The Rich Roll Podcast - How One Man Overcame Alcoholism, Lost 150 Pounds & Conquered Badwater, The World’s Toughest Footrace

Episode Date: November 17, 2014

I’m obsessed with the idea that we can all do and be better. That's what this show is about — a loud and clear call to action. A graceful nudge to help anyone and everyone not just understand, but actually believe that we are all capable of so much more than we often allow ourselves to accept. Enter David Clark. It’s fun to interview the celebrated. But quite honestly there is just something far more personally gratifying about sharing the story of an anonymous, everyman hero. What truly moves and inspires me are tales of regular people with regular problems who courageously meet severe challenges head on; do something unexpected and astounding that strains the boundaries of what we imagine possible; and come out the other side transformed with life lessons that can benefit us all. Much like my conversation with Josh LaJaunie ( RRP #63 is a must listen if you haven’t already and in my top-5 most downloaded shows), this interview will move you. It will touch you. It will erase whatever obstacles and excuses you rely on that perpetuate bad habits, keep you stuck and reinforce denial. My sincere hope is that David's story will help you really get that no matter what your circumstances or environment, that you always hold the power to implement personal change that can profoundly alter the trajectory of your life — beyond your wildest imagination even. I was first introduced to David by my friend Mishka Shubaly ( another RRP fave with a shocking 5 appearances on the show ). I didn’t know anything about him, but when Mishka says he's worth investigating, I investigate. I winced at photos of a guy pushing 320 pounds, prematurely aged, red-faced and bloated, cocktail in hand. I know an alcoholic when I see one, and this image of David cut a little too close to home. A guy who looked like hell, red lining towards death without a care while wrecking havoc, destruction and woe in the lives of loved ones and anyone and who happened to cross his path. Then I saw a picture of a fit and slim 165 pound athlete crossing the finish line at insane ultra-marathons like the Leadville 100 and Badwater – a 135 mile run across Death Valley in 130-degree July heat — widely considered to be the world’s two toughest footraces. The 320+ pound guy, who looked like some kind of menacing Archie Bunker-esque uncle you’re scared to talk to bore almost no resemblance to that runner achieving things that would impress even the most accomplished marathoners. To say that I was amazed by the astounding extent to which he had seemingly transformed his life would be an understatement. My first thought was, can this be real? But when I looked closely, it was undeniable. It was indeed the same guy. I needed to know more. I needed to know how he did it. So I reached out to David and he sent me his self-published memoir, Out There: A Story of Ultra Recovery*.

Welcome to the Rich Roll Podcast, episode 113 with David Clark. The Rich Roll Podcast. Greetings, citizens of the earth. My name is Rich Roll and I am your host. Welcome to my podcast. Thank you for listening. Thank you for spreading the word with your friends. Thank you for Instagramming all the cool ways and places where you enjoy the show. Thank you for subscribing to my newsletter at richroll.com where you can find tons of great products and services to take your

lifestyle next level. And thank you for supporting the show by clicking through the Amazon banner ad at richroll.com for your Amazon purchases. Hey, you guys, this show's free. It's always going to be free. Support us with this simple, not time-consuming act. Come on, what are you guys doing? Thank you so much for everybody who has been doing that, by the way. We really appreciate it. So anyway, each week I sit down with the best and the brightest in health, wellness, diet, nutrition, fitness, mindfulness, creativity, and entrepreneurship.

I got world-class athletes. I got doctors. I got nutritionists, psychologists, yogis, entrepreneurs, artists, and even the occasional inspirational everyman, the guy who has overcome insurmountable obstacles to do the extraordinary, like today's guest. All forward-thinking, all paradigm-busting minds here to share their experience, their knowledge, and their insights to, wait for it, help you discover, uncover, unlock, and unleash your best, most authentic self. I'm obsessed with the idea that we can all do and be better. And if this show is anything, it's really a loud and clear call to action. It's a sounding bell to help anyone and everyone understand and actually believe that you are capable of so

much more than you allow yourself to entertain. David Goggins is, if you haven't heard of him, he's an amazing endurance athlete. He's a guy I admire and respect tremendously. And he once said something that really stuck with me. He said, when you think you're done, you've only accomplished about 40% of what you're truly capable of. I think about that a lot. percent of what you're truly capable of. I think about that a lot. And I think that quote completely embodies the ethos of today's guest, David Clark. You know, it's fun to sit down with celebrated guests, people that are really popular, people that everybody has heard of, and it's a sure way to get more downloads. But I think there's something far more gratifying to me personally about sharing the story of an everyman hero, a regular guy with regular guy problems, toiling away in anonymity,

a guy that meets severe challenges head on and does something that challenges the imagination about just what's possible and comes out the other side transformed. There's nothing more powerful or palpable about that kind of story. And much like my conversation with Josh Lajani, episode 63, which is a must listen. If you're new to the show and you have not listened to my interview with Josh, episode 63, you got to go back and listen to it. And to date, it's still, I think it's my most downloaded, most popular show. But anyway, this interview will move you similarly. It will inspire you, and it will erase whatever obstacles and excuses that you rely on to perpetuate those bad habits that keep you stuck and reinforce denial. And by listening to this interview, my hope

is that you will realize that no matter what your circumstances, no matter what your environment, that we all have the power to implement profound personal change beyond our collective imagination in miraculous and fantastic ways. It just takes a decision followed by consistent actions. I was introduced to David by my buddy Mishka, Mishka Shubali, another show favorite. And I didn't know much about him. I'd heard of him, but I really didn't know what his story was. So I decided to look into it. If Mishka says, hey, you should check this guy out, then I take him seriously. And I poked around and I came upon photos of a guy pushing 320 pounds, a bloated face, cocktail in hand. And if I know anything, I know what an alcoholic looks like when I see one. And David fit the bill top to bottom. He was

a guy who looked like hell, redlining towards death and creating a wide path of destruction in his wake. I continued to poke around, and then I saw a picture of a fit and slim 165-pound athlete crossing the finish line at Badwater, a 135-mile run across Death Valley, the hottest place on earth, widely considered to be the world's toughest foot race. The change was so astounding. My first thought was like, can this be real? The 320 plus pound guy who looked like some kind of menacing Archie Bunker you're scared to talk to, decades older than his biological age, bore almost no resemblance to that runner achieving something even the most accomplished runners find absolutely terrifying. But when I look closely at

the faces, I could indeed tell that this was the same guy. I needed to know more about how he did it. So I reached out, David sent me his book, it's called Out There, A Story of Ultra Recovery. And to say that I was amazed by what this man has endured, overcome, achieved, and the astounding extent to which he had transformed his life would be a complete understatement. After reading the first page of his book, I just identified so completely, and I knew that I had to have him on the show. David's is the story of a man who never had a chance to find out who he was. Growing up in the heart of circumstances, homeless, without any formal education, he traveled the country in his father's pickup truck.

He's a kid who grew up no stranger to the hard knocks of life. And his story is the detailed, at times quite painful, personal account of what it's like to be obese, what it's like to live as an addict, live as an alcoholic, just how lonely and painful that is. Spiraling towards death, spending years eating recklessly, drinking and drugging himself and growing farther and farther away from everybody around him. Until one day he woke up and a thought occurred to him. If I don't change today, I will die. If I don't change today, I will die. Ultimately, Dave had enough. Pulling from deep reserves, he found the wherewithal to face and overcome his demons

and transformed his life wholesale, accomplishing what most sane people would deem impossible, recovering from a death sentence addiction to drugs and alcohol that destroyed his career, destroyed his family, and nearly his life until he hit rock bottom. A lifelong addiction to unhealthy foods and lifestyle habits to discover a healthier way of living, hand in hand with a passion for running.

David's journey is a journey that led him to not only drop 150 pounds, not only complete a half marathon, not only complete a marathon, and not only complete the Badwater 135, but a whole slew of impressive ultra marathons, including a stab at a treadmill run world record. It's extraordinary. And amazingly, David today is a loving father of three. He's a running coach. He's a sponsored runner. He's a public speaker and he's a gym owner. And he dedicates his time to sharing the story of how we can all change everything about ourselves if we want to badly enough. Today, I'm so pleased to give Dave a well-deserved microphone to serve this end.

I assure you that his extraordinary tale is well worth your precious time this week. So how did he do it? Well, let's find out. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life.

And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem. A problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com, who created an online support portal designed to guide, support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs. They've partnered with the best global behavioral health providers to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, I feel you.

I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety.

And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because, unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem. A problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs. They've partnered with the best global behavioral health providers to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions,

and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options feel you. I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for

you. Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. What have you been doing since you've been in LA? I've just been kind of hanging out a little bit. I got a chance to go down and meet some folks at a running store, Front Runners, and do a group run there. The one in Brentwood? Yeah. Oh, no. Actually, I showed up at the one in Brentwood, but I was supposed to be at the one

in West Hollywood. I ended up making it to the right one, though, and got to talk about my book a little bit. Oh, that's cool. Do you have a nice turnout of people? Or what was it? Usually those things like, whenever I do that kind of stuff, like five people show up. You know, yeah, I've had both spectrums of the experience, you know, the five and the 50. This one was like, I think there's like 20 people there. It's pretty good turnout. Oh, that's cool. Did you do a run also? Or you just talk about the book? No, we did a run and I got a hundred miler coming up this Saturday. So I was supposed to do a nice little taper run and it turned into be like a five mile race.

Uh-huh. Yeah. Usually, uh, that's what always happens when I do the group runs. Like, uh, a lot of people that don't, you know, they're not ultra runners, so they run a lot faster than I run when I'm training. I always get intimidated. Yeah. You know? Yeah, I think it was just because, like, you know, I don't know, some guy, no one knows who he is, shows up from Colorado,

so everyone wants to just kind of flex and test. Yeah, here comes Scott Jurek, right, you know? Yeah, and it's hard to not just you get caught up in it and you end up running fast of course feels good what's the uh hundred miler you're getting ready for i'm gonna go out to javelina uh-huh yeah down in arizona nice man that should be good yeah have you done so what races have you done since bad water 2013 um well i did bad water this year oh you did i didn't Well, actually, it did me. But yeah, I got, I had, last year was just such a dream come true to get a chance to line up out there and to do it

and finish it. And then this year, even with the new course, I wanted to go out and see if I could test myself a little bit against it. And I went out a bit aggressively. Oh, you did, huh? Yeah. Got a little ahead of yourself. I seem to learn the same lessons over and over again in life. Yeah. Well, I could tell from reading your sobriety story, it's not a linear trajectory for you, nor is it for me, but nor is it for most people. Yeah, that's true. I was with, I just got back. I was up in the Bay Area for a week. And yesterday afternoon, I did a podcast with Dean Karnazes, who gave you a wonderful blurb for your book, by the way. Yeah. And we were talking about Badwater.

And he's like, man, I just can't figure that race out. Like some years I go in, I think I have it totally dialed and it kicks my butt. And other years I feel like it's not going to go well. And then I have my best year. So he's like, I can't crack that nut. Yeah. It's, that's tough. Certainly he knows a hell of a lot more than I know about that kind of stuff, but I've experienced the same thing. I mean, I was, I was fitter and in better shape and I think even more prepared mentally, um, than I ever was. But, um, you know, that's the way ultras go though it is it's humbling it'll

it'll smack you down that's sport you know i think it's a sport in general and uh yeah i mean one of the things we were we were talking about yesterday as well is is the importance of failure not just the willingness to fail but the failure itself because that's the place from which you can learn and grow like if you had a great race, then what do you take away from that? Better than I was last year? That's so true. I mean, it's good for the ego, right? You go throw down a PR and you have a good day, but I don't remember ever saying, wow, everything went great and I learned so much. It usually happens when everything goes really, really bad. That's when you learn you're right. Absolutely.

I'm like a good, stubborn alcoholic. Yeah. You know what I mean? How has the process of kind of getting the book out there been for you? You know, it's been incredible in every possible way. And, you know, the finish line for me was always finishing the book, writing it, you know. And I never really looked very much beyond that. So everything that's happened since then over the last couple of months has been, you know,

definitely something that I hadn't anticipated and hadn't spent a lot of time thinking about. So, but I, I've been very blessed as usual to have some guys like Dean, you know, endorse a book and Marshall all right to write the forward. So that's definitely helped, you know, get my foot in the door a few places. Yeah, you got some big— Like the Rich Roll podcast. You got Tim O'Donnell, too, gave you a blur.

Marshall wrote the foreword. So you're in good company with those guys, right? Yeah. A blessing living in Boulder, too. Of course, right? You throw a rock, and you hit a training partner. That's right, right. I always say that in Boulder, if you tell everyone you did an Ironman, they won't be impressed.

They'll just ask you what your bike split was. I'd be scared to live there. Too many super fit athletes. Yeah. How long have you lived there? I've been in Colorado for about 20 years. Right, but most of that was not in Boulder, right? No, mostly in the Denver metro area.

And I still live outside of Boulder in Lafayette. I live about eight miles outside. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. But do you find people in Boulder to train with or are you like a solo guy when it comes to training? You know, I'm not surprisingly a man of extremes when it comes to that.

Shocking. Yeah. But I can spend a lot of time just running by myself and running by myself and, and, and I can be very social too. You know, I like, I like it all. Yeah. I like to be out there in my own head and stuff. And also it's good to just, you know, I've definitely benefited greatly from being able to run with guys and girls a lot stronger than me. Yeah.

It's a, that's, that's, what's great about that community. You know, I still, you know, I keep telling my wife, I'm like, let's go live in Boulder for a summer, just for a summer. I'm sure I would get just epic training in. I'm more of a lone wolf though. I like to go out by myself, get the quiet time away from the kids and everything, but it's good to mix it up with the company, I think. Let's play a little game that I know you know well. It's called What It Was Like, What Happened, and What It's Like Now. You know that game, right? Yeah. Well, What It Was Like, man, that's tough. It was pretty bad. It got really, really dark and really, really ugly. And, you know, I just kind of, you know, created this place for myself where, you know, this whole image of who I was.

And, of course, you know, I found a way to put alcohol and using in the middle of that identity. And so it never seemed odd, you know, to be in that place. never seemed odd, you know, to be in that place. And I had, you know, I had like all of us a tough childhood and a lot of things that were, you know, disturbing me in there. And I was running away from it. And, you know, at first it was chasing the kind of the concept of normalcy, you know, and just wanting to feel attached to society and owning a home, which seemed really almost impossible to me at one point in my life. And then starting a business and being successful in that and all these things I was chasing just never really made me happy, you know.

