The Rich Roll Podcast - How Des Linden Won Boston: Lessons on Big Goals, Showing Up & Loving The Work

Episode Date: June 25, 2018

On April 16, 2018, Des Linden captured the hearts of millions the world over by becoming the first American female in 33 years to win the prestigious Boston Marathon. It wasn't just that she won. It's how she won. You see, this wasn't supposed to be Des' year. It wasn't supposed to be Des' race. Her preparation wasn't ideal. She didn't feel great. And doubt crept in. On top of everything, the weather conditions were unprecedented. So Des Linden decided to do what nobody does — sacrifice herself and her personal performance for the benefit of her friends. She famously pulled up when Shalane Flanagan detoured to the porta potty to pace her back to the group. Then selflessly repeated the gesture to help Molly Huddle bridge a separation gap. These are not things you do when you are in it to win it. But Des Linden is no ordinary athlete. And this was no ordinary race. At mile 22, Des surged out of nowhere, impossibly depositing her into the lead. In the biggest race of her life — on a day when Mother Nature and her icy rains and 25mph headwinds proved the biggest antagonist — she finally claimed the precious victory that had always previously eluded her. Today the 2-time Olympian shares her story. How she did it. What got her there. What it all means. And what's next. This is a conversation with Des and her long-time manager Josh Cox — the U.S. 50K record holder and former elite marathoner in his own right — about a storied athletic career that until now lacked just one thing: a major marathon victory. It's about what this particular victory means not just to Des, but to American women's marathoning and running in general. It's about the mindset that propelled her career to this historic moment. It's about leveraging past failures as an opportunity to grow — because failure is simply an action, not an identity. But more than anything, this is a conversation about the power of showing up. Because when you simply keep showing up for that which you love, you make room for the miracle. Applicable in running. Perhaps even more applicable in life. I sincerely hope you enjoy the exchange. For the visually inclined, you can watch our entire conversation on YouTube here: http://bit.ly/richanddes Peace + Plants, Rich

There was a lot of days where I didn't want to get out the door in the past couple months, and it was just show up, just try, just see, and don't skip the job just because you think it might go a certain way, or you don't feel good. Just go and see, and most of the time you get out the door and it goes better than you thought. But if you don't do it at all, like you have no chance of getting better. It's a zero. It's you just look at it with some kind of regret, you know? So for me, it was just give yourself a chance. Just try, just start. And it's not always going to go your way, but you don't know unless you show up. That's Des Linden, the great Des Linden. And this is the Rich Roll Podcast.

The Rich Roll Podcast. Can I read you guys something? I'm going to read you guys something. It goes like this. Some days it just flows and I feel like I'm born to do this. Other days it feels like I'm trudging through hell. Every day I make the choice to show up and see what I've got and to try and be better. My advice, keep showing up. Now, these are not my words. I wish they were my words. They are the words of today's guest, Des Linden.

And I got to tell you, I could not agree more wholeheartedly. My name is Rich Roll. I am your host. Welcome. Welcome to the show where I dive deep, deep with the best and the brightest, the most inspiring thought leaders and high performers across all categories of health, well-being, social responsibility, popular culture, and in the case of today's program, world-class athletic performance. Now, as many of you guys no doubt know, a couple months ago,

Des Linden exploded on the scene. She captured the hearts and minds of millions of people all over the world when she became the first American female victor in the prestigious Boston Marathon in 33 years. The last time an American woman won this race was 1985. It was extraordinary. And she won in dramatic fashion on a day when the elements, Mother Nature, icy rains, and 25-mile-an-hour headwinds were truly the main antagonist. And today, the two-time Olympian comes by the podcast to share her story, how she did it, what got her there, and what's next. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time.

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To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. Okay. So I happen to be on a flight to New York City during the Boston Marathon, so I couldn't watch it on TV. And generally, I don't get airplane Wi-Fi, but I had to on this particular flight so I could follow the race online on Twitter. And I was just wrapped by the whole thing. I was just so astounded at what Des was able to do on this extraordinary day. So I was delighted when her manager, Josh Cox, who is an amazing runner in his own right, a former top marathoner,

a guy I've known for many, many years, who also happens to own the American record in the 50K, when Josh got in touch with me while I was in New York City about getting Des on the show. So I was like, yes, I would like to do that. And so here we are today. This is a conversation with both Des and Josh, who joins us for some great perspective as both an authority on running,

as well as Des's longtime manager. And it's a conversation about many things, what this victory means to her, to American women's marathoning and running in general. It's about the career that led to this point, the mindset that finally propelled her to victory and what it means to just to show up, to keep showing up and the applicability of this ethos, this theme to not just running, but to everything in life. So this is me, Des Linden, and Josh Cox. Good. All right, Josh, Des, so nice to have you here. Thank you for making the trip out to the hinterlands.

I appreciate it. I can't imagine what your life is like right now. It's just been an absolute whirlwind for you, right? It's insane. That's the best way to't imagine what your life is like right now. It's just been an absolute whirlwind for you, right? It's insane. That's the best way to put it, but it's all good stuff. So still a lot of momentum and adrenaline with it. Right. It's making it all work. It must be helping with the typical sort of post marathon blues that tend to happen, right? Like you must be riding this crazy wave of energy. Yeah, for sure. I think you take the time off afterwards and you start processing like,

what do I want to do better? You know, if you don't get the outcome you want, you do all that. And I haven't even had time to think about the race. Yeah, you're too busy like throwing baseballs out. Yeah, I'm working on my throwing arm. And, you know, hugging Taylor Swift and stuff like that like it's so cool to to to see like mainstream culture really embrace like the accomplishment that that you have that you that you made and and and really um shine a spotlight on not just marathon running but like women's marathon running it's super cool, that's been probably the most surprising part, just seeing the places it's reached, but very rewarding because the women's side was highlighted this year

and John Hancock had this expectation for the American women to do something really big and they brought in the great group and it was good to get it done. Well, it was all about the women's race. There was almost no ink on the men's race at all. You had to really search for it. It was just all about the women, which was super cool. So, can you walk me through it? Can we talk about the race? Are you tired of talking about it?

Let's talk about it. Cool. Well, I think there's so many kind of interesting entry points into that experience. interesting entry points into that experience. But I think a good way to kind of, I think, launch into it is to talk about your buildup to the race. Because from what I understand, it wasn't like the best sort of training cycle going into it, right? Like, were your expectations tempered as you lined up on the starting line? Yeah, probably more so than ever before. And a lot of it was the months prior to. So last fall, I decided to not do a fall marathon

and just almost step away from running for a little bit and kind of hit reset and remind myself why I'm doing this or if I want to do that. And almost gave myself an out, like, if you don't want to do this anymore, if you don't want to be competitive, it's okay. And just try this for a while and see if you can take a step back from the sport. Right. So you took like five months off after 17, right? Yeah. It was probably three months off. And then it was like, do I feel like running today? Okay,

great. And if I didn't, that's great too. Did you think, was there a possibility at that time that you thought you might retire? Not retire, but maybe lower my expectations and pick different races that maybe were, like, I really wanted to win a marathon. And I've been shooting for Boston, New York, the games, these really big races. And I was like, maybe I go do the local one, or maybe I do the Detroit marathon or the Traverse City one or whatever it may be, just so I could have that experience of winning a marathon because you kind of need that. Well, yeah. I mean, you've sort of been a bridesmaid for throughout your career. Like you've been able to kind of ascend to the top of the sport and yet still lacked that like one big victory. For sure.

And so was that part of what kind of motivated you to get back into serious training or? Yeah. I mean, I missed it when I wasn't training and running. I got to the point where I started to miss it. And that was a good sign. Yeah, that is a good sign. And then I started doing races that were short and just out of my wheelhouse. But I could do a lot of races and compete and you do a 5k

every weekend. And I was like, oh, that this is fun too. Like I like competing, um, and just kind of rebuilt my love that way. Um, but it's not ideal for marathon training to have a block of inconsistency. Right. But I think finding that love for the sport is something that perhaps is a little bit underrated in the long run, right? For sure. If you're hating it every day, you could be super fit or hitting all your marks in your workouts, but your mental game isn't going to be as dialed as it possibly could. Right. I mean, having the passion for competing and for what you're doing makes all the difference.

