The Rich Roll Podcast - How Food Can Fix Your Mood With Heather Lounsbury

Episode Date: January 12, 2015

If we want to repair our broken health care system and move culture towards true, long-term sustainable wellness, then medicine must embrace a a new approach to healing. An approach that's so new, it's old. Less reductive, more holistic. Less diagnose & prescribe and more all-encompassing, functional and preventive. Let’s kick start that conversation. This week's guest is nutritionist, acupuncturist, herbalist, Reiki Master and expert Chinese Medicine practitioner Heather Lounsbury, author of Fix Your Mood with Food*. Although she gave up meat nearly 30 years ago for ethical reasons, Heather was a junk food vegetarian with zero interest health until hers hit the skids. Moody and constantly fatigued, she began experimenting with nutrition and was astonished to discover the extent to which she could modulate her physical and emotional vitality relative to the types of foods she would eat. This realization lead Heather to pursue graduate degrees in nutrition and Chinese medicine. Today Heather is a well respected clinical practitioner with over a decade of experience treating patients with a wide variety of mental, emotional and physical issues. Her basic message? Live natural. Live well. Food has a far greater impact than we recognize on not only our physical health but on our mental and emotional health as well. Not only can proper diet (amplified by additional holistic healing measures) alleviate stress and elevate your mood naturally, it can prevent and often reverse a wide variety of chronic infirmities, including heart disease, elevated cholesterol, digestive issues, diabetes (diabesity!) and more. Over the course of our conversation we discuss: How pain and digestive disorders can be holistically managed and alleviated; How holistic healing practices can be used to treat mental health & addiction issues; The importance of progress over perfection; The role and function of certain herbs on physiological functions; Primer and origin of food allergies; Thoughts on GMO’s, Omega- 3 EFA's & Supplementation; and Addressing the social barriers that impede healthy eating. Lots of good stuff to chew on this week. I hope you enjoy the conversation. Peace + Plants, Rich

You know, we've all done it. We're human. We're going to make mistakes a million times a day. And, you know, whatever it is that you consider a bad habit or a bad way to respond to things, like, you know, it's all right. It's a learning process. That was Heather Lounsbury, and this is Episode 125 I'm Rich Roll, ultra-endurance athlete, best-selling author, wellness evangelist, lifestyle entrepreneur, husband, and father of four. Welcome to my show, where each week I sit down with the best and the brightest, the most forward-thinking, paradigm-busting minds in health, wellness, fitness, sports, nutrition, the arts, and entrepreneurship to help you discover, uncover, unlock, and unleash

your best, most authentic self. Thank you for listening to the show. Thanks for subscribing to the show on iTunes. Thank you for spreading the the show. Thanks for subscribing to the show on iTunes. Thank you for spreading the word on all your various social media networks. Thank you for subscribing to my newsletter. Thank you for clicking through the Amazon banner ad at richroll.com for all your Amazon purchases. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life.

And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care. Especially because, unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem. It's a real problem, a problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to guide, support and empower you to find the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do.

And they have treatment options for you. Life and recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. All right, so I want to open this week's podcast with a quote. It's a quote by the inventor, Thomas Edison, and it goes like this. The doctor of the future will give no medicine, but will interest her or his patients in the care of the human frame, in a proper diet, and in the cause and prevention of the disease. That's right, Mr. Edison, you prophetic inventor genius guy, you. Indeed, the future really needs to move. And I'm seeing that it increasingly is moving towards this holistic approach to healing. Medicine that is functional, medicine that is all-encompassing,

that is less reductive, less diagnose and prescribe, and more preventive. And I really think that as we enter into 2015, it's time that we all start thinking about how our personal approach to our own healing and health in general can be less reactive, less reductive, less diagnose-prescribe, less pharmaceutical- based, and instead more forward thinking, more holistic, more functional, more preventive. So I thought it would be cool and fun to kickstart that conversation with today's guest, Heather Lounsbury. She's cool and she is my first diet and nutrition oriented guest of 2015. So who is she? Well, Heather is an expert and someone with higher degrees in Chinese medicine. She is a plant-based nutritionist. She's an acupuncturist,

an herbalist, a Reiki master, and she's the author of a recently published book called Fix Your Mood with Food. And she deals with digestive disorders, pain management, mental health, addiction issues. And we have a really cool, really comprehensive conversation that touches on all of Heather's aforementioned specialties as well as things like the priority of progress over perfection and the role and function of certain herbs on physiological functions, which is really cool and fascinating. We talk about food allergies. on physiological functions, which is really cool and fascinating. We talk about food allergies, we talk about GMOs, omega-3s, supplementation, social barriers to healthy eating, acupuncture and its relationship to addiction, and also Ayurvedic medicine. Basically tons of good stuff. So let's go talk to her.

I'm really intrigued by everything you do. I love your message. And what's so interesting about your work and your advocacy is that it's diversified. Like you're doing lots of different things. You're an expert in Chinese medicine. You're a nutritionist. You're an acupuncturist. All of these things, of course, orbit around this idea

of wellness, but the intersection of those makes you powerful. You can serve your patients, your clients in many different ways. Absolutely. And that's one of the reasons I chose this form of medicine is I feel like I can help more people this way by getting to the root cause of their issues and not just putting a Band-Aid. And there's so much when it comes to Chinese medicine. There's so many options on how to treat people since it's over 5,000 years old. Right. And I want to get into what Chinese medicine is exactly because I think there's such a

mystique surrounding it. But one of the things that I always talk about and say is that wellness, true wellness, you know, isn't just what's on your plate. It encompasses everything. It's a mind-body-spirit equation. It's trying to balance all of these things and have them all work harmoniously. If you're just focused on nutrition without looking at the other aspects of what it means to be mentally well, physically well, then you're really only addressing one aspect of that equation. Absolutely. And I do get comments, especially from vegans who are a whole food plant-based, like, oh, well, I eat the right foods.

Everything is just automatically going to fall into place. And I really wish it was that easy. But the world we live in today, the amount of pressure we're under, the amount of toxins we're exposed to, the amount we have to work, all those things, food, unfortunately, isn't always enough. Yeah. If you're super stressed out at your job and you have some depression and you're not exercising, you can eat salad all day as long as you want, but how healthy are you really? Yeah, exactly. Right? So this is great.

So explain to me exactly, like how would you define Chinese medicine? What is it exactly? Like it just conjures up images of guys with Fu Manchus and brewing herbs in some basement somewhere. Well, that does happen. I know, it is Fu Manchus and brewing herbs in some basement somewhere. Well, that does happen. I know. It is part of it.

That idea exists for a reason. Yes. Well, the medicine, as I said before, is over 5,000 years old. And it incorporates so many aspects of health. Acupuncture is a big part of it. Herbs are a big part of it. But also your spiritual growth is part of health. Acupuncture is a big part of it. Herbs are a big part of it, but also your spiritual growth is part of it. Like all the acupuncture points have a spiritual name to them because originally, you know, 5,000 years ago, men in caves were the ones that kind of figured out

the map to all of this. So, they were on the spiritual path on how to remove suffering from the world and in our own personal lives. So it's got a very deep part of it, but you can also go to an acupuncturist who only treats pain and pops a few needles in, takes them out a half an hour later, and that can be effective as well. But I personally like to do it from more of an emotional, spiritual aspect. And the herbs, yes, you can cook herbs in a basement and they're really stinky. But you can do them. I do everything in powdered form. So they still don't taste so great, but you just mix them in with a little bit of warm water and chug it down. And Chinese medicine basically can treat anything you can think of. So whether it's headaches, allergies, blood pressure issues,

cancer, Alzheimer's, and stress, PMS, and anything in between, it can help with. So it's really this intersection of acupuncture, which is kind of its own thing. It's a subset of Chinese medicine, right? Yes. And then being an herbalist. Yes.

That's the other aspect of it. And then, so is there another kind of prong there? Well, there's so many because the medicine's so old. There's some Tai Chi is a big part of it. And Qigong is a big part of it. For your listeners who don't know what that is, that's a form of sort of physical exercise. It has a spiritual component to it, similar to Tai Chi, but it's also energy work. Gua Sha, which is...

Never heard of that. Yes. Gua Sha... That sounds like some kind of Hungarian goulash or something. Gua Sha, traditionally you would use a deer antler, and I don't. I use a porcelain spoon, of course, to rub certain points to either release pain or emotional issues because each point has an emotional release to it. And cupping. A lot of people have heard of cupping now because celebs have been shown with cupping bruises and it doesn't hurt at all. And that can be done for treating pain, releasing fevers, and also releasing repressed emotions.

So how did these guys 5,000 years ago figure out these points on the body that could be sort of activated to alleviate pain symptoms or help balance out your biology? How did this all come about? I mean, it's fascinating because it's so mysterious. Like, you put a pin in your, you know, under your skin in one place and, you know, I don't know, your shoulder and then suddenly your Achilles heel feels better. Like, it just seems, it seems like bonkers, right? How did they even begin to

figure this stuff out? Well, the main theory is that it was divinely inspired. As I said before, it was kind of the norm for people to meditate in caves for decades. And so, that's one theory that it's divinely inspired. Like they just were given this information. It was transmuted from the galaxy. Yes. Right? From the higher power. Yes. Like they just were given this information. It was transmuted from the galaxy, right?

From the higher power. Yes. And also a lot of the points are set up based on the stars. So you could use astronomy to correlate the different points. Oh, that's amazing. Yes. How did that work? Honestly, I don't have an answer because I wasn't, I mean, I think I might have been around during that time, but.

In a past life. In a past life, yes. Well, I would imagine you probably were. Yes, I know I was definitely a doctor of Chinese medicine in past life, so. That's a fact. That is 100% fact. Okay. So, we're going to verge into conspiracy theories about how actually the human uh human population began

with uh some kind of alien invasion right because this is such advanced technology how could they figure this out with the stars and well it's well it is pretty yes well it could be alien aliens gave us the information for sure um one of the one of the things that i find so amazing is they did know before we even know what nerves were, what certain points did. Because sometimes there is a direct correlation. I'd like to point out, and it's also in my book, on each side of the spine, there's points for specific organs and specific emotions. And we now know exactly where that point is. The nerve comes out of the spine to go into the liver, the lungs, the kidneys, the spleen.

And there's no way they could have known that thousands of years ago. So there's no real solid concrete answer because back then everything was passed down orally. There was no written text. And the first text was about 2,500 years ago. So we don't have any kind of history. Yeah, that's amazing that they were able to figure, I mean, they must have just been sticking pins in people like crazy. What does this do?

I know. I mean, it makes sense when you say, oh, yeah, if you're hitting this nerve that's coming right off the spine, and we know, you know, we know that that leads to, you know, this organ or what have you, that obviously makes more sense. But what is it about sticking the needle in and sort of poking this nerve that has the desired impact? Like, how does that work? Well, we know now with studies that have been done using MRIs in certain points

that there's a point on the foot by the big toe that helps with vision. And when you needle that point, it shows up in MRIs, the part of the brain lights up that's in control of our eyes. So why that happens, we still don't have an answer. So even like the best scientists don't know. Don't know yet. Well, there's so many studies being done in China that hasn't been translated yet. So they might have more answers than being done in China that hasn't been translated yet. So, they might have more answers than we have. But as you mentioned the shoulder, there's a point on the calf that helps shoulder pain. Why? We still don't have an answer to it, but I've done it on hundreds of people and everyone feels a difference.

Right. And it's this idea of what is the term, like meridians or something like that? Yeah. So So explain that. Well, there's 12 main channels that our body's energy flows throughout the body. And it's called chi. Many of your listeners have probably heard that term. And chi is our body's energy and it flows in specific patterns and also goes into each of the organs to energize them and help them do whatever their purpose is so um each point is on a meridian well most of them because you can do points that are off meridians and that's we'll try to get into that but say the point most people know is the point um it's sort of the fatty part of your hand by the thumb and people like oh i heard that helps with pain and yes that that does help with pain but also helps with stress also helps with constipation and what it does is moves the chi that's stuck at that point and spreads out and

goes through each of the channels to get things moving again interesting yeah chi being energy but you know the chi doesn't show up on the MRI, right? This is sort of a theoretical concept that is proven out just through practicing and sort of evaluating the results. Well, there are tests being done now that shows there are specific patterns to our body's energy flows

and they haven't called it qi, but we are making improvements on proving it because that's definitely something that with Chinese medicine, oh, there's no proof that it works. But obviously, I've seen it in my own clinic day after day, but there's lots of studies out there that prove that it does work. But I feel like it wouldn't have stuck around for this long if it wasn't helping people. Right. It's definitely stood the test of time. Yeah. if it wasn't helping people. Right, it's definitely stood the test of time. Yeah.