So I tried to silence, you know, those guiding voices, if you will, from the outside in. And, you know, as I did that and as I went along, my chemical abuse, my substance abuse, it just got darker and darker. And it went from partying and having fun and goofing off to, you know, just sitting by myself, you know, in the dark and at night and drinking. And it's funny, it's like all these things that I used as, you know, levels or barometers to gauge my drinking and how I was normal. Well, at least I'm not drinking in the morning. At least I'm not, you know, waking up in the bushes somewhere, you know, and one by one, all those things kind of ticked off. Like, well, yeah, but you know, there's always somebody lower. There is, I mean, and you could you can

spin that wheel forever. And, you know, I found, I found reading, you know, that aspect of your story to be, you know, really profound for me. I mean, I emotionally related with it completely. You know, the circumstances of some of your story is very different from mine, but it's the same story, you know. And what really touched me the most was how you described the sort of, uh, you know, the drinking and isolation. You know, I think that's something that a lot of people can't really grasp. I think a normal person will read these stories in your book and they'll think that, you know, I don't, I can't, you know, how does somebody do that? Like, I don't understand, you know, and I'm reading and I'm right with you, you know, it's like, you know, I couldn't wait to

get home from the party so that I could really start my drinking, you know, so I could, that's when the good drinking starts, you know, and, and all the kind of, um, shame that comes with that. And, you know, that, that progressive withdrawal from society. And, you know, as you sink down, then you're, you start surrounding yourself with lower companions, but you always surround yourself with the other people that are doing the kind of same thing that you're doing. So you never have like an objective mirror to reflect the reality of your behavior. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. It's funny because, I mean, how could you expect someone who's never been there to understand when even going back and reading it and reliving it?

I go, how the hell did I not know that I was just totally out of control? But you did know. I mean, you knew when you were 13. You knew on some unconscious level that this was probably going to be a problem down the line. And I remember sort of harboring that kind of semi-conscious thought. Like you're not really aware, like, oh, I'm an alcoholic. But you have that little tickle, like early on where you're like, yeah, this might not alcoholic, but you have that little tickle like early on where you're like, yeah, this might not go so well. No, you're right. It wasn't so much as not knowing is like,

just how could I not, you know, be actively aware of how destructive it was. But no, you're so right. No, I always knew that what I was doing wasn't exactly normal. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. You know, drink when it's good, drink when it's bad. And what's also interesting is that, you know, in the midst of like a pretty insane drinking career, you're still able to like put together this amazing business and succeed and make tons of money. I mean, you must be an unbelievable salesman. Because, you know, I think the kind of outsider perspective would be if you're drinking like that, there's no way you can function. But the alcoholic is a very resourceful individual, you know, very scrappy.

And I thought it was very interesting how you described how you were able to kind of keep all the plates spinning for as long as you did. Yeah, I think that the picture that a lot of people have of the alcoholic is woefully inaccurate or inaccurate. Like you said, it's not the bum sitting on the street corner drinking and sitting around in his own filth, although we can all end up there if we stay on long enough. It's heading that way. the guy that's, you know, doing a pretty reasonable job at creating an illusion of what his life looks like, you know, and getting farther and farther away from that illusion as he goes, you know, deeper and deeper in. Right. There's this great disconnect and there's this growing awareness that, yeah, I'm going to, this is, this is a problem. You know, you're getting into trouble all the, I mean, you know, you know, you know that this is not good. You're powerless to stop. And to compensate for that, you go overtime on work and all those other things because you can that helps put the facade up that your life is actually functional.

Yeah. And it gives you, you know, proof that you are OK. You know, it's like, hey, well, at least I'm doing this, you know, and I'm okay, you know. Right. And that kind of feeling of the ego, like there's that episode in the book where you go into that huge pitch meeting, right? And you have, you know, brass balls and, you know, you kind of like throw down the gauntlet on this deal, like in a pretty risky way. And you get what you wanted out of that. So what I took away from that story is sort of this, um, weird thing that I think only the alcoholic can truly understand, which is having this huge ego, like thinking you're, you're more entitled and better than everybody else, but also simultaneously harboring this like horrible shame that you're a piece of shit and you're worse than everybody completely worthless. And, you know,'t even even be breathing air like only the alcoholic can like entertain those two thoughts at the same time yeah the egomaniac with the inferiority complex exactly yeah exactly

yeah and the funny thing is like looking back and reliving it and writing it and you know i think maybe at some point i thought you you know, I was doing a really good job at controlling other people and circumstances and manipulating my environment. But really, it was just me that I was manipulating and controlling. And those other things, you know, those could have happened no matter what, just because, you know, I was creating value in the industry that I was in. And I didn't have to go in and totally try to manipulate and control, but you don't know any other way when you're now, I have to control everything that's going on right now. And it's just, it's obviously it's bullshit. It's impossible. You can't even

control it yourself. How are you going to control everyone else? Right. Let alone controlling 9-11 and then the market crashing and everything that happened to your business as a result, like all of these kinds of things that happened to you, things are progressively being taken away from you. You're holding on stronger and stronger to the drinking, but also developing this awareness that, you know, you're going to have to stop. Yeah. Yeah. It was an interesting time, you know. It would have been really, you know, I've always had this kind of like alarm bell, you know, that can go off. Even when I was falling farther and farther down the hole,

there's all these levels where these alarm bells would go off and I would sense that I was, you know, dropping down another level. And that was certainly one of them. And, you know, it was really tempting and alluring to blame the loss of my business on 9-11 itself and what happened in the economic aftermath. And it was something that I just couldn't really let myself do because I knew it was going to crush me and send me even farther, farther down. So I just tried to move on, you know. Well, playing the victim is always the easy way out. And the alcoholic is no stranger to playing the victim. No, no.

But I thought that your wife showed tremendous, or now your ex-wife, but your wife at the time showed tremendous patience with you. I mean, she had to be just coming unglued while this was going on. Yeah, that's a tough subject. She was. I mean, she was and is an amazing person. She's incredibly patient. But our relationship was very odd and very hard to really put in perspective. We grew apart, no shock there with my behavior over those years. But we never had any arguments about my drinking. There was never that place. It was obviously pushing us apart.

It was obviously creating a lot of damage in our relationship. But it wasn't presenting itself as a problem. It wasn't a topic of conversation. self as a problem. It wasn't a topic of conversation. I think probably if I had to be really honest, it was because she was afraid of engaging me in the debate because, you know, I'm a reasonably good debater, especially when drunk and passionate. And I think she just had to step back and try to let me figure it out. And she's amazing. And we're still really good friends today. But yeah, she's something else. Yeah. I think that the most heart-wrenching part of the book for me was the night that you stay up on Christmas Eve drinking super late and you're just out of your

mind. And then you realize like you haven't wrapped these presents and you know you're just unable to kind of get that job done and and the presents end up with you know masking tape on them or just kind of looking like a mess and and to kind of shame the next morning of of that dawning on you and realizing that i mean i think if there was ever a moment where your wife would be like i can't i can't you know i't have this anymore. That would have been it. Yeah. You know, it's funny, like of all the, you know how it is, like when you, when you go about, you know, when, when I started to write the book, I made a deal with myself that I wasn't going to hold anything back that I thought would be too embarrassing or, you know, things I wrote about it, like, you know, driving drunk and stuff like that. I didn't want to put that in there because I didn't want, I know the stigma that's

attached to that and I didn't want people chasing after me, but I was like, you know, I'm going to put what's in there and then if it's too much, I just won't release the book, but I'll have a accurate product when I'm done. And so you go through all these moments, these low moments, you know, and, and I chose a handful of thousands, you know, and I tend to choose the ones that were, for whatever reason, I was present enough at that time to, to remember it. But the reality is most of them I didn't remember. And I had no idea what happened the night before. But of all the things that I talked about in the book, the other addicts that I talked to always point out the Christmas present story story and not some of the

other ones like, you know, it's that one. And I think because we've all just been in that place where you're so drunk, you're so out of it that you can't do this stupidly easy task and your brain knows you should be able to do it. and it becomes more and more frustrating and more and more shameful and humiliating and everything all wrapped into one. And if I could – if I would have written the story as a script, that would have been my low. That would have been the moment that I rose up from the ashes and created a new life because I don't know that I've ever felt less of a human being than I did that Christmas morning, but I kept going. Well, you know, I think it, it, it highlights, well, there's, there's this idea that the alcoholic will harbor that, you know, hey, leave me alone. I'm just, you know, I'm, I'm allowed to do what I want to myself. I'm not

hurting anybody. I'm just trying, you know, but that episode really sort of punctuates, you know, the fact that there are other people involved in particular, like young children on a very important day, which I think elevates the emotional kind of impact of something like that. But, you know, I related to, I related to the emotions completely. And, and I related to the kind of, you know, rollercoaster ride of saying, yeah, I got to the emotions completely. And I related to the kind of, you know, roller coaster ride of saying, yeah, I got to get my life together. It's time to get sober. And then just not being able to do it. Or that memory so quickly fading and then you're back to doing what you're always doing. And how long it took before, you know, I was really able to get to that place to really surrender and be willing to accept help and do the work.

But my lowest moment was a year and a half before I got sober. And if I was writing the narrative in the movie script, that would have been the moment. But that's not the way it works. That's not the way it works. You're ready when you're ready, and it doesn't always make sense, and it's not always logical. And then, you know, that's not the way it works. You're ready when you're ready and it doesn't always make sense and it's not always logical. And then, you know, absolutely right. And then there's that other aspect too, that I think like a lot of my friends who haven't dealt with addiction in their own lives think that, you know, my sobriety date was August 5th in 2005. And that they think that maybe if it wouldn't have been that day, it would have been August 10th or maybe in September.

But I was, you know, that everything was pushing towards that point. But, you know, the reality is that if I wouldn't have jumped off then, I could still be there now. You might be drinking now. Yeah. Or you might be dead. Yeah. Yeah. It's those little cracks in the door, those precious moments where you have just the slightest sliver of willingness, you know.

But if you don't act on that, then who knows if that ever, you're ever blessed with that opportunity again, you know, it really is a precious thing. The other thing that I thought was really impactful was, of course, now I just lost my train of thought. I had to do, oh yeah, I know what it was. It's this idea that, you know, the alcoholic is always trying to solve the problem with their mind, but they're not aware that their mind is being poisoned by chemicals, right? So your perception of the world is altered

and you're trying to solve a problem from a place that's not healthy, you know, but you don't have the objectivity to see that because everything you're processing, everything that you're taking in through your eyes and your ears is going through this machine that is broken. Yeah. Right. to have any objectivity on the reality of your situation, which makes it all the more crucial. Like, you know, in recovery, you hear about surrender, you hear about that willingness to ask for help. And, you know, without the intervention of a third party to kind of come into that equation, it's extremely difficult. It's like a miracle that anybody ever gets sober. Yeah, absolutely. Like you abusing your brain over and over again and killing your brain cells and then trying to use your warped brain to convince yourself to not keep drinking.

It is an absolute miracle. And we all know, those of us that have made it out, that we got lucky. You know, we just, I don't know why, but why it happened on that day, but it did. We just, I don't know why, but why it happened on that day, but it did. And, you know, along with that comes a huge sense of gratitude, you know, and a huge sense of just, you know, bewilderment. You know, I mean, you look at it and you're like, I don't know how I ever, I don't know how I ever got that low and I don't know how the hell I ever got out. The other thing that I loved was how you describe sleep and the lack thereof. And I don't hear that really discussed that often. But for me, like I can remember so vividly, like I never just slept. Either I passed out or I was tossing and turning with bedspins and throwing up

or trying to go a couple of days without drinking and the sleepless nights that accompany that are some of the most painful nights I've ever had, like the hallucinations and the, you know, the sweating and the sheets and just never, ever being able to just get a legitimate night of sleep without being altered. Yeah. There comes this like crazy time warp, right? Where you feel like you don't have enough time to adequately abuse and worship your drug. And you don't ever just retire for the evening. You just run out of time. Or your body just shuts you down before you get to wherever it is you're searching for. And yeah, it's, it's like you said, there's no sleep. There's no like, okay,

the night's over and now I've had my fill and I'm going to, you know, just go in and go to sleep. When I watch movies and TV and I see people like drinking and then they just go home and go to bed, I'm like, how does that work? Yeah. Even my friends are out there and they get home at 2 a.m. and go to bed. Yeah. I don't understand how that works at all. I have to drink enough until I completely black out to go to sleep. The last thing I would do, no matter if it was three o'clock in the morning or what time it was and how much I had to drink is I would pour, I would take like a rocks glass or a juice glass and just fill it full of 90 proof something and carry it up to bed with me. And I'm not going to feel any benefit or effect of that. It was more of a possession thing. I just needed to have it with me. And half the time I didn't

even drink it. I'd go and set it down in the nightstand next to me and I could sleep because I knew it was there, but it was nonstop drink until the moment that consciousness left. And I was so aware of, and I talked about in the book, of that first time when I just slept. Right. It's a miracle. Yeah. Like when you're like, oh my God. I have never done this since I was like 12. I didn't know what this was. Yeah, that was very palpable, the way you described that. I mean, when you go out and like yesterday, when you talk to people or, you know, you kind of interact with people that have read the book, you know, normal people, non-alcoholics, non-addicts. I mean, what is their reaction to reading, you know, the kind of drunk log aspect of the book? You know, it's a mixed bag, but I think, you know, it's the one thing I hear a lot is I'm glad you're still alive.

The one thing I hear a lot is, I'm glad you're still alive. And it's an interesting thing to hear from people, especially people that don't know you and have never met you. And it's quite common. And it just drives home that point of looking from the outside in how destructive and how terrible that behavior was. outside in how destructive and how terrible that behavior was. And I think one of the most surprising things that's come out of this, you know, I kind of expected that just very much in the same way when I read your book, I knew where you were, you know, and it triggered that those emotions in me and I could feel like the weight of the glass you were holding or the thoughts that you were thinking. Um, I expected the book to, to reach other people who'd been in similar circumstances, but what I haven't expected or didn't expect was some of the family members. And, um, I had a lady, I would recently ran a road marathon in, in, uh, Leadville and a lady

came out to the finish line. I was waiting for me to finish. And she wanted to tell me about her son who had just passed away. And, uh, he had a, uh, OD'd on heroin and he was 26 years old. And she just wanted to tell me that the book reading it gave her some insight as to what her son might've been feeling and what he might've been thinking. Cause from the outside in, a lot of people just think it's, you know, indulgent, you know, behavior. And it's, and it is, and it is, it's, it's selfish and it's indulgent. But, you know, we could talk for hours and hours on whether it's a disease and all these

things that are, that are such hot topics. But the bottom line is once the addict's in, he's in, and it doesn't really matter, you know, how you got there or what happened but um and i had the same exact thing happen um at a gym i own a gym in lafayette and i had someone just show up whose wife had uh had back surgery i talk about my back surgery in the book and she was prescribed a whole trough of narcotics and she got addicted and she overdosed and she died and and it left her family just... Like Oxy or what was it?

