The Rich Roll Podcast - How Dirt Diva Catra Corbett Was Reborn On The Run

Episode Date: December 10, 2018

If Ross Edgley is a real-life Aquaman, I nominate ultrarunner extraordinaire Catra Corbett as a real-life Wonder Woman. Definitely one of the planet's most colorful athletes, Catra's polychromatic goth-punk aesthetic is a perfect superhero costume match for her sparkling personality. Rocking wild rainbow hair, brightly colored running costumes and tattooed head-to-toe, you can spot the Dirt Diva's smile from a mile out, happily tearing up the trails with her trusty side-kick training partner TruMan — a goggle-adorned mini dachshund. TruMan's superpower? He loves running as much as she does. Yes, it's all a bit nutty. But don't be deceived — Catra is an absolute beast of an athlete. Over the course of her storied career she has competed in over 250 ultramarathons and is the first American woman to run over 100 miles or more on more than 100 occasions (137 to date). You might recall Catra from the book Born to Run as the “kaleidoscopically tattooed” woman who ran the 212-mile John Muir Trail from Yosemite to Mt. Whitney. When she reached the end, she didn't stop. Instead, she turned around and ran back — a 425-mile effort for which she holds the fastest known time (FKT), completing it in just over twelve days. Not enough? Catra also holds the FKT for the Muir Ramble – clocking 324 miles in just 7 days. Oh yeah, she also ran 144 trail miles around Lake Tahoe in 43 hours on just 50 minutes of sleep. Most recently, at age 53, Catra completed three back-to-back 200-mile races to become the oldest woman to win the triple crown of 200's (Bigfoot 200, Tahoe 200 & Moab 240). It's an astounding feat she completed in just 10 weeks. A mere eleven days later she celebrated her accomplishment by running another 100 miles at the Javelina Jundred — dressed as the The Mad Hatter. Vintage Dirt Diva. To top it off, she's a vegan — a lifestyle she adopted 15 years ago to which she attributes her high performance prowess, race consistency and longevity. Catra's resume speaks for itself. But most impressive are the obstacles she has faced and overcome to become the shining example of humanity and athleticism she is today. Twenty-four years ago, Catra was lost in a hopeless spiral of meth addiction, disordered eating, and sexual and emotional abuse. Ultimately busted for peddling crystal, she hits rock bottom in a jail cell that scares her straight. Upon release she commits to getting sober, moves back home with her mother, abandons her lower companions, her boyfriend, and the dark lifestyle that she came to depend on. Her only clean friend pushes her to train for a 10K with him, and surprisingly, she likes it – and decides to run her first marathon after that. Sobriety saved her life. Running gave her a new one altogether. Along the way she attempts suicide, loses loved ones, falls in love, has her heartbroken, meets lifelong friends and finally faces the past that led to her addiction — all of which is beautifully chronicled in her memoir, Reborn on the Run: My Journey from Addiction to Ultramarathons*. I sat down with Catra to learn the how and why behind her incredible journey from meth-addicted cosmetologist to world class, vegan ultrarunning phenom. We cover her goth netherworld days and how she transformed her life in recovery. We track her accomplishments and what compels her insatiable drive to push herself well into her 50's. Enjoy! Rich

Just have fun. Don't go into trying to be so serious. Maybe if you want to start running or you want to get outdoors to make yourself feel better, just start by hiking. Just get out and breathe the air. Go out for a walk and look at the flowers, look at the plants, look at the trees. I mean, that to me, just getting out is the first step. You don't have to become a runner or do 100 miles, but get out and then see what the world has to offer and enjoy it and just find your passion. That's Catra Corbett, this week on the Rich Roll

Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey, everybody. How are you guys doing? My name is Rich Roll Podcast. Hey, everybody. How are you guys doing? My name is Rich Roll. I'm your host. Welcome or welcome back to the show, to the podcast, to my podcast. Great to see you. And just because that is a figurative and non-literal statement does not make it untrue.

Real quick up top, we're coming down to the wire on my charity water campaign to help bring clean water to those most in need. Right now we're at about $44,000 raised, which is amazing. It's awesome. Thank you. But again, we can do better. Come on people, tis the giving season. It's all of course tax deductible and every penny is meaningful. So to learn more and to donate, go to mycharitywater.org forward slash richroll. Did I mention I've got ultra runner extraordinaire Catra Corbett, the one and only dirt diva coming up. She's definitely one of the most colorful athletes I've ever met. I mean, they really broke the mold with this one. She's super cool. She's got this huge personality that perfectly matches her colorful punk rock goth looks. She's lathered in tattoos,

her hair and her running outfits are all kinds of wild and unique. She trains with her little dog, Truman, who wears goggles. I mean, it's all kind of nutty, but do not be deceived you guys, because she is an absolute beast on the trails with over 250 ultras under her belt, including being the first American woman

to run over 100 miles or more on more than 100 occasions. I think she's now at about 137 100 milers, but who knows? I can't keep up. You might recall Katcher from the book Born to Run as the kaleidoscopically tattooed woman who ran the 212 mile John Muir Trail all the way from Yosemite to Mount Whitney. And when she got to the end of the trail, she turned around and ran back for a total of 425 miles, for which she holds the fastest known time, the FKT, completing it in just over 12 days. Unbelievable. She also holds the FKT for the Muir Ramble Run, where she clocked 324 miles in seven days. Wrap your head around that.

And most recently, now at 53 years of age, she completed three back-to-back 200-mile races, the oldest woman to win the Triple Crown of 200s, the Bigfoot 200, the Tahoe 200, and the Moab 240. the Tahoe 200 and the Moab 240. And she did it in just 10 weeks, which she celebrated by then running the Javelina 100 just 11 days later, dressed as the Mad Hatter, I might add, because of course she's Catra. And I can tell you that Jason, who you guys know is my producer and my engineer,

he lives in Phoenix. He saw her at that race at an aid station. So he can personally verify that this is true. Oh, and you know what? She's also vegan. But what's most impressive to me about Catra is that she has overcome so much to be in this place. Meth addiction, jail, a suicide attempt, an eating disorder,

all of these obstacles that she faced and tackled and ultimately conquered to become this shining example of humanity that she is today. It's a truly incredible story. She chronicles it in her new book, Reborn on the Run, My Journey from Addiction to Ultramarathons. And it's all coming up in a couple of few, but first.

And it's all coming up in a couple of few, but first. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical

practices. It's a real problem. A problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs. Thank you. Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, I feel you.

I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time.

It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem, a problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to guide,

to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs. They've partnered with the best global behavioral health providers to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help,

go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. All right, Catra Corbett. So if Ross Adjali is the real life Aquaman, then I nominate Catra as a real life Wonder Woman. What do we talk about? Well, we talk about her incredible journey

from meth addicted cosmetologist to becoming a world-class vegan ultra running phenom. Of course, that goes without saying, but we also go into the how and the why behind it all. We cover the dark world of her Gossene days, a world in which she was in this revolving cycle of drugs and sexual abuse, emotional abuse, jail time, both of her parents passing away,

an eating disorder that she battled, and how she took all of these obstacles, confronted them, and ultimately overcame them to transform her life in recovery. We discuss what drives her unbelievable motivation to push herself well into her 50s. And we talk about how she does it as a vegan, a lifestyle that she adopted 15 years ago.

Don't worry, there's plenty of talk about Truman, her constant canine companion on the trails as well. I love this woman now, 24 years sober. She's just getting started. She's got such a positive attitude and this amazing zest for life. So with that, I give you the one and only Dirt Diva. All right, Katra, so nice to meet you.

Great meeting you too. Thank you for coming over here. I've been looking forward to meeting you for a very long time. Consider myself a big fan and a loyal longtime follower. You're amazing. And your story is just insane. The things that you've been able to do and what you've had to overcome to be this incredible person that you are.

So I'm excited to explore it with you. Thank you. So the latest thing that you just did was you conquered these three 200s, right? In a row? Yes. Three 200s within 10 weeks. Within 10 weeks. Yep. 650 plus miles of racing. So three, they're not short loop courses. These are mountainous courses. So the first one was Bigfoot 200 in Washington, which was very, very technical around Mount St. Helens, a huge loop, crazy conditioned, very, very rugged. You were out there, and so you had to make sure that

you carried enough gear for 20 miles in between up to 10 hours by yourself. And then the second one was Tahoe 200, which I had done before. And that one, dusty, dirty Rubicon Trail, lots of climbing, hot conditions. And this last one was in Moab and it was 240 miles. And it actually got extended because there was so much snow up in the higher elevations where we were supposed to go at 10.5 that she couldn't send us up there. It would have been up to our crotches. And so 9,000, but we still had like a good seven to 10 miles of snow to deal with. Wow. So freezing cold too. So yeah, it ended up being like three or four miles longer or something like that. Yeah. It ended up being 243 miles.

Right. So it was actually five because it was 238. How much time in between these 200s? They were like less than a month. Right. That's unbelievable. So you're constantly, like when you finish, you're recovering and then you're tapering. So there's no in between like really long running. I think I did once or twice a couple of 20 mile long runs, but there was no reason to. It was like 10 miles at

tops when I'm going up the mountains. I mean, that's kind for people that are racing ultras all the time. The races are the training, right? Exactly. In between you're maintaining or you're tapering, or you're just trying to absorb the fitness that you garnered as a result of the race. Yep. I mean, it's just amazing that you, and are you the first woman to do, what's it called? The triple crown? Triple crown. No, but I think of the oldest woman, oldest female. I mean, I'm not 53. Yeah. So there was, yeah, there, there was no other women in their fifties doing the triple. I mean, they started doing it, but not everybody finished.

So last year, two women finished. And I believe this year, seven of us, seven females finished. Finished all three. All three of them. So it only started last year. Well, the Moab 240 has gotten a lot of press in the last year or so because of Courtney DeWalter, like just crushing everybody. She's insane at Tahoe. I don't know what you saw. I haven't been following it that closely. So this year she was in the lead pretty much the whole time at Tahoe, and then she started having stomach problems and only lost the lead within the last 10 miles. So she was racing another guy the whole entire time. So did she end up second then? Yep, and she blew the woman's course record out of the water.

So she was faster than the year before? Yeah, they both broke the course record. So he broke the overall course record, and her time was still an overall course record too. What's going on with her? She's just a freak? She's amazing. I mean, she is. She's so sweet too. I know. I've heard interviews with her and she's like, oh, I don't know. I just go and I run. She doesn't wear a watch. She doesn't have a coat. She's just one of those amazing, talented, gifted athletes. And she won Western States this year too as well. And she's just one of those amazing, talented, gifted athletes. And she won Western States this year, too, as well.

And she's at this big yard, I forget the name of the race, this weekend. And she's going to try to do 300 miles there. So it's a four and a half mile loop. Every hour on the hour, you start the loop. And you go as far as you can. So you do the loop and then you wait an hour and then you start again? You wait to the top of the hour. Right.

So every hour you run for. Every top of the hour. And that's the aggregate time? What's that? So it's the aggregate time. Yeah. Oh, wow. So it's interesting.

So that involves speed in a way that most ultras don't. And how are you going to sleep? Right. And how are you going to, like, you have to, like, wait in between. And so it'll be interesting to see how well she does. That's unique. But I heard she was going for, like, you have to, like, wait in between. And so it'll be interesting to see how well she does. That's unique. I heard she was going for, like, 300 miles. So, because a friend of mine, Maggie, is doing it, and she's going for 240.

So, but it'll, yeah. Unbelievable. Well, yeah, and with the explosion of the sport, you're seeing, you know, the higher caliber athletes getting into it. And she's dominating, like, nobody's business right now. Exactly. Which is really cool to see. And I think she's still a schoolteacher? Yep.

She should be, somebody should just pay her a lot of money for her to do like that. You know with our sport, though, there's not, you don't make, it's like not very many people make money. I mean, you make money promoting product, and that's what I'm doing a lot of now since I've been around for so long. Right. And I have my book out. So, you know, people pay you to use their products and to promote it if you like it. Uh-huh. Well, your resume is insane. Like I can't even keep, you've done so many races, it's impossible to, it's not like we can go race by race through this. Like,

I mean, all right, let's see, over a hundred, hundred milers. Yep. The first US woman to do that. Only four people have run over 100. No, there's a lot now. Oh, there is. Okay. So that's outdated. So there's probably like 10 or 12 now. Yeah. There's at least four women now. 250 plus ultras. Is that correct? What else? The triple crown 200s, 260 marathons, I've done a lot of solo stuff. The triple crown 200s, 260 marathons, 137 hundred milers, numerous records.

The big thing that you did, though, was you recorded the fastest known time for the- Muir Ramble. The Muir Ramble, right? 310 miles in seven days. And it was actually 324 miles. Right. And you went longer. Did you get lost or what happened?

It's just a lot of route finding. The people that wrote the guidebook, they haven't been out on that course in ages. They did it in 2006. So after we finished it, I told them, because nobody had run it, and they were like, oh, you know, there had been fires in the area. And so a lot of the sections... It's not super well marked. Yeah. So we gave her the beta. Like, you need to change it on your website. So if anybody else goes out there. And I actually met another woman doing it when I was out there. She saw a vehicle that said,

Muir Ramble Route, Dirt Diva, Catra. And so her and her partner were driving by because they were going to go camp that night because she was doing so many miles a day. And they pull up and they said, who's doing the Muir Ramble Route? And then I was like, oh, I am. And she was like, really? She goes, I am too. And I said, yeah, I'm running it. I'm

going for the fastest time. So did you run together? No, she wasn't running it. She was walking it. She was from San Francisco and she started where she lived because it starts in San Francisco and you take the ferry to Oakland and that's when you start your journey the way he went. And she was just doing like 15 miles a day. So, and she was a school teacher and just something to do and to talk about in school. And she went back. So, so yeah, so I met her and there's been people that have biked it and a couple, there was only about three people that have hiked it. So I was like, I'm going to do this. Because like, I'd never heard of the Ramble. Like, so what is it? Why is it so obscure?

So it's, the route is actually the route that John Muir, when he arrived in the United States in California, he decided I wanted to go to Yosemite. And the way that everybody was going, they were going through like Merced or Sacramento and taking wagons and this, that, and the other. But he goes, I want to go to the wild way, the way that people aren't going to see all things wild. So he asked somebody, which direction is the wild way? And they said, what? And he said, I don't want to go where the people are. So he started walking when he arrived in Oakland and started kind of along the bay, kind of where I live. And I actually use my house as like one night sleep station. And so, yeah, he just went along this route and came in Yosemite through

like the back way, not the traditional way. And so there's a lot of old roads that I was on that you still see pieces of pavement coming through, but now they're totally abandoned. Nobody uses these. And it was really cool being on there because you know he was on these roads too. So they made the course as close as possible to the original way he walked. Of course, you can't go on the freeway. And there was a couple of places where you were going up fire roads, which were gnarly, like straight up and straight down, straight up and straight down.

But they didn't want to put you on the freeway, of course. And this is different from the John Muir Trail. Exactly. I've done that. I have the yo-yo record. The big thing is the yo-yo record that blows people's minds. 424. Nobody's attempted to break it after all these years.

