The Rich Roll Podcast - How We Can Change The Food Industry with “Food Babe” Activist Vani Hari

Episode Date: February 9, 2015

Remember that big deal about how the bread at Subway contains chemicals found in yoga mats? Then there was the story about how fast food French fries contain a chemical used in Silly Putty. And the whole to-do about how there’s actually no pumpkin in the Starbucks pumpkin latte. The person behind these semi-salacious, headline grabbing campaigns is this week’s guest, Vani Hari – aka Food Babe – the outspoken and often divisive food activist behind the wildly popular FoodBabe.com blog. I met Vani at a dinner party this past summer and found her not only delightful but also razor sharp, fiercely passionate and tenacious when the subject turned to food — particularly what big food manufacturers don’t want you to know about what’s in our food. Her message? To empower the typical soccer mom with the information to feed her family right and the courage to stand up for greater transparency and accountability from companies that produce what ends up on our plates. FoodBabe.com, which exceeds an astounding 2.5 million unique visitors per month, along with the mobilization of Vani’s passionate Food Babe Army following, has been incredibly successful in getting gigantic companies like Subway, Kraft, Chipotle, Chick-fil-A, and even Anheuser-Busch to not only remove certain harmful ingredients from their food but also steer them toward more healthful policies. Therefore, it should come as no surprise that food companies are terrified of her. Her voice and legion of supporters pose a significant threat to corporate profits and business as usual. This makes her a target. Attacked daily, it’s not uncommon for her to receive death threats. But that’s what happens when you really put yourself out there, on the front lines. The fact that she soldiers on is super ballsy. She is a warrior. Totally punk rock. The Erin Brockovitch of food. Congressman Tim Ryan calls her Vani “a one woman consumer protection agency.” And I for one have tremendous respect for anyone who demonstrates her level of courage and advocacy. Vani and I were supposed to sit down in person in New York a couple weeks ago but the big storm that never was left her with a cancelled flight and compelled me to break my cardinal rule and host this conversation on Skype. I never do this, but I think Vani’s message is potent and important and it didn’t appear we would be in the same city at the same time again anytime soon, so I took a chance and I’m glad I did. This is a great talk. A talk about how all of us, irrespective of our personal dietary proclivities, can live a cleaner, more organic and healthier lifestyle in today’s overprocessed, contaminated-food world. This is a talk about corporate responsibility and corporate transparency. This is a talk about government oversight and regulation of our food, our food companies, and the ingredients that find their way into our food. And most importantly, from my perspective, this is a talk about the inherent power and responsibility we hold as as consumers to be advocates; to raise our voice and be heard; to hold the people behind the food we eat more accountable for how its made and what goes into it. I sincerely hope you enjoy the conversation. Peace + Plants, Rich

Here's the deal is if you have to be a scientist or a doctor or a nutritionist to know how to eat, that is kind of a problem. That is an issue in itself. And so really all of us should learn how to be our own nutritionist. And really this is what the Food Babe way is about. It's about teaching ourselves how to eat the most nutritious foods on the planet and how to rid our bodies of all these chemicals that we are being exposed to that, you know, we're part of this massive experiment that, you know, I personally want to opt myself out of. You've opted yourself out of, Rich.

And I think other people need to, too. And I think they would realize some level of health they never thought was possible. That's Vani Hari, a.k.a. The Food Babe. And this is episode 129 of The Rich Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey, everybody. I'm Rich Roll Podcast. Hey, everybody. I'm Rich Roll. You guys know me, your friendly neighborhood ultra-endurance athlete, best-selling author, wellness evangelist, lifestyle entrepreneur, husband, father of four, dog owner, plant eater.

Thanks for tuning in. What I do here each week is I sit down with somebody really amazing each week, week after week. I've been doing this for two years. Sometimes it's somebody you've heard of, sometimes not. But collectively, in my opinion, together, these people constitute some of the brightest, most forward-thinking minds in health, wellness, fitness, sports, nutrition, and even the arts and entrepreneurship. All of these people share common traits. They all

look at the world differently. They're all challenging the status quo. They're all breaking paradigms. Today's guest is no different. In fact, she's a fantastic example of this. But first, why do I do this? Well, I do this to help you guys discover, uncover, unlock, and unleash your best, most authentic self. I want to thank you guys for listening. I want to thank you for spreading the word to all your friends and on social media. And thank you for clicking through the Amazon banner ad at richroll.com for your Amazon purchases. Why is this important?

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option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. Okay, so who remembers that whole huge thing about how the bread at Subway, Subway sandwiches, how their bread contains chemicals found in yoga mats? You guys remember that? That was like a huge news story. That was like a meme on the internet. Or maybe you remember the one about how your typical fast food French fries contain a chemical used in silly putty. Or that whole to-do about how there's actually no pumpkin in the Starbucks pumpkin latte. Well, there's a person behind these campaigns, and her name is Vani Hari, aka The Food Babe, and she is this week's guest on the show she is the outspoken at times

controversial food activist behind the wildly popular foodbabe.com blog so i met vani at a dinner party in here in los angeles it must have been about six months ago or so. And I found her to not only be delightful, but razor sharp, passionate, and really tenacious when it came to talking about food, what's in our food, what big food manufacturers don't want you to know about what's in your food, and the power that we all have as consumers to hold these companies more accountable for their food products, to be more transparent about their practices, and to change these practices and ingredients when the consumer's best interest demands it. Her site, which if you're not familiar with it, you might be the only one, it garners

more than two and a half million unique visitors a month. Well, her site, along with the mobilization of this incredibly passionate group of followers, which she calls the Food Babe Army, they've been incredibly successful in getting gigantic companies, companies like Subway, Kraft, Chipotle, Chick-fil-A, and even Anheuser-Busch to not only remove certain harmful ingredients from their food, but also steer them towards more healthful policies. So what am I saying? I'm saying that Vani is a paradigm breaker. She is disrupting within the confines of the system.

And as a result, it's not surprising to know that food companies are terrified of her. There's good reason for this because she gets to the bottom of what's in her food. She mobilizes her supporters to demand answers. And then she holds these companies accountable for their promises. And so you know what? That's super ballsy. And frankly, I think that's totally punk rock. So Vani takes a lot of heat on the internet. But you know what? That's what happens when you really put yourself out there, when you're on the front lines. Congressman Tim Ryan calls her a one-woman consumer protection agency. And I have tremendous respect for her courage and for her advocacy.

So, Vani and I were supposed to sit down in person together in New York City a couple weeks ago. So Vani and I were supposed to sit down in person together in New York City a couple weeks ago. But the big storm, the snowpocalypse, the storm that never happened, left her with a canceled flight out of her home in North Carolina. And so she didn't make it into New York City until after I had already left. And it just didn't happen. And so this is forcing me to break my cardinal rule, which is that I don't like doing interviews on Skype. I just I never do this. But I think Vani's message is really important. It's potent. And I didn't see when we were going to be in the same city at the same time anytime soon. And honestly, I just want to help her get the word out about what she's doing. She's got a new book coming out. It's called The Food Babe

Way. It comes out this week, February 10th. And this is a great talk. This is a talk about how all of us, irrespective of our personal dietary proclivities, what our habits are, all of us can live a cleaner, more organic and healthier lifestyle in today's over-processed contaminated food world. This is a talk about corporate responsibility and corporate transparency. It's a talk about government oversight and regulation of our food and our food systems and food ingredients. And it's a talk about how our inherent power and responsibility as consumers to be advocates needs to be taken more seriously. It's time to raise our voice. It's time for us to be heard, to hold the people

behind the food we eat more accountable for how it's made and what goes into it. Let's talk to the food babe. I am thrilled and pleased and honored to have you on, although admittedly slightly disappointed to not do it in person like we originally planned to meet up in New York City. But that sort of fiasco of a snowstorm, snowpocalypse that never actually materialized prevented that from occurring. We were both supposed to be there at the same time, but your flight got canceled, right? Yep, sure did, man. So it's an exciting time for you. The book's about to come out. There's a lot of heat, a lot of energy, a lot of excitement around what you're doing and this book.