I never asked exactly what they had her on. But yeah, I think that... And it's my hope that it continues to go that way and it continues to offer some sort of understanding or peace for people who are trying to figure out why a loved one is so lost and so much struggling. Yeah, I think it accomplishes that. I mean, you did a very deft job of describing the powerlessness and the desperation, the desire

to change, but, you know, the inability to, and the shame that accompanies that, because I think if you, if you don't, you know, if you haven't had a close encounter with somebody who's struggling with this disease or condition, however you want to qualify it, it's, it is easy to go like, why can't they just snap out of it? Like, what's, I don't get it, you know, just stop. But it's so much more complicated than that. And you really painted this pastiche of the emotional landscape that accompanies it. And it was painful to read, but I also, I'm like, yeah, I'm right there with you.

But I remember very, very vividly going to see that movie, Leaving Las Vegas with a buddy of mine. And I'm just watching Nicolas Cage do his thing. And I'm like, yeah, man, let's do it. Like, it looks like a good time to me. Like, I'm like, yep, I'll do that too. Yeah. I could see, yeah, I could see why he'd make that decision. You know, like my friend is just horrified at the whole thing, you know? And I was like, oh yeah. Like, and this was before I got sober, you know, it was very evident, like, oh, I think differently, you know, I'm seeing the world through a different lens.

Yeah. Did you watch flight? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. My, uh, my friend, John Gatins wrote that book. Oh, I mean, wrote that script and, you know, he's a friend that I know from recovery, obviously. I mean, he's writing that from probably based, you know, on some of his own experiences, but in very, very powerful, you know, People think it's about an airplane crash. No, this is an incredibly potent story about what it's like to be an alcoholic, a story very well told. Yeah, I was honestly one of those people. I was absolutely blindsided by the movie.

I went with a friend, and I was expecting a movie about it. No, I had no idea. And I had tears spilling out of my eyes, rolling down my cheeks the whole time. I was, it was, it was very emotional. And I think they did a really good job at showing that, you know, it's not a matter of what you're going to do. You know, you're going to drink, it's going to happen. It's just a matter of whatever, what you're doing at the same time. Right, right, right. And also the way that you describe kind of your trigger situations, like that first time you had to go to the airport, you know, and what airports represented for you. I mean, for me, it's like hotels or like going to a foreign city where no one knows me, you know, and you like work, you know, recovery work that has to go into getting ready to, you know,

walk through a scenario that you're so programmed to drink or use and is, you know, is challenging. And like just, you know, just reading you, feeling you like going into that airport and the guys that you're with are at the bar, and they're encouraging you to drink. It's so brutal. I honestly have no idea how I made it through that first two weeks. Of all the times that I had everything perfectly aligned for me to get clean and I didn't do it. I had the time. I had the time away from work.

I had no stress. I had all these things, and it just didn't matter. I had the time. I had the time away from work. I had no stress. I had all these things, and it just didn't matter. And then once I finally did make the decision, everything kind of aligned to screw me up and knock me off track, and it just didn't matter at that point. But that's the way it works. It reminded me of the story in the big book where Bill W. is newly sober, and he has to go out of town.

And he's in this hotel, and he's so close to drinking. And he just goes to that pay phone and calls the hospital and says do you have any alcoholics you know that i can go talk to right and that saves him and he's like if that pay phone wasn't there he was a goner you know and it's funny because like i'm talking to to family members and stuff who are just really struggling and in the whole enabling addicts and stuff like that is something that is just so hard and and occupies so much of my time in talking to other people. And I'm dealing with it right now with my own brother.

Yeah, I wanted to get into that a little bit. And, you know, you have to be there for them and you have to love them. But the point being that once the alcoholic truly makes up their mind that they're done and it's real, ain't nothing going to stop. So we have this tendency that the family members are like, oh, if I say the wrong thing, if I do the wrong thing, if I look at it the wrong way, it's going to screw it all up. And the reality is, no, no, there's nothing you can do to make him use. He's going to do that all by himself. And there's nothing you can do to get him better. Once he makes up his mind, he'll need support, he'll need help, he'll need all these things, but nothing's going to stop him.

You know, that has to come from inside. So your brother is out there still. He is, he is an older, older brother, right? Younger brother. Oh, younger. Oh, 10 years younger. I have, I have three brothers. I have one older and two, two younger. And, uh, two of us have the addiction demons chasing us around and two of us don't. So go figure. And so of us have the addiction demons chasing us around and two of us don't. So go figure. And so how do you navigate that? Like what is your communication like, if any?

Like for somebody who's out there listening, who's dealing with the same thing as a family member. It's fucked up, man. I mean, it's really hard because I hear my own advice echoing in my ear and I know it's right because other people have told me it. And it's just part of the truths of addiction. But I feel the same thing other people feel. I want to, you know, help him out, you know, and I want to believe, you know, that, you know, I can send him 20 bucks and he's not going to buy heroin with it.

You know, that, you know, all those same things. But I know I can send him $20 and he's not going to buy heroin with it. All those same things, but I know I can't. But honestly, it's almost like you would think that being an addict would give you a certain amount of insight in helping another addict, and that's true. But really, it's almost unrelated. I feel like what I'm going through as a family member trying to help my brother is almost entirely unrelated to what I went through as an addict myself. It allows me a window to understand what he's thinking and to have some empathy. But it's such a difficult experience. And it's up there with one of the toughest things I've ever gone through in my entire life. Yeah.

Well, that's interesting that you say that because the cornerstone of recovery is one alcoholic talking to another. And certainly you've endured enough to be able to have common ground with your brother to have that dialogue. But what you can't do is gift him with the willingness that's required for him to even listen to you, let alone take action on anything that you're telling him. Yeah, and absolutely true. And maybe I should be a little more clear. It's like I don't, in dealing with just me and another alcoholic, it's an entirely different dynamic in me dealing with my brother because I'm feeling that emotional component. The familial bond and all of that.

Yeah, and that's definitely clouds it and makes it really hard. And it's given me a whole new way to understand what the family members are going through with their loved ones. Because it's real easy to just be in that sponsor role and say, well, yeah, I know what your problem is. You haven't screwed up your life enough yet. It's not bad enough for you yet. As soon as it gets bad. You need to go out and drink a little more. Right. To do that with your brother is really hard. life enough yet. It's not bad enough for you yet. As soon as it gets bad... You need to go out and drink a little more.

To do that with your brother is really hard. Especially when they're calling and they're saying, I'm going to be on the street. Can you take me in? And all this stuff. And you're thinking, if I don't, then any dies or something happens, I have to carry that with me. You can't be that dispassionate sounding board.

You're dealing with other people at an arm's length. You're like, here's what you do. Do it or don't. I'm not attached to it. Here's the solution. And then you're not thinking about it the rest of the day. Yeah. And it's been a process because that's kind of where we are now.

That's kind of the way it's had to go. And so our relationship isn't real good right now, you know. And so our relationship isn't real good right now, you know, but I was just telling my mom that, you know, he's got to be the architect of his own recovery. And when that happens, there's nothing we won't do to help him. But I can't tell him how. I mean, I can tell him how I did it. I can share with him how I did it. I can tell him what I thought, what I felt and point him in the right direction. But ultimately, you know, the's the truth comes from within.

Right. It's it's not something we find from the outside and bring into our lives. It's it's something that was always there that we just kind of discover. Yeah. And I think that it's important for family members out there who are who are dealing with this to understand that that's very different from trying to cajole a family member into getting sober to get you off their back. That's not willingness. That's a temporary band-aid that will not hold ultimately. I mean, of course, there's the occasion where you do an intervention and somebody begrudgingly goes into rehab and then they get it when they're in there. But the more typical case is it doesn't stick because they're not ready. Because it's not being driven by their own desire.

It's being driven by the fear and the love of family members who are desperate. Yeah. Yeah. So it's complicated. It's hard, man. It is. I mean, we're crazy creatures. So what was that moment in August that tipped the scale for you?

You know, it was just, I think it was, we kind of talked about before, you know, alarm bells, you know, and I kind of was aware of each time my drinking and my use was going to a new level of destruction. And that morning, there was just something really heavy about it. And I think that that was going to be a significant day for me one way or the other. And I think I was going to either entirely give up and just go, go about the process of, of ending it, you know, maybe slowly, maybe quickly, or I was going to stand up and start to fight. And, um, and I just felt like I had that, that one,

one, one shot, that one little glimpse. And I just jumped on before I could think about it. I've related it to jumping out of a car, you know, like I was driving in a car and I thought I was driving the car and taking it to all these nice places. And one day I realized I was in the passenger side and I had no control over where the car was going. And I kind of hung out there for a while, too. And it's like, okay, well, I'll just see where this thing's going. And then that day I just opened the door and I jumped out before I could even think about it. That day I just opened the door and I jumped out before I could even think about it. Like all the times I tried to, you know, wrap it into this perfect thing that made sense and, you know, wrestle every demon down to a perfectly, you know, understandable thing.

And it never worked, obviously. So I had to trust the process. And, you know, it's kind of just like talking about running 100 miles or something like that. You know, it's kind of just like talking about running 100 miles or something like that. You can't get to that place where you're doing some run and trying to convince yourself why it's a good idea because it's not a good idea. Right, right. You just got to run. And that's what I did with the recovery. I just took the moment and kept moving forward.

Right. And, you know, what you learn in recovery is that you're always in the passenger seat ultimately. And it's when you think that you're in the driver's seat or you try to take the wheel that you end up veering off into the wrong direction. And that's a, you know, kind of an ephemeral idea that we could spend hours talking about. But just that's part of the surrender of realizing, like, not only am I not in control, like there are very few things that I actually can control. One of them is whether I drink or not today, but most things, you know, are pretty much beyond my reach. And it's interesting that, that the day that you had that moment was not, you know, after a car wreck or being put in jail. I mean, it was similar with me. Like it was a really uneventful morning, like in terms of like events that had happened to me you know nothing you know i was hung over but it wasn't on the heels of anything super

traumatic but there was just it was different you know i woke up and i was like i'm gonna die i'm ready yeah like i'm ready or or or yeah there's no turning back. It was very inexplicable. It wasn't unicorns and rainbows and angels, but I still would qualify it as a spiritual experience. No doubt. Because it came out of nowhere. It wasn't triggered by any particular event. It was triggered by the accumulation of many years and terrible things, but that little gift of willingness

just sort of materialized. It's funny because I asked for help that day, and I probably asked for help before, but it was always just some sort of exercise and melodrama, you know, and wanting to be pitied more than anything. Alcoholics are good at that. Oh, yeah.

But I meant it. I meant it that time. I felt that the realness that I was not able to do this anymore. And I was totally powerless, you know. I was in over my head. I was getting my ass kicked and it wasn't going to get any better. And I felt myself giving up. I think that was the most scary thing is I felt myself like I always kind of had a little bit of fight.

You know, I'm going to figure this out one day. And I always had a vision that, you know, there would be a big intervention, and they'd send me off to rehab, and I'd come back, and everything would be great. But I felt all of that was gone. You know, I didn't even have any visions of getting better anymore. And I didn't like that feeling. I didn't like the idea of giving up. But you had never been to an AA meeting before.

It wasn't like you had kind of made fits and starts or tried. Oh, no, I'd been to a lot of AA meetings. Oh, you had. Okay. In fact, usually what would happen is I would, there would be one of those bad days, like, that should be your bottom. Right. You know, I'd wake up and not remember where my car was. That's not so bad.

That's every day. No, it really was every day. Or like the time I talked about in the book where I was vomiting out of my truck window driving home. That should have been my last day. I should have said, oh, shit, I didn't kill anybody today. That's good. Let's jump off this roller coaster now. But I totally lost my train of thought.

Going into AA and this and starts. I would have one of those mornings and I would wake up and I'd go to AA that night and I'd go, see, I knew it. I don't have a problem. I don't have anything in common with any of these people. These are the guys with the problem. And it was like an affirmation or an excuse to go drink some more. I briefly do talk about it in there where I talked about the time I really

did go to a meeting and I found what I did have in common with all those guys, which is alcohol, obviously, namely. It was the same experience we talked about with sleep. It's like, how could you do something over and over again and never experience it?

And I'd been to probably 15 or 20 AA meetings, and they just never meant anything to me. And I mean, I think I tried to do the 90 and 90 like five or six different times. Oh, you did? Oh, wow. And I think I made three or four days. And then I'd be like, what am I doing? I own a company. This is fucking bullshit.

I was court ordered. So I did it for that reason. And I was just, it was okay. And I was well-intentioned when I went. I was going to get sober. But then it just, I was kind of a tourist. Like, I intellectualized the whole thing. I get it.

I understand. Like, I'm not going to do all this writing stuff down. I don't need to. Like, I can make that list in my head. So I've done that. Yeah, I've done that. On to the next thing. I get it. I understand. I'm not going to do all this writing stuff down. I don't need to. I can make that list in my head. So I've done that. Yeah, I've done that. On to the next thing. I've solved this problem. And of course, that didn't work. But you have to go through all those experiments, I think. And I think a lot of there don't, they don't know that. They don't know how nonlinear the journey to recovery is for, you know, 99% of the people that are sober out there. They think, oh, they go to rehab and they're fine or they go to AA and everything changes or a therapist or whatever, you know, version it is. But it's usually, you know, a lot of, you know, ups and downs and relapses. And, you know, people are always, you know, surprised when somebody relapses.

But that's the natural state of the alcoholic. The miracle is that all those days that they didn't drink, you know, they're like they're wired to drink. You know, we're wired to drink. So every day that you don't is the gift. Absolutely. I just had nine years and it's a good start. It's amazing. Congrats, man.

It's a good start. Yeah, that's fantastic. Congratulations. Very cool. So let's talk about the weight thing. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, you got fat.

I was fat as hell, man. 320 pounds. 320, yeah. Yeah, and I mean... I can't, I mean, looking at you now, it's really hard to picture that. I mean, I saw the pictures in the book, but, you know, you were a big boy. Yeah, I was ultra before I knew it had anything to do with running, man. Eating, drinking, whatever, man.