If it's a job, if all it is is a job, like, you're not going to be great. You got to love the work, too. But at some point, it must have clicked in, like, okay, I'm going to Boston. Like, it's time to get serious. Yeah. I mean, and Boston's always been the race that got me fired up. So once that was on the schedule and it was like, I'm going to that race. Um, that's when I have an easier time preparing and like, okay, this is where I visualize myself down Boylston. And,

um, you know, I've been doing that ever since I first ran there in 2007, like picturing yourself winning that race. You named your dog Boston, right? I did. Yeah. So this is like a heavy thing. Like why, why? I mean, I understand, but like why Boston? Why not New York? Why not Berlin? Sure. Boston was my debut marathon, 2007. It was similar conditions to this year's, not quite as bad, but, you know, it was a thing that kept me in the sport.

I never thought I was going to be a professional runner. And I was like, well, I'll try this marathon, try to qualify for the Olympic trials, and then move on to the next thing. But after that race, I was like, I love this event. I love 26.2 miles, but this course and with all the history, it just captured my heart. And it was like, I wanted to see what I can do here. But prior to that, I think I had read that you thought like marathoning was crazy. Like it wasn't like you were always pining to run a marathon. Yeah, no, I still think it's crazy. But yeah, I wasn't sold on it at all. I mean,

coming out of, in college, I was a person who was like, the 10K is insane. There's no way I'm running that far. I'm a 1500 meter runner. And the coach is like, 5K. And you're like, oh, fine. You get tucked into the longer stuff. It's interesting looking at the trajectory of your career, because you were a good high school runner and you were a good college runner, but you weren't like a superstar. Like, you got third at Pac-10s or something like that at ASU. So it wasn't like, oh, I'm going to have a career as a professional runner and just rise all the way to the top. Yeah. Is that fair to say?

Absolutely. Yeah, same type of bridesmaid thing where I was an All-American. I was a runner-up, I believe, at the high school level at a state championships. at the high school level at a state championships. And, uh, but I always competed and worked out with athletes who had those big breakthrough performances. Like I ran with Amy Hastings, now Craig, uh, Victoria Jackson, Lisa Aguilera, all these people who won national championships. And I did everything with them. So it was like, what am I doing wrong that I can't have this breakthrough? What am I doing wrong that, you know, I'm working out and doing the exact same stuff as these guys. So I have the ability, I'm just haven't got it done yet.

So what do you think it was that was not allowing you to get up on that next rung at that time? Like, what did you learn over the years that has allowed you to come? Because like, your career is really just one of gradual progression upward, right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was patience, just letting my body adapt to the work and not forcing things. But it was also even in college, it was like I wanted it so bad that I tried to force it. And sometimes you have to step back and, like, again, like love what you're doing

and just engage in the process and not worry about the result. Like just worry about what you're doing right now. And I felt like when I would see things slipping, like, oh, the result is not gonna happen today. I would just like get so frustrated and find myself giving up on it. So like detaching from those short-term results

and just falling in love with running itself and kind of having a longer-term view. Absolutely, yeah. So in the ramp up to Boston, you take this, I mean, it sort of appears on paper like that five-month period off was kind of instrumental in kind of rebooting your operating system and getting you fresh and excited about the sport again. Yeah, it was definitely necessary. I don't think I could have gone through another big training block without having done that.

I think I would have been really frustrated and maybe not even made it to the line to the start. But when you go through the segment, I'm a big picture person. I don't think that a marathon result is predicated on the last three months. I say it's a result of the last 12 months. And so I knew I had this big hole in my buildup, even though my buildup to Boston was pretty solid, if that makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense. But does that play into

your kind of mental confidence as you line up on the starting line thinking, oh man, this is like the greatest aggregation of US female marathoners and and god knows how long right and you're thinking about like the days that you didn't train yeah yeah no that was certainly on my mind and i was like thank goodness it's pouring rain and there's other factors uh because you just expect to be exposed you know like but you didn't do all the work this time. But I've also been doing this for 13 years as a pro. So, I mean, it's kind of a blip on the radar, really. And those Michigan winters. Right.

Yeah, they played a huge part, I think. Yeah. So, walk me through the first part of the race up until the big, you know, Shalane event. Yeah. I'm, I didn't feel great. And I think part of me was thinking this race was going to be a stepping stone for the next one to be really good. And so with the conditions, it was like, feel it out mile by mile. And if this is going to be detrimental to the building process of the next one one like you have to just cut your losses today yeah um i think a lot of people are gonna have a really hard time recovering from that race and i

was thinking about that up front which is not a great attitude to go in with but it's also it's realistic for like the rest of my career you're thinking about like a couple more years to do this so i don't want to blow another year on this race that could you know just be really hard to recover from right right right so it's a weird mindset to have in a race and especially that early on um but that's where i was mentally and the pace was surprisingly i thought we were just gonna jog i thought I thought it was going to be like 6.30, seven minutes, no one's leading. And there was a couple of East Africans who took turns off the front, like really running in the 5.40s, mid 5.30s. And it's like, this seems really aggressive for these conditions. And so I think that was also playing into how I felt like this isn't

sustainable. And then you have a little chat with Shalane at some point, right? Yeah. And just all of that feeling and what I might, when I might step off the course, if I was going to do that, um, I just kind of turned to her and said, I don't think it's my day. Let me know if I can do anything for you. Cause she looked like she was ready to go. Everything in the interviews leading up is like, she's fit. She's got a shot to win this. She's coming off a great New York. So I'll block the wind if you need me to do that.

Just tuck in behind me. I mean, that's a pretty amazing gesture in a race where it's all on the line for all of you guys. And I think ultimately that's a big part of why everybody fell in love with you. That's a big part of why everybody fell in love with you. To sacrifice yourself on that level on the global stage for the betterment of American female marathoners is kind of an amazing thing. But she goes in, she does this 13-second pit stop, right? And then you work her back up to the group. But the pace was pretty relaxed at that moment, right? Is that right? Yeah, she kind of faded back and was like, I need to go to the bathroom. Do you think it's a good idea? Which is the weirdest conversation

ever mid-race. I mean, does that happen that often? It doesn't seem to happen that, and that's kind of like, you're done if you have to do that, you're out of it typically yeah yeah so josh you're you're in a hotel room by yourself pacing like in your underwear pretty much yeah the tv like when you see this like what's going through your mind well i was down in the friends and family area and it's they have a couple tvs but you can't hear anything and it's everyone's talking and the competitors families are there too so you can't really get into it and i'm a big sports fan guy who it does yell at the tv and stuff and i need to focus yeah no and i just want to like pace and do the thing like you're saying and i'm up there and i was a little bit surprised um i mean we obviously des and i are really close and been she's like a

sister to me and we've been working together since 2011 and she's always very honest with me and we talk a lot or we text a ton actually and uh but i had the night before i had been in their hotel room with ryan and we kind of for like two hours just talking about the plan and how it was going to go or maybe not go or the weather and the factors and we knew that the weather was going to be a plus for Des. Right. Because she's so tough between the ears that other athletes are going to see it and view this as a total negative.

And this is horrible. And look at these conditions and the headwind and the rain. And she's just super tough. Right. But all that, knowing how the buildup had gone, to see her drop back, I was like, okay, well, this is a new development. New tactic.

Yeah, and she did it, and she brought her back up, and I'm like, that's a really cool gesture. It's all class. It's something that you don't see. It was like cycling or something, and the domestic going back. Right, yeah, to pull the yeah but but but you guys aren't technically teammates no and you're not you make some prior agreement uh you know work for the betterment of the team leader no they're actually rivals and they are team you know usa national team and rio olympians together

and all of it but yeah there is there is, there's this thing. I think over the last couple of years, the rivalry has really turned into friendship, which is really cool between Des and Shalane. And Shalane's an amazing runner and we couldn't have been happier with her New York performance, but yeah, she drops back to help her. And it was like, well, this is, this is very surprising. I think you called, I read somewhere where you called, you called Des a gamer.