Don't know why. So you basically did the whole John Muir Trail. And then he turned around on top of Whitney. And turned around and went back. And you go from, I know you end up at the, do you end up at like the base camp at Mount Whitney? Or do you go all the way to the peak? No, to the hut. You go to the hut.

And that's where it starts. Even if you start from the Whitney side, if you're starting your John Muir Trail, even though you go up 11 miles, you don't count that. Your start is at the hut. Right. So once you're 11 miles at the highest point is where you start. But I started from Yosemite, went to the top, and then turned around and went back. Did you plan on doing the double, the yo-yo? Or was it just you got there and you're like, I feel good.

I'm going to keep going. I know. Born to run, he acts like I just made up up I was going to turn around. I'm like, who does that? Because that's how I first became familiar with you, through Born to Run, which I read before I got into this whole world. And that kind of put you on the map and made a lot of people aware. And it was before all of our social media too. So nobody, you didn't have all the Facebook and anything like that. So you knew who these people were. And then when the book came out and then there was Facebook later on, people were able to Google like who these characters were in the story.

So, yeah, and I definitely want to do a triple. I know my double is going to be broken. And so now I live in Bishop and it's close enough to where I can do it. And I tried to do it a few years back and my uncle had passed away. So I had to bail out at one. So I'm going to definitely do a triple. So Bishop's like in passed away so i had to bail out at one so i'm going to definitely do a triple so bishop's like in the middle of nowhere no it's no it's like right next to mammoth it's a 395 thousands of people drive through it their day they get like a thousand

truckers driving through right so it's very popular trails everywhere though everywhere it's like climbers are there in the winter because of all the bouldering, buttermilk boulders and all of this. And I have trailheads. Like 19-minute drive from my house, I'm up at 9,000 feet. And from there, I can go right out on the John Muir Trail. I can go 10 miles up, 10 miles down, and I'm on the John Muir Trail. That's pretty cool. But you just recently moved there, right?

Where were you living before? So the Bay Area, Fremont, near San Jose. So I was born and raised there and lived there pretty much all my life. I was working at Whole Foods for 19 years and I'm still seasonal with them, but my boyfriend has been working for almost a year now with Sierra Life Flight. And so he's a pilot, not a helicopter, but airplane. And so when you live on the East side of Sierra, the ambulances can't get you to a hospital fast enough. So that's why we have air ambulance airplanes. Oh, I see.

That's interesting. Yeah, because we're three and a half to four hours from Reno and then four hours from L.A. So those are your closest major hospitals. I mean, we have a hospital in Mammoth and we have a hospital in Bishop. But if you need any significant anything, you have to— He's the dude. He's the dude, yeah. He comes and gets you.

Yep. need any significant anything. He's the dude. He's the dude. He comes and gets you. Yep. And are you able to like make all this work on sponsor relations? Like do you, can you make a living doing this? How does that work? No. That's a shame. You should be able to. Well, you know, with my book, I'm hoping to make some money on that and speaking and stuff like that will definitely help. And I am, I mean, with a lot of my sponsors, you know, it's like they give you discount codes and the more you sell the, you know, if people are going through your avenues and selling, buying stuff, you get money. So I'm actually making money. Yeah. I guess I could live on it. I mean, my boyfriend,

if I lived by myself, I'd be living on the street. So no. Well, I want to drill into the details of the racing and the training and how you live your life and all of that. But I want to go back to the beginning because what got you here is so bananas. So you were born and raised in Fremont? Yes. And walk me through, give me a little taste of your childhood. So I was such a girly girl. Didn't even like getting dirt on me. Always in dresses and patent leather, little shiny shoes. And so my parents, I love dance.

That was my thing when I was growing up. I love taking dance lessons, tap dance, things like that. And my parents always thought I was very quiet. And I was always like with a book and kind of hiding and to myself. And they're like, well, we need to put her in sports because she's like in team sports,

so she's more interactive with other kids, which I had no desire to do, and I hated sports altogether. But my father was a soccer coach, and my brother played soccer who was younger. So I was forced into playing soccer and softball, and I absolutely hated it. I hated running. I didn't want to run.

I didn't want to sweat. I didn't want to get dirty. I hated it all. I just wanted to take dance lessons, but my parents felt this need to put me in these other sports. And were you always like an extrovert? Like were you, what were you, in high school? Like where, who'd you hang out with? Oh, well. Yeah. No? That's all another thing. You weren't like rocking the crazy looks from the get-go? No, not when I was a little kid, but no, once I hit junior high school, that's when I started changing. So what happened?

I started using drugs and drinking and things like that. I had two older sisters, so I always was kind of with the older crowd, hanging out with their friends. But yeah, we moved when I was going into junior high school, so I just kind of got into it with the wrong crowd. Like right off the bat, the kids that I met. And so I started smoking. What was going on at home that you think led you to that? Nothing. My parents were great. Yeah. There was nothing going on there. My father was the president of Fremont City Soccer. I mean, my brother played sports and I just was doing my

own thing. Yeah. My sister had gotten married. You just had this wild streak that you had to explore. It was coming out. I was coming into my own. Instead of my two older sisters were gone now, so I'm like my own person. So junior high, that started happening? Yep. Started going out to discos, dance clubs, that whole thing. And was it just booze at that time? Yeah, pretty much smoking cigarettes and smoking pot once in a while and mostly drinking and just going, like I said, to discos back then. Yeah.

Well, soccer dad probably wasn't too happy about that. Well, he was in his own thing with my brother in the sports, and I was playing soccer at the time too. So it wasn't until I got into junior high school that I was just like, this is what I want to do. And my father passed away when I was 17. And so that just put me like getting crazier. Right. You know, because my mom now had to deal with me and my brother. My sisters were already older and they were married and had their own families. And so my brother then, my brother was with my father when my father died. So then my brother-

How did he die? It didn't, he didn't take it very well. And it took, he ended up going into recovery when he was like 15 because he watched my father die, tried to save my father from having a massive heart attack at 49 years old. Yeah. And it was like he was healthy. He ran, but he smoked. And he had quit smoking, but he ate meat and stuff like that.

But it's not genetic. His parents lived till their 90s. So that set your brother off. That set my brother off, kind of set me off. And then my mom was trying to focus on my brother. And I was just going off on my own and then decided not to go to school. And my mom's like, you need to do something because you can't just not go to school. You need to pick something you want to do.

So I went to cosmetology school. And so I was doing that and still partying,, going to clubs and- Living at home still though? Yep. Living at home still. And then I moved out after I graduated from cosmetology school and got a job and started, I was living with a boyfriend of mine and his family. And we were in and out of, you know, it was a horrible relationship back and forth, breaking up, you know, just, he was in a band and I decided. Of course, drummer? Exactly. Was he a drummer? No, he was a lead singer. So then we kind of, you know, he was cheating on me and then I met somebody else and I started cheating on him. And so it was just easy

enough to leave that relationship. And so we had this huge blowout and I ended up with this other guy and this is not when I was on drugs. I was drugs. I was just drinking a lot and, you know, drinking a lot and getting drunk, you know, when I'd go out. And so this other guy was a speed dealer. And at the time, I didn't know that because all my friends were like, don't tell her that you do that. And I would notice people coming in and out of the house and leaving. And then finally one night we were going to L.A. to go to a goth club

because I was really big in the goth scene at this point. And, you know, they were all doing speed and I was like I'll do some you know and so started from there and it was just like on the weekends I would do it and then at one point I was I went to a Lollapalooza with a friend and she's I felt like shit I'm she's like just do some more and I'm like no no no I only like to do it on the weekends. And she goes, you'll feel better. And I was like, okay, so I'll do it. So that moment was the turning point for me to be like a major addict with it. So when you say speed, are you talking about meth?

Meth, yeah. So smoking meth or snorting it? Yeah. And my boyfriend at the time was shooting it up, but I didn't even pretend like I didn't know. Yeah, you knew. Because I wanted my drugs. I didn't know what he was doing. You just tried to pretend like, know. Yeah, yeah. Because I wanted my drugs. I didn't know what he was doing. You knew, but you just tried to pretend like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

In fact, I was so into the drugs that I would pretend that I was buying it for somebody else and use my own money to buy more from him. He gave me so much a day, but then I was doing my amount that he was giving me and buying more from him. Right. Wow. I know. And at the time, were you partying in Fremont or were you going to San Francisco? Yeah, I was in San Francisco and San Jose. What clubs were you going to?

Just all the goth clubs that are there, Drug 6. I mean, they just had all these fun things. So what was it about the goth scene that you connected with? Yeah, I just loved the music. Like, what's that world like? I don't know anything about that. Very, you know, dark, negative, depressing. Yeah, a lot of brooding.

Very depressing. I used to come drive to LA a lot because we'd be awake all night. A lot of the cure. Yeah. But those guys never even did drugs. No, I know. So it's like, look at these bands. But my boyfriend was in a band at the time, so he was the lead singer for a band.

What was it called? His band was called Flesh A Go-Go. And they were opening for, God, I'm trying to remember. They opened for My Life With The Thrill, Kill Colt a few times. And so it was all that industrial kind of goth music. Yeah. And what was the experience like of doing meth for the first time? It was like doing a bunch of coffee. Like just, you know, it was like, I felt like I could conquer the world. Like when you do it, you're like, oh, you know, just chatty, like how I am now. Like confidence.

Yes. Good energy. Yeah. In the beginning. And then you just want to keep doing it, right? Yeah. Like you stay up for three days or whatever. I'm like, oh, I'm going to make stuff and get crafty and make all these. I was always making it.

Clean your house and things like that. I was making outfits, like killer outfits. People were just so impressed with what I was whipping up. And I didn't know anything about anything and just started sewing and making really cool outfits. I always wanted to have the coolest outfit on in the club. So that was my thing. And what's the coming down part of that feel like? Like you just get depressed.

And if you're already suffering from mental illness, which I didn't really know at the time, but I had a lot of that going on, You just got to keep doing it to stay above that so you don't have that come down. So I remember at one point my boyfriend wanted to quit, and I was like, oh, fuck no. I can't quit. That means I would have to quit, and I'm not quitting. You're not quitting, yeah. So I even came to a realization one day just like looking at myself, this is my life. This is how it has to be. You delude yourself into thinking it's sustainable when it's not.

When it's not. Now, in the beginning, it's fun. But once you really, truly become an addict, then there's no fun anymore. You're just chasing your drugs. It's a job. You're just chasing it. Yeah. And when I watch shows about people like that, I just think, God, I was right there. I understand that. And it's sick. It's a sick world. Did you get to that place where you're stealing it and lying to people and all that kind of thing? I had a job.

I worked in a hair salon, so I always had a job. You were always able to buy it on the up and up? But we were selling it. Yeah. So we were small dealers getting it and selling it to our friends. And then, obviously, somebody told told on us and they didn't want to turn on their dealer because that was the big guy. So they said that he had got it from us. So the cops and him made the phone call and I answered the phone and did the sell over the

phone. So two days later, knock, knock, knock, busting in the door comes the police. And that becomes like your moment of reckoning, like your bottom with the whole thing. Going to jail. I want to work my way up to that, but I'd still, I want to know more about this phase of your life. Like when you kind of, when I was doing a little bit of research and due diligence on you, I mean, there's a lot of, you know, it paints this picture of a tremendous amount of chaos. There's like, there's incidents of sexual abuse, emotional abuse, a string of very unhealthy, abusive relationships. There's eating disorders thrown into there. There's OCD. It's a perfect mixture of all kinds of childhood and psychological trauma that

contributes to it. That's all driving you towards this moment where you end up in this jail cell. Yeah. And so I was sexually abused as a child by a family friend, and I kept that inside all my life. And my parents even asked, did he touch you in such a way? And when you're a little kid and somebody tells you and you respect them and look up to them, like, you better not say anything, something bad's going to happen to you. So then you're stuck. You lie to your parents, and then you have nowhere to go. And that kind of, I think, set everything. How old were you? I was nine.

And a family friend or a relative? Family friend. I was a relative. But he was always around our house. He was my oldest sister's friend. He was in her wedding and close friend. He was always at our house. And it only happened the one time, but that was, that's enough to change your life. And what's it like carrying that secret

around for so long? You know, shame, you're, you're scared to, and as you get older, it's just like, oh, you know, it's comes up, you think about it, you, you know, trauma comes up in life. And I, the, I just remember when I got clean and sober and when I finally was able to tell my mom was the first time in my life I felt so at ease. Like knowing that I was able to tell her finally after she had asked me when I was younger and I lied in line. She's like, why didn't you, you know? And it's like she just didn't understand. And I said, you don't understand. And when I told her when I was like 27 or whatever.

27 or whatever. You've been like sober for like, what, like 25 years? 24 years. It's going to be 25 years in June 24. So I have to do something really big. So 96? 94. 94. Wow. Yeah. Long time. But what is the, like when you now with perspective and that much time clean and sober, when you look back on that incident of sexual abuse, like how do you think about how that fueled like you're using? Like what is the relationship between the drug use and also like seeking out, you know, like the sort of expression of like unhealthy, you know, behaviors as a result of like harboring that shame and feeling like you can't tell anyone about it. So, yeah, I mean, it was a constant like hiding it. So if I drank and I was going to be with somebody and had a boyfriend and had to have sex, it's like if you're drunk or you're not aware of what's going on, it somehow feels better. Like you're not, you know, thinking about what happened to you. Because you, I mean, you must have had intimacy issues. Like you're not trusting people.

All the time. All that kind of thing. All my life. You still, yeah. Not now, no. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now my boyfriend's so awesome. No, as an adult, I'm like, you know, if people, well, I was married and he cheated on me.

So I'm like, if people are going to cheat, they're going to cheat. They got an issue with themselves. You know, if they can't just say, hey, I don't want to be with you anymore, that's perfectly fine. I'm a big girl. I can accept it. But because of his alcohol and drug abuse and whatever, that's. Well, it's weird how childhood trauma manifests itself later in life through the repetition of the pattern. It does.

You suffer this trauma and you would think psychologically you would do everything in your power to move away from that type of social dynamic, but you seek it out because for whatever bizarre reason, there's a strange comfort in that or a familiarity. I think so too. Just like I said, when I was marrying my ex-husband, he's nice. I mean, I don't want to say anything bad about him, but he wasn't for me, but he smoked pot and he drank a lot. It's like, why would I go with somebody like that? Why would I marry somebody like that? People were in shock. I mean, I met him in Yosemite. He was a climber and he just had this

personality, like charming, fun. And it was right after my mom had passed away. And it just like, I connected with him. I just thought he was like so fun and this, that, and the other. And 24 days later, I married him. So, and I was clean and sober. There was nothing wrong with me. And then- And how long have you been sober at that point? Well, that was in 2002. So I got sober in 1994. So I just wanted to save him, I guess. I mean, I don't know. Yeah, it's something in the unconscious mind that attracts you to that person.

And often those negative behavior patterns aren't necessarily manifest originally. You're just like, oh, they're awesome. They're nothing like that other person that I'm trying to get away with. And then you're six months in and you're like, oh, they're exactly like that person. Yeah. He was definitely a different person. And then he progressively, I mean, if he was not living in Yosemite and climbing, that was, he was like just drinking and getting drunk and just, he couldn't stand being like controlled in a controlled environment. He needed to be climbing.

