The Rich Roll Podcast - How A Fruitarian Diet Turned One Man Into Superman

Episode Date: April 17, 2013

Today on the podcast I am very pleased to host ultra-running legend Michael Arnstein, aka “The Fruitarian”. Why the nickname? because this guy is killing it on foot at distances from 26.2 all the way to 100 miles and beyond, powered almost entirely by raw fruit. How is that even possible? I thought I was extreme. Tune in and find out. Beyond his amazing accomplishments on foot, Michael was also on-site at the Bostin marathon finish line. His first-hand account of this unspeakable horror is reason enough to give the show a listen during this melancholy and difficult time. Thanks for listening! Rich

Welcome to the Rich Roll Podcast, Episode 26 with Michael Arnstein. The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey everybody, welcome back to the podcast. My name is Rich Roll. Who am I? If you're new to the show, I am an ultra distance triathlete, triathlete, triathlete, blah, blah, blah. I am the best selling author of a book called Finding Ultra, which comes out in paperback May 21st. I am a public speaker, motivational speaker, a very passionate advocate on behalf of plant-based nutrition and holistic lifestyle.

I guess you could call me a holistic lifestyle entrepreneur, although even I am not really sure what that means. I'm a recovering attorney. I'm a family guy. And hey, now I'm a really sure what that means. I'm a recovering attorney. I'm a family guy. And hey, now I'm a podcaster. I started this podcast back in December with a singular goal, which is to share with you the people and the personalities that I've met along this journey to wellness and to be able to bring them to you to inspire and educate you to help you be more self-empowered about your health, your health choices and fitness. So I've had world-class

athletes on, I've had entrepreneurs, I've had nutritionists, I've had doctors, I've had every man athletes and all sorts of different kinds of people. This is not a triathlon training podcast. There are plenty of other podcasts out there like that. This is more a long-form conversational interview-style show, and the topics are varied. Every guest brings something different and special to the equation. And I hope you've been enjoying it.

It's been really fun to do. I love it. If it was up to me, I'd do one every day. I'm having so much fun doing it. And I'm in New York City right now. And actually with a very heavy heart, now and actually with a very heavy heart. Today is the day after the explosions at the Boston Marathon yesterday. I had the sort of unique, what would you call it, unique experience of being at the CNN headquarters in New York when the story broke.

My plan was to interview Ronnie Selig, who is the executive vice president and director of the health, wellness, and medical unit over at CNN. Essentially, she's Sanjay Gupta's boss, and she's also an amazing triathlete and a mom. And my plan was to sit down with her and chat about how she balances triathlon with her very busy life and her incredibly demanding job. And as we were sitting in her office, kind of just catching up, the story broke. All of these journalists have televisions in their office and

it just flashed on the screen what had occurred. And, and I was able to sit there and kind of watch how a major news organization jumps into action, uh, and responds to these sorts of things. And it was a privilege to be able to kind of observe, um, what goes down. It was very much like a scene out of that HBO show Newsroom. It was remarkable. But needless to say, Ronnie had to focus on the task at hand and we were not able to do the podcast. And it seems even weird to me to be bringing an interview to you today to talk about anything other than what transpired yesterday. I'm absolutely at a loss for words. Just a horrific, horrific event. The implications of which I think will be heard and experienced by all of us for quite some time.

And my guest today, Michael Arnstein, we get into it a little bit. He happened to be there. Him and his wife ran the race yesterday and were proximate to the finish line when it occurred. And he's going to tell you a little bit about what it was like to be there and what his firsthand experience was like. And again, it was weird to kind of talk about other issues. I mean, he's a highly anticipated guest for the show.

There's been a lot of interest in me having him on, and I had not met him before. But he's an amazing guy. But we kind of had to speak about that a little bit and get into the stuff that people want to hear about his fruitarian diet and how he competes at a very elite level in marathons and in ultra distance runs, particularly 100 mile races. But I will say that I am devastated. I have a lot of swirling emotions about what occurred. It's just unfathomable that somebody would purposely do what they did at an event that is meant to be purely celebratory, a celebration of healthy lifestyle and fitness. It's devastating, to say the least.

I had plenty of friends that were running yesterday. And, uh, as far as I can tell everybody that, that I know is safe, but of course that's not the case for everyone. And my heart goes out to you. My thoughts and prayers are with everybody, uh, who suffered a loss, uh, or was injured or affected in any way by what happened. And I'm worried and concerned about how this is going to affect future races. I can't imagine what it's going to be like at the New York Marathon in November, the crackdown, and again, this sort of perpetration of this fear-based kind of mentality in society that we're living in. And it's upsetting.

It's very upsetting. So my thoughts and my prayers are out to all of you on this tragic, tragic day. To shift gears, however, today I have the quite impressive and very inspiring Michael Arnstein. He is a guy who has taken a vegan diet to another level, very extreme. He is what you would call a fruitarian, which essentially means that his diet is composed predominantly of raw fruit and raw vegetables, but I think predominantly fruit. And he's going

to tell you his story about his journey towards this way of eating and this way of living and how it's impacted his racing, how it's impacted him mentally and spiritually. And it's quite fascinating. And it makes me inspired to continue to improve my routine and to experiment with what i'm doing i i think you can't help if you listen to the interview you can't help but think i wonder what it would feel like to to eat that way he's such a passionate evangelist of it and he's living proof i mean he's no mere everyman runner. The guy went from running the marathon at 2 hours and 42 minutes, which of course is quite quick and nothing to shake a stick at, and once he changed his diet to this fruitarian regimen,

he got his marathon time down to 2.28, which is blazing fast. got his marathon time down to 228, which is blazing fast. Uh, not to mention the fact that he's considered one of the top 100 mile racers in the country, if not the world. So he's an interesting guy. I've been following him online for some time, uh, but had never crossed paths with him in person. So it was a pleasure and an honor to meet him. And I got to meet his wife and his daughter who were also in his office in Midtown Manhattan. They had just returned from Boston. Michael was still wearing the shirt that he wore during the race. He hadn't even had a chance to shower or change. They got out of Boston. They drove back to New York. He caught a couple hours of sleep and he lives north of Manhattan

and then he ran into his office in the morning. He's a busy guy and our time was somewhat limited and I feel like this interview barely scratched the surface of what this guy has to offer. And there were so many things that I wanted to ask him about that we just didn't have time to get into, but I have a feeling that I'm going to be seeing more of him. And so I would urge you to consider this as just the first installment in what I hope to be a number of

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That's it. Let's get into the show. Really excited to bring to you today the fabulous and inspiring Michael Arnstein. All right, I'm ready to rock. That's way better. All right, Michael Arnstein in the house. All right, dude.

