The Rich Roll Podcast - I Forgot To Die: Khalil Rafati’s Journey From Homeless Junkie To Wellness Entrepreneur

Episode Date: January 4, 2016

Today my good friend Khalil Rafati returns to the podcast. Most would call Khalil a successful wellness entrepreneur. SunLife Organics, his growing chain of organic juice bar cafés, can be seen popping up all over Southern California with more on the horizon. But it wasn't that long ago that the only thing Khalil was successful at was getting high in the dark underbelly of the City of Angels. Addicted to shooting heroin and smoking crack, Khalil was soon overtaken by paranoia and psychosis and written off by friends and family. When he finally hit bottom, Khalil was 33 years old and 109 pounds, a convicted felon, high school dropout, and homeless junkie living in a cardboard box on the infamous Skid Row in downtown L.A. At the time, Khalil was hell bent on dying. But God, the Universe or whatever you want to call it had different plans. He didn't just live — he repaired his life wholesale. A miracle of sobriety. Miracle. So how does someone with nothing, who feels like they deserve nothing, and who just wants to end it all turn their life around? Khalil’s story is nothing short of astounding, trumped only by his ability to tell it. So if you missed his first appearance on the show, listen up here. Today he drops by the podcast studio to pick up where we left off — a tale recently canonized in his recently released memoir I Forgot To Die* — an incredible true story of pain, suffering, addiction and redemption and how one man ultimately conquered his demons and wrote himself a new life story. So let's hear all about it. I sincerely hope you enjoy this conversation with one of my favorite people. Peace + Plants, Rich

I'm a high school dropout. I'm a convicted felon. I can't spell. I can't type. I was homeless. I shot dope into my veins. Whatever it is that you're suffering from, you can change in such a profound way that within a short period of time, you won't even recognize yourself anymore. That's Khalil Rafati, and this is The Rich Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey, everybody. How you guys doing? My name is Rich Roll. I'm your host. This is my show. Welcome. Thanks for stopping by. I'm going to do things a little bit differently this time. You guys know the deal, right? Like, you know how I always introduce the show and then I do a live read. I talk a little bit about the guest. Well, I kind of feel like it's a little bit stilted, you know, sometimes I'm reading and I'm trying to get it all perfect and it just doesn't feel as real or as authentic

as it could. So I'm not going off any script. I'm just going off the cuff here. That's what we're going to do today. Let me know what you guys think. I've gotten some comments from you guys, some emails occasionally like, oh, the intros are too long or they're too boring or blah, blah, blah. So I'm going to mix it up. I don't know if this is going to work. Maybe this will be a disaster. They'll say, what happened to the show, Rich? It used to be so good. You've lost your, you've lost your edge. You don't know what you're doing anymore. Anyway, I'm just going to do it anyway. So you guys let me know what you think. Happy new year. Did you guys survive the holidays? If you're listening to this, I guess you did. Are you intact? Are you hung over right now? How do you feel?

I'm recording this on New Year's Day, so I've got New Year's on the brain. And all I can tell you is I'm super grateful because I went to bed early on New Year's Eve and I woke up early, sober, with clarity of thought, well-rested, enthusiastic, and encouraged to tackle the day and the new year. It just felt really, really good. And listen, you know, I got I got no beef with anybody who went out and let

loose and partied like crazy on New Year's Eve. I used to do that. I used to be loaded most of the time, like I completely get that. But it is kind of a weird, crazy thing when you think about this idea of being hung over on New Year's Day. I mean, we put so much time and intention and thought into our resolutions, our goals, and that's a whole other podcast that I could do, but there's a lot of energy that goes into, like, what do you want to achieve in 2016?

What do you want to do differently? And then the idea that you would wake up super hungover and lethargic on the very first day of that year doesn't exactly set the right tone for the year, does it? It's like kind of ironic and bizarre. So anyway, I'm just grateful that I woke up sober and that I'm feeling good right now. And, you know, in this sober journey that I'm on, many of you might say, well, I live a boring life. And you know what? I kind of do.

I like to go to bed early. I like to wake up early. I'm a creature of habit and routine. And certainly, when I got sober, I thought, well, the fun's over. Nothing's ever going to be fun anymore. I'm just going to live this super mundane, boring life. And the irony, of course, is that my life has just grown by leaps and bounds. It's just exploded. And it's so much more interesting and fun and adventuresome than

it ever was when I was drinking and using. Talk about a habit or a routine, a rut. I mean, nothing good ever happened when I was doing that. So my life is just so much better in countless unimaginable and magnificent and magical ways. And today's guest knows a lot about what I'm talking about. Today, my good friend Khalil Rafati rejoins the podcast. He was an early guest on the show back in, I think it was episode 61. the podcast. He was an early guest on the show back in, I think it was episode 61. If you didn't listen to that episode, it is one of the most popular podcasts I've ever put up. You're going to have to get my free app to listen to that because iTunes only holds the most recent 50, but check that out. It's a, it's an incredible conversation. Khalil is a wellness entrepreneur.

He's the guy behind Sun Life Organics, which is this really successful chain of juice bar cafes that are popping up all over Southern California. But it wasn't always that way for Khalil because it wasn't that long ago that he was a hope to die drunk and drug addict living in a cardboard box on skid row in downtown Los Angeles, shooting speedballs, smoking crack, completely unable to live and hoping to die. And Khalil's story, his tale is really astounding. From that depths, the absolute depths of despair, homelessness, hopelessly gripped by heroin addiction, Khalil really just, he was hell bent on dying. There's no other kind of way to put it. And yet somehow, by way of a grace, you know, far beyond himself, Khalil was able to come out the

other side. He was able to overcome unbelievable odds just to survive, to live. And he did it not just intact, but he is somebody who is now repaired. He didn't just find sobriety. He really found his true life purpose. And now he lives this really incredible, large and beautiful, successful existence. It's kind of a mind blower. He's definitely a miracle of sobriety. And I see stuff like this a lot

in my journey through sobriety. And I kind of forget that people not in the recovery world. Um, I forget that people that aren't in the recovery world and aren't as connected as I am to this kind of narrative might find this to be almost, you know, too much to believe, but I can tell you that I see stories like this a lot and I know other people like Khalil, but even amongst all of those people, Khalil's story really is beyond. And he has now written a book all about it. It's called, I Forgot to Die. It's a great book. It just came out and it's why he returned to the podcast so that he could tell us all about it. A couple more things I want to say about Khalil in a minute, but hey.

We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care. Especially because, unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem, a problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you

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struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. So I'm super proud to share my friend Khalil's story with you guys today. This is a very intense conversation. Khalil is somebody who is incredibly earnest and honest and somebody who allows himself to be vulnerable. And I think for those reasons, it's really powerful. And it's difficult to listen to

at times, but at the end of the day, it's a story that I really think that we can all get behind and celebrate because it's about overcoming and conquering impossible odds. And at its heart, it's a story of the redemptive power of the human condition, the idea that we all have within ourselves great capacities and reservoirs of possibility for change. And so this conversation is really for those out there who are still suffering. This one is for you. It's for people that are in the throes of addiction or alcoholism and can't see the hope.

And I want you guys to know that all is not lost, that there is a solution, that there is hope. There is always hope. And my hope is that you can find some hope in this conversation. So how did I do going off the cuff? It's a little repetitive. I think it was all right though.

Why don't you guys let me know what you thought of this way of introducing the podcast? Is it any better? Six and one half dozen the other? I don't know. Final thought. There's some grownup language in this conversation. So if you're squeamish about that kind of thing, or you got the kids in the car or what have you maybe pop in the earbuds or listen to it later. And with that being said, enjoy my conversation with Khalil Rafati. He's

a really special guy and I think you're going to dig it. All right, man, we're doing it. What's happening, Khalil? Awesome. What is happening? My book, I Forgot to Die, is being released tomorrow on Amazon. I know, right out of the gate with the plug, right? Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Shameless, you know? Shameless self-promotion. We're going to get into all that, but we can ease into it. Oh, oh yeah. It's all good, man. It's just, it's good to see you. I had to like kidnap you for a podcast just so that we can sit down and like catch up a little bit. Yes. I used to go into Sun Life and I could pretty much predict that you would be there if I didn't get there too early or too

late. And I'm like, oh, he'll be there. but i go into some life all the time and you're not around because you're too busy empire building or whatever you're doing i'm flying around to ufc fights or traveling off to some tropical location been doing a lot of that stuff i've been very very blessed in that regard and um yeah opening up more stores we just got manhattan beach today so i'm super excited so all right so so how many do you have now? You've got the original Point Dume, and then you opened up the other one in Cross Creek, so two in Malibu. Two in Malibu, one in Westlake slash Thousand Oaks, one in Calabasas near you guys. We're building Pasadena right now, and then we're doing West Hollywood, Beverly Hills, and then as of today, I just found out that we got Manhattan Beach.

That's crazy. So, wow. So where is the Santa Monica one and the Beverly Hills one and the WeHo one? No Santa Monica yet. Okay. Yeah, Pasadena. Pasadena one is off of Lake Avenue. There's a little center called the Pasadena commons and it's got like soul cycle, sugarfish,

lemonade, dry bar, and then sunlight is going in there. So that's great. Look, that's, that's a great spot to be in. Yeah. And then, uh, West Hollywood, we're going in right next to soul cycle and Equinox sunset Plaza, which is just the dream. That's ridiculous. Yeah. which is just the dream. That's ridiculous. Yeah. How do you get these prime locations? There are a handful of the top, top brokers,

I guess arguably in the world, that frequent Malibu a lot. There's Jay Lux, who everybody knows. There's Robert Cohen, James Ashton. Those guys all kind of, they're customers. And they made the huge, probably monumental mistake of giving me their personal cell phones. And so I just harassed them, threatened them, begged them. And, you know, after enough texting, emailing, calling, they just eventually deliver these home run locations to me.

That's amazing, man. Because I think when we first sat down, I can't even remember what episode number it was. I think it was in the 60s. So it had to have been almost two years ago, maybe a year and a half ago or something like that. And I think if I haven't gone back and listened to that conversation,

but I think you were just on the precipice of opening the second one or contemplating opening the second one. Yeah, or we just got the second one and I was having a bunch of issues with a partner at the time. And it was a pretty challenging, pretty, actually up until last December, we went through a very, very difficult time. And it looked like for a moment there that we were going to lose everything. Really? I didn't know that. What happened? Just a perfect storm. Basically, we had taken out two different loans and they give you six months where you just pay interest only. And then we had signed the third, I'm sorry, we had signed the

fourth lease. The third location, we just weren't doing the numbers there yet at the Calabasas spot. So we were actually losing money. The two loans kicked in. And then the fourth location, the city of Malibu said, you know, stop construction. Actually, not even construction. Stop demolition. You have no right to build here. You need to do a formal conditional use hearing, which could take like six to eight

months. So we literally had to stop everything. And then our rent kicked in. And you can imagine what the rent is down there. So we had this huge rent, huge loan payments, and we were losing money. So there was a last October, November, December, we were losing like 30 grand a month, 40 grand a month. Wow. Yeah. I remember when you started to build out, I mean, you took over the old Howdy spot, which is essentially there is no better location for like a casual restaurant space in all of Malibu. Like that is the spot. Yeah. And I was amazed just that you were even in the talks or that there was even a possibility that I could go there. I was like, how does that even work? And then I know that you guys began and then it, and then it seemed like nothing was happening for a while. And that's Malibu, man. I'm like trying to build in Malibu

or do anything in Malibu. Like it's crazy. I had, I had a two year period where I just, just kept knocking on their doors and I just kept getting no no after no after no. And I harassed everybody in that organization. I actually got that location myself. And after probably a hundred no's, a really sweet girl named Julie, who was one of our customers, came in and she said what about, you know, 200 other people had said like, oh, you should open up at Cross Creek. And I'm like, yeah, I've tried about a hundred times. And she said, Oh, my dad is the attorney for the, for the landlord down there. And I just, it was soon as she said that I knew it was going to happen. I mean, I still had to make another 150 phone calls and, um, let's just say, jump through a lot of hoops, but, and borrow some, uh, celebrity power from a few friends who, who, you know, uh, lobbied for me, but, um, we eventually

got it and, you know, the landlord, uh, is an amazing man who I love. And, uh, you know, he got a lot of flack, all those landlords in Malibu got a lot of flack because of all the big brands that were going in there, but he has treated us fairly and kindly, kindly. And, um, and we love being there and it's incredible. Yeah. Well, you're nothing if not persistent. I'm very persistent. You are a very persistent guy. Yeah. And it's interesting.

