The Rich Roll Podcast - How Emily Harrington Became The First Woman To Free Climb El Cap’s Golden Gate In Under 24 Hours

Episode Date: October 6, 2025

Emily Harrington is a professional climber who became the first woman to free climb El Capitan's Golden Gate route in under 24 hours, captured in the documentary Girl Climber. This conversation explores her 50-foot fall that nearly ended everything, the eating disorder that almost destroyed her career, and how crying while climbing became her strength. We discuss her innovative double-shoe technique, losing mentor Hilary Nelson while pregnant, and why she calls Mount Everest "Steve." Emily brings radical vulnerability to a sport dominated by the boys' club, proving that showing your breaking points doesn't make you weak, it makes you human. Enjoy! Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube Newsletter Sign-Up Today’s Sponsors: LMNT: Get a free LMNT Sample Pack with any purchase 👉 https://www.drinklmnt.com/richroll    Squarespace: Use code RichRoll to save 10% off your first order of a website or domain 👉http://www.squarespace.com/RichRoll AG1: Get a FREE bottle of D3K2, Welcome Kit, and 5 travel packs with your first order 👉https://www.drinkAG1.com/richroll On: High-performance shoes & apparel crafted for comfort and style 👉https://www.on.com/richroll  Bon Charge Get 15% OFF all my favorite wellness products w/ code RICHROLL 👉https://www.boncharge.com Rivian: Electric vehicles that keep the world adventurous forever👉https://www.rivian.com Check out all the amazing discounts from our Sponsors 👉 https://www.richroll.com/sponsors   Find out more about Voicing Change Media at https://www.voicingchange.media and follow us @voicingchange

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what's actually working, where your audience comes from, what content resonates, real data instead of guessing. So head on over to Squarespace.com slash Richroll to save 10,000, percent off your first purchase of a website or domain using the code ritual. There's one sequence in that film that is definitely like the most terrifying thing that I've seen in a climbing movie. Can we talk about the fall? Yeah, so I had tried to achieve this goal for climbing Golden Gate in a day and I just remember like slipping and falling over sideways. Like I think my foot slipped. It fell about 50 feet. And so I hit like a ledge and flipped upside down, hit my head, lost consciousness.

It was very bad. Don't be afraid to do things in your own way, to fail in your own way, to not be afraid of fear, to not be afraid to try hard and care about things and be vulnerable and be open. And it's really not all about success. The majority of life is about how we deal with failure and how we deal with discomfort and struggle. And so I think we should never be able. a shame to be a part of that. Just go for it. Emily Harrington, you guys, Emily Harrington. Emily is, there's really only one way to say it. She's a badass. Emily is one of the most

accomplished and versatile professional climbers in the world. Man or woman, she's a seven-time national champion known also for mastering these legendary big walls and insane peaks, among which, of course, includes Everest, where she met her husband, friend of the podcast, Adrian Ballinger. But Emily is probably best known for free climbing Yosemite's L. Cap, which she did in less than 24 hours, which is astonishing. And she's also the first to do it by way of this very challenging route called Golden Gate, all of which is captured in her new nail-biter of a documentary called Girl

Climber. So yeah, Emily's a beast, but you know who else is a beast? My mom. Yeah, it's true. All hunched over at 82. This is a person who knows exactly how to push my buttons because, as they say, in AA, she installed them. And let's just say over the past handful of days, she, meaning my mom, has me pretty lit up. And so, yeah, I need to talk about it. Let's talk about it because the thing is, my mom now has dementia.

Her brain no longer works the way it used to. except for the part i should point out uh that knows exactly how to punish me but that aside yeah it's um it's really sad uh it's painful uh but it's also a chaotic and dangerous situation right now uh that over the last handful of weeks has demanded a new level of my personal involvement. So over the past couple days, several days, my life has really been about showing up, being of service, and returning her tough love by having to do some tough things myself, to do some sober and rather somber adulting because life has been lifing. By way of background, it's been about a month since I've been home.

I was in New York City for like a week. Then I went to D.C. to see my parents. Then I was back to New York. Then I went to Tokyo for almost two weeks. Then back to New York City. Mainly to move forward on my book. But let's just say God had other plans for me. Because basically shortly after I arrived in New York City,

I needed to pivot and go immediately back to Washington as things on the family front. really started to spiral a bit out of hand. And my dad, God bless him, he's been managing my mother's decline for a very long time, doing the best that he possibly could for years at this point, living with her alone in their home in Washington, D.C. And while my sister lives there as well and has been showing up and doing her best,

really on the front lines of this for a long time to pitch in and to assist, it recently just reached a new level of unmanageability and basically insanity. And the deal is essentially that my mom at this point really can't remember much of anything from one minute to the next. She barely recognizes me anymore. She doesn't really know where I live or that I've been married for like 25 years or really even that she has grandchildren. And on top of it all, this is somebody who's always been a very fearful person, a very controlling person. judgmental uncompromising prone to angry outbursts and just the kind of person whose emotional needs

have always been a little bit more urgent than anyone else's needs that must be met without all that much awareness around how her behavior impacts everyone else around her in that way where you know these people that just tend to suck up all the oxygen in every room they enter that's kind of her and that is just kind of the deal it's always been the deal and now in this more advanced stage of mental decline it's on full display and as much as people say it's not her it's the disease the truth is it really is kind of her just without the filter and turned all the way up to 11 and i know enough from hosting so many experts on the podcast over the years that this, her difficult, challenging behavior

is really just a response to trauma that she suffered in her earlier years. Due to an unavailable mother who was a depressive shut-in, my mom is somebody who just never really quite learned how to give and receive love, how to be open, how to be vulnerable, how to be emotionally intimate. And the love that she did entrust in others, in her dad, and in her older brother,

was returned with both of them passing away on her when she was still fairly young. Her dad from a heart attack and her brother by way of a tragic auto accident. And because this went down in the 70s and my mom being who she is, instead of seeking out help to process all of this, she essentially just compartmentalized it,

pushed it down, pushed it away. And for the past 50 years, just basically pretended that she was fine, that everything was fine, when her behavior consistently, and it's basically always said otherwise, in this controlling nature that she has, driven by a fear of abandonment, which in my case meant that my mother was basically ill-equipped

to meet my emotional needs when I was young, because my job was, and basically has always been, to meet her needs instead, as the person responsible for making her feel safe. Anyway, there's a lot more to say about, her, about me, about attachment theory, transference, unhealed trauma, projection, and the work that I've done to overcome the wounds caused by all of that. But the point for now is that the moment arrived where she really could no longer take care

of herself. And taking care of her became too much for any one person to do, let alone my dad. Assisted living has been on the table for some time, but, you know, my mom is a person who lives in such a state of denial that she refuses to even see a doctor for a simple medical checkup. She gets angry if the subject even comes up and she's so far away from anything resembling acceptance that a prospect of moving her out of her home into a safe place where she can be cared for is just something resembling mission impossible. And so this is where I come in because it's been too much for my dad and my sister are to manage on their own. So my week, which was

intended to be focused on writing, you know, working on this book, turned into a maternal intervention, which was this all hands-on-deck, multi-day Ocean's 11 type operation to essentially rip the band-aid off to get my mother out of the house and into a place that could provide her with the help that she needs, which was no small thing. It's a long story. But despite the insanely high degree of difficulty, we were successful. We got her into a memory care facility. The goal was achieved. But it was about as emotionally difficult and draining as you can imagine.

Just the sadness, the guilt, but also confusingly the catharsis, because my dad, who still has quite a bit of life force and vitality in him, has basically been held prisoner by her for years, doing his best to take care of her without complaining, enduring her confusion, her anger, her outbursts, which can be so intense, it really has been for him sort of elder abuse that has prevented him from being able to really even leave the house.

And so as hard as this experience has been, it's also been this incredible gift that I got to help give to my, my dad, the gift of him getting to have more life, liberated from the burden he has been enduring longer than anyone should ever have to, which as hard as it's been for him, has been this beautiful, albeit, let's just say, somewhat codependent, but essentially selfless commitment and demonstration of love for her that is this weird mix of unhealthy but also inspiring. So I'm pretty rung out, but I am grateful. I'm grateful that my mom is safe now. I'm grateful

that I got to participate in returning some life to my dad to contribute to alleviating some of the burden that my sister has been shouldering, to be able to show up, sober, and do the right thing the hard thing in service to my family in this moment of need this is what being sober is all about you get to show up you get to be there you get to be present you get to stand up for the people you love and that gift this gift is something that has given me just such incredible gratitude meaning and what it means to truly love. Did you know that Emily Harrington is on the pod?

Hard gear shift here. Well, she is, and this one rocks hard. It's about risk. It's about embracing fear, accepting failure. It's about curiosity, the importance of cultivating a beginner's mind. We talk about humility. We discuss what it's like for her being a woman amidst the Boys Club culture of climbing.

We talk about her friendship with the late Hillary Nelson, a friend of the podcast, who was very much Emily's mentor, and the role that vulnerability plays in Emily's high-risk, high-performance adventures, which in my experience is demonstrated in this conversation and also on-screen in her super gnarly doc in a way I actually had never before seen

in climbers. So this is good stuff, people. Emily really sends it. So send yourself into this one. And when it's done, do the thing by dialing up girl climber. Which screened briefly in IMAX theaters, but is now available to stream at jolt.film. Enjoy.

So nice to have you here today. Thanks for having me. I feel like I'm this late. person who has this privileged opportunity to host all these conversations with all of these climbers like most of the people who appear in the movie have sat across from me at some point Alex has been here a couple times your husband what a beautiful man Adrian Hillary Nelson who I want to talk about Conrad Anchor and not being a climber myself and just somebody who is just an average person who kind of watches these movies it's always interesting because I feel like I get it

And then I realize with each successive, like, new film that I watch, I'm like, oh, I don't get it at all. Like, it's so hard to grasp the enormity and the difficulty of these types of challenges. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's, I think that's probably true in any, like, elite athletic world or any world in general, right? Like, there's these little nuances and subtleties that you kind of just get a peek into when you're, like, a lay person or in the mainstream. But I think that's kind of the beauty of films like this is that it does give people a glimpse into this, like, elite, athletic world. I want to understand your life and your career, but we're here on the occasion of this documentary that's about to be released called Girl Climber.

It tells your story through the vehicle of this goal that you set for yourself, which is to be the first woman to climb this particular route up El Capitan in under 24 hours. And it takes you multiple attempts to do that. So maybe we can begin with just talking about this goal specifically and what it is about El Cap that is so magnetic for the climbing community. El Capitan. I mean, it's just the biggest, most difficult, most beautiful wall in the world. It also just happens to be in Yosemite National Park, which is a very accessible place compared to a lot of places in the world.