So the concept essentially is that your body has, you have these systems of qi and there's blockages and the idea behind optimal health is to make sure that all the qi is flowing properly and is in balance with all of the meridians, right? Is that accurate? Yes, you actually said it perfectly. You said it better than I could.

But everybody's walking around, nobody's in perfectians, right? Is that accurate? Yes, you actually said it perfectly. You said it better than I could. But everybody's walking around. Nobody's in perfect balance, right? Everybody's got blockages or there's an imbalance of this system versus that system. Yeah, even newborns, because I have my youngest patient was six days old and the mother brought her child in because it was having a lot of digestive issues. So even, you know, as soon as you come out of the womb, you can have imbalances because things you're going to have genetically passed on to you and any stressors the mother was going through during the pregnancy. And also depending on what food she was eating, what toxins she was exposed to. So even fresh out of the womb, there's going to be some imbalances, but we can,

So even fresh out of the womb, there's going to be some imbalances. But we can, through our lifestyle changes, through diet, exercise, and whatever kind of form of meditation or de-stressing that you do, acupuncture can all get things realigned. Interesting. So when a patient comes into your clinic, generally they're going to tell you what's off or wrong or what they want addressed. But let's say they didn't and they just laid down and you had to evaluate the body. Could you ascertain where those imbalances are or are you relying on them to? Oh, I don't rely on them at all, actually. So how, yeah, right. The unreliable narrator, as you would say in screenwriting.

Yes. So there's several ways. Just watching a person walk, I can sense if there's any imbalances or any pain. Their face, because you can read a lot on the face and what's going on with someone with their organs. And I take the pulse. And in Chinese medicine, there's nine pulses on each wrist. Nine pulses? So nine pulses. Yes, it's very, very different. I can spend up to five minutes feeling a person's pulses. And each organ has its own separate pulse. And then there's different depths and qualities and strengths.

And I mean, I could spend your whole podcast explaining it because it's taken me, I've been licensed now for 13 years. And I've been seeing patients for 15. Like I still am learning because it's such an exact science to it. But I can tell if someone has digestive issues, if they're about to get sick, if they have problems with their prostate, if they're anemic. And with pregnancy, this is a fun one. I can usually tell what's the sex of the baby is in the first trimester.

Yes. Really? Yeah. Do you keep track of that? Yes. So what's your record? I'm is in the first trimester. Yes. Really? Yeah. Do you keep track of that? Yes. So what's your record? I'm 85%, I think, accurate, which isn't bad. So how do you determine that?

Like, what is the signal? Well, there's one pulse that represents the kidneys and the uterus on women. And depending on if the left side is stronger or the right side is stronger, then that tells me if it's a boy or a girl. Because? It's just, there's yin on the left side and yang on the right side. So if it's-

It's not yang, it's yang. Yang, it's yang. So left side would be female, right side would be male, if that one's stronger. And it's interesting. One time I had a patient come to me and I said, oh, you're definitely having a girl. Two weeks later, she came back and she goes, do you still think I'm having a girl? She had had an ultrasound.

I said, no, it actually feels like a boy now. She goes, I'm having a boy. Wow. That's amazing. Yes. That's incredible. All right. So I'm going to make you read my pulse when we're done here.

But just looking at my face, what's wrong? What's going on? Well, take off your glasses. Can you do that for me? This is a good podcast. Yes. I would say some adrenal fatigue. That's definitely true.

Yeah. Yeah. And maybe some issues with either anxiety or sleep. Yes. Okay. Those are the two that really stand out for me. And a stressful issues with either anxiety or sleep? Yes. Okay. Those are the two that really stand out for me. I'm a stressful couple of weeks. Yes. I'm a little overextended.

Yes. So good diagnosis. Thank you. And I also look at the tongue. You can see what each organ is doing from the tongue. So that's a great way to diagnose. We're supposed to have a nice pink tongue with a thin white coat, no cracks, no jagged edges, no spots. And I've only seen, I think, out of the probably 4,000 tongues I've seen, I've maybe seen two that were perfect looking. So I don't know what that says about the state of things. They're just better people, I guess, right? So when someone comes into your clinic, I mean, what is the typical issue?

Like what comes up? What do you see that people are suffering from? Well, I'm seeing everyone is stressed out, which is very sad. It's so rare that someone comes in, oh, yeah, everything's easy. My job's great. My personal life's great. All these things are just working together. So much everyone is really stressed out.

So stress is a big one that I work on. A lot of people are having digestive issues. Part of that is food allergies. Part of that is eating dairy. And part of that is the overexposure to antibiotics and genetically modified foods. So it's become, and just in the 15 years I've been seeing patients, more and more people are coming in with digestive complaints. Interesting.

Yeah, you know, when I was younger, I don't remember anybody talking about things like ulcerative colitis and issues like this. And it seems like there's a lot of people that are suffering from this. I think from what I understand, a lot of people, this is a result of taking antibiotics throughout their life and their gut is just shot. The microbiome in their gut is just upside down and it's difficult for it.

Once it passes a certain point of no return. Yeah, pretty much. You can take as many probiotics as you want, but it becomes a very difficult chronic condition for people. Well, I've definitely, I've cured people. I hate to say that word, but I've cured people with ulcerative colitis through herbs, acupuncture and dietary changes. So it can be done. And it's

not just taking antibiotics, it's antibiotics and animal foods because 80% of antibiotic use in the U.S. is animal agriculture. So anytime someone eats, has a glass of milk or has a burger that's not organic, they're ingesting antibiotics. So anyone who isn't eating plant-based is obviously getting exposed at least once a day, if not several times a day to antibiotics. So that's a big part of the problem. Yeah, that's amazing. And that kind of brings up the other aspect of what you do, which is being a nutritionist, right? A plant-based nutritionist. So where did you, I mean, where did all this begin for you? Well, it's kind of a fun story. When I was in ninth grade, I decided to give up meat.

And I even asked my mom's permission. I was such a good little kid. I said, Mom, can I try being vegetarian for the summer? And she goes, well, as long as you cook your food, sure. And I totally did it wrong. This was also in the 80s, so there was not as much support as we have today, and there was no internet. So I basically just cut out meat, but I was still having Doritos. I was still having Lucky Charms for breakfast and just a horrible, horrible diet. And that made me anemic.

And we got the diagnosis that I was anemic from my doctor, and he said, well, just start eating meat again. And I knew that was never going to be an said, well, just start eating meat again. And I knew that was never going to be an option for me. So I started studying nutrition. The reason was just compassion for the animals. It was purely ethical, yes, at the time. I started doing more research on it and found out the environmental impact, the health impact,, workers and how they're treated and factory farms. So it just wasn't an option for me.

So anyway, I started studying nutrition for my own health. I loved it so much that I started studying herbs. I got books on what supplements did what. And I worked at a food co-op throughout college. Oh, wow. And also worked at a vegetarian restaurant as a chef in Germany for a while and loved it so much. So I'm like, well, I should be doing this for a living. So, and eventually it took me quite a while to give up dairy, but finally did. You did.

And my leather shoes. That's the tough one. I mean, my personal experience was when I stopped eating meat, it wasn't that rough of a transition, but kicking the dairy was a lot more difficult. Yes, it's so highly addictive. And, you know, we have the association to eating certain meals and like, you know, I want my ice cream as a treat. And mom used to make this for me or whatever it is. So there's also the emotional component. It's associated with love and comfort. Yes, exactly. And it's also in everything. You know, it's amazing. Yes.

I went to, I have some like dental problems that I'm sorting out right now. And I have like root degeneration. Like I have a lot of exposed roots on my teeth. Oh. And they're very sensitive to cold and things like that. So the dentist gave me this stuff to put on and like, oh, this will desensitize, you know, you rub this stuff in, it fills the pores and it will help you. And it's like all made out of milk casein, you know, the whole thing. I was like, oh, I can't use it. Like

there's milk in this like dental treatment, you know, like it's in, and it just made me realize like, you know, really you have to be vigilant when you start cutting dairy out because you realize so many of the foods you're eating, you don't even know. Yeah. It's, it's hidden. Cause I remember when I first gave up meat and I was definitely curious about veganism. Cause I, I joined PETA cause PETA is from Maryland and that's where I'm from. Oh, we're in Maryland. I'm from College Park. I'm from Bethesda.

Oh my God. Yeah. Oh, we might've crossed paths at some point. We might have. Well, my time in College Park was spent in bars and getting pulled over for DUIs. I was not working at the co-op in College Park when I was in high school. Well, people were drinking at the co-op too, believe me.

And where was I going with this? I don't know. Dairy? Oh, dairy. Yeah. So I started, I was curious about switching to 100% plant-based. So I looked into the cheeses that were available. And there was, I think, only one cheese at the time that was non-dairy, but it still had casein in it.

So like, what's the point if you're trying to not eat dairy but it still has casein in it so it took I don't remember when the first actual vegan cheese came out but it didn't exist that I could find back then right I mean it was slim pickings yes you know I remember my mom would take me to the natural market in Bethesda and it was just like, it was terrible. You know, it was just like big vats filled with like, you know, terrible tasting granola. And, you know, it was everything that you would imagine the stereotype to be. But that was, you know, 1982 or something like that. To imagine, you know, what's available now at Whole Foods, it's, you know, it's kind of extraordinary.

Yeah. Well, I tell people now that are younger or just new to eating plant-based, like there was one soy milk, one brand of soy milk, one flavor of soy milk, and that was it. There was no almond milk.

There was no hemp milk. There was no rice milk. There was it. And it used to just come in a powder in a can that you mixed with water and it was awful. I'm sure it tasted terrible. Well, the flip side of that though is that it's never been easier to be a junk food vegan.

And I think there's a psychological thing that takes place where, oh, you know, I'm not eating meat anymore. So automatically I'm healthy, but you know, you can just be pigging out on all of these sort of, you know, meat and dairy free alternatives and convince yourself, you know, it's probably, some of them are healthier than others,

but really it's easy to trick yourself into thinking you're eating a better diet when in truth, you very well may not be. Absolutely. And eating things as close to the ground as possible is my motto. And obviously I'm not 100% perfect with that all the time. I definitely have my junk occasionally, but as close to the ground as possible is how you want to eat your food.

Right. So you studied Chinese medicine, but then you also separately studied nutrition. Yeah. Well, I took some nutrition courses as part of my master's degree in Chinese medicine. So that's where I got the – because I also do Chinese nutrition, which hopefully we can talk about a little bit today. And then I did, I think probably over 3000 hours of continuing education in nutrition. I haven't actually gotten an official license for it, but I've just had that be my continuing education over the last 15 years. So that's where it all comes from. Interesting. Yeah, I find that with the exception of, you know,

a certain select few nutritionists, people like Andy Bilotti or Juliana Hever, most of the nutritionists that I come across are very resistant to a plant-based diet. And my theory is that it's a result of whatever curriculum they learned when they were schooled in this. Oh, yeah. It's just like medical doctors. They think medicine and surgery are it, the only answer.

