks that I felt were amongst my best performances.

And yeah, it makes me feel like I'm kind of rolling again. So I'm not going to let you get out of this. You kind of slipped it in there, like two Ironmans in three weeks. Like for you, that slips off your tongue like that's normal. Ironmans in three weeks. Like for you, that comes off, that slips off your tongue. Like that's normal, you know, conventional wisdom is, is, is, oh, you can only do a couple Ironmans a year, any more than that. And you're going to burn out or you're going to get injured. And that's never really been your approach. I mean, you're racing Ironmans all the time. Yeah. I think three weeks to me is a pretty decent sized break. Like I've, I've done them a week apart. I've done them

two weeks apart. Three weeks is, is kind of a timeframe that, that to me is like unquestionably manageable for me personally. Um, well, and not to mention the fact that the, when you did two in a row back to back, right. The second one was Wisconsin that you won, right? Yeah. Yeah. So I, back, right? The second one was Wisconsin that you won, right? Yeah. Yeah. So I I've sort of figured out that the one week timeframe works very well for me. Uh, by contrast, I have tried the two week timeframe multiple times and that does not work. So I would take a Ironman's a week apart over two weeks, like any day. How do you think you, how did it evolve that you were going to be this, this person who races all the time?? I mean, that's sort of been your distinguishing feature as a pro is that you race Ironmans more frequently than most, if not anybody out there. I mean, how did that evolve?

I mean, how did that come to be your thing? Well, it was kind of out of necessity in the beginning, to be honest, because, I mean, as I think most pros have experienced, be honest, because I mean, as I think most pros have experienced when you're starting out and trying to make it as a pro sponsorships are typically fairly minimal and you have to race for a living. Well, for me, I just don't have the speed to go to a half Ironman and make a decent paycheck. So my option in running around and doing a bunch of races, trying to earn a living was doing a bunch of Ironmans. to earn a living was doing a bunch of Ironmans. I mean, that was how I was even going to have a chance at making it financially. So that's what I did. And, um, the first, the first year I tried it, I didn't even, I didn't do that

many. I think I did three or four and didn't go that great. Cause I wasn't that fit. But once I started training with Brett Sutton, my first season with him, I was able to do it and do like six top fives in that season. And that for me was eight with a couple of small sponsorships was enough for me to actually stop just putting things on the credit card and was able to like break even that year or make a few bucks so there i fit like i was forced to figure out that i could do it and since so since since i knew that i could now i just now that's what i do right and it's kind of counter programming because it seems like most pros will pick a couple iron mans but then they'll race a ton of half iron mans and that's the way they're making a living because they can race you you know, sort of weekend and week out a little more effectively

that way and still, um, you know, make some prize money and do the appearances, but you're sort of going against that grain and saying, well, now I'm just going to do Ironmans all the time. I mean, is it easier now that there's more races because it thins, it kind of thins the pro herd, right, at these races? You know what? I mean, theoretically, I mean, you would think that it would. But no, because the field, I think especially amongst the women, is just getting deeper and deeper every year. So that we need those extra races to spread things out because the competition is getting more and more stacked. And also what our governing body, the WTC, has done is that they've made they've weighted the races so that some races have a very small prize purse and some races have a bigger prize purse.

have a bigger prize purse. So if you're going to a theoretically sort of less deep race, you're also not going to make a whole lot of money for doing that race. Right. So, yeah. I'm fascinated by kind of the economics of being a pro triathlete because it takes so much effort, time, discipline, you know, to prepare properly for an Ironman. And, you know, the prize money is not that great and it doesn't go that deep, you know, down from the podium. And the,

you know, the travel, you're always traveling to these exotic locations all over the world. And, you know, with the exception of a handful of people at the very, very peak of the sport, exception of a handful of people at the very, very peak of the sport. Like I, I look at it and I go, how has anybody, you know, making this work? Like, how does it, how does it work for you? That is a fantastic question. Um, it has definitely gotten, I mean, as the field has gotten deeper, I think, um, it has gotten more and more difficult to make a living off of prize money and i think also the sort of other i've seen over my few years as a pro now the other incentives like appearance money and even big money sponsorships i think are sort of disappearing or getting more and more sort of diluted throughout the sport. So now, yeah, I would say you're right. There are a very few people who can just race and that's it

like for a living. For me now, I've got three jobs. I've got the racing job and having things that I do for my sponsors and that. And I have a coaching business and I've just started my own clothing business and we're building that brand. And I know for sure that for me, the magic would definitely no longer be happening if I weren't working those other jobs. You got, how many, how many people are you coaching right now? I have about 15 right now. And then I have another coach who works under me and she has a few athletes of her own.

Oh, that's, that's cool. So yeah, delegating too. Yeah. Well, I mean, there is, I would coach 50 athletes if I had the time because I just love it so much. Although I don't think that I could coach 50 athletes if it was all I was doing. I think it's just too labor intensive and hard to do a good job with that many. But yeah, 15 is right about my max.

And a few years ago, I never could have handled that. But I think that you learn how to be more efficient and do a better job, um, as years go on. So, so yeah, I mean, I think that it is, I mean, back to the original question, I think that, that even those, even those, those folks who sort of do just quote unquote, just race and train for a living, they are still out there, you know, doing a ton of work on their personal brand and doing all the various things that they need to do to add value for their sponsors. Um, and it's, it's definitely, definitely not just about, you know, showing up at the race and doing the work. Right, and being on the podium. I mean, you have to be, you have to

distinguish yourself and your identity and, and it sounds so lame to say your brand, but you know, really that's what it is. You know, how, you know, why do people care if you get placed, you know, second, third, fourth, whatever at a race, like, unless you have a phone, I would, you know, I would think like stuff like Twitter and all that kind of stuff comes into play. Like you've got to, that becomes part of your job. Yep. Yeah, absolutely. It is. And, um, I think that's something that probably most of my call, like most of my colleagues and most other pros now understand, um, is that that's sort of the second piece of our job because yeah, the race takes place over a very small timeframe and maybe it's televised. Maybe it's not, maybe it gets coverage in the magazines, maybe it doesn't, but all the rest of the promotion of your sponsors is,

is up to you and how proactive you are in doing that. Yeah. And you've done an amazing job with your blog. I mean, your blog is super popular. You're always very like forthcoming and welcoming and you make it fun and you know, it's cool. I mean, there aren't that many, I mean, you know, most, most pro athletes have a blog or a website, but you're very proactive on it. You know, you're always posting and always trying to add value and, you know, keep it entertaining. And it really is a window into, into your life, not just racing and training, but like your personal life. So you read your blog and it's like, Oh, I know this person, you know, she feels like my friend. I try, I try, I try to work on that because yeah, I think, I think that it's, it helps people to, to know you as a person and, and of course to sort of maybe get a glimpse into what goes into what we do for a living. And,. And yeah, I'm happy to, I quite enjoy writing

because that's what I did in my previous life. So for me, this is kind of like an obvious outlet. Right. I want to talk about that in a minute, but I don't want to gloss over your third job as CEO of Smashfest Queen. So you're sitting across from me in uh in a tank top from from your line smash which by the way the design is exceptional like who who like who who is doing this with you the logo is extraordinary oh my gosh that is all my amazing business partner michelle landry who is many time iron woman hawaii iron man fin, um, a dear friend of mine for years.

Also like one of the athletes that I've, um, coached. And she is really like the, she has the artistic vision, um, and skill. Um, and so we sort of, I know what I like. And so I can say, I like how that looks, but she can say, you know, the hummingbird tail needs a bit more shading here in this color. And then I see how that turns out. And I'm like, that's awesome. I love it. That's brilliant.

Perfect. But I don't know how to make it look that way. And that's her. I mean, she is the artistic one in the relationship. Well, you found the right person because the designs are really cool. It kind of reminds me of Free City. Do you know Free City stuff? It used to be a retail store down in Malibu.

I think they closed it. I think they sell their stuff in like Fred Siegel and stuff like that. It's not tri-gear. It's not athletic apparel, but it has that. It's casual wear, but it has that similar kind of design aesthetic with the bright colors and all that. It's really cool. But I have to say, I'm a little pissed because you're not making men's stuff,

which brings up like a huge gripe that I have. Because I go to the running shoe store or the athletic apparel store, and I'm immediately gravitated to like, this says a lot about me, but I gravitate towards the women's shoes, like running shoes, because they always have cool colors and bright colors. And it's always like, I was like, I want that. And then you go to the men's section. It's like the same old black pair of, you know, running shorts and the like really lame looking shoe with the muted gray and blue. And I'm like, why can't you make those cool colors for guys? Right. You know, that's so interesting. Well, you know, obviously it doesn't sell if it's sold. Right. And you know, they know the market research says, Oh, guys don't, guys don't want to wear that kind of stuff.

Yeah. I'm, you know, maybe I'm weird that way, but no, we've had so many guys ask for stuff and we did do like a limited run of men's cycling kits and now of course now that mikey showed up wearing it all these guys want it definitely i would definitely wear that kit i'll put a picture in the show notes up of the kick because it's super cool oh thank you yeah and i he may even he's he wants to wear our women's multi-colored tri-kit ironman austria in a couple weeks i'm just not sure if i can fit him into a large women's tri-kit but i've got one packed in the bag so we we're going to cut the built-in bra out and see how we go. All right. Well, I'm going to make you commit to doing a men's line. Then

you're going to have to change your website though, right? Because it's Smashfest Queen. I know. I know. But there is a reason we named it Smash. I'm okay with that. You can call me a Smashfest Queen. I'll wear it. I got no problem with that love it but uh that's great so so um what's the plan there just continue to slowly organically grow it or you know what are you looking to do with it yeah well we are in the process of um of designing and working on the manufacturing piece of doing our own garments because we have someone else making them for us right now. But that's really the next big step that we're going to take. And then, yeah, and then once we have that,

I think we'll have the capacity to produce more than we are producing right now because as it stands, we seem to get things in and then sell out of them in two weeks and then have to order again. And so we're kind of just learning about how much to order and so that we can sort of keep things in stock. It's a big learning process for us. Yeah, but these are quality problems. Yes, yes. It's totally good. You're selling out on pre-orders. You're doing something right. So keep going. Thank keep going thank you yeah no we're

we're very pleased it's all good all right well i want to rewind a little bit um you know touching on one of the kind of points in common that we have is both being college swimmers and i won't hold it against you that you went to usc we'll talk about that later um and uh and you were quite the college swimming standout i mean you swam at olympic trials i mean you competed in swimming at a very high level um how do you think that that has informed your approach to training and racing in in ironman that's funny because i definitely being on the team at usc which was like a swimming powerhouse and having so many teammates who were on Olympic teams and I mean, world record holders, gold medalists, the whole deal. I certainly didn't feel like a standout in that role.

