The Rich Roll Podcast - Ignite Your Evolution: Hakim Tafari is a Master of Mindfulness, Curator of Culture, & The Journeyman of Reinvention

Episode Date: September 16, 2024

Hakim Tafari is a journeyman of reinvention, master of mindfulness, and martial arts practitioner. This conversation explores Hakim’s philosophy of surrender as a superpower and his “Sure Hearts Release” practice for personal transformation. We discuss his unique blend of street culture and ancient wisdom, from Tai Chi to running, and how mindful movement can revolutionize our approach to life. He shares transformative experiences running ancient Mexican trails and summiting Mount Asahi in Japan—both of which catalyze profound personal growth. Hakim is a true mindfulness maestro. This conversation is pure inspiration. Enjoy! Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube Newsletter Sign-Up Today’s Sponsors:  On: Swiss engineering at it’s finest, On crafts high-performance shoes and apparel crafted for comfort and style 👉on.com/richroll Go Brewing: Use the code Rich Roll for 15% OFF your first purchase 👉gobrewing.com  Momentous: Save 20% OFF all of my favorite products & more 👉livemomentous.com/richroll Birch: For 25% off ALL mattresses and 2 free eco-rest pillows👉BirchLiving.com/richroll Roka: Unlock 20% OFF your order with code RICHROLL 👉ROKA.com/RICHROLL Check out all of the amazing discounts from our Sponsors 👉 richroll.com/sponsors Find out more about Voicing Change Media at voicingchange.media and follow us @voicingchange

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I got to see my life in 4K in front of me. It's already been written in the tapestry of the universe. We're just too blind sometimes to see it. And I realized my life can be taken just like that. Hakam Tafari's life reads like a masterclass in continuous reinvention. A man difficult to define, Hak is a Buddhist Dharma practitioner. He is a master of mindfulness movement and meaning. He's a teacher and practitioner of meditation and Tai Chi and Kung Fu. The Tai Chi is a mindful movement. The Qigong is a mindful movement. The running is a mindful movement. All these things are a way of showing you how to find true sense of liberation and inner freedom. He's a mountaineer, he's an herbalist, he's a DJ, he's a runner and a curator of culture, which is all a long way of saying that Haack is a seeker of wisdom.

Wisdom he today shares in my friend's second appearance on the show, which is a deeply nourishing conversation exploring the beauty of suffering, the power of inviting discomfort into your life, and the potential that resides within all of us to transcend our circumstances and actively transform our lives wholesale. I've surrendered to the fact

that I want to live a certain lifestyle. To me, surrender is almost like a superpower. You have to break shit down. You have to dismount. You have to destroy all misnomers. I want to be my ancestors' wildest dreams. What are you trying to do? Good to see you, my friend.

I'm so grateful to have you back here. Thank you for having me. Good to see you too, man. And thank you for this gift, this hand-painted. I mean, I've seen these symbols of, yeah, but I don't know a lot about what they represent or what they're called or what this art form is of painting these.

So they're based upon a Zen Buddhist practice. They're called Enzos. And as I said, they're based upon a Zen Buddhist practice where the practitioner basically gets the brush and within one breath stroke creates the circle. And you end up making, you know, whether it be five, six, a dozen, a hundred. But it's part of a meditation practice. And what you're doing is basically just breathing into the brush and the brush becomes your kind of stroke, becomes your weapon of choice. And everyone is unique, of course.

And everyone is unique. But the circle's never quite complete. It always ends right before you complete the circle. What is the idea behind that? ends right before you complete the circle? What is the idea behind that? You know, I think every Enzo artist is different. You have some that are fully complete, and then you have some which is like, you do that breath and it's like a quick whisk, and you see that brushstroke. And as you said, everyone is different. I think it represents the completeness and the incompleteness of life.

There's a fullness and a void that encapsulates the Enzo. So every artist is different, the way they paint their Enzos. Sometimes I might be in a mood where I want to do the full stroke and the full circle. And then there's times when I'm like, no, just let me just do a little whisk and cut that end off. So everyone is different. Yeah. Everyone is different. And the reflection that I'm supposed to have when I gaze into this on my wall or on my meditation altar. I'm hoping that it brings you peace and calmness. When you look at that,

you can see the beauty in your own life. That's a tough one for me sometimes. The critic is loud. You know what I mean? Yeah, it can be. But I think, you know, one of the things that I've been really playing with and really enjoying is surrendering, that concept of surrendering. And it was something that for many years, it was tough for me to do. And as I've gotten older, and as I've learned to soften my heart, I've really learned how to surrender. You know, as you talk about that and like, yeah, I don't know if I can do that.

How much of it is you not surrendering? Oh, most of it. All of it, probably. Right? Yeah. And whatever part isn't about that could probably be solved through a deeper form of surrender. Because if you're truly letting go, then there's no space for that cackle.

Yeah, yeah. But liberation is hard. It's a fucking beast, isn't it? It really is. It really is. So when you say you're focusing on surrender, what is the brass tacks of that practice? You know, the aspect of letting go,

the aspect of dismantling old habits. You know, for me, I've really worked hard in these last few years on really letting go and dismantling and just getting rid of what doesn't service me. And surrendering is that. What is not servicing you, you got to let it go. And I think I go through modes where I'm just like, I need to get rid of this, I need to get rid of that, whether it be physically or mentally or spiritually. And it's becoming part of my muscle memory now

because I'm realizing that it's lightening up my load in so many ways that I could even possibly imagine. It's lightening up my load and it's making things a lot more easier and clearer for me. The more I can let go, the more, and I said this in the last time we were here, holding that backpack and just being able to let go. But it's really true. And in that surrender, I think for so many of us, and especially for men, they equate surrendering with weakness. And to me, surrender is almost like a superpower. It takes a lot. It takes a lot.

It's also an act of courage because it's forcing you to confront yourself in an honest way and make peace with the fact that you're not the all powerful in control being that you would like to believe that you are, right? You have to disabuse yourself of that delusion. And that's very threatening to the ego and it requires courage. So it's actually the antithesis of weakness.

Weakness is going about your way and never turning the gaze inward to deconstruct that illusion. Yeah. But it's a leap. It's a leap for a lot of people. If you tell somebody the solution to your problem is to let go, that immediately gets interpreted

as waving the flag of defeat. When all of our instincts and every kind of input over the course of our lives is telling us to like, push, push, push. And if you're strong enough or you can summon the will, you'll be able to solve the problem that way. And that's the gift of, you know, having experienced a life crisis, be it existential or with substances

or some form of addiction is that you're forced to confront that. And then you kind of find your way to the other side and realize the power of surrender and how it's very different than what you might imagine. For sure. Have imagined it to be. For sure. And one of which for me was a big one was alcohol.

That was a big one. I think I'm gone on maybe two and a half, two and a half years now where I haven't touched it. And that was a big one for me because I would somewhat lean on it. Once I realized that I didn't need alcohol in my life anymore and just got rid of it, things started becoming a lot more clearer for me. And I know it sounds cliche and a lot of people like, oh my God, I got rid of alcohol and I got rid of drugs and it became more mystical and clear, but something did essentially happen for me when I gave up alcohol. And then being in establishments and being in areas where I saw my friends drinking and seeing what they were doing when they drunk too much or how they would act and being in those environments. was a game changer for me in letting go, in surrendering.

Because I had to surrender a certain type of lifestyle that I was used to for so many years and certain people that I was used to for certain years and letting that go. And then, you know, just other little things in my life and facets where I was just like, that's not servicing me anymore. This is not servicing me anymore. What's interesting about that is that this decision

to give up alcohol came in the aftermath of many years of spiritual practice and deep connection with ideas like surrender and being present and all of that. For most people, giving up alcohol is their introduction to these ideas, which are new and foreign,

but you're somebody who is pretty expert in all of that. And yet alcohol confronted you with a new level of what that might mean. That's interesting. I think I was towing the line. I've never been somebody who is extreme with alcohol, but I think during the pandemic and things that were going on through the pandemic, and keep in mind, I was still somewhat working during the pandemic too. I was still working a nine to five. So there was that stuff that was going on with my family. I would look at it as me being like, yeah, well, you know,

I'm becoming a connoisseur of Japanese whiskey. And, you know, you know, I'm, you know, I like that one. So I'm just going to keep on. And I would, I would use that as an excuse to be, you know, let me try out this one tonight. Let me try out this one tonight. Let me try out this one tonight. And I realized that I was drinking more, almost using that more so than my own meditation practice. And I don't know what it was, but something one day woke me up and I was like, what are you getting from this?

What are you really honestly getting from this? And as you said, I meditate. I do Vipassanas. If there's anyone who should know about this, it should be me. But still, I'm still kind of leaning that on a crush. And then one day I woke up and I was like, yeah, I should know better. I do know better. Well, this in a nutshell is the good news and the bad news about pursuing a spiritual path. Is it not right? Because on the one hand,

you can't buy into your own bullshit anymore. Once you've progressed to a certain point, you're able to see through your own nonsense and you have this compulsion to call yourself on it, right? Which is, that's the engine of growth, of course. But that means that you have to keep giving up things that you like to do.

I mean, listen, we all have things that we rely upon to distract ourselves from whatever it is we don't wanna feel in whatever moment we find ourselves in. And it can be the phone, it can be alcohol, it can be anything, right? But for someone like yourself who is mature on their spiritual path, I'm sure you're like, when you encounter a dissonance,

I mean, there's always another layer to peel, right? You're gonna be peeling that onion until you die. And at some point you're like, really, I have to give this up too? I've already done this, this, this, and this. Like, don't I get to graduate? Like, can I coast for a little bit, just like five minutes? No, you can't.

