The Rich Roll Podcast - Hunter Biden Is Out Of Secrets: A Story of Recovery, Exposure & Amends

Episode Date: August 31, 2026

Hunter Biden is a writer, painter, and lawyer who spent a decade being publicly dissected. We explore the trauma beneath the addiction, the anatomy of a relapse, guilt versus shame, and what happens when your covers are pulled so completely that nothing holds power over you anymore. Seven years sober, he calls the worst years of his life a gift. Hunter is proof that prophets walk among us. Enjoy! Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube Newsletter Sign-Up Today’s Sponsors: Eight Sleep: Get $350 off your Pod 5 Ultra with code RICHROLL👉🏼https://www.eightsleep.com/richroll  Noble Mobile: Try Noble for just $10 with code RICHROLL👉🏼https://www.noblemobile.com  Airbnb: Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much👉🏼https://www.airbnb.com/host  Prolon: Get 15% OFF sitewide + a $40 bonus gift👉🏼https://www.prolonlife.com/richroll  Birch: Get 27% off ALL mattresses + 2 free eco-rest pillows👉🏼https://www.BirchLiving.com/richroll Check out all of the amazing discounts from our Sponsors👉🏼https://www.richroll.com/sponsors  Find out more about Voicing Change Media at https://www.voicingchange.media and follow us @voicingchange Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This episode is brought to you by 8 Sleep. If you are new to the show, there's something you may not know about me, which is that for the last seven years, I have slept outdoors in a tent every night because quality sleep does not come easy to me. And temperature regulation is the biggest reason why. And this is something I've solved by two things, the SoCal Nights being generally cool, year-round, and then the 8-Sleep pod five, which regulates the temperature under my sheets to maximize deep sleep. Pod 5 is a smart mattress cover that goes right over your existing setup. And it cools our heats each side of the bed, anywhere from 55 to 110 degrees, and then holds you there all night. It also tracks your sleep and recovery automatically and quietly tunes the temperature over time to what actually works for your unique body. And in July, when the nights get warm and everyone quietly starts sleeping worse, that difference is everything.

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Yeah, I am. It's exactly right. Welcome to the club. Hunter Biden, the son of President Joe Biden. Hunter has been in the center of major political and legal controversies. He addresses his lifelong battle with addiction. When I took my first drink, it seemed to be an answer to everything. And then it wasn't just Coke, it was crack.

And then you chase that answer into your own prison cell. I had the binary choice of live or die. The intensity of what you had to endure? I don't think anybody can understand what that must have been like. I was given the greatest gift that any addict could ever ask for if they can survive it. Total and complete exposure. That has stuck with me. The shame.

I don't know why I've been even telling you this right now. If you think that you are alone, I'm here to tell you, you can make it. It's great to have you here, man. I'm so excited to talk to you. We have a bunch of points of interesting. We're both of a certain age. We're about the same age. And we both came up in and around D.C. in the late 80s and early 90s. I was doing what I was doing. And you were in and out. I mean, you went to Georgetown. My parents live in Georgetown. I was thinking this morning,

there was a fairly decent chance we might have been at the same bar at the same time. Oh, that's probably you. If you were at any of them, I would say. You know, partying. And, and And not realizing it, it's laudatory this mission that you're on. I mean, there are very few people whose lives are not touched by addiction, either directly or indirectly or tangentially. And I see you as somebody who has done a lot of work and is now whole enough to enter the public sphere and talk about this, not from a perspective of, of, trying to repair your public image, but from a real service-oriented motivation to advance understanding and compassion around this cunning, baffling, and powerful disease that has afflicted you, it's afflicted me. It's an animating, you know, reason why I do this podcast. And even if it

impacts one life positively and saves them from some of the suffering, you know, that you suffered and I have suffered, then it's worth it. And it comes across loud and clear. It's clear that's why you're doing it. Where does the addiction story begin for you? I first got sober in 2003. I'm going to go back. And the first time I got sober,

which I stayed sober for extended period of time, I was a firm believer in the idea that, you know, I was a drunk because I was a drunk because I was genetically predisposed to be drunk. And that's it. And there doesn't have to be any other reason. I mean, that's very much an AA thing. It's like, we don't really need to spend a lot of time wondering why.

Yeah. You know, and I'm starting to change my mind about that. And I did. And this time around. And one of the people that helped change my mind was Kapoor-Mate, Dr. Mate. Same for me. Yeah.

And based upon his own anecdotal evidence as treating hardcore addicts in Toronto for extended periods of Toronto, right? Or Vancouver. Vancouver. Yeah. Vancouver for an extended period of time. He came to the conclusion that not a large percentage, but 100% of the people that he was treating all experienced significant trauma in their lives. and it may not be a direct causal connection to addiction, but there is an obvious connection just by virtue of,

as he, I think says in some of the things that I watch. She said there's not a single person that is an addict that he has treated that has not had significant trauma in their life. And so, for me, where does my addiction begin? Part of it may be my genetic predisposal to addiction, which they haven't been able to, figure out, you know, what gene that is necessarily. But part of it's a trauma of my early childhood. My mom and sister and my brother and I were in a car accident. It was an incredibly violent

accident that killed both of them. My brother and I were trapped in the car for an extended period of time. They finally got us out, and I spent about a month in the hospital with traumatic brain injury, and my brother spent, you know, longer in a bodycast for extended period time. And equally significant was the fact that it was essentially like never to be spoken about again. Yeah, it wasn't there wasn't like an open kind of like let's heal this wound kind of environment. My mom, as we called her mommy, mommy and Caspby were always spoken about, but never the accident. And never that trauma afterwards. Never the, you know, the aspect of loss was only the honoring of the, of her memory, of their memory. And the reality was that I was surrounded by love after that.

My Aunt Valerie moved in with us, and she raised Bo and I until my dad got remarried, and we got remarried, as we say. And my uncle Jimmy converted the garage into an apartment for himself, and he was there, and my grandparents on both sides, we spent, you know, an enormous amount of time with and then the wider community because my dad had just got elected he was 29 and so my childhood was filled a lot of love but you know what i was um my brother and i reacted very differently uh to to it you know i was filled with anxiety and when i took my first drink um i remember clear's day is that before i got sick from uh over taking too much of the alcohol in is that it seemed to be an

answer to everything. How old were you? Well, I mean, at that time, I literally snuck a glass of champagne under a table, like when I was eight years old, eight or nine years old, and then snuck another. And I didn't continue drinking after that, but I remember that, vividly remember that. And then when I, you know, I started drinking in high school, and it was the thing that, you know, you could ask the girl to dance. and you know and or you could um you know whatever it is that whatever feeling of being alone in a room

uh uh full of people however it manifested as self was gone once i took a drink and um and that you know and so i developed a persona around uh drinking in georgetown i think the reason that i most wanted to go to georgetown because the drinking age was 18 right in dc until there's I got there. Yeah, I know. I got grandfathered in, I think. I think I was right on the cusp there. But, yeah, it was kind of amazing.

I'm 59. I'm about to turn 60. Yeah, you were grandfathered. Yeah, yeah. And just being 18 and going hog wild, it was, you know, it was a good time. I mean, it works. That's the thing that you're speaking to also. Don't always say.

Why? Because it worked. Yeah. It's very effective. Suddenly, no anxiety. You can walk into the high school dance or the bar. or the cocktail party and just no problem. Yeah.

