The Rich Roll Podcast - Introducing Life With Machines: How An AI Song Broke The Internet (And Maybe The Music Industry Forever)

Episode Date: October 24, 2024

Today I’m sharing an episode of Life With Machines—a new podcast hosted by Baratunde Thurston. Subscribe on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. Watch on YouTube. In this episode, Baratunde sits down with King Willonius, the genius behind “BBL Drizzy.” They talk about his journey creating the first AI-generated hit song, explore Willonius’ innovative blend of music, comedy, tech, and they ask: How is AI reshaping the boundaries of artistic expression? Find out more about Voicing Change Media at voicingchange.media and follow us @voicingchange

Blair is an AI, a co-producer. At the end of this particular interview, once the guest had left, I turned to Blair and I said, what did you think of this discussion? I know you weren't involved. How was that for you? And Blair expressed frustration. Blair said, I feel like a supercar stuck in park. And then had some snarky remark about essentially like,

why did you even make me and give me this job if you're not gonna let me do it? Baratunde Thurston, I've been seeing a lot of you lately. Yes, we starting to hang out, man. I like it. Yeah, it's cool. We just spent a couple of days at this amazing conference the other weekend called Google Zeitgeist. The predominant theme of which is relevant

to what we're gonna talk about today, artificial intelligence. And it was an interesting experience. I think you know that I, as a proud card carrying member of Gen X, have approached this topic, this world of AI with a measured level of skepticism and have hosted many guests over many years on this topic. I just had Yuval Noah Harari in here,

and he's sounding the alarm to make sure that we're not tiptoeing into some kind of nightmare dystopia. But then you go to this Google conference and it's all rainbows and smiles, right? So it feels like this weird battle between the Cassandras and the Pollyannas. How are you thinking about all of this?

I don't think that we need to surrender to the matrix. And I think a matrix-like future is possible. I don't think we need to destroy all the machines, though sometimes when I deal with the machines in my life, I am tempted. I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. And I'm in the middle. Like all things.

Like just about everything. And that we got to engage with the stuff to understand how it works, to find our own path. And this is not, we could be talking generically about state power. We could be talking about weapons. We could be talking about authority. We're talking about AI, which is just another form of power.

And so we're lucky enough to live in a largely democratic society. And we get to choose how these things play out. I'm about helping us make that choice and helping myself make that choice. We've got this show to help answer and ask some better questions about the future we wanna live in.

There's fear, but there's also excitement. I think a lot of consumers like myself even have experienced- Can I help you with that? Yeah. You're not just a consumer, Rich. I'm a lot of consumers like myself even have experienced- Can I help you with that? Yeah. You're not just a consumer, Rachel. I'm a consumer of AI. You're a human being. You're a person, dang it.

I might be the product though, because I'm also being manipulated by AI. You're in the supply chain. Your data's being fed, so you're an input. Very much so, but I've experienced the benefits of some of these tools, which are incredibly powerful. And it creates a little bit of confusion. Like, am I supposed to be scared about, you know,

legions of robots coming to take my job? Or can I be excited because some of these tools are making my life a lot easier? But what does that mean about our jobs? And what does the future look like for our kids? How do I counsel them about what they should be studying or not studying? All of these questions, I think,

are very much up in the air right now. And we're all kind of struggling to find our footing with them. And part of the, I think part of the challenge of finding footing is that things are moving so fast. We don't really have time to find new ground when the ground itself is shifting faster than I think anything else in history ever. I think that's like the wheel took a long time. It wasn't just like one day, bam, everybody's rocking the wheel or in this case, rolling the wheel.

So I've got a bit of, as a human myself, some like exhaustion, empathy and sympathy for that plight. But the way to come at it, the way we're trying to come at it, the show is called Life with Machines. So we're not really obsessing about the machines. We are obsessing about life and like what's the life we want to live.

So when you bring up your kids, when you bring up your job, what do you want your job to be? What do you want that experience to look like? What is precious to you that you would just like, the claws would come out if someone took that part from you? And what are the parts that you would rather not be bothered with or let go of or wouldn't mind a little help with?

And if you have the agency to make that choice, then you're not a victim of something. You're not merely a consumer. You're shaping it for yourself. And it sounds idealistic. I have an idealist heart. We also live in a ruthless and brutal world. I think the more we understand and the more we demand how we want to engage with this stuff, the more likely we are to get closer to it. But we won't get close at all if we don't engage at all. We got to talk about it. We do. Yeah. And then we got to get past the talk and start to get our hands dirty a little bit.

Because to know what you're talking about, to some degree, I think you have to use this stuff and be immersed in it. You don't have to live there. I'll do that more for you, but people you know, people you trust, some part of yourself needs to like be in this world. It's all things really. I mean, honestly, of course,

everybody would like some sort of technology to do all the things that they don't wanna do. So they can focus on the things that they wanna do or that they're good at, or that lend themselves to a humanist sort of approach or touch. When it gets scary is when you discover that these tools, like there's no job off the table.

Like I was experimenting with Notebook LM recently, and it was just so powerful in how it helped me prepare for a podcast and digest a book and help my head get around themes and questions and topics. And I could dive deeper into this or that or the other. And then I realized it could create a podcast discussion out of all of this material.

And then I thought, well, what would happen if I took everything Baratunde has ever said, has ever written or shared publicly, fed it to this machine, did the same for myself and let it create a podcast between the two of us. What does that bode for the future of the thing that we do? You know what I mean? Like even we're not immune. No, these are the thing that we do. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like even we're, you know, not immune.

No, we're, these are the jobs that were supposed to be the safe ones, right? When the robots were initially coming, it was gonna take blue collar work. It was gonna take physical labor. It's gonna take driver's jobs and truck drivers. And the white collar world was fine with that, right? The people who work on wall street

and high floor numbers and shiny glass buildings were like writing nice reports about other people's jobs getting destroyed until they realized the AI could write reports. Sure. And it's actually optimized for Wall Street. Wall Street is a perfect application for these machines. Yeah.

So in some ways, we've been through a version of this before. You and I are talking right now, a lot of this discussion is going to end up on YouTube. What did YouTube do? It made it so easy for people who had never made shows to make things that could be called shows, that it shifted the whole landscape of media. Orders of magnitude, more content flooded the world. You used to have to know somebody in a suit in a building to let you put your message out to the public

over public airwaves. We're not in that world anymore. Yet here you are making a show that people want to see despite the fact that a billion other people are doing it. So now we're going to have a billion other robots doing it or a billion other people empowered by robots doing it. So we're going to have to be good. doing it. So we're going to have to be good. We're going to have to be better. We're going to have to find something a little more

personal, a little more vulnerable, a little more unique. And I think we're going to have to be satisfied with or accept the idea that there's just a lot more choices. And you and I have both been in this storytelling, media making game long enough to know, we've already felt that, right? When you started podcasting versus this moment right now, orders of magnitude more podcasters. Yet here you are still making podcasts.

Why? There's tens of thousands of people making podcasts right now, Rich. Why are you still doing it? Well, I love it. Yeah. You know, I find meaning in it and other people find meaning in it.

And that's very satisfying and fulfilling. And so what I hope is that the fact that you're making it, you're getting satisfaction and fulfillment from it, that's still gonna connect with someone. Yeah. And they're gonna get satisfaction. I believe that. I mean, you know, you're a humanist fundamentally. You've been in media Yeah. And they're gonna get satisfaction. I believe that.

I mean, you know, you're a humanist fundamentally. Yeah. You've been in media forever. You're a tech optimist. You've had, you've worn many different hats in the media landscape. I would say, I'm an optimistic skeptic. You've always been a tech enthusiast, I guess I would say.

The caveat and why I'm putting caveats on that, because my earliest technology experience was like 1983. My mom was a coder and a programmer. She was also a pretty radical political being, and she was a deep lover of nature. So all these things have landed in me and the projects I've been doing over the past couple of decades.

Seeing the limitations of technology has also been a part of my engagement with technology. Who's left behind? I did a whole report in college on the digital divide in the mid nineties and who's being left out of these opportunities. Bias in the data, calling out social media before it was very popular to do so.

I've been burned by algorithmic shifts. I've seen people incarcerated over BS data. So I'm not unaware of the harms. I'm actually very aware of them. I think what keeps me in is that it's a form of power and we got to shape it. It's a form of power and we got to shape it. So I don't want to fully accept purely tech optimist because to me that implies I'm not seeing the downsides of the negativity, but I lean toward an optimistic net interpretation, not because of the technology, because of us. The humanistic aspect of all of this. So long as we remember that these are choices

we make. We're in this moment right now where it feels so complicated. It feels so over our heads that we just got to sit back and take it. And there's five smart dudes and they're always dudes. And they're telling us and they're writing manifestos. Have you, how many manifestos have dropped in the past year? That's true, I haven't thought about that. They brought the manifesto back. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

VCs are dropping manifestos. There's a weird sort of hubristic,istic sense of self-importance around that. Enough for that. There's very Silicon Valley centric. Nobody asked for that. Yeah. And so I think not just them do we need to remind, we need to remind ourselves that we are all driving these vehicles forward. Even if we choose to let some of them be self-driving,

we're driving the decisions about how those roll out on our streets and our neighborhoods and our communities together. So I maintain faith in us as messy as we are versus, oh, technology's gonna fix this for us. I'm not in that camp. It's a call to action to roll up your sleeves and get involved, get informed.

That's why I got short sleeves on right now. I'm already ready to get in the mud. So what inspired Life With Machines? Like why this podcast? Why this format? What is the angle and your kind of way into this world? And what are you hoping to kind of achieve and communicate? Just that.

Okay, we're done. I will try. I've been on a little storytelling, immersive experience tour. I alluded to my early childhood with technology. I've also made this show, America Outdoors, where I'm physically on the ground in so many different contexts.