And sometimes that is the case, of course. But that's all they know. So it makes sense. Right. they know. So it makes sense. Right. And then, you know, I've started to like kind of pull the covers and learn more about how the whole world of, you know, professional nutrition works. And I love following people like Andy online and people like Michelle Simon, because they're constantly shining a light on the extent to which big food companies are integrated into nutrition education. You know, I think even yesterday I retweeted something that Andy had tweeted about, it

was a picture of some nutrition conference and Coca-Cola had a huge stand, you know, we're here to educate you and look at all our amazing options and, you know, how these professional organizations are actually funded by companies like McDonald's. educate you and look at all our amazing options and, and you know, how these, these professional organizations are actually funded by companies like McDonald's. It's, it's, it's incredible. Yeah. No wonder the misinformation's out there. And I can tell you, I, I have some patients who were on play for the Dodgers and the Lakers and so forth and what they're given to eat. And these, these men are worth millions upon millions of dollars. And you'd think that they would want to feed their machine the best way possible, but they're given basically meat,

white rice, and some overcooked vegetable, if they're lucky, and Gatorade and soda and water, and that's it. And that's usually their options if they're going to eat whatever's given to them when they're training. Right, right, right. Yeah. I mean, I talked about that on the podcast with Brendan Brazier because he's worked with a bunch of professional sports organizations kind of coming in and looking at what the athletes are doing and how it can be improved. And, you know, in some cases they're very open to it. You know, they understand, especially athletes that are kind of in the twilight of their career who are looking to extend their professional, you know, career a few years longer, they're open to it. But there's a lot of resistance too, because it's like, what, you're telling me to do something different than

everyone else is telling me and that how powerful the marketing messages are from the Gatorades of the world saying, this is what you need to do to refuel or what have you and to say, no, that's actually junk is flying in the face of, you know, every billboard, every commercial, every sort of, you know, message that you see throughout your day multiple times. That's just playing on your subconscious constantly since you were a young child. Yeah. They've done such an amazing job. I joke that Mad Men, the men of Mad Men would be so proud of what we've made of marketing today. It's everywhere. You know, high schools are getting, you know, they're getting all these messages about what to eat too. And, you know, in elementary schools even, and it's horrible,

like they're starting these consumers off. So they'll be addicted for life. Yeah, of course. And I've said this before on the podcast, but, you know, you go into high schools and you see Got Milk posters hanging on the walls of the gym and you're like, what? Why is this organization allowed to advertise in a public school? It's very early. And it's that intersection of government and giant commerce where it goes all the way to the top, to the K Street lobbyists and what's going on in the legislation on Capitol Hill that allows these things to happen, including the food pyramid or the food plate. Oh, yeah. All of these things. And I remember when I was in high school, I would get teased because I would have to bring my own food. And one teacher came over to me. I think he was Seventh Day Adventist.

He goes, you're a vegetarian, aren't you? And I wasn't bringing. I did discover hummus, I think, in my junior year. And I've been hooked on it ever since. When you were in high school? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it must have been really radical to be eating that way, you know, at that time. Absolutely. And I even just, you know, the suburbs of Washington DC would think that it would have been a little more mainstream

because there's so much political activism there. But I think I was one of a couple vegetarians in my whole high school and there was 2000 of us or something. I had one friend growing up, Eric Melanie, and he was vegetarian. And I just remember just thinking like, wow, he's so extreme. And like, you know, he was the only kid that anybody knew, but he was like very firm in his conviction and felt very strongly about it. And his family supported him and they had all kinds of animals at their house and rabbits and stuff like that. And, but I just remember thinking like how odd, you know, instead of like, you know, look around today and it really has changed a lot, you know, for the better. The openness of people to, you know, sort of consider this way of eating has never been

more mainstream. So that's exciting. It's really exciting. It's got to be fun for you to see all of this, you know, you've been doing this for so long to now kind of have the world, you know, embracing it in a new and different way. It's definitely, well, it's great because people are more open to it with the patients that I treat, family members are more open and just to see, you know, the fact that Whole Foods does even exist now. And of course they have plenty of foods that aren't that great for you at Whole Foods does even exist now. And of course, they have plenty of foods that aren't that great for you at Whole Foods. But the fact that it exists and they're humongous and they're always busy.

I've never been in a Whole Foods that wasn't packed full of people. And I was, you know, it's fine that I went through that period of being the weirdo. But it's definitely nice and refreshing to be like, oh, Heather knew what she was talking about. Right. So back to how you kind of treat your patients, you have the acupuncture aspect of it. Let's talk about the herbs a little bit because this is where it gets mysterious, even more mysterious than sticking needles in your body. Well, Chinese herbs, I, of course, only use plants to treat my patients, but there are

a few animal products. Most of them are illegal that are part of the Chinese pharmacy. So if you go to an acupuncturist who wants to give you herbs, they can't give you bare bile or strange things like that. But there is the- Bare bile. Yes. There's some really weird ones, aren't there? Yes. Deer antler is another one. Cicada shells. Elk antler velvet.

I think it's shown to boost testosterone, right? Yeah, it gets the... Exactly. Yeah. That's a popular one. It's very popular, unfortunately. But you can do plant-based herbs that help just as much. There's an herb called horny goat weed. It's a direct translation.

Is it appropriately named? Yes, it is. All right. Is this a Vi it appropriately named? Yes, it is. All right. This is a Viagra alternative? Yes, it's a Viagra alternative. And how I learned about it in school is most of my teachers were Chinese. And my teacher at the time, she goes, sheep eat it and get very busy. It was her way of describing it.

So the same happens for humans. And that works on women too. So if you have a low libido, it can help women too. All right. So that's one. What are some of the other common herbs that you work with? Well, I use rhubarb roots on a lot of my patients, and that's a mini detoxifier and also helps with constipation. So that's a big one. And I use astragalus root. I'm trying to think of ones that people would actually know. And that helps the immune system. And it also has the special effect where it helps all the herbs that are in a formula go to each of the organs. So it

sends this message to them to not just go to one place to actually feed the whole body. Like an adaptogen. Yes, exactly. So those are just a few off the top of my head. Ginger. Ginger is great for immune system. It helps with upset stomachs. It helps with parasites.

So that's a good one. Turmeric. I use in formulas a lot for people who have some kind of muscle or joint pain because it's great for inflammation. Yeah, it's a very powerful antioxidant, anti-inflammatory. Yeah, turmeric does a lot of things. But traditionally in China, they used it for actually shoulder pain was its main focus. And then so I cook with turmeric if you're having any shoulder issues, people listening. But it's meant mainly in the Chinese pharmacy for treating

pain. Right. I mean, I use turmeric a lot. Like it's great for recovering from training. It's amazing. It's very, very powerful. And I just saw an article, I think it was published in NBCI. It was a study that said turmeric was more effective at treating depression than Prozac. Oh, I love that. So I don't know who did the study or anything like that. Okay, I'm going to have to look into that. Yeah, I'll send you the link to that. Okay, thank you. But it goes to your point, really, which is, I mean, essentially what's behind everything that you do

is this idea of self-regulation, right? Yes. Of achieving health, a balanced wellness, not through pharmaceuticals, but through a holistic approach. Yeah, and getting to the root cause and not just fixing the symptoms. Because if you just deal with the symptoms, the issue will come back or it will come back in other ways. So it's really important to get to why you're having the problems that you are and then it won't come back. Right. you're having the problems that you are, and then it won't come back. And then just maintaining health after that, because I always recommend patients coming to me every month or so just

to maintain health so they don't get sick again. Yeah. I mean, we don't talk enough about the fact that, you know, I don't know what the percentage is, but it's got to be extremely high of the medications most commonly prescribed to people for whatever is ailing them really don't do anything about getting at addressing the cause of what's going on. They're just alleviating symptoms. So you're basically told you have to be on this the rest of your life. And it just perpetuates the problem. And it sort of takes even talking about the problem off the table to, you know, completely. So, you know, the easiest, most illustrative example is Viagra, right?

Like if you're having difficulty getting an erection, that's because you have some, you probably have an arterial blockage or it's an early indicator. It's like a canary in the coal mine

for heart disease. So if you just take Viagra and think that you've dealt with the problem, problem solved, you're not looking at what could be a much bigger problem down the line. It's like nature's way of telling you like, hey, wake up, there's something going on here. You can't keep living the way that you're living,

this is going to get worse. You take Viagra and then you don't think about it anymore. And then you get sicker. Then you get sicker. And also when you have issues with plaque buildup, you're at high risk for a heart attack, when taking Viagra is the last thing you would want to do is if you're high risk for heart disease or have heart disease. And I've definitely seen several male patients over the years that were prescribed Viagra with no thought in mind as to the consequences of taking it. And there's also can be an emotional. So you increase your blood pressure. And your heart rate, obviously. And also there can be an emotional. So you decrease your blood pressure. And your heart rate, obviously.

And also there can be an emotional component to impotence. So if you're not dealing with whatever that is, that can haunt you in other ways as well, like lead to more depression, insomnia, and even more intense illnesses. and even more intense illnesses. Like there's, in Chinese medicine, it's believed if you suppress your frustration and anger to a certain point, you can develop Alzheimer's. Interesting. So take care of the problem. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, it's, I mean, we could sit here and list out, here are all the herbs and this is what they do. But I think it takes someone with, you know, your level of experience to really know, because it's not just one thing. You have to address everything at once and find a way to make sure that everything is in balance. Like it's that, it's sort of like what T. Colin Campbell

was talking about in his book, Hole, like this very, what's the term that I'm looking for? When you just identify one aspect of what's wrong with you and treat that in isolation without really looking at the implications on everything else. Yeah, you definitely need to treat the whole body. And that's with herbal formulas, I put anywhere from 10 to 20 herbs in a formula. So I'm not just treating the one main issue that my patient is concerned with. I can treat several things at once. So say someone comes in to me with chronic headaches and they also have issues with digestion and fatigue and maybe a history of panic attacks.

I can address all of those in one formula. Interesting. What would you do for someone suffering from migraines? That's what my wife has had for a long time, like has tried so many different things. Well, talking about herbs that she, because it's not herbs that you would be able to just buy over the counter. So there's herbs, there's one called

Chuan Shang that's really great for migraines. I use that in all my formulas with people as migraines. And then depending on when they come, how often they come, where, the quality of the pain, there's so much to headaches and migraines. So it's not just, okay, I have migraines, to headaches and migraines. So it's not just, okay, I have migraines. I'm going to give everyone the exact same thing. So I can't, sorry about knowing more about her. I'll have to send her your way.

Yeah, yeah. Well, that's a good answer, right? Because you can't know. It's not like, oh, take this and problem solved. I mean, we're in this culture where, you know, we want to just biohack like, oh, here's the miracle thing you've never heard of that's going to solve that problem and you don't have to think about it anymore.

And nature doesn't work that way. No, not at all. And I can say like the common colds, I get a lot of people saying, what should I take for a cold? Like, well, there's like over 100 versions of a cold, how it started, how long you've had it, what your symptoms are now,

the progression of symptoms. So there's so much more to it. And obviously, you could go to Whole Foods and say, what supplement should I take for a cold? And it might work for you, and it might not, but it might not be the best and ideal formula for you. Right. What about food allergies? What kind of food allergies do you see people coming in with? And how do you determine what they're allergic to?

Or even that that exists? Yes. Well, pretty much everyone's allergic to dairy and just doesn't want to look at it. And it's amazing how many patients have come to me with these symptoms and have gone to every specialist for however it's manifesting. So it doesn't have to come up as digestive. You can have skin issues. You can have depression from food allergies. I have one patient.

She's featured in my book who had panic attacks directly connected to her food allergies. But usually I'll say, especially if it's someone new to what I do and new to me, I'll say, you know what? Just for a week, don't eat gluten or dairy and see what happens. Because so many people are allergic to gluten now. If you're not allergic to it, I'm okay with people having some wheat. And just see. And most of the time they come back to me, their next treatment, say, I'm feeling better. But you can have a lot more allergies than that.

So there are great blood tests to see specifically what you're allergic to. And there's ones that focus more on vegetarian foods. So you're not spending, they'll still test for animal products, but they'll also do things like chickpeas and flax seeds and stuff like that, that a regular blood test won't do. Right, right, right. So what are, like, if somebody's listening to this and they're eating dairy, or maybe they're resistant to the idea of giving up dairy, what are some of the symptoms that manifest with somebody who is having an allergy to dairy? Headaches, mostly on the forehead,

but it can be an overall headache. But food allergies usually manifest on the forehead if you're going to get headaches from them. Any digestive issues, so it could be going to the bathroom too much or not enough, gas and bloating, fatigue after meals. Acne is another big one, but also eczema and psoriasis. Yeah, I've heard tons of people say they gave up dairy and suddenly this lifelong problem that they had with whatever kind of rash they get on their skin or acne or whatever just goes away.

And if you have chronic congestion from hay fever, that can go away because dairy promotes mucus. And what else am I thinking? And just a low immune system. So if you are prone to catching colds, and dairy might be a big part of it. And dairy also causes inflammation. So if you have joint pain, it might be from dairy. Interesting. And then with gluten, I mean, gluten's sort of,

I guess, not really, but semi-controversial. It seems like the pendulum swings, swinging, you know, all over the place these days. Like, oh, you know, gluten is the worst thing ever. And then, oh, it's a bunch of nonsense. All this gluten thing is overblown. You know, how do you find sense in all of this? Well, I think a big part of it is wheat is so genetically modified at this point that it's not really digestible. It's not meant for human consumption. So that's a huge part of why people are having such a strong response to gluten. But it's also we're exposed to it in everything. It's kind of like dairy is hidden in everything. Gluten is in everything. And even if something's really good for you, if you eat it every single day and sometimes several times a day, you can get sick from it. So even kale, kale's not something that might upset some people in here, but even kale.