He was a dirt bag. He needed to be in the dirt. Right. And if you have an eating disorder, meth is awesome. Oh, yeah. Right. But my eating disorder really came up big time after I got clean and sober because just trying to find some control in something.

And like I became vegan and it was just like that was a good excuse to why I was getting really thin and so that went on for a few more years I mean all my life pretty much you know it's like the the pictures in the magazines as all of us women know like growing up it's like you have this image of somebody which is not true because I have friends that are models and they don't look like those pictures except for when there's a picture of them you know it's like there's so much airbrushing and things going on. And I like that nowadays they're using more normal people, average people, you know, so we don't have to show our young girls, like, this is how you should look when it's fake, you know.

It's changing, but there's, you know, a lot of it is the same. Exactly. And I think that that speaks to something that I see a lot of, which is if you're an addict, an alcoholic, or you have some kind of unhealthy predisposition, you can latch on to a seemingly healthy thing like, I'm going to be a raw vegan, or I'm going to be an ultra runner, pick, you know, behavior X, and you can shade your unhealthy behavior under the umbrella of something that people will socially approve of when your relationship to that thing is very unhealthy. Yeah. Right?

So you can, there's tons of people in recovery and ultra running. There's a reason for that. Exactly. You know what I mean? Like you can be very addictive in your training. And that's been something that I've had to, you know, evolve into like, am I, is, what is my relationship with this? Am I hiding? Is this making me a better person? Or am I just using this as an outlet because I can't use drugs and alcohol anymore? Well, we kind of need something to take the place.

We do. And it is healthy, but it can become unhealthy when it rolls. Yeah, yeah. And you can be a raw vegan when it's really not about that. It's because you have an eating disorder. And this is a good way to tell everybody that you're doing something good for yourself when you're actually not. Yeah. And so how do you, what is your history with all of that then? So the eating disorder was

early on when my, when I was running. So it just made sense. Like, oh, she's getting skinnier because I was already thin. And then you stop doing drugs and you start gaining. I was normal weight. It wasn't like I was overweight. And then I started running and I became vegan at the same time. So then I realized I can control this. I was eating like two apples a day. It was like ridiculous. That's how controlling I was with what I was eating and I wouldn't eat in front of people. And my mom's like- Two apples a day. And how much are you running? At that time it was early on, but I was still running like 80 miles a week. Yeah. Two apples a day. Exactly.

Yeah. I lived on apples. That's the Christian Bale diet from that movie, The Machinist, where he got down to like 100 pounds. Yeah. Well, if you want to get really thin. And then it got to a point where I was exercising so much, I was rollerblading to the gym one day and rollerblading back. And it was like 100 degrees out. And I like passed out when I got home. And my mom's like, what the hell is wrong with you?

Right. And I was like rollerblading, working out in the gym. And I was like, I don't know. And she's like, yeah, that's not good. So I went to the doctors and she was like, do you have an eating disorder? And I'm like, no, I'm vegan. Yeah, that's exactly what I'm talking about. And it wasn't until I started training for ultras that I actually met a guy on the trail. And he's like, you, you know, I was saying how I was going to do a 100-miler, and he goes, you can't do a 100-miler. He goes, you're too thin.

And I was like, what? And it's dawned on me at that point that, like, maybe there is something going on. And I had went to the doctors, and they saw, like, I had a heart murmur, and I felt like I was going to have a heart attack at some point. And then I'm, like, thinking about my dad. I'm like, shit, I'm going to die, you know. And so I kind of changed it and started reading more nutritional stuff, like about nutrition and supplements and, you know, having a different relationship with food,

like eating and taking supplements that were going to nourish my body without eating the junk, but still eating a ton more calories that I was eating instead of apples and a few things and eating more stuff like, you know, quinoa and adding other things. And, and I changed it, you know, I helped myself. I mean, and I did do a lot of reading up on it, like anorexia and stuff. And, and back then I was really self-help, you know, early on in recovery, reading every book I could. And I thought, yeah, this is, this is going to take me out. Like the drugs took me out and just reading people's stories and books. I had gotten a couple of books and and I was just like, yeah, I don't want this thing. What were the books that were-

I don't even remember the name of them, but it was a woman. Two of them were by women that wrote about their times of anorexia and stuff. It was in Barnes and Nobles. I just happened to be looking, and I got books on eating disorders. All right, so you make this meth sale over the phone, and you get busted, and you end up in jail. That was scary. Yeah.

How long were you in jail for? Less than two days, but I was in overnight, which I didn't think. The cop told me, oh, you won't be in overnight. And so when I'm going in, and I'm going through the process, and you're sitting in a lobby. I mean, I've never been to jail, so I was just thinking all bars in this. But it was like a waiting room at the airport or something. And this is just from what I can remember. It was in, it was a woman's correctional facility in Milpitas. So it was called Elmwood. And so in San Jose is where they took the men to that jail and then Elmwood was for the females.

And so there was a lot of interesting people in there. I just remember, you know, here's me all gothed out and, and just going in through the whole process and where they strip you down and just, they treat you like shit. I mean, cause you're a criminal, I guess, in their eyes. And I'm just like, I'm not supposed to be here really. And they're like, just get over here. You know, and the whole time I'm like, well, they're, they're, I'm not supposed to be here. They're going to let me out. They should be letting me out now. Yeah, don't you know who I think I am? Yeah, exactly.

And so even the guy that took my photo, so I worked in a hair salon in downtown San Jose. He was one of my clients. So that was just like. The guy who worked in the jail that took your intake photo? And I already knew he was working in the jail. Yeah, it was just like, oh, God. You know, just so embarrassing, you know, to have been going through this. And now here's a person that knows who I am and knows what I'm going through.

And it was a dark time. And so going in, like they hand me the clothing to put on. Like after, you know, I'm in there for several hours before they even do that. And I'm like, no, I'm not supposed to stay here. And they're like, yeah, you're going into whatever with the rest of the people. So you get your outfit on, your flip-flops, and nothing fit. It was all falling off of me. I was so skinny.

And march us all in. And I remember the cop telling me, he goes, if you do get in there, I'll make sure that they put you in a cell by yourself. So I did end up in a cell by myself. And so when I went into the, and I'm crying. I'm just like, I don't belong here. I don't belong here. And there's like, it's like a mirror. It's not really a mirror. It's a piece of sheet metal, you know,

because you don't want you to cut yourself, cut somebody with them, breaking a mirror. And so I'm just looking at myself in this thing and thinking, what am I, what am I doing here? I, how did I get here? This is, you know, my whole life, I'm just thinking, oh my God, this is not who I am. And so it dawned on me, I need to do something. I need to change. So I remember sitting on the bed and laying down and it's like these bully blankets. In fact, they use them at 200s and I will put those blankets on me. I'm like at the sleep station, I'm like, get the bully blanket away from me. I don't want to go to jail. That's an interesting full circle thing though. This is the same blanket, but my life is so

different. I hate them. I mean, I had a crew this time, so I'm in my car with my, you know, at the sleep stations with my sleeping bag on. No, those things freak me out. And there's times, like, literally, I'm freaked out. I'm like, get that thing away from me. But those are kind of cool God shots, too, because you're like, oh, this is, it's such a vivid, tactile, like, memory that takes you back. It does. That makes you remember where you came from. And know that I don't want to ever be there again.

Yeah. So I know what I need to do not to ever, ever be there. It's like a relapse dream. Yes. And you're awake. And everything's a relapse dream, and you're awake for 100 hours. Yeah. So you have this moment.

You make this decision. And so I— And that was it. Well, you know— decision, and that was it. Well, they assigned me a public defender, so I had to go to court right away. And so I got out the next day. What was the charge? So they were going to charge me with everything my boyfriend got charged for, selling, possession, like everything.

And he kept trying to take the blame, saying, no, she had nothing to do with it, although I was the one that sold it on the phone. But he was taking all the blame when they came in and raided the house and all that, and he showed them where—we cooperated. But he's like, just, you know, she's never been in trouble. You know, he had been in trouble before. And they saw that, and the judge saw that, and I was talking with my attorney, and he goes, he goes, usually they're going to charge the female with the same amount of crime as their boyfriend or whatever.

And he goes, but he goes, he might be nice to you and we'll see where you have a job you have, you know, you've never been in trouble. So with that, he went in front of them and said, you know, she has a job, she'll go into drug diversion and she'll go to meetings. And so then he said, okay, let's see, let's put her into an outpatient program, go to NAA every day, either one of them, and get the paper signed. And I was checking back every two weeks. And so I was going. And this went on for three months to six months. And then they finally, I was off a drug diversion after six months with no record.

They let all of that go. Oh, good. So no felony charge. Yeah. And they didn't try to roll you into trying to get somebody above you, like try to cut a deal? Well, no. See, that's why the guy that turned us in, he pretended like we were the bigwigs. We didn't. Yeah.

They couldn't do anything because Jason was going to tell them where he got it. So he was fine with going to jail. And he spent three months in jail and then three months house arrest. And he got his thing wherever they wipe your slate clean years later. I mean, he's been clean and sober for all these years too. So yeah. So court order to NAA. Yep.

How was that? Interesting. I was in downtown San Jose, so there was a lot of gang, ex-gang members in my meetings. You had to get that court card signed. Yeah. But I just was feeling like I did nothing. What I got arrested for was nothing compared to what these people see on a daily basis and how they were raised. But they're in recovery too and trying to better their self. But I was just like, my God, I can't even talk because I don't have, I'm just like this white chick that, so what? She got, you know, she's hanging out in the clubs and she got arrested.

Like my story didn't matter. And so. Did you, but did you embrace or accept the fact that you were an addict or an alcoholic or just somebody who got in trouble? No, no, I knew I was. And what's the, what's the And what's the relationship between the meth and the booze? Well, I stopped actually really drinking after I... I stopped drinking pretty much when I started doing meth because you don't really get drunk anyways and I'd rather do the meth. No, unless you want to go to sleep. But then after I did get arrested, I was drinking for a

little bit, a couple months after that until they were like, no, you're not supposed to drink at all either. So that's why from the time I got arrested until June 24th is my actually sobriety date because I was still drinking here and there when it went out on occasion. But I wasn't doing drugs. And clean and sober ever since. Yep, June 24th was my day. But like AA is not really your thing, right? No, you know, and I appreciate that people, that helps him. My brother goes to AA.

He's been off and on for years, back and forth into recovery. Now he's been in it for a long time. And it's a great tool, I would say. I think that's, you know, the main thing of starting my recovery was that. But then going to therapy really helped me more because I felt like I just had deeper issues. And, you know, I just, it's hard for me to sit around and just listen to the same stories over and over when I just want to move forward in life. And I like talking about my past because it helps people.

But it's like, I have so much more in front of me that it's like, here's what, this is what I did. Let's keep going. You know, let's talk about the future. Let's talk about good things we can keep doing. You know, it's like when people say, I want to do this, that, and the other, but I can't do it. And I, you know, I's talk about the future. Let's talk about good things we can keep doing. You know, it's like when people say, I want to do this, that, and the other, but I can't do it. And, you know, I'll wait a couple of months.

And I'm like, no, do it now. You might not be here tomorrow. You know, so. But it definitely helped me. But I just, you know, I prefer going to the mountains as my church and praying and just thinking. And that's where I do all my thinking. I like running alone and seeing so much. And, you know, I take something away every time I'm out in the mountains and just running even on the streets, like a bird or this,

that, and I just am grateful. That's your church. That's your AA meeting. Yep. It is. Yeah. It's interesting. Cause for me, I mean, that's a huge part of my sobriety and my recovery, but for me, like, that's not enough. Like, I still, like, I go to AA, you know, like, I'm part of the recovery community, and I think now people sometimes get confused. They know my story, and they think, like, oh, well, I put the drugs and the alcohol behind me, and now I'm just going to train, and, like, that's sobriety. And it's like, no, that's not, like, at least for me.

Like, I'm only speaking for myself. And it's like, no, that's not like, at least for me, like I'm only speaking for myself, I know from firsthand experience that I need a more structured program beyond that. That's a contributing factor that keeps me in line. But for me, I need to have a connection with a higher power. I need a spiritual program. I need to be of service to other alcoholics who are still sick and all of that, you know, or I'll go sideways pretty quickly. Yeah. And thank God I've never wanted to go sideways. Yeah. Good for you. More power to you.

Yeah. You know, I guess, and I look at me now and I think, well, that makes perfect sense because look at how much I get into something. It's like my mind goes and it's like, I ain't doing that anymore. That's it. But that's very alcoholic. You know that, right? That ability to focus, it's like harnessing the best of what it means to be like that kind of human being and channeling it in the right direction, right? I think alcoholics and addicts are, look, they're incredibly crafty and focused people.

Like when you're, as you said, like when you're using like, there is no way you're not gonna find that meth that day. Yeah, exactly. No matter what it takes, it's going to happen. And then if you can take that level of intensity and place it in a healthy direction, then the world explodes in a good way. Yeah. So, all right. So you get out, you're sober, you're doing the whole deal. When does the running creep in?

So the running doesn't start until two years later. So I'm working out in a gym. I'm getting healthy. So I'm doing things and, like I said, eating healthy. And it wasn't until— Did you do—when did the vegan thing precede? Vegan started right away. So actually, I became a vegetarian when I was nine.

We raised animals. So we didn't live on a farm. So, like I said, my dad always had stuff going on. So he bought, like bought nine head of cattle. My sisters were in FFA, which is Future Farmers of America. I was younger, so I was in 4-H. They put me in the 4-H program. I had a lamb, and we had the stairs.

Before I ended up getting the lamb, we had the nine head of cattle. Then they grew up, and they got sold. There was one still on the ranch, and I named him Charlie. My parents used to always say, don't name those. Those are not pets. Don't name those animals. Yeah, the more you personalize them. But we had a horse and stuff, and I was like, well, his name's Charlie.

He's white, and his name's Charlie, and that's what I'm calling him. And I'd go up to him and hug him and whatever. So then all the other ones were gone, and Charlie was still there. And then he went away. And the day, like within a few days, I come home from school and my brother opens up the freezer. We had a meat freezer in the garage and he's all, look, Charlie's in the freezer. And that was it. And that changed. You were nine. And it was devastating to me when I see, it's so funny. I was just at the fair and I saw saw these girls with little lambs and stuff, and I was like, oh, my God, they don't understand what's going to happen to their animal.

You raise these. So, yeah, Charlie was in the freezer, and I told my mom, I'm not eating anything out of there. I'm not eating a hamburger ever again. And she didn't force me to. I mean, she was Italian, so she would take the sausage out or whatever, the meatball. So even though there was meat sauce in there or whatever, it was a connection that I had.

But as long as there was no meat, a hamburger, like I didn't eat a hamburger when I went to McDonald's. I would eat fish and chicken growing up. So then my lamb, I was eating lamb still, I think, until that point to the following year when I went to the fair once again, had my little lamb, auctioned it off. I was all excited. And this boy said to me you know they're getting somebody's gonna eat them and I was like no they're not and then I thought oh my god Charlie

my lamb like I thought somebody was just gonna keep him for a pet like I did you know it wasn't a connection because I just loved animals 10 and so I just went off I just started bawling and I ran to the pen where he was and I just laid in there and my dad came and found me and he's like, no, no, no, they're going to keep him for a stud. And I think, you know, I don't know the real story, but I'm sure my dad told the guy, like, go tell her that you're not going to eat him. You know? I don't know.

