The Rich Roll Podcast - Idea Architect Douglas Abrams: Cultivating Joy, Collaborating With Spiritual Masters & Elevating Consciousness

Episode Date: February 18, 2017

Nobel Peace Prize Laureates His Holiness the Dalai Lama and Archbishop Desmond Tutu have both survived more than fifty years of exile. Both have endured the soul-crushing violence of oppression. And yet despite their hardships—or, as they would say, because of them—they are two of the most joyful people on the planet. How is this possible? And what can we learn from their example to cultivate more joy in the face of life's inevitable suffering? To answer this question, in 2015 Douglas Abrams united the two spiritual giants in Dharamsala, India on the occasion of the Dalai Lama's 80th birthday. During the course of what became a rare, five-day conversation on the nature of human happiness and suffering, the two Nobel Peace Prize recipients traded intimate stories, teased each other continually, and shared their spiritual practices. By the end of a week filled with laughter and punctuated with tears, these two global heroes had stared into the abyss and despair of our time and revealed how to live a life brimming with joy. A beautiful synthesis of this transcendent union, it's no surprise that Abrams' The Book of Joy* became an instant New York Times bestseller. It's a book that deeply humanizes an Archbishop who has never claimed sainthood and a Dalai Lama who considers himself a simple monk. It's a book that transports you deep within the intimate friendship that binds these two incredible souls. And it's a book that vividly probes the very nature of joy itself — the illusions that eclipse it, the obstacles that obscure it, the practices that cultivate it, and the pillars that sustain it. In addition to being a celebrated author, editor and literary agent, Doug is the founder and president of the creative book and media agency Idea Architects, where he works with true visionaries to create a wiser, healthier, and more just world. He is also the co-founder with Pam Omidyar and Bishop Desmond Tutu of HumanJourney.com, a public benefit company working to share life-changing and world-changing ideas. Doug has worked with Desmond Tutu as his co-writer and editor for over a decade, and before founding his own literary agency, he was a senior editor at HarperCollins and also served for nine years as the religion editor at the University of California Press. I wanted to know more about what my Stanford classmate learned spending so much intimate time with two of the planet's most conscious and revered spiritual leaders. What was his biggest takeaway? How did he synthesize their wisdom into such an extraordinary book? And what impact has the experience had on how he lives his life today? This conversation is the result. It's everything I was hoping for, and then some. I sincerely hope you enjoy the exchange. Peace + Plants, Rich

I think we so often feel like life happens to us and that we're victims of life. And I think one of the things that the Dalai Lama and Desmond Tutu talk about in the Book of Joy, one of the pillars of joy is perspective. You know, the ways in which we actually determine, you know, how we see our life. And that is one of our great freedoms. We often think of joy as a kind of fleeting emotional state, that it's something that kind of flitters and lands on your shoulder like a butterfly, and then it's gone when the meal is over or the song ends, you know,

and you're out of joy and suddenly you're back into the other human emotions in some way. But we really wanted to try to ask them, how do we turn it from a state into a trait? You know, how do we take it from an emotional state that comes and goes into a character trait, which is, I think, what you're talking about. These men exude this, they live this, you know, which is not to say that they men exude this, they live this, you know, which is not to say that they don't experience fear, anger, or sadness. It's just to say that they are able to cultivate through their joy practices and through this way of life that they articulate in the book, a way of being in joy more of their lives.

That's Doug Abrams, and this is The Rich Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey, everybody, what's going on? How are you? What is happening? My name is Rich Roll. I am your host. Welcome or welcome back to my podcast, the show where I have the good fortune, the privilege, the honor of going deep and going long form with some of the world's most compelling, most intriguing, most inspiring, positive paradigm breaking change makers all across the globe. I really appreciate you guys tuning in today. It means so much to me and I've got an amazing show for you today. So you guys remember the podcast I did two weeks ago with Dr. Rachel Abrams, the integrative medicine doctor? That was a really good one, right? Amazing.

Well, she is just one half of quite the interesting, compelling power couple. And this week, you're going to discover why. Because today, I share my conversation with Rachel's husband, who also happens to be, along with Rachel, my former Stanford classmate, the author, editor, and literary agent, Douglas Abrams. So who is Doug? Well, Doug is the founder and president of Idea Architects, ideaarchitects.com, which is a creative book and media agency where he works with true visionaries to create not only this incredibly impressive roster of New York Times bestselling books, but really, and more importantly, a wiser, healthier, and more just world. And he does that by leveraging the power of books, the power of media to catalyze the next stage of global

evolutionary culture. He's also the co-founder with Pam Omidyar and Bishop Desmond Tutu of humanjourney.com, which is a public benefit company working to share life-changing and world-changing ideas. So you can check that out online, humanjourney.com. But perhaps Doug is most well-known, at least lately, for his most recent, massively best-selling book entitled The Book of Joy, which is this, how do I describe it? It's a beautiful distillation, synthesis, and meditation on how to better cultivate joy in our lives. And it came out of this rare five-day conversation in 2015 that Doug created, he produced, he hosted, he curated between the Dalai Lama and his friend, Bishop Desmond Tutu, on the occasion of the Dalai Lama's 80th birthday at the Dalai Lama's residence in exile in Dharmasala, India.

Lama's residence in exile in Dharmasala, India. I got a lot more I want to say about Doug and the Book of Joy and cultivating joy, but... We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because, unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. by the people at recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs.

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of recording this, which is Sunday morning, February 19th, Julie and I got to spend some time with Doug and Rachel yesterday because Rachel and Doug, who live in Santa Cruz, were down in Los Angeles for a book event for Rachel's new book, Body Wise. And that was the first time that Julie had the opportunity to meet them. And it was beautiful. And that experience just reaffirmed to me what a remarkable human, a truly good human that Doug is. A guy who is just devoted to positively impacting the world with everything that he does and who he is. To raise consciousness with the work that he does, and somebody who has created

something really powerful and transcendent with this new book, The Book of Joy. We had a great conversation about all of these things. So this is me talking with Doug Abrams. So good to be sitting down with you. So great to be here with you. I got a twofer today because I spent time with your wife earlier today. She told me all the secrets about you.

Yeah, that's true. It's all true. And I guess I'll be sloppy seconds here for you. No, man. This is awesome. And it was really great. It was really great

to run into you at that wedding. As I said to Rachel, it's odd that at our age, I don't go to that many weddings anymore. Nobody's getting married anymore. You know what I mean? Like, all our friends are getting divorced, let alone a wedding of somebody that we went to college with, you know, that we went to school with.

So that was really cool. And to reconnect with you was really neat. And as I said to you at the wedding, your book had been sitting on my desk for quite some time because we have the same publisher. Right. And I had spoken to Anne at Avery, and she's like, you got to interview Doug. And I was like, yeah, this book's right up my alley. I can't wait to unpack this and get into it. And then I ran into you, but I didn't put the two together. I didn't realize that Douglas Abrams on the cover of the book was the same guy that I was schooling.

And so that was a revelation. That's cool. And it got me thinking about, like we, it's not like we were buds in college. Like I knew you kind of at arm's length and our social circles kind of butted up against each other. But I remember you,

I remember you as a, because you're very tall. So it's like, it's hard to miss. Yeah, you always see you coming into a room. But I remembered you as being somebody who is always very intellectually and artistically inclined. And if memory serves me, I remember that you were like writing plays. Is that true?

You were like a playwright, like as like, even as like a freshman, I think. So you start, because I know you came from like a literary family. Yeah. Right? And so I thought, this guy's going to be a writer. How badass is that? Everyone else wants to be doctors and lawyers and software engineers. But you had that idea of being a creative early on.