You should eat things in season. I mean, we weren't like, you know, if you want to be like, quote unquote, paleo about it, like how did our ancestors eat? Yeah. like quote unquote paleo about it. Like how did our ancestors eat? Yeah. You know, they didn't, you know, they weren't like eating a certain kind of produce 365 days out of the year.

Yeah, exactly. They were eating when it was in season. It gives the body like some seasonal, you know, ability to adapt and eat different things, right? It's very important to eat seasonally as much as possible. I know people who live in colder climates, it's not as easy. But I always say, if you can't get fresh produce, if you're in a colder climate, then frozen is the next best option. Obviously, fresh is always the best. But yeah, in Southern California, we're really spoiled. We can get food.

Right, right, right. The only thing I eat that's not local on a regular basis is bananas. That's the one thing that you can't really find locally, grown bananas. Right, right. Well, the idea of frozen fruit is interesting. I mean, do you know Jeff Novick? Yes. Yeah, so Jeff's big on frozen fruit and even frozen vegetables

because this idea is that it's frozen right after it's picked, so it retains its freshness. So if you go to the farmer's market or you buy your produce at Whole Foods or whatever, it's still been, you know, how many days has it been sitting around since it was picked? Yeah, exactly. And actually, it seems like crazy, like, oh, frozen.

I'm not going to eat frozen vegetables. I'm going to get fresh. But actually, maybe it like crazy, like, oh, frozen. I'm not going to eat frozen vegetables. I'm going to get fresh. But actually, maybe it's fresher. Yeah. It seems weird. Like, I still struggle with that. Like, I would much rather eat it, you know, from the farmer's market. Yeah.

Well, again, we're lucky here. We can do that. When I've traveled, like, I was in New York recently, and I was talking about eating locally grown food. Like, well, in December, there's not really many options. options like maybe some apples and some squash but that's it so the next best option I wouldn't rely on it all the time necessarily but it's definitely better than getting something flown from across the world because it's it's lost almost all its nutrient value by then frozen organic though organic always organic yeah which Yeah, which brings up the next thing,

which is GMOs, another controversial subject for a lot of people. But I think it is most prominent in our wheat products. Yes. And I really do see, I mean, nobody was talking about gluten

and wheat sensitivity when we were kids. And now, you know, it really is a thing. And like just experimenting on myself, I feel better when I don't eat gluten, when I don't eat wheat. And like my research is done. Like what else do I really need to know about this? And this is not your grandmother's wheat. No. Maybe if you can find some kind of heirloom wheat that is really pure and grown in a different

way and see if that has an impact on you. Well, there's einkorn is the traditional wheat or more traditional wheat, but that's hard to find. And it's definitely not going to have the texture that we've become accustomed to. So it's an einkorn. I've never heard of that. How do you spell that? E-I-N-K-O-R-N.

Where would you spell that e-i-n-k-o-r-n where would you find that um you can sometimes get pastas and cereals um but actual einkorn that hasn't been processed at all i haven't been able to find it but maybe online there's a way to get it um tastes terrible yeah it's not it does not have the texture that we're used to that's not it's not gonna taste like wonder bread right no yeah um and i actually it's interesting you mentioned your scene, how you felt, how you feel when you've had wheat. When I was doing my residency, I had a patient who was French, and she would go back to France several times a year. And she said to me, like, Heather, I don't understand. When I go home, I'm having baguettes, I'm having croissants, and I'm fine.

But here I have one bite of bread and I'm miserable. And that sort of a light bulb went off in that moment. Like, wow, because the quality of food in Europe is way different and way better than what we have for the most part. So if somebody comes to you and says, you know, what's the deal with GMOs? What's the response? I say stay away from them as much as humanly possible. Unfortunately, it's hidden in a lot of things. And they've done a very good job of not being allowed to label foods genetically modified. And hopefully that will change.

Because there's now studies, besides the digestive issues and the food allergy issues that can come with genetically modified foods, there's studies showing that there's cancer, increasing cancer and tumor growth when you eat genetically modified foods. So that to me- Yeah, I think they did these experiments with mice that were growing tumors like crazy. Yeah, humongous tumors. And it's not always an option. And if you're on a budget or live in a part of the world or country that it's hard to get a lot of organic food, then just, I say, do your best. But wheat, soy, and corn seem to be the most commonly genetically modified foods. So if you can at least do those, you can buy things in bulk, you can buy things online that will be cheaper than going to Whole Foods for sure. that will be cheaper than going to Whole Foods for sure.

That brings up soy, which is another kind of, within the sort of plant-based universe of nutritionists, I found it to be kind of divisive. There's a camp of people that say, I don't know why everyone's so worried about soy. Soy is totally fine. And another camp that's saying, yeah, you should really avoid soy. And so what I've always kind of,

how I've navigated that is I do eat soy, but I make sure it's non-GMO and preferably fermented. So like tempeh and things like that. Is that, I mean, what is your take on that? Well, soy, if it's not genetically modified and you're not allergic to it is good for you, but definitely stay away from the highly processed soy products that are out there, like doing a lot of the fake meats. And as a side note, people, if the only way you're going to give up meat is by eating the mock meats, go for it,

because you will slowly transition. Because believe me, when I first started eating plant-based, the junk that I used to consume, and that just doesn't sound good anymore. But soy is safe. Non-GMO soy is totally safe. Yes, because I always use the example that Japan has the lowest breast cancer rates in the world, and they eat soy sometimes every single meal. But they eat natto.

Yes, but they also have meat. I'm not a natto. Explain what natto is to people who might not know. Well, it's a fermented. I've actually never had it. So it's the fermented. I'm afraid. Yeah.

I know Dr. Mercola is a big fan. He doesn't like the plant-based thing, but he likes natto. So yes, miso soup, tempeh, some tofu would be fine. Just don't become overly dependent because, again, if you eat too much of it, you can develop an allergy and soy is hidden in everything as well. But it does not cause cancer and it does not affect a boy's masculinity or future masculinity. Yeah, that's the thing, the phytoestrogens that everyone talks about that can, you know, lead to, you know, men developing man boobs. Yes. And screwing up women's menstrual cycles and things like that.

Not at all. That's not true? No. And I always, I jokingly use this example, but there wouldn't be over a billion Chinese people if it at all affected your testosterone levels or your masculinity because they're eating soy every single day too in China. And there was the big controversy with soy that I can't remember how many years ago that's now been around, like, oh, phytoestrogens, evil, evil,

but that was all funded by the dairy industry. So whenever something doesn't sound right, like soy is really bad for you, then find out who's actually behind the message. Yeah. Interesting. Well, that should always be the case, right? And usually when it's a study saying stay away from a certain, you know, natural food, there's probably a big food, you know, industry lobby behind that. Oh, yeah. Absolutely.

If it doesn't make sense. Well, because of the failure of Prop 37 to pass here in California, there's no obligation for food manufacturers to label foods to indicate whether they have GMO in them or not. So if you're looking at a product, whether it's soy or otherwise, the only way to really know whether it's GMO-free is whether it has the certified organic label on it. Absolutely. And hopefully they're being honest with not using genetically modified products.

Yeah. And that's a leap of faith too, because this whole idea of organic and what gets that label and what doesn't has become highly politicized and it's become a sliding scale. It's degenerated from what it used to be where big food companies, they know if they can put that label on their food, they're going to have a certain perception in the marketplace or what have you. Or if it says natural. Well, that means nothing. Yeah, 100% natural. Or when Jiffy Peanut Butter says no cholesterol on it, like, yeah, well, peanuts don't have cholesterol.

Right, right. Well, I could say gluten-free too, right? It's like it's meaningless. So yeah, and it's disappointing because there's so much obfuscation that the average consumer is left completely bewildered and confused, which is exactly what these companies want.

The more confused people are, the better, because I think that keeps the paralysis entrenched and prevents people from making better choices. But the extent to which, you know, the marketing and the labels on these food products will go to convince you that something is healthy when it's not is quite extraordinary. It is. And I don't get any magazines or subscribe to any magazines. And if I watch TV, I TiVo, so I don't see commercials. But every once in a while, I'm stuck at the nail salon. I'm like, oh my God, the ad for this food. And I laugh out loud. People are like, what the hell is going on with that woman? Because it's such a big lie.

It's amazing. Yeah. And Jeff Novick, again, he has a great presentation where he kind of, the gist of it is don't believe anything on the front side of a food product label. Only, you know, only read the nutrition facts panel on the back. And he teaches people about how to really read that and understand what it's saying. And he uses this great example of PAM you know the this the cooking spray yeah and i think i i'm gonna botch it because i don't remember exactly what he said but it's something like it says zero it says zero zero percent fat or fat free on the front but it's just oil yeah like it's a hundred percent but if you uh they're allowed to say that because if you make the

serving size so small that uh you know the nutrient content is below a certain threshold, you can say 0%. Yeah. So the serving size for PAM, if you look on the back of it on the Nutrition Facts panel, it's like, you know, it's like a microgram. Or, you know, you wouldn't, if you tapped the spray top, you know, you couldn't even tap it quick enough to get that little amount. But people are walking around going, oh, there's no fat in this, fat-free, and they're spraying their, you know, whatever. It's complete insanity. Well, it's the same thing with ingredients and pre-made and processed foods. If it's under a certain percentage, they don't even need to list the ingredient.

So that's one of the problems with getting food. even need to list the ingredient. So that's one of the problems with getting food that's, I mean, I'm guilty of it too, but getting things that are pre-made, you really don't know what you're eating. And on the flip side of that, it can contain sort of traces of certain things like calcium or what have you, just enough so that on the front, they can boast that, you know, it's good for your, whatever, it has all these minerals in it. But you look at the amount and you're like, this is negligible. This is nothing, right?

Yeah, it wouldn't actually help you in any way. And then the consequences of whatever else is in that food, it's not worth it. Like those calcium chocolate things that are out. I've never actually had one, but I've seen that you can get chocolates that are a calcium supplement. So people think, oh, I'm getting my calcium.

It's a sugar-filled, highly processed, lots of dairy calcium supplement. So it's like just eat your greens. So when a patient comes to you and you're espousing the health benefits of eating plant-based, I would imagine the common kind of concerns that come up are, where am I going to get my protein? What about calcium, especially with women? Yes. And anemia, probably, right? Are those the typical?

Those are the big ones. And protein's always first, and I'm sure you've heard it even more than I have. How many hours do we have? But I do say because patients are referred to me, I usually just go by referral basis now. I don't say I won't see you again if you don't do this. I mean, I've had probably 100 patients or more go plant-based over the years. So that to me is a great accomplishment, but all of my patients are eating more produce. That's one thing I can say that they've all at least cut back on their animal product intake. So I say, okay, I'm going to give you these suggestions. And obviously if you really feel like you need to add salmon to that, that's a personal choice. I'm not going to recommend it.

I'm giving you plenty of ideas for getting your healthy fats and your protein without having to do salmon. But, you know, people are, you know, they're attached to food emotionally, but they are still scared, even though they know I know what I'm talking about. So. Yeah, the salmon comes from this argument about omega-3s, right? You got to get your omega-3s. You got to get your omega-3s. And fish oil is super important. You got to eat your salmon.

So what is the response to that? Well, I recommend if you are really concerned, you can do a supplement of, there's algae sources for omega-3s. And there's also flax, borage, and primrose oil. I know there's probably some of your followers are against doing oils, but you can do hemp seeds, flax seeds on their own, kale, walnuts, seaweed. Because actually seaweed is where seafood gets its omega-3s from. It doesn't just automatically have it. And most seafood is high in cholesterol,

so that's something that is ignored. I can't tell you how many times patients come in with a list of food suggestions from their doctor. I'm like, well, there's a lot of cholesterol in here and your shrimp is, and there's people with heart disease issues and cancer history and diabetes.

So it's like you're recommending shrimp to someone who should be lessening their cholesterol levels. Right. So you're just getting your omega-3 lower on the food chain. Yes. Right. And you're getting it without, you know, the toxins that accumulate in, you know, the fatty tissue of the salmon and all those other things. I mean, I think Dr. Michael Greger did a great video about fish oil and even, you know, fish oils that are labeled toxin-free, and they tested them and realized that actually, even though they said toxin-free, they were like rife with toxins in them.