That was very much a little fish in a big pond. And that was. That's another thing we have in common. I was on the team at Stanford, but I certainly wasn't like scoring a lot of points. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, same thing. And, and that was, I mean, that was by my choosing. It was kind of like a game time decision. Like when I was, I mean, my parents were, had their heart set on me going to Harvard and I, and I loved Harvard and, but, but it was, it was that it was go there and be the, be the best swimmer on the team as a freshman or go somewhere where I was a little fish. And I had the, I did the exact same

thing. I got into Harvard and I, I told him, I told coach Bernal that I was going. Did you really? And then I visited Stanford at the last minute and I was like, no, I gotta, I gotta try this. Yeah. And I wouldn't have been the best swimmer at Harvard, but I certainly would have been a little bit of a bigger fish. Well, their men's team was legit. Yeah, like Dave Burkhoff was there. They were a level above, for sure. But yeah, that was a very, very tough decision for me.

I mean, I remember distinctly, like, I got into Harvard. Like, who gets into Harvard? You know what I mean? Like I couldn't believe it. And when you get into Harvard, they send you this document that looks like a diploma. My dad has it on his desk. He's framed on his desk still. Yeah. And your name is in calligraphy on it. And you look at it and you're like, well, who am I to say no to this? Like, are you insane? And when I made that decision and I told my parents, I mean, my parents were like, are you, are you crazy? Like, what are you doing? You know? And I, and sometimes I think back and I go, God, I wonder how different my life would be had I made a different decision. I don't regret it. I'm glad, you know, with the decision that I made, but it's interesting. I didn't know that, that part of your story.

That's so funny. Yep. Yep. I mean, but thankfully my sister like took up the family uh the family torch and did her did her law school there because yeah all i had to show for myself was that certificate um but your dad framed it i wonder what happened to mine that is so funny and mine's legit still framed on my dad's desk so still hold that over you no i think they kind of got over it when my sister went but then it was probably until then that i still got some grief for that exactly and now she's ensconced downtown working her butt off at o'melveny and on the michael jackson trial while we're sitting out here on the beautiful right right i mean doing a podcast it was really the first of a series of decisions yeah She's getting paid a lot more.

Yeah, exactly, exactly. That was the first of many decisions that made the parents think I was nuts. So yeah, so I actually went to University of Michigan that at the time was the second of the, like second in NC2As for women's swimming. Oh, you went there first. I went there for a year.

Well, here we have another point in common. No way. Yeah. So, uh, I don't mean to interrupt you, but I have to interject. Tell me. Um, well, my entire family is originally from Michigan. Um, my parents are from Detroit. I was born in Michigan. All my cousins are from Grand Rapids. We spent all our summers in Michigan. And my grandfather was captain of the University of Michigan swim team in 1929. Oh, my gosh. He was an American record holder in the 150-yard backstroke. No way. You can believe that was an event.

And, yeah, he was an Olympic hopeful. He got fourth at Olympic trials. But he was like a contemporary of like Johnny Weissmuller and like the great swimmers of the day when it was like Michigan, Michigan was like the premier swimming program back then. Um, and so when I was looking at schools, it's like, well, I, I went to Michigan. I love John Urbanchek, the coach there is like my absolute favorite, you know? And I seriously considered going, going there as well. Like I've tons, tons my my cousin was editor of the michigan daily newspaper like oh you know like i have a lot of my my dad went to law school there my mom went to undergrad there so no way i almost i almost ended up there as well it was so cold and

gray i know i was just over the grayness after about eight months and you were like i'm out of here no more matman i came home for the summer and went to swim with trojan swim club at usc and was like like i'm not going back like i had my michigan tattoo and everything i was staying like i was really i didn't have that intention but um came back here to the sunshine and you did get a michigan tattoo i was the ring leader of our freshman class because all the swimmers got the m the blue block m tattoo but who was the freaking ring leader i was the ring leader and then i was one of the transfersimmers got the M, the blue block M tattoo. But who was the freaking ringleader? I was the ringleader, and then I was one of the transfers. I was the first one to get the tattoo.

You still have the block M on you? It has been slightly transformed. Oh, it has? All right. Yes. It's been slightly covered up. That's really funny. Yeah, my grandfather, his coach was Matt Mann. That's what the pool is named after there, the Matt Mann.

Right. Not a tour M. No way. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Crazy, right? Which was Matt Mann, who's the, that's what the pool is named after there, the Matt Mann Auditorium. No way. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Crazy, right? But I don't blame you. Gray, freezing cold.

Yeah. You're like, I'm out of here. I was, I mean, I hadn't even considered going to USC because that was way too close to home, but. That's a whole other podcast. Yeah. Where you're like, I want to get away from home. Yeah, no, it was, and I didn't think, I wanted to get away from home. Yeah. No, it was.

And I didn't think I wanted to be in school 45 minutes from where I grew up. But when I came back here and swam with that program and just it was such a such a good swimming program, such an amazing bunch of athletes to train with that. I just totally into it. Right. But I was definitely low man on the totem pole and just happy to be at Olympic trials. And who was your coach there? Mark Schubert. Maybe the most for the uninitiated or people listening out there who don't know that much about the world of swimming.

Mark Schubert is quite possibly the most legendary swim coach of all time. I mean, countless, countless Olympians. I mean, he dates way back. I mean, he pioneered the Mission Viejo swimming program, which back in the 1970s was like the real first powerhouse club swimming program that just was, you know, basically producing Olympic gold medalists all over the place. Totally. Totally. He was super hardcore, super scary. Um, but, but sort of training under coaches like that as, as a swimmer really, yeah. I mean that, that I think like shaped me as a triathlete because there's a whole sort of skillset that you acquire being in a program like that. That's just, that transfers very well to this, this world, I think. that transfers very well to this world, I think.

Yeah, I mean, I think that it's actually surprising to me that there aren't more college-level swimmers in the world of pro triathlon because there is a certain incredibly rigorous discipline that goes into training and competing at that level in swimming. I mean, I speak to it only because that's my only experience. I wasn't like a track and field athlete or anything like that. So I don't know that much about those worlds, but when you're swimming, you know, upwards of 20,000 meters a day and you're getting up and going to, you know, practice at four 30 in the morning and swimming

for two, two and a half hours in the morning. And then, you know, two, three hours at night, every day, not including dry lands like that is that's, you know, that's on a, on par with what it's like to prepare for an Ironman. It's the same kind of, you know, I think you need the same kind of mental discipline and focus as well as the ability to kind of withstand and survive, you know, that amount of physical beating day in and day out. Totally, totally. Yeah, no, I mean, I absolutely agree. And I would guess that the reason why we don't, we don't see more of us in our sport is, is I,

I really felt like, well, swimmers can't run. Well, they can't. I mean, I can't run though. I figured out a way to make it happen.

But, um, I mean, that's where we used to run. Um, you, when you got put in the fat group or preseason, but I was always kind of both.

I was in preseason running and fat group running, which means you run year round. Well, it means Schubert tells you you're like overweight. So that means you have to come like three mornings a week early to training because you're overweight and run. That's a healthy message. So I was always in fat group too. But I was like most of the team was faster in our three miler morning jogs than I was I was definitely not not a runner really but I

think that probably that I felt I kind of felt like the vast majority of people that I swam with finished their careers like totally over it whereas I mean just burnt out and we're sort of counting the days till they could fulfill their commitment for their scholarship or whatever and and for me it just for whatever reason it was just it was never like that it was when I was I retired after Olympic trials because that was a few months after I graduated and um because there was no career in swimming for me I had to get a real job and all of that. And I was one of the few people who I wasn't counting my days. I wasn't excited to be done,

but it's just, it was time. There was no other options for me in swimming. But I think, I think a lot of people end that because of the demands that you just described. I think a lot of people finish that very. Yeah.

They're like, it's over. Over it. Yeah. I'm so glad it's done. Yeah. Yeah. It's just that

just wasn't my experience and i think also you know kind of uh taking off on this idea of being a small fish in a big pond i know for me and i'm interested in what it was like for you you you go into workout every day looking for how you're going to overcome this kind of talent deficit. Like you're surrounded by people. Like I swam in a lane, the Butterfly Lane, every day with Pablo Morales, you know, Olympic gold medalist, you know, the winningest swimmer in NCAA history, American record holder, blah, blah, blah, whatever. And, you know, I just stared at his feet as they got further and further in front of me every day. And I'm like, what could I possibly do to bridge this gap? I'm never going to, I don't have his stroke. I don't have his physical build. I'm never going to be as good as him. So what can I do with

the, with, you know, the, whatever I've been given to, you know, make that gap a little bit smaller. And for me, it was always, I got to work harder. You know, I got to, I got to train harder. I got to be more focused in my training. Um, and I think that that is something that really translates well into the world of triathlon. Totally. I agree. And I think that's, that's one of the things that really sort of got me hooked on this sport and particularly at these longer distances is I feel like certainly talent is, you know, a contributing factor to one success in this sport, but I think it's much less of a contributing factor than it.

It is in a one minute swimming race. Yeah. There's always going to be the outlier, like the Scott Jurek, who's, you know, super gifted, you know, but I think in general, that is a, There's always going to be the outlier like the Scott Jurek who's super gifted.

