The Rich Roll Podcast - If I Can, I Will: William Goodge On Running 50 Marathons In 50 States In 24 Days

Episode Date: September 17, 2026

William Goodge is a British ultra-endurance athlete who just FKT'd his Australia crossing. In October, he runs 50 marathons in 50 states in 24 days. We get into the logistics, the strange polarity of a life spent between five-star hotels and the side of a trail, and what it's like to be doubted in public.  Will is the most aura-farming, Goodge-coded ultra mog I could possibly imagine. Enjoy! Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube Newsletter Sign-Up Today’s Sponsors: TORRAS: Get 15% off the TORRAS Q3 Air Pro case with code RICHROLL👉🏼https://torraslife.com/products/iphone-17-pro-max-case-ostand-q3-air-pro  WHOOP: Join now and get one month free👉🏼https://www.join.whoop.com/Roll  Airbnb: Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much👉🏼https://www.airbnb.com/host  Momentous: Get up to 35% off your first order👉🏼https://www.livemomentous.com/richroll  Noble Mobile: Try Noble for just $10 with code RICHROLL👉🏼https://www.noblemobile.com  Check out all of the amazing discounts from our Sponsors👉🏼https://www.richroll.com/sponsors  Find out more about Voicing Change Media at https://www.voicingchange.media and follow us @voicingchange Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Correct, yeah. This is a whole new level of insanity. This is Mission America. William Goose. William Gooch. William Gooch. Ran across the entire United States. Fastest British person ever.

He's an absolute beast when it comes to ultra running. On paper, this should be the most difficult thing I've ever done. The level of intricacy in detail on this is unlike anything I've ever done before. So it has to flow exactly right. How do you think about that and prepare yourself? I think a lot of us move through life with fear and a lot of the time fear stops us from chasing our dreams or chasing our goals. So I have the most simple phrase, can I take another step?

The answer is always yes. Well, it's good to have you back here, man, for round two. I'm one of your biggest fans. You keep raising the bar on your challenges, challenging yourself, and the latest iteration of this is very difficult to get my head around. Many people have run, I don't know how many, but more than a few have run 50 marathons in 50 states and 50 days. We all know Dean Carnazas.

It's probably the most celebrated person who's done it, and he wrote a book about it. I know that book was very influential on you. Do we know how many people have done that? I have no idea, no. Yeah. I would imagine there's a handful at least, right? Yeah, and they'd have probably done it over like a period of years as well,

Because there is one record for a lady that's done the fastest average time in all 50 states, which I assume would be at actual races. Yeah. Right. But with no time limit on or like doing it in a calendar year or something like that, right? But what you're about to embark upon on October 3rd is at a whole other level. You're going to do 50 marathons in 50 states and you're going to do it in 24 days. Correct.

Yeah. the only thing is I'm starting October 9th but oh October 9th sorry everything else is gold October 9 it's difficult for me to even get my head around this not only are you kind of having you know cutting in half

the amount of days that Dean did it it's it's like then one more day like you could have set it for 25 and said I'm going to cut it in half and you went to 24 I'm curious around that this is banana On most days, you're going to be running two marathons in two different states. But on four occasions, October 17th, October 19th, October 25th, and October 30th,

you're going to be running three marathons in separate states in a 24-hour period. Yeah. How is this possible? Well, it is possible because originally I was going to try and do it in 20 days. That was the most extreme version of this. But in working with Goodwin, my premier partner, they've figured out sort of the best way around the country of doing it. But also there has to be some kind of time allocation for if anything goes wrong because we're driving a lot. We're taking commercial flights and we're taking private flights as well.

So if anything goes wrong, like a car breaks down or a flight is delayed, that knock on effect, domino effect could ruin the entire thing. So making it 24 days has allowed a buffer. So it's basically a four-day buffer knowing that if everything goes to plan that you possibly could do this in 20 days. Exactly, yeah. Because we're tied to finishing at the New York City Marathon, which is obviously an epic event to finish up. 60,000 other people running, it's not just me in New York. Hopefully some people would turn up.

But it's like a really cool celebration. I did something similar in the UK when I finished doing 48 marathons in 30 days at the London Marathon. Right. So it adds a level to it. But yeah, the pressure is on from the very beginning. Like each marathon has to be less than five hours, otherwise we're in trouble. So those days of three will be interesting, but I've run those distances before. And it adds to the madness of it because running across country like point to point,

I've done that quite a few times now. And this is going to be, it's going to be crazy, but in all of the right ways. This is a whole new level of insanity. Yeah. But it's also the most kind of aura farming, goge-coded ultra-mog that I could possibly imagine for you. Like, it's kind of perfect.

You're the only person who can do this. And you're doing it, once again, with your own kind of like bespoke unique goge flare. Because your primary partner is basically a, like a digital logistics company for private aviation, right? So this is providing you with access to PJs. to supplement the travel, there's this elaborate map

where it shows where you're going to be on every single day that you shared with me. Essentially, it's some combination of commercial aviation, private aviation,

and driving in a van. And that mix is going to basically allow you to be in all of these places. And just the elaborate nature of the logistics here, it's like a military operation

essentially. It's completely. I pull this off. It's completely insane. And Robbie, a friend of yours, very close friend of mine, Robbie Ballinger, and Jason, the guy that helped me across Australia as well, former Marine, they were looking at the plans when we're in Colorado recently and they were just, they were mind blown. Because the level of intricacy and detail on this has to flow exactly.

Right. Traveling so much, making sure we're on time, et cetera. So, yeah, the level of detail on the people behind the scenes working on this is unlike anything I've ever done before. People think when you run across a country, it's like the planning must be crazy. I'm like, dude, I go on Google Maps and have Perth going to Sydney and the walking route. You just have to make sure the RV, you know, has a GPS or what you don't even, it's like you're going straight for like, you know, a thousand miles. Yeah. And there's no like, there's no exacting pressure other than that like the limits of what I've said I'm going to do it in. So I'm

going to run 60 miles, 70 miles in the day. This is all exact, exact move on. Next place, next next start. Yeah, it's sort of like a special forces operation. How many people contributed to kind of nailing down these logistical plans? Well, to be honest, there's probably around 50 people involved in total across all like partners because we're doing it with GoFundMe or getting behind it, stand up to cancer. It's going to be a fully functioning website that's going to be insane and quite gamified as well, which is really cool. And then the team at Goodwin, I think there's I I think there's 50 employees and a lot of them working on this one way or another.

And then my own crew, PR. You have your core guys that you've taken on all of these journeys. Yeah, it's the best team I've put together. I'm really excited about it. Robbie's not going to do the whole thing though, right? He's going to do the first half. And then him and Jason are going to overlap, I think, in Chicago. They'll do a couple of days together.

And then Jason will carry on for the rest. But I've got one of my closest friends, Peter John, former military guy. as well. Right. He's the guy with the longest hair, right? Yeah, paratrooper, rock and roller, loves going to Berlin, parties, has his own, like, luxury brand. He is, he's one of the funniest blokes I've ever met, complains about everything, but there's, there's a few people that complain about everything and be really funny at the same time. And he's definitely one of those characters. So, like, having military people around someone like this is obviously perfect, because they're that way hardwired. And then Robbie having done. And they're not going to freak out when,

you know, there's a thunderstorm or something unforeseen happens because you've done enough of these to know like they don't go to plan. Like stuff's going to happen so you're wise to build in those extra four days. Exactly. Especially when you're relying on commercial aviation. Yeah.

You have no control over how that goes down. That's the testing one and also like widening it out as meant we can go to like great cities within those states rather than kind of doing it in the middle of nowhere because a big part of this is going to be opening up to anyone that wants to join for the first three miles. We're going to be doing

like a three mile loop in every single state. So anyone can come down, be part of it, and then me and the crew will take off and do the rest. The map that you shared with me showed all the, there's like dots on all the state locations, but it wasn't specific about where. And I was curious, like, are you just going to be, you know, coming in on a PJ and doing it around a landing strip and then taking off again? Or that's interesting, like trying to make sure that you're in some kind of urban center where people where it's accessible for people who want to yeah up in and join there are there are some that will be close to airstrips but we'll do it outside um but like california we're doing it in la we'll be doing it along santa monica beach miami will be doing miami beach we're in

dallas for texas um south dakota we're going to go past the uh the presidents the president heads what they called again oh yeah mount rushmore mount rushmore so we're taking in some epic locations obviously the big one in hawaii to start will be great great as well. We're in Honolulu. Are you going to run the Honolulu Marathon course? I don't know exactly yet. The course, the routes are being finalized. We've got them all through, but some of them need some editing. But like I said, they're going to be in major cities or interesting places in each state. You have, from looking at the map, it looks like there's at least five commercial flights, five or six, three private jet flights, 49 transfers, all other transitions are some mix of driving and flying. There's an interesting kind of doubling back at one

point, like you're in Ohio and then you're getting on a plane and flying to Arizona. The whole thing is you're starting in Hawaii and you're moving east, right, to end in New York City. But at some point, the logistical wisdom was we need to do this in order to make all of this work. Like, it really is like this jenga jigsaw puzzle sort of deal. Yeah, it's insane. The more you look at it almost, the more confusing. using it is, but the more it works out. It's, it's impressive what they've put together. Sometimes we have to be in certain places. Like there's, um, the biggest conference for private aviation in the US is in Vegas for the date we have to be there. So we're going to like run through

the convention center, get people going crazy about that. This is like prime for, this is like, you know, prime YouTube content. I assume you have a full film crew like documenting this whole thing. Yeah, we'll have, we'll have a team there as usual. This is a, uh, a high budget affair. Yeah, it must be. Goodwin as your partner. Like, who's paying for all of this? Goodwin are getting behind it, yeah. Do you have, I assume you have a bunch of other sponsors.

Yeah, I'm with Woop again. Well, I've been with Woop for, I've worn one of these since pre-COVID, so I've always worn them. Humantra and Electrolite company, we're going to do a collab product together with my own company, Riskyer, which will be cool. That's your sunglasses. Yeah, exactly. And then we're bringing out a full range of kit for the event itself.

I've got like Tour T's. You think of Metallica going on tour. We're going to have like quite rock and roll t-shirts with every single state. Like the merch stand in each state. Exactly. But we're also from those specific teas as well, we're going to do like a $10 donation from each sale to go to stand up to cancer as well. So there'll be some give back there as well. But yeah, it's going to be, it's going to be mega.