Yeah. I think I was cursed from a young age that growing up in a publishing family and there was, you know, my, my parents like, you know, kind of felt like anything in a book was holy. And so they would, you know, give me copies of the Bhagavad Gita or the Zohar or science or anything, you know, it was really, and I think I just realized that there's something about a book that can transport us into another person's consciousness in a very powerful way. And I wanted to do that, too. That's pretty cool because you could have easily just rebelled against your parents and gone in a completely different direction, right? So there was something about how you were brought up, you know, in that literary sensibility that stuck with you.

Well, it's interesting because I actually had dyslexia growing up. So, you know, and actually to this day, when I step into a bookstore, I break out into a cold sweat. And so it was not an easy direction to take. It was kind of my north face of Half Dome. And I think there was a real desire to rebel against it. And I think I did after we graduated from college, I think I did about 100 informational interviews to see what else I could do besides go into books and writing. I think I always had the desire to write. And actually I had a teacher in the eighth grade who said to me, you know, you can never be a writer, you're dyslexic. And there was a, I know it's like, you know,

kind of out of some kind of- At least you were diagnosed. Well, it's like out of some role doll movie, you know, or book, some kind of evil teacher who I don't think meant to be evil, but, and I just felt like, you know, I was going to show him. Uh, and, um, so there was some of that kind of, I'll show him. And then there was like, God, I can't really do what my parents are doing. You know, I got to try something else. And then I just fell back in love with books and I fell back in and I'd say, and, and more than

just the books, I think it's, you know, as we were saying, I think it's the ideas that books unleash. And ultimately, I don't see myself as just being in the book business. I see myself as being in the idea and story business. And it's about sharing with people, you know, life-changing, world-changing ideas and stories. Right. We were talking a little bit before the podcast about the mission statement behind idea architects and how that transcends just books or being a book agent or being a writer and really utilizing that as just one medium to sort of propagate culture shifting, you know, positive paradigm shifting ideas that can influence the trajectory of our planet. I'm shifting ideas that can influence the trajectory of our planet.

Yeah. I mean, it's elbowing the planet in the right direction. The vision of the company is creating a wiser, healthier, more just world. And I get to work with extraordinary visionaries like Desmond Tutu and the Dalai Lama, as well as amazing scientists, as well as triathletes like Mark Allen and people who are pushing the envelope of human possibility in some way. And we do books that are kind of extraordinary ideas or extraordinary stories that somehow unleash our potential in some way in the hope that we can help shift the culture in some positive ways. Right.

And I think what's cool too is, and we talked about this a little bit at the wedding, is that it's so much more than you being a book agent, right? Like you're really like, when I walked in here, you're sitting down with one of your writers. There's a whiteboard up there with all kinds of notes on it. Like you really roll up your sleeves and get into working with these creative types to try to help them hone their ideas and make them great as opposed to, all right, well, send me the manuscript and I'll see if I can sell it. Right. What turns us on, I think, is the kind of being culture workers, you know, taking ideas that are in the lab or in spiritual traditions or, you know, that people are and stories of extraordinary stories and helping to take that and think about how do we take the messenger and align that with the message and the culture. So how do we take that powerful idea or that extraordinary story

and how do we help it get to the culture in the most authentic, the most fascinating, and the most powerful way? Yeah, it's a beautiful thing, right? Yeah, it's really cool. So here you are sitting on top of this magical book that has done what only the rarest of books is able to do, like really penetrate culture at the deepest level. I mean, this book has exploded. Could you have foreseen this? I mean, this is like a phenomenon.

Well, it's really unbelievably moving, moving actually to hear how the book has impacted people. I mean, it's selling very well, which is very cool. As you know, as a book author, it's nice to know that people want to read it. Um, and you know, I just heard this incredible story yesterday about a woman who was dying and she was kind of deliberate about when she was dying and when she was leaving. And as her final gesture to all of her friends and family, she sent them a copy of the Book of Joy with an inscription in it. Wow. And it's just like, wow, like the impact that it seems to be having on people. And, you know, I mean, it was just an incredible privilege and opportunity to bring the Dalai Lama and Desmond Tutu together, to bring these extraordinary traditions together, these amazing human beings together, to see this incredible friendship.

And, you know, that's kind of like a comedy duo, you know, the incredible laughter and joy. And to have people get to experience that too. And I mean, one of the most wonderful things we hear about the book is that, you know, it's not just inspiring, it's like entertaining, like they're laughing and crying their way through the book. And that ultimately was, you know, that it was such a moving experience to be with them for that week. And it was like my responsibility, my dream, and my challenge to try to help share that with everybody else. Well, what's really, I think, striking and what makes the book kind of stand out initially, at least for me, is that you go into it thinking, here are these two luminaries, these two literally holier-than-thou people, right? And you're used to books on spirituality or books that are coming from a spiritual sensibility to kind of be – preaching is the wrong word – but coming from a place of I know and now I'm going to tell you. There's a lack of relatability there, I think, because there's that barrier between the way that we lead our lives and the way that these others lead their lives.

But what kind of spills out on every page of this book is the utter humanity of these two people who are human, in quotes, human beings, right? Right, right. humanity. And I think that allows you to emotionally connect with them through their friendship and the way that they interact with each other, which gives you, the reader, a sense that you're in that room with them and you can feel them as, you know, not as an other, but like yourself. I love hearing you say that because that was really our, at the core of what we were trying to do was not just to get their wisdom, but their humanity for humanity, for history, for posterity. And, you know, I think they're both so, you know, part of their spirituality and who they are is their amazing humility and that they're not

holier than thou. And I think at the same time, you know, when you are a spiritual leader like the Dalai Lama or Desmond Tutu, and you're kind of in a pulpit or you're giving a Dharma talk and, you know, your job is to, you know, bring it and, you know, to, you know, give the truth. And what was so fantastic about the dialogue and the week that we got to spend in Dharamsala is that in the presence of their friendship and each other, they were able to kind of, you know, open the kimono, so to speak, you know, and just be human with each other and be friends and laugh and tease each other mercilessly and just, you know, be, you know, buddies. And, you know, you know, I think the, the amazing thing, you know, we were talking about us being, you know, friends from college. And I think that, you know, world leaders don't get a lot of

time to just hang out with their, with their friends, right. They're being, you know, having to be great religious moral leaders. And so this was this amazing opportunity where they just got to, to be friends and to tease each other and have fun. And through that intimacy, you get a lens into their interior life that is rare and I think probably has not been that adequately exposed in the past. Like you really see these people as who they are and they get to talk about things because they're not on that pulpit.

They can talk about their fears and their anxieties and their joys and their pleasures and their anger, and all these things that we all share as human beings, which I think is just such a beautiful gift to be able to, you know, tap into that and to see that. So let's, you know, before we kind of unpack the book, it would be interesting to kind of hear how this whole thing came together. I mean, I know that your relationship with Desmond Tutu, you call him

Arch, right? Because you guys are bros. First of all, how did you get to know him? How did this whole project come about? Yeah, great question. So I have had the privilege of working with Archbishop Tutu and yeah, his, his, uh, you know, the folks in his life call him arch or father. Um, uh, he's again, really unpretentious and, you know, he doesn't want any genuflecting. He's just, uh, such an incredibly loving and wonderful human being. But, you know, my, I mean, to go back to our time in college, you know, the story actually begins from, you know, when we were in college and playing some small role in the anti-apartheid, uh, struggle and kind of protests of divestment that we're taking on. And, um, and, uh, just, he came to speak and he was this incredible towering kind of moral figure. And then when I left, um, Harper Collins, where I was a book editor,

I made up this list of the people I most wanted to work with in the world. And he was on the top of that list. And, um, I mean, there's a kind of fun story about how the universe conspired to put us together. Um, but long story short, um, I've been able to work with him for over a decade and help him with all of his various book projects and to become his literary agent. And so we were actually, when we were at his 80th birthday, five years ago, the Dalai Lama was supposed to come as the guest of honor. But because of China's buying minerals from South Africa, they leaned on South Africa. They wouldn't give the Dalai Lama a visa. So we really wanted to bring Arch to Dharamsala.