But I think in general that is accurate that the longer the distances is, talent becomes reduced as a factor and the work becomes more paramount. Exactly. And that's so I felt like this is if there was ever a ballgame for for me, this is it because I can suffer and I can train a lot. Yeah, exactly. How does the transition occur from swimming into triathlon and then, you know, ultimately under kind of Brett Sutton's umbrella? triathlon and then, you know, ultimately under kind of Brett Sutton's umbrella? Well, I remember the morning after my last race, which I think was August 13th of 2000, we were in Indianapolis for the trials and I'm like, right, well now I've got a, now I'm going

to be a runner. I'm going to be a triathlete. And it was, I had already, I think, picked on the calendar, my first marathon, which was going to be the California international marathon in December. So this was very calculated. You're like, I'm going to do this now. I have to perpetuate this lifestyle. I mean, it wasn't like I never in a zillion years that I think I'm going to be professional triathlete and this is going to be my job. Never, never, ever. I mean, a couple of my best friends were good enough to be professional swimmers. And that was just, that looked like an absolute dream to me, but I never thought that that kind of, that a professional athlete would be my life. It was just like, I want to do a marathon, which to me at that point in time was mind boggling.

And then I want to do a triathlon, forget about Ironman. That was like not really sort of in my head at that point. So the morning after my last race, I remember going out and running 30 minutes. And it was like hot, humid Indianapolis summer. And I remember I actually hadn't run in several months because. So wait, so you're still at Olympic trials. I'm at the meet, yeah. The meet isn't even over yet. Yeah, my fiance at the time, who was one of my teammates,

he was still racing, but I was like, right, I got to go running this morning. Meet wasn't over. You just can't sit still at all. Yeah, I don't know. I just had this thing in my head, and I went out for 30 minutes and it almost killed me because somehow I had managed to escape the fat group for several months because I'd gotten like ridiculously overtrained. And so coach had pulled me from, from running. Um, but yeah, I remember 30 minutes just not heat. And I remember it being so, so hard. And I said, right, well, I just have

to do this every day until it gets easier. And that's what I did. Right. And so you do that first marathon and how'd that go? I ran actually, uh, with Colleen walk up who, you know, and it was her first, my best friend since I was nine, I made her run with me. We did all of our training together and we ran side by side the whole time and chatted. Actually, she would say that I was just talking the whole time. And just to interject, Colleen Walkup is married to Jason Walkup, who, if you've been listening to the show, was just on the podcast a couple episodes ago. The mind-body-green guy. Yes, yes, exactly.

And so we ran the whole thing together. We crossed the finish line holding hands in three hours and 49 minutes. I love that you still remember your time. Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean, I was just like, so, so impressed with myself. I mean, breaking four hours, that was just, yeah, it's pretty good. Yeah. It was a, it was a big day. So that was the beginning of this addiction, this addiction. Yeah. You just, you just put it right on the table. Yeah. All right. So, so then, so, so, so when does the bike come in?

Oh, you're probably thinking, well, that wasn't so bad. And I'm obviously good at swimming. Right. Well, the bike actually, the bike actually came, the bike actually arrived roughly one year before that, simply because there was like a sprint triathlon on in Hermosa beach. Um, this was the beginning of my senior year of college and it involved a nine mile bike ride. So my parents and I had a couple of friends who were like entered in it. So my parents got me for my birthday, my first bike, and I rode it for like 10 miles once and then did the

triathlon. Um, so I had actually ridden a bike. Don't tell once and then did the triathlon. Um, so I had actually ridden a bike. Don't tell me you like won the triathlon. No, I think I was like fourth or something like that, but it was a little sprint race in Hermosa beach. Um, so the bike was there. It just wasn't being used a whole lot. And I, I had these visions of doing tries, but I remember I was living up in Palo Alto and I remember that I would, I would go out in my bike for about four or five miles and I would get scared of a car and turn around and come home. So it wasn't,

there was not a lot of riding going on. Right. But there were, there were ideas about this triathlon thing. So then how does that start to get realized? Well, that starts to get realized because like six weeks after my first marathon, I decided to do a 50 miler. Um, because that seems like a good idea. No, a 50 mile run.

Like an Avalon 50. Of course. Right. Who doesn't come to that conclusion? It was like, well, I did this, so now I could probably do 50. That was kind of my train of thought. So then I did this 50 miler, I survived that. And then it was like, well, I ran for, it took me like nine hours and 40 minutes. But you, you ran an ultra before you really had ever done a legit triathlon. You'd only done one marathon. Yeah. But I'd done like the Hermosa beach try twice. Right. That was it. So yeah. So I thought, okay, I ran for nine hours and 40 minutes. So I can surely I can do swim, bike and run combo for like 13 hours. That's what I was figuring. So literally probably the week

after I finished that run in January, I entered Ironman Florida for November. Gotcha. Having done a sprint try. Gotcha. So that was how I got my name on my first Ironman start list. Right. And did you, you know, how did you approach that? I mean, did you hire a coach or do you just thought, I'm going to, I'll figure it out. Yeah, I'll figure it out. I didn't hire a coach until Brett Sutton. So that was like 2006, end of 05. So I did five years or so of like winging it.

Yeah, that first year, I mean, I had no idea. I did like an Olympic distance, a half Ironman, and then Ironman was next. And how did that go? You know, it exceeded my expectations once again, because I thought I would do roughly 13 hours and something. That was kind of my prediction. And I did it in 12 and a half hours. The bike ride took me 7.03, and I did not know how to use my

air bars. I was on a road bike with clip ons, but I didn't get in them even though we were in Florida and it was dead flat because I couldn't balance on my bike in my air bar. So, um, did the whole thing sitting up and, uh, but like ran the marathon felt okay. It was completely crippled afterwards cause I was totally ill prepared but um but I loved it and you're hooked so you know how do you get on Brett Sutton's radar I mean you can't just hire Brett Sutton right you have to you have to be performing at a really high level before something like that can be possible well that was like so that was fast forward four years after my first Ironman.

Um, so I had done several Ironman by that point. I had a race as a pro for one season. My first year racing pro was 2005 and I was definitely struggling. Like I had quit my day job and in an attempt to sort of try to make a go with this. And I mean, there was, I was nowhere close to being able to make a living.

What were you doing for a day job? Um, in a phd program and teaching undergrad at usc yeah yeah so i took a leave of absence in uh american literature exactly um so the whole reason i was able to even get brett sutton's attention was because I had a friend, a very good friend who had, um, had trained with him. He was in like a standout age group athlete who had been coached by Brett online way before Brett even had an email account. Like literally he would receive emails from Brett's wife and it was crazy. It was super old school. Um, but had been out to Switzerland and like spent time with Brett in person. Um, and so he contacted Brett for me. And the only reason I think that Brett took me on at that time, um, I mean, at the time he had like one Ironman athlete,

this is long before Chrissy Wellington. This is long before team TBB before he was trendy. He was just this like fringe, like coach that was known in the ITU. Cause he had had plenty of like ITU world champions, but in the Ironman world people were like who is Brett Sutton um he's just some crazy crazy guy so he's like the Mark Schubert of triathlon well exactly and that was and but Brett had previously been a swim coach like for the Australian national team so he knew Schubert well and he said she can swim for Schubert she can handle this I mean obviously he looks at you and he goes she swam for Schubert. She can handle this. I mean, obviously he looks at you and he goes, she swam for Schubert. She was at the Olympic trials.

You know, like there's potential here. I guess. I mean, that was his assessment from afar. I mean, I remember when we were going back and forth before he agreed to let me come for a trial and we were going back and forth over email and he asked me for like a resume so i sent him my results and my splits and he writes back with like his assessment and like the first you know in the first couple sentences he says well the swim is said the the bike is shit the run is shit and for a swimmer the swim is shit too and i was like awesome

he's a kid you're like okay i don't you know you're like he's he's my guy exactly i just i think that because like he probably agreed to take me on ultimately because i was unfazed by that comment and i just said i remember writing back like i'm not looking for flattery just a means to get faster and um and so I went off to Switzerland and and that was that was you have to you have to try out right is that how yeah I mean you yeah I mean he basically like gave me directions to this little Swiss village in the middle of nowhere like I mean I mean, I remember the email he sent with, you know, get off at this train stop. And I mean, literally in the middle of nowhere. And, um, and yeah, I just, I went there for like a month or so and he checked things out and it was, and then the first sort of criteria of his first sort of screening, I guess, was this was September

of oh five and I qualified for Hawaii and was planning to race Hawaii the next month. And he was like, yeah, no, you're not going to Hawaii. Like you either come to Switzerland, so you have no business being in Kona. Like you're not good enough for that. So, um, you need to like bail on that and come to Switzerland or we're done here. So I just had to totally change my plans. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so how did things start to change? I mean, you know, paint a picture of what it was like to be training underneath them. I mean, he's such a mythic figure in the sport. Well, it was a big sort of culture shock for me coming from Southern California and my cell phone and my fro-yo and that whole thing. Going to like middle of nowhere small town in

switzerland don't speak the language um mind you this is like before the days of blackberry before the days of skype i didn't have internet in my apartment like you would have to go to the smoke filled cafe to have any contact with the outside world really and use the internet there um and you don't know you know you don't know what you're doing tomorrow you don't even know what you're doing at 3 p.m today all you know is that you have to be at the pool at 7 a.m just ostensibly to swim some days he'll say no go running instead right but and then he'll tell you what you're doing in that swim workout and after the swim workout he'll tell you what you're doing at 10 a.m and then he may tell you what you're doing in that swim workout. And after the swim workout, he'll tell you what you're doing at 10 a.m. And then he may tell you what you're doing at 3 p.m. But you completely,

I mean, I was 27. So I was a full grown adult. And it's not like you're 19. No. Yeah. I'd spent a few years like in the working world. Yeah. I mean, you know, I was a teacher and all these things. And then we're there. And you basically have to basically had to completely give over control of your life to this guy. I mean, that was it. I remember like needing a haircut and you couldn't schedule a haircut anywhere because you didn't know when you had time for a haircut and you weren't gonna know. Um, and how many other athletes were there doing it? Well, when I showed up, because it was the end of the season, um, it was me and two other guys that was it and then they both took off and ultimately it was just me and then i followed brett from there in switzerland to uh

to brazil and then i lived in brazil like with him and one of his other athletes for a couple months um so it yeah it was a very strange thing as an as an adult to just you just basically sign your life over to him he tells you where you're going when what you're doing today tomorrow what to eat from my case he told me what to eat right you know it wouldn't be totally out of the question for him to show up unannounced at your apartment and check what was in your kitchen wow so it was pretty full-on oh my god that's so intense and uh and uh and the from what i understand just in based on what i've read i mean he's incredibly demanding in these workouts right like it's it's at a fever pitch yeah yeah no for sure

i mean there was i mean the first few months were probably sort of the most trying because i was this relatively new pro not knowing knowing I had risked a lot and not knowing whether I was going to like really make this thing work. And I, and there were many, many workouts where I didn't know if I was going to make it through. I didn't know if I was going to survive, you know, and, and then you also have this voice in the back of your head, like is this even going to work out? I was teaching at USC.