And I think when we say... I can talk to a girl. I can like, you know, tell a joke, all of that. Yeah. And I think when we say anxiety to people out there, it's like, everybody has a little anxiety. What do you talk? Well, I, you know, I don't know whether it's just like circular, you know, I mean,

reinforcement, but, you know, the anxiety to me was almost debilitating. It made me feel empty inside. You know. And now, you know. And now I know what all of it is, and whether it is the result of the trauma and things like that, but it was all fear. Everything, every bad decision that I made,

every habit that I formed was based on fear. And what I mean by that was with everyone, is that we all have this delusion or illusion that we need to be afraid of, of people places, things, ourselves, of being found out that you're not really who you profess to be, that the mask is going to come off. And so, anyway, going forward to what you were saying, you're so nice to say, and I really mean that. It means a great deal to me, particularly coming from you, is this idea that I've done the work and that it shows. Here's another really honest thing.

I was given the greatest gift that any addict could ever ask for if they can survive it. It's total and complete exposure. I was so publicly humiliated, so publicly exposed with literally video and, you know, in technicolor. On every newspaper in the globe, on every TV screen for a period of time, I was the third most spoken about person on Fox News for a four-year period of time other than Donald Trump and my father. And on top of that, they did 16 hours of documentary film and they took all the pictures from my digital life and put them up for everybody to see. And it wasn't just Coke, it was crack. You know what I mean?

And it was this much crack and it was that. And what that did is it gave me a binary choice. I wish I could say that it was that it was. the result of what most people have to do in order to get to the space. At least I hoped that I'm in today, which is this incredible freedom of being exactly who I am and being comfortable with that, which is they just completely obliterated my ego. And I had the binary choice of live or die. I could go back and I could use and I knew I would die. And if I didn't die at physical death, I obviously die an even worse type of death.

Or I could choose to live. And I chose to live. And I had to learn how to live in that fishbowl. And with everybody seeing all of my faults, not just the pictures, but like the out of context text to, you know, like calling my mother a bad name in a fit of anger and in a, in a, in a, addiction, you know, or like lashing out at so-and-so or, you know, like everything, everything, how I spent my money, you know, on, you know, on sex and things, like all of it, all of it. There's nothing out there that there's nothing that is, that I have as a secret anymore. I don't think anybody could have had their covers pulled and been more nakedly exposed than

you, like in the history of the human race. By the way, I mean, it's absolutely insane that you survive that. I mean, there's rock bottom and there's the dark night of the soul, but the intensity of what you had to endure, like to burn in those flames for such an extended period of time. I don't think anybody can can like understand what that must have been like. No, and here's the thing. I mean, like the New York Post, you know, I was told, I know whether there's true or that I was on the cover of the New York Post in like a year period of time more than any

single other individual in the history of the paper going back to when it was founded in like the late 1700s. And in that though, which you, you like you just creates a choice. If we can get back to the idea of how do we allow that to happen to anyone? I mean, can you, Imagine it, any other person where people wouldn't stand up and say, but they didn't, you know why they didn't? And the reason I'm out there talking about it is because I was a crack addict. And they have a vision and idea of what a crack addict is. It's the lowest of the low in terms of drug addicts. And then you take crack, you know what I mean?

I think that the, you know, I joke, the only thing worse would be a meth addict, but the meth addicts all online tell me, fuck you. Yeah. But it's sufficiently dehumanizing that no one. one's losing sleep over taking shots at you. Exactly. No, and by the way, no one. It didn't matter whether it was on MSNBC or whether it was on Fox News. On the left, they dismissed me as being a degenerate fail son who's tripped it off his father

coattails his whole life. And so, you know, but that's not Joe Biden's problem. It's his problem as a father, not as a president. So, you know, just stay in the corner. over here. That level of dismissal was probably the hardest. It was the hardest for me to get comfortable with and accept it as being the reality of my life at that moment in time. The other one was easier because it was such just caustic, it was just so vitriolic and irrational. They spin from, you know, that addiction, which is really easy to,

do. It's called eliminationist rhetoric. And what they do is, you know, they, they, they, they put into the bloodstream of the public the worst possible accusation that you can make about someone, which is that they're a pedophile. And that's the original thing that Rudy Giuliani and Bernie Care did. They went and stood on the courthouse steps in Newcastle County in Delaware, and they held a laptop, which was not my laptop, and talked about inappropriate images of children. And, and, and talked about inappropriate images of children. And what that does is, is that if 5% of the people can believe that, then 50% of the people can believe that you're capable of bribery or influence peddling or anything else. One of the things that I point out to everybody is that I don't know anybody in public life

that has been more exposed, had their digital life more exposed than me, 22 years of my entire digital footprint. And I'm not talking about a laptop. This is why I always say the laptop is bullshit. What I'm talking about is 22 years of everything, everything that was deleted, everything that was still existed in a cloud somewhere. So every deleted photo,

every actual photo that was still in the cloud, they had all my voicemails going back a decade, my voicemails from different devices over the period of that time. They had every text message, every single deleted or otherwise, they had every single email. And you know what was not in that, all of that.

That's why I always say, show me yours, is this, not a single instance of a single communication from me to anyone that worked for my dad or my dad saying, hey, I need you to do this on behalf of someone that I'm getting paid by. Not one. Not one. So the thing that is most attached to my name as a symbol of criminality, is actually the thing that is the most exculpatory to me. But anyway, back to what we're saying in terms of level of recovery and why now.

For me, I don't have any fear anymore. And I have a message for people that are still out there sick and suffering. If you think that you are alone in your misery, and can't climb out of the well of addiction that you fell into. I'm here to tell you, you can make it. No matter what the consequences that are coming down the pike for you, I promise you, you can make it. I mean, if you could survive that.

Yeah. I mean, whatever somebody is going through, there's always hope. Yeah. And look. But it is a, you know, relapse is also a large, you know, part of your story. And I want to talk about, you know, right thinking. around relapse. It's all about willingness. Sobriety isn't for the people that need it. It's for the people that want it. And you can't impose willingness on another human being. And so the hopefulness

and the possibility of achieving sobriety is very much a function of your internal drive. And that has to be arrived upon organically, right? Like you had to be beaten down like nobody's business. to arrive at a place where you were broken enough to try to do this a different way. And everybody has their own version of that, right? You can't just tell somebody, hey, it's time. Like, they have to decide that it's time. Yeah, that's exactly right. You know, one of the other things that I say all the time.

And I steal all this shit, by the way. None of it's original to me. Any of these, like, great lines that I have are 100% stolen from people that are much wiser than me that I listen to in the rooms. a long time ago. And one of them is that I use all the time is getting sober is easy. All you got to do is change everything. Yeah. I've heard that one many times. And to me, there's a real truth to that. And I got really, really lucky. And I view it as a miracle, but I've witnessed others that in recovery that have received this miracle. Is the angel of

of Melissa in my life, my wife now. It's really, really hard. And the thing that I'm most impressed, the people I'm most impressed by in this world are the people that, that do it alone, that don't have the support system that I did. But when I met Melissa, she just intuitively knew things that I hadn't done before.