And kind of when the Dalai Lama was turning 80, you know, that was kind of a reciprocal gesture, if you will. But we were actually, the project itself hatched when we were at Archbishop Tutu's wife's birthday party. at Archbishop Tutu's wife's birthday party. I was there with another great friend of mine, Jim Doty, and a client who was the chairman of the Dalai Lama Foundation. And he was the one who actually said, what do you think about these two guys writing a book together? And I said, wow, that's a cool idea. That would be awesome. They were both on my list, by the way.

And I said, well. Where do you keep that list? It's actually in the laptop. And so I said, this is a great idea, but what would it be on? And we both paused for a second. We looked at each other and we said, joy. And it was really, here are two of the most joyous people on the planet who have gone through extraordinary hardship, but still are these kind of luminous, you know, ebullient people.

And so we were having sandwiches at Arch's office and I, you know, kind of turned over to Arch and said, hey, you want to write a book with the Dalai Lama? And he said, I'd do anything with that man. And so then we were kind of off and running to create the book. It's beautiful. In their exchanges in the book, you get the sense that these guys must have spent so much time together because the intimacy is so real and so deep, right? And then you realize they'd only actually been physically in each other's presence a handful of times, right? Yeah.

They'd only actually been physically in each other's presence like a handful of times, right? Yeah. So how does that strong of a bond transpire? Is it just because they're really the only two people like each other on the planet that they just know each other that well intuitively? Well, it's a great question, too. I think what Arch said was when we were quiet, we realized that our spirits were kindred. You know, so there's this way in which I think they just recognized in each other this, you know, both the depth that they have, but also this incredible playfulness. And they call each other their mischievous spiritual brother. And, you know, the first time they were together, they were kind of, you know, in a line,

ready to be paraded in the way that Nobel laureates are paraded. And because it was by age, I think. And so the Dalai Lama was behind Archbishop Tutu, and he started to strangle him, you know, like playfully. And Arch turns around and wags a finger at him and says, act like a holy man. The cameras are upon us. And I mean, it was just that I think there is that playfulness. They both have this incredible depth and moral courage and this incredible playfulness and life-filledness and humor. Right. life-filledness and humor. Right. Taking a step back, you know, what is it in your sort of personal journey that drew you towards these figures? Like, what is it in your kind of

personal mission or what is it that you were or are wrestling with that attracts you to these individuals? Well, so I think my kind of, you know, the book of joy for me in my life kind of originated growing up in a household that was kind of shadowed by the black dog of depression. And, you know, recognizing both in my own life and those I loved how, you know, how so much of our suffering occurs between our own ears, you know, and it happens in our own mind. And really wanting to know, you know, what is that? Why does that happen? How do we wrestle with that? How do we grapple with that? How do we deal with that? You know, there's, you know, there's poverty, there's violence, there are objective things that cause enormous suffering in our world. And then so much of our experience of life is how we respond to our life. And here is, you know, a man from South Africa who's faced unbelievable oppression and cruelty and violence and heartbreak.

And another from Tibet who has experienced, you know, exile. And as Arch said, you know, one of the worst things that could ever happen to somebody being turfed out of their country. And here they're able to, between their ears, manage to stay in this place that is not about depression and anxiety and despair, but really about a place of joy and generativity. So I think, you know, my, I mean, one way to kind of read my own experience and my own life and you know kind of you know one of my experiences as a young person growing up in manhattan in new york city was actually being kind of one leg over the balcony on the 20th floor of our apartment and really at the i think i was in the second grade and basically saying like wow do i really want to stay you know do i really want to um and i think that experience of just kind of

recognizing that my like i didn't have to like i got to choose something i got to decide whether um i lived or did not live or and ultimately, in retrospect, I think it's also about deciding that we get to choose how we live. So I think that journey to understand what happens in the human mind and the human heart has been a kind of lifelong journey. I mean, it was very much what I was doing at our alma mater, trying to take every kind of paradigm exploding class I could find to understand, you know, where truth lay. And then my work in publishing has been about working with these extraordinary visionaries, whether they're

spiritual leaders or scientists who are giving us some insight into our experience of being human. Right. Trying to find ways of having more agency, I suppose, over our health and our well-being and our sense of identity and purpose. Yeah. I think we so often feel like life happens to us and that we're victims of life and i think one of the things that the dalai lama and desmond tutu talk about in our in the book of joy one of the pillars of joy is perspective you know the ways in which we actually determine um you know how we see our life and that is one of our great freedoms you know the amazing Viktor Frankl who wrote Man's Search for Meaning who talks about our ultimate freedom is our choice is how we choose to see the perspective we take on our life, our attitude toward our life. because you're taking these two individuals who have suffered tremendously, who have undergone unbelievably painful journeys to be where they're at,

and yet they exude more joy than we seem capable of cultivating in our own life. And it's this perfect template to explore the subject of joy and to come to an understanding that suffering is actually a perfect crucible or a mechanism for cultivating greater joy. As opposed to something to avoid, it's a way of actually accessing greater empathy and finding a vehicle to be more expressive of that. As really well said, I think I went into the project thinking that joy and sorrow were these two separate things. And the goal of my life was to spend as much time in joy and to avoid sorrow as much as possible. And this book and their kind of understanding of life which is so complementary of the two of them is really that you you know you can't actually have joy without the sorrow that the two are kind of entwined and that this adversity that we experience in our life and that causes us so much sorrow and suffering

is actually, as you said, this crucible through which we grow and learn and actually experience more joy. So it was a really profound transformation. In my understanding, I think it's a profound corrective to our don't worry, be happy kind of mentality of what happiness is. I think there's something so profoundly human in the message of the book of joy, which is about understanding that we don't have to deny what we're often called the negative emotions, you know, the fear, anger, and sadness that we experience in order to experience the fourth and only other human emotion, which is to, you know, walk the path of forgiveness and empathy and joy just as much as it is a choice to be the victim, right? And I feel

like it's perhaps additionally resonant in our current times, given that, you know, I think we do live in a bit of a victim culture right now, and we kind of celebrate victimhood in a certain respect, and perhaps an unhealthy way. And to see these two people who no one would chagrin them for being victims of the circumstances that they've weathered, but to be quite the opposite. Yeah, there's an important distinction. One of the amazing psychologists I work with, Edie Eager, who survived Auschwitz and became this extraordinary clinical psychologist who works a lot with PTSD in the military. And one of the things she talks about is the distinction between victimization, which happens to all of us in various ways in our lives, and victimhood,

which is kind of like setting up shop in that victimization. Creating an identity around something, external circumstances. She does this amazing story about these two soldiers that she saw back to back in this hospital, and they had both become paraplegics. And one was sitting, lying in his bed, cursing God and country, you know, rightly, no doubt, and justifiably, in many ways for what had happened to him and, you know, the suffering that he was experiencing. And the other, the next, her next patient in the same hospital was also had lost his legs, but was in his, sitting in his wheelchair, telling her, I feel like I've been given a new lease on life. I never

realized that now I can look right into my children's eyes. I didn't realize now how close I am to the flowers, you know, and, you know, it's just that's that is what happens in our mind. You know, the reality and the facts may be the same, but this is that first pillar of joy, which determines which perspective we take. And the idea that that joy isn't something that happens to you or that you arrive at. It's actually a practice, right? You actually have, and in the book you have like, here are ways of cultivating it. And they're all like action steps, right? It's something that you can bring into your life by undertaking certain things to cultivate it. That's right. Don't have anything to do with your external circumstances.