Nice to meet you, man. I'm here. Thanks for inviting me up to your lair, your business lair. Thanks. It's more like a museum to incredible running accomplishments. Yeah, my wife likes to call it the ridiculous shrine to Michael Arnstein. Yeah, the walls are pretty layered with awards. It's impressive. It inspires me, though.

It's impressive. You'll let me take a few pictures that I can put up on the blog of your yeah sure metal hall it speaks loudly but uh it's awesome man and i've been waiting to uh i've been anxious to meet you for a long time so it's a real honor and a pleasure and thanks for taking the time um for uh people that are just tuning in it's's the day after the Boston Marathon, and Michael and his wife, Victoria, ran the race yesterday. And from what I understand, you were running with your wife, and you finished not that long before the first explosion. Is that correct? correct? Yeah, my wife was running her first Boston Marathon, and she's, you know, very supportive of what I'm doing, but for a long time, she's kind of wanted to experience some of the, you know, the wonderful things that I'm able to experience. So, because she did qualify after trying for a number of years, I decided that I would run with her during the event, so we could kind of really

enjoy the experience together. So, normally, I'd know way up front finishing uh you know a lot sooner not have been anywhere near this kind of experience at the four and a half hour mark um but we were we were right in the mix i mean it went the bomb went off uh less than 10 minutes after we crossed the finish line and um we were we were very close wow so can you just describe a little bit about what the scene was like uh the chaos and and what it felt like to be right in the middle of all that we were obviously really happy to be done with the uh the run uh my wife was struggling quite a bit she hadn't trained as well as she could have for the uh for the race because she had some she had some nagging issues uh and and she she really pushed to get to get through uh and she wasn't able to

really walk that well so we we didn't get too far from the finish line uh in 10 minutes so when the bomb went off it was like it was just surreal i i mean i don't know if anybody listening has ever been in around like a real explosion but it just goes right through you you know it's like there's this shock wave and a blast and and uh you're stunned you know and you and we turned around saw this huge mushroom cloud and then within a few seconds another bomb went off and then it then you just have this like instinctual reaction of of you know fight or flight and and uh my wife's reaction was flight yeah and understandably you know, fight or flight. And my wife's reaction was flight. Yeah, understandably.

And that was everybody else's reaction. And we didn't know if another bomb was going to go off in any second, so it was pretty scary for a good 10 minutes. Right, and so you just skid-daddled out of there, just tried to get as far away from the scene as possible? Yeah, we just hopped over the barrier, which is pretty remarkable because walking fast wasn't really an option just prior to the explosions. And then I said, we just got to get away from the crowds. And we ran down an alleyway

and kind of hid in an alcove for about a half an hour until we kind of felt like things were safer. And then we got out of there oh my god i mean you know just watching the footage on television you know i i saw it was sort of on repeat on cnn you see the first one i think it was the first one go off and there's a guy in the middle of the road who just gets blown over it doesn't i don't think he was hit by anything but just the sound wave you know the shock wave just knocked him to the ground and you know you know, it's, it's impossible to even wrap your brain around, you know, how devastating this is and what the impact is going to be on future events. And it's just so awful and tragic that an event that is all about celebrating a healthy lifestyle and

is triumphant for so many people had to turn so dark. Yep, I couldn't agree more. I mean, what were your emotions coming home? Did you fly back to New York last night? We drove up. You drove up. And I've got a lot of mixed emotions, to be honest, about the situation. Obviously, anger is something that would be pretty acceptable in this kind of situation, and that's really where I'm at.

I'm angry. I'm angry for what's going to happen with the insurance companies now with big events what's going to happen with police unions and and and you know bloated security budgets for that are in my opinion pretty ineffective um and and and and basically uh the culture of fear and people being manipulated in living in a way that's not very functional. And a lot of it's wrapped around fear. And being an ultra runner, the only thing that you really want to fear is fear itself. Having confidence in yourself and your ability to get through adversity is what makes success in sport and even in diet. And my overwhelming feeling after being in that experience is, give me bib number one next year, I will be the first person on the starting line and I will run all the way to Boston with no fear. and I will run all the way to Boston with no fear. And the people that are trying to push us back and have us hide out and not congregate in crowds and just be in fear

is something that I want to fight to the death. Right. I mean, we do live in a culture of fear, and it seems to be getting worse and worse and, you know, media doesn't help and it foments all of these emotions and it imprisons us, you know, and there's some, you know, the, the unseeing system that likes us, you know, afraid and cowering and it's tragic really. And the truth of the matter is you can't police 26.2 miles.

If somebody wants to do something, you know, they're going to be able to do that, whether they get away with it or not is a different matter. But, you know, you have a choice as a human being on what you're going to focus on, you know. And it would be very easy and convenient to focus on this and put a lot of energy into it. But I think there's a better path. Much agreed. Yeah. So, you know, I think we're all struggling with it right now. It's so fresh. It's hard to have any perspective on anything that's happening. I mean, it just happened. And I was actually in, I was in the CNN headquarters right off the newsroom when it happened. And I was going to interview Ronnie Selig for the podcast. She's the director of the health unit.

She's like, you know, basically pulls all the strings. She's like Sanjay Gupta's boss. I was sitting with her in her office. And, you know, they all have TVs on in their office. And right when it happened, and I watched her, like, jump into motion and start manning the phones and trying to figure out how, you know, how they were going to cover this. And it was quite amazing to see how a major news organization manages a breaking story like this.

It was incredible. But yeah, I mean, there's so much to be told still on this. And it feels weird to, you know, there's been a lot of people emailing me and tweeting me saying, when are you going to have Michael on the show? And a lot of excitement about us sitting down and talking about diet and running and the like. And I want to do all that, but it also feels weird emotionally to, you know, kind of talk about anything but Boston right now.