And I have to say, like, I'm so amazed with all the sort of everything that you're doing, kind of getting ready for your book coming out. I feel like, I feel like Harvard Business School should do a case study on like how you're positioning your book to come out. You've done an amazing job. Oh, well, thank you very much. You know, I really try to approach everything I do on the blog from the heart. And really, you know, one of the things that has been so incredible to watch is just all of the amazing companies out there who are providing better products for the world, more organic, more sustainable products, really want to see this book succeed and want to partner with me on that. And it was so great because I was really able to offer people, you know, bonuses. Hey, you know, you get a free set of organic sheets and, you know, an organic mattress if you order so many books. And we're, you know, we're trying to provide back to the everyday

ordinary person out there who's carrying this message because they're so incredibly important for getting the food system to change. And so, you know, I am just so thankful for this amazing community of people that we've built that are changing the food industry out there and with their decisions and voting with their dollars and calling these companies and contacting them and asking them to change. And so it's just been an amazing ride these last couple of months, just hearing the support and the enthusiasm for this book and this message for it to be out there. And, you know, I really did not hold back in this book. And Little Brown, my publisher, was very courageous and brave in making sure, you know, they didn't hold me back from really going for it in this book and really sharing the truth and everything and uncovering what's happening with the food industry in a way that nobody else has

done before. Yeah, I mean, I think that definitely comes across in the book. And I think what's sort of interesting, I think that if you don't, like if you don't take the time to really kind of educate yourself as to what you're all about, or you really read your blog, like if you just read the criticism out there, I think it would be easy to be under the impression that you're out there kind of exploding bombs with all these, you know, fast food companies and food manufacturers and you're sort of, you know, you don't care what the result is. But when I read your book, I see somebody who kind of goes in, tries to interface with these corporations and really wants them to embrace change. And when they

do kind of make that change, then you celebrate them. So you're not like, just trying to say, hey, you know, screw you, you know, Chick-fil-A or whoever it is, like you're saying, hey, this is great. They made this baby step forward. So I guess what I'm saying is what I see is somebody who understands the value of kind of working within the construct of the system to evoke change. Yeah, absolutely. You know, this isn't about bashing companies or, you know, just talking about the negative. This is really getting them to change their ways and inspiring them to tell them that consumers out there want access to better ingredients and better food and food that isn't controversial or is banned in other countries. And so when these companies do make

the change, I always celebrate them. And really, you know, I've always give a company the benefit of the doubt too. And this is stuff that people don't see in the background or, you know, behind the scenes. You know, when I decided to petition Subway, you know, I had been writing about them for almost two years, had contacted them over two years. They just never responded, wouldn't even call me back. And so, you know, it wasn't until that, you know, Michelle went, Michelle Obama went on air and said that, you know, this is safe for every kid to eat, that parents should feel good about this. I knew that she had been duped about what was really in Subway's food. And I felt like so many other

millions of Americans had been duped. And I felt like people needed to know that this marketing phrase, eat fresh, is just not true. I'm sorry. I don't mean to interrupt. But what was the kind of tipping point between petitioning these companies and trying to get on their radar and get their attention and actually sort of getting their attention? You know what I mean? Like what changed or what was the moment in which it kind of transitioned from, you know, you during that

two-year period trying to, you know, make waves and then suddenly them listening? I think a lot of it has to do with media pressure and a lot has to do with social media pressure too. Not like traditional media and then social media. So, you know, there's one thing that's interesting about just writing about a company. You know, the blog or, you know, the post can go viral and it can, you know, educate a lot of people about a certain product or a company. But when consumers start to a certain product or a company. But when consumers start to organize around an idea or a change, that's when companies start to fear what's happening and feel like they're going to lose some reputational magic about their company if they don't change. And so I think they feel a lot of pressure with petitions, with media, when media

contacts them and when they see their social media pages get overrun with comments and questions and requests from the people out there that really want to see them change. And so they get concerned and they start to listen to the consumer. And when other people, you know, who are their customers come forward, who, you know, I mean, here's the deal, you know, out of all of every single one of the companies that I've petitioned or, you know, led a change for is, has been something I've eaten. So I've been a customer, you know, in my life, or there's someone that I love that's still a customer. And so really, it's about all of us becoming aware and, and really holding these companies accountable for the changes that they need to make. And, you know,

I think what's really interesting is these companies, majority of them have already know how to make these changes. They've reformulated their products for other countries that are with safer ingredients. And so knowing that, you know that these companies have the intellectual capital to get these changes done. And knowing that, you know, gives you a stronger sense of succeeding in some of these petitions and actions. Right. I mean, I think the biggest issue in all of this, kind of the overarching theme in everything that you're doing and maybe kind of a greater theme at play at large culturally is the issue of transparency. And I think with the Internet comes a certain expectation and level of transparency that we're coming to expect as consumers that's new for our sort, corporate culture to understand and embrace. And when someone like you comes along, who, you know, very quickly, I mean, you've only been doing this for like three years, right? I mean, it hasn't been that long. Is that correct? Yeah, a little over three years,

right? Sorry, go ahead. Yeah. And, you know, I am just as taken back by the amount of progress, you know, we've been able to make with the site and growing the community and the people out there, the informed decision makers out there that are really helping me change this world. You know, this isn't me alone. You know, it's really funny because Congressman Tim Ryan said, you know, I was like a one woman consumer protection agency. But really, you know, I was like a one woman consumer protection agency. But really, you know, I'm just leading this amazing group of concerned citizens out there that are ready to take back control of their food and hold these companies accountable and vote with their dollars and call these companies and ask for these changes. And so anyways, it's something that

I think what's interesting and the reason why I think I've been able to get so much done is because people realize that an ordinary person can really make change and make their voice heard. And they really resonate with that. And I think one of the other things is that, you know, a lot of the consumer protection agencies talk about the chemicals, but sometimes they don't relate those to everyday products people use in their homes. And that's one thing I've been able to do with my site is really show people, here are the products that have these chemicals. Here are the products that don't have these chemicals. Here's how you avoid them. And here are the products you choose instead that taste similar, that don't have these controversial additives that are good replacements for the things that you love in your kitchen cupboard, in your pantry, in your fridge.