Yeah. You know, I consider myself a householder, but I still have those monk type qualities. And for me, it's this really, this following that middle path, man, knowing how to keep things in balance, really just knowing how to keep things in balance. And I knew that what I was doing with the alcohol was definitely, the balance wasn't there. With the running and the mindfulness and everything else.

And then finding myself leaning to this whiskey or that whiskey just to soothe my whatever was going on. Yeah, I realized when you get to a certain point you know there's this thing called the eightfold path that most buddhas really succumb to and they say that you know within the within the wheel there's eight spokes and the minute that you take one of those spokes out the wheel becomes unstable exactly and you know there there's a certain thing within the Eightfold Path, which is sila, moral conduct. And alcohol is part of that. And I looked at that, and I just, as I said, you know, for me,

seeing folks around me, especially in run crew culture too, alcohol is prevalent. You start seeing folks doing things after a 26-mile race or a 50-mile race or 100, and the alcohol starts coming. And then you just start seeing folks doing shit. Why are you doing that? Why are you? And I started seeing a lot of this happen around with a lot of friends, associates, acquaintances and stuff like that. And I just, for myself, there's a moral conduct, there's a moral compass I have in my own self. And coming to this level where I'm 50 now, the way I move and navigate through life really means something to me. And again, where surrendering comes in, I've surrendered

to the fact that I want to live a certain lifestyle. I want to live a very simple, peaceful life with my partner. I get to do what I need to do. I get to run. I get to paint. I get to play music. I want to live a very simple life. So again, what is not servicing me, I'm going to put that away. And I think for me, this has really been a big thing for me, especially turning 50. Coming into my my 50 was like the biggest epiphany. Like if I want to have, if I really want to train like a superhero, if I really want to bring my mindfulness to a sharper key and to a sharper level, then there are things that I need to get rid of.

There are things that are not going to service me. And there are things that I need to build rid of. There are things that are not gonna service me. And there are things that I need to build on that are gonna service me into making me a better person. Before the podcast, I was asking you about your run crew activities. And you told me that you've kind of stepped back from that world for a bit, which is interesting because you're like the run crew dude.

You're like the curator of running culture, bombing the streets with giant groups of people. And I think on some level, the reason why you've taken a step back is not unrelated to what you just shared. Not the drinking part, but more the inner reflective part. And also this idea, you were sharing a little bit

about how subcultures can create identities that then become an impediment to the growth that awaits, right? So the thing that was the accelerator of your growth has a shelf life, right? Before it's kind of time to step up and reimagine yourself once again. And you see people who kind of get stuck

because they've had such a positive experience and it has helped them in positive ways, but then it becomes a barrier. Like you stay there because you're affirmed and that's your community. And there's a lot of good things about that. I'm not disparaging that in any way, but I think it then becomes incumbent for somebody

who is so committed to a spiritual path and this trajectory of growth that you then have to extract yourself out of that or run the risk of doing that very thing, which is getting stuck. I mean, you know, and it was so funny because I didn't really think about it in its totality until you just made it in 4K,

until you just showed it to me. And yeah, I think it has a big, a big time aspect to why I may not be as deep in that culture as I was before. And I think I'll be honest with you. You know, I was several years ago, 8.30, 9 o'clock, I was running the streets and it was like, I wasn't getting home till like 10, 10.30, 11 o'clock. You know, not going to bed till 1 o'clock.

I'm watching Marvel superhero cartoons at nine o'clock at night i'm watching old reruns of stuff with my girl and our kid that's what i'm doing i don't you know that life is not for me anymore will i go out and do it every now and again. Yeah. But yeah, I think for me, there was something great about, I found family in run crew culture, something that was really, I didn't have that coming up in my formative years, feeling like I had a family, feeling like I had that people who had my back and the best interest and so forth. And you said something that was really key. I've seen individuals in run crew culture.

That's all they know. That's all they do is run marathons, you know, be about that culture, showing up in Berlin, showing up in New York, showing up in Tokyo, being of this caliber. You know, I got to run, you know, the sub three or I've got to run, you know, sub 330. I got to show my face in Boston, yada, yada. And I'm not disparaging any. I love run crew culture. Run crew culture is what made me.

Some of my best friends and family are in run crew culture. some of my best friends and family are in run crew culture but I think there is a maturation there is a metamorphosis and there's an evolution and I think you're seeing a lot of folks who came from road running now moving really deeply in the trails because there's no, you have to be at this time. There's no, you've got to look a certain way. You got to be in this super shoe or that super shoe. You go on the trail, the trail is going to humble you. The trail is going to show you the way. And especially with the rise and really the beautiful aspect of plant medicine and being able to explore microdosing and going into the wilderness and really being in nature and being in that. I think there's something very beautiful and ethereal and spiritual about that. And I think that more folks now are leaning more towards that

because there's a lot less judgment. There's a lot more playfulness in the trail. There's a lot more finding yourself and insights in the trail. Not to say that you're not going to find insights when you're running 24, 30 miles on the street, but there's a difference in that when you're in the trail, you know, running in Malibu or, um, you know, running Kenneth Hahn, there is something very mystical. And, you know, I use this word a lot when it, when I have these very intense spiritual things, but auspicious and not to sidetrack, but, you know, I had the pleasure of taking some young kids into the mountains early this year, city kids who have never really been into the mountains. and to see just the whole of LA and to see, you know, Dodger Stadium, to see Pasadena, the Mount of Pasadena, and to see their faces, it just brought me,

it made my heart smile because these are kids that are used to the block. These are kids that are used to, you know, whatever gangs are active in their areas. They're not used to seeing sites like this. So again, while road running is cool and road running is great, I think there's so much more of the world to see out there. And really, I think that you're seeing a lot of folks kind of moving from that and moving into ultras and moving into going in the trails

because there's such a playfulness, a way to feel that liberation and not get judged for a certain time or looking a certain way. Again, I love run crew coaching. Yeah, I get it, I get it. I think the human animal will find a way to trap itself no matter what.

So the quest to run sub three in the marathon gets replaced with the trail version, which is, well, I'm gonna do a 50K and now I'm gonna do a 50 mile and now I'm gonna do a hundred mile and now I'm gonna get it. So it's like, you can find that in anything, but I think your point remains true, which is in nature, you are liberating yourself from a lot of those kind of etiquette driven metrics

and kind of expectations that come with like road running culture. And obviously like nature is gonna deliver a different kind of frequency in terms of that's gonna kind of maybe open you up in a new and unique way. And I love that you took those kids up there while you were sharing that story.

I was thinking about Tom Shadiac, who was in here the other week, the filmmaker who moved to Memphis and opened Memphis Rocks. Ah, yes. I had the occasion to meet some of the kids that he and that community have introduced to the outdoors. And some of these young people have gone on that he and that community have introduced to the outdoors. And some of these young people have gone on to go on pretty serious expeditions to very big mountains

and the life-changing kind of opportunity that that is giving to kids who live in the poorest zip code in America, basically. I was just at the outside festival. And I so happened to be with this guy named Malik Demartian. Malik is a filmmaker who came out of Memphis and he was part of the Black Ice. I think he was one of the moving parts of Black Ice.

And for anybody who doesn't know. Yeah, I know who you're talking about. Go ahead though. So Black Ice is a story of basically these folks from Memphis who team up with North Face and they learn how to climb ice. And a lot of these folks come from the inner cities of Memphis.

And I got to hear Malik's story and Malik is very close to one of our mutual friends conrad conrad anchor and jimmy chen you know he's had a lot of experience where with conrad going on somebody's really wild crazy adventure yeah and you know conrad you know malik would made the the remark you know conrad would just say just just say, just don't die. Just don't die. But something very similar he said to me when we went on the summit. You know, when I hear Malik's story, when he's talking about, you know, he came up, you know, in home crack, crack out of comps, you know, seeing friends shoot, you know, having friends who just had their younger brother or sister shot, you know, being in these environments, not knowing whether you're going to make it the next day.

To then being in the wilderness and seeing a war for the first time. How impactful that is. how impactful that is. You know, even myself, I think about, I really, you know, I was very scared of going into the outside space because I didn't really feel like it was really for me. And, you know, being in Oaxaca, you know, being in Chiapas really changed my life.

You know, being in Zapatista held, you know, rainforest encampments and running through those trails was something very mystic to me, but was so liberating because I'd never seen anything like that before. And I didn't think that I was allowed to be in spaces like that. So, you know, when you hear stories of Memphis rocks and the stuff that Conrad and homie from Free Solo, Alex. Alex. Yeah. So, so Alex is always there in Memphis just to see the stuff that they're doing with kids that have never seen, you know, a boulder, let alone how to boulder, you know, and climbing ices is really just, again, I think it just gives you a perspective. It gives you just a real perspective on life and the privilege that some of us have. Are you still part of that North Face Council? Explorer Fund Council. It gives you just a real perspective on life and the privilege that some of us have. Are you still part of that North Face Council?

Explore Fun Council. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm still in the mix. I still, you know, our side festival was a reunion. So there was a lot of us like Jody, Jody Potts and Dr. Ray, Wayne Grant, some of those folks. Potts and Dr. Ray Wing Grant, some of those folks. We're not doing anything big in particular like we did two, three years ago, but a lot of us are doing our own work and just really channeling and really getting the word out that we're out here and that we're trying to make a change. I just met an organization out of san francisco called uh negus in nature and then um my friend ron griswold has hbcu outside there's so many

amazing grassroots black brown indigenous groups that are pushing to get folks in the climbing, into kayaking, into seeing the outdoors in a way that we've never seen before. Because I think folks really want it now. They want to come out to see. They want to come and they want to see what life is all about. Some folks have never experienced camping.