But I suppose we're going to have to do it anyway. Yeah, I agree. It's tough to kind of focus on anything with such a horrific event taking place. I like to think that the message here is trying to look at how we live, whether how we associate our lives with certain foods that don't do well things for us or whether our lifestyle choices with how we exercise or the lack of. I think we've got to focus on not living in fear, looking for better ways to do things and,

and never given up, you know, constantly trying to evolve towards sustainability. Yeah. And I think there's a lot in common, sort of this metaphor of food and fear in the sense that, you know, both you and I have made certain choices

in our life about what to put in our body. And we both feel strongly about that and love to evangelize on some level, I suppose. And similarly, you know, you have a choice about what you put down your throat, right? And you have a choice about what kind of information you want to let in and affect your emotional body. And that goes to fear. Are you going to live in fear? Are you going to live in faith? Are you going to put foods into your body that don't serve you? Are you going to put foods into your body that elevate you and have a higher vibration?

Yep. So, and I think it always comes down to personal responsibility, really. It's about, you know, taking a stand for yourself and, you know, having enough self-respect to treat your body in a more positive way. And I think it extends to emotions. I mean, we were talking a little bit about before we were recording, you know, just about food and how everyone, you know, sort of wants to focus on the diet. And obviously, you're somebody who, who you know has chosen a particular diet

a fruitarian diet and that raises a lot of eyebrows with people and you've performed amazingly well and your results speak for themselves but also you know sensing a frustration from you that people want to just that's who you are you're the you're the fruit guy you know and and how do you sort of penetrate beyond that and get people to understand that it's more about the food? You know, it's sort of where is this food journey going to take you? And what is it going to unlock inside you? And how are you going to express this new vibration that comes with a different way of eating and living? I mean, can you speak to that a little bit?

Yeah, I think I kind of gave myself a trade name to kind of carve out a niche in trying to gain some type of attention focus. And fruit is definitely that focus. But I like to think that what I'm trying to do is get people to kind of not just think about fruit, but try and get them to think more on their own two feet. Try to use more intuition, instinctual thought over necessarily what they're being told to believe. over necessarily what they're being told to believe. And diet is a huge thing in people's lives that I believe is heavily influenced by unnatural forces that really don't have the best interest for that individual. So I like to think that when I kind when I, um, kind of threw out all the traditional thoughts about diet and kind of started listening more intuitively to, to, to my own, you know, instinctual thought processes, I saw a huge change obviously in my diet, but, but it also,

it also went well over into every other aspect of my life. But, you know, how I thought about running my business, how I tried to develop or improve relationships with my wife, my kids, and even friends and family. So although the focus is, you know, change your diet, think about food differently, I like to think that I'm trying to get people to start thinking differently all the way around. And diet is one place to start that. And that's my focus. Right. Well, food is something we all share and we all have to eat. And it's a starting point. You know, I always look at it like it's the first step on a journey that will eventually and

hopefully take you to, you know, different places, spiritually, emotionally, mentally, etc. And, you know, I think it's important. messages about nutrition, at least from mainstream culture, are so deeply ingrained and embedded in our awareness from the time we're little kids, we're taught, you know, milk does a body good, or, you know, you need steak for protein and all these things. And kind of overcoming those notions, you know, I'm realizing the longer I kind of, you know, walk this path, just how difficult it is to get people to shift their perspective and even just question the status quo about it. Yeah, I agree. And I also think a lot of people don't add into the equation of diet is, you know, I'm not just in how is this food going to potentially affect me on a physical, on a health level,

but where's the discussion about food being sustainable and morally, ethically part of the greater world that we live in and the world that's going to be created tomorrow? um so you know i'm i'm constantly hearing people challenge uh the way that i i'm eating as a on a nutritional level um but i i rarely hear or don't hear enough about those those moral um and environmental issues so you know even if somebody came out and proved with with without a doubt that um eating red meat or or or you know chicken or fish was just like the best thing ever and if you ate it you'd you'd you know live better or longer be able to perform at a higher level if that came at a cost of uh of just you know terrible social uh irresponsibility uh or on a level where there's just tremendous suffering on the part of

those other creatures that we share this world with, then I don't think it's worth it to eat that way, even if it might make you run or jump more or higher or live longer. And I think that's something that people just don't focus on enough. Absolutely. I mean, I share that

completely. And I've said it before. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I share that completely. And I've said it before. If somebody said, oh, you could, you know, if I could prove to you that your performance would increase if you ate this or that, I wouldn't change. I have made a choice to not participate in that system. And I don't take any higher moral ground than anybody else. And I'm not preaching to anybody. And I'm not trying to say that anybody else is doing anything wrong. I just am choosing for myself and what seems to resonate

best for me to, you know, to avoid those products and to try to eat more sustainably. And I think we do need to think about that more. You know, I think that, you know, it's impossible. I mean, there is a zeitgeist happening and there is a, there is a lot of momentum behind these ideas, you know, when movies like food and come out and, and people really are thinking about these issues in a way they never have before. But I also think that there's a long way to go. I mean, all you have to do is kind of go through airports or, you know, you know, when you travel, you see, you know, it's easy when living in Los Angeles, uh, to eat the way that I eat, but I become increasingly aware of the difficulties and the challenges ahead when I leave town. So let's get into fruitarianism.

This is amazing to me. You know, I thought that I ate really well, and you've really taken ultra running and the vegan diet to another level completely, and it fascinates me. So you basically, why don't you just break down for the audience who might not be familiar with what that term means and kind of take us through what a typical day in your life of food is like. your life of food is like. Sure. I'll try to talk a little fast, try to squeeze it all in for people that don't know my history or what fruitarianism is for me. My kind of path, I like to say, started when I was about 16 years old. I'd say pretty much, it's been almost a 20 year journey at this point. When I was in high school, I decided that I wanted to try to improve my running, and the magazines at that time talked more about, you know, stop with the red meat or the fried foods, and that's pretty much what I did for a while. I wouldn't eat burgers, and I eventually cut out fried foods and never really made it kind of like my identity, but I'd say that it was becoming more of a focus in me