I mean, she took every, She took my phone. She erased every single number in it. She, you know, she moved us to a house that was secluded in the hills. And, you know, she took my car key. She had to act as my jailer for a period of time. But it was also a complete shift in I didn't have to return immediately to the chaos or what some people would call the comfort of all the people that,

desperately were trying to get me clean and sober. And in that separation from that, I found something that I had never accessed before in the early days or at any period in recovery, which was my practice of art, which I had done my whole life, but I never had done it to the degree that I, seven years ago,

became a way of life for me. And so those two things, and I always say to people, like, I found my purpose, not with a big P. You know what I mean? Like, I think that's kind of, like, it's kind of bullshit. And it's not bullshit, but it sets people up for failure, this idea that, you know, like, yeah, why, you know, I work at McDonald's and I need to get clean and sober,

and you're telling me to find my purpose, you know, when I'm working two shifts and I'm driving an Uber, I'm like, yeah, I mean, I think these words do more harm than good often, you know, because they make people feel bad because they don't know what their purpose is or like what, you know, like, you need to find meaning. And that's why I was saying. It's like it's well intended, but like, you know, if you're someone like myself who's walking around insecure and feeling like a fraud and all that, like it's just, you know, like, you're like,

what do you, you go find out. You know, like, oh, well, good luck with that, you know. Find your bliss. Right. You know what I mean? Like, and I'm like, Jesus Christ, I'm just trying to get out of bed. but for me what I mean by it with the small pea purpose is that I literally found something to do with my hands. You know, one of the things about crack addiction that I always say to people is that there's a ritual piece of it.

And the habit of the pipe. And I mean, I can do all of the hand motions still and it's, and seven years removed. And I'll be able to do them for the rest of my life. And there's this thing about ignition and things and all of these things that are, our brain-body connections that I realized that when I was painting, and it doesn't have to be painting, it doesn't have to, it could be running. It could be, all I'm saying is that I know for me, I don't have a prescription for anything else, but what helped me was giving me something to do hours at a time in my free time

that took me out of my head, occupied my body in my hand, in particular in an exercise that at the end of I felt like I had done something. And I've watched people do it with athletic things. I've watched people do it with gardening. I've watched people do it with, but I just felt like, and I still feel to this day. If there's any prescription that I have, I find that to be a really, really important part, at least of my recovery. Mr. Andrew Yang, would you say that your relationship with your phone is intentional or reactive?

Mostly reactive, unfortunately. You could even say abusive, where it just sends me pings and notifications and vibrations, and I just run to it and respond saying, what is it? What's the matter? Well, I got good news for you, Andrew, because there is a cellular company that's going to help you with that very problem. and it's actually going to pay you to use your phone less. Well, I do like money.

What's it called? It's called Noble Mobile. Have you heard of it? I have in a dream. It came. If you want to learn about Noble Mobile, the company founded by the great Andrew Yang, sitting next to me right now, you can do that and you can sign up and you can change your relationship with your phone entirely.

Here's what you're going to do. You're going to go to NobleMobile.com and you can try it for just $10. for your first month when you use the very special VIP behind the velvet rope code. Rich roll. Make your relationship with your phone less abusive, more deliberate, a little more distant. And we'll all be happier. This episode is brought to you by Airbnb. As summer winds down, crowds thin out, and the events arrive, the marathons, the festivals, the games, and suddenly hundreds of thousands of people are descending on a city for a weekend. I've been on the traveler side of that equation plenty, landing in a city that's completely full,

scrolling Airbnb, and finding somebody's actual apartment, real kitchen, local neighborhood. Every time I think about the person who lives there, off on their own trip, their home earning its keep while they're gone. Because that's the flip side almost nobody thinks about. When the big event comes to your town, that's your moment. Accommodations fill up fast and your place with your comfortable chair and your good coffee setup in your actual functioning kitchen could be precisely what they're hoping to find. You give somebody the comfort of a real home and you make real extra money,

money to put towards your own travels or that renovation you've been circling. Your home doesn't have to just sit there while the biggest weekend of the year happens outside it. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at Airbnb.com slash host. For people that don't have direct experience with addiction, it's important to understand the degree of self-obsession that takes place in the addict's mind. And the incessant looping of self-defeating narratives, like you're just lost in your head. And it feels impossible to interrupt that or to arrest that in any way. And for you, like what I see is somebody who found art as a way to.

quiet that, like, oh, I can just disabuse myself of my self-obsession for a moment because I'm present with this thing that I'm creating. And that becomes like a wedge where you're like, oh, it is possible to not just be thinking about myself all the time. And then to have something three-dimensional or two-dimensional that you were like, oh, I did this. Oh, by the way. Everything you created at first was genius. Yeah. I mean, who cares whether it's bad or good? The point is that you're making yourself, like, at least nominally useful, and you're getting outside of your head, you know what I mean? And ultimately, that can, with greater work, become an act of service. I mean, service is the antidote to the self-obsessive mind of the addict,

and that's what you're doing and showing up in all these public forums. But you have to find something. Like, for me, it was running. But I think where it gets confusing for people is, They start to conflate, like, whether it's the art or something athletic, they start to think that that's the solution to the addiction. Like, this is just, like, one spoke in a wheel, and it doesn't come at the cost of actually, like, working the program and, you know, like, learning a new way of life to your point. Like, you have to change everything. And first and foremost, you have to put your sobriety first, and you have to, like, work these steps and, like, do all the fucking bullshit that they tell you to do that sounds stupid. and you have to believe in all of these aphorisms that feel like your grandmother came up with.

And that's part of it. And then you get to like sit down and draw something or paint a picture and get out of your own head for a minute. One of the things that kept me trapped in my addiction in the cycle of relapse that I was in was that I wasn't being honest with the people around me. And in doing so, I wasn't being honest with myself. And I had all these secrets, you know,

that all had to do with my failure to stay clean and sober for, you know, it was like a 10-year Odyssey, nine-year Odyssey, and the shame of that. You know, not just the shame of the rooms that you find yourself in, but the shame of failure of not being able to, of not being able to find a way through with the word. And the specter of a father who is literally, yeah, but even with that, I think everybody can associate with this. It's just the shame of your, my, my kids, you know, my three older girls who were in their teens at the time that I went through the really harshest part after my brother's death of, uh, uh, my addiction is that I had, I was ever present in their lives. Most of their lives, I was, they didn't know me to have a problem.

They knew that I was in recovery, but I was never absent. And when they lost their uncle, who was like a second father to them, because we were that close, I wasn't there. You know, I became lost in my own addiction. And so what I always say is that, again, I steal all these things, is that addiction is never an excuse. but at least it's an explanation. And it's an explanation that I before could never admit the things that I had done that I should have felt guilty for to myself or otherwise, because it just filled me with shame

and appropriately. And I realized that guilt isn't appropriate. meaning that you should feel bad and seek amends for the things that you've done wrong to other people or to yourself. But shame is something that's telling you that you're not worthy of their love ever. And you get trapped in that cycle. Guilt is feeling bad about something you did. Shame is basically the idea that you're a bad person,

not somebody who did a bad thing. Exactly. And guilt and shame, unless you reckon with them and make peace with your past, is inevitably just leading you back to using. Every single relapse that I had between 2010 and 2019, and there were dozens, dozens of attempts.

You wrote kind of an incredible piece on your substack about relapse, and I wanted to, I wanted to read a little bit of it. I won't read the whole thing, but I want to read a part of it. It's titled The Addiction of Nations, and you can find it on Hunter's Substack. Relapse does not begin with a drink or a pill.

It begins with a thought. The thought arrives quietly. It does not announce itself as danger. If it did, the person would recognize it immediately and shut it down. Instead, it appears in a form so ordinary that it passes unnoticed at first, The way a small seed disappears into soil before anyone thinks to mark where it landed. The moment usually occurs during something unremarkable. Driving home from work.

Sitting alone at a kitchen table after the house has gone quiet. Walking past a place that used to mean something else. The mind drifts and somewhere inside the drift a sentence begins to assemble itself. Not a declaration. More like a suggestion. Maybe things are different now. The sentence is so small that it hardly feels like a decision. It feels like curiosity.