Some folks have never experienced, you know, roasting a marshmallow on an open fire, you know. So I think it's just, we're seeing a new identity now. We're seeing, I wouldn't say it's a shift, but I just think culturally now, folks are not scared to go out there. As a longtime vegan, I've learned to pay close attention to not only the amount of my protein intake, but the quality. And in my experience, many plant-based protein supplements out there are just over-processed. They're full of additives, which is why I favor Momentous. Unlike other plant-based proteins, Momentous' formula is third-party tested for heavy metals and made from a 70-30 ratio of pea to rice protein to provide a complete amino acid profile

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Sleep better with Birch. When you were with that community in Chiapas and you were running the mountains, was that your first sort of experience with this fusion between spirituality and running and mindfulness? Like what was the light bulb moment about that community? You know, me and the folks of Air Libre, we were so enamored with each other

and loved what we were doing that we were like, we got to do something together. We got to bring this spirituality and bring it into the mountains and bring these folks. And, you know, we'll make it, we'll plan the routes. We'll make sure that you folks feel safe enough to run these routes that we have designed. So it was the first time I'd ever really gone out in the country and done anything that, you know, being in remote areas where there wasn't, you know, wifi and stuff like that.

But I was open to the idea because I knew it was going to be life-changing and I knew it was going to take me out of my comfort zone. And doing that and being with folks, let me tell you about the second day, Rich, when I went into districts that have never seen a black person before. These certain places in Chiapas that have never seen the likes of me before. And I'm looking at them like they're wearing these Sherpa style jackets and rich textiles. And there were different townships that had different ways of how they perceived their cultures.

It was at a time where it was like St. Michael. There was a big St. Michael festival. And all these different townships had something going on. So imagine there's a group of 12 foreigners. I can't remember how many black bodies, but it was just, you know, you could tell we weren't all from Chiapas. We weren't all from Mexico. And these folks, I didn't feel worried not one bit. And I remember having one of our guides, I can't remember our guide's name, but he would run us through these areas and these trails that were so beautiful and so mystic

and smells that I had never smelled before. At that point, especially running up the volcano, we ran up a volcano one day. And that was an adventure in itself. But running up that volcano and doing a big sky meditation once we reached, I think that was really the moment that I realized I was like, yeah, this is what I'm meant to see. Running with 200 folks is beautiful. running with 200 folks is beautiful,

but being on the top of a volcano with six, seven of the locals from that area, along with eight or nine of us from this country, and then Matt, Daniel, and whoever else was with us, being in silence and being above the clouds. And then after that, going into a coffee plantation where it was family owned, picking these berries and having this family, having these kids just laughing and running up on us and wanting to take photographs and locals calling me Joaquin, treating me, bringing me in, cooking me food.

That was when I was like, I'm meant to see the world. And this is why I'm here. This is why I've been given the chance that I've been given and to also come back and to show folks who look and sound like me that you can do this too. Have you gone back? Have you brought people back there? I haven't, I haven't had a chance to go back. Um, I need to tap in with Adelibre and, uh, and, and do a reunion because we

did Chiapas in 18 and then we did Oaxaca in 19 and then the lockdown happened. But yeah, I mean, Oaxaca was the same thing, you know, being in a teepee on the middle of a river doing meditation and doing Qigong was absolutely mind blowing. We did a somewhat called like the trail of tears where it was kind of like how you have the Harriet Tubman and the underground railroad, but it was kind of like how you have the Harriet Tubman and the Underground Railroad, but it was kind of like for the indigenous Mexicans in Oaxaca. And it was like a trail that they were built to escape the conquistadors. And we ran this trail that was like 16 miles. And you could feel the spirits guiding you as you ran that trail yeah that's

heavy i mean how long ago was that oh god that was 1000 year 1000 or something yeah my history is bad you felt the the resonance oh you felt it yeah you felt it you could just look at the cliffs and see you know this was how they were dodging the conquistadors because they knew that they weren't able to get up on these certain ridges and go through these certain little... And then to end on both occasions, the occasions in the volcano and then running through this kind of Trail of Tears, we did a Temescal ceremony, which is where it's kind of you're in a sweat lodge and you're in the volcano and then running through this kind of trail of tears, we did a Temescal ceremony, which is where it's kind of, you're in a sweat lodge and you're in the dark and there's like eight or nine of you in this and you're seeing, you're seeing some shit in there. And that was, again, going through things like that changed my life. And then Japan. Oh, I don't know about Japan. You don't know about japan did we talk about this last time no we didn't talk about japan japan wasn't even on the

radar talk to me yeah so what happened in japan i got to do a campaign with this company called Rock and one of my best friends in the world, Travis Weller, who is a pretty well-known trail runner and this guy named Drew Smith. And for anyone who don't know who Drew Smith is, Drew Smith is one of the most incredible photographers you'll ever meet and ever see. His work is incredible. So he had just did, right before we did Japan, he had just did Jim Morrison's first ascent into some mountains. They were in Pakistan. It was the first ascent since Hillary had passed away. So Drew was on that mission.

And right after that, he came with us to Japan. And originally, we were going to do, we had an idea, or Rourke had an idea, Rourke and Travis had an idea of doing what is called a misogi. The original idea of misogi is like a ritual it's like a cold war ritual that spans like a week and it's kind of like a rite of passage for um older spiritual folk i don't know from what spiritual lineage this came from but but it's basically called Masogi. And Travis and Nash, who works for Rourke, had this idea of let's do our own style of Masogi. And the idea was to do a Masogi that was running 13 peaks within two or three days.

Wow. These peaks were the Dicehead Susan Traverse, which is in the northern part of Japan, Hokkaido. I was just talking to Traverse the other day, and originally when he was like, there's a chance that we could do Japan, or there's a chance that, you know, Rock might send us to Japan.

I was like, hey man, if they send you, let me go. That's a dream of mine. It's like, I don't know if you're going to be able to make this one, mate. This is kind of a dicey one. And at the time, my friend Rio Rio Lake shore, who's a really well-known trail runner out here, black brother, really, really dope friend of mine. Um, an amazing runner. He was supposed to do it with Travis

because they were like the models for rock. But for whatever reason, Rio couldn't go. So Travis gave me a call one day. You got slotted in. I got slotted in. Yeah. Was it more than you bargained for? How big were these peaks?

Well, it was 50-50 whether we were going to do it. So we had an A plan, a B plan, a C plan, and a D plan. And we didn't know whether it was going to be snowing because we went last year around the end of May, early June time. So we were hoping to go see the rose garden season. We were hoping that it was going to be summer and sun and filled. Well, we get there and it was snow and it was big snow. So us trying to do 13 peaks, it wasn't going to happen. And then there was this, uh, a level of danger that

I'm not used to. Travis somewhat and Drew definitely. Drew just came from Pakistan. We did triple the amount, but we knew that we wanted to do it and we wanted to at least attempt to do some type of Misogi. So we ended up not doing the 13 peaks. We ended up doing a few and we ended up climbing Mount Ashidaki, which is the highest peak in Northern Japan. And we ended up doing that. So we didn't end up doing the whole 13 peaks because the conditions were just way too rough um by time we ended up on top of mount ashidaki was like 30 40 mile per hour winds you could hardly see but we ended up summiting and it was probably another life-changing experience in my life that I have never experienced. Or should I say it was an

experience that will forever be cemented in both mine and Travis's life, Andrew's life. Because Nash, who was originally supposed to come up with us, ended up having back spasms. So it was only three of us that went up. And it was a really, really, you know, we were doing some knife ridges. There was some really technical parts of that mountain that we climbed, but I ended up doing it and ended up summiting in it. It was just one of the most powerful experiences that I've ever, ever, ever had in my life. And then to be in Japan, to be in home of Zen, to be, you know, there was so many things, but Japan was. But tell me more about the life-changing piece.

Like you brought it up and your eyes lit up. There was something about this that seems to have something to do with more than just the degree of difficulty and the cold and the fact that it was in Japan. Like, why was it so life transformative? There was a brotherhood between the group of going up there.

There was something that was, I got to see the world in a way that I had never ever seen before. Vast, vast peaks and mountains. And then to be in a space where I didn't believe myself that I could do it, and then to do it, and then to look at the level of what I did, I really started thinking about my childhood

and how I was raised and thinking about my parents and thinking about, you know, just different ancestors who had never, who wouldn't have even dreamed of being in the space. And then there was one time where me and Travis had this moment where I looked at him and he looked at me and he said, are you okay? And the winds were coming. And it was like, when you're on some mountains and you don't see anything when you're looking down.

And I remember looking at him and it was like one of those moments where if we were going to stop, we needed to stop because there was no turning back. And I looked at him and I was, and I don't even think I said anything. I just said, I'm good. Let's go. And I think for me, there was something so...

When we made that summit, I cried in a way that I never cried before. And just thinking about it now, it really, you know, several years back, I was like, man, I was in a position where I didn't think that I would ever have opportunity to see this type of thing in my life. I was in a position where I was like, I couldn't see. I couldn't see, you know, that I couldn't see a foot in front of me. And here I was looking at these mountains and these clouds. I was looking at these mountains and these clouds. And keep in mind, right before we made a summit, this couple who wore this denim.

