The Rich Roll Podcast - How To Cultivate Extraordinary Relationships & The Power of Neutrality In Navigating Conflict

Episode Date: July 16, 2015

I don't how long we've been together — 17 years? 16? — but I do know that Julie and I just celebrated our 12th wedding anniversary. It's been a wild, and at times astonishing ride. So suffice it to say, the subject of relationships is on my mind. So how does one attract, cultivate, nurture and sustain a relationship that isn't just healthy and intimate but is in fact extraordinary? This week's installment of Ask Me Anything is devoted to just this issue. This conversation explores: * the transformational aspects of relationships * destiny & fate in selecting a mate * human love versus divine love * prioritizing self-development * the primacy of commitment * the significance of complementary core values * the power of neutral compassion & observance * the practice of taking contrary action Special thanks to Jeremy Bell for this week’s questions and Jason for his fan letter. The show concludes with I'm Here Now, written and performed by Julie (aka SriMati), accompanied by our sons Tyler & Trapper Piatt. I sincerely hope you enjoy the conversation. How do you define an extraordinary relationship? Let me know in the comment section below. Peace + Plants, Rich

It is not up to your partner to make you feel good about yourself or make you feel worthy or realized or heard or loved. And if you release all of that nonsense between two people, a lot of the problems in the relationship simply disappear. That is the lovely Julie Pyatt, and this is another edition of Ask Me Anything on the Rich Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey everybody, what are you doing? What's going on? Hey, everybody. What are you doing? What's going on? Back on the podcast. It's Rich Roll here,

your host. And I'm here with Julie today, Julie Pyatt, the lovely Julie Pyatt, my wife. Say hello. Hi, everyone. This is another edition of Ask Me Anything on the RRP. So thanks for stopping by, you guys. We're back already. We are back already. So if you've been listening all along, then you know what this show is all about. Usually my typical shtick week in, week out is I engage the best, most pioneering, paradigm-breaking, and often revolutionary minds and personalities that span the full spectrum of health, wellness, fitness, medicine, nutrition, spirituality, psychology, athletic performance, inspiration, excellence, anything else?

Did I miss any category? I think you've covered it. And why do I do this? Well, I do this so that we can mine the insights provoked to help all of us live and be better and ultimately help us all unlock and unleash our best, most authentic selves. So, what can I say? This is a diversion on that theme, I guess, because this is the question and answer version of the podcast.

Staying true to the two episodes per week format, we're back at you with more questions and more subjects to talk about. And I think probably the best way to kick it off is to let you guys know that Julie and I just yesterday celebrated our 12th anniversary. Of marriage. Of being married in wedded bliss. But we've been together many years in addition to that. How many before that? Four years before?

It's murky. It's murky. It's a little unclear. What's the year? 2015? Is that the year? Yeah. Okay.

I think it was like 98, 99. I don't think 98, 99 maybe. It's 16 or 17. I'm not sure. Really? This is what happens when you yeah you're approaching 50 excuse me what you're approaching 50 yeah i'm approaching 50 so that's why i said it's murky i'm speaking from he's very murky i'm speaking about myself too many podcasts yeah i know anyway

um but yeah so so we had been together for several years before we got married. Actually, we were married in a private ceremony by a Mexican shaman with a huge fire. Remember that? Yeah, we've had lots of, you know, sort of ceremonies around our relationship that I guess you could fairly characterize as alternative weddings leading up to the wedding. No, but we had one specific one that was specifically a wedding with just you and me. We didn't tell anybody. We were in Mexico at Hotel Lito and it was a yoga retreat, right? And there was like a shaman and we did like a sweat lodge and then we did, and then he performed a ceremony. So technically that's when we got married. I can't remember what year that was, though. I can't either. See?

So you're murky, too. Who cares? All right. So anyway, but here we are. And in our Western culture, we will mark reflection on our relationship and how we got there. And there seems to be growing interest in our relationship and how we make it work. So I think kind of thematically, you know, on a top level, you know, sort of way, we want to talk about relationships today and uh mind that subject a little bit right let's go in how are you feeling about being married to me for that long i'm feeling really good about it is it good yeah i think it's great you don't want out

are you looking for the back door not not now not right now this moment anytime i'm not saying i never i've never had that moment. Okay. But no, that's not true. Actually, I joke, but I'm actually... What's not true? That you haven't been looking for the exit? No, no. Looking for the exit is kind of over.

I mean, exit from what? I don't know. From this whole dynamic. From relationship, that if you could just break away, then it could be better. And be free. No, I mean, I think that, no, no, no. I think that we've experienced a lot of amazing transformation together. And the big transformation happens when you're in a relationship.

You know, it can be difficult difficult it can be grueling and it can uh it can draw you to uh to a precipice but it's um it's harder than living on your own and and uh just doing whatever you you want to do all the time yeah i think in recovery they say if you want to if you want to get uh very with your character defects, get in a relationship. Because suddenly they'll all percolate to the surface very quickly. And if you're alone, you don't have to face that stuff. There's no feedback. Yeah, and I mean, it would be like in a yogi sense, like, you know, in a cave, it's easy to be enlightened.

But it's a lot harder to be enlightened in the world when you're having to deal with people, you know, there are other aspects of that that are also difficult. Like, you know, there's, you know, there, there are positives and negatives, or I guess things that are more difficult and easier in both scenarios. What's, what's more difficult about being alone? Well, more difficult about being alone would be being, you know, being alone, like, you know, so there's something that's, I think, as human beings, at least in general, we like to be connected, you know, we like intimacy. We like to be able to share our lives with people. I think there's a lot of research that, you know, people live longer that are in

healthy, committed relationships. And you can correct me if you think that I've misspoken, but I think that's sort of common knowledge. And, and so I think that it would be those things, you know, I imagine living in a cave, you know, has its drawbacks. Yeah, I would imagine. Has its downside. I mean, just to set the stage. I mean, I think that that, you know, I posted on Instagram and Facebook, like a picture of you and just saying, you know, celebrating 12 years of marriage. And, you know, basically, it's a drastic understatement to say that you've made me a better man. I just said a bunch of nice stuff, right?

And so then you get on. Did you mean it? Did you see it? No, I did, honey. It was beautiful. Thank you very much. But then you get a bunch, there's a? Did you see it? No, I did, honey. It was beautiful. Thank you very much. But then you get a bunch, there's a bunch of comments, right? And now because we're doing the podcast together more and you're much more out in the world, you know, than you were when I wrote Finding Ultra, people are getting to know you better. And there seems to be a lot more interest in our relationship. And people are saying, oh, you're this power couple. You're, you know, your relationship is so inspiring and all that kind of stuff.

And I think it's easy to project on that, this idea that, you know, we just, it's just been smooth sailing the entire time and that we've never had our, you know, our bumps along the road. And I think that would be, you know, a drastic mischaracterization of the arc of our relationship. That would not be true or authentic. Right. So, so, you know, why don't we like piece that together a little bit to provide like the

landscape and then talk about, you know, how, how we think of and, and kind of advise people who come to us with questions about relationships. Do you think we should have had a therapist here to mediate this public therapy session we're about to embark on? It would have been a huge fight.

No. That would be good podcasting. That would be fantastic reality TV. No, I'm actually not a huge advocate of couples therapy, and I can get into that later. But no, we'll do this face to face. Right. I think we're in a groove right now, and we're aligned, and we're seeing the world, you know, through a similar lens. But it wasn't always that way. And anybody who knows our story knows that, you know, when we first got together, I was in a very different place and our interests, you know, sort of were starting to diverge a little bit, at least with respect to my lifestyle habits, I suppose, and things you were interested in versus what I was interested in. And, and I have changed, I've changed a lot. Right. Um, and, and so how do you get from a,

you know, A to Z on that? You're asking me? Yeah. Well, let's, let's retrace it a little bit. Well, I mean, so, so beginning when, like when, when you, when we met in a yoga class and you presented to me that you were spiritually inclined? I was spiritually inclined. That's why I'm sitting here right now interested in all these things, right? I'm teasing. It's harder for a guy. It's harder for a guy. Yeah.

So, no, I met you in a yoga class And the reason that I was in a yoga class was to meet me. Well, it was twofold. Yeah, it was to meet you. But I was, you know, fresh out of rehab. And I'd been given a toolbox of, you know, sort of different ways of approaching my life. And, and yoga was something that I wanted to explore to kind of expand my horizons. And now look, it didn't hurt that the yoga class was packed with beautiful women. And that was certainly alluring, you know, and that got me to make sure that I made the class every evening. But it takes motivation. It's the same reason, like I picked out certain AA meetings where I know, you know, there'd be a lot of young people

and attractive women, like whatever it takes to get you to the meeting. Right. And now I don't, I don't approach it the same way, but that was my entry point. And, you know, I wouldn't have started going to yoga had I not had some, you know, base level of interest in that. And I remember at the time I was working in, you know, a corporate law firm and I was miserable. And I remember that I would, uh, even if my work wasn't done, like I would leave my suit jacket on my chair and just leave, you know, Century City at four o'clock or whatever, you know, wait many, many hours before I was meant to and go to Santa Monica and go to a yoga class. Sometimes I'd come back to my office, but I wouldn't tell anyone where I went. I was just sort of escaping. And I knew that somehow, for some reason, that I would find answers by, you know, sort of pursuing this path or this quest, right?