You know, there are L-cap-sized walls in the world, but they're in these incredibly remote corners of the earth that are super difficult to get to. And the thing about Yosemite granite is it's incredibly smooth and polished and solid, so you don't have a lot of like choss is what we call it, which is like loose rock. It's just sheer and it's steep and it's so difficult. And climbers have been going there for decades to test them. themselves on these walls. And initially, everyone thought it was impossible, impossible to get up, impossible to free climb. But gradually, over the decades, there's been these outstanding achievements on this wall. And so it's also historic. And no climber doesn't know what El Capitan is. And it's kind of that place that you go to test yourself. It's a proven ground in a way.

The documentary Valley Uprising does a pretty good job of recounting that history, you know, sort of this rogues gallery of like, you know, like sort of van life dropouts and, you know, you know, in a period of time that was very kind of like counterculture. Exactly. Yeah, it used to be like climbers were essentially these outcasts of society that were just living in their cars or living in the dirt in the valley. At that time, though, you could basically just set up camp like in the park though at the base of the climb.

It's not like that anymore, right? Like you have to drive in and out or how does that work? Yeah, it's been, yeah, I think back in the day it was a bit easier, but also it's been a national park for quite a while, and there are a lot of rules. And it's a little bit tough to exist in the valley as a climber. I mean, yeah, throughout the years, there's been differing relationships with the park between climbers. A lot of climbers used to like poach camping or, yeah, just arrive in the dark, sleep and then leave early morning. I've, heard of climbers who slept in the boulder fields at the base of the walls, like in these

little caves. So there's like tension between the park rangers and the kind of civilian campers in the climbing community who are trying to always kind of like be stealth and get away with stuff? Well, yeah, and there's rules, right? Like, and you're not meant to stay for more than 14 days, but climbers stay there for much, much longer. So throughout the years and throughout these like generations there's been tension between the rangers and the climbers. I would say it's greatly improved now just because the way that climbing is so mainstream now and we've kind of had to mature and had to develop good relationships with these places that we visit and Yosemdi is an example of that. Yeah. One of the things that you comment on in the film is the boys club

nature of the climbing community, and I inferred from that, you know, specifically around Yosemite and L. Cap, is that, like, historically been true? Or what is the, like, how does, how does a female climber fit into that subculture? Well, it's interesting because, you know, the most maybe well-known achievement on El Capitan, aside from Alex Honnold free soloing it, is Lynn Hill and her achievement. So that kind of, it's interesting that a woman sort of owns that groundbreaking like once and every, you know, every other generation achievement and it's on L cap. And there are women who excel up there and have excelled up there over the years. But it is a little bit similar to a lot of other, you know, on the edge type activities where you'll have like one or two women, but then the rest will be men. And it very much does feel like you're.

little bit of an outlier that is changing, I would say, even since what I did in Yosemite in 2020 in the last five years or so, there's been a lot of activity from women on L-Cap. And so that's just like anything, I think that's changing rapidly. But yeah, of course, climbing is primarily a male dominated sport. And as you get into these different disciplines that require a bit more risk and a bit more experience, there's generally just more men than women. But Lynn was always your North Star, like dating back all the way to you being a little kid, like obsessed with climbing. Yeah, I mean, Lynn Hill was the first person I found out about when I started climbing.

It was like, oh, Lynn Hill, first person to free climb the nose in under 24 hours, like the most badass achievement in rock climbing history. And I just thought that that was so amazing that it was a woman. And what is the relationship, you know, between her and then this goal that you set for yourself? So she was the first person to free climb L cap in a day. And, you know, it's still still the root that she did, the nose hasn't been completed in a day by very many people. I think maybe just Tommy Caldwell has done it. So it really was this achievement that stands out and it broke through. It was this, it was groundbreaking. It was pioneering. It was something nobody thought was possible. And then she did it.

And so in my mind, climbing was a place for women to excel. And I really found a lot of inspiration in that. But as a young girl, I was really focused on climbing competitions and sport climbing, which is just a different genre entirely from big wall free climbing, which is what climbing on Lcap is. And then throughout the years, as I sort of diversified in my climbing, free climbing on L-Cap came, came into my, you know, perspective of something that maybe I could do someday. And so it just gradually, it kind of like, it was this first thing I found out about, but I never really thought it was for me because I was so focused on competition climbing and I wanted to, like, go to the Olympics and win World Cups.

And then as I grew and developed and matured as a climber, I decided that maybe someday I could free climb El Cap in a day. I mean, you straight up say, like, basically at the beginning of the movie, like, you're at the base of El Cap, and you're like, nobody talks about how scary this is. Yeah. You know, like, everyone's just, you know, alpha. Yeah. And it's like, no, this is like, it never gets smaller. I'm always amazed at how big it is. And it's really fucking scary.

Yeah. And I think most of the stories we see about El Cap are, you know, the Donwall and Free Solo are these two figures that are just, I mean, I don't think that Alex really feels that much fear when he's up there. He has a very different relationship. He has a very unique relationship with fear. Totally different human. And then Tommy Caldwell has probably spent more hours of his life on the side of L-Cap than, like, in his own bed. So for me, I think it was important to kind of convey just the enormity of that place and how special but also terrifying it can be for some people and for me. But I still went up there.

And I think that that was a cool part of the story and a part that people really relate to and can identify with. I know that at least originally, you weren't crazy about the title of the movie, Girl Climber, right? Yeah, I really didn't like it. I mean, I think a lot of people don't like it still, but I really, I didn't like it. Do you like it now or do you still not like it? No, I'm into it now. I think it's good, yeah. So what is it that you didn't like about it and how did you change your mind about that?

I think I had this really visceral, like, knee-jerk reaction to it, that it was, like, putting this label on me, and it was somehow diminishing me and my achievement and just, I think that it was that. The cringy girl power kind of vibe to it. Yeah, exactly, cringy girl power kind of vibe. But then it's kind of like you watch the movie and you see that there is a lot of, there's a lot of feminine. in the film and there's a lot you're emoting in a way that like male climbers are not you know are not and there's something really kind of like honest and refreshing about that I think and I think like the emotions in it and the vulnerabilities I think a lot of times those those types of things are perceived as a weakness and I think the film does a really nice job of revealing those as a strength also the title girl climber like

how is that going to sit with the climbing community yeah I think it's least liked by the climbing community. I think a lot of people in the mainstream kind of like really liked it and thought it was a cool title and kind of like owns that female climbing story. Whereas a lot of climbers are like, this title is so dumb. Like why would, why would anybody name it like that? You know, and I get that side of things. But also I think as like language evolves, for me, the title doesn't emote that so much

anymore. And especially once you see the film, you just kind of see like, okay, like this is a powerful story. It's about a woman. There's a lot of like female-centric themes going on in the film. But with a light touch. It's not the focus. The focus of the film isn't like, you know, the place of women in climbing. It's not, it's just sort of inferred. And there's, you know, there's references here and there to it without like drawing too much focus on it. I mean, You like, you know, you're like, okay, here comes the mansplaining, you know, from all the L-CAP dudes who are going to tell me how to do this. And it's like, I know how to set a goal. Like, you know, it's cool, but like, I got it.

And I think it's, I think there's a lot of humor in it as well. Yeah. Um, which I also really like. Like, I think Alex is truly like pure comedy throughout the whole thing. He's, he's one of the funniest people. Like, I don't think, I don't, I think his humor is underappreciated. You know, like, he's really funny. He's really funny.

He has incredible comedic timing. timing, he's dry. Yeah. And I think that that really shows in the film, which is, those are some of my favorite scenes in the whole movie. Alex, also a mentor, but basically you're, you know, kind of like compadre in this whole thing, who's there right by your side throughout, you know, all of these four attempts that you make. Yeah, yeah. And I, I am super grateful that he's like willing to keep going up there with me and other people now. He just seems like good to go. He's good to go.

He's a, but, you know, that's good. We're talking about, like, getting up at one in the morning, getting up a day. It's like, this is not like, oh, we're going to sleep in until nine and start this thing. Yeah, no. This is not like, you know, this is a lot. Yeah, and he loves it. I do think that that is, like, truly his happy place. He likes going up there.

He likes being up there. He likes helping other people. He likes, like, showing his expertise and knowledge and sharing it. And such a steady, calm, even keel, like, presence to have like right there, you know, for every step. Yeah, I always say when I'm with Alex, like I climb better. I'm more confident. I like do things that I didn't think I could do. What is it about him to your mind that makes him different and special? I think he is exactly who he shows himself to be. You know, like if he doesn't like something, he'll tell you. If he thinks

something is stupid. He will straight up say that is stupid. Yeah. And so when he's telling you that you're doing well or showing you that he believes in you, you know that he means it. And he's just an incredibly smart and capable person as well. And even though it doesn't seem like it at first, and maybe he's sort of evolved into this, but he does, he is a great supporter for those reasons because he can be brutally honest. And he really does care for his friends. And he wants to see them succeed. And so it's just this very genuine presence. I love the scenes where you're like sorting out your gear. And he's like, oh, you're going to, that's what you're going to bring that. Like, you sure you need this? He's like, okay. Yeah. And then when you get like a little

nod of approval, you're like, yes. It's pretty funny. And, and there's a lot of almost no footage of him climbing, really. He's sort of this presence that's there, you know, on the wall with you. But there's a very short, very brief clip. And he's wearing like a red, like, hoodie. The hood is, the hood is up. And he just makes this, like, real quick move, like where he kind of just goes up, like, 10 feet.

But it's like, it's almost, I mean, literally he looks like Spider-Man. I was like, he just kind of went like this up the mountain with just an incredible, like, degree of like balletic precision and you're like oh my god like in that two seconds like I saw somebody do something that I you know like I didn't think humans could do and I was like it was kind of like all do you know what I'm talking about that one little clip I'm not sure I know what you're talking about but you have to remember that the fact that he had a red hood his hood red hood was over his head I mean it was like oh it is spider man yeah I can see that well you have to remember that like the section of the wall that he climbed with me is the same as the free rider route so that's the

the same terrain that he frees soloed. So he's practiced that. A bazillion times. A bazillion, yeah, more than, you know. Yeah. It's like he knows it like the back of his hand, which is why he's such a great partner up there in part. There's one sequence in the film that is definitely like the most terrifying thing

that I've seen in a climbing movie. Can we talk about the fall? Like, I don't want to give away everything, but like we have to talk about this. Yeah. That was an unfortunate incident. So set it up. Yeah, so I had tried to achieve this goal for you climbing Golden Gate in a day in mid-November of 2019. And I came incredibly close to success.