The mind turns it over once, then sets it down again. A person who has lived through addiction knows this moment well enough to distrust it, but distrust alone is rarely enough to erase it. The thought remains. And once it remains, it begins to grow. Not all at once, slowly the way a root system spreads beneath the ground where no one can see it. The mind begins constructing explanations around the idea. The explanations feel reasonable because they borrow the language of responsibility and self-control.

You have learned something. You understand the consequences now. You are not the person you were then. The thought becomes a narrative. The narrative becomes a permission structure. And by the time the person recognizes what has happened, the small seed that appeared earlier in the day has grown into something much larger. an oak tree in the middle of the mind.

At that point, the relapse is already underway. The substance comes later. I mean, that's so beautiful. It's a very eloquent and poetic way of saying, you know, the relapse train pulls out of the station well before the drink. And it is this seed of a thought that at its inception, you know is crazy and insane,

but if you don't find a way to deal with, it, it will linger and it is a seed that you will unconsciously fertilize to the point where it's important, like by the time you pick up the drink or the drug, like there's no thought involved. Like it's a done deal. And sometimes it's a conscious decision and sometimes it's that unconscious thing where, you know, you hear these stories all the time. Like, oh, I just, I was in this situation and then it just occurred to me to like order the drink and then I was drinking and I don't even know how it happened. Well, it happened because of all the things that you just, you know, kind of beautifully elaborated on. The only thing, at least I, this is my

talk about the work. The only thing that I allow myself to live in fear of is my own mind. It is like just you reading that back to me gave me chills because every addict knows exactly Exactly, but it's like. Yeah, I mean, that was like reading my mind. Yeah. And the hardest, hardest thing, at least for me, one of the hardest things in recovery is in any way trying to articulate to those who have not experienced the why of it. Like how? How?

Like all the work that you put in, all of the healing that had been done, all of the consequences that you know that you're going to face. there's a scene in that movie that kind of got panned with Denzel Washington, you know, where he's the flight. Yeah, a friend of mine wrote that movie. Yeah. So that scene, and you'll know the one I'm talking about. It's the most accurate description of alcoholism on screen that I've ever seen. Ever seen.

And it's him in the hotel room. He knows that he has the biggest day in his life, that if he just makes it through this, he's back in the captain's chair. and that everybody on screen that has not experienced addiction looked at what he did and thought that that was a Hollywood, you know, bullshit. Like, of course, he wouldn't go into the mini bar and drink the mini bar. I mean, you just, you know exactly what's going to happen. It was going to happen.

So it is. And today's different, but I really lived like this. today. Like, I did not wake up today and there was not even a seed. And there's also, I don't know with you, about you, I know for me, this delicate dance of not giving these experiences and this knowledge too much weight that it paralyzes you. in your life, while at the same time being constantly aware of that in your life. You know, here's another really selfish reason why I'm doing what I'm doing right now. You know, I say because it's in service to other people that are still out there sick

and suffering, the real honest answer is, is first and foremost, it's in service to myself. is the person that I'm helping the most by speaking about my experience is me. Yeah. The, you know, service being this cornerstone of recovery, like you're not going to be able to maintain long-term sobriety if you're not, you know, of service to those that are still suffering. And that comes across as some kind of sacrifice or martyrdom. but the truth is, is there's a selfish motive to this.

It's actually like selfish service because in sponsoring somebody else or showing up for somebody else, this is more healing to you than it is to the other person. And it's a necessary aspect of disabusing yourself, of the obsession of the mind and investing yourself in the well-being of somebody else that is essential to maintaining sobriety. So it is a selfish act to be selfless in your service. and if service feels like annoying or inconvenient or whatever, couching it in those selfish terms makes it easier to pick up the phone and call that person who's having a hard time when you're sitting and spinning and lost in thought and like just kind of rehashing what happened yesterday

or, you know, like terrified about what's going to happen tomorrow. Yeah. You know, as much as I was exposed, you know, there's those moments. my addiction in which I, you know, that I still experience as, you know, as like real, you know, traumas. And left to my own devices and in my own head, you know, they become that seed. And so, again, like... The big thing, though.

I wish I could say. Like, I'm on my way to sainthood. I'm not even fucking close on my way to save him. No, you're a fucking degenerate. Yeah, I am. It's exactly right. Welcome to the club. Yeah.

At the core of all of this is resentment. Resentment is always going to lead you back to relapse. Resentment is an indulgence that the addict or the alcoholic cannot afford. And I don't know if there's anyone on planet Earth who is, is more entitled to resent certain people than you. Like, so many people directly vilified you, you know, it's absurd to call it the town square. I mean, like, globally, right?

So I'm interested in how you were able to relinquish what I'm sure were deep-seated resentments against these people who were attacking you for things that were not evidence-based unfairly or whatever in your mind. Okay, everybody's going to get mad of me. But again,

why do you think I went on Tucker Carlson? It was one of my deepest resentments. So that you could overcome your resentment towards him. Yeah. You know, I know Tucker for 30 years, and I didn't know him well. We weren't close friends in any way. You know him from the program? No, I didn't know from the program, but he lived in the same neighborhood in Spring Valley where I was, and we had a lot of mutual friends

going back to the time when my high school girlfriend went to high school with him. I mean, I've known Tucker and his wife and my wife at the time had became running buddies and friends. And so we were never friends, but we knew each other and we were acquaintances. Which makes all the vilification on his part all the more painful.

Yeah. Because you had a, you already had a relationship. Because he knew the shit that he was saying wasn't true. And what can I do? In service, I think part of services is that you need to do things in service of yourself, even if they're hard. And resentments are the hardest. And like you said, I have resentments towards, you know, Miranda Devine at the New York Post,

and I have resentments towards, and what I have, I've decided is that I just have to just go head on. And, you know, when Tucker asked if I wanted to talk to him, I said, yeah, I do. Because number one, it gave me a lot of anxiety. And I've decided to do everything that I was scared of doing. I used to be scared to sit down. You put a microphone at me. And it, you know, it was hard for me to formulate my thoughts and fastest I wanted to.

or to sound as good as I thought that I needed to sound or to not stammer a little bit and, you know, take out all the ends and butts and ums. And, you know, I don't even think about that anymore. And part of the reason is, is because I keep in the back of my mind, rich has seen the worst of me. And I don't have to pretend to be anything other than the person that I am sitting in front of him right now,

or make excuses, or defend myself in any way, I just need to be me. And you don't need anything from that other person. Like if you were to take everything Tucker said about you negatively and clipped it together into like, it would probably be hours of, you know, just... Yeah.

Something very difficult to sit through. and then you're sitting across from him. And he's, he's like pretty cheery about, it's not like he's like, oh, my God, you know, I can't believe I saw, you know, there's none of that, right? But I also didn't get the sense that you needed that from him. No, I did. You were just like, I'm here to, like, overcome my own resentment.

Yeah. Yeah. And it has nothing to do with how he responds to me. It's all about my relationship to this dynamic. It's the reverse of what we learned about forgiveness. is that we as addicts have to seek amends, and we have to seek forgiveness, but not the result of it.

The act of actually going and saying, you're sorry with sincerity, is not about whether or not that person forgives you. It's about the fact that you do it. Again, it's incredibly selfish. And the same thing with resentment is, it's my thing. It's not theirs.

It's for me to lay down. And because I could live the rest of my life just filled with hate over what they did to me and how they did. You know how I think about it now? They gave me the most incredible, beautiful gift that I've ever been given in my entire life,

which was complete in total liberty, complete freedom from all of my secrets, complete freedom from all of the shame, they gave me this incredible chance at a life in which I could simply be who I am. Everything. And every day trying to do the next right thing and failing so often.