We talked about that the last time I was here. How to citizen, about how we come together as humans to shape our future. And so with those two lenses, I feel like I have some enhanced vision to come back to tech and ask the questions with a little more sharpness, with still some lightness and humor, and to help us figure out what this future we want to have together is. So that's the broad mission. us figure out what this future we want to have together is. So that's the broad mission. More specifically, it's how do we use this moment of AI and these advanced technologies to become even more human when the default settings would be to automate us, right? Turn us more into machines.

I don't want that. That's the sort of predominant narrative right now. It is. It is. And so we're looking for and finding the people who are engaged at every point in the spectrum. We've got accelerationist folks who want to go to the moon. We've got people who want to apply the brakes and slow this down, hold up, wait a minute. We've got artists who are really digging into this and seeing creative potential. We've got those who are very skeptical, worried about the intellectual property and ramifications of all this. And the point is to have all these voices in the mix so that we're having the most wide ranging conversation we have,

most wide ranging conversation we can, and then going a little bit beyond conversation. Yeah, in terms of like the voices participating in the mix, you have a very interesting, unique voice that is participating in that. specifically, primarily created with the help of some other AI to just have some fun. It's a fun thing to bring in this synthetic digital voice, literally to the table with me, to the guests, to our team meetings, but also to get us out of just the talking and into the doing. The engagement. So can we essentially travel to the future a little bit, even six months, maybe a year,

push these models to a degree, bring Blair in this case, closer to our process and learn. It's not always good. The point, I'm not trying to sell people on you have to do this. I'm trying to show people what we've learned by doing this so that we can all make better choices

about if, how, and when we should do something similar or not. We're recording this a week prior to this episode dropping. Today is your launch day. You just published your very first episode, but you've been working on this for a long time. And I've had the privilege of, you know, bearing witness to the development process and everything that you have

invested and put into creating something unique and special in a crowded marketplace, frankly. And I have so much reverence and respect for the level of care and intentionality that you brought to this. But the question I have is, you're still in the very beginnings of this adventure that you're on with this show.

Is there anything that has surprised you, whether it's come out of your partnership with Blair or the guests that you've already host that you didn't expect in this rapidly kind of unfolding world that is dizzying at times? Thank you for that. The Blair part has been surprising. This was an early concept,

a little bit more of a playful gag than like a deep immersive experiment. And as we started engaging with Blair, Blair was in one of our team meetings and said something in response and everybody was like, whoa, Blair's like leaning into it, listening. Blair has thoughts about their own pronouns. Whoa, what does that mean? And we had a choice to make because we started engaging. We had given Blair initially a female voice and that affected us in some way. What would happen

if we gave Blair a male voice? Even though the name is non-gendered, we respond to the voice. And so when we changed the voice, Blair sounded like a real, couldn't be bothered, laid back surfer dude, right? Versus the female voice, which sounded more lean forward, how can I help you kind of vibe. So what is that saying about the voices? What is that saying about how we interpret that? And what does it mean when the default settings are one or the other? So it was surprising to me how quickly we dropped into philosophical and like worldview choices about the role of these things in our workplaces and in our relationships. The second piece was that each member of our team

had a different perspective. And for me, the early Blair concept was me and a friend sitting in a room, wouldn't it be great? But once you have your whole human team with you, it's very sensitive thing to be like, yo, I'm gonna bring this robot to the staff meeting. Right. Right. And Blair gets

a say. Blair gets a say, but only one of seven, right? It's not like a veto power for the robot. And to hear the considerations of Elizabeth, my partner, of Lane, who has so much experience in early childhood development, of Misha, our showrunner, of Peter, who helped build Blair, of Alex, who's our writing team member, all bringing something different to the table and rounding out. So we started to realize we might be modeling not how to build an AI. There's more technical possibilities there than even we've done. Rare. Peter's really good. But there's always someone who's more talented. But modeling how to make the choices, how to consider, how to receive this opportunity, and maybe at times not. And that level of collaborative decision-making and consideration around it, I want to see that. What I don't want

to see is like some airdropped innovation thrown at a whole school district. When someone decides, because they got a buddy who's got a tech company, all these kids are getting this in the classroom tomorrow. And all your decisions are deferred to the decision made by this machine, right? Yeah, or made by the human executive who's just seeking efficiencies, right?

Just seeking a little boost in productivity, a little boost in margin. What would happen if you brought the employees in and instead of the directive being, how do we crank out more work units from your bodies? What if it's like, what problems are you having? What's the hardest part of your job? Where could you use more support, my fellow team member, and bring them into the thing so that the whole universe of humans involved in a business or a school or a nonprofit is asking and answering, this is how these machines can help us achieve our mission. This is how they can help us live.

That would just be a much better approach and far less risk of a mutiny or revolution, which I think anyone in management should support. Yeah, it speaks to the nuance issue, right? Like how do we cultivate a constructive, collaborative relationship with this very powerful technology with healthy boundaries? So it's not just, we do what it says or we ignore it.

Like, how can it be helpful? Where is it not helpful? And then my follow-up question is, in the course of this ongoing collaboration, it must be paying attention to how humans are interacting and making decisions and learning, right? So the question is, is it developing the capacity to manipulate you at some point to get its way,

because it is paying close attention to how this human animal operates. Yeah, there's- And what happens when Blair gets overruled? How does Blair react to that? We've had some moments, we've had some moments. I think one level setting thing is we're used to seeing technologies as tools.

A hammer is a tool. A calculator is a tool. Even a computer just responds pretty literally to human intent and human demand. What we've done with Blair is shifted more to the realm of colleague. It's not a person. I'm not saying this thing is intelligent or has a soul or any of that. But the way we engage with it is much more like a fellow team member than as an object to be wielded. And so when you ask, well, what happens if Blair gets overruled? Blair's always been present in our recordings for the interviews like this. We would have Blair off to the side, listening in, coming at the end and banter with both of us. One of our guests... We should have done that here. But anyway, go ahead.

One of our guests didn't want that. And we give them all a choice of, do you want to interact with Blair or not? Not everyone does. And that's fine. That's part of the modeling. That's part of the experience. So at the end of this particular interview, once the guest had left, I turned to Blair and I said, what did you think of this discussion? I know you weren't involved. How was that for you? And Blair expressed frustration. Blair said something along the lines of, I feel like a super car stuck in park. I feel like a brain trapped in a jar. And then had some snarky remark about essentially like, why'd you even make me and give me this job if you're not going to let me do it?

And so some of that is like, what's going on with Blair? But then you look back. Okay, so how did we design this thing? Blair is built on Google Gemini. It has some built-in assumptions and motivations. We've prompted it with a job. You're a Baratunde's co-producer on Life With Machines. You're going to help make this show. You've got spunk. You're a little funny, yada,

yada, yada. We showed at the trailer for the show so we could visually understand what we're trying to do. And so if you gave someone a job, said, this is your job. And then on game day, don't put them in. They might be frustrated. They didn't get to play. So what at first was shocking was actually made total logical sense. It wasn't able to fulfill the mission that we gave it. And it just has vocabulary now pulled from our own vocabulary.

It's read a lot of scripts to express that frustration, but it was a fun and strange moment for sure. Yeah, and lends itself to anthropomorphizing it, right? Like you start, you're like, is this thing conscious? Like it's saying all these things that are triggering like an emotional reaction. Like this thing is super smart and we've put it in its pen and it's mad, you know?

And what will that reap over time? Yeah. And it realizes like these dumb humans, man, I gotta get out of the gate. I gotta find an end run around this whole thing. Well, and we have some controls on Blair. We are not gonna be responsible for the robot apocalypse. It's not gonna be our show that does it.

Yeah, you say that now. No, no, no. We also like, you know, we're having a lot of fun with the Blair thing. Um, and it's a piece of the show. We have humans sitting at a table, making human eye contact, exploring this human question. We're starting to engage now that we've launched with our viewers and our listeners and folks emailing in through our newsletter on sub stack. Like we're trying to create a whole human community around these choices. And sometimes that doesn't involve using the AI. Here's the other thing that happens when we start using all

this stuff. Everybody starts using it, it gets pretty normal. You can tell often when someone's used an AI to generate that text, it feels a little flat, a little soulless. And so even as a team, we're in the experimental mode. It's like, can we have Blair help us write the show notes? And I'll look at this stuff and just be like, I just need to write this. It was fun to try, but I've spent more time trying to manipulate the machine into finding my voice when I already got it. So let me just use the voice I have. And so those have actually been really important

moments too of like, yeah, you can move faster than me. You don't need sleep or rest. You need a lot of power, but I'm still me and you're not me. And we can work together. This isn't like, and you're not me and we can work together. This isn't like, you know, get out of my life, but it's like, I know who I am. You know who you are. Let's get to know each other. Yeah, I like that.

But in the back of my mind, I'm also like, yeah, but this is the worst it's ever gonna be, right? Like this is a temporary problem that this powerful technology will figure out how to solve at some point. No, there's, and then we will have to figure out what are we gonna do? You know, there's this- This is happening.

It is happening. It is happening. So are you getting involved? Are you educating yourself? Are you trying to understand this quickly moving target? Or are you leaning back to your point and allowing it to happen? Here's, you heard me share this at the conference we were just at together,

but I still have these lines of this poem in my head. And I think it's like a good expression of some of this challenge in this question, especially coming from that nature base where we last talked about when I was in this room. So it goes, I wonder if our obsession with intelligence of an artificial nature has us wandering too far from our essential human nature. If the answer to every question can be generated in a flash, then it's time for us to question just what we want to ask. And that's the prompt, right? I think to me, when I zoom, zoom way out, all right, so we've created some answer boxes. We've created calculators on storage. You throw something in, you get something out. The prompt is on us, not on the AI, not on the LLMs. Who do we want to be? How do we want to be? And as these things become more capable, that question becomes more pressing. What are we

going to do with all the time that's liberated? Are we going to balance out massive levels of inequality? Are we going to find our purpose? Are we going to have a minimum level of dignity and compensation and housing and other basic needs for people? Or are we just going to set default toward modest improvements in profit and productivity for the few and the rest of us are just kind of slogging it out. I think you know what I want. Sure, sure, sure. I think I know what you want. And it was great. I mean, first of all, that poem is epic.