And I did meet you there. And now here we are, right? But I think it's also fair to say that once I met you that my interest in yoga was, you know, somewhat diminished. It waned. It waned a little bit. It waned slightly. Well, it's the ebb and flow of my life, right? I go in and out of being interested in certain things that are probably more prominently a part of your life than they are of mine. And I think that I got very – at the time, I was very intent upon repairing all the wreckage that I had created as a result of my drinking and using.

And I wanted to get my career back on track. And I was very attached to, you know, this, this sort of illusion or myth of the American dream. Like I have to, you know, make my way in the world professionally and I've got to achieve these certain things and prove to everybody that, you know, I'm worthy and, and, and be, you know, self-sufficient and self-supporting and all that kind of stuff. But I was doing it in a way that was like contrary to I think my authentic self, right? So it was a process of jamming a square peg

into a round hole for many, many years and not reaping really the rewards that were promised and becoming progressively more disenchanted and resentful as a result of that process. And so to compensate for that, I would act out in other ways that didn't involve drinking or using drugs. And, you know, my first drug of choice, both before and after my drinking has been food, right? So I would, you know, gorge on fast food as a way of modulating and medicating my emotional state. And you were sort of standing on the sidelines observing that.

And for years trying to, you know, kind of assist me or aid me with providing me perhaps a better way of approaching these issues, but to no avail. Yes, it fell on deaf ears, for sure. But getting back to the room before we go into this, because I'm trying to touch on more what are the aspects of fate or what are the aspects of destiny? You know, destiny when you look at like a love relationship or people talk about soulmates. I refer to you as my soulmate, my heart and soulmate. So, what was it about, what quality was it in you when you said, you posted last night,

the first time you saw me, you knew that I was your partner? Pete Yeah, I did. So, what, explain that. Like, what was the sense in you? What were you drawing upon? How did you, how could you know that? I was just a physical form in a class. Yeah, I don't know what it was. I mean, it's a room full of beautiful women. But for some reason, you stood out.

You had this beautiful lithe body. And you had these enticing orange and blue sort of strands in your hair. And I just, I don't know, I was fixated on it. And I was like, I just couldn't, I couldn't move my attention off of it for some inexplicable reason. I mean, certainly there was sexual attraction, right? Like I was attracted to you in a physical way, but I'd never spoken to you. So I didn't know anything about your personality or your circumstance. I didn't know that you were getting out of a marriage. I didn't know that you had children. I just knew like I was allured by your presence. And I just felt this gravitational pull that it, that was it really. I couldn't put, put any more of it to words other

than that. And this persisted over the entire, I think it was an eight month or a year period before you and I exchanged any real words. Yeah, I bided my time. I was playing the long game. You were playing the very long game. I played the long game, yeah. Always the ultra endurance athlete. Right, exactly. I just completely ultra manned the whole thing.

That's funny so but so i mean that's very very interesting to me and it's it's something the reason that i that i bring it up to to talk about it is because it was um you know i saw you in the room i knew you're in the room uh you know we had mutual friends and uh we kind of had a cool community that we were hanging out with and sort, even though I wasn't speaking to you directly, there would be peripheral parties or dinners or things where you might be there, sort of in the back somewhere. But then later, when we met on a yoga retreat, actually,

I was at the retreat. You were late getting there. You came up like a day late and you arrived. It was like a hippie yoga retreat in Santa Barbara. And I remember just thinking, oh, there's Rich. And all right, so may I go talk to him, say hi. And we struck up a conversation. And within a half hour, I knew that I knew you, like, in a much deeper way.

Yeah, but if you had to articulate what that was, what is that? Well, for me, I mean, for me, it was that I knew you from other lifetimes. I mean, it was a familiarity. I mean, you can talk about that familiar thing. You know how you meet people and you're like, I feel like I know that person. But, I mean, this was very strong. And I was a little bit annoyed and a little bit like taking a breath because it was not my plan. I didn't want to get in a relationship at that time.

I was getting out of a 10-year marriage. And my plan was to date whoever I wanted, when I wanted, and to just not be in a relationship. And then when I met you, when I spoke to you, I was like, oh, like, this is a marrying guy. This isn't a dating guy. Well, just to be clear, you know, I had different plans as well. You know, I'd gotten out of a, you know, cataclysmic wedding slash marriage scenario that wounded me terribly. And I was in no hurry to get into a relationship, which I think is part of why i played the long game but also you know on paper you know my intention was i'm gonna find you know somebody who's younger than me somebody with no baggage and just simple and you know that's what i was looking for and you know here was somebody who was older than me

she was getting divorced she had children i, it couldn't be more complicated. Like, you know, the warning sign should have been like run in the other direction from somebody like that. That was like the last thing that I felt like I needed at that time, especially since I was newly sober. I had a year of sobriety and I was still in the process of piecing my life back together. So to invite somebody into my equation with, you know, perhaps on a surface level, somebody you could say who, you know, was navigating their own sort of life issues just didn't seem wise, right? Right. And on the other side of that, me... But that's not how it works.

Yeah, but on the other side of that, me being the mother of two young boys, and you being with only a year of sober days, okay. So it's not a good idea at all. Right. I mean, there's nothing logical about that. I mean, why would I invite that? Where was the stability there? Where was there, you know, when, you know, there was no promise of, of anything really. Right. So the point is it didn't make sense at all, but you know, this is not how these things work. right? And so here we are 12 years later. And like I said, we've had our ups and downs. And, you know, we had moments where we didn't think we were going to make it. And that was precipitated by,

you know, clash and personality and also fueled by, you know, external issues like, you know, financial duress and the like. But somehow we were able to, you know, get to the other side. Hold on. I have to just do a timeout here. We never were going to break up over financial duress. That's true. Ever. So that was never the issue. When you're under financial duress, it puts strain on both people, which allows other things to kind of flare up. But to be clear, we were unified after that point. So, there was never a time in our entire dark night of transformation that either one of us were thinking of bailing. This happened before the financial collapse, right?

That's when we were questioning. Yeah, that's true. So what, what in your mind precipitated that? Well, I mean, there was, there was only one, there was only one moment. I mean, it was, it was, I think it was my frustration with, with your inability to embody positive life habits that centered around food, that centered around being fearless, connected to yourself at a deeper level. you know connected to yourself at a deeper level um i think it was those really those issues and the fact that this whole thing was causing this paralysis it was causing it you know it was causing it in your career it was causing it in many different areas and it was not changing and so this is the period that i described when i was you know begging you to take my hand. Like I tried everything. I tried cheering for you, reasoning with you, you know, intellectualizing with you,

screaming at you, threatening you. I tried every single thing I possibly could. It didn't work. It didn't work. And then I think one, you know, just one moment, I can't remember exactly what the exact catalyst was, but I believe Mathis was a young baby, and I believe I asked you to leave, to actually leave the house. And it was, I think we lasted a day. Yeah, I left for a day and I came back the next afternoon.

That's right. left for a day and I came back the next afternoon. So, you know, I mean, that was like, you know, that was our defining moment of whether we were going to stay together or not. Yeah, it definitely was. And I mean, I had come from, I had been in a, in a very, very karmic, ugly, horrifying, physically abusive relationship that it went on and off and on for a seven-year period of during which I was actually free of it for a year and a half in the center of it. And then my following marriage, it was this fairy tale, beautiful marriage, which produced my boys. It was of a certain level of awareness. It was very beautiful and it completed. There was no more work to be done in that relationship this lifetime.

So, it completed. And here I was, you know, with you again, married again with a young child. And, you know, I had to really, really look deep in my heart. Like, what about this man? You know, is this, you know, can I weather through these other details or am I going to go, are we going to go our own way? And I think at that time, it became very clear to me that I did not want to split from you. I was clear about that. Pete And then when did the epiphany come in of this idea that you speak of, of divine love and letting go and allowing me to my process? That was really the energy shift that allowed me to then flip the mirror and take responsibility and make the change that was the sort of you know, where we are now. I want to say in my intuition that I believe that when we split up was somewhere in the month of February. And when I actually received that teaching and it actually came into me fully,

might have been August. So, it was some preparatory months, like still some months of us trying to figure it out. And yeah, so maybe, I don't know, six to eight months after that. Right, right, right. Okay. And so all of this is kind of foundational to, you know, this is the Ask Me Anything Q&A episode, right? So there isn't one specific question, but we've gotten a lot of email. Well, Julie has one that we're going to get to in a minute. But basically, you know, there's been a lot of emails that have come in that kind of address in general terms.

You know, how do you know when you should break up with someone? And how do you know when, like you said, a relationship has been completed and it's time to move on? has been completed and it's time to move on? Well, I think that, I mean, everything's so unique, but I think it's at least clear to me that there has to be some common, I can only speak to what were the things about between you and me that made me know that I wanted to stick it out. The things were that we shared a lot of the same interests, that we enjoy each other on a daily basis, moment to moment to moment. We have a similar humor. We share creative tastes. We kind of like to do some of the same things in life. I mean, some of the

things are very, very different. But I guess I kind of felt like of all the people that I knew in the world, I liked hanging out with you. Like, I enjoy hanging out with you. And I think the second thing that was very, very key for me as well is the depth and the authenticity and the intimacy of our sexual connection was definitely key. We're going to go there. Okay. Well, we have to, right?