Like, I essentially failed in the very last hard section of the route around 3,000 feet off the ground. I just, like, couldn't complete this one section. And so it was a failure. You're done. Go home. That's it. And I, so I decided to try again, maybe a week later, maybe 10 days later. And you have to, I think of it like, it's kind of like doing an ultramarathon.

Like you put in so much physical and mental energy. And usually after you do something like that, you need to like take a break, take a step back. But for me, I had this, had this angst of like, I just want to get it done. Like, I just want to do it this year. I wanted to be done. I want to complete it, that ticking clock type feeling. And so I set out to try again, not long after that one very close attempt. And this was attempt three?

Yeah, it was attempt number three. And I remember waking up that morning. It was like at, you know, whatever, three in the morning. And I just remember I just didn't want to go climbing. Like I just didn't want to. I was feeling afraid. I was feeling hesitant. it was just like all that those red flags in your head but I just pushed through I was just like

really kind of like adopted that like almost punishment mindset of my youth like just do it just like suck it up not listening to get up there not really being honest with very much like just suck it up get up there go do this thing get it over with and you can't just like get it over with when you're trying to do a 24 a 24 hour a cent of L cap like it's just a bad mindset so basically I got to the base it was really really cold um there was it was the end of november there was a storm coming the next day there was just all this like anxious energy in the air um there was also like a lot of humidity as well like i think the storm was coming and but it was also like below freezing so there was just like it almost felt like there was a little bit of frost on the wall um but i just kept like

no matter what happened i was just like stop thinking about it you need to go you need to go you need to go you need to go So I started climbing, and Alex and I, what we do is we simulclimb the bottom of the route. So you're basically like ascending the wall together, just attached with the rope. It's kind of like between like normal free climbing when you're just being belayed pitch by pitch and like free soloing. It's kind of like it's not ideal for either person to fall in this scenario, but it's used as a speed tactic. Doing it that way allows you to move more quickly. We move so fast, like so much faster. And so I'd started and I just.

was like not placing very much gear because you want to like be able to spread out your protection over really long distance because you don't want to have to stop. So I was just placing like very little protection. And I just remember like in my head like just telling myself like be confident, be confident, be confident, like keep moving, keep moving. I just was motoring. And I just, I hadn't placed very much gear, and I just remember, like, I just kind of remember slipping and falling over, tipping over sideways. Like, I think my foot slipped something like that. You fall 50 feet. I fell about 50 feet, yep. And the way the bottom of the wall is, like, pretty, it's less than vertical, so it's a slab. That means that the falls are very not clean. So I hit,

like, I just kind of tumbled down and hit, like, a ledge and flipped upside down. Um, hit my head, lost consciousness. It was very bad. We're brought to you today by AG1. Listen, nutrition is something that all of us, wellness-concerned folks, have a little bit of a proclivity for unnecessarily over-complicating,

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Head to On.com slash Richroll to explore gear that supports you every step of the way. In the film, the camera is on Alex at the base. yeah uh it's the middle of the night's pitch dark out and and suddenly the rope starts to you know like you can hear a little bit and then the rope starts to go like this and he like grabs it yeah and then holds on to it and then all you hear is like you screaming in the distance it's like it's like it's an absolute horror movie you know yeah it's horrible and he's like oh my god you know and and and you know starts trying to get up there to find out what's going on but not but like in Classic Alex Honnold, like, complete calmness, you know, to handle a crisis.

But that was absolutely terrifying to watch. And then to see, you know, you get kind of hauled off, you know, in, you know, you're all in, what do you call that, like in traction, you know, put into the. Unlike the backboard and everything. Yeah. I mean, absolutely, like, that's crazy shit, man. Yeah, I often, I often leave the theater when that's. is it's got to be hard for you to see that yeah it's just hard it just keeps going like the wailing and the it's just very visceral and like traumatic and so i often like don't i prefer to not watch it

yeah and he's like it's bad it's bad like you know it's bad yeah yeah so yeah and you're like okay i'm gonna do it again yeah well that's i mean you're like like it ended up not being that bad it wasn't that bad yeah look really bad the thing that i think happened to me though is people are often like, oh, why didn't you, you know, did you ever think about quitting? Did you ever think about not trying again? Like, didn't that experience, like, kind of like scare you into not wanting to do it? But the thing is, like, I pretty much immediately recognized, like, all of those red flags along the way that I could totally control in the future. Like, it wasn't like this huge objective hazard like random rock fall or like some sort of avalanche or something that you really

can't predict it was like everything that happened was fully within my control yeah i i can choose when to go climbing i can choose how much gear to place like i can choose how fast to go so i just felt like i had made all these mistakes so i had a lot of agency moving forward in terms of what i could do differently what i took from that though was uh was something a little bit different like you're in the hospital and you're very upset and you're like, I did everything right. I didn't do anything wrong. I did everything right.

And to me, I was like, yeah, you can do everything right. And this is still what can happen. You know what I mean? So it's like that idea that, oh,

yes, I can control this because I know how to do all these moves and all of that. That's where it gets scary for me, you know, because it's, you know, your husband talks a lot about like ego versus humility. Like, you did a whole TED talk on it, right?

And so it's like the humility required to understand that, yes, you can do everything right and still, like nature might have a different plan for you. Yeah, totally. And I think as climbers and mountain people, we kind of accept a certain level of that, you know, in everything, no matter where you fall on that risk spectrum. Yeah. You go back the following year for the next season. You train your butt off.

You, you know, you work all of those. challenging aspects of the wall that were tripping you up previously and it's attempt number four and and you're kind of like I mean we can like I don't want to do like a race report type thing where we do like every aspect of this I'm watching this going please make to the top because I don't know if I can handle watching her do this again from the bottom so much but you're very close where you you then fall and it's another like you see you fall and you see your head like hitting hitting the rock and you're like oh this is not happening again yeah that's exactly what it felt like that time it felt like i was

doing everything right i was just crushing it i felt so good and then i just kind of slipped and fell and and then i felt stupid for smashing my head and it just yeah it was just this crushing disappointment that I felt. In that moment, you're very emotional. I mean, you essentially have like a breakdown. Your head is bleeding. Like, it looks bad.

Like, I saw your head hit the rock. I'm like, who knows what actually, because you don't know, like, this could be a really bad concussion. You don't actually know. Your confidence is erased. Like, you're just a mess. You're a wreck.

You've got Alex there. You've got Adrian there. and they're tending to you. But I thought it was so interesting that Adrian's like, as you begin to calm down, he's like, you know, I think you can do this. And I was like, oh, my God, he's going to push her to do this. Like, I would have thought he would be like, look, there'll be another day, you know, like your skills are dialed. Like, you know, it just wasn't your day. We're going to have to do this again.

But for him to say, I know you and like, I know that, you know that, you can make. make this happen. I was like, oh my God. I guess that's the climbing mentality because it's like who knows what's actually going on in your skull, you know, at that time. Also, to be to like have all of your, you're like, all of your confidence is gone. Yeah, that was the big thing you need. Yeah. So we did do like a, there was like a pretty heavy like first aid like concussion assessment to make sure that I was actually wasn't showing signs of concussion, which I didn't. That didn't make it into the movie. No, I didn't lose. consciousness. There was a lot of things that, you know, we're all like woofers, wilderness

responders. So we like, we did the whole scenario. And Adrian is quite good at these situations because he encounters them a lot just with his profession as a mountain guide. And so he was like, you know, he was rationally like, I think you're okay. We're up here. Really, the best way out of this is up because we're that high on the wall. It's quite. hard to bail down. So it really was just like, okay, we either like ascend the ropes to get out and then walk the three hours down, you know? The safest and quickest way to get out of here is to just complete this thing.

Or you try again because I, you know, he's like, or you try again because I think you're okay. Physically you're okay. You don't have a concussion. So why not? Just give it another try. And I think that was the attitude that I needed to hear. And that like true belief in me, when I really did like, you're right, confidence erased, this isn't happening.

I can't believe this is happening again. Like how could this be like disbelief just like kind of shattered, I think? My spirit was shattered. And I think, yeah, having him in that position and telling me that he thought I could do it and that I needed to try again was really, really important. Obviously, he knows you better than anyone. Exactly. And wouldn't have said that if he didn't truly believe that you could do it. So what makes that so profound for me is, you know, your husband, your life partner, like, has that, like, kind of conviction and belief in you, which is really cool. Um, and just the experience of, of, of prevailing, like, pushing through,

like that, you know, this is like, if it's a movie, this is like the, second act you know like the this is where all hope is lost right yeah and somehow you find a way to prevail and like isn't that the whole the whole like ball game with climbing like from you being 10 years old at the boulder reservoir and being like I was scared but I but I overcame it and got to the top and like that is the most like you know on on L cap like you're having the most extreme version of that experience and it was it was one of the more profound experience of my life was like that climbing again. It really was that flow state like it's hard to explain. It was like I wasn't even there. It was like I was watching myself in a way and I was just executing the moves and it felt easy. How are you maintaining your energy levels over 21 hours, you know, on that, on that wall? Like what is the hydration and the fueling? I know like you guys ran out of water, right? We did run out of water. That was a bummer. That was that. That was that. Right before the last pitch, we ran the water.

Yeah, we, you know, obviously, like, at first, Alex was supporting me, so he was carrying a backpack, and he was just, like, ascending the rope a lot of the times. And so he had a pretty heavy backpack with, like, snacks and water. And then Adrian actually came down from the top, and he also brought, like, water and snacks. And so you're just kind of constantly fueling, just like, you know, any, like, triathlon, ultra run type thing. Every hour, you're fueling every pitch, you're drinking water and eating a little bit. What is it that you're eating? Like, are you eating, like, you know, bar? bars and nuts and things like, what kind of food?

Everybody's different. But yeah, like bars and nuts and dried fruit. I didn't, I don't like to eat like real food up there as much. It's like I remember Alex being like, you need to bring like a sandwich. I was like, I just don't, I don't think a sandwich is right for me. But a lot of like, I also dealt with a lot of cramping. So like some, some salty things as well, like making sure to get electrolytes. Because it's crazy.

you'll like start on big walls you'll start your hands will start to cramp and they just kind of like form like this and you can't you have to like physically open your fingers yeah like tetsy or whatever they call that yeah i don't know what it's called and like at some point you have to go to the bathroom right like how does that work uh well you just pee off the wall basically um and i'm very good at it it's much harder for women but i do have a good system that i use um and then yeah on a 24 hour sent you generally go to the bathroom before, or you just don't go at all, just because that's kind of like how your body works. But usually it is like very much leave no trace principles, much like in the mountains. So we carry wag bags with us. And then you just like carry it up and

out. You bring it out with you. Yeah. Most people who do this climb that you did in 21 hours do it over like five days, right? Yeah, five to seven-ish. Five to seven days. And you're setting up, What is it called, like, where you kind of set up. A cordal edge. Yeah, and you're literally sleeping on the wall. Yeah, it's like a piece of nylon with aluminum poles and you kind of like construct it. And then it becomes really taught. And so you can sit on it and sleep on it and you set it up and clip it into the wall.

