The Rich Roll Podcast - In Search of Mastery With Dr. Michael Gervais: How To Develop A High Performance Mindset

Episode Date: May 14, 2018

What are the consistent behavioral themes across the spectrum of high performing athletes, entrepreneurs, artists, and change makers? Is there a common thread connecting those who change how we understand how the world works? Dr. Michael Gervais has devoted his life to answering these questions. A high performance psychologist working in the trenches of high-stakes environments, Michael lives and breathes in that special place where there is no luxury for mistakes, hesitation, or failure to respond. His clientele include the elite of the elite – the world's most prolific Olympic, professional, and extreme athletes. MVPs in every major sport. High level military. Internationally acclaimed artists and musicians. And Fortune 100 CEO’s. You might recall Dr. Gervais as the guy Seattle Seahawks coach Pete Carroll credits as integral to their 2014 Super Bowl win. The meditation, mindfulness and other crucial team building techniques Michael helped foster and instill into the fabric of that organization paved the team’s path towards incredible success. You might also remember that Felix Baumgartner’s now-infamous Red Bull Stratos jump from an altitude of 128,000 feet almost never was simply because Felix simply could not overcome the high level of anxiety and claustrophobia he experienced every time he donned the jump suit. It was Dr. Gervais who helped Baumagartner resolve the issue and get Stratos back on track. No Gervais, no history making jump. Michael is also the man behind skydiver Luke Aikins, who astonished the world by becoming the first to jump from a plane at 25,000 feet without a parachute or wingsuit and live to tell the story. A published, peer-reviewed author and recognized speaker on optimal human performance, Michael has been featured by CNN, The Wall Street Journal, ESPN, NBC, NFL Network, Red Bull TV, Extra, The Huffington Post, Outside Magazine. This is a long way of saying that Dr. Gervais is the man. While Michael's roster includes the world’s most elite, he is about so much more than high performance athletes. Everyone is required to perform daily. We all navigate our own high stakes environments. And everybody can benefit with the right mindset training. Towards this end, Michael committed to scaling the principles that drive high performance for the betterment of all. He shares his wisdom and experience each week on his Finding Mastery podcast (subscribe immediately) and works intimately with organizations both big and small through Compete To Create, the consulting firm he co-founded with Coach Carroll. A man I consider friend and mentor, Michael is one of my very favorite people. Today we convene for a crossover episode — his third conversation on this podcast and my third appearance on his show — focused on the tools and practices required to transcend self-imposed limitations. Enjoy! Rich

I think balance is so overrated. You know, this concept, like the mythical ridgeline that one day I'll have balance. I don't know anyone that has balance. I don't have balance. And so I think it's way overrated. And the thought that you're supposed to have balance or that I'm supposed to have balance create incredible stress for me. So I say, forget about it.

That's what I say. I say, forget about this idea of balance and work on being present. That's Michael Gervais, and this is The Rich Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast. Let me ask you this. What do you think are the consistent behavioral themes across the spectrum of high performers, athletes, entrepreneurs, artists, change makers? Is there a common thread connecting those who change how we understand how the world works? These are the central themes, the questions that drive this week's guest, and it's the subject matter underlying this week's conversation. My name is Rich Roll.

This is my podcast. And today I sit down for a third and awesome conversation with one of my very favorite people, my good friend, Michael Gervais. If you missed our earlier conversations, you can find them in my archives. Mike is a high-performance psychologist working in the trenches of high-stakes environments where there is no luxury for mistakes, for hesitation, or failure to respond. His clientele include the elite of the elite, the most prolific Olympic and professional athletes, MVPs in every major sport, high-level military, internationally acclaimed artists, musicians, and Fortune 100 CEOs. You might recall Michael as the guy the Seattle Seahawks coach Pete Carroll credits as integral in their

2014 Super Bowl win for teaching the team meditation, mindfulness, and other crucial team-building techniques that he helped foster and instill into the very fabric of that organization, that culture, that really paved the team's path towards incredible success. Michael is also the guy who helped Felix Baumgartner, the Red Bull Stratos guy, overcome his anxiety and his claustrophobia so that he could basically jump from space. And similarly, he helped Luke Akins, that skydiver guy who jumped from a plane at 20,000, 25,000, yeah, 25,000 feet without a parachute last summer. And I would say that that is a pretty

high stakes scenario. A published peer-reviewed author and recognized speaker on optimal human performance,ael has been featured on cnn the wall street journal espn nbc nfl network red bull tv extra the huffington post outside magazine in other words he is the dude we're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment, an experience that I had that quite literally saved my life.

And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem. A problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs. They've partnered with the best global behavioral health providers to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more.

Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good

in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how overwhelming

and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem, a problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com, has been solved by the people at recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs. They've partnered with the best global behavioral health providers to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former

patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. Michael Gervais, what to say? You know what's interesting about Michael is his commitment to really scaling what he has learned working with all these amazing people,

to defining the principles that drive high performance and making them accessible and implementable for the rest of us. And that's something he's doing with his consulting firm that he founded called Win Forever, or I should say co-founded with Coach Carroll. And also his podcast, Finding Mastery, which is just great. You guys should all subscribe to that if you're not doing so already. Because look, the vast majority of us are not super elite, high performing athletes, but all of us are still required to perform daily. And in our own ways, we all navigate our own high stakes environments and can benefit just as much with the right mindset training.

So that's what today is about. I love this guy. Love this exchange. And like I said, it's our third one and they just keep getting better. And this is, I guess, what you would call a crossover episode as Mike and I are both sharing this episode on our respective shows. So it's not really me interviewing him or him interviewing me. It's more of a kind of free flowing,

uh, evenly apportioned type of conversation. Okay. Enough. Let's get into it. Cool, man. Ready to do this.

Good to see you. Great to see you. Thanks for, uh, coming out, man. I appreciate it. A beautiful place.

Chef. Thank you, man. Um, excited to talk to you. I don coming out, man. I appreciate it. What a beautiful place you have. Thank you, man. Excited to talk to you. I don't know how many times, how many conversations we've had, but it's got to be, I don't know, four or five, six or something like that. And each one of them for me start out the same way, which is like, where are we going to go?

Yeah, I don't know, but we'll figure it out. Yeah, it's really good. I mean, the first thing is that I wanted to know a little bit more about is how this adventure that you're having with the podcast is going for you and evolving. It's really cool. I've watched it grow and I've watched it evolve and I've watched you take risks and try new things. And it's been really cool. And it's exciting to see it connecting with audiences. I feel proud of you. I was just going to tell the story. I want to just say out loud again,

thank you. Because what happened was you said, Mike, I'd like to get you on the podcast. And I said, I think I know what a podcast is. And so it was meant to be a good conversation is how you sold it to me, if you will. And we had a great conversation on, this was like- It was a long time. It had to be, I don't know, at least three years ago, I think. Yeah, for sure. It must've been. And I loved it.

And I saw what you were doing and I got to tell my story. And not that my story matters, but it was wonderful to be able to talk in depth in a real conversation about things that really mattered to me. And I thought, I'd like to give that gift to other people. Yeah. And now you're doing it. I mean, I think I even said to you after that, like, you should have, I mean, the medium is perfect for you. It is. You know what happened for me for a long time is that, so as a licensed psychologist, who I work with and the nature of what we talk about is privileged. And so I don't own the rights to any of that. The client does, the patient, if you will. And I don't call them patients. I don't, you know, right? Like they're extraordinary humans. And so the word patients has a funny little term to our baggage with it.

So that was all kept in like this working laboratory, very much a sanctuary type experience and relationship. And then so the thought of being able to have a public conversation was never a thought, never a thought. Right. And until you said, no, no, no, like, why don't you get some of your friends' friends? Don't ask your clients. Well, and also, it's just your approach. It's the way you ask questions. It's your curiosity. And it's the ideas that percolate out of those conversations that are applicable in a broad way. It doesn't have to be a patient-doctor relationship.

No, it can't be. And I hope that people that come on Finding Mastery don't feel like that, but I will say that people walk away saying two things. They say, that was intense. Yeah. And I feel a little better because of it. And a lot of like, no one's ever asked me that question before. Yeah. But I hear folks on your podcast say the same thing. Like, good question. Probably not to the extent they say it to you. And what's funny is that, I mean, we must have, we have so much overlap in our guest pool.

Like, there's at least a dozen people that, there's been multiple occasions where somebody came right from your show and came to me and vice versa in the same day. Twice. For sure it's happened twice. And I always think to myself, like the competitive part of me, like, damn it, Rich. I'm always like, I think it was, I think Anthony Irvin came here right after doing yours

and I was like, oh, he's going to be tired. Michael just put him through the, you know, the guy's got nothing left, you know? No, he was awesome. Didn't he have great energy? But I love listening to your, like, because what you do is similar, but it's very different. And I'm like, oh man, why didn't I think of that? Why didn't I think of that question?