I mean, isn't that the... Yeah. Well, I think... So, I think the litmus test is, if you really want to drill down on this, is, you know, a lot of these questions come in and they're really about, like, I'm in a relationship and I'm really into kind of, well, whether it's... It doesn't matter what it is, but let's say, you know, a lot of them are around food and wellness. Like I'm into, you know, I'm into the message that you're putting out. I'm trying to get healthy

and I'm focused on this and my partner or my husband or my wife or whatever, whoever it is, is not interested, right? They're not into it. And I feel like we're not connecting. And, you know, I don't know if I can tolerate this any longer and how can I get them to come and see my way of things or come to my side? And I think really the test is if you can get to that place of divine love where you say, I don't need this person to change and I can love them exactly how they are, detached from any need or desire for them to be any different than they are. Like if you can truly embrace that idea, then that would be a good

indication that that's somebody that you can stay with, right? But if you feel like you just can't, like this person is, it's just intolerable for you to be in a relationship with someone who is not going to do X, Y, or Z, and it's not going to work for you, then that would dictate the alternative. Yeah, and I think that something that all of us will find, and I think the listeners will find, is that we have this condition in human love where we meet somebody we project an image onto them of who we think they are and then some years later or some months later when they turn out not to be that fantasy projection that we created within ourselves then we get disillusioned with them angry with them and oh you know you're not who I thought you were. And it's really this moment of insanity. But if you can look at your relationship, and you can stop the practice of expecting your partner

to fulfill yourself, to fulfill your happiness in many, many different areas, it is not up to your partner to make you feel good about yourself or make you feel worthy or realized or heard or loved. And if you release all of that nonsense between two people, and then I think a lot of the problems in the relationship simply disappear from simply doing that. And how do you do that? In my case, you do that by developing a spiritual practice. So, the relationship with God or the creative force or divine mother or whatever you want to call it, creation, the universe, that's the first relationship. And then the marriage is below that. So, it's almost like you put yourself first and you understand that. One thing I used to tell myself when I would get frustrated with, you know, finances or whatever is in whatever the thing is, but in relationship to you and me is

that you are not my source. I am a creation of God and source is my source. God is my source. So, eliminating that already relieves probably at least 50% of the issues. I think so many of us are in relationships and we're looking at our partner like you're supposed to make me feel like X. Right. Well, it's like the line in Jerry Maguire, like you complete me. Right. And I think we have an epidemic, you know, wherein people are searching for that person who are, you know, that is going to be the solution to whatever ails them, right? So, if I can just get that boyfriend or that girlfriend, then I'll be happy or, you know, that will fulfill me and then I'll feel like a whole person. And that's a lot of energy and pressure to put on another person that ultimately is going to disappoint you. It's not going to work. That endeavor, right? And that disappointment is going to lead to resentment and anger and

it's going to fuel all kinds of problems, right? think it is going back to and look this is the first thing that you learn in in sobriety this is what i learned in in in rehab like your relationship with your higher power has to come before everything it comes before you know your relationship your job your kids everything and it sounds like a selfish thing. Like, how could you put that before, you know, the person that I love, but that is the, that is the way to being self-sufficient and content within yourself so that you can then bring something to the relationship to contribute to it. You know, and I think it's also a perspective of what are you contributing to the relationship as opposed to what are you getting out of it? Like, what am I going to get out of being with this person? How is this person going to make me feel better? Yeah. Yeah. And I think that, you know, what we always say about, you know, turning the

magnifying glass back on yourself, like in any situation, the only thing you can control is what is going on within your own being. So by turning the focus on yourself, you can be committed to your self-development, your evolution. You can, you know, strive and reach and reach deeper within through meditation and then, you know, attempt to create more and more things, you know, more and more experiences, I would say. And the answer is always within. It's never in another person. The answer to your unrest, or the answer to your happiness, or the answer to your creative connection, the answer to your love is within yourself. And one thing that I discovered, which was really very profound for me is that I don't believe that there is one soulmate for each of us on the planet. I believe there are many. And I guess, being that I've been married three times, I am a relationship expert. So,

everybody listen up. No, I've had three weddings. No, I, what, this is what I discovered. I discovered through, and I've been in love more times than three times because I've had some serious relationships. And I think overall that I've truly been in love maybe five or six times. Now I'm starting to feel bad about myself. Sorry, don't honey. I love you, but I'm with you now. But listen, it is, you know, the solution to every problem resides within yourself in the sense that, you know, you can't control other people. You can't control external circumstances. The only

thing you can do is control yourself, right? And you can control your experience of external events by modulating how you perceive them and how you react to them, right? So everything just is. There's no judgment on anything that's happening in the physical three-dimensional reality in which we all live our lives, right? And whether you're a happy person or a miserable person, all is dictated by how you process and perceive your environment, right? Because you're the one who's placing these judgments on everything, right? So to the extent that you can do that internal work, whether it's through meditation or whatever MO suits you best, that is the recipe for solving your dilemma, right? Because look, if externalities were the recipe to

happiness, then the richest people in the world or the most powerful people in the world or the longest married people or what have you would be the happiest people. But of course, we all know that that's not how it works. Some of the richest people, there's happy rich people, but there's miserable rich people, right? So it's all about how they perceive their environment. What is their relationship to the external world that dictates how they are going to experience that? And so the way out of whatever misery that you're feeling is to shift your perspective on it. And that can only be done by doing the heavy lifting of that internal work that we all don't want to do, right? We all want the hack, right? What's the

hack? Well, if I get the new car or I get the new job or I move to a different city. Or you get a new boyfriend. Or, yeah, or you go to the mall and you buy a new pair of jeans or, you know, a new pair of sneakers or whatever it is, you know, consumer decisions are driven by that. And Madison Avenue is well aware of this very human tendency. And they prey upon that to deliver this idea, this message that if you do indeed purchase this product, that it will inherently hold the solution to whatever ails you, right? And that is a delusion that most people just take to their grave. It's true. And it's sad and not connected and I think kind of empty. But getting back to the point that I was going to make before we went here.

You're acting like I interrupted you. I was just about ready to give my great morsel of wisdom. Okay. Well, you have to like cue me that. Okay. I didn't know that. No. So, anyway.

So, what I discovered from these relationships relationships, you know, the many relationships that I had and the fact that I had fallen in love so many times. And I think it was in the moment of my last divorce where I realized that, you know, my work in this life with my boy's father had come to, you know, a culmination. And I realized as I was meditating one evening, I realized that this love that I had experienced with all these different humans was in fact my love. It didn't belong to any of my partners it belonged to me it was emanating from me so the love that i felt when i met you and i fell in love with you it was like oh there it is my familiar friend my love it's mine so no matter what happens in your, no matter what partner you're with or what breakups you go through, no one can take that from you because it exists within you. And even at a deeper point, at a deeper place of awareness, you will discover that that is the essence of who you are, is pure love. So, within a relationship, you get to have that reflected back to you. You get to

experience that because you have somebody to like bounce it off, off of. And that's what we've done so beautifully together. And that's, you know, that's what's so meaningful about being in a relationship. And, you know, in thinking about your relationship with Lou, the boy's dad, you mentioned that, you know, after this 10 year period of being with him, that the relationship was complete, right? And I think it conjures up this idea of success and failure in relationships, right? And we feel like, you know, there's this social construct that if a relationship doesn't work out, that it's a failure, you know, and even though there was sort of a crossroads in which both of you realize that, you know, you were going to take other paths in your life. I know for a fact that you don't perceive that relationship as a failure, but you perceive it as a success, even though it did come to a conclusion.

And so I think it's important to, you know, reframe this idea of what a relationship is, can be, should be, or was, and really, you know, cast aside this idea of failure or success, right? Yeah. So that if a relationship, you know, relationships serve different purposes, you know, for like, as you say, for whom and when, right? A relationship that you were in many years ago might not suit you now. And every relationship that you engage in has some purpose. Now, whether that is a good purpose or a bad purpose, or in retrospect, you look back on it as saying that was a positive or negative experience for you. Certainly, by all accounts, it was a learning experience. And some relationships, just because you're in a relationship does not

dictate that that has to be a relationship you take to your grave, right? Well, I think the whole idea that, you know, again, like there's one soulmate that exists for you and you're going to fall in love and you're going to be together forever and you're going to, you know, ride away in the carriage and it's happily ever after. It's just not real. It's not, and don't get me wrong, I'm a very committed partner. You know, when I'm in a marriage, you can bet if I'm married, I'm really in it. That means I really love the person or I'm in a karmic hell that I'm working out, which that was an early part of my life. But I never thought that I would be married once. I don't know why, thank God. But to me, I have been in a series of very committed relationships that have been transformational in different ways. And why anybody would call a marriage a failure that lasted any amount of time, but in my my case you know 10 years and produced you know two

of the most beautiful beings i've ever come in contact with like how do you call that a failure it was not a failure was a massive success and it was true and real while it was happening but the difference with me is when it's complete i can't stay in it like i'm, it's like, when the work is done, or when our interaction is over, I can't stay in something and lie. I'm unable to do that. So, But I think a lot of people do. I mean, I think a lot of people stay in relationships way longer than they should, because there is this social contract that if you extricate yourself from it, that somehow that means that you failed, right? And you carry that scarlet letter around as if, you know, you did something bad, right?

But the truth is, that's not how it works. And, you know, many relationships out there, you know, persist longer than they should. And so, you know, if you're in a relationship that is not functional, and you can't get to that place of, you know, perhaps some level of divine love where you can accept your partner for who they are and believe that you're on a, you know, a mutual trajectory that is serving you both and you're both benefiting from that relationship, then, you know, I think it's okay to give yourself permission to exit. Of course. And it doesn't make, it doesn't, you know, your life is not a failure. You know, our life is a journey.