And that's your body. How is it possible to fall asleep on those things? Oh, you'd be surprised. So I climbed Golden Gate for the first time I climbed it over six days. It's also not in the film in 2015. Adrian and I went up and climbed it over many days and it's interesting how like you just are doing so much all the time all day

that when you finally do get to lay down and be horizontal you just you just fall asleep like it's amazing humans are very adaptable and in terms of like what what are you know your body just looks it just looks terrifying to me I would just be so like insanely afraid that I wouldn't be Obviously. Right. I know. That's like a trust thing though. It's like, I'm like, are those things really going to hold me? Yeah. Yeah. No, but I guess as climbers, you kind of like get used to that from the beginning with trusting ropes and stuff. But for me, it's funny because if I go back to Yosemite or go back to a big wall and I'm up really high, it does take a while for me to trust everything. Like I have trouble sitting back. I have trouble trusting the rope. Like there's a lot of things where I get really weighed down. What are they called the pins in the rock, you know, that the calipers are on?

Like, I don't know any of the terms. Yeah, like the bolts. Like, is that really going to, is that going to hold? Yeah. And what is that? What's that, like, when you're in the, in the, the crags or like the crevices and you have that, like, metal thing. The expand, the device that expands. It's called a cam.

It's called a cam. So it's spring loaded. So you squeeze it and it contracts. And it will hold you. Yeah. And so you can literally, it will hold your body weight when you're pulling yourself. Yep. And more, obviously. Wow.

And, like, a lot of impact on falls and stuff. You know, they're rated to hold much more, obviously. Yeah. Yeah, I'm like, I don't know. Could I trust that thing? Baby steps, though. Yeah, I guess, right? Like, definitely baby steps.

How do you train? Like, what is the training regimen like for this? Do you have a coach? How does that work? I didn't have a coach for Golden Gate in a day. I do now, actually, because it's just like a lot. harder to fit in with a kid. But training for it was really difficult because it's, it required an, it required a really

interesting set of fitness. Like, I equate it to having to run an ultra marathon, but at the end, you have to do your best mile splits because L cap is, is kind of structured that way. The bottom, the bottom two-thirds is the easiest climbing. And then the top is when the climbing gets steeper and much. more difficult. And so you had to know, you had to be able to climb 2,500 feet of like relatively easy terrain and then be able to execute really difficult moves way up high on the wall. So you had to have like strength and endurance. And, you know, I guess as athletes you know that

like it's really hard to kind of excel at both. Like the more endurance you have, generally that's when like your power and strength goes down. And so you're trying to find that perfect line where it's like, you're capable of both. And for me, it was a lot of, like, I trained a lot of, I trained a lot in the climbing gym. I trained my fingers a lot. And you do that by, with those hanging on a couple edges and with different hand positions for periods of times. That's something that climbers do that's, you know, very common. But then I also mimicked the day a lot.

So one day I went to our local crag and I climbed. 34 pitches. And I tried to do the hardest ones at the very end. So I just like tried to mimic the day. And just a lot of climbing. And then going to Yosemite a month beforehand and practicing the pitches. And I did like sections of the route. Like at one point, my friend Jordan and I, who was also trying to climb Golden Gate in a day. We did like, we basically did it in two days. Like we climbed from the bottom up to the middle. And then the next day or two days later, we wrapped down to the very middle and climbed out. So you're kind of just like, You're simulating that fitness, yeah, over time.

And are you doing anything, like, in the gym or aerobically that isn't as climbing specific? I mean, I've always been a trail runner, and I think that, like, having that, like, base level fitness helps, especially with, like, the hiking and stuff that you do in Yosemite. It's just a lot of big days where you don't want to get, you want to be fit enough that, like, the approaches and the descents don't exhaust you. So I definitely trail run like kind of probably like two or three times a week. Yeah. And do you taper or periodize that? Like how specific does it get? It gets pretty specific now.

I think when I was training for Golden Gate, it was a little bit like you definitely rest a lot before the attempt like up to four or five days. And yeah, trying to taper a little bit, not climbing as often, but when you are climbing having really high quality days. And yeah, I try to build my strength and power early, early on because that's, that type of strength takes longer to acquire, but it also stays with you a little bit longer. And then leading up to a trip or project like this, like building on that endurance. Yeah. Well, you were pretty jacked in the movie.

Yeah. You were like, yeah, I worked really, really hard at that season. Like, so strong. It's crazy. I worked really hard. I went sport climbing a bunch that summer. And, yeah, like I said, I was, like, trying to climb really hard sport climbing grades, like 514, which is like an elite level grade.

But then, you know, usually if you're just trying to climb those grades, you'd try a hard route, and then you'd stop and you'd rest, and that's all you'd do. But for me, I was, like, trying the hardest route, and then I would keep climbing after that, you know, kind of just, like, burn out the whole, my whole body. So there's a physical aspect of it, but there's also the whole mindset, mental side of it. I remember in Free Solo, it's sort of like, you know, Alex decides when he wakes up, like, am I right with myself today for this to be the day?

Like having that like internal connection with yourself so that you're, you know, you can show up as your best self. And in the movie, there's one short clip where, you know, you're on the phone with your sports psychologist, right? So talk a little bit about the mental side of it and how you train and prepare that aspect of your craft. Yeah, so I do work with a mental health coach. She helps me a lot with the performance side of things, which, you know, I think that mental side of athletics is, has been overlooked. I think now it's kind of like definitely being talked about a lot more. It's a muscle that

you have to kind of train just as much as your body. And so, you know, we do a lot of like, kind of like validation of how we're feeling or how I'm feeling and leaning into those feelings and allowing them to exist. And then kind of like, I guess the shift comes in terms of like how we relate to those feelings, how you relate to how you're feeling that day and kind of how you can make small shifts. And a lot of it, a lot of it for Golden Gate came down to like really trusting myself, trusting my process and my path and the way that I was going to do it. Um, because it did feel like I was needing to do things a little bit differently than people who came, you know, who did it before me. And so I did need mentorship and I needed guidance and I needed help. But at the end of the day, I also, it was very mental. And it, it took a lot of belief in myself and trust in myself and a lot of like my own understanding what my own needs were up there and how I wanted to do it. Were there certain techniques or practices that, uh, were helpful? Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, the one that comes to mind that I'm really proud of is there's one pitch called The Monster Off With, and it's not actually, like, graded that hard, but what it is is it's a, it's just a 200-foot crack that's, like, six inches or so wide. And that type of climbing is really difficult because you can't just, like, jam your hands in there and climb. They won't, they're too big. So you're essentially jamming half of your body into this crack and ascending. It's what we called like wide climbing or off with climbing and you really don't see that much of that type of climbing anywhere else but on big walls in places like Yosemite and so I wasn't very good at it I'd never really done it it's it's a very specific skill um and it was kind of like a running joke

since 2015 that I was like particularly bad at that style of climbing and I just the first time I did it I wore a giant hole in my elbow and my shoulder and it was just like it kind of like like a mess. It completely depleted me too and it's right in the middle of the wall so you really can't be tired after that pitch. But what was happening to me is all these like male climbers were telling me like you have to like kind of cam your foot in the crack so you kind of span the crack with your foot and you have like your heel in the back part and your toe on the outside and you're kind of like shuffling your foot up like this. But I have a size six woman's foot. And so So my foot, like, just wouldn't span it, basically.

I was just flailing around, which is why it was, like, all on my upper body. And I was just getting so exhausted. And so ultimately, what I decided was to do was make my foot bigger. So what I did was I put my climbing shoe on. And then there's, like, kind of a hard section of climbing to, like, get into the crack. So I climbed that section with my climbing shoes, like my climbing shoes. And then I got into the crack. I wedged my body in, Alex tied his climbing shoes to the rope, and I pulled them across,

and I put his climbing shoes on over my climbing shoes, and it made my foot the same size as his. So you could wedge it in there, and it would support your weight, and you could, like, inch your weight up. And I could climb up, and it was like night and day, the difference. So it was kind of cool, and then also what makes me more proud is a lot of women who have, and some men who have smaller feet who have climbed that route now, use that technique. We're brought to you today by Bon Charged. Now, it's fair to say that I have subjected my skin to a lifetime of harsh treatment, thousands of hours and overly chlorinated indoor pools, extensive sun exposure,

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to move toward a more optimistic, regenerative future. You were off the charts competitive when you were a kid. I mean, the movie does a pretty good job of telling that part of your story. I mean, where does that, like, fire come from? Is that just the family that you were raised in? I mean, you were just getting after it like a maniac. Yeah, I think I was born that way a little bit. grew up an only child, but I had these two cousins who were around the same age as me, who were

boys, and just ever since I can remember, it was just like constant battling at whatever we were doing to be better than the other one. Across like every sport or every daily activity, like competing for, you know, for chores and stuff like that and just trying to get the best of them. Yeah, like, who could, like, I remember once when I was a kid, we were, like, daring each other to, like, jump off the second floor balcony onto the couch in the house, you know? And it was like, it was like, who could do it first? And so it was just always this kind of, like, competitive, like, who could go further, who could do more, who could take the most risk. Like, it was, it was just constant.

And you were doing lots of different things. So what was it about climbing that you, that, like, you locked in on and that made you decide, like, oh, this is, this is the thing that I'm going to focus on? I remember the first time I climbed and it was at the Boulder Reservoir outside of Boulder, Colorado. And I was with my cousins and we spent a lot of time on that lake, water skiing in the summer. And there was this artificial wall that they'd set up for a festival. and they were letting the kids climb it. And I remember my cousins really wanted to try it. And I actually vividly remember, we just had like our swimsuits and I was super embarrassed to like climb in my swimsuit for some reason.

And so I was really resistant to it. But because they did it, I was like, okay, well, now I have to do it. And I just remember the feeling of climbing. And it was like I was, as I got higher and higher, I felt more and more afraid. but I kept pushing, kept pushing, and then I got to the top. And I just, I remember this mix of fear and apprehension, but I had somehow managed to push through that. And it was just this really powerful feeling for me. And as soon as I came down, I looked at my dad and I was like, how do we, like, how do I do this again?