Once again, the motivation behind this is very much rooted in your relationship with your mom who passed away from cancer. and how has that kind of philanthropic aspect of what you do changed or or kind of matured over the course of the many ultra conquests that you've been involved in? Yeah, at the beginning, it was what got me into it because the Christmas after she passed away, I was in all sorts of mess, obviously. And I decided to get out of Christmas by running a marathon. and I raised money for McMillin Cancer Support, who she had raised money for before, helped me and my family through what they'd been through. So I went out on that marathon and raised like 20,000 pounds

and I had this light, bold moment of like, okay, I've just ran, which is something that's really helping me personally, like deal with the loss. But then at the end of it, there's this funding for an amazing charity, helping people. And then immediately I was like, what can I do next? Which then led to eight months later running the length of the UK, John, I go at Salan's End.

And for me, it's matured in a sense that I started running because I needed to. I had all this pent up aggression, anger, sadness. I was 23 at the time, so you mature enough to be able to make your own decisions, but I think as men, especially, we're not quite there on a level of maturity yet. So there was two very clear paths, one of absolute self-destruction, which I could have definitely done and been given like a free pass at, or the other one was to use it to celebrate her and the woman she was and how she raised me to be a man. So we've always raised money on the things we've done because then it's less like an egotistical adventure of like,

oh, look how great I am that I can run thousands of miles and it looks cool. Like the outcome is outside of myself and it can it can really help thousands, hundreds of people with the funding we make. So it makes it a beautiful end that's not. never quite going to be an end because I feel like I'll always be doing something in that realm. But this is the first time that you're working with stand up to cancer, right? I mean, they're kind of like the premier leading organization. Yeah, exactly. So it's not just support. It's also research trying to rid the world of this disease that affects one and two of us personally is if we're going to get it or that means that everyone's affected by it one way or another.

Like everyone knows someone that's had cancer, got cancer living through it. So anything I can can do to give back in in that world is a is a privilege um and yeah it's quite it's quite humbling to be able to do that as well it's the it's the best thing that's come out of anything i've done personally i've been able to deal with that loss and make it more of like a celebration now where at the start it was i was basically trying to beat myself up i was i was looking for a way of self-harm that wasn't too uh wasn't too scary to like people around me um that feels more like Sorry to step on your words. But just I want to kind of like double click on that a little bit.

Like it's one thing to grieve and be sad. But my sense is that there was a sense of anger or like confusion. There's something more going on there. Like that this, a lot of people, you know, suffer the loss of a parent at some point. But for whatever reason, like this seems like it landed extra hard on you. And I want to understand that a little bit better. Yeah.

Yeah, so outside of just losing your mum in any context, which is terrible, timing was bad, but also in our family, she was the least deserving. She hardly ever drank, never smoked. She was a nurse. She was active. She ate well. So for her to get it and people understand how I live and my dad loves going for pints and stuff, not saying that anyone else should have got it, but it was like it was a real sucker punch that

she was the one that got it, had to deal with it three times and then eventually passed from it. So, yeah, I had a lot of pent up anger. Why? Why her? We all say as like a family, if we could have taken it, we'd have taken it ourselves, like my dad, my brother and me. So, yeah, it led to me needing an outlet to get rid of that rage. But because I loved her so much and she was an amazing woman, I couldn't let it be destructive because then I'd have been using her as an excuse

for destroying my own life, which was unacceptable to me. Not exactly a great legacy for her. Exactly. It's not fair to her legacy. Yeah. Did your brother take it as hard as you did? Yeah, we did it in different ways. We're men, so we didn't really talk about it too much.

We've got, we've, as the journey has gone long, we have. That's just men like British men. Yeah, British men, for sure. But he's been involved in a lot of the things I've done. He understands it. He's grieved in his own way. But we've all found some level of peace or acceptance. You can't change the things that have happened.

you can only change how you move forward with it. And do you still every year on her birthday run the number of miles that she would be how she survived? Yeah, I sometimes do kilometers, sometimes do miles. But yeah, last week I did 62 miles for her birthday, which is outside of it, just being like good for what I've got training-wise. It's like a moment for me where the reason I love running is because it's an escape from being by a phone or having something to do. you're just free in your own world. So for those 62 miles or whatever, it took me 10 hours, I can just reflect, be with her, be out in nature, which she loved gardening and being out and about. So I get to have that, I get to have that, like, journey with her. So, yeah, it's a beautiful thing I do in a

recognition, and we raise some money again for stand up to cancer just through that. So it's like a little present that I'd give to her. So people can contribute to this on the GoFundMe. or directly to stand-up cancer? How does it work if people want to get involved and contribute? Yeah, there's going to be a full website and a big donation thing, going directly to stand-up to cancer through GoFundMe. But a really interesting thing we're doing, and I noted it a little bit earlier about gamifying it.

On the website, we're going to have leaderboards for the top states that have donated, the top individuals. And then there's also challenges that people can do. It's going to be running every day for 24 days. or running 50 miles in 24 days, which I think is going to link to Strava. So you can sign up to that. There will be a leaderboard for people's miles, but also people can fundraise as part of what I'm doing as well.

So people might have their own stories, which will celebrate along the way. So all of that will funnel towards this big pot that I'm doing, but everyone involved will be seen. And there's an example, like we're going to do these torties, but we're doing a specific one for stand up to cancer, where if you donate $100, you'll get a free t-shirt and then there's higher tiers to what you get. But yeah, we're trying, for me, this is like, this is a huge opportunity to raise a lot of money.

Like the amount of people that are involved having press, local press around the place, I really feel like I can make a big impact and we can raise a huge amount of money for stand-up to cancer. So, yeah, it's a privilege. It's also a pressure, not just doing the thing, which is obviously. quite hard already, but... Yeah, you're a steward of this movement and there's a responsibility to make it successful. This episode is brought to you by Airbnb.

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they'll be the website, but I suspect or imagine that, you know, in addition to having a documentary crew and at some point in the aftermath putting together there's some kind of like beautiful two hour, whatever, there's the kind of immediacy of social media and trying to tell the story as it's happening, you know? And I think you're riding a really interesting wave that we're seeing right now in the ultra-running world. Like there's so many interesting characters

and just outlandish performances that we are bearing witness to even in just the last like, you know, 12 months. Yeah, there's a lot. The whole world is now paying attention to this, you know, very tiny subculture of athletes in a way that didn't exist, like, the last time we sat down together. You know, like, you can run across Australia, and it's a big to-do, like, when you, you know, arrive in Bondi, just like it was for Ned Brockman or whatever. But not that many people were kind of following, like, if you weren't kind of already

coded for, like, that world, you weren't really watching it as it was unfolding. There's, like, kind of a big press thing and then it goes away. But now, because of like Max Joliffe and Rachel Entrican and like some other characters that are emerging on the scene, Mark Dowdell, like this whole backyard thing, like, which brought in all of the gym bros and the hybrid athletes. So like a whole other sector of like individuals and athletes and fitness freaks are like paying attention to ultra running. Yeah. In a really cool way. And so there is this kind of opportunity that's. for you right now with how you're going to tell this story that really, I think, could capture the hearts and minds and the imagination of, like, the entire world because it's so outrageous, but it's also flash, you know, you got the planes and you got, like, you have said, the last time you were here, I think I asked you like, how do you break it down the difficulty of these things

between like mental and physical? And you said it's 100% physical and it's 100% mental. But this is 100% physical, 100% mental and 100% logistical. Yeah. And 100% like being committed to telling the story at the same time. Yeah, it's like I said, it's the pressure, but I understand the position I'm in, which is why I want to throw the kitchen sink as it were and try and get the message out there as much as possible and raise as much money. It's not just a point-to-point thing. It is, as you say, it's pretty Hollywood what we're doing. Yeah.

And yeah, it's been the perfect melting part. I've obviously been doing this since I was, what, 20? So it's been nine years. And back then, before I did it, I didn't know what ultra running was. And now it's become this thing that most people now understand and people are doing incredible and crazy things. Ironically, Mark came out when I was running across Australia, America. Mark Doughto did?

Yeah. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah, he was one of the only people, well, there was a few people that came towards the end, but he was one of the early guys that came out. And then witnessing his journey and him just running nearly 400 miles in four days. the life it was is insane. And he doesn't, like you, like he's very different from you, but he doesn't fit the mold of like what you think an ultra runner looks like.

You know what I mean? He looks like a linebacker. Well, he used to play American football, didn't you? Yeah. Yeah. So it's interesting, but it also shows that how things used to, everything evolves, right? It's even, even you can talk about high rocks how they used to be like the CrossFit guys and now like professional runners are going in and beating all the time.

So it shows that even though ultra running has been around for quite a while, it's now evolving and changing and different people are doing it, which is beautiful. And it shows that anyone can do anything. Back in the day, a marathon was like the peak of human endurance. If you knew what an Ironman was, you'd understand how much bigger that was. But now it's like regular people. I consider myself a regular person are doing these amazing things. Yeah, you have Harvey Lewis full time. high school teacher, you know, who's just, you know, at his, what is he, 49 now or something like

that? Yeah. Still like, you know, he's the mentor to the next generation, but he still kicks their ass most of the time. And he does it with a smile on his face. And then you have like Mark Dowdell coming up, you know, under his, you know, kind of example. And acquitting himself with such maturity and poise, he's almost like a personal development guru. The way he shows up on social media is very empowering and like these are the the this is the new

class of athlete like where I can like celebrate social media because he's propagating such a positive message. And Rachel Lentricken the same like you know her wanting to do it from a place of joy and like like herself when she's crossing the finish line like these are like really powerful important messages that transcend just how insane the athletic performance aspect. of it is yeah it's becoming it's becoming more more it's been viewed by everyone now and it's good to have these different characters in elevating the sport yeah uh i i mentioned this before so i won't belabor it um on the podcast for people who have heard it but i was at trailcon recently and you know there's like a week of panels and like events leading up to western states up in tahoe um and a big kind of recurring

topic of conversation is like, what is the culture of trail running now? Because you have the OGs who are used to it being a certain way, a very kind of grounded granola, low-key, you know, no flash kind of experience. And their attachment to that as, you know, this sport has emerged. And like a trail con, there's just like, it's a commercial operation. Like every brand is there with booze and all kinds of stuff going. on and it's just changed a lot, but it's the people that define the culture, right? You can't, you can't dictate what the culture is. And you have to allow it to be what it wants to be based upon the people who are like inhabiting it, right? And it's a different sort of archetype

of individual now that is either ultra curious or kicking ass at the highest level in the sport. And it's not one thing. You've got the backyard ultras, we have what the kind of things that you do, you've got the hellicidabase and you've got like the you know the the the the kind of gold standard graces like bad water and moab and et cetera like there's such a diversity of like experiences and offerings yeah it keeps it interesting that way as well and that's why you can have different athletes from different backgrounds being good at different things i like the balance i like that the old stead are still there that won it that way and i think as an athlete or speaking to ultra running truly You shouldn't always be doing something and it being filmed and doing with all this other stuff.