You know, it's not a game with an end point. You know, it's a process of becoming. And even my, you know, even my abusive relationship that was just wrought with, you know, so much dysfunction and so much darkness. I mean, really, really gnarly. You know, I don't know if I'll ever write about it. But even that, you know, I consider it an aspect of my mastery. It was a stage that I had to go through. And luckily I did and I persevered and I survived and I rose out of it and I never, never repeated the formula

again. Um, but it was a, it was a hell, a living hell on earth. There's no, there's no other way to, to talk about it. But, um, you can't, you know, your life is, is one whole process, you know, I can't, um, act, cut it out and act like it didn't happen. You know what I mean? Like it did. It's part of what led me to this moment. It's part of what allows me to understand, you know, I don't think that the goal is, you know, that you hang on for dear life with white knuckles to the end and say, you know, we made it and we were married 80 years, but we were miserable for 60. Right. Well, it raises a broader issue of, you know, this game of life, right? And there is this persistent notion that, you know, there are rules and, you know, hey, you know, you go to the good school and you get the good job with a good 401k and you get the house with the two cars. And, you know, as you kind of continue up this parameters, you know, you run the risk of being

socially ostracized and judged and all of these things as if it is this game where we're all trying to get to the destination intact without making any mistakes and do it cleanly and say, I played the game well, you know, but that's really not, you know, my evolution has been about dismantling that idea and learning that those those rules are really just a complete illusion. They're such a small, you know, that's such a small spectrum of the overall bandwidth of how you can live your life. And it's only internally that I would put my pressure on myself to say I have to, I have to follow these rules. And it's a relief when you can let go of that and say, nobody's in control here. There's no boss. You can make your

own rules, but it's your own fear and perhaps shame that holds you back, right? So you speak very freely about this relationship that you were in that was abusive and you do it without any shame. Whereas most people, that would be their deep, dark secret that they wouldn't talk about. And I think, you know, holding on to that, you know, if you kind of allow that to fester privately, that starts to come out sideways in other ways in your life, but you just, you own it, you talk about it freely and you've been able to leverage that as a growth experience, right? Because that's what we're here to do. We're here to grow.

Right. And I think that that goes back to applying a divine perspective to your entire life. You know, it's like I not only speak about it freely, I have no animosity or hatred or residual negativity that is living inside of me. So how did you get to that point? Well, it was rough in the beginning. It was pretty hard because I really suffered and I really had been emotionally and physically hurt. And, you know, I think at one point somebody asked me,

you know, someone asked me this question, well, how hard did he hit you? That was always one that kind of got me. And it's like, you know, when you've been, you know, any kind of abuse, like it doesn't matter. It's more the emotion, you know, of being like, let's just say, you know, that you were slapped on the face, you know, like by somebody, you know, abusively, you know, it doesn't matter if they draw blood. It's the way it feels against your being. It's so violent, you know? So, it was hard in the beginning because I just couldn't reconcile, you know, a justification of where that energy was coming from. And it wasn't until

very much later in my process, you know, I would have recurring dreams that like he wouldn't leave me alone or he would be attached to my leg and I would wake up screaming like, you know, I want him to leave me. But then later on, I sort of came full circle around to understand that, you know, in a human life, we all play roles in each other's lives that are catalysts for certain kinds of learning and transformation. And, you know, that experience definitely led me into a deep, deep meditation, a deep connection, actually, with Jesus was an energy that I was connecting to during that time. And, you know, that was really a lifeline for me, a big lifeline for me. So, later on, I actually, I had like a prophetic dream where I had an interaction with him in another plane and there was forgiveness and it was clear. Pete That was it. It was as simple as that. Yeah, it was simple as that. I mean, I had seen him, I hadn't seen him in years and years, like over 15 years or something. And then in one month, all these people from that lifetime showed up in my life, from that section of my life, people I hadn't seen, and I don't know what, it was weird. But I ran into him and I thought, oh, well, maybe this means I should call him and we should have lunch. And I remember I said it on the podcast earlier, but someone

hadn't seen that, hadn't listened to that episode. So, I asked a spiritual teacher of mine, you know, should I, and this is, is this a sign? And he was like, no. Like, what do you want to create more karma? And I was like, got it. So, I didn't. But I'm cool, you know, and I really do believe that we all play roles in each other's life. And, you know, he offered me an amazing transformative experience, even though it was unpleasant for me. I know that at, you know, at some point, everything is divine. Everything has a divine purpose. And I have enough faith and trust in myself as a soul to know that if I agreed to the interaction, then, you know then I had a part in it. And so, I just, I'm not a victim, put it that way.

All right. Well, why don't we get to this question that you have in front of you, but before that, we got a little housekeeping we got to do. So, babe, how do you feel about shaving? I love it. I actually love it when you shave. You do? That's actually not true. You're such a liar. I love you with a beard, but when you shave, I like the design of that razor that you have. Yes, Harry.

It's very cool. Yeah, my beard is coming in pretty gray these days. Which I love. You like that? It's okay? Please grow a beard. It's getting super gray. please please grow a beard it's getting super gray um yeah i used to uh i used to really dislike shaving especially the experience of shopping for shaving gear because if you go to the cvs the pharmacy around here i don't know if it's specific to los angeles but everything is on

lockdown as if you're like a heroin addict trying to get your hair gonna steal those blades yeah like if you go to get the blades you got to go find the clerk who's got to come and like unlock the thing. And, and then I, half the time I would buy the blades and bring them home and they were the wrong ones. They didn't fit like the thing that I had and they're like ridiculously expensive. So the whole process is like a giant hassle, you know, and you feel like a criminal when you're buying this stuff. And so either you're paying too much or you're buying this stuff and so either you're paying too much or you're getting cheap ones and then you're cutting your face wide open which is terrible right so what the cool thing is is that um harry's has solved this problem and they came on board as

a sponsor on the show quite a long time ago and i've been using their products ever since and it's really kind of like a whole new ball game since, since I don't have to go to the pharmacy anymore to buy my stuff. So this was a company harrys.com started by two guys passionate about creating a better shaving experience for all men. And the cool thing is there's no trade off in it. Like the products are really cool. They have a nice weight to them. The packaging is super nice. It's all very bespoke and modern and kind of this hipster kind of way. is super nice. It's all very bespoke and modern and kind of this hipster kind of way. And because it was so inexpensive, I figured it would be, you know, not as good, but I actually found that the shave is superior and that's the truth. So now what a relief it is to never have to go to the drugstore again or overpay or wait or deal with all the hassle. And the reason that they've been

able to do this is they bought a blade factory in Germany that's been crafting some of the world's highest quality blades for nearly a century. And they cut out the middlemen. So they're able to offer an amazing shave at a fraction of the price of drugstore brands. So you can pick up your starter kit. It's just 15 bucks. It includes a razor, three blades, and your choice of hairy shave cream or foam shave gel. I like the gel better. choice of Harry's Shave Cream or Foam Shave Gel. I like the gel better. That's just me. And as an added bonus, you can get $5 off your first purchase with my code ROLL, R-O-L-L. So after using my code, you can get an entire month's worth of shaving for just $10. That's crazy, because when you buy it in the drugstore, I don't know how much it is, but it's like,

sometimes it's like $40 to buy those blades or whatever. Plus, shipping is always free, which is amazing. So, you know, that's always the limiter, right? All the shipping costs. So go to harrys.com now, and Harry's will give you $5 off if you type in my code ROLL with your first purchase. That's H-A-R-R-Y-S.com. And enter coupon code ROLL at checkout for $5 off the starter set and start shaving smarter today. That's awesome. I love that. I do love that company. Actually, the starter set and start shaving smarter today. That's all right. I love that.

I do love that company. Actually, the boys use Harry's also. Yeah. Let's talk about that. It's cool. All the young men in our house use Harry's. There's a lot of young men in our house. How many young men do we have?

There's more now. Yeah, I know. Does Andrew use Harry's too? He must. I don't know. We're just on the same. If he's not, I'll hook him up. You got to hook him up.

Right. It's great design. And I think it's great design and i think it's is it it's less plastic isn't it or am i just well the no the handle is like this nice metal they have a couple different varieties i think but the one i have is like a the metal one it's like a heavy chrome it has a nice weight to it and it's sustainable yet like you keep it and you just you just you just replace the blades right it just seems like there's so much plastic in the

cvs stuff it freaks me out yeah i'm getting i'm getting really sort of losing my patience with all the plastic plastic in general yeah actually planetarily it's starting to to really grind me a little bit and so i've yeah well when you have when you have young kids the amount of plastic that you invite into your home uh without even knowing it is just insane. It's just shocking. Just hand me down. I don't even buy it. People just drop it off.

I have to start refusing drop-offs with people's stuff. And also, I've just become militant about not taking bags. I'm just carrying things. You know, I just can't handle the plastic. It's really bothering me. So, I like Harry's for that reason. Cool. Me too. All right. So I like Harry's for that reason. Cool. Me too. All right. So let's get to this email.