I mean, where are you, like, what's the vision, man? Are you just going to, you want to blow this thing out nationwide? Or like, what is the, you know, where is this heading? Where are you taking it? The Sun Life Empire. You know, initially we just wanted to get one store open. Um, you know, initially we just wanted to get one store open and then we had such an amazing response from everybody that we decided that we would go and open more and really, um, either need to kind of do one and be happy, or you need to do a whole bunch of them to

be able to, you know, to, to make it worthwhile, meaningful and financially, you know, for it to make sense. So right now we're building, we have four, we're building the fifth and we were building five more after that over the next 18 to 24 months. And are you taking in investor money in this, or are you just doubling down on, you're just reinvesting what you're making out of it? So strangely enough, after buying out our first partner, buying out our second partner. Um, someone came in and offered to purchase a small piece of the company for a massive amount of money right around that time

that we were really struggling. And, uh, I mean, I I'm getting goosebumps now, just, just thinking about it because it was literally one of those moments where I thought, my God, everything I've gone through and everything I've worked for is now, you know, going to fall apart. And yeah, somebody wanted to own a piece of the company, not, not a partner, just somebody that wanted to come in and buy a piece of a percentage of the company. And, and they did, and it was for massive amount of money. And that gave us enough money to pay off all the debt. So we're debt-free. It gave us enough money to open up six more stores. And it actually, for the first time since we started, five years, we were able to take some money for ourselves, which we had never done. We had never taken a penny out of the business and we were living paycheck to paycheck. And we

were living in a little 400 square foot guest house on this horse property and um you know no heat no air conditioning it was very very challenging time but it feels real good to be sitting here right now that's great man well you uh you you earned it you know because i know how hard you've worked and it's beautiful to see this thing kind of flourish and blossom around you thank you you do deserve it man it. It's cool. Thank you. So let's, I want to talk about the book, but maybe we can sort of revisit your personal story. Of course, we kind of sort of spent

most of the last podcast that we did together kind of going through that, but there's a lot of new listeners and you're probably new for a good percentage of the audience. So your background, your story is so incredible, man. Like, I just want to, I want to go there again. Okay. So let's take it back. Yeah, sure. I'll give you a, just a little quick, um, what's that called? A synopsis? Synopsis? Synopsis. Come on,

man. You're an author now. You got to like know these things. Still a high school dropout. Um, so, uh, both of my parents, both of my parents were immigrants to this country. My father was born in Jerusalem in what was Palestine at the time in 1935. And my mother was born in – I'm going to mispronounce it, but Gdynia. Gdynia, Gdynia. If you're Polish, don't be angry at the pronunciation. So like G-J or something like that? Yeah, some weird Polish spelling.

So both of them – she was born in Poland or something like that. Yeah, some weird Polish spelling. So both of them, she was born in Poland. He was born in Palestine. And they came to the U.S. And my father got lost in a big storm and wound up in Toledo, Ohio and ended up staying. And my mother came to Toledo looking for her mother. And she ended up staying. And they met at university. And she ended up staying. And they met at university.

And she was incredibly beautiful. And he, to this day, at 81 years old, is this strikingly handsome man with a full head of hair. It's kind of mind-boggling. He looks like he's like 60 and he's 81. Wow. and he's 81. But anyway, so this really incredible kind of angry man and really soft, gentle, and in many ways, broken woman came together and got married and they had me. And neither of them had any idea how to be a parent. And both of them came from different religions. Um, and they were living in, you know, Toledo, Ohio, which is kind of like, if you think back on the Brady bunch, like that's how.

Yeah. It's about as white bread as it's going to be. Yeah. And you're a little brown kid. A little brown kid with a weird name and weird parents and, um, uh, very, very challenging upbringing. His, his culture. Um, well, I don't know.

I don't want to bash my dad because I did a bit of that in the book, and I kind of am feeling bad about that right now because I love him dearly. Has he read the book yet? Well, he couldn't have because you just got your own copies today. Yeah, I just got my copy. It comes out tomorrow. But did you let him read the manuscript or no? No, no.

We're actually not speaking right now, which kind of is a drag. We've always had a strained relationship. Well, I know you went to Jordan like a year ago, right? We talked about that. We did go to Jordan and we kind of – in the middle of the desert in Wadi Rum, we kind of had it out. I sort of said to him what I've always wanted to say to him, which was, Hey man, you know, you were kind of not the best dad to, I'm putting it mildly. I was actually a real jerk and I laid into him really hard. And, and ever since that time, we haven't really been able to reconnect in any meaningful way. And you know, maybe I have, maybe I have some

growing up to do or some pain that I still need to process, but I love him dearly. He's an abrasive man. I am probably an incredibly frustrating child to have, and I think I probably also remind him a lot of my mom because I took on a lot of her characteristics. And they had a horrible relationship. It's not like he was this horrible, mean, violent – well, he was this horrible, mean, violent man. But he had a lot of help getting angry. My mother just has an ability to push buttons. And my mom desperately wants attention, and she knows the easiest way to get attention is to push someone's buttons. And she does it with me.

So I empathize greatly with my father. And if I grew up in the culture that he grew up in, which is a very violent culture, and if a woman disrespects you or doesn't behave the way you – Yeah, that doesn't fly. Yeah. You sort of – you know, you hit them. You set things straight. Yeah, set things straight. You're very diplomatic.

I wish I was as diplomatic as you. Yeah. There was a lot of violence. She also had a son who was eight years older than me. My father had her put him in an orphanage. Bad stuff happened to him in that orphanage. He got out of that orphanage eventually because my mother begged to bring him back. And whatever they did to him, he did to me. So that's a trip. So your parents hook up. She's got a kid.

Yeah. And he's like, that kid's got to go. Well, yeah. It's not his blood. Right. That's intense. Yeah. Yeah.

Again, I- Do you have a relationship with that, with your half-brother? No. No. No. He was pretty nasty and I think suffered a lot in that orphanage. I can't imagine the sort of mental trauma that that must have caused him. Yeah. So he came out and he took it out on me and he did some other, there was some sexual

abuse and stuff like that. And there was other kids in the neighborhood that were kind of brought in and, um, it was the early seventies and that was a very weird time to be growing up. I think anywhere in the country, uh, especially in middle America. And, um, I don't know what those kids thought they were doing, experimenting maybe, or maybe it was cute or maybe it was funny, but I was a small child and, and, and they did things to me that I knew even at that age that they shouldn't be doing to me. And it, and it scarred me for life and it was wrong. And, um, he, uh, no, last time I saw him, I think was 1986. And we had a very brief and violent, um, altercation. Um, the violence came from me this time rather than him. And I just kind of, you know, said, you know, you ever touched me again, I'm going to, am I allowed to swear? You can say whatever you want. Okay. Yeah. If you ever touched me again, I'm going to fucking kill you. And, um,

and that was it. And I felt horrible when I said it too, because I knew that he wasn't bad. Um, he's gay, I think almost positive. And I think maybe in some weird way, I'm not trying to make excuses for him, but I think there was sort of like some, maybe he experimented on me or something like that. I was confused about his sexuality. That's kind of how I've made peace with it. And I'm not, again, I'm not justifying it in any sense. I don't think that any adult should ever touch any child. And if they do that, they should, they should suffer dearly for it. Um, and, um, and it's wrong and there's nothing right about it. But for me, I had to forgive because I can't live in resentment and he was after all my half brother.

So that's just kind of how I made peace with it. That's a complicated situation. It's a complicated situation. And it doesn't make any sense to me. I just don't understand that. I don't understand how anybody would ever want to do something like that to a child. It makes me sick. And it was also a – How old were you when this went down?

I was like four or five when it started. Four, five, six. And then it just sort of became like a, it just sort of became like a self-fulfilling prophecy, kind of like I was desperate and needy. And that was how I, you know, learned to get attention. And it, it, it ended kind of, um, horribly and violently when I was 11 years old, because I had a swim coach we talked about on the last podcast who was groping me and stuff like that, which made me uncomfortable, but I really liked him. I really looked up to him.

And then he invited me camping and I kind of knew I shouldn't have gone. I go into it in the book and it doesn't end well that, that trip, but that was the last time that anybody ever did anything like that to me. I was 11 and then I turned 12 and I learned how to protect myself and I started fighting a lot. And I carried that shame with me for many, many years and it greatly affected me. And I don't know if the violence that I witnessed as a child, the sexual abuse, the neglect, I don't know what for whatever reason, but as I turned 12 years old, panic and anxiety attacks came on out of nowhere like a freight train and really almost was the end of me. Wow. If I would have had any guts at all, I would have ended my life because I didn't know what was going on. had any guts at all, I would have ended my life because I didn't know what was going on. You know,

it was not like, oh, wow, I'm 12. And I was playing Atari one moment. Now I'm feel like I'm falling backwards off a chair. I didn't know. I couldn't rationalize like, oh, I'm just having a panic attack. This will pass. I thought I was going insane. And I thought that if I told anybody that they would lock me up in a rubber room and no one would ever see me again. Well, this is this crazy witch's brew, you know, perfect storm of trauma, abuse, violence, anger, you know, abuse emotionally and physically, sexually, all of these things are conspiring to, you know, drive you towards drugs and alcohol. It's like no mystery that you're going to find that or discover that at some point. And this is going to be your solution, your escape from this horrible situation that you're being reared in. Yeah.

Drugs and alcohol and also sex were – I started having sex when I was 12. That was the first time I had sex with my neighbor who lived across the street. Her name was Kim. How old was she? She was 15. It's Ohio, man. I don't know. It was weird, weird times.

Again, I don't know why a 15-year-old would want to have sex with a 12-year-old, but maybe I lied about my age or something. I don't know. But sex was something that I hid behind. But drugs and alcohol, shoplifting, acting out, violence, getting in trouble, all of that stuff, those were my coping mechanisms. And like you said, I'm glad that those coping mechanisms were there for me. Yeah, I mean what would have happened otherwise? You probably would have been locked up or you would have taken your life or, you know, something else would have happened. Like there's no way that you could have just continued on this path without, you know, sort of something having to give. Yeah.

The, the panic and anxiety attacks became so intense that they became debilitating and they, and I actually for a short period of time became agoraphobic. And the only way that I could even somewhat cope with them was that I would bite my hands as hard as I could. And that somehow would make them – would lessen them or make them subside altogether. It's almost like cutting. I guess it was a primitive and early version. I never got into cutting. I got into self-mutilation much, much later in life with the psychosis, with the shooting coke and all that stuff.

But yeah, you're right. I didn't think about that until now. The pain made the pain go away? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I get it. I can understand that. And this just continues to escalate and at some point you blow out of town, right?

I started getting into real trouble and not like shoplifting trouble, but more like arson and doing stuff for some shady kind of like underworld figures. You know, remember Toledo is right below Detroit. Right. And, uh, there was a big mafia,

you know, thing going on in the fifties, sixties, seventies. It started to die out as I became a teenager, but there was still a good handful of those guys. Right. And they were-

You become like a runner for them or something? I did all kinds of stuff. Yeah. The statute of limitations is probably run. You know, you could- I think I share a little bit about that in the book, but I don't, I mean, a few of those guys are still alive and a couple of them I really love dearly and they were like father

figures to me. So, but yeah, I started getting into real trouble and I knew, I knew I needed to get out of there. And I had one brief trip out here to LA, which was like my dream to come to LA. And, and then I went back and got worse and worse and worse. And then eventually as I was 21 turning 22, I just bolted, I had $800 in my pocket and I headed out here looking to get away from trouble, looking to, to start a new life. And, um, and, and, you know, for a brief moment, I kind of, well, it's, it's the classic geographic. Like if I just changed my venue, all this stuff will be

behind me only to discover that you overlooked the one crucial fact, which is that you brought yourself with you. I did bring myself with me. And for many years, I used to always tell people like, yeah, man, I raised myself, which was kind of true, but I did a horrible job. I did a really bad job. And so, yeah. I mean, your parents, where are they when this is going on? I mean, they must have been going insane. My dad- Or they just checked out. No, my dad in 77, when I was seven,

I'm always the same as the year. That's how I'm good at remembering years. But in 77, he left and he was in the Soviet Union for two years, East Germany for two years. I think Venezuela, Japan, he kind of bounced all over the world and worked. My mother spent her days taking sleeping pills. And at night she worked at the local hospital, Toledo hospital. So from 10 PM on until 7 AM, my house was open. Yeah. There's no, uh, no parental supervision. Right. Right. So no, they had really nothing to do with my childhood. And my mom- That's so sad, man. Sorry to hear that.

Yeah, it sucks. But I got to tell you, for all of their faults, my mom is an amazing human being. And I talk to her all the time. And she did the best that she could. And my dad, if you met my dad, you would love him. All my friends love him. Everybody in his hometown, all the people, I mean, he still goes to work every day. So I just don't, I don't think, I don't know if he didn't want a kid or if I'm just unbearable to deal with, but my dad just,

I'm sure he would tell me otherwise, but my dad just didn't like me. He just, he never liked me. I think he wanted to love me because he felt as a father that he should love me. He had a bunch of other kids. Back in Palestine, he had some kids and I don't know, maybe he added some other ones, but. Oh, wow. So before he even came to the U.S. Yeah. He had a whole brood. He had a brood. Yeah. And he, he had, you know, his relationship with them was pretty strained as well. So it's not like, I don't know. I don't know if my, maybe my dad just never wanted to be a dad or it's some strange combination of all of it. But either way, look, here's the bottom line.

My dad was super hard on me. My dad knocked me around pretty bad and neglected me and was mean. But that's what made me into who I am today. Like I'm strong. I like me today. I like who I am today. And I can't, if I change the way that my dad treated me or if I change the way, if I went back and rearranged and turned my dad into this like, you know, Mr. Brady type of dad or like, what's his name? The dad that we all wished was our dad, Michael Landon. Right. If I went back and made my dad into Michael Landon on Little House on the Prairie, maybe I'd be dead right now. Or maybe I'd be working some bullshit job that I hated. Or maybe, you know, my dad did what he did and it forged me into the man that I am today. And the man that I am today, when I go to bed at night and I look in the mirror and I get up in the morning and I look in the mirror, I like who I see. And a large

part of that is my dad. Many of his characteristics, his strength, his fortitude, his persistence, his, you know, he's 81 years old and he mows his own lawn. He shovels his own snow. He, He's 81 years old and he mows his own lawn. He shovels his own snow. He, I can feel and taste that in me. So I am him. I am my mom. They, they didn't do, they didn't do that good of a job at being parents, but in the end, the end result is pretty, pretty cool.