And that's really the essential basis of the Food Babe Way, the new book, is you don't have to give up your favorite things, but here are some replacements for those that will help you live a healthier life. Yeah. And I think that, you know, sort of the analogy is you're sort of this Erin Brockovich, you know, type character. And it wouldn't have been, you know, 20 years ago, it would have been much more difficult for you to be able to kind of create the juggernaut that you've been able to create. But because of the internet and because we're now at this place where we're like, I mean, look, I'm just trying to imagine like, you know, a while back,

like you or somebody like yourself, you know, sending letters or calling up, you know, Procter & Gamble and saying, I'd like to know what's in this product. And they could just ignore you. I mean, what are you going to do? Maybe you can write an op-ed piece for your local newspaper, but now there's so much, you know, power and, you know, with the, uh, the sort of channels of information distribution that, that we now have that it's a different, it's a different world. And that, and that level of transparency that they're now forced to adhere to is something that is unprecedented and obviously

is, you know, good for consumers. But for these companies to have to say, what, you mean, we have to actually tell you what's in our food or what's in our consumer product? Like, you know, we don't, we don't, we've never had to, you know, manage this before. Yeah, no, it's really, really a different landscape on how to get things to change. I mean, I think about this teenager, Sarah Kavanaugh, who was just a teenager in Mississippi and wondered what this BVO ingredient was on the back of her Gatorade and decided to Google it and found out that it's a flame retardant and decided to start a petition because she felt that something healthy like Gatorade shouldn't have a flame retardant in it that's banned in other countries that's linked to health issues. And, you know,

she succeeded. She not only got Gatorade to drop that, but the Powerade has also dropped it and other companies have dropped that chemical. And that's a chemical that really doesn't need to be in our food supply. It's actually a chemical we feed to pregnant women to test them for gestational diabetes. It's just absolutely horrid the things that we allow in our food and the things even in hospitals that people consume. And why would it be, why would they include it in there? I mean, it has some sort of preservative aspect to it or like what would be the rationale for having it in there at all? Yeah, it just it even evenly disperses the the coloring and additives throughout the product. And so it adds some, you know, chemical appearance benefit. And so that's what's so interesting about the majority of chemicals that have been introduced into our food supply.

They really haven't been for the consumer benefit, but rather the food industry benefit to increase the bottom line of the food industry. When we look back 30 years ago when Congress gave the FDA a regulatory oversight of our food additives, there were about 800 food additives. Now there's over 10,000 and the FDA even admits, you know, Michael Taylor went on record, the deputy commissioner of the FDA said that they don't know the amount of chemicals the American public is being exposed to. He says that he doesn't think that the, you know, the FDA can reasonably do what the public expects of them. And that is what's really scary, is that our own FDA cannot regulate these food additives and that the majority of food additives are tested by the food companies themselves. Some of them are never reviewed

by the FDA and they're given generally regarded as safe or otherwise known as grasp status. as safe or otherwise known as grasp status. And they're just being put into our food supply very blindly. And how many food additives are we eating at breakfast, at lunch, at dinner? How many are we eating in a week? How many are we eating in a month, in a year, over our lifetime? Does that have an accumulative effect on the way our bodies react? And that is information we're just starting to learn and that we're just at the tip of the iceberg to really understand. And that's the stuff that I really want people to understand is that, you know, when I personally removed these food additives and food invention chemicals out of my diet, my life changed. I mean, I went from someone who was very sick on several prescription drugs, had eczema, asthma, allergies, was overweight to like a new being of health. I mean, I really felt

like a zombie for most of my life in a foreign body. And when I look at myself now and realize how much better I feel, I mean, I can't even imagine that I allowed myself to live that way for so long, but I just didn't even know any better. I didn, I can't even imagine that I allowed myself to live that way for so long, but I just didn't even know any better. I didn't know that these ailments had anything to do with the way I was eating. I just thought I was born with them. Right. I mean, you look on your website, you see those before pictures. I mean, you look like a completely different person. I mean, this really is a, you know, a journey of, you know, your own personal discovery as much as anything else. I mean, right. I mean, this is, this is, uh, this is, I mean, this is really, you know, day by day,

I'm just trying to figure this out, you know, becoming a food activist and starting the blog was really all by accident. Really. I wanted to call the blog, eat healthy, live forever.com and just write about recipes. I had no idea it was going to turn into this activist-focused, changing-the-world type of blog. I had no idea I would be able to affect multi-billion-dollar companies overnight. I mean, when I even say that, I don't even believe it because I just wake up in awe every day. Yeah, it's pretty crazy. Yeah, it is really crazy. So just to kind of step it back here, like imagine I'm a typical soccer mom. I got a couple of kids. I'm dropping kids off from school. I'm taking them to their

piano lesson and I'm busy. I've got limited attention span. I've got a limited amount of time. I'm stressed out. I'm just trying to make it through the day. And when I go to the grocery store, you know, I try to make the good choice for my kids. And of course I love my kids and I want them to, you know, eat healthy. And sometimes when they nag me to get this kind of food or that kind of mac and cheese, it's easier to just give in and give it to them because, you know, who's got, I'm exhausted and, and I'm trying, and I'm trying to, you know, I'm trying to educate myself, but like who has time, right? So what do you say to that person who, you know, isn't going to sit down and read your blog every day, but kind of wants a primer on making better choices? That, this is exactly why I wrote my book. This is exactly why for that person, for that mom, for the person who is too busy to figure this life. And I want really to give people the

strategies on what to do in those circumstances, how to eat out at any restaurant in the world, like whether you're in a Japanese restaurant, an Italian restaurant, a Thai restaurant, what to do, what to do when you're traveling, what to do when you're out in social situations, you know, what to do first thing in the morning, that a simple little task that you can do in the morning to benefit your health that doesn't require a lot of time or money or fancy supplements or anything like that. This is about really habits that you can start living right now. And you can just do one each day. It doesn't have to, you know, this isn't like an all or nothing thing. This isn't a way is not a deprivation type plan. It's not a deprivation diet. This is really to change your way of life and your way of thinking. And really, you know,

this is the book that I wish I had when I started uncovering what was happening in the food industry in a book that didn't have to take me 10 years to figure out all of these different habits, although it did. So I put all that information in here so that it's easily consumable, that anybody can really pick this up and start living this way and get empowered. You know, one of the things that I think is just so important, and this is the whole like, you know, the whole basis behind the blog, which is really to know what you're eating, what is in your food is the basic question. And once you figure that out and you understand that information, it's really quite simply easy to live a healthy lifestyle because once you start figuring out that you

need to put the most nutritious foods in the planet, the foods that give you life rather than take it away, you start to change your body dramatically. Right. I mean, knowledge is power, obviously. And if I could distill your book down to one very pithy kind of theme or statement, it would sort of be, I mean, correct me if you disagree with me, but it's, I mean, it's, it's kind of this idea of if you can't pronounce it, don't eat it, right? Like this is about getting back to, you know, the most natural way of eating and living, which is basically whole foods close to their natural state. Yeah. And I mean, I, you know, that's a great, a great quote from, I think Michael Pollan had that in his food rules. But, you know, I would like to take it a step further. You know, if you don't

recognize it as food, don't eat it. Because really, these are food industry inventions. They've been invented in the last 30 years. They don't serve nutritional purposes for our body. And we don't know how our body's reacting to all of these chemicals. So I know from my own experience that reducing the amount of processed foods in my diet, the processed chemicals that are in food, my body changed dramatically. And when, you know, one of the things that people don't really realize is that cravings are really associated with nutrient imbalance. And once

you start to get those nutrients in your body, all of those cravings for foods that you normally wanted to eat before go away and you start to become satisfied as a human. You stop thinking about food all the time and you start to really feel the benefits of what food can add to your body and you start to realize that, wow, it really can rejuvenate your skin, your hair and your nails and make you look 10 times younger than you were when you were 10 years younger. So there's definitely some magic behind this. But there's also a lot of science that, you know, I reference in the book that have been has been conducted by big consumer agencies, and other scientists around the globe

that are speaking out about these chemicals. And I reference all that information in the book. And this is, you know, I really stand on the shoulder of these experts. You know, a lot of my critics like to say that I'm not backed by science or I'm not scientific or I'm scientifically illiterate. You know, I did not make up the fact that carrageenan is linked to intestinal issues. This is data that's coming out that shows this, that when carrageenan was, you know, added to our food supply, it was using a very small amount. Now it's being added to all of these nut milks and alternative milks and people are drinking, you know, um, gallons of it by week, you know, and it's causing an issue. And so it's something to be, you know,

worried about and discuss, especially if you're having intestinal issues or stomach issues, or if you're always bloated. And I tell you, I don't know how many people I've heard that when they've removed that from their diet, how much better they felt. And just knowing that is just so, so awesome. I mean, the same thing goes for artificial food dyes. I mean, they have a warning label in Europe for a reason, you know, that says may cause adverse effects on activity and attention in children for a reason, because it does. Here in the United States, we don't give our citizens that protection. So we need to take back control of this information. We need to know what we're eating so that we can make the best informed decisions for ourselves.