Yeah. So is there something about the heightened experience of being in a race that allows you to rise to the occasion? Like, does your motivation come from that, you know, being sort of placed in that kind of an experience? Or, like, is it about racing other people? Is it more internally driven? What gets you pumped up? Yeah, I mean, I look forward to race day. I think some people get nervous

or they're afraid of it a little bit. Like that's, I say all the time, you do all the training because the race is the reward. That's so fun to me. Like I love lining up with everything on the line. Like you could change your life today. That's so cool. I mean, and I look forward to it and I get excited about that.

And I think that's why I'm this quote unquote gamers because I can't wait to race. You know, that's what I'm looking forward to. And I like the nervous, anxious, all of that, and just going out and doing your thing. Yeah, and having trained in the Michigan winters, I mean, I would imagine you're thinking, oh, this is nothing compared to what I'm used to. These Africans are going to just cave.

They don't like to run in the rain at all. Yeah, they're not even going outside on a day like that. Right. But you know, I've had days in Michigan, there's some hilarious things that we do that you're like, that's just a bad idea. Like I think I've run the coldest is a negative 30 wind chill, you know, and coaches like go out and run and we'll drive by you in case anyone gets a little too cold. And it's funny. You're just like, he's insane. This is the dumbest thing.

There are treadmills, you know. And you go out and you do it. You stop whining for a second. Like, it's actually not that bad. Like, if you dress right and you have some people with you, I'm like, oh. Like, I didn't die. And so it changes your perspective on what you can handle. I don't know if it's necessary but

so when you're out when you're out on the course in boston is that looping in your mind like that day that you went out in the in those kind of conditions for sure i mean it's like i've done worse than this i'm not this you know it could get bad it could be a thing where you have to step off and say well if it was the negative 30 and i needed coach's car it's there um if you need the out no one's gonna fault you on a day like that but i was also like i've done this before it's okay so uh after after the you know working back up into the pack was there a moment where you know know, things kind of shifted, like a gear shifted and you thought, like, I actually, like, feel good? Like, maybe I can, you know, take this or maybe I need to shift my expectation level. It was a little while later.

I actually got her up to the group and they had started turning off some good miles just because they knew she was being dropped. And so we worked back up. And then I started falling off the back. And I was like, oh, well, that's it. I did the gesture, and we'll see what happens from here. But I thought I was going to be dropped. And I kind of looked up, and I was closing it down. They were kind of slowing up again.

I kind of looked up and I was closing it down. They were kind of slowing up again. And then I saw Molly Huddle at the front and another American Hope who thought was going to have a great day. And I was like, she shouldn't be leading into the wind. They're never going to close up the gap to Daska. If they do, if Molly does it, she's done. That's her day. And so I just thought I'll go up front and lead that group as long as I can and try to get them back up to Daska and then see what happens from there.

Like I can step off. Sacrifice number two, right? Yeah. For the greater good. Yeah. And you were able to do that, right? Like you worked out, you worked, you pulled them back up. Yeah. I really, well, I reattached to that group cause I'd been getting dropped and then I went straight to the front and started pulling that group towards the leader. And a couple minutes

later I looked back just to make sure like tuck in, don't take any wind on like I'm doing this. It's fine. I looked back and it was like three of us that had totally pulled away from the group. Like I had completely splintered it up. So I was like, well, I'm probably the strongest of all these people. If I'm dropping people, I might feel bad, but I'm clearly feeling better than everybody else. So I probably should stay in it. That's super interesting. That sort of equation between how you feel and how you're actually doing, you know, like your subjective experience versus objectively what's happening and being able to like separate from how you feel and just continue to keep going.

Yeah. I mean, my college coach, you know, would ask us before races all the time, like, you ready to go? And some people will respond, well, I feel kind of tired or my legs don't feel that poppy. He's like, I didn't, I didn't ask you how you felt. I don't care. You're either ready or you're not. And that's always kind of how I looked at it. Um, like I've done the work, I'm ready. It doesn't matter how I feel. And I think because of the conditions I was really evaluating early on, like, how do I feel? Is this going to put me in the whole long recovery, longevity,

the whole thing? And so that's the first time I've spent a lot of time evaluating how I felt. And then by the middle of the race, it was like, I don't need to do that. Just go back to what works. And around this moment, like what's going on in your head, Josh, as you're watching this unfold? Honestly, I couldn't believe it i mean i it's does a story to tell and she'll tell the whole story at some point but i'll say this since i've been working with her i've i'm i'm an i'm an eternal optimist i always think hey she's put in the work she's super solid she always has a shot to win the only there's only been two races that we went to that i'm like she's probably not breaking the tape and one was berlin in in 2013 we decided to go there because this was after her femoral stress fracture that she had at the london games and it was a comeback

race and it was like hey let's just go let's run under 230 just get one under our belt so that one was just like hey let's just put it in the fairway. And this was another one because of, you know, since really last summer, it was a rough year. And she'd had some good days and some bad days and some zeros. And I just thought, this won't be one where she wins. I mean, it's... Totally fair. Just being objective. How mean, how dare you? I know. It's like you're fired. Yeah. No, but it was, I was, I was, I was in disbelief

what I was seeing on TV and my wife's in there and my buddy ben is in there coach that i work with because he wanted to hear as well and i had the mpc gold on my laptop and i had the local coverage there and one goes commercial i'm listening to the other one you know and i'm watching this going this is amazing and it wasn't it was just i couldn't believe how good she looked. She had had some good days in training, as you do, but if it was last year, last year going in, her build-up was spot on. I thought, this does not win. This can win. This time, I was like, well, we'll see. I was just surprised that she

looked so good. She was popping off the ground and everyone else was... Starting to fall apart. Right, totally fall apart. When you dropped, she dropped the whole group and then she kind of like looked back and you see her look back and it was like... Like confused. Yeah, and then she just kept going.

And it was like, dude, this might be her day. How much of that do you think does think is being able to kind of stay present and have your mental focus super attuned versus just the physical challenges? Yeah, I think so much of it's mental. And you can see it in the first half of the race where I'm doing all these things that I wouldn't typically do because of how I feel and I'm worried about that. Right. If you felt great, you wouldn't. You don't help people. Yeah. They're on their own. Yeah. And I think that helping people has

removed me from thinking about myself and how I felt and this is hard. And it was like, let me just do this task. And you become task oriented and then you have a little bit of success. Okay, I got Shalane to the group. That was a win for the day. And you forget about the bigger picture and you just stay in the moment and do the thing in the moment. And as I started to do that and just focus on the moment I was in, not what was ahead and how much was left and how bad I felt and how windy or rainy it was. That's when I started getting into a rhythm. I never felt great,

but I just, it didn't matter anymore. Yeah. Like taking that focus off of yourself, I would imagine sort of releases the pressure a little bit too. Yeah. Right. And then, and maybe there's a little bit of a greater relaxation where you can kind of settle into it and you're not really thinking about you and what you're going to do. And then suddenly everyone's falling off the back and you're like, oh, right. Absolutely. So it was kind of at mile 22, right? Where you just, you took the lead. where you took the lead. Yeah, I think it was 22.

And Daska, we closed down the group on Daska, and Cheshire from Kenya was a little bit in front of me. I think she held the lead for about three minutes. And then I passed her, and I just felt like if I was going to pass her, I had to go from there in just because the experience in 2011, I was like, you have to race from here and you have to race hard. And I don't want to be in a sprint finish on Boylston. So I'm going to start pressing now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 2011, you lost by two seconds or something like that. Two seconds. Yeah. So is that, that's going through your mind? I would imagine too, right? Absolutely. Yeah. And, and forgive me if this is an ignorant question, but when you take the lead, do you know that you're in the lead?

Or are you still like, is there somebody else still up there? Do you have that kind of clarity? Yeah, no, I knew I was in the lead. I didn't know what was really going on behind me. And like, okay, we passed Daska, and I think she's going the wrong way. Like, she's not going to come back on me but you know i'm definitely slowing down i can tell in my cadence and pace like i just feel like i'm running really slow so i'm also thinking it's just a matter of time before someone who's paced this better comes charging by me um and and then i also wasn't sure

if uh chessier was able to respond. I kind of just thought she was going to sit on me and wait for the kick. Do you like turn around and check on that? Or is it that's not like you just keep your eyes going forward? I didn't look. I just kind of wanted that in my head that I was in a really intense race so that I would keep my foot on the gas. And how much does the crowd kind of contribute to the energy? Yeah. It's in Boston. It's amazing. They know when an American's in front and they're out there cheering no matter what, but when it's, you know, an American, you can feel it along the course. And, you know, the crowds are a little

lighter because of the weather, but it was still pretty unreal. Yeah. And, Josh, what do you do? When she takes the lead, what's going on with you? I just thought, I hope that those early water stations, elite fluid stations that she skipped don't come back to bite her. This is the thing. She's a consummate pro. And I think something, a decision she made before the gun even went off that morning paid huge dividends.