And you get to go so deep with these people. Like, you're very gifted at it. Well, thank you. And I would say where you take folks is like so organic and so real that that attraction pays dividends for listeners. And as a, let's call it, I don't know, what kind of listener am I? I've got like at least three lenses when I listen to others' podcasts, including yours. One is like, I'm a learner. I just want to learn. Another is as a trained psychologist, like to see the depth and the nature and the stuttering and the hesitations or the exuberance to go somewhere. And then the texture of those responses. And then as like this quasi-professional,

like the linking of questions and the linking of thoughts. So your organic nature, like what's happening right now is just- Right, you're gonna make me self-conscious now. Oh yeah, I'm listening. The laser eyes are upon me. Oh God, it's so good. No, no, no, it's not like that. But I've actually had to work, I would say, almost my entire adult life for sure, and it probably goes back to earlier, to extract judgment.

What does that mean? Like to not judge, to not be critical. And I think there's a real thought that to become great at something, you need to be critical. I'm not sure that I would ever, now that what I've come to learn would prescribe that that is a path. But there's discernment. Discernment is different. Yeah, for sure. But that thought that I'm going to put you under some sort of something, I'm not critical of myself nor you.

of something. I'm not critical of myself nor you, but I'm really curious about the intensity, the curiosity, the tone, like where are you going to take the conversation? How am I going to respond? And so anyways, you know what I wanted to ask you? I wanted to ask you about, so we both had Alex on Hold On and like, I think he's one of the most significant minds in sport right now. And I think he's one of the most significant minds in sport right now. And so I'd love to ask you, our setup was different. So I had him in a live environment. And so it was... Yeah, you were like at USC in front of a huge auditorium. Yeah, it was amazing.

But it's a different nature when it's a public conversation. There's a little bit of a fishbowl experience. And I'd love to learn, and maybe we can swap notes here, is what you learned. And then I'd love to share that as well, my perspective. Well, I mean, the first thing I would say is that I agree with you. I think he's one of the most brilliant athletes walking planet Earth right now. I mean, what he's capable of doing is boggles the mind. And I just think his proficiency and his, his mastery to use your word is on a level that, you know, few athletes are, are capable of achieving, like in a scenario in which the risks and the, you know, could not be

higher, right. It's just unbelievable what he's able to do. And I think what I took away from him, well, a couple of things. I mean, first of all, you know, speaking of ego is the enemy. There's a tremendous groundedness to him and humility that I would imagine must be, you know, must be due to parenting and the way he was raised. Because, you know, you would expect somebody of that stature to carry themselves a little bit differently. So I found that to be very impressive amongst his many qualities, but I think that stuck with me the most.

And I think the other thing was his ability to exercise that discernment so that he can be focused on the things that are most important to him, right? In a world in which he's getting pulled in a million different directions, he has the strength and the will to turn that channel down so that he can do what he's here to do.

Yeah, very cool. I think he, for me, he represented all of that. And I found it to be, there's one other thing, his ability to trust himself. his ability to adjust and his ability to trust himself to adjust in a very highly consequential environment is like no other, right? There's only handfuls of people and handfuls of environments, workforces, if you will, that it's that intense. And I spent some time, brief amount of time, I always have such a high regard for people that put their lives on the line for other people's wellbeing. And I spent some time on the USS Truman and it was a dip in and dip out. It's one of the beautiful aircraft carriers or very intense aircraft carriers, the American Navy. And so it's the most dangerous place to work is on the air deck and when i was talking to it was the exo or was it co exo who was one of the two heads of the uss truman he was a former pilot and the way he

described to me his craft he says have you ever been in a car accident i said yeah and he said do you remember the adrenaline that happened i said oh, oh yeah. Like there's a lot. Have you been in one before? No. You have not? Other than like a fender bender. Yeah. Okay. Was there adrenaline rush there?

I don't remember. Or was it more like a, what was that? Easily, you know, the adrenaline rush is easily triggered. Does that happen? So I would say yes. Very cool. So he said, so let's say that somebody hasn't had that experience as a car crash. If you can recall what he was trying to conjure up, the most intense adrenaline rush you've ever had. He says his left leg would shake. And here's the story he shared with me. And I'm going to map this back to Alex in just a second. map this back to Alex in just a second, is that he was, this is how he was trying to describe his,

the danger in his job and the way it feels, is that he was driving, he and his family, they loaded up a rig and a truck and a fifth wheel, is that what you call it? Like they were moving and he was taking some stuff to the new destination and he was tired. And he's a tough guy, he says, and he's kind of trying to grind out the fatigue. And he starts to drift out of his lane, and he comes back to, and there's a semi screaming his horn coming the other direction. So he swerves just a little bit. I think he, I can't remember if it was ice or not. I can't remember that part of the story. But it's like he felt very out of control in this moment.

And he's like, okay, I got it, I got it, I got it. And then all of a sudden his fifth wheel started to parallel with his car. So it was like a, what do you call that? Like a jackknife. Hydroplane, yeah. Yeah, so he was hydroplane, but the back rig, if you will, was now parallel to his truck. So he makes this kind of amazing adjustment and his truck and fifth wheel straighten out and the rig just barely misses him as the dramatic story should end, right? And he pulls off to the side and he said, if you can imagine what that was like, my legs were

shaking, my arms were trembling. I wasn't breathing during that time, but it was amazing. And I was frightened. And he said, that's what it's like every time I try to land on an aircraft carrier. Wow. So that intensity will get Alex killed. So that's not what Alex has. And so when we think about dangerous risk takers, dangerous environments, risk takers, that's not the same environment that Alex lives in. That's not his internal system. His internal system, as I've come to understand from many of these folks, is that there's a quietness with a deep trust that I know how to get myself out of a jam. I know how to adjust to difficult moments, even when the consequences potentially limb or life. And I loved it.

And at the same time, I thought it was one of the hardest interviews or conversations I had. Was it? Why? Because his nickname is no big deal. Yeah. So Alex, what's it like to have, you know- Sort of deflecting and-

Yeah, your thumb and middle finger in a hole and you're dangling from 2000 feet and you've lost your footing on your, you know. It was cool. I know. Where do you go with that? It's funny because it's arguably the most extreme amongst the extreme sports, but it isn't. And it's like you said, it's not an adrenaline boosting thing. It's all, it's quite the opposite. He has to, you know, he has to get himself into this incredible almost

like a trance-like state of extreme focus and calmness and in terms of like intuition my sense is that he's just a highly integrated human being like he knows how he ticks he knows why he ticks and i don't know what process he undertook to understand himself on such a deep level, but I think that is foundational and one of the keys to his success. And I think, you know, in terms of speaking about that more broadly, and I'm interested in what you think about this, look, you're in the business of talking about peak performance. Everybody wants to be a peak performer, regardless of whether you're sitting in a cubicle or you're an athlete or whatever, a musician. I don't know if everyone does.

But they're interested in peak performance, right? How can I optimize? How can I be better? And at the same time, I think there's like this cynical tone as well that takes place like, oh, okay, peak performance. Like I get both of those. And I think, I wanna hear what you, why you think everyone wants it. Because my experience is that most people nod their head

that they wanna be better, but don't wanna do the work. And so that's why, you know, that's why all these life hacks are so popular. But the idea behind the life hack is, you know, on some level about optimization, I suppose. So everyone's looking to, you know, level up, but they wanna do it the easy way. And so to bring it back around,

like the point that I was making is, when you look at someone like Alex, he's able to optimize on such a high level because of that profound level of self-understanding like Alex, he's able to optimize on such a high level because of that profound level of self-understanding that he has, right? And that's the part people don't wanna do. They wanna skip that part.

The self-discovery. Yeah, because that's- There is no, there's, don't get me wound up, right? You know how I think about hacking, but there's- No, please, like I wanna unleash you on this point because I think it's super important. I think people look at this and they either don't understand what that means or they find it inconvenient or unnecessary. Like,

they just want to get to the sexy part, but that's where the work is. And when you see somebody who is so self-actualized as Alex, the proof is in the pudding because his ability to execute on what he cares about is a direct function of that integration process. Yes. I mean, I'm shaking my head like, yes. And I love this phrase that someone gave us, my wife and I, this thought early on, which was parenting is inconvenient. Super inconvenient. Super inconvenient.