Where can we go? Like, I want to do this. so the added element of risk and fear and danger like kind of elevated the stakes like is that is that like because it's obviously like it's a very different kind of sport right in that like there's so much danger and peril involved it takes a very specific person to be like okay this is my deal yeah i mean i don't think if i don't think as like a 10 year old girl i don't think i felt like i was in any danger i i just felt the sensation of being able to overcome certain things and push through it, yeah, because the style of climbing

that I got into is actually incredibly safe. It's indoor climbing, competition climbing. It's very focused on that. I was also a gymnast at a young age, and so it really translated well having that body awareness and upper body strength and flexibility. And I think I also knew that I was good at it. I knew that I had talent. So that was very helpful. And then, yeah, the added, like, feeling of fear, but being able to work with that fear and overcome it was really powerful for me. It appears like you, you ascended the ranks pretty quickly. Once you focused on it, like, you know, it's just competition after competition and you start, you know, standing on top of podiums all over the place. And there's World Cups. There's like a whole like circuit and

world to this kind of competition, right? The climbing competition side of the sport. Yeah. Now it's very established and it's an Olympic sport back then it was still pretty you know pretty well established there was national level competitions world cup competitions there was a youth circuit that I joined pretty quickly and that was that was my thing for probably the first decade of my climbing so that goal at that time was how far can I go with this can I take it all the way to the Olympic level I mean this was before it was yeah it wasn't in the Olympics yet but that was obviously my dream. I wanted to be a world champion and win World Cups. My coach was this woman Robin Erbisfield Robitu who was a four-time World Cup champion and she's actually the mother of Brooke

Robitoo who just won a silver medal in the Olympics for climbing and is one of the best rock climbers in the world now. So yeah, that was like my dream was to be like that. And what happened? basically I continued to do competitions throughout my teenage years into my early 20s I got really very uh I put a lot of pressure on myself I started to kind of spiral into like a little bit of darkness I would say towards climbing and climbing became a little bit of a punishment for me um and I really had wrapped my identity in it and into the success of it and having that like perfectionist attitude mixed with the the pressure of wanting to win all the time wanting to succeed I developed a pretty you know a pretty substantial like poor

relationship with food and nutrition I would say it was an eating disorder I was I was very very thin and I was really I was really under fueling and as a result I was very successful for several years. I started winning competitions. I was the best competition climber in the country for a while. But it just, you know, as we as we all know, it just was a very unsustainable way to live. Yeah. And eventually I burned out. Yeah, there's a couple things going on. There's the self-identifying with your performance. Like you're a good person or a bad person, depending upon how well you climb. Exactly. And then the control issue. Like if I can just get myself lean enough so that I can, you know, scurry up that, that, you know, that incline as quickly as possible, then I can achieve these goals and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, setting that standard of perfection, you know, obviously is a form of, of self-punishment.

Yep. That's exactly what it was. Yeah. How did you finally kind of have a reckoning with that? I would say that it, it's probably still ongoing in, in some ways. I don't think I've ever, like, fully, like, I wouldn't say that I am fully, like, 100% healthy all the time with my attitude, but obviously I've matured. And I think what I realized was if I was going to continue to be a climber, if I wanted to continue climbing, I needed to change some things about the approach. And that took several years.

I mean, it was a long, it was a lot of back and forth. It was a lot of, like, taking a break and going back to climbing. And then, you know, the thing that actually happened was I joined the North Face global athlete team and was able to kind of experience climbing through these other athletes on the team who definitely practiced different avenues of it, but they also had like a different attitude towards climbing. It took a different role in their lives. And that was really eye-opening for me. well there's one thing to be an indoor climate what do you call it like when you're doing the indoor walls and like there's speed climb there's different disciplines within that but everything's being scored and there's a clock and like you know it's all heightened and in this contained environment versus you know you're in nature and it's like a different relationship so the evolution like the change is not only your relationship with the sport but also with yourself right how do you find a sustainable way to do this thing

that you love that is like nourishing rather than self-punishing. Yeah. And I think that took a period of time, you know, as an athlete in your early 20s, like it was a lot of, it was a lot of struggle to get to that point. I have to imagine that there's a lot of disordered eating in the climbing world. There's a lot of disordered eating. With men, too, I would imagine, probably more quietly even. Yep.

I think it's more quietly done. And, you know, it is a strength-to-weight ratio sport. The less mass you have, the easier it is to pull yourself up the wall. And there's been a lot of attempts in recent years to kind of address that. One thing in particular is the way that the like competition routes are set now. They're set that in a way that kind of rewards strength and power. And in order to be powerful and have that type of strength. need to have a bit more muscle.

Yeah. So that's been kind of an attempt at acknowledging it. But I think it will always be an issue in some ways. There's that body aesthetic, too, like being super wiry. Yeah. And, you know, I'm much older than you, but I remember in my 20s, like, I knew a bunch of climbers. And, like, a lot of them, like, started smoking cigarettes so they could lose weight.

Like, that's a whole thing in that world, too, right? Yeah, cigarettes and just kind of trying to get cut weight as, quickly as possible. Like, yeah, it's definitely a thing. So you, you go to college and you graduate college and that's when the North Face relationship begins. It begins right when I graduated college. I was 20 when I graduated. Yeah. And at what point are you invited to do this Everest expedition? It was shortly after that? A few years after that. I, yeah, I joined the team as like a sport climber. So it's still outdoor climbing, but really trying to just climb the hardest roots and a competition climber. And I gradually started just practicing other styles of

climbing. I started ice climbing a little bit. And I... That's the gnarliest. Yeah. It's not my favorite. That just seems like the most dangerous version of it, version of climbing. I mean, I think it can be like beautiful and fun in a lot of ways. And I think it's a very good skill. For me, I'm like, I'm glad I know how to do it, but it's not something I pursue regularly. Also, it's like, why would you go ice climbing in the winter when you can go skiing? There's a couple clips in the movie of you ice climbing. But my frame of reference for that is the alpinist documentary because you're like, whoa, you know, that is so intense. And the alpinist is like, obviously alpinism is like an entirely other avenue of climbing that's like the high, the more you try to excel in in that realm, the definitely the more danger you're taking on for sure.

So you're expanding. I mean, you know, Adrian always talks. about how you're like the most, you know, diversified, like, well-rounded climber in the world. But so you're expanding, like, your skill set and your capacity and all these different types of terrain. I was definitely expanding my skill set. And what happened was Conrad Anchor actually invited me to go to the Kumbu Climbing School, which is the nonprofit that was founded in memory of Alex Lowe.

And it's basically an instruction program for high altitude workers for Sherpa to learn the necessary skills to work on mountains like Mount Everest. And Alex Lowe was Conrad's climbing partner who perished on Chichetamma. Right, right, right. And then he married Alex's widow. Jenny. Yeah. Yes.

Conrad's the best. Yeah, Conrad is wonderful. He's the godfather to everybody in the climbing community. He really is. He's just an amazing human being. Yeah, he is wonderful. And he definitely kind of helped expose me. to a different world of climbing through his mentorship.

I mean, he invited me to go to the KCC. And basically our role in the KCC was to help instruct, like, Sherpa to learn how to belay. He wanted us to develop a climbing area closer to their town of Forte. So bolting a little crag near their town. So I went in 2011 with Matt Siegel, who was a really close friend of mine, also a rock climber on the team and Cedar Wright. And we went to Forte and spent three weeks there and bolted roots and just like existed in the Himalaya. And I just thought it was the most amazing experience of

my entire life. And so the invitation from Conrad to go on this Everest expedition came out of that. Yeah, basically I think it came out of that. So you put in a little work because in the movie it makes it sound like, oh, you'd never done anything and like suddenly you're on Everest. No, no. I was I was ice climbing and I was, yeah, it was winter, you know, going on some winter camping trips. And I was just like, I just really was craving this different experience entirely. I really wanted to go on an expedition. And that's where the invitation came from, essentially. It was through that, he saw that fascination in me.

What was the difference between what you imagined Everest would be and the actual experience of it? You know, it's hard to remember. I think I went in like a deer in headlights. Like, I just had no idea what it was going to be about. But I think that's exactly what I wanted. I wanted something that was entirely new, a place where I was going to learn a lot, and just wanted to be somewhere different. And I didn't want to have to think about performance and climbing hard and training.

I just wanted to go and exist in the mountains. Well, there's certainly no perfection, you know, in that environment or kind of context, right? Like, nature, you know, writ as large as possible, like is going to have its say. And so whatever you have in your mind about how you're going to do this perfectly is an impossibility anyway. So it kind of dispenses with all of that. Totally. Yep, exactly. It's expedition is like this total skill in itself. And people who are good at it are people who are really capable of dealing with that uncertainty and that imperfection and when things go wrong and when you don't feel your best. And I learned that really quickly. I got really sick right at the

beginning of the trip. I spent two weeks just like laying in a tent with an upper respiratory infection. And it was brutal. Like it was, it was awful. It was probably the sickest I've ever been. What was the most unexpected challenge of it? The length of the trip was it was the kind of trip where you feel like you're going to be there forever and every day is the same. And it's just almost feels like nothing happens. And it was like I couldn't even remember what it felt like to be home. And so I think that the stagnation of that expedition was really challenging mentally because, yeah, there's not there's not a lot going on on a two and a half month trip that you're not doing a whole lot most days. And so you're definitely just left with your thoughts in a lot of

ways hanging out in a tent in a yellow tent base camp yeah what is your feeling about the commercialization of Everest you know it's it's a it's it's a bit of a sticky wicket for you because your husband he basically goes there every year and takes people up right and so there's a lot of ink spilled about how crowded it is and like how it's you know become this thing uh you know there's a lot of like lament about it, but you've done it, and your husband is, you know, this incredibly skilled, you know, guide for so many people. So how do you, like, what is your take on all of that? Yeah. So my take on Mount Everest, it's, I mean, it's a little bit parroting what I hear from Adrian because I'm just so in it constantly. Like, I thought I was going to go to Mount Everest

and have completed that goal and then never have to think about it again. But every year. No, it's every year. He's packing his stuff and it's like, if there's one big takeaway from the movie or like all climbing movies for that matter, it's that climber spend most of their time like, you know, folding their ropes and packing their gear, the amount of gear and like knowing where everything is. And it's just like, that is insane. It is an insane amount of logistics. But yeah, I think I have a lot of gratitude for my experience on Mount Everest. It changed my life.