And there's this idea that, listen, you know, I think we kind of walk around and think, well, the government is looking out for us. And if it was really that bad, you know, I think we kind of walk around and think, well, the government is looking out for us. And if it was really that bad, you know, wouldn't there be a law against it? Or they would hold these companies accountable. Or if this was really unhealthy, you know, the companies wouldn't put it in the food. And the companies are simultaneously going, well, if people didn't want to eat it, then they wouldn't buy it. And so we're in this sort of, you know, system where we're kind of both, you know, blithely kind of and ignorantly and sort of unwillfully, you know, participating in something that, you know, we don't want to be participating in. That's right.

And, you know, thankfully, now that is changing. People are becoming aware of what's happening, and that's the fastest way to change it. I think before we weren't aware. I think back to my parents. They came from India in their 20s, and when they got here, they started eating McDonald's hamburgers. They'd never had beef before. They didn't eat meat in India. They made everything from scratch.

They had one cow that they shared with their whole community, and they would use that milk a little bit for yogurt as like, you know, a condiment. It wouldn't be something they had every day. And, you know, they just lived a very healthy lifestyle there. So when they came to the United States and started eating American food, their health changed dramatically. And just to think, you know, they didn't have the knowledge about, you know, all of these food additives and food chemicals that are in our food supply. Back then, the ingredients weren't available in McDonald's and Burger King and all of these fast food giants. And now, finally, thank goodness, a lot of this information is available online. People can have it at their fingertips, and it's on the back of packages.

tips and it's on the back of packages, but there's still companies like, for example, Starbucks that doesn't have their ingredients listed in their drinks online, which I feel that is absolutely appalling, as well as like Papa John's, which is one of the biggest pizza chains in this country. And they don't put ingredients, but their competitors do like Domino's and Pizza Hut. So there's still a lot of change that needs to happen as far as transparency. But once I think we have a transparent system where we really know what's in our food, companies are going to be held accountable to change. We've already seen that in the non-GMO space. There's a huge article that came out in the New York Times recently that talks about that, how even though there's this huge fight within the state level of getting labeling passed because these huge companies have spent millions of dollars to misinform people, you see companies already reacting.

They're changing to non-GMO products and non-GMO packaging and non-GMO ingredients. So you see that across the board, and that change can really happen once people become aware. Yeah, I mean, it's about consumer demand. And I think, you know, something you said earlier is really kind of illuminating, which is, you know, the difference between the ingredients that a large food manufacturer will put in the United States version of a particular food versus what finds its way into the European version of that food and the difference in regulations abroad. And I think just the simple fact that, you know, you see developed countries across the EU that won't permit certain things that we permissibly allow to find their way into our food

system here should give everybody pause. Yeah. You know, one of the key examples of that, Rich, is just it's so maddening. You know, cereal is so popular with children. I mean, millions of children eat cereal for breakfast. And two of the largest cereal manufacturers, General Mills and Kellogg's, they both use this ingredient called BHT to add shelf life and preserve the cereal longer so it can sit on the shelf longer to increase profits here in the United States, really. And in Europe, they're not allowed to use it in cereal. They're not allowed to add it to the packaging in cereal like they do here. And so what did these companies do? They didn't stop selling their cereal in other countries. They took that BHT ingredient out. And why that's so interesting is that BHT is one of the most risky ingredients in our food supply. It's linked to cancer and animal studies. And it is also an endocrine disruptor that messes with hormones.

And when we think about little kids and their hormones, and we think about, you know, puberty coming early and all of these issues coming about and all of the issues associated with endocrine disrupting chemicals in our society, that's very scary that, you know, little kids who could be eating cereal every day are exposed to this chemical that isn't necessary in our food. These food companies have found a way without it for other countries. They found safer alternatives that don't impact us in the same way that BHT does. And I really think that that's one of the chemicals that needs to go. I mean, if they don't use it in products in other countries, they should show us the same respect. It's very shameful and appalling that these companies are allowed to get away with that. And I would imagine that one of

the big arguments they use is, well, there's no proof that this is harmful to human health, because for whatever reason, no study has been performed on humans. I mean, I'm 48, and I'm really the first generation to grow up with processed foods since I was a child, right? Before that, like you were referencing your parents, like it didn't exist. And now we export this lifestyle, this diet all across the world, and the world is now suffering, you know, sort of health ramifications as a result of this. And, you know, what you're seeing now with young people is a proliferation of all kinds of crazy allergies. And, you know, whether it's, I mean,

you start to sound like a crazy conspiracy theorist if you start talking about autism and all these sorts of things. But really, it seems to me as just from a sort of a lay person looking down on this or looking in on this, that we're seeing a much larger incidence of kind of health issues than maybe 20 years ago. Yeah, no, absolutely. And that's one of the reasons I'm doing what I'm doing is, you know, I wish instead of saying that there's not absolute proof that these chemicals cause harm, I think we should be taking a precautionary principle like Europe does and other countries do. And they say, you know what, if there is any justification that this could be a guilty ingredient, we shouldn't put it in our food supply. If there's any controversy associated with this chemical,

it shouldn't be given to children in cereal. Yeah, the burden of proof needs to be reversed. The burden of proof should be to establish that it's safe, not that it's not harmful. Exactly. Like chemicals in other countries, usually they're guilty until proven innocent. Here, they're innocent until proven guilty. And I think that needs to change. The moral standard isn't always scientifically sound. And that's one thing I've realized. And, you know, one of, again, some of the criticism I get from some of the vocal critics out there, and it's really not the consensus, because I tell you, if you look at the studies and scientific data behind these chemicals,

there isn't enough to say that they are safe. And, you know, one of the things that is really interesting is, you know, I wish these food scientists and food chemists would develop products that bring nutrition to the human body and human being, not a risky alternative that just provides benefit to the food industry in their bottom line. Well, there's no money in that, Vani. Come on. Well, there isn't. You're right. And then that's part of the problem and why I'm, you know, why I'm up against such a beast and why I really do feel like David versus Goliath in this, because there is so much money involved. I mean, billions of dollars. And

I am just, you know, I hope that, you know, I'm able to have enough courage and I'm brave enough to continue this fight because I tell you, it has not been easy, Rich. You know, I did not expect the amount of hatred to grow online or the type of pushback I've gotten from certain vocal skeptic groups and things like that. And it's like they want to make it into this big fight. And I'm not against them. I'm not against these scientists. I'm really looking forward to them to try to improve our food industry so that we get

more healthier as a result. We don't continue this trajectory of disease in this country and around the world. And so really, I'm asking consumers to make an educated, common sense decision about their food based on the research and based on the information that we know thus far about how these chemicals react in our body. You know, one of the things that's really interesting is, you know, the, you know, chemicals, the reason why we do animal studies is because most chemicals do not cause cancer in animals. So when they do, we should pay attention. And that's what I'm saying is that we should really look at this stuff. And again, I just go back to my story, as well as countless other people I've heard is

when they remove these chemicals and processed foods from their diet, they start to get healthier and achieve an amount of health they've never thought was possible. It's because a lot of these processed chemicals, again, provide no nutrition to the body, provide no benefit to the consumer, only to the food industry themselves. Yeah, well, I'm a living example of that. I mean, I can attest to that for sure. I mean, my life changed completely when I removed, you know, these things from my diet. I mean, let's talk about the critics for a minute. I mean, you know, certainly, you know, you're not without them. And, and, you know, anytime you kind of draw a line in the sand and take a hard stance, and you're kind of going up, you know, to use your word as in this sort of David versus Goliath way, which I think is very accurate. they're not going to just stand idly by.