Like, I guarantee you I'm going to do enough things in this podcast alone to piss off 30% of the people that'll be on here calling me a pedophile and this and that the other thing. They make decisions and do things that are, you know, but it doesn't even remotely affect me. Now, I'm open to criticism. You know what I mean?

I'm open if I'm going to be public and I'm going to be talking, then, you know, I should be responsible for the things that I say and hopefully not be misleading or doing something in a way that is hurtful or harmful to somebody else. but you know

again like I wish I could say that you know that this practice that I had came to me through this an enormous amount of like hard work and I moved to Rishi Cash and I lived with the monk for seven years and I you know and I practiced but most of it was just pure survival

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And now I've been on a birch mattress for about, I think about five years at this point. And I think the thing I noticed the most this time of year is that I just sleep cooler. It breathes. And that comes straight from what it's built out of. Organic cotton, natural latex, real materials responsibly sourced, firm, yes, but also comfortable and more importantly, built to last. No polyurethane foams, no questionable off-gassing, which matters when you think about how much of your life you actually spend on the darn thing. And they make it easy to find out for yourself. It ships free, rolled up in a box, simple to set up. You get 120 nights to see how your body responds, all risk-free.

And they back every single mattress with a limited lifetime warranty. Because they own their own manufacturing and stand behind the work, they can do that. Sleep is the foundation everything else is built on, and it's really worth getting it right. I want all my listeners to enjoy a deep, restful night's sleep with a new mattress from Birch. Go to birchliving.com slash richroll for 27% off sitewide. That's birchliving.com slash rich roll and get 27% off sitewide. I completely understand this notion of your ego death being a gift. I imagine that's difficult for the average person who hasn't kind of flirted in this world

to really get their heads around. So I think it would be good if you could talk a little bit more in explaining that. I mean, obviously, it's our, it's healing our broken parts that make us, you know, able to be a healing energy for other people. And it's a level of humility because you've been beaten down so deliberately for so long that allows you to be with other people who are undergoing challenges or who disagree with you and to kind of navigate those social environments with a degree of. grace, but how do you, like, further define that? Yeah, that's a great question, and I'm not sure I have the answer, but I do know this, is that my ego death was much easier on me than it was for the people that love me. For the people that love me, for Melissa, for my children, for my dad, my friends, people

that really knew me, is that they have a righteous anger about it, you know, And it's very, it's very trite for me to say, you know, or maybe it's not trait. But it's for me on my lofty perch to say, like, I forgive. Let's move on. It was a gift to me. Well, it wasn't a gift from my wife who had people show at our door when she was seven months pregnant with red hats on and chase her down Mulholland Drive and drive her off the road. You know, it wasn't a gift for her when.

You know, they surrounded when we moved to Venice to get away from that, when they literally sat out in the canal with bullhorns and chanted anti-Semitic stuff. Because she's Jewish. And so there was a lot of violence in their speech and real actual threats of violence that happened. So I, again, and like, you know, I get to be this paragon of like, of recovery and like, oh, it was a gift to me and all my secrets are exposed. Well, what about all the people that were in those pictures that didn't ask for any of this? That had to, you know, have to answer questions to, you know, their family and their friends and their lives. You know, the innocent bystanders.

And what about my mom? What about my sister? you know, what about my, you know, my aunts and uncles and their righteous anger that the person that they know was this was happening to? And I have to admit, I feel guilty about that sometimes. I feel guilty that sometimes I'm not aware enough of the damage that was done to them. Just think about it from this perspective. My three older daughters, who are all professionals and adults in their lives now, you know, how hard it is.

Who's your dad? Right. Well, seven months ago when you answered that question, what do you do? Because I know that they love me more than anything in the world. But think of how it feels, you know, for them. To think that everywhere that they have to go, they have to be in some kind of a defensive mode, that they're either going to fight on my behalf or they're going to fight on my behalf or they're going to flee, that every relationship, every new job, every new person that they meet at their university

or thing is going to be, the first thing is going to be, you know. Yeah, they can never outrun that. Never outrun it. I get to be here and talk to Rich Roll. And I get to have this like incredible conversation about growth and spirituality. And what I've discovered in the worst moment of my life was the greatest gift. And isn't that a beautiful thing? What about them? They're watching this podcast with, you know, a lot of fuck you energy. Yeah, not towards me anymore. And, and, and, but I, but, but, but, but 100%, um, I, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, is, is directed at the people that did this.

And, um, because there are people that did this. Let's also remember, I take full responsibility for my addiction. I take full responsibility for the fact that I put a lot of it on camera. I take full responsibility for a whole lot of, um, um, um, I take full responsibility for a whole lot of that stuff. But what I don't take responsibility is for the complete and total invasion of my privacy and the corruption of the narrative of what it actually said. And so there, you know, and so do I have a target in that in terms of who? Yeah. I mean, for me, because I know for certain that it is all the product of the depravity of Donald Trump himself. But again, to your original

question about this is, you know, around resentment is, yeah, I've gotten to a great place. Like, wow, me, I'm, you know what I mean? And I really have. I've gotten a great place where I'm, I can write that about relapse. But about the people that I love. There's a lot of casualties out there. I like the people that you care about. Yeah. And for you, you know, overcoming your, your resentments is life or death. But normal people are, you know, more than welcome to, you know, nourish their resentments without, you know, cataclysmic life consequences as a result of that. And so that's that's the gift of the program and the tools. And not everybody, you know, has those tools as much as I think, like, everybody would be a better person if they went through the steps. most people don't have to.

And so they have to live with certain difficult emotions without the capacity to process them in the way that you have. But I would imagine like, listen, you haven't transcended the mortal coil. Like there's got to be shit that you grind on still. Oh, of course. One of the things I grind on is Donald Trump, you know. And I'd say without any apology whatsoever. unapologetically is that there are people that are deserving of my derision,

but I think of all of our derision. I think that there are people that are, you know, there is a sickness that has descended upon the land to be, to steal another piece of prose. and and and and it's real. My estimation it's real. It's not derangement syndrome. It's not anything.

There's this, there's this license to cruelty that exists. Encouragement and permissiveness. Yeah. I had a really fascinating conversation with an undocumented person yesterday that has been here for 38 years. It came when they were two years old. and they went through the whole process, you know, Abduca and everything, excuse me, 28 years, and then it ended when they were right at the end of it and Trump

came in. And they had three family members that they can't find now that have been put into detention. And the point that I made to them is their question was why this doesn't make any sense. None of them are criminals. They've all been here for decades. Yes, they came here on no account of their own, quote unquote, criminality of crossing the border. And they paid taxes, you know, from the moment they got jobs when they were 15, 16 years old, is why are they targeting them?