And she's at the church there at the start in Hopkinton, and all the athletes are going out, and they're coming back in, and they're soaked, and they're freezing, and they're shivering. And she decided not to warm up. Right. I read that. And I was like, how do you not warm up? Well, I think we were-

The first 10 miles. The mail get freezing, right? Well, and that was part of the conversation the night before was it's going to be slow. It's going to be a race to the back. That's what we thought. The pack's going to go out, and everyone's going to be a race to the back. It's a 30-mile-an-hour headwinds. It got us up to over 30 miles an hour.

I mean, we walked out that morning, and it was literally funny. I mean, I'm walking her from the photo op to the bus. And I have my Padre hat on and the hood. And the hood flies off and the hat almost goes. And she just starts laughing. It was something out of central casting. I mean, literally, the rain, it's like this just dumping. Like someone's dumping buckets. And it was like sideways.

It's one of those things, if they did it on a set, they'd be like, that's too much. No one's just not believable. Yeah, it was funny. it was fine she started laughing and just oh didn't see this coming at all like because we talked about it over the night before but that was the thing we thought the start was just going to be a race to the race to the back and it was no one's going to want to lead this start to finish and go everyone's just going to be tucking in and so she didn't warm up but she thought the early miles this this would be a great time to warm up this would be fantastic and it wasn't that way they kind of pressed but she was dry and she wore her brooks jacket and it was honestly she the clothing she

chose was perfect and she stayed dry she had a on. And then she pulled out her little ear headband thing right before the start and kept it dry. So I think a lot of that and something that the reason why a lot of athletes are having a hard time recovering now was you're burning through so much glycogen just to keep your core temperature up. Right. And so you're not running that fast. You do have a headwind. But you're shivering. I mean, you could see people in the pack watching. And I had other athletes.

I'm like, she's really cold. I can tell. Yeah. And it's, Des was very, very smart. But when she had done all this helping and Shalane and Molly and kind of skipped some bottles, which is not Des. I mean, she's the one that grabs her Nathan bottle and runs with it for a mile until it's gone.

I mean, it's not she it's you know four to eight ounces depending on how hot it is and she has her stuff and she we drink it to the end it's not like oh if i'm thirsty or whatever it's this is what you need for this 5k and having getting the blood sugar up all of it it's she's she's a pro but she had skipped some some early and i'm like well you know it's's probably going to be one of those days. And then she's in the front, and I'm thinking about all these things going. Like, if she cramps up. Something.

But I was just like, okay, let's go. And it was, I was tempering my expectations. So it's like the thing that we've talked about over burgers and beers a hundred times. Like, you're going to have your day. This is going to be amazing. And someday it's going to be you. And it's like you start reflecting back on the London Olympics and sitting there at the Team USA house. And we all have the thousand-mile stare.

Like, you had to drop out. You made the Olympics. Yeah. And it's this bittersweet thing. You've accomplished this big goal. And it's it's just this is it like and then the Rio and then it's last summer and it's like this roller coaster thing you dream about this moment so I wasn't letting myself believe yet that today was her day Des is going to be the Boston Marathon champion. And that's forever. I mean, I couldn't allow myself to go there yet.

I was hopeful and I was praying and I was like, please let this be the day. But I wasn't. I hadn't committed there yet. Because I was like, I'm just going to get crushed. Also, I mean, with that kind of wind, it really is almost like a cycling race. 100%. And you're sacrificing yourself on the front. The energy output that you're expending is so much more significant than the people that you're pulling. So you're actually doing more work than everyone else. And the question becomes, when is this going to run out?

When are you going to run out of gas? No, I ran the last several miles just in fear. And I didn't look back because I didn't, you know, I wanted to feel like I was in a race, but it was also like I knew I skimped on those early bottles. And when you hit the wall in the marathon, it's not like losing 20 seconds a mile. It's a minute and 20 seconds. Like you're done. You're not responding. You're not, you know, coming back. And so I was right in the line of like, am I going too deep in the well? Um, how do my legs feel a little bit shaky? Like when am I crossing over into this? Like I'm doing the death march home. And, um, yeah, I was afraid for that moment because I just thought it was inevitable after the things I did early.

And at one moment, near the end, you were going to try to take your jacket off, right? Yeah. I think it was 25.5, you go under an overpass. And I was like, I'll take the jacket off and you can see me fidget with it. And I kind of bite it. My hands were too cold. I was like, I'll take the jacket off and you can see me fidget with it. And I kind of bite it.

My hands were too cold. I was like, if somebody passes me because I'm playing with my jacket, I'll be so mad at myself forever if I lose the Boston Marathon because I wanted a better winner's picture. Like, that would be ridiculous. The single shot versus a jacket shot. I wanted it in the jersey. That's the only thing where you win. The image that will live in infamy forever, right? If you're doing something silly. There's the person you celebrated too early.

Then there's the person who tried to get a better finishing picture. Like that would be horrible. All right. So walk me through like crossing that finish line. I mean, what is that experience like? Yeah. It's right on Hereford, left on Boylston. I made the left and it was like the heavens just opened up and the wind

gusted even harder. And I think I laughed. Like someone asked me the other day, did you smile when you turned on to Boylston? I think I did because it was like, again, it was just comical how bad the weather was. And it was like, there's 600 meters to go and I'm going to get one last like from mother Nature.

And I still wasn't sure I had it in the bag. So I felt like I just needed to run strong and be ready to respond if someone was on me. So that's how I ran that stretch. And when I got past the Lenox Hotel, I think that's where I got outkicked in 2011. That's when I was like, okay, I think I got this. And then I saw Tom Grok of the BAA did like a fist pump, and you could start hearing them announcing like, this is Desiree Linden, she's going to be your Boston champion. And I was like, okay, no one's, I got it. And that's when I was able to celebrate. So it was a couple of strides from the line. And I was in disbelief. I was just,

this can't be real. And it was all this stuff we talked about, you know, it just seemed like it was not going to be my year. Yeah. That's what makes it so beautiful and poetic that you had sacrificed yourself twice. You had thought like, this is, you know, if anything, I'm going to help these other women. And then for it all to switch and make it your day is just something really amazing. so uh so john josh you you you sort of have this famous embrace with does at the finish line right like beating ryan's yeah well here's the thing she crossed go ahead i go no no no go ahead okay so she crosses yeah and then joni's there and i mean we're all we're there and everyone's we're friends with everyone in boston we go there every year we not just in the, we're all, we're there and everyone's, we're friends with everyone in Boston. We go there every year.

Not just in the spring. We're doing other things. The servers at the hotel know us. It's like family. So everyone in the BAA is there and they're like grabbing my shoulder. Like, I think it's going to happen. And like they told us we have to, you know, just be professional, but I don't care. I just, I got it. I love Des.

We're all there, and everyone's so excited. She crosses the line, and Joni, she's wearing the hood, all black, and hugs her. I was waiting, and we were waiting, but Ryan and I had been there like, this is going to happen. We had been hugging and doing whatever, just waiting for her to come through we should say just for people that are listening ryan is yes yes yeah yeah so yeah ryan linden um great dude so we're there joni hugs her and then it was just pure emotion and we just ran out and hugged and if i could go back i would acquiesce and give them like a 10 second, five second, I don't know, something at least like, so there could be a photo of them hugging.

Split second. Yeah. Like anything. But we just, I was kind of like stepping out and I was like, Ryan, Ryan, let's go. Let's go. Like, this is like, this is the time to do it. And we just ran out. And the first thing Des said was, I can't believe that just happened.

And it was like, neither can we. And I think I said you were in this or something, and I don't know. I was crying like a baby. I know the work that it takes. I was a runner, that whole thing. These are the things you dream about. These are the things that get you out of bed at 5 a.m. when the alarm goes off and it's dark outside. And you don't want to go and do the run before the travel schedule, but you go out and you get your 12 miles in.