And so, you know, you're on the receiving end of, you know, some harsh words. And a lot of like, you know, I poked around the Internet. I was like, a lot of like low blows. And I also read your response to your critics. And I was amazed at just, you know, the level of misogyny and just kind of things that have nothing to do with the actual issue at hand. the actual issue at hand. But I think what's interesting is you're being criticized for not being or being something that you never said that you were. They're saying, well, you're not a scientist. And your whole thing is, of course I'm not. I'm just somebody who had this experience. And now I'm taking matters into my own hands. I'm trying to be an advocate. I'm trying to educate people. But I feel like they're sort of hitting you for things that you never, you know, sort of purported to be or do.

Yeah. It's really interesting. And, and this is, this is kind of, you know, one of the things that I realized, um, uh, trying to, trying to explain what's happening to me, you know, at first I didn't, it didn't feel good at all. And I tell you, and I didn't expect it. And maybe it was very naive of me. I just thought if I told the truth and I got these companies to make the right decisions and make the decisions that they've made in other countries already, that, you know, all good would happen. I never thought that there would be this major pushback. And I didn't really, I guess, understand the impact that I was making, the millions of dollars I was changing in these companies.

Yes, they were losing money. millions of dollars. I was changing in this, in these companies. Yes, they were losing money, but, you know, hopefully they'll, you know, be able to innovate and be able to create products that really provide health and make money in the future. But, you know, I just, I guess I didn't really fully understand the impact of that. So I, you know, took everything very personally at first. And now I'm starting to understand that this is par for course, whether you're dealing with big, huge chemical companies or big food companies, they like to attack the messenger and they'll come up with a narrative to make the messenger look crazy and stupid. And they do it in a very indirect way. Like they'll have

shills under sort of anonymous social media, you know, on sites with certain names and post stuff on your pages and make it look like, you know, like-minded consumers are saying these things when it's really from the police for cyberbullying that literally will create profiles over and over again. They've gotten around being banned from the Facebook page or from my site and will just create new and new profiles and have figured out how to do that. They create videos on YouTube to tell other people how to keep harassing me. how to do that. They create videos on YouTube to tell other people how to keep harassing me. And not to mention, they've already tried to take over the reviews on Goodreads. And they've already planned when the book comes out on February 10th, the release date to go and leave one-star reviews on Amazon without even having read the book. They really want to prevent this message from getting out there. And I tell you, it's really hard because it's like something I cannot control.

This is going to happen. And all I can pray and hope for is that this message gets out there. And I have to remember that I almost got to feel like what I am doing, it's not me, right? It's not Bonnie Hart. It's not me. And not to take it personally, because it's really bigger than that. And I tell you, it's not easy because every single day I get a threat, you know, every single day now I am harassed. Wow. Yeah, I would not. I mean, I have thick skin. That would be tough. That would be really tough. I mean, even when I think I'm doing something that I didn't want to do,

that I'm going out of my comfort level to do because I think it's the right thing to do, even like sharing my old photos, to some people, they still have something negative to say about that. And it's just really disheartening, and it's really sad. And I'm not the only person that's getting this. A lot of the activists in the movement have gotten this as well. And this is something that is really frightening. One of the things that it's really hard to talk about is when I go speak. When I go speak at different universities and in public, they send their kind of, you know, their force out there to publicly

discredit me, to try to stump me. You know, when I'm speaking, they haven't been able to do that thus far, but they try to, and they send people to follow me around. When you say, when you say they, like, who do you, who do you, who do you, you know, I'm not sure who's pulling the strings behind the scenes, but I do know that, for example, there are people that are associated with these big biotech and chemical companies. I mean, for example, when I was speaking at Blog Her Food just in May of last year, Monsanto was in the audience. Monsanto and their head PR was in the audience. the audience. Monsanto and their head PR was in the audience. And ever since that day, things have not been quite the same since I've gone out to speak. They've really, they've really, they will, they will inform their cronies and send their troops out to come to the events. It's really

interesting. And it's very scary. And I've actually thought about getting security in a security guard. Wow, that's amazing. Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, I think that, you know, I look at you and I go, all right, well, here's somebody who's just, who's trying to hold these food companies accountable and say, hey, these are ingredients in your food. People should know about this. Or why aren't you telling me what's in this food? You know what I mean? Like, this is a telling me what's in this food? You know what I mean? Like, this is a consumer, you know, protection agency, you know, one person consumer protection agency, like you said. And, and, you know, I kind of, I think then about like, what's going on, for example, in the animal rights movement, and they've actually enacted laws like

these, you know, these laws that prevent people from basically documenting what's going on in slaughterhouses, et cetera, because they don't want that kind of transparency. And if consumers are aware of kind of how these companies operate, then that would cause, you know, sort of undue, you know, ramifications that these companies don't want. ramifications that these companies don't want. And I think that when you look at the, you sort of extrapolate from that, you know, we're not that far off in terms of, you know, that kind of thing happening in our general kind of, you know, food industry, when I look at what's happening to you personally. Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, I mean, if they're willing to spend over $100 million to prevent us from knowing what's in our food and preventing us from GMO labeling, how much money are they willing to spend a PR firm to destroy my name? Oh, of course. Yeah. It's nothing.

It costs them nothing. Yeah. And the upside is huge to discredit you. So why not, right? I mean it was really interesting. Over the summer. I think I had three or four articles that all came out in the same week that were very negative in nature. And I was just like, and I mean, a couple of them, I had to get retractions because I had to have

corrections. I couldn't believe that certain, um, uh, magazines and, and news articles would even come out like that, like without fact checking, you know, and then even there's a recent article that was on an NPR blog that they didn't even wait for me to reply back and give any comments. They said it just wasn't available. And I thought that was really crazy strange that they would write such a one sided article. And that's what really allowed me up or eventually led me to do that huge reply to the critics and really answer each one of their points, you know, all the way down. I mean, you know, you know, here's the deal is if you have to be a scientist or a doctor or a nutritionist to know how to eat, that is kind of a problem. That is an issue in itself. And so really, all of us should

learn how to be our own nutritionist. And really, this is what the Food Babe way is about. It's about teaching ourselves how to eat the most nutritious foods on the planet and how to rid our bodies of all these chemicals that we are being exposed to that, you know, we're part of this massive experiment that, you know, I personally want to opt myself out of, you've opted yourself out of, Rich, and I think other people need to, too, and I think they would realize some level of health they never thought was possible. I love that message. I mean, really, it's just, it's an empowering message to say, hey, I'm introducing you to this idea, now you take it from here. Do your own research.

And you take this where you need to take it to improve your own life. And I think that's great. And I wanted to get back to this idea of kind of government oversight and government regulations. Like disabuse us of this idea of how the FDA sort of operates to protect us all. Like how does this organization truly function in your experience? Like, what have you learned over the last three years about how, you know, these government organizations that we've kind of deputized to sort of watch out for us, you know, what's the reality versus, you know, the theoretical, you know, sort of application?

Yeah, I mean, they've been completely co-opted by the food industry and it's very sickening. And I'll just give you one example. I think that really rings home for a lot of people is red number three. Red number three was banned in cosmetics because it was linked to animal studies. And when they went to ban it in food, the maraschino cherry industry raised a fit and got the legislation to say that there needed to be more studies for it in food versus cosmetics. I mean, does that make any sense to you? It makes no logical sense. So still today, you'll find red number three in things like bacon bits and even Morningstar veggie bacon and grits. I mean, you know, in the South here, we eat a lot of grits.