And it doesn't mean that that that was that's not a bad thought that is like to do parenting well you're gonna have to maybe leave places that you want to be because you say to your son or daughter whomever like hey the behavior that you're that you're that you're acting on it's not not okay. And if it continues, we're going to have to leave Disneyland, even though you want to be there, or this party that you're at, or this, whatever. And the inconvenience, being inconvenienced, not by the human that you're raising, but by the acts that sometimes are untimely. And that's the hard work.

That's what actually creates the beautiful bonds between children and adults is the ability for them to trust like, okay, they have my best interests, even though it's not easy now to live through. And you said it was inconvenient for people, or it is inconvenient to do the long, difficult journey of self-discovery. Oh yeah, it's hard.

Right, it's hard to be honest. It's hard to do that alone work. Nobody can give you wisdom. Yeah. And I don't know that I ever would have done it had my back not been up against the wall. Pain has always been my motivator to really look inward and make changes. So I've been asking this question to people lately, and I don't know if it's a fair question, and I'd like to get your thoughts on it. Love to win or hate to lose. And if there were space to choose a third option, would you choose a third option? Or would you just say, oh yeah, it's this one out of those two? I would choose a third option. For me, it's never about winning or not losing. It's just a function of whether I lived up to what I believe to be my potential. Like, did I do my best? Did I put everything into trying to achieve a certain result?

That's why I think it's not a fair question. And that being said is the process to better understand what is possible for anybody, for oneself or for somebody else is difficult. Like that takes discernment. That takes deep thinking. To think about, like, and I think this might be one of the most loving thing we can do for another human is to think deeply about what is possible, have a conversation with that person, calibrate that conversation, nod our heads to it. Once we get the fabric and the texture of that thought aligned, and then commit to helping, supporting and challenging that person through. And if we're left alone to do it, it's really hard. That's why I haven't seen anyone that does it alone.

But back to the thought, hate to lose, love to win. Almost 95% of people that I ask that question to, whether they think that they are on the right path or not. No, no, let me not say it that way. That sounds almost crude. 95% are saying hate to lose. And then given a little bit more space. Is that true? Really? Yeah. Yes. But what spurred me on that is your thought, which is I had to come from pain. So the pain of losing, which if we map it on the brain, there's no loss center of the brain.

There's grief. There's like, you know, there's no, the redundancies in the brain are minimized because it's this amazing superpower computer that we don't even know really how it works. But the thought that there's a center for losing a Superbowl or losing an ultra event, there's no center in the brain for that. It is mapped over grief. So most people, grief is so hard for people. And then when they, so that when they go put their butt on the line and go for it in a competitive environment or a vulnerable environment, and they come up short, it feels like grief, and that's hard. And so hating to feel grief is the response. That's how I decode that thought. Like an avoidant strategy.

Yeah. Like I hate it so much. I'll do whatever it takes to relieve myself from it. And I'm not sure that that's a beautiful way to do, you know, the process. Yeah, no, I don't think so. I don't think so. So when you sit down with, you know, somebody that you're working with, like, how do you begin to figure this out and find a different through line to connect with that person to perhaps provide a foundation for a healthier motivation? Well, we try to get clear. The first part is that, not first part, but just the value to discovery process. The first part is that, not first part, but just the value to discovery process. Let's just nod our head that the initial part, you're asking me like when I'm doing my craft, is that right?

Like as a sports psychologist or performance psychologist. So the initial, so the way I've structured it is that we spend eight hours together. That's a long day. By the end of the day, we're exhausted. We both are tired because we're working relentlessly towards insight. And then at the end of those eight hours, if we are so fortunate to have some insight about what makes the person that I'm working with, who are they and what makes them work, if you will, what are they driven by and driven toward? What makes them work, if you will? What are they driven by and driven toward? And then if we can get a handful of insights together, then we can set up and design a way to train one's mind and organize one's life for optimizing. Right.

Okay. So that deep, deep work is really like, who are you? What are you driven by? What are you driven toward? And then what do you imagine is possible? And so that's- But in order to really get to the heart of that, it's not just a function of like, oh, what drives you?

Oh, I wanna win the Superbowl or I wanna win an Olympic gold medal. Yeah, okay, but is that really what's driving them? Like you have to get beneath that, right? Oh, that's like 18 questions beneath that. Like, yeah. So you have like this, like what's the strategy? Like how do you begin to pull those

layers back and get to the heart of who somebody really is? You know, it's a fun part that I don't ever talk about is that, okay, I want to kind of link two things together. One is I was on a recent podcast, I'll keep it nameless. And I got really fiery during the conversation. And I said to the interviewer, I said, you know what it feels like to be on this side of the conversation? It feels like you've grabbed me by my ankles. You've tried to wrestle me to get me upside down and shake out whatever you think is in my head. You know, like trying to get the lint and the coins that come from my pockets and whatever thoughts, you know, that could bang out of my head. Trying to hack you.

Yeah. And I said, that's not how this works. It doesn't work like, what are the four questions? And I know that you're out of my head. Trying to hack you. Yeah. And I said, that's not how this works. It doesn't work like, what are the four questions? And I know that you're not asking that. You're asking a really thoughtful, like, what is the process underneath? And so I want to share something that I think you might enjoy, right? So let's say I ask an innocuous question, like kind of a, not something amazing, but it's a curious question. It's authentic.

What's happening for me is I'm standing on the shoulders of titans of research in the field of psychology. I'll remind you that from our last conversation, just as a stopgap here, is that I can't get enough of it. I can't read enough of it. I love how complicated the mind is. And so all of the research and reading that goes into it, it's like, what are the theories? Where are they strong? What are they missing in their approach? What are the applied practices that have been studied around it? So I've got all of? So I'm trying, I've got all of that that I'm trying to forget, but I need to stand on those shoulders. Okay. Then I'll ask a question based on a particular paradigm or theory. And then what I'm doing is

I'm just watching and feeling. So I feel myself, I got to get myself out of the way. Because if I'm anxious, they can pick it up. We can smell stress. We can see it in micro expressions. And so if I'm stressed out right now, your natural response in your brain is to go, well, if he's stressed, maybe I should be stressed. If his brain is picking up something dangerous, maybe there's something at stake here. And so then that becomes problematic. So I've first got to get myself out of the way by being where my feet are, right? Being curious as opposed to judgmental. Ask the question.

And then without trying to bait a response or trying to guess where it's going, be in it. And then use both silence and observation to be able to toggle. This is the part I want to share. Toggle up or down the amygdala activation. So the amygdala is part of the brain that is like the emotional kind of fight, flight, freeze, submission, or flow state responses. That last one is asterisk.

There's not enough research around it right now. Okay, so just providing enough stress where their brain lights up, but trying to figure out if we've crossed that threshold where the brain begins to shut down. Thinking clearly and emotional. Thinking clearly becomes compromised because the emotional center of the brain is too active. So that is like the art. You're like turning these dials. Right?

Well, that sounds dangerous. No, it's more like I'm not turning them. I'm trying to be the filter, like the receiver of them. And then if I ask just this question and say it in this kind of way, what happens? or break out in a sweat or find a sense of relaxation or peace, it's like, oh, look, what just happened? And so then we use the experience in the room to work to calibrate. When you're doing that, like, probing process, I mean, part of that, I would imagine, has to do with finding a way in, like,

how can I, like, what are the levers here that I can play with to motivate this person to, you know, unleash, you know, perhaps potential that's hidden within them? And I would imagine you're going to come across some levers that would work but are unhealthy. Like, oh, this guy, you know, I don't know, you know, he hates his dad. So I can play with that and I could get him to, you know, really, you know, I could perhaps get him to a new level in his, whatever his expertise is, but that's ultimately not a sustainable methodology, right? I love it. You know, okay, so one of the thoughts is there's an assumption that I'm making, is that you hold all of your insights. You are the container of wisdom as well. So there's nothing I'm going to say that is going to provide wisdom.

Like, it's already inside you. We just need to figure it out. Everything you need is already inside you is the basic assumption. And you said like to help motivate people. I don't think so. I don't think that that's, I'm not in the right business to help motivate people

because the folks that I spend time with are highly driven, like the half percenters in the world driven. And so I feel like, not feel, I think that part of the process is to create more space for the fire to burn more brightly, right? And then how do you do that? Well, each thought, this is a hypothesis, right? Thoughts lead to thought patterns.

Thought patterns leads to thought habits. Once they become habits or habitual, they move just below for, what's the word I'm looking for? They move below the surface for, what's the word I'm looking for? Like efficiency. Sorry. Yeah. So there's just like physiological patterns, right? So from thoughts to thought patterns to habits, and then once they're a habit, they're below surface. So part of it is reminding them of the habits that they've already built. They've already had great success. Every human has.