So why not get the omega-3 before it ends up in the fish and just get it directly? Yeah, and I remember this was 95 when I was just starting to look into going to acupuncture school and looking at what schools were out there and everything. I had a nutritionist tell me, and I wasn't eating seafood at that point, so it wasn't an issue for me. He said at the time something like 60% of fish caught off the coast of California have tumors, but they just cut the tumors off and still serve it to people. they just cut the tumors off and still serve it to people. So I can only imagine almost 20 years later, those numbers have gone up because our oceans are even more toxic. And with Fukushima, the radiation levels that are in the Pacific,

it's just better to stay away from it. Better to stay away. Yeah, exactly. And I mean, maybe even that algae is, who knows? I mean, I don't know, you know, but all I know is that, you is that I make sure I put hemp seeds and flax seeds and kale and walnuts and almonds in my morning smoothie every day. And I think I'm okay. Well, I can tell you. All these things seem to be like red herrings.

If you just eat a couple simple things, make a couple simple changes to incorporate into your day, you don't have to worry about it. No, it's really easy to do. And I can tell you, I gave up seafood in 1987. And I, last year I did a full nutrition panel to see like micronutrients, everything across the board, what my numbers were and everything was fine. But my omega-3s were well within healthy range. So for anyone who's thinking there's absolutely no way to do it,

that's not true. And I don't even go crazy with making sure I'm getting omega-3s. I'm not taking a supplement. This is just like unsweetened hemp milk, kale and walnuts, and flax seeds in my smoothies sometimes. So it's not even, because I don't actually like the taste

that omega-3s get that, because that's the sort of have that fishy taste to them. So I can't even do a lot of flax seeds because it tastes too fishy to me. So, and I'm fine. Yeah, you're fine. You look fine. Thank you. You look radiant.

Oh, thanks. What about anemia and iron? Well, iron is actually better to get from plant sources because it's easier to metabolize than meat. I can tell you most of my female patients are a little bit anemic around their cycle, no matter what their eating habits are. So if it's someone that eats red meat every day, there's going to be some anemia. And then if you're plant-based around your cycle, there's a tendency to be a little anemic. But yeah, again, women who come into me who have meat every meal can be anemic because their bodies just can't process it. So why not get it from great sources? Get it from beans. Get it from greens. You don't need to eat beef to get all the iron you need. But that was the big thing for me when I gave up meat is I just gave up meat and that was it.

Still had french fries and top ramen and all those things. Right, right, right. Yeah. The junk food. Doritos. But there is a difference in that the iron that comes from animal sources is heme. Yes. And then there's non-heme.

And then there's non-heme is the plant variety. Well, plant-based eaters tend to get plenty of vitamin C unless they're total junk food vegans. And that's key to iron absorption. So just make sure, if you're at all concerned, make sure you're getting some vitamin C and when you're eating or taking an iron supplement, if you feel like you need to take one.

And then my favorite iron supplement- The vitamin C binds to it and it helps with absorption. It helps with absorption. So if someone's at all concerned thinking like, no, I have a history of anemia, there's no way I can do this. Floravital has a really great B-complex and iron supplement that's all plant-based and easy to absorb, doesn't cause constipation like most iron supplements do so

that's always an option obviously i prefer you get it from your foods but there are people out there especially women that anemia is just sort of a chronic condition for them no matter what they're eating so you can add a little bit of that right so what is your tip your basic perspective on supplementation um well unfortunately our soils are so depleted at this point. Pretty much everyone needs to take some supplements. And if you're having any health issues, at least temporarily taking supplements, I personally do B12 either as a B complex

or sometimes I do B12 injections and a probiotic. And then if I feel run down, I might add some vitamin C. But I'm getting, you know, my diet is really balanced and I'm getting a lot of what I need. But I do talk about this in the book, too, where some nutrients, like in tomatoes, something like 60% less vitamin C than tomatoes had 50 years ago. So even if you're eating all the right things, you're not necessarily getting what you need. And also stress inhibits your body's ability to absorb nutrients. Coffee is a big one that inhibits iron absorption by up to 60%.

Yeah, the tannins in the coffee prevent iron. Yes. Right, right. Look at you. And medication. So even if you haven't taken medications in 20 years, there still can be some residual issues with your digestive tract.

So it's hard to absorb nutrients. So irregular eating habits, affects absorption, being dehydrated, like all these things in most of us in the culture we live in today. And again, if you're sick in any way or feeling run down, supplementation, at least temporarily, is key. Until you can get your chi balanced out, right?

Yeah. I mean, I think I take vitamin B12, you know, as anybody who's on a plant-based diet should. Yeah. And that's a big argument that people raise to say, well, how can it be a healthy diet if you have to take vitamin B12 and it doesn't exist in the plant kingdom? But it's what you said.

I mean, the soils are depleted and a lot of the foods are not as nutrient dense as they once were, you know, because of the way that we raise food to eat. And most people are walking around with some sort of imbalance or deficiency in something or another. And there are plenty of people that eat whatever diet

and they're still vitamin B12 deficient. And the reason we have to take vitamin B12 is because we, I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, but it exists in the sort of microbes in the soil. Yeah, and they're gone now. And now the soil is so depleted that it's not really there anymore. And to the extent that it is there, it gets washed off. And, you know, sort of when we used to just pull the vegetables out of our nutrient-rich soil back in the day, you know, it wasn't an issue.

But now it is, no matter who you are or what you're eating. It wasn't an issue, but now it is no matter who you are or what you're eating. Well, and that's another thing with besides the soil depletion, we've become so obsessive compulsive about germs. And I get it now. Our soils can be contaminated, so you have to scrub everything. So it used to be like you'd rinse off your carrot and just eat it. And now there's all these special soaps out there. It's terrible. This is like not a good trend yeah you know it's who uh do you know who uh robin chukan is no she's a

doctor in washington dc she's fabulous really cool uh and she's an expert on on the microbiome and her whole slogan is, what is it? Like live clean, eat dirty or something like that. She's like, but she takes it to an extreme where she's like, I don't really even take showers. She's a beautiful woman. She's totally put together. She's not a hippie or anything like that. But her point is that we're in this rinse,

washed, sanitized society where there's Purell everywhere you look. And this idea is perpetuated that we need everything super clean. And this is making us sick. It's preventing our immune systems from adapting to these environmental whatevers that allow our body to sort of, you know, I don't know what's the word, adapt to them or sort of, you know. Yeah, it's building our immune system. Yeah, we're supposed to build our immune system by being exposed to bacterias and viruses and so forth.

Like I had a patient this morning, he goes, you're going to be so mad at me. I got a flu shot. My father-in-law is an MD and he just brought them over for the whole family. And I felt so pressured and like, yeah, we're supposed to get sick, we're alive. And that's part of the process. So if you have a strong immune system, you might get a little sick for a day or two and then you're fine.

Like I shared that I haven't missed a day of work in like 16 years now from a cold. And people look at me like there's something wrong with me, but it's no, I have a really great immune system. Yeah, I never get sick. I mean, once a year, I start to feel something maybe coming on. And then I just make sure I rest a little bit more.

I, you know, I up my nutrition. I take it easy on the training and it goes away right away. Like I just, you know, I never get flu shots. I mean, never do any of that. And, you know, I just, I think that we're really upside down on this whole thing. And I think the ultimate example of that

is the over-prescription of antibiotics for everything. And it just blasts your system. It just kills everything in your gut biome. You've got to like recover. How do you populate your gut with all of those micro, you know, organisms that we need to be healthy. These are our friends. They are our friends. So have your fermented foods, have your sauerkraut and kimchi and

kombucha like I'm drinking. And if you feel like you need an extra kick doing some probiotics, there's plenty of plant sources. Yeah, there's this idea that all probiotics are like acidophilus and you should eat your Greek yogurt and all that kind of thing. But there are many, many plant-based sources. So what kind of probiotics do you recommend? Well, if you're doing a supplement, I like yarrow and Country Life. But in foods, again, kombucha, you can get probiotics from sauerkraut and kimchi, miso, tempeh.

Those are all really great sources. And you can also make your own yogurt and kefir that's plant-based. So that's the fermented. How do you do that? I've never done it. I'm too lazy. Do you make your own kombucha?

No, I'm so lazy with that stuff. I love to cook, but like friends of mine who are Martha Stewart's in the kitchen, like I would never make my own tofu. I just, I'll make my own broth. That's like the extent. You're not like sprouting things in your house and things like that.

We do. We have some scobies. Julie's been, we've been making our own kombucha, which is pretty cool. Good for you. Yeah. I would love to get to that point, but I also don't know every day. My schedule is so different at this point. Eventually, maybe it'll normalize a little bit because i hate to waste food too so like if i started the process and then you know oh my god

i've been away for two days and so i just i get it yeah i get it listen this is all my wife if it was up to me you know like who knows what would happen it wouldn't be good though you'd live off of smoothies uh yeah probably i would probably eat most of my meals out. Yeah. So when you go out, how do you, how do you, I think this is a big question because listen, this, the audience of this podcast is diverse. Like there's a lot of plant-based people that listen to it, but there's a lot of people that aren't. And I think a big fear that comes up is really social. Like they may be thinking, yeah, I get it. Like I'm sold on the health aspects of it. But getting over the kind of emotional and societal barriers is really a major block. Like how do I go to a business lunch and sort of navigate that and eat healthy without creating like a ruckus?

Well, there's almost always a salad at any restaurant, at least hopefully. Always a salad at any restaurant, at least hopefully. And if you're at all concerned, making an impression like at a business lunch, eat something before. Just always have snacks with you. That's important so you're not hungry. And again, see if, you know, maybe even go talk to the waiter to the side if you're worried about making some kind of stink. Like, is there any way I could just get some steamed vegetables or something, you know, without people hearing it? But when I travel, there's always salad. And now it's getting so popular to eat healthier and more plant-based foods. So hummus is usually an option somewhere. There's usually vegetables.

You can't use the dip necessarily, but there's usually some cut up veggies at any kind of business affair. But again, eating before you go, so you're not hungry. And I always, yeah, I always have snacks with me. And that's one of the things when I fly, I get a little obsessive, like, what if there's a delay and I'm starving? I know, right? You have to prepare a little bit ahead of time, for sure. And people, there will be some backlash at the beginning. I still, I get it less and less, but believe me, when I was younger, it was a constant, constant thing. Like, oh, look what Heather's having, or we can't have Heather over, or the holidays were a huge trigger. Like the first Thanksgiving that I wasn't eating turkey.

Oh, man, it was almost like, I don't know, I had said that my mother's cooking was horrible just because I wasn't eating it. Right. You know, that was, it was an offense was taken, but it had nothing to do with her talents in the kitchen at all. So you just, I don't know, being, being determined to stick with it and people will get used to it and they'll see that you're feeling better, looking better, having more energy and get them curious. Like now my family, when I go visit, I find out that they're eating at least vegetarian meals without me even being around, which would never have happened even five years ago. So yeah, spring snacks. Yeah. It's tricky, especially in the restaurant context

and especially for men, you know, because men, because, because it brings up issues of masculinity and all this other kind of stuff that, that comes into play and it makes, you know, men feel self-conscious or what have you. So I always say kind of similar to what you say, like, you know, go approach the waiter. You can excuse yourself from the table, go find the waiter and say, Hey man, can you just, they always want to help. It's not, it's not, it's, you build it up to be this big thing in your mind. And then you realize like,

it's kind of a non-issue because they can basically whip up something for you pretty easily and you don't have to make a big stink. Uh, but that is like when we kind of talk about the emotional landscape, it is kind of coming from a place of fear. Like you're afraid, you don't want people to judge you or think differently of you. And it's kind of a defensive position. And I have one friend who very refreshingly kind of goes in the opposite, he has the opposite tact. He just goes, all right, here's what you're going to do. Like he just is the waiter. You're like, you know, he's at lunch and there's a bunch of people there. He's like, I want you to get me the biggest bowl that you have. And I want you to take every vegetable that you have and just put it in there and like put some rice in there and just like make it huge you know he's like makes

this big like theatrical production out of the whole thing and he's like basically what he's doing is he's like saying I dare you to like yeah you know come at me because he's he's owning it that's so sweet which is cool you know but I think not everyone's in that place no definitely not and it's it can be really hard and challenging, especially at the beginning, but just sticking to your guns. And I have found over the years restaurants, obviously I'm not eating at fast food places at all, but at a regular restaurant where they actually cook the food there and chop up the vegetables there, they're more than willing to make you even if it's grilled veggies like there's there's something that can be done right always so

and a lot of times salads they're not much of an option because the dressings that are available so i just say can just bring me salad and i'll and some lemon slices and i'll just put lemon juice on it and like some pepper or something. So there's, but it's getting easier and easier. Like I, I, I remember back in the day, I would have to just always bring food everywhere I went, no matter what. And now it's just not, I know in LA we're spoiled, but I've seen enough other cities and towns to know that there's almost always an option. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of places where it is challenging for sure. I think airports are a great litmus test and I'm seeing, you know, like yourself, I know you've been traveling a lot and

I have been too. Even in the last year, I've seen changes in so many different airports. I mean, obviously at LAX in the American Airlines terminal, they have a real food daily, which is amazing. You can get your green juice before you get on your plane. That's a unique scenario. But in plenty of airports, I've seen carousels where they have tons of healthy plant-based options, vegan options, like even in the takeaway, the takeout little pre-packaged stuff. And I think that that's a great arbiter of what's to come. Yeah, it's a really good sign because airports definitely, you know, every type of person is using an airport, right? Right, that's right.