So he came over, he goes, no, no, we're going to keep him for a stud. And I was like, I don't know what that is, but. Right. So there went Lamb. He gets to breathe. So at a young age, I was very aware of stuff. And I'm very sensitive towards animals growing up. And, you know, I had a duck and my brother killed my duck.

And just like, you know, he's a wild dog. Well, your relationship with Truman right now is like on a whole other level. I love him. Most dog owners are super bummed that you didn't bring him. I know. Now I'm feeling really bad. I should have. For people that are listening or watching. Well, they're probably mad that you didn't bring him. I know. Now I'm feeling really bad. I should have. For people that are listening or watching.

Well, they're probably mad that I didn't bring him. Yeah. They're like, we're, I mean, your dog's like famous. Yeah. More famous than me. So Truman's like 12 or 13 now. How old is he? He's 12 years, seven months.

So he's getting up there. And I've only had him for six and a half years. I rescued him. Right. And what kind of dog is he? He's a miniature dachshund. Dachshund. And he's run ultras. Five 50Ks. Five 50Ks on those tiny little legs. So he has four inch legs,

nine pounds, can run 50K starting at six and a half. Or he ran his first 50K at seven. And you trained him like you would train a human, right? Exactly. Just start very slow. And he just would follow me. It's like, I can't believe a little dog like that can run a 50K. And there's people emailing me that have wiener dogs. Do you get people angry at you? Like this is abuse or something? Well, they have, but I have, I mean, my doctor, my vet is, he's like vet approved. And I have friends that are ultra runners that are vets. And they said, we are taught in veterinarian school that these guys have all these back issues. And're like we never think they could run because they have back issues well

the back issue can't happen from running it happens from jumping and it makes perfect sense to have them run low to the ground keeping them thinner and just getting them checked and it's like he's just happens to be an amazing little guy and he has has always been vet approved. I've had full body x-rays. I mean, it's not like I'm just some crazy lady letting my dog run. And I knew that people would come out of the woodwork and try to say stuff. And it's like, I got proof. I have vets that approve of him doing this. And now he has gotten older and he has a heart murmur. So we've tapered him back to 10 miles at the most. 10 miles at the most. Yeah. And with those tiny little legs, I mean, if you broke it down by strides, I mean, the 50K is probably like a 200 miler.

Well, that's what I think, yeah. You know what I mean? And what's the deal with the, you put like ski goggles on him? Yes, well, he's had eye injuries and thousands of dollars, like his surgery on his eyes because he's low to the ground,

running trails, pokey things are right on the trail, eye level. So he had, one of his corneas got really scratched and he had to have surgery on it. And that's the eye that usually has problems. And he has eye drops for the rest of his life because he doesn't make tears. And so my vet's like the best thing you can do, because I swear like every six months, it was like a major eye issue. And the last one was last year at Tahoe 200. We were sweeping the course. Me and him were pulling the ribbons and he was with me and I had these trekking poles and it had a sharp point and he ran into the point and scratched his eye again.

And it took three months for it to heal. So finally we're like, okay, we got to, got to do, you know, he started with the regular little dog ones that were individual like glasses and he would wear them. you he the minute you stop they were off and they were ruined and so a friend of mine actually she's like there's this company called rec specs that makes these really cool goggles but at the time they didn't make extra small they were only making small so they were way too big not for dogs though they are for dogs oh they are specifically designed for dogs oh yeah like a lot of because this is a thing law enforcement dogs wear them yeah it's a lot of law enforcement dogs wear them.

Yeah, it's a thing. Truman's the only dog that I've ever seen wear a ski mask. Look them up. I know. You know,

because dogs get damaged from the sun just like we do. That's why you hear so many dogs of having like glycoma and these certain things.

Yeah, cataracts. Cataracts from the sun and stuff and it makes sense but like I said, he's always gotten scratched and so these are so much better.

He doesn't have the gunk, like I was constantly cleaning gunk. And he likes wearing it? Yeah, he doesn't mind. If I stop, then he wants them off when he's done. So he knows when they come on. I won't put them on a road run, because it's like, let them not have to wear them.

But definitely on the trail, there's so much debris that gets in his eyes. And do you have a leash when you're running with him? Or does he follow you? So when we're off trail, we don't need to, like on places where you don't need to have a leash. Nope. He's not on leash.

Yeah. On the trails. And what happens when you have the occasional like rattlesnake encounter or? He's always behind me. So he doesn't, he's not ever been one to run like way in front of me. So, which is good. Cause most people are like, what do you do? And I'm like, we've never had that problem.

He's like beeline straight towards it at rattlesnake when I jumped out of the way. I'm like, drop it, drop it. And finally, he looked at me, and I was able to grab him. He was almost on top of one that was curled up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That would have not been good because he's so little. And if he gets bit, I mean, there's anti-venom, but in the Bay Area where I was at, it was like 40 minutes away for the anti-venom for the dogs.

Around here, I'm sure you guys have it. Yeah, but it's still, I mean, we lost a dog to rattlesnake bites. So sorry. I know. I mean, it's serious if that happens. But I think that's totally cool. Like I remember, it reminds me, one time I did the Alcatraz swim. Oh, the shark fest.

This was like a long, long time ago. And the guy, the organizer of it, I think it was on New Year's Day, like on the coldest day or whatever. Of course. But the organizer at the time, if memory serves me, had a black lab. And apparently this lab, his favorite thing was to do the swim. And he would do the swim from Alcatraz with everybody. And he would beat half the field. And he was so excited, like running around in circles.

And then he'd swim up onto the beach and run around and like lick everybody. Like it was like he was like on fire. And who would have thought like it's supposed to be, oh, you know, these prisoners could never make it out of Alcatraz. They'd die. And like the dogs like out there just like beating half of these swimmers out there. That's amazing. Yeah.

I mean, animals are pretty amazing. If they find a passion and love like we do, they can do it. Yeah. And like I said, I've never got to a point where Truman has laid down and been exhausted. And said, I can't go anymore. Yeah. Now, I mean, granted, if Courtney owned him, he would have probably been dead. Right. So I'm't go anymore. Yeah. Now, I mean, granted, like if Courtney owned him, he would have probably been dead. Right.

So I'm not like pushing him like that. Have you ever been in a race though where he's like, I can't go anymore. Nope, never. And you have to drop out or whatever. No, no, no, no, no. He's running in a race when he gets a bib on and I take him off leash. He's running with the other runners like in front of me. And they're like, oh no, the wiener dog's beating us.

You know, that's when he runs in front of me. Because he keeps thinking I'm up there. And then he's like, oh, that's not her. Where did she beating us. That's when he runs in front of me because he keeps thinking I'm up there. And then he's like, oh, that's not her. Where did she go? Where is she coming? So, yeah, when he gets a bib on, he knows that's a different thing, that we're in a race. That's so interesting. It's funny.

All right. So where does the vegan thing come in then? Where do you make that switch? So I was vegetarian already before I got clean and sober and decided the day that I quit doing drugs that me and my friend Katrina were talking about, oh, we're going to go vegan. And when we were on drugs, we'd have these conversations about being vegan. So, yeah, exactly. So that was the perfect time. I said, you know, I'm not doing drugs anymore.

I'm going vegan. So that's when it all started. The same day that pretty much I quit, you know, doing drugs, I quit eating meat. What was that decision about for you though? Just to get myself healthy again. Almost like a purification. Exactly. Like I'm not doing that toxic stuff. I'm going to get clean and sober and I'm going to eat good. And I'm glad I did. That helped. But you know, there's unhealthy vegan. There's eating a lot of sugar and crap that is not so

healthy. And back then it was mostly like you didn't have really almond milk or stuff like that. It was mostly soy. And I have a major intolerance with soy. Like I get major stomach issues from a lot of soy. I can't do it. So I try to avoid that. And back then it was like mostly soy, everything was soy, tofu, soy. And it's like now we're, it's so wonderful. We have all this plant-based, you know, beyond meat and like just great, like without soy in it or gluten and stuff like that. Yeah, it's come a long way. It's a lot different now. But it's also easier to be an unhealthy vegan with all the crazy, you know, you can get all the cupcakes and the whatever, you know. I got a bunch of pastries over at the Juicy Ladies. Right. Yeah. Well, Juicy Ladies, they have really super healthy food there. They do. I love that place.

It's good. So you do that and then, but it's still a spell before the running creeps in. Yeah, so two years. So I'm working out, doing my thing at the gym, and I went back to school. So I had never graduated high school. So I went through the adult school, and I could have taken— You're a cosmetologist at the time? Yeah, I was just working part-time. So I moved back home to Fremont from San Jose and working part-time,

and I decided I wanted to go back to school and get my high school diploma, just like a normal person, like sit back in the classroom. So I went through the adult program. I could have taken my GED and got over it and been out. But I thought, no, I'm going to go back like where I should have been. And so I was going to adult school and I was actually working at a bagel store, just part-time and then working in the salon part-time. And I was in a Barnes and Nobles and there was a flyer. Well, actually, let me backtrack. So I had this other little wiener dog I used to take for a walk because I've always had wiener dogs. Pre-Truman. Yeah, no Truman, pre-Truman. This was Oscar Meyer Wiener. Of course. I know. So I would take him on these three-mile walks.

And one day, I just, out of nowhere, I don't know what possessed me, but I'm like, I'm going to run. I'm going to run today. I'm going to go out for a run and not take him. So I went and I ran my little route three miles. And I was like, whoa, I ran, you know, and that was really cool. So I was in Barnes & Noble's and there was a flyer in the back of the store. And there was a flyer for like 5K, 10K. And I was like, oh, that's a 10K.

I'm going to run that 10K. I only ran once, three miles, and it was in two weeks. And I asked my mom, I said, do you want to walk the 5K? Because she walked every day. And she's like, yeah, I'll go. So a couple weeks after I started running, I entered this 10K, ran, like didn't know pace, thought I was going to pass out. I was still wearing all black in that phase, still got know pace thought i was gonna pass out i was still like wearing all

black in that phase still goth phase it was like hot out did you have like the all black hair and like white yeah like face and the whole thing and i was wearing all black and black shorts and black sweatshirt and whatever so i finished and i was like wow you know that was a big thing and so i got back to the vehicle and on our car, there was a flyer for the San Francisco marathon. And I was like, when is this? And it was like three months. I'm like, how far is a marathon? And it's far, it's like 20 miles. And I had to call up my friend, Kevin. I'm like, Kevin, do you know how far a marathon is? And he's like, yeah, 26 miles, 0.2 miles. And I said, I'm going to sign up for it. So I sent my check in. Cause that's like pre anything, computer stuff. So I sent it in and I had three months to change so I or train so I went into

the Barnes and Nobles got a book that said how to train for a marathon had to skip ahead to three months training program right and I read that I was you know okay Sunday nine mile run and so there was no GPS garments none of this of this. So I got in my little car, odometer, drove four and a half miles out and it was the gas station. And I was like, perfect, that's my turnaround tomorrow. And then I'll run back. So that's how I started my training from that book. First day, nine miles. Exactly. And just, I felt like I was, it was, you know, I never knew anybody other than my dad and my brother that had run. So none of my friends ran, and this was me just doing it for me,

like finding my own way. And so doing that, I was just like, wow. And like I said, I didn't know anybody that ran marathons, and my family and friends were like, whoa, you're crazy. But looking back on it now, what do you think that switch was that got flicked? Like, what is it about running that spoke to you? I think it was, it gave me confidence and it gave me a passion, something to strive for. So, and just, I needed something. Like the structure. Because I had no going out to nightclubs anymore. I mean, you're sober for a couple of years. Yeah. And I just felt, I assume you had to change your friends. Yeah. That's what

I'm saying. I was kind of alone. And so running made me not feel alone. Like it gave me something. It gave me a purpose and it made me feel good. And you finished that first marathon. I did. And it was like, I, my, I was sore. Yeah. Because now I think about it, when we're in the 200-mile races, we're like, remember when we ran our first marathons? Holy crap, like you couldn't walk. And like after 200 miles, I'm like a little stiff that day. Everybody's like, uh-uh, uh-uh, like right after they finish. But I go take an Epsom salt bath, then I come back to watch the finishers finish several hours later, and I'm like, they're like, you don't even look like you did anything. Right, right, right, right. That's amazing. It's weird how our body's just like. And running that marathon,

I think I read like you had to run past all these clubs you used to party. So I was running exactly past all the clubs and I was just like, wow. So each time I passed a place, I'm like, look where you are now. You know, it just gave me like this strength as I propelled myself forward, like look at you now. It's like, who would have ever thought when you were in there looking out on the road that you'd be running past all of this? And was there an idea like,

this is what I want my life to be about now? Or has it just been a natural progression of becoming more and more invested? I just knew it was gonna be part of my life. I wanted it to be part of my life, yeah. How did you know that? Like, what I just knew it was going to be part of my life. I wanted it to be part of my life. Yeah. And how did you know that? Like what was, what, what do you think it was? Even in the middle of that first marathon, I was planning my next one. I hadn't even got to the finish line, not even halfway. I'm like, I think I'll go to Honolulu. I want to do the Honolulu marathon. Yeah. That's special. Cause most people, I mean, that's unusual. Yeah. That's my mind

though. Like even like, Oh, I hope somebody puts on a 500-mile race. Candice, you need to come up with a 500-mile. A 500-mile? She's going to. Not then, though. No, but now. This is, like, now. But now.

Right. But had you ever heard of ultras? Like, when did you first discover that world? So the first year, I ran two marathons. And the second year, I decided I was going to run every marathon in California. And this is mine, not knowing anybody. Second year, I decided I was going to run every marathon in California. And this is mine, not knowing anybody.

And I actually started running some of them were trail marathons because at the time in California, there was too many to run. I couldn't have run them all. But a lot of them were on trails. And I thought, oh, this is kind of interesting. There's, you know, these trails that we're running on. And it was a lot harder than running on a road marathon. The very first one I did, I was like, this is way harder. There was no water stop every mile. It was like the guy that put on the trail marathon that I did for my first one was in the Marin Headlands. And it was like water every six miles out of a jug

and a thing of cookies, which I couldn't eat. I mean, they weren't vegan. So I was like, oh my God. And they told us in advance, you need to carry a water bottle. So I had like, oh, my God. And they told us in advance you need to carry a water bottle so I had to buy a waste thing. So getting through my first trail marathon, I met actually a guy that I was running with. And he was doing all the marathons in California. And he kind of became my mentor, this older gentleman. So we were running a lot of the same ones together. He was much faster than me. But on the trails, I could kind of keep up with him.