They've already figured out how to get out of jams. People have done. So let's use what's already below the surface and above the surface to figure it out. Now, if we reverse engineer that, each thought either creates space or tension. I'm going to oversimplify it, right? But just with that thought alone, if you can become more aware of your thoughts, and then is this particular thought that you're having right now rich? Because you're having thoughts, I'm having thoughts, and we're having a conversation. And the better this conversation goes is a direct relationship to the amount of thoughts that are not present. Right?

Right. Okay. So, every thought that we have is either creating constriction or expansion. And I learned that from Judson Brewer, who's a beautiful mind in the contemplative mindfulness research space. And it's like, yes, that's it. That's exactly it. And so that simple little insight, I think really is how the process works.

So walk me through like an example of that. You know what I mean? Like, I don't know, like in your experience of working with the people, you obviously not naming names, but is there like, I'm trying to under- Can I ask you a question? Because it sounds very ephemeral.

You're going to turn this on me, aren't you? Of course, yeah. All right. Let's go to work. All right, so let's talk about, I don't know, something that you're working on building, something that you're trying to figure out. What would that be? I'm trying to, let's see that's a good question well i'm trying to figure out how to um create better systems around the work that i do so that i can be so that i can do it in a more sustainable way without being drained so that I can approach my work with enthusiasm

and awe and wonder and excitement. Okay, so where's the draining come from? It comes from, I think it comes from a couple of things. It comes from control issues, comes from holding myself to an unreasonable perfectionist standard. And when you are thinking about needing to be perfect and having a high standard that way, what are those thoughts? I think that's driven by...

No, no, what are the actual thoughts? Oh, the actual thoughts? The actual thoughts are, this isn't good enough, I can make it better. I can make it better. That's it, Rich. That's the thought. That's the thought that creates. So perfection is a constricting-based thought, right? It creates tightness, both mentally and physically. You probably feel it. If we stayed there long enough, you would be like, yeah, I'm all wound

up because, my God, if I put this product into the world and it's not good enough, I'm going to be judged as hard as I'm afraid that, no, I'm going to feel that other people are judging me as hard as I'm judging myself. And it feels awful when I judge myself at that standard. Which is what I do all the time. That's right. So that creates constriction. And what that does is like it just puts a little sand in the groove, right? It just doesn't allow the grease to work quite as well.

So that's simple. That's really simple. So then what's the applied tactic is become more aware of that thought because that becomes a thought pattern. As soon as you grab that thought. I have good self-awareness around it. I'm just paralyzed from actually implementing changes. Well, we talked about this three years ago. See?

This is what I'm telling you. Implementation is my problem. Well, for all of us, though. So you know what's really cool about this three years ago. See, this is what I'm telling you. Implementation is my problem. Well, for all of us though. So, you know what's really cool about this nature of the conversation? Me too. Okay. So, I have to, I grew up super self-critical. I came from a family, from an ecosystem, from a community that supported that somehow.

No one wants their children to be self-critical. You know, well, strike the word no one. There are some families that think that that is the right way. And let me kind of pull out of this conversation for a minute. I have a nine-year-old and I see the competitive sport landscape. My son is more on the artistic side right now than the sports side or the athletic side. And I see where some parents, and I'm not saying that they're my son's friends, but I just see the ecosystem of young parents and young children. And the ones that are screaming on the sidelines are not the ones that did it in the pros. Of course not. No. So the ones that have done it in the pros, they're in the corner

with their hat down going, God, I hope he's having fun. Yeah, of course. I mean, because they're fulfilled. They're not living out their childhood fantasy through some projection on their child. And they know that to really go the game of mastery with a stop short of that, which would be high performance, to really go to that place, it takes a long time. And if you don't love it, you're not going to go a long time. And if you're, let's say high performance is stop 1,000. I'm making up how many stops are on this train, 1,000. Mastery is like 2,000, right? So the stop of 1,000, most people want to get off around 250 now because it's so freaking hard to be deeply focused.

Because when you're deeply focused, you know what you have to do? You have to gate out the thoughts that create constriction. To be deeply focused in this moment where all things amazing happen, high performance, love, intimacy, vulnerability, all the amazing things happen in the present moment as you well understand that of being your friend and listening to your thinking patterns. So we have to gate out all the ones that create constriction that become noisy. So you think about the signal to noise ratio. The signal is where amazing things take place, and it's always found in the present moment. And the noise are the self-critical thoughts.

Right. Need to be perfect. That's that and the other. And the noise of what others might think of us. Those are both noisy. So what is the process of muting the self-critical voice? Yeah, not, okay, so it's not a mute, right? It's a relationship with it. It's a relationship with, like, and there's lots of ways to do this.

Like, but it's the relationship with, why am I doing that? Okay, huh, that's interesting. Oh, look, there it is again. So it's increasing the awareness, being curious about why you would choose that thought. And then as soon as, and then making a decision, as soon as I do have that thought, what am I going to do about it? Right. Well, I think it's even deeper than that because at least in just speaking for myself, and I've seen this with other people, these behavior patterns that are perhaps leading us astray can be part and parcel of our identity and also what we imagine or project are

crucial aspects of our success equation. So I can easily make the argument, for example, So I can easily make the argument, for example, that my perfectionist standard, my control issues, that's how I was able to even get here to this place where I get to sit here and talk to you. And if I let go of that, that's very threatening. That's terrifying, right? Because that means that I have to come to this decision that that is in fact not what's fueling my success. And just coming to that understanding is difficult. And it would then put me in a place of confusion and mystery. Yeah. Okay.

So what you're hitting on is big time, right? It's almost like what would be an easy example is that, you know what? Okay, I have a headache. And so the doc or someone that I trust told me to take aspirin. Do you take aspirin for headaches? Yeah, if I get a headache, I don't get headaches that much. No, I was asking that like more rhetorically. Or Advil or whatever.

Or Advil, whatever it is, right? You take something for a headache. And it works. You're like, oh, okay, good. Okay. And then at some point you say, man, I got a stomach ache. You go into the doc for the stomach ache and they go, you know what? Let's do a little test.

Oh, you've got some ulcers. How often do you take the headache medicine? Well, I take it three times a day. No, no, no, no, no. You got to stop doing that. It's too much. But it works. I don't have headaches.

But now you have an ulcer. So it's a little bit like this system that got you here. And I see this all the time. The system that got me to a certain phase of my life, even this phase of my life, has worked, but there's limitations. And I see it with world-class athletes that say, what got me here? I've got two gold medals. I've got this, that, and the other accolades, but there's another space that I need to figure out because this is no longer working anymore. And so it's like, now the question is, do you stop

taking the medicine? Right. Because the pattern, the initial pattern was that you had headaches. So now you got to figure out how to not have ulcers and not have headaches. Yeah, I think that reminds me of my conversation with Kerry Walsh Jennings, who you know well. That idea that like in the context of athletic performance, like, oh, the way that you become successful is you live this monastic life and all you do is train. And then, you know, as you grow older, life gets more complicated. And if you want to continue in your career, you have to provide the space to let other things into your experience. And that can be frightening,

right? It's like, no, the only way that I can win gold medals is if I live alone in a hut in the woods, right? And then to come into an understanding that actually you might even be better if you let go of that idea. That idea may have gotten you to this place, but it's not going to take you through three more Olympiads. So there's two components that we're talking about. The journey of self-discovery, and I'd love to unpack that a bit. And then what we're talking about right now is a psychological framework. So both are foundational to be able to have a strong base to explore.

How do I make rational and clear sense of events that take place in my life? And there's three basic buckets for a psychological framework that I'm really fascinated by that have been thematic. One is optimism versus pessimism. And what I've found, like research would support this as well, there's lots of good research around optimism and pessimism. Not a whole lot about pessimism, but in reference to optimism. And then my personal life experiences, I don't know any, and that sounds like a really big phrase, but I don't know any world-class performers that don't believe the future is going to work out well. Yeah. But our, but my first question is, is, is that immutable? Like there are pessimistic people and there are optimistic people. Can you take somebody who has a victim mentality or a pessimistic outlook on life and turn them into an optimistic person? to do it. So they need to understand like the process for all of us to change is to feel the pain of the current situation. And this is why drugs are so gnarly is because they take away

the pain, right? And buying something can take away some pain, you know, it can give you some instant pleasure. That may deprive you from that pivotal moment in which you are forced to look at yourself and perhaps make that change that could make all the difference. There it is. So, I can't help somebody change, right? They have to want to do it. My job, in many cases, is to help them feel pain. But even, let's assume they have that willingness. The clear answer is yes.