Right. And then is it even going to be, am I going to live through this workout, A? And then B, is this all going to pan out? Right. Like several months down the track, it became very obvious that the work was working. track, it became very obvious that the work was working. And then as hard as any given day was like you had, I had then received sort of like confirmation that, yeah, this is working and, and it's all worth it. So was there like one breakthrough race where everything kind of came together and you put the pieces together for the first time? Yeah, definitely. That would like

Ironman Arizona in 2006 was, was my first Ironman of that, of that year. So I had then been with Brett for about six months and, um, and I, I got third and so it was my first podium and. So only a bit, only six months. You'd only been with them six months. So really like six months with your first real coach yeah pretty quick yeah yeah i mean we crammed a lot of work into that time but uh but your body can only absorb so much training and in a given amount of time right i mean it takes years to develop your yeah i mean yes and i think that i probably went into a lot of races that season pretty darn tired um but it was still even me racing tired was still a lot better than me racing unfit

wow so so you get third at Ironman Arizona after working with him for only six months. And then, so, and your first win was in 2008? Yep. 2008. And that was Wisconsin? Exactly. Right. So, so two more years before your first win. I mean, was that, were you under Brett that whole time? I was. Yeah. That win was, I mean, I joined him in September of 05 and that win was in September of 08 and that was three years of working with him which felt like a long time and I mean it was that was a lot of yeah a lot of blood sweat and tears I mean what do you think it is about him that has you know created this mystique about I mean other than sort of abdicating control of your life over to him, what is it that makes him special or unique as a triathlon coach and his ability to kind of produce these champions? I think for sure the Jedi mind control is a big component.

Does he do that with the men too? Because that seems like a female-male kind of control paradigm. Well, I think there's a reason. Because that seems like a female-male kind of control paradigm. There's a reason he doesn't, I think, have as much success with the men. It's because that sort of piece doesn't factor in as much. I'm not trying to stereotype, but I just saw it at work firsthand. And I think that we are a lot more willing to sort of give him that kind of control. I mean, I've seen that with swim coaches on a similar level.

Right, right, exactly. And I mean, in our sport, there is, I think, there's obviously a huge mental piece, especially when you're talking about these longer races and the going gets tough and the self-doubt sets in. And if he can get you to believe that you've got it inside you, well, then that's half the battle. And so that is a big piece. Um, and it's something that I sort of understood from, from the first day that I was there,

which was that just, I just felt like you had to be 150% in. Um, and I mean, I'll, I'll never forget. There was one day we were in Brazil and we were doing hundreds fast. And I mean, he literally was telling us he was inventing time. He was like, no, you didn't do a 1.13. You did a 1.17. And I'm looking at the clock and I know I did a 1.13, but he's telling me that I'm swimming like shit and I actually did a 1.17. He was literally inventing time. And sometimes things got that crazy, but you just have to be like, yes, sir. And you have to like really buy into it. Um, because I knew that made it, you know, that made it more effective. Um, so there's for sure that piece. And then there, for me, the, the other huge piece was just that he subjected us to like, besides making, making you super, super fit just by the daily grind um there was it was really

for me these kind of key sessions that were just so sort of like physically taxing and and like mind-boggling that that he would subject you know me in particular to because a lot of them i had to do by myself. Right. Give me an example of what one of those key workouts. For example, like there was, I remember the weekend before I went to Ironman Louisville, which was the weekend before Wisconsin. So the week, so seven days before Louisville,

I had to do like a marathon on the track, which was basically like 42 800s with a 200 jog in between. So it's just a marathon basically straight running, which was basically like 42, 800. So the 200 jog in between. So it was just a marathon basically straight running, but the 800s were intervals. I mean, that's a week before an Ironman and that's by myself a week before you're going to do two consecutive. Right. Right. Yeah. And it was just like that, those track sessions were just such a head trip. Um, I think more than anything that you're like, Oh, next weekend, I'm going to like run the same distance and have people cheering for me and i'm gonna get paid for it like that's easy and so that for me

was a huge huge takeaway i mean he like there was just a lot of days like that where i would finish them and and i knew that was harder than the race right right And so, um, so at some point, so a year ago you decided to start training with Siri Lindley. Um, when did you, I mean, was there a period in between Brett and Siri where you were doing something else or what, what, you know, what was that transition all about? Yeah. I mean, it was a hard transition after Brett. It was really hard transition after Brett it was really hard because I would have stayed with him forever um and he was very clear like you have three years and I happened to win an Ironman at the end of three years and he I think that sort of far exceeded his expectations for me um and so he was like my work here is done and like I'm over. Um, so I had to find something else and there was nothing else that I was really excited

about because I think he's the best, um, and had to find a new way. And I went through like three different coaches before I found Siri. Um, and that was, that was pretty rough. Um, and that was, that was pretty rough. So finding Siri, um, has been really good because, well, first of all, she trained under Brett and she won two world championships under Brett. So she's very, very familiar with where I came from. And, um, I've also realized that at this point in my career, I have some pretty specific ideas about what I need to be doing in my training.

And whereas with Brad, I quite liked having a set schedule, having zero say over it, never having to think about it, just executing the instructions. But as you mature as an athlete and you gain that experience and you know yourself better, you have a better idea of what works for you and what doesn't, I would imagine. Yeah, exactly. And I, I, I've realized that, that now I sort of need some input over my plan or, or I won't completely buy into it because I am so set on some, you know, a few certain things, but, but Siri has been great because she'll introduce new workouts into my repertoire that challenge me and keep things interesting. And, I mean, if left to my own devices, I would probably just be replicating a program that I did with Brett. And that's not necessarily exactly what I need to be doing now. And there's people listening to this who, you know, aren't triathletes. So just for them, Siri is one of the great triathlete coaches out there.

And I love her to death. She's so cool because she's so full of positive energy. She's like the best cheerleader. And she just wants like her athletes to not only be excelling, but having fun. Like she seems to create this, um, really, you know, forward thinking, optimistic environment around her athletes. And she's one of the only coaches, if not the only who really creates community around her program and her team. Like she, she, I guess she just moved everybody out to Boulder. Is that right? But, but for years she was out here in Los Angeles. I think initially people were like, why are you, why are you doing this in LA? You should go to

Boulder or San Diego or one of these places. But she knew what I know, which is that out here is a great place to train, you know, uh, if you know where to go. Um, and, uh, you know, I would see her group out riding and, you know, she's always like they go off group rides, and she's in the car driving behind them, cheering with her dog. What other coach does that? It's amazing. Right. It is.

It is. Her support is awesome. And, yeah, she's just unfailingly positive and enthusiastic. And that's just been such a great sort of addition to my training. Right. And I wanted to talk about one thing. We talked about this the other day, this idea of the difference between training in a group and training on your own and kind of the perils and pitfalls.

There's positives and negatives that go into when you're training with other people as opposed to training. I'm always kind of a lone wolf for a variety of reasons. You know, I love training with the group, but I also know when I'm training with a group, I might not be sticking to what I'm supposed to be doing for that workout. You know, like every workout has a purpose. And if I'm riding in, you know, the Saturday group ride or, you know, running with friends, I'll look down at my garment and I'm like, I'm either going too fast or too slow, you know, the, the Saturday group ride or, you know, running with friends, I'll look down at my garment and I'm like, Oh, I'm either going too fast or too slow, you know, based on what I'm

supposed to be doing that day. And so I ended up doing most of my training alone. So I just wanted to like tap your experience with that kind of thing. Yeah, I think, I do think that that is a very sort of tricky dynamic to negotiate. And, you know, particularly I found at this point in my career, I do really, really sort of need, I know that I need training partners just for motivation. And it's just, I just, I can see the drastic effect that it has on my motivation for a given session. Um, and so I know that I need these people. Um, but I think that when you're in a group that is too much of a group, I mean, it's, it's great to have one or two people with you. Um, if everyone's sort of on the same page about that workout. But I think that if you get in a bigger group, um, I think the dangers of like a squad environment are that, that people get sort of wrapped up in a, in racing. Um, well, everyone's highly competitive, highly competitive. And the

bigger the group gets, the greater the chances are that there's at least one person who's ready to crush that easy four hour ride. And then your group's going to split up and your choice is to smash yourself or ride by yourself. So that's where sort of a group dynamic gets tough. Um, we're very fortunate in Tucson that we have several pros that live kind of within like three miles of each other. And, um, and one of the, one of series other athletes reigning world champion actually leanda cave lives just down the street from me and so and then my husband obviously does the same thing that i do for a living and so the gcm the gcm the german cycling machine exactly so between all these folks locally it's it's quite easy to um to link up with one or two folks for a session. And then, and then I think it's a lot

easier to accomplish like what your mission is. And we'll always communicate that like, Hey, I've got to do 10 minute efforts today, or I've got to ride easy. Okay. Well, I got to ride a bit harder. So, so you just sit in cool. We're cool. But with the big group, it's a little bit harder to arrange things like that. Right. And how do you think your, how has your training evolved over the years? Like, you know, what, what,

what are the, some of the things that, you know, you've gleaned from all this experience that maybe might be helpful for the amateur out there listening? Gosh. Um, that's a pretty broad,

vague question actually. Well, I mean, I guess, I mean, sort of for me personally, one of the things that I've learned over the years is that I can handle and thrive off of probably a lot more training than look at some of the stuff that I do and say that's ridiculous and that's too much and whatever. But I've, you know, in my time since bread, I've tried it a couple other ways. I've tried it sort of more conventional ways and it doesn't work.