It truly changed my life. and I think it does that for a lot of people and therefore I do think that it is a valuable experience and obviously my husband owns a guide company that guides on Mon Everest, I am biased I think people have really powerful incredible experiences on that mountain

I think mountain guiding is an amazing way for people to like experience suffering learn about themselves I think there's immense value in that obviously there's issues with Mount Everest endless issues that I hear about constantly. And I don't need to go into it because I'm not a mountain guide. I'm not the expert. But obviously there's issues and there's improvements. For Adrian, it's totally his passion. He's chosen this as his cause. He wants to make it a better place. He wants to make it better for everyone. And I think that that's amazing. And I do have a lot of, I do have a lot

of gratitude towards that place. I will say it's a very love-hate relationship for me because like the Everest show when it's when you're prepared when Adrian's preparing for an expedition on Everest that is like all anybody wants to talk about it's all anybody wants to do and for me that that gets tired of like okay here we go again I have actually nicknamed you're going to do this again next year I've nicknamed Mount Everest Steve because it's just like this presence in my life that we always joke about Steve it's just always there everyone's always wanting to talk about it and sometimes you just want Steve to shut up

and every year he packs up and lead it's like he's gone for four months right yeah no he's better now because he does the hypoxic training oh that's right yeah the altitude so it's accelerated so it's around 35 days it's not so bad but the lead up is

it's a lot of prep but the risk never you know goes down on that so every year it's like okay you know we're entering into this bargain where you know there's a chance that you know, you might not come back. I mean, this is the world of climbing, though, you know, every one of these expeditions and being married and having a child, you know, I want to talk about that as well. Like the stakes are higher, obviously. The stakes are higher. Yep. And I think that we've

definitely, both of us have kind of like toned it back significantly since we've had a child. There's a lot less that we're willing to do. There's a lot of experiences that just don't have the same value that they used to. And so I would just, say we're definitely kind of on the same page in terms of the level of risk that we that we take when it comes to our professions now. If you look at L-CAP and compare and contrast it with Everest, what is the delta on the skill sets? Like, what do you need to excel on L-CAP and what's different about like having a successful, you know, summit of Everest in terms of like just like general fitness or approach or technique or mindset. Yeah, I mean, I think like it depends on what kind of goal you're

talking about. You're talking about free climbing El Cap in a day versus climbing Mount Everest with oxygen. I mean, there's a million permutation. Like there's a lot of different permutation. So pick one. I guess I'm just like from a layperson's perspective, like how do you differentiate these two things? because they're both climbing, but they're very different things. Everest is very much, like, how much can you suffer for a long period of time? Like, how painful can it get and you continue to keep going? Like, it is very much that. And also, like, sleep deprivation and, like, low oxygen environments.

Unable to eat properly. Like, really, truly, we're not supposed to exist in this environment. how much can you endure, essentially? You know, and then climbing on L-Cap, free climbing, we'll use that, for example. It just, it requires a lot of technical skill and experience. Like, you can't just, a lot of people can train for Everest and be really physically fit through other sports, cycling or running or whatever that may be, train specifically for Everest for maybe a year or something like that, and then go and successfully climb it

with oxygen. You're not going up L-Cap. But you're not going to free climb L-Cap coming from like a different background. Like you have to be a rock climber. So that's a little bit different, I would say. You know, if you're talking about climbing Everest without oxygen as Adrian has done and something I have not attempted, I think that that requires a level of experience in the mountains that not a lot of people have. So it's probably a little bit more easily compared. And the depth of suffering, I think, is incredibly intense. I will say that I think that there's like a genetic component to people excelling at high altitude without oxygen. Like, I think some people are very just like Oh, 100%. Yeah. Some people are just are able to manage that better than others. Adrian, for example,

it's like crazy how good he can be. Are there, does he do like physiological tests? Like is it relate to like V-O-2 max or, you know, I don't think it's related to. variability or any of those kinds of things. I really don't. And he will tell you that he like, he gets so stressed before expeditions and he thinks he's going to like get crushed by his client. Everyone's going to be better than him. And I'm just like, dude, you're going to be, you're totally sandbagging everyone. You're going to be fine. Like you, you of all people could literally sit on a couch for six months and go climb Everest and be fine. It's crazy that he feels that way, though, after having, you know, with so much experience. But you're no stranger to this. I mean,

you've talked about imposter syndrome. Totally. Absolutely. I think everyone, to some extent, feels that way. I feel that way right now about my movie, and I totally get it. Really? What is your fear? My fear is that, like, core, like, really core climbers aren't going to think it's, like, cool enough or not good enough or, like, I'm not really that good of a rock climber, and therefore, like, why am I the one who's, you know, blasted it on an IMAX screen? Well, because you're the only one who did this thing, and you had to do it for time. Like, it's a very human, relatable story on one level, but it's also a story that's very inside baseball. Like, there's a specific way of doing these things. And within the world of climbing, like any subculture, there's all this etiquette and certain ways that you're supposed to do it, you know, in order to be considered legit and all of that, you know, that plays into it.

I know, like, in running, there's a, like, an online forum called Let's Run. And in triathlon, there's one called Slow Twitch. And that's where, you know, all the haters go and, like, you know, bag on people. Exactly. I'm sure there's something similar in climbing, right? Where everyone talks shit about it. It's like a tall poppy thing, right? As soon as you achieve something great, like everyone wants to tell you why you're not so great

or why it wasn't what people think it is. Exactly. And I think in order to protect your stuff, you kind of tell yourself those things ahead of time so that you're like prepared for when the haters come and I guess that's what I do a little bit but also I try to like I try to like not go into those places well it's a tricky equation like you're trying to thread the needle

with this movie because you want it to appeal to a mass wide audience that isn't that familiar with climbing and tell a very human story but it also you also want to make sure that the climbing community you know is satisfied and that you know that the sport is being managed deftly, you know, and so they feel like they're represented in that story accurately. Exactly. Yeah.

And that's hard to, that's hard to do. It is hard to do. And I do, you know, when I'm thinking like rationally and, yeah, I think it's done well. I do think that it's done very well. It's good. Yeah, thank you. It's a good climbing film. Let me disabuse you of your imposter syndrome.

Like I said, like I said. Like, I'm a layperson who knows some climbers but knows nothing about climbing, and I was, I was enthralled by the whole experience of watching it. Awesome. Yeah. But I think what I appreciated about it most was just the, the vulnerability that you demonstrated. And you really get, like, how much you cared about this, how hard it was, what you were, like, risking to, you know, to achieve this goal and the difficulty of it. Like, I think that we're a little bit warped because of free solo. And it's like, well, if you're not like, you know, doing it like that, then like,

who cares, you know? Yeah. But in watching your thing, it's like, oh, like, well, wait a minute. Alex did this thing. And like, you're just trying to do this thing with ropes in a day. Like, how hard can that be? Like, not understanding, like, the context and, and, and the difficulty of it. And also not appreciating, like, I think there's this sense also, like, oh, there's this rock face.

and yeah there's a couple different ways to get up there but like you guys all know like every crag and minutia of this entire ascent and there's a name for like every move that you have to make in every specific place and you're repelling down from the summit just to practice those specific moves on that specific you know little piece of rock so that when you get there on the day you're going to be able to master it like there's a level of like focus and intentionality and granularity to the whole thing that I don't know that I fully understood either.

Yes, that on a granular level, you have to get really detailed with it. And that's really hard to do on a 3,200 foot piece of rock. Yeah, yeah. It's also a COVID movie. Yeah. You know, it's like, here's what we did.

Here's what we did during COVID, you know? Like, I don't know what you were doing, like watching Netflix, but like, here's what we did. You know, you're like, okay, now, I talk about imposter, so it's like, oh, now I feel bad about how I wasted all my time. No, I mean, I was just so grateful that I had the project while COVID was happening. Like, it was, I was just like right in the thick of it when COVID was happening. So it was just this very nice, like, oh, well, this is what I'm going to focus on.

Yeah. You know? There's also, it has the device that every, you know, kind of thriller movie has, which is a ticking clock. So the backdrop to this is like, you do want to have a family and you do want to have a kid, but you've got unfinished business and like this is something you feel very strongly you want to achieve before you enter into a new phase of life and if you're not going to achieve it like what does that mean what happens like you delay starting your family and hang on to this goal or do you give it up yeah and i think it's a a really intense struggle that a lot of women go through and so i think

that's why it's also like very relatable for a lot of women is that when you reach a certain age you start to ask those questions and you start to hear things and it just becomes so anxiety inducing and for me that was like just this constant it was just yeah it was like there was a ticking clock above my head so enter stage left Hillary Nelson like you talked about Conrad anchor being a mentor but you know she's she's the real you know kind of mentor throughout this whole story who who is kind of your confidant throughout the entire process as a mother and obviously as this like incredible icon. So share a little bit about your relationship with her. Yeah, I met Hillary on Everest. So she was also invited on that expedition. And I didn't know her at the time. I didn't

really know much about her because I was just a rock climber. And it was, it was interesting because at the beginning, she kind of, she just didn't really want to have, to take responsibility for me. She didn't want to have to, like, mentor me. She was there to, like, do her own thing and excel in her world. And, like, she didn't, she didn't want to babysit some little girl who'd never been to altitude before. She's like, I don't want to deal with this person. I'm here for me. Totally.

And she owns it. And she's just like, I'm here to do my thing. And I'm here to climb Everest and Lutzei. And I, like, this is what I'm here to do. I'm not here to babysit. um so she was she was harsh a little bit at first uh but i think we connected in a lot of ways because i think i in some ways i think i surprised her on that trip with my resilience and my kind of like ability to suffer and i think without hillary i might not have continued on that

path of of of diversifying my climbing of of being of being on big expeditions because she was the one who after that trip just kept inviting me on other trips, other expeditions, and kind of ushered me into this world of a little bit of alpinism, a little bit of ski mountaineering, adventure expedition type of world. And that, those were some of the most, like, formative years of my life, I think, in terms of how I developed as an athlete and a woman. And she was that big sister figure for me, that person who I kind of looked to, to the beginning of my career, when I was a 20-year-old competition climber, I was like, oh, I'm going to do competitions, become world champion, rock climb really hard, then I'm going to probably have kids and then it'll be over because that's just the path

that that's just how it is. And she defied that path and she showed what was possible for me as a woman. What about her made her so iconic and amazing? I mean, she was kind of like a Wonder Woman. You know, she looked the part for one thing. And then also, she was someone who just did not give up ever. Like if she wanted to do something, that's what she was going to do. And she was going to work every angle in order to make it happen. And she was going to push and push and push until she got it done. And if that meant going back to Pakistan or India to go ski an unskied peak, it didn't matter. She was going to go back and she was going to do it.

And she was going to do it all while having a family and balancing being a mom and a professional athlete. And she just did it not always gracefully, of course, but she did it. And that's what made her so special. Yeah. Share for people who don't know. What happened with her? Yeah, so Hillary was skiing, or she was on an expedition with her partner, Jim Morrison, also a North Face athlete, also like incredibly prolific ski mountaineer. And they were climbing Monteslu, which is the eighth tallest peak in the world in Nepal.