And it's funny because I have people say to me, you know, isn't all that running bad for your knees? And I always say, you know, waiting in line for my third Big Mac weighing 320 pounds was bad for my knees. But, yeah, I know food was the same thing, you know. I mean, the process was pretty much identical, you know, between what was going on with my weight and what was going on with my drinking. And I didn't think about food as anything other than making me feel good. You know, that's what it was for. And even though I knew better at some intellectually, I knew better. I mean, I could have written it out for you and told you exactly how all this stuff works, but it didn't matter because that's not how I saw food. And it's funny because I talk a little

bit about there and that I had this concept of food and who was thin and who was fat. And I had it all, of course, figured out. I had everything figured out. I knew exactly how everything worked, right? Let me tell you how it is. Standing at 320 pounds and like with a fifth of bourbon. I got this figured out. Well, you know, that's interesting because I remember telling my dad, and you know how it works, like your family members, they want to let you off the hook, right?

They don't want, you know, a lot of times, you know, for the high bottomers, if you will, the ones that didn't end up on the street, you know, especially if you've had a level of success at some point in your life, your family wants to believe, they want to let you off the hook. And they don't want to think you have a problem. And you drink too much, obviously. You need to stop that. But there's nothing wrong with you, you know? Well, that because then it becomes a reflection of them. Yeah. Yeah.

But I told my dad once, I was like, you know, I used to have this concept of like, well, yeah, I'm overweight. And yeah, I drink too much. But other than that, I got life figured out. Right. And I'm like, I realized the stupidity and the insanity of that now. And I like to say I wasn't overweight. I wasn't an alcoholic.

I was broken. I was a broken human being. The food, the alcohol, that was a symptom. I didn't know how to live life at all. I had no idea how to live life. I had no idea how to be happy. I had no idea how to sit and just be still. And the food and the drugs and the alcohol was just something I could do in the meantime because I couldn't be still. Yeah, that's the other thing that I think

a lot of people aren't really fully in touch with, that alcohol is the solution for the alcoholic until it's the problem. And the alcohol and the effects of alcohol on the alcoholic are a symptomatic manifestation of a disease that's really kind of a spiritual malady. It's like there's something wrong with this person. Drinking alcohol or taking drugs solves that temporarily until it stops working. Drugs solves that temporarily until it stops working. And the drive to use is the kind of confused path, you know, of the diseased individual to solve this problem because they don't have any other answer. And recovery is about, you know, blazing this frightening trail of trying to repair this broken soul. You know, that's what it really is.

Absolutely. And, you know, the running and the journey that you've been on, I mean, those are kind of outward manifestations of this path towards healing, this path towards wholeness, this path towards self-knowledge, self-understanding of putting those pieces back together. Yeah, yeah, undoubtedly. And that's what I see. I mean, I'm sure a lot of people are like, well, the running,

you just transferred all your addiction to the running. So, all right, what's your take? So many times I have people in recovery who have become ultra athletes. So I have to ask the question. I had Charlie Engel on, we talked about, you know, like it's gonna come up. So I'm interested,

everybody has a different answer to the question. So how do you- did I trade addictions? Yeah, that one, that one, you know, I get that one. That's the one I get. That's the second most popular with me. The first one is where do you get your protein? Right. Well, yeah. You know, um, first of all, um, as you know, First of all, as you know, addiction has a huge destructive component to it. You know, you can't be addicted to loving your children. You can't be addicted to, you know, trying to be more spiritual in your life. You can't be addicted to anything that is overall improving the quality of your life and making you a better human being. Can you be addicted to running?

Sure. I think that's that point is when it transfers over, you know, is when is it becoming destructive? When are you engaging in the behavior compulsively despite all these negative consequences? I tried to switch addictions a million times. In fact, it was my preferred method of trying to find sobriety, right? I'd go, you know what?

I'm going to become an outdoorsman, you know, and I'm going to give up drinking and I'm just going to go fly fishing and I'm going to go camping and I'm going to go to Alaska or I'm going to go to the gym. And I'm going to, I tried working out and all that stuff. Or moving cities, pulling a geographic. I tried running. I tried to switch my addictions to running. And I always kind of wanted to be that runner person. It was appealing to me for whatever reason. But as you know, that was just changing the symptoms. I may as well have been trying to switch from beer to wine or from whiskey to cigarettes. I mean, it just didn't matter. It wasn't going to work that way. When I finally addressed the spiritual problems, what was causing me to live this way, and once I had to tackle some

of those issues, I had this tremendous amount of mental energy and time available to me that I could have chosen to do anything with. I could have chosen to write music or poetry or go camping or go running, and that's what I chose. But it was very much after the fact. And that's the only way it would have ever lasted for me. Because I could go to the gym, you know, how many times have I sat on a piece of equipment at the gym reeking of alcohol, you know, and still smelling like Big Macs because I vomited when I woke up in the morning. And that's real. And that wasn't going to work. Yeah. It was never going to work. I have to remain diligent in my sobriety to remember that training is not the same thing

as tending to my sobriety. Like going out and riding my bike and running, no matter how long that run is, that does not take the place of actually working a program of recovery because that's what I forget. I don't know what I mean. I think I'm fine now. Like, and now as I go get my meditation when I'm running, like, no, that's, that's not, that's not it. That is not the solution. The minute I start to think about that is when I start to regress back and move towards that relapse. Start feeling some of those old behaviors. Yeah. You know, running, triathlon, all these things, they can be, you know, they can become addictions. You hear about the Ironman widow, you know, or like, you know, when it starts to be this

thing that someone escapes into because they're not happy with their life or they're avoiding other things in their life, then I think you have to have a hard discussion about what the addictive aspect of it is or what it is that you're running away from. But as Mishka Shibali said on the podcast, he's like, running is hard, drinking is easy. Yeah, that's profound. He's like, I don't want to get out of bed and go run, but I always want to go to the bar. Right. And so I think that's something to

think about as well. But I think running is really this platform of self-discovery, you know, and that's, that's what I found. And, And from reading your book, I mean, that's clearly, I think, you know, I gather that that's your approach to it. It is very much so. And I also, you know, I think that we were talking earlier about, you know, that feeling of being lucky, you know, that why was that moment the moment? And once we arrive at that moment, and once I was there, and I put forth this journey of figuring out who I was and trying to trust the process and allow myself some time to heal while I was trying to figure these things out, it took a tremendous amount of faith and discipline

and trust and all these other things that fit into running nicely. And, you know, when I'm in a hundred mile race, you know, and there's always going to be a moment for me, I hear other people say, oh, I never wanted to quit. Never once. I'm like, well, good for you, man. Cause when I'm out there, I want to quit all the time. And to be able to access that place where everything is uncomfortable, everything sucks, and there's an easy way out, and you don't take it, is very valuable. And it brings me back to that place in my early days of sobriety. And it actually gives me that feeling that, you know, I'm going to be okay, as long as I can continue to identify those things in myself and realize that I'm not just um, I'm not just a victim of the moment that

there is a choice in the moment. What do you think it is about discomfort or, or, you know, that willingness to, um, you know, go beyond, uh, the self-imagined limits of your capabilities that is so important to this idea or this feeling of being alive? You know, I can answer it for me, you know, and I think that discomfort is a huge part of the addict's problem is that, you know, life can be uncomfortable. Just the normal living of life is uncomfortable. We do all kinds of things we don't want to do, you know, whether it's following up with customer calls or, you know, doing things. That's part of life. And the addict has nothing to do with that, right? I'm not going to be uncomfortable in my life. There's no such thing I'm going to use if I'm uncomfortable. I'm going to use if I have a second that's, you

know, that's available to me. And so I think being in that uncomfortable place is a thing that most people are okay with and addicts aren't. So I think that for me, it appeals to me in that place that to be not just to be able to deal with discomfort, but to deal with it on a big level, you know, is empowering in a way. And it's an affirmation of life and of recovery and of sobriety. Yeah, well put. I think that being ultra sensitive, to continue to use the word ultra in every context possible. I know, I'm sorry I do that.

Yeah, I think in general, addicts and alcoholics tend to be people that, that not everybody, but I think it's fair to make a generalization that they tend to be sensitive people. And, you know, when you're talking about when you were a kid and being kind of ultra, uh, said it again, um, you know, compassionate towards some other kid that you thought was having a hard time, that heightens everything, right? So as you grow older, that becomes more painful or more difficult to bear. And then it's the easy choice to use to numb that. And then you get sober and suddenly you're just, your emotions are charging, you know, firing in all different directions, and you have no skills for how to manage that. And you honestly think that these emotional impulses that you're experiencing are going to kill you.

It feels like you're going to die. No, that's perfect. Absolutely. covering is learning how to manage your emotions because your coping mechanism gets shut off when you start your drinking career or you're using career. And so you've got, you know, whenever you started your career, 13, whatever it is, and until, you know, 33, right? 33. So you're a 33-year-old man and you have the emotional maturity of a 13-year-old. Yeah. And then, and you're in the world, right? And you have responsibilities and, you know, that leads to panic attacks and freak outs and all sorts of things that, you know, without really having a solid foundation for sobriety, you're going to return to using

ultimately. Yeah. I mean, that's the perfect analogy. And, you know, we, we all see those, you know, kids that can't cope and they're throwing tantrums and are doing all this. And that's, that's like our behavior. That's the addict right there. That's a stereotypical addict. I can't have it my way. You know, I'm going to freak out and take everybody down with me. Yeah. What I always hear, uh, is, uh, emotions are just emotions, man. You can feel them and they change and you'll get to the other side of it. They will not kill you.

So I have to think, it's not going to kill me. It's not going to kill me. And in some sense, the pain of running an ultra is much more tolerable than some of the emotional pain that I've experienced. Yeah. Physical pain is a lot easier to deal with. And I think that's ultimately what happens in ultra, is that you have to learn to divide physical pain from mental pain or emotional pain. Because you have what's going on in your legs, which is actually kind of the smallest part

of it. It's the emotion and the meaning your mind's putting into that and telling you, hey, this could all be over really quick. You're probably injured. You need to sit down and you need to go on. This was a bad idea, you know, and being able to separate those exactly like what you said. It's okay. You're okay. You know, just slow it down.

Breathe a second and it's going to be all right. Emotions, there's no such thing as an inappropriate emotion, just inappropriate times to feel them. And I think that's the big thing for me is I never had the emotion and the occasion aligned up to be appropriate. Right. It's the wrong moment. I'm experiencing anger here? Yeah. Well, being able to create that divining line between physical pain and emotional pain, you know, particularly in the context of sport or running an ultra marathon, I mean, that's the keys to the kingdom. You know, when you're talking about a 100-mile run, it's not the physical that's going to bury you. It's the mental, right?

Absolutely. it's not the physical that's going to bury you. It's, it's the mental, right? I mean, as David Goggins famously said, when you think you're done, you've only accomplished about 40% of what you're truly capable of. So it's all about your mental state, your emotional state, you know, your spiritual connection and whatever form that takes that is either going to carry you across that finish line to some kind of triumphant victory or just

bury you. Yeah. My, my take on the cliche, the yogiism about how much of it is mental and how much of it is physical, and there's a thousand of them out there. Mine is it's all mental, even the physical. I'll take it one further. Okay. It's all spiritual. All right, there you go.

I like that too. It's not supposed to be anything, right? Well, it's like, look, I'm going to come off like a woo woo new age guy. But the truth is, like, it's all spiritual journey. You know, all the things that I'm doing, the things that you're doing, we're all born that day that you made that decision to get sober and get in the passenger seat. And it's taken you on this remarkable, amazing journey. Some of which, you know, you've played a small part through the actions that you've taken, but on some level, you know, you're, this is your, this is your path, man. You know, this is, this is, this is your

divinely inspired journey that you're on and it's a beautiful thing to see. So when people say to me, oh, you know, what do you think is your strength and your weakness? And how do you do these things and all that? I'm like, dude, I have no idea. I mean, I can give the flip answer. You know, I can give the five things you can think. I can do all that. But I'm like, the real truth, like the honest truth is, I don't know. Because it's about, it all began when I threw my arms up and said, I don't know what I'm doing. Yeah.

Your weakest moment was your strongest moment. And I think that that's tough, especially for guys. That's tough, especially for guys. We're not reared to say, I don't know, or to say, I need help, or will you help me, or I'm lost. These are not the characteristics of the successful man in Western culture. No doubt, man. I mean, it was an absolute, the biggest obstacle that I faced in trying to, what I called, you know, get sober. Because, you know, there's, as you know, there's such a big difference between sobriety and recovery and not using, you know, not using is not even remotely related to being sober.

You know, you're just not using anymore. And that's where I was, is like, I was almost, I was willing to kind of do the work if someone would have given me, you know, here's what you need to do. I think I was willing to try to do the work if someone would have given me, you know, here's what you need to do. I think I was willing to try to do that and make it happen. But what I wasn't willing to do was admit that I wasn't capable of doing the work. You know, like, well, I'm a man. I can take care of this, you know. I'll do this.

I'll fix this. And I could never get to the first step because that, that, that was the problem right there. Right. Until you can get to that place where you will literally do anything and you will take direction from somebody, even if you think that person is crazy or has no business telling you what to do, because don't you know who, who I think I am, you know, until you can get over that and really destroy the ego to get to that place. You know, it takes, it takes destroying the ego to get to that place where you can actually grow. And it's completely counterintuitive, but yeah, it's the greatest feeling when you can

finally let go of that. Yeah. So, yeah. And I think there's a lesson in there, you know, to, you know, competing and stuff like that is that is giving over that control. Even when you get to the place where you want to be competitive, I have to accept any possibility in a race. I'm going to accept the two extremes, right? I could win or I could not finish. And once I'm okay with either scenario, then I can just run. I can just be in the moment and run. You're not attached. Yeah. Yeah. That's freedom. Yeah. That's freedom. All right.

320 pounds. Okay. Yeah. We got it. Yes. So all things being equal, I used to use a lot more soap. No, you didn't. A lot more of a lot of things, I think. Right.

Yeah. 320 pounds. I mean, the only other person I've had on the podcast who was, you know, pushing the scale at that level was Josh Lajani. And it was fascinating to hear his story of how he finally kind of came to grips with it and got on top of it. And I saw similarities in your story. And one of the things that really struck me actually highlighted it. You said, hold on, I'll find it. But you said, hold on, I'll find it. You said, changing your body and losing weight long term is not about willpower. And you go on and then you say, you have to change the way you think and change the way you perceive the world. Right?

So it's not about a diet or some kind of short-term goal. It has to do with like doing the inside work to change your entire kind of orientation about how you're interacting with the environment around you. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And we started talking about that earlier when I was like I used to have this weird perception of food and what people are. And I would think, you know, like I would see some, you know, fit-looking person and they're, you know, eating a salad or something and they're eating something really healthy. And I go, what the hell are you doing, man? You're thin and fit. You can eat whatever you want.