It doesn't work for me. And so, I mean, I need to train a lot and I need to do some days that are probably bigger than most people would advise. But that works for me. do some some days that are probably bigger than most people would advise but that works for me and it is i mean what i've learned is that is it is so everything with training is so individual and i mean it's just with athletes i coach it's the same thing i mean everyone is on a pretty different plan depending on on who they are um but the i mean the general general rules that i and sort of advice that i would give to everyone is just, is it really with our sport? I think that, you know, going well and improving really comes down to discipline and to, you

know, when the alarm goes off in the morning, like get out of bed and do what's on your plan period. Like that, I guess that that seems really, really obvious, but I've realized through working with athletes and just, yeah, being in the sport for a while that that seems really, really obvious, but I've realized through working with athletes and just, yeah, being in the sport for a while that that's not as obvious as it seems to someone who was a college swimmer. When you can't just not show up for workout, you're going to lose your scholarship. Like there's no choice. You just get up and do the training. Right. And that's also informed by being under Brett where it's like, there's no guesswork or

decision-making. You have no responsibility over that. It's abdicated to him. And when you're on your own, you have to be your own Brett Sutton, right? And sometimes that means like the trick that I always use is I just have to turn off my thinking brain. And it's like when the alarm goes off, I don't get into a debate or an argument with myself and try to evaluate all the reasons

why I should stay in bed or whatever. You just get up and you do it as if somebody's telling you, you have to. And sometimes that's the only way that I get out of bed. Exactly. Exactly. No, that's, that's so right. I mean, it's just, yeah, just gay. You posted a quote on Twitter. It was like a few weeks ago. It's something about don't think, just start running or something like that. And I was like, that's so true. It's so true. It just, I mean, I'll be like, you know, for me, the, some of the hardest sessions for me are like afternoon runs. Like I got to do it in the morning, but you know, every once in a while, I have the afternoon run or I do double run day some days. And that afternoon run just wreaks havoc on my mind. Like, I'm just like, I can't do it. I don't want to do it. Cause I

always feel lousy for the first 15 or 20 minutes. And the only way that I do it is I have to not think about it. I have to just start moving. And even if I feel like crap for the first 15 or 20 minutes of it, to just push through that and end that debate. It's like you make a decision mentally, like I can engage this argument in my head and go down the rabbit hole with that or just choose to disengage and not have that argument at all and just start moving your feet because you know i mean again i think that this is on like a nike ad that i had posted in my bathroom for years but and it said no one ever goes out the door for goes out for a run and regrets it right you never once you're out there once you're finished you never regret that you went on it so just go right why is that so hard

though you know no I know life would be a lot easier if it was easier to do that I find afternoon sessions for definitely harder to motivate for then I mean I would love to I mean this morning I kind of banged out consecutive swim bike run because I knew it was coming up here to meet you but that's that's not normal I mean I will usually have something in in the afternoon and it it's it does get harder to right get put everything else aside and get that next workout done for sure so um I want to talk a little bit about ultraman uh you know you're the first you're the first ultraman person i've had on the show oh my gosh really wow yeah i'm so honored i love it so cool so um it's so cool that you as a pro triathlete uh you know took that race on uh you know it's

sort of it's really not on the schedule or the radar for any you know, took that race on, uh, you know, it's sort of, it's really not on the schedule or the radar for any, you know, most pros, or I don't, you know, I don't even know if any of them even consider it, you know, of any merit at all. And, and it was awesome to see you, you know, go and do that race. And I'm interested in, first of all, like why you wanted to do it and also how the preparation, like how the training for that, um, if at all was any different from what you do when you're preparing for an Ironman. Well, it's funny you mentioned that about sort of Ultraman not being on, not being on the pros radars and people not thinking it's sort of worthy of their time because I never, I never,

I never had that perspective on the race because I was introduced to the race by Jonas Colting, who is, was a very accomplished, like Swedish pro, um, who has won Ultraman a couple of times. And, uh, I got to know him just before his, his first Ultraman. And I remember he came to my house in Manhattan beach, either on his way to Hawaii or home from Hawaii. Um, and so that's how I was introduced to it. So I always thought like, yeah, this is this hardcore, like bad-ass race. Jonas does it and he told me how ridiculously hard it was. So I, I mean,

to me that was the minute I heard about it from him, it was, it's been on my radar and that was yet, like I said, oh four or five. So it was a while before I first did it in 2010. Um, and really, I have to admit that my training for that race wasn't all that specific. Um, I had done, I had done eight ironmans that year before old man i mean and and i raced kona which was the month before right it's right before it yeah so well but yeah but for you it's like all right well whatever well so i didn't really have the luxury of doing you know ultra man specific training because it was really sort of like you were gearing for Hawaii, do Hawaii recover.

And then, I mean, I think I literally did probably three, two or three quote unquote Ultraman weeks. But you weren't like banking 40 mile runs and no, no, definitely not. And again, I had done, you know, I had by that point in time, I had done a handful of ultra marathons and whatnot. So I had run 50 miles before, um, like a number of times. So that, that wasn't really, that wasn't the issue, but I mean, if I were to do it again, um, I would, I would do, you know, I didn't do the long bike rides and stuff.

And I really, really suffered a lot, especially on day, on the day two when it's really 70 miles. It's really, it's really a cycling-oriented race. It really is. It's much more balanced to the cyclist. Absolutely, it is. I mean, that's what I tell everyone. Since I did it, I have had a lot of other pros inquire with me

and express interest in doing it in the very near future. And that's what I tell them all. I mean, my girlfriends who are cyclists who have expressed interest. I mean, I tell them it's your race and it's absolutely a cyclist race. So that's what I saw because there's just, things can blow out so far on the bike that I think like, I'm interested to hear what you think about this.

I tell people that for the men, I think that things can change quite drastically for you guys on day three, because I see the guys blowing up like crazy. Like, like you can, I see crazy blow ups amongst the male contenders on day three. I've never seen it amongst the women. Never seen someone walk, like walk a marathon or whatever. Yeah. That's interesting. Um, I think that there's something about women, especially as they advance in age that are adept in this sport, like they just get better and better in the run. You know, like there were some really fast women runners that are just putting the hurt on the guys on that run. You know, you just don't see that in other races. Um, it is interesting. Yeah. I mean, you know, the bike blows it all apart for sure. Um,

and, uh, I don't know what to think. I mean, my perspective on it is, well, first of all, it's the only triathlon where you can even like distinguish yourself for five seconds as a swimmer. So I like that part of it. You know what I mean? You get to like, you get five minutes of glory coming out of the water first, which is nice. And if you're halfway decent on the bike, maybe you can hold onto that for a little while. And you know, I luckily was able to do that one year. Um, but you know, I think for, I think for, you know, Chris Howarth, who's my coach would tell me, he's like, you got to prepare for this. Like you're, you're preparing for the tour to France. Like you got to think like a tour rider and train like a

tour rider and eat like a tour rider. Everything from what you're eating on the bike during, not just during training, but during racing, like eating real food, like they have lunch, you know, while they're, while they're, you know, in the middle of the race and to kind of get into that mindset. It's almost more like that than it is a triathlon in certain respects, I think. And that's so interesting because I learned that from your book when I was reading your account of, of the, the second day bike at Ultraman. That surprised me so much because I just assumed this was this very sort of

individual race because it's so long and everyone's going to get so spread out. But I for sure was not prepared to be riding at like 250 Watts, you know, in the first hour and a half of day two and be getting dropped. Like, yeah. I mean, people just, I mean, you, you, you watch a tour to France in the beginning of the stage, they just all start riding slowly. And then, you and then the pack kind of slowly congeals. There's always somebody who's going to try a breakaway. But at Ultraman, the beginning of day two is 20 miles of downhill on wet pavement as it's raining almost every year. And people just take off.

That's the thing. They just take off from the gun, and you're like, what is going on? And you got 170 miles to ride that day. Right. Right. Yeah. And then I mean, I just remember as soon as we got down that descent, people just started drilling it. Yeah. And I was like, whatever, I'm pacing myself, you know, and I think I sort of missed the pack as it were. And I didn't realize there was going to be a pack, but then there I was and I was solo for the next 150 miles I think I saw two people all day and mentally dumb so dumb and mentally it's brutal yeah to be like

by yourself and like not even know where you are how you start going well they're they're 100 miles ahead I was sure you know when I finished that stage like I was so messed up that I was absolutely and had no idea my my I got flatted so my computer was I had switched out my rear rear wheel so I didn't have my no longer have my computer yeah and in my head I had been out there for like 12 hours I mean I really had no idea and I was sure that you know Amber the leader had must have finished the stage I mean I was absolutely certain that she would have come in an hour and a half ahead of me and in fact she came in like I think a half an hour ahead of me, which is a ton of time. But in my imagination, it was just, it was way bigger than that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, going in, how was it,

you know, with all this experience as an Ironman athlete, like how was it different than what you thought it was going to be? I mean, did you think, Oh, this is just like doing a really long Ironman and you know, if so, how did it differentiate itself? Yeah, I mean, I think I did think it was probably like, like a really long Ironman. That's a good analogy. It was way harder than I expected. And it's not that I expected it to be easy. But I mean, it's kind of like everyone says about your first Ironman first one's the best because you don't know how bad it's gonna hurt. Like Like you can't even imagine. And it was the same thing with Ultraman for me. I mean, and I think part of it is that I really overlooked, like I, in my mind,

day one was going to be super hard. Um, I had done the swim and training and I had done the first stage of the bike and training. And I found that ride to be quite difficult but I had not seen the second day bike and I thought and I knew it was like relatively a lot less climbing than day one and I thought 170 miles on the bike just biking like I knew I knew double marathon to be super hard I knew that too but day two just couldn't, I guess I just couldn't picture what it was going to be like. And since it was just riding and not that hilly, I thought I totally overlooked that day. And that was the day that absolutely crushed me. Right. And, uh, yeah, I mean, it's windy and there, there's not a lot of like long climbs, but there's all this, all these rollers, you know,

and when you got a headwind that starts to beat you up and when you got a headwind and you can't see anybody in front of you or behind you then you start you know that's when the head games start yeah i mean i had no idea it was it's that was it i mean i i always tell people it's you have to constantly remind yourself that you're in a race because you don't see anyone and the roads are open so you're like oh i'm just on this ride what am i doing and you're in a freaking race yeah yeah for me the the first day bike was a lot harder i mean the first time i did it was a lot harder than i expected really i hadn't ridden it before but i drove it but when you're driving up the volcano it doesn't look like you're really climbing that much and i thought oh this will be you know i got to swim down no problem and this ride doesn't look all that bad. And I completely underestimated that stage because

that last 20 miles is so intense. So slow. I know you're going so, you feel like you're riding backwards. I remember one, what happened to me in 2009. I, um, and I didn't tell this story in the book, I don't think so. Um, I had all these buddies that were going to crew for me. Right. And, and then of course it's Thanksgiving weekend. And then they slowly realized like, uh, they're not going to be able to make it right. So like a week before Ultraman, I had no crew and I go, all right, well, I guess I'm going to have to, my wife and my two teenage boys who weren't even teenagers then are going to be my crew. Right. And they didn't, they don't know anything about triathlon or bikes or anything.