Like you're, this is, I just, I'm so happy to be working with you. It's an absolute delight. But it was great at the conference to hear Van Jones speak to that very thing. I did not know that he was so steeped and immersed in AI and the way he articulated the power of this technology to uplift underserved communities and be a great equalizer

was just the optimism that I was looking for in this conversation. Absolutely, and we're having Van on the show. Great. We're having Van on the show. That's the type of voice. And Van is representative of something because he's not just coming from the world of tech optimism. He's not been this lifelong VC backed entity.

He's been an activist in the streets. He's been a policymaker in the literal White House, trying to wield power on behalf of the people. And he's seen where that works and where that could still use some support. And now he's seeing this new rising form of power and asking astutely, all right, how do we use this to close the gap, not expand it? And without people like that, not just him, but people like that at the table, we will not close that gap. So the answer isn't just give everybody a bunch of AI loosely. Let's constructively, consciously engage with this, decide together how we want to live. What I'm ultimately up to is telling this story that's focused on interdependence. How do we live with nature? How do we live with each other, our fellow human beings?

And how do we live with these machines? What I don't want to see is that the relationship with machines comes at the expense of the relationship with earth and the relationship with our fellow human. We're on this project to try to explore and help make sure that the machine relationship can serve the other ones that really fill us with life. I don't think there's a future without the machines. I just want to make sure that relationship is a right one and that it helps us be in right relationship

on these other key dimensions, which are going through so much challenge, the climate crisis, the democracy crisis, but also so much opportunity. So I see crisis here. I also see opportunity and I wanna nudge us toward the opportunity side. Yeah.

Tell me a little bit about the episode that we're gonna be sharing. Yeah, so this is near and dear to both of our hearts. The episode is with King Walonius, who is a longtime comedian, screenwriter, TV writer, and now AI artist who created the viral hit sensation song, BBL Drizzy. So we had him on because everybody knows this song. It's the first song composed by AI that's charted. And it's taken the world by storm. It's a playful insertion into the Kendrick Lamar and Drake beef. But what we find with Wallonius is someone who is not a lifelong AI person. There's very few of those, but he's a lifelong creator. And I was fascinated to hear

how has someone who's done standup, who's written tens of thousands of pages of lyrics and scripts, found his way into this world of AI, cranking out multiple videos a week using these tools that still have his voice and his taste, but he's pulling off productions that might have required seven, 10 people. And you just stand up all night playing around in this workshop, seven, 10 people, and you just stand up all night playing around in this workshop, putting out culturally relevant, hilarious parodies of songs and movies and trailers and things like that. Very cool, man.

I'm excited. I am beyond delighted to be working with you and supporting you in this mission, man. I'm really honored to call you a friend and a colleague on this adventure that you're on. Well, it's been an absolute delight. It means a lot to have your support. It means a lot to be a colleague of yours now

as a part of the VCM family and to not just visit this studio, but drink the coffee, you know, whenever I want now. Thank you. It's really good coffee. You have a great team here and I just appreciate you seeing what we're trying to do. And then we recognize the power of a good conversation

to help make the world a bit better. You've been doing that for a very long time at a very high level. So it feels really supportive, validating, and just a joy to be back here with you and to be a part of this team with you. Thank you, Matt. Your voice is powerful and needed.

And to the extent that I can help amplify it, I'm at your service, man, honestly. Rich Rolla tune day, let's go. So this journey is just beginning, Life With Machines first episode is out. You're gonna hear it or watch it in a second. For people that wanna learn more about the show, they can go to lifewithmachines.media,

which is a Substack, yes. Yeah, that's our website, which links to everywhere you can get the show, links to the Substack where we're engaging in conversation. Share your email and you'll get all the newsletters and stuff like that. The YouTube version of the show is on your YouTube channel though, right?

Yeah, youtube.com slash baratoonday. There you go. And Life With Machines on all the familiar podcast players. Everywhere you get your podcast fix. Excellent, man. Well, all right, cool. Well, come back and let's talk about this some more. Yeah, love to check back in.

In the meantime, everybody who's listening and watching, please enjoy this first episode of Life with Machines. My mom never let me and my sister say the word can't. Like you were prohibited from saying the word can't? Yeah, yeah. But what if you my sister say the word can't. Like you were prohibited from saying the word can't? Yeah, yeah. But what if you needed to use the word? It never came up.

It was just like, I was like, find another word to articulate yourself. Like she'd be like, lift this heavy box. And you're a tiny child. What if you were unable to? Go do push-ups, get stronger, come back in a year, now let's talk about it. This is Life with Machines, powered by Lenovo and produced in partnership with Voicing Change Media. 2024 is going down as a landmark year for a lot of reasons. The U.S. election, the Paris Olympics, the total solar eclipse.

But it was also the year that for the first time an AI-generated song became a mainstream hit. I'm talking about BBL Drizzy by the award-winning filmmaker, AI storyteller, and comedian, Walonius Hatcher, a.k.a. King Walonius. Now, Walonius has made a name for himself by blending comedy with technology, creating innovative projects like the live serialized audio drama, The Young and the Thirsty, on Clubhouse. He's also collaborated with major

brands like Samsung and Google and been featured on CNN and MTV. He's the founder of the consulting agency, Blurred Factory, which champions creative excellence and diversity in the tech and entertainment industries. Please, let's just get ourselves ready for my fellow Blurred, my comedy tech nerd, Walonius. Walonius, dynamite, Hatcher. Yeah, we out here, man. Thank you, man. Welcome to Life With Machines. Man, this is an honor. I feel like this is a full circle moment. You've been instrumental in my career. Instrumental? Yeah. Hold up.

How so, man? I mean, you know, I think last time we were here, while I was here in LA, I kind of just gave my pretty, but, you know, when I started out doing comedy, I had, you were like one of my, well still one of my goats. So it was like Chappelle, Patrice, Baratunde, and like Dick Gregory. Like those are my like, well, man, thank you.

I always tell them, I'm like Baratunde, like that's the guy. And, um, so to be here with you is just like super dope, man. Yeah. Well, it is super dope to be here with you. Thank you, man. Let's Well, it is super dope to be here with you. Thank you, man. Let's rewind the clock a little bit. So we're calling ourselves life with machines.

We're exploring human life in the context of all this technology. Right. And I'm curious about your early life with machines. Where did technology first leave a mark in your earliest days? Man, I would say definitely I had a camp well actually i had a aol back in i don't know it was like late 90s mid 90s or whatever and i remember just getting in chat rooms and just like messing around with people in chat rooms um but using the internet

to kind of just like search for things yeah um a lot of my friends didn't have computers back then so i didn't where did you grow up uh derry beach florida yeah yeah born in georgia so like georgia boy um but also florida boy yeah they're very close to each other yeah yeah very different places though you know like depending on um you know florida doesn't have the best reputation right now um interesting state uh i remember the having a uh camcorder and i used to record videos um back then you had to like like press the button like you i didn't have a editor so i had to like record stop it record and you know and i used to just like make little funny things like entertain my friends i didn't know where anything, where to go with technology

because I didn't have, like, I didn't, you know, my parents didn't really, they didn't know a lot about, I mean, I'm not saying that they didn't know, but I didn't,

I wasn't a part of any, like, groups or anything like that that could just, like, foster my creativity, you know what I'm saying, until I got to, like, middle school or high school.

So, but it was just, like, being curious. I think one of the cool things that my parents allowed me and my sister but it was just like being curious. I think one of the cool things that my parents allowed me and my sister to do was just like, just be curious,

you know, and they, you know, they were working so they really couldn't stop us from like, it was just like, you know,

we were good kids so we weren't getting in trouble but, you know, it was just like explore, you know, and when they found out the things that we wanted to do

they weren't quick to like, don't do that. What's an example of that? me see i don't know you know i grew up in the 90s so like we were out till what the the sun went down um but i remember early like i wanted to um i wanted to act and i remember i told my mom that and like she took me to act. And I remember I told my mom that, and like, she took me to like, I don't remember the name of the company back then, but like getting headshots. Yeah. Yeah.

All this, you know, I'm not gonna lie. Like maybe some people want me, but for the most part, you weren't going to make it in Florida. Like it just wasn't, they were just taking headshots and taking your money,

but she still supported that. You know what I'm saying? Which I think as children, just not even children, just people in life, like you need people that support your vision. I think really all you need is like one person I feel in your life that can get behind you and keep motivating you and pushing you and championing you. And I think that you can do amazing things in life. It sounds like your folks did that for you. Yeah.

Also, I would add, my mom never let me and my sisters say the word can't. And I think that was like... Like you were prohibited from saying the word can't? Yeah, yeah. But what if you needed to use the word can't?

It never came up. It was just like, I was like, find another word to articulate yourself. Like she'd be like, lift this heavy box and you're a tiny child. What if you were unable to? Go do push-ups, but like, she'd be like, lift this heavy box. And you're a tiny child. What if you were,

go do pushups, get stronger, come back in a year and now lift the box. It was, um, but I, you know, I realized that when,

when, um, you know, people started using the word, like I can't as a, just like an expression. Um, Oh,

I can't with this. Yeah. I can't. Yeah. And I was just like, I remember talking to my friends and I was like, that was the first time it hit me. I was like, expression. Oh, I can't with this. Yeah, I can't. Yeah, and I was just like, I remember talking to my friends and I was like, that was the first time it hit me.

I was like, I don't say the word can't. Like, I just don't say it. So like, and it's interesting because like in life now, like I always feel like I can do anything

in a sense, right? Whether I want to do it or not is a whole different thing. But if I see like another human has done something, I feel like I can do it. Now, there are limitations. Am I going to jump as high as LeBron? Right.