to do everything I could to improve. My impetus was I wanted to, you know, win. That really was why I was making the dietary choices. As I got older, I got out of high school and I moved out west. I grew up in New Jersey and I moved out to New Mexico. I kind of got more into the natural, you know, holistic thing and living in Santa Fe, New Mexico. And I started to get more into the spiritual side of not eating animal products. And then I started cutting out what I thought was unhealthy foods at the time each year. On New Year's, every year I would say, okay, well, I'm, I'm going to give up a chicken. And then, then the following year I said, well, I'm going to give up on cheese. And then eventually I said, I'm going to give up on,

on eggs. And then the next year it was anything made with eggs or had egg products in it. And, and then it was a dairy. And, and by the time I think I was about 25 or 26, I was, and and by the time i think i was about 25 or 26 i was i was pretty hardcore vegan um and i did try raw food i think when i was about 27 for about three months i read like a david wolf book and i started eating lots of avocados and nuts and seeds really high fat uh i did that for about two months and i did lose weight. I did not feel good. Even though I was trying to convince myself that I was feeling better, I really wasn't feeling great eating those kind of foods, and it wasn't long before I kind of gave up on it,

went back to kind of the cooked whole foods, macrobiotic diet. And I continued to perform at a reasonably high level in marathons, triathlons. I did the Ironman in Hawaii. And then got a little bit out of shape when I had kids. And then worked maybe too many hours and kind of had a little bit of a midlife crisis when I was in my late 20s. And decided that I wanted to go back into running more, maybe try to go back to the Ironman in Hawaii. And I started reading more books on continuing to improve my diet, although I really felt like I kind of had it dialed in. I was still reading supplement reviews

and I spent quite a bit of money at the vitamin shop, but never really saw any type of improvements, the vitamin shop, but never really saw any type of improvements, anything really substantial. And then I did read a book by Dr. Doug Graham called 80-10-10 at my wife's insisting, which advocated a raw food diet, but a very low-fat diet, which was very different from anything that I'd ever considered before. I thought the other recipes in the book were quite comical, because for breakfast, I think it would say, it said like, you know, six bananas, peel them and enjoy. And for lunch, it was, you know, strawberries and papaya, cut them up in a bowl, you know, and enjoy. And, you know, for dinner, it was lettuce and, you know, big salad and enjoy. You know, it's like, this is nuts. No

one can eat this way. You know, you're just going to eat raw fruits and vegetables. And, and of course, like a good, uh, you know, obsessive compulsive, uh, runner and athlete, I'd said, oh, I'm going to give this a try. It sounds nuts. And I, and I, I tried it and, um, and I ended up losing quite a bit of weight and I knew weight was a big issue and really performing at a high at the highest level um and the rest is kind of history I I dramatically improved my running times uh qualified for the Hawaiian Ironman again right so just to put it in perspective I think you were like a 242 245 I'd run the marathon at that point in my life in my late 20s probably 30 times. And I'd always run somewhere between 245 and 250 when I was training reasonably hard. And I was convinced there was just no way I could run much faster than 245.

But I knew if I ever was going to run faster, I had to lose body fat. Um, and then, but I knew if I ever was going to run faster, I had to lose body fat. And, uh, and I, I, I started eating nothing but raw fruits and vegetables, mostly fruit. And, um, I think, I think in about six weeks I went from, uh, a 240, I had an initial PR, went down to 242. And then I went down to 234. It was like ink. I mean, that's, uh, for six weeks. Yeah.

For somebody that knows about running. For a seasoned marathoner, that's a huge time improvement. I mean, that's going from, you know, running like 615 pace to down to, you know, like under six-minute miles for a marathon, which is entirely new gear. It's just. And the training was the same. So you didn't alter anything in the training. I was still, I was at that time I was running by 85 miles a week. It was, it's purely body weight and it made sense to me. I said, it's physics. I, I, you know, I went from 130 pounds to 120 pounds and, uh, and I could cool better. I was always hydrated and,

uh, it was just easier to run, just easy to run fast. I subsequently ran many, many marathons in the low 230s, and I really wanted to break that 230 barrier. That was tough. I had to bump up the training and put a little more dedication into working really hard towards that goal, but I definitely kind of give credit to improving my diet drastically to breaking that 230, which I did at the Boston Marathon, I think in 2009 when I ran a 228. 228, right. That was incredible. That is blazing.

Yeah. It's blazing fast. And so when you ran 228, how long was that then that you had been on the fruitarian diet? I think it diet about like two two and a half years or something like that right but to get to the 235 was literally six weeks yeah yeah yeah and so aside from aside from the the dropping the weight uh you know what are the other sort of indications that led you to believe that this was suitable for you like on daily basis, like how did you feel in training and what are you eating when you're training and how are you recovering and, you know, are you getting sick and run down and

all of that? I saw a really big difference in my mental focus, clarity. I just, you know, my mind was just really sharp. I can, you know, remember being at meetings with at work prior to changing my diet and i just you know i have that brain fog or like you know you just like oh man maybe i should start drinking coffee again you know i'm just not able to stay on you know task with everybody and and after i changed the diet and i was just eating mostly uh fruit i i, I was so with it. It was just, I was three steps ahead of everything in my mind. And it just, it was a huge part of why I continue to stay on the diet is the mental

clarity. So that's a really big thing. And then there are all kinds of physiological changes that happen that were just really dramatic. I never had dry skin again. Weird stuff like earwax. Just, I just, you know, I put a Q-tip in my my ear after take a shower and there'd be like no wax in my ear and i'm like is this even normal uh there there there was uh i had fungus on my toenails that just went away and all of a sudden my toenails looked real nice um i i never had uh mucus in my throat it wouldn't wake up in the morning i thought it was normal to like get in the shower every morning just like kind of like you know clear throat and cough up some big yellow snot ball. And that was gone.

Didn't even have a lot of, you know, mucus in my nose almost ever. I got to really look at a list because. How about the beautifully floral bowel movements? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, going to the bathroom was just. I mean, it was, you know, without getting into too much detail, I mean, it takes me longer to urinate than to go to the bathroom the other way. It just slides right out.

Yeah, I just, there's the, I've got to look at my list because there's so many things that have changed that I've just forgotten about. Yeah, like crust in your eyes. You know, like every morning you'd wake up and, you know, you'd have that little crust ball in your eyes and everybody does that right that's normal well i never have crust in my eyes in the morning when i wake up uh what else is there i you know my sense of smell got really heightened um i got uh i never really had uh any injuries after i changed my diet i think that has a lot to do with you know being hydrated all the time. Because of the water content. Yeah, high water content.