But road, he was faster. And this is like 99? No, this is like 99 90 this is in 97 okay yeah so then i started hearing people i was at a it was and i remember this vividly i was at a uh it was a marathon in morgan hill and i heard this lady linda who's actually a friend of mine now but she was rambling on that she had run because this is on a sunday she ran like a 50 mile or the day before and i was like fuck 50 miles she ran a 50 mile that she had run, because this was on a Sunday. She ran like a 50-mile the day before, and I was like, fuck, 50 miles? She's ran a 50-mile, and she's running a marathon today?

And she talks like she's funny. I've known her all these years, but she was going on and on and on. I'm like, how could she even be talking? She's running this marathon today. So I heard her talking about that, and then I thought, I'm going to run a 50K. It's only six miles more. I mean, come on. I'm running trails. at 50K. It's only six miles more. I mean, come on, I'm running trails. It sounds so much more impressive though. Yeah. So I signed up, I found like a 50K and actually the very first 50K, let me back that up.

So I called the race director because at the time you had to, it was in the back of like runner's world or whatever. There's no email and all of that. So there was one in Fremont called Ohlone 50K and this has 9,000 feet of climbing in it. And I was like, yeah, it's in Fremont. I'm going to run it because I live in Fremont. And I had never been up... 9,000 feet. I think I'd been up Mission Peak a couple of times at that point, a few times. And I knew it was hard, but I didn't know what was beyond that. It was a point to point. So it went out to DelVal. And so I called up the race director and I said oh i want to sign up for your 50k and he goes have you

run out there before and i said well i've been at mission peak and i'm doing marathons he goes hmm he goes you know it's really hard it's really remote and i said oh yeah and he goes well he goes how long have you been running for and i said a couple years and he goes and you want this to be your first 50k and i was like yeah i want to i've a couple of years. And he goes, and you want this to be your first 50K? And I was like, yeah, I want to. I've been at Mission Peak twice. And he goes, it's a lot harder than you think. And he kind of scared me. And he goes, I suggest for you to run Skyline 50K.

And that was an easier one at Lake Chabot. And I was like, okay, because he kind of scared me. And he was like, pretty much telling me not to do it. So I was like, okay, I'll go run that one. So that was, and at the time there was only like, I think there was maybe four 50 Ks in the Bay area. Now I can't even tell you hundreds. Right. And this is just in the Bay area where I lived. I mean, that whole scene had been around for probably a couple of decades, but it was still very much this micro subculture, people sleeping in tents the night before and just small groups of people.

It was hardly what we think of it. Oh yeah. Everything's a lot of rain sells out now. I mean, the loamy sells out. So I decided then, okay, I'll do this 50K. So I did the one at Lake Chabot. And at that point I had already run, I did this two 15 mile looped course. It wasn't part of the course. I mean, some of the miles was, but I wanted to feel confident that I can run 30 miles. So I did 30 miles before even the race came. And that was at a slower pace. I mean, race day, you're always pushing harder, you know, because you're wanting to get ahead of people. And, you know, you have nobody to push you when you're by yourself training and you're just kind of dilly-dally.

So I showed up. It was 105 degrees that day, super hot. I was not used to walking hills. And I'm seeing all these people right off the bat once we get off the road part. It was a steep hill, and they're all walking. And I'm thinking, what the heck are they walking? And people are like, you should probably walk right now. And there's lots of hills.

And is this your first ultra? And I'm like, yeah, but I don't need to walk. So all those people later on, of course, passed me. And they're like, see, you should have been walking. My legs, I mean, it was so hot. I didn't need to walk. Right. So all those people later on, of course, passed me. And they're like, see, you should have been walking. My legs, I mean, it was so hot. I didn't know about hydration. Didn't, you know, wasn't drinking right. Wasn't eating correctly.

Knew nothing. And I was just like, by the time I got to like, I think 27 miles, I was like, oh my God, like in a bad way. I'm like, am I going to even make it? Like I was scared I wasn't going to make it to the finish because my legs were so tight and just like, you know, dehydrated. And so, but I made it and I finished and I was like, oh my God, that was so hard. And then I was like, well, I'm going to do a 50 miler. So it just, and at that time, Ultra Running Magazine was the magazine. So you got, I got a copy at the finish of the 50K. So I didn't know anything about this magazine until I finished. And that's where it opened up. It was like,

all these races. Here's where the races are. This is my Bible to see where I'm going to go next. So I signed up for a 50 miler. And then I did another 50K. And this is all within a four-month period. And I got through this 50-mile race that was in Napa, and it was pouring rain, like horrible, horrible. I never ran in conditions like that. And they actually allowed you to drop to the 50K if you wanted to, and you were in the 50-miler. And I stuck it out. I said, nope, I'm going to do this, and I'm going to finish this, and then I'm going to run a 100-miler. So in the middle of it, I was just like, oh my God, what am I doing? If I can get through this, that means I'm tough enough and I can do this a hundred miles. So I got through the finish

and then decided to run a hundred mile race. And what are you learning about yourself along the way? Like what is running doing for you? So I'm learning that I am, I never looked at myself as being super strong or, you know, confident. I was always, you know, a little bit, I'm not so confident on what, if I can do it or if I can't. But my confidence was building and I was feeling like I could do whatever I set my mind to. And it took me a long time to learn that in life.

Like I always would put up blocks and put up doors and walls in front of me and not, just think I couldn't do it. And then being able to- And then not taking that risk. It's like, well, you're never really putting yourself on the line. Exactly. And so, and I remember, I'm going to backtrack to, me and my dad were watching when, you

know, way back in the day, they used to have Western States on Wild World of Sports. Did they? Yes. I didn't know that. And so my dad, he was a runner and he was like, come watch this. You know, there's these people running from Squaw Valley. And I knew where Squaw Valley and Auburn were because we used to go play soccer in Auburn, and we'd go to Squaw Valley to ski once in a while or go to the snow.

And he goes, they're running from Squaw Valley to Auburn. And I was like, yeah. I was like 12 or 14 at the time. And I was like, okay. I sat down, and I was like, okay. I was interested, but I remember that. I remember him talking about this Western Stays. And he was a runner, like I said.

He had did a marathon. And I was like, hmm, whatever. You know, and that was my thing. Okay, I'm going to go. Give me some money. I'm going to go to the store now. Right. But it was lodged in the back of your unconscious mind all those years.

Yeah, so knowing when I started running, after I did that marathon and then I did my 50K, I was like, I got to do this 100 miler. Like my dad, if he was alive, he'd be right here helping me do this thing. And, you know, I had heard what a 100 miler was vaguely just through that one chance, you know, on the TV. And so I was like, I'm going to do this. So I didn't know anything or anybody that ran. So I was like, I'm going to do this. So I didn't know anything or anybody that ran. And here I had already did my 150K and 250 milers and show up at the 100 mile race, knew nothing, didn't even have a light.

So me and at the time, my boyfriend Kevin, I'm like, shit, I got to go to Walmart or wherever to get a light. I need these lights for nighttime. I wasn't even thinking. That's how like clueless, clueless I was. And no nighttime running. And I was like, okay. And at the time I got bike lights and they had like the bigger batteries, those diesel batteries. So I'm showing up and getting all this new stuff to use. And at the time I was eating a lot of baby food because it was easy to digest when I was doing ultras. And I thought I read up, somebody ate baby food. I'm going to put baby food in my drop bags and jars of almond butter

or whatever. At the time, they didn't have squeezy packets of baby foods. It was glass jars. Just the cans of it, right. And they were broken in my drop bags. Yeah, because they're not very gentle with drop bags. So that's what I used as fuel. I think

I had gel at the time. There was a couple of gel companies, but I, and Clif Bar, and that was it. And I- For the whole time. Yeah. I didn't know the right nutrition. I hadn't met anybody doing these hundreds and 50 milers really to be able to figure this out. Well, it's, the trajectory is pretty traditional. Like, okay, 10K marathon, 50K, 50 miler. And then it's like, okay, 100 miler, like the jump from 50 miler to 100 miler. It's big. Like people think of those as being kind of in the same world, but those are, I mean,

you're doubling the distance. You are. You know, it's like, it's a crazy leap and it's a very different thing doing 100 versus a 50. That's what, I mean, back then there wasn't a lot of 100Ks. So there are 100Ks around, but back then there was like maybe four to five in the United States. So you had to go that leap. That was your leap. There was no like in between like they do now. And what is, tell me the difference. It's a big difference.

I mean, past 50 miles, then you're like dealing with going into the night if you haven't trained at night. You're going into like, if you haven't trained at night. You're going into hallucinations, not sleeping, trying to keep yourself awake. You're stumbling around. And knowing when to walk and when to take breaks. I was so out of it. Back then, I wasn't even doing coffee back then. I thought that was a drug. So in the middle of the night, I'm stumbling around and

this lady comes up on me. She goes, are you okay? And I said, no, I'm tired. And I said, I hope there's coffee at the next aid station. I was willing to have coffee. And she goes, okay. She goes, I don't think they have it here. And she goes, you need to take a caffeine pill. And I'm like, what's that? She goes, it's just like coffee. And I'm like, no, that's like a drug. That's like speed. And she goes, no, it's just like, it's 200 milligrams of caffeine. So this, me and her were going on and on and we were walking together. Her name was Kim. And we got to the aid station and they actually had no coffee. And I was like, oh my God, how am I going to do this? And I was like bad falling asleep. Like I, I didn't know how I was going to get even around this.

Like I didn't know how I was going to get even around this. This was like miles. I was going into mile 80 loop, 80 to 100. No, I was at mile 60. So I was already going into getting to 80. And I could not stay awake. So she convinced me to take this caffeine pill. And she goes, break it in half.

If you're that freaked out about this, she goes, you really need to take it. You're not going to make it. And she was right. I took this caffeine pill, 100 milligrams. And all of a sudden, I was like, wow, I'm like awake. And I didn't do coffee back then. So, so you're tall. Yeah. So I, it, it definitely helped me. That saved me. I probably would have never been able to finish. I mean, I was so out of it and just taking that little bit of caffeine got me through that, through that night, you know? And, and I was like, okay, it's not that bad.

But it was years before then that I even did coffee. I didn't start drinking coffee until like 2004. Yeah, you don't seem like you need it. No, I had some today. Okay. I did like my espresso. Have you DNF'd a bunch of races? You do that with, that's how you learn.

I mean, you race all the time. You have like, you're just constantly like it's just been a constant stream of you racing ever since right like a lot yeah like after this doing these three 200s i'm just like i don't want to do anything but i have a hundred miler coming up like next weekend and do you treat every race the same or do you try to peak for certain races or prioritize certain events well obviously with the 200 you were just i was just like there was no training i was like you know you're racing and then going for it and that's a different kind of race you're you know you're taking it a lot slower to be able to survive and then push yourself later on when you i would think

in between the most important thing is making sure you're healthy and totally rested. Yeah, trying to gain weight back up. Because I started, I think I was like 113, 114 at the beginning of the race season. I mean, I always get down to about 109, 110 if I'm doing lots of races. But I got down to like 103, 104 and was constantly trying to add calories. I mean, like jars of almond butter and everything else. I'm eating vegan ice cream, which I never hardly eat, but I know I'm needing calories. And so I'm buying one for me and one for my boyfriend.

And my boyfriend's like, somehow this is not going right. You're not gaining weight and I'm gaining weight. But just eating a ton of healthy and lots more calories, like I said, adding more nuts and high- high calorie stuff every day just to gain that weight. So, you know, you're going to lose it when you're back into the game. And a typical training week is what, like 80 to 120 miles? Yeah. In the summers, I'm definitely up there.

I mean, this year I had some of the three. Running twice a day or once a day? Nope, just once a day. And some of my runs, I mean, I had some 300-and-something mile weeks this year. And do you work with a coach or do you design your own, just do what you feel? Just do my thing, yeah. I like training, and my whole thing is I love just being outdoors and being in the wilderness. And, you know, I was fast at one time.

I'm not ever going to be as fast as I can, you know, I guess if I had a coach. But I run because I love it. I don't want to be fast, That's the thing I like, yeah. Like you just like being at these races and you like being part of the community. And that's when I push myself when I'm in a race. I'm like, training for me is just enjoying the earth and seeing what I can see because, you know, I've been given a gift. I feel like it's a gift to be able to do this because I'm no different than anybody else. And it's like like I just happen to have this love for being outdoors now. And that's, you know, seeing things every day. I don't want to miss anything, you know, because one day I'm not going to be here.

Or I can't do it. And I know that time can come. I could hurt myself. Something could happen where I can't run again. And so I'm enjoying it now. Injury-free? You've never had any big-time injuries? Just, like, minor stuff, like PF here and there. You've never had any big-time injuries? Luckily, yeah. Just minor stuff like PF

here and there. I've always had a hamstring thing, and I hurt that in CrossFit years ago, and it just comes and goes. I have recovery pump boots, and I go to get massages. Epsom salt baths. I'm constantly doing stuff that helps me.

Massages? Acupuncture? Have you ever had any back issues or anything like that? Uh-uh. Yeah. No. I'm starting to get more of like a shoulder thing just from with your head down and you're in the 200s. It's like notice it. The older I get and the longer I go, it bothers me.

So now I don't even try to carry the water bottles in my hands in the 200s because I'm using trekking poles anyways. I put the water up here with my hydration. And I find that that actually helps me when I'm using the trekking poles in the 200-mile race. I usually don't grab onto them until about 50 miles in. But they give you something to do, and then you're working your other muscles so you're not hunched over. And outside the running, what kind of cross-training do you do? I lift weights, so I do kettlebells, box jumps, kind of like modified CrossFit stuff. Yeah. But on my own. And so in Bishop, I haven't been working out, I mean,

in a gym for two months and I used to go to 24 hour fitness or whatever. And I'm like, I don't have a lot of options at Bishop, but I found that they have a CrossFit that actually is open 24 seven and they have other stuff in there. You can use the, they have great treadmills and rowing machines and weights that you can use. So you don't have to just do CrossFit and that's kind of what I'm going to join that. So. So you show up on the pages of Born to Run. I would imagine that kind of changed your life a little bit. I mean, that book was such a big deal. It was a big deal. And they've still, they've been trying to make a movie out of that forever. I don't know if that's ever going to happen, but there were a couple of moments where it looked like it might have,

might look like it was going to go. Peter Sars a couple of moments where it looked like it was going to go. Peter Sarsgaard was, I don't know, but I don't know what happened. But so many people read that book. And that was really an entry point for most people's, unless you read Dean Karnaz's book. I mean, this was an entry point for people to discover what this whole ultra running world was all about. And you were this crazy colorful figure in this book. I mean, so what was that like for you and how did that change, you know, what would happen to you when you would show up at these races or just how you were living your life? I would meet a lot of people because people were not runners and then they became runners because of this book. It was

like so many people that they may have been 10K runners or not runners at all. And then they read this and they had this whole thing where they wanted to get into this barefoot running and this whole thing that kind of went away. But that kind of is not the thing, but they were all minimalists getting into it. And I'm like, yeah, I don't, you know, people were coming up to me, and they were like, you're that girl in the book. And I'm like, yep, that's me. And I'm trying to remember, because you went down for the race with the Tarahumara in the Copper Canyon. No, no, no. This is all, I was at Badwater when he was writing the whole Badwater stuff. Right, right, right. It's been so long since I wrote it. Yeah, he's all, do you mind if I write about your yo-yo? And I'm like, no, go ahead. So you did the yo-yo. Did you ever get tempted to do

the double Badwater? No, I did Badwater. So everybody assumed I did Badwater a bunch of times. I only did it last year. Oh, you did it once? Yeah, last year. Oh, just Badwater. So everybody assumed I did Badwater a bunch of times. I only did it last year. Oh, just last year. So my boyfriend has done it three times, and I've crewed there a bunch. And I always told Chris, the race director, I'm not going to run it. I don't run on the road. I'm not a roadrunner. I'm not a roadrunner.