And it's this dream of one day it's all going to come together and it's going to be my day. It's all of these things that you've seen in your mind's eye again and again and again and again. And you want that so bad and i've never i've never been so excited for someone else to do anything my brother sent me a text he's like dude that's the happiest year i've been in your life i'm like yeah he's like dude you've never cried like that in your entire life i haven't't cried since my 18-month-old was born, like before that. And I was just overcome with so much joy and happiness because it was a shock, too. So the difference with like a child's birth, it's cool and it's great.

You know it's coming. It's coming. You know very well, particularly the last month. It's like it's all you hear about. Like, get this baby out of me. I'm so big. And it's coming you know you know very well particularly the last month it's like it's all you hear about like get this baby out of me i'm so big and it's this thing that you can prepare for this i was not prepared for this i mean it was just this awesome uh moment where des had done the thing uh-huh and she got it done and she put this stamp on her career and she'd been you know second in in Chicago in 2010 because of subsequent disqualifications. And then her real coming out party was at Boston in 2011, the sprint finish with Caroline

Cole. And it really put her on the map. But then since that time, right after that is when we started working together. And it's like, you're going to get to the mountaintop. And you have to believe that as an athlete, that it's all going to come together. That, I mean, does, has said it a hundred times, but sport isn't always fair. We all work very hard and you hope you get that day where it all comes together and you get this massive ROI on your lifetime of work. And she did it.

And I'm just like under the craziest of circumstances like if you had to script that moment as somebody who's been you know chasing this dream for so long and you know had come so close so many times and you know was climbing that mountain and just you know like sisyphus pushing that rock up the mountain time and time again. I mean, ultimately for it to materialize in such a strange but beautiful way. I mean, you couldn't hope for anything better than that. Yeah. No, I mean, I said it after the race and still applies. It's storybook, really is.

It's fairytale stuff, but real life, which is pretty cool. You know, there's been a number of weeks that have passed. Do you have greater, some objectivity on it or a little more perspective now? Like, what does it mean to you? Yeah, it's the thing that I can say everything was worth it. All the work was worth it. You know, you dream of it and you put in the hours, you put in the time. Again, there's no guarantee. Everybody works hard.

But you believe in yourself and you buy into this idea every time you line up for a major. I mean, again, there's been twice where I thought not going to happen for me this time. But since 2011, moving forward, if I start a marathon, I'm there to try and win. Like, I believe I can win. I've been preparing the last three months and saying, well, I'm going to be a Boston Marathon champion. So what does a champion do? And you bring that attitude to every day. You act as if you're already there. So what does a champion do?

And you bring that attitude to every day. You act as if you're already there. And then if it doesn't happen, you have to deal with the aftermath and regroup and then buy into yourself again and keep doing that and not give up hope. And so it's a really hard thing to do, and there's no guarantees, but, yeah, it makes all of that worth it. Yeah, I think if there's anything, if there's like a word that really kind of captures your career, it's persistence, right? You've got this phrase, keep showing up, right? You trademarked it, which is genius. It's in the works. I love that.

And I have my computer here because I wanted to read this tweet that you had pinned, which is, you posted this on March 5th. Some days it just flows and I feel like I'm born to do this. Other days, it feels like I'm trudging through hell. Every day I make the choice to show up and see what I've got and try to be better. My advice, keep showing up.

So can you expound on that a little bit? Because I think that's applicable to anyone and everyone who's chasing a goal or a dream. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, the last 10 months prior to this were really tough, and it was as simple as go out for a run and don't skip the job just because you think it might go a certain way or you don't feel good just go and see and most of the time you get out the door and it goes better than you thought um but if you don't do it at all like you have no chance of getting better you know's a zero. You just look at it with some kind of regret. So there was a lot of days where I didn't want to get out the door in the past couple months. And it was just show up.

Just try. Just see. And every time I've done that, it's a thing we say. No one comes back from a run and says, I wish I hadn't done that. So for me, it was just give yourself a chance. Just try, just start. And it's not always going to go your way, but you don't know unless you show up. And is that something that you apply in other areas of your life?

I try to. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, as a friend and as a wife and all of that, even personal relationships, it's just be there for people, you know, try and be a good wife. And some days it's hard, but you show up and you do the best you can. And that's how you get better. That's how you learn.

And it's okay to fail. Just try again the next day. What is your relationship with failure? How do you think about failure? Yeah, I'm actually incredibly comfortable with it. I talk about it quite often. Last year was the big thing where I was like, I'm, you know, trying to win the Boston Marathon. I put it out there very publicly. And afterwards, it didn't happen. I said, you know, I failed, but that's okay. And people are like, you didn't fail. You were amazing. This and that. And I was like, no, it's like, I wanted to do this thing and I failed to do it. That's I failed, but you don't

failure is an action. It's not an identity. We do it all the time. And if you learn from it, you get better and that's how you grow. So I think being super afraid of failure, um, you kind of miss the point. Like, those are the lessons. That's where you learn the most. Like, you fail your way to success. I feel like we need a different word. Like, failure has such a negative connotation, and it scares us.

Yeah. If we could come up with a new word for it that we're comfortable with, then maybe we'd be more willing to put ourselves on the line. Yeah. with, then maybe we'd be more willing to put ourselves on the line because we're so afraid of suffering the consequences of what we consider to be failure and then beat ourselves up. But that prevents us from the trying. Right. Stepping out and giving it a go. But now that you've won and there's all this attention on you and you're throwing baseballs everywhere, like what is, how do you, yeah, how do you, I mean, it's a different experience now for you, right? Like, do you feel like, is there, you feel like everybody's eyeballs are on you? Or is there like a different kind of pressure that you carry with yourself? Like,

how do you, it's a new phase, right? It probably requires a little growth to acclimate to. Yeah. I honestly haven't really even processed that yet, like what's next and how I'm going to wrap my mind around it. But yeah, I mean, I'm just kind of riding the high right now. So you don't know, like you have an idea of what another race would be or what's the next big goal or challenge? Well, I do feel like there's been a huge sense of relief like i felt like i needed this highlight on my my resume um and i have it now which is great but now i can just pick things that i'm really excited about and find that like this race it's been the thing driving me for so long so i do they'll be that like post marathon lull because it's like well what is going to get me

that excited what's going to get me out the door now? And so I want to find a race that really speaks to me that way. Um, and I'll most likely do a fall marathon. So that's probably in the works and, um, go from there. Just, I get to be really picky from here on here on out and just do the stuff that I'm really passionate about. Yeah. And do you, Yeah. And do you sense that there's an additional pressure on you now to sort of hold that line being the Boston Victor, or do you try to not think about that? There might be, I just don't notice it. Yeah. That's good. That's super healthy. I think I'm just going to go out and keep doing me and I don't see any big change. Um, I think the

American women as a whole are so strong right now that I won't be surprised if I'm viewed as an underdog in the future still, because that's just kind of been what played like my role in this sport is the underdog. Well, the American women marathoners are certainly having a moment right now. I mean, it's kind of amazing what's going on. So what's interesting about that is like, why, I mean, we have Shalane, you know, winning New York. Now you winning Boston and a whole bunch of other outstanding performances. Sarah Hall just had an amazing run. That was like last week or something like that two weeks ago. I mean, this is unprecedented in recent history. So like, what is going on? Like, why now? Like, what is happening that's contributing to

this level of performance from American women marathoners? Yeah, I think we're getting more support with companies and endorsements and you can make a career out of running. And so that keeps people in it longer. You can develop. And I think two people are switching to the marathon earlier. You know, it's like, it's this really great event that you can have a career in. It used to be as soon as you got too slow for the track, then you had to go to the marathon. And that was where the old slow folks went.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The marathon, it's getting sexy. People want to be there. They see the attention around this big event, and they're really selling it. The success is going to breed success, and the more opportunities we have, and the more you can make a career out of it, the longer people can stay in it. Yeah, and also to see people performing at such a high level in their mid to late 30s, I mean, that's just amazing.