Right. Well, that's, that's recovery. You know, you're owning your past, you know, we shall not wish to shut the door on our past. Right. So you're able to look back on that and see the good in it and have gratitude for that experience. And it doesn't mean that you, you know, you're rubber stamping his behavior, but you don't have to pretend it didn't exist or try to sugarcoat it or, you know, make excuses for your dad. sugarcoat it or, you know, make excuses for your dad. Yeah. And, and appreciate, you know, when I sat with those, many of those really powerful landlords or, you know, guys like, guys like Rick Caruso, you know, these billionaire dudes who, who, you know, I get to do business with now, I think a large part of why I get to do business with them is because watching my dad as a kid talk his way in and out of many situations and, and his ability to, you know, my dad spoke or speaks, my dad speaks seven languages, eight languages. My dad's a master communicator. I picked up on that as a child. So I didn't pay attention in school and I

ended up getting D minuses all the way through school and getting kicked out of three different schools and taking quite a few beatings as a result and dropping out of high school. But what they didn't teach me in high school, I picked up as a child watching him communicate. And so now I can communicate pretty well and deal with these amazing, brilliant men like a Caruso or like the dude I met today that owns this huge center in Manhattan Beach. Like we sat, I was a hundred percent comfortable talking with him and he had 10 different businesses that wanted to go into that spot. He hasn't had a vacancy in 10 years. So the one vacancy that opened up, I kind of weaseled my way in through the help of this guy, Robert Cohen. And they were like, wait, who is this guy? Like what, you know, he's going to personally guarantee this lease. Like we need to meet with them. I'm like, right on, man, bring it on. Come meet me,

come meet me at my spot. I'd love to meet you. And I sat with them face to face, man to man, human being to human being. I shared with them my story. I showed them my book. I'm not going to hide. I'm not going to lie. I'm a high school dropout. I'm a convicted felon. I can't spell. I can't type. I was homeless. I shot dope into my veins and I'm not ashamed of any of that stuff because that's what I had to do to survive. And I'm sitting in front of you. This is my business and I'm the anchor of this center and I'm going to come to survive. And I'm sitting in front of you. This is my business. And I'm the anchor of this center. And I'm going to come to your center and I'm going to be the anchor there. And maybe it was a little bit over the top and a little bit, you know, like not based in 100% reality because they've got some pretty amazing, you know, tenants there. But I think the guy

walked away going, I like this kid. Right. And he called me two hours later. He's like, you know what? We're going to go with you. That's pretty cool. I'm like, holy shit. So going back to my dad, that ability to communicate like that, um, that, that I learned from him. I didn't learn that from some nun or some priest back in Toledo at St. Patrick's of Heatherdowns. Right. Well, that's a long, uh, that's a long way from the kid who shows up on the sunset strip at 20. How old were you? 22. Uh, you know, and ends up in the gutter. So let's just, let's like revisit the, uh, the rock and roll dream. Um, I've always been obsessed with music. Music saved my life. You know, the, the drugs and the sex and the acting out was certainly the coping mechanisms, but music has always been, um, God, it's for me, it's just a panacea. I mean, it's just, it soothes my soul. You know, the, the, the drugs, the alcohol, the sex got me through the day physically, but the music was, was my soul. Um, I talk a lot about that in the book, about how when I first discovered certain bands

and the lyrics, how it just, music was always there for me. Who were your guys? I don't want to date myself or embarrass myself, but- You're already dated, man. We're about the same age. We are, yeah. Joy Division, you know, of course, the more popular ones, the Smiths, Secure, Sisters of Mercy, The Damned.

This is like 1986. Yeah. Or 1987 around there. Susie and the Banshees. I mean, all those weird Jean Loves Jezebel, all those weird bands that wore their emotions and their heart on their sleeves and, and spoke about, you know, Morrissey singing about his, his depression and his pain and his isolation and, and Ian Curtis, you know, God rest his soul,

really bearing it all in those songs and sort of crying out. Like, I was obsessed with music and I really thought that I was going to come out here and I was going to get into acting and I was going to get into music and I was going to become this huge star and get very, very famous and then punish everybody, you know, kill myself because – so then they would cry. Go out in flames, right? I mean that – That's the martyr. That was the plan and. How'd that go? Well, the acting went incredibly well in the beginning.

I, like, within three weeks had my SAG card. I was on a set as an extra, and I got picked up and taffed heartily into a commercial. See, that's crazy. That's like you have this magnetic personality. I feel like there are certain people, you're one of them, who no matter where they go, they'll soon be either the center of attention or they'll find out where the action is going on. And then they'll be sort of integrated in that seamlessly. perspective, I mean, you're a guy who's hanging out with Anthony Kiedis and flying to Vegas to go to the MMA fights. And you're, you know, you're, you're working out with Rick Rubin and all these, like you're surrounded by some pretty amazing, impressive people. But I feel like that's just

your karma. Like you're a guy who's, who just finds his way into those places naturally. Maybe, or maybe, I don't know. maybe I look weird and people feel sorry for me. I don't think it's that. You don't? No, I don't think it's that. It's a personality thing. It's a character thing. I mean, it's not,

how many people do you think get off the bus every day in Hollywood, you know, looking for their SAG card, and you, within a matter of weeks, some kid from Ohio shows up and gets it? Like, you know, there's a reason for that. And I don't know that it had anything to do with acting talent.

Yeah, yeah. I may just be a horrible actor. Maybe you're a great actor. I don't know. I've never seen you act, but you know what I mean? You know what I'm saying though? Yeah.

Yeah, so I don't know. Whatever the reason is, I got my SAG card. I got into a couple of commercials. I was very lucky with that. And then like I got – I don't know if it was an agent or a casting director, but somebody was like, look, you're amazing. We're going to send you out on some calls or castings or whatever it was. And they sent me in Santa Monica on, on Bundy and Olympic. They sent me to this casting and I walked in and, uh, it was all these guys that were like, like your height, you know,

like six feet tall, how tall are you? Six feet. Yeah. They're all six feet tall, gorgeous chiseled cheekbones and like, and hairless. They all had like their shirts undone or like they're, they had no arm hair. They had no arm hair. They had no chest hair. And I've always been really self-conscious about my hair and trimming my hair and manscaping or whatever they call it these days. I was manscaping when I was 12 because I'm Arab or half Arab. I've always been very self-conscious about my hair. But anyway, I walked in and there's all these – they had medium- hair like yours that you probably were there. I was not there. Okay. Well, they were, they were all these gorgeous, tall, hairless men. And here's me like at five foot seven and stocky and

stumpy and not proportioned. Right. And I literally just looked around and, and walked out and I never even went for the audition. I just said that's it. I can never – I can't be an actor. Little did I know – I mean that shows you what an idiot I was. Little did I know that like years later when I became friends with some of these big actors that they're all little stumpy guys like me. I mean they're all like 5'7 and super insecure and like me. I mean, they're all like five, seven and super insecure and like weird. Like, um, I've always been really self-conscious, like about the size of my head or like my legs are too short and I have this massive head. And then, you know, again, years later, 20 years later, I'm like

hanging out with these guys and I'm just like, guys got a massive head. Like he's really not proportionate. And the funny thing is, is on camera, that's what looks good. That's what draws people into their characters. Anyway, so the acting went great, and then my insecurity got the best of me, and I didn't pursue it. And then kind of the same thing with music. I went to Woodstock in 94 and I saw this kid performing on stage in front of

I think it was 300,000 people there it was the second Woodstock and he was playing with his dad's band the Allman Brothers and I just remember watching this kid 16 years old he's playing with the Allman Brothers and I'm just like my god can you imagine his name is Dwayne Betts

and I'm not into southern rock but i was so i wasn't into southern rock and i was so impressed by his performance i was so impressed by the allman brothers i was never a fan up until that point i hated the allman brothers because i grew up in ohio and that's what the guys that beat me up listen to so that's like redneck music yeah so i love them now so anyway um i I get back from Woodstock in 94 and try the acting thing for a while. And then I think it was maybe a couple years later, I thought, you know what? I'll start a band. I'll make some music.

So I was hanging out at the Malibu Inn. I saw this band there. There was a party afterwards. And I started talking to this kid, and real quiet. We were both higher than kites. I mean, we were so high. And I said, what do you do? And he said, I play guitar.

And I'm like, cool. Who do you play with or whatever? And he's like, yeah, well, my dad was in this band. I'm like, wait. You're not the kid that played at Woodstock, are you? And he's like, yeah, when my dad was in this band, I'm like, wait, I'm like, you're not the kid that played at Woodstock, are you? And he's like, yeah, yeah, that was me. And I'm like, what you played in front of 300,000 people. He's like, yeah, like he, he was so humble and he was so sweet. And we ended up forming this bond and this friendship. And, um, he is one of the greatest

guitar players on the planet, Dwayne Betts. And we wrote just a plethora of songs, really, really fun, really amazing songs. And then Mark Ford from the Black Crows, he came and played with us for a while. And Barry Oakley Jr. What was the band called? At one point when it had a name, it called american whore uh-huh so right um but we did much more drugs and partying um and hanging out with girls than we did actually doing gigs we only we only did a small handful of gigs um i have some pictures in the book of of some of those shows with my awful god awful platinum hair bleach blonde

bleach blonde with like the leather pants on and i think at some point we were hanging out with one of the victoria's secret models and she had the original angel wings and so i would wear those on stage on stage with my awful hair and anyway but the songs were good. And, um, but the drugs felt better and yeah, more rock and roll lifestyle, uh, less rock and roll. Yes. And my once, you know, I was doing recreational party drugs and a lot of these musicians were doing real drugs or not. I shouldn't say real drugs. So that sounds like I'm glorifying heroin and cocaine, but they were doing hardcore drugs and I was not, I was like going to raves and taking handfuls of ecstasy and, you know,

kind of living on the edge, but not really living on the edge. These guys did real drugs. And once I started doing real drugs, I watered the seed of self-destruction. What was that moment where you stepped over that line to, you know, enter that kind of darker realm? Um, just a natural progression or was there, I started doing heroin, just smoking it and it felt wrong and I knew it shouldn't be doing it. And I kind of got off on that feeling. And that's when it felt like there was some darkness setting in. And then we were at a club one night and there was a very famous actor sitting with a group of girls at a table. I was with a group of girls and he looked at me as if he knew me, which he didn't.

And he said, hey, man, you know, come on over. And I said, hey, what's up? And he's like, you want a bass hit? And I was like, of course. And I took this pipe. I thought, I don't know what a bass hit was. I thought he meant like pot or something like that, which I wasn't a fan of pot, but I was a huge fan of the actor. So I was going to.

Are you going to tell me who this guy is or no? No. I was going to smoke whatever he was handing me because I wanted to hang out with him and his bevy of beautiful women. And I smoked that and it was crack and it was – I mean it hit me like a shovel in the forehead. And we sat there smoking crack out in the open with all these – Right in the middle of a club. Right in the middle of a club. Right in the middle of a club. And no one was going to tell him no.

And I ended up going back to his house that night. And at a certain point, as the coke birds come out, when it's like that cold gray, steely, cold gray dawn, I looked around and everyone was gone except for him and i and we're still smoking what he was calling base which turned out to be crack cocaine and i left i went home i woke my girlfriend at the time up and i was shaking and i was crying and i was like oh my god oh my god i think i was smoking crack oh my god, oh my God, I think I was smoking crack. Oh my God. Like it was so, I told her, uh, I'm just going to get graphic for a moment cause this is literally what I said, but I was like, I, I, I, I was like sucking the devil's dick. Like that's, that's what I think. That's what it felt like.

And she was like, you got to calm down, take a Xanax, go to sleep. You're fine. And I must've said a hundred times, I will never do that again. I will never do that again. I will never do that again. And she like do that again. I will never do that again. And she like held me down as I shook myself and convulsed myself to sleep. And that was the last thing out of my mouth before I finally passed out was I will never do that again. And I lasted three days.

Just three days? I lasted three days, yeah. I found out how to get a hold of him and called him up and said, how do you buy that stuff? I found out how to get a hold of him and called him up and said, how do you buy that stuff? And I started smoking crack and smoking heroin daily. And that's when I crossed that line. And when does the shooting up start? Shooting up started maybe a year later, a year and a half later. I just couldn't buy enough or smoke enough to get high

anymore. It just, you build up such a tolerance, you know, every eight days, I think you need twice as much to get as high as you were the previous week. So it got to the point where, you know, I was spending $500 a day and not getting high. And are you working at this time? Are you just scamming people? Or how are you making money to be able to get by and manage this habit? I never scam people. I was doing honest work as a drug dealer, and I was making a small fortune. Okay.

Sorry. I was selling massive amounts of ecstasy. I had a furniture business at the time and I had a girlfriend who had some money as well. So I was able to... I mean, you were able to keep it together for longer than most, I think. And you kind of went through all these different jobs. I mean, you were a dog walker, a nanny, a musician, of course, car detailer, furniture maker, before getting sober and becoming a rehab counselor. And ultimately you founded a sober living, right? I did, yeah. And of course, drug dealing. Yeah. Thrown in for good measure along the way.