I mean, in Quaker grits, you'll find red number three in some varieties. And this is an ingredient that has been shown to cause cancer in animals and is banned. You cannot use it in lipstick, but it's still in our food. not use it in lipstick, but it's still in our food. This is how dysfunctional the FDA is and how dysfunctional they are and incapable of regulating our food additives. And that's why we as consumers need to learn about them ourselves. And we need to decide whether we want to be part of this experiment. And we also need to say, you know, do I want to eat all these chemicals? And we should have a choice. We shouldn't just say, I have to eat these because they're in my food and I'm just going to have to deal with it. It's not like that anymore. We're getting more transparency. We're learning about

these ingredients. Consumer protection agencies are studying it. They have teams of scientists. I'm talking about the Respected Environmental Working Group, the Center of Scientific Interest, the Consumers Union, the Cornucopia Institute, all of these different organizations that are out there. And I'm really standing on the shoulder of these experts and this data. And I'm asking – I've started an advisory board where I go and I ask food scientists and chemists and things about my campaigns before I launch them to get their support. Right, right. Interesting. I mean, that story you just told reminds me of the aspartame, the story of how aspartame became legal. Do you know this story with Donald Rumsfeld and Searle and Monsanto? Yeah.

You have this, how this happened, like it basically, the FDA every year would say, there's no way, this stuff's not healthy, there's no way the stuff's not healthy. There's no way we're approving this. And then when I'm going to butcher the story because I don't remember it perfectly accurately, but it has something to do with the fact that Rumsfeld starts to get involved in politics. He has some influence and then he's able to influence the appointment of a new board member to the FDA, which then sort of tips the scales in terms of voting and then gets aspartame, you know, before the panel again, and it gets approved, something that had been sort of declined, you know, year after year after year. And suddenly,

once you're in, then it's not going the other way, right? No, no, not at all. I mean, still, azodicarbonamide is still in some bread in the United States, even though the majority of it has been removed since the subway campaign because a lot of different bakeries and manufacturers were put on a lot of heat after that because so many people learned about that chemical that is banned in all these other countries because it's linked to cancer and also linked to health issues and people that handle it. And, um, but it's still in our bread. Our FDA thinks it's perfectly fine for people to make this bread with it and be exposed to asthma inducing chemicals while they're in the bakery. Like they think that's completely fine. And I don't think that's

completely fine. I think we need, uh, the companies themselves to remove it. But I also think the FDA needs to be completely overhauled. And when people ask me, they're like, well, where do you see yourself in like, you know, 10 years, 15 years, you know, I really think we need to do something about this. And I don't know what the, you know, what the answer is right now. And I think that the fastest way to get change is really to hold these companies accountable who are really the holders of the power to make these changes the fastest and to really inspire consumers to rise up so that they demand better products. But I do think at some point there needs to be something done because it is absolutely appalling what's happening. Yeah. And I think in order to get them to change, you have to make a big enough stink and get enough people to pay attention to what you're saying in order to do that. So one of the criticisms of you is that you come up with these really outrageous titles for your campaigns, like the whole yoga mat in

the subway bread and like, oh, well, that's totally not accurate. That's not exactly what it was, you know, what it is. And like, you know, it's sort of, it's an exaggeration and all that sort of thing. But, you know, here's an example. Like I've told people over the last couple of weeks, like, oh, you know, people are, who are you going to have on the podcast soon? I'd mentioned some names and I'd say, oh, Vani Hari. And they're like, who's that? And I'm like, oh, Food Babe. And they're like, oh, I think I've heard it. I know Food. I think I know who Food Babe is. And then I'd say, remember the whole like subway bread yoga mat thing? And they're like, oh, yeah, like everybody's heard of, everybody knows what that is. And I'm like, yeah, that's her. So I feel like you kind of have to do that to get on the radar and get people's

attention in order to kind of, you know, pursue your campaign. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, you know, and I was very accurate in my video and on my petition, I said, it's a chemical that's used in yoga mats, you know, and I just wanted people to be able to relate this really long chemical name that they had never heard before to something else so that they can make some application to it. And I think, you know, when it comes to the busy world that we're living in, we're all trying to just get by and eat and take care of our families and do our work and do what we're supposed to do here on this earth. You know, not everybody has time to sit down and understand all of these chemicals. Now, if I come out and said, this is a chemical, it's bad, we need to remove it. I don't know if I would out and said, this is a chemical, it's bad,

we need to remove it. I don't know if I would have had as big of an impact to tell you. No, there's no way, you know, like, okay, well, what's new? Like, you know, you look at any label, you know what I mean? It's full of chemicals. So what's so different about this? I'm sure it's fine or it wouldn't be in there. Right. And I just, I think it's really important for people to understand how to apply it to their own knowledge. And, and, you know, the same thing happened with the beer campaign. I got a very, I got the same kind of criticism when I, when I talked about the antifreeze ingredient, propylene glycol, which is an alcohol. It is a, it is an approved ingredient by the FT, by the TTB, um, the regulatory agency that oversees alcohol in this country. Um, it is an approved ingredient. There is another one called propylene glycol alginate,

which is made from kelp, but there's also the antifreeze variety, the one that fireball actually had to recall from Europe because it had too much of, because they actually, uh, limit it at a lower amount in other countries, which is, again, another interesting comparison to how we regulate our additives. But, you know, I got some slack for that. And also just pointing out that there's fish swim bladder in beer as a clarifying agent. I wasn't saying it was harmful or going to kill you or anything like that. I was just saying that this is an ingredient in beer that you may not know that is there. And that's why I think it's important to have ingredients listed on a beer bottle or on alcohol or on wine for that matter, because there are vegans, there are vegetarians out there. There are people who care about what they're consuming.

And when I hear, you know, back from like a place like like Guinness who uses this ingredient, says there could be trace amounts of this fish swim bladder in their beer, people want to know. We just like to know what we're eating. It's the same thing as when Starbucks was using crushed up bugs to color their strawberry frappuccinos. The vegan and vegetarian community really rose up against that. They didn't want that anymore. And so they switched to lycopene that comes from tomatoes. But, you know, we just, I think it's really important for transparency on what's in our food. And, you know, I think what, you know, you know, here's the deal is when you're successful and you get things done, people are going to remark on it. And I think that's just an important thing I need to always remember. I feel like you're reminding yourself of that right now.