And that's purely a function of people being able to support themselves doing it. Yeah, absolutely. What is the role of your coach and kind of coaching in general in your performances? How does that work for you? Yeah, I've been with the same coaches for my entire pro career. And so I do the same basically marathon buildup every time. And then as I've done more and more, I know what I need from it

or what I need to tweak. And so it's more of a collaboration now, not like here's what you're doing and show up this day and this time and do these paces. It's like, I would like that here. I would like that there. And it's kind of a team effort that way, I would say. Has the training changed or evolved over the years

or do you kind of do basically the same thing you've always been doing? It's very, very similar. Um, and the big things that I think I do better than a number of my teammates, um, in which way I've, I believe I've had more success with the training than some other people have, um, is balancing in speed work and breaks and then marathon training and you know knowing you can't keep doing the same cycle over and over you have to go back to the track or you have to get into the shorter 5k races do some cross country um and it's knowing when to put those things in and tap into the strength or tap into the speed so in other words a lot of other people aren't doing the track work and the speed work yeah as much as you think they should be.

I think people like to do what they're really good at, which makes a lot of sense, but sometimes you got to go practice the thing that you suck at and get better at it so that it helps you with the strength stuff that you're good at or whatever it is. I mean, it's interesting to hear you say that because I can understand that for sort of couch cruiser marathoners who are just trying to break four hours or whatever. you say that because, you know, I can understand that for sort of couch, you know, sort of couch cruiser marathoners who are just trying to break four hours or whatever. Like they don't need to do a lot of track work, but at your level, you guys are running so fast that I would imagine everybody's at the track. You'd be surprised. Really? Wow. That's interesting. And, and also

to hear you, I mean, it sounds like you're, you're kind of a traditionalist, right? Like, okay, here's what works. This is kind of what's always worked in an age when it seems like every month, like there's a new thing, like here's a new diet or here's a new recovery tool or here, you know, all those long runs, you don't need to do that. You should be doing this instead. Like, are you able to just tune all that out and just say, this is what works. I listen to my coach. I know what I need. Yeah, everyone wants a hack, right? But running's always gonna make you a better runner. And I just, I think it's super simple.

You go out and you log the miles and like rest is, you know, recovery is getting good sleep, a massage. That's it. It's like, I mean, you don't have to get cute. What about like compression socks and what are those, the Normatec boots and all that kind of stuff? Do you do any of that kind of thing?

I'll flirt with that stuff. I mean, I don't mind the socks, especially if it's cold. The track and field, they don't like compression socks too much, right? Yeah, not on the track. There's that great story where like, was it Chris Lieta went out to train with you guys up in Mammoth, and he shows up in his compression socks, and you guys are laughing at him. You're like, no, real runners don't wear those. Are you sure they just weren't laughing at Lieto? Yeah, we're just laughing at Chris.

It's fine. He's a good dude. It's so funny. And Josh, as somebody who was an extraordinary runner in your own right, 50K was a world record or American record? American record. Does that record still stand? It does. It does?

Wow, that's amazing, man. Are you able to bifurcate your role as manager from sort of talking to her about actual coaching type stuff? Yeah, I do my best to stay in my lane. And I let the coaches coach, and I do. best to stay in my lane, you know, and I let the coaches coach and I do, I agent, you know, so it's, uh, but certainly I do have strong opinions on, on it all, you know, and like someone like Des, I mean, we talk a lot and you know, it's, she's not asking me for training advice, but it's like, yeah, we have discussions all the time or like maybe this product or do this, or this is what worked for me.

I was competing when I started representing. I mean, we both competed at the 2012 marathon trials. So, yeah, this is the thing. We had mutual sponsors and this thing, and I knew what worked for me, and I knew what my training partners were doing, and very fast people in their own right Ryan Halls and Meb and we have this group it's you learn anecdotally by a this is what has worked here and this is what you should maybe try and Des is uh Des is a student you know so she's always

open to I don't know how many different mixes you've had in your bottles over the years but it's handful yeah it's it's but she knows what works you know and she goes with it but yeah no i i try and let the coaches coach well it's i think it's good to have his perspective too like when we're filling in schedules like what races make sense and you know there's some people who say well it's a gajillion dollars you're doing it. And, you know, do all of these races and you could sign up for something every weekend. But Josh knows that when I'm picking, it's these ones work and this is why. And like, you know, it's we're actually what we're really getting ready for is here.

And you don't want to compromise that because of all these other things. And you don't want to compromise that because of all these other things. And so it's good to have someone who's competed and knows that balance of appearances, racing, and then the big day and how to schedule it all in. And I like this idea of being in partnership with your coach, right? Because you have to take responsibility for yourself. And as somebody who's competing at such a high level for so long, you have to really own what works for you and be in a relationship with a coach where that's functional. Right, yeah, it can't be one-sided. It's you telling me what to do.

At this point, I've done so many segments. It's like, I know that doesn't work, you know? And they trust me enough to make those changes and say, okay, like you do what you think is best. But you moved to Michigan to be part of this team, right? The Hanson's Brooks team. And so when you're training or like how much of it is you going out and just running by yourself versus doing it with teammates? Yeah. It's kind of evolved over the years. Um, it was like live in the house with the group and every day, 8amm you know we all do the same run and work out

together and so on so forth um we've had a lot of people move on to different careers i'm obviously like one of the oldest one of the oldest on the team um and we have a younger squad that's on the track and you know their long runs 10 miles and i'm doing 20 and so it doesn't quite match up as well now, but I still have teammates. And then we've also kind of have like satellite athletes who live here, here, here. We're all in the same group, but that gives me a little more freedom to say, okay, I want to spend some time in the northern part of the state and just like hole up and run and not deal with the other stuff. And so it's a little more flexibility and I can do a lot on my own now too. Where do you go in the northern part of the state? We spend a lot of time in Charlevoix, Charlevoix and Traverse City.

So we have a nice house on Lake Michigan. Yeah, it's quiet up there. You can get on the dirt roads and not see a car for a 20-mile run. I'm originally from Michigan. Okay. And all my extended family is from Michigan, and we used to spend all our summers on Lake Michigan. My parents had a house near Sleeping Bear Dune. Beautiful.

Near Traverse. And it's amazing training up there. It's a hidden gem, so I hope not too many people see this and then run over the town with training camps. Yeah, well, you tell people in California that it's awesome, they just laugh at you. They're like, what? Josh, have you ever been up there? I have one time. Yeah, it's pretty beautiful up there.

Yeah, it's nice. That's cool. So what about Ryan, your husband? Do you ever train with him? I do, actually. We matched up really well when he was just doing marathons. And so in Chicago 2010, he had a really great segment and was ready to run 224. I had a rocky segment. It was like, I think I can run 227, 226. So we had totally different race plans. Uh, and I see him

at like mile 22, he's going the wrong way. I'm running up on him and I out kicked him. Right. You beat him by like one second, two seconds, two seconds. How often do you remind him's like, I hate you. Like, but you love me. So you'll go out and train with him a little bit? Yeah. He's moved into the Ironman world. So that's his thing.

But he can still run with me. Right. And on your big weeks, like what's the mileage look like? I'll get up to around 130. Yeah. Real big week. That's a lot. That's a lot of time. So you had the injury in London, right?

But other than that, have you been able to avoid big injuries? That's the biggest, and I've had little niggles here and there, stuff that I'll catch early, and it's like, oh, take a couple weeks off and you're good to go. So I've been very lucky. Right. What scares you? What's out there that, like, freaks you out? Like, physically or, like, the fear of not knowing what's next?

I guess anything. I mean, on the one level, like, is there an event that you're really intimidated by that you're scared to do? And then also just life stuff. Yeah. I'm always intrigued by the Ironman. Like, switching over, you know? But I'm a sinker. I go out for the swim and just go, vroom.

Yeah, but you just get a thick wetsuit. That's right, the buoyant. They make it easy. Yeah. Like, you watch, they thick wetsuit. That's right. The buoyant. They make it easy. Yeah. I, like you watch the, they put together the video at the end. It's all inspirational.

I get the awards and you're like, this is beautiful. These people are so tough and like, I want to do that. And then I see my husband's like training schedule and I'm like, that's horrible. There's no way. Well,

they, they, I mean, the NBC coverage is so beautifully put together. It looks like just a big romance. Yeah. It's a future thing. Right, right.