Yeah. And one of the things that I think these two extraordinary people demonstrate and what we wanted to try to do in the book is that joy, we often think of joy as a kind of fleeting emotional state, that it's something that kind of flitters and lands on your shoulder like a butterfly and then it's gone when the meal is over or the song ends, you know, and you're out of joy and suddenly you're back into the other human emotions in some way. But we really wanted to try to ask them, how do we turn it from a state into a trait? You know, how do we take it from an emotional state that comes and goes into a character trait, which is, I think, what you're talking about. These men exude this, they live this, you know, which is not to say that they don't experience fear, anger, or sadness. It's just to say that they are able to cultivate

through their joy practices and through this way of life that they articulate in the book, a way of being in joy more of their lives. And so how would you define joy? And has that definition changed as a result of like, did your definition of joy change from the beginning of the book to where it is now? Yeah, it's so, you know, they wanted to have a lot of science in the book, which was really interesting that they felt like this cannot be a Buddhist book. The Dalai Lama said to me very clearly when we were together before the book, this can't be a Buddhist book. This can't be a Christian book. This needs to be a universal human book. And they wanted me to bring this

kind of science from the scientists that I work with on kind of the science of happiness and well-being. And one of the fascinating things that we heard from the scientists, like the kind of cutting-edge emotions science, is that there are just four human emotions from which all other emotions come. And those are fear, anger, sadness, and joy. And so, you know, three of those are what we often call negative emotions. And, you know, obviously, you know, as we were talking about, they're not to be denigrated, they're part of, but they often cause us a great deal of pain and suffering. And joy is really kind of all we got, you know, from which to create a life of meaning, purpose, happiness, kind of, you know, contribution, and to understand.

And so joy, you know, as a fundamental human emotion, it has this very wide range, right? So it's everything from kind of enjoyment and the joy of the five senses. So, you know, having that good meal, what, you know, the Dalai Lama calls, you know, physical happiness, right? You know, exactly. Pleasure all the way through to a kind of spiritual radiance of, you know, and generosity that these gentlemen have. So there's this very kind of wide range, you know, and, you know, along that terrain is kind of, you know, are different waypoints in terms of kinds of things that we experience as joyful. But there's this kind of spectrum from whether that's more of a kind of physical enjoyment or whether in which we often,

as you said, call more pleasure. And we talked a lot about the distinction there to something that's more, you know, mental, emotional, spiritually enduring and rich. Right. When you said, when you named the primary emotions, I almost feel you said fear, anger, sadness, and joy. Yeah. Right? But I feel like anger is almost a subset of fear. I feel like anger can fold into fear. Most anger comes from fear.

Well, so a lot of psychologists do call anger a secondary emotion, which they think comes out of fear. a secondary emotion, which they think comes out of fear. It's a kind of result, you know, all of our supposed, you know, so-called negative emotions evolved out of a need to activate us in some way. So fear and anger are really kind of fight or flight, right? So the anger part is the fight and the fear part is the flight. So they're kind of, you know, which is more primary, whether, you know, they're they're kind of. And I agree with you that I think oftentimes when we are experiencing anger, it's very useful to kind of say, what am I afraid of? You know, and what am I concerned about? So to kind of get under that emotion of anger. But I'm, you know, at least in terms of this, this research comes from the universal facial emotion, you know, expressions is how they kind of track these emotions. And they distinguish them from each other. And we seem to have developed an ability to not only feel but also communicate those four fundamental emotions. And you described the book as sort of this multi-layered cake, right? It's like part travelogue, part, you know, sort of exploration of this amazing friendship.

And then there's the wisdom that comes out of this, these universal truths. And then you have the science component of it, right? So I would imagine, you know, the science component from involves some heavy lifting on your part to like dig into the research and how that research is applicable to the way these gentlemen like live their life. Yeah. So we try obviously not to make it too heavy going in terms of the science, because the goal is obviously was to write a very accessible, popular book. accessible popular book but my one of my jobs was to kind of bring the kind of cutting edge of well you know well-being research and happiness research and to see i mean what they really said was they don't want this anybody to take what they have to say as an article of faith

or belief they want people to they want to have to see what the science supports or contradicts or and they want people to try it in their own life and to see what the science supports or contradicts or, and they want people to try it in their own life and again, see what's true for themselves. And so the science, I mean, it was really fascinating to see how much of what they said, that kind of science was corroborating, you know, like three of the eight pillars that they presented, eight pillars of joy were things that the happiness research really emphasized as well as being extremely important. So there was a lot of overlap in terms of the things that they were saying. And, you know, a lot of, I'm fortunate in that through the work I do with visionaries,

I've worked with a lot of the amazing and leading scientists in this arena. So it wasn't, I didn't have to totally dig it all up, you know, and I could turn to them also and ask them. And, you know, I, you know, had a wonderful lunch with Richie Davidson, who's this amazing brain researcher at Wisconsin who's studied meditation, for example. And he told me this incredible story as we were eating Vietnamese spring rolls, vegetarian spring rolls. And as his kind of boyish curly locks are blowing in this endless San Francisco wind,

he says, well, the Dalai Lama said to me that knowing the brain research really helps him motivate him to get out of bed and to meditate i said i was like wow if the dalai lama needs the science to motivate him to get out of bed then we really need the science what's beneath like beneath that is like just the tiniest sliver of doubt is this doing any good you know know, so, I mean, it's just, you know, I think, I mean, again, it's a wonderful human expression of, you know, like we all wonder, you know, whether our practices or what we're doing, how it's helping or whether it's better to hit the snooze button,

you know, and sleeps more. And so we really, you know, Archbishop Tutu talks about this thing that he calls self corroborating truth, which is when many different traditions or disciplines or sciences point to the same thing. And so I think this book is really in many ways, you know, kind of looking at where the finger is all pointing in terms of what does it mean to live a more happier, more joyful life. Right. in terms of what does it mean to live a happier, more joyful life. Right. So when you greet these individuals, there's an overwhelming sense of joy that is exuding from their beings. But the way I kind of see it is, and tell me what you think of this,

like behind the joy is this tremendous capacity for forgiveness, right? They both had to forgive in a tremendous way things that have occurred to them and to their people. And behind that is empathy, right? So it starts with empathy. So how do you go from anger and fear to cultivating that, to sort of seeing humanity, you know, from 10,000 feet that allows you to then forgive and then live more joyfully. Is that like a thread that? Yeah. Well, it's interesting. You know, we also had the privilege of helping Archbishop Tutu with the Book of Forgiving. And so, and obviously Archbishop Tutu is in many ways the kind of forgiving. Um, and so, and obviously Archer's do-do is in many ways, the kind of the global icon of forgiveness, having, um, been the chairman of the truth and reconciliation commission

in South Africa. So forgiveness is a huge part of, uh, of it for sure. It's one of the eight pillars. So, um, and one of the eight pillars of joy. So I'd say that it's not the be all and end all unto itself, but it is very hard to be joyful when you're holding on to bitterness and anger and not being forgiving. Um, and maybe it would be helpful to kind of map out the book and the pillars a little bit for people. Um, so, you know, the book is kind of divided into three parts. It's the, you know, the nature of true joy, which is what we were talking about before of what is joy and, you know, kind of how is it different from pleasure and, you know, how is it different from happiness, those kinds of questions. And then the second part is the obstacles to joy,

which is everything from fear and stress and anxiety all the way through adversity, illness, and even death. And so we really wanted the book to kind of live where people live, you know, not to kind of be up in this abstract realm of, you know, kind of lofty realm of ideals, but really kind of where the rubber hits the road in a morning commute. And so the third part is the eight pillars of joy, which is the kind of values, principles that they believe are most important for experiencing more joy. And, you know, one of the things that I think they talk about, for example, so those, there are eight of those pillars, four pillars of the mind, four pillars of the heart. And so the pillars are perspective, humility, humor, and acceptance. Those are the four pillars of the mind, which we can talk about. And the four pillars of the heart

are forgiveness, gratitude, compassion, and generosity. So one of the things they said was, gratitude, compassion, and generosity. So one of the things they said was, you know, if you try to run after happiness, you know, that is the fastest way to missing the bus, is how the Archbishop said it. You know, you can't actually get happiness by grasping after happiness. You actually have to cultivate these qualities in your life and then the more you cultivate those lives in those qualities you're kind of surprised by joy and suddenly you're like wow i'm so much more joyful as a result of that right joy being the byproduct of these action steps exactly right yeah like practicing gratitude and and and and exercising humility and the like right exactly being of service to other people, setting your ego aside.