Okay. So this is from Jeremy Bell. Jeremy sent me an email quite a long time ago, asking about relationships. Is he cool with using his full name? Well, he is now because I've told everybody. Thanks, Jeremy. No, it was cool. And I saved it because he actually took a lot of time to actually think about it. And he was saying, there's not a lot of healthy info. No, there's not a lot of info out there about healthy relationships and how people got there. And so he was curious about knowing more about Rich and my journey. And we've already answered some of the questions. So he asked me specifically, what were your thoughts while Rich was doing his

window diet? So what were your thoughts? My inner thoughts, my inner private thoughts. I didn't like it. I didn't like it. I didn't like the way he looked. I didn't like the way you looked. I'm telling him to his face yeah so so for those who maybe are new to the podcast the window diet is actually that term was coined by osher our friend osher better give credit i know so i want to make sure that he's sure you're genius but i told him i was going to steal it and i use it all the time he steals from you every day who cares who knows what he's saying on on the bachelor in australia for the few of you who uh might not know the window diet is when you

drive your car up to a fine dining establishment and roll the window down and they hand you food and that's what you eat so basically fast food junk food diet so and when i when i go give my talk and i show the before picture which is also in the book finding ultra like i definitely have that kind of round head and like puffy face and kind of puffed out body. But people say like, well, you didn't look that bad. Like you weren't, it wasn't like you were, you know, 400 pounds or anything like that. And I always say, no, I was never, I've never characterized myself as having been morbidly obese or anything like that. I just was hefty and I was carrying around like a heaviness. Like I looked at like a guy who works in a law firm too much, right? Like just,

you know, riding the elevator up and down and not really taking care of yourself. You didn't look like a guy I wanted to be with. That's the truth of the matter. So, yeah, I was watching this thing sort of unfold before my eyes it was kind of like whoa that look at that and it was not only that but you had sort of like a river of pus coming out of your eyes you would you would eat like two pizzas maybe three sometimes three extra large pizzas i don't know if i ever ate that much really i can definitely put down two large dominoes or pizza hub pizzas extra large or whatever like not a problem so yeah so i think you're out of balance

you might have been doing two and a half or three four or five uh ultimate cheeseburger from jack in the box that's so gross okay so you were eating like this and you were you would wake up and you because you're allergic to gluten and your whole eyes would be completely puffed. You had like a puffy head. Puffy head with like mucus dripping out of your eyes, literally. Right? Remember that?

Am I right? Are you with me? Yeah. Rivers might be a little extreme. It was dripping. Yeah, I had puffy eyes. No. Okay, continue. Oh, my God.

So, it was a little bit rough. And I don't know. I mean, what did I do? I meditated more, you know? I just meditated more, searched more. That seems like a contrary course of action. Well, I had tried already. We've already told, you know, the other part of the story that I tried everything.

I had tried everything to get you to stop eating that. And to also the coffee, you know, with the three ad shots, the venti Starbucks with three ad shots. So I tried and it wasn't working. And the only place I had to go was within and so I dealt with it in a spiritual manner you know by meditating and by releasing and then when I actually got to the point where I received the teachings

from the Indian master that I was studying with who proposed to me what is divine love point where I received the teachings from the Indian master that I was studying with who proposed to me what is divine love and that divine love is simply like the sun. It doesn't judge and it doesn't discriminate. So, I became very aware that the sun was shining as much on you, even with everything you were doing as it was on me me doing meditating and eating healthy and all of that and so i just let it go and i basically turned it over to god i was like all right i'm out so i'm gonna stop by out you don't mean i'm out of the relationship you mean

i'm out of like micromanaging desire to have it right change yeah grasping or needing you to self-realize this lifetime or needing you to find your spirituality i had to trust that a higher power had placed us together and that if i was an emanation of god then you were an emanation of god and then all i had to do was put my devotion on that energy and release you to your life, release you to your process and allow you to go through that. And if that meant that you were eating that way, then that's what I allowed or I observed and I stayed completely out of it with no judgment and no anger. Pete Yeah. And that's, you know, I've said it many times and this is, you know,

I talk about it in my talks, but, uh, you know, it was that, it was that releasing of energy that shifted the dynamic. Like I could sense that and I could feel it. And that's what flipped the mirror and made me realize like, Oh, something's different. Like she's not pressing me to be, to be different. Like, cause I think that energy of, of sort of coming at me with, you know, do this, change this, you know, from whatever reason in my life history or in my baggage would like push buttons. And my impulse is to, when somebody

does that to me is to go in the opposite direction or shut down. And when that was gone and I realized that was no longer the energy, that allowed me to then take responsibility for these decisions for myself. Because for the first time, I had to kind of grapple with the idea of what I wanted or what I wanted, you know, what I wanted for my own life, as opposed to, you know, a decision to be made to placate another human being. Yeah. Right? Yes. Okay. So, I have to go to the bathroom. I'm going Yeah. Right. Yes. Okay. So I have to go to the bathroom.

I'm going to have to pause this. Okay. Sorry about that. That's right. So we're good. I feel much better. Also, I wanted to point out, like there's a weird humming noise, like there's a weird buzzing noise. So apologies if that's bothering people. There's a fan overhead in the office where we're recording this. And I tried for the life of me to figure out how to turn it off so we could have better sound, but I couldn't. So sorry about that. You just have to bear with it. All right.

So where were we? No. So I just think that also I'm going to jump into another part of Jeremy's question, which is relevant right now. And that is he was asking, what role does commitment play in this entire scenario that we're talking about and in relationships? And I want to point out that I don't really think we could have done the work that we've done if we didn't have a very firm commitment that we both understood at a very deep level. So, I think that's one element. I think if I was in a relationship with someone that I wasn't sure if they were leaving,

like if they were out the door like any second, I don't know how deep you can go because it's not safe then. You can't really explore these edges or, you know, unveil these dark parts of yourself without really knowing that the commitment was there. And so I think on that, after we had that episode in February of whatever, 2005 or 2004, where you were, you know, you left for a 24-hour period. It was tragic.

We were both devastated, which was great. But, you know, after that, I think we really, you know, we made the commitment. I mean, we were committed before, but we remade the commitment that we are in a relationship and that we value that boundary and that protection and that commitment, you know, very, very sacredly. Well, I think that episode was important in order to, you know, affirm that because when I left, I really had to reflect on like, do I want to be in this relationship? Is this not going to work? Is it going to work? Like, what am I willing to do to make it work? You know, because the possibility existed that we could go in different directions. I mean, that was very real in that moment, right? And so upon reflection, I realized, no, I want to be in this. So when I returned, you know, and I think the feeling was the same on your part, like, okay, we're in, like, we're just, we're in for whatever. knowing that we were going to stand by each other no matter what and whatever our differences were that we were going to commit to working through them created that safe place. Because I think a lot of people are in relationships where maybe it doesn't feel so safe or they're not so sure where they stand, how firm is that ground. And when that exists, it's very easy to withhold from your partner.

it's very easy to, you know, withhold from your partner, right? And if you're withholding, then that is obviously, you know, going to decay the level of intimacy, right? And that's an erosion that may start with a grain of sand, but can soon, you know, turn into an avalanche. Yeah, I think it's very, very, very important. It's an important element to a relationship to have that commitment. So I think that was working, definitely working in our favor. But you can't, you know, somebody can't manufacture that. Like that has to be, that's a, you know, both people have to be in, right? Yeah, it's true.

So does that answer his question? He just asked, well, he just said, what role do we think commitment plays in a relationship? I mean, I can only speak from my experience. I mean, I can hypothesize about what it might be for someone else who was in a relationship with someone who had commitment issues. But I don't have any experience with that. So I can't really speak to that. Do you have an experience with that or no? Yeah, maybe that's for another podcast, I suppose, because that could go down into the weeds.

Okay. And then another question Jeremy was asking is, how similar do two people's values need to be and what does that look like? Like how similar, I mean, for us in our relationship, in some ways, like in some ways, in kind of friendship ways and hanging out ways and working together ways, we like the same things. But as individual people, we're very different. So, how does that work? Well, I think first you have to define what you mean by values. values you know like are are we talking about you know are we talking about your you know what's i

suppose that means you know what's important to you right but you know if somebody's if somebody's value system is completely different then that's probably not going to work like if you just take an extreme example somebody who is a you know uh a militant revolutionary and somebody who is in the Tea Party. Right, exactly. Whatever, you know what I mean? So I think as you kind of cross that divide and get closer, then it becomes more and more difficult

how you parse out a difference in values. But I think it's important that you share at least some core kind of perspective on what you want out of your life, right? You have to be moving in the same direction. I think if somebody analyzed us, or if we actually broke it down, we would see that we have the same core values. You know, we have the exact same core values like, you know, family, you know, commitment, committed relationship, integrity, creativity, transformation, spiritual practice. But the way that we do those things is very different.

Right. I mean, you're an incredibly different person than I am in the way you kind of deal with your day. You know, you're somebody who is multi-task. Like, when I met you, like, you were doing a million different things, right? You were like, I'm an artist. I'm a yogi somebody who is multi-task. Like when I met you, like you were doing a million different things, right? You were like, I'm an artist. I'm a yogi. I'm a meditator. I like to paint and I like to sculpt. And I, oh yeah. And I was a fashion designer and I do this and I do that. And I was like, how does that even work? Like I never met anyone who was such a multidisciplinarian and my experience in my life was all predicated on you do one thing. Like I go all in on like one thing and that's who you are.

You define yourself by, you know, as a man, your career path. And I'm a lawyer and this is what I do. And the idea that you could do more than one thing, it never occurred to me. Like that was a broadening of my horizon. So you could, I guess, characterize that as a difference in values, but I don't really think it's a difference in values. It was just, it's just a different way of, um, I think it's a different approach. Yeah. A different approach to your life. And, and I found that to be attractive. I was like, I could use a little bit of that in my life.

You know what I mean? And I'm somebody who's very structured and very organized and very kind of diligent in, you know, how I calendar my day and everything has its neat little place, you know, not to the point of neurosis, but, you know, I find comfort in being scheduled. You know what I mean? Like that structure allows me to, to feel safe, perhaps feel safe, but also, but also achieve the goals that I've set for myself. Like, I feel like I need that, you know, and you're somebody who doesn't operate well with that. And we don't really clash over it, but we have to recognize that we function differently. Like I can't, I can't, there's no way that I could get you to operate the way that I do on a day-to-day basis.