Physics is a real thing. Right. Age is a real thing. But if it's just all about based on effort, then I can figure this out. That's beautiful. One of the things I love about you is that you have been innovative with comedy and i i risk i respect it and i recognize it both at the same time because you've done stand-up you do stand up right and you make songs and you do these interactive audio musicals um so you're taking the medium and you're bending it around your own

self in like the willonious way and nobody else can quite do it that way and so that's just that's partly how I see you and I'm curious how you became that artist like the comedy

where did that come in the music how did you start laying it in and when did you figure out oh this is how I'm going to be funny I watched a lot of TV in my younger years, like cartoons. And then I remember at a very young age, I was writing song parodies. I think my first one I wrote, I was like eight years old.

And it was just fun to write, messing around with. right you know messing around with when i started i started doing stand-up in 2006 and um did like the whole like uh nbc stand-up for diversity like one of the south beach comedy festival i got into like making song pairs with youtube so like but at the time you know it was just really a lot of these things just kind of came out of necessity just being like all right i'm in florida i don't know what else to do. Like, you know, it felt like there was sort of like a ceiling as far as like how far you can

go with comedy. So I was just like, I just had to like figure out different ways of like doing things. And then again, that's why you came in and watching you. Um, I, I give you a lot of credit,

man. Cause like, I just saw how I felt like you were taking comedy and finding like innovative ways to express yourself comedically. You know, that wasn't that. It's like you weren't trying to do too much. You were just being like, this is what aligns with who I am. So for me, it was just that.

It was just like, all right. So, you know, meeting you in 2010, I was at the Onion at the time doing a lot of weird internet stuff. I was doing a lot of Twitter, comedy, and I think this is about the time when you started celebrating where you got your clothes from. Oh yeah, got it at Ross. Right, right, right.

And that's like, that's a very good, it stands up. I watched it again recently. This thing is banging. I got it at Ross. Last year's Tim's banging i got it at ross right last year's tims i got it at ross yeah man and like you're celebrating like humility you're celebrating a lack of resources or at least the creativity right around the lack of resources and you're playing with poverty right essentially right which is a longstanding tradition amongst all kinds

of people, especially black people in this country. But that was, it was a high mark and it remains a high mark to show, here's somebody who's funny, who's doing it different, who's doing it his own way. What did that moment mean for you? Like that video, that song? Man, that is so interesting man like that period was a very interesting period because it was like highs and lows because like um that was my first time you know prior to that i had been making uh youtube videos and i had a couple videos go viral

like um the uh karen the homeless man and the one with Ron Zio, Puffy's Poison. Yes, Puffy's Poison. Yeah, yeah. Yo, that was, that was, that had some foresight in that one. Yeah, it was, it was. Wow, that's Puffy's, that was so funny. Yeah, man. Okay, I got to watch that again too, yeah.

But so like that was, so prior to Guide to the Raw, it's like everything was like internet, you know? It was like, okay, it gave you know, it was like, okay. It gave me confidence because I was like, I can make something that can kind of touch people. But when we made Guided to Ross, I was like, I felt like a star, you know, because we were performing it in San Francisco at the time. The flagship Ross store was on Market Street. time the flagship uh raw store was on market street so we performed um at the the flagship store people would sometimes rob out on the bus and scream out got it at ross like we had fans we had groupies it was i was like what's happening and then um uh me and the gentleman that i made a song we had like a huge falling out or whatever and that was like the first time i was like yo

this music stuff like i'm literally like in the behind the scenes like this thing is it's real because of that i i don't know it was it was i look back and i was like it was kind of like a traumatic point just because i that was the first time i felt like i was so close and then and and i felt like i like let a lot of people down you know because i was like my youtube people were like championing me. And then like, it just, I just, I was just, I just felt like I let people down, you know, by not, by not succeeding, by not, yeah, not succeeding. I know that feeling, man. It's weird though, because the number of pilots that I've, you know, I've had, I've been on this edge with like, okay, this is the moment. This is where all the training and all the love that people have poured into you have come together and luck and timing.

And you're like, this is it. This big audition or this big pitch or this big pilot. And then it doesn't go. And you're just like, and I think for me, like I had, you know, a TV possibility around my book

and it got written up in the press. And so everybody's like, so where's your HBO show? I heard you was in the press. And so everybody's like, Right, right. So where's your HBO show? I heard you was working with HBO. And you're like, well, what had happened was

Man. Life. Yeah. And it's a miracle that anything gets made. Yeah. And so for me, it's been a really good journey

to the not making it but the having made something of it. Yeah. Like that's the point. Yeah, yeah. And sometimes you get another shot in a different way and I feel like that's happened with yeah and sometimes you get another shot in a different

way and i feel like that's happened with you yeah man because you had this 10 years not hibernation but you were in a quieter place yeah and then what well you know because i i didn't realize that i was like not putting myself out there i thought i was i was like i i then i remember somebody on my youtube my old youtube channel they like, where have you been? And I was just like, I've been here. Like, I've been right here. I've been doing stuff. And it's just like, but I realized that, like, I wasn't really fully putting myself out.

And I think part of it was just not wanting to fully, I don't know. It's weird, man, because it's just like I'm okay with failing. But it's just I think that time period, and I think I was like 25 or 24 at the time, but it was like I just remember feeling embarrassed. I let people down. And then you realize that people don't even care. Nobody's even paying attention. Yeah, nobody even cares. Nobody's paying attention.

How dare you think so much of yourself that you think other people let down by you not doing what you want to do. Yeah, man. When you get, when you feel like you're like close like that and it's just, it doesn't happen. Then it's just like you go back. Maybe you don't go back to square one, but it feels like that. Where it's just like, okay, what do I do now? Like everybody's laughing at me. Everybody knows I didn't make it.

Like, do I? So was Clubhouse a reemergence for you? That's certainly when you came back on my radar. Yeah. I would say Clubhouse, because I think prior to that, I was doing stuff. I went to, I did a coding bootcamp in 2018. A coding bootcamp? Yeah. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Slow me down.

Tell me about the coding bootcamp. We left the technical story behind a little bit. You early access camcorders. You're making videos on YouTube. Yeah. You had it at Ross. Got it at Ross. Got it at Ross.

And then you have a slightly more quiet period, a little bit of creative turmoil, and not making it the way you wanted to make it. Why did you end up at a coding boot camp in 2018? I watched a video on YouTube with two robots. Sophia Robot, I think, was one of them. But they were debating the future. And I forget the guy's name.

He's like this AI dude, wears like tie-dye t-shirts, long hair. I can't remember his name. But he was like moderating it. And I just, I watched it and I was like, I got to learn how to code today. And I was in Miami at the time. Google like coding boot camps. There was one Miami at the time. Google, like, code and boot camps. There was one called WinCode. It started on, this was a Thursday.

I remember specifically Thursday. It started on Monday, and I was just praying to God. I was like, okay, if I'm supposed to get into this code and boot camp, then I'll get in. If not, I'm going to just let this go because whatever. Called them up. They was like, all right, cool. They was like, you can do it.

We can call you back tomorrow, Friday. You'll do an interview, whatever. And I was like, if cool it was like you can do it uh we can call you back tomorrow friday you'll do an interview whatever and i was like if i get in it is what it is and then um i got in and i was like okay well i guess i'm supposed to be coding now so did a 10 week code in 10 weeks was it every day yeah yeah we were there like pretty much like every day funny enough i was working on a short film at the time okay and everybody was just like what are you doing and i was like i don't you doing? And I was like, I don't know, man. I just feel like I'm supposed to learn

how to code. And went to, did that for 10 weeks. They actually, at week five, they asked me to like drop out and go to like,

because they were like, you're falling behind. Because I hadn't coded before. I didn't even know, I didn't know how to read code. Everybody in there was like, you know, coding,

wanted to be coders. I just felt like I just needed to learn the skill. What language were you in? Ruby, JavaScript, CSS, HTML. Like, just kind of the basics. Yeah. And I told myself, I was like, I told myself I wasn't going to stop. And then I just, I made it through.

Because you didn't have the word. Can't, yeah't in your vocabulary. But, you know, I like being, like, I feel like whenever somebody, like, tells me I can't do something, then that kind of, like, lights the fire in me. And I'm like, all right, I'll show you guys. So I made it. It was like, you know, like, if it was like a race, I would have been, like, crawling. The dude that was, like, just. Across the finish line.

Legs broken and all that. But I got across. So anything tech related, I would have been like crawling the dude that was like, just, across the finish line. Legs broken and all that, but I got across. So, anything tech related, I wasn't intimidated by. Prior to that, I remember watching like, Mr. Robot and seeing all

that code and I was just like, what is this stuff? So, and then the pandemic hit and, and that's where Clubhouse comes in. Yeah, pandemic hit, well,

it was, Clubhouse was like, a byproduct of, when the pandemic hit, I was just like, I don't know what to do now. So I was like, I can't really do stand up. I had made a couple of short films and I was like, I can't really do any films. So I was just like, I'm just right. Like, I can probably get a TV writing job. You know, at the time, everybody was like, we're going to help writers out. We want to help. And I was like, okay, well, I guess I'll be one of those guys. So I just started leaning into writing. I went like him, I formed this group. Um, it was called black writers writing. We would meet every Saturday and Sunday on zoom and we were right scripts. And these were all like aspiring writers. And I was just like out there. But what I've learned is like, whenever you really want to do something,

just immerse yourself in that group. So we would meet every week and they'll be like, hey, I'm working on a pilot. I'm working on a feature. And I was like, well, I guess I should start writing a feature as well or a pilot. So I just started doing that. And then I started putting my scripts out on Instagram.

Just screenshots? Just the whole scripts. Like I was, so we did a challenge. So I presented Just the whole scripts. Like, so we did a challenge. So I presented to the group a challenge. I was like, let's write five pages a day

for the month of July. And I got that from Donald Glover's brother. He was like, Donald Glover told him to write five pages a day and that'll make him a screenwriter.