Yeah, I can't take everything people say about me and take it to heart because a lot of it's just really is anger at the successful nature of all the campaigns that I've been able to lead. And I've really forced these companies to change their policies. So what are some of the sort of common practices that you've seen some of these food companies undertake to kind of trick or trick us or obscure what they're really doing or kind of, you know, hide hide from the consumer? What's really in these foods? I mean, what what what are some of the things you've you've, you know, if you could generalize that you've come across? Sure. You know, there's a lot of research that I've been doing lately, and this could be probably research for my next book, but just things that you wouldn't understand or even know about the average person. So there were some leaked documents, for example, that I came across that I've been trying to research and learn more about and get even more information than what's been presented in books and through these documents. But for example, Kraft, when they were owned by the same company that owned them and Philip Morris,

they were sharing research with Philip Morris and how our brain becomes addicted to chemicals and addicted to food and sharing that research. And that was very interesting and very scary to read at the same time. That is terrifying. And so you can only imagine, you know, do the combination of all of these different food additives, do they create addiction? And are they trying to manufacture these foods so that we can't stop eating them? And I really do believe that's happening. You know, we see that

with hidden MSG additives. You know, most of the companies have taken out monosodium glutamate from their products, but they've added back in other products that mimic the exact same taste and the exact same result of using MSG. And that's what's very scary. And it can be hidden under several different names. I've actually got all of those listed in the book so you know what to look out for. But that is something that's really interesting and something I want to do even more research on. I mean, there's so many different flavors that huge chemical companies are inventing,

things that can be made out of anything natural or even anything artificial to mimic real food, to make you think you're eating real food when you're really not. And that's really tricky. And I think the consumer really needs to know that it's happening. Another thing that I've been researching lately, and I'm going to have a new blog post soon, is on scent marketing, how companies actually will put different scents in an oven or in their store or in their locations to make you crave and make you remember a taste and smell a taste and can't help but go and order

something as a result. That's so interesting. That's amazing. I mean, as somebody who is an addict, like I'm in recovery, there's no question in my mind that these food products, that there's a proliferation of food products out there that are specifically and scientifically devised to activate the pleasure centers in your brain and create an addictive response. And for the listener out there who wants to sort of maybe read up a little bit more on that specific subject, I would recommend reading Salt, Sugar, Fat by Michael Morris. I'm sure you've read that book, right? Yeah, great book. I love it. Yeah. It's sort of like, wake up, you know, there's too much money to be made. You could put this product out and they're the they can that

very cheaply that creates that addictive response. You have a customer for life. I mean, this is, you know, this is this is this is the keys to, you know, the kingdom if you can figure that stuff out. And if you think that companies are not exploring that, then I think that you need to wake up, right? Yeah, definitely. And there's a lot of stuff happening in that realm. And you just, you know, they're spending a lot of money on this food science to figure out how they can create new inventions and new flavors and new products, because that's really the name of the game and how to make them more money. And I just hope that the people who I've been helping gather in the armies out there that are really fighting for better food really hold these companies accountable and get them

to develop products that bring nutrition and more health to our society instead of take it away. Right. That's great. And, you know, I know we've got to wrap it up here and I've got to let you go in a couple minutes, but I kind of want to – I have two things that I want to talk to you about real quick before we end this. And the first thing is if there's, you know, a couple things that you could leave people with in terms of sort of the biggest culprits to avoid. I mean, I know you have your sickening 15 in the book. But if you, you know, if you're in an elevator riding with somebody and they're like, just tell me, like, you know, the main things that I need to steer clear of to not get sick. Like, what would your response to that be?

Okay. So, a couple things. So, number one, I would choose antibiotics. So when you're deciding to choose to eat meat, make sure it's not raised with antibiotics. And the majority of meat that's available is raised with antibiotics. So when you're out, you know, at a restaurant or you're in a situation, you don't know, order vegan, order vegetarian. And I absolutely recommend that because when I met the former general for the U.S. Army, Wesley Clark, I asked him, what's your biggest food issue? What do you think could really threaten the human population? And he said,

antibiotic resistance, that it could really wipe out the human race. If we continue to allow the antibiotics to be fed to these animals, I mean, right now, 80% of our antibiotics is fed to livestock and animals in this country. It's leaching into our water and our land and our environment, and that's getting into our bodies. I mean, it's getting into our system and it's really having a detrimental impact in our ability to fight off superbugs. And when we need to have antibiotics to fight off things, it doesn't work anymore. How do you know if the meat that you're buying is antibiotic-free? I mean, just having it stamped organic or grass-fed,

that doesn't mean necessarily that it's antibiotic-free, does it? Yeah, it has to be USDA-certified organic. All right, got it. Yes, USDA- USDA certified organic. All right, got it. Yes, USDA certified organic. Or it can have a stamp on there that says not raised with antibiotics as well. I mean, that should do it as well. But, you know, the reason why you would want to go organic is you would want to avoid the growth hormone that's allowed in this country, not allowed in other countries. It's linked to cancer.

This is something that you want to avoid in general too. So it's really important to choose your meat nor dairy organic. And if it's not available, don't eat it. I mean, that was one of the most saving graces that I had. You know, I'm not, I don't, I don't go by a dogmatic diet principle, but I eat pretty much 90% plant-based. But you know, one of the things I realized is when I'm traveling or I'm on the road for work, I mean, one of the easiest ways to stay healthy is to go vegan, vegetarian on the road. You really can get access to a lot of good vegetables and fruits and you can supplement with nuts and seeds and other proteins and things. And, Rich, you know. I know.

You're not getting – I'm just going to sit here and let you talk because you're not going to get an argument from me on that. And so it's just super important. And, you know, I think one of the other things with the antibiotic issue that's really important is there's this groundbreaking research in this book called Missing Microbes by Martin Blaser. the overuse of antibiotics and even the, you know, when we're a child and we're given antibiotics to treat certain things that aren't treatable by antibiotics and we just overuse them, it really affects our gut flora and our bacteria and our, and our system and can really affect our metabolism. So he's done some research that shows that the metabolism of animals changes when they're exposed to antibiotics, the same way when we feed low dose antibiotics to animals, they get fat. I mean, that's why the farmers use it. So they fatten up these animals faster. Well, the same thing's happening to us. So if

you're looking to get healthier and lean and, and, um, and want to live at really, uh, a superb, um, healthy life, get rid of the antibiotics in your life. Yeah, I mean, I think that you absolutely have to. You know, we were talking earlier about the proliferation of all these allergies and whatnot. And I think that you're also seeing this huge sort of upswing in all of these digestive disorders like ulcerative colitis, et cetera. And I would have to imagine that there's a connection between antibiotics in the food system and, you know, sort of the depletion of gut flora or, you know, whatever's sort of contributing to leaky gut and all these problems that people have. I mean, I'm not a doctor, so I don't want to talk out of hand.

But to me, it seems elementary that, you know, it's worth looking into and sort of, you know, avoiding, you know, avoiding that. Yeah, no, absolutely. So, so antibiotics is one. Another one that, you know, I think is tricky that I think would just eliminate a lot of processed foods from your diet is just to, refined carbohydrates and, and that's in the form of corn or form of, um, white flour or reform, uh, or, you know, uh, any type of refined oils is really important. I think this, you know, one of the first things that I kind of figured out way back when, before I knew a lot about the food industry or what had been happening to the food industry is that the majority of our food was either corn or soy. And 80% of it was made from

one of those two crops that was like in the middle of the grocery store. And I felt like, well, using my common sense, I was like, well, that doesn't sound that healthy to eat that much corn and soy. And I realized that, you know, they're really inflammatory in the system because they have an abundance of omega-6 and they imbalance your omega-3 and omega-6 fatty acid ratio in your body. And then you have this imbalance of omega-3 and then you have to fortify your body with it. And that's why you see all these products out there that say with omega-3, you can see eggs with it now. And so it's because we've been eating too much corn and soy and canola. And so one of the things that I did was just like, okay, I'm not going to eat any of those oils anymore.