And, uh, not only that, they weren't arriving in Hawaii until like six o'clock the night before day one. So they missed the, the, um, the briefing, you know, where they go over the whole course and all the rules and all that kind of stuff. And they didn't know the big island. They didn't know anything, right? So they fly in and I sit them down in the condo and I was like, all right, don't say a word for two hours.

I'm going to tell you everything you need to know. And I'm literally panicked. I'm like, this is going to be an absolute disaster. So anyway, you know, we're out on the course. I got out of the swim first and I wrote a ride off and I'm in the lead and I'm just looking behind me the whole time, wondering when Ribeiro is going to like pass me. Right. I'm like, it's any minute now, you know, like, like there's no way I'm going to hold this lead for it. And I'm constantly looking behind me. I make it all the way to the, to, you know, I'm like a quarter of the way up the volcano climb and I haven't seen another athlete all day. And I'm telling my wife way to, you know, I'm like a quarter of the way up the volcano climb.

And I haven't seen another athlete all day. And I'm telling my wife, like, you know, what's my gap? Like, you know, what's the gap? And she doesn't even know what I'm talking about. She's like, I don't know. And then the photographer cars start pulling up, right, as you start getting close to the day. And it's like Rick Kent. They're taking pictures.

And I'm like, Rick, you know, like, how far back is the next guy? And, uh, you know, first it was five minutes, then it was one minute, then it was 10 minutes. Like I never got, I never, yeah, I got like, I got a different answer every time. So I'm just, you know, I'm like, I have all this anxiety. And finally I turn around and I see down the climb, there's a cyclist and I'm like, it's over, you know, like that, that glory moment that I thought I was going to have is being dashed. And every time I look behind, he's like 100 yards closer. Like this guy's gaining on me fast. But I can't tell who it is until he's like right on me.

And I'm like, all right, well, there's nothing I can do. I can't go any harder than four miles an hour or whatever it is. And I'm climbing up this hill. And he rides right up to me. And I don't recognize him. And he's like, Hey man, how's it going? Like he's all fresh. And I realized like this guy's not even in the race. He's some guy who just decided he wanted to go out and climb volcano that day. I mean, a decent cyclist, but he just started at the bottom of the hill and he's, and I'm like, dude, I'm in the middle of a race right now. And he's like, Oh, okay. Hey, I think you're doing pretty good. And he wants to like have

a conversation with me. And I'm like, listen, listen, man, like I don't, you know, I don't want to get like a drafting penalty. So you either need to like fall behind or pull way ahead. And he's like, oh, okay. And he like pulls ahead. And my wife and boys are in the crew car, like right ahead. And they're like, oh no, he's getting oh no he's getting past he's getting past and then he they were pulled over on the side of the road and then he pulls over and stops to talk to them and they're like what is that guy doing he's pulling because they think he's in the race and he's pulling over to talk to them but anyway you know i i was able to hold hold them off that day but but i remember how painful that day one climb is. It's just brutal. It is. I mean, it's such slow going and it is. It's such a, it's the head trip because it doesn't

look like you're climbing up a volcano. It looks like maybe a false flat and you're going nowhere. And so, and I think, I feel like it's very, very often into a headwind, that whole stretch. Oh, it was completely. And there's no escaping it because you're going one direction and so I was very glad that I had previewed that stage I expected it to be hard as heck but it was the second day that I yeah grossly underestimated yeah and how did you approach the run um the run I I definitely tried to pace myself I mean mean, I remember the other girls, I mean, I was looking at my watch and granted it was like slightly downhill in those

first few miles, but I was looking and thinking they're running three 30 marathon pace. This is ridiculous. So I consciously sort of held back to Kauai high, but then in Kauai high, that's stupid, like mile long uphill that takes you to the queen K, um, is my nemesis on the bike and apparently now running as well. I mean, that hell absolutely

sent me into a 20 mile. I kid you not like Valley. Like I was a mess for 20 miles. And so after that, it was pretty much just race management. I happened to come out of it. I remember when I could, when I could see like Hualalai and the four seasons, I had ridden that highway enough times that in my mind, Hualalai is near home. That's the thing.

That's the mental thing that happens for people that are familiar with the queen K and people that ride it all the time. When you've been running that long and you get to the four seasons, you think you're almost done. Yep. And you are so wrong. Yep. But it was like, it was good because it was a delusion, but I convinced myself of this and the whole world is better. But it was literally like 20 miles of hell that preceded that.

And, and I mean mean my pace actually changed drastically there and you you ended up killing it like the last section of that you just threw this major hammer down i literally had to run in the very very last like four miles i think i had to and i don't know because i wasn't wearing a garment but my pacers were and apparently i had to run like 7 30 per mile for the last four miles because someone was out there and told me that it was a very, very close margin between Shanna Armstrong, who'd won it seven times, and I for second place. I mean, Amber had first place in the bag,

but I had to basically crush it in the last four miles to come out overall ahead of Shanna. She was going to finish the double marathon ahead of me, but I had to run a certain pace in order to make up the time difference from the day before and all of that. So, so that's what I, that's what I did. And I, I mean, honestly, that, that pain that I experienced at the end of that race was because I had to do that was, was really sort of unparalleled in my, my personal experience. But just the fact that you were able to throw down that kind of pace at the end of that, I mean, that's extraordinary.

I mean, cause usually once it goes South, like you can't recover and get to the other side of that. So the fact that you were able to kind of pull yourself out of that, you know, sort of, um, you know, train wreck or whatever was going on and come out the other side and start, you know, killing it like you were. That's amazing. Well, I don't know. I just, I guess in part, it made me sort of question how I had paced the whole race in general. Cause I kind of thought I shouldn't have this left and maybe I should have gone harder there. Maybe i should have gone harder there maybe i should have gone harder there and i don't know that's that's why i want to i want to go back and see if i can do things

a little better you gotta go back you gotta you have to i'm gonna make you commit oh so i would like to well i mean my name is down for this year and i am planning on it and I reserve the right to change my mind until September September is September is my commit date all right everybody out there you're gonna have to tweet Hillary and put the hurt on her to commit to doing this but no I mean I would really love to do it I'm planning on it and um as long as I am i am still healthy and mentally fresh right in september then i absolutely want to but it's just not something that i you don't want to go into it kind of burned out yeah yeah and i felt like last time physically i was not sort of at my best and and i want i really want to do it like do it it right. So, yeah. Well, I mean, also it was your first, first just getting acquainted with what it's all

about in the course. And now, you know that and, you know, and you could sort of prepare better and, oh my God, you'd kill it. You got to go back. Yeah. I would, I would like to, I would like to. So we'll see. It's, it's, it's on the plan.

All right, cool. Well, um, we have to talk about nutrition. Yes. Yeah. We, it's our, we're already like an hour we have to talk about nutrition yes yeah we it's all we're already like an hour and 17 minutes into this and we haven't even talked about like the diet stuff i love it well this is this is what i love on your podcast because i listen to rich's podcast when i'm riding my bike when i don't have a training partner rich is my training partner and julie i'll keep that in mind i'll start giving you subliminal training messages.

And it's good because then I'll come home from my ride and make my normal Vega shake and then make carrot juice and blend it up with some kale because I know that's what they would do. So I'm always extra motivated to eat even better after I listen. So it's good. And before the podcast, I gave her a little bit of homemade kombucha that I listen. So it's good. And we just, before the podcast, I gave her a little bit of homemade kombucha that Julie made. It's pretty good, right?

It was unbelievable. I thought it was better than GT. Some flavor certainly was. It was, yeah. I think that one was, she put some grapefruit and mint. It was so sweet though. Yeah. I don't know.

That was interesting. It was pretty tasty. Yeah. So, all right. So would you consider yourself a plant-based athlete? Yeah. Where are you with like diet and nutrition and all that kind of stuff right now? I like plant-based.