You never get a cold. I mean, I can't get sick. It's incredible. Incredible. It's amazing. It's amazing. It is. It's incredible.

And I'm like, I'm not selling anything. You're not financially invested in anybody doing this or not. Not at all. Right? You're just a guy who went from 242 to 228 in your marathon, and you feel great. Yeah. I'm just saying, like, I got to pinch myself. I don't know what the hell is going on.

I just started eating raw fruits and vegetables, mostly fruit, and, like, I became, like, Superman. I mean, I was a regular regular like, you know, pretty good runner in like, you know, my local community. And like then a couple of years ago, I was the fifth American finisher in the New York City Marathon. Like that doesn't happen. It's insane. How old are you now? I'm 36. Right. So you look like you're 24. And and and also for the listener out there, I mean, you know, the marathon are are kind of a

benchmark it makes it's easy for people to understand what those mean but but really where you excel is in the ultra running and in these hundred mile distances where you're you're in the absolute elite category so so when did you start getting into ultra running and and and how has um you know how has that kind of evolved over the last couple years i mean i can't even keep track of all your top finishes it's like it's too much work for me when i when i got into the the marathon running and i and i eventually hit that sub 230 i i kind of said well maybe i should run and try to run 224 and i think i could run 224 on a faster course and perfect weather and i said you know i i you know, I'm really, the sub 230 was what I wanted.

I did that a couple times, and now I wanted to move into a new challenge. And then the ultra running was like, wow, that's tough. You know, I've done the Ironman. That's a tough, that's an ultra. But, like, wow, could you imagine a 100-mile run? Like, that's, like, incredible just to wrap my brain around that. And I really, really got into that challenge. I started running the ultras.

Every single year that I've been on this diet, I have improved in performance, which I think is important to note. I most recently ran the eighth fastest American time ever at the 100-mile distance, 12 hours, 57 minutes. I did that in December 2012, which is 7.45 per mile average for 100 miles. That's absolutely insane. And I ran the last marathon just at three hours. That is amazing. So I'm running, I'm at mile 78 and I'm running 6.30s

and I'm feeling good. Not only that, it sounds like, I mean, most people will, will run a hundred miler, you know, they'll peak for it and they'll do maybe one a year or two a year. And it seems like you're racing, like you're, you're doing your, how many, how many hundreds have you done in like the last 12, 18 months? Yeah. I mean, the recovery obviously is, is just second to none eating this way. And I've proven that. And I can stand tall and say it's true because I raced, I think, 1,400 miles in 2012. Basically, every weekend I was doing an ultra, a marathon, and not just doing it.

You know, kicking ass, winning, top three, doing really well. And the only reason I wouldn't race more is because I've got three kids and a wife and, you know, I've got a business to run, but I just love to get out there and just go. And after a 100-mile run, I literally, within, you know, 24 to 36 hours, I don't feel like I run 100 miles. And I've proven it. I ran Leadville, and then proved it. I ran Leadville. And then two days later, I ran a 239 marathon and won it.

Wow. And I could have run faster, but I didn't need to because I was winning. Tell people who might not know what Leadville is. Leadville is considered a quite difficult 100-mile race at altitude in Colorado. It's a trail race. Very high altitude. And I finished as high as fourth place there under 18 hours. called a hundred mile race at altitude in Colorado. It's a trail race, very high altitude. And, um, I've finished as high as fourth place there under 18 hours. Um, and then, and then, you know,

within days, um, uh, I feel like I'm ready to go. Ready to rock. But come on, this is preposterous, right? Yeah, right? Like, where are you getting your protein? Come on. Yeah, where am I getting my protein? And I'm getting my protein the same place that other animals in nature are getting their protein, from plants. And it all starts at the lowest common denominator.

You know, carnivores are eating animals that are all made of protein, but all those land animals are eating plants to build all that protein. So the cow, the horse, the rhinoceros, the dinosaurs, they all ate plants. And those plants have amino acids, which those animals can synthesize into proteins. So it's, you know, the science is going to constantly involve of how people make their own protein and how it interacts on a molecular level or in their body. And they're going to understand it at a much more advanced level in 20, 30, 50 years from now. And it's like, you know, does it even matter?

Does it even matter to do these tests and these studies? Because, you know, it's like you just eat what's in nature as it's created. It's worked for, you you know all of eternity and you know trying to break the stuff down and and and you know go and bring it into the laboratories it's just you know it's just uh it's just a waste of time well it's also it's it's a complex system you know so i think we've seen that when with supplements when you extract a particular nutrient out of a whole food and take it as a supplement. It doesn't interact with your body in the same way that it does when you consume it in

the context of a whole food. So it's a matrix. And, you know, I think to be able to fully understand it is, you know, I don't know if we're there yet, you know, but I think that the touchdown of what you're getting at really is eat nutrient dense foods that are low on the food chain, really. Yeah, simple stuff that's found in nature and try not to like, you know, make it more complicated Touchstone of what you're getting at really is eat nutrient-dense foods that are low on the food chain, really. Yeah. Simple stuff that's found in nature and try not to, like, you know, make it more complicated than it needs to be. That's the thing that I think people struggle with, though, is they think it is complicated because they think it sounds extreme. And I guess on some levels, you know, when compared to the way most people eat, you know, you could characterize it as extreme. And it just scares people. So, you could characterize it as extreme.

And it just scares people. So how – I mean – It is extreme. It's extremely unusual to eat this way in America in industrialized cultures. And that's what people are fearful of is socially it's totally different. Economically, it's extremely expensive, which is a whole other topic and one of the main reasons why i think people really can't eat this way uh but if you take yourself out of this this matrix that we're living in of of the way we think about food and you put yourself in a totally different environment like and and and and i like, you bring yourself back to nature. Go to, like, a super remote area in a tropical region, very similar to where humans probably evolved. And you put yourself there.

And let's see how easy it is to make a fire in a tropical jungle where everything's wet. Let's see how easy it is to catch animals, to eat them. You know, let's see what you're going to be eating in that environment. And I've had the fortunate experience to do a lot of my business in a country called Sri Lanka, in a very rural, very far-removed area in the world that hasn't been corrupted, where there isn't anything but maybe Coca-Cola, where people eat extremely simple. And when I go to this country on a frequent basis, I see how people eat.