Yeah. So, I mean, you're a survivor, but even that instinct almost failed you. It did. And again, the survivor part comes from, you know, both my mom and my dad. My mother was in Poland when the Nazis invaded. Her mother dumped her off on a doorstep with two sisters who were strangers. And my mother was then shipped off from Kazakhstan to Uzbekistan and all those different stand countries, which I can't pronounce, and eventually wound up in Siberia

in a work camp. My father, whenever that was, I should know this, I suppose, whenever the United Nations turned most of Palestine into Israel, my father became a refugee in his own land and was eventually, which I didn't find out until we were on our way to Jordan, but was eventually kind of adopted by the Jordanians and became a Jordanian citizen. So yeah, I'm a survivor and I can't take credit for it. That strength comes from my mom and from my dad, but I was a survivor. But unfortunately, it's like that saying, somebody's getting, you know, beat up by a baseball bat, you know, they, they run, uh, or they fight back or whatever. And alcoholics getting beat up by a baseball bat. And he looks up

at the guy with the bat and he goes, Hey, can you slow down? Right. That was me. Right. I just kept, you know, getting beat up by that baseball bat because I was such a survivor. It got darker and weirder and, uh, and things just became progressively worse and worse and worse. Right. So where does this all lead you? I mean, at some point you're, you're, you're basically homeless, right? You're living down on skid row. Yeah. Psych, psych, psychosis, uh, sort of almost borderline schizophrenia, I would say. Um, if that's possible to, to have some sort of coke-induced schizophrenia, I definitely was living in that psychotic state, lost everything. All of those cool, like, B- and C-list actresses and models and cool friends living on second-generation fame, when you start getting, like, scabs and abscesses and stuff like that, they're no longer interested in you being around.

Right. I mean, you're, you're down to like 120 pounds or something like that. Right. And you got, you got sores on your face and I mean, it's not, you're not a vision for you. No. In the end, when they finally weighed me, when I went into that facility, I was 109 pounds.

Yeah. And, um. That's unbelievable. Yeah. I'm a hundred and. How long were you down on Skid Row? Um, I bounced around on the streets for a year to a year and a half, I'd say probably 18, 19 months. I was down there without any hope, without any, you know, my mother was broke living below the level of poverty. My father, I hadn't spoken to in years. I had burned every bridge that there was.

I mean I just was that guy that would like – because I was a good communicator I suppose. I would – can I have your ATM card? Can I get your PIN number? Can I borrow your car? And like people would do it. I mean first they would do it I guess because they were drug addicts too and they wanted drugs and they weren't willing to go downtown and buy the real, I keep glorifying the drugs, not the real stuff, buy the bad stuff, buy the hard stuff, I would go down and get it.

But sooner or later, I would also disappear with your car and your ATM card for three days, five days, and show up with my tail between my legs apologetically. I mean, most hardcore drug addicts are pretty resourceful. You have to be in order to maintain a habit, but to have that extra reservoir of resourcefulness or have it hardwired in your DNA like you do, that's not a good combination. No, no. Being resourceful and being, I don't want to say smart, because I've never considered myself crafty. Yeah, not smart, but crafty. Like I knew when to

go into the welfare office to get the food stamps on the day where you were going to get the most food stamps. I knew how to go in and manipulate the system and get the check, you know, sent. You could actually back then, I don't know if you can still do it, but these are your tax dollars and my tax dollars we're talking about, but you can actually – you don't even need an address. They will – if you're indigent, indigent? Indigent. Yeah. They will mail the check there and then you can just show up and you can pick up the check for whatever it was plus your food stamps.

And they would even give you bus tokens and hotel vouchers. Oh, wow. I didn't know about hotel vouchers. Oh, yeah. Two weeks, three weeks sometimes. Wow. So I would get the food stamps and the check. Sometimes I would just get the food stamps

because I was too antsy to wait around or jonesing, whatever. And they give you bus tokens and you go straight to the check cashing places. And right outside the check cashing places are the people that will trade you like 60, 70 cents on the dollar for your food stamps. And then, you know, who's waiting right around the other corner, the drug dealer, the drug dealer. Yeah. So I would go and I would, you know,

trade my food stamps for cash. And then I would go to the wholesale guys because they would come out at five in the morning and I would load up on the bulk. I would get my balloons. It comes in balloons. And I would buy my 20-pack, 30-pack, 50-pack, whatever of balloons. And then I would go and stand on the corner. And as the business people or workers or idiots like me were getting off the bus, I was spitting balloons in their hands and selling them for 10 bucks, 15 bucks. Um, then I was buying them for five or three or whatever.

Yeah. So, and, and would you go stay in a hotel for a couple of weeks if you had those vouchers or is it back to Skid Row? Um, back and forth, you know, when I got filthy enough or itchy enough, um, then I would go and get a hotel. And I could usually manipulate my mom once a month into sending me $100. So, yeah, I would get a hotel. I would clean up, try to make myself presentable, go to the welfare office, et cetera, et cetera. Right. And when you're living down on Skid Row, I mean, is there like a community?

Yeah. So, you know, because, I mean, paint the picture for people that don't live in los angeles and have never seen it i mean it's a shantytown essentially it's yeah they call it tent city it's like a refugee camp yeah there's people living in cardboard boxes and there's a lot of really scary violent you know murderers rapists etc living down there unfortunately there's also a lot of really really incredible kind souls living down there and a lot of mental illness i would imagine a lot of veterans mostly yeah there's a lot of mental illness a lot of the veterans sell their pills and they sell the needles and then you know the the gangs sell the different right there's like

a whole barter economy going on. There is. That's amazing. And there was a guy named Ghost. I think his real name was Kenny. And I was in one of those situations, three o'clock, four o'clock in the morning where I was trying to buy some stuff

and the guy's like, yeah, man, come here, come here. Led me into the alley. I'm like, come on, give me the stuff. Yeah, come here, come here. Got me far led me into the alley i'm like come on give me the stuff yeah come here come here got me further enough for far enough back into the alley and the you know the dudes were coming out from each corner and it was game over i knew in that moment i was gonna die and out of the shadows comes this tall black dude named ghost and looks at the guys and says, fuck you doing, you know, and they all were startled. And he's like, get the fuck out of here. And they all ran. And then he came up to me

and he was like, what are you doing? I'm like, I'm, I'm, I'm trying to get, I'm trying to get well. I'm trying to get some stuff. And he's like, man, they're going to kill you. I'm like, I'm, I'm sorry. I I'm, I'm sick. I need, I need. And he just like, you know, pulled a balloon out, handed it to me. He was a dealer. And for whatever reason, I don't know if he was peeing behind the dumpster or fixing or who fucking knows, but yeah, there was some, there was some angels down there on them streets. That's crazy. Have you ever, have you ever reconnected with that guy? Um, do you know if he's still around? No, I looked for him. Uh, when I was working at this place called the Canyon,

I used to make up sandwiches and take bottled water. And, um, I would drive back down there and I would hand out, you know, lunches like paper bag lunches to people. And I ran into quite a few people who remembered me, uh, people who remember me by name. And they were like, Whoa, what are you doing? Wow. And, uh, I never, but I never saw him again, him. And there's another guy when I was in County jail named Chris reefer. That was his real name. He says, but Chris reefer saved my life. He was, uh, like a, a Watts jungle crip or one of those crazy, you know, gang names. He had, he had come from a gang in Watts and I was trying to, uh, get a roll of toilet paper cause I was sick. I was going

through withdrawal. And when you're in County jail, the big gang guys, they use the paper towel rolls as pillows when you're laying on the benches and you're being processed because it takes days. And I didn't know. And I kind of naively and innocently and stupid really walked out. I mean how would you know that though? Well, no one else was asking them for the paper towel rolls, which I thought was peculiar. And there was no toilet paper. So I'm like I'm going to shit my pants here. So I need some toilet paper. So I'm like, I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna shit my pants here. So I need some toilet paper.

And I went over and I woke the guy up and wow. I mean, they all jumped up and this black kid clothesline me and he dragged me away kind of around the corner and threw me up against the wall and was like, you know, fuck's wrong with you? I'm like, I got to go to the bathroom. And he's like, they will kill you, man. You don't touch them. They will kill you. And I'm like crying and shaking and, you know, like I'm sorry. And, you know, he said go to the bathroom.

And I went to the bathroom. I came back and people had settled back down and gone back to sleep. And he whispered to me, he's like, you got to get out of general population because they will kill you. You don't touch those dudes. You don't ever look at them even. He's like, tell the guard you want to kill yourself and get out of general population. How long were you locked up? That particular time, like 11 days, 12 days.

How many times did you go in and out? It's hard to say, but I think maybe three times in the L.A. area, once in Texas for a little bit longer. Were they all like possession and distribution charges? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was all drug-related charges. I don't want to say I wasn't a bad guy. I certainly was behaving like one, but I was – I mean, I wasn't like robbing old ladies. I was like selling drugs and not, not that, you know, that, I mean, selling drugs is bad and it's disgusting. And,

you know, I wish I didn't do that. Cause I'm sure it, you know, badly affected people's lives, but like I had to do what I had to do to survive. And so for somebody who's listening, who, you know, isn't, isn't, uh, you know, somebody in recovery doesn't really have any connection with anybody who, uh, is addicted to hard drugs. I mean, what is it, what is it like when you're a hardcore heroin addict and crack addict, and you're in that cycle of getting high and then getting sick and getting high? Like what is that emotional, mental, and kind of spiritual headspace that you live in? The only thing that I could liken it to is, and I may have said this before,

but just imagine if you're a normal person, you don't understand drug addiction. And I'm not talking about partying. I'm talking about real addiction like you were just saying, you know nonstop, you can't get out of it. Right, around the clock. Yeah. That would be like imagine you're on a bus or you're on a plane and you're going someplace on vacation and some dudes stand up with machine guns and they say, guess what? You're not going on fucking vacation. You're coming with us and you're going to do whatever the fuck we say. and vacation. You're coming with us and you're going to do whatever the fuck we say. That's what it was like. Something comes along and takes your soul from you without your consent. If you mess with that darkness long enough, there is a component of spiritual warfare. I'm sure Christians

would call it the devil and other religions would have other words for it. But that evil, that darkness, it's real, it's there, and it will take your soul from you and it will not give it back. You know, it's not like you can just be in the midst of fixing and smoking and fixing and selling and fixing and smoking. And then you're just like, ah, you know what? I think I'll take a few days off. That doesn't, it's not an option. First of all, you have a physical, mental, psychological dependence on this stuff, meaning you cannot live without it. So imagine the hungriest you've ever been in your life times a thousand. That's what coming down off of speed balls, heroin crack, that type of stuff feels like. The hunger, the pain, the anxiety, there's no way I could even properly articulate it. And there is no choice.

I'm going to get well, we used to call it, which is so sad to think that that's what we called it. I'm going to get well by whatever means necessary. And if that means allowing things to happen to me on the streets, I was never going to go hurt somebody to get high, but I didn't mind myself being hurt, so to speak. Yeah, all regard for self-respect goes away. And this level with the removal of choice sets in hopelessness, right?

It becomes a very, very dark place. And at the same time, well, a couple of things. I mean, first of all, it's like a full-time job, right? The amount of effort that you have to put into like maintaining the cycle of lunacy is extraordinary. It's a 20-hour-a-day deal. Right. And it's not about getting to a place of elation.

High is almost a misnomer because you're just trying to – your tolerance becomes so high that it's just about feeling okay. Yeah. Right? Yeah. And not being sick. Not being sick and you're also, I shot speedballs, which is heroin and cocaine together. If I wasn't shooting to death's door,

I think I'm misquoting Janis Joplin, but I definitely grabbed that line and hung on to it because I related to it so well. But if I wasn't shooting to death's door, then it wasn't even worth it. So in other words, you would put as much into that spoon and as much into that syringe and push as fast as you could into that vein that I could humanly do could, you know, humanly do in order to try and get that high. That's what it was like in the end. I mean, we're not talking about the beginning where you take an ecstasy and you're dating a model and you're going to a club and you're going backstage at a concert. Like those were really interesting, fun times. But, um, in the end, it's just, in the end, it's just, it's hopelessness. It's a godless existence and, um, it's hell.

You're living in hell. It's not even purgatory. It's hell. And most people don't ever claw out of it, unfortunately. You know, almost all of my friends, my good, good friends, um, that I got high with back then, they're all gone. They all died. Suicide, overdoses, heart attacks, they all died. And these were great people. These were really, really amazing people. And it hurts to think about that. So how did it happen for you?

Like, what was the moment where everything turned and you had the wherewithal to kind of surrender and begin this journey of recovery? I go into acute detail in the book over a bunch of pages, but I mean, really just a culmination of events, the county jail, county hospital. I don't know what was worse, the county hospital or the county jail. I'm just kidding. I'm saying that that wasn't very nice to say, because thank God there was a county hospital for me to go to. I overdosed so many times and took so many ambulance trips, getting locked up, getting beat up, some weird dark stuff that only happens to you if you're living on the street had happened. And it was starting to repeat itself over and over. And I was like, you know what? I can't do this anymore.

So it wasn't a moment of virtue. It wasn't a moment., of virtue. It wasn't a moment, you know, there's that saying of like the sky parted and you know, the angels flew down. No, no, there, there were, there were epiphanies after I put down the spoon and picked up a fork, you know, there was definitely, um, not burning bush moments, but there were definitely times in my very early recovery where I was praying and hoping that there was a God. And I did have some incredible moments where God, whatever that means, you know, came to me, held me. I used to, my prayer in the very beginning

for years always was just like, God, can you please just hold my hand right now? Can you please just walk with me and hold my hand because I'm scared and I don't think I can make it. That was my prayer for years. And strangely enough, I think that prayer worked better than any of the others. I got quicker answers back then. Now my prayers are very fancy. You know, now I like pray before each meal and I fold my hands like this and you know, I, I, I have this like whole thing that I go through and, uh, there's a bit of pomp and circumstance involved in that. And I'm sure ego

as well. Uh, but, and it's at Nobu, you know, or whatever, but you know, back then it was like hands gripped, white knuckles on my knees, like, God, please, with tears in my eyes, like, God, please, can you be with me right now? Can you please hold my hand? Can you please make these feelings go away? Because you got to remember, even after I stopped, because of all the events that led to me eventually stopping, the overdoses and the hospitalization, all that, there was 18 months of psychosis without the drugs. So the paranoia and the cravings in the, you know, yes, I, I, I asked God for help. Uh, I think it was on my third day.