We are not born as we, the leading hypothesis about optimism, pessimism is we're not born. We don't come into the world that way. There might be a genetic predisposition towards anxiety and whatever that would gate somebody a little bit closer to pessimism, but it's a learned behavior. And so anything that's learned can be adjusted and adopted. So the first is to know that there's options. And part of that process is to recognize how many of the extraordinary doers in the world think, and they're more optimistic than pessimistic, just by my experience, if we're just taking an N of one right now. And then the challenge in this conversation is as soon as people talk about optimism, it sounds like all of a sudden we're going to get soft. All of a sudden we're

going to get, you know, let's hold hands and let's pick some flowers together and everything's going to work out just right. That's not what optimism is. Optimism, we think that optimism is at the center of mental toughness, to have the mental discipline to be able to stay the course when the shit is not going right. That's the thing right there. Well, it's fortitude. It takes a tremendous amount of faith and composure to say, I'm going to devote this huge part of my life to this goal, whether it's professional or athletic or whatever it is. Baked into that has to be some sense that this is going to lead you in a positive direction, right? That things are going to work out, maybe not exactly as you imagine, but that it'll deliver you to a place that's better than wherever you are at that moment.

That's exactly right. Okay. So then at some point, how do you chip in? Right. How do you really trust yourself? How do you trust that whatever it is that you're going, whatever bet you're going to play, that it's going to work out? And if it doesn't work out, you have the ability to figure it out. Okay. So we've got optimism, we've got locus of control, and then we've also got grit. And those are three pillars in the

psychological framework that I think are really important to pay attention to. So grit, as you know, from Angela Duckworth, passion, perseverance for long-term goals, control, the locus of control. Like, are you controlling what's 100% in your control? Are you working towards that or caught up in the noise of the other things that are really important, but you can't control?

And getting those three cobbled together on a consistent basis, that's a nice, significant piece of work to have some durability on the long play in life. One of the things that you talk about a lot that is just one of my favorite subjects is this idea that we become the stories that we tell about ourselves.

Those become predictors of future behavior and outcomes. And I would imagine in the same way that, on the scale of optimism and pessimism, that these stories are mutable. I know they're mutable, but they're very powerful, right? So in your kind of inquiry earlier, I was thinking about some of the stories that I've historically told myself. And a lot of them are around this idea that, you know,

I don't think I'm that talented, but I have this huge, like, work ethic capacity. I know how to suffer. I know I actually like suffering. I like, you know, I have, like, it's all imagined, you know, and it plays out as truth, but I've been able to make my way in the world and overcome whatever talent deficit gap that I have because I'm willing to and capable of outworking the next guy. And so I've relied on that story to achieve certain successes. And then I credit that story as fundamental to that success. But ultimately, I see myself moving towards burnout and having to confront these control issues

in a way that I'm now realizing, not only is it not sustainable, like it's not making me happy, right? And I have this sense that I could be more productive and I could be happier and more fruitful if I let go of this narrative and find a new one. Cool. I mean, that's the, that's like if we're swinging from vines together and you've got, you've got a bead on how this vine is getting, creating great momentum for you.

And then you grab the next one. It's not quite as sturdy, but you know you need to let go of the one that's really strong and it's got some good oomph behind it. And it's got a good anchor and lever on it to go to the new one that's a little less sturdy. But you think it's going to take you in the right direction. What if you fall? Can you figure it out? And I'm not looking at you that way. I'm saying for all of us.

So there is rational emotive therapy is like, take a look at the worst case scenario. Feel that. Really examine the worst case scenario. And oftentimes what happens if you go in that kind of dark place, if you will, and even write it down or talk about it with someone that you really trust is that you end up coming through going, well, the chances of that happening are pretty low because I'm pretty resourceful. But if it did, I'd rather go for it than not go for it. So there's something in there that ends up happening for people. But the thought that, yes, can they change? A thousand percent.

And you go back to the constriction thoughts or the expansion thoughts. You know when you belly laugh? It's really good. And it just feels really good that's space that's expansion in there and so those thoughts that lead to the freedom to have that type of experience on a regular basis wouldn't you trade a lot of that for like i don't know whatever quote-unquote successes you know outwardlyly success, isn't that like really valuable? And if we follow,

like Harvard did that 75 year study on fulfillment and that's a long study now, 75 years, right? To study fulfillment. And what they found, two of the largest pillars for fulfillment in life is grokking and wrestling with the difficult questions in life.

So not shying away from, this is a difficult question we're talking about. And I think we have, and the other one is deep relationships. It's like Susan, you know, Susan David. She's a Harvard psychologist who wrote this book, Emotional Agility. I do, I know the book.

But it's that idea, like her saying is, what is it exactly? I'm gonna butcher it. But like essentially grappling with difficult emotions is the price you pay for a meaningful life. That's right. So this success, like the idea of being fulfilled and contented in your life requires you to face these things that, you know, kind of our culture pushes up against and says, don't worry about that or take this pill or, you know, just pretend it didn't happen. And I think what's happening right now, if we kind of map

less than a hundred years, like from the industrial revolution to now, is that our ancestry at some point figured out that no machine's going to take their job. So they came home to the dinner table and they said, you know what? No machine's taking our job. We're going to work. We're going to figure it. Not in this house. And so we've been handed down that work ethic ethos. You and I certainly have, but many people have been handed that down. And then what I think what it's turned into over time as a generation of the, has muted the story, or not muted, but shifted the story just a little bit, is that I need to do extraordinary things to be extraordinary. So the thought that I need to do

more to be more, I think is wearing us out. Yeah. Well, I've definitely bought into that. Yeah. And so you're not alone, right? Yeah. But so there's a deep fatigue that will come from that model and it's time for sure right now. I think the timing of this is eloquent that let's flip the model that we need to be more and let the doing flow from that place. So the be more, be more what? Be more present, be more authentic, be here more often, be more gracious, right? Be more. And then whatever the doing that we want to experience in life, imagine the output difference. One is you get those moments and joy, you increase maybe the frequency of them. And then what would

happen to the doing if they came from a more pure place? Right. That's uncharted territory for me because i've always been the guy who who you know is up you know my operating system is if i didn't if i didn't like really suffer to create whatever i'm creating then i didn't work hard enough at it you know there's more i can i can i can extract more blood from that stone you know just a couple more all nighters, and I can make it 0.0001% better, and it's not working. Well, it got you here, it got you wherever. Well, it works, it's just not a sustainable fuel source. Right, ultimately.

And we're not fragile, humans are not fragile. We can do extraordinary things to this frame of ours. But we do need to refuel. Yeah. And so, you know, how long can you go without sleep? You can do it for a little bit, but not too long. How long can you go without water? Not that long.

You know, food, you can go a while. So, we can do extraordinary things to our body that are debilitating our resources. But that's not the big goal, right? So then what are the big movers for you? Like, what is it that you want to do in life that's driving you into, you know, I don that fundamentally it's trying to find ways to provide the most help that I can to the most people in the most substantive way, the most meaningful way. That's what gets me excited. That's what gets me out of bed in the morning. Like I love the training and all the race, whatever.

I did all those. But doing all of that in some bizarre alchemy of the galaxy has put me in this place now where now I can be a resource for other people and trying to be the best at that that I can possibly be is what I'm focused on. I love the thought, walk the talk, like talk about it, but walk about it. And you're talking about how you but walk about it. And you're

talking about how you want to walk about it. You know, you want to live that way, whatever that way is for you. That's like sturdy and nimble all in the same way. And I feel like at the same time, like so much of your work is about presence. You know, how can you be more in the moment? How can you create that space? And that, you know, these conversations are coming up more and more in my life and they're transpiring in a cultural moment in which we've never been more distracted and the demands on our attention have never been greater. Like, you know, with these things in our pocket, it's like, there's no space. There's no, anytime you're waiting in a line, you can easily find something to do with your phone. And so you have to exercise a lot more diligence around creating that space.

We're outmatched. Like technology companies that are really on it have tens to hundreds of PhDs that really understand the neurology of behavior, the thinking patterns of behavior. We're outmatched. Yeah. Do you know this guy, Tristan Harris? Sure. Yeah. Yeah.

He's doing a lot of work around that. That's right. We are completely outmatched. And, you know, he's on it. He's early in the days of it, and he's going to take on some tech giants around it. But I will say that, let's say, I'm bullish on technology. I think that, yes, we need to move in that direction. But knowing that there's a counterbalance. So I feel the same things that you do, like the draw to the dopamine hit by checking my phone, by trying to catch up with the onslaught of emails that come through.