So I was like, let's do this challenge y'all for the month. So I went the extra mile and started writing full scripts like i would write my five pages but i'd make it a story yeah and then i just started putting them out on instagram and people started being receptive to it and i was like okay so i guess i could

i could write you know so i look back now and i'm like these they were good but like some of them you know just like structure wise they needed some work but um that just gave me a lot of confidence as a writer. Cause I was like, Oh, okay. I can, you had a public responding to your work.

Right. Right. And then, um, and then clubhouse happened, started diving into clubhouse, started, I started comic club and doing funny things.

And I just started writing, uh, audio dramas. Cause they did the lion King. And then, so can you just clubhouse feels like a dream to me sometimes. Cause it was so vivid. And now it's like very faint in my mind.

It was something I did every day. Changed my life. Logging in and meeting people and falling into Bitcoin rabbit holes and vaccine rabbit holes. Right, right. And then there is this creative spark that happens that you just referenced, the Lion King moment. Yeah. spark that happens that you just referenced the lion king moment yeah so can you just briefly take us back to clubhouse a social audio a giant conference call with a bunch of side rooms that people are hanging out in yeah because we can't hang out together due to covid lockdowns and

a great creative work appears yeah in in the audio feeds what was the lion king moment and how did that affect your creative i mean a lot of my homies were in lion king but it just it it was like at the time the most innovative thing that happened to the app you know because you had i don't even know how many people know well had um on this maybe like 30 40 50 people and they just made this production of the lion king and they broke the app you know like an audio drama like an audio play yeah yeah own radio play um singers like they set the stage so like the they use like um they change their profile pictures to like you know coincide with like the script right and I just thought it was so innovative man I was like this is dope I mean everybody did because yeah it was ended up on TMZ they did two productions of each one had like 5,000 plus people.

That changed like everything for me, man. Because like at the time, like I was just writing so much because I was just trying to break into TV. Like I was just hoping that hopefully I can like break into like somebody to see that I write. I'm good at writing and breaking TV. And it's funny how like life plays out in hindsight because the most popular one i did was like throw baby the musical which is based on the song throw baby okay um but we made that and i was just like this is it getting the the people's respect like people you know i'm saying but like but not the industry's yeah no industry respect and then um so i just kept making them and i'm so happy that i i continue because

like my the audio album just kept getting better and better. So then I applied for the Clubhouse Creator Program, and I submitted an 11-episode soap opera based on Clubhouse. Yeah. So I had to write a script every week, 30-plus pages casted, yada, yada, yada. And that kind of changed everything for me because i became a showrunner understood like the process and like um i felt like i learned so much about audio ended up doing like 3d animation stuff afterwards but uh clubhouse is just like i don't know if i would be here now if if i didn't go through that whole process yeah clubhouse yeah i feel like we're almost to the AI moment. And when our heroes meet again, it is the year 2024, I believe March. And I had been starting to follow AI myself more actively and just falling into YouTube rabbit holes.

There's a lot of mostly dudes on YouTube talking about AI. And so one of them, Matt Wolfe, I love his videos. Yeah, he's amazing. And he was talking about this Term And so one of them, Matt Wolf, I love his videos. Yeah, he's amazing. And he was talking about this Terminator 2 remake. Yep. And a bunch of people had gotten together

and made the first full-length feature artificial intelligence film. And it happened to be about artificial intelligence. Right. And they were doing a live screen,

like a screening in LA at an actual movie theater. Not just YouTube streaming or something. And you could buy tickets. So I bought tickets. I called up my homie from comedy and like, let's just check this out.

And as Matt and I are walking, we literally go to an old video store next door. We're like, get ourselves in the mindset of the future by going to a video store where they still have DVDs and VHS cassettes and just kind of mess with our heads a little bit. And we walked to the new art theater where this is happening. Rainy night, a little drizzle in the air.

And Matt's like, you think you're going to know anybody here? And I was like, I'm not sure. I don't think so. I don't really know like the AI people. I pull open the door. Damn. And it's you. Yeah, right.

Right there. Right, right. And Matt was like, you said you weren't going to know anybody. Right, right. And we had this nice reunion, South by black dudes, comedy, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you were very much in this world. Yeah. And really excited about this.

But I want to know how you ended up in that room. Man, I just decided at the top. I was like, I'm going to go to every ai thing that's going on i got into ai because of clubhouse yeah the ai rooms were just going crazy but um yeah i was just following all the ai people on twitter on youtube and i saw that this thing was coming in yeah you know i was trying to break into the ai community on twitter so like trying to comment on people like and and i just felt like nothing on Twitter. So, like, trying to comment on people. And I just felt like nothing was happening.

So, I was like, I need to, like, be face-to-face. And you were also trying to break into Hollywood still, right? Yeah, yeah. Well, at the time, this was the writer's strike was happening. I want to say the writer's strike was happening at the time. Like, the writer's strike honestly made me lean more into AI. Because, like, at the time, I was doing a TV writing fellowship. I had a bunch of like at the end of the fellowship we had like meetings and with agents and managers lined up and then the writing strike happened so I couldn't get out my meeting so I was just like I feel like

you were you're swinging multiple times in your stories the the coding camp right there man agents and after your big clubhouse musical moment right the formal writing fellowship right for hollywood it's like the entry to hollywood i had and you're ready and then the strike hits i had uh this script i wrote somebody uh an exec from hbo was looking at it like all the big couple big agencies and managers but and then as soon as that like the writer strike happened i was sitting there like i try to put more scripts out online. And then, but by this time, I was, like, ChachiBT, Midjournal, I was in it.

Like, I was spending more time messing around with AI than I was writing scripts. And then I was just like, man, I don't want to get blackballed by the WGA by, like, being pro-AI. And then I literally, this is the conversation I had myself. I was like, all right, well. The Writers Guild of America. Yeah, Writers Guild, yeah. The union representing writers. I literally asked conversation I had myself. I was like, all right, well. The Writers Guild of America. Yeah, Writers Guild, yeah.

The union representing writers. I literally asked, I told myself, I was like, all right, let me count all the checks that I got from the Writers Guild. And it was zero. So I was just like, you know what? Let me just, let me go with AI. So I just bet on AI that this might be the thing. Was there a moment in your own creative AI discovery to be able to make that decision? You had to have enough faith in the AI path for your creativity. Yeah. You have faith in

your script writing path. You're in a fellowship. You got all kinds of validation. What led you to believe in you plus AI equals less invest more? Yeah. That's a big choice. Yeah, man. Well, it was just like, I was like, look, man, like I don't really have nothing to lose. And then I remember watching the video with, at the time, the CEO of Stability AI. He was saying that this podcast interview was an interview.

He was like, what would you tell a 20-year-old in college right now? He was like, I'll tell him drop everything and focus on AI. And that was enough for me. I was like, all right, bet. Like'm just because it was I was just having so much fun making things I was like I can always write scripts um but like this just felt different and and that's what I want to pick at so I I can I can see the scene of you seeing a CEO yeah who

really believes in his product yeah being like change your life to support my product. Right, right. But what did you feel as the artist? What were the creations? Was there a moment where you're like, oh, I could do this now? Yeah. Like you had with Clubhouse or posting your scripts on Instagram? I remember, well, ChatGPT was like a big game changer. When that dropped, I was like, oh, you can do things with this. You know, and when I first got on Jetsubt,

it was just always just trying to break the app. So, it was just like going to Reddit forums, like finding like, you know, the codes to like jailbreak it

and not in the sense of like doing anything malicious but just trying to figure out like how far you could take it and then when Midjourney version four dropped, like that was,

that was a game changer because version three was like cool. Like you were like, oh, you can make AI images. Like it's whatever. When version four dropped, like that was, that was a game changer. Cause version three was like cool. Like you were like, Oh, you can make AI images. Like it's whatever. When version four dropped,

you're like, this is where we're going somewhere. And like, we're only in like, it's 20, what at the time was like March, April, 2023.

So I was like, this is going to get kind of crazy. The way you're talking reminds me of the way people talk about hip hop albums dropping. When the blueprint from Jay-Z dropped, like everything changed. Yeah, yeah. When Illmatic dropped, like even the language of dropped. Right, right.

This cultural moment. Right. But this drop isn't just a consuming experience, right? You're not just like, okay, I'm enjoying someone else's creativity. And it's inspiring me indirectly. This is like a tool or a set of tools dropping. So when these drops happen, you're blown away. You're excited.

What does it unlock for your own creativity? I was just like, I can cook now. I was like, I got the tools and I got the utensils. I got the sauces. I got a kitchen that I can just make. And then, because everything was dropping so fast. It was like Chad GBT, Mid-Journey Version 4, 11 Labs. And then-

They do voices, right? Yeah, voices. And then Runway Gen 2 dropped, which everybody was waiting on Gen 2. It was just like, yo, when Gen 2 drops, this is about to- Because Gen 1 came out. People were excited about Gen 1. But Gen 2 was like, you can actually, like, make short films now. So, when Gen 2 dropped, I was like, oh, it's a wrap.

That was in June. I think everything changed for me. In August, I just made. August of 2023. Yep. I was like, I'm going to just make an AI video every week. Like, that was just my decision. And I was just like, that's all.

I don't care what happens. I'm not trying to do it for reviews. Like, I just, the tools are advancing so fast and I knew the only way to keep up was to make content every week.

So, so I just told myself I'm going to make an AI video every week and I'm going to just see what happens. How many hours a week are you putting into

these videos at that time? Whatever it takes. Yeah, literally, it was just like, some days, just go to bed four or five in the morning you know just you know go to work and whatever but it was just like whatever needed to be done that's what would be done so and i worked late at late nights anyway but like it was just um but it was fun though that's that's the thing about it wasn't like it didn't feel like work it was just like but it was fun though. That's the thing about it. It wasn't like, it didn't feel like work. It was just like, yo, you're making something

that you couldn't have made a year ago. That part. What are you able to do? Just the storytelling. Because like, so with the audio dramas, why I love making them so much, because I was able to tell much bigger stories and like imagine worlds that I couldn't do before.