Yeah, one of the wonderful phrases that Archbishop Tutu used was, you know, you will be surprised by the joy when you go beyond your own self-regard. You know, so that was, you know, both relates to humility and compassion and many of these themes. But it's also one of the other themes in the book is just this sense that it is really, we are such a social species that when we go beyond ourselves, that is our greatest joy. And one of the other kind of powerful lessons or understandings for me in writing this book was that the fastest way to joy is bringing it to others, you know. And so also when you talk about empathy, you know, that is, I think, a profound, you know, going outside of, you know, empathy and compassion takes us beyond our own experience and helps us see and relate to others.

Right. There's an exchange. I can't remember who said what, but there's an exchange in the book where the example is something like, you know, you're in traffic and somebody is making you late and it's easy to get aggro and upset. But to understand, like, maybe that person is, you know, on their way to the hospital. Like, you don't know what's going on with everybody. So to be able to have that, you know, 10,000 foot view on humanity, to expand your scope a little bit, allows, you know, that empathy to creep in in a

way that we too often like close it down. Yeah, it's true. I mean, it's funny you tell that story because that was actually one of the first times I was with Archbishop Tutu that- You were in traffic and I was kind of like, you know, I really, part of what I wanted to, you know, why I wanted to work with Archbishop Tutu was to really understand, you know, how does a man of this moral stature and this extraordinary spiritual development drive in traffic, you know, like, you know, like how does that rubber hit that road? You know, and we were driving in Florida, you know, and, um, we were, you know, kind of somebody cut up in front of us and cut us off. And, you know, he, he kind of said, there are some amazing

drivers here, you know, aren't there. And then he was like, you know, and I said to him, you know, so what's going through your head, you know, like, what are you thinking when that happens? And he said to me, you know, like, well, you know, it's, you know, he obviously had a response like we all do of fear or anger or something that kind of boiled up in him when he was surprised and, and afraid that he was going to get into an accident. But then he said, well, I think to myself that maybe this person is rushing to the hospital because their wife is sick. You know, and then like suddenly like it just shifts it totally, right? It diffuses it completely.

And that kind of perspective take, you know, that perspective shift from this person is cutting me off, that bastard, you know, they're doing this to me, to, you know, maybe this isn't actually about me, you know. And, you know, you were coming into the office today and I was just working with this amazing neuroscience, neuroscientist, Ethan Cross. And a lot of some of his work is on what's called self distancing, which is this ability to actually take ourselves and move our perspective outside of ourselves. Right. So and it's incredibly powerful in the what they find in the lab that it really shifts the way our brains work. I mean, even actually, instead of saying, you know, I am doing this, it's just saying Doug is doing this. Even that little linguistic shift lights up totally

different parts of the brain. And so when we take that kind of more objective third person separate perspective and not like this guy is running me off the road, but I wonder what's happening for this person. You know, it's shifting the way our brain is firing and it shifts our emotional response. Right, like decentralizing your consciousness into the more of the hive mind. Well, certainly there's that, which is just, you know, also, I mean, obviously self-distancing,

another practice of self-distancing that these two are masters of is going beyond your own self-interest and your own limited self-perspective. And one of the big, the first pillar of perspective is about developing this wider perspective and being able to see life from this wider perspective and not just kind of, you know, we're kind of the stars of our own movie all the time. And, you know, like we just can't help that. That's just the way human consciousness evolved. But when we're able to shift the camera angle and see a wider perspective outside of, you know, kind of what we're feeling and what's happening to us and, you know, that is kind of the beginning of joy and wisdom. We all know intellectually that the road to cultivating more joy or being a more contented, purposeful, mission-driven person involves getting outside ourselves and being of service to others,

right? The happiest people are the people that really have devoted themselves to a cause greater than themselves or people who give of themselves freely and selflessly. But there's that gap between that understanding and the practice of that, right? Like we kind of know that even though we're inundated with marketing messages all day long that the road to happiness is the new car or the comfier couch or the bigger television or what have you. So, you know, I'm interested in how we, how, like coming into an understanding of this isn't the same as doing it, right? So how do we bridge the gap between the knowing and the acting? Well, I think it's, um, it's not trying to take an, you know, a leap, an Olympic long jump leap. Um, it's about incremental steps. And so one of the things

that was so powerful for, uh, I think in the book is that they kind of break it down into kind of, here's, here's the, the shift of mind when your spouse says something to you. You know, like here's the, you know, here's how we kind of think about, you know, here's how gratitude works in our life. Here's how humility works in our life. Here's how humor works in our life. You know, here's how acceptance. I mean, it was really powerful. Here's how acceptance – I mean, it was really powerful. The chapter on acceptance is called Acceptance, the only place from where real change can occur. And it's this kind of fascinating distinction between acceptance and acquiescence and the distinction between how do you accept reality and still, as these two incredible social activists, work for something greater, as you said, or something, some change. Right, yeah, you talked about, or it talks about,

just because you are in forgiveness doesn't mean that you are obviating the quest for justice. Right. Those are two different things. Right, exactly. And then Archbishop tutu talks about he he tells this amazing story about forgiveness that i intuit from the story although he didn't use any names is was really the story of of amy beal right and her family right as a classmate of ours yeah can you talk about that a little bit sure this is this incredible this incredible story of forgiveness and a story that came to him when

Amy Beal's mother came to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. And Amy Beal was a classmate of ours in college. Were you friends with her in school? I knew her. I wouldn't say that we were close. But she, after college, went off to South Africa. I think it was on a Fulbright or some kind of scholarship that she went to work in the townships in South Africa. This was during the battle days of apartheid. And when she was dropping off some colleagues at a township, this crowd that was incensed or angry about some injustice that they were suffering saw her as a white woman and attacked the car and killed her. And, you know, you can only imagine the devastation and suffering of her parents. But her parents,

when they came to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, said that they didn't actually want they wanted to accept the amnesty of the people who had killed their two guys in particular who had been responsible for her death. actually set up a nonprofit to help the people of the township where her daughter had been killed and actually employed the two men who had killed Amy, who had been involved in the killing of Amy. So, I mean, it was this extraordinary ability to go beyond what is a very natural human instinct for revenge. And one of the fascinating things is understanding at the fundamental level what forgiveness is, is simply giving up your justified right to revenge, right? So, you know, kind of in all the cultures that we looked at practically or all the cultures that the scientists have studied, they all have some form of revenge and they all have some form of forgiveness in their culture. It's just, it seems to be this ubiquitous human choice that we either are going to try to revenge the wrong that

has been done to us, or we're going to forgive. Now, as we said, forgiving doesn't mean that you don't seek justice, right? But it does mean you don't continue that cycle of harm, right? Instead of killing the person who killed someone you love, you choose a different form of punishment or restorative justice, something that is – but know, and so that was the story that he told. Yeah. Not to mention the, the harm that you perpetrate on yourself by harboring that, that, you know, quest for vengeance and that resentment and that anger that gets all packed into that for them. I would imagine, um, that that is the, that was the road to freedom for them. Like this is the only way they're going to be able to make sense of and, and find peace with what happened with their daughter. Yeah. I mean, it's an

extraordinary story and a kind of heroic example of forgiveness that it's hard for many people to even imagine. And, um, and you know, the, you know, one thing about trauma is that it doesn't necessarily mean you forget the trauma or it goes away or, you know, you lose of statement of, you know, it's, you know, unforgiveness is kind of like, you know, drinking poison and hoping it's going to harm somebody else. Right. It's a self-created prison that will permanently impede your ability to access the joy that you seek. Right. Exactly. And it definitely is, you know, that unforgiveness, actually, the scientists tell us has enormous physiological impact on our health. So it's like we literally are poisoning ourselves at a kind of cellular, you know, hormonal biological level when we kind of harbor that bitterness.