And yes, yes, yes. At the same time, it feels irresponsible to not carve out enough time to train deep focus because that's like a multitask, thin slicing, rip and run type of experience. So then the counterbalance needs to be space to be able to condition my mind to be more present, to be more aware of what's actually happening in the internal ecosystem. And I'll tell you what, for me at least, there's a razor's edge to it. It's freaking hard to be truthful and honest and the vulnerability, even when nobody else is around, to be vulnerable with oneself is hard. And so externally, I've been fascinated by the razor's edge. That was my early fascination about sport. So, working in hostile and rugged and extreme environments, if you will.

And what I've also come to value is that some of the most intense environments are the ones that we have within just ourselves. You're sitting at home alone. There's nobody at home. You can do whatever you want. What are you going to do? Exactly. And that's the ultimate battleground, right? But when you create enough space to listen to that inner experience, that inner dialogue, that inner narrative, whatever you want to call it, which is, it's a human experience, you'll learn some stuff about yourself you don't want to be reminded of you don't want to remember that you're a coward that you're dishonest that you're afraid that you're going to be exposed and i'm checking the list for things that i don't want to say about me and i'd like to play the game

that those are not me those are for other people that's me too now and it's hard because you know what we want we want to be noble we want to be courageous we want we want? We want to be noble. We want to be courageous. We want to be caring. We want to be great as a human, as a doer and a beer. And you can't get there without some real discerning honesty. What do you consider to be your biggest challenge at the moment? I mean, since the last time we talked, your profile is growing. Your podcast is growing. You're on stage interviewing

people and you're, you know, counseling Fortune 500 companies and professional sports teams and Olympians. Like, what is it that you struggle with that you're trying to work through? In present? I mean, it's the same thing, you know, it's like signal to noise ratio. And so, It's like signal to noise ratio. And so like in the weeds, it's like, what are the most tactical decisions that set a course? And so as a business person, making those decisions with my team is challenging. And so that's part of it. No one has to pay me to do performance. I love it.

Like the performance psychology and being a craftsman, I love it. But there is a cost to it. Let's be clear. The reason there's a cost to it because it pulls me away from other loves. You know, it pulls me away from time with my family. And so there is a business model that's at play, but I love it. I made a commitment to never charge a kid again. You know, never charge a kid again,

you know, never charge a family structure again. And so I'm not doing that. I'm kind of laughing because I don't have time at this point, you know, right? But so I have two clients a month. That's how I set up the crafts part of my job that I talked about earlier. But the harder things that I'm trying to sort out is like the business decisions that are happening real time and very quickly that keeping up with the momentum. It feels like we're running downhill, which is a great place to be. But at any given point in time, it feels like I could easily slip, skid my elbows, leave some blood on the turf. And so I don't want to be anywhere else. But those are the challenges. And then, you know, even internally in our business, like Coach Carroll and I from the Saddle Seahawks, we've built this business together, is like getting the culture of our business right is challenging as well.

You know, we're highly thoughtful and ambitious people that have independent thinkers. Like, how do you get all of our noses to line up in the same way? That's not easy too. And so what is it that you're trying to achieve? Like what is the legacy that you aspire to? Yeah, I was going to ask you the same question. I asked you first. I know. And I'll answer it. I'll say it tongue in cheek, like one in seven. I'll say it tongue-in-cheek, like one in seven. And so one in seven people would be this amazing idea to help.

Let me start where this thought originated. So we're working with a world-class organization, and the CEO, Satya Nadella, says, this is like, I'd love this for 100,000 people. And that's like, whoa. And so we started really small. We incubated small. And so the thought going into that was like, okay, well, how do we get to one in seven in the organization? And if we can get to seven, or I've been talking, I've been like thinking one in five, the first thought was one in five, because everybody has five friends,

you know, like that thought. And so, but I think the number is probably one in seven if we really want to have larger impact outside of one business. So, let's just use the one in five for example right now. One in five people in Microsoft. Then what about one in five people in another company? What about one in five people on the West Coast of America? What about one in five people in America? And what if we could do one in five people over two continents? Like, would that be crazy?

That would be crazy. And what is it that you're trying to do with that one out of five? There's only three things that we can train as humans. We can train our craft, our body, and our mind. And what if one out of five people, we can help increase the frequency of them living in the present moment by showing them not just the value of it, but how to train and condition your mind to manage the noise, to get to the signal more often. Because the signal, the present moment is where it's found, is where the most extraordinary experiences in life happen. And so that becomes, for me, this really beautiful thought about a pebble in a pond. And if we can get that pebble to resonate in the right way, the ripple effect, the relationships that people have with other people, it feels like it's extraordinary

and wonderful. And there's a business on the back of that, for sure. I'm not lost on that. But that's what we want to do. One in five people, show them and hold them accountable and love them and support them and challenge them to condition and train their mind to be more present. To be more, to do more. I like how clear you are on that. Oh, yeah. You've definitely thought that through. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, and that's where the Finding Mastery podcast has been like this fun accelerant to it. Now, in the podcast, there are high-level conversations. You know, we don't get too deep into the weeds of how, but there are certainly things, and we can talk about today, but there's certainly some very practical things that we can all do to set us down that path a little bit further. Well, one of the things you talk about a lot is the importance of having a philosophy, right? Like, what is your life philosophy? And if you can't articulate that, then there's some work to be done there, right? So, when I ask you about legacy and you answered the way that you did so eloquently, is that different from, like, if I asked you what's your philosophy,

is it similar or? No, that's a cool question. No. Um, so what I described is not necessarily legacy at all. What I described as a mission. So I actually have a little bit of an aversion to the thought of legacy because it feels like to me, when I think of the word legacy, I think about what other people will think about me when I'm gone. I don't care. I'm not motivated or driven by that in any shape or form. But I do have this insatiable mission that feels right for me and my family to go on this mission together. And I'm not alone on this.

My wife is like, phew. You know, like, I mean, since we were 16, you know, like we- You guys have been together forever, right? Yeah. Like this, that's just, so, and she's got her path and I've got my path, but it's a commitment that we make together. There's been lots of sacrifices, you know, that we've made together. Like for 18 years, every Saturday night, I was in a sweaty gym with about a hundred athletes trying to sort out my craft. So that's 18 years, every Saturday night, I was in a sweaty gym with about 100 athletes trying to sort out my craft. So that's 18 years. Every Saturday night, we didn't have date night. Like, what an

angel. You know, like, seriously, like, wow. Thank you, Lisa. You know, so there's that part. But so for me, it feels like a mission, not about a legacy, but a philosophy are the guiding principles that help me line up my thoughts, my words, and my actions to have true alignment with the mission. So, philosophy is different. Those are the principles. The mission is like, what am I hungry for? And so, those are the two. And the mission that I just described, you can have a couple missions. They need to hang together. Thinking about being a world-class swimmer and then a world-class pianist is probably not going to quite work out in the right way. So I've got a couple sub-missions, or the way I think about it is that's my main business mission. I've also got a mission as a relationship-based man, a spiritual man as well.

But I feel like I'm getting in the weeds a little bit to answer your question. Right, but do you, so in thinking about that, like I'm just thinking about how like that clarity of thought about the mission works with this idea of being rooted in the present. Like, are you somebody who's like, okay, here's my five-year plan and here's how it's gonna map out? Or are you somebody who is like, look, I trust when I, here's my philosophy, here's my mission and I'm showing up for it

and then I adapt in the circumstances that present themselves. And I don't stay wed to, like it has to look a certain way a year from now or five years from now. Oh yeah, That's a cool thought, isn't it? Like, especially how quickly technology is changing. But I do know, I don't know how to answer that. And you know my history well enough that I got out of high school with not a clue what to do. I got out of my first year of my first college with bachelor's degree with not a clue what to do. I dropped out of my first year of my first college with bachelor's degree with not a clue what to do.

I dropped out of my master's program because it wasn't right. I thought it was going to be. I got out of my, and then I went back to a different school, a different course of study. I got out of my master's program without really a clue to do. My last semester of my master's program, and the dean of the school says, Mike, everyone else has signed up for PhD programs. What are you doing? And I said- I'm going surfing. Really? And I said, no, no, I'm everyone else has signed up for PhD programs. What are you doing? And I said- I'm going surfing.

Really? And I said, no, no, I'm not cut out to be a PhD. She said, you've got, you're summa cum laude. What are you talking about? Go anywhere you want. And so, I don't have this great ability to say the vision that I'm setting, by hell or high water, that's what's going to happen. But I do have a sense that of what the world, my world, and people that I care about, what their world would look like if one in five people in our ecosystems were more deeply connected to each other in the present moment, like how extraordinary that would be. So I have that thought, which is a cool thought for me. That's the vision that I'm holding to. Now, the tactics to get there, two years ago, I didn't think we were going to have the challenge that we're having on cascading. And what's the word I'm looking for?