Why aren't you eating a Big Mac? I had it like totally screwed up in my head. I wasn't thinking, wow, that person is healthy and vibrant looking because they eat well. I thought, that, wow, he, that person is healthy and vibrant looking because they eat well. I thought that's just who they are. And it has nothing, you know, that was almost a byproduct of it. And I certainly. Yeah. Like if I look like that, I'd eat a Big Mac. That's like, that's the same. That's like saying if I wasn't an alcoholic, I'd get drunk every night. Exactly. Well, an alcoholic, I'd get drunk every night.

I'd drink all the time. Exactly. Well, so, I mean, so much of it is image, right? And how we see ourselves. And I didn't see myself as someone who needed to lose weight at that point. I saw myself as a fat person. And I was always going to be a fat person. And if I was going to

not be a fat person, I had to figure out a way to trick my body, you know, or trick the universe and trick the world into getting me skinny, you know, and I think that what is it? Let's sit there for a minute. I mean, what is it? What is it like to be that heavy? You know, just the day in day out, like, you know, shopping for pants and getting a belt and sitting on an airplane and standing in line, like just the simple things of navigating a typical day. Yeah, absolutely. The airplane's a big one because I used to, you know, I was traveling a lot,

and I would get on a plane, and I would walk down the aisle, and I could see everybody looking at me. And they were just going, oh, fuck, shit, no, please, please, no, no, no. And then, you know, someone would lose the lottery, and I'd plop down next to them. And then, you know, someone would lose the lottery and I'd plop down next to them. And, you know, I got extra like to have that little like thing for the seatbelt with the extender on it. You know, I did never I never needed that.

But, you know, I would definitely spill over into the chair next to me, you know, and that person would have to twist sideways a little bit. And I was not the type of person who could let something like that go. I would have to joke about it, you know, so I would I was not the type of person who could let something like that go. I would have to joke about it, you know? So I would, I would start the conversation, right? I'm go, Oh, you know, what did you do in your past life? You know, sorry, you lost the lottery today. And you know, if you'd waited 10 more minutes, you would have got a different seat on the plane. You know, you shouldn't be in such a hurry, you know, that kind of stuff. But, um, but all of that is just like reaffirming this, like sense that you're a piece of shit. Absolutely.

Absolutely. And I hear that from people all the time. They go, you know, I'm just this way and I'm happy. And, you know, I can't presume to know exactly what another human being is really feeling. But I can say, well, I used to say that too. And it wasn't true. It wasn't honest. You know, I wasn't happy with how I looked. I would joke about it. I would it wasn't true. It wasn't honest. I wasn't happy with how I looked. I would joke about it.

I would talk about it, but I wasn't happy. It's a defense mechanism. Yeah, absolutely. And when I first started losing weight, I was wearing size 50 pants with a 30-inch inseam. That's as big as it got for me. I had the stretchy waist pants. I had to have the little elastic bands in them. Size

became much more of a concern than fashion. Just finding things that fit was hard to do. If I could find something fit that fit and I liked the way it looked, that was a bonus. You eventually end up looking like a clown,

no matter what, because you're wearing a flannelannel shirt and plaid pants and, you know, because that's all you can find in your size. So I noticed when I lost the weight, I went and played golf and I hadn't played in a long time. And it was the most strange sensation because when I went to line up a putt, my hands were right up close to my body. And it felt so odd because my hands were way out here past my belly before when I was putting. And it actually changed my entire golf swing, too, because I wasn't slicing the ball as much. But I digress. It changed more than that, I would imagine. And at the time, what's it look like? McDonald's,

Hardee's, Burger King, Pizza Hut? I mean, what's the daily routine? You know, yeah, fast food, lots of fast food. I would towards, you know, my weight gain and food consumption was really getting worse in the same way that my drinking was, you know, it was progressing. And towards the end, I was eating fast food three or four times a day. And I would go to McDonald's and I'd get two sausage McEggs with biscuits, sausage biscuits with egg and cheese and hash browns and, of course, a Diet Coke. And then I'd drink. That's just the way it is.

You don't want to spike that blood sugar. Yeah, I know. I don't need that extra 200 calories but you know and then and then in the uh the afternoon i'd go to you mentioned arby's i'd go there a lot but i'd always get the you know those potato cake things they have and i'd get like four of those you know to go along with whatever sandwich i had and and then that would usually be it because then i'd start drinking. And then usually the last meal of the day came late, you know, where it was just, you know, just gluttonous. I mean, just, you know, I'd go get a double quarter pounder with cheese, a filet of fish, French fries.

And those French fries would come back the next day like in whole French fry pieces. And those french fries would come back the next day like in whole french fry pieces. Like not even. The way that would work for me is I didn't want to eat because that would interfere with the buzz. So I would go as long as I could without eating when I was drinking because I didn't want that in my stomach because that would make me feel tired or it would you know take longer to get drunk and inevitably at the end of the night you're starving yep so you do this massive binge and i would wake up you know i just wake up with you know a pizza box you know open on my bed and like big mac wrappers and my sheets and just it's just the worst terrible you can. I can almost smell it. Yeah. It's really pathetic. But that's why they invented like hundred proof schnapps. So if your stomach was really full

and it's dessert-like, it's peppermint. Maybe I should go back and start drinking and try that. So, all right. So, so you're getting sober and you're realizing like, I gotta, now this is the next thing that I have to address. And, and, and you take getting sober and you're realizing like I got to now this is the next thing that I have to address. And you take a very interesting kind of approach. I mean, first you try all these diets, Mediterranean diets, whatever it is, all of them. And then you kind of, you know, flick the switch and say, I'm going to put my scientific hat on because you have this background and approach it from a different perspective. So, you know, walk me through that. Yeah. So the main thing I was cognizant of was behaviorally that whatever the process I used

to get me to where I wanted to be, had to be sustainable, you know, and I knew I was never going to be able to eat all protein for the rest of my life, you know, or I was never going to be able to restrict my calories for the rest of my life. And you, cause you, you'd lost weight and gained a back, you'd, you'd done the yo-yo thing. Bunch of times. I lost 50 pounds at least eight or nine times, you know, and, and I'd always do it on some crazy, you know, diet. And, and usually it would, you know, come undone because number one, I didn't want to

just, you know, keep eating that way. And number two, I wasn't drinking and that wasn't going to last very long. So, yeah, I had to figure out a way to have a healthy relationship with food, and I had to eat. And that was really difficult because I totally linked up losing weight with not eating, obviously, or just eating or eating in some extreme way to trick my body. Like the Atkins thing is 100% protein is what I use like the last five or six times. And it's funny because- Which is very effective at losing weight, but people have a hard time staying on it. Oh, absolutely. And I talk a lot about weight loss now. And whenever I have a group in front of me, I say, how many people have been on a successful diet? And people raise their hand and I'm like, good, keep it up there. So your

idea of a successful diet, gaining weight, losing weight, gaining weight, losing weight, because if it's not, you should put your hand down. Right. So I mean, but just the word diet alone sort of infers temporary. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. So I changed the way that, that I ate and, um, you know, the glycemic index to me, um, made a lot of sense. Um, just because I knew that there was a way that food was affecting my body outside of just calories in and calories out. I knew that there was something bigger in play and, you know, we used to, I think, you know, in 50, 100 years ago, whatever, or longer, that the way that you would be overweight is by being gluttonous, right? I mean, you had to just eat all the time. And certainly I was guilty of that.

with the types of foods that we have that are causing, you know, us to crave things that we wouldn't normally crave and that we're just kind of in this cycle, you know, that our biology wasn't working for us. We were kind of working against us. And so I became a real student of the glycemic index and how my blood sugar was affected. And I became an absolute stickler on it. my blood sugar was affected. And I became an absolute stickler on it. And I mean, I wouldn't have anything with sugar in it at all. And just to paint the complete picture, I mean, when you

were tipping the scales at 320, not only were you overweight, you had a heart condition, you had extremely high blood pressure, and you had been diagnosed with diabetes, right? So this is not just fat guy. This is like sick fat guy. Yeah, no. When they took, the last time I was at the doctor and my blood pressure was so high, and I wish I could remember the numbers. I'll have to go back and get them. But there was a two in there.

But they didn't want me to leave the doctor's office. I mean, they were like, you're going to have a stroke. I'm not telling you you might have a stroke. You are going to have a stroke. It could be in three minutes. You need to be on medication. You need to be on now. And I didn't like that.

So I never, and my reasoning was I never went on medication because I had read that medication is unhealthy. And I didn't want to be on that blood pressure medication and that shit will kill you. Your brain, you're still perceiving the world through a warped brain at this point. Absolutely. So of course I left there. The smart thing would have been, I'm on that medication right now. I'm going to work my way off it, but let's not have a stroke in three minutes. Yeah. I was not capable of the smart thing. In fact, I had to go. I was meeting my friend at the bar. And that's a fact.

I had someone, my buddy Dan was waiting for me at the bar while I was at the doctor's office. You're like, yeah, I can't hang out in this doctor's office. Yeah. And of course, I told him. It's pretty good to be done. Yeah, we sat and laughed about it and, you know, drank ourselves to it. Oh, my God.

So, yeah, I was really, really unhealthy. So, yeah, I was really, really unhealthy. But, yeah, I became a science or a student of the glycemic index. And that was kind of the end-all, be-all for me while I was losing weight. And it was, like everything else, a progression that eventually led me to adopting a plant-based diet and all that. But during those initial stages, it was really no sugar, no breads, no processed foods. And I just, I went into it with that mentality that my body's going to heal, you know, and I need to give it time to do that. That I'm going to trust that this is kind of part of the same process I was on with alcohol, that I was sick and unhealthy.

And as time went by, I was going to get better. And I looked at food being the same way that I crave all these things that are killing me. And if I just give it enough time that I'm not going to crave those things anymore and I'm going to get to a better place and I'm not going to be in war with myself the whole time. Yeah. The analogy with, there's a couple analogies with Josh's, Josh Lajani's message. And that is this place that you came to, that he also came to, which was, I'm not doing this, I'm taking my focus off the scale. I'm taking my focus off of losing weight. I'm looking at this from a perspective of how can I be healthy and how can I be an athlete? And there's this thing in the book where somebody says, well, if you're trained for ultra marathons, who cares what you eat, right? But you're saying, I want to be a healthy human being. And that's

very different from, I want a slimmer waistline. Yeah. Well, and I mean, there's a big difference between a slim waistline and even health and even fitness. And there's no shortage of people out there now who are extremely fit, but they're not healthy. You know, they eat poorly and they have high cholesterol and they have high blood pressures and other things, but they can run, you know, five and a half minute miles. They don't usually work that way, you know, but usually if you're taking that much time to train your body, you're trying to treat yourself right. But we know that they're not, you know, mutually exclusive. Right. So you adopt this approach. And so what happens?

How long before you get to a place where your blood pressure starts to normalize and the weight's coming off? Walk me through the evolution a little bit. So I logged every workout that I've ever had since I was started at 320 pounds. And I have these notebooks, these little day planners, where I was writing down my calories in there. And typically what I'd have is I was eating a carbohydrate restricted diet, but I said that I could eat as many carbohydrates as I wanted as long as they came from vegetables, but I wasn't having any starches or anything like that. And I wrote down everything in the little journal on each day.

And I was weighing myself religiously. So no rice, no potatoes, no fruit? I didn't really restrict fruit, but I was avoiding it at times, you know, but if I wanted it, I needed it, I had it, you know, because it was on a healthy list, you know. What about potatoes, sweet potatoes? Sweet potatoes I would have for sure. Again, it all boil down to the glycemic index. So I kind of had this, this, this pass or fail grade, you know, it's like, I think it was 50. If something was higher, you know, than a 50 on the glycemic index, I wouldn't have it. And if it, and if it was close to that 50, it would be something that I wouldn't very often. And then the lower down the spectrum they went.

Interesting. But you're still eating meat and dairy at this point? I was. Yes, absolutely. And as weight does, my weight started bouncing around a lot. I'd lose. When you've been out of shape and you're drinking a lot and you're just living so horribly, you're going to see a dramatic result at first. And I was no exception.

I want to say I lost 40 pounds the first month, you know. In one month. In one month. Wow. And then it leveled off. But that's like 80%, 90% booze, right? Right. And the bad decisions that come with booze, like all the late night McDonald's and all that kind of stuff. But interestingly, actually, I need to back up one quick second because for the first couple weeks after I stopped and maybe even 30 days after I stopped drinking, I was eating really terribly still.

I just quit drinking and that was enough. That was enough. I hear you. I looked at my refrigerator one day and I just started laughing because it was like Pop-Tarts and the little chocolate covered donuts and frosted flakes and every Wonder Bread. I bought a loaf of Wonder Bread. I had a Wonder Bread. So like eight years old, I was just craving sugar.

You need like a little comfort. Yeah. I was definitely just broke up with your best friend. So absolutely. My, my abusive marriage came to an end, but I still missed my partner. Absolutely. My abusive marriage came to an end, but I still missed my partner. And so then I kind of, I was in that place where I'm like, okay, I need to address these things together. But I stopped weighing myself because I was that old addict brain, you know, and I was just trying to control that number and it wouldn't listen to me.

And it kept sending me back into that place. And you know what addiction feels like. And it felt like that. It felt like that ugly place to me again, where I was obsessing about it and I was thinking about it all the time. And I was, so I just had to let it go. And I eventually thought, you know, I'm in this for health. I'm in this because I want to live. And if I ultimately can do the things I want to do and I can look the way I want to look and feel the way I want to feel, I don't care if that number ever changes. If it stays 320, that's okay.

That's okay. So I started- Another surrender. Yeah, yeah, absolute, total, complete surrender. And it was, once again, very empowering to me. And it gave me a new focus. And it allowed me to put more energy into what I was doing instead of less. And I still threw the measurements on occasionally to just make sure everything was moving in the right direction.

Because there's not that emotional component to a measurement, right? If I see a movement, and this is what I try to do with people that I help lose weight, is go with the emotion, the scale, man. If you want four pounds of weight loss and you get three, it's a failure. But if your measurements go down an eighth of an inch, it's success because there's not that emotional part to it. And I could obviously see my clothes changing and I was feeling better and I just kept going. And so how does it continue to evolve? changing and, and, and I was feeling better and then I just, um, just kept going. And so how does it continue to evolve? You have this, you know, it's pretty rigorous kind of glycemic index approach. And then how did it kind of morph over time into what you do now? So, um, I was becoming fitter and fitter. Um, I, I decided I was going to run a marathon somewhere

along the way. Um, I did a 5k, which was the scariest thing that ever happened to me in my life. Right. Yeah. And this is not an overnight thing. You know, this is running for 15 seconds because that's all you could do. Yeah. And that description of the little bump on the sidewalk that, you know, elevated the sidewalk, you know, a foot, you know, was the big terror. It was, man.