And they had summited the mountain and they were skiing off the summit. And she, from my understanding, she triggered like a tiny little avalanche, but it was like wouldn't have been anything except that it was over massive exposure. And she essentially got pushed off the side of the mountain and died. I mean, that was, you know, that was like an earthquake in the climbing community, obviously. But it's, it's such a strange, interesting and surreal thing because everybody in your community, understands that, you know, this is always kind of a risk. This is, you're putting your life on the line every time you do this. And yet when it happens and, you know, when it happens to somebody like her, it's still, you know, shocking. Yeah. It's, it's, I think about that a lot

because it's like the, the closer you are to the event happening, the more like afraid and sad and tragic it seems and and then you kind of like go back to base level of like continuing to live your life and then it happens again and it just keeps happening and it's almost like yeah it's almost like as humans we should we should be able to grasp it more but I still find myself being unable to grasp it when when things like that happen and the Hillary one was particularly hard for me because I was actually very pregnant at the time when it happened and so it just hit me in this way that was, it still sticks with me, I think. It's one of the, one of the only ones in my life where it's still like a little jarring every time I think about it. And yeah, it's been,

it's been really, it's kind of changed a lot about what I, what I think about as a mom and the risks I take. In what way? I mean, I don't know if it's because of Hillary or if it's just because of, like, going through having a child, but I'm, like, very, uh, I'm much more risk averse than I was before in a lot of ways. Like, there's a lot of times. And I think it's a, I think it does hinder me. There's a lot of times where I think about the worst case scenario and what could happen. And it prevents me from doing things. Um, but at the same time, there is a, a decent level of comfort with that place that I'm in now. Like, it's almost like, I just don't need to do those things. Yeah, you've proved yourself.

There's nothing for you to prove. Like, if you would not achieve that goal on El Cap, though, maybe you might be taking some different risks right now. But because you did, you can be like, it's cool. Yeah, it's really interesting. Like, I thought that I wouldn't be that way, though. Like, I don't think, I think Hillary continued to push and continued to go on big expeditions and do really rad things. Granted, her discipline was quite a bit

different than mine. Ski mountaineering is a different style of mountain experience that does carry a lot of inherent risk. And I think in rock

climbing, I can kind of pivot to ways that feel quite a bit safer, but still challenging and still rewarding. And I think that I'm really lucky for that.

But for me, I just am like, it's like, I have no, it's like maybe I could do that. I could go to these places. I could, it's possible for me to do these things, but I just don't have, I don't see the value in them

as much. I'm not going to get out of them as much. Yeah, the risk analysis, like the cost benefit of it. It's like, okay, if I do it and I, okay, I will feel this way or whatever, but like, what am I wagering for that experience? But I'm, I think I'm lucky because I have these other ways of expressing myself in climbing that are still super challenging and hard for me, but it just feels not as perilous. It's not as perilous. It feels way more within my comfort zone, and I'm just really grateful for that.

I only met Hillary once, you know, I spent the better part of a day with her because she came and did the show when I was still doing it in my house. And then she had a speaking engagement, and I drove her and dropped her off, like, you know, for that. And so I got to, you know, it's not like she was my buddy or I knew,

you know, like I only had that one experience with her. I mean, but it was, it was a very meaningful experience to me and and I used to do the podcast in in this room in my house as I said and now that room is is our TV room so last night I'm watching the documentary and I seeing her on screen and I was like oh she was sitting right here and she's here and it's like and I got like really emotional about it there's something just so special about her yeah I think that's true I think that's very true I think she was a special one and I think she changed I think she changed the world in a lot of ways, our world for women. I think she was one of the first

women who kind of continued her career after having children. And I, yeah, I think that that was important. I think she made it easier for a lot of us. Is it your, you know, hope that the film and kind of what you accomplished and what you achieved, you know, updates that narrative around, you know, women on the wall? Yeah, I mean, I hope that this story is the first of many female stories in climbing that are highlighted because climbing is this really unique sport where in terms of like the upper upper levels, men and women are are quite a bit closer in terms of what they're capable of because climbing does reward flexibility and body awareness and a lot of these things

that women tend to be a little bit better at. And so the level is, the gap is closing. And then you also see like these achievements like Lynn Hill's achievement that are just so incredibly groundbreaking that are done by women. And so I just think it's, I think they're valuable stories to be told because it's, it really is a unique sport and that we are much, much closer to men in terms of what we're capable of. It's such an incredible vehicle for self-actualization. also, you know, just climbing itself, like the kind of battle between ego and humility and, and, you know, really having to position yourself and put, you know, put yourself in these uncomfortable situations, deeply uncomfortable, you know, situations where, you know, not only is

the fear, you know, profound, but, you know, so is the, so are the risks, the peril, right? And can you be your best self or can you use this as a, as a means of self-rength? discovery, really. Yeah, totally. I mean, it's, that's been my medium for self-discovery, I think, since I was a young girl. And it's totally evolved as I've grown and matured and as my climbing and my relationship to it has grown and matured. And yeah, for me, I find a lot of value in my exploration of climbing in that process, in particular, the process of like dealing with failure. Like rock climbers, we, we basically just fail 99% of the time. And I think a lot of life is kind of recognizing or reckoning with failure and understanding it and really welcoming it in a lot of ways.

I mean, I'm basically in an eternal process of failure because I just have projects all over the world that I'm trying to complete. And I won't complete all of them. And so it's just like you're constantly failing and learning from it. And I think that understanding that is really beautiful in some ways. And it teaches us a lot about ourselves. And then I also think climbing, and this is highlighted in the film, I think, really well and is kind of like not as highlighted in films like Free Solo is there's a lot of like partnership and there's a lot of team aspects to climbing that I think has been overseen until now.

There are these deep connections that you build with those people who you're up there with, who you go through really intense experiences with. And for me, that's been super important in my life. there's a team behind every great accomplishment. But like free solo is called free solo. Yeah, exactly. It's like, yeah. And there's a massive team behind that.

I mean, the movie really is, like, it has a lot to say about like mentorship and, and teamwork. Like, it's very clear, like, all of the things that you're doing are a consequence of all the support that you surround yourself with. So how do you, like, for someone who's watching this or listening to it, like, how do you, um, you know, seek out mentors. How do you surround yourself with that kind of support? I've been pretty lucky. I think kind of growing up in the world that I got to grow up in, growing up in Boulder and having a lot of like rock climbing mentors and coaches and getting to know Lynn Hill. But I think one of the things that I've done later in life that's been or later in my climbing career that's been really pivotal for me is like I do try to surround myself with

people who are quite a bit better than me and more experienced than. I am in a lot of things. My career has been kind of defined by becoming good at a certain style of climbing, deciding I want to switch styles and try something different, becoming a beginner again, kind of sucking at it, finding people who are better than me who are willing to kind of take me under their wing and teach me and then building myself back up, which has been over and over again pretty humbling experience. And yeah, just so it is hard. I think finding the right partners is one of the challenges of things, the things that we do on expeditions, on big walls. It is hard to find the right combination of person. But I think, yeah, putting yourself

out there being really open to those experiences, also reciprocating being a good, you know, being a good partner to them. Like I, you know, I supported Alex on his, one of his traits. training routes to go free, free solo, free rider, stuff like that, trying to like, yeah, really leaning into being a good partner. What are these expeditions continue to teach you? Like, what are the lessons that you're learning now that you weren't learning earlier? Like, how has it evolved from that perspective? I mean, I think I keep relearning the same things over and over again.

We as humans need to be, you know, told these things many times, right? You kind of have to get it beat into you and then you forget. Yeah, you have to crack your head on the side of the... Yeah, like I have, although I do think that I, I've really learned a lot about approaching a goal with a good, healthy mindset. You know, the difference between the way that I approach things when I was 18 years old versus how I approach it now is, is massive. It's just much healthier. It's much more like, there's a lot more like empathy for myself and for my own process. And there's a lot more, the goal is different.

It's not about like completing, it is about completing the goal, but it's also about like embracing that process and enjoying the process along the way and kind of, I guess, understanding that it's, it's never going to be perfect and that I'm never going to have a perfectly sunny attitude the entire time. Negativity is going to come up. Self-doubt is going to come up, but it's how I relate to those things that matters, not necessarily the fact that they, that they never happen because I'm human and of course they're going to happen. fear, failure, all of those things are going to constantly be coming up. But it's how I relate to them and move through them that matters in the end. What is your perspective on vulnerability? Because like in the movie, you are like you're demonstrating so much vulnerability. And, you know, there's that kind of traditional idea or trope like, oh, don't show, you know, don't show anyone what you're, you know, feeling. You've got to like, you know, focus and like on and just keep it

together, right? And you're kind of like showing people that there's a different way. Yeah. I mean, I just think that hiding that stuff and kind of trying to conceal it is so, takes so much energy away from what you're actually trying to do. And I've never been a person who's been able to kind of like bottle things up, I suppose. So I've always just expressed to myself in that way. I've always been pretty sensitive. I've always been pretty emotional. And I've been able to like, yeah, I've just let out my vulnerabilities when it comes up. And I think I used to be a bit ashamed of it. I used to see it as a bit of a weakness. And now I see that I'm not alone. There's a lot of people like me. And there's a lot of people who maybe feel ashamed like I used to.

And I think that it is a strength to be able to show it and show it in a space like on a movie and show people that it's actually a pretty healthy thing to care about something and then to feel a certain way about it and move through it. You remember that old, you're probably too young, but there was this movie, what was it called? It was a movie about baseball with Tom Hanks and I think Madonna was in it and he was coaching like a women's baseball team. And there's one scene where he's like, there's no crying in baseball. I do remember. It's like, here you are crying on El Capitan and you still like did this thing. You know what I mean? It's like maybe there's be crying in baseball. I mean, there should be crying in baseball. There should be crying

everyday life. To not associate it with weakness. It's just like a cathartic moment of like processing, you know, the, you know, the weight of an experience while you're in the midst of it, I guess. Exactly. Like, and I think it makes, I think it can make in general, like men feel really uncomfortable to see, you know, a woman crying. And it used to make Adrian feel very uncomfortable. And he used to try to fix it. And he used to try to solve everything. And now he just like, like, steps back. And he's like, okay, I'm just going to like let you go through your process. But he used to be like, I can't believe you were just like crying while you were climbing. Like, while you were actually like executing movements. I'm, I'm envisioning Alex just watching

it like confused. Yes. He was. I mean, I's like, what is going? I don't understand what's happening. He has his lovely wife, Sonny, who I think has helped him learn a lot about that type of emotion. And at one point, I remember being on the wall and cry, like, I was in tears crying. And he looked at me and he was like, I think you need a hug right now. And he just like gave me a hug. And I was like, that was the right move. That's a demonstration of emotional intelligence. Like, very good. Awesome. Yeah. How does the whole like business of this work? I mean, Adrian has the, you know, the Alpin Glow Expedition Company. And so I can kind of understand how that operates.