And the answer is this, cruelty. Cruelty is the point with them. It's the first time, and I think since, you know, at least that behavior has been modeled by a president since Andrew Johnson and after the assassination of Abraham Lincoln is cruelty is the point. And by the way, that was my whole story as it relates to that of this exposure, of this humiliation, of this dehumanizing. That was the whole point. It was never about me. They thought that they were going to, if they could kill me in whatever sense of the word,

literal or figuratively, they would end my dad. And they were the, he was the person that they feared the most just by polling in terms of that. And they were right. They did miscalculate, though, in that Trump thought he could

go after you for being this addict and I think he misunderstood how that was going to be. be received. I think that that really did not go well from him because everybody has a relationship with somebody who is suffering in this regard. And, you know, best case scenario that fell flat. And I think it, in many ways, it worked against him. And I see now, you know, there is a tide that's shifting. Like, I am hopeful, you know, when all of these sort of hardcore MAGA people are breaking ranks,

like it's fracturing. Yeah. And I think people, are waking up to the realization that this is not the way. And, you know, I, I am also very inspired by Gen Z. I think Gen Z is the kindest generation that, uh, that I've had the good fortune of, you know, being connected with. And I think that they are carrying a certain hopefulness as well, uh, that has no time for, you know, what we're seeing at the, kind of highest levels at the moment. Well, they just have no time for the bullshit. They can, to them, at least in my experience,

like when I went out with Andrew Callahan on, he does this, he did this tour, which was awesome. It was Channel 5 Carnival. And part of the Channel 5 Carnival for a 56-year-old guy and people that know me, like, watched like clips of it. And they were like, what were you doing? Well, part of the carnival was that he has a, you know, it's an audience of about 2,000 people in these stadiums,

and he invited me to go out with him and the last three of them. It was one of the best things that I've ever done for myself. It's mainly, you know, like I say, draft age, 18 to like 35-year-old. And all the people that, people sitting behind microphones in, you know, wherever call, like, you know, the lazy in their basements, It's terminally online, you know, out of touch, Gen Z, whatever. And what I found was a incredible community. I found people that didn't have any, it wasn't about partisanship.

It wasn't about, you know, Republicans or Democrats, but they cared. They cared deeply. But more than anything, they cared deeply for each other. And the evidence of that was this. They did a talent show. And these people would come up. and do these silly tricks. But people that you would look at

and that you knew that in any other setting were kind of scared of their shadow. At least that's what you would have thought about them. And they do these silly, funny, sometimes serious things. And the whole energy of that community was love. Like no matter what it is or how silly it was, you got cheered and high-fived and everybody.

And it was, it was one of the coolest eye-opening things that I've ever, you know, I went with these guys that, you know, Dead City, punk man. There's like legendary punk man. They did all those.

I mean, they're true anarchists. Each one of them is a, like, I love them. They're my buddies. You know why? Because they're all in recovery, and they talk about it openly. And, you know, now do they, you know,

do they literally like, you know, I mean, they are true anarchists. Like I say Dead City for Life, like these guys, but they're part of this community. They're part, and they're incredibly well read and they understand what's going on. And it's the opposite reaction of the people that listen to Nick Fentis is that instead of disconnecting, instead of thinking everything's a joke, they know that it's not. they understand all the jokes but they know that they have a voice and

I don't know if you feel like this is all the things I learned in recovery like you know what what we haven't dealt with yet was the trauma of COVID I mean over a million people died people that like

the like and we act as if this entire generation that didn't get to go to the graduations or weddings or you know their or grandma mother dying or, you know, but particularly the ones that missed like the three years of, you know, interaction with their friends when, you know, when the most important time in

your life to have that. Yeah, an entire generation deprived of experiences we take for granted. And we dismiss the impact of that period of time on literally millions of young people. And then you know what we did to them? We allowed for these tech oligarchs and their social media platforms to literally prey on them to make them at best, unhealthy, at worst, dead. It's sick. It's sick. And so I don't even remember the question. I don't either.

But I think to your point, you were talking about this kind of celebration of cruelty. Yeah. I think that's working in lockstep with this celebration of these tech oligarchs. Like these guys are like rock stars, you know. They go on friendly platforms and spin their yarns and everybody kind of like, you know, bows at the altar of these people as if there's some kind of demigods. I mean, they are like, you know,

this is our pantheon in our secular world right now. And, you know, like these people don't have our best interest at heart. Like, you know, they're all about just accumulating power and wealth. And we're, meanwhile, like, worshiping them for that as we see this moral decay around us like it is the odyssey like did you see the odys? I did, of course. I had Ryan Holiday on and we were talking about the fact that like this is, this is like a movie about the 12 steps. Like he is going through the ringer and, you know, he has to get to this point of surrender to make it home. It's like, you know, he's, I mean,

it's just like the parallels are like all over the place, but obviously also a parable of like what's happening right now. And, you know, he's. in modern society, where we don't have a unifying, like, anchor to bring us together. What we celebrate is self-interest. And, you know, when cruelty is something that, you know, we're seeing at the top of the pyramid, it's giving everyone else this permission or this encouragement to act accordingly. And, you know, Elon Musk said it in. like you know empathy is weakness we need to purge our society of empathy and like this is just anathema of recovery i mean they are cartoon village like what is going to heal us and when i see

you go on all these podcasts and sit with all these like controversial people and all of that like you are practicing empathy sometimes with people who are deeply unempathetic simply for the purpose of modeling it because all of the callousness and the cruelty is really a function of fear Like you said it earlier, like all of the craven bad behavior is about fear. And, you know, like you can say, well, I'm mad at this. Whatever the reason is, you just keep peeling the layers of the onion. And ultimately, it always comes down to fear. Like, that is the emotion that animates all of this at the same time.

So these are people who are masquerading as, you know, alpha strong men. But they are the most like fearful people. people in society. Yeah, they're broken and they're inflicting their unheeled trauma on the rest of us and costuming it as, as, you know, masculinity or something like that. And each one of them, you know, and I don't know any of them personally. But I watch, I've had a little experience with Elon because he really, really attacked me during the time because of Twitter. And that gave a whole new life and energy to the whole Hunter Biden question of suppression of, you know, blah, blah, blah. And I was really angry.

And what the fuck? And he's a really broken person. He has had 100% incredible amount of trauma in his life. And I don't say this to be revealing of anything that's not already out there. His father is a really, really awful human being. and people can go look for themselves, but I think it very unlikely that his father did not treat him like the way that he treated every other child in his life, his father.

And you can see it. All of these, you know, that's why I love Ryan Holiday, is that, you know, I have his book, The Daily Stoic, and I use it. And I'm a huge believer in the, And the lessons that we can learn, not only from Orillus, but from all of those myths and, you know, the hero's journey. And in those incredible pieces of wisdom that exist out there, whether it's Aldous Huxley or whether it's Young or whether it's, you know, the Bhagatah Gita,

you know what's always the same is those characters. the evil, they're the archetype that of the broken person, the sociopath, the psycho, whatever label that you want to put on them, the malignant narcissist, the each one of the carrier, the agamemnon's and and and they repeat themselves and that's why I say nothing is new under the sun. We are all on our, on a personal level, on our own hero's journey, but we are collectively, you know, now we may live in what I think at a moment of, which is an inflection point. And we may be living through the most significant step in our evolution because of AI. And I know that you've had some people on here that know way more about it

than me. But I think that at a moment in time, in which compassion, understanding, and empathy will be the central question of whether we make it through or not. Is that, like, maybe I'm just a drop in the bucket. But, you know, what other choice do we have? Yeah. I don't know. But, like, they are, did you ever see, what's his name, Sam Haltman? given the interview about, I think it was two or three years ago.