I could see that thing coming, man. It was like an eighth of a mile loop around the park, and I could just feel the weight of that 10-foot rise coming like it was Hope Pass. What was it that you think clicked in you that said running? Or I have this dream of running a marathon. Why running? Why not? dream of running a marathon? Like why running? Why not? I mean, what was it? Do you, is there anything specific that you think made you gravitate towards that as this litmus test for growth?

Yeah. Yeah. It seemed impossible. I mean, and I really think that was it. And, you know, I think that, I think all human beings to a certain extent kind of have that, that thing that will rise to the occasion, you know, and I felt like if something didn't seem impossible, it didn't seem like it was worth doing. And, um, I wanted it to be big and I wanted it to be meaningful. You know, I wanted it to be something, something worthy of creating a whole new life and, and, um, I don't know, it was running.

And I do firmly believe that it could have been something else, you know, as long as it had those same components to it, but the state, the emotional stakes had to be high, very high to get you out of bed and to really kind of, um, be powerful enough for you to really restructure how you were living your day every day. Yeah. And, and because I'd tried to do it in the past and I couldn't, it almost became, um, this thing where, you know, when I ran the first time for 20 minutes nonstop, I mean, that seemed like a really big success, you know, and, and, you know, kind of, um, you know, proof that, uh, things were going in the right direction that I wasn't just spinning my wheels, even though

I was running on a treadmill. So technically that was exactly spinning my wheels. So from that first 15-second run and panting to the first marathon, how long are we talking? August of 2005 to October of 2006. So a little over a year. A little over a year. But that was a very focused year. It was. And when you ran that first 15 seconds, what were you weighing then? 320.

320. Yeah. And at your first marathon, what were you clocking in at? 180. 180. And it was very important. Which is still 20 pounds heavier than where you ended up at Badwater. Yeah.

And it was really important to me. And we're all on our own journey. And everyone, and everyone has their own, their own kind of thing they're trying to do. But for me, it was really important that I approached the marathon. I wanted to be a runner when I got there and I wanted to run it. I didn't need to run it really fast, you know, but I wanted it to be my victory lap. So I wanted to achieve all of my weight loss goals and my health and fitness goals along the way. And I didn't want it like the old me would have just been like, okay, what's the minimum amount I can do and still get this finisher's medal? You know what I mean? And can I fake it? Can I walk it? Can I get through it? And yeah, because that's about saying you did it

as opposed to really embracing the experience and what it actually means to tackle that and give it your best go. Absolutely. I didn't want to run a marathon. I wanted to be the type of person that could run marathons. Yeah. Say that again. That's an important distinction. I didn't want to run a marathon. I wanted to be the type of person who can run marathons. To be a runner, not somebody who did a marathon. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. That was a that was a really big, really big part of the journey for me. And it kept me motivated and it kept me going out there. And, um, I did the

5k. I was, it was when you, but hold on a second. All right. So when you're three 20 and you have this idea that you're going to run a marathon, I mean, how long before you said, said those words out loud to another human being? It didn't take too long before I started saying that. Yeah. So what's the reaction you're getting? Oh, they would look me up and down. Yeah, alright, buddy. Yeah. Okay, Dave. Ready to go back to Arby's? Yeah, I remember last time you said you were never going to drink again.

Seriously. But, you know, I think insanity is an amazing tool. You just gave me the tagline for this episode, RRP episode, whatever. David Clark, I think insanity is an amazing tool. It is because it can create leverage to produce anything you want. Right. You know, and you got to be afraid of the person that's too crazy to know better. Right. And so I didn't mind. I was just like, you know what?

Screw it. Go ahead. Laugh. And I went and I had these little silicone bracelets made up that said 26.2. And I just thought that was really archaic and obscure and no one would know what it meant or anything like that. I thought it was so original. What is that mysterious number what is that number i feel like it's the same number in that like white oval sticker on the back of every car that you see i know and i still lived in colorado at the time right right

but yeah um so i decided i was a runner I, I wasn't going to live to reality, getting, getting in the way of that, that you redefined yourself. I mean, that is, you know, a transformation, a mental and emotional transformation that precedes the spirit, the physical transformation. Yeah. Right. Like you stepped into this identity before it had been manifest and assumed the role. Yeah. Right. Like you stepped into this identity before it had been manifest and assumed the role. are they based in facts. They're just emotional attachments that we made, you know, somewhere along the way in childhood, we were told you were the smart one or you were the stubborn one or you

were the fat one or whatever it is. And it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. And it's really important, I think, for human beings to be in a place where how you view yourself and who you are matches with what you're doing. And I think I talk a little bit about it in the book that we create this conflict. And with the addict me, whenever I tried to stop drinking, that was my behavior. I was trying to not drink, but I knew I was a drinker. So that wasn't going to ever last very long, you know, because I was at battle with myself. And I had to look at myself as someone who wouldn't dream of drinking alcohol, who would never consume recklessly and destroy myself like that. And once I did that and addressed that spiritual part of that and was able to get myself to buy into that, then the behavior changed a little more naturally.

But what is the process of changing that identity? Insanity. But what is the process of changing that identity from saying, yeah, because you're saying, you know, going from knowing you're an alcoholic to saying, not saying, but believing I am somebody that doesn't drink or I am somebody who, I am a runner. I am somebody who runs marathons. Like, what is the process of that? marathons like what is the process of that because i think you know listen the truth is is that most people that weigh three most people most people who are alcoholics don't get sober and most people that weigh 320 pounds don't lose 160 pounds so what is it that was different about you and how you know how did you kind of create that you you know, create that new path for yourself? I mean, I guess I'm looking for, you know, I'm looking for you to be able to articulate the process a little bit for somebody who's out there who's like, please tell me how you did this. Yeah.

And I was joking about it when I said the insanity thing, but there's actually a modicum of truth to that. And you have to, I had to drink the Kool-Aid, right? You had to believe it. It's not about like looking in the mirror and saying, you know, trying to convince yourself of something you actually don't believe. Right. So that meant moving forward. Once I decided that I believe that I had to only engage in thoughts and behaviors that supported that view of who I was and anything that would come up. Cause all kinds of things would come up to show me, improve to me on a daily basis that I wasn't that person. I'd be like, I've always been that person.

I'm just off track now. I'm getting back to where I'm supposed to be. This was who I was supposed to be all along, and I screwed it up. And so I think there's so much information that comes into our daily lives. And, you know, we can't, we tend to grab onto the things that support our predetermined ideas, right? Even if it's like, oh, that guy's a jerk. That guy can do something really nice. And you're going to go, yeah, but that's not real.

He's an asshole. I know him, you know. And it's the same thing, I think, with our behaviors. And there's a big difference between being someone who needs to lose weight and someone, you know, who's a fat person. And so I started deleting all of the information that came my way that supported that I was supposed to be overweight, that I was, you know, supposed to be an addict, that it was just genetically wired into my DNA. Sometime I was like, bullshit, I'm not even going to entertain that idea, store it, throw it away. And I would shift my direction over to something else. I would, you know, take a physical action, like getting online and looking

up marathons and reading about marathon training plans and reading about running shoes and, or just go for a run, you know, like there's no greater way to prove to yourself you're a runner than going for a run, you know? So, and I would do that. And it's like, everything became an affirmation. I was like, okay, this is it. This is, this is real. And, and I believe. I would imagine it starts with a little fake it till you make it. What would a runner do? Well, I don't know. A runner would probably go running. Yeah. A runner would probably go on a website and try to learn something about running shoes. Yeah. You have to be willing to be a little stupid, you know, and a little crazy at first. And it's hard and you'll try to talk yourself out of it.

I certainly did, you know. Yeah. There had to be those moments where you're kidding yourself. You're like, what are you doing? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I just, I figured, you know, that I wasn't a 320 pound alcoholic addict by accident. Right. And, and it was all of the crap that I wasn't a 320-pound alcoholic addict by accident, right? And it was all of the crap that I put on myself that got me there. So it was that surrender thing. It was like it's really easy for me to say, I don't have it all figured out. I don't know. If I did, I wouldn't be here. So I'm going to say that this is the way it is, and I have no proof otherwise because I don't have anything figured out.

Interesting. And did you try to surround yourself with a community of people that could teach you and support this dream? Or are you going lone wolf on this? At first, I was very much alone. I think the first outward action I took into the running community was going to a running store in Boulder. Which could be an incredibly intimidating thing. It was really intimidating. And it was really hard. I sat out in front of the store for a long time.

And, you know, it was like, it was a little better buying my shoes at, you know, the sports store. Yeah, you go to Sports Chalet or something where you know it's easier. But, you know, again, it was like all those things. I was like, you know, the old me would have just left and gone somewhere else. You know, I'm going to do things differently now. I'm going to go in here. A real runner is going to go to the real running store and is going to ask the real questions.

Yeah, and not only am I going to go in, I'm going to just tell them who I am and why I'm here. You know, I'm not even going to candy coat it. You know, I'm like, hey, you know, I've lost 60 pounds and I want to run a marathon, you know, and it was almost like daring him to, you know, laugh or scoff, you know, it's like, this is it. How'd that go? You know, they were incredibly supportive, you know, and now I know that, you know, it's a great community of people. But yeah, they were incredibly supportive. He asked me questions about, you know, what speeds I was running at and, you know, how many miles I was doing. And I shared all of that willingly. And he was very encouraging and said, you know, hey, you did a great job and, you know,

good for you. And that was important for me because it was an affirmation that I hadn't gotten, you know, before. So I think it was very. He's looking at you like you mean business. He's not questioning you. Yeah. So it's another little, like, notch. You know, and it's interesting that once it became full circle and, you know, I'd done the marathon. And then I was getting involved more in the

running community and doing more group runs with people and things like that. Um, I never hid my story, you know, ever. Um, but I didn't willingly share it. And I think, you know, you talk about part of the process, you know, there was, there was a growing process along the way in that first two years, I was kind of fumbling my way through my sobriety. I was fumbling my way through the weight loss. I was fumbling my way through everything. And I hadn't really put it together yet. I was certainly better than I was before.

But I thought somehow if I shared where I'd come from, that people would think less of me. They wouldn't accept me as a real runner, you know. So that was like the last little bit that was holding on. Interesting. Yeah. And the great irony is that the story is so powerful and it's a journey towards willingness, another level of willingness and surrender

to be vulnerable enough to share the story. Yeah, because I felt like I worked to get to a certain place surrender to be vulnerable enough to share the story. Yeah. Because I felt like I worked to get to a certain place and I didn't want anything to detract from it. Right. And I felt that ego coming in. Yeah. I don't want people to see me as that other guy because I worked so hard to

be this new guy. That's, that's in the past. So, so when you sit down to write the book, I would imagine you might have been struggling or grappling with a little resistance when it comes to filling in the gaps and really fleshing out the details of your story. I mean, I know I experienced that when I was writing my book, but I also was very aware that that was the only thing that was going to make the book work was whether I was willing to do that. Yeah. Yeah. It was definitely a, um, a test, if you will, of, you know, how, how much you're willing to put yourself out there. I mean, there's so much

went into that title, you know, from just the crazy part of just, you know, you're out there to putting yourself out there to, as you know, what we call people who are still out there struggling, they're out there, but it was, it was the most incredible journey of self-discovery that i've ever been on and i i still i've been asked a couple times if i if i do a little book event or something i'll say you want to read something from it and i'm no i can't you know i can't and um it was just times i was literally laughing out loud while i was writing it and other times i was just bawling and crying and i'd have to walk outside and um pray and thank god that i made it out you know and because when you when you relive something as you know from the

writing process it's i just couldn't believe the amount of emotion and detail that would come back when I sat down and started to write. Yeah, you start remembering stuff that, you know, you forgot about or it just comes back in technical. Yeah. And it's not always welcome. No. No. But, you know, there were certainly times where I was like, this is just too much, you know. But, you know, there were certainly times where I was like, this is just too much, you know.

And, you know, I really wasn't sure until probably, I'm not even sure when the exact moment I was 100% sure I was going to actually, like, release it or publish it or anything like that. I knew I had to write it for me. And then I figured, hey, I knew my mom would buy one, you know. I couldn't imagine anyone would want to read my crap you know but i was like if someone does then that's just a bonus well when you when you make that decision though you're like all right you know it's it's a scary thing you know it's a scary thing and i and i you know when i was writing the drunkologue part of my book listen you know i could like yourself i could tell stories all day long and i have a lot of you know i have plenty of stories that are a lot worse that are

in the book but it's like what is the purpose of this book? Like, you know, I need to establish that this is my past, but, but you also, you can, you can attach your ego to those stories. Like, look how crazy I was, you know? And it's like, it's not about that, you know, it's not, it's not for shock value. It's like, okay, I need to, people need to understand that this is the place that I'm coming from. But you know, I didn't want, I didn't want to freak people out either. Like you can go too far with it. No doubt. You have to find that balance. For me, I went after the stories that I had the most humiliation attached to because they're the ones I didn't want to share because

there's the ones you're talking about, the ones that you talk about with your buddies and that are, that are kind of, kind of funny, kind of, you ones that you talk about with your buddies and they're that are kind of kind of funny kind of you know you laugh about them and and you know they're the crazy rock star kind of stuff but you know i didn't want like you said i want to glamorize it and um i figured well i'll share the ones that we can be like romanticized absolutely yeah absolutely but sitting on a park bench and shitting yourself in LA is not that's not so romantic yeah yeah yeah and uh the thing about it though is by making that decision to say okay it's out there I mean that's freedom yeah you feel that though right yeah yeah if you I've told this to some friends like if you ever want to experience true freedom you write down every piece of shit moment you've had and put it out there for the world.

And you will experience. You want to feel like you're walking through Times Square naked. That's what it's like. Yeah. And there's such a difference between, you know, telling your friends or even a group of 100 people some of your personal things and actually putting it in print where people can reread it and pick it apart and analyze it. And criticize it. And criticize it.

And that was my kind of deal with myself or whatever. It's like once the book is done and once it's actually published, it's not mine anymore. Once the book is done and once it's actually published, it's not mine anymore. And anything that anyone wants to think about it, how they want to interpret it, is up to them. They bought the book. They read it. They have their right to what they feel about it. It's theirs now. Yeah, and part of the deal also is criticize away.