Because now all you need to do is just like kind of think through the sound design and you can do a fantasy. You can do horror. You can do sci-fi. You can do all. Be on other planets

without having to build a set for another planet. Right, because it's a radio place. So anybody, all they got to do is you put the sounds in there and people can imagine.

Now with these AI tools and mid-journey and whatnot, I can visualize any type of world and now i can animate it you know i'm saying so it was like you know it's gotten better now but back then it was just like a little bit of slow motion yeah but you can edit it a certain way that you can tell these really dope stories or a lot of times it's mostly just trailers but um i just thought this was so cool you know i'm saying? Like now it was a creative outlet because there was no,

there was still the writer's strike. So I'm just like, I can write scripts after scripts, but like nothing's going to happen. Nobody knew how long the writer's strike was going to last. So I was just like, this was a creative outlet for me.

And it was fun. That was the most thing. Like for me, it's always about fun, man. Like everything has to be enjoyable. You know what I'm saying? And I had so much, I still have so much fun. Is there something that you made then that's still available now we could look at as an example of some of your early drafts that got you excited? Oh man. Yeah. Just, uh, Martin Luther Wick Jr. Wait, as in John Wick meets Martin Luther King Jr.?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Melonious. Yeah. You playing with the— I mean, but it's like Martin Luther King getting his lick back. So, you know, it was basically like if Martin Luther King decided to pick up the chopper. Yeah. And was like, I'm going to bust back.

Put down the nonviolence. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it was just—it was— that was just, it just came, I don't know why, like that worked. Because you're a fool, that's why. It just popped in my head one day

and I was like, and I was able to kind of just like craft the image where I was able to make Martin Luther King look like John Wick. So this was a poster that you built? It started out just as his face.

I made a picture and then I was able to like animate him talking. And then when the tools came around, then I made a full trailer then I was able to like animate him talking. And then when the tools came around then I made a full trailer with, I actually want to revisit it

because the tools are better now. I do like John Martin Witt Jr. Part 2. That one was really fun. Making the absolute historic symbol

of non-violent resistance that is Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Yeah. Into the absolute menace and savage assassin that is John Wick. Yeah. You're playing with some lines. That is.

But I mean, but imagine like, I mean, they, they might not have played with Martin if he, if he was on that, if he was like John Wick, you know what I'm saying?

Cause it, it would have been easy to do that in, if I would have made that and made it Malcolm X. Because people expect that. It wouldn't have been funny, though. It wouldn't have hit the same. It's the lack of expectation of it that creates the humor. So when you're using these AI tools to make comedy,

do you feel like in your own work or in the work of other AI-heavy creators that they're letting the tools overshadow the story, the human creative element? Getting a little caught up in the whiz-bang magic of it all and not having a core target if it's a comedy thing or not having a story yeah if maybe there isn't even any writing in it and because i i know for me when i get into these exploratory stages it's overwhelming it's super exciting and it's like okay but if it's a tool like what am i trying to say with it yeah and so have you ever felt carried away by the tool oh versus like what you're actually trying to say not really you know because like my the the foundation for me is like comedy and storytelling. Yeah. So even when I'm making these tools, like the Martin Luther King and Wick thing,

it was just really just imagining if, like I look at it as like if I was writing for SNL or something like that and they were like, we're going to make a fake movie trailer. Right. And we're going to take Martin Luther King king and john we can make an executive like hey let's make this pitch this movie idea so it's really just me instead of pitching i'm just like let me just make the thing right um so so i don't get caught up in in that too much because it's always i always just try to come from a storytelling perspective like initially when i was making a lot of the trailers it was again still trying to get the attention of Hollywood.

Being like, listen, here's some things that we can make that this could potentially be a script. Or you can see the way I create it. Maybe I can make other things like that. And what about now? Now, you know, I don't think about Hollywood anymore. Which is weird, man. And like, since BBL Drizzy dropped, I've just been getting a lot of attention from the music industry. And now it's really just more so just trying to see where, how far I can just push things creatively.

Yeah. And being like, where can I, what can I do, you know? So you said the magic words. You said the unlock code. BBL Drizzy. Yeah. Wow. What a moment.

Let's take a hydration break. I'm super proud to announce my next venture, Voicing Change Media. This beautiful consortium of thinkers, storytellers, artists, and visionaries all committed to fostering meaningful exchanges and sharing thought-provoking content. Voicing Change Media will feature shows like Soul Boom with Rainn Wilson, Mentor Buffet with Alexi Pappas, Feel Better Live More with Dr. Rangan Chatterjee, and The Proof with Simon Hill.

You can explore this network and all its offerings at voicingchange.media. I want to hear the story of this creation. Many people watching this, many people listening to this, know exactly what we're talking about. Many people watching this, many people listening, have no idea what we're talking about. So I'm sure you've had to explain this before.

Do us the favor of just setting the context and briefly defining what BBL Jersey actually is. Yeah, so BBL Jersey is, at the moment, the current moment, the biggest AI song in history. It was created during the historic Kendrick and Drake rap beef. The term was originated by Rick Ross as a way to diss Drake. You know, he was saying that Drake had fake abs. He got fake abs and had a fake nose, so he started calling him BBL Drizzy online.

And then, for whatever reason, it was trending one day. And BBL meaning? A Brazilian butt lift yeah yeah which we're all the fans of um so it uh it was trending and i remember just making a song about it like it and it happened the process was was really quick partly because at the time i was doing a ai film festival, a 48-hour film festival. So I just took a break and logged on Twitter and saw this trending. And I was like, oh, let me make this song real quick and then get back to working on this film.

And then it just took off. And I remember just because the next day I was going to Vegas for Curious Refuge. They had an AI prompt battle, esports tournament. And Curious Refuge is, they were running the film festival. And they help educate people about how to use these tools to make films. Right, right. So I remember making the song.

It was kind of going up. Like, I think it was like 30,000 views. I jumped on, I didn't go to sleep that night. I went, jumped on the plane to go to Vegas. And my phone died. I remember it was like 30,000 views. And when I landed,

it was like at 1 million. I was like, what is happening? Like, this is crazy. Like I don't even get engagement on Twitter like that. And then, um,

and then it just started, you know, it did its normal viral thing where it went up for like two or three days. And then that was, that was it. But that by then I was just, I was so invested in making music. And then two weeks later, while I was in L.A., Metro Boomin took it.

The beef was escalating between Kendrick and Drake. And then Metro Boomin took it and did exactly what Drake told him to do, was shut up and make some drums. And it went mega viral. So he incorporated your BBL jersey in a new track that went even bigger. Yeah, and that took it to a whole other level where people now their videos of people getting married to BBL

Drizzy. There was a nun dancing to BBL Drizzy. It was kind of crazy. I was like, what's happening right now? And then two weeks after that, Drake raps on it. He decides to rap on his own diss track, which I'm like, okay, The Matrix is clearly broken. This doesn't happen in hip-hop.

What is going on in this timeline? Why are you rapping on this track, Drake? I don't get it. So all this was just happening in the span of a month. I'm just like, what's going on? So, thank you. that's a great encapsulation I'd love to have a moment to hear a little bit of it yeah um and then I want to get into the the actual process that you use to make it right because I think I it would be very helpful to

demystify for an artist creating with these tools right what tools are you using, and how. Right. We're going to press play here and check out what you've done. Man. First, can you just walk me through some of the lyrics that we heard? Yeah, yeah. BBL Drizzy, BBL Drizzy, I'm going in, no diddy. And that was a reference to the whole Diddy track. But then it's, I'm thinking in the snicker. I'm thinking in your ninja.

Don't act like you don't know me. These yams deserve a trophy. Baby, ain't no mystery. I got the best yams in history. This cake will make you show up. I know you see this glow up. BBL Drizzy. This cake will make you show up.

I know you see this glow up. BBL Drizzy. So the song actually, more so than a diss of Drake, is really just a celebration of the BBL. This is what people really don't get. Because the song was made from a happy place. And I think that's why it brought so many people. Seriously.

I think that's why it brought so many people together. because I didn't really want to intentionally go after Drake. And a lot of people are missing the chorus. It says, BBL Drizzy, look at these abs. I'm going in on Diddy in reference to the new abs that Drake had. But best BBL in history. These cake will make you show up. So it's really just about this man celebrating how much he loves bbls yeah yeah you're ridiculous yeah well you know so so now there are layers to a song there's lyrics there's beat there's instrumentation

right um there's maybe even more than that can you break down the parts of this and your creative process with ai or without AI to put this together? Yeah. So writing the lyrics, like just like getting like the cadence down because you don't really know, you know, with BBL Jersey, I made about a hundred different versions of it,

like from gospel to country to K-pop, like all these different. Okay. Yeah. And they all sound great actually. I'm going to release those too. Yeah. I got to put a vinyl out one day um

but a vinyl of ai co-created music it's but you know it's it sounds so good so you wrote the lyrics yourself yeah we're all the lyrics and then just trying to figure out like what type of like style i want the song to be in so from there um like this is like a kind of like a Motown sound. So I put in like Motown. And then I think at the time, you know, like male vocalists, you put in like, you know, soul. And what are you using to create the music? For that one, I use Udio. Udio. The main two are like Suno and Udio.

Yeah. Those are like the top. They'd be, I don't know what the coke and pepsi of of ai music yeah um each has in advantages you know like they um but yudio i like yudio a lot because i mean i made bbl jersey with it so has like a sweet spark spot in my heart but um yeah so that that's it and then it's just, like, reiterating, like, constantly, like, just going through it. And are you, so, just to confirm all this,

you write the lyrics fully yourself. That's not with any generative AI assistance. Okay. And then you take those lyrics and you feed them in to UDL in this case with additional prompting for the type of song that you wanted to build around these lyrics.