I asked God for help and there was this amazing feeling of levity and lightness that came to me. And there was this knowing that there was a God. I mean, very, very real knowing that there was something that had created me and that something loved me and was going to take care of me. I knew that on day three. It did not take the cravings away. That did not take the paranoia and the psychosis away. And rightfully so, because it also didn't cause the cravings and the paranoia and the psychosis. Yeah, I think that there's a lot of misunderstanding about early sobriety. You think you go in, oh, now I'm sober.

I haven't used in however long. And all your problems are going to get miraculously solved and your health will just immediately repair itself. And, you know, what I found in my experience and with so many people that I know is those are some of the hardest times. You've taken away somebody's medicine. They're an emotional infant. They don't have any tools for how to handle anything. And all of the, you know, sort of wreckage of the past comes crashing down on them like niagara falls without any aptitude for how to manage it and it becomes overwhelming i think that drives a lot of people back to use before they can stick around long enough to begin to piece things back together

but that's selfishness that's selfishness because. Because on my hardest days, weeks, months, whatever it was, penniless – I mean what is a guy going to do at 33 years old? He's a high school dropout. He's a convicted felon. He can't spell. He can't type. He's not that bright. Maybe he kind of presents well and communicate well, but what are you going to do? I couldn't go get a job I mean I went and I got a job at a rehab center like driving the druggie buggy or like washing dogs and stuff like that but you know it's it was brutal

and I would cry a lot but in those moments I knew that I had a choice and I also knew that if I went back to the drugs, I went back to being a liability versus an asset because on my worst days, and we talked about this a little bit last time, I think towards the end on my worst days, I could still put the shopping cart back to the front of the store and not look around and see if someone saw me do it.

I could still pick up the piece of trash when I walked past it and just pick it up and just put it away. And if I had a couple of bucks in my pocket and someone didn't, I could still, without making a big scene, I could still hand them a little bit of what I had and not stand around and give them a lecture or hope that they didn't spend it on drugs and alcohol or whatever. I could just like share a little bit of what God had graced me with. And I had many opportunities to throw it all away in my first five years of just going to meetings, working, going to meetings, working, going to meetings, working. I mean, I had a lot of defeats. I had a lot of, you know, there's one story that always comes back to me.

I looked so ugly. I mean you can see kind of on the cover of the book. Right, the cover of the book is you at your – that's when you checked in at – where was the rehab? In Pasadena, right? No. Unfortunately, that was my first attempt when i checked into the rehab in laguna beach i got much worse than that i got much yeah you got the bleach blonde hair you got all these sores on your face and i got much much much worse and you look older in this picture than you do now

yeah yeah well not smoking crack and shooting heroin and drinking some green juice and some superfood smoothies will do wonders. And also I quit smoking and I'd smoked for 20 years. But back to what I was saying is I always go back to this one story. Like I was ugly. Like nobody wanted to be with me. I would like just make eye contact with any girl and like try to like, you know, I was like running after newcomers. I was a real dirt bag, but I was desperate for attention because I just wanted someone to like me. I wanted someone to hold me and tell me it was going to be okay. And I, and this girl, this young woman, 30,

31, 33 years old Pilates teacher, gorgeous, amazing. She started paying attention to me and she made it clear that she was interested in me. And I went and, you know, got my blood test and, you know, knew that I was clear to do whatever. And I was super excited. And, uh, did you, did you, were you someone who was walking around thinking, uh, I must have AIDS or I must have, yeah, for sure. Shared needles every day. So, uh, but you know, so after all of that, once I must have, yeah. For sure. I shared needles every day. So, but, you know, so after all of that, once I had got, that was actually my second blood test because she wanted to see proof, I guess, because I look so rough. I look like I had AIDS. But anyway, I couldn't believe that this beautiful woman wanted to be with me.

And she was renting a place on Broad Beach. She was rich. And, and she invited me over and I just, I don't remember ever being happier. I was just so, I was elated. I was walking on air, just so happy that this girl wanted to be with me. And I went to her place and we ate and I don't know, I think she made me like some espresso or something. And then kind of came that moment where we were going to start hugging and holding and kissing and this and that. And I lost it. I started crying. We were kissing and she was holding me and I just started crying and that, and she held me in the, in the, in the tighter, she held me the more I cried and I really let go. I guess I really needed to cry.

In early recovery, I really needed to laugh and I really needed to cry. I sobbed and she held me. It was so beautiful. And we didn't end up doing anything sexually. We kissed a little and she held me and I cried a lot. And then I drove home back to this guy, Barron's house, who was letting me sleep on his sofa. And I was so excited. I woke him up. He was this big biker dude that was in another 12-step program for tough people and covered in tattoos.

And I remember waking up and being like, dude, dude, you got to wake up. This chick loves me and I love her. And I cried. And he's like, what the fuck are you talking about? He's like, go to bed. And I'm like, no, no, no, you don't understand. And I told him this whole story about how she held me. And I cried and I woke up in the morning and I was calling her and she wasn't answering. I'm calling, I'm calling. And, uh, finally he goes, Hey man, you got a message on the home phone. And I listened to it and she was like, you know, hey, it's whatever, Sophia or whatever. She says, hey, it's Sophia. I just wanted to talk to you a little bit about last night. Listen, you know, you need to get some help. I've been

around people that have had psychotic breaks before and you really need to seek professional help. And at this point I'm not able to be with you or hang around with you. And I just fell on the ground. I'm like, what is she talking about? Psychotic break? I felt like I was in love. And I was so damaged and so wounded over that because I thought I had finally found someone that wanted to be with me.

That would have been an opportunity to go get high. But I knew in that moment I could go back to being a dirtbag and harassing my mom and threatening to kill myself and having her Western Union me money so I could go shoot some more poison into my veins. Or I could go to a meeting and I could raise my hand and I could share what had happened and I could go and ask for work and I could work and get to the point I could work and, and, and get to the point where I could support myself and feed myself. And I had many, many, many opportunities

and I'm not toot my own horn because I really truly believe that I live an amazing charm life. And a lot of it is the grace of God. But when the opportunity came for the high road or the low road, as hard as it was for me, I chose to take the high road in all those situations. And what do you think it was inside of you that allowed you to do that? I didn't want to be a piece of shit anymore. I just didn't want to be a piece of shit anymore. I didn't want to be a liability to my community, to society, to my friends, to my parents. I just didn't want to live like that anymore. I didn't want to be a sc to my community, to society, to my friends, to my parents. I just didn't want to live

like that anymore. I didn't want to be a scumbag anymore. I think you're somebody who's a pretty extraordinary example of recovery in action and service in action. You're somebody who's really embraced the program. And it's always weird when I want to talk about recovery because I don't want to trample the traditions in doing that. But it's but I think it's also important to kind of like I want to be able to talk about it, too. So I never know where that dividing line is. But I mean, I don't mention I don't mention what 12 step program I'm talking about. There's a million different 12 step programs.

The traditions are that we don't mention it, you know, on, on press radio or film or whatever, but I can certainly say that I was part of, and I am part of a 12 step program that, that teaches me spiritual principles and people can guess or not guess what that program may be. Um, and, uh, those spiritual principles are, are, are how I'm here today. And the crazy paradox is I don't do it right. I don't, you know, I'm bad at taking direction. The only thing that I've managed to pull off, and I think it has more to do with the grace of God

than my own personal fortitude and strength, but I didn't go get high. I didn't drink or get high. It's been 12 and a half years. But you really do embrace the principles and you live them. Like I've seen you in action and you're somebody who is of service to a lot of people, man. I know for a fact you've helped a lot of people get sober and you care. And you're somebody who understands that that has to take top priority in your life. And that

doesn't mean that you do it perfectly. Nobody does. But, you know, I've witnessed it, you know, and so I think that the point that I'm trying to make, and I'm doing it very inarticulately, is, you know, you're a great success story of sobriety. And I think that's a function of the level at which you have made it a priority in your life. Yeah. It's hard for me to hear that because, you know, there's still a large part of me that feels like a piece of shit, you know, even on my best days. And I appreciate you saying that.

And I definitely, I definitely strive to be the person that you're describing. I definitely on a daily basis, give as much effort as I possibly can to be the man that God intended me to be. And most days I'm not. And most days I fall short of the mark and I get stuck in areas like, um, jealousy, fear, um, lust, you know, like sometimes I like guy, like people embrace me and they love me and they're these like awesome dudes or whatever and they're great customers. And then, you know, like I like look at how beautiful their daughter is or whatever. And I just like beat the shit out of myself for being like, you know, like thinking like that.

Like, God, this guy came in three days ago. Coolest guy ever. His daughter's visiting from from university. And we were having this conversation and, and it was such a great conversation. And then he introduced me to his daughter and she was so beautiful and she was so nice. And I was like looking at her and I was kind of tripping over my words. Cause I'm like, God, I hope this guy doesn't think like, I think his daughter's hot, but I think his daughter's hot. And like, and then I like messed up and she was asking me what I thought of her nose piercing.

And I was like, oh, man, God made you so perfect and so beautiful. And then I said, and so fit. So fit. How would you tell some 20-year-old girl in front of her dad that she's fit? And I'm like, God, did I really just say that? I felt like such a scumbag. You know, he laughed and he probably didn't care. And it's probably my own shit, but I struggle. I struggle with insecurity and, and fear and jealousy and anger and all that stuff. I think maybe even more so than your average bear, but I do definitely

make an effort, um, to try to be the man that God intended me to be. Um, and sometimes I do that because I know in my heart, it's the right be. And sometimes I do that because I know in my heart it's the right thing. And sometimes I do that because I know that if you treat people really well, in general, people treat you really well. And I know there's people out there that are going to try to argue that. And of course, there's freak accidents and like the thing in Paris and the poor people in San Bernardino. There is that stuff. But in general, the people I look up to and admire,

yourself being one of those people, I see the way you raise your kids. I see the way you treat your wife. And it brings tears to my eyes because I look up to you and I respect you so much. And you have a great life because you're a great guy. And guys like I mentioned earlier, guys like Rick Caruso, like people think a guy like that is lucky. He's not lucky. That guy is an amazing human being.

And he, I'm the last guy on earth. He needs to return a text, you know, to a happy holidays or whatever. And yet he always does. And he always sends some nice little thing like, you know, you're a great guy and you deserve all the success that you have and there's much more coming and blah, blah, blah. I'm like, is this guy really – is he really saying that to me? Like, you know, it just – give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and, you know, hopefully he can feed himself for a long time. to fish and, you know, hopefully he can feed himself for a long time, but tell an insecure, somewhat broken, banged up dude from the streets that he deserves success. And you create a successful human being, you, you create a successful man. And, um, you know, all of those

guys, generosity and love and kindness and strength, like even the dude from Malibu kitchen who like, you know, fed me and, you know, I see him in sunlight all the time. I mean, you know, on some level he's your competitor, you know, he's right across the way he sells food, you know, but he, I've seen him in sunlight many times, twice a day. Right. Great, great human being. And he actually looks like he lost a bunch of weight too.

He lost 111 pounds. Oh, I didn't know it was that much. Yeah. He's drinking juices every day and drinking smoothies every day. Uh-huh. And I love all those guys. And so, yeah, back to the service thing, super, super important, and none of this would be possible without it.

And there's also that component of like if you really go out of your way to help people, sooner or later you're going to start to kind of, you know, feel, feel pretty good. And if you feel pretty good, then you start to, you know, kind of behave differently. And then when you start to behave differently, then different types of people want to run around with you or hang out with you. And, uh, yeah, I carry those spiritual principles into my relationships and I I'm friends with some of the most incredible people on the planet today. I'm very, very blessed as a result of that, and it's pretty amazing. Yeah, it's that core idea of if you want self-esteem, perform esteemable acts.

Yes. Which I'd never heard until I was in a rehab, and that water rises to its own level. When you're dealing with relationships, if you're trying to attract that person into your life, you need to be the kind of person that that person would want to be with as opposed to looking to them to solve your problem. Yeah. And I think a lot of people get confused about that and end up chasing their tail. Yeah. get confused about that and end up chasing their tail. Yeah. And then also just kind of being aware, like, I want people to like me and I don't want people to, I mean, if someone legitimately needs help or whatever, like you can't afford

to, you're dog sick or whatever. And I'm in a position where I can help you. Like that happened with one of the employees. Like, yeah, of course I'm going to help them out. But like, I don't like, I got a text message yesterday, like, Oh my God, dude, congratulations on your book. I didn't recognize a number. How do they know I have a book? Congratulations on your book, dude, you're crushing it. You're doing so amazing. Blah, blah, blah. Cause you, could you please go to please fund me or fundraise this or fun? Like, wow, that's really a compliment with an ask yeah so i i'm always incredibly sensitive when i

get to be around some of these amazing people that i get to be around not because i'm cooler because i'm special but because of where i live and because i feed people if you live near really amazing people and you feed them long enough and you you treat them with dignity and respect and treat them like human beings sooner or later maybe they want to hang out with you. And I never, ever, ever ask them for anything. So simple. Just leave them alone. You know?

Yeah, they're probably not used to that. Everybody's hitting people up like that all the time. Or they have to put on this filter. They never really know who their friends are or who's angling them for this or that. I can tell them about your book and I can hand them your book and I can say, this guy's awesome. Check his book out. But I'm not going to call them up and be like, I wrote a book. Please, you know, tell everyone about it.