Like the experience is the most beautiful thing. Obviously, a lot of the things I do are filmed. But the moments where I get most back from it are when I'm in the middle of nowhere on my own seven miles away from my crew. And I see something magical or have a memory of my mom from the past. So you still go through those experiences. And yes, if you're raising money or now it becomes a profession for people and money, like you have to obviously offer viewership to people. if they want it. But I think there always needs to be like a bit of both. But if you're not connected to that kind of spiritual experience of doing this, you're not going to last. You know, if you're doing

it to like have somebody follow you around with the camera, like you're not going to make it. It's too hard. It is too hard. You need a, you need a reason beyond yourself to really be doing it. I think if it was completely like ego driven, unless you are one of the sickest athletes out there and like, I'm going to be the best. But as our conversations have unled and having read your book and Dean's book. It was so interesting to me at this beginning, which is why I attached myself to it so extremely how a lot of people that get into Ultra have been through some kind of trauma in their life. And it's a vehicle for dealing with it because obviously that trauma never truly goes away, but you can kind of ride the world a little easier. So yeah, it is an interesting

sport that's continuously to change. And I also think that all these records that are being sent now, like the younger generation are getting it into it now so give it 10 15 years whatever any of us have done yeah it's going to be like smoked out of the war i think we're just at the beginning yeah it's super interesting but when you look at max jolus splits at bad water i can't even get my head around it like he's literally running like 730 8 minute miles for like most of that race and he never walked once yeah he's a great he's a great guy is a friend of mine as well and i've spoke to him since coolest. He, and he's cool as cool, he might be the only guy who can outmog you.

Yeah, no, I agree with that. Tattoes are crazy. Yeah. He looks like Chris Cornell. Yeah, I mean, you know, he's, you know, strikingly handsome. And the way that he creates these documentary pieces are like, they're really beautiful. Like, they're, you know, they're executed at such a high production level and keen sense of storytelling. Yeah, and he has a lot to do with that as well in our conversations.

Because he comes from a design background. He cares about the aesthetics of what he's doing. Yeah, he's a gangster. And he's proven it. 100%. He's proven it. And we had a conversation the other day and he was obviously congratulate him on Badwater. And he's like, yeah, it's great to shut all those people up online because obviously he wins Moab, king of Moab and then goes through some races where he DNFs.

And everyone gets on your back because of social media now. You're not the guy you were. This was a one-off. And then goes and absolutely smokes bad. bad water. Yeah, like uncorks, the performance of a lifetime. Incredible. But also it shows that there's so many variables in Ultra. When you run in over 100 miles or even 100 miles, there's so many things that can go wrong at all points. Your altitude, it's hot. You have 20 mile, 25 mile stints where you don't see anyone. So to be perfect and to win every single time is

really not feasible in this sport. And it shows that he went and put the work in. He did a lot of the heat training stuff, which I've been speaking with him about. And yeah, the flowers. Did you meet him when you did Moab? I met him just before that. But yeah, the same year, because that was, what was it two years ago now? Maybe three. Here's the thing about you, Will, on a surface level and in certain ways in the way that you show up on social media, you're living this kind of aspirational jet setting lifestyle of luxury. It's like Dubai, London, Paris, Berlin, New York, you know, five-star hotels and brunch and fancy dinners and, you know, uh, cold plunges and hanging out at the beach or, you know, on the Amalfi Coast. There's this polarity. Like, there is that

aspect of you that is unapologetically, like enjoying their life to the absolute fullest. And then there's the nose to the grindstone, hardworking, like humble, uh, servant aspect of you. you live your life in the same way an athlete trains on the polarities. It's like zone one and two or like zone five and six. You're never in this gray zone. But I think with that,

you are kind of courting some controversy in the ultra-running community, but I only know you as the humble, good friend who has, you know, a real like a deep spirit and a deep care for the people that, that, you know, you care about. And I don't know that that always

translates necessarily. And so I'm sure you're on that, you know, kind of on the receiving end of a fair amount of like antagonism online, which you seem to weather with a smile for the most part. But I would imagine it weighs on you. And I think in talking about Max, this is demonstrative of one of your finest qualities, which is that you're a lifelong learner. Like, you're not somebody who's like, I got it figured out. You're not operating from a place of ego when you first got interested in learning about the ultra world like one of the first people you called was Robbie because you saw him online and what he had done by running across the country and now he's one of your closest friends and you just came from Colorado like you basically

cohabitate with this guy you go on these fancy trips and then you go to this really small town in Colorado and you ground yourself and you get the training done and you're with like your best front. And you reach out to Max because you realize there's so much you can learn from somebody like that, especially with the heat training stuff. And how can I leverage what he decided to do in his training that would benefit me on this upcoming expedition? Yeah. Yeah, life is a big disparity for me. But I think I've always wanted to make the most of things. And then that really got heightened when I lost my mom of the whole thing of like tomorrow is not promised. So there's part of me that's like, I want to go and experience and do everything I can,

but then there's also a part of me that loves the grind, loves actually having some level of day-to-day practices that stay the same. But yeah, all of it, all of it is based around the loss and trying to make the most of things. And I love everywhere other than the middle. I like being at Moab, doing a 15-minute nap on the side of a trail, having not slept for like 32 hours. And then obviously I like being in the opulence and luxury of things. And it's fun. In the bath row, eating your poached eggs. It's fun to habitat, like, both worlds, whatever you're interested in.

I've always been interested in these things and now somehow figured out how to balance them. Sure, you might say I'd be a better ultra-athlete if I lived in the same place and trained. all year but my my thirst for life isn't just in in one realm I love doing that I love exploring that world but also yeah I want us I want to see what different cities are around the world you're not interested in being saintly or being perceived as some kind of you know pure role model no and I don't I don't feel like people should look up to me as as a role model either but one thing I would say is what I might what I might promote is

being yourself in any way, shape or form that you get to do that. You don't just hide and try and be in one box. If you're interested in something that isn't particularly normal in whatever world you in habitat, then I think that's a good thing. Like, you can connect with more people the more sides of you that you show. And somehow you can get more opportunities doing it like that as well. You are always unapologetically yourself. And I think that's a strength. You know, whether people like, you know, how you show up or not, you're not saying sorry for being who you are. And you're just standing in your power and in your strength. And I think that that is attractive, you know, and you're unflappable in terms of, like, if people have opinions about how you're living your lifestyle, like, that's about them, right?

But I think it creates a curiosity in the public. Like, I go on Chris Williamson's podcast and, like, he's not like he's like super into ultra running and he's like, what do you think? of Will Gooch, you know. It's like people want to know, you know. And I know you, like, I don't know you super well, but I know you well enough to know the real person, you know, and, and where I think people get confused about what you're really about. Yeah, I'm a small town kid, son of a nurse and a carpenter. Like, we always had food on the table. There's no opulence there. But I just always, I always, I always saw people doing amazing things and had this feeling like, It's like, why can't it be me?

I've met obviously a lot of interesting people like, to me, you're a superstar to me. But when I've met them, I've seen them on the human side rather than what they've done and what they've achieved. If I meet any kind of celebrity, I actually feel a bit sorry for them because even in my small experience of people knowing who I am when I'm out and about sometimes, it makes me uncomfortable. So I feel some level of, not pity, but some level of, you know, understanding for that, the most, interesting person I've ever met where I was kind of like, wow, what the fuck was Felix Bowman Garter, the gentleman that jumped out of space for Red Ball, unfortunately passed away. I think it was last last year. Yeah, not that long ago.

But for me, he is one of one. He's the only person to have done that incredible thing free falling from our space from a balloon. So that like, that blew my mind. But yeah, people, I just like to, I like to meet them on a human level and you might not like some of the things I do and I understand that. but I think there's more people supporting than there are trying to talk it down and I'm okay. I'm not hurting anyone. I think I'm putting out good things towards the world.

I'm trying to be myself. I'm not trying to hide or put a mask on at any point. So if you like it, great. If you don't, I also respect that and that's totally fine. Fuck off. Sometimes it's fuck off. Sometimes it's just like, yeah, whatever. I want to circle back to that in a minute.

But you said that you. that you have this kind of reflex like why not me yeah how do you have that like what did you do do to cultivate that or what about your upbringing contributed to you having that empowered sense of self versus an inner monologue that's like I could never do that I'm not really I'm not really sure I think it's just because most people before they achieve something are not like famous or don't have anything. They've grown up the same as we've grown up as children or whatever, obviously in different circumstances, but something within them made them great. And a lot of the time, it's just like a mindset. People talk about manifesting, putting things out there,

thinking about it and attaching themselves to it, and then it's more likely to happen. It's just always been within me in that sense. Not that I'm particularly talented across a whole bunch of things. Everything from me is just like, can I graft more than someone else to get where I want be, which is inherently what running thousands of miles involved. So I can't say there's been like there was like a key moment where I thought of that. It's just kind of blossomed in me from like an early age. On the subject of these challenges and and maybe even more acutely, this upcoming challenge being 100% mental, is there like a rigor or a certain practice where you're consciously trying to cultivate your mental toughness to handle this? Or, you know, like how do you? How do you? You know, like, how do you

you think about that and prepare yourself? I have the most simple phrase of all time. Can I take another step? The answer is always yes. Because it doesn't matter, unless you've broken your leg or something has gone terribly wrong, you can always take one more step forward in which you can apply to any part of your life. But having seen my own mom fight for a life, I was there when she passed away, the thing of seeing someone hold on to life is quite insane.

It's not a nice thing to experience, but it shows you what the human body is capable of, even right towards the very end. So I realize that I am not even close to that point. I'm not taking my last breath. So the act of taking one more step, even though it might hurt and often does over and over again, I can still do it. It's a very ultra realistic view of the position I'm in. Well, it's basically breaking it down to like a James Clear atomic habits thing. Like you don't have to worry about like the New York City Marathon when you're in the middle of Ohio. You just have to worry about what you're doing right now.