It's the cross section. So the book is called Fix Your Mood With Food. So I want to talk about kind of the mental aspects of being healthy. And, you know, a big part of your book is really kind of taking a look at the over-medication of everybody to treat all of these psychological disorders. I mean, what is it like 60 million Americans are suffering from some form of mental disorder?

And, you know, there's this panoply of prescribed medications that so many people are on, all the way down to young children. And you are advocating a different approach to all of this. I am. Yeah, it's scary when I was doing the research to get a publisher finding out that over $40 billion a year is spent in the US

just on anxiety medications and treatment. $40 billion on anxiety. Just that. Well, anxiety is caused by lifestyle choice, really. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. I mean, it's a byproduct of the way we live. It's a byproduct of the way you live, but also trauma.

It can be a huge trauma from when you were a child or something that seems innocuous that could trigger anxiety later on. So, again, dealing with the problem because when you take these medications, for the most part, it's not getting to why you're depressed, why you're anxious, why you're having road rage. And if you're not fixing that, that's still boiling up in your system and can make you sick in other ways. Like I said, it can eventually lead to Alzheimer's. And so why I wrote the book is to dispel some diet myths, of course, and also just give people a way out. Like I don't need to be on Prozac the rest of my life. And all the side effects, like over 80% of people taking these psychotropic medications

have side effects. So that's pretty bad. I mean, you have fatigue, weight gain, low libido, skin issues, like it's just the list goes on and on. So why not actually use food to help you? Like if you have a major traumatic experience, I encourage getting some kind of other support besides what you eat, but it can definitely help. And also a lot of times we're depressed because we're low in nutrients. I think that I haven't done enough on this. And I don't know if there's even studies out there to prove my theory, but that it's become such an epidemic, depression, that is because one of the reasons is because our bodies are starving. If we're eating the standard American diet, our bodies are starving. So the brain is going to start to respond too

and not be able to produce neurotransmitters that we need to actually be happy and even keeled. Yeah, interesting. I mean, the food is so nutrient poor that we're actually obese and starving. We're chronically starved and chronically overweight at the same time, which is just super bizarre. It's so sad. Yeah, that's why people tend to overeat. If they eat processed food, it's because the brain's still like, okay, I'm waiting. Where's my nutrients? So give me more food, please. So it's definitely a vicious cycle. So I go into the book about some nutrients. I don't go into every single one because that would

take volumes on how they affect you mentally. And then also from a Chinese nutrition standpoint that I sort of touched on before is foods looked at energetically. So it's not what nutrients are in a food. It's if it nourishes your liver, your spleen, your lungs, your kidneys, and if it's helping with qi, yin, and yang. So if it's calming, energizing. So I've combined the two, which kind of makes it unique, I think, is having both sides to it. Because one of the main theories in Chinese medicine is each emotion is attached to an organ,

and each organ has physical manifestations when it's imbalanced. So, for example, if you have issues with grief, it affects the lungs, which kind of makes sense, right, because crying in the lungs. And if you don't process it, you can have skin issues. You can have issues with your immunity, asthma. I mean, that can go on and on and it's all in here. And then if you don't deal with anger and resentment, it can lead to migraines, blood pressure issues, PMS, muscle tension and tightness. issues, PMS, muscle tension and tightness. So each of the foods that I recommend in here,

and of course it's all plant-based, it will either help with one organ or several and help with the emotions related to it. Interesting. And have you, what has your experience been with working with your patients with this? Like say somebody comes in, they've been on Prozac or Wellbutrin or whatever it is, they've been depressed for a long time. You know, have you worked through, have you worked with people to get them off of these medications and to the other side? Like what is that? It happens most of the time, but I do have a percentage of patients that stay on the medications either, even though they're feeling better because either they're scared to try to live without them. Because, you know, some people have been on these medications for decades, which they're not meant to be used for anyway. They're meant to be used in emergency situations. Or their doctor or

psychiatrist refuses. They're like, no, I don't care how much better you're feeling. You have to stay on these medications. So, and I get it, you know, we're sort of trained to think this, the medication is the only answer. But most people, if either come off their medications or at least reduce them. One of the examples I have in the book is a woman, Wendy, who had, she was paranoid schizophrenic. She had a history of bulimia and anorexia and like lots of trauma in her life. And she was on several medications, which, you know, I respected her decision

and her psychiatrist decision because when she first got sick, she thought she was so paranoid. She thought literally every man was going to harm her sexually. So, you know, going, she was so scared of going back to that. So anyway, we reduced her medications and at the slightest hint that she was getting anxious, her doctor would raise everything back up again

without waiting to see if things evened out. Nowhere near having a paranoid episode at all. So, but then there's people who come to me and they're on five medications and within six months they're off everything. Wow, that's amazing. Yeah, it totally can be done. So that's psychotropic medications, but also if you're on other medications like statins or whatever is going on with you. I think this gets into the sort of intersection of Chinese medicine and Western medicine and how these kind of two things can coexist and work together in unison towards a common goal as opposed to being at odds with each other.

So if someone comes in to you and they have, like they're a full-blown schizophrenic or they have extreme bipolar disorder, really bad. Yes. I mean, have you dealt with cases like that? I mean, how, you know, like really bad. Yes. I mean, have you dealt with cases like that? I mean, how does that, how do you manage something like that? Well, with them, they usually reduce their medications.

And it's always with the consent of their doctor and them talking to their medical doctor because, and that's with any medications. I always say, go to your MD, see what they have to say, because they'll know the best way to at least wean you off of things. That's not my area of expertise in any way. And I would hate for you to start going back to the way you were feeling pre-medication. So always consult your doctor who prescribed to you. But know they all at least reduce their medications no matter how sick they are.

Because there's at least my clinical experience, and some people on here might not like this, but there's usually an instance or instances that's led to sort of the cracking of the soul. So I have patient Wendy in the book. I've changed some things about her obviously for anonymity. But she was molested growing up. patient, Wendy in the book, I've changed some things about her obviously for anonymity, but she was molested growing up. Her father beat her and then she was raped by her pastor. And that's what led to her being paranoid schizophrenic and her psychotic break. So it was like this buildup of things that it's rare, at least in my clinical experience, I've never seen anyone just like, I had a great childhood and everything was perfect and no issues at all. My parents

showed me all the love in the world and nothing really horrible ever happened to me. I've never seen that. So someone who is full-time psychiatrist or treating addiction, because that's another thing I work with is addicts. They might have different experience than me, but my clinical experience, everyone has. There's some really deep-rooted, ugly, quote-unquote ugly stuff that never got dealt with. Right, right, right, right. So it's getting to the root. Yeah. Just like it's similar to eating lower on the food chain.

You got to get to the bottom of these things, right? Exactly. Instead of putting Band-Aids on them. Yeah, exactly. That's fascinating. And I'm also really intrigued and interested in your perspective on addiction. You know, I'm in recovery and have been for many years. But, you know, I'm an addict.

I'm a recovering alcoholic and I always will be. And most days I don't walk around obsessing about drugs and alcohol, but I have my moments and my cravings and this is something that I live with and I treat it through 12 step and have been able to build an entire new life as a result of being sober.

But I'm interested in how you do what you do uh can impact uh sort of that addictive beast that lives within me um well getting to um yes it's something that you always have to work on a day at a time, right? But I would say with any addiction, acupuncture is amazing to help. I've never done it. Now I have to do it. Yeah, now you have to do it. It's amazing for helping if you're in the process of getting sober or have been sober for years, helping just decompress, help you deal with whatever might be coming up for you through the recovery process. Because as I mentioned before, each point has a spiritual and emotional

component to it. So say you, I know you were a drinker, right? Mm-hmm. Mostly. Yes. So someone who's drinking might have issues with resentment, anger, frustration. I don't know what that's about. Yeah, you don't know. No idea. No clue. Let me ask and talk to your wife, right?

Hungry, angry. They call it HALT. Hungry, angry, lonely, tired. Yeah. So dealing with those emotions through acupuncture herbs and food so your body can start to release those suppressed memories and feelings. And sometimes I've had people have huge epiphanies during or within a few days of a treatment. I've had men, grown men, break down sobbing during a treatment. I've recently had a patient whose father died two months ago.

His dad came into the room with him and held his hand while he was going through the treatment. I mean, it can be really, really powerful stuff. And I did part of my residency at a drug rehab. Yeah, Exodus, right? Exodus, yes. That's an intense place. Yeah, tell people what Exodus is like because that's no joke. Yes. Well, Exodus at the time was at Daniel Freeman Hospital and it's most known, at least in my world, Kurt Cobain stayed there right before passing. And I don't

know if they were offering acupuncture at the time, Had you been there? Yes, if I had been there, I could have saved Nirvana. What a dream. So anyway, Exodus is where people go to get off of drugs and alcohol. And I saw patients there who would drink a fifth of vodka before even leaving the house in the morning. I don't know how severe it got for you. People who were spending $5,000 a day on cocaine, you know, people who've lost their jobs, their families, just really intense. But I also worked in their psychiatric unit, which

I think maybe should be combined with each other. Yeah, it should be. Yeah. And everyone that I treated who had gone through recovery before, attempted getting sober before, all said it was the easiest process for them. Because acupuncture helps with the cravings. It helps detoxify the body faster. And also deals with any of the emotions that are coming up. So people who are newly sober have a lot of feelings. Yeah, of course. It comes on like a tidal wave because once you remove the block, you know, the thing that's suppressing it, it becomes a big, you know, it becomes a big hot mess. Yes. A big hot mess. So, and it was interesting because,

you know, I dealt with addiction in my family and personal relationships before, but working at this rehab, I really saw it affects everyone. It doesn't matter what walk of life, what religion you are, how much money you have, none of that. It's across the board, everyone. And I think we're raised in this culture to sort of judge addicts, just like what all the backlash with Robin Williams committing suicide, all the judgment around that. But, you know, these are sometimes housewives who were given pain medication by their doctor and just kept prescribing and prescribing.

So, you know, a year down the road, 10 years down the road, there's taking oxycodone like it's chewing gum. So it's just, you know, it's taking oxycodone like it's chewing gum. So it's just, you know, it's not that you're a bad person. It's just, this is how you deal with your pain. So the acupuncture and the sort of the herbs and what you do that, I mean, are you seeing that as like a cure or just another tool in the kind of recovery? Well, I hate to say cure with addiction because I'd hate for someone to think, oh, I've been going to Heather for a year.

Let me have a cocktail, you know? So you really need to know for yourself, but it definitely makes the process so much easier, no matter how addicted you were to whatever your drug of choice or even, you know, sugar. Like sugar is so highly addicting. So getting people off of that and living with it and not going back. So I'd like to say that I could cure it, but I've never suggested anyone trying. Right, right, right. Yeah, I mean, I know, well, I resist the idea that I could be cured.

It's more about how do I manage it and how do I suppress it while also surrendering to it and accepting that this is what it is and sort of walking through it. Yeah, I don't think it's ever a good idea. Like, oh, let me just try it. It's like, you know, a smoker is smokers like oh I just thought I could have one cigarette I was at a party and then within a week they're back to two packs a day it's just you know why do that but if you can make the whole situation easier and your cravings less intense less often you know even you know I've I've treated people who've been sober for 30 years and they're still like, I still think about having a drink. So just easing that process.