And I see their psychological culture around food. And mangoes are growing everywhere. Papayas are growing everywhere. And coconuts are growing everywhere. And this is what people are eating as a primary source of calories. They're not thinking about Doritos or the supplements or, you know am i getting enough protein or you know they're just eating what's free what grows naturally and what

sustains them and is sustainable in in in you know environmentally and and and that's they they're not scratching their heads thinking what am i gonna eat today am i getting all my nutrients and blah blah blah they're all at a good, healthy body weight, body composition, whether they're 70 or 18 years old, they're all basically able to function at the same level in terms of walking or carrying things. And it's a sustainable way of life that's been going on for forever. And so when I see that, it gives me a lot of confidence. Like, you know what? It's not crazy to eat nothing but apples for, you know, a day or papaya or mangoes or lots of tomatoes. It's like this stuff's grown in nature and it sustains everybody if that's what they're eating because it's healthy. And it's like, man, it's like stop trying to find ways of, you know, finding the problems with stuff and focus on just enjoying life.

What do you, what would you say, I mean, there's this huge trend in diet right now to the kind of, hey, sweetie, it's okay. His daughter came. Sorry, my daughter. It's all right. This, this, you know, low carb, no carb, no sugar, no sugar, no grains kind of protocol, no sugar, no sugar, no grains kind of protocol, which, to be fair, is very focused on, you know, all the artificial sugars and all of our foods, but also kind of says, hey, even fruits are bad. Hey, even fruit juice is bad. You know, you got to stay away from all the fructose and all the sugar. And that's the that's the roadmap to health. I'm not going to say that if you just eat you know bacon eggs and ham um you're not going to lose body fat i mean every everybody i think sees that atkins works to some level to lose body fat you know it's well ketosis it's just a physiological process that occurs when

you're not eating any carbohydrate yeah i mean you know shackleton went to you know this to to antarctica and survived for you know i think likeleton went to, you know, this to, to Antarctica and survive for, you know, I think like two years eating whale blubber and seals and stuff like that. I mean, it's the human body is incredible. We can sustain ourselves on, on virtually anything. I mean, you can eat your shoes if it's made out of leather and like get by for quite a while, but I think it comes down to what's, what's optimal, what's most sustainable, you know, in, in our, in our, in our world that we live in right now. And, uh, and what's what's optimal what's most sustainable you know in in our in our in our world that we live in right now and uh and what what's morally the right thing to do so so like i said before even if it's okay even if you could have better nutrition eating that stuff

you know where's the discussion of this not being sustainable there's too many humans on the planet we can't eat animals in it consciously when we really care about our future generations. It's just we can't do it. So whether it's healthy or not, I just think it's a moot point. Well, there's also this debate about grass-fed beef and raising animals in a more ethical way. But I just kind of look at that and say, yeah, but you're still raising animals to slaughter them. You know, I mean, the end point is the same. They might have a brief, you know, somewhat happier existence. And maybe there is an argument that on some level, that's more sustainable, but it's not a seismic shift in sustainability that I think we need.

And given where we're headed, I mean, we're headed for a serious crisis point and how we, uh, you know, how we provide food to this massive population that continues to explode in growth. I agree. What are we going to do? What are we going to do? And I, the writing's on the wall. People only want to hear, you know, good news about their bad habits. And the reality is, if fish might be really good for you, it might really be healthy. And I don't know all the science behind it, and I'm not going to try to attempt to figure it out. But there's no more fish in the oceans. And it's just not a sustainable way to eat.

It's if you really have compassion about future generations, we've got to be eating raw plants in their whole natural state as they're grown in nature as our primary source of calories. So I don't even try to argue the points about all this stuff related to animal proteins or, oh, you're not going to eat B12 in your diet. Well, it's like, okay, so I take B12 supplementation because whatever the science is, I'm actually not getting enough B12 in how I'm eating. It could be related to the fact that I eat too much conventionally grown food. Maybe it has to do with the fact that my food is just too clean because there's just no dirt on it and then the bacteria is in the dirt. Maybe I should be eating some bugs on my produce, but since I'm washing all the bugs off,

I mean, I don't know all the science behind it. I try to eat whole foods. If I need to take a B12, I'll take a supplement. I'm not going to start eating fish and red meat, because that's just a whole other discussion about something that's not sustainable in my mind. Right. And I think the problem occurs when we make the choice to overly engage in this argument. I mean, neither you or I are physiologists. I don't have a PhD in biology. I'm not a nutrition scientist. And, you know, a lot of other people out there that are espousing this diet or that diet aren't either.

And we can go around the merry-go-round on this thing forever and never convince other people. And they're not going to convince us. And is that productive? Is that a productive use of this forum, you know? I try to, you know, stop pointing the finger and point it at myself. And try to honestly evaluate the decisions that I'm making, the choices that I'm making and, and do an inventory of how I'm feeling emotionally, physically, spiritually, is this suitable for me? Cause that's all I can control. You know,

I mean, is this working for me? Is it not? And you know, what I'm doing is working for me. And after listening to you, it's like, I could do better. I'm going to try this. I'd like to see if I could feel better than I do. Maybe there's something here. And remaining open-minded to new ways, I think, is important, too. And not devolving into name-calling and these labels that I think can get everybody into trouble. Yep, I agree.

that I think can get everybody into trouble. Yep, I agree. I think it's important to always keep the focus on trying to improve and keep an open mind. And maybe I try to strive to only eat 100% raw fruits and vegetables, mostly fruit. And if somebody can't match that or live up to those ideals, they shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater. that or live up to those ideals. They shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Try to eat, and my suggestion is try to eat mostly high water content fruits, at least during the day, and if you eat some cooked food at night, whether you eat some baked potatoes or even if you're just, you know, you can't stay away from that fresh Atlantic salmon, you got to have some of that. I think the focus that I like to push people towards is eat mostly whole water content fruits and vegetables, mostly fruit because they have a lot of calories, and you'll get most of the benefits. Yeah, it's this idea of perfection, I think, that creates a problem because somebody will look at you and say, oh, that's just too extreme. Or maybe they try it and they make it for a couple days and they slip up and they just say well that was too hard and then they just go back to eating the way that they were eating before rather than all right well that happened like how can i learn from that like what do i do next what's the next best right choice rather than like you said throwing the baby out with the bath water yeah and i try i try to stay away from foods at all costs that have control over my behavior and that affect me in a negative way.