You know, David, this morning I saw him. He saw it. You know, I handed it to him. And then three hours later, someone's like, oh my God, David, just. Yeah. David, you're, you're talking about David Duchovny who just tweeted it. I'm sitting here preparing for the podcast with you and I'm looking at my Twitter feed and I saw that he tweeted that and I just, I retweeted it and said, as a matter of fact,

I'm sitting here getting ready for him to come over and sit down with me right now and pick up the book. Just amazing. He's an amazing human being and an amazing friend. And, um, and for him to do something like that is incredible, but you know, never in a million years would I say like, Hey man, can you, and that's the mistake that everybody makes. They get around someone who's got cool stuff going on and they immediately want a selfie or they immediately want them to listen to their mixtape or they immediately want them to get them a part in a movie. Like what?

What are you thinking? That's a number one way to get these people to walk away and never look at you or talk to you again. All right. Well, let's get into the book. I mean what inspired you to put pen to paper and create a book? You did. Oh, come on, man. We did a podcast. You did. Oh, come on, man. We did a podcast.

You encouraged me, I think even during the podcast, to do a book. You definitely, after the podcast, encouraged me to do a book. I was obsessed with your book, Finding Ultra. I must have given it,

I'm not exaggerating, I probably gave that book to 30, 40 people. Yeah, you've been an amazing support to me. And I need to thank you and want to thank you for doing that. Because I know that you've handed out my book to a lot of people. There's that one crazy incident that happened when you gave it to Gerard Butler. And he walked outside of Sun Life.

And the paparazzi were there and took all these pictures. And it was all over the internet of him walking. And you could clearly see the cover of my book. I was like, that was the greatest press moment of my life. That's just Jerry. He's just an awesome guy. And I was so happy that that had happened. But your book really, really, really inspired me.

That guy that wrote A Million Little Pieces, that book really inspired me. I had six months when I borrowed that from some girl and I read it in like three days and it gave me so much hope. And, you know, I was more literal. This isn't a book. This is like a, a sort of my, my diary or a memoir or whatever with some pictures in it.

Um, I don't care if he made up the fact that he got arrested in my particular james fray yeah yeah i love that book too and i don't really care about any of that because i read it in early sobriety and it meant a lot to me it meant so much i connected with it i could you know i could really see myself in that story he helped me so much and at the time i was going to the dentist and he talks about that horrible experience. I had seven extractions, you know, these beautiful teeth that Dr. Hirsch so lovingly gifted me, uh, 10 years ago. Um, they all had to come out first before they put crowns in or implants or whatever. And so, you know, James Frey really inspired me. Um, he made up that he got arrested, whatever. I got arrested. I put the

mugshots in there just to make sure if anyone wanted to contest that. I actually have my mugshots in the book, but James Frey, Rich Roll. And then I called you, we met at Air One and I was just like, look, man, I can't just keep talking about writing a book. I need to actually do it. And you were very pragmatic and you said, okay, get up every morning, write for a certain period of time and just do it. And I took that advice and I started getting some traction. And then, um, one of the kids that works for me, Laura, uh, at the thousand oaks location, she works in the Malibu location now, but she called me up. She's like, oh, hey, yeah, just wanted to let you know that there's this company and they're going to do your book.

They'll like make your book and like, yeah, and all you have to do is call them. I'm like, call her back. I'm like, what are you talking about? She's like, there's this company, book in the box. I think I told you about those guys. You did. When we were at Air One that day. You definitely told me about them. I didn't follow through. Yeah. I'm great at it. Yeah.

Cause well, I was like, I was telling you to write every day, but I was also getting the impression. I was like, that's not it. Like you're not wired that way. Like you're, I don't know if it's ADD, but you're not a guy who like sits down and is going to bang out a book. Like you're too busy. You're doing a million different things. You're a people person. And so I was like, listen, you should get some help. There's people that do this. You should check these guys out. They could help you kind of realize this vision.

You did. I didn't follow through. And it also seemed like some sort of pie in the sky. Like, for whatever reason, her telling me she had just heard about them on a podcast and I got this feeling in my gut, and I literally just Googled it on my phone, emailed them, called them. I wanted to make sure that I got contact with them immediately, and I did.

And then I got invited to, Rick Rubin invited us to a barbecue, which I was thrilled about, because it was at his cool studio, and there was some awesome band there. And I was sitting at the barbecue and I went into that place of insecurity like, oh, man, I just make juices. I don't belong here. And this other guy sat down right next to me, really cool guy, really sweet, didn't take up a whole lot of space i think like i do sometimes he just was like confident but sweet and and we started talking and he said what many people said like oh well you should write a book and i'm like yeah i know i've heard that a million times

but it's like impossible and he's like no it's not you should just write a book i'm like you say that like it's nothing and he's like well i've written you know seven books and blah blah blah and i'm like you have and he goes yeah and i'm like what's your that like it's nothing. And he's like, well, I've written, you know, seven books and blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, you have? And he goes, yeah. And I'm like, what's your name? He told me his name. His name is Neil. And I said, what's your last name?

And he said, Strauss. And I remembered the name, but I didn't know who Neil Strauss was. So he was so kind. And he said, you know, here, take my number. And here's my email. If you need any help, just, you know. So it was like. That was so cool of him.

Like, little did you know, he's this massive New that was so cool of him. Like little, did you know, he's this massive New York times bestseller. I had no idea. Right. So two weeks earlier, I sat with you, you had written the book that's now in all these different languages that I'd given to all these cool people that had inspired me. I'd read it three times that took place. Then the girl telling me what you told me about book in the box. And then Neil saying, you know, you should write a book and here's my number. And then I went home and I Googled him and I realized I owned – not only did I own every book that he's ever written, I think, except for one, which he used a different name maybe.

But I owned multiple copies of his books. And I'm like, oh,, I gotta, I gotta do this. And I just, if, if, if I don't listen to the universe now, I'm never going to listen to the universe or God or whatever you want to call it. And so that's a crazy amount of synchronicity flowing in your direction. And if you're not paying attention, you're just checked out. Yeah. And so, and so the dudes from book in the box got a hold of me, and then it just literally became like a blur. Because you and I, I mean, that wasn't that long ago that we met there. And that barbecue was maybe five months ago.

And these dudes just like, you've got a story. It's going to help a lot of people. We love it. We're going to help you. We're going to get you on podcasts. We're going to do whatever we can do for you. We really believe in you. It's going to help a lot of people. We love it. We're going to help you. We're going to get you on podcasts. We're going to do whatever we can do for you. We really believe in you. Let's get started. I gave him a credit card, I think over the phone. And then the process began like the next couple of days. And it was just like a whirlwind, a flurry of activity. And the next

thing I know, they sent me a book. It was a book. I'm like, well, it wasn't that easy. Right. I mean, you had to, there was a lot of, cause we had some, we had some conversations. There was a lot of, you know, you had to get involved in the writing and the, you know, to make sure that it was crafted the way that. Oh yeah. Yeah.

No, it wasn't. It wasn't like it is delivered. No, no, no. It wasn't. No, it wasn't that book. It was, but it was a book. No, it wasn't that book. It was – but it was a book. I mean it was – after interviewing me incessantly, they handed me – maybe I shouldn't call it a book. They handed me a manuscript, a 200-page manuscript. That having something tangible in my hands that I could look at, that I could see. And then I was like, and it read from beginning

to end. It didn't read quite how I would have put some of the stories. And then some of the stories was like amazing. So I got ahold of Neil and he did not take my emotions or my feelings into consideration. He just literally, literally took pen to paper and, you know, cross stuff off and, and wrote notes and met with us three different times. I talked to you a bunch of times, uh, sat with Haley, you know, every night for hours on end. And, um, we took that manuscript, that 200 page manuscript, and we turned it into a 240 page book, which, um, which I then gave back to a few other people, Neil and another, uh, really incredible guy named, you know, Walter Kern. He's a really, really screenwriter. Yeah. Yeah. Is he an author or screenwriter? Yeah. He, I think he wrote like

up in the air or whatever. Oh, do you write the book or the script? Yeah, he wrote the book. Interesting. He may have wrote the script too. But he's just a really cool guy and he read it and he loved it. And so they asked me if I had any pictures. I sent them the mug shots and the pictures and they came up with the idea to use that picture on the front cover. And I was like horrified because, you know, like everyone else on Instagram and Facebook or whatever, I'm an egomaniac and I want to look good. Like, whoa, whoa, whoa, guys, guys, there's pictures of me with no shirt on where I'm, you know, tan and

muscular and like, I want to look like Rich Roll on Finding Ultra. And they're like, but it's not going to have the same impact. You need to show people what happened. And man, I looked at that picture, the way that they use the writing, and I just thought, my God, they're right. They're really – they're right. I need to just do the opposite of what everyone's doing right now. Cause everyone's putting the filters and the enhancement, the light, and they're making themselves look like a Kardashian or like a Brad Pitt or whatever. And I got to just show really what I was and what happened.

So I had Tucker Max on the podcast must've been about a year ago, I think. And I think right after we had that conversation, he was heading over either that day or the next day to go meet with you about the book. We didn't say, book in a box is Tucker's company. And he kind of, in that conversation, laid out, here's how it works. Here's my vision for the company.

We've already done a number of books. We're working with Khalil. And as he laid it out, it was, you know, we get these amazing writers that we hire on contract. We then interview the author and get the whole story. And he kind of went step by step through the whole thing. And so I'm gathering from this that this was a successful experience for you.

Like it worked out kind of the way that you wanted it to work out. It was amazing. And the book never would have happened without it. Yeah, you were never going to sit down and – Never. It wasn't going to be that way for you. No. I feel like I'm a writer, like I want to write, you know, like it wouldn't be for me.

But for someone like you or somebody who's busy, who has an amazing story, but just is never going to take six months off to write a book, I think it's a great solution. I think for anybody, I don't even think it's so much about writing a book. I mean, I really, in my heart, hope and believe that this book is going to help people. And that's definitely the motivation behind it. I wanted to get my story out there because I think it's a powerful testament to the grace of God and to what recovery can do for people. But just the catharsis that took place, just to get all of those stories out of my head, when I did the second and the final read-through

of that book, I cried. I cried. I was like, my God, I can't believe that happened. I cannot, like, I can't believe, like, I was reading today and I was getting all choked up. One of my, not one of my, my best friend in the world, Teddy Papenhagen, I write about him in the book. His mother, you know, my parents didn't want me when I was a kid or they didn't love me or whatever the story, however the story goes. And his mom, she let me stay the whole summer over there every summer and she let me stay every weekend over there during the school year. And she just was the most incredible woman ever. And I was reading the book this morning.

There's a story about Teddy and me and Teddy and they're getting drunk. Teddy is like a great guy and I was like the bad guy. He went to college and I went to jail. But anyway, so I was reading about the country club where we grew up at and some of the stuff that happened and he texts me, she's gone. And he meant his mom had passed because he had texted me last night

that she was real sick and she wasn't responding. And man, I just, I, uh, I just started crying. I just thought, my God, like here, you know, here is this woman who to took this strange kid and just like, let him essentially move in. And she raised me like I was one of her own. And she's just, Dolores was the most amazing woman ever. And, and thank God she was there for me. Thank God I got some love and some nurturing as a child growing up. And, uh, and there was a lot of other people like that who, um, it wasn't all bad. There was other people that, you know, kind of helped me along the way.

This woman, Debbie, who took me in later, another guy named Gus, who was like a father figure to me. And I talk a lot about that in the book, but, um, the, the point is this, I wanted people to know that cause I would read these books about these super successful people and they had done these really cool things. And I'm like, yeah, but what about people like me that you're like, for the most part, they're just, you know, not, not smart, not educated and really kind of born to lose. I mean, I had everything against me and, uh, and no type of nothing really real to communicate, to, to, to contribute. So what do you do? And I want people out there to know that no matter where you are in your life, that you can change. That was the whole point. That was the inspiration behind this book.

You can change and you can do amazing things. And you know, I, I'm unemployable. You give me a job. I'm fired within 90 days. I can't keep my mouth shut. I'm inappropriate. I swear. I say stuff. I'm not supposed to say I have no filter. I, I cannot, you cannot give me a job that I won't mess up. However, I employ over 150 kids today and they love it. They love their job. You go into my place, you've seen how happy they are. It's like an Abercrombie and Fitch catalog, you know, like the most beautiful, you know, teenagers you're ever going to see, you know, making smoothies.

And they're all happy to be there. You know, they're all having a good time. They're happy. They're fit. And I think, you know, I mean, look, we're talking about Malibu, California, Calabasas. I mean, this is where all the beautiful people live. So they have beautiful children. And, you know, the beautiful children end up getting a job at a smoothie bar instead of, I don't know, working at a clothing store or whatever because it's a little bit more rewarding, I think, to be around the energy of the fruits and the vegetables and all that.

And they are beautiful, and I don't want to take anything away from that. But more importantly, they're happy. They're happy to serve. These kids are brilliant and beautiful and happy. And I provide jobs for 150 of them. And I take care of my mom financially. I did some cool stuff for my dad, you know, a few years ago as well. But for the most part, like I take care of my mom financially and that's the most incredible thing ever. 10, 11, 11 years ago, I was newly sober and, uh, I was at Marmalade Cafe and I got a phone call from my mom.