And can you take that next step? And that applies broadly to every aspect of life. Yeah. It's not a running thing. No, it's not. People think it's about whether they're considering their own relationship with change or transformation or trying to lose. 10 pounds or whatever it is, I think there's not enough emphasis on like the only time you can actually do anything whatsoever is right now. Yeah. And we're just thinking about like how are we going

to do that thing tomorrow or I should have done this other thing better yesterday. Yeah, we love, we love putting it off and we also love setting the intention maybe the day before or the hour before and then you have that reaction in your brain where you get you get the good feedback like you've already already done it. Yeah. And that happens. to me still. I still do, I still do these things. I'm never perfect through, through normal life. But when you force yourself into a situation where you're doing a challenge like this, there is no way out other than to finish. You don't, you can't put it off by sometimes. I actually this profound confrontation with self. I mean, that's like the real, that's the, that's the, that's the juice of the whole ultra experience. Like, you cannot escape your own weaknesses and whatever your mind is telling. Like, you are just like, you are just like. it's right smack in your face. And you got a, you got a fucking grapple with that. You are in every second.

It's a true serum. But the irony is when I do these things, I still feel lazy. So to people watching, there's no like enlightenment towards the end or during it, thinking you're fucking brilliant or whatever. What do you mean you feel lazy? How could you possibly feel lazy? I feel like I'm either not running fast enough or I'll get into an aid stop and I might stay two minutes too long.

But there is, I think it's because you're in, you're really in, flight of flight is a very highly stressful situation to put yourself into and that's why after i do these things outside of the physical strain it puts on your body like my all my systems are down when i finish these things after australia i was sleeping for 60 hours a day for a week so you really do go through a lot but yeah the feeling of lazy or i could have gone faster or i could have gone further is is always there but it's then also a driving force so i wouldn't say it's inherently bad, but it also kind of levels the playing field, or at least gives people an insight into that when you maybe do these things, you still don't feel like king of the world.

A huge part of the success or failure equation with this is going to be about how efficiently you're going to be able to recover in between these marathons, right? So I imagine there's a whole strategy around this and a team that is going to be joining you to attend to this. Like, what does that look like? Like, this is literally on the stopwatch too. Like, you have an hour, you know, before, like, we're going to, okay, we're going to get on this plane. It's a 30-minute flight. We're going to land this.

And you're going to have to get out and get right to it, right? And so what can we do in that period of time to get you ready? I'm laughing because it's- It's like Formula One. It's a lot less than people maybe consider it. And I think with recovery in general, I think this is just. just like a marketing thing. It's like nothing is going to help me that much. It's like supplements. There are supplement to what already should be good. So I've never had a physio on anything I've done.

I've never had like a team doctor. Part of the reason for that is I feel like they're either going to tell me something I don't want to know, like something's actually wrong. And in my head, if I don't know what's wrong, I just have to push through it hurts, whatever. Or they're going to take up too much time by massaging me for 20 minutes. So, There has to be a happy medium with that, though. Yeah, we're quite a circus. Like, if things start to go wrong, I don't have a doctor, but like Robbie and Jason, having done these things before,

know how to strap an ankle. So there's that. And then really the only things I use consistently is like the Norma Tech boots, the compression sleeves. I think they're great for moving blood flow around. Even when I'm in ultra-races, if I don't have them, like an aid stop or whatever, if it's 60 miles in, I'll put my legs in the air and you can feel like the blood draining from them

and you'll massage them. So a similar kind of thing, but we're going to have to, I'm going to have to learn how to nap quite well again. Because like you say, when I've got the three in a day, some of them I'm finishing at like four o'clock in the morning and then getting in a car and driving two or three hours and then it's like, okay, get out and do another one. And when your nervous system is that jacked up, you'd think it would be easy to fall asleep after these things? It's actually quite difficult. It is. But also I think the experiences of what I've done before have made it easier. it's definitely a learned practice of being able to kind of sleepish on cue. So I'll be listening to binaural beats and stuff like that when I'm in an RV or maybe if I can on a commercial flight, I don't know.

But yeah, sleep is king. Fortunately, like I've said before, there's these little buffers where there's some times where I might have like a seven-hour window so I could sleep properly. But on these events, Australia I average, I think it was just over five hours a night. for 34 nights. And what's the fueling strategy? Fueling is, I eat whole foods as much as possible. Like you think it's just like a grab of calories in any way, shape, of form you can, or using things like gels.

But they all have like a, well, your gut basically has a shelf life of how much it can tolerate of less than healthy things. Or gels, for example, like I'll use them for a marathon, but I don't feel great afterwards. So yeah, I'll be trying, I'll probably be burning depending on if it's a two or three marathon day from about 6,000 to probably 9,000 calories a day. So it's getting fuel as frequently as possible, especially on the journeys in between. Usually I see the crew every seven miles and have like a what you consider probably a meal, even if it's a shake. But on this, because I have the five-hour window, we have to kind of reimagine that. It's, I will see the crew probably every seven miles.

We'll do the three miles first with everyone that wants to come down and then seven, seven to finish. So I'll be probably lightly fueling on those bits and then a conscious effort in the travel between to pack on as many calories as I can. One of the things you're doing is heat training. Max has you like queued up on how to do that. Obviously his experience preparing for bad water paid off tremendously and he's this huge proponent of it. So you've made these videos where you're putting on the same like heat suit and the whole deal, but you're doing it at altitude. I got influenced. You got influenced by an influencer.

But he's so handsome. He's great. Yeah. So how can you not be influenced by him? Yeah. And the proofs and the put in life. Sure. So, so, you know, you got the core suit on and then you got the hoodie on on top of it.

You're running at altitude doing this. How long have you been doing this? Have you seen benefits from this? Or what is the experience and what exactly are you? you doing like layout like exactly how this is different from normal training and what you're trying to accomplish so I've done two sessions so far because I actually had a call with a thermo I don't know so I'm an expert in heat training that was part as part of the core team so I had a call with them I think it was the start of last week and they were like introduce it slowly

but I'll be doing two to three heated sessions a week of 50 minutes and then I'll be doing two passive ones, which means being in a sauna. So the idea is you run five, six miles first, so your core temperature rises and then you put the suit on and the hoodie and everything else. And then you go out for up to 50 minutes, literally cooking. Yeah. But the experience, I was actually surprised. But you got to work up to that. Yeah. You can't just go out and do 50 minutes. The first one I did though, I did seven miles easy and then put it on. And then I did 45 minutes. and I was a bit sort of dizzy towards the end, but it felt good. The thing is being in Colorado at that altitude is it's super, super dry.

So I think the experience of me doing it down here in California, I'm going to do one on Santa Monica Beach tomorrow, will be very different. So we're going to continue to speak to them, but I have like a, I do my own training program for this. We have a week of, I need to get to 100 miles one way or another. But within that, there's a heat, there's two heat sessions. and there is a speed session or tempo because I need to be able to have the leg carry over

to be doing back to back to back to back to, etc., five-hour marathons. It's quite slow considering, but to do 15 rows. But the idea is to make the body more resilient so that it can function as your core body temperature escalates. And so in these sessions, do you have that, like, the core thing that goes on your chest strap that's measuring your body temperature

and you're also paying attention to, you know, how dehydrated you're becoming. So that informs like your electrolyte and fueling strategy. If you know how much sweat loss you're experiencing. And this also is going to depend upon like humidity versus dryness. Yeah. Actually, it's pretty humid out here in L.A. Like, incredibly, it's usually never humid. So I would take advantage of the weird humidity that we're experiencing here because, you know, heat in bad water, which is very dry, is going to be different than heat.

in Athens, Georgia, you know, where it's just humid is all get out, right? And how does your body respond to those different types of heat? Yeah, and I'm going to obviously be going through all of it. Considering we're doing it October to the very beginning of November. It's cooling down. It's probably the best window. It's not, but in talking to Max as well, he said, even if I was going to do like a cold race, I'd still implement it. And the whole thing of like heat training is increasing blood plasma. And also it teaches your body to basically regulate its temperature better. So your core temperature isn't rising as quickly. And then it's also cooling down quicker after that.

So that improves recovery. And then in turn, it improves everything cardio-wise. You can train again quicker afterwards, et cetera. And then if you're in heat, then you're going to deal with it a lot better. So if you crush this challenge on the heels of Max Joliffe rewriting the record book at Badwater, I can see this being a catalyst for a whole new trend of people like exploring. heat training. Like, people have always done this to one degree or another.

Like old school bad water athletes would put a treadmill in the sauna. Yeah. And run. But now this is just adding more science into it and experimentation. Yeah, that's what was kind of interesting to me. Like, you've always seen people do it. You've seen Rocky Balba famous scene, grey sweatpants, sweating through it. So it's always been a thing.

But like you say, there's now a level of scientific and detail to it. You get like a heat adaptation, school with this core device as well. So it's interesting. And like we said earlier, like how much better athletes are going to become in this space that has been traditionally underfunded, undervalued. People have just kind of done it in an exploratory way. Now it's really becoming professional. The most important resource we have is time. And we need to really understand how important that is because most of us are wasting too much of it. What are you thinking? Andrew. Well, shoot, man. We just checked our screen time, and apparently I'm spending six and a half

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your attention, and get that money. And they'll pay you for using your phone less. pay you to do the thing you know you want to do anyway. Yes, sir. This episode is brought to you by Woop. To celebrate turning 60 in a handful of weeks, I am planning to guide a disabled athlete at the New York City Marathon, which is quite the leap from where I was not long ago, slowly recovering from spinal fusion surgery.

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You did Moab. You've done a lot of things. Like you've worked your way up to earning your kind of like right to embark upon what you're about to do. How has your training change or evolved? Like what have you learned from the mistakes you've made in the past or, you know, how you've approached these other races in terms of like how. how you're preparing for this?

Or has it always just been like I do this thing and it works for me? Now, to begin with, I just would totally make it up. And to a certain degree, I'm making it up now, but it's a lot more informed than it was. Before it was just about high mileage and doing strength training, which I've always done. And I think is a key if you're a 10K runner or doing ultramarathans. Like, you need to have a level of strength protection around the joints, etc. So I'm just a lot more informed doing these heat sessions, doing speed sessions when you think I'm running over a thousand miles.