So I do not eat processed foods. I try to stay away from foods that are made for stimulation, for entertainment. Not that I can't be really entertained eating Black Mission figs. They're incredible. They're delicious. So what would those foods be? What would be your flashpoints if you were to have a craving? What are some of those old things that you used to eat that used to stimulate the pleasure center? I think that's a very good question.

And a lot of times when I first started out eating this way, I wondered if I'd ever get over some of those flashpoints or those crutch things that I just had to have. And some of those things were cheeseless pizza, thin-crusted cheeseless pizza with some vegetables on top and some sauce. That was just like heaven for me, and I ate that a lot. I eat that now. Yeah, and I thought I was never going to get over that craving, and I fought it, and I fell off the wagon quite a few times. I was never going to get over that craving, and I fought it, and I fell off the wagon quite a few times. But lo and behold, I stopped craving that food after I just gave it up, and I ate it less and less and less, and it doesn't have control over me.

Just like when I gave up smoking cigarettes when I was in high school, I don't ever feel like having a cigarette anymore. It's out of my consciousness. I don't want thin crust pizza with sauce. Even if I romanticize it in my mind, it's out of my consciousness. I'm not interested anymore. And it's really important that you think you're never going to be able to stop eating chocolate or drink coffee. If you just give yourself a chance to let it go and you fight those urges enough times, you will get past it, and I'm free. That's one of the greatest things about eating the way I do is that food doesn't control my emotions. It doesn't control my actions.

I don't obsess about it, and it's liberating. It's incredible to not have to eat certain things, and I can't stress that enough. Right. I mean, it's total freedom, And I talk about this a lot. I mean, you hear a lot about these diets that give you a cheat day. And for me, and part of this is informed by the fact that I'm a recovering alcoholic, and that's kind of the prism through which I tend to approach these things. But if you have a cheat day every week or whenever the case may be, then you remain imprisoned to those cravings. And if, you know, just speaking for myself, I would walk around

all week thinking about that one day when I'm going to get to eat that cheeseless pizza or whatever it is, and you're never really free. And the truth is, is that you can be free. You do have to weather that detox and break that cycle of craving. And it takes a little fortitude and a little bit of time. But if you can weather it and see it through, then you are, like you said, completely, you are free. And it won't occupy a thought in your head anymore.

I mean, you'll have maybe the occasional flare-up craving, but you won't walk around obsessing about it. And I think it's huge. It's awesome. I mean, it's self-love. And it's just freedom. It's great. And it's not feeling like you're deprived. I really honestly don't miss or feel like I'm missing out on pizza anymore. I've used the example in the past that I was brought up in a Jewish culture, kind of a kosher religious household.

And growing up, I never felt like I was missing out because I couldn't eat ham sandwiches. It was just something that growing up as a Jewish kid, we just never ate, and it was not in my consciousness. And I think my friends maybe at lunch at school would be like, oh, poor guy. He can't have a ham and cheese sandwich. It was just something I didn't think about. I wasn't into it. And people probably don't believe me a lot of times when I say I just don't miss eating pizza or cookies or donuts or brownies or Rice Krispie treats. It's not something that I'm thinking about.

I love eating strawberry papaya. I love yellow watermelon. I love cherimoyas and just incredible, incredible endless ranges of fruits and vegetables. And I read, I think it was in the outside. Oh, somebody coming in here. It's all right. In the outside magazine piece on you, they said that you were eating up to 30 pounds of fruit a day.

Is that true? Yeah, when I'm training really hard. Yeah, when I'm training, you know, I mean, these days when I'm doing heavy mileage, I'm out there, I'm doing a long run, eight hours running, literally 30 hours a week. Sorry, one second. Yeah, no problem.

What were we talking about? Oh, yeah, training, when you're in peak training, your fruit intake is upwards of 30 pounds a day. Yeah, so when I'm working out at an extreme level, uh, upwards of 30 hours of running in a week. And, and, and that's, that's really what I was doing. Um, and what I do do when I'm really training for peak ultra races, I I'd eat 30 pounds of food a day. And if, if you, you know, if you, if you get a 15 pound watermelon, you know, maybe, maybe this five pounds of, of that five pounds of that fruit that you don't eat, but it's still 15 pounds of weight that I've got to take somewhere and open up.

So when I go shopping at the fruit wholesalers for 10 days, I'd really be taking home like 300 to 500 pounds of food, and I'm going through it. Right. And it's interesting, too, that you sort of rooted out the wholesalers. Like in New York City, you can walk down the street and there's fruit vendors all over the place. You can buy that

and I'm sure some are better than others, but you figured out the source where the wholesaler that's providing all of these people with their fruit and just go directly to them, right? So you're getting the preferred price on it. Yeah, to get down to some of the nuts and bolts of why people, I think, have a hard time

even attempting to eat this way is because, one, our society is not set up to help people to eat healthy. The dollar menu costs a dollar because the government is, in a lot of ways, subsidized and controlled and influenced by these huge, large corporations. And fresh fruit and vegetables, you know, there are very few large singular growers of these things.

And the food's perishable, and it doesn't have shelf life, and there's not a lot of profits in it. There's a lot of risk. And it's not conglomerized like, you know, like the grain industry and the processed food industry. So they don't have an effective lobby group in Washington that can throw a lot of money at that and make it shift in those pricing structures. Yeah, so even though I make a reasonably good living, I don't want to go and spend, you know, 30 bucks on 10 pounds of apples. I mean, $3 a pound is crazy, and especially when I'm eating as much as I am.

So I mean, it's crazy. I go to warehouse loading docks, and I'm buying fruit in these industrial zones. These guys must think you have your own store or something like that. There's no way that this guy could be eating all this fruit. Yeah, it's pretty funny to go talk to these guys, and they just don't believe that I'm going to eat this stuff. And I'm like, nah, you know, my wife eats a lot of fruit, and so do my kids. And I've got a 12-passenger van that I fill up with fruit every 10 days, 2 weeks, and take it home to my 4 refrigerators in my basement. Oh, my God. And, yeah, I'm committed.