She sounded terrible. I'd never heard her sound so bad. And she said that she had cancer and I didn't have money to go visit her and I didn't have money to help her. And my mother was living in this place called Kenwood Gardens, which is you and I would consider it a housing project. It's like sort of one step below a housing project. And, um, and what was I going to do today to, to know that she is living in a beautiful house and there's nothing in the world that she wants that I won't buy her. It's the most incredible thing ever. So for people who are struggling with weight, for people who are struggling with depression, for people who are struggling from addiction, alcoholism, whatever you want to call it, whatever it is that you're

suffering from, you can change. And you can change in such a profound way that within a short period of time, you won't even recognize yourself anymore. And that really, as we're talking and I'm looking at you and I keep glancing down at the cover of that book of me with scabs on my face at 109 pounds. And I, I, I feel the power and the strength inside of me now from sobriety, from health, from wellness, from good deeds, from esteemable acts. If I can do it, anybody can do it. If I can do it, anybody can do it. And that is the message that I want to get out there. You know, your listeners are, they're athletes and they're vegans and they're awesome and they're good parents and they're good,

good kids. And, you know, I'm not like your listeners. I don't know about that. I mean, I think that there are a lot of people that listen, and I know this because I get hundreds of emails. There are a lot of people out there that are living basically ordinary lives who are struggling with the day-to-day kind of stuff and people that are feeling stuck in their lives. And, you know, they're not shooting speedballs necessarily, but there's a lot of people that are still stuck in the throes of addiction, people stuck in jobs they don't like, people who are feeling unfulfilled in their life. And I think that there is nothing more powerful than the testimony of somebody who's been able to change. And the difference between what you're doing, what I would characterize your book, your life story, and your extraordinary arc as aspirational as opposed to inspirational.

Because you are a guy that so many people can relate to. You know, you're not Michael Jordan, somebody who's done something that most people can't connect with emotionally. They can be inspired by somebody like that, but they can't, there's not an emotional in so that they can model their life after that, right? And I think your story is incredibly potent because I think there's so much humanity in it

and people can connect with that. And that doesn't mean that they have to live on Skid row, but they can say, you know what, this guy is coming from a place that I can connect with, that I can relate to. And his change is so extraordinary and dramatic. If he can do that, then I need to reevaluate how I'm living my life or I can extract from your story some principles and tools that I can incorporate into my life to start to make change. And I think the polarity between the picture on the cover of this book and the person that's sitting across from me right now is so dramatic. But the truth is, look, there'll be a neatly packaged narrative around this that makes it sound like it was something that happened very quickly. Like how know, like how many years ago was this? And how many 14 years? Yeah. And how many

millions of tiny decisions did you make every single day to get from that guy to the guy that you are now? It's it's the stuff you do every day. It's the tiny little things that you were talking about, like picking up the garbage on the street or taking that $1 and giving it to somebody else and taking that call to talk to that guy that you don't really feel like you have time to do. Like that is where the change takes place. Or how about just don't be a dick? Well, don't being, yeah,

but how do you not be a dick if you're a dick? You do that by taking contrary action and doing those little things. Right, like don't be mean, don't, don't be mean. Don't be a dick. Don't, don't, uh, you know, if you're driving in the fast lane and it's your right, you know, to drive 40 or whatever in the fast lane, but like, how about don't do that? You know, if you're driving slower than everybody else and you see people are passing you get

over, you know, if, if someone is, is waiting on you in a restaurant and there everybody else and you see people are passing you get over, you know, if, if someone is, is waiting on you in a restaurant and there's, and you can clearly see that they're struggling, how about instead of like really laying into them and being nasty, how about tip them a hundred percent, you know, or, or, or, or, or whatever it is. I mean, I, I, I do stuff now and I, and I don't, and I don't like to talk about it because I think it takes away from the magic, but I just, I just do, I just do stuff sometimes like crazy, like it's not philanthropy because that makes it sound fancy. I mean, I am involved with a couple of charities, but like, I'm just going to go ahead and say it because it's relevant to, to what we're talking about right now, but like, I like to sometimes,

if I see people in a restaurant and they're just like a nice couple or like maybe their kids are like kind of driving them nuts or whatever, or sometimes I'll even overhear people talking about prices on the menu or whatever. I will very discreetly as I'm leaving or as I'm going to the bathroom or whatever, I will grab their waiter or their waitress and I will say to them, I want you to put their meal on my tab and do me a favor. Do not under any circumstances tell them or I'm going to get really upset. And at the end of the meal, you simply say that the meal is taken care of and to have a good night. And please put 20% on there for yourself. The look on the waiter or the waitress's face, you can't imagine, but the best part is not the look on the waiter or the waitress's face. The best part is when I'm halfway home and I get that feeling inside my stomach. And I know that I have just profoundly changed the course of someone's evening.

That stuff is magic. There is no fancy, silly wallet that's hand-painted in Paris or, you know, Lululemon jacket or whatever. None of this stuff means shit, but an act like that, an act of random kindness like that is the stuff that makes me high now. And I try to do as much of that as I can. You don't want to be a lunatic. You don't want to go broke trying to help out strangers that don't know you're helping them out or whatever. But I mean, look, I work real hard. I sold a part of my company for what I considered a small fortune. And I get to do stuff like that today. And it feels incredible. And then back to what we were talking about, like the people that are sort of struggling and they're in a relationship that they don't want to be in or whatever. If you're in a relationship and you don't want to be in it, then get out. If you live somewhere that you don't like, move. If there is a job that you are working that that is sucking the life out of you, sucking the soul out of you, quit and go get another job. And I don't mean to sound cavalier and like, oh yeah, it's so easy for him because now he's got a bunch of money or whatever. It wasn't easy for me. It was incredibly challenging for me, but I know so

many people that are in relationships that they don't want to be in. What is that doing for you? What is that doing for the other person? It's not about possession. It's about love. You know, I just ended a nine year relationship. I don't even know if you know that. No, I didn't know that. Yeah. I just ended a nine year relationship with the greatest human being on the planet. The literally the greatest human being on the planet. You know, her, she is so incredibly beautiful and so incredibly altruistic and amazing and generous and wonderful. But the reality is, is after working together for so many years,

we just weren't boyfriend and girlfriend, husband and wife, whatever you want to call it. We just weren't that anymore. We're amazing business partners and best friends, but we were just fighting and fighting and fighting and fighting. And not bad, not like going crazy like my mom and dad used to, but we just weren't getting along. And the intimacy wasn't there anymore. Here's this beautiful girl that deserves to be adored. And here am I, like we're battling it out in the boardroom during the day. And then I'm coming home at night and I'm, you know, you can't see me if you're listening.

home at night and I'm, you know, you can't see me if you're listening, but I'm crossing my arms and I'm scooting away from her on the sofa because I don't want to, you know, be intimate with somebody who I'm building an empire with and it sucks. And it was painful. It was the scariest decision I've ever made in my life. She is so happy now and I am so happy and our friendship is intact. And instead of being a scumbag and self-sabotaging the relationship, instead of being a scumbag and going and having affairs and doing all that stuff, I sat her down. I said, I love you more than anybody on this planet, but this isn't working anymore for either of us. And you know that, and I love you dearly and I will lay down and die for you. I'll do anything for you. But what I won't do is stay in a relationship with you

that doesn't serve you and I anymore because you deserve better. And you know what? I deserve better too. And she said? She cried. She went in the other room and she cried. And the next day she said,

are you going to move out or am I? And I said, of course you're not going to move out. You're not going to do anything. You're going to keep everything. You're going to stay. I'm going to go through the arduous task of finding a place, furnishing it's been about two and a half months now. And I know it's so early and it's still a little bit raw and premature for me to be gloating about how amazing that was. But there, there may be challenges further down the road. Maybe she's going to start dating.

She will start dating some incredible guy at some point. Maybe she is already, but we're not going to throw that in one another's face. We're going to be respectful. And, um, you know, we watched the debates together the other night and laughed our asses off.

We're going to jump on a plane, I think, Wednesday, and we're going to go just take a nice little trip. You're still going to go on vacation with her. I am. Wow. That's unique. I get to go on vacation with her because I wasn't a scumbag because I, I wasn't abusive. I didn't self-sabotage. I didn't go have affairs.

I was honest and transparent. And I said, I love you more than anything. And I even said the next day, like, do you feel like we're boyfriend and girlfriend? Because if you do like it's news to me and, and she knew, she knew I was telling the truth. So conscious uncoupling, conscious uncoupling, conscious uncoupling, conscious quitting a job that you don't, that you don't like anymore or going and getting another job and then quitting that job maybe is probably better advice. And I probably shouldn't be giving anybody advice because I made such a mess of my own life, but I don't like when I see people stuck and stagnant and suffocating because life is

so brief and most people like me really feel like this is dress rehearsal. Yeah. It is the pernicious condition though, that I think it afflicts so many people, you know, and it's the devil, you know, and I think we live in a fear-based society and it's very frightening and scary to step outside, you know, your reality and shake up your routine and do something different and not know where that's going to lead. You know, and I think that's where the faith part comes in. And that's what you learn in recovery. You learn to trust that there is a safety net, that if you are really doing the inside work to connect with who you really are and you step into a place of trying to express that authentically, there's a trust that comes in that you will be taken care of. That's what I learned. That's what I learned in recovery. And that has never let me down.

It's terrifying. And it is not for the weak at heart by any stretch of the imagination. And I don't mean to be pithy about it either. And I'm not going to say you should quit your job. I understand that things are complicated and it's difficult, but I think you owe it to yourself to really do that interior work and begin to express whatever is inside of you that you feel is underexpressed as honestly as you can. And with compassion when other people are involved. And when you do that, you end up in situations like this, like you just explained. Yeah, and move forward with faith and live a good life. And if you're living in a place that's too expensive, then move to a place that's more affordable. I mean, there's like practical little things that people can do that they can enhance the quality of their life. And, um, and most people just don't do them because as you said, they're comfortable in the knowing of what they're in versus the unknowing. And, um, I was terrified to make many of the decisions that I

made over the last 12 and a half years. And some of them were made for me. I had a good job working at this rehab in Malibu and they gave me medical insurance and dental insurance. And I really kind of thought that I'd figured life out and they fired me. And it was so scary. And I'm like, oh my God, what am I going to do? And what am I going to do? I'm going to get up. I'm going to put my clothes on. I'm going to brush my teeth. I'm going to move forward with certainty. I'm going to move forward with faith because God, the universe, whatever it is you want to say, is always going to take care of you. And if you really believe that, then it's just your reality. And I also think that it requires breaking out of this mindset where you're focused on where is mine?

When am I going to get mine? Where is mine? He where is mine? When am I going to get mine? Where is mine? He's got that. When am I going to get that? And what you described previously with these acts of altruism, what's behind that at its core is a perspective on your life that is focused on service and giving. and giving. And when I think you're in the mindset and in the act of being focused on giving rather than receiving, if that's your default modality, or you can kind of act as if until you can get to a place where that becomes a habit, that will change your life. Absolutely. You know, it's changed my life. And I've seen you do these things. And I know that that is,

I think it is your default now, like you're a very gracious person and a very giving person. And I think that there's a weird intangible spiritual equation that when you are that type of person, in a karmic sense, your life will be – you will lead a full life. And it doesn't mean you're going to – you will lead a life where you will feel good about yourself and that self-esteem will spill into every aspect of your life. And it's inarguable that that will improve your life. Absolutely. And it's about the power of belief and it goes back to all of that, you know, that we are the author of our book, I guess pun intended. But, I mean, we really are. are the author of our book, I guess, pun intended, but I mean, we really are. I mean,

this is going to sound, well, no, maybe it won't sound crazy because you have like a bunch of athletes in your audience. But like, if you want to look at an even cooler or better example of someone who was nothing, who is now in his world, the king, look at that video of Conor McGregor in 2008, when he's this skinny, pasty dude in Ireland, you know, saying, I'm going to be the best in the world. I'm, and they literally do a timeline of every time he was interviewed, he's like, I'm going to be in the UFC. And then he's in the UFC. And then he's like, I'm going to, you know, beat this guy and I'm going to do it in the first round. And then he beats him. And then they go and timeline to, you know, I was at that fight. Right. I know. A 10 second fight. 13 seconds.

13. Yeah. And I bet on him. I bet big. And I knew he was going to win. And everyone's like, you're crazy. I was with people that know how to bet. And they're like, you're out of your mind. The dude, that other guy is a much better fighter. And I'm like, you're crazy. I was with people that know how to bet. And they're like, you're out of your mind. Dude, that other guy is a much better fighter. And I'm like, you are absolutely right.

But heart is going to trump skill. If you said to Conor McGregor, you can win and die or you can lose and live to be 100 and be rich, he's going to win and die. Because that's just who he is. And he also believed that he was going to beat Aldo. Aldo's a better fighter. I mean, he just is sorry, but McGregor believes that McGregor is a better fighter. And to watch that video, it's, it's, it's bouncing around on Facebook right now. In fact, I think I just posted it. I hope I just posted it on my trip. And, uh, tripping? But it's incredible. If you believe that you're going to have a good life, if you believe that you deserve good things, then most of the time you do. The trick is getting to that place of belief.

So pray. You were saying earlier, oh, I get uncomfortable. I was sort of praising you and you're like, yeah, that makes me really uncomfortable. And then you said some nice things about me and my book. And I started to sense myself feeling uncomfortable with that because I have that core thing. That as an alcoholic, I'm like, when are they going to find out that I don't know what I'm doing and it's all a big joke and I'm a fraud and all that kind of stuff. It's still there. That's a battle that I continue to wage. It's never going to go away. That little thing is never going to go away.