Like that's never gonna work. Like if you look at Julie's desk and you look at my desk, it's like two different species, you know what I mean? And the way that you kind of, you know, a desk is a very revealing, it's kind of character revealing, right? Like how somebody organizes their desk says a lot about, you know,

how they deal with their day or how they, you know, I don't know, navigate the world, right? So my desk is very different than your desk. What does your desk look like? Very organized and very, you know, everything in its nice little place. I file once a year whether I need it or not.

We're in the process of like doing a little spring cleaning in July, like because of what Julie said before, like we just accumulate all this junk, right? So we have these purges every once in a while. And I just packed up like four hefty bags of clothes and took them to Goodwill. And I'm just trying to live like more minimally, right? Like we just accumulate all this stuff. And so Julie was experiencing the same thing. And she started going through all of her paperwork. And I walked up into the bedroom the other day, and there was literally like paper covering the entire floor. And she's like, yeah, I'm getting organized. I'm going, I was like, I don't even know what that is. Like, how do you even get to that point where the paperwork is such a disaster that it's spread out over the entire room, but you were like totally comfortable in that. Whereas

that would make me insane. Well, I was, I was cleaning it up. I mean, I was in, I was in the middle of the clean. It's not like I left it that way. It was prior to that. It was in the closet and it was just like a four foot high stack. And you're like, you seem to always know where everything is. And I'd be like, where's that's that thing about that oh it's upstairs in the closet in the thing and i'm like i can't even begin to there's no way i'm gonna find what's in there like i couldn't i was like i don't know how you function that way right but we could fight about it but you're not gonna you're not gonna change and i'm not gonna change we just function differently which is why like when we we spoke about this the other week too but but when we did that cross-cast

podcast with James Altucher and Claudia, his wife, and they were talking about, we were talking about, you know, working together, like they work professionally together, as do we, but they spend all their time, they're like attached at the hip, like 18 hours a day, and that would not work for us, right? So, because we recognize that we have a different way, like we do things differently, and that's okay. It's not a reflection on our level of intimacy. It's just what functions best for us. Yeah, it's true. And it, you know, it can make things interesting and it can make things, you know, you can also learn from different perspectives. And I mean, I learned from you, you know, I strive to be

more organized and, and, uh, do you strive? I do sometimes occasionally. Yeah. Um, but that's not a core value. No, that's not a core value. That's just, that's an approach, right? That's just an approach. It's, it's, it's being able to differentiate between, you know, a core value, I suppose, would be something about how you live your life that is very important to you, right? Yeah. And I would say that one of the core values that's very important to us is a committed, deep, intimate relationship. Because if it wasn't, we wouldn't have stayed together. Right. So, if one of us was into like being a swinger. Right. That wouldn't work. Yeah. That would be a core value that wouldn't work. That wouldn't work very well.

Yeah, and I mean, the other thing, and the reason that I corrected when you said, you know, the financial is the interesting thing about our transformation and what people come up to me all the time. And, you know, people that know us, that were our friends that were close is they almost can't fathom

that the amount of financial duress we went through did not break our family apart and break Rich and I apart, but it actually didn't. We never fought over that because we knew that was just a symptom of the spiritual transformation that we were going through. And we knew that, you know, it wasn't your job to be my source and it wasn't my job to be your source. We were going outside of our physical selves and connecting with something greater than our human selves to try to connect with a deep life purpose that was buried inside our heart. And that was complicated because we were

set up in life a certain way. And so there was like a train moving. And when you stop the train, there's a wreck, there's a pileup, you know, when you stop it suddenly. So, it wasn't easy to navigate, but I was never angry. I was never angry with you for the choices that we decided as a couple. And I know you were not angry with me. And what it did is it created this solidarity, this tremendous commitment and this bonding where we were kind of together through this, through, you know, our own self-created war in a way. Right. I mean, I think that, you know, as I began to kind of struggle existentially with like what I was supposed to be doing with my life and kind of struggle existentially with like what I was supposed

to be doing with my life and kind of came to this crossroads with being a lawyer and realizing like, this is not what I should be doing, you know, and bringing that to you, you were like, then don't do it anymore. Like, let's do something else. Like, you know, you were able to see certain aspects of my character that I couldn't see clearly. And you helped me channel that. Like, why don't you, you know, I was like, I wrote a screenplay like every other idiot in Los Angeles. Right. But we directed a movie, you know, I directed a movie, like I tried a lot of different things and you were always, um, you were always a support to that. So I think, you know, perhaps what might be behind this question is, is something that we get a lot of, which is, you know, one person in the relationship, you know, is interested in personal growth or health or whatnot, and the other person isn't. And so is there a core value difference there? Like, if the other partner isn't

interested in that, are they still supportive? Or are they just saying, why are you doing that? Come back to me in the sense that you might have said, what do you mean you're not going to be a lawyer? Like you got to go back and this is what you do, right? Like that would have been a core value that would have come, that we would have clashed over that, that could have, you know, led us in a very different direction. So you were, you were always somebody that I think, I get, I think what I'm getting out is that it's important to be open, right? Like, so I think being in your presence allowed me to see that perhaps there were more options for me that I didn't have to stay in this career because I saw you doing so many other things. And that

allowed me to entertain the possibility that, that I might be able to do some other things as well. And then when that kind of spark, you know, was lit, then you were able to be supportive of that, you know, outside, you know, an analysis of how that was going to impact us financially. Well, it was all about, because for me, it's about, you know, the life is about realizing what's in your heart in an authentic way. And so if I believe- That's a core value. That's a core value. Exactly. So if on the other side of that, a core value would be, we need to have a vacation home in

the Hamptons and we need to be able to drive a Tesla and all these sorts of trappings of our culture and getting caught up in status and materialism, if that was one person's focus, that would be a core value in conflict with your core value. Yes. Yeah, true. That wouldn't work, right? Yeah. And I remember one time you feeling incredible guilt that you could not provide the vacation for the kids for spring break. And I remember saying to you that the example that you were setting by braving this terrain and carving this new life out for yourself

was a greater example, would transform their life and affect them in a positive way, you know, a million times beyond any vacation you could buy them. Right. And I had a difficulty believing that at the time. And I think in part, that's because, you know, our sense, you know, as men, our idea of who we are, our sense of masculinity is innately, you know, sort of related to our ability to provide. So, if you're struggling with your ability to provide, basically that is, you know, that is, uh, undercutting your identity as a man, right? And that's very painful place to be very, very painful place to be. And I know that that's a place that a lot of men are in and they suffer quietly, you know, like they don't have anyone

to talk to about that, or they don't have, have, you know, a support system or a partner who can help them navigate that without, you know, feeling minimized in the process. Right. And I think that as women, I mean, we're talking about, you know, women and men in relationships, but I think that, you know, it could be it could also be other kinds of relationship, two women or two men. So, but I think within the relationship, there's an opportunity for, again, us to realize that the other partner is not our source. It is not their job to provide for us, to provide, you know, physical comforts. Our source is much greater, much, much, much greater. And, you know, to the extent that we're playing a part in that violence, we need to stop it. Because if you just shift the, you know, shift your awareness and view it from the perspective of, you know, what if your partner was your child and would you want your child to be, um, you know,

uh, exposed to, um, you know, some expectation that was not serving the best of his heart expression, you know, and would you like your child's life to be, um,

you know, uh, confined or summarized to someone else's need for security or for upkeep, I guess I would say. So, you know, in our modern world, you know, we're, you know, we've become accustomed to certain things that we think are absolutely required for our existence, and not that many of them are really, really required. And if you're lucky enough to be graced to go through a dismantling, it will not be easy. So don't mistake my words for that. I think that it's easy. But the blessing is great because you finally become free of the money system and you realize that there is a greater force that is your source. And as you learn to connect to that and learn to drop a lot of the other illusions, you will see time and time again how you are supported in living your heart.

When you make decisions from integrity, from alignment, from authenticity, integrity, from, you know, alignment and from authenticity, you will be, you will be answered and you will, you will see that upheld. It's a huge leap of faith and it's certainly been our experience. But I think that what happens is, you know, people hear that and they say, well, that's great. But you know, my rent's due next week. And you know, I can't leave my job because there aren't any other jobs. And I hate my job, but at least I have a job. And, you know, I need my health insurance. And, you know, so good luck to you. But you know, I can't see how I can actually implement that into my own personal circumstances.

Yeah, but, you know, anybody can say that. I mean, the world, everybody has the same amount of hours in the day, okay? So, you know, if you've got two legs and two arms and you can walk and you can talk and you can think, you know, you have the exact same opportunity. and you can talk and you can think, you know, you have the exact same opportunity. So I'm not, I don't, the level of pressure and the dark night that I had to navigate with my family and what I had to go through with you in support was no small task. And so I'm not going to um i'm not going to um uh act like it was like i had it easy or you know is nine years an easy amount of time for me to stand by and say you know we're gonna do this that's a long time so no i'm saying that is our that has been our experience i'm just saying how people interpret

that um because i think they project onto us a different idea of how it went down. And I don't, you know, it's difficult to appreciate just how excruciating it was for an incredibly extended period of time. And, you know, to somebody who, you know, feels stuck in their job and feels like they can't leave and, you know, they have bills that are due, like I empathize with that, you know, and it doesn't mean, you know, what we're not saying is, you know, this faith-based path doesn't require you to overnight quit your job and just say, I'm not doing that anymore and I'm not playing this game anymore. Like it, yeah, it was nine years of us trying to traverse that gap. But I think it began with doing that

inside work and getting in touch with, you know, going on that journey of trying to traverse that gap. But I think it began with doing that inside work and getting in touch with, you know, going on that journey of trying to discover and unlock like what it is that we wanted to do and be and connecting with our heart in that way and finding a way, you know, very clumsily to express that, you know, before it really took shape and form to be what it is now. Well, and it was never, it wasn't a guaranteed thing, first of all. Okay. It was the furthest thing. The furthest thing from a guaranteed.