And he'd always see me doing flatter stuff, and he'd be like, wait, you just did this, or you just did that. And he was always trying to encourage me to do it. And then I was like, no, no, no. And then finally it was like, guess what? I'm going to do it. So I did his whole series. So he has the Cape fair, which is the 50 mile and the desert and, or not desert on the beach in North Carolina. And then I did the Salton sea, which is a team race and then did bad water. So it's called the altar cup. So I did that last year. And bad water is back to its original course, right? Yeah. The only one year did they not have it, but they had-

They lost their license to do- The start time is different. They don't start in the morning like they used to. They start at night, which is great. It's much better. I think it's much easier because I've crewed when it used to be the old time and it's much harder. Oh, yeah. I crewed for Dean there a couple of years ago. And at like two in the afternoon, you're like, what is happening? But we're all trained for it. So like when you're training, you know, even when I've crewed there, I've always trained, you know, ready for it. But

when I got in, I definitely trained like, you know, full on clothing out in the heat of the day. And I had no problems. It was fine for you? No problems. Yeah. I want to go back because I think I could push harder. So I'm going to do it. Did your souls melt and that whole thing? None of that. None of that. Do you know Shannon for our grief? Yes, of course I do. She lives here. I see her on the trails all the time. I know and she's probably going to be mad that I'm here and I'm not stopping by and seeing her. You should see her. She would kick in the pants. I know, but I don't have time. She's amazing what she's been able to do. Of course. She's battling some health challenges at the time. I know, but I don't have time. She's amazing. Yeah, she is. What she's been able to do. Of course. And, you know, she's battling some health challenges at the time.

I mean, we've known each other for the same amount of time. Yeah, because she goes way back. We met at a 24-hour race, and it was the same year she did her first 100-miler. We know each other. Yeah, I've spent a lot of time with her. She's supposed to be at Javelina this weekend, but she's stuck with her knee. She keeps showing up. You guys are the OGs.

Yeah. You know, going way back. So now when you show up, you're like a celebrity at these races. Yeah, it's interesting. But it's great. I mean, with the book, it's like so many people are coming up to me just saying how it touched them or inspired them and emails all the time. And that's why I keep going. It's like women are like, oh, I'm too old to do this.

It's like, no, you're my age. Why are you too old to do this? You're not too old to do anything. It's like you can do anything you want at any age. And a lot of women are just starting to run in their 50s. So it's like it gives them somebody to look at. And you've been doing this for a long time, and some of your biggest accomplishments are recent.

Yeah. You know? I've always done crazy stuff. I know. And the book came out in March, May, like the spring, right? It came out in May, yeah. Yeah, May, Reborn on the Run. So I haven't read the book yet, but tell me, I mean, we're talking about all this stuff that I know is in the book. I mean, it's an autobiography, but what inspired you to write a book about all of this? I have so many stories. So I'd be out on runs with people and they're like, why don't you write a book? Why don't you write a book? You know,

it was a constant thing. And so a literary agent from New York, Carol Mann Agency contacted me and they said, have you thought of writing a book? And I said, yeah, but I don't have time to write a book. I can record a book and then somebody can put it on paper for me. I'm busy running all the time. So they said, well, we can help you do this. And so I said, all right. And this guy, Dan, had written an article about me, and I really like the style. He came and followed me. He did all this research on me.

And so he knew me really well. And I said, well, do I have to use one of your writers, or can we use somebody else? And she said, well, certainly. You can hire somebody else. You can hire somebody. She goes, but tell me who you want, and I'll contact them and have a chat with them. And so I said, here's the person and here's his contact. And they contacted him. And then he got back to me and I, he goes, yeah, he goes, I've never written a book. He goes,

I write, he writes for a newspaper and he's great at interviewing. So we decided that we would collaborate and we would work together and he'd be my writer. So we figured out the way we were going to do it. I was going to record my stories. We came up with like the format of the book and then we would record like stories, like the chapters. And so in the beginning, we kind of started and we sent some of it out and they're like,

no, this is like an interview. You guys are like interviewing each other back and forth. So he was like, you've got to really flesh detail out. So I would go out on these runs and record, you know, run, walk, and record my whole story that I was talking about. And I would have to go back, and I wouldn't even stop on the trail and just sit down and close my eyes when I was, you know, recording my chapter, just remembering in full detail things. And so that's how he did it. I recorded it, basically, and we, you know, by chapter by chapter. And so that's how we did it. I recorded it basically. And we, you know, by chapter by chapter and it was a lot of work. It wasn't easy.

And so that's how we did it. That's cool. It was really cool. Yeah. So you, so congratulations. Thank you. Yeah. It's no small thing. So you've been kind of touring around. Yeah. Doing book signings and, you know, a lot of my races, I'm just doing book signings. I'm, you know, in different, like I'm going to be in San Diego in December at Running Skirts to do a thing with them. And I did a bunch of the REIs in the Bay Area. So I'm waiting until after the new year to start doing more stuff because it's like I'm, after all the running, just doing all those races. I'm like, I just want to have me time and be on the trail all by myself.

It's a weird thing. Like your, your story is so different than mine, but like, I'm into ultras, I'm in recovery. I I'm vegan. You know, like, what is it about? I mean, I need to get some tattoos, I guess. You have a lot of tattoos. That's my next venture, I suppose. But what do you think it is about like those three things that, I mean, there's so many, like there's a lot of vegans in the ultra world. Like I feel like that's the sport that really launched the idea that you could be an athlete and be vegan. Now you're seeing athletes in all different disciplines, but it kind of started in this

ultra world. Maybe that's because of Scott Jurek. I don't know. Yeah. And I was around before him. But no, I wasn't fast. And he got us on the map for the vegans. And like I said, I'd been vegan for a long time. And it shows you, look, I didn't waste away. I'm still going. I'm getting enough protein. I've been- I mean, you're 53 and you just ran three 200 mile plus races

in a period of 10 weeks? Yeah. It's insane. And so what? We can't do anything? Yeah. And you look amazing. So it's all working fine.

Yeah. And I'm so happy with the social media showing these other athletes. You see these even raw vegan bodybuilders. And it's like, no, why do you have to eat meat? Look at this guy. You look at him and obviously they know what they're doing. You're getting the right amount of calories and food and building your body from there. So it's not, yeah, it's sad. I wish everybody could kind of get on board. Well, it's changing, you know, it's growing, you know, awareness. And I think

social media has played a big part in that. Which is really good. You know, documentaries and stuff and that's changing. And people get angry, but then there's a conversation that's happening. Exactly. So there's a debate that's often healthy, sometimes not healthy. Yeah. And I think a lot of times when people are overweight, they're like, oh, that's not good for you. It's because they're afraid. They have to face their self. And it was funny because I was running with a guy at the race, and he was like, most men that become vegan, they were overweight or something. And it was funny because I was running with a guy at the race and he was like, most men that become vegan, they were overweight or something. And then they watch a documentary and then they get back in, you know, they get into this. It's like more women tend to be going

into the veganism, but guys are like meat and, you know, you're supposed to be the hunter kind of thing. And they... Well, there's different entry points for different people. You know, I think a lot of guys, yeah, they reach middle age and they feel lousy and they're overweight. I mean, that's my story. And then I'm like, I need to do something different. And now, 12 years later, it's like about the environment. Exactly. And it's about, you know, factory farming and it's about ethics and all these things that I didn't care about.

And actually, we're a turnoff at that time. Like, a lot of it is timing. People have to be in the right place in their life at the right time in order to receive a certain message. You know, I certainly would not have been able to hear it, you know, a year prior to where I was. And so, you know, I think everybody has a role in how they advocate, you know, these lifestyle choices. And I think they're all appropriate because people are tuning into different frequencies. Yep, I agree with you. A lot of people start as a diet

and then their mindset, they're like, wait, and it goes a little further and then you're more conscious of what's going on in the environment. And they start just using it as a diet, not really as a lifestyle because it is a lifestyle change. But then it expands.

You know, it's like you ran a 10K and now you're the ultra queen. You're the dirt diva. What does the dirt diva mean? What is that? Where does that come from? So I've hiked the Pacific Crest Trail. All right. Explain how in ultras you get these nicknames.

Well, that's not from ultras. That's from, this is from fast packing and hiking. So, so when you're doing like the Appalachian Trail, Pacific Crest Trail, Continental Divide, all long-distance hikers, they don't use their real name. You become somebody else. Why is that? It's just a thing. It's a tradition. So I wasn't even doing a long trail.

I was doing the yo-yo on the JMT, and I met a guy that was hiking the Pacific Crest Trail. And I came running up the trail, and he was like, oh, you know, it was filthy. It was like my turnaround. And he goes, you look like a diva. You know, it was like colorful and, but filthy. I hadn't showered in days. You know, I'm going on like 10 days. And he goes, you look like a dirty diva.

And I was like, what? And he goes, do you have a trail name? And I said, no, he goes, dirty diva. And I said, I don't like that. And he goes, dirt diva. And I go, oh, I like that. And so then we started talking and then he gave me his trail name and he told me he's psyched at the Pacific Crest Trail.

And I was like, yeah, I want to do that one day. And so that kind of stuck. So I used that as my trail name because he gave it to me. So that's kind of how it stuck. And you've always had the flair for the color and all that. I love color. For people that are just listening to this on audio, it's like you've got, I don't know how many colors in your hair right now. You're wearing like super cool clothes.

And you're known for showing up these races and you always have these like amazing outfits, usually run in a skirt. Yeah, always. There's like 800 colors to you and rainbows and all kinds of things going on. I love it. You should have your own full line of your gear. I would love to. No, I am sponsored by people. I would love to make my own. Well, whoever's sponsoring you should let you design a line. I agree love to. No, I am sponsored by people. I would love to make my own.

Well, whoever's sponsoring you should let you design a line. I agree. Yeah. If they're listening. Yeah. They're listening. Yeah, I just love color. Color brings joy and happiness, I think.

And I was in such a dark place for so long. And even people in races, they said, if you can just stay there and run right in front of me this whole race, I'm going to finish because I'm going to be feeling good and happy. Because just seeing you in a race, people will say that. You came up at the right time. I was feeling sad. And you look happy. You're just happiness, the color. Yeah, you're always jumping up and down and smiling. But you must have your dark moments. Oh, of course. During the races and in life in general. dark moments of course right during the races and in life in general i was telling somebody in the 200 i'm like fuck like maybe a mountain lion i'll bite my leg and i'll have to stop so i don't have to quit like make an excuse to stop i'm like just maybe something will happen and i have to save

somebody's life and i'll be able to stop the race i mean you go your mind is like wacko out there you know and that's what i think but then i I go, no, knock it off. You know, just keep going. Don't think that. So I always try to change that. But there's those points when you're like, I got to be out here three more days, three days with no more sleep, you know, sleeping here or there. It's freezing out. I was wearing two pairs of pants at the last race, a Polar Tech shirt, two puffy jackets, two, with hoods over my head, with a hat, with two pairs of gloves and hand warmers. This is at Moab? That's how cold.

And I'm at the thing up over my face. That is how cold I was at night. And I was just okay if I kept moving. Like if I had to stop, it would have been way, it would have been a bad thing, cold. Whatever, like it was that bad, snow. But I feel like your thing is you're having fun all the time. Like you're doing this for fun. You're not here like, I'm going to beat these people and I'm

going to be on a podium. Like you're there for the ride. I'm there to inspire other people. That's what I always say. You know, it's like, we need more people to inspire other people. And I mean, people are inspired by really fast people, but just me, I'm average and just been doing it and just do crazy things because I say I want to do something and I make it happen. But you know you're not average, right? Well, I guess not. You've done things no one's done. And you have plenty of victories and all of that.

But people could do that if they wanted to. But it's funny because you've won races and you've done things that no one has ever done before. But you're also like you can be a middle of the packer person as well and be there with all kinds of people who need that inspiration. Yeah, and I don't mind. As long as I finish. If I finished and last, I don't care. As long as I finish. And to me, I always look at that person. They were, you know, the last place people were like 12 hours behind me at Moab. But it's like, those are the people, they're out there a long time. And so they get through it too. So it's all up here that's pushing. It's harder. It's harder because imagine being out there for

like a full day long. It's like you see that at Badwater, you know, like you finish and then you go back down the mountain and you're in the hotel and then you go to dinner and then you go to sleep and you wake up the next morning and people are still coming in. It's like unbelievable. It's true. Yeah. And that takes an extra level of likeacity and focus. And I don't know, it's inspiring. It is. Well, you look at Shannon. I mean, one year, I was like, is she even going to make it? Two years ago, it was questionable.

And I was like, dang. It was like two or three years ago when she finished last, and she made it. It's like, wow. Amazing. So you've been in this game for a long time and the whole subculture and world of ultras has changed so dramatically. I would imagine there's a hardcore group of people who lament these changes and want it to be the way that it was. Yeah, like go back to the tent and all of that. And yet now it's become, I don't know if it's fair to say mass participatory, but the number of people and there's so many races.

Yeah, and more and more people are doing it. So how do you think about that growth? I like it. A lot of the old school guys, I was talking to somebody last week at the race and he was like, wow, I don't know how many people, that's why I'm running the 200s. Well, yeah, if you want to be in a race where there's less people, you do the 200s. That's more on the edge now. That's the French people. How many people are showing up at the 200s? Let's see. That race had

180. It did sell. Tahoe sold out. Tahoe was like 200 and something. It sold out. And how many people DNF? It's a high finishing rate. All the 200s, 80% finishing rate. How are they vetting people for that? Or why do you think that is? Because you get more time. The cutoffs are not tight because she's allowing for sleep in the race. So it's not a stage race, but it's like a stage race. Right.

Because it's a continuous clock running. And there is plenty of time. So like the earlier cutoffs, well, this race, it just seemed like because it's longer that, you know, you get more extended. But I think the first cutoff at mile 30, or no, it was like 20. Because it's so remote, she doesn't have a lot of cutoffs in between because you can't get the people out of there. So you just keep going. But the first cutoff, you had to get to 20 miles. You had 13 hours, which is totally doable.

She makes it so it's like two and a half miles an hour to three. And that allows for sleep. So you could sleep every day for five hours if you wanted and still finish. That would be like at the back of the packers doing it. And what does the sleep look like at the front of the pack? Like Courtney? Well, Courtney, she takes like two-minute nap breaks on the trail. Two minutes. She was telling me that at Tahoe. I go, how much did you sleep? Because I go, I only got two hours sleep and I still took 90 hours to finish because I was wobbling and just sitting down a lot at the aid was wobbling and just sitting down

a lot at the aid stations and eating and just like trying to get myself to go because I wanted to sleep, but I couldn't. And she goes, oh, I probably slept about, I think she said 12 minutes total. 12. So like six, two minute naps or something like that. It's unbelievable. I'm like, what? Yeah, that's super handy.