You think speed wouldn't be that important. But I need turnover. When my legs are thrashed, I still need to be able to run. You're still doing track workouts. Yeah. Even though you're unlikely to run faster than a 10 minute per pace for this entire thing. So like walk me through the wisdom of that. Like why do that at all?

It's all about turnover. Like the best ultra runners will still be doing speed work. You can't just go out and plod 10 minute miles every day and do high mileage. You're going to get more out of doing less miles but having some specific sessions in there that are tempo or speed than you are doing 140 miles at the same pace. You need different inputs. Simuli. Different stimuli.

Actually, like last weekend we hiked Chavano, one of the 14ers in Colorado with Robbie. And that was a 10-mile experience of going extremely slowly. But that's the kind of feeling I'm going to be having on day 14, where I've run a few hundred miles already and my legs feel extremely taxed. So how do you replicate that in a training setting and then also be ready for it when it comes in the reality of the challenge? What is the balance of strength training to traditional run training? And how does it change as you get closer to the starting line of a big event? I always do one session a week, even with the mile,

quite high like it is now. So I'm doing over 100 miles every week. And then the two weeks before, I will switch and do two, maybe even three sessions a week while I'm in that kind of taper period. So I'm trying to load up on strength. And also I'll be eating a lot more. So I don't go into it sort of emaciated or whatever because I need something to lose when I'm on that start line. Sure. Yeah, you need that. But you also don't want to be logging around a bunch of extra body weight, I've done any other things. Big shoulders and chest that are only just going to get tight and demand, you know, like resources.

Yeah, I haven't trained upper body this entire year. Not at all. I've done one pusher. You're a genetic freak then because your physique is insane. Yeah, I do a lot of core work and there'll be like a lot of like farmers carries and things like that. So I'm still gripping and holding weight in my arms. But it's kind of a frustrating thing.

I think when I'm older, I'll love it because, you know, being strong and stuff is great for longevity. but through my running career, it's actually been quite fucking annoying. I've always got a big chest and things that are completely unnecessary. Do you like a winter bulk and then you taper off of that as you progress your running volume and stay enough in contact with it so that you're maintaining, you know, adequate strength for the purpose of, you know, ultra running performance? No.

No. I could say, like my years are often geared around like a specific event or a specific race. Yeah. When I finish. Let me just hold on a second. So just so we're clear when Will says that, like my life is oriented around a specific event or a race. Most of these things are events, quote unquote, events. These events are the Monaco Grand Prix, Paris Fashion Week, New York Fashion Week, the Venice Bienale.

You know, like this is what we're talking about, right? I was talking about races specifically. Okay. But yes. There's a lifestyle event piece. Yeah. And then there's the racing event piece. Yeah, usually I do something big every two years.

So this opportunity came up after Australia, which I finished last May. You're completely destroyed afterwards. Like I took the rest of the year off, didn't really run too much. And then immediately got into a marathon block for London this year. What did you go? You were trying to go 245. Yeah, I did a 247 something, which was, I think, a 11-minute PV or something. So it was good.

but that was also like a nice lead-in to then really up in the miles because I'd had that seven, eight months of kind of doing nothing other than enjoying myself and drinking and then straight back into the serious stuff. But yeah, my years are just like constantly changing. So I don't feel like I have any kind of real program of maintenance. I like running so I got under, I like going to the gym, so I do it. I don't want to be overweight. I want to be able to move freely. So there's There's always some element of that in my practice, but there is no like clear intention until I'm like, okay, I'm doing mob in eight months. How are we going to do a training camp for that? In doing a forensic analysis of this route and all the logistics that go into this and the

the just very tiny margin of error, I mean, I think it's easy to say like, well, we have a four-day buffer, but like, you know, maybe you have like a two-day buffer. Who knows? You know what I mean? but there has to be specific pain points along that route. Like when you look at it, where do you see like the most constriction? Like, oh, that one's going to be really tough to pull off. It's when I do the three, two, three. There's one example where I've got a triple double, then triple close together. So that will be the biggest test because I don't know if you've got the states in front of you there.

So the pinch moment is day nine. you're going to do three and then you're going to do two and then you're going to do three again yeah see to me what looks very difficult is october 30 so at the very tail end of this thing you're going to do massachusetts vermont and new hampshire in one day yeah and you're going to be going into the new york city marathon just absolutely tanked yeah it's yeah it's it's interesting because i am due to arrive in new york i think at three a m So the race starts a few hours after that. So you're going to go right from the airstrip to the starting line, basically.

Yeah, I think we drive that section, though. Oh, you do? Yeah. But either way, it's going to be interesting because when I did the similar thing, 4830, 40, 48 marathons, 48 counties of England, 30 days, I finished the London Marathon, and I P-Bed. I did a 306. So that was my P-B at the time.

That's where you just realize the body is just a magical instrument. Yeah. It's almost like the body is saying to you, like, oh, now I finally get it at the end. Like, I figured it out. Yeah. You know, and it's as capable of astounding things. I mean, I remember when I did Epic Five, which is just a, you know, kind of small example of what you're doing. Like, the fifth day, I felt the best.

Yeah. It doesn't make, it doesn't make physiological sense. But a lot of people that do these things get fitter during it, like Iron Cowboy. The first few days your body's like... Yeah, but he was absolutely falling apart at the end. He was falling apart of the end. That was extreme. It was a close call there for a minute.

Yeah. But it is funny how like the first few days or I've had experience of the first nine days across Australia, which were absolutely horrendous, your body's in shock like, you know, what are we doing? When you've done it before, it's a little bit less shock. But then afterwards there's like this, it's like your shoulders drop and everything becomes less stiff and it's okay, this is what we do now. mind, body, everything seems to be working together in a beautiful, more fluid way. And of course, you have like bumps along the road. But it's incredible when you force your body through your mind and spirit to do something, how eventually it's like, okay, and you work together. I have this crazy thing where I talk to my body parts when I'm doing these things. I'll like thank my feet at

the end of the day. Tell me more about this. Or if my, it actually happened when I did, and I go at Salan's End, Phil Griffin, who, um, who filmed the whole thing, told me about a practice he did. And I just, I just took it in my own way. And whenever anything hurt, like, it would definitely be like hip flexes or whatever, I'd be thanking like the quads or the glutes and be like, thank you for taking the strain. The hip flex is a, uh, have gratitude for that. And I'd, I'd always be like towards the end, like, don't worry, we've only got a few more days left. I need you to like give me everything for these few days. And then it's massage time, horizontal we're going to be great but yeah it's interesting to disassociate your own body from like

your your mind like there are different there are different there's conversations always happening um but it was uh it was always a beautiful practice for me that i've continued to do never really spoken about that much but it's just a a natural thing i've done and i do really think it helps it's like a gratitude practice i mean you can do that with respect to your inner monologue also if you you start to hear that voice saying, you can stop, it's okay. It'll still be good. And you can be like, thank you for your input. Yeah. You know, but like I'll take it into consideration. But like right now, like, you know, I know what you're trying to do. You're trying to protect me. But like, it's just not necessary right now. And like, I'll, I'll check back in with you later. Your point has been

raised. I've heard it. Yes. Right now we're, we're not going to go with your point of view. Right. I know you have my best interest at heart, you know. Yeah. Like I appreciate. you, you know, rather than like, shut the fuck up. Yeah. I sometimes do that too. Mm-hmm. I think I... Sometimes it's necessary.

I kind of get inspiration from all forms. Mm-hmm. Whether I'm angry, when I'm happy. There's the physical, like, pain points along this way, like, backing up these, you know, these three marathon days. But there's also logistical pain points, I would imagine, where the margin of error is very small. Like, if we don't finish this and be here by this time, like, we're going to miss this flight. We're not going to be able to get to the next place in time where we have enough time to actually accomplish what we need to do tomorrow.

And that's where the precision and the military kind of like focus on keeping you on track is going to be important because you're just trying to do the thing. Somebody's got to keep you on the rails to make sure that like you're on schedule the whole time. Yeah. There's like no moment where you can just kick back because it's a domino effect on the rest. You threaten the entire operation. Yeah, I could. You fall behind. You can't really catch up.

No, it's pretty much impossible, but that's also why it's so amazing. And the only reason we can do it is because of Goodwin's influence and their help. They'll have people off the scene. We've got, we're going to have a captain in every single state that can accept, like, things we need in the in the buildup. So they might get sent some food. They'll get sent some, like, merchandise that they can give up. But there's a Goodwin employee managing each and every state.

So we have someone on the ground ready to do stuff. And this is what they do. Logistics is their business, right? AI, but human as well, but everything is funneling into being as seamless and as professional as possible. And if things go wrong, they'll hopefully, I'm pretty sure I have absolute confidence in them. They will figure that out or something like that. Yeah.

So it's very, everything is basically live in time going on all the time. Do you have contingency plans? Like, okay, let's say, like some unforeseen variable interferes with this. We're not going to make this flight. We're not going to do this. So there is like a plan B that takes you on a whole different route to accomplish this on time. They have some other plans, like a plan B, plan C, et cetera. I just haven't asked to see them.

I don't need that in my head. I'm doing it this way. We're going plan A. It's going to work. I'll run faster. Yeah. etc, et cetera. So. And this time you have the Guinness Book of World Records on board.

Like there's buy-in. Like you've appraised them that this is what you're attempting to do. It's been vetted. Like you're operating on a different level professionally in terms of like how you're tracking this to immunize yourself against some of the attacks that you've had to weather in the past around your performance. Which is all fair enough. So Guinness have made it an official challenge or record that I can do.

There is still some stuff we're doing with the licensing, but it's all moving in the right direction. Actually, recently, I actually got the FKT across Australia. Right. I wanted to talk about that. I mean, this is the lead into that. There's a lot of, you know, I know that you've suffered. I know that Robbie has taken this really hard. Yeah, just all the criticism.

that you were on the receiving end of like in your in your past attempts. I mean with crossing America with, you know, how well are you actually tracking it? This guy showing up on the course. We talked about this the last time you were on the show. People questioning your heart rate data when you were running across Australia. There's countless Reddit threads about this and a lot of discourse, let's say, you know, and a lot of acrimony and a lot of questioning. So where are you at with that now?