Sure. But if one person out there reads it and gets sober, like it's all worth it, or one person out there, you know, changes their diet and does something that they didn't think that they could do, then that's great. Because that's what it's about. They just stop giving up on themselves. And I have no doubt that that is the impact of this book. Oh, thank you. Whether you've experienced it directly or not yet, you will. How long is it?

When did it come out? It's been out for two months now. Okay, so brand new. Yeah. It's just starting for you, man. You know, it's been more than I could have ever imagined so far, and it's just starting, hopefully. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, with it comes, I think, a little mantle of responsibility now because you kind of carry this inspiration torch, you know, and people are going to look to you and say, how did you do it?

Help me, you know, help. Can you can you help me? And and you're going to find yourself in this position where people are going to be, you know, wanting you to guide guide them. I mean, have you started to experience that you know I I have and I mean I know you're training and coaching people and all that so you're you're already engaged in that professionally but just sort of the emails will come in and stuff like that yeah yeah and and I'm I'm always thankful for those emails um but it is tough. It is tough because, you know, you don't always have the piece of advice that people want, you know.

And I'm never going to tell someone what I think they want to hear. I spent my whole life doing that kind of shit. So I'm just going to let the truth light the way, you know, sometimes the truth just demands to be said. Right. You know, because you're right, like a lot of people, you know,

they have these passive, passive-aggressive reach out for help kind of thing, and I did it. I remember I called an AA meeting one time, and I was like, when is your next meeting? And they're like, I don't know. Let me find someone who knows and this and that. And I was like, you should be ready to take someone's fucking call when they call you. And I hung up, and now they were just laughing their ass off at me. They're like, look at this drunk, you know, but I think a lot of people do that. They'll reach out and they expect you to be able to, you know, like make something happen. It's like, I'll share with

you every corner of my soul and everything that I've ever been through, but that's all I can do. I don't have any secret pieces of wisdom. It's on them to actually, you know, take what's in the book or what's out there and actually implement it into their lives. And that's the hard piece, right? I mean, looking back, you know, put yourself back at 320 pounds at the end of your drinking career and just imagine that you would be somebody

who had not only run bad water, done all these crazy races that you've done, have written this book, you know, be a source of inspiration to other people, be actually, you know, coaching and training other people. I mean, is that, could you have possibly imagined that? No. Well, I don't know. No, no, no. I mean, where did you, you know, what would have your, what would your dream have been? Like what was the farthest I could see? Like where, yeah. Like where did you, you know, what were you aspiring to? I wanted to run the New York city marathon one day. I thought, you know, and it's funny because like, I remembered seeing the Iron man triathlon

when i was a kid and i couldn't quite get to the point where i could ever see myself doing that but i had this idea like i wonder if i could train for it like not actually do it but could i just train for it could i just could i just like like what a weird thought though. Yeah. Yeah. What do you think that's about? Like doing the race would actually mean that you would be accountable to other people or I just don't think that I could put it out there. I think that I saw that as a certain type of person that could do that. And I wasn't that person, but maybe I could be the type of person who might be able to train for it.

Yeah. interesting. All right, so you get the marathon done. And then where does the idea of like taking it to the ultra level start to creep into the consciousness? I read Dean's book. And actually before that, even right after I finished the marathon, my ex-wife, I was sitting there. I was still like still jacked up, you know, walking downstairs backwards and stuff. And I don't think I'd taken my blue Denver marathon hoodie off yet. You know, I think it was like 30 days before I stopped wearing that every single day. And my ex came and I said, oh yeah, there's this guy. He ran 50 marathons in 50 States in 50 days. And I was like, no, he didn't. I mean, I didn't even hesitate. You were like, are you trying to make me feel like shit?

I was like, no, he did not. I just ran a marathon. I'm like, you read that wrong. There's no way. And I just remember being just like, there wasn't anything more insane someone could have said. I don't even know how to respond to that. So I Googled Dean Karnas, and I read Ultra Marathon Man, and I saw Running on the Sun. And Running on the Sun just, man, I don't know.

It's a documentary about bad water for people that don't know. Can you, is it online? Can people? Yeah, I think it's still out there. If it is, I'll find a link. I'll put it in the show notes. Yeah, that but uh no go ahead yeah it it um man it just it really it really touched something like that scared me it scared me because i thought that um i was probably going to want to do that one day and that scared the effing shit out of me and uh

so that seed was planted. It really was. That documentary and Piedine's book. Yeah, and interestingly enough about that, I talk about full circle and just, you know, my life has just, you know, tipped so far the other direction that, I mean, I'm just, I can't even believe, you know,

what my life is today. And I saw Marshall Ulrich on that film and he wrote the forward for my book and i met marshall out at bad water when i did it and it was just so insane you know like i was like my life is i have the most bizarre life in the world you know it just seemed i mean it's it really does feel like you know i actually put it out there on a Facebook post the other day. I was like, you ever just realize you're absolutely 100% living your dream life? And that's the way I feel.

I feel it's just. I felt that yesterday when I was sitting up in Dean Hernandez's house doing a podcast with him. And he's talking to me and I'm looking at him and I'm not hearing anything that he's saying because I'm just thinking, what am I doing here? You just described the first five minutes of the show. For me. How did my life get to this point where I'm sitting here having a conversation with this guy? Like it just hit me like a ton of bricks and in a beautiful way. Yeah.

It's a heavy way too. Like you know, it's a heavy way to, like you said, there's a certain amount of responsibility that comes with, but it did not happen because I, I plotted it out or I made some goal and said, I'm going to do this. Like there, it's just,

there's just no way, you know, there's no way left to my own devices that it happens. No, no, you'd screw it up. Oh, for sure. Big you know i'm trying to derail

it every day you know so you see this movie and uh and and you read dean's book you know the the movie is about just how insane this bad water race is the seeds planted and this is 2007 yeah no 2006 2006 still right yeah and uh and your first bad water is 2013 yep so we're talking about a seven year span here during which period of time you run the leadville 100 twice. And a bunch of other crazy stuff, too. Yeah, so. So you're creating this, you know, it's not the easy narrative is, you know, 320 pounds to Badwater, you know. That'll probably be the title of my blog post. We could have a subtitle.

I know, because, well, that's like, you know, it sounds so crazy dramatic. And it is. Well, that's like, you know, it sounds so crazy dramatic, and it is. But we're talking about many years of brick by brick, a lot of miles. Yeah, I never really exercised any level of patience in my past life, so I've been trying. And I didn't want to do the same thing and just say, just like with the marathon, I didn't want to go, okay, well, how can I go fake bad water? You know, I didn't even know that you couldn't fake bad water. That was really hard just to get in it. They won't let you fake it. They'll weed you out. How much is race day registration? But yeah. And then reading about Dean's book and just reading about

such a thing as an ultra marathon, I found out that the Leadville 100 was right in my backyard and it just seemed kind of, um, kind of shitty to get on a plane and fly somewhere else to do an ultra when you have one of the most iconic ones right in your backyard. Right. And in certain respects, maybe even, I mean, harder in a different way with that crazy elevation and thin air and everything else. I mean, what was that first Leadville like? It was, you know, when I wrote the book, the finish line of my first Leadville was the finish line of the book. And I actually, I had to, it was a huge process of, you know, I'm getting ahead of myself. You know, I'm getting ahead of myself, but, but, um, bad water or, uh, Leadville, my first Leadville finish was really the true birth of me as, as a runner.

Um, not that anything else I did before wasn't, you know, running, but it was that moment that I really accepted that I wasn't going to dismiss anything that I'd ever done or that I, that I did. And I wasn't going to live that life anymore, but because up that I did and that I wasn't going to live that life anymore. Because up to that point, like I did the marathon and I was like, okay, what's next? And then I started doing triathlon, like, okay, what's next? And I was still searching. And so I think I stopped searching at that point.

I decided that I was here and then I just needed to be here as much as I could. I needed to be in that moment and be. And just own it. Yeah. Well, in a tangible way, I mean, you went from running a marathon, which is something that hundreds of thousands of people have done to running Leadville, which very, very few people have done or are capable of doing. And the process of getting, thank you for saying that. The process of getting there was, was, um, it was wrought with lots of complications along the way, including, uh, back surgery and.

Yeah. You have the two herniated discs. Yeah. I mean, there's, there's a lot, you know, we don't want to have too many spoiler alerts. Yeah. But there's a lot. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of ups and downs.

You're going to have to read the book. We could be here for eight hours. And I could. I could talk to you forever. Yeah, thanks. This is another example of how cool my life is. Listen, it's cool for me. This is awesome.

I'm fascinated. But walk me through the Leadville. I mean, like, you know, paint the picture of just how difficult that race is. Well, training for the race was more difficult than I had imagined. In fact, it smacked me down and humbled me in a big, huge way. And there presented a moment where I was either going to walk away and just go back to doing triathlons or I was going to, you know, step up and do some things differently. And it's where I got serious, the next level of serious, you know. And I changed my diet.

That's when I adopted the plant-based diet. I went from 180 to 160. What was the decision that drove that? A dare. Oh, yeah. Pretty much a 30-day challenge by a friend. And I was like, you know, and at that point I was eating really clean. I mean, I ate, you know, fruits, vegetables, lean meats.

You know, I really didn't eat much other than that. I mean, I had my occasional thing. I would, you know, have a treat here and there. But, I mean, 90% of my diet was what most people would call super clean. Right. And training a ton and you just kind of stabilized at 180. Yeah. I'd been there for a few years, and I felt fit and able to do big runs and things like that.

I'd done some 50 milers and stuff like that. And then a dare. Like what? No way could you possibly eat a plant-based diet? No. Just from a friend like you who got tired of me and asking him where he gets his protein, you know, cause he was a vegan. Oh, cause he was, I see.

Now I get it. And then he's like, why don't you just do it for 30 days? You know, what are you afraid of? Just try it. See if it works for you. And I'm like, all right, I got nothing better to do. It's like, but if I'm going to do it, I'm going to do it. And I'm going to do it.

And I actually did it like more strict than he was doing it. Cause he was, he was telling me like, well, every once in a while I'll do this or that. And I'm like, well, if I'm going to do it, I'm just going to do it. And I'm going to do it. And I actually did it like more strict than he was doing it. Cause he was, he was telling me like, well, every once in a while I'll do this or that. And I'm like, well, if I'm going to do it, I'm just going to do it. And I'm not going to have anything. I'm not going to consume anything that has animal, any trace amount of animal. You were very alcoholic about it. Yes, of course. I was very addict about it. Exactly. And, uh, um, so I did it for 30 days and I mean, I felt like I was on drugs. I mean, I felt so crazy good.

I felt aware and light and fast, and I was recovering from my workouts better. Lots of things were changing at the same time. I was changing the volume of training. I was changing my mental focus, and I changed my diet all at the same time, and it was just like the perfect storm, I think, for me as an athlete. And I just never look back. I've said all along, the day I feel I'm missing something from my diet, I'll go have it. I'm not on a moral mission to make the world vegan.

It's just about feeling better and being healthy. I understood a whole new level of what health was. Interesting. Yeah. And how long ago was that? Four years. Four years and still haven't gone back. That's pretty cool.

Yeah. That's pretty cool. Yeah. I mean, I like that. I like the openness, you know, the idea that you're listening to your body and this is working for you. And if it wasn't, you would change. You don't seem to have a dogmatic approach to it,

but rather a pretty scientific, kind of rational perspective on it. And hey, if you think it's making you faster, certainly you dropped an extra 20 pounds. So there's something right there, but that's cool. I try to apply my insanity in very logical ways. That's cool. I try to apply my insanity in a very logical way. You do.

How to apply insanity to improve your life. I'm going to grapple with this over the next couple of days. There's a difference between crazy and chemically imbalanced. It's the chemically imbalanced you got to watch out for. Yeah. After the podcast with Dean, it wasn't a nutrition. I mean, I was talking to him about how his nutrition has changed, but, you know, he's certainly not vegan. I mean, he eats, you know, he eats kind of like it's what it sounds like you were eating before you made the switch.

But after we were done, he's like, really? You know, like, how does that work? And he was inquisitive, like he's interested, but he was also very, like, dubious. Like, I want to see your hematocrit. You know, right. I'll send it to you. Sure, but yeah, I mean, I feel the same, I feel the same way in the sense that if my body started to feel like things weren't working, you know, then I have to be open enough to reevaluate. Like I have to be willing to step outside, um, you know, the label and the dogma, you know, I've kind of painted myself into a corner

here with this thing. You know, I'm the plant-based athlete guy, but the truth of the matter is it's been eight years and it's been fantastic. So I have no reason to, you know, second guess it unless something changes, but so far so good. And it's encouraging and cool to hear that that's been part of your journey. Yeah. Yeah. A big unexpected part of it that's, you know, just I think made my life better in lots of different ways. I mean, what was, you know, when you were going out and you were able to recover better, I mean, you know, is there anything more specific? Just being able to bounce back between big runs?

Yeah, like just really tangible things of noticing, you know, that I'm increasing my level, my volume, overall volume of training. I started doing, you know, two, three hour runs several times a week and I was okay. And not just okay, but getting stronger. And a lot of the trails that I was, you know, hiking up cause they were super steep. Like I have this one route, Bear Peak and Boulder that I go up and I was running things that I couldn't run before, you know, and that's a real difference. It's like I struggle from this section to this section and now I'm pushing it faster. I'm going faster.

And that's always like the big fear, especially if you dealt with injury in your life, that you're going to increase your training volume and you're just going to go backwards. So I was very, I had to learn the hard way that if my brain's tired, you know, if it's my brain pushing back at me, that I keep going. But if it's my body pushing back, I listen to it. And that's a, that's a hard thing to balance. Have you, do you work with a coach? How do you come up with your training protocol? Yeah, I do. I think coaching is, is a very valuable tool. Michael Jordan had a coach and everybody has a coach.

I can't trust myself to manage me in that way. I've benefited greatly from having Marshall Ulrich in my Rolodex. He doesn't have time to be

full-time coach, but I certainly bounce all of my training by him or through him and get his input on it. You know, like when I did a 12-hour treadmill run recently where I tried to set the world record on that, and I bounced that by Marshall. I didn't know that. He's like, you've got to do your

back-to-back long runs on the treadmill, and I'm like, damn it, he's right. But I would have never done that myself. Hold on a second. You tried to break the 12-hour treadmill record? Yeah. How'd that go? When did you do that?

I said the American one. Oh, you did? Well, it depends. I mean, there's a couple different sources that track all of the different stuff. So I was going for the Guinness record. And it was, quite honestly, kind of a soft record. So I knew it was kind of some low-hanging fruit. It was like 63 miles, and I was going to try to run 72, 73 miles, which was decent. And what happened is two days before it, somebody else broke the record.