And I'm not going to feed that to my body anymore. And what I found out is that there's actually oils that bring a lot of health to the diet, like coconut oil and olive oil. And I tell you, making that switch, deciding to go from those inflammatory-causing oils to more healthful oils made a huge change in the way I cook, the way I feel. And, I mean, I think that's another big change that people can make. Yeah, and I think when you're talking about soy, corn, and also grain, you know, avoiding those in your diet, if you're eating a lot of meat that's conventionally grown, if you're eating a lot of meat that's conventionally grown, then you're getting all of the corn and the soy and the grain by proxy because that's what they're feeding those animals, right? So whatever preservatives are in all of that and everything that goes into that, you are then absorbing it like kind of secondhand. Yeah. And not to mention the synthetic pesticides and the Roundup

that's being sprayed on all of these conventional crops and the conventional crops that are the GMO crops, rather, that's fed to the majority of animals in this country. And that's very concerning for me. when you look at the president's cancer panel, the panel that says that 41% of us are destined to have cancer, they said that a lot of that risk comes from these environmental toxins of increased pesticides in our environment. And so really, I'm looking to get more sustainable farmland. They make an argument that we need GMOs to feed the world. Well, you know what? We have enough food right now to feed the world. We just need to utilize it better. We need to stop feeding it to animals and start feeding it. Yeah. It's a distribution problem really. And it's going towards the wrong sources. So we need to shift how we're operating that whole system. So, but that's a whole, I mean, we could talk for hours and hours about that. So I'm going

to have to have you back. We can do that one in person. But to wrap it up, like, why don't we, We can do that one in person. But to wrap it up, like, why don't we, you know, besides your book, which everyone should get, and your blog, foodbabe.com, I mean, if somebody is listening to this and they want to deepen their education, you know, sort of outside of your world and take their advocacy, you know, out into the world, like, what are some other places that people can go to learn more about the kind of things that you're passionate about? Yeah, so I have a whole resources section in the very back of the book that's part of an appendix where I list out all of the consumer protection agencies, the consumer agencies that you want to join and you want to donate to to make sure they continue to keep going because they're really fighting for organic farming and for better food. And I also have a list of books that have really changed my life, a list of blogs that I follow and read and that I love and that inspire me and help me and my other friends out there that are fighting for the same things. One of my favorite blogs is livingmaxwell.com from Max Goldberg. He's like an organic food expert. He's always talking about the new organic food on the horizon and really what's happening in the political landscape, how we can get involved with our, with our representatives and, and,

and how to fight back really. And I just, I love that about his blog. And, and also, fight back, really. And I just love that about his blog. And also, you know, I have a section in there in the back of the book, an appendix on how to start a petition, how to start making your voice heard. You know, I think about, yes, you know, I have a blog and I have a readership. And so that's why I think, you know, my petitions are a little bit easier than other people. But I tell you, I think about, again, Sarah Kavanaugh, teenager in Mississippi. She was just a normal everyday high schooler who started to petition on change.org and was able to really change these major companies. And I think everyone has that opportunity. And so really, I give you the basic steps and the strategy on how to do that yourself. So if you want to change Girl Scout cookies, you can do that by starting a petition.

I tell you, that's one of the things that I'm getting almost every day in my inbox is like, I can't believe what's in Girl Scout cookies. We got to do something about this. And I agree, we really do got to do something about it because I had two Girl Scouts at my door. And I tell you, it was sad to say like, listen, I'm not buying any of those cookies,

but I'll give you some donation. Heartbroken Girl Scouts, right? I was a Girl Scout, so I remember, but I need to donate. That's so funny. All right. Well, we got to wrap it up here, but I want to say, Vani, you're an inspiration. Keep doing what you're doing. And I love the mission.

I love the advocacy. It's a pleasure to talk to you. And I think that, you know, support, rightfully so, around a cause, an important cause that impacts all of us. And so I just want you to keep doing what you're doing. And I wish you great success with the book. Thank you so much, Rich. It's a pleasure to be on this podcast with you. And again, I'm so bummed we're not in person. I know, it's terrible. I will tell you this. I have a no Skype policy. I just do not do Skype interviews because for me, the podcast is all about the interpersonal connection. Like I want to sit in the room with a person. I want to

look them in the eye and I want to have that experience. But I felt so strongly about your book and having you on that. I made an exception. I'm glad that I did. And, uh, but next time we have to do it in person. So you have to promise me. No, absolutely. And I'm just, um, so excited to be connected to you and everything that you're doing. And I'm excited about your book that's coming out soon. So, uh, It's exciting. Yes. I'll tell you more about that later, but yeah, it's great. We're, we're really excited. That's why we were in New York and, um, it's coming out in April. So yes, I sent you a galley, didn't I? I haven't gotten it yet, but that doesn't mean that it's not there. I just probably haven't

gotten it. You probably get a lot of books in the mail, don't you? Yeah. All right. All right. Well, I'm going to let you go now. Thank you so much. If you're digging on Vani and you want to learn more, the best place to find out more about her is obviously go to her blog, foodbabe.com. And her book, The Food Babe Way, comes out February 10th. Is that right? Yeah. So it's in one week from tomorrow when we're recording this. That's exciting.

And you have tons of amazing preorder incentives. Do those go away the first day the book is available? And you have tons of amazing pre-order incentives. Do those go away the first day the book is available? We're going to try to keep at least a few of the incentives going strong throughout the month of February. So some of them go away. Some of them have already sold out. But we're trying to make sure everyone gets the ultimate shopping guide, which is so amazing. My team took three months to put it together, traveled all over the United States to the top major grocery stores in the United States to come up with a list of organic, non-GMO foods you can buy anywhere. And so we have those lists compiled for you as well as like the top weight loss foods, the top foods that you

want in your grocery cart. Um, and we put it together in like a 40 page guide that comes, you know, we'll send it to you as soon as you order the book. And then along also with my awesome favorite workout buddies, um, from the Hilliard studio there, there's a local studio here in Charlotte. It's the workout I do every morning. And I tell you, it's really changed my body and I love it. And, you you, it's really changed my body and I love it. And, you know, I've always, you know, I've been able to maintain my weight for a very long time, but I tell you, you know, there's, there's something to be said about that weight training that really just adds that nice physique. And I really, it's really made a difference for me.

So, well, your, your giveaways are unbelievable. When I looked at your, I was like, cause I'm trying to conceptualize what we're going to do now for our book. And I looked at what you're doing and I was like, oh, well forget it. Like I can't even like begin to wrap my head around what it must've taken to put all of that together. And I noticed, I think it was like two weeks ago. Um, I looked at your book on Amazon and you were like number 23. And I was like, her book doesn't even come out for like two, two weeks or three weeks or something. And you're number 23 on Amazon. So your message is getting out there. It's resonating and it's great to see. Thank you so much. Cool. All right. So best of luck and we will cross paths again soon, Bonnie. Yes. All right. Take it easy. Peace. Bye.

Yes. All right. Take it easy. Peace. Bye. Plants. All right. How'd that do you for?

I hope that opened your eyes a bit, left you feeling a little bit more empowered, educated, informed, a little more activist-oriented than when you woke up this morning. Of course. For all your plant power provisions, go to richroll.com, go to mindbodygreen.com for my online courses, The Art of Living with Purpose and The Ultimate Guide to Plant-Based Nutrition. If you dig the show, hit us up with a review on iTunes. Don't forget to subscribe. Some of your questions for future Q&A podcasts, credit for the production, audio engineering, music, sound design on today's show goes to Tyler Pyatt with additional production and editorial support by Chris Swan. Graphic art, as always, done by Sean Patterson. Thanks, you guys. So the assignment for this week. It's been a while since I've given you guys an assignment. I thought I should do that again. So hopefully

you haven't already tuned out. For those of you who are still listening, I want you to walk the aisles of your local grocery store during your next grocery store visit. And when a front side label on a food product catches your eye, some kind of hype, like 20 grams of protein or low in sodium or fat free or whatever it is, I want you to grab that product. I want you to read it. And then I want you to turn it over and compare the claim on the front of the package to the truth borne out by the nutrition facts panel on the backside of the product. Repeat.

Do this a few times and prepare to have your mind blown because it is amazing the lies that you will discover on the packaging, the front packaging of food products. In the words of my nutritionist friend, Jeff Novick, never trust a single word on the front of any food label package. See you guys next week. Peace. Plants.