But moments like I described with the couple – that was actually at Hugo's. No, no, no. Actually, I did it at another place recently. But then there's moments like that where you feel like you're literally a part of everything. You're a part of the human race. You're a part of everything. There are – one of my best friends who's no longer with us, he's one of the guys I was talking about that I ran around with, you know, back then. He was my – one of my running buddies

back then. And he's gone. He had some complications with the heart attack and then some, he had a heart transplant and it just ultimately didn't end up working out. Um, but, uh, four or five months ago, his mom and dad wanted to come see me and they were talking to me and they're like, Oh yeah, something, something, our niece. And I wasn't putting two and two together. And then, so here's the niece. She's 16, she's 17, whatever. And they said, she loves this place. She really wants a job. I'm like, really? And she's like, yeah, I really, I really, I really like this place. I really want to work here. And I'm like,

wait a second. Are you, are you Greg's daughter? And she goes, yeah. And as I asked her, I could see my best friend who's no longer with, I could see him in her. And I'm like, oh my God, your, your dad was like one of my best friends. And she's like, he was. And I said, yeah. And I'm like, hang on. I ran inside. I grabbed cash. I said, cash, get her the paperwork. We're hiring her right now. And he's like, you don't want to be interviewer. I'm like, hang on. I ran inside. I grabbed Cash. I said, Cash, get her the paperwork. We're hiring her right now. And he's like, you don't want to be an interviewer? I'm like, no, I want you to hire her right now. And I go into work, you know, three, four days out of seven and I see her and we're building this relationship. And she'll sometimes just come up to me and say, can you tell me about my dad?

Like, you know, this girl's dad's been gone for years now and she misses him. And I get to tell her these amazing stories about her dad. And again, going back to feeling the opposite of when you were saying like, oh, you're a good guy and you do nice things for people. That makes me cringe. But in those moments when I'm telling her stories about her dad, I feel like a million dollars. I feel like I'm part of the human race. Yeah. And that's the goal is to do as much.

I really feel rich. I feel like Conor McGregor in a sense right now. I feel like I'm the king of my world that I'm living in. And I really feel like it's going to get better and better. I feel like I'm going to open more and more of these stores. I feel like this book is going to reach a lot of people. I really feel like there's some amazing things that are coming, you know, down the road. And that's only going to give me more opportunity, more opportunities to do more amazing things for people. Because at the end of the day, like, that's all that matters. Yeah. What do you think when it seems like every couple years, somebody comes around, who proclaims that everything you ever heard about addiction is wrong. And 12 step is outdated technology. And here's the new way that we can cure people of addiction. They don't even classify it as a disease.

It seems like there's sort of a cycle where somebody like that or a group of people or a new approach or mindset comes along. And then as somebody who is a 12-step success story, how do you kind of feel that when people say to you, oh, like, why do you do that? You know, shouldn't you go over here and solve your problem this way or whatnot? Like, how do you process that and what is your perspective on that? You know, I don't know. And I get a lot of that because I'm in, like, the health food world or whatever. People talk to me all the time about ayahuasca. Well, that was one, I wanted to talk about that as well, because that comes up on the podcast a lot. And it seems to be having a moment right now, um, where it's all about the

plant medicine and we can, you know, sort of resolve addiction issues through ayahuasca. I had Gabor Mate on the podcast. He was a big proponent of ayahuasca and has done some amazing work in the field of addiction. He's helped a lot of people. His book, In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts, is amazing. I recommend everybody read it. And I had an incredible conversation with him. And he was very helpful to me personally. And then after the podcast, he wanted to talk to me about ayahuasca. And it just, I can't go there. if you tell an addict or an alcoholic that the solution to his addiction problem resides in a drug, like that's not only the best news ever, that's dangerous territory. That scares me. Yeah. And I know people that have done ayahuasca and

they're better and, and, and a lot of them are better for it. So I'm not, I'm not like dismissing it. I don't want to be closed-minded about it. Well, first of all, I'm 1,000% confident that there are millions of people out there that are much, much smarter than me and know a lot more than me. And ibogaine and ayahuasca and plant medicine and licking the frogs. I mean there's all kinds of stuff that people are doing and they're doing it with a lot of success. I mean there's all kinds of stuff that people are doing and they're doing it with a lot of success. There's people that are using psilocybin and mushrooms at I think venerable like Stanford and become more spiritual, there's a very good chance I'm going to be blowing homeless guys for crack within 36 hours, to put it bluntly. It ain't worth it.

I don't care. I'm sure it's phenomenal. I'm sure that I could commune with the angels, but you know what? I can go to the Self-Realization Fellowship and shut my mouth and shut my eyes for five minutes and count my breaths, and I can commune with the angels as well. And I can go to a Catholic church and talk to a priest, which I've done several times in the last 12 years. I can do a little confession, which would be sort of like part of the 12-step thing, and I can feel closer to God. I can go to the Hare Krishna temple on Sunday, and I can eat that food that they've been praying and chanting and blessing on for the last 24 hours, and I can jump around with them and I can chant Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna over and

over again. And I can feel spiritually elated and, and, and blissful. And I can go and, and very poorly surf a wave and feel just as high as I've ever been. So, um, I don't, you know, I'm sure all those dudes and some of them are so smart. I listened to a lot of podcasts. Some of those guys are so smart and I'm confident that they have access to some amazing stuff. Maybe that'll be for the next generation. For me, for my peer group, for the dudes that I run around with and I still go to 12-step meetings with, it ain't for us. It's just not. Will I change my mind someday? Maybe. I don't know. I kind of feel like right now you would probably have to put a gun to my head and then I'd probably be stoked and be like, right on, a free lapse. But for me, for me, there was a time when drugs and alcohol gave me a reprieve

from my sadness, my mental illness, my depression, my anxiety, my suicidal ideation. There was a time when drugs and alcohol gave me a reprieve from all of that. That time ended June 18th, 2003. And, and I'm just, you know – I'm not going to mess with it. I'm sure that there's dudes that you can introduce me to that will go outside and change my motor a little bit to run on Doritos or something. Not interested. My car – I go to the gas station. I fill it up. It drives just fine.

I take it to the mechanic. The mechanic fixes it just fine. The lease will be up. I'll get another car. Why mess with what's working? Yeah, it's working. I drive a Volvo. I'm going to drive a Volvo again. I drove a Volvo before that. I'm pretty practical on that stuff. And I know also that I have an incredibly addictive personality. And speaking of Doritos, if you had a bag of Doritos in here, we, you know, we may have to wrestle over them because I'm going to eat them and I'm not going to eat one or two. I'm going to eat the bag until it's empty, until I have a stomach ache and all of those

horrible poisonous chemicals are going to give me night terrors and nightmares, you know, but again, I don't know, probably wouldn't stop me from eating a bag of Doritos. So I'm not into that stuff. Yeah, it is interesting, but it comes up a lot. And I've, I've just noticed that even in the past, you know, six or eight months, like it's, it's a topic of, of continual conversation. And I'm always interested in everybody's perspective of it in it. And I, you know, I share, I share your, your, I share your point of view. Like, I'm not, I'm not going to do it. I'm not interested in doing it.

And I'm not interested in somebody who is proclaimingca, but a solution to addiction or perhaps to cravings that does not also embrace the spiritual principles that have made me whole. Yeah, look, the bottom line is, and maybe I'm going to get in trouble for saying this because it is one of the principles that's in a particular 12-step program. But in reality, that principle was taken from the Bible, and it is this. Clean house, trust God, help others. That's it? That's it. I think that's a good place to end it, man. Right on.

I'm super proud of you for writing this book, man. Thank you. It's quite an accomplishment. And normally I would have read it before the podcast, but you just gave me the copy today because it wasn't even available until today. I just got it today. Right. So today is December 21st. It is live, December 22nd.

I'm going to try to put this podcast up right away. And I love you, man. I love you. I'm just over the moon that you got this done, and I couldn't be happier for all your success with Sun Life. I see how you interact with your customers and your employees, and it's a beautiful thing, man. Thank you. And I see it only growing.

So live long and prosper. Thank you so much. All right, dude. So if people want to check out Khalil, the first thing to do is go to Amazon and pick up I Forgot to Die, preferably by using the Amazon banner at richroll.com first,

so we both win. Yes. And you're back on Facebook, dude. How many, you were off for two years. Oh, he's got a book coming out. He's back on Facebook. Well, yeah, I'm on Facebook to promote my book and nothing else. And, and, and, you know, uh, in the two years of being off, my life has taken off in such a profound way. And, and here's a reality. I'm back on Facebook now. And at five o'clock in the morning, I'm watching cat videos, right? I'm watching, you know, propaganda, political, like what it's, it's Facebook, Instagram, all that stuff. I have never, I have never, with the exception of something called the yoga wheel,

I think it's called, which like fixed my lower back problems. I saw it on Instagram and I ordered it. I'm like, God, I'm an idiot. I'm spending a hundred dollars on a piece of plastic. Well, the piece of plastic fixed my back, but aside from the yoga wheel and maybe, you know, learning about some books or learning about some documentaries, I've seen some great documentaries advertised on Facebook. But for the most part, I spend three hours a day to being a voyeur. Is that what it's called? I like go and look at what people have been doing, and I'm looking at cat videos, and I'm being serious and literal.

Like if there's a cat video, I'm all over it. I can't get away. I'm obsessed with cat videos. And what in God's name, how is that going to enhance my life? It's not. I'm going to be on it for a little bit while longer. And then I'm going to get off like I did two years ago. And I made a promise to myself. I was going to pray more, meditate, whatever.

And I opened up a yoga studio in that time. I wrote a book in that time. I opened up two or three more stores in that time. And so I'm going to promote the book a little bit more and then I'm going to hire somebody to do the fan page so I can stay connected with people. And I'm not – I hope I'm not offending anybody, but like I'm getting back off. I'm going to get off it because I don't have the discipline. I'm sure you do and I'm sure a bunch of other people i don't i mean i live my life online you know and so i justify it as this is part of you know what i do for to make a living you know but that doesn't

mean that i'm not watching cat videos more than i should you know what i mean i i'm on there for business reasons but but i enjoy it too and i'm probably on it way more than I should be or need to be. And it becomes look for an alcoholic. It's, it's like, it's, it's your little rush, you know, like, Ooh, you know, check the feed what's going on. And it's like, for anybody, you know, it's not a healthy thing. So I've created rules around it. I want to make you a green juice.

I want your beautiful wife to come in and give me a kiss on the cheek and tell me that she's proud of me. I want to see your kids and I want to make wife to come in and give me a kiss on the cheek and tell me that she's proud of me. I want to see your kids and I want to make them a smoothie. Like, I don't I don't want to look at cat videos. All right. I'll make some juice. Don't do it, man. I'm going to get off.

But for those that are on Instagram at Khalil Rafati on Instagram, right? No, I'm private on Instagram. Oh, you are. Yeah. On Instagram, it's No, I'm private on Instagram. Oh, you are? Yeah, on Instagram, it's I Forgot to Die book. And well, Sun Life Organics. Sun Life Organics.

Follow Sun Life Organics. Yeah, Sun Life Organics is awesome. And I don't know. I mean, some people request me on Instagram at Khalil Rafati, but unless I can look at your thing and know that you're not some weird person

that's going to stalk me and – I don't know. The whole thing like creeps me out. All right. So don't follow Khalil Rafati on Instagram. Follow Sun Life Organics. Do whatever you want. Do whatever makes you happy. And thank you so much for listening to this. And, uh, and yeah, if, if, uh, if something is not serving you,

put it down. Simple as that. Yeah. Love you, man. Love you too, buddy. We did it. We did it. You feel all right. I feel amazing. It was good, right? Yeah. I'm glowing. All right, cool. I really do love that guy. I hope you guys enjoyed that. And I greatly appreciate Khalil dropping by and sharing more of his remarkable journey with us. Don't forget to stop by richroll.com to check out this week's show notes to take your edification and your entertainment, your infotainment to the next level. While you're at it, subscribe to my newsletter. No spam, just good stuff.

If you want access to the entire RRP catalog beyond the most recent 50 episodes, which is all you can find on iTunes, well, I've got an app for that and it's free. Just search Rich Roll in the App Store, it pops right up. It's only for iOS devices right now, but it's a great way to carry the entire of of the rrp in the palm of your hands for all your plant power and rrp swag and merch needs visit richroll.com we got nutrition products we got organic cotton t-shirts we got plant tech teas, all kinds of cool stuff. Keep sending in your questions for future Q and a podcast info at richroll.com. And what else? Uh, Oh yeah,

I got a couple of online courses at mindbodygreen.com. The ultimate guide to plant-based nutrition. That might be a good one. Starting off the new year, you want to get more plant powered. That's like three and a half hours of streaming video content on how to kind of dial up your plate and your kitchen. Really proud of it. Very affordably priced. The other one is called The Art of Living with Purpose, which is also very germane and relevant to this time of year because it's all about setting goals and the work that you have to do, particularly the personal inside work that is required in order to set

yourself on an optimal trajectory to take out an insurance policy towards really actualizing that goal that you're seeking in your life. So both are at mindbodygreen.com. Just click on video courses on the homepage and you can learn much more about both of those there. So thanks so much for supporting the show, for telling your friends, for sharing it on social media.

I appreciate you guys. I love you guys telling what you think about this kind of intro. I think it was kind of fun. It's a little bit easier, actually. Less stressful. I don't know. Send me a tweet.

Hit me up on Facebook. Leave a comment on the comment section at richroll.com. And that's it. All right, you guys, I'll see you back here. Whenever I see you back here, make it a great week. Really work on the visualization required to set yourself on the best trajectory for January. It's 2016, people. We're going to make some crazy shit happen this year. I love you guys. Peace, plants.