What is it that you want to say about all of that? Well, firstly, the burden of proof seems to just keep going up and up and up because of social media and people seeing it. Back in the day when someone ran across the US and got the record, there was nothing to do with heart rate. If you wanted to do a Guinness World record, you had witness statements. So the burden of a proof has improved or gone up. But these, the thing, Guinness, FKT, they have their regulations, their professionals. They look at things in the most professional way and they are the gold standard between them. So some random people online saying my heart rate is too low and doesn't match up.

To me, it's just because they can't believe it because they can't do it themselves or they have some kind of ill feeling towards me because of like you said, the kind of the life I live, but then also the levels of athleticism I can go to. So we've always tried to do what we thought was best or the most. When America happened, that's when it really like cranked up. I was like, I didn't know. Who was that guy who like flew in? Will Cockrell. Yeah.

He had an issue with me because his friend Bruce Tuller had the British record. No one gives a flag fuck who's the fastest Brit to run across America. It's who's the fastest person to run across America. We just use that to make it. He was very committed to maligning you. Yeah. Yeah, he wants to see my downfall. And where is he at with all of this now?

I still been messaging a bit about what we're doing. He had a problem with me saying that it was then going to be 24 days instead of 20. Like I had to stick to what I said originally. It's like we were still planning it. So we try and do the best we can. Like across Australia, I had a live tracker on me at all times. I've obviously got the watch. So it's like if anyone wants to turn up at any point,

see where I am, which a lot, over 100 people did across Australia, they can do that. But what, what level do I have to go to and take on expense of proving that we're doing this thing by live streaming or inviting a judge out that I have to pay to be there for 34 days? Like, it's, it's mental. Like, live tracker, uh, you know, all the Garmin data, maybe, you know, backup garments or whatever you're using to track your, you. metrics and all of that. I mean, is there anything more that you would need? Like, I don't know what the expectations are with Guinness and everybody else. Like, what is it that they want to see you do that would sufficiently calm them down? Well, those guys are all okay with it. FKT and Guinness

are fine with what I've applied for the information I've given. Like, FKT will look at the cadence along with the, like, my splits, etc. and they're like all of that matches up exactly as it should do your wrist heart rate data might be skewed but when you're wearing something for 16 hours a day running every single day is it going to be totally accurate do i need to wear an ECG when i do this thing so we have complete yeah i mean the chest strap data can be at times unreliable also i was on the treadmill this morning and i noticed like oh my my hurry this is this is not right right you know based on perceived effort like what it was telling me i was like this is I need a new heart rate monitor or something because this is like all over the

place. Yeah, sometimes you'll move your wrist strap or I'll like tighten it. The wrist is always tremendously unreliable. But yeah, the thing is it's like what fucking more do you want from us? Like we're broadcasting it all out there. You can see where we are at all times. For America, we're obviously taking it to another level. I will wear two watches. So we have like a backup Strava account that's you can see that I'm definitely doing the distance. And because it's so construed of doing a marathon distance in each. state. I need two forms of distance and then obviously whichever watch is the furthest. So one might be at like 26.2 but the other one might be at 26.1. So I'll go to use the other one and then continue to go.

Like I said, we've got an open door policy for the first three miles of every single run so people can come down. The course is in the final 5K also, right? I think we're just going to do the opening. I'm just opening 5K. But then all of my routes are going to be. visible as well that I'm taking. And I'm going to have the live tracker on me so at any point you can pull up and check if I'm running. All right. So what do you really want to say to the haters out there? I just fucking get a life really. I mean, what I would also say is thank you because all of their attention has only just built into everything I'm doing. So the more attention I get, the more people saying like, well, it's actually a very small, small section of people that say are fake

things, but it all goes towards the machine of this being professional, me doing bigger and better things, me having the opportunity to do what I'm about to do. So inadvertently, even though you're trying to take me down, you're actually raising me up even more. Yeah. It's funny in the comments when you see like people that I know or just strangers that are like backing me up. the Strava ones across Australia were insane. Do you engage with this or you're just, you know, kind of vicariously? I don't have the time. I'm running 16 hours a day and then I have to sleep as soon as I can afterwards.

But I mean in the aftermath and you're kind of going through it? No, not really. I don't really look at look back at a whole load of things. Like I never watch the videos of what I've done before. I recently started watching the America thing again. I haven't watched this since I did it. I've never listened back to a podcast I've done. For me, it's like moments in time that I was in and is beautiful and I enjoy it,

but the whole thing of looking back, I don't know. I think I'll do it eventually when I'm older and I'm maybe out of this world to see what I've done and how it's shaped to I've become. But yeah, the day-to-day, it's like I'm living in today and also seeing what's next. Is there a sense of anxiety as you get closer to the date? or is it just enthusiasm? Like on this mantra of like one more step, like trying to break it down into like,

okay, what do I have to do today? Obviously alleviate some of that stress and pressure, but it's so daunting. I would imagine, you know, like you might be waking up in the middle of the night occasionally saying like, what did I get myself into? This is insane.

Or no. No, I don't. I'm excited. It's like it's an opportunity to do something great to see all 50 states. it's any point in your life is cool. I'm obviously not going to see a whole lot of it. It might be five or six hours, but it's such a big opportunity that who knows if it will ever be done again. Somehow I'm the man that's going to be going out and doing it. So there's a level

of privilege. There is a level of pressure behind it because I'm representing like stand up to cancer and I want to do a good job for them and raise as much money as we can. I'm always representing my mum. So there's an element of that as well. But the overall, Overriding feeling is one of joyous curiosity of what's to come. I love adventure in all forms. And this is pretty pinnacle of what I've done so far. Yeah, I mean, I think that's the best mindset to be in, right? To be able to enjoy it or appreciate it while it's happening.

Yeah. And not be fixated on crossing the finish line in New York City. Yeah. And also, I know it's going to be terrible at times, but that's also why I do it. This is what you're signing up for. Yeah, that's what you want. Like to go through something hard and to get out of the other side is the ultimate goal

of most things and the feeling of being worthy or earning something through hard work for me is amazing. So I get to do that again in those really dark moments. It's like, how do I get out of that? Do I learn something? Do I go back on something I've done before? But it's always a test and you're only as good as, your last day or in this case like like your last marathon like nothing before it matters nothing matters

after it when i'm in it it's do i have it do i have the dog in me today to to get the to get it done and then we'll do tomorrow tomorrow setting aside the philanthropic aspect of this uh cancer awareness and raising money for research and care etc uh and understanding your disinterest in in being considered any kind of like role model. You are at the same time like stewarding a message around human potential and capability. So outside of the cancer aspect of this, like what is it, what is what is the message that you want people to receive who are going to follow along on this? Like what what is it that you want them to feel and believe as a result of you tackling

such a difficult challenge? I just, I want him to be less scared. I think a lot of us move through life with fear of losing something, not being enough, and a lot of the time fear stops us from chasing our dreams or chasing our goals. So I'm just trying to be a voice for, I'm going to go and do this thing. The outcome is not guaranteed. There are so many variables and so many things that could go wrong, but I'm still going to go into it with like a level of confidence that I can get this done

because I'm putting my mind to it. There's so much of me invested in this that we can do way bigger things than we ever thought of. Like I say, I'm from a small town in the middle of England. This conversation right now was not part of my bingo card. And basically 95% of the rest of my life wasn't either. So, yeah, get out and chase something. It doesn't have to be running, but do it without fear. And it's not like you came up as a runner.

You were a rugby player running came later in life. and it came as a way of managing your grief. Honestly, it wasn't like, oh, I'm going to become a runner and become this competitive athlete. It's just, that's what it served you for at that time. And it was a natural outgrowth. It wasn't like, I'm going to get into this. And then eight years from now, this is what I'm going to be doing. Like, I think people think that someone like yourself or people that are achieving at a high level in their respective,

discipline made a plan, you know, long ago and whiteboarded out the whole thing and they're just like in lockstep with that plan. And maybe that occurs with some people, but I think more often than not, when it's inspired by some kind of genuine emotion, you're just kind of following that and you're making space for these magical things to come into your life. So it's more about an openness than it is about goal setting necessarily. Yeah, I'd agree that on. percent there was no there was no plan when I got into it I never saw past running John O'Grath Salon's end and then after that it gave me like a bit of confidence and maybe I could explore this more which led to 4830 which led to the US which led to

Australia etc etc so yeah I think it's it's not being closed off to what the world is doing because the world's always changing everything is changing together and yeah everything I do is explorative I I love the relationship that you have with Brabby. Yeah. So I want to hear more about what that relationship is like and what role he plays in your life. Well, I actually had quite an emotional chat with him.

I think it was before Moab. And I basically said to him, I was kind of crying when I said it, but I needed to get it across of like how important he is to me. I said I lost my mom in the general. mannary and I was I had lost such a huge part of my life there was a gap there was a gaping hole and then I truly feel like she sent Robbie to me as like an angel to be able to take this young young adult that was had this dream of doing something that you shouldn't have been able to do but also be a voice of reason and I see very similar like qualities and characteristics between them. Robbie has been so giving to me and always got behind what I did. And his enjoyment or his gratification out of it is through me completing it.

My mum was very much in that vein as well. It was like, how do I, how do I allow my son to be free and do the things he wants to do and then celebrate his achievements if he has any? So yeah, me and my relationship with Robbie is extremely special. Like I say, I feel like my mum left and he arrived to fill some of that. gap and he's really been a steward of taking me from this fucked up 23 year old and then guided me through everything even like I said I didn't have a plan and maybe neither did he he's really like held my hand through that entire experience and allowed me to achieve what

I've been able to achieve because honestly without him I would have failed John Ogoe-Selan's end there was a time on that where I had erupted a ligament of my ankle going through this field And I got back into the wagon and I was like destroyed. My ankle was like the size of a football. No one else could tell me anything because they hadn't done anything. But I saw this Robbie Ballinger character is this larger than life, amazing guy who'd ran across the US recently. So what he says holds a lot of weight for me. And he was basically like the schedule's too tight.

You will figure it out. Your ankle will learn how to move again. It's like, but you have to get out and do it now. And in any other situation with anyone else in the world telling me that, I'd have told him to fuck off and I'd have canceled it for the day. It might have taken me an extra week or I'd have never done it and I wouldn't be here now. So that's the level of impact is out of my life.