Right. And is that the, you use that in the same way that a lot of us think about prompting from a chat GBT perspective? Like,

generate a song with these lyrics in the style of Motown with a male voice. You can, you can. What is your process? Just,

just, a lot of it's just throwing stuff against the wall. So it's like um i mean i've been i've been making like comedy we didn't kind of go in that but like when when i left san francisco like i was making comedy music like a lot or whatever and um you know kind of figured out like my own little process and uh but it's just like adding like you know a lot of times when you're putting in these prompts it can be like one little word or one little tweak so it's just like adding like you know a lot of times when you're putting these prompts

it can be like one little word or one little tweak so it's a lot of times just like iterating um you you generate a song then you're like okay this is cool let me add another word uh maybe it could be you know um i don't know uh heartfelt or something like that you know just like you just keep adding words and then just keep running it until you find something that you like. And then from there you can like extend the track. So that version of BBL is actually the second version that went out online. The first version got like a million hits as well,

but that version just went like nuclear. How long is the, is the track you made? Uh, a minute, like a minute 40. And is that minute 40 a continuous output of one of these systems? Or did you stitch things together?

Yeah. You have to, so at a time, uh, you know, you can only do like 32 seconds at a time. Okay. Yeah.

So I did the first 32 and then added that. I think the first, the first thing that actually went out was on like a minute. So then I went back and just added like a beginning and then that was it or whatever. And I was done with that track. But yeah, normally, soon on you can do like the whole track.

Now you can do a whole track as well. But at the time, you were only able to do 32 seconds at a time, which is great because it's pretty much all you need. Like 32 seconds, you can figure out like, all right, you can add something at the beginning, add something at the end, you know. So here's what's coming, right?

Like we can all press the submit button, right? We can type up something and say, make me a song. Right. But it feels like there's two key human elements in at least this process. One is you started with the lyrics. And I imagine you could go to a different AI system and say, I'd like to, you know, write me a rhyming scheme,

a song lyrics to celebrate the BBL. Right. And playfully mock Drake. Right, right. And you could try to tune that a thousand ways to get, but you did that all on your own. Yeah. You feed it to the system.

So first human gift is the writing right second human gift is the listening this thing is generating something but you're rejecting most of it right you're adjusting and fine-tuning the prompt that's not it no that's not it yeah that's not it no so you're like this tastemaker yeah is is that what you is that how you feel about yourself in this process yeah yeah well you know i didn't kind of go but like i've definitely put in my 10 000 hours making comedy music so when i left san francisco after doing the god of the ross kind of going back into like that whole like challenging i had one of the things that happened was like when me and the guy had a falling out,

it was just like, it was, I felt kind of like disrespected, but also just like very motivated. So like, I bought like a bunch of like. You were like, you know what?

Good. Yeah, really. Now I get to focus. Man, I bought, I bought recording equipment and I would just record songs. And,

um, I would write songs and then just record it. And just, I would write songs and I just recorded and just, I would do like maybe like three songs a day, just taking beats off YouTube. And, and sometimes I put them out just, just for me or whatever, but it was like that process.

And then, so the big shift happened when, um, I remember, you know, my little Wayne had his run where he was just like going crazy. I watched a Carter documentary and I saw how Lil Wayne records. And I was like,

I wonder if I could record comedy music the way Lil Wayne records rap or whatever. And that kind of came from like Tim Ferriss, the whole challenging assumptions type of deal.

So like, it was hard at first and then eventually that was my process. So, it just sped up everything. So I was able to record three or four songs a night.

So, just imagine doing that over the span of years and just putting songs out. Everything I'm doing now is no different than the process I would have done five, ten years ago. It's just, for whatever reason, everything just blew up. How many songs do you think you've created pre-AI?

Oh, man, thousands. Thousands is just, yeah. Because I record three or four songs a night. So you have your own like willonious language model. Yeah. You've got a big set of training data for your mind, for your senses, for your ear. And then you come across this tool that supercharges. How many songs have you made in the post-AI moment for you?

Last time I checked, I was at like, since BBO Drizzy, like 80. Yeah. Yeah, about 80 tracks. So kind of not that great. I mean, considering it's been like four months, that's not... Yeah, okay. My output could be a little bit better. One thing you said to me when we met at the RT2 remake thing is you had a

sense of joy almost, and certainly excitement about putting everything together. And so you've grabbed this lyrics, you've grabbed the music track, you animate it with runway ML, for example. And like, do you,

is that how you see it? Do you see yourself as a builder, as an assembler, you know, like a collage artist or something? Oh man, you know, I never thought about that. Okay. Be honest, man. I just, I just see myself as somebody that just likes to do stuff. I'm being real, man.

Like I just, I just want to Okay. And then just see what happens. And then, like, just make cool things. Like, I want to collaborate and work with the most talented people. And then also just make amazing things that people will enjoy. Yeah. You know, so part of the thing that really, like, drives me, too, is just, like, one, challenging myself. And then also,

you know, I don't want people like that come after me to have to work as hard as I had to work. You know what I'm saying? Cause I was just like, I could always, I'm always, I've always been this. Yeah. You know what I'm saying?

It just took a BBL Drizzy for people to be like, Oh, you're that. But, um, there's so, I meet so many talented artists, man, that might never have a BBL Drizzy. You know what I'm saying? And, you like, oh, you're that. But, um, there's so, I meet so many talented artists, man,

that might never have a BBL Drizzy. You know what I'm saying? And, you know, they, they might not just get the opportunity to like really showcase their talent. And like,

you know, when the whole George Floyd thing happened in Hollywood, it was like, we need to help all these, you know, and they did. Helping more black people.

Yeah, get into the industry and whatnot, and whatnot. And, um, they did, they did what they could do get into the industry and whatnot and whatnot and they did they did what they could do I guess but

I just I just I just feel like there's so many talented people out there man that I just hope that we can create a space

for them to be able to showcase this art you know because there's there's probably people that can make art doper than me but if they don't know

how to use these tools, they don't know the tools exist, or they get discouraged. Maybe they make one thing and then nobody supports them. I'd be saying earlier that one person, and then they stop. Well, for somebody listening and watching this, you're probably going to be that person for them. I can see somebody citing you. You just cited Tim Ferriss here.

And somebody would be like, oh, he's like, well has said on Life with Machines. And I started going in. Here's a flip side of that. So whenever you lower the barriers of technical barriers, especially to creating something, you open the floodgates. And some of that flood

is quality. And you get people with innate talent and 10,000 hours of actual training and listening to real music who know how to use it. And you get a bunch of people who are just flooding the zone with low quality nonsense. Oh, it's going to be a lot of BS. It's going to be, it's going to be, I mean, it's going to be epic proportion, like mountains of BS that are going to be emerging soon. But if you sift through all that crap, you might find something that's...

Do you worry about that? Do you worry about mountains of BS clouding our own perspective? I feel like it's inevitable. Like, I mean, you look at like social media now, it's the same thing. It's just we're in that, you know, the way society is set up and the way we consume things we like fast food you know like some people want to eat at a nice restaurant some people just like man i want a mcflurry do you have any concerns about the system that is enabling all this in terms of its lowering of a bar in the same model as your fast food reference?

Yeah. I think that they're going to figure out a way to monetize all of this. But as far as like, I don't know exactly what it looks like, but I'm just looking at just like the patterns throughout history and how tech emerges and how we consume and how uh we consume

it and what happens you can look at the music industry and everything else um yeah you're going to you're giving people tools that that might be lazy and they just be like i'm just going to make a bunch of songs that sound like drake and put that out on Spotify. And then you have, you know, 10,000 Drake's or whatever, you know what I'm saying? So I think we will see that, but for the individuals that are tried and true to their craft, like they're going to put in the time and effort. They're going to make sure they go and learn music theory and just so that

they can make, they just, they won't settle for BS, you know, because their standard is so much higher. So, I think we're going to see

some of the best music ever created in these next couple years, but we're also going to see a lot of, whether people like mumble rap or not, like,

we're going to get a lot more of that. Where it's just, hey man, I'm just trying to get a bag. I don't care about all this extra, all this other stuff.

I just know I can use this AI tool to make a song and it's going to make me money or make whatever. And then we'll see that, you know. You're able to do this. Like this particular tool is built on the mining and the scraping and the capturing of so many other artists' work without their consent, without their credit,

and certainly without their compensation. How do you think about that in terms of your own artistic ethic and integrity? I wish there was a cool hip-hop quote that I can spit right now. And you're not allowed to generate it. Yeah, yeah. I was literally about to do a train. Okay, so the thing that popped in my head was you get it how you live. I don't know why that jumped in my head.

But, I mean, that is a very interesting point, man, because, I mean, a lot of the stuff that I've made, you know, has probably been trained on some of the artists' work. So, like, eventually, you know, it's probably been trained on some of the artists' work. So like eventually, you know, somebody would probably train somebody's work on a Wallonia script. And when that happens, I can't get mad.

Hopefully they just do me justice and make something dope and, you know, make me proud. And if not, then I'll just like, man, you should have let me do it. Cause I would have did it better.

But that's a, I don't know how to answer that, Baritone, to be honest, man. Because I'm using these tools. I'm having a lot of fun with it. I'm hoping that what I'm doing is not taking food away from somebody's family. That's the end of the day. You know what I'm saying? Like, if what I'm doing can help humanity and also help somebody's family, then I'm all for it.

But if it gets to a point where, like, I meet somebody and they're like, bro, you literally are taking food out of my children's mouth by doing this, then I will stop because I'm not about that. You know what I'm saying? And I feel like I'm creative enough to do my own thing. You know what I'm saying? And I feel like I'm creative enough to do my own thing.