And there's so much fear that would crop up around the idea of letting that go, right? I think it takes a tremendous act of heroism, of courage to be able to face that and really come to a place where you want to relinquish it. But it's so powerful. I mean, that example has stood the test of time of one of the great stories in that era of truth and reconciliation. Yeah. I mean, Archbishop Tutu told this incredibly moving story about having to forgive his own father when we were together in Dharamsala. Ramsala. And, you know, it was quite moving to hear the world's icon of forgiveness talk about his own struggles with forgiveness. Because his father would get drunk and although he was quite wonderful in other ways, would beat his mother when he was drunk. And he just, you know, told

this amazing story, which I can share. Yeah, I mean, it is pretty amazing. The ending is quite poignant. Yeah, I mean, he was talking about how he was on his way to drive his children the many hours that they had to go to be enrolled in school because of Bantu education and the kind of educational limitations that were put on blacks in South Africa. And he stopped off at his parents' house to see his parents, and his father wanted to talk to him and really seemed quite moved to try to connect with him. But he was just, you know, drop dead tired and just said, you know, dad, can we, you know, can we talk tomorrow? Uh, we're on our way to Leia, his wife's house to sleep. And so he just,

you know, wasn't able to engage his dad. And then the next morning he woke up and as he said, as sometimes only happens in books and movies, I got a call from my cousin who said, your father is dead. And, you know, he just, he sat there as he was telling this story, you know, as I mean, many, you know, this story from across the decades that was so clearly still with him and this deep feeling of regret that he had not given his father that opportunity to ask for forgiveness, which is what he intuited he wanted. Um, and he just, you know, he, he got quiet and we all just stopped the interviews. We just,

you know, those in the film crew and everyone who's there, you know, they're listening. We all just got really quiet and just were with him for like five minutes, just honoring the grief that he still felt around the loss that he still felt of having not been able to extend that forgiveness to his father. And so what do you extrapolate out of that as like a teachable moment? Well, I think what he was suggesting is

don't give up those moments of forgiveness. We don't know how many we'll have. And here, this extraordinary person who's obviously been so extraordinarily forgiving in his life, and yet when we miss those opportunities, they don't often come back. so this project comes together and you're vested with the responsibility of like having to kind of you know idea architect yeah this whole extravaganza between these two amazing human beings you go to dharm sala and you're kind of going to be moderating, right? Like how do you wrap your head around approaching that responsibility? It was pretty daunting.

There were quite a few dark nights of the soul and dark mornings of the soul. Dark afternoons. What have I gotten myself into? First of all, there would be the logistical aspects of it, right? Like I would imagine the planning of this was huge. I mean, just, you know, incredible just to try to align these two extraordinary men's lives and calendars and get them there. And, you know, Archbishop was dealing again with his prostate cancer and, you know, had illness. We didn't actually know if he was going to be well enough to go.

And, you know, so there was just a ton of logistical things. And fortunately, I was incredibly well supported and helped by amazing, you know, collaborators and colleagues who were involved in that. collaborators and colleagues who were involved in that. Um, but I will tell you that, you know, the night before the, the interviews began, there was definitely like, you know, that, that, like, when is Oprah Winfrey and Anderson Cooper going to step in and take over the people that really know how to do this. And, um, you know, like, and there was this kind of, like like I was kind of up in the middle of the night, you know, as sometimes we are kind of. And I, you know, really kind of heard this voice almost that said, you know, like, it's not about you. It's not about your limitations or your skills. You're here.

or your skills. You're here, and as Archbishop Tutu has said at other times to me, sometimes you're the one who happens to be there at a moment in history, and you are called upon to do something, whether you feel capable of doing it or not. And certainly it felt like when I was able to let go of my own ego and my own self-preoccupation. To practice a little humility. Practice a little humility and just say, I'm here to be the people's ambassador, to ask these questions on behalf of people who want to know the answers.

And I happen to be the person kind of in the seat, but it doesn't happen to depend. Success doesn't happen to depend. Its success doesn't happen to hinge on, you know, on my limitations. Um, and then, you know, the, the week just was transcendent after that. I mean, it was amazing. It just kind of flowed in this amazingly magical way. Um, you know, I definitely, they both speak very long and we had, you know, they're used to giving sermons and darshan and we had a whole book to write and I had to, you know, they're used to giving sermons and darshanas and we had a whole luck to write and I had to, you know, kind of have the fool's errand of trying to interrupt the Dalai Lama sometimes when he was on a roll. But we were, you know, we were able to just,

I think, because in some ways it wasn't just an interview, it was this kind of collaborative inquiry and dialogue. And so they were really almost asking each other questions. You know, there was, you know, this amazing moment, you know, when the, you know, we, right at the beginning of the dialogue, when the Dalai Lama was, we were talking about, you know, about joy and the Dalai Lama was speaking and Archbishop Tutu turns to him and he says, why are you not morose? And the Dalai Lama is like, morose? What is morose? So he turns to his translator to get it explained. And Archbishop Tutu says, sad. Why are you, you know, here you are, you've been turfed out of your country, one of the most heartbreaking, horrible

things that can happen to anyone. You and your people have suffered all of this tragedy. Why are you not sad and heartbroken? And the Dalai Lama responded by saying, you know, I think about my life and I realize that actually my exile has been enriching, that it has brought me closer to truth. And if I had stayed in the gilded cage in Dharamsala, my life would have been much smaller. And it was just this amazing talk about perspective shift of the ability, which is not to deny all the suffering that he or his people have been through, but to be able to see that even in that unbelievable adversity were gifts and opportunities that had allowed him to grow and become the human being that he is.

Yeah. And has given him a global platform and podium that perhaps would not have transpired had he remained in the gilded cage, you know, protected in his homeland. Yeah. It's funny. They were joking about their Nobel Prizes and our sister Tutu was giggling. He said, yes, it's kind of perverse, isn't it? You probably wouldn't have won, you know, the Nobel Prize, now would you? And it was just so funny to like, you have them kind of joking about these, you know, like these vaunted prizes as if

they were kind of these funny little, you know, trinkets that they had gotten along the way. And the mutual respect that they have for each other's versions of faith, right? Yes. They could joke about it, but they could also be inquisitive about it. And there's a respect there, even though the form of their face, you know, differ. Yeah, that was really a wonderful part of the week together and a wonderful part of the Book of Joy, I think, is this kind of weaving together of their two traditions and the sharing

of Christianity and Buddhism and the recognition that kind of at the mountaintop, you know, where all these faiths meet, you know, the vista is the same. And they did this extraordinary sharing of their traditions with each other.

You know, the Dalai Lama taught Archbishop Tutu how he meditates. That's hilarious. Amazing. And Archbishop Tutu was, you know, giving the Dalai Lama communion. You know, but they were teasing each other and joking about it, you know, the whole time. You know, and then they were also joking about who was going to go to heaven, who was going to go to hell. And the Dalai Lama, you know, joking about being an unbeliever,

so he's going to hell, but maybe Archbishop Tutu, you know, would, you know, get him in, you know, kind of, you know, would get him in. Well, there was the whole conversation of death, too, which where they were joking about, you know, the, you know, when I think we were talking about death, and Archeshwari Tuju said, well, he doesn't care. He's going to be reincarnated. You know, why does he care about death? And, you know, the Dalai Lama said, well, actually, with reincarnation, there's much uncertainty. You know you're going to heaven. So, you know, you're the one who's, you know, who doesn't have to worry. And so they were just teasing each other back and forth. And at one moment at the end of our time together,

when we were kind of on the last day talking about death, the Dalai Lama turned to Archbishop Tutu and he said, you know, I have decided I'd rather go to hell. We were like, whoa. And he said, there are more people there I can help. That's a very revealing comment to his character. Yeah. And it was also this wonderful expression of everything they were saying about how that's where, rather than my own happiness, my know, my own happiness, my own, you know,

I'm going to heaven. It's all going to be wonderful. Me, I'm the star of my own movie going to heaven. I'd rather actually, the greater joy would actually be, you know, even enduring hell to help others. Right. Because if you go to heaven, then how are you going to be of service to everybody who's living happily there?