Other than just being a general like sage and mentor, like what are some other pieces of concrete advice that he's given you? Concrete advice. To keep you, to keep this, you know, this. bright-eyed, occasionally wayward young man. He's helped me on the wayward side as well, because he had a rule when we were going across Australia, which I've always implemented, which is always one beer sometimes two, never three. So there's, we're quite, it's quite like a pirate operation, like we're, we're kind of all

over the place, but we like to have fun in the, the ridiculousness of what we're doing. Yeah, you'd finish the day and you're like, I'm going to have a beer, like, why not? Like, why is it have to be like just all hardness and suffering? Like, there is a different way to experience this. It's just an element of that that takes you out of what you're doing. And in a lot of society, if you've had a tough week at work, you go to the pub on a Friday and you have a beer. You've done something good. So that allows me to, like, disassociate with what I'm doing.

And also as like a tight-knit crew, we'll, like, have dinner together and it feels... Your nervous system can... Yeah, and then I just relax and then, yeah, take my head out of what I'm doing. because it's so extreme and in my life and the way you see it, it's like I have to enjoy things along the way. I can't be, I'm never going to be training and doing the same thing for 12 months. Like the athletes I love from the past and people I can think of like Dennis Rodman. He was, he couldn't shoot, but he defended like a dog and the coach would let him go to Vegas and do his thing, bluff some steam. He wasn't afraid to enjoy his life. Exactly. He was on the far end of

that extreme, I think, maybe to his detriment. Very. But those kind of athletes, I think it's just like people need to be managed differently. People have different, like, kinks and things they need or they're interested in. And yeah, I like people that do things that own way, like we've said about me being unapologetic myself. Like, I really love like Ben Felton, who's Ben is running on Instagram, known him for years. He's so dedicated to running every day and being like a professional.

Like I just love the way he promotes his stuff and he is himself. I feel the realness of someone. And I also feel like the fakeness of holding things up. And I'm going to go and do all major marathons in a year so I can TikTok it. Who are the other people out there that inspire you in different ways? Max is a big one. Max is great. We spoke about obviously Mark earlier as well.

What he's doing amazing and also to have seen him come out on the US. just like this random guy turns up, and now he's doing that shit is incredible. Who else is it? Obviously, Robbie. Truitt Haynes, I think he's brilliant. I love. He's another guy who's unapologetically himself

in a cool and interesting way that brings a whole other swath of person into this world. Exactly. Running in his jeans and the whole deal. Yeah, it's crazy. It's performance art on some level, but it's coming from a genuine place. Exactly. So yeah, I like these like movers and shakers that are doing interesting things. And I like people that set big lofty goals. Even if they, even if you don't eventually make it, like get out your comfort zone. Right. Truitt saying like he's going to, he's going to, he wants to qualify for Olympic trials. Yeah. Yeah. Insane. And a lot of people saying that's impossible. You're way to, you have way too much muscle. You're way too big. Like there's a huge like every minute after a certain point becomes exponentially harder to shave off your marathon time. And he is like out of.

of his mind thinking he's going to be able to improve that much in this amount of time. And we'll see. Yeah. But he's documenting it and he's being transparent about it. And he seems like unaffected by that. It's just it's attention farming on some level. But it's an interesting story that I think the average person can understand like, oh, I see this guy.

He looks different than these other guys. He's trying to do this thing. I guess that's a hard thing to do. And now I'm invested in seeing whether he can do it or not. Yeah. Yeah, I like people having a crack, whether they make it or not. And yeah, just go for it. And then another guy who's also like an actual professional is George Mills.

It's one of the fastest, like British and European like 5K runners. And I've sought his counsel quite a lot over the years. Oh, that's good. So you're getting elite pro counsel from one of the best in the world. Yeah, because also when I was doing London, when I was in Tokyo for quite a while before I did that, which was actually. good because of the start of the year, I'd been in Dubai and then Bali and Indonesia, so it was very hot, very humid. And then I got to Japan, I was like, I still need to do some kind of heat training. And he was the one that told me about getting in a 40 degree bath for 20 minutes. And he was

sending me all these photos from like the ones he'd made himself. But yeah, having that like, elitist grew up, grew up doing track and field, like from a young age, like all that experience he's had. Now obviously being great at what he does. Like, you get, you get different. different, you get different information from someone like that than even like Max doing the heat suit stuff. Max is kind of new to it. True, it's new to it. You could say I'm new to it even though I've been around for eight, nine years in this game, but that's like the old school professional running information that I get. Is there anything else you're doing in training that is counterintuitive or different or experimental? Some of the time I lean into not fueling.

like um faster training uh killian jorne like i remember reading his book above the clouds is it and him being like a kid and his mom giving him like 250 million is water to go and run a marathon so i do a lot of i do i do both because i now understand the need in training your gut to deal with high levels of high volumes of food etc so sometimes i'll go out on an empty stomach and try and test the body so i don't need as much but then i also realize i have to do the opposite and sometimes get into what I'm going to be doing, like eat a heavy meal and then go out running afterwards. Yeah. The faster training is good to train your body to operate efficiently without a constant, you know, fuel input. Yeah. And by doing that, you realize, like, you don't

have to bring all this stuff with you, you know, if you're going out for a two hour run and you're at a certain level of fitness or whatever. Like, you can manage it. It's fine. It will impair how well you recover for the, if you have a big workout the next day, you'll pay for it then, but you'll be able to do that workout. In this event that you're doing, like, you're not going to be doing any of this. Like, you're always, whenever you're eating, you're eating for the next marathon. Like, you're not eating to complete that marathon. You're always thinking ahead and planning and measuring out your calories for that purpose. But I think it's cool to like experiment with all of these things. Have you, have you paid attention to what David Roche

has done with like on the other end of like fasted training like he's trying to see how many grams of carbohydrates he can he can like digest because if he can if he can digest more than the average runner or even get it like to this elevated state he can sustain a threshold pace for much longer and like lay out like insane performances which he did at ledville he's gotten injured he's got some struggles or whatever it's not perfect but like there is something there also that I think is really interesting. Yeah, there definitely is. And in the professional game, it's really coming through now of how many carbs you can

consume in an hour. That and bicarb have made a big difference. I've never actually used that. But it is interesting, but I think that's better suited to doing one race. Right. Rather than. And also when you're running a threshold, like at a, when you're like getting into anaerobic zones. Yeah.

And I'm running at 10 to 12 minute miles max where my heart rate happens to be 100. 100. And you're very controversial low heart rate. I don't know if anyone else has gone around a 12 minute mile, but it's like a fast walk and your heart rate doesn't really get up very high. Yeah. When it gets hot, it does, but the heat training will keep it down, I would imagine. Yeah. I think Max's heart rate over the course of bad water was like 143 or something like that.

That's insane. I mean, have you ever tried to run in a 1203 heat? Your heart rate just goes through the roof. Yeah, I'm terrible at it. That's why I've started doing the heat training because I thought I could just go to a hot country and kind of figure it out but I couldn't yeah let's shift gears I'm curious around your experience with psychedelics because I think this is contributed to how you think about not just your running but like life and what's important obviously everything I've pushed and

promoted about getting over like my mom's passing was deeply rooted in destroying my body physically and finding some kind of spiritual help through that world. But the other thing that I've done on more than a few occasions now is psilocybin. And the first time I did it was before, actually it was, when would that have been? It was after 4830, so probably 2022. There's always been, like I said, I've always been explorative and around that time I started hearing things around magic mushrooms and their association with like helping people that have gone through trauma etc. So I was always interested in that world and I got a lot of literature, listened to a lot of podcasts about it. And then the way

I do things, which has become quite apparent is I don't want to like half go into something. It's like I went straight to heroic. So I did, I did six grams of. of psilocybin. In a medically assisted environment, just on your own. Are you wheeling it? Yeah, exactly. I've had this, I was out in the countryside. By the way, just for the audience out of like, you know, a sense of responsibility,

please do not try this. Yeah. Don't do anything I do. Don't do anything I do. Don't do a single thing that Will does. Yeah. Okay. Clarify.

Alert the lawyers. Yes, good idea. But I went through this experience. and for me it was the most transformative thing I've ever been through. Towards the end of the trip, like obviously it was quite psychedelic and things went a bit crazy, but towards the end I'd made this little camp. So like when you're a kid and you take the sheets off the bed

and you start getting things, I also had this starlight that shot up a constellation. So I was laying in this makeshift tent, like looking up at this consolation when the trip was kind of getting, into its deepest point. And originally all of these stars compiled to make my grandfather's face who was alive at the time. I was like, oh, that's very beautiful. And then they all went to my mum. And when you do a psychedelic experience, it's like you get told information and you feel like it's like you understand it. It's like you're getting an external voice, but what you're being

told is absolutely true. And I felt my mum's presence and spirit within me. I felt very much connected to my dad as well. I felt like I'm born of both of them, which is all, which is true, but there was this, there was this palpable energy, there was this feeling that she was within me and has carried me this entire way. And I've had similar experiences at the like the depths of going, going through a run. And then I had this and I was out in the cosmos, whatever you want to call it. And one of the most profound feelings I've had, which I tried to carry, with me in every day now is I got sucked out of whatever world this was and I was I was out in the constellations and there was this central consciousness. It was like this huge brain

mass of things and I could see the world down there and there were just thousands of these double it was like like an airplane's jet stream just shooting down and the information I got told and it's one of almost forgiveness or understanding why people maybe do things that don't align with your version of feeling is all these jet streams were the perception or the view, the lens of people's lives. So from front to back, what they've experienced, what they've seen. And I just had this profound sense that people may do messed up things or things you don't agree with.