It is. The reality of it, I think, is a little bit different. Well, that's interesting. Maybe a little post-career Ironman experience. Possibly, yeah. Have fun. Yeah. You get to wear compression socks.

That's right. That's why. It's more for the fashion. There's a lot of amateur athletes that listen to this show. So I thought it'd be interesting to share like some insights as somebody who's been around the sport for so long. I'm sure you see because what you do is it's very rare in the sense that you're participating in the same event with all the amateurs, right? As a professional, like that only exists in a few sports like triathlon and running. What are the things that you see if you do, like that you see amateur athletes doing where you're like, what are they doing? Don't they know? Like if they just did

this, it would be so much easier and better. Yeah. I mean, I think it goes back to the hacks. Like everyone wants the quickest way to the pr and they want the fastest shoes or the lightest this um i'm not gonna pick on the triathletes but like the gear you can pick on them okay i'm gonna pick on the chat no the gear is like huge it's like let me shave something here let me lose a couple pounds there and um like just train like it's so simple especially i'm back to running it's just it's right foot foot, right foot, left foot, repeat. We all do it. Put in the time.

Do the work. And you're going to see the improvements. Don't try to do the shortcut. Just expect for it to take some time. Yeah, do the work, man. Most people, they want to talk about the shoes and the watch and the heart rate monitor and all that kind of stuff. And it's like, just go out and do it. Right. When you're at a race, like, is there,

are there specific things that you see people doing? Like, why are they going out and running really hard the day before the race and, you know, things like that. See a lot of that for sure um i don't know maybe expo stuff like looking for something new at the expo to help them on race day and you're like no don't nothing new nothing new today use that for the next one um yeah i think that's i don't know most people have it pretty dialed but a boston i mean you get to a boston and those people are pros you know they're like yeah they're the best yeah same thing with like a kona like they're pretty good pretty dialed, but a Boston, I mean, you get to a Boston and those people are pros, you know,

they're like, yeah, same thing with like a Kona. Like they're pretty good. They know what they're doing for the most part. Do you have like, uh, um, any kind of rituals around your mental preparation? Do you do visualization or do you, when you're running, are you, you know, sort of rehearsing what it's going to be like? Yeah, I think I, it's not like a scheduled or planned thing, but I think I just naturally do that. Like we all get out in the middle of a run and you're picturing breaking the tape. But not like a routine every week where I go into it and like have to do this or that. And then pre-race, it's the same thing. where I go into it and like I have to do this or that. And then pre-race, it's the same thing.

I'll write a race plan, like an actual physical race plan, pen and paper and write out how I see the day going and the things. It's based on what I can do, not what people around me are doing. It's like control the controllables, and I write it out on a piece of paper, and then I have this thing to look at afterwards and say, oh, I didn't do that or I did do this. And also when you're on the course, instead of evaluating how you're feeling, you just go, what's next on the plan? What am I supposed to do next? So it takes away that bargaining moment where you're like, well, I feel bad.

I should slow down. It's just a bargain because you have the next thing on your plan to do. Yeah, I think I read that the first time you did Boston, when you lost by two seconds, you said that was the first time that you had lost it because you had rehearsed it so frequently in your mind, winning it, that you were like, wait, I know this is... I'm supposed to win. Yeah, heartbreaking.

But I think that what I take away from that, what you just said, is this idea that it goes back to how you're feeling versus how you're actually doing, right? Somebody who's not as mentally tough or as mentally well-rehearsed, when they don't feel well or they're like, I'm off my game, that can just crack them, right?

And then the race is over. But to understand like, okay, I don't feel good now, but there's a long way to go and many things can change to be able to stay present and focused on the bigger goal. I mean, I think what you experienced in Boston is a perfect testament to that. Yeah. It's such a long race. There's so many ups and downs that you're going to feel a million different ways. And if you let the first bump in the road derail Like, what's the internal engine that's propelling you through this adventure? I've always been motivated to find out how good I can be, you know?

And I want to know how fast I can run and how well I can compete. And that's why I go to the biggest races, um, instead of trying to win the smaller race, like those big races push you because there's the best people there. Um, and if you want to find out how good you can be, you have to line up with people who can pull you to that spot. And, um, you know, and that's making the decisions to show up every day is I don't want to look at the zero in the logbook and go, well, now there's a question, like I didn't do all the work. So what if you had, how good could you be? And so it's, it's just finding out what I've got and how far I can take

myself in the sport. So it's really internal, right? It's you measuring yourself against yourself. Yep. A hundred percent. yep 100 yeah yeah and how do you maintain that when there's you know like when you're in a race and you're a gamer um how do you stay within yourself when there's all the jockeying with the other athletes like do you let go of that and you're just racing or are you still like okay i have my plan i gotta stick to my plan yeah i think it's balancing the two and knowing when it's appropriate to race, what moves are appropriate to respond to, um, what's totally out of your wheelhouse. Um, and that's all, you know, the Josh always says the first 20 with your head, the last six miles with your heart. And, you know, that first 20 miles, you have to make

race decisions based on your ability and everything you've seen in the preparation and know when to respond and when not. In the last 10K, you just go from the heart, you know, respond to whatever you can respond to, dig as deep as you can dig. Yeah, and that's just, I feel like, a lifetime of practice racing. Yeah. And that's just, I feel like a lifetime of practice racing. Right. Josh, if I had to ask you, which I'm going to ask, what, what makes, what makes Des great? Like, what is it about Des that, that maybe people don't, don't really understand? don't really understand? I think, well, one, it's who she is outside of running. She has been on this quest to find out how good she can be. And the race isn't the verdict on her.

I think she has very good balance for someone at her level. A lot of athletes at her level, a lot of, a lot of athletes at, at her level. And when I was competing, they take their question, you know, do I have what it takes to their job, to their performance, every single bad workout, they're crushed. You can't talk to them. It's man. I hope the next workout goes well. So I can talk to this guy and, or I hope the race goes well. So we can still go out and have a good meal after. And is she disappointed after London and from all stress fracture and the whole, yes, sure. It's like you want them to care, but she does have this balance and she never lets herself sulk too long. You know, I think the last year was probably the toughest that I've ever experienced with any athlete. Um, just the stuff she was going through and the ups and downs. But on race day, outside of that, between the curbs, she is so tough.

She talked about the last 10K, running it with your heart. She knows how to put herself into the pain cave and be tougher than she's ever been physically. She'd be stronger than she's ever been mentally. And she's going to give herself every chance to succeed. She does a fantastic job of race day execution. That's the thing. A lot of athletes, they do the same build up amateurs all the way up to the pros. You look at it and then they totally do not execute on race day. And that's the thing you look at it. And you know, I do a lot of announcing for NBC and whatever,

when we go to these races and you hear these pre-race comments and the guys are like, well, I just plan on going through the half and 62 30 and I'll slow up on the back half, but I'm pretty sure that I can still PR. And it's like, the data doesn't show that like you want to run even, there's no such thing as banking time in the marathon if if you want to run three hours being five minutes ahead of pace at halfway is not awesome like that's that's bad you want to you want to run even the fastest times in history or even our negative splits second half faster does does not mess up the race day

execution and typically you know it's like we talk about the missing bottles and i mean that's the thing it was like that was the surprising part the chelene part i was like oh well that's cute or whatever but the missing bottles i'm like yeah well all right i don't know there was nothing about that race that i think was about a race execution plan right no from the minute you start no warm-up no like you know i mean it was a total anomaly. I mean, this is not Des, but she executes on race day really well. And obviously it worked out, you know, in Boston. Is there anything like with this white hot spotlight

on you right now and you having to run around and do all kinds of interviews and stuff like that? Is there any part of you, Des, that you feel like is being missed or misinterpreted or that people are not understanding about this whole thing or you in general? No. I mean, I think I have always been very open and honest and genuine. And so I feel like it's always been received correctly. I don't know. Josh, what do you think?

Well, okay, this is the part of the podcast I was waiting for. It's your moment. Go. The cool thing about Des is she is super comfortable in her own skin. And she's not the one that gets all makeuped and stuff when she goes to run or to an appearance or whatever. I mean, we go to billboards and like, yeah, you have 45 minutes scheduled for hair and makeup.