The next thing I want to talk about, which is the spiritual, I mean, for me, recovery is a spiritual practice, right? It's all about, you know, sort of believing in a higher power and all these things they teach you. But I believe that the solution for me really is it is spiritual. And I know that an aspect of what you do is also vested in the spiritual. Yes. So what is your perspective on that and how do you counsel your patients?

Well, I don't bring it up until I gauge where they're at with their religious beliefs or non-beliefs because I never would want to push what I'm thinking and feeling on anyone, especially not in a professional situation. And I've gotten over the years a sense of like, okay, this person goes to church every Sunday or this person observes Shabbat.

So I have to, whatever it is, like I need to kind of work around what their beliefs are. So if it seems like I can talk to them at their level or what their belief system is, then I will. And if I sense that they're open, if they ask me questions, I never mention it because I consider myself Buddhist. But I don't just like say, hey, I'm Buddhist, welcome to my office. I don't do that. But if patients are curious, and I also, I think I've gotten good at gauging if people are even open to talking about their mental health and their past and everything. But everyone gives me clues where they are emotionally.

So even if they're not really open to talking to me about what happened to them when they were six years old or the fighting that's going on at home with their spouse or whatever it is, then I still get clues from what they say and also what their symptoms are. Because like, as I said before, each emotion can manifest physically. And that usually becomes really obvious to me within just 10 minutes of talking to someone. Right, right, right. Yeah, I just read an article this morning and it was about how this neuroscience student is conducting these experiments on the relationship between meditation and mindfulness and mental disorders.

And essentially the takeaway is that by practicing mindfulness, you can eradicate a lot of these mental disorders down to the biological, like cellular level. I guess he's, what is he? I wrote it down here. I think he's at UMass Medical School. And he had, how is it?

What is it? I'm trying to, I'm looking at my notes here that uh that this this practice of mindfulness and meditation can trigger mental and even genetic alterations and molecular changes which is pretty i mean if that's true you know i mean it's like i didn't read the actual study but but just positing that is really powerful. And I think it's, yeah, go ahead. It makes sense because every time we feel something, whether it's positive or negative, I hate to use those terms, but that's how people relate to anger, hate, love, joy, whatever it is.

We create new neurons and synapses in our brain. So it makes sense that if we're conscious of how we're thinking, we can stop that process. Yeah. It all goes back to this idea that we all have so much more power and control over ourselves than we think we do, or that we've been led to believe, right? That if we make alterations in what we eat and how we navigate through our day to minimize anxiety and these practices like meditation and the kind of foods that we're eating and being open to things like acupuncture, that we can really address the root cause of so many of these chronic ailments that are just killing us by the millions. Oh yeah, absolutely. The mental aspect is a huge, an emotional aspect is a huge part of why we're sick and we're sick as a nation.

But people don't, they don't wanna change. No, no, it's scary to look at your junk. It's really scary. I would imagine most people that come to see you, like maybe they're, it depends on how much pain they're in, I suppose. When they're in a lot, people are more motivated to make changes when they're in a lot of pain. Oh, yeah. But if they're not quite there yet, like maybe they're enthusiastic for a short period of time, but, you know, they just lapse back into whatever they were doing. Oh, that happens a lot. And I can't tell you the percentage, but I get a sense of people stopping coming to see me because they're making changes and they can't be attached to their ailment or their past the way they used to be.

So they stop coming in because it's part of our identity when we're sick. Right. If they've lapsed back into bad habits, then they're in a shame spiral and they don't want to face you. Yeah, exactly. Well, and I always say, you're laughing, but I do try to, and I hope I come across with my patients that I'm not judging them because I've, you know, I want to- I'm sure you're not, but it's what's in their head, not your head. Well, I, you know, like I gave, it took me 20 years of being vegetarian to finally give up dairy and it's, you know, it's a little shameful for being vegetarian to finally give up dairy.

And it's a little shameful for me, but I was so hooked in. You should be ashamed. I would go sometimes six months without it. And then the pull would come back. So I get it. I've been there in other parts of my life too. But that's the most obvious one that I'm willing to share with people anyway. So we've all done it.

We're human. We're going to make mistakes a million times a day. And, you know, whatever it is that you consider a bad habit or a bad way to respond to things, like, you know, it's all right. It's a learning process. Yeah. We hold on to this illusion of perfection too strongly. Yeah. You know, nobody's perfect.

Nobody. We don't give ourselves permission to fail. It's like it's not okay to mess up. And of course, we don't wanna mess up. We don't wanna make mistakes, but I think we'd be better off if we could just give ourselves a little bit of a wider berth,

because you only move forward when you give yourself permission to falter. And that applies to everything, whether you're an athlete training for, you know, your sport or a race or an event, or you're a writer. Like if you're a writer and you're trying to write, you got to let yourself write bad before it's going to be good. You know, if you think, if you're putting so much pressure on yourself that every letter, every word you type has to be the ultimate word. You're never gonna do anything, right? You just, you're paralyzed.

Yeah, and I've had so many people and you probably have gotten this too, being an author, like, oh my God, I've always wanted to write a book, but, and it's definitely, it's very vulnerable writing a book, I think, and letting it all, the world to see, you know, what I'm about.

Of course, but there's power in the vulnerability, you know, ultimately, you know, what I'm about. Of course. But there's power in the vulnerability, you know, ultimately, you know, and I've said this before, like, you know, I knew that my book would only work if I was willing to be vulnerable. You know, if you're not, what's the point? You know what I mean? Like, you've got to be able to be honest and authentic to who you are. And that's very frightening. Yeah. You know, it's very frightening. And I think that, you know, using the analogy of the book or the metaphor of being a writer, yeah, a lot of people say, I'd love to write a book

or I have an idea for a book, but then they never do anything because it's too frightening, you know, or it just seems too impossible. Whereas if you could just forget about all of that and just, why don't you just write a sentence today? Or you know what I mean? Like write one page a day and then a year from now, maybe you might have something that might resemble a book. Yeah, exactly. And take

all of the pressure off of yourself and just focus on the moment. Yeah. And just like eating, it's eating healthier. You know, today I'm not going to have any animal products. Today I'm not going to have any sugar. Or just maybe this meal or in the next hour. I know what I'm going to be eating, you know, in a half an hour. And just don't worry about the rest of it. Exactly. It's the same with recovery.

You know, I'm not going to take a drink at lunch today. Hopefully not. Maybe. I haven't had lunch yet. But right now I'm not drinking, so that's good. Yeah. Or, you know, I had this guy, I'm not drinking, so that's good. Yeah. Yeah, or I had this guy, Tim Van Orden, on the podcast the other week. Yes, I know Tim.

You know Tim? Yeah, he's wonderful. Yeah. And he was talking about breaking habits that don't serve you, and he was using the analogy of trying to get out of bed to go running when it's freezing out and he doesn't want to get out of bed. It just seems overwhelming. It's just easier to stay in bed. But just like, okay, I'm just going to sit up in bed.

I'm going to do that. Yeah. Breaking things down into their, you know, micro parts. That's smart. And making it digestible. Especially living in, he's in Vermont, right? Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think he's going to be moving back here soon.

Okay. He was out here a couple weeks ago. Nice. I think he's got a little California. soon. He was out here a couple of weeks ago and I think he's got a little California bug. California bug. Running through his blood again. But that's applicable to everything, eating habits, recovery, creative projects.

Yeah. And it goes back to mindfulness, right? The more mindful you can be, the more anchored in the moment you are and then it releases that anxiety and it helps you not live in a future outcome or wallowing in some past. Right?

Yeah, exactly. So just letting it go. So if somebody's listening and they don't live in California, so they can't call you up and make an appointment. Well, they can. They can? Phone. Oh, you do phone stuff?

Yeah. Okay, good. We'll make sure we have all the information. But let's just say somebody, just to give some people some general, like obviously you can't diagnose, you need to sit with somebody and look them in the eyes and tell them that they have adrenal fatigue. But what are some of the most common things that you see that maybe you could impart some wisdom to people who are listening, you know, just typical people living their lives who are maybe, you know, not getting enough rest and stressed out, maybe don't eat as great as they should, you know,

just the average person. What are some simple things that kind of across the board that anybody could benefit from? Drink more water. That's first. Every single one of my patients doesn't drink enough water when they first come see me. How much water should we be drinking? Well, I'd say on average, as a general rule of thumb, half your weight in ounces. So if you weigh 140 pounds, 70 ounces of water. And that's give or take with how much you're exercising, if you're having coffee, soda, or alcohol to dehydrate you, but at least half your weight in ounces is a good rule of thumb. And adding lemon or raw apple cider vinegar to your water gives an added benefit.

I know you have to acquire a taste to the apple cider vinegar. It's like drinking Easter eggs. But lemon makes it taste better. So if you're used to sweetened drinks or sodas, it adds some flavor but also helps with the absorption of water. It's a mini detox fire. Lemons are calming. It's alkalizing. Yes.

Alkalizing. And people always say to me, how, how could it be alkalizing? Because these are acids. Yeah, it's how our bodies. I have an answer to this, but please elaborate. I was just going to say, it doesn't matter how it tastes. It's how our body absorbs and metabolizes the food. So something as acidic as raw apple cider vinegar or lemon is actually alkaline in nature.

So you want to do as many foods alkaline as possible. And you want to add to that? No, I was just going to, it's alkaline forming. Yes, they are acids, but for whatever reason that I don't understand, it has an alkalizing effect on your system. And I'm a firm believer in this idea of eating alkaline forming food.

I mean, overall, a plant-based diet is predominantly alkaline forming. Not every plant food is alkaline forming, but on the whole, it is. And when you're eating these alkaline forming foods, that's very anti-inflammatory. And they're starting to understand that so many of these chronic illnesses are related to inflammation. The less inflamed we are, the more likely we are to sidestep some of these. There is a kind of counterpoint out there that says, oh, that's all nonsense.

All this alkaline acid stuff is not, I don't believe this, but I know that there are other people saying that. So I was interested in. Well, we have the proof. Americans are really sick and they're eating if not everything acidic pretty much everything is acidic that they're eating there's there's so that's that to me if you don't want to believe it if one person or one study contradicts that it's like look look at how americans are We're all overweight, we're sick, we're miserable.

In many ways we're in pain and we're eating, for most Americans are eating acidic foods. So that to me, I don't understand. And stress contributes to this sort of inflammation and the acidic nature of your, and it's not that you become acidic, it's that your body has to work really hard to bring that pH balance down to slightly alkaline,

like just shy of neutral, I guess, right? Yes. And that takes a toll on your body. It leaches minerals out of your bones. One of the reasons osteoporosis is so high in this country is because the acid forming foods that everyone's consuming. And, you know, we're eating tons of dairy, and that just proves to me that dairy is not the best option. Right. Animal foods, dairy, processed foods are all very acid-forming, and that ends up leaching the calcium out of your bones.

So, ironically, dairy consumption is actually contributing to osteoporosis, which is the opposite of what we've been told. Yes. Indoctrinated with. And what? Indoctrinated with that message. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's one thing. And I encourage people to try something new every week. Don't overwhelm yourself unless you have that personality. And I think Rich is one of those people just going 100% all in is saying, okay, this week, I'm going to try kale for the

first time and just see what I can do with it. If I like it, try different recipes. And then next week, have a smoothie every day and see how you feel and just start to incorporate healthier options. And the more you do that, the less the unhealthy foods are going to be appealing. You're going to see how much better you're feeling. And I also recommend trying to let go of something that isn't serving you, whether it's an action or food or some lifestyle choice, a person, a relationship. Every week to month and just giving that up. So whatever works best for you, do it to a point where you feel, you know, some pressure, but not overwhelmed. Because when you're overwhelmed, that's why one of the reasons extreme diets never

work on top of most of them being really unhealthy is because you feel overwhelmed and deprived and starving. And of course, it's not going to last. Yeah, that's great advice. You know, I always try to encourage people to not look at it from a deprivation point of view, as opposed to focusing on all the things that you're removing. Just focus on the things that you're adding in, like you said, like the kale or the smoothie, and try to get excited about these new things.

Don't worry about what you're not eating. Focus on what you are bringing in, like the abundance that you're bringing in. Yeah, and just think how lucky we are that we can have these options. Like, oh my God, I get to go to the farmer's market and pick out the most beautiful, delicious, juicy pear tomorrow.

You know, like that's really exciting to me. And when you say, oh, you know, when you start eating these healthy foods and you feel good, then you're not going to crave those as much. You will not crave as much those foods that are making you feel lousy. People like are like, yeah, right. But it's, that was my experience. It's mine too. Once I started eating these foods, I'm like, oh my God, I feel so good. Like, I just want to feel good all the time. So I'm going to gravitate towards those foods. That doesn't mean I don't crave, you know, these other things.