But as a professional climber, like obviously you're a North Face athlete, there's brands and sponsorships involved. But are you comfortable talking about like, how do you like make all of these pieces fit so that you can, you know, continue to do this and be a mom and like pay the bills and everything? Yeah. I mean, yeah, it's just like you said. I am my own brand essentially and I'm managing my own brand with sponsors and producing content, being on podcasts, speaking engagements. There's like a lot of different avenues that I make my income from and like, yeah, one of them is sponsors, but the sponsors are contingent on like the content I produce and the trips I go on for them. I go on North Face Expeditions still where we do photo shoots and other marketing things like. that. And then, you know, personally, like we have our own YouTube channel where we push things out from the social media side, all of that. It's definitely a hustle. Yeah. So not only do you have to be great, like a master of your craft, you also have to be a master storyteller and always be thinking about like how are we presenting, you know, our life in a certain way. Like that's a whole, that's like a whole second career.

Yeah, I think it is a whole second career, and it's something that you don't think about, you know, as a 16-year-old, like, oh, I want to be a professional rock climber. I want to be a professional whatever type of athlete. But then, you know, if you're actually successful at it, you really do have to acquire those skills. Yeah, you have to be a production company and a publicity firm and like all of these things that aren't have nothing to do with being a professional athlete. And hopefully you get to a certain level where you have a lot people helping you with that. Yeah. And so there's projects like this documentary where there's, you know, there's other people involved in producers and directors and all kinds of stuff. By the way, I always forget like when I'm watching these climbing movies that, oh, there's a guy like right next to you with a camera who's also there. Yes. Who also needed to be able to get up there and is holding camera equipment. It's insane. It's insane. The scenes where it starts hailing and it's raining and it's wet up there, I'm like, oh my God. Like, how are you doing this? Yeah, the hail scene. That was, actually, all of that footage is mainly just my iPhone. Really? Yeah. Because we were bailing at that point and all the like professional photographers had their cameras like hidden away. How did that look on an IMAX screen? It was all right. It's crazy. You can like shoot it on iPhone. It's on an IMAX screen.

Yeah. No, it was all right. That was a crazy storm. It was like a very memorable like kind of funny event that happened. Like we just totally did not expect the weather to turn. like that. So you basically have to have all of these threads that you're pulling, yeah, big documentaries, but also, you know, capturing everything about all of these adventures that you're going on and getting them edited and presented and all of, it's like, that's a lot, you know, that's a lot of mind share when the focus is like, how do I get up this mountain or whatever and do it safely? Yeah, it's a lot of juggling. And especially now with a kid, it's just this other layer added on and I feel like we do have a lot of help like we actually I always say it like we employ a lot of our friends like I have a lot of friends who are photographers and a lot of

friends who are editors and I like you spend a lot of time with these people you go on these trips with these people and so it's like really nice when you have these people that you like and you like to hang out with who are with you but it's a lot of dynamics it's a lot of juggling and yeah it's it's fun How do you make decisions about what the next goal is, what the next expedition is? Like, what are you working towards right now? Yeah, it's basically about what's, for me, right now, it's about what's possible time-wise, like how much energy I can put into a certain project.

For instance, we decided not to go to Yosemite this fall because it's quite a bit easier to go sport climbing, which is just like, you know, single pitch. You're coming down to the ground every time. it's a less time commitment. It's easier to train for in a lot of ways because you can just train in the gym a lot and then go outside and have these little projects. And I've found a lot of like fulfillment in that right now. I'm climbing really well in that style and doing these like quicker like three to four week

trips with the whole family, finding a project, kind of working on the project and hopefully like seeing it through and finishing it by the end of the trip. And that's been really amazing and successful this year for me. So that's what we're doing right now. Also because of the film stuff, it's just kind of hard when you have to travel for the film as well. It's a little easier to have projects that are a little bit more digestible. What's the big thing lingering out there that's calling you? Like, is there a big goal out there one day or some unconquered whatever?

There's a lot of goals out there. I think for me, I'd love to go back to El Cap, and I'd love to free climb it again, a different route, probably a harder route, probably over multiple days. All roads always end up back on that wall, right? Yeah, I know. It's really hard to not be drawn to it. Of all the places in the world. Yeah. And there's other places I want to go to and climb big walls.

Like, for example, Pakistan, I'd love to go to Pakistan and climb on Nameless Tower. but I'm still kind of like it's a lot of risk maybe a level of risk I'm not super comfortable with just with rockfall and things like that and then just being away for that long period of time

I just don't really I don't know I'm not I don't want to miss things when your kid is little I mean I guess maybe forever they just like change so quickly and I'm not I don't want to leave for two months I don't want to miss that period of his life

So I'd rather take him with me. And it's a lot easier to have your kid in Yosemite than Pakistan. Yeah, I think so. And it's fun now because in Yosemite, like, we actually last fall, it was really fun. I was there with the Honnold's and I was there with the Caldwells and I was there with some other friends. Are you guys just all pulling up in your respective vans? All our vans built and designed by the same person who like had. has this niche of designing, like, family climber vans.

You're, like, looking and checking out of everybody's vans and comparing, like, oh, you did that and we have this. We all roll up into, like, Church Bowl, which is the zone in Yosemite and all our kids pile out. And, like, all the younger, like, crusher dirtbag climbers are just like, what is going on? It's so funny. Van life. It's awesome. Yeah. We do van life with the kiddo.

And, yeah, it's great because everybody kind of had kids at the same time. so we're all kind of commiserating together. What is the investment in all of these young children all becoming climbers or not? I don't know. I mean, I think you probably know. Like, I just want him to like what he does. I want him to find something. I want him to have a passion of some sort.

I would love for it to be climbing. I'd be lying if I said that I didn't. But it just has to be something. That's my goal. is to have a child who's passionate about time will tell yeah time will tell um yeah so right now we're exposing him to a lot he goes he understands climbing um also skiing yeah he's growing up in taho so right i mean you know there's gonna there's a there's a little bit of outdoors to explore there yeah do you think about uh your role as a role model for young female climbers or outdoor athletes

Yeah, I think I'm really coming into that role. Probably right now in a lot of ways. Yeah, this is the moment. Yeah, this is the moment. And I really do hope to play a small part in that evolution of female climbing and be like a really healthy, positive voice. You know, I feel like I've had, I've been really fortunate to have a lot of great mentors and I just hope to continue that. I've been working with a nonprofit called Z girls, which is actually about like building confidence in young, young girls, like ages eight or ages 11 to 14. And it's a little, it's an online platform. It's kind of like the mental health coaching you wish you had when you were that age, because it's a really like vulnerable hard time. Learning it early. Learning it early, I think is really important. But yeah, I definitely feel like I'm coming into that place. The North Face team does a really good job of kind of fostering that in a lot of ways. I feel like I'm now coming into that role for the other younger athletes on the team. I feel like if I think of you and then I pair you

with like Kate Courtney and Chelsea Sedaro and these other like, you know, women athletes who are like, you know, sending it in different ways, there's something really powerful about all of you in your various different disciplines being the, you. you know, examples of, you know, true empowerment. I don't know. I don't know if there's something there. I mean, these are all, these are all like people under the, you know, the RXR umbrella. And maybe there's, you know, there's a good reason for that. But I feel like it's a, it's a interesting moment and time right now where you and others like you are more fully expressed than they ever have been. And because of social media,

and all of that, like there is a direct communication to the next generation of young athletes that are being influenced by you. And I'm glad that you're like, oh, I'm really thinking a lot about this because I think shouldering that mantle and taking it seriously can be just so impactful in the most positive way. Yeah. Thank you. I mean, I do think it's important. I think it is thanks to social media and kind of the place that we're at in our lives, like the kind of life transitions that we're going through, I think, yeah, there's a more fuller vision of who we are being portrayed. And I think that in a lot of ways, women didn't have that before. You know, women excelled at athletics when they were in their 20s and then

they had kids and then they were parents and that's it. So if you were to like look into that like camera right now and like address the young girl athlete, you know, what is the, what is the message that you want to convey like what is it that you want um them to understand about themselves and their potential and how they think about you know their own future as athletes but also just as human beings yeah i mean i think i would i would try to convey to not be afraid of fear to not be afraid to try hard and care about things and be vulnerable and be open and kind of just go for it in your own way. Don't be afraid to do things in your own way, to fail in your own way. It's really not all about success. In a lot of ways, that is what it's about in some

respects, but it's also the majority of life is about how we deal with failure and how we deal with discomfort and struggle. And I think, you know, as a woman, we do have different ways that we approach things and different things, we go through different things. And I think that's just now a story that's being told. And it's an important one. And so I think we should never be ashamed to be a part of that. I read, and I'm paraphrasing your words, but a few things that you've said that I think are really profound and impactful. Fear is human, but a strength when given purpose. So seek out fear, discomfort, and failure because success is built upon, you know,

hundreds of thousands of failures. Find what makes them, find what makes you uncomfortable, scares you, or causes you to fail, and then use these experiences for learning and growth. Yeah. That, like, says it all to me. It does. Is there anything that remains to be said about that? No, I mean, I just love the idea of leaning into fear and discomfort and experience.

expressing ourselves through those and kind of like finding meaning through them. I had a woman on here, psychologist called Susan David, and her mantra is discomfort is the price of admission to a meaningful life. Yeah, that's well said. I think that you pay the price of discomfort more than most, and you're like the, you're our Sherpa who can report back what you discover from the outer edges of the most uncomfortable places on earth. Well, I appreciate that.

Yeah. The movie is fantastic. It's going into theater September 9. 3rd. September 3rd. It'll have a couple weeks there. After that, it's going to be available for streaming on Jolt. Yes.

So I think it's jolt. That film is where you'll be able to see it. So everybody check it out. And I'm excited to see what you do next. Thank you so much. Yeah. Thanks for. Thanks for coming here today. It was inspiring. Awesome. Yeah, it's great to get to know. I had a great

time. Appreciate it. Cheers. You feel okay? I feel awesome. Did we do it? We did it. All right. Anything remains to be said? No, I think we nailed it. We did. We did it. You're good at this. All right. Well, we'll come back after you go do some crazy thing and we'll talk some more. Perfect. All right. Cheers. That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guests, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com, where you can find the entire podcast archive, My Books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change in the Plant Power Way. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show

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