Like the cascade, like to take the ideas and be able to spread them across many different ecosystems. So we're trying to figure out the right technology to do that as well. So I don't have the tactic like, it's going to be this. But, you know, so that's where we are right now. I like it, man. It's ambitious, but there's so much heart in that, you know? Yeah, well, you know, I want to figure it out, you know? So, okay, so now over to you. Uh-oh. Yeah. So, well, you started with legacy, you know, and I'm not critical at all if you say, like, no, I think about legacy. Like, I'd like to hear how you think.

Yeah, I don't know that I think about legacy. I think about, you know, and this is always evolving for me, and it's certainly changed even in the years since I first met you. You know, like I said earlier, what excites me is trying to activate people in a positive way, in a real way, like in a way that can really catalyze significant, sustainable change in them. And initially it began with diet

and through telling my story and helping people rethink the limits of their own personal potential. But I'm starting to think of it more broadly and I'm trying to kind of transcend this like vegan athlete sort of story. And the podcast experience in that, this adventure that I've been on the last five years,

I've been exposed to so many extraordinary people. And it's given me the opportunity to be a cipher for incredible ideas that I think can be transformative to people. And when I kind of take a look at culture and society, like I don't see a very good picture. You know, we're this incredibly prosperous society, but most people are unhappy. We're overly med prosperous society, but most people are unhappy. We're overly medicated. 70% of us are obese or overweight. We're dropping dead from diabetes and heart disease and cancer and all of these conditions that are part and parcel of this modern world that we live in. And it's more than a malaise. It's a cultural disease. And so, you know, my work and my mission and my interest stems from trying to get people to wake up from whatever waking dream that they're living in to seize more autonomy over the direction of their life.

And it can begin with food, it can begin with mindfulness, it can begin with exercise, there's many points of entry, but to the extent that I can find a way to, you know, connect with people that listen to the podcast or read my books or hear me talk to activate them, to rethink their preset ideas that are based on social programming to exercise more domain over that. Like that's what I'm interested in. And it's not nearly as eloquent or well thought out as yours, but that's kind of where my head's at, I guess, in a more amorphous way.

So I had the same thought, like, okay, he's thought about that. And you know what might be fun for us to do as a project together? And I, okay, so I like when people say, yeah, that's a cool idea. And I love when people say that's a bad idea. Because I say yes to a lot, like I like to have ideas. So if it's a bad idea, please, I would love if you said it's a bad idea. Okay. We don't have the time to waste on just okay ideas. Okay. But what if we put a little challenge together and we did a philosophy challenge? And so the word philosophy can sound daunting. It can sound like this ivory tower experience. It's not. It's like, what are the guiding principles? And maybe what if we walked both of our communities through in some way, in a challenge, to write down their philosophy?

And to do it in a way that maybe in all... So here's the challenge, right? In all the words of your native tongue, can you choose something that's 25 words or less, hopefully less, because the litmus test for us is can you get your philosophy out in a dark alley under duress, right? That's when you know it's really real. And so, like, can you get it out? And then can you act on it? Okay. So, but what if we could start with the thinking part and have some sort of contest or challenge? I don't know how to do this. You're better at this than I am, where people submit or do something. And we create a community of people that are switched on about your idea,

like to activate, to wake them up in some sort of way. But they actually do the work to say, what is my philosophy? And they write it down. And then, I don't know. I don't know what to do from there. But I do know that it is a significant, I mean, and I've said that word a few times, but it's a really nice thing to add to the progressive way of living. And when I say progressive, I mean creating as much space and expansion internally as you can so you can play, so you can be free. And I feel like that's a really significant way to do it. I love that idea. I think that's cool. How I feel like that's a really significant way to do it. So- I love that idea.

I think that's cool. Like, how would we do that? I guess, I mean, you could create some kind of portal where people could share these things. Are you thinking like a public forum where everybody's- Well, okay, so let's say that 20,000 people- Or a closed group or something like that. I don't know.

I really don't know. I mean, but I'd like to do this together and like, we'll just walk through what a philosophy is. Maybe we'll do it on a separate conversation and we'll just fire that up, send it out. People will like, we can send them some sort of documentation on how to do it or think about it. And I don't want to have a competition who's the best philosophy because it's all going to come down to like a couple.

Getting people to think about that and practice that I think could be really powerful. Yeah. And then, and then, and then getting their loved one or someone they work with, get their philosophy. So one of the things we've done at Microsoft is we've asked people to write their philosophy down and then ask the people that they work with what their philosophy is, because it's born on this idea that if we're going to go do difficult things together, right, to do the extraordinary is going to be difficult. There's no shortcut to it. Like, we're going to meet some rough waters. That we need to lock arms with each other. And when we lock arms, we want to keep them locked when it gets difficult and not save our own ass and grab, you know, unlock to, you know,

like, that's not how we're going move through life into the uncharted territory. So it's an accelerant to relationships, and relationships, tightly bonded relationships that are mission-minded and really understand the deeper parts of what and why we are who we are. We found that to be an accelerant to performance. And that's Coach Carroll's model. Yeah, I mean, it's gotta be a window into,

you know, how people think and operate too. Like when you force somebody to actually write that down, cause we just, we project our ideas of people onto everybody we meet, right? And we just, we assume they have the same philosophy that we do, you know? And they don't, what do you know? Yeah, it's like, and you don't know

until you're in a sticky situation and the practice of that philosophy, you know, becomes manifest and you realize, oh, we're not on the same page at all. That's right. And so there's a lot of assumptions. There's a lot of biases that we have when we're interpreting behaviors and thoughts and nonverbal thoughts or nonverbal actions. Is that right? Nonverbal. Nonverbal.

Nonverbal actions. What is that? Yeah, there's a lot of assumptions we make. So doing the work ahead of time is like the front loading, the relationship to be able to go the distance with each other. And so if we could find something, I'd love to do that. Yeah, well, we could talk about it after this, and then maybe in the introductory part of this or whatever, we can leave a call to action for people. That's cool. Which would be cool.

When you present people with that question, I would imagine there's a lot of people who've never been asked that question before and don't even know how to begin to answer it. So if somebody's listening to this and they're like, yeah, I don't know what my philosophy is. Well, there's a couple ways to get started. One is there's no right and wrong. It's an authentic expression of the principles that matter most to you. So, it is born from you. That being said, there are easy examples of philosophies at play in action. And so, we don't have to reinvent the wheel. We can adopt somebody's philosophy that has been forged, you know? And so let's take a look at the spiritual leaders or political leaders and like,

what is their philosophy? And the reason you know someone's philosophy is because across environments, friendly environments to hostile environments, they have consistency about their thoughts, their words, and their actions. Because all decisions and actions derive from that core. That's exactly it. So, you know, it's easy, like, think about Martin Luther King Jr., Dr. King. You know what he thought about a lot? Equality. You know what his words were about? Like, I have a dream about men and women being equality. And you know what his actions were about? He went and created rallies and he created, you know, environments where people could activate on equality.

That is so clean and crisp. But most people don't have one core idea that drives them to that extent, right? Like, well, I'm interested in lots of things. I think that that's accurate. Yeah. I think that that's very accurate. It's the rare individual who makes one idea their mission. So, he turned his philosophy into a mission. So, his philosophy was about equality. And then he had

some other words that he would... I got you. Right? And so, let's do Malcolm X. His philosophy was also about equality, but the style in which he went about it was dramatically different. So one's not right and wrong, but it's got to be right for you. And so if we look at Gandhi, we look at Mother Teresa, we look at Rosa Parks, we look at Helen Keller. You can find extraordinary people in the world. Jesus was very clear. Love. It's pretty simple, right? Buddha was pretty simple. And I'm reducing 2,000-year, 2,500-year-old religions down to a word. That's not fair. But Buddhism was loving kindness. Like all people are suffering, people suffer. So let's act in loving kindness. So the philosophy of loving kindness is the core principle.

Right. And I know I'm making it- No, I know, I totally follow. Yeah. Yeah. So there's already wonderful models, but I think it's time, like put your funk on it. What is yours? And so that's where you start,

listening, reading, exploring, writing. And so- Come on, Michael. I don't have time for that. Yeah. So just- Tell me how to- You just want to hack it? I just want to find mastery. Come on, tell me the five steps to mastery. How about I give you your philosophy to life? Is that what you do? Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure you get this. So tell me, Michael, you sit down with all these high performers, like how do they do it?