I had two hours, which was not enough. I tried to have five hours total in a 200. In the first two of the Triple Crown, I only got two hours in, and it was the hallucinations were out of control. What are you seeing when you're hallucinating? Everything's a something. A tree is people. You know, it's just like a stick is a snake, and it's like— Does it happen during the day, too, or only at night?

You see it in the day too or only at night you see in the day but mostly at night and then you hear i was getting audio stuff and it was like nobody's around there's people around me no they're not here and at the end it was just like everything was at the end of bigfoot that was the first time where i didn't get at least three four or five hours sleep in a race and the the walls were like, every rock was a painting. Like somebody came out and like, I was like, wow, these people came out in this little town and they painted each rock with like a picture, a mural. I was like, this is really cool.

And I would just be stumbling and falling asleep on my feet. And so at the end I told my boyfriend, he paced me in and I said, did you see that like killer rock wall? And he was like, what? He, and I said, did you see that, like, killer rock wall? And he was like, what? He goes, there was no rock. He goes, there was a rock wall. I go, no, there was, like, all the paintings on it. And he goes, there's no paintings.

I said, tomorrow you need to drive me back over there. And we get there the next day, and I'm like, there's nothing on there. I saw all these really cool paintings. And at Tahoe, I kept, so Truman was crewing. He was on the crew at Tahoe with my pacers. And at the end, I was so out of it. I kept stopping, and I would stop at a bush and start petting it. And I was like, ah, it's Truman.

And then I'm like, fuck, what am I doing? And I'd snap out of it, like, knowing that, what are you doing? You're wandering to these bushes, petting bushes. And my pacer was in front of me, and she calls me sister. She's from Mexico, my friend Gabby. I a pacer at Badwater this year and she goes sister what are you doing and I'm like nothing and she's like okay I keep coming and then at Badwater she had hallucinations and we had to push her hard cuz she barely she was nearly cut off and she kept saying I see a China man and a

Chinese pointy hat and so I kept going to the bushes and at one point she goes what are you doing sister and I said I don't see a China man in a Chinese pointy hat. And so I kept going to the bushes. And at one point she goes, what are you doing, sister? And I said, I don't see a China man with a Chinese hat. She laughed. She goes, you're hallucinating. Somebody should do a book of like all the hallucinations. They should. Especially after Bigfoot. It's like a weird look into somebody's collective unconscious mind. I mean, after Moab, everybody has like a story, crazy stories. Like I saw sculptures of mountain lions out there out of the snow. I mean, it was just crazy. It can't be good for you. No.

And one of the women that was like, I think she was in like second or third van, and she was doing the Triple Crown too, fun. And she had like major hallucinations where she laid down and stopped and everything was moving. She was trapped in this other world, she said. The race director had to come find her because we're all wearing spot devices. In order to send a

search and rescue out, they couldn't get to us in time. And so the race director, Candice, she always heads up a team like, okay, we know that's Fawn and she hasn't moved for seven hours. I've got to go to her. I've got to find out what's going on. And so she went out to her and she said she was trapped. She couldn't get going. She was in like this another world. She was so out of it and she hadn't slept. Wow.

So yeah, that's why I try to sleep a little bit because I don't want to be there. I've gotten there. No, I can't be good. I would imagine it pays dividends if you can force yourself to sleep. Yeah, you try to, but she sleeps on trail is what she does. And what happened is she went to lay down on the trail and she sat her light down and she couldn't find it in her gloves and it was freezing out there. So she couldn't move. She just, she would see headlights go by and she was trying to say stuff and couldn't get it out to people. Like they were not that far away from her, but nobody saw her because it was dark. Right. So, wow. Yeah. It's craziness. but nobody saw it because it was dark.

Right. So. Wow. Yeah, it's craziness. So what's driving all of this? Like, what keeps you in it? Like, you've done hundreds of these things. Like, how are you still enthusiastic about it?

What are you trying to learn about yourself or prove to yourself? Challenge. Or is it just? I just want to keep challenging myself as long as I can, because I know I'm only here for this one time in my life. And it's like, I just enjoy being out there. I just enjoy the whole thing and the people you meet along the way. It's like you're a family, especially in the 200s. You got to help each other. You connect. If you don't have pacers or crew at night, you're like hooking up with another runner for safety

purposes. Just keeping each other motivated and you learn everybody's story out there. It's like we all have a story and it's really cool to share these things. What do you think people don't understand about hundreds and two hundreds and these crazy ultra races? They just think it's way too far in that people can't do that. That's just like, you know, it's unheard of. They don't believe that we can do this and they just think we're nuts. They think you're lying? Yeah, they just think we're nuts. And it's getting more common, especially now with the hundreds. 200s are still a bit out there, but I'm trying to bring everybody in. Anybody can do a 200. It's easier than a hundred. Anybody can do a 200. I swear to God, it's easier than a hundred. And this is why. Because it's a trek. Because you get so much time. Yeah. So you get so much more time to finish.

And it's doable. And that's why the finishing rate is high. You could push yourself. You know, first one, go out and see how you do. But it's a matter of managing your sleep and managing your fuel because you're alone out there. And you've got to be taking care of yourself. So you can't have a problem. You've got 20 miles and it could take 10 hours to get into the next aid station.

You better be damn well ready to take care of yourself. I think people would be surprised at the sort of type of person that shows up at these races. Because I think if you don't know better, you imagine or you project this image of this super athlete. And there are certainly those kinds of people. But in my experience, a lot of the people you're like, whoa, like they just look like average everyday people. They don't even necessarily look athletic. Like I just did a podcast with this guy, Sanjay Rawal, who made this documentary about the 3100 self-transcendence run. Oh, yeah, yeah. You know about this, where they go around the half-mile block in Queens?

That's nuts. Yeah, there's like 30, I don't know, 25 of them or whatever every year. self-transcendence run. Do you know about this? Where they go around the half mile block in Queens. That's nuts. Yeah. There's like 30, I don't know how, 25 of them or whatever every year. And they literally run from 6 a.m. to midnight every day for like 52 days in a row until whoever gets to 3,100 miles first wins, literally around a city block. And then they switch directions each day or something like that. And you look at these people and you're like, you would never think. They could do something like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they do.

And they do. And it makes you, it really reframes how you think about sport and performance and extraordinary accomplishments. Yeah, because it's a mind thing. Like you have to have a strong mind to do a lot of this. And how have you trained your mind? Like what is your relationship with your mind? Because it is so mental. It is.

Like how have you gotten to this place where you can push through and do these things? Positive thinking and thinking of others that are not here or people that are injured or wanting to change places. You know, there's people out there that are sick, that have cancer. People I know, they would trade in an instant to go out and do the Triple Crown and have me have their cancer. You know what I mean? It's like you got to do it for other people and, you know, just do it for everybody that can't. And that's my big thing. So do you take like a – do you have like a mental image of an individual? Like when you hit that breaking point and you don't want to keep going.

Like, what gets you through? Yeah, a lot of times I run for people. And a friend, Dennis O'Connor, just passed away. And I saw him recently at Tahoe. And he was out on a training run. I believe he was in France or the Alps somewhere, just out on business. And he was out on a run. And there was, I guess, a storm.

I don't know the full thing, you know, just from what I read online. And he fell and he broke his arm. and he didn't have a spot device, but he had his phone, and he was able to send a message. And the search and rescue couldn't come out to him. The storm was too bad, so they found him a few days later dead. So stuff like that. I'm like, he was doing what he loved. Everybody loved him in the Bay Area running community,

anybody they met, super nice guy. And so during, you know, the last 200, I just said, I'm doing this for Dennis. Dennis is with me and we're, you know, he's not here anymore to do it. And there's no complaining for me. I'm doing what I love. And he did what he did up until the end, but just still sad way to go to be by yourself. And, you know, so from hypothermia or whatever, he passed away because nobody could get to him. Wow. So when you think of like the triple crown 200 thing that you just did or the double John Muir or whatever that's called, like, how do you, like, what does it mean to you? Just, you know, just showing other women. It's a lot about me inspiring other women to do things that they

think they couldn't do. And I was always afraid to even be out in the wilderness. When I first started running, I was like, there's no way I would be out running on a training run, going past a certain point into the mountain. And now it's like, I'll just go wherever I want. I carry a spot device, safety, you know, out where I live. So the spot device is like a GPS beacon. And I can hit the button if something happens to me. Something happens and it alerts. Yeah, and it goes right to my boyfriend directly to his phone when I hit that button.

And then it goes to the search and rescue as well. So that means I ain't coming out anywhere. But we're going to get a satellite phone. So that way, if I'm ever out on a run, to let him know, like, okay, I'm going to be three hours behind. I got stuck in a storm over here and i can't get over the pass yeah but i'm not needing a rescue so i don't need to push that other button but we're because he had an accident in the wilderness and he didn't have a spot device he broke his pelvis in five places seven months ago wow out on a training run and he

was taking pictures standing on a ledge the rock rock came down. He was going head first. He was able to twist his body around, landed on his pelvis, and his phone was still up above him. He had to crawl to get his phone. He had no reception. He had to crawl. He didn't know how far he was going to have to go. At the time, he didn't know how much he broke. To find service.

To get service, yeah. So he had to crawl one mile. It took him four hours. It was getting dark. It was in February. He had no gear to get through. Yeah. So he had to crawl one mile, took him four hours. It was getting dark. It was in February. He had no gear to get through the night. And had he not been calm and relaxed, like that's the kind of person he is, he could have died out there, but he was able to get reception. Luckily, you know, there was, for whatever reason, he got a little bit of reception, able to call. He called his work first because he's supposed to be flying that plane that flies people that get injured. He's supposed to be the guy rescuing himself.

So he called and he was like, got it. He goes, I'm sending SAR. He was able to tell him where he was at. And so the search and rescue came out to him. And it still took him a while. It was another six miles to get him to the ambulance. So he was that far away from the vehicle that he would have not made it. He said he couldn't have made it pretty much any farther than he did.

He was just trying to remain calm. He knew he was in a bad situation. And he was basically scooting for one mile, four hours, scooting in your butt, trying to not do anything to one side of you. So they were able to take him to the hospital, x-rayed him, and then they were like, yeah, we're going to put you in your plane that you're supposed to be flying and fly you to Reno to have surgery. So now he's got a spot device. Yes, we both do. It's like ironic, but he's the guy who should know more than anybody how important that is.

But it's like a lawyer being his own advocate. Yeah, well, and you know, it's like he didn't really know, and we didn't think, you know, he had just moved to Bishop, and it's like, oh, yeah, and I wasn't even around. I was in Texas pacing at a 100-mile race, and then I get this rambling message, oh, I tried to base jump off of a mountain, and I fell, and I broke my pelvis. That's what I got, and that's the message he left me. He goes, I'm at the hospital. Click.

Love you. I was like, what the fuck is this? And I called him. I'm like, what are you talking about? Oh, he fell. And he had hardly any reception back on his phone. He goes, I'm having surgery. And I'm like, wait, wait, what's happening?

What's happening? But he's just that kind of guy. Like, don't worry about it. I'm cool. So he's still making a comeback. Yes, dangerous. It's super dangerous. Are you familiar with what's been going on in Malibu Creek here?

Uh-uh. There was a murder, and there's been a bunch of break-ins around here, and they've just apprehended a guy who they're calling the Malibu State Park survivalist or something like that. Whoa. No, I haven't heard of that. But there's like a guy who's been living out like the big, I don't know, you've probably run in the creek, right?

Yeah, I was just running there this morning. That's the local, that's where I go. There was like a dad and his child who were camping in there, like, I don't know, eight or nine months ago who got shot point blank. And there's been a couple of other weird things that have happened around here,

like a dead body discovered by the Hindu temple. And they don't know if these things are related. Yeah. And then a bunch of break-ins around here where nothing's stolen, but they can tell, oh, somebody, you know, forced entry. But the food, like they've eaten all the food. Oh, they've taken food out of the... Yeah. So it's like, oh, somebody's living in the woods, right?

Yeah. So they just... There's been like this manhunt. Just like two weeks ago, there were like 12 cop cars and like those armored tank, like military LAPD vehicles and helicopters. And they found this guy. I don't know that they've been able to legitimately like be able to prove that he's the guy behind all of this. But some guy's been living back out. I mean, there's so much land. There's got to be people like that he's the guy behind all of this, but some guy's been living back out. I mean, there's so much land. There's got to be people like that all over the place.

Like when I live in Bishop, there's like, yeah, there's like- These people off the grid that are- They could do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, they can't go way up in the mountains in the winter because it's snowing, but they can come in around town and there's so many off-road vehicle trails in Bishop. I can run for days. I mean, we're working on picking maybe a 200-mile loop out there too. Oh, really?

Like making your own trail? No. I'm talking the race director trying to do a race out there. What would you call it? Bishop 200. You've got to name it after Truman, I think. Nope, Bishop 200. Well, I love the fact that you are this strong presence and source of strength for so many women.

I think it's super important. And your story is crazy cinematic. It's like, oh, you're working in a beauty parlor and you're not an athlete and you got all these tattoos and crazy hair and you're goth, never had done anything. And now you're like, you just crush it and you continue to and you continue to crush it and you show up and you show up and you show up. And it's just, I think it's the, I think what speaks to me more than anything is like the spirit in which you do it. Like you're just, you're full of like good energy and happiness. And I think that's really inspiring. Yeah. And I look back though, and people are like, would you change anything? And I said, nope, because I wouldn't be who I am today.

Yeah. Had I not had to go through any of those experiences. The darkness is the teacher. Yeah. It's like, I wouldn't be sitting right here in front of you had I not been all of those things. Yeah. So when people, I'm sure people email you or get in touch with you and say, I can't get off drugs or I'm trying to get sober. You're inspiring me.

What do you usually try to share with those people? Of course, try to tell them, go to AA or NA right off the bat that I'm not a therapist. But I just say, if you just believe in yourself and start exercising, start eating right, you can do it. And it's like, sure enough, months later, people will message me back and say, thank you for just even saying anything to me because I didn't think you were going to message me back. And I get that all the time. I'm like, why wouldn't I message you back? I mean, you get a lot of emails.

I get a lot of emails. But I always try to at least give them a sentence on a post because that one person, you could be changing their life. And I learned that a long time ago that I'm like, I need to, and especially those ones where you're like, oh, they're reaching out to me and I need to say something because who knows who they're not reaching out to. And I find often that it's not necessarily about the information. It's like, yeah, duh. Like you need to go to an A meeting or you need to raise your hand and ask for help or you need need to see a shrink, or you need to like, I think most people already know that, but it's, they want, they're like, they're, they are raising their hand to you and it's the connection. It's the sense that they're being heard and they're being recognized. I think that is the most important thing.

I agree with you for sure. And that I think can be transformative for people. For sure. I think this is a really boring question, but I'm going to get killed if I don't ask it, which is, like, take me through a day in food. Like, how do you do all this stuff and do it on a vegan diet? What are you eating? What are you eating typical day?