Marks right by you. Just walks right by us. Just in case you're getting a little, you know, digging your britches, buddy. And we were laughing like, how the fuck did they do this? This is not Everest. But it just brought me to a place where I was like, there are certain things in your life that you were meant to see,

that you were meant to do, and you were meant to be here. And I have to say that it's already been written in the tapestry of the universe. We're just too blind sometimes to see it. And we are sometimes too ignorant to see it. And I got to see my life in 4K in front of me. And me and Travis hugged each other when we made that summit. see my life in 4K in front of me. And me and Travis hugged each other as when we made that summit. And it was just like, and Drew came in

and it was just one of those moments that it made me believe in the human existence. Like if I could take somebody from Compton, if I could take somebody from Brixton, if I could take somebody from Compton, if I could take somebody from Brixton, if I could take somebody from Hackney, if I could take somebody from Idaho who has never seen something like this, I would do it in a heartbeat

just for them to get that moment to see life in its fullness and in this totality. It's also a punctuation mark on this evolving relationship with reinvention that you have. Like literally and symbolically, when you climb a mountain, you stand at the top and you look down and reflect upon where you were

and how you got to where you are, right? Yeah. And so I have to believe on some level like that experience is gonna lend to some reflection on your own life. You mentioned, like you were thinking about your past. I mean, you've kind of weathered and undergone lots of changes over the course of your life.

And you could say, well, there was this transformation and that transformation. I mean, in truth, it's just, it's a constant process of becoming and unfoldment that gets occasional punctuation marks that people can point to, but a heightened experience like that is going to, is gonna kind of conjure that.

And the emotion around it is like valuing yourself for having trodden that difficult path. Yeah, yeah. It's like an act of self honoring. It really is. And in turn, it was a Masogi. It really was a Masogi. It was a trial.

It was a certain trial, not by fire, but it was a trial because of what it took to get to that point. What it took to get from Sapporo to Hokkaido to weathering what Nash was going through, not knowing if we were going to make it, not knowing how far we were going to make it, you know, stopping at the hut and then making, you know, they had several huts where you can sleep, you know, at night, you know, or, you know, just rest up. And I just, you know, remembering being at the hut and we all having that conversation, like, okay, you know, it's like, make or break. Do we go further? Do we go try do this?

Because if we're going to do this in two days, this is what it's going to look like tonight. This is what it's going to look like tomorrow. Boom, boom, boom. And then to make the decision to just do what we did. And, you know, there was one thought that the one part of the story that I have to say is that coming up, I was, oh my God, I don't know how I'm going to climb back down. And this coming up here is hard enough, coming back down, how the hell am I going to do that? And I just remember coming back down and feeling like the Hakim when I was 10 years old at Christ Church Park in Ipswich,

when it would snow and us going down the sledge, that's how I felt coming down those big effing mountains, sliding down. I'd never experienced a tree well. Do you know what a tree well is? So a tree well is when there's ice in the tree, there's like a certain hole that is protected, that protects the tree. And it's pretty shallow. So if you're walking,

like your whole leg will just collapse in that. So I wasn't experienced in tree wells, and I didn't know how often they came about going down. I was literally putting my foot in a tree well every other foot. We were laughing so hard that it was like three kids climbing like climbing down a sledge, you know, on a sledge, but we were literally, you know, had our spikes on our hiking boots and sliding down this. Like we were 10, 11 years old. Yeah.

Just like giddy, three of us. And if you could tell that kid in Ipswich or that young guy who was cruising around Austin or the broken man who stumbled into a Buddhist temple in Orlando that this is what you would be doing and the decision you were gonna have to make is whether you were gonna continue to the top or turn around, like that would have blown

any of those three young minds. Right? You don't even know me. Yeah. You know what I mean? So it is this, yeah, it's this punctuation mark on like, you know, a life that is one of, one in which you've worked very hard

to become the person that you are today. And one that you are today and one that you've also are in a position to enjoy because you've let it all go. And it's like this tension between surrender and also honoring yourself because you did put in a lot of work to make it happen. It's the conundrum at the heart of, you know, this type of spiritual practice.

You make it sound so beautiful, Rich. You really do. I just want you to tell the story. But I guess I'm sort of saying that because I want to understand the nature of change and the process of reinvention. If there is like a theme that recurs the most on this show, it's like, how do you change?

How do you become a better person physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually? And there is no one path. And there's also like no right or wrong answer. And sometimes these ways conflict with each other. They contradict each other, which makes it confusing because people just wanna know, like, well, just tell me what to do and I'll do it.

And life has a different way. Yeah. And so I would imagine people ask you all the time, like how did you go from that guy to this guy to now this guy? Like what are the steps that you undertook or when you reflect on that and are in a position to answer that question for somebody,

how do you think about that and respond? Well, it's a twofold. One, my partner, Melinda, who has been really a catalyst in this change because I hadn't really been in a relationship where I had a partner who really fully believed in what I had and could do and never really fought me on it. She has always had an amazing ability of being my biggest cheerleader, my manager. She'll give me critique when I need it Or when I don't need it But what was really evident Was that I had never experienced a type of love like that before

And that love was really I felt safe I felt safe Going into this run culture I felt safe Going back into DJ. I felt safe going back into DJing. I felt safe teaching Tai Chi and Qigong again. You know, she was the one who said, start teaching Tai Chi and Qigong again. And I started teaching in the backyard.

Seven years later, I have a residency at the Lion Hotel. She was the one who was like, Seven years later, I have a residency at the Lion Hotel. She was the one who was like, go to the mountain and do this summit. Let's go do it. It was the summit that I did with Conrad Anka that changed my life. So there was coming to LA. There was all these things. She didn't give me a chance to doubt myself. She was always like,

this is what you need to do. So finding somebody like Melinda was really key and pivotal because she gave me a way to find, she gave me the steps in order to find my own inner liberation, to find my freedom. And she gave me permission. If I was going to fumble or fuck up or she wasn't going to be there to judge me, she was going to be there to hold my hand and say, okay, let's get up and try it again. So that was a big catalyst. Finding somebody who really truly loved me and loved me in my truest, rawest state. And that was really big. That was so big. And we had some really hard times in that first year when I came from Orlando to LA and it was really, really hard. And she believed in me and really trusted me and we, and still continue to work together in therapy, which is a segue into

therapy, therapy. You know, I went 40 something years of not having one therapy session and I went into therapy and had couple therapy and then had my own therapist. And then, you know, I just had therapy with Melinda today and therapy, like it gave me a chance to look at myself and past traumas, stuff with my parents, stuff with my kids, you know, it just really forced me. No, I don't want to use the word force. It gave me a chance to really look at these things that I had never, ever looked at because I put them in the deepest recesses of my mind or put them in the deepest recesses of my body. And I didn't want to touch them anymore. And these therapists brought them back out. And shout out to Denae, who's our therapist right now.

And shout out to Danae, who's our therapist right now. Danae is incredible in the aspect of really showing us like, no, you were here to show Hakim how to do this. No, you were here, Melinda, to show. So therapy has been really a game changer for me. And there's a really big misnomer or this really big thing within the black community around therapy. And I don't need therapy. And I was one of those that's like, I don't need therapy.

What do I need therapy for? Therapy's some white shit. That ain't me. Everyone needs therapy. I can honestly say anyone and everyone needs therapy to the point that I've talked to my kids about therapy. It's really been one of those things that if I had the opportunity to talk I had access to it, I didn't even use it because I was just, I don't need it. And it took me getting to a certain point and trusting Melinda and trusting the process in being like, that really was something that I needed. And that's why, you know, we talk about Phil Phil Stutz and I just want to give that man the x amount of flowers because I watched that and I cried like a baby because it brought so many things

and it made me look at my life in so many different ways that therapy anyone and everyone should do it I can't I can't champion it enough therapy wasy was this game changer. That was not the answer that I thought you were gonna give. So interesting. I like lobbed this ball in your direction about the driving forces of reinvention. And your answer was a partner who loved you unconditionally

and was able to see your highest self or the potential of your highest self and was in support of that blooming in you, right? And then therapy, because you're the Zen Buddhist guy who teaches Qigong and meditation and mindfulness. So I was preparing myself for a good dose of, that side of the equation. You know, I'll tell you because, and a lot of people think that, but here's the thing.

Meditation can't save you. It's also not therapy. And it's not therapy. It's not going to heal your childhood trauma or absolve you of your resentments. And it isn't. And it isn't. And you know what? People know that. People know that I really lean on meditation and I really lean on, you know, my Buddhist practice. But there's more than that. And I think, no, in these years of doing what I've done and being where I've been,

a lot of it was I had to fight imposter syndrome because I didn't feel like I could be, I didn't feel like I was meant to be in Japan. I didn't feel like I was meant to be in Chiapas. Or I didn't feel that I should be at the outside festival or I had to fight for so many years this imposter syndrome of stuff that I've been doing for 20, 30 years and still not believing. So the minute that somebody said, I actually do believe in you, I actually do think that you are somebody who could really change the climate of the world

and change the climate of how you see this. That was a game changer because you're not going to find that being in a Vipassana sitting seven, eight days in silence. You're going to find something. But you also need people in your corner who are going to really push and support you. Just like you have your wife. It's like you have your partner. Just like you have certain friends who are going to really lobby and push and really, you know.

And at the end of the day, the person that I would always come to is my partner. And I have my altar and I have my partner and I have my kids. And those are the ones who really have really brought me into the space that I'm into right now. Buddha, of course, Buddha is always going to be there. And the Vipassana practice of being in silence and being in those spaces where I have the privilege to go away to be in silence is amazing. But there's something more than that. And I think, you know, as I said, as somebody who came up, I always tried to be, you know, I had immigrant parents from Jamaica who didn't have anything.

So growing up, they were like, you have to be this. We need you to be this. You got to be the one who goes to college. You got to be the one who, you know, be the breadwinner. You got to, we want you to be, have a house. We want you. So there was a lot of pressure and I had to fit these molds and had to fit these things. And then, as I said, when I got to that stage where I thought I lost everything and boom, boom, boom, I had to rebuild myself back up. I had to reinvent, as you said, you know, the reinvention. And that's when I, you know, really homed in on what is reinvention?