I'm committed. But health is what is most important to me. It's my number one priority. And the results speak for themselves. And, you know, I put that. That's a very high priority in my life. And unfortunately for most people, they don't have the infrastructure to consider even doing that. Unless they live in a big city, there really isn't a place to go where you can buy stuff in bulk.

And it sucks. You know, there's a lot of people that can't eat this way logistically. And yet, you know, a lot of people live proximate to a big city or in a big city. And probably with a little bit of research, they could find the wholesaler in their area. I mean, is there anything online? Is there like a resource online that you go to or that you could share with somebody to learn a little bit more about maybe a more cost-effective way of approaching this? I mean, just a simple Google map search and just type in like fruit wholesaler, produce wholesaler, and you'll probably find the closest place near you. And I think, like I said before, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

If you can't get good fruit at a particular time of year or because you're in a kind of a location that's just not supplied well with these type of things, you should still focus on trying to eat as much whole high-water content foods as you can. And that is the message that I want people to hear. Right. And where do you break down on organic versus non-organic? I personally do not eat a lot of organic fruits or vegetables. It's a major concern for me. It's a real hole in how I eat. And it's the last frontier for me, is trying to grow either my own food or be able to maintain a consistent supply of really high quality organically grown fruits

and vegetables. And I don't really have a good answer for that. If you got the money, I say spend it. Spend it on organic whole fruits and vegetables and then let that be your health insurance investment instead of your 401k. And how do you kind of navigate this with your kids? How many kids do you have? I've got three kids, 12, 11, and 7. And they don't live in a cult with some crazy father. If we take them to the amusement park and they're seeing funnel cake and they got to have it, I just say, listen, if you want this stuff, it's not healthy for you to eat it. I wish you'd rather go for the apples or the oranges or the sliced up fruit.

But you're going to be able to make your own choices. And I try to lead by the example. And my kids, now that they're getting older, definitely are trying to make better choices. And they eat a lot of fruits and vegetables. But yeah, they eat pizza too. Yeah, I mean, that's very similar to what my wife and I do with our kids. We just try to lead by example in the house,

prepare really great nutritious meals. And they go to their friend's house and they're going to do what they're going to do. Um, but they're armed with the information to make, uh, to make the best choice. And I have two teenage boys and to see them wake up in the morning and, you know, blend kale in a smoothie or something like that in the morning is because they want to, you know, not because I'm, they don't, you know, whether I'm watching them or not, they're making that choice is pretty cool. Yeah, that's awesome. I mean, speaking of that, where do you come down on juicing and vitamixing and blended drinks versus just eating the fruit,

you know, in its natural state? I'd say the only reason I don't juice or blend more is strictly because I'm lazy. I don't have anything against it. I think, you know, there's a lot of discussion about how you could probably get, you know, more nutrients and digest food, maybe even easier, especially vegetables with blending or juicing. I just don't do it because I'm lazy. I love the simplicity of just, you know, grabbing a piece of food and sticking in my mouth. Right, right, right. Okay. And what do you have coming up? What are you training for right now? This is 2013, and I've actually made a commitment to my wife and kids that this is kind of like the year that I take it easy or focus, not take it easy, because I don't think I really know how to take it easy, but focus on other things. I'm spending a lot more time with my kids. I'm putting

a lot more time into business, trying to, you know, get my financial situation a little bit more improved because over the last seven years, I've sacrificed a lot to kind of prove to people that, you know, this type of diet and lifestyle is not only sustainable, but it's optimal. So I'm really not training for anything serious right now. I'm probably running anywhere from 60 to 90 miles a week. I run to work a lot. So it's part of kind of my lifestyle. I still exercise, but I'm not really, I'm not training per se right now. I'm going to do, I'm going to do some fun races at a recreational pace, like the Leadville a hundred mile race, probably going to go back to Greece and do the Spartathlon. Um, I just ran the Boston marathon.

I've done that 18 times. It's kind of more lifestyle at this point than just be real competitive. I'm 36 and it's time for me to kind of move on. I don't want to say that I'm retiring, but I think probably until I'm 40, I'm going to be backing off quite a bit. Right. Priorities shift a little bit, but we got to find a way to make sure that as many people out there as possible hear what you have to say, because it's a really powerful message, man. You got to write a book. Yeah, yeah. No, I'm in the midst of writing a book. I'm actually going away for like two weeks to lock myself in a cabin and just bang it out. And I've got a lot going. I've got some really good stuff that I'm writing and I'm excited about

it. Hopefully by the end of this year, I'll have that book out. It's going to be called fruit is fast food. And, um, it'll, it'll, it'll talk more about what I've been talking about. Nice, man. Well, if there's anything that I can do to help you with that or help get the word out or whatever, consider me a resource. Um, well, cool, man. I know you've got a, uh, you're super busy here, so let's wrap it up. I could talk to you all day though, for sure. So hopefully I can, maybe when I get back to LA, if you come busy here, so let's wrap it up. I could talk to you all day, though, for sure. So hopefully I can, maybe when I get back to LA, if you come to LA, I'll have you on the show again, or we can Skype or something like that. Because there's so many more questions I want to talk to you about, about training and lifestyle and parenting and balance and all of that. And all I can say is that you're an inspiration.

All I can say is that you're an inspiration. You've set the bar high, and I think I'm going to explore some new dietary and lifestyle changes because you're exuding health, and you are an athletic specimen. I mean, your results are incredible. You're a very elite athlete. Sorry, man. Take it easy. I'm serious, man. You have inspired me, and it's awesome to at least, take it easy. I'm serious, man. You have inspired me. Thanks.

And it's awesome to at least grab a little bit of your time today. So I appreciate you carving it out. All right. Fruit is the future. It's the original fast food. And eat it and live life to the fullest. There you go, man. Is there anything else you want to promote or anything like that?

Any website? People can connect with you at thefruitarian.com. Is that the best place to learn more about what you're doing? And I think if people want to spread the word to try to get the message out, I love talking to reporters. I definitely believe fruit is the future. It's the ultimate health food. And it's going to happen. I think we're all moving in that direction of sustainable food

for this incredible population of humans on the planet. And I've got complete confidence that raw fruits and vegetables are just going to win. We're going to win, guys. So that's the good news. All right, dude. All right, man. Thanks for your time peace plants Thank you. you you you you