But if you had the same life lens of them, you would have done exactly the same thing. So there was a lot of like weight lifted off of feeling maybe annoyed at like people for having differing opinions. It definitely leveled, leveled everything out quite a lot. And yeah, that was the first experience and the most profound one that made me feel the main, I wrote down loads of notes, but the main feeling I had. And if I could rate a feeling like number one, I felt reassured. reassurance being reassured in anything is like there's a level of comfort to it so i just had this it's it's fine yeah i had this reassurance that like energy energy is forever there's this cosmos out there we're living in a somewhat of a matrix but my mom's energy one is within me which is a beautiful

feeling to have she's here she's close but also it lasts forever it's it's everywhere i go when i'm when i'm running i'll always notice like if a bird is like kind of following me and i'll be like, I feel like that's her or a butterfly, whatever. So yeah, it was a profound experience and I've done it at like key moments in my life along the way and had a lot of different lessons from it, but it's definitely shaped how I do things and my comfortability with life and when things go wrong and just being able to let it go. Yeah. Yeah. What are some of those lessons more specifically? The one, one great one I had before America was I was out in Colorado with Robbie Jason and we're in we're in Jason's cabin which is in the middle of nowhere there's no electricity

there's no water there's a stream out there you turn up and you have to like chop wood and put it on the fire whatever I did a heroic dose with them and we went out walking in the woods and around those two guys I've got like my idol in Robbie everything he's done and then I've got Jason this military guy he's he's very well-spoken he's very spiritual so I put the both of these guys on a pedestal, which I don't feel like I'm on. I don't feel like I'm these guys level. And we're out, we're out walking in the snow. It was freezing cold at the time. I think we were, his cabins at 10,000 feet. We were just going to wandering through the woods. Firstly, we had this moment where we all sat down and was just looking at this

incredible scene as the Colorado mountains are, snow everywhere and we're just like, let's all take a moment for ourselves. So close her eyes. And at that moment, I had like demons. coming out to kind of grab me, but I wasn't scared and I was, I lent into it. I was like, like, show me what you want to show me. Like if I need to go down this journey or whatever, then do it. So I alleviated some kind of fear of the unknown and they, they disappeared. But the main thing was, on the way back, Robbie and Jason basically let me lead. And I felt that I had matured to a certain level where I could lead great men. It was like a real transition into feeling like a man or getting to adulthood in a way because these people I love and

respect so much had almost passed the baton on to me and said you lead us so that was a that was another one that set me set me well for like that next transitional phase in life being I think I was 26 at the time so getting close towards that in feeling like I could stand on my own two feet and and lead yeah what I see is somebody who feels like they hold the right balance in terms of wanting to accomplish something great while also recognizing like the true value of that. Like it's not that important. You know, like whether you do this or not, you know what I mean?

For sure. And somebody who has grown from a person. who used running to process grief, but also to punish yourself. Like this is what I relate to. Like, I'm in this place of recognizing that the history of my relationship with athletics and specifically, like, you know, swimming in ultra-endurance, these are vehicles for self-flagellation. You know, it's a way of saying, I have to pay penance for breathing air and that tax that I oh, I can pay by like punishing myself in the pool or, you know, on these long training days or

what have you. And what happens is that you get some material world success and validation for that. And so you double down on that. But fundamentally, the relationship is unhealthy. Like you're sort of in this abusive relationship with yourself. And you're extracting performances from it. And it's powering your life and like moving you towards the things that you want in life, right? So it's confusing. And my healing journey has really been about understanding that it doesn't have to be that way. And through similar experiences that I've had and then this surgery where I was, it was really just like God or the universe saying, you need to stop, you know, we're forcing you to stop. We're giving you this get out of jail free car. You can't move. The one thing that makes you

more uncomfortable than anything is sitting still with yourself and your own thoughts, but there's no escape. So this is your ultra What are you going to make of it? And by deciding to just embrace that rather than be in the mindset that I would have been otherwise and I think most people are in of how quickly can I recover and get back to this person I was before

saying if I stop resisting the one thing that I know will benefit me who is the better person that I can become as a result of this? Like can I sit still at peace with myself? Can I be more present in my life? Can I really commit to a true mindfulness and meditation practice such that it will transform my life in the ways that so many of the great mystics have promised that it will? What will become of me? Who can I become as a result of that investment? And this is not something I've done perfectly, you know, by any stretch of the imagination. But I would say that I am able to be that person and I am able to hold all of these things. things that I do more loosely, the podcast, whatever, you know, like, these are not that important.

You know, what's important is your capacity to give and receive love and show up for the people that you care about and to enjoy your life. And as I begin to build my body back and restore some relationship with fitness, it's not about like punishing myself or seeing how hard I can go or what crazy thing I can do. It's about like, how can I honor. this body that's carried me for 60 years and nourish it through these things that I love that make me feel like me and then share it for the benefit of other people. And that's something I could not have said like a year ago. Yeah. Well, it's been beautiful to see your journey because obviously known you for what, five, six years now. And I know from, because obviously finding ultra is one

of the first books I read alongside Dean's book. So I understand from a point where Athleticism is my life. It's my career. It's my profession. So I can't imagine what you had to go through of having that side of your life stopped, stopped entirely because there kind of was nothing you could do about it at the time. And it's been beautiful to like, now you're ripped roll or rich swall. You look, you look amazing, but it's like I feel like now my experience and conversation with you, you've got, you've got part of you back. It's like the whole thing of having something missing. You seem more complete to me, which is a compliment, but also a compliment that you rode out that storm for so many years of not being able to do something that was so important to you, but still giving things out, giving out love, giving out beautiful things and like this platform, who you have on, how you treat people. So, yeah, I'm appreciate your journey.

Yeah, thank you. And I would say that the two psychedelic experiences that I had have contributed. to that, but they're not solely responsible for it. Like I don't want anybody to get the misapprehension that like you do this thing and then your life changes. It's like this is on top of like so much other work that you have to do in your life through all kinds of therapeutic modalities. And it's really about like how you integrate these experiences and translate them into some

kind of contrary action that you can build upon. Yeah, the whole point is- experience itself. I know plenty of people that do this. this stuff way too much and they're kind of the same person. And I think that our culture has a way too cavalier relationship with them. And they're sort of considered benign and they're not benign at all. And they're not for everybody. So that's my, like, that's also my like disclaimer about all of this stuff. I'm not here to evangelize it or say that anybody should or should, you know,

go do this or definitely you should do this. I'm on the, I'm on the same. I'm on the same thing as you. It's just an experience I've done. Like, I don't, I would never tell anyone to do anything, to be honest. It's just my experience, some things that have helped me along the way. We're all trying to figure out if there was one stop shop to fix all of our problems, and we'd have figured it out by now. But it's an amalgamation of everything you go through and all the practices you do. What's the one thing that might wake you up in the middle of the night when you're thinking

about what you're about to do? Like, is there any one aspect of it that you're feeling uncertain about or a little bit wary? Maybe it's like the inviting so many people in. Because a lot of these things have just been like me and a crew out in the middle of nowhere, whereas this is like major cities. But you're smart to limit it to just the first 5K. You need a handler to make sure you're not caught up and like, you know. Robbie.

Yeah. He's like, come on. You've got to go. But like people could watch at any point they want. But I know how locked in I need to be and focused on this thing. And that is an external thing we haven't experienced. before, but what I would say about it that makes me confident is when I ran across the US or Australia, when people have shown up, it's been out of the blue, like not planned.

So I'm kind of caught off guard. Whereas with this one, I feel like it's regimented. It's regimented. I feel like it's a beautiful opportunity to connect with people because there's, there's so many people that message me along the way when I'm doing these things, like asking how they can take part or be a part of it. And it's a very difficult question to answer, find my tracker and come and say. see me if you want, but this is like I get to involve everyone that wants to be involved anywhere

in the state. So it should be close to where you are if you want to come out and do this thing. Sometimes it might be 2 o'clock in the morning. Sometimes it might be in the middle of the day on a Wednesday. But yeah, I think it's slightly a stress, but how I'm thinking about it is a beautiful opportunity to connect with people, raise more money, hear other stories. And I feel like it will like push me forward to be performing at my peak. It's also going to build as you go. Yeah, I remember this happened with the Iron Cowboy, you know, when he started, like, because he was, he opened it up.

Like, you want to come, you can come. Nobody was coming, you know, even though like this is, I mean, I still can't get my head around. I mean, it's one thing. Marathons are one thing, like Iron Man's, 50 states and 50 days. It's like so insane. To me, it's still so vastly underappreciated what he accomplished. But, you know, it built along the way.

So by the time he was, you know, getting near the end, like all kinds of people were. coming up and I went for the last day and it was like a rock it was like a rock concert you know so I would expect something similar for you you know because more important like the word will get out yeah the story is going to get shared um and that's a cool energy you know yeah it is it lifts you up a lot yeah so I'm excited more of that less of the uh slings and arrows this time around I mean they'll be around yeah sure but you know it's part of it so whatever I love you, buddy. I'm so excited to watch this go down.

And all things going well, I will see you in New York City for the New York City Marathon. I love you too, brother. Thank you for having me on. And another beautiful conversation. I always feel, I've always feel like lifted up or I've learned something about myself by talking to you, which is a big compliment. Glad to hear that. Before we close it down for good, two things. first why don't you take us out with a message to the person who is struggling with making

a change in their life who maybe has had fits and starts but is deflated because for whatever reason they can't get over the hump and they're not feeling that self-confidence that you seem to have i would say what you're weighing up is if you if you don't do this thing it's going to be way worse than if you start. The hardest thing is often starting, but if you look at a, like, more of a bird's eye view, you're struggling now and you're not doing the right things to get over it. The only time to start is right now, and you might not recognize that person from before who was scared, angry, self-loving. The only way to get through it is start now, do hard things, and you can reinvent yourself in a beautiful way, and you can do anything. So second thing,

people can follow along on your Instagram, but what is the website where people can engage in the live tracking, find out where you are so they can join you for the 5K run, contribute to the GoFundMe and stand up to cancer, all the good stuff? It's going to be on Mission America50.org and that will have everything. It's like a HQ website, so live tracker, roots, wasted donate, all the partner information, everything you could think of under one roof. It's very impressive website and there's been a lot of people working on it. So I'm very grateful to remember that. And for all the people who are lurking on the Let's Run forums and the Redditors out there, if you're still ringing your hands over what

Will did in Australia, you can go to fastest known time.com where they have verified that you indeed got the FKT for your transcontinental run across Australia. And they have it backed up with all these files, verifications, travel files, et cetera. Yeah. So it's good because you've been acquitted, basically, in the court of ultra running controversy. Yeah, the highest court of judgment, FKT. There you go. Yeah, if you want to look at it, if you want to look through it again, be my guest. Right on. And we're going to have to do a part two to this after you finish this thing, I can't imagine the stories that you're going to accumulate along the way here. It's going to be just absolutely insane.

Yeah, it's going to be a good one. I look forward to then, but I'm also looking forward to every step along the way. Good. That's the only way you're going to make it, right? Wind in your sales and enjoy the Odyssey. And hopefully you will be Odysseus returning home at some point, victorious. So we'll see. Yeah, time will tell.

Appreciate you, man. Thanks for sharing today. Appreciate you too. Thank you very much. Peace.