Right. Exactly. Yeah. That's really incredible. So what is the grand takeaway for you from this experience? How has this experience shaped your trajectory or changed how you lead your life on a daily basis? How could you not be impacted by this? Oh, well, and you already spoke to my wife. So you can, you can, you can, you know, whether I become a better man. She said, well, I'll tell you this. At the end of our podcast, I go, so what should I, what should I talk to Doug about?

What should I ask him about? She's like, ask him about how amazing his wife is. Well, that's easy for me to talk about. You know, smart men marry great wives. What is a happy wife, happy life. But, you know, I think what she might say and what I would say is that it has, there's just no way that you can be involved in this kind of project. And even whether it's staring into their eyes for seven days or whether it's writing the book or whether it's reading the book, but it's such powerful expression of such deep understandings of our lives. And so, you know, they present it in such a way that is both, as you said, simple and accessible, but so unbelievably profound and kind of transformational that it's,

you know, I mean, what it's done for me, I think I was alluding to before a little bit about how it's changed that understanding of what I'm here to do, you know, or how I'm here, what I'm, what I'm up to in my life, that it's not just about kind of racking up joys and kind of avoiding sorrows. Um, but that actually shifted my framework about, you know, it's been interesting actually as these amazing, the amazing joy of publishing this book and sharing it with the world. There've been some real hardships in my own life that have been going on at the same time. And, you know, I think it's allowed me to recognize that those two will end. It has allowed me to recognize that those are part of, you know, what sculpt me and the ones that I love. And that that adversity is not something, you know, to,

it's not, you know, like we chase after adversity or create it purposefully, but to see it in a different framework and to understand that it is, you know, a necessary part of the human journey. You know, Archbishop Tutu talked about it as, about it as there's this strange way that in our universe, it seems that it's like when you're an ultra runner, right? You're not going to build those muscles lying on the couch. And there's a way in which our characters and our souls work the same way, that if they're not exercised, if there's no tension, no stress, no adversity, they don't seem to grow. And actually, when I went to this incredible pediatric epidemiologist who studies in utero development, and one of the things he said when

I was sharing this with him was, actually, our cells do not differentiate in utero unless there's enough biological stress. So fundamentally, we don't become who we are. We don't become the complex beings at the most cellular level without that stress and opposition. And it seems like in this universe that, and in this, you know, evolution of our species, that that seems to be the case as well, that without that adversity, without that tension, we don't grow and become who we are. We all have adversity. We all have suffering. We don't escape the human experiment without it. And, you know, as somebody who is steeped in story and the power of storytelling, you know, I take from it the power of story, the power of owning your story

and your suffering and your pain and using that as a vehicle to kind of own who you are and use that, you know, to use that and come from a place of strength to help transmute other people's pain and suffering. Well, you raise a very powerful point, which is the difference between whether our suffering ennobles us or embitters us. And this is this very powerful distinction that Archbishop Tutu makes, that the difference is finding meaning in that suffering. So if we don't, if our suffering seems meaningless to us, then it becomes embittering. If we can make that suffering meaningful, and one of the major ways we make that meaningful, as you just said, is taking that personal suffering and hardship and using it to benefit others or to transform the suffering so that others don't have to experience it.

And when we're able to do that, then the suffering becomes ennobling. Do you think that all suffering, that meaning can be found in all suffering? Well, I think that fundamentally we are meaning making creatures. I think that as Ethan Cross, who was just talking about, you know, the workings of our conscious mind, we need that meaning. We go crazy without that meaning. And so we, whether it's the meaning or whether it's a meaning, we make that meaning. We interpret those events and we make a meaning out of it that is a sufficient meaning for it to work its magic on us and for us to be able to use it for the benefit of others. Yeah. And I think it's about taking that suffering and

understanding that there is opportunity in that. Yeah. Right. That it doesn't have to be a vehicle for victimhood or victimization or creating a narrative around that, but as an opportunity to begin to tell a new story. Right. And create a new path. Absolutely.

Right. Which has been, I mean, that's a big part of my story. I think it's a part part of my story. I think it's a part of everybody's story, honestly, um, to reframe it as a means for growth, which is, you know, that's what we're here to do. Right. And, you know, and I think, as you said, it's a means for our own growth. It's a mean for means for our contribution. You know, one of the deepest, you know, I was talking to this high school class last week, and they were having this fascinating conversation about grade inflation. And, you know, and, you know, then the teacher had wanted me to speak to them a little bit about,

you know, my own, this is a newspaper class, I was telling them about my own experience. But what I was moved to say was, yeah, the grades are all necessary, you know, to get where you want to go, but there is no grade for the meaning that, and satisfaction that we get from feeling like we are contributing in a way that uses, and we are being well used. And I think that's what we so often lose and forget in the, you know, kind of quest for career and money and all the things that we need to support ourselves. But that ultimately, it's really about being able to, as you said, take our own story, take our own, you know, experience and use that for making some contribution that is valuable to the, you know, that brings joy to others. And that is the greatest

joy. And so in taking this five-day experience with these people, not only were you vested with the responsibility of, you know, like sort of orchestrating it and moderating it, you then have to come home and synthesize it and distill it down into a book that is digestible. I mean, one of the things you did an amazing job with this book is it's incredibly readable and it's enjoyable and it's entertaining. It's not, you know, it's like, I think I went into it thinking this is going to be, you know, one of those books that you're going to have to tackle, you know, it's like, I think I went into it thinking this is going to be, you know, one of those books that you're going to have to tackle, you know, but it's like, it's a fun read, right? So how do you take all of this and put it in a form where people actually not only want to read it, but are able to read it, they're able to absorb this powerful information in a very digestible way?

Yeah, that was the task. You know, when we were talking about being well used by the universe, then there's whether you can match up and make the grade, too. And there's no grade inflation here. Dalai Lama's caught on the phone. How's the book coming? What page are you on? Are you done?

So, I mean, it was, you know, it did feel like an incredible privilege and a huge responsibility. And I will say there are many times where I wondered, like, am I going to be able to, I mean have, but also my own suffering, my own experience, every little piece. It's like, was there on the page in be who you are and doing this amazing work that you're doing in the kind of interviewing and gifting of stories and insights to people if you hadn't had, you know, the journey and the adversity that you had gone through. And then to similarly to feel like, you know, that it took everything, you know, every every of crap and, you know, light and shadows of it all was necessary to make this book come to life. And, you know, and it was, you know, it's, you know, there's this really wild thing when you're writing, which is, you know, you're

constantly trying to get to the verisimilitude of life, right? You're trying to get closer and closer to what, you know, with words, with these kind of two-dimensional things, with the experience of being human. And you're, it's inevitably, you know, you could do a hundred drafts and you could always get closer to true life and real life. So it was trying within the time frame that I had, you know, to try to do my best to bring those experiences to life. And fortunately, they're so damn funny. And they, you know, are just such extraordinarily kind of radiant people that I had to really screw it up to have it not be fun to write. You did an amazing job. Were these guys, did they give you notes?

Like how involved in the process of creating the book were they? You know, so one of the things I was very much helped enormously by the Dalai Lama's translator, Thubten Jimpa, an amazing former monk and Buddhist scholar and translator with the Dalai Lama. He was enormously helpful to make sure every word was accurate and correct. You know, the Dalai Lama doesn't have the English reading skills to be able to kind of go through it and kind of word by word and, you know, in the way that Archbishop Tutu did. But, you know, Bishop Tutu kind of went through every, you know, word of it.