How do you reinvent? How do you reinterpret or redesign and reconfigure? You have to break shit down. You have to dismount. You have to destroy old misnomers. You have to do the destroying in order to build what you need to build. And I destroyed a lot of old, I destroyed a lot of the old legacies, a lot of the old stories. And I moved to LA and I had somebody

who had my back in a way that I'd never had before. More so than my parents, more so than, and I shouldn't say more so than my parents because my parents i love my parents but i tell the story that my parents didn't tell me that they loved me until i was 25 you know i mean i didn't get that so having a woman telling me that i'm going to support you and i got your back unconditionally and we're going to make it and you are way destined to do more than this let's try this out let's try this out let's try this out it's like a vegan gumbo putting of a passion is putting that woman putting you know the the experiences and if i was to whisk that vegan gumbo together that is how harkin he's at. Yeah, that was very elegantly and beautifully put.

I own a bunch of spectacles, and I made the grave error the other day of donning a normal non-roka pair on my indoor trainer when I was riding my bike indoors. And I got to tell you, it was a disaster. Every three to five seconds, I had to take my hands off the handlebars and push my glasses back up my nose until I got so frustrated I just tossed them aside. This is the dilemma of every active but optically impaired person I know. And as someone who has relied upon eyewear every single day since I was five years old, it is also the source of endless aggravation. Thankfully, now eradicated thanks to Broca,

the stylish performance eyewear company founded by two former Stanford swimming teammates of mine who have gifted everyone like me and quite frankly, the world with their fashionable line of super lightweight prescription glasses and sunglasses with patented no slip nose and temple pads that are just impervious to sweat. And no matter what you do, remain locked on your mug, no matter how intense your workout. Without the dork factor, these things go everywhere with me from the trail to the dinner party. Put them on, feel the difference, and wear without limits. Unlock 20% off your order with the code RICHROLL at roka.com. That's R-O-K-A dot com. topics and learn about their research. The proof hosted by yours truly is how I share these insights

with the world. We explore things like the health, fitness, and longevity benefits that come with mastering exercise, nutrition, mindfulness, recovery, sleep, and more. So if you're down for slightly nerdy science chats with a healthy dose of humor and humility, tune into The Proof on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. That's enough from me. Back to you, Rich. YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. That's enough from me. Back to you, Rich. I think that what maybe got lost in your account or in the way you just described your story is the fact that you had to put in the work to become the person who was worthy of being with someone like Melinda, right? So it's not like, oh, you just lucked into it.

There was a lot of inner work that was occurring prior to that relationship, right? For sure. So you're shouldered with all this responsibility and expectation, so what do you do? You go out into the world and you and expectation. So what do you do? You go out into the world and you say, fuck that. And you do what you want and you blow the whole thing up.

Right? Because on some level there's resentment or some unhealed trauma of not feeling, you know, like love was unconditional in your house and not having your emotional needs met essentially. Right? Which sets you on a certain trajectory until you crash and burn, right?

But you can't be a Phoenix until there's a big fat fire, right? So you gotta do that. And then you start throwing in the ingredients into the gumbo, right? And when you're doing it, you don't know what you're doing or where it's gonna head or why you're even doing it,

but there's nothing else to do because everything else has disappeared, right? And you're kind of with yourself, forced to meet yourself, maybe for the very first time as you truly are. And that's scary and uncertain, but beautiful also, right? It creates this situation of receptivity It's scary and uncertain, but beautiful also, right? It creates this situation of receptivity where suddenly you are open to things you weren't before because your options have been taken away from you.

Yeah, yeah. And I think that's why now I do all this stuff. So the question then becomes for me, because this is my dilemma, then when everything's clicking and everything's good, how do you stay connected to that? Because for me, I just get caught up in my own mind and I take myself well back

and it becomes just a little bit harder to do that surrender thing because I got shit going on. I gotta call that guy and I got people coming to the studio and it's all good and it's rocking, right? That's a recipe for disaster because now you think once again

that you're the big boss in control and you're basically setting yourself up for another reckoning. So staying connected to what got you to that place, I think is essential, but also becomes more challenging when your life kind of falls back into place or you are able to like repair that wreckage

and get to a place where you do feel good in your own skin and like you're on the right path. The work doesn't stop. I mean, that's why I still do therapy. But you're very committed. Like you, it is like number one, you get up, you have your whole routine. Like, I mean, this is non-negotiable.

You know what I mean? And I would say that I am always negotiating it. Cause I've been in a place where there was no negotiation. Right, but now things are chill. This is my question. This is what I'm saying. So now like the pressure's off, right? This is my question. This is what I'm saying. So now like the pressure's off, right? Yeah.

So how do you maintain that commitment? Like how do you stay connected to the essentialism of it as like your number one priority? I have role models. Well, I wouldn't call them role models. I have role models. Well, I wouldn't call them role models. I have folks who I greatly admire who, somewhat like me, have been through a journey and have been through certain things in order to get them where they are now.

order to get them where they are now. And I also recognize when I'm not getting any younger, the value that I have for my body and my heart mind, I value it so much more now. So, you know, I don't take it for granted. Yeah, it's a routine for me. Like I get up in the morning, work out, go run, drink my hundred gallons of green tea, like you know, all these things that I'm used to. But here's one thing I put into you. I have a lot of friends, when I look at their IGs, they're like obituary accounts. So many friends and acquaintances have died in these last couple of years that I've seen. This guy died. This person died. This guy died, this person died, this person died. And I realized my life can be taken just like that. So in the aspect of being present as much as I can in every moment,

in any situation, in every situation, and looking at the beauty in those situations, I try to, without sounding kumbaya and rose-tinted glasses, because shit ain't going to be like that all the while, but for the most part, I'm thankful that I have the ability to get up and do what I do every morning, to get two, three hours to work out, to paint Enzos, to meditate, to have the opportunity to go to Spirit Rock, teach mindful movement, to go to the outside festival, to go to this festival, to go DJ, to do sound baths, to do, it took a level of

work, but trusting in myself to know that this feels really good. And I love where I'm at right now. And I knew what it was to be in this position and that I don't ever want to be in this position ever again. And I like what it is to be here. So let me just do what I can to be the best human being that I can, to be the best partner that I can, to be the best father that I can, and to be the best person that I can, to be the best father that I can, and to be the best person that I can show up to whoever it is, wherever I know you, wherever I've met you for the first time, or wherever I've known you for years. Because this is how I've been.

Again, I just remember that time where I might not have been on this earth, but I understand what has been written in the tapestry of the universe and I love what has been written. And I understand that there are new stories that are being written, whether I know it or not. And I'm just really, just being present with it and enjoying it and seeing what comes because this has just been one of those years that has just blown my mind being in Paris being in Costa Rica being in you know uh you've been around yeah I've been around. Yeah, I've been around.

And it's just the opportunities, the opportunities. I was just telling somebody just the other day, I have an innate ability and I don't know how it is. I was just in London and Paris and I was with some of the heaviest, some of the most heavyweight DJs in the world.

Then I'm at the Outside Festival and I'm with some of the most heavyweight DJs in the world. Then I'm at the outside festival and I'm with some of the most pivotal people within the black, brown, indigenous spaces and within the outside spaces. I'm in London where I just ran a marathon and I'm hanging with every heavy hitter and every run crew. How is it that I'm in these spaces?

I don't know, but I give thanks and I don't take it lightly. And I recognize the privilege that I have. So, you know, I want to be as authentic and as true to anyone and everyone that I come into contact with. I also want to be a service to the folks that I can. That's why I love doing things like with the youth and taking them into the mountains and, you know, trying to work on getting into the prison systems and doing work like my friend Vinnie Ferraro and my friend Oscar Medina and doing things like teaching the Brahma Viharas,

teaching people how to love and how to find them. These are the things and yeah, I'm just, I don't take it lightly that I'm here in this spot talking to Rich Roll, having this. Well, there's a humility in your voice. Like you're very connected to your humility and it feels like that helps to keep you grounded. Hawk's not in charge.

All these players that you're meeting in all these different places and all these exotic locations that you're meeting in all these different places and all these exotic locations that you've traveled to, you're not taking credit for that. Like you're honoring yourself, but you're also appreciating that greater forces are at play. That's what I'm hearing in your voice.

For sure. Yeah. For sure. It's all divinity, isn't it, on some level it is it is it is and you know i look at myself as being a spiritual being living a human existence and then i know there's this whole are you a human being living a spiritual experience or are you a spiritual being living a human experience you know i honestly look at myself as a spiritual being living a human experience. I honestly look at myself as a spiritual being living a human existence and really just taking it one step at a time, but really being present with it,

being observant of it and being humble with it. And knowing that my ancestors put me in this position for a certain reason. I understand the platforms that I have. I understand the leverage I have. I understand the privileges that I have. But I also understand that the ancestors put me in this position. And I heed the words of the ancestors. And I really, really don't want to upset the ancestors. I want to be my my ancestors wildest dreams.

You know how they say, you kind of hear what you need to hear. You know, it's like, I needed to hear this today. It is my dilemma. Like I have so much to be grateful for, and I'm hyper aware of this incredible life that I get to live. It's not like it doesn't elude me.

Like I'm fully present in this miracle that I know I didn't create, but I get caught up in the day and things are happening. And it's very easy for me to disconnect from that or lose sight of it. Like I'm not present. And I know the antidote, the solution is more meditation, right, more mindfulness, all these things.

It's like, but those are the moments where I'm like, I don't do it. It's like, it's that joke. Like if you're too busy to meditate, then you need to meditate twice as long, bad idea. But when you're in the moment, it's very hard to course correct. And so I think having hard and fast rules

around what these practices are, are the guardrails that I'm lacking because I negotiate with myself around them too much. And that allows me to make excuses. And every time I do that, I put distance between myself and the better version of myself who is more grateful, more present,

more aware, more honoring, all of those things that I can be, have been, know how to be, but need to do a better job of making sure that that's the first thing and not the 10th thing on the to-do list, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's priorities. And those inner priorities, the inner work, Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's priorities.