What are you eating when you're, you know, what are you eating? What do you bring with you when you're training? And, like, how do you fuel on these races? So usually, like, morning it's either, like, I usually do, like, a smoothie or do some yogurt with pinoli on it and just, like, real simple. Back to the born to run thing. Yeah, exactly. Explain what that is for people that don't know. So it's, what is it?

It's what they eat, the tarahumara eat in the Copper Canyon in Mexico. And so it's just a grain that they use that has all this protein and it's supposed to have all these vitamins in it. And it tastes actually good. And I like adding it to my yogurt just to add some more flavor and maybe a little protein. And usually that's all I have in the morning. And a lot of times I don't even eat before I run in the morning. If I'm just going out for a short run until I come back like at 11, I'm not a big breakfast person. And then I'll have like for lunch, I'll just take like a beyond meat burger patty and a bowl of fruit and just eat the patty

by itself and then some fruit. And then for dinner is my main meal. So I just do like a big salad with a hodgepodge of everything in it. You know, some, you know, Beyond Meat burger, you know, I use like sriracha, vegan mayo, like spicy stuff, you know, and just every vegetable. And I do a lot of cauliflower rice. I like that. That's one of my favorite things. My food is not that exciting. I know, it's basic. That's why it's like, this is kind of a boring question. I suspected that your answer would be something like that, but I think a lot of people would be surprised. They're like, well, how is that? That doesn't seem like very much. Like how is that powering this person through 120 miles of running every week? It does. If you're eating, well, I mean, I eat other stuff. Like when I'm

really hungry, you know, add more almond butter into like a smoothie and just more calories. But I'm getting clearly enough because I'm not, you know, if I start feeling like I'm losing weight, then I start adding more calories. But I'm just not a huge, like eating tons of food all the time. And from when I'm out running, I always bring stuff. So usually almond butter packets, like packets of almond butter. And this one company I just found makes like a bigger one. so it's like five servings, so I can use that. What company is that?

It's Trell Butter, and they only have one vegan formula, so I'm going to try to email them and say, can we make the coffee one with vegan for the 200s? So I used that actually during the 200-mile race, and it was great because in between those aid stations, when I had like five hours to go, that big thing powered me. And Muir Energy, which is a great company, they're local here, and they have like four to five ingredients. And so it's thicker than a regular gel, and it's almost like a consistency of an almond butter. And they're like about 180 calories per little packet of gel. So I use that in baby food packets.

And that's pretty much what I eat. And then even in these 200 mile races in between, that's all I'm eating. But at the race aid stations, I sit down and they make, that's one thing unique about between a hundred and a 200 and a hundred mile race. I'm not eating that much. You have to sit down because you got to go 20 miles again. So they have a full vegan gluten-free selection there for you. Yeah, they have the bin, the gluten-free vegan bin. And there's a lot of people. Because there's so many gluten-free vegans. Even my, one of my pacers is not even a vegan, but he was trying to eat more vegan when he was out there with us.

And he was eating the gluten-free and he goes, this stuff's good. So they whip up you a patty right there. You have to wait for, you know, because they're making it to order because, you know, not coming in like in a 100-mile race, a bunch of people, you've got to leave food out. So they cook it up, you sit there, and they even had gluten-free vegan bread. I was like, what? So I would sit down and eat tons, and people were like, wow, how can you eat that much? So I'd have lentil soup, then I would have the patty, then I would have the bread, and then I would have hash browns, and then I would go again.

So that was a lot of fuel. And then in between, I would do the almond butter and the Muir Energy and the baby foods. Do you do real foods too, like dates and bananas? Oh, yeah, yeah, dates. And sweet potatoes. Yeah, if they have sweet potatoes out there. But dates, I carry those all the time. Dates are one of my favorite things for training.

Because bars, it's like they have so many different things. I mean, they even have raw foods, bars. But I'd rather just have dates for the sweetness and the carbohydrates. They're like their nature's gel. They are. When I did the Marathon de Sable in Morocco many years ago, the stage race, I noticed like the guys that were winning these races, I'm like, how do they, their packs look so small. It's because they look at your calorie content and you have to have a certain amount a day. They just had bags of dates and that was the amount of calories, you know, for the entire race. Cause it's three dates is like 120 calories. So I'm like, shit, that's how they got away with it.

I'm like taking wrappers off my bars to make it lighter in the bag and you know, whatever else. Have you, you just did that race once? Yeah. I did that race once. I'd like to do it again, but it's just so crazy now. That's a crazy race with like a thousand people. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Exploded. I just had Fiona Oaks on. Yeah, she's really cool. She did this documentary about her participating in that race. She's amazing. She's so funny.

I know. She's very funny. I'm like, what? She's like really serious, but like really funny in a self-deprecating way. you're like, you're amazing.

But she's like, oh, no, I don't like running. And I'm like, I'm the opposite of her. I'm not very good at it. I'm a shit runner. So it's like, how could you? Yeah, I want to see her documentary. Yeah, you should watch it. It's good.

She's really, she's a cool lady. I think it's worth noting also, like just on the calorie thing and like how you eat every day, that you've been doing this so long when you go out on your daily 20 mile run or whatever it is that you're doing, that's just not that, it can't be that taxing. Like people think, oh my God, 20 miles, like I'd be in bed for a week after that. I'm not running like an eight minute mile and like taking pictures and selfies and making videos. Who is, do you do, who's taking all these pictures? Me.

So how are you doing that when you're like facing? Oh, you do, okay. And I have a little tripod I carry. Oh, you do? And so my video ones, I have a little button, so I set it up and then got to do the dance video. The tricks of the trade. Yeah, I'm good.

I know people are like, who follows you? Truman can't be doing that. I know, because I was like, somebody's taking photos, because their photos are always really great. People are like, you don't run by yourself. I'm like, of course I do. This is all me. And it's just iPhone or cell phone?

iPhone. All right, there you go. No excuses. Who would have known? And that makes people smile, too, because they're like, oh, we look forward to seeing these funny videos that you do, your music videos. And it just gets people out the door, because they're like, oh, shit, she's having these funny videos that you do, your music videos. And it just gets people out the door because they're like, oh, shit.

Like she's having fun. Okay, we're going to go run today. Right. It makes it less intimidating. Yeah. You know, you're like, I'm going to run this and it's super scary. You're like, no, I'm out with Truman and he's wearing ski goggles. In an outfit.

It's like, what is happening here? It looks like, I mean, sometimes it looks like. For characters. What is happening here? It looks like, I mean, sometimes it looks like. For characters? No, it looks like you're like, are you on the set of Mad Max? Like there's something post-apocalyptic about the whole thing.

Poor Truman. I know. So what are you, now you've done these three 200s, like what's next? Do you just go right into the next race or? Yeah, I had in between 11 day break break for my next 100-miler. 11 days. Yeah. And I'm like, I love doing it.

But I'm going for my 10th at Javelina 100. And last year I did Moab 240 because that was the first year they had it. And 11 days later did the 100-miler. And I'm like, never again, never again. And then I'm like, oh, crap. I have to because I'm going for number 10 now. Yeah. So that's coming up when? It's next friday or saturday uh-huh but i love that race because you i wear a costume every year it's always right before halloween it's like a big party if i was

ever to suggest somebody to do their first hundred that wanted to be kind of low-key about it it's loop it's 20 mile loops do javelina it's like a party yeah and now it, it's loop. It's 20-mile loops. Do javelina. It's like a party. Yeah. And that way you don't feel. It's in the Arizona desert. Uh-huh. It's hot. It's going to be warm probably.

But I've been looking at the temperature. It doesn't look much over 80, so keeping my fingers crossed. What's the costume you're going to wear? I'm going to be, what is the name? Oh, my God. From Alice in Wonderland, the rabbit. What is his name? I'm blanking right now.

I know, me too. And I have the costume sitting right at home. Well, I was going to be her. And then I was like, no, I got to be the white rat. Mad Hatter. Thank you. The Mad Hatter. Yes, of course.

My daughter was just the Mad Hatter in a play. I have had so many costumes. Every year I'm something. So, yeah, I got this, like, dialed-in costume. We're both in our 50s. It's like, it's okay. We can have a brain mask. I know.

We can have a brain. I ran 240 miles the other day. Come on. Come on, my brain's dead. So, yeah, and I just have to finish making my little hat, and I'm all set. The costume's ready to roll. Like the full black top hat with the playing cards in it? No, I made a small one, yeah.

So I'm going to do that, and I have to make a little watch on there, and I have the little rabbit ears on there, and I'm carrying a little rabbit. I always carry a prop, so I'll pin it to the back of my pack, the white rabbit. It's just getting more surreal. Yeah. You'll see the costume. You'll love it. All right, well, we've got to wind this down,

but I want to end this with some inspiration for people that are feeling stuck in their life or feeling like maybe that ship has sailed. I think it's so inspiring what you do and the way that you do it. It just makes, like I said, it makes people feel comfortable taking a leap of faith or getting outside their comfort zone because you make it fun and you make it accessible. So if somebody's sitting on the couch or they're rubber banding in and out of whatever lifestyle habit they're trying to adopt, how can we get people to understand that the things that you do are not necessarily unique to you, but available to everybody? They got to get out and just find their passion and just have fun. Don't go into trying to be so serious.

Maybe if you want to start running or you want to get outdoors to make yourself feel better, just start by hiking. Just get out and breathe the air. Go out for a walk and look at the flowers, look at the plants, look at the trees. I mean, that to me, just getting out is the first step. You don't have to become a runner or do a hundred miles or do whatever, but get out and then see what the world has to offer and change, of course, change the way you eat. Eating healthy definitely will help your mindset too. And I think that's a big part of when I got into recovery that it did help

me was eating healthy, you know, not eating the junk and the toxic stuff and just getting rid of toxicity in my life. So just get out and enjoy it and just find your passion. These things are cumulative. You know, they're not, they're not unrelated to each other. You start taking care of yourself in one way, and then you're more, more encouraged to take care of yourself in other ways. And when I look at your story and your life and your trajectory, I mean, it's so dramatic and crazy that you went from this place of where you were to what you're doing now and you're just continuing to crush it. You know, it's just, it's so awesome.

I was meant to be on this planet for a reason and to inspire others. I always say, you know, it's like I, you know, tried to commit suicide and it's like, it didn't happen because I'm supposed to be here. So, well, I'm glad you are. Thank you. Cool. So, uh, the book is called reborn on the run. Um, are you out like doing talks or like, is there a way for people to, if they want to come and see you in real life? Yeah. So, um, they can actually, if they want to even get a copy, they can get it on Amazon or they can actually email me. My website's almost finished, but they can email me at dirtdiva333 at gmail.com if they want an autograph copy and I can send that out to them and they can get it through that way. But my website will be up and they'll be able to order it through there. You get your website done when your book comes out.

You're too busy running to 600,000 miles. I'm trying to find somebody to do it for me and he came up with this great one. He had to base jump off a rock. Yeah, exactly. So he just did it while I was out running the 240. He finally had time to sit down because he's working two jobs and he's a busy body guy and running. But yeah, so it's finally getting done. But I'll be, my next book signing is in December 1st at Running Skirts in San Diego. And I'll be at Javelina doing a book signing. I'll be selling my book there at the 100-Miler next week.

Awesome. And if people want to connect with you online, you're at DirtDiva3333. So how many threes? Three threes. What's the deal with that? I'm just obsessed with the number three. And three threes is like way more luckier. Like it's a better number and it's like a positive number.

If you look up 333, it's a very, like the angels and positive things are always around you when you have that number. And I see that when I look at my watch or my phone, a few times a week I see 333. Or I'll see a car go by or I'll see those numbers. Yeah. Looking at it. Not 333, or I'll see a car go by, or I'll see those numbers. Yeah. Looking at it. Not 333 yet. What time is it right now? Wouldn't it be, oh, my God, you know what?

It's like 5 of 3 right now. If it was 333 right now, I might freak out. I see that a lot. Do you? But, yeah, I'm just obsessed with that number. And then Instagram. Oh, Instagram is DirtDiva333, and Twitter is DirtDiva33. I think that for some reason I couldn't get the 33.

And then Facebook, I have an athlete page because my regular page is full, which is like whatever. So I have an athlete page. And Truman has a page too. Does Truman have his own Instagram? He doesn't because, like, just keep us together. It's too complicated. His little paws can't really use the phone that well. Uh-huh.

Yeah. We just let him have a Facebook. It's too complicated. Right. His little paws can't really use the phone that well. Uh-huh. Yeah. We just let him have a Facebook. He has a Facebook athlete page. Uh-huh. Truman has a lot of personality. I'm telling you, if you've never gotten a dose of Truman, you're in for a treat. Most everybody has seen him around. Cool.

And they like their selfies. Like, my poor crew guy, he was, like, at one of the aid stations. And all you see is these pictures of his arm and Truman. Like, everybody's taking pictures of Truman. He goes, my arm, it got really popular, my arm. Oh, my God. Yeah. Awesome.

Well, you're super inspiring. Thank you. I just want to recognize you for all the amazing work that you're doing. Thank you. It's really cool to follow your path and all your racing and all the fun stuff that you do and the spirit in which you do it. And I just want you to keep doing it. Thank you. I will.

I'll keep going. I appreciate you coming by and talking to me today. I appreciate it, too. Thank you for having me. So come back anytime. I will. And I'll bring Truman. Next time if we can go running.

Yes. Yeah, I have to bring Truman. Truman can do an interview. Truman would be great, especially on the video. Yeah. All right, Katja. Thank you so much. Thank you.

All right. Peace. Awesome. Let video. Yeah. All right, Katra. Thank you so much. Thank you. All right, peace. Awesome. Let's. Infectious, right? That's the word that comes to mind, infectious. She's such a force of nature. I absolutely love that woman.

Hope you guys enjoyed that as much as I enjoyed having it. For more on Katra, please check out the show notes on the episode page at richroll.com to take your experience beyond the earbuds. And do me a favor and let Katra know how this one landed for you by sharing your thoughts with her directly. You can find her on Twitter at DirtDiva33

and on Instagram at DirtDiva333. And don't forget to pick up her new book, Reborn on the Run. If you're looking for nutritional guidance, check out our meal planner at meals.richroll.com. There you will find thousands of plant-based recipes, delicious, nutritious, easy to prepare, all customized based on your personal preferences with unlimited grocery lists and even grocery delivery in most metropolitan areas. We have amazing customer support.

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I want to thank everybody who helped put on the show today. Jason Camiello for audio engineering, production, show notes, interstitial music. I'm giving him more and more things to do on the show. So I think the catch-all phrase for him right now is quote-unquote producer, and he's doing a great job. Blake Curtis and Margo Lubin for videoing the podcast and editing it and coming up with all the graphics in assistance with Jessica Miranda. Allie Rogers for snapping a few portraits of this episode. David Kahn for advertiser relationships and theme music as always by Annalema. Thanks for the love you guys. See you back here next week for a deep dive

into health and wellness and nutrition with none other than plant-based nutrition legend, Dean Ornish, Dr. Dean Ornish and his wife, Ann Ornish. It's a great one. You guys are gonna love it. But until then, peace, plants, running, namaste. Thank you.