And so they reported that he had run 90 miles. So I was like, you know, I had all my friends out at my gym and I had this big thing set up. And I was like, that's all right. I'm just going to go do the best I can. I wasn't doing it just for the recognition. I was doing it to test myself. And I ran 74.5 miles, something like that.

Turns out that the numbers were reported wrong and he'd only run 76 miles. Oh! So, yeah. miles something like that turns out that the numbers were reported wrong and he'd only run 76 miles so so yeah oh my god yeah that kind of sucked you got to do it again i am in january you are all right cool and when you want when you want it to be guinness certified that's a whole thing it is the certification you pay a ton of money and they want all sorts of people out. I know when Patrick Baboumian wanted to break that most weight carry, it was a whole thing to make sure that it was all copacetic and above. It was going to meet the requirements to qualify for that because it's pretty stringent, right? It is. It's really strict.

You don't have to give them a bunch of money if you don't want to, but it speeds the process up. You know what I mean? They'll, like, you know, certify the record right away, and they'll send someone out, and you can use their logos and marketing and all that. But, no, we had to have, like, the whole thing had to be video recorded, and I needed witnesses and judges and, you know, obviously the treadmill.

You had to calibrate the treadmill and all that kind of stuff. Yeah. So there's another place called, like like recordholders.org that tracks it. According to their information, I think I ran like the third best time by an American. Nice, man. According to Guinness, it was. That's insane. Yeah.

That's so cool. For a former fat guy. Right. That's incredible, man. But, I mean, there's so many other people who have run so much farther than that out there. Listen, there's always somebody who's done some crazier thing, especially now in the ultra world. Like, you know, look, man, you know, there's no end of nutty. There's always someone crazier.

You know what I mean? If you can find, you know, a stone that's unturned in that world, then that's a stone worth overturning, I think. So, all right. So a couple Leadville's, Badwater 2013, and then you went back to Badwater this year. Yeah. Things didn't quite go as planned. I mean, what's next? Like what's getting you out of bed?

What's motivating you? Like what is that stone that's left unturned out there for you? Well, to me, it's to stay in the game and to, to, to keep in the process, right? Um, I would say, you know, my running, my journey, it's not supposed to be anything. It just is what it is. So I just want to keep going, um, whatever that means. So I'm always aware and looking around for, for new things to do. And I do have something kind of big plan for, for next year. It's my 10th sober birthday. So I wanted to do. And I do have something kind of big planned for next year. It's my 10th sober birthday. So I wanted to do something kind of special for that.

Something I wasn't prepared on. You're like, you got a little smile. I can tell you don't really want to tell me, but you kind of do. I'll tell you. I'll tell you. So I decided that I was going to go try to run the Leadville 100 twice. I was going to do the double. Whoa.

And the reason why I haven't put it out there is not because I'm afraid of it or anything. It's out there now. Well, it will be when I publish it. No, that's fine. I've talked to people about it. No, go ahead. Sorry. But people have done double bad water, triple bad water, quad bad water, all that.

But no one's done Leadville. Nobody's done a double Leadville? No one's done it. Wow. So I'm sure someone will come along and do it really, really fast. But that's okay. I'd like to be the first person to do it. But if someone comes up out there and does it at the same time I do, then we'll just

share the trail together. But I hope no one does it.'s pretty cool man that's a big deal yeah exciting yeah so wait wait when is leadville again august august okay so you got a little time it must be training pretty hard right now though i've got a javelina 100 in a few days, and I got the treadmill run planned, too, in January. And I'll be back at Badwater, too. We're a little unsure exactly when it's going to be with the new changes to the park. Yeah, interesting. Yeah, in 2013, you ran what is probably the last time that anyone will run that original course. I think it actually is going to be back in the original course. Oh, really? Yeah, in 2013 you ran what is probably the last time that anyone will run that original course.

I think it actually is going to be back in the original course. Oh, really? Yeah, it's just going to be different because the new study they did and everything won't let them do it between June and July or something. I don't want to misquote the study, but they can't have it in the hottest part of the year. So they could have it in August then instead or something? Yeah, they're going to do something and no one really knows what yet. It's kind of hush-hush. I don't know.

But hopefully it's not, you know, the week before Leadville or something like that. Right, right. I mean, what was the biggest difference that you noticed from the course change from 13 to 14? It was just a different race and it was a great race. It was put on really well. It was really challenging, super challenging. But, you know, it was hot, but not bad water hot.

And the heat came late in the day, which definitely posed different challenges. And the first, like, 23 miles was straight uphill. Right, that was the thing. Yeah. Well, that's kind of my problem. I ran the first 46 miles in like eight hours this year. Right. And then just kind of fell apart like at the worst possible time.

There's another big climb that goes up like 5,000 feet over seven miles. And there's no crew access or anything. You're just kind of out there. And that's when I was really suffering. Just another learning experience. That's it. You know, got to go back. Unfinished business.

That's right. We got to wrap this up soon. How long have we been going? Oh, man, we're over two hours. But I want to get back to this idea of transformation, of reinvention. transformation of reinvention you know you went from this place of complete despair complete uh you know disrepair in your health to you know attempting guinness book of world record you know holding runs i mean the arc is is just mind-blowing so for somebody who's out there listening, you know, what is, what is something that you could leave us with

to try to help that person out there who's stuck, who can't take that first step or just is paralyzed, you know, knows that there's a better life for him or her out there and can't see their way through it um my advice would be that you don't have to see it you know in fact you probably won't be able to ever see it from the views obstructed right you can't see it from where you are that you have to trust that there is a way out and that it's not always going to seem hopeless. And you just have to take that blind first step forward. And that's why this ultra thing speaks so well to me because the process is the same. You know, the process was the same to wake up on my bathroom floor and say, I'm going

to give this all up as it is to line up for bad water. You know, if you try to hold the weight of it, it'll crush you and fold you up. You know, you can't do it. So you've got to trust the process and just be willing to not wrestle every single voice, every single thought down into the process when you talked about that arc. You know, I became a runner and did all these things after I found sobriety. And I did that because I changed kind of my image of who I was. I decided I was a different person. But then I realized that I had also pigeonholed who I was as a runner, too.

And I was, I'm just doing this, you know, because, you know, I'm always going to be slow. I used to joke, you know, I'm, I'm, I start out slow and then I taper off and, you know, all this kind of stuff. And I was like, well, maybe that's not true either. You know, maybe, maybe, maybe that's just a bunch of crap I sold myself too. So, you know, I'm going to put it out there and just see what happens. And if I'm, if I can't be any faster, that's fine, But I'm not going to not be faster because I decided I was before I ever tried it. So don't decide who you are because of where you are right now. That's beautifully put. I think that the approach that I take to sobriety is the same approach that I take to food, is the same approach that I take to training. And what you learn in recovery is, as stupid as it sounds, and it's really fucking stupid, it's one day at a time, man.

It's about making sure that my head hits that pillow tonight sober, and that's all I got to worry about. In the context of food, what am I eating right now? What's my next meal? In the context of training, what's the run or the ride that I'm doing today? If I start thinking about some crazy race, you know, you just get, you get scared, you get stuck. You start running stories and scenarios in your mind that, you know, probably are not productive. or not productive. So I find it super helpful to just be in the moment of what you're doing and getting comfortable with the idea that you don't know where it's going, nor should you. It's like part of that surrender is saying, I'm not going to drink today. I don't know what that

means, but that's not what I, I'm not somebody who drinks. I'm not doing that today. And it's not what you say, it's what you do. And when you wake up every day and you go running, or you wake up every day and you don't take a drink, then you string that together over a little period of time. And the story about who you are begins to change. And the way that people interact with you begins to change. And how you start to feel about who you are begins to change. Absolutely. Yeah. It's beautiful. And then a whole new journey takes place, right? You learn something you don't know about yourself. David Clark, you are an inspiration, man. This was awesome. Thank you so much.

Thanks, man. For coming down. I really appreciate it. The book is called Out There and you can find it everywhere. It's on Amazon, right? Yes. In book is called Out There, and you can find it everywhere. It's on Amazon, right? Yes. It's in bookstores. Use the Amazon banner ad at richroll.com to pick it up. I highly recommend it. It's an amazing story of, like I said before, despair to triumph.

It's pretty cool. I can't wait to see what you're going to do next, man. Thanks, bud. And if people want to connect with you, what's the best way for them to do that? You can find me on Twitter at WeAreSuperman. You can also email me at supermaninside at me.com. So we didn't even talk about that. I mean, you have this Superman Foundation, but did you rename it the Hero Foundation?

Or I couldn't figure out which one it is yeah we had we had talked we were starting to get some some pushback that the name was not going to be okay but it turns out we're okay with that okay um we just changed our logo and stuff like that so it's the superman project um it's a small coaching resource more than anything just a fellowship you know um Anyone who's looking at doing something crazy like training for a marathon or an ultra marathon or climbing a mountain, they can shoot us an email and we'll write them a training plan and give them some support. I've said all along that ultimately the most power that the story has is if it's not just me. I'm not the only one with this story, especially sitting here talking to you. There's lots of people with this story. I just get lucky enough to be able to talk about it a lot.

If it's just one person, it's, oh, that guy's special. He's just stubborn or whatever. He's got something that I don't, but that's just not the way it is. There's a lot of us out there, and so the more the merrier. If you're out there running and doing crazy things and experiencing life and you want some other people to do it with, we're there. Very cool, man. All right, David.

Thanks so much. Right on. Peace. Yeah. Plants. All right, everybody. I hope you enjoyed that. If David doesn't make you question your own glass ceiling, then you know what?

I'm just not sure what will. Maybe check your pulse for a heartbeat. Before I sign off with this week's assignment, a couple quick announcements. You heard David explain the difference it made in his health and in his running when he adopted a plant-centric approach to his diet. Well, if you want to learn more about how you can do the same, a good place to do that would be to check out my online course. It's called The Ultimate Guide to Plant-Based Nutrition, and you can find it at mindbodygreen.com. guide to plant-based nutrition, and you can find it at mindbodygreen.com. It's three plus hours of streaming video content, downloadable tools, and an interactive community. Basically, everything you need to get more plants into your active life and take your athleticism to the next level. You also heard David talk about how he achieved his goals. So if you're feeling stuck and you're

just not sure how to exactly move forward in the direction of your dreams or unlock a better version of yourself, well, I got a course for that as well. It's called The Art of Living with Purpose. It's all about the inside work. It's about goal setting and potential achieving. And this one is a little over two hours of streaming video content, downloadable tools, resources, interactive support, also at mindbodygreen.com. So for both of these courses, just click the menu tab video courses, which you can find at the top of the homepage at mindbodygreen.com and you can learn more. And of course, at richroll.com, we got nutritional products, we have a digital e-cookbook, we have a meditation program, we got merch. We got t-shirts,

all kinds of good stuff. So find out more about that at richroll.com. And don't forget to subscribe to my newsletter for a free seven recipe download and to stay clued in to what's what. I will not spam you. Basically one email a week. That's it. Just good stuff. And big announcement, we have a cookbook coming out this spring. I've been pretty tight-lipped about it. Just good stuff. And big announcement. We have a cookbook coming out this spring. I've been pretty tight lipped about it. And I'm going to be telling you more about it soon. But for now, just know that it is amazing. This past week, I've been locking down the manuscript.

Julie's been double testing all the recipes and we're pretty locked in. It's going to be coming out at the end of April. We've been super hard at work finishing it, and I could not be more excited. It's going to be really cool. It's a gorgeous lifestyle primer, almost like a coffee table book that you can use in the kitchen, but you'd also feel proud to kind of leave out for everybody to page through. It's a very family friendly approach to the plant-based lifestyle with 120 plus incredible recipes, extraordinary photography, and lifestyle guidelines to take you, your kids, your whole family to the next level of wellness. So I'm going to be making announcements about the book and special pre-order incentives and all that kind of good stuff, filling you in

more as the new year approaches. But I just wanted to kind of plant that seed for now. And please, if you haven't already, give us a review, a review, a blah, blah, blah, a review on iTunes. It only takes two seconds, you guys. Come on, hook us up, please. If you're in LA, please, please, please stop by our new restaurant, Joy Cafe, J-O-I Cafe.

It's fueling, awesome. We're in Westlake Village off Agora Road. Take the Westlake Village exit off the 101. If you're in the Los Angeles area, you want to learn more about the restaurant, go to joycafe.com, J-O-I-C-A-F-E.com. I eat lunch there a couple of times a week, three or four, maybe the occasional dinner. So good chance that if you stop in, you just might find me there. So even if I'm not there, say hi to Nick and Joy, the feet on the ground, the ones who are really running the restaurant,

get some delicious food, engage them in conversation and leave feeling great. And also get my app. The iTunes catalog for the podcast only lists the most 50, the recent most 50, the 50 most recent episodes of the podcast, which means there's 63 out there that you can't get on iTunes. And the only way to access the entire catalog, other than kind of poking around my website, is to get the iOS app in the iTunes app store. It's

totally free. And it's the only way to easily access every single episode in the RRP canon, the RRP of, and give us a review. If you just go to the iTunes app store and type in Rich Roll, you'll find it there totally free. And I got a banner ad at richroll.com for the app as well. Thank you for supporting the show. Continue to tell your friends, continue to use the Amazon banner ad. You can donate to the show and keep Instagramming. Just don't forget to tag me, at Rich Roll. All right, let's close it down with this week's assignment. This week, I want you guys to really focus

on your journaling. I want you to journal every morning this week before you start your day. And the focus should be on identifying your limiters. Ask yourself the hard questions. What is holding me back from change? What is holding me back from change? What is holding me back from improvement? What is holding me back from moving forward

in the trajectory and the direction of achieving my dreams? I want you to think about that David Goggins quote that I gave you at the top of the episode. And I want you to think about David Clark and what he faced and overcame. Use that as fuel for your fire. What can you learn about how he changed that is applicable to your experience? Because generally, we're our own worst enemies, right?

And at the end of this week of this long probe of journaling every day, I want you to make a list of the top five or top 10 things you tell yourself about what you can and more importantly, what you can't do that are holding you back. I want you to pick the biggest limiter and I want you to start unpacking it. I want you to deconstruct it. And I want you to get to that place where you understand objectively that that story isn't reality. It's just that. It's a story you tell yourself based upon some life experience that you decided at some point consciously or unconsciously to attach meaning to. And then I want you to take an action that flies in the face of that old tale and start

forming a new reality for yourself. All right, you guys, until next week, peace, plants.