And those inner priorities, the inner work, or what do they call it? The shadow work. What does that look like for you? The shadow work for me is a lot of deep, deep reflections. A lot of, when I get up in the morning and going down to my studio and putting some Pharaoh Sanders on or putting some John Coltrane on and thinking, really, really having a deep meditation like,

what are you trying to do? What does it look like for you? What are you trying to do today? What are you trying to do at this moment? How is it looking for you? And having those deep internal, having two older sisters and not really being more of a only child

you tend to think a lot you tend to overanalyze you tend to you know and sometimes you tend to we have the saying in buddhism called prapanchya where you make up these stories in your head that may not necessarily be true, but you have these stories in your head. Usually not. They're usually not. I think I just really come to a point in my life where I just really know and trust what I want now.

And I just really have deep conversations with myself that I'm not afraid to have. I'm not afraid to check myself. I'm not afraid to have those looks in the mirror internally and be like, nah, bro, you're kind of fucking up. You need to kind of step it up a little bit here or you need to maybe just kind of turn it down a notch. Having those internal conversations, which I have a lot,

that's all I've ever known. So I do a lot of internal work. The trick with that though, is not to fall into the trap of self-loathing, right? I mean, you could just flog yourself. You should have done that. You should be better. What are you doing that again? That's where the Brahma Vihara is coming.

These are two different things, like owning your shit and holding yourself to account, but not coming from a place of guilt or shame, coming from a place of honoring yourself because you know you can be better. And you can, yeah, exactly. And that's where the Brahma Vihara is coming. That's where the love and kindness,

the joy, the compassion, the equanimity. And equanimity is really, really big. Equanimity, having a spiritual authority about yourself, knowing what makes you tick spiritually is something that is really big for me and I think was really grounding for me. I know that I'm trying to live a certain lifestyle. I know that I'm trying to be a certain way. I know that I need that loving kindness for myself. I need that compassion for myself. I need to give myself grace. I talk to countless of clients who call me and say,

I don't know how to have grace for myself. I don't know how to have compassion for myself. Those years of having to find myself, I had to learn how to give myself grace. I had to learn how to love myself again, how to be kind to myself again. And all of that brought me to a certain equanimity, but a certain autonomy. Like, I know this is how I am. And this is how I structure myself. And if I want to be a better person, this is what I need to do to be that better person. I need to meditate. I need to

talk to my partner a little bit better. I need to be a little bit more interactive with my son. I need to talk to Naya. I need to talk to Leia. I need to do this with Isla a little bit. I need to talk to Naya. I need to talk to Leia. I need to do this with Isla a little bit. All these things come into play. And I'm not afraid to look at myself and have those hard conversations. And I'm not afraid to love myself and give myself grace and compassion. There is a middle path to everything.

And I think that's the key point is really knowing how to balance and structure that. the key point is really knowing how to balance and structure that. Because if you get trapped in the self-loathing, the self-hate, the self-doubt, that's going to lead you down a hard road. And honestly, that's this dukkha. That's this dukkha. That's the straight up dukkha, doubting self, fearing, not knowing. It's scary not knowing what's going to happen it's scary not knowing what's going to happen tomorrow what's going to happen the next day there's doubt all these things you know in buddhist term we call that dukkha all these dukkhas come up but i've been training hard like i was an olympic athlete in how to battle Dukkha. I'm on my Jesse Owens type business.

You know what I mean? I'm on my Jack O'Journer Cursey type business where I'm not trying to let Dukkha dictate my life because Dukkha dictated my life for so many years that I'm not letting Dukkha run my life anymore. So I'm now training, just like I tell my students with Tai Chi, when you do certain movements, you do it over and over and over again because it becomes muscle memory. So the things that I do, getting up, saging myself, blighting the incense, doing my ice baths, listening to spiritual jazz instead of some rah-rah business to soothe my

nervous system, finding ways to restructure and re-soothe my nervous system, you know, going on a run, going on a nice long run and, you know, doing a little microdose and doing a little adventure. You know what I mean? This is all the things that i do is to put myself in a position where i can keep things in balance and keep things in check and not have to let duca come in and tell me oh man you should be worried you should be worried about paying for that or how you're going to get to that when i knew i was going to england to run a marathon old me would have been freaking out about how much i got to pay for this ticket and how much I got to pay for that ticket.

How am I going to get this Airbnb and all that? I didn't. I didn't worry about it. I knew I was going to have a fun time. I knew we were going to have a fun time in Paris. I knew we were going to have a fun time. You know, boom, boom, boom. Everything works out the way it needs to work out.

And I know it sounds cliche. And I know it's like, because you can't let just the spirit just take everything, but you have to have a verified faith in your spirituality in order to move and navigate through the world the way that I move. I understand there's a spiritual urgence, but as I said, if we come back to the four Brahma Viharas, there's a thing within that equanimity where I know I'm good, I'm good. Preach it. Preach it, man.

That was amazing. How do you think about the intersection between movement running, mindfulness and spirituality. Because one thing I've learned is obviously there's a deep spiritual connection by just simply being in nature. And there's an active meditation piece

to running in silence yourself in nature, but meditation formally defined is a different thing. And I think for many years, I sort of thought, well, I don't need to meditate because my meditation is running. And I've learned through practice that that is not true, that my formal meditation practices is actually quite qualitatively different

from the mindfulness benefits that I get from running, but I think it's important not to confuse them. But I'm interested in how you think about this intersection. Yeah, it's really important because I think they're all part of the same kind of, they're all part of the same puzzle in the aspect of, here's an example. I had an injury not so long back where I really ripped my ankle up. I don't know grade three, grade four, I don't know how they grade it, but it was a pretty, pretty serious one. And I was on crutches. And I remember one of my clients asked me, how are you taking that? Because I know that you're

really into running and you're really into, you know, running is a piece for you. So now that you've not got that running, how are you taking it? How are you? And honestly, it was one of the first times that I actually loved having that injury because it forced me to do other things. It forced me to get on the road. It forced me to, you know, do the assault bike. It forced me to do the assault bike. It forced me to walk, slow walk.

It forced me to think about my body in a way that I never thought about before. And I was good with it. And the pieces of that was that I got into my meditation practice even more at that point. And I guess the meditation practice for me was just a validation to say, you're okay. You're really good. You're okay. To sink into the breath and sink into the logic of why you're doing this and why it feels good at this moment in time. And I leaned on that. And then I leaned on to Qigong and I realized that certain movements are going to really help with the pain. Certain movements are going to really help

with the movement of the qi and the blood flow in the foot. And so I look at it, again, if we're looking at it as a dish, I look at it as a great salad. And then the music, and then when you add music as part of really soothing the nervous system, really soothing different parts of the brain, different parts of the brain, different parts of the mind. When you add all these things together, you look at the intersection, they all are synergistic within each other. People like to separate them as their own thing, but they all work as a grand unit. And if we really look into all these things,

the mindfulness, the running, the stretching, the eating, the music, all of that goes hand in hand, going out to run to feel that liberation. hand, going out to run, to feel that liberation. Even, you know, we talk about Toby and the plunge, you know, there is something very restorative and very mindful about putting the body through that, right? And then going from that into the sauna and then, And then just adding, you know, the mindful piece or the meditation piece. Adding all of these, these are all restorative. These are all restorative acts. They are also all radical acts too. And when you look at the radical nature of running,

when you look at the radical nature of running, when you look at the radical nature of being mindful, when you look at the radical nature of sitting in silence for 30 or 40 minutes, you realize that it's really part of a beautiful silence. When I meditate And then when I put the Tai Chi The Tai Chi is a mindful movement The Qigong is a mindful movement The running is a mindful movement All of those work hand in hand And then the meditation piece is really kind of like the NOS It's really like the fuel injection. Because when you get to meditate,

you really get to tune in with your body and your spirit and your inner psyche and your inner self in 4K. There's no running away from it when you really dig deep. You're looking at shit in 4K. So now you take those elements and you put those elements within the running. And you go out in nature. Yes, it's not a meditation, but there are elements of that meditative practice in it. The Tai Chi, the Qigong.

When you have a group of people, or even by yourself, but if you have a group of people and you just listen to 10 or 20 people breathing synergistically, there is something so harmonious and so auspicious about that. And then again, with music, music has a way of bringing people together in a way that is very harmonious and very liberating. When people dance and when people really dance, they're letting out their inner soul. You see it. You see it. You go to a festival and you see certain folks dancing and this. They're letting their inhibitions go. They're getting free.

So in a way, all these things are a way of showing you how to find true sense of liberation and inner freedom. of showing you how to find true sense of liberation and inner freedom. I never thought about the through line between all of these practices from music to Tai Chi to meditate, like the consistent theme being these tools to not only tune the individual, but tune the collective. How music gets everybody on the same frequency in the way that like, that's what Tai Chi is doing.

Yeah. This is like the same thing. Yeah. In certain ways. Yeah. Or the run club. Or the run crew. Yes.

There's a certain frequency when everyone's doing the scoop and everyone's doing their stretches and then you move and then you hit that collected breath. There's something powerful about that. There's something so organic about that. It's like when you're watching a flock of birds or you're watching elephants running together or you're seeing a herd of sheep together. There's a certain mystic energy about that. So then again, as I said, you look at that salad and you look at that intersection of all of those. They all fit. they all fit.

They all fit. And they fit very beautifully if you're able to just be open to see how compatible they are. Before you can enjoy that salad though, you gotta throw a few ingredients into the vegan gumbo. Yeah, you do. Now you're gonna look at that. Let it simmer to mix the metaphors here.