I have issues with sort of calling myself a vegan. So I always say aspiring vegan because I feel like because like there was like some shredded cheese on my salad yesterday at ruby's diner god forbid um i was meeting my old swim coach for lunch and that's where we've met for the last like 18 years we've met always at ruby's diner he's 87 so i don't like to change like your high school coach i'm a club team what what club team golden west swim club huntington beach and um he's just one of my great mentors in sport and and so we always meet at ruby's diner but now there aren't a lot of options that i can get at ruby's diner so i feel very sort of uncomfortable using the

word vegan until i am like a hundred percent i mean you couldn't pay me enough to take a bite of like a chicken or cow or any animal for that matter but um like sometimes i have a little cheese or like i haven't gluten-free bagel that has made with eggs and so haven't fully arrived i aspire to fully arriving someday but that's that's where i am really well it's you know for it's not about you know sort, I think it's about, it's, it's, it's aspirational. And that's why I think the word plant-based is great. You know, you're plant-based. You're not, you know, it's not plant perfect. Right. So how does this begin? I mean, how long have you been kind of eating this way? Um, it's been four years now 2000 like the spring of 2009 i read the food revolution and

well i mean it wasn't entirely the book i had a couple of friends who were were had gone vegan because of that book and other sort of influences and after really spending enough time with them and then reading the literature i i mean i hadn't even finished the book and i was just like no i can't eat an animal again um i mean all that said when i was a teenager i was in the ecology club at school and we like sent letters like to the congressmen and stuff about animal rights and like environmental issues and and i was a vegetarian for a time like at that age so i always sort of and i remember getting my little sister like a membership to pita for christmas like that was like a thing i mean i was i was i've always sort of like had those leanings yeah attuned to this issue for a long time yeah and and but ultimately like as a teenager what got me back to eating a turkey sandwich was

that I was convinced by myself and my parents and whoever that I would swim faster if I ate meat. So that was ultimately why I, I went back to it. And so it was for me a decision four years ago because I wasn't entirely convinced that I could maintain my level of performance and, and take me meat out. And, but for me at that time, what it came down to was like, I was willing to sacrifice that, that, that if that's really what it cost me, it still wasn't worth it for me, like ethically to eat animals anymore. Right. So, and were you under, under Brett Sutton at this time? I had left, no, he would have flipped out. I was going to say, what did that conversation look like? No,

I was then on my own. So I was free to make that decision, but that wouldn't have gone over well in that program for sure. Um, I think that, um, that it's really common and I've battled with this mentally also, this idea of sacrificing performance to eat this way. And I think that in my own personal case, I've far exceeded anything that I ever thought I was capable of doing. And in my mind, it's attributable to eating this way. It's not like eating this way. If I hadn't started eating this way, I never would have embarked on this journey that led to all of this craziness anyway. So how could I possibly say that that was a hindrance?

It's certainly been a facilitator. But even then, in the back of my mind, it's like, well, I wonder if I had eaten a little bit of meat, would I have been better? Even though I read all these studies and I'm convinced that this has repaired my health and allows me to recover more quickly and train efficiently, there's still like that little like nugget of doubt because your whole life you're told, you know, you need to eat this to be strong and, and, and, and overcoming that even in the face of, you know, all this sort of evidence to the contrary is, is very difficult. So, and you're, this is your job, you know, all this sort of evidence to the contrary is very difficult.

So, and this is your job, you know, this is your profession. You're making a living off your performance. So to sort of take a flyer, I guess, so to speak, on this is a bold move. Yeah. And it was, you know, now really with these like last couple of races that we talked about at the beginning of this interview, I have one of the major sort of things that I proved to myself was I can be faster without animal products and it's, but it took me a long time to get it dialed. And I think, I think I would be even better if I was 100% vegan. I really do. It's just a matter of me having the discipline like socially and whatnot to say like, well, I'm just not eating or I'm like, I don't know because there's no options for me here.

Whatever it is, or, or spending more time pre-making foods that I don't get into that predicament. But, but it took me, I do think my performance suffered for probably two years at least. Um, while I was figuring things out. For sure. What do you, what do you think some of those learning curves were mistakes that you made? The huge, the big, huge thing. And this is why I say I wasn't at full strength at Ultraman end of 2010. So that was then almost two years into this project, was I've never loved meat, I think, because it's always sort of freaked me out where it came from. I mean, I never liked thinking about that I was eating an animal.

So I was never a huge meat eater, but I did eat a ton of dairy. So lunch would be like cottage cheese and yogurt. Or I mean, when I was living in Switzerland, I would have like half a liter of dairy so lunch would be like cottage cheese and yogurt or i mean when i was living in switzerland i would have like half a liter of milk every day um so i ate a ton of dairy products and when i cut that out i added in a whole lot more um you know bread products and you're eating like poor nutrient, uh, like nutrient poor, high carb foods, you know, sandwiches and muffins and whatever. Um, and I think I had gone from a very like low gluten diet previously. Um, mostly because Brett Sutton basically didn't allow me to eat bread. So

I wouldn't really eat it, but maybe once a week. And then I ate a lot of salad and meat and cottage cheese and yogurt. So when I cut that stuff out, I ended up eating a lot more bread products and got myself to a point by the middle of 2010 that, I mean, my body was, I got so over tired and that my, I mean, I got to the point where I could hardly run. I remember in the summer of 2010 being in training camp in Hawaii on the track, running 800s, could not run faster than like four minutes for a half mile. Couldn't do it. My legs, like my, everything was shutting down. I had insomnia. Like I was a complete mess.

Couldn't figure out. I mean, had like every test you could imagine. And figured out that I was like nutrient, you know, sort of vitamin and mineral, had all these vitamin and mineral deficiencies, but didn't know like what that was coming from. And fast forward all the way into 2011 was still, I went, went through, I remember the month before Ironman Brazil, I think I slept like only every second night. I mean, I was exhibiting all these sort of classic signs of overtraining, but yet I was looking at my program going, I know this is not too much. It was

something my body wasn't adapting. And, um,. And anyways, after all these tests and whatever, I ended up just on my own saying, well, heck, I'm just going to stop eating gluten and see what happens. And it was life-changing. Wow. So within about 10 days of stopping eating gluten, I could sleep again. And I would say it was about two months until I felt normal.

But one of the things I learned is that all these like fake meat products that I was eating are like made primarily of vital wheat gluten. Oh yeah, it's what makes them all stick together. Right, it's not just bread. It was, there was bread, but then there were all the fake meat things

that I was eating as a substitute. And those, so I was basically just my daily diet was like a festival of gluten, which was like poisoning me. Right, well's I'm glad that you figured that out so yeah it was a long process and so it wasn't the lack of animal products that was that was compromising my performance but it's all the other crap that I was adding in right and I think you know I've heard Brendan Brazier talk about this as well like when he was first playing around with a plant-based diet and I think that's a natural kind of inclination like okay i'm not eating dairy i'm not eating meat like what can i eat you start you start pigging out on all these high carb processed foods like pastas and and the

like lots of white breads processed you know processed wheat products and they're high in calories they're high in carbohydrates but They're high in carbohydrates, but there's no, there's nothing. You're not, you're not fortifying your body. You're not getting any nutrients out of that. So what happens is you have all the gluten, which in some people, in a lot of people, a lot of people that don't even know, like yourself produces an inflammatory response that impedes your body's ability to recover. You start to get tired. You feel like you're overtrained, even though your program's not any different than it ever has been. And your body's starving and you start to overeat because your body signals you to eat more and more

and more because it's, you may be getting all these calories, but it's not getting what it actually needs to heal itself and kind of fire on all cylinders. Exactly it's it was um it was it was bad yeah but now i mean and it would have been easy to just go well this plant-based eating is not working right like i gotta go back to eating dairy and meat right and i and believe me i heard that from everyone and their brother and i mean just kind of my standard response is, I mean, it's just been, if that's the price of not eating animals, that's the price. I mean, that's sort of, that's just, that's my thing. I just, I can't, I couldn't, even if, I mean, and for a long time I thought that was probably what was happening and everyone was right. And, and, and that was the price of, of not eating meat.

But, um, I had just made a decision that that was it. I like, this didn't seem right to me that, um, that, you know, we have, we have a puppy at home and the puppy is part of the family, but then that cow over there, that's dinner on my plate. Like it doesn't like, what's the difference? Like who decided that? Right. Like it just didn't, that doesn't make sense in my head anymore. Yeah, there's a disconnect there. We just had, I don't know if you listened, I just put up the other day an interview with Gene Bauer from Farm Sanctuary.

Oh, I need to listen to this. Do you know him? Have you ever met him? No. He's wonderful. He's a fantastic guy. And he's the first kind of animal rights activist person that I've had on the program. And he was great. I mean, you know, it's so, we talked about, I don't want to be repetitive

about what we talked about on the other show, but, you know, one of the things we talked about was that our system is set up to prevent us from making that emotional connection to the cow. Right. It's sort of like, yeah, we love our puppy, but, you know, we're, it's completely rigged so that we don't see all the kind of steps along the way from the cow, you know, what happens to the cow to bring it to your plate. Like we're insulated from that by, you know, there's a, there's a very intentional calculus that goes into maintaining that because otherwise, and as Gene aptly put, like we're all compassionate people. We all have that capacity. And if we were more connected to that and we could actually see what was going on, then I think a lot of people would make a

different choice, but we just don't see that. Or we make the choice not to because we know if we look at it, then it'll create like this dissonance right now we're living our life and that dissonance leads to anxiety and then you know all sorts of things can come from that right yep yep i mean i think you're you're absolutely right my mom and i were having this conversation last night about bacon how bacon is this like trendy thing now it's like well because of because of this whole paleo thing that's going on right now that's that what started it yeah i mean that's a big part of it my postwoman back home in tucson next to her little cubicle has a bacon calendar it's like it was this trendy like thing that i mean and all i can think about when people talk about bacon is this video i watched

recently of these like little piglets that aren't big enough for whatever standard they're being and they're just being thrown into this giant like trash can chopping thing and like I can all that's the only picture that comes in my head when people talk about bacon and I'm like I wish they could have this picture too when they're ordering bacon because that's all I can think about is that little piglet right it's such a tricky thing when you start talking about animal rights because every you you know, there's a lot of people that have an association in their mind with the angry animal rights activist person. And they don't want anything to do with that person. And so as soon as the subject gets raised, it's like, oh no, you know, here we go again, you know, or that idea of, you know, feeling like they're being attacked or that somebody is talking down to them or from high on top of pedestal or what have you. And I've been doing a lot of thinking about that.