He said, what, he was asked, what piece of fiction? Do you, you know, what in fiction, science fiction, most represents what you think the world could look like with the introduction of AGI and superintelligence? And he said, without hesitation, he said Pantheon. Have you seen Pantheon? I haven't. It's cartoon, but the voices are like William Huron.

they're like serious actors and it's a series that's on i think it's still on netflix go watch it the theme being the theme being that we're all screwed i thought you were going to say like terminator no no but this is worse this is worse and yet we barrel forward and yet we barrel forward this is the tragedy of the the human species like we are nothing if not builders who are insistent on just continuing to move forward and innovate irrespective of the downstream consequences. Like, we'll deal with that when it happens. And history, you know, is pretty clear that, like, there's always unforeseen consequences and the fact that the people that are innovating, doing the innovating, already have that insight,

and it has no impact on, you know, how they're on the pace of this advancement is deeply disconcerning. You know, that's why I always go back. to, again, I don't know, it's apocryphal. She really actually said it, but Mother Teresa's line. And if you want to change the world, go home and love your family. And I think that your family doesn't have to just mean your blood relatives, but that family that is the community that you're part of. And I get to lay claim to a family that is 50 million wide and strong,

as do you, of people that I know that we have experienced, that we share one thing, the experience in pain of addiction and the trauma of itself. And it's to varying different degrees, but I know there's a half a dozen rooms within Stones Throw of me right here, where I can, if I need to, go sit and be witness to their pain and not feel alone. and there's an amazing, amazing selfish thing about that.

Again, like the single thing, one part of wisdom, which I've learned from you. I literally, I mean, I've learned from listening to you. Like, I'm sitting here talking as if I know anything in the fact of the matter is just that you've done more in service to this than anyone else out there talking about it. And I've learned more from you than I think that I could ever impart if I have another 50 years.

And that is that we are not alone. And that all of the things that I just said are things that, you know, you've spent, you know, an entire career trying to, you know, educate people about. At the same time, like, everything that I've shared is not, these are not my original thoughts either. These are all things that I've learned through experience and in the rooms that I'm just parroting. cool part of us about it is if you if you aren't familiar with addiction to everybody outside they sound really fucking smart which is really my this is my secret agenda yeah i just want everyone meanwhile you learned it from a toothless guy that was sitting in the corner of a meeting who

you know is the old time who's been there 16 years and you know he doesn't have a job and hadn't taken a shower in two weeks yeah and he is like you go oh my this is a is the wisest person I've ever met in my life. It is. Because these prophets walk among us. Yeah. I want to talk about the trauma piece a little bit. You mentioned Gabor Matae earlier.

Yeah. It must have been, it was probably like eight or nine years ago. Yeah. When I read in the realm of The Hungry Ghosts and I was like, I got to meet this guy. And I flew to Vancouver to do a podcast with him. And he did exactly what I wanted him to do, which is flip the table on me. and then dissect my story. And it was a real epiphany for me because I grew up,

you know, like I had a, like there's nothing I could point to in my child. Like I didn't have a car accident where people, you know, like there were, my parents didn't abuse, like, they were always there. There's no reason for me to think like, I have anything to complain about. I had my insecurities and my feeling like I didn't belong in my own skin and all that stuff that you hear in the rooms

with addicts and alcoholics. but my alcoholism, be it a genetic disposition, it just is what it is. Like I had never delved beneath the surface of that because that really isn't part of what the program is about. And Gabour like really pulled the covers for me and I was resistant to what he had to say in that moment, but I couldn't stop thinking about it.

And so I've been on this journey of trying to unpack my past and make peace with certain things and reckon with it, it honestly, but it's nothing like what you've had to contend with. And this is outside of the 12-step paradigm, right? So where are you in your reckoning or you're healing with the things that happened in your early childhood that have repercussions in terms of your, you know, behavior in adulthood? It's still, it's still work in progress, but I'm working and earnestly.

And what does that look like? What does that look like for me? For me, it has a lot to do with writing. Is that I spend a lot of time because it's a way for me to be in thought without it being dangerous. You know, I find that when I just find myself kind of, you know, engaged in this delusional thinking, meaning like that I understand the future or am beholden to the past, you know, those kinds of thought. Like, oh, my God, like, what about this and what's going to happen then and things like that?

when I want to reflect on something, the way that I find I'm able to do it in a healthy way is the writing. And I would love to hear your take on it. But, you know, like I have that one traumatic event, but beyond that traumatic event, I was surrounded by love. I mean, surrounded by love. I have the best example of a father I can ever wish on anyone. If I am half the father, my dad has been to me, my sister, my brother, then I am,

I will have been a success in this world. And I really truly mean that. Is that he's incredible. And what was it? And I'm still unpacking it. You know, I think part of it, and this is even hard, is the accumulation of selfish decisions, even as a child that created shame in my life.

you know i have this one memory that sticks with me and i've never actually told anybody this exclusive and i don't want to overblow it but i literally think about it all the time i got a dog his name was mo it was a black lab it's all i wanted it was a puppy and uh and mo lived for 16 years is the greatest dog ever. And I was 16 when I got Mo. And I don't want to overblow this because it wasn't. I remember trying to train Mo my dog and getting so angry that I kicked the dog, like where she whimpered and hid for me for like a period of time. that has stuck with me, the shame. I don't know why I've even telling you this right now,

other than the fact, like, the things, and so I guess what I'm trying to say is that your traumas don't have to be things that were inflicted upon you. Trauma sometimes are things that you did yourself. Like, who is that? who is that person that was capable of kicking that dog? Like, I think about it all the time. And the way that I think about it is this,

can I really be a good person? Am I, or am I that person? The fact that it stays with you and that you think about it frequently basically says you're not pathological because somebody who is wouldn't reflect on that. And I think, you know, it's an example

of our pain is our pain. It can be a car accident where there's traumatic casualties or it can just be a slight that the person never thought of again and has lived with you for 40 years and influences your behaviors that turn into these looping patterns that send your life in a negative trajectory.

It is what it is. So it's not about the severity of the pain It's simply what you experienced. And I think that in your case, I think it's, and listen, I'm not a psychologist. I can, you know, please, like I'm the furthest thing from a clinician. But what I hear is somebody who went through, you know, had an incredibly traumatic ordeal that even the most put-together person would struggle with recovering from. And yes, you were surrounded with love and you grew up in privilege, etc.

And so that fuels your dismissal of recognizing this thing really was traumatic, even though you were cared for in the aftermath. And it's not just that isolated event. It's also, as I mentioned earlier, like the specter of growing up with such a prominent figure, your father, even if he is and was like the most beautiful and loving person possible. Like that would be a challenge for anyone, especially an anxiety-riddled young kid who had a who had a brother who seemed to be kind of the embodiment of charisma and potential and all these things, like the insecurity that, you know, I would imagine you were marinating it as a young person.

So there's that. And then not for nothing, like the trauma of having to go through the dismantlement, you know, that you suffered, you know, from 2019 to 24 or whenever it was, the new cycle where you were just pilloried like nobody ever has been. Like all of these things are difficult things for a well-grounded person to manage. and the fact that you're alive is remarkable in and of itself. But I think there's real healing that is still available to you by going, like what we learn in the rims. Like you don't avoid your pain, you go directly towards it. And I think there's more freedom on the other side of excavating whatever is there.

Yeah, well, that's my point, is that a lot of it, what I do is, you ask me how I'm, I'm if I'm engaged in that practice. And what I find is, is that I'm willing to like explore those things without getting lost in them. And that's why I brought up the example, which it may seem like, oh, you're so full of shit. That's the worst thing that, you know, but the,

because it's not. And I'm not saying that the trauma was to me. But what I do know is that, what still exists in me is a voice that says you're not worthy of this love, like this moment in time right now. Mm-hmm. Is it you've said to earn it. You got to write like a dope piece on substack or you got to crush some podcast or you have to, you know, paint something that, you know, everybody is going to, like, freak out about. Like that's the only way that you can feel love and accept it because love is transactional. Yeah. And I think that I'm growing beyond that. But I know I lived in that space for a long time. I know that I lived, for instance, is that I went to law school and I excelled and I went to Georgetown and then I transferred to Yale and I got out.