Of course I do. But I feel more – I have more energy behind making a better choice because I know you really become innately familiar with the equation between the foods you're eating and how you feel. Well, I'm a living example, too. I mean, I grew up McDonald's. I had half a pound of bacon every Sunday. I still get teased by family members for that memory. Soda, Lucky Charms for breakfast. Like, I had something sugary at least three times a day.

Wonder Bread with bologna and peanut butter was one of my staples for lunch. And the thought of any of that- Bologna and peanut butter. I know. I don't know if it's a white trash thing or what, but that was what I loved. I had bologna and ketchup. So, and then the thought of any of those foods now, I just could never go back. And it's not just because I know they're not good for me. I just have absolutely no interest in them at all. Right. So you got to blaze the path a little bit before you can get to that place.

Yeah. And you should trust, though, that it will happen. And a lot of that, I think, also happens with the change in the microbiome. Yes. As you start eating these healthy foods, the nature of that ecology in your gut starts to change and that impacts your cravings, believe it or not. It really does. It has a strong impact on your brain chemistry. So it only makes sense that you're going to crave different things the happier your belly is.

That's right. Very good. So fix your mood with food. What else is in the book that we haven't talked about? So, fix your mood with food. What else is in the book that we haven't talked about? Well, there are lots of case studies, so I hinted on that. And I give a brief description at the beginning, just a few chapters on what Chinese medicine is. I don't get into too many specifics because I don't want to overwhelm the reader with too much information that they're never going to use later. But it's more, and you don't need to remember it to understand the rest of the book, but it's more just to make people see it's not that weird.

It's not that out there. It actually makes perfect sense. And then I have a section, this third section is all a long list of different foods broken up into categories like legumes, seeds, fruit, vegetables, and how they help your mood from a Chinese standpoint and how they help from a Western standpoint. And then I'll give a suggestion, not a full recipe, but a suggestion on how I like to eat these foods. And then at the very end, I give some tips on how to keep going. So once you have all this

information, like, okay, now I know this and there's, I need support in some way. So, you know, finding other people to do this with is a great one. And again, you know, slowly adding new things. And at the very end, there's easy to follow charts. So now you have this, this information, like, okay, I know I'm going to be really anxious about a job interview next week. What foods can I eat to support me so I'm less anxious? It's not to numb you in any way, but just to support you. So when you walk in there, you're not about to pass out because you're so anxious about it. Right, it's very practical like sort of applications of this.

So women who are suffering PMS, like, okay, I know that's going to start happening in the next few days. What foods can I eat? So I'm not acting like a raving maniac. Right. Well, that's great. What is the kind of overlap or distinction between Chinese medicine and Ayurveda? Well, there's...

Because they're similar. Yes, because there's five elements in Chinese medicine and Ayurveda has three, Vata, Pitta, and... What's the third one? I'm totally drawing a blank. Vata, Pitta, and... No, not Dosha. Dosha is the name for the three of them. Okay. Anyway, but since they come from the same part of the world, and it's debatable on which medicine came first,

and I've learned a little bit about Ayurveda, and there is some overlap with herbs, but I haven't done enough. There's so much I can do just with Chinese medicine to add Ayurveda. I think it would just, my brain would explode. So, but there is some overlap, but there is the theory of balancing the elements and nourishing and detoxification and all those things are similar. Yeah. I mean, the idea is the same, that the body is complex and needs to be in balance. These various systems that...

And look at the whole body. Yeah, and look at the whole body and using herbs and dietary protocol and lifestyle choices to bring that into better balance. Yeah. I can say Ayurveda, when I was in India, I was there during monsoon season, so I developed this horrible cough from being exposed to rain every day for 30 days.

And I went to an Ayurvedic doctor and he said I had a fever of 103. I was pretty sick and I was so sick I didn't realize it. But anyway, he's like, okay, I'll give you some herbs today because I explained explained to him, you know, what I did for a living and it was important to try to do it naturally. And he goes, if you're not, if you're not better by tomorrow, then I'm putting you on medication. And within 12 hours I was feeling better. Wow. So I know Ayurveda. What did he give you? No, I was, I have no idea. That's the thing. Like my wife, you know, she healed herself of a thyroglossal duct cyst on her neck on an Ayurvedic protocol. But she was seeking the advice of an Ayurvedic doctor and he would give her these herbs and these little baggies, you know, they weren't labeled. And I was like, what is this stuff?

It smelled terrible, you know. I have no idea what I took. Yeah. It's just kind of scary. Right. But I mean, they understand vegetarian at least. So I'm like, I'm veg. He's like, okay.

He got that part. Yeah, he got that part. He wasn't giving you like eyeballs or something like that, right? No, I hope not. Yeah. Well, it's intense. I mean, I have some friends that are studying Chinese medicine and it's super hardcore. Like they're studying their butts off for like years

you know it's very very intense i went to school graduate school for me was four and a half years of classes with a year and a half residency which i was able to do while i was still taking classes at the end about 5 000 hours of class class time and the license for California is as hard as taking the bar. They only pass about 55% of the people who take it. So I studied full-time for four months, and I had three study groups on top of that to take the exam. So it's not, because I do get asked less and less often now, but I do get asked if I went to school for this.

I'm like, well, I am a physician, so I would hope get asked if I went to school for this. I'm like, well, I am a physician, so I would hope that I had to go to school for this. And it's definitely challenging. It's half Western medicine. So I know how to, I can actually prescribe blood work and x-rays and I know how to read the results. I had to take tons of anatomy and physiology, and I know how to read the results. I had to take tons of anatomy and physiology, chemistry, biochemistry, physiology. And then this other half is learning about the point locations, what they do,

herbs, Chinese nutrition, and all the different modality. I didn't get to go into all of them, but gua sha and cupping and tuina and qigong and all those things that come along with it. We'll have to come back and we can get into it in more detail. Sure. What is the perception of Chinese medicine practitioners by traditional Western doctors?

It's improving, for sure. They're starting to see, oh, my patients are getting better. But there's still this idea that what they do they know more than doctors of chinese medicine somehow that that md title and again not all of them are like this but that gives them somehow that they're smarter and know more than me but it's definitely improving and i have like i have oncologists referring to me now which is definitely a. Well, that's been going on for a while. But yeah, they're seeing the results. And actually, some MDs are even incorporating acupuncture into their clinics.

The only thing is, I can say, if you go to an MD who does acupuncture, MDs in the US don't actually have to go to acupuncture school at all. So find out if they've even taken classes because they won't hurt you, hopefully, but they won't give you the best possible results because you really, like I said, almost 5,000 hours of schooling and MDs sometimes will take a weekend course, but there's no certification for them at all.

So if somebody is looking for a Chinese medicine practitioner like yourself, Chinese medicine doctor or an acupuncturist in their area, is there like a website where people can find out who the legit people are? For people that are listening who want to learn more and maybe seek out the counsel of someone like yourself near where they live? Well, there is a national licensing program. It's separate from California because California is going to be the toughest way to get licensed. I don't know their exact URL, but if you just put National Acupuncture Association, it'll come up and it should have a list of all the acupuncturists that are licensed that take that for the states that

take that licensing. Um, and then for California, you can look up everyone who's licensed in the state of California and New York has their own licensing exam and a few other states and, you know, ask friends, neighbors, colleagues, if they've ever done it, who they like. And if you don't know anyone that has done it, Yelp isn't 100% guaranteed you'll get the best results, even though they have a lot of positive reviews. But that is another option. And I do say to everyone who's asked me, do you know someone here or how do I get a referral?

If you're not happy with that first person you go to, try a second acupuncturist because we're all very different and have different ways of looking at a patient, different ways of interacting with the patient. So if that first experience doesn't blow you know, if it's so-so, give them a few times. But if you're just like, oh, no, this isn't the right person for me or that hurt too much, go to try someone new. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Yes, because acupuncture does not need to hurt. Some acupuncturists can be very aggressive with how they put in needles.

But all my patients pretty much fall asleep during a treatment. So that's how easy it is and relaxing it is. So if you get someone that's like, ask, you're screaming, and then try someone else. Not a good idea. All right. All right, cool.

Well, we got to wrap it up here. Okay. But this was delightful. It was fun. Thank you, Heather. It was very informative and I it up here. Okay. But this was delightful. It was fun. Thank you, Heather. It was very informative and I enjoyed it. Me too. Thanks for having me.

I think we did it. How do you feel? I feel great. You feel all right? You say everything you want to say. Oh my goodness. Well, there's always more, but that's enough for today. Cool.

Well, if you're digging on Heather, the first thing to do is to pick up her book called Fix Your Mood With Food, available everywhere. Use the Amazon banner ad at richroll.com, of course, which helps us out and helps Heather out and helps get the healthy message out to the world, right? Yes. And if you want to connect with Heather, the best place to do that is her website is livenaturallivewell.com, right? Yes. And on Twitter, you're DocHeather, at DocHeather. Where else?

You have a Facebook page? Facebook is DocHeather and the number one. And Pinterest, I think I'm one DocHeather. I couldn't get in time. You've got to get your branding sorted out. I know. But I didn't get them in time, unfortunately. And I was thinking, okay, if I have to have the one,

have it at the end, but someone had already taken it. So, yes. And there's someone with, I tried to get the web address, Doc Heather. I mean, I love Live Natural Live Well, but a plastic surgeon has Doc Heather as their website. Really? Oh, shameful. Yes, it's all right. Yeah. All right.

Well, you could, well, we could talk about that. All right. Well, thanks so much. It was great talking to you. Thanks for having me. Peace. Plants. All right.

Well, there you go. I mean, there's a few things to think about as you approach your next meal, as you get ready to head out on that grocery store expedition. I got a ton out of that. I hope you did too. I'm sure lots of you out there are navigating New Year's resolutions around diet and nutrition and setting goals for yourself. And hopefully, Heather filled in some of the gaps for you and inspired you to take your

program to the next level. for you and inspired you to take your program to the next level. Don't forget to check out the show notes for this episode so you can continue the learning. Lots of what Heather talked about, there's hyperlinks to further information so you can expand your educational experience that this podcast has offered you. On a similar note, I got a few things to say on the subject of plant-based nutrition and goal setting and goal achieving. In fact, I've a few things to say on the subject of plant-based nutrition and goal setting and goal achieving. In fact, I've got a couple online courses on just these very subjects. The first is called The Ultimate Guide to Plant-Based Nutrition. The second is called The Art of Living with Purpose.

Both of these courses are available at mindbodygreen.com. They're both multiple hours of streaming video content. They both have tons of awesome downloadable tools and they feature interactive online communities. Basically, everything that you need to dial up your dietary regimen, your nutrition, everything you need to get more plants into your active life and everything you need to set yourself

on a new and healthier nutrition trajectory and also, God forbid, to probe deep inside you to learn more about what makes you tick so that you can set the right goals for yourself and then take those goals across the finish line. And ultimately, my goal for you is to simply raise the bar on your personal and athletic, but mainly your personal life experience. So if you want to find out more about those courses, just go to mindbodygreen.com, click on video courses at the top of the homepage. It's all there.

For all your plant power provisions, go to richroll.com. We got new t-shirts. We got the cool tech t-shirts for running, for going to the gym. They're sweet. We got a new t-shirt design. It's a California license plate motif.

So go there and check it out. T-shirts are in limited supply, so get them while they're hot. And don't forget to subscribe to my newsletter so you can stay clued in to What's What. And if you've been enjoying the show, hit us up with a review on iTunes and check out the iOS app to access the entire podcast catalog. What else? app to access the entire podcast catalog. What else? What else? Oh, I know. Hey, I'm enjoying doing this Q&A thing. This extra show a week has been super fun. I'm really digging it. I want to keep the momentum going. I want to keep the flow going. So please keep sending those questions. If there's something you want me to talk about, you want me to address, write it out and send it to me and we'll put it in the hopper and hopefully you'll get your question answered. Thank you, Tyler Pyatt, for production, audio engineering, music and sound design on today's show.

Thank you, Chris Swan, for additional production and editorial support. Thank you, Sean Patterson, for all the awesome graphic art that goes along with each episode. Thank you, guys. See, for all the awesome graphic art that goes along with each episode. Thank you, guys. See you next week. Peace. Plants, plants, plants, plants, plants, plants, plants. Thank you.