And, you know, I was, you know. The hat's on the other head, right? Like it's like you switched your roles. Right. And, you know, he, you know, he actually was an English teacher before he became a priest, an Anglican priest. And so he would, you know, he would would even give me spelling corrections and grammar corrections. So it was awesome.

It felt like an enchanted opportunity to be able to kind of both engage with them and also, as you were saying, to get to share this with the world. You know, it wasn't easy to get to share, you know, to figure out how to share it with the world. But that opportunity to be able to say, like, here's this unbelievable historic experience that will never happen again. And to be able to share that with the world, that was incredibly joyful. And they have to be very happy with the result, I would imagine, right? Yeah.

I mean, I think it's, you know, been published in like 30 countries around the world and has been, you know, an international bestseller, which is really exciting. And, you know, it's really impacting people in the way I think that they had hoped. And, you know, the goal was to come for the Dalai Lama's 80th birthday and create a birthday present for the world. And I feel like they're, they feel gratified that they were able to do that. And I know you guys filmed all of this, right? So what that like is that being turned into a documentary or so we're working on uh creating turning that into a documentary we've been able to take some brief clips um and share some kind of marvelous moments um and that uh people a lot of over 20

million people have seen these video clips of uh from dharamsala which are i haven't seen those are they on youtube where can you see those so yeah they're uh they're probably the easiest way is to go to uh archbishop tutu's web page uh facebook page and look at the videos um i'll link it in the show notes that'd be great yeah and they're just these wonderful um marvelous uh exchanges And you really get to see, as you said, the incredible love and the incredible mischievousness and playfulness that they have with each other. Yeah, it's really something to behold. It's really quite beautiful.

And in the writing of the book, I'm going to let you go in a minute, but a couple of questions. This is like a selfish question, but as somebody who you have three daughters, you're married, you're running this amazingly dynamic business here. Like how are you finding time to write a book also on top of all

of that? Like how do you make all of that work? Uh, so it did feel a little like having, you know, three jobs at the time I was writing the book. So that was, was definitely challenging. Um, was definitely challenging. You know, my sense, what I would say is having written all my life now and, you know, it's this kind of craft that you do obviously kind of on a regular basis. And then, you know, a lot of it was just, you know, kind of setting aside those times like writing retreats or, you know, kind of weekends and just saying, I'm going to be uninterrupted. It's, I mean, I think the most challenging thing about creativity is when it's, when we get fragmented, you know, you really have to kind of. You need that quiet, quiet, large swaths of time. Exactly. Uninterrupted time. It's really, you know, you kind of go into that altered state and that experience.

I also think, you know, one of the scientists I work with is John Barge is the world's leading expert on the unconscious brain. And one of the things he talks about is that you can actually prime your brain to give you kind of creative kind of guidance. And, you know, so I wish I had known that at the time. Yeah, I was like, do you have that guy's phone number? I want to call that guy. Yeah, it's really amazing.

He talks about how Norman Mailer would do this and would be, you know, is basically say, okay, I need chapter three, unconscious brain. I need chapter three tomorrow, 7 a.m., you know, and, but you have to actually hold to it because if you betray your unconscious, then it won't, 7 a.m. You know, and but you have to actually hold to it, because if you betray your unconscious, then it won't. You're breaking that contract. Exactly.

So so there was a lot of just, you know, just really trying to get into it and focus. And, you know, I had an amazing editor, Caroline Sutton at Avery and that helped me enormously with the writing. I think, you know, we often think about writing as this kind of solitary craft, but actually I think, you know, it's obviously this relational you know, art because you're trying to communicate something

to other people. And, you know, even though we kind of imagine that somebody goes into a cabin and suddenly it's, you know, like springs out of their head, like, you know, Athena from the head of Zeus or something or Aphrodite or something. I don't know which one it was. But, you know, you just assume that it's going to be there wholly baked. And in reality, it's, you know, it's a dialogue. You know, writing is a dialogue in which you're kind of trying to get closer and closer to the truth and trying to, you know, describe things more and more closely to the reality of what you want to reveal.

Yeah, that seems like that's kind of a foundational core precept of your business, right? Yeah. Like this idea that creativity or genius is a collaborative process. Exactly. Yeah, that is the motto of our company is that genius is a collaborative process. Exactly. Yeah. That is the motto of our company is that genius is a collaborative process. And I had amazing colleagues here as well. And Laura Love and Andrew Mumm and others who were kind of, who actually were there helping with the, with the shoot and, and able to kind of give me feedback and kind of share their own perspective

and their own lens on it. You know, it's like that first pillar of perspective. It's like ultimately like how do we get our perspective but also get these other perspectives so we can dimensionalize it and make it 360. So what's next? The book of blank. I see a series coming. It'd be hard to top this one. I know.

What other two people are you going to get in a room? Right, exactly. It's like people said, who are you going to work with next? God. It's like, it's harder to get that email, I think, to the divine. Yeah, this really did feel like a culminating experience in a mountaintop experience for, you know, a journey that I was on. And now I think it's a question. I think there are lots of other amazing and fascinating people who, you know, in dialogue, there's something about that dialogue together like this, you know, that makes something greater than each of the monologues.

And, you know, it's unusual in books to experience that, you know, because usually a book is one person's expression. Um, so that I, I'm excited about doing more of that after a big breather. Well, the book is, is wonderful. It really is a birthday gift to the world. And, uh, I appreciate the fact that you invested your heart and soul in birthing it. And it's wonderful. Everybody should check it out.

It is a true gift. And I commend you for writing it and bringing it to all of us, man. And it's awesome to talk to you. That's great. Well, when you're old friends and classmates are proud of you, that's a big joy. That's cool. So if people want to connect with you, ideaarchitects.com, is that the best way? That's my business. Bookofjoy.org is the website for the book. And yeah, at Idea Architects, this genius is a collaborative process. And, yeah, at Idea Architects, you know, this genius is a collaborative process. We're actually going to be kind of open sourcing our work in a way to share it with the world more directly.

So if people are interested in hearing about these projects early on or getting early access to it, you know, we crowdsourced a thousand questions for the Dalai Lama in Tutu. So we'll be doing more kinds of activities like that where people get to actually be engaged with the visionaries that we get to work with. Cool. And are you doing public speaking? You taking the show on the road a little bit? I think, you know, I have been called on, you know, just because the Dalai Lama and Archbishop Tutu are so busy

and, you know, because of the Arch's health to kind of step into their very big shoes to kind of talk about their very big shoes to kind of talk about the book. Um, but I think it's, it's back to the grindstone now it's, uh, creating more, um, hopefully, uh, works that, uh, create a wiser, healthier, more just world. Awesome, man. Great talking to you. You too, Rich. All right. Take care.

Peace. Let's. All right, we did it. Beautiful. Really beautiful. Hope you guys enjoyed that. I thought it was amazing. You know, it's really cool. Doug is actually thinking about starting his own podcast. We talked about it right after we wrapped this conversation. I actually talked to him about it a little bit more yesterday, and I really hope he does. He has the great fortune of coming across some truly remarkable people with whom he is in contact over books and stuff like that. And I just think it would be a gift to the world if he could find a way to capture those conversations and share them.

So if you are digging on Doug and you think that him doing a podcast is something you would be interested in, go to his website, ideaarchitects.com, maybe shoot him a message and let him know. And if you're crushing on Doug beyond that and you want to cultivate a little bit more joy in your life, of course, pick up the book of joy. And again, you can learn more about Doug at ideaarchitects.com as well as by checking out the show notes on the episode page at richroll.com.

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So look forward to that in a couple days. I'll see you guys soon. Peace. Plants. Thank you.