Yeah. Speaking of Run Cruise, you mentioned that you were in London, you ran the London marathon. Yeah. And you got to spend some time with your boy, Charlie Dark. I've only met him once. I met him at the Strava event,

not this past year, the year before. And I just think he's, that guy's amazing. And then I read your Instagram caption to that photo that you posted the two of you together. I was like, these guys must know each other. And sure enough, you hadn't met until 2018, but you were stalking him in the early aughts. Yeah, I think like-

He became like this mentor to you or like a sort of lighthouse. Yeah, for sure. And have him tell you, he was like- Well, explain to people who this guy is for people that don't know. So Charlie Dark is... I mean, what can you say about this guy? Charlie Dark is a world-renowned DJ.

I mean, a world-renowned DJ. He was part of a group called Attica Blues, who were a really big group in the early 90s on Ninja Tune or Mo Wax, one of the two. He got into running. And this was around 2010, 2011. And he, along with some individuals, Mike Sace from New York, Cedric Hernandez from New York, and then there were some other cats from Japan and Seoul and they were

originally I would say they were the originators of what we see today as run crew culture and Charlie has a crew called Run Them Crew in London and along with Bridge Runners of New York, AFE, PRRC in Seoul, Berlin Braves, the Craft Runners in Berlin and Germany and so many other crews, they formed this thing called Bridge the Gap. And it was a way of getting all these different runners of somewhat style and color and etiquette together. And, you know, we wouldn't have Ron Crew culture

if it wasn't for the likes of Charlie. And over the years, Charlie has been one of those big spokespeople about running for the love of running. He's a global Lululemon ambassador. He has worked for Nike. He has worked for Asics. He has worked for all these top brands within Run Crew culture.

So many folks have come to him as mentors or mentees within Run Crew, within brand work. He has given so many synopsis on how to work with brands because he's been doing it since the dawn of time. And then on top of that, he's become a yoga teacher. I didn't know that. Yeah, oh yeah. He's become a yoga teacher.

He is a great speaker. one of the greatest speakers I mean I heard him in London I mean you want to talk about turning uh bread in the wine or turning you know turning bass metals in the gold Charlie can do that I saw Charlie speak to 150 200 people. I mean, you would think he was Moses the way he talks. I mean, he really has a way of inspiring folks. He's inspired folks from all over the world. You know, he's talked about running for mental health. He'll tell you he's seen folks die from not being supported through mental health within his own run crew. And has been a really big supporter on running and how running is really big for mental health and for the youth. He's led youth programs that have now led to run them, swim them,imnem Crew. So many different facets. So many

crews have come out of Charlie's wheelhouse. I mean, I could go on and on, but Charlie has been this like, Charlie is in what we call a triple OG, more so than an OG is a triple OG. And I was stalking him from like 2013. We met in 2018 and somebody who I regard as a mentor and my Yoda, he's basically my Yoda. And yeah, the relationship we have is this incredible. Other than setting an example for you to follow, what was his influence? What was his counsel or advice to you?

His key thing for me, especially since of late, was carve my lane, know your lane and carve it. He gave me, much like Melinda, if melinda was in a male form i would say it would be charlie because charlie really gave me permission like a blessing like if cool hurt gave go forth son yeah and prosper yeah he was like this is what you're meant to do i mean when i was dabbling with the tai chi and qigong he was the one who was like you need to make this bigger he was the one who was really big with me teaching mindfulness to runners was really really big about it and was like no one's doing it you You're carving yourself a own lane.

Even with me coming back out and DJing, he was like giving me pointers on what to do, on how to attack it. Like you need to do this. This is how you can do this. Carve your own lane and really has been telling me how to innovate what I'm doing

in a way that no one else has done. And as I said, if I could surmise it, I feel like I'm Luke in the Dagobah system with the Yoda and how Yoda was in the Dagobah system when Luke had to lift the X-wing fighter, you know, doing a handstand is kind of like how I feel with Charlie and how I'm maneuvering with showing up in the world. That's like, this is how you treat people. This is how you act towards people.

This is how you leave a legacy. One of the things that I saw in 2018 when I met Charlie was we were at a bridge, bridge the gap event in the Bronx. And there was probably about 300 of us out there in the Bronx of all different crews sound like the warriors. And it literally was. And I remember when Charlie came up and walk through, came up and walked through, you would think, you would think it was Yoda. I mean, the amount of respect that that guy got, you know what I mean? Like you hear stories of like when Malcolm walked in the Audubon or when, you know, Martin talked at Selma, you know, you hear these mythological stories of these great human individuals that are just able to speak to people in a way that you've never heard before. Dalai Lama, you've met Dalai Lama, so you know. There's certain individuals like that.

Charlie is one of those people. certain individuals like that. Charlie is one of those people. And as I said, I just remember seeing him move and the way he moved. And one of the things that he taught me is you have to carry yourself in a certain way. You have to carry yourself in a certain way that people will respect you. People would admire you. People will, but you got to show up. Don't show up like you're holier than them, like you're bigger than them, like you've got something. Come as a human being, come as humble as you are, but know that you are the shit in a certain way, in certain form. And this was to me coming in 2018, I wasn't really who I was in the Run Crew culture. I was really a no one, but he made me feel bigger than I really was.

And I never forget that. And then for him to be somebody who I looked up to and was like, no, you're my peer. You're my peer. Yeah, I've got a little bit more years on you, but you're my peer. And then he told me that I was there for him in a part of his life that I didn't know that I helped him. And hearing, sharing that vulnerability and that human aspect. Because you meet certain folks and they're like, they're douches. It doesn't have to be plain out simple. They're really like on a level. They look like they're powerful and they look superhuman. And then you meet them and you're like, man, that's that person.

Charlie gave me the antithesis of that to where I was like, I want to be like him. When I step into a room, I want that type of respect. I want to be held in that same type of adoration. And I just started studying how he moved and would have talks with him. And we would just, you know, we have each other on WhatsApp and I would just call him and I'd just ask him for information. And he would give me, you know, whenever I'd go on a rant on Instagram, he'd be like, you don't need to do that. What's that for? And if Melinda showed me how to soften my heart in another way, showed me how to soften my heart in another way. Charlie showed me how to soften my heart in another way.

Like I learned how I didn't have to be militant all the while. I didn't have to be Captain Revolutionary all the time. You remember when Malcolm went to Mecca and he came back? Malcolm's heart softened. He was still radical, but he wasn't like, kill Whitey and da-da-da, because he had broken bread with every color under the rainbow when he went to do his Hajj. Talking to Charlie and really reasoning and building

and really just learning how to maneuver in life as a person and an individual, as a leader, was much like me going to Mecca and doing my Hajj. Wow. It made me see things in such a bigger picture. That's a beautiful gift that he gave you. For sure. I gotta get that guy on the show.

You really, really do. You really, really do. I mean- His energy is definitely infectious. There was a lot about what you just shared though that I didn't know. You know, when I tell you- Special cat. Yeah, special cat.

And I mean, he's worked with a lot of heavy hitters. He's been burnt by a lot of heavy hitters. He's been burnt by a lot of brands. And the guy is Sir Charlie Dark's OBE now. So I don't know if any of you folks know what OBE and MBE is, those are awarded to you from the queen. The king now.

The king now. The king now. Did he get it from the king or the queen? Well, he got it from the queen. He did, okay. So he's had it for a minute. Yeah, he's had it for a minute. So he's Dr. Docs and he got an honorary doctorate too.

Order of the British Empire. Exactly, or member of the British Empire. Exactly. Speaking of the DJ piece, I mean, he also kind of inspired you to get in front on this. And now you've got this radio show, like this My Analog, what is this, what is going on with this like YouTube

live stream DJ like residency that you have right now? Well, I have a radio show um 101.5 fm boyle heights community uh arts conservatory um but my analog journal was really a big deal and charlie charlie if you go on there you'll see a charlie episode but these folks have a youtube station and they have ds from all over the world, all over the country. And it's a place in Hackney in London. Oh, wow. They have this live stream

and they have all different music. They have Irish folk, they have funk, they have African boogie, they have Mexican psych, all different types. And they have over a million point five subscribers. Yeah, it's a big channel. It's a big channel. And it's a beautiful set.

And basically you just do a set, right? You just do a set. And you do what you want. Yeah. And then it's just up there and available. So here's where Charlie comes in again, another Charlie story. So I told him that I was gonna start DJing

and I really, you know, I was really gunning for like Dub Lab or NTS or a lot of radios. Those are underground radio stations. But obviously no one's heard of me. I was new. No one really. And Charlie just kept saying to me, stay the course. Trust the process. Because I have a different niche with my music my music

isn't the you know one i still play vinyl records and two my main bag is like spiritual jazz jazz fusion you're like slipping in spiritual monologues into like jazz riffs and stuff yeah yeah yeah so i have a different niche and he was like perfect perfect. Again, you've got your own lane. Stick with that lane and keep with it. And, you know, he gave me the trust. He was like, you know, people need that right now. So you need to do it. And there's going to be ways you can do it. And he would give me little tips and he would say, do that, do this. I said, I want to do a radio show. Two weeks later, I got a radio show. You're a powerful manifestor. But you got Mr. Miyagi telling you to wax on, wax off over here. Yeah. And then I made a mix.

I made a mix. And, you know, again, when you don't get opportunities, you make your opportunities. And I had an opportunity. I saw this in my analog journal. He did it. And I saw him do it. And it was incredible.