Wait, we're actually talking about it. Yeah. Yeah. And they work their ass off and they recover. And they're pretty principle-based, most of them. Let's talk about balance. Can we do that? The mythical ridgeline of balance.

Yeah. Let's talk about balance. Can we do that? The mythical ridgeline of balance. Yeah. What's your perspective on the conversation that swirls around the primacy or irrelevance of balance in the context of living authentically and performing your potential? I think balance is so overrated. This concept, like the mythical ridgeline that one day I'll have balance. I don't know anyone that has balance. I don't have balance. And so I think

it's way overrated. And the thought that you're supposed to have balance or that I'm supposed to have balance create incredible stress for me. A lot of self-judgment. Yeah. So I say, forget about it. That's what I say. I say, forget about this idea of balance and work on being present. And so- Is there a different word, like equanimity? Like, is there a different word that would capture- You are so smart. I don't really even know what that means. I like to use it too. I don't know if I know what it means either. Yeah. I think that maybe, but you know what balance conjures up is like, I've got the right balance in my life between work, between family life, between hobbies, between whatever.

I don't know anyone that has that. I really don't. And so, I think the way to inoculate that thought is to one, just kind of square it up and say, is that really what I want? For me, that's not what I want. What I want is I want to be fully immersed in wherever I am with this incredible passion that feels right to me, like an inner fire that's alive in the moment. And you know how I know that that's what I want or one of the things I want is because when I'm tired or when I'm fatigued or when I'm fearful, it doesn't come out. And remember the story of me surfing?

That's what happened. When I was so scared about what could go wrong, this is early on, early days, is that I couldn't go to the place of that true, authentic expression, the creative, off-access view of the world to be about it. And that's what you lit up for me in our first conversation. Like, yeah. I think many of us have that. You know, so. Yeah. I mean, I don't know.

I feel most alive when I am completely immersed in something. And then because of that kind of social pressure and the conventional ideas around balance, then I start to sense guilt in myself and then self-judgment. Shame and guilt, shame and guilt, shame and guilt. Yeah, and then you've got another little thought that creeps in there, which is, man, this thing that I'm doing that I'm fully immersed in, it better be perfect. Right. You know, like, and that- Because I could be doing this or maybe I should be doing this and not this.

Yeah, psychologists are not funny people, but there's a joke. Stop shooting on yourself. It smells. You know? So like that word should, you know, that's another challenge. Maybe we could do some sort of fun challenge with your community about, you know, dropping the word should, dropping the word have to, gotta, musta, you know, dropping those words because they create something that is less than. And so I should have, you know,

it leaves a residue of not being good enough. And so, I don't know. I love the thought. I mean, that's a big, oh, sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt you. Oh, no, no, no. I just say I love to go from thought to action. Yeah.

So getting that kind of thing to actually happen for people is some of the more challenging parts. I think that's a missing piece in this podcast adventure that I've been on. There's all the information, but there isn't enough. And there's takeaways and all that good stuff, but there isn't enough action steps. So for you, I wanted to share this thought.

For you is the talk about it, walk about it piece. You living the search of self-disco you living the search of self-discovery, the process of self-discovery and living in an authentic way about it and not having all the answers because people listen to you, oh my God, smart, talented, good looking, fill in the blanks.

You're looking at me like I'm a- I'm gonna screw up as the next guy. So just being about it, that's really important. And I think that I realized early on that some folks would say to me, hey, can you just show up at the competition? And I didn't understand it. Now, looking back, I understand. I just reminded them, like, hey, no matter what happens, it's good. You're extraordinary as a human. This is so much fun.

What a gift to be able to lay it on the line. And that reminder that I don't need to be perfect. I just would show up that, I don't know, that would happen long ago. You're doing that for hundreds of thousands of people. Hey, we're okay. You know, like let's keep learning and growing. So just going on the journey is an incredible, you know, imprint on wellness, on performance. So I just want to say that out loud for you. So I've appreciated it. I appreciate that, man. Thank you. Yeah. I mean, I think, look, man, I'm just trying to figure it out like everyone else. You know what I mean? Me too. look man I'm just trying to figure it out like everyone else you know what I mean me too and uh and I don't have all the answers but I can tell you I've learned a lot over the

last five years and I can't imagine my life without without this podcast it's been unbelievable uh the exposure that it's that it's given me and the audience to all these amazing minds that are doing incredible things and when you said earlier like you hey, I'm a fan of technology. It's like, look what technology allows us to do, unfiltered, without any middle person, to just connect with people who, you know, look, we live in Los Angeles. We're, you know, amidst, you know, a community of all kinds of different people. But, you know, there's people all over the world that listen to your podcast and my podcast who feel alone in their communities and don't have the exposure to some of these people.

So it's a gift. And when you talk about getting rid of the shoulds and the have tos, like that's something I learned early on in recovery is to banish those and replace them with the get, like I get to do this. I get to do this. And that's a very active way of practicing gratitude, bringing gratitude into your life.

So a very applied way, right? So you can say the concept or the thought and even back in all the science that would help support it. But until you practice it, it's not real. It's just really not real. You know what? I just have thought a solution. Maybe we'll dub this in later.

Is that, let's say the philosophy or something. So we're going to fire up this thing called Live in the Tribe. So we've got Finding Mastery Tribe, and it's a group of people that are supporting and challenging each other. And so we're going to do Live in the Tribe. It's going to be on Facebook, but maybe we do something live, you and I, and we go on and we prime people like when this conversation lands or when you air this conversation and say in three days, six days or whatever, we figured this out together. And then we have a conversation live on the tribe together.

And then that could be like whoever kind of like blows us away or I don't know how to actually rate them because I'm enamored with all of them. They're all equally good. So maybe it's a first person. I don't know how to actually rate them because I'm enamored with all of them. They're all equally good. So maybe it's a first person. I don't know what we do, you know, or the first person that got five people to do one with them. And so. I like that, Matt. Yeah. Wouldn't that be fun?

That would be cool. Yeah. Well, what's really lighting me up about this whole thing is just the idea of moving into this more action-oriented phase of activating people, you know, in a way that in a way that there's practices and tools that are actually available to people that can move the needle for them. I like that. So thank you for that. Thank you.

I think we did it, dude. How long have we been going? We're an hour and a half, that's good, man. Yeah, no, I was afraid that you and I were gonna go for like three hours and I was like, I'm not gonna be that guy. So thank you for the time. Good, thank you, man. How do you feel?

Great. Feel good? Yeah, thank you. You ready to eat? I am. Let's eat, man. Thanks for coming out. So I'm ending this like it's my podcast,

but I was gonna say, if you wanna connect with Michael, he's easy to find, findingmastery.com. Dot net. Dot net, that's right to find, findingmastery.com. Dot net. Dot net, that's right. Michael Gervais on Twitter and Instagram. And the Finding Mastery podcast, wherever you listen to fine podcasts, check it out. And I want to upload this on Finding Mastery as well.

So check out Rich's podcast. If you haven't done it, make sure you're connected, richroll.com. Is that right? And again, where all the podcast players are. And your Twitter handle is? At Richroll. That's right. And Instagram as well?

Same thing. Same thing. It's easy when you got a cool name like that. So make sure you check it out. And the inspired conversations that are happening there are beautiful. And go back to the source of why I even got into space was because Rich created an ecosystem where it felt wonderful to explore and to do it in a way that could, um, be authentic. So thank you. Yeah. And, uh, and thank you for, uh, deciding to do it and taking it next level. Let's go to

need to inspire me. So proud to be your friend. Thank you. All right. Peace, my friend until next time. We'll do it again soon. All right, I hope you guys enjoyed that. I have no doubt that there will be a round four in the not too distant future. He's just, he's too good. He's full of too much wisdom. It's amazing. I just absolutely adore talking to him

and sharing these conversations with you guys. But, you know, it's really funny. So after the podcast, Mike and his lovely wife stayed over for dinner and Julie made this amazing feast. And it was the first time that Mike had met Julie. And at the dinner table, Mike starts doing what he does, you know, probing her like only he can do. And Julie ends up taking Michael down this crazy spiritual rabbit hole, which was wild. I got to tell you, it made me a little bit nervous, but it was also super entertaining.

And I think Michael might be having Julie on his Finding Mastery podcast, which should be fascinating. I'll keep you posted on that. And by the way, I know I've said it before, but I'm going to say it again. You should all definitely subscribe to Finding Mastery. It's fantastic. Anyway, let Mike know what you thought of today's conversation at Michael Gervais on Twitter. Give him a shout. As always, check out the show notes for links and resources related to today's conversation to expand the horizons of our conversation. All of that's on the episode page at richroll.com. Plant Power Way Italia,

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