And she's like, what are they going to do for 45 minutes? You know, and she looked beautiful and it was amazing. And everyone was like, oh my gosh, she looks amazing. You know, but it's, it's cause this is her, this, she's totally comfortable in her own skin and she speaks her mind and she always has. And it's what makes her endearing. And it's's why people what you see is what you get there's uh des doesn't pull any punches and she's not putting out the facade and this it's oh this is who i need to be on social or whatever and this highlight reel of my life and it's this is this is what's going on it's her pin tweet it's this is me being

honest and this is who i am and so there's with, with a lot of people, it's like, well, there's a lot you don't know, but I can't talk about it. You know, but with her, there's, it's, she is super comfortable in her own skin, and that's what makes her so cool, and that's why everybody loves her. I just wanted to pat on the back. Thanks, Josh. Yeah, I know. Yeah, this is like a big love affair happening here. So you guys were in San Diego yesterday, right? And you did this run rock and roll race.

And I saw the tweets. There was like an active shooter. So what was going, what happened? It was pretty unclear. Like it was, here's this thing going on by the marathon. And then as people get more information, it's like, it wasn't at the marathon. It wasn't towards the marathon. It was near the marathon, but just in case. And so I don't even, it's like, it wasn't at the marathon. It wasn't towards the marathon. It was near the marathon, but just in case.

And so I don't even, it was like, they shut down the course. They, we, we went to get brunch. It's really great place. And we had these massive omelets and it was super. And we're walking back and we get back to the West end and we see all of these ambulances. Like it was like six of them lined up and I'm going, what's going on? We're not near the race course. And I asked Tara Welling pro that was there that had raced I said what's going on she's like well there's an active shooter situation I'm like what I'm like you I said I said what are you doing

so I'm waiting for my mom I said you need to wait inside yeah like have her text you like I was I was surprised they didn't have staff saying everyone inside I mean it was we didn't know what was going on so immediately we're gonna go take a nap but we went up to the bar we're like can you turn on the local news and we're trying to find it on twitter and we're looking i'm like i'm just gonna say everyone should go inside like i i don't know and we put a link the nbc san diego link was this is going to be updated but apparently someone there was an incident and then they shut down the race course and because i mean it's yeah you don't know you don't know i mean it turned out that it was an altercation that had nothing to do with the race

right but like how you know the chaos that can ensue in the midst of that and and you know being being like boston were you guys in boston was that one of the years that you raced i didn't race that year um were you there josh yeah i coverage for them. Right. And so the kind of residual experience of having been there when that happened, when something like that occurs, you're like, you got a DEF CON 5. Everyone's trying to get the news, but no one has the news. And you don't know what to believe or what to put out there. If it's going to create more fear it's just like let's pause and like figure out what's really going on but also you don't want people being set up to be in a really horrible position so if you can get someone out of harm's way then

you do it but there is this social media 24-hour news cycle people want to be first rather than right and so there is this balance of like is this legit is what like okay this is confirmed and okay we should send something out but it's uh yeah you just pray to god that nothing like that ever happens again at a race right what in in boston this year i mean what is it like around the finish line do they have added security and all that kind of thing? Yeah. I mean, we noticed it the year after was a totally different world. And I think they have it down so well. Dave McGilvery and his team in the BAA, they're pros. They've been doing this for so long.

And I think the response on that day was great you know it's just a horrible thing but they handled it very well and then they got even better so it's different but I don't ever feel uncomfortable out there yeah it's such a crazy thing right and you're so exposed because the course is 26 miles long. I mean, it's like if somebody's motivated, you know what I mean? There's really nothing you could do.

There's no way to police 26 miles of course, particularly on a point-to-point the way that in Boston is. And they do as much as they possibly can for sure. So, Des, are you training at all right now or are you just taking a break? When I can. I've been traveling around quite a bit and it's just trying to get something in every day. And then if it can be quality, that's great. But I'll start really diving back into things probably a couple of weeks here. Yeah. Got a few more baseballs you want to throw out. That's right. What do you got? Do you have some cool stuff on the schedule coming up?

Yeah, I mean, we're going to New York this week for the mini 10K. Global Running Day is Wednesday, not to date the podcast, but she is going to be doing some stuff there at the New York Stock Exchange and some different things and appearances and whatnot, and then going to the BAA 10K at the end of the month. So she gets one weekend off. That's right. One weekend to train.

Yeah, exactly. She did run two hours yesterday, the pace group. Yeah, right? A lot of selfies and Insta-mo. I'm actually a little sore. No, you were taking pictures when you were going and putting them on Twitter. I saw that. It's very cool.

One of the things that I always kind of talk about on the podcast, as a father of two daughters, people say, oh, there's no great female role models out there. And I think there are lots of them. There's amazing women doing amazing things. It's just that we don't do a very good job of really celebrating them to the extent that we should. And we're focused on the Kardashians or what have you. So now as this, you know, newly anointed female role model, like, do you, how do you think about, how do you think about what you do and who you are and the impact that you can

have on young girls? Yeah. I mean, it's definitely really cool to know that we have the spotlight on our sport. And I don't think I'm alone in it at all. I do think that the American women distance runners right now, there's a ton of faces that are doing great things and are really inspiring.

And that's the whole thing, is if you can make this somewhat selfish sport connect and matter and get somebody to buy a pair of shoes, get a girl to decide to learn, take up running. And it's a lifetime activity. You can change a life, which is really cool. I don't see myself changing how I do things. It's just me being me. And I hope that there are really great parts that people will, you know, want to emulate or, you know, be inspired by.

And, but I don't, not actively trying to say, Hey, I want to change this or change that. I'm just going to, you're being you, I guess it's a lead by example.

You don't need to be anything more than who you are. You know, just you being you and what you do is do is really inspiring and it's powerful. And I think it was really cool how the media really did latch onto your story and it was so broadly told in such a beautiful way. And I think it's really cool for our culture right now. We're in crazy times right now and we need more stories like you. So it was so great that it unfolded in that beautiful way. And I think that the legacy of that, you know, will continue to be told for a long time.

And I think you're in a position to really influence a lot of young girls in a really positive way. And I think that's super exciting. Yeah, it's pretty cool. Yeah, it is. So if there is a young girl listening to this, who's like, she seems cool. What do you want to say to that person? I would say, figure out what you're about, figure out what you want, get comfortable with yourself, you know, and it might not be running get comfortable with yourself, you know? Um, and it, it might not be running, whatever it is that you like to do, uh, do it with all your heart and

dream big and give yourself a chance, you know, show up and do whatever it takes. And, um, yeah, just love what you do. Like, I think that's why I've gotten this far in running. It's just loving what I do. And it's kind of a cliche, but if you love your job, you're never going to work a day in your life type thing. But it's true. Yeah. I mean, I think most people don't do a good enough job of asking themselves that very question. Because we're not sort of culturally attuned to follow our hearts in the way that I think that we should be. And I think if everybody loved what they did or had the courage to pull on that thread and follow it,

I think the world would be a better place. So I think that's beautiful. I think that's a good way to wrap it up. Sounds great. Yeah. So thank you so much. You are an inspiration. I think that's a good way to wrap it up sounds great yeah so thank you so much you are an inspiration I really appreciate you coming to talk to me today if people want to find you online what's the best place for them to do that? I'm on Twitter at

Des underscore Linden L-I-N-D-E-N and it's on Instagram as well I put some fun pictures out yeah cool and Josh what about you? Josh Cox yeah but just follow Des Y-N-D-E-N. And it's on Instagram as well. I put some fun pictures out. Yeah, cool. And Josh, what about you? Josh Cox.

Yeah, but just follow Des. That's what I'm all about. He'll be on there at some point. You're atoning for that hug. It is, it is. No, it's cool. I really appreciate your guys' time today. Thanks a lot. Thank you.

All right. Thanks, guys. Appreciate it, man. What an incredible story. Thank you, Des. Thank you, Josh, for taking the time to share with us today. Do me a favor. Let both Des and Josh know what you thought of today's conversation.

You can find Des online at Des underscore Linden on both Twitter and Instagram. And Josh is at Josh Cox on both of those platforms as well. Make a point of checking out the show notes to this episode on the episode page at richroll.com. We put a lot of work into them. It's basically a syllabus to extend your learning, your edification, your infotainment of this conversation beyond the conversation, beyond the earbuds.

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