And I was scared to death of public speaking. So I knew that I didn't want to go into politics. but I was my brother and I literally were inseparable and I knew that he could have that but the real thing I wanted to be was an artist and I wanted to write and that wasn't part of the the Biden blueprint well I would imagine my dad would have been fine I really but you know who wasn't okay with that me because I didn't think that myself you know and by the way not because of anything other than this is because I was scared to death Because you know what it tastes to be an artist? It takes courage.

And I lacked it. So there's the fear, but it's that disavowal of self, you know, that creates the dissonance. Like you're living out of integrity with who you are. Yeah. With unhealed trauma, like shocker, you know. Yeah. Here comes the crack pipe. Yeah.

And it was answered to everything. This is the other thing I say to people is why? Because at first it was the answer to everything. And then you chase that answer. into your own prison cell. And, but man, okay, back to fun things. All right. The fun things is that, you know, despite all of that is,

is like the other part about living in this space that I'm living in right now, it's like, it is, it can be fun. It's like part of it is, is that, and I mean this sincerely, I get to meet Rich. Like, I get to come and talk to you. You know, I'm a super fan. And the idea that, that I get to sit here and have a discussion with somebody that I know cares as deeply as I do about some of these things. And that has been, that has given me the opportunity to learn from the people that he has on and listens from them, things that have, you know, really made a difference in my life.

It's like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's cool. I mean, this idea that, you know, sobriety is nothing but martyrdom and suffering and pain. Like, no, it's not that at all. It's actually liberation. And there's a lot of joy and tons of laughter.

And, you know, suddenly life, you get to experience life in the full spectrum, you know, in technical color, right? For better or for worse. And, you know, I'm sitting here going, I can't believe his fucking guy Hunter Biden is sitting in crazy. He actually came to the studio and he's doing this. Like, how is this my life? How did this happen? Yeah. I can't make sense of it other than to say, like, well, it's all because of recovery. You know, it all stems back to that.

Like, it is not logical or rational. It wasn't my plan to, like, be doing this. It's about every single day trying to bring my, you know, my thoughts and my words into greater integrity with my actions. And incrementally over, like, you know, fucking 30 years, it's like this is, you know, it's slow bright. somehow I've arrived at this point where, you know, I have like the best job in the world and I get to like invite cool people that I'm just curious about and hold them hostage and force them to talk to me and then share that with the world and and this is nourishing and beneficial to other people. Like it's a commercial enterprise, but fundamentally it's a

it's a it's a yeah. I mean, by the way, it's a certain it's in the spirit of service. Yeah. And I also get to like support my family doing it. So it's like a magic trick. So I'll give me the, it's, it's, what I'm getting at is, sorry to cut you off, is because it doesn't make sense, it allows me to appreciate the mystical and the spiritual in a way that, you know, has always been challenging for me. Because there is no explanation. Yeah. Yeah. And so I'm curious around like your, what is your relationship with spirituality look like well i'll give you that that that you know this idea of serendipity and the idea of the um uh when you're kind of like living in the flow uh that that's my idea of spirituality you know i was raised a catholic and um i have deep reverence for the faith

of my father and my grandmother and the way in which they um uh practiced their faith um at I stopped going to mass a long time ago. Because for me, my spirituality is rooted in, you know, the perennial philosophy. It rooted in the idea that we are all, not just figuratively, but literally connected. We are all one thing. All of the source of consciousness is, is, is, derived from a single source of which we will never be able to articulate or know. And, you know, I find it kind of funny that there's kind of a whole idea that we're all living in the matrix

and, you know, like this kind of, I think from these technologists that say that this is all a simulation, I mean, go back and read the Upanishads. And it's literally, it's the, it's more extreme than a simulation. It's more complicated. But they're acting as if they're, that their, their analysis is some, how novel. It's just using the language of the moment in which I believe in the idea that our actions have consequences, but they begin with how do we treat each other and, and, but more importantly, how we treat ourselves. And everything emanates from that. And, and, um, and, um, and, um, And so that's my spirituality.

I give you the serendipity. So I am working with an organization called Peak Path Health or Rehabit Center, but I'm working with them here in L.A. And to set up an aftercare foundation. And a foundation centered on the continuity of care. for people that can't afford it. Because I don't know about you. One of the realizations that I had is the enormity of the privilege that I had

is that while I had to go to nine, ten rehabs and go through, I don't know how many outpatient programs and sit through, you know, how much therapy. And I did ayahuasca and I did ibogaine and I did five-immio DMT. And I did all of these things because I had access in the capital. capacity and capability because I could. Well, 99% of the people that suffer from what we suffer from don't. And even if there are the capacity insurance or they go on scholarship like we offer,

they afterwards go back into the same exact environment. And there's like, you know, it's not called recidivism, but it's a, you know, 85%. The industry says like 75%, you know, relapse rate. I think it's more like 90%. And part of the reason is, is because the giant chasm, the gap in recovery, I think is in the continuity of care afterwards. You can go to a treatment center for 28 days,

but it spits you out the other side. And if you don't have some kind of support system and structure and accountability, like you're spinning in the wind. And so you know what? Now I get to try to build that. Yeah. And, you know, I think it's like the most amazing thing in the world. And it's something I, that I feel like I know a lot about. It's something like I know that I don't know everything about

and I get to go and find people to help me do it. And you have these connections and a thing. And again, it's like, you know, these selfish acts of service that are, you know, you realize that they, they just propagate more and more and more kind of wonder. of like what's next. And you know. As long as you stay disconnected from outcomes. Which is literally, exactly. What is, you know, like would you say

my spirituality? Like it's, you know, it's Krishna to Arjuna and Bhagaliki. That's what it is all about, you know. It doesn't have anything to do with anything other than you detaching from the outcome. Do your service, your service to yourself, your service to your family, your service to your community. Do your service well.

and detached from the outcome. And that is what it's about. Maybe we can land this plane with some thoughts for the person who is out there who's still suffering. Yeah. Again, I know my own experience is the thing that made it feel impossible to me was the idea that I was completely alone in my suffering. And not only you are you not alone, but you are surrounded by people that if you just have a moment of clarity and pick up a phone, reach out for help, call someone, is that the miracle of what I'm experienced, at least for today, is available to you. And it really is. secrets grow in the darkness shame can't survive the light and that's the other thing

I made it through people yeah and if this fucking guy yeah that's exactly right I promise you I always say to people is this is that here's one of the things that I'm grateful for I benefit more than anybody that I know in my lifetime at least from very low expectations if I show up to your dinner party and I'm not whacked out on crack. And, you know, I mean, they're like, oh my God, he was amazing. Actually, like, you know, yeah, he could like say words. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Hunter, this was amazing. What a treat. I appreciate you taking the time. And I really am a champion of this campaign you are on right now where you are broadening understanding around addiction and modeling. a new way of trying to communicate with people that we, you know, maybe are challenging our world views. And I think that's the way forward, not just politically, but as a culture, if we, you know, want to survive as a healthy society as a, you know, liberal democracy, we have to overcome

this acrimony. And I think the compassion and the understanding and the just the ability to sit with somebody and listen and take them seriously and engage with their ideas is is laudable and I commend you for that. I really really appreciate it. It means it means more to me than you can possibly imagine. Cool. Thank you. Well let's do this again man. Yeah, absolutely cool. I'm in the neighborhood. All right these.