Yeah. So, it wasn't like, you know, it wasn't graceful and we weren't able to plan it out, you know, perfectly. And of course, everybody's journey is going to be completely different because it's a different individual. But by, you know, practicing meditation and getting clear about, you know, what is living in your heart, what is yearning to be expressed, and, you know, what are the things that you can shift in your life, you know, immediately that don't require, you know, a complete dismantling. complete dismantling. The other thing, though, is that you'll find if you've stepped out onto the trail, you know, the trail has its own terrain, and it has its own personality, and you can't control that. So, it basically dictates what is going to happen. And your challenge is the way you meet it. Your transformation is, you know, not what happens to you, but who are you

in the face of what happens to you? So, you know, Jeremy asked later in the email, you know, what was your lowest point? And it makes me giggle because it was like, which low point would you like me to point out? You know, there are many, many, many, many points where we were, you know, literally on our knees just going, you know, did we just completely, you know, make a wrong turn? And is this whole thing just for, you know, for not? So, again, it required faith, it required continually committing, recommitting to each other, recommitting to our hearts over and over and over again, getting more clear, disconnecting from the status quo, letting go of any attachment to, you know, old paradigm ideas, like credit scores, you know, like,

you know, just health insurance or, you know, car leases, like things like that. And things that, you know, we thought that we had enough energy that those things should have been taken care of. Like we didn't understand why those things, you know, were not taken care of. But you have to, you show up. I mean, you know, the, the, the journey will dictate what it's going to be. But the one thing that you do is you show up for it every day. Yeah. And whatever capacity that may be for you, maybe that's just between the hours of 9pm and 10pm every night, you know, when you're home from your nine to five job or whatever it is, in whatever way that you can show up for yourself to participate in that journey, and detaching from, you know, the results of whatever your, your, your efforts are,

I think is, is essential. Like, cause if you're doing it because you have an expectation of a certain result, then you're in big trouble, frustrated and most likely disappointed. That's right. No, it's true. And I mean, we were talking to somebody, we met, we met a, a, a fellow dismantler warrior on the plane, actually, on the way back from our latest trip. And, you know, I was describing to him about, you know, how it became, it was basically a spiritual challenge, the whole financial collapse for me. That's definitely how I met it. So I tried to maintain an inner environment inside myself of complete neutrality, no matter what was happening. And I started to observe myself and see how I could lessen any cortisol spike to almost nothing, no matter what was occurring in front of me.

And I got to be pretty adept at it at the end. Yeah, that's a huge skill. There are certain things to this day that I have, like that I still struggle with that I shouldn't because it's imagined, whether it's like opening a letter from the IRS or answering a certain phone call that like caused my, you know, caused me to get imbalanced. And so that challenge of like being able to meet anything in total neutrality is like a superpower. It is. And I always describe it like, you know, you don't see a Jedi warrior like losing their

shit. Like, oh no, like, oh my God, this person called me and i gotta call back you know it's like they don't they don't they just don't they don't waver off that neutral point your power is in neutral loving compassion in clarity you're you're seeing what's going on around you and you're maintaining your inner power your inner neutrality so no what's happening, if you can reduce your level of freak out to almost nothing, then that energy will leave, it will go away, because there's nothing to play with anymore. That is a very great key. And that should be applied every moment of your day and every single thing and sometimes we get lazy because we're back in you know life is just going as it as it does and then someone takes

your parking space and then you you participate in that really stupidity of getting, you know, when you, when you really look at it as an energetic, um, use, you know, it's using fuel, using your energy, why you would get involved in being irritated or resentful or angry or fighting or anything over something like that. It's not, it's not, um, it's not wise. Yeah. Well, it's preposterous when you look at it from 10,000 feet down, but that is our condition, right? That's our human condition that our challenge is to meet and overcome. And it's a choice. So, all right, well, I think this is a good place to wind it all down. But if somebody's listening and they're like, I want that superpower. What is the journey towards accessing that superpower?

Be careful what you ask for. If you want that superpower, then you have to be willing to go through the experiences to develop it. Because you can't read about it in a book and get it. But you can play with it. So the next time something happens that you consider to be a threat to your existence, I guess. Well, why don't you start with something small and try to gauge how you...

I mean, first you have to be self-aware enough to know when you're reacting impulsively to a situation, but start with the parking space and then say, okay, that guy took my parking space. I have an opportunity here to be totally neutral about that rather than do what I usually do, which is like get all pissed off. you know, is a reason for us to get, you know, ruffled and all this. And if you just start to view life that it's a movie, that it's happening, and that different people are playing different roles, and that your power is in neutral, neutral observance, and then maybe beyond that loving compassion and start to play with it and observe what is your blood pressure doing, you know, when that person that irritates you, you know, calls you or takes your parking space or the person at the cashier isn't fast enough or, you know, try to model a Jedi warrior and, and, and put yourself in that situation. And, and remember that you can't control what happens to you, but you can control who you are

in the face of what happens to you. And so, it's all between you and you. So, if you want to be an idiot who's like screaming, jumping around in the parking lot, you know, yelling at a fire hydrant, then go ahead. Pete That's me. Kirsten Go ahead and do that. But it's more of an awareness and to understand that, you know, we're talking about health and longevity. So, according to Swami Vidya Dishananda, His Holiness, cortisol and insulin spike is the key to longevity. So, if you want to live a long life, don't spike your insulin. What does that mean?

Don't spike your cortisol. Don't get emotional, out of balance, you know, freaking out. That's aging you and it's killing you. So, you should keep in mind, this is why I'm always saying meditation, meditation, meditation, meditation, breathing, breathing, breathing, yoga, yoga, yoga.

Well, that's the way to cultivate that superpower because you really are able to, even if it's just that added moment before reacting where you have a conscious awareness enough to make a different decision, right? And in recovery, they call it contrary action. Like for me, it's like, what would I normally do in this situation than doing the opposite as almost an experiment? And I know many, many times you'll go into these situations knowing that, OK, this is traditionally stressful and doesn't really produce the result that I want. But I'm going to I'm going to I'm going to do an experiment like like whether it's like, oh, we got to call AT&T and find out how we can change our service plan. And then you go into the morass of customer service, which drives me insane.

And you'll be like, I'm going to play a game with this person and treat them with respect and compassion, but also be completely neutral with whatever they say to you, whether it's dealing with going through security at the airport or whatever it is. Like those situations which usually are very kind of disruptive to me. You know, they kind of like push my buttons and get me crazy. That's why I always have you handle this stuff for me. But to say, okay, I'm going to go into this, you know, with a conscious awareness of what's happening and handle it differently than I have in the past. And then do an inventory of the results, right? Like, oh, when I handled it this way, I actually got the result that I was looking for all along. And I did it because I divorced myself from needing it or whatever it is.

That's a good, that's a good practice. Definitely. I should actually try. You should try that one. You should try to practice what you preach. I wasn't preaching it. I was explaining it. I was just using that.

I was just using that. But you're very, very good at that, you know, and I have a lot to learn about that. Like I watch that and I'm like, wow, look what she just did. I don't know if I could do that, you know? Well, I mean, I think the level of big things that we went through was great, you know? And, you know, it's just especially, you know, especially don't be spiking your insulin over small stuff. Well, spiking your insulin, your insulin is released by your pancreas into your bloodstream when you put sugar into your blood. That's very

different than cortisol. They're two different things. But spiking your insulin is contingent upon the food that you're eating. Right. That's true. You're right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's true. Just to be clear on that. Yeah, right.

All right. Well, I think we got to wind it down here. It's an hour and a half. Yeah. That's it. Okay. Are we done with Jeremy's questions? Let me see.

Did we answer them fully? He got a lot of airtime today. I always like print out like a whole stack of questions. Let me see. relationship? Not in the traditional sense that I think he's asking. Like, we don't go to a therapist. No. Right? But, you know, I have people in my life that I can call when I'm, you know, needing counsel on a variety of matters, whether that's my marriage or any number of things, right? So, I think it's important for everybody to have people in their life that they trust, whose advice that they trust, people that are living lives that, you know, you aspire to have, that you can call and run things by, right? Yeah, but for you, it's your program community.

Yeah, yeah. So these are people in recovery that I call. Who have a spiritual practice. Right. But I have like a board of advisors, right? So I have people that I call for this issue and different people that I call for that issue. You know, when it's a relationship thing, I know certain people that I can call. If it's a business thing, there are other people that I can call. And I think everybody would be well advised to have those kinds of people in their life. Like, I think, you know, recovery has really taught me to embrace the idea of not knowing. Like, I think, you know, recovery has really taught me to embrace the idea of not knowing. Like, it's okay to not know.