And I think that, you know, and this is just my opinion, but, you know, when you see somebody who's an ardent animal rights activist and they are kind of angry, you know, it's like, I've been thinking about like, why, why are they so angry? Don't they know that if they approached people from a different, in a different way, that maybe it would be more beneficial to the message that they're trying to promote. Um, but I think that there are certain people that come out of the womb, like highly sensitive to these issues they're just wired that way from the moment they're born and they see the world that way like they they can see that injustice or that disconnect yeah and they're deeply emotionally affected by that for

whatever reason but the people around them aren't and so years and years and years of them seeing the world differently than other people becomes frustrating. And that frustration inevitably is going to turn into anger over time because people aren't seeing it the way they're seeing it. And they're trying to say, don't you see this? And people are like, no, you know, like get a life, get over it or whatever. And then of course you're going to get angry. Right. Right. That's so interesting. Yeah. whatever and then of course you're going to get angry right right that's so interesting yeah yeah i mean and i i i struggle with that too because it has started to sort of be so sort of glaringly obvious to me as well and and i i try to not not get angry and not sort of take that stand i mean stand in that way because i mean my family i mean i was raised in a family that's so completely the other way and and um and i and i so i i can see that other perspective and and i understand that it has to be like baby steps

to get people to to understand the consequences of what they're consuming. Yeah, I think it's changing because, you know, now sort of people's eyes are opening up to, you know, the things that Monsanto is doing and, you know, what's going on at these factory farms. And there are these documentaries that are kind of pulling the covers on what's happening. are these documentaries that are kind of pulling the covers on what's happening. And even if you're not an animal rights activist and you see the way that factory farmed animals are treated, you can even take away the idea of whether it's wrong or right or justified to eat animals, but just look at how they're treated in the factory farm context. And I think most people can kind of get on board with the idea

that there's something amiss with that. And, you know, my opinions and perspective on this continue to evolve. You know, I mean, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't start eating this way because, because of that sensitivity. I did it for extremely selfish reasons. You know, I did it for myself, for health. And, but it's impossible to you know as i continue to walk this path and i learn more and i read more and i watch documentaries and and the more i read and the more i see and the more people i talk to it's it's like no this is like a big thing like we got to talk about this right so and i didn't expect to kind of step into that perspective you know yeah and i don't and i certainly am not standing on any moral high ground with it whatsoever to kind of step into that perspective, you know? Yeah.

And I certainly am not standing on any moral high ground with it whatsoever. No, it's just people are open to listening and then that's great. Right. Well, you know, we'll see what happens. Yeah. All right. But like redirecting back to the, I'm going to get hate mail if I don't ask you like what you eat, what you eat and what you eat in training and what you eat on the bike. Like what do you put, what do you put in those bottles on your bike? Like, what are you eating now that

you seem to have figured it out? I mean, look, you know, you went through that issue. We didn't really kind of, you know, cap that story, but you just got back from Brazil. It was like your second fastest Ironman ever. Right. I mean, you were place wise, you've done better, but you know, your fastest Iron Man Brazil and like, I think your second fastest Iron Man, the only time you ever went faster was it. Yeah. And that's like a super fast course. Right. So, you know, it's obviously clicking for you now. So, you know, what is it, what is a typical day in food look like for you? Typical day in food would be, um, for breakfast in the morning. Well, we'll usually have like a pre-swim breakfast, which is coffee.

And then, um, some like gluten-free vegan toast with peanut butter on it, that kind of situation. And then after a swim workout, we'll get back and have like breakfast number two, which is typically something like gluten-free oats made with almond milk and cooked with bananas, dump a bunch of peanut butter and honey on those um and stir in some brown rice protein powder that's a key um that's that that's breakfast number two lunch is typically something like a i make corn quesadillas with dia which is my go-to and avocado like beans maybe something like that or a leftover from the night before his dinner which is typically like a quinoa or rice dish with vegetables dinner my husband usually does

like a big everything but the kitchen sink salad and yeah like a rice or quinoa dish if we get really fancy he makes us like homemade amazing gluten-free pizza we do like barbecue tofu pizza picture your barbecue chicken pizza but like homemade with tofu um or tempeh something like that that's that's a typical day when i'm training i eat a lot of nut bars like kind bars that kind of thing and What do you put in the bottles? In the bottles, I put sports drink, like there's Power Bar Perform. And in the race, I don't eat any solid foods. I take in just over 2,000 calories of liquid fuel on the bike,

just super concentrated sports drink, two bottles for one Ironman, roughly a thousand calories a bottle. And on the run, I'm just taking gels and maybe drinking some Coke. Right. Super simple. I can't chew and go hard at the same time. So, um, yeah, I mean, that's, that's pretty standard Ironman pro triathlete fair. Yep. Right. Yep. Um, you hear a lot about, you know, the, the guy who's like, Oh, I was doing great. And then, you know, 10 miles into the run, I started throwing up. Like, I don't know what happened. Right. You know, that's a real common story that you hear. I mean, what is your, without, obviously that's an individual thing. There's a million reasons why that could be happening. But if you had to pick like a general reason why that might be happening to a lot of people out there well that's funny i

have this happen all the time with you know athletes that we work with whatever that we're always we're troubleshooting things like that like this and there are a couple of things at play um that i always try to establish and one, does the athlete have an understanding of what is a normal level of stomach distress in endurance event? I mean, I honestly think that a certain amount of like vomiting or stomach cramping or whatever is normal. And I think it's something you have to deal with. cramping or whatever is normal. And I think it's something you have to deal with. And so I don't think it's a, I think that there are a lot of people who maybe come into this sport and think that the minute you start puking, your race is over. Well, I mean, I've seen videos of Natasha Badman, like projectile vomiting on Ali'i drive and winning the Hawaii Ironman. I feel like people

need to watch that, you know? Um, so I think that first I try to determine like, is it just a normal and manageable amount of vomit and like stomach problems or do we have a legit issue? Um, and if it's a legit issue, well, it could be any number of things. I think that people, people under fuel and people, I mean, that may not cause vomiting, but people very uncommonly over fuel, but perhaps, perhaps over fuel because they've under fueled the first half of the race and then their body rejects it or don't practice their race fueling either the products they use in the race or the amount they're going to try to take in in the race um i see that more so with women who are sort of watching calories um trying to almost trying to diet during their training and then right say they want to take in 300 calories an hour that's not going to fly of course you're going to be puking right right because you haven't

been doing it in training right you're trying to lose weight on the bike as opposed to training responsibly, fueling responsibly during training. Exactly. So I see that. And then sometimes I just see what I consider to be people making the wrong choices and what kind of fuel they're using, and that'll make people sick. I mean, I think I have a theory. I'm interested in what you think about this. When I look at somebody like yourself or other successful professional triathletes,

professional Ironman, when you're racing, you are basically at an output level that is far in excess of what the typical amateur Ironman athlete is putting out. Not just in terms of watts, but in terms of how close you are to

your, um, anaerobic threshold. So you are in an anaerobic state for a much longer period of time. The average, the average, you know, sort of, um, Ironman who's doing his first or third or second one, but it's not like contending is going to be much more in an aerobic, like zone two, high zone to low zone three state for most of that day. And they're out there for many more hours than you are. I mean, you guys are absolutely pinning it. You're trying to find that, that like razor's edge of what you're going to be able to sustain for nine hours. Yeah.

Right. So that requires a different kind of fueling approach than somebody who's going to be in their kind of more fat burning state throughout the day. So somebody who is in a more fat burning state, if they're just hammering gels all day and all this sugar, they're confusing their body because their body actually would be much more efficiently running on a different kind of fuel. And when you're putting all that glycogen in there, that's what you do when you want to be in that anaerobic state,

when you're burning glycogen at a high level. And I think that that sometimes can lead to some of those issues. Yeah, no, that's a good point. Absolutely. That is a good point. Because people will say, well, they want to know what you're eating, but it doesn't necessarily apply. It's not relevant if you're doing 16 hours. Yeah, I get that. I totally get that. And, I mean, to be fair, when I did my first Ironman in 12 and a half hours, I was eating PB&Js.

Right. Yeah, and if you're a 12-hour, 14-hour Ironman, yeah, then maybe you're at a pace where actually eating real food during the race might work. But when you're pinning it like you, you're not going to be able to digest that kind of thing. You have to be liquid and gel all day. Right, right, yeah. You wouldn't be able to. I mean, can you imagine eating a sandwich? No, but some pros do eat bars on the bike.

For me, it's simply a matter of I have enough breathing issues. I have asthma, and my nose is perpetually not all clear. So I can't chew and breathe. So I just can't do it. But forget about digestion. I just can't. I don't have time to chew it up. I don't know.

Some pros can actually chew things, which is. But it is. It's more of a bar. It's not like a sandwich. Right. But I think the real takeaway is you have to take responsibility. Every athlete has to take responsibility for what that looks like for them. And you have to use your training to figure that out.

Like, you know, how many years did it take you to figure out, you know, what exactly you needed to put in those bottles and how frequently you needed to take a hit off it, you know, and you figured that out over years of training and racing, right? Yeah. Like six or seven years. And that's self-experimentation. That's not like, Hey, so-and-so is doing that. So I'm going to try that. Right. You know, you got to own it for yourself. I think. Absolutely. Yeah. It is. It's individual and there's a lot of experimentation involved.

Right. For sure. All right. We got to wrap this up. What time is it? Oh my God. We've gone like an hour and 45 minutes here.'m gonna break a record um all right well what's what's next for you next up is iron man austria which is in two holy cow it's in two and a half weeks two and a half weeks not long right that's pretty soon that's quite a so how many weeks from brazil will that be that'll be four weeks four weeks after brazil yep so what does your training look like right now training looks like it's pretty big we're cramming in yeah it's a couple of i had two pretty easy weeks after brazil or a week and a half pretty easy i should say um so basically a week and a

half easy two big weeks and then we'll rest a couple days before before the race. So it's, I've got, I've got 20 plus miles on the track tomorrow morning, so that'll be special. All right. Well, good. Well, uh, and then what, and what's after that? You don't know yet. Um, Ironman Lake Placid, which will be four weeks after that. Oh, okay. Yep. God dang girl. All right. Well, I'm going to let you go so you can get back down home. But thanks so much. Thank you. Thank you for having me.

I'm so honored. No, this is super awesome. People are going to dig it. Thank you. For people that want to connect with Hillary and find out more about what she's doing, you can go to your website, HillaryBiskay.com. Two L's, right? B-I-S-C-A-Y dot com and you're hillary biscay on twitter and if you want

to check out her killer swag her tri kits and her uh attire go to smashfestqueen.com right yes thank you and is there any any other places where you want people to connect with what you're up to you got to read her blog. Yes, I guess that's my blog is my big project. It's been a bit rough the past few months with the new clothing business on tap, but I try to keep it updated. All right, cool. All right, I think we're done.

Thank you. How do you feel? Good. Did we talk enough about anything else you want to talk about? We're good. All right, I feel pretty good. You're sweaty. Yeah, it's hot in here.

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