And I was just like, you know what? Let me send him out an email. I'm going out there to do the marathon. Let me just try it and see what happens. If they say no, I'm good with it. But they didn't say no. And they were like, well, can you come in? And that was like two months. And I was like, no, I can't come. I can't come until the marathon. And lo and behold, I got a bib for the

London Marathon at the age of 50, which was so kismet because two years ago or a year ago, I had a conversation with one of my training partners, Jimmy. We were running the LA Marathon Shakeout. I was doing a shakeout run where I was leading a meditation. And we had a conversation. I was like, yeah, I would love to do London when I become 50. And I didn't know if it was going to happen. And then it happened. And I got a bib.

So what do you make of all that? You know what I mean? So I got to do London when I was 50 and then I called him or I emailed him. I was like, hey, I can't do it in two months, but I can come and do it when I run London and I end up doing it and the rest is history. Beautiful.

And then just the other week you did the Travis Barker 5k thing with Toby. Yeah. Yeah. And then John- That kind of came out of nowhere and happened really quickly. Like Travis made a teaser little video where he was running

and in this Forrest Gump kind of thing. And then it was just sort of like more will be announced. And then suddenly like, it seemed like two weeks later there was a race. It was at the Forum. Yeah. Yeah. And it happened to be at the Forum

the night, the day of their sold out concert. Oh, oh. So Blink was playing there that evening. So they already, that makes sense. There was stuff in there. But we didn't know that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I didn't there that evening. So there was stuff in there. But we didn't know that. I didn't know that. Yeah, yeah.

You know, again, being in spaces, Toby's a really good mate of mine. Toby Morse, we all know Toby. Friend of the pod. Yeah. Friend IRL. Yeah, who's my brother. Like my brother, I love that guy.

Me and Toby start running. And you know, Toby's an influencer, man. Toby's an influencer, whether he knows it or not. He's an influencer's influence. Yes. You came out and we made that video project. Which was one of the first times he ran with a group. I dragged him out and he was like, he didn't like, he was like, I don't really run, you know?

But something about that day clicked, right? And then he was like on his running journey all of a sudden and now he's like all about it. But he's an influencer's influencer because he's behind the scenes, like talking to people that mere mortals don't get to talk to and telling them what's what. Toby is one of those individuals, man.

I mean, Toby doesn't know how much power he has, but Toby is, yeah, I really feel like Toby is a reason why Travis is running. And the way that Travis is running is like, I mean, that guy was doing like 650 minute miles. I mean, he's always been a very good athlete and he's always like worked out and been very conscious of his health.

But the running thing I think is new. Yeah. For Travis. Yeah. And it was such a beautiful thing. Toby makes you feel like a superstar. Whenever you're a beautiful thing. Toby makes you feel like a superstar. Whenever you're around Toby, Toby will make you feel like a superstar.

So we were hanging out with Toby. It was me, you know, Alex, Alex Buck. It was me, Alex, and then Toby's son, who's now a runner. Max. Yeah, Max is running. Toby's wife, Moon, she was walking. But it was a crew of us.

And then John. John Lewis. John Lewis. The badass vegan. Yeah. toby's wife moon she she was walking but it was a crew of us and then john john lewis john lewis yeah shout out john who is bloody huge i don't remember him being this huge 10 years ago huge but it was so fun we got to hang out with trav i can say that i got to hang out with trav i've met him a couple of times now but no Travis is really cool very very cool cat Kourtney Kardashian who you know he's married to

and it was a really really well done event it was a really well done event you know for it being in the heart of Inglewood it was a diverse crowd and it was it was a really big deal

it was and for Travis to come and actually run with everybody yeah to run with everyone it was a really big deal. And for Travis to come and actually run. With everybody. Yeah, to run with everyone. It was really cool, man. And it was just really cool. It was a really good group of us.

It was very punk rock. It was very punk rock, but it was just really good. I wish you could have been there because it was just, it was good seeing Toby. It was good seeing toby it was good seeing toby and travis knowing that they have a really great relationship and now to see them

having a relationship around running yeah it's beautiful it's pretty cool it's beautiful and i can i can say that i can pat myself on the back because if it wasn't for me getting toby in the running and you getting him in the running we can both pat ourselves on the back because if it wasn't for me getting toby in the running and you getting him in the running we can both pat ourselves on the back that travis is now running yeah and goodness knows how many more other people are running so high fives on that i mean i'm not taking credit you can take credit for that you can take credit for that yeah the domino effect it's a what it is is a lesson in understanding that your words and your actions have more power than you might imagine. Big time.

Because they can set in motion subtle energies that have influence that ripples out. And it's not dramatic generally, but it's nonetheless the case, right? For sure. And you may never know what that influence is, but understand that it is real, I think, right? Yeah, big time, big time, big time.

It's cool. Well, we gotta wrap this up, dude, but I wanna leave people with some kind of spiritual download. I mean, you're on fire, bro. Like you're just dropping crazy, spiritual truisms, hot coins, right? But for someone who maybe is a little bit newer

to these sorts of ideas and is interested in deepening their spiritual connection, maybe instead of a practice, maybe lay out the value proposition. The values are really priceless in the fact that you get to one have connections with folks that you may not have had interactions with before. There's a level of killing the ego,

killing the ego or the ego death. When you are able to somewhat go through an ego death, there is somewhat of a opening and a releasing and a revolutionary act that's happening in you, there's a surrendering. And that surrender is a lightning load off your whole existence. There's value in being able to be free of those things, as I said, the dukas, the fear, the doubt. And those are natural because we're living in a human existence. Those are natural, but they can be lessened. They can be lessened with doing certain things like the practice of meditation, the practice of the mindfulness, the practice of just being in,

living those good qualities. The value in it is that you become better stewards of your family. Through this, the relationship with my daughters, I was just telling my therapist, just today, my relationship with my daughter is, I was just telling my therapist this today, my relationship with my daughter is now because I've learned how to soften my heart. And Tara Brock says, there's a saying in Theravada

where it's called a sure heart's release. It's when you fully let your heart open and you just release it. There's lifting that burden off. There's unlocking that cage because a lot of us have a cage around our heart mind. And I like to say heart mind because there's a quality of mind within the heart. And there's a lot of us that have that cased. Through these practices, you get to open that heart space. And that heart space opens up and liberates you even more fully. We're in very chaotic, damaging, detrimental situations where there's a lot of hope being lost and a lot of people's hearts are hardened.

When the antithesis could be if we learned how to soften our hearts, if we learned how to unshackle a lot of those gates that are guarding our hearts. We could be able to think and be more free in our minds and our thoughts. Those are the qualities. Those are the values that you have if you can just let go and surrender and be open to what's new and trusting the process. There's a process and it might not seem clear at first, open to what's new and trusting the process. There's a process and it might not seem clear at first, but if you just really learn to understand the heart

and what makes the heart grow fonder and what makes the heart flourish, you can find that liberation. And that's going to open up more doors for you in the way that you maneuver through the world with love, with life, the way you act with your bosses, the way you move through your business, the way you move through how you treat your wife,

your partner, not being afraid to surrender, not being afraid to let go of what doesn't service you and not being afraid to meet new challenges and face them head on and not be afraid to move with that same vigor and that same passion that you might move with if you were getting the best ice cream you ever tasted or you were getting the best dinner you ever tasted, moving with that same vigor, even in the unknown,

because you are able to trust yourself and knowing that there is such sweet freedom and liberation behind that. Well, Charlie Dark might be your Yoda, but right now I think you're mine, brother. That was unbelievable. That is the way we're gonna end this podcast because it's like, it's not gonna get any better

than that everybody, right? Unbelievable, my friend, that was beautiful. I love you. Thank you was beautiful. I love you. I love you too, brother. Thank you for bringing so much conscious, present awareness to this experience today. You're a special cat, my friend. Thank you, man.

That means a lot. Yeah, it's an honor to have you here and to help share your message. I'd love to spend more time with you. Likewise. Yeah, I'm sitting across from you. I'm like, why don't I hang out with this guy all the time? We're gonna make that happen.

We're gonna make that happen. Cool. We'll link up all the fun stuff in the show notes. But if you wanna direct people to all the things that you're doing, I know you have, I don't know when this is gonna go up, but I know you're teaching retreats at Spirit Rock and you've got all kinds of stuff going on

that people can find out about on your website, your Instagram, but where do you wanna send people? Yeah, I have my website, hakimtafari.com. My Instagram, which is where people find, between those two, Harkstyle, you can find me on Instagram under Harkstyle. And yeah, my website, which will connect you to my LinkedIn, my SoundCloud.

I have a SoundCloud where you can find my mixes. And then I have a radio show every Sunday, 101.5 FM. You can stream it on kqbhla.com. You can find me there. And, you know, I do want to give a thunderous, thunderous, there's certain individuals, obviously my daughters, but my friend Jimmy Rage and Shaman Cassette and obviously Melinda, my partner,

those folks have really been pivotal in helping me train, helping me train my mind, helping me train my body, helping me just navigate through the world. And those are some really great people. And my daughters, man, who are, my two of them are going to come and see me next week from Orlando, which I can't wait. Yeah, and you, Rich, you've always been one of my biggest, biggest supporters.

And I really, what you do for the world on a whole is really magical. And I just want to give you a flowers while I'm here, man. We really honor you. And when I say we, I mean we, because you have a community, you have a community and we really honor you and really thank you for what you do for the world. Thank you so much. We should also thank Russell Nadal, who was the person who introduced us. Yeah. So shout out to Russell. 100 was the person who introduced us. Ah, Russell. Yeah. So shout out to Russell. Shout out to Russell.

100% he's listening to this. So we love you, Russell. Love you, Russell. Thank you, Rich. Until next time. Peace. Peace. We're brought to you today by On.

Visit on.com slash richroll. That's on.com slash richroll. That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com, where you can find the entire podcast archive, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change in the Plant Power Way, as well as the Plant Power Meal Planner at

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