It's okay to not know the answer to something. And it's okay to ask people for help, which is very difficult for me. You know, it's sort of, as men too, it's like, you have to know the answer to everything. And you should know the answer to everything. And if you don't, then you're weak, right? But that's not the case. And even very mundane decisions, like sometimes I'll run them by people, like, what would you do? Do you think this is a good

decision or a bad decision? And more often than not, like, I will course correct, like, I'll do something different than I originally intended, you know, when I kind of pull my advisors and get a consensus one way or the other. And I think that that's, you know, a healthy practice for anybody. But we don't go together and like seek out sort of advice, the two of us, for our relationship specifically. And from my perspective, I do not speak about our relationship to outside people, usually. Except on the podcast. Except right now. Hundreds of thousands of people. To your millions of people. I don't do that.

It's like with sacred spiritual experiences. It's like you guard them. It's like the speaking. If I'm speaking about it, I'm making sure that I'm not speaking in a negative way about it because the processing it in a negative way can draw that, can increase that and make that actually more amplified. This has been my experience with couples therapy and, you know, it's just my experience, but in my experience, couples therapy has been not useful because it's two people sitting in a room telling a third

person on the other person who's sitting there. And I find that triangulation of energy to be very destructive. So for me, I'm an advocate of therapy, but I think it's one-on-one is where the real work happens. Maybe a couple, for me, again, this is my experience. So if people are getting help from that, then that from couples therapy, then that's fine. But for me, maybe it would be a strategizing meeting where it was a couple with one therapist. But I think ultimately when the real work begins, it has to be solo. That's been my experience. But we've never gone to see a counselor together.

I think the other thing to be aware of too, specific to relationship quandaries that arise, specific to, you know, relationship quandaries that arise is it's easy to, you know, you can cultivate your story about whatever conflict you're in with your partner, and then take that to your friend and tell that story in a way that makes you sound very right and the other person wrong. And then that person will, your friend will, of course, say, well, of course, you're right and blah, blah, blah. And it kind of devolves into a gossipy kind of thing that I don't think is productive. So I think that's part of what you were saying about not sharing about your relationship because it can turn into that. to a, you know, quote unquote mentor or somebody that, you know, is, is, you know, a repository of, of, of good advice for you. I think you have to be very conscious about how you're communicating your dilemma to that person and, and to strive to be as objective as possible about that. And

that requires you to do an inventory of your own behavior and identify where your character's defects or your behavior is contributing to whatever scenario, whatever dynamic that you find yourself in. Yeah. And I think you have to, you know, be careful of who you're, who you're speaking to, because if you, if you value your relationship and you, you know, you need to treat it with, with a lot of respect and a lot of care and a lot of, uh, a lot of reverence really. So I would be very careful to just discuss it with anyone or any family member. It would be somebody who I, I valued highly and I felt that they, you know, I knew that they really had my best interest and our best interest at heart.

All right. All right. Well, we got to close it down. That's it, honey. How do you feel about today? Couldn't do it again in 12 years. Is it good? Couldn't do what?

Do what? This podcast. Podcast. We're going to wait 12 years. On our relationship. All right. So we got through one question. That's good.

Whoops. Yeah. So anyway, I got a whole stack here. That's good news. We'll have more to talk about. And I wanted to close it down with a fan letter. I thought it'd be nice to like read a fan letter. Remember last week I tried to, but I didn't print it out properly. Oh, okay. Awesome. So this is from Jason. It goes on long, so I'm going to edit it. But he says, I wanted to reach out to you and say thanks for all that you do and the amazing impact you have had on my life in such a short time span. To be honest, back in April, I had never heard your name, but nutrition is my absolute passion.

And my wife will occasionally send me bits of information through email that she thinks will interest me. She sent an article from MindBodyGreen. And after some digging, I came across an article you wrote in regards to protein. I know, the beloved protein question. I came across an article you wrote in regards to protein. I know, the beloved protein question. Well, needless to say, from that moment on, I have dove headstrong into your journey and it has given me the direction I was looking for.

I have somewhat of a similar story to yours. And as I had an awakening when I turned 40, I just turned 45 last week and I've traveled a long road since pursuing this topic to amazing results. Whoops, sorry, I hit the send. This came in two emails. He hit send by accident.

Anyway, I've been attempting to gain as much knowledge in the world of nutrition as possible, and you are exactly what I was looking for. I am now halfway through your book, Finding Ultra, which my wife gave me for my birthday, along with The Plant Power Way. I purchased and watched your video series with Julie on eating a plant-based diet, and I'm through 45 episodes of your podcast. I've been an athlete all my life, soccer player, and now coach, but running was never a high activity on my list. I started walking and running with my wife and have now found a completely different outlook on it. I do have an issue with my knee after going to my family doctor and not receiving an answer that I was satisfied with. I decided to take a different route. We live in XYZ. I don't know if he wants people to know where we live. And our son is going

to film school this next year in Hollywood after spending his freshman year at College X. I heard your podcast with Dr. Chenie, and I have set up an appointment to see him next week when we are there to take our son to start school. I have and am extremely hopeful he can find a solution to getting me back out there. Another impact you have made is in regards to your podcast with the two gentlemen from the school in New York that have done work at their school to change the culture in regards to nutrition. I'm a PE teacher, athletic director at a K through A charter school. And after hearing the podcast, know that I have to at least give it a shot at making some sort of similar impact on our school. When I get back from my trip to California, I'm going to contact them and see if they can give some advice on where to start and the best approach to having success.

We are starting a school garden when we get back from summer break, so that will definitely be a good start to build off. I could write so much more about your positive impact, but I know you get plenty of these emails, so I won't. My entire family is now plant-powered, and we have never felt better. I am absolutely drawn to the ocean and beaches. So my wife and I do plan on moving back to California at some point in the near future. Da da da da da. Thanks for all you do and keep up the great work on the podcast.

I am enriched every time I listen and I'm excited to see the direction you take in the future. So that's amazing, right? This guy wrote this like really long, beautiful letter. And we do get a lot of these and it's just uh it's impossible to reply to them by email but i thought it would be nice

to read one and and and uh thank you very much for sending that and i appreciate all the amazing letters that you guys are sending so thanks so much for all the beautiful messages that we get it's just incredibly blowing our, it's continuing, continually blowing our minds on a daily basis. So, so thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

All right, you guys. So, uh, that's it. Thanks for subscribing to the show on iTunes. Thank you for telling your friends for sharing it on social media. Thank you for using the Amazon banner at a rich role.com for all your Amazon

purchases. So keep sending your questions for future Q&A podcasts to info at richroll.com. I am looking for a web-based way of better organizing all of these questions, and I'll keep you posted on that. And for all your plant power needs, don't forget to go to richroll.com. We got nutrition products. We got Julie's meditation program. We have signed copies of the Plant Power Way and also Finding Ultra. We have 100% organic cotton garments. We have tech teas. We have sticker packs now, awesome sticker packs. And our most recent and interesting product offering are these beautiful art prints by our friend Andrew Pasquella, who is

very much a premier upcoming talented artist who's making waves in the art and food movement. He's done a series on the USDA, kind of a take, a modern art take on the USDA label. And he's been kind enough to basically make a limited number of these prints available to you guys, which he will sign and number all of them. And I assure you, this guy's art career is blowing up right now. So it's a great way to access and own a beautiful piece of art at a very affordable price. Yeah, they're gorgeous cool they're and um you can get them framed or unframed and they come on this beautiful cloth paper it's it's really nice it's very very high end and they're big they're 26 by 26 uh three color hand screen prints the whole

deal all the information is on the website so you can just go there and check him out right um and we've got online courses at mind bodyodyGreen, the ultimate course in plant, what is it called? Ultimate Guide to Plant-Based Nutrition. I think that's what it's called. That's what it's called. And what's the other one called? Something about living your most authentic self. Something about goal setting.

Living with purpose. No, it's called, what is it called? I don't know. It's bad. I can't remember the name of your own program. But it's all about the inside. Whatever. It's about the inside word. It's living, what is it called? I don't know. It's bad. I can't remember the name of your own program. But it's all about the inside. Whatever. It's about the inside word.

It's living with purpose, something. Something like that. Something like that. You can find it. Go to mindbodyfree.com and click on video courses. Actually, really proud of those courses. I'm just having a brain fart right now about what it's called. Me too, obviously.

All right. That's it, you guys. If you want to connect with Julie, she's at Srimati, S. All right, that's it, you guys. If you want to connect with Julie, she's at Srimati, S-R-I-M-A-T-I, on both Twitter and Instagram. Her website is srimati.com. Follow her.

She's offering all kinds of pearls of wisdom and beautiful photographs on her Instagram. Thank you. And are we going to take this out with one of your songs? I think we will, yeah. What is it going to be this time? It's going to be I'm Here Now. I'm Here Now.

It's a love song that I wrote for a couple gurus of mine. And then it became about you and the kids. Have we played that one on the podcast before? A long time ago, I think. All right, good. All right, that's it. All right, so it's been beautiful being with you. Thanks for an amazing

relationship, rich role. Thank you. To another 12 years, perhaps. Here we go. We'll see. We'll see what happens,

right? Okay. All right. Peace. Plants. Namaste. Namaste. Ever since I was a little girl I've been waiting

Waiting I've been waiting for you. Searching in the sunlight on the trees, the bubbling stream inside my head. Am I insane? And though words could never show, still I wanted you to know That your presence Is really something in my life

And time and time again Path is leading me to thin Still your smile It's like a light along the way Tied like crystals melting on the sand It's no matter I knew you'd come I never listened to any of them

And when you walked through that door Just like I'd seen so many times before I just died I just died and

no words could never show Still I wanted you to know That your presence Is really something in my life And time and time again At this leading event Still your smile It's like a light along the way

Your laughter filled the air You spoke of mountains and secrets kept And in that moment I really felt Like I was wrapped up and felt so sweetly. Thank you.