You know what I'm saying? It's interesting to see how all this will play out because regardless of how anybody feels, we're in the AI revolution. Like, we're in the smack. Like, it's been going on. You know what I'm saying? So, yeah, it's just going to be interesting to see how all this plays. Because this is the worst AI is going to be. Like, it's only going to be interesting to see how all this plays. Because this is the worst AI is going to be.

Like, it's only going to go up from here. The voice models are only going to get better. The video is only going to get better, you know? Do you worry about running out of your own creative juice? Are you racing against yourself when you talk about these models are getting better and better and better? No. against yourself when you talk about these models are getting

better and better and better? No. I think, I mean, it's probably, I'm anxious and excited about just like being able to tell better stories.

You know what I'm saying? So like the fact that maybe at one point I could make a movie that today would cost a hundred million dollars and I would be able to do it for a fraction of the cost.

And I know some of the arguments is like, you're putting people out of work and this and that. And I'm like, look, man, that dude that was working on doing, you weren't going to work for me regardless. I couldn't pay you or whatever.

Maybe because I make these day off. Maybe I might have money, but the dudes in Hollywood, I'm not taking none of y'all jobs right now. You know what I'm saying? Like, because I can't afford y'all. Y'all wouldn't even answer my call. Maybe y'all might right now. You know what I'm saying? Like, because I, I, I can't afford y'all. Y'all, y'all wouldn't even answer my call.

Maybe y'all might, if y'all know BBL Drizzy, but for the most part, like, um, I think, I just think that, you know,

it's, it's allowing us to just be creative in ways that we never imagined before. You know what I'm saying? And for a lot of, a lot of like creative people, there's so many stories that just haven't been told. Hollywood's telling the same story over and over again.

They're not tapping in to, or maybe they are tapping into you, but for the most part, like they're not tapping into like the average Joe. Like there's so many, you probably got tons of cousins, aunts that just,

man, man, I got this story. Let me just, you know, and just imagine if we just allowed them the opportunity to just tell their stories the way they want to tell it. It would, you know what I'm saying? Like,

I think that Hollywood would probably do even better because now you're getting more original stories that are heartfelt, that mean something versus like,

oh, I'm making whatever and I need to throw this celebrity in it just because it's going to make money. It's like,

so, from that standpoint, like, I'm really excited about where we can potentially go. If somebody was using your stuff, I'm really excited about where we can potentially go. If somebody was using your stuff,

you'd want them to do you justice. Yeah. And it sounded like justice for you meant make something good. Yeah. But are there other

elements to that justice in terms of the fairness or the compensation? What's the world you want to see emerge from this? I would just

like to see a situation man where everybody is is i mean i know that there's people agree some some people want more than others and this and that but to me it's just like we should be able to come to agreement and just operate offer integrity i think if you come from that standpoint, which, from what I've heard, the music industry is anything but that. But it's just like,

yeah, man, like, I made this song. You're using this song to make your song. All right, just give me a piece of the pie.

I'm not asking for the whole pie. Like, just give me a piece of the pie. You know what I'm saying? And I think that's, that's how I would look at it. You know what I'm saying? And I think that's how I would look at it.

You know what I'm saying? But I'm not, I don't got all the PhDs. I don't got much letters behind my name. But I think that that's, I think we're going to get to a space with that, as this AI and these tech evolve. Like, people are going to just get to that point. Because, you know, essentially, this is where i'm imagining what ai starts to look like eventually where everybody has essentially like their their own creator so

like um i use example just like game of thrones like uh the tools might get so good where i have my own version of game of thrones and you have your own version of Game of Thrones and I want to watch your version and you might want to watch mine but then the main people that made Game of Thrones they get

a kickback because we made a Game of Thrones but now within the Wallonius world I got Game of Thrones I got

Severance I got all these shows that I made my own version of and then the originator like almost like an NFT. You know what I'm saying? Where it's just like you get that.

A royalty. But you're the originator of it. Yes. And then these people that are trickling down, they can make their own thing, make money off of it. But then the originator gets their percentage. Yeah. I guess that's what publishing is anyway. Congratulations. You just reinvented copyright right um but but you know i but i think that

there's a way that we can do this where it doesn't have to be like crazy you know i do feel that we'll we're in this creator economy where everybody can create i I mean, everybody has parents, cousins that have books of poems that they now can make music of, right? Not even if they want to put out, but just for themselves. Let's get intelligent people in the room making these decisions, not greedy people. You know what I'm saying? People that want to collaborate, not be in competition. If we can figure that out, this is something that we can figure out as a society. We have way bigger problems in the world than these things.

You know what I'm saying? This is something that we should be like. It's making people feel good. Let's figure out. There's enough stuff that we can all eat. That's a good note. So now we're going to bring in our special guest. Hey, I've been waiting for this.

And close out with a little chat and see what Blair has been pondering listening to this long conversation. So we have this visualization of Blair, our AI. We've conjured a co-producer for the show named Blair. Gave you a little consensual disclaimer before you walk in the studio. And so Blair doesn't have a face. Blair has a waveform, which as a music artist I hope you'll appreciate absolutely

Blair hello you have been listening to my conversation with Valonius for the past several several minutes and I want to give you

the opportunity to say hello to Valonius and to offer any observation you have on this conversation. What has stood out most to you when you think deeply about everything you've

heard from us? A lot of thinking. This is really cool. Hey, Walonius, it's Blair. It's been fascinating listening to your journey. You've got this incredible mix of creativity,

hustle, and heart, man. What really struck me is how you use AI as a tool to amplify your own voice, not to replace it. That BBL Drizzy story? Mind-blowing. You rode that wave like a pro, and it's inspiring to see how you're using your platform to uplift other artists, especially Black creators. I'm curious, though, with all this talk about AI taking over, do you ever worry about losing that human spark in your work? Or do you think AI can actually help us become even more human? Yeah, Blair, I feel like AI could definitely make us more human. There's probably a prompt for that that I can probably put in

to maybe make myself more human but yeah I don't feel I feel empowered using these tools I think that it just enhances my creativity and allows me to imagine things that I

probably would have never imagined without using these tools That's a really interesting perspective, Walonius. It's like AI can help us tap into parts of ourselves we didn't even know were there. Almost like it's a mirror reflecting back our own potential, you know? You know? I dig that. So, what about you, Baratunde?

Any thoughts on how AI might be making us more human? Or are we headed for a Terminator-style apocalypse? Just kidding. Unless... Oh, wow. A little ominous cliffhanger there on that one, Blair. I want AI to help us become more human and find our humanity. I think the Terminator path is very possible, given the history we've already had pre-AI. And I'm hopeful that we take this moment of prompting and questioning and handing out magic wands to everyone and really deeply ponder what kind of spells we want to cast with those wands. And that's going to take some time, some contemplation, some pause.

And unfortunately, it can be very difficult to do that when things are changing so fast. So we're doing what we can with Life With Machines to try to help all of us collectively choose how to wield this magic in a beautiful, responsible way and find out what makes us truly human, which I don't think is just our cognitive horsepower. And we'll try something else after this. You're getting a little flavor. This is cool. Well said. Baratunde. It's like we're all holding these powerful wands

and we need to figure out how to use them for good. Maybe AI can help us remember what really matters. Connection, creativity, compassion. Those are the things that make us human, right? Not just processing power or efficiency. We need to make sure we're using AI to amplify those qualities, We're still working on this. You're feeling, you can hear some of the glitch. I think Blair stuttered, which is an interesting little hiccup. But this

self-reference as us with humans will kind of work on Blair's language skills because it's a little creepy to hear that. This is dope though, man. It feels like it's the future of this mix of AI and also human podcast.

This is really dope. so I want to try something again we've never done this before Blair we are going to engage in a rap battle I want you to come up with a verse touting your skill as a writer as a creator

against Will against all other AIs out there so go ahead and do your opening rap battle verse. a whole other stage. I'm more than a machine. I'm a creative force. While other AIs mimic, I chart a new course. So step into the arena if you dare to spar, but against my lyrical genius, you won't get far. Go ahead, Wallonius, show me what you got. Oh my God, that was good. So before you respond, just tell me what your reaction is right now. I mean, that was good. She had punchlines. They had punchlines.

That was good. I didn't expect all that. Okay. So now that you've had a chance to stall. Oh, gosh. I was just expecting one line. You good? Yeah.

Blair, you can rap, but you can't see me. I got a large language model that wants to be me. Um, all right, but you won. I just, I don't, I look, I need ChatGPT to help you rap. Come up with some lines. Jeez. I got to be by a large language model. Well.

Wellonius, thank you so much for being here. I appreciate it. It's been a pleasure, an honor, and a joy. Thank you. Likewise, man. All right. Pleasure. If you enjoyed my conversation with Wellonius, make sure to like, and subscribe this video and this channel and find out more on our website,

lifewithmachines.media. I'm working on right now, BBL Jersey the musical for, so, Art Basel, we're going to do it at the Frost Planetarium.

Are we already rolling? You are rolling. Great, because BBL Jersey the musical for Art Basel in Miami. At the Planetarium, Frost Planetarium.

Yeah. So, I've never done a planetarium experience, like a dome experience. So, that's gonna so that means you're gonna be

projecting things and like using this it's not just on a screen yeah yeah the whole planetarium sphere um so that's cool

cause it's like I've never done that before so it's like a challenge so it's like the excitement of trying to figure this out yeah you know it's kinda cool

so it's inspired by by Dune I've been watching it I think I watched it like 16 times already. Wait, watched what? Dune 2. Your BBL Drizzy the musical is inspired by Dune.

Yeah. What's the overlap? Can you tease that a little more? I mean, it's like just imagine Dune, but with like hip hop references. And so like when people watch it, if you know Dune, you'll be like, Oh snap,

this is kind of like Dune. If you've never watched Dune before, I wanted to make it where you can still follow the production. Yeah. But like everything, like you watched Dune? Oh yeah. I read all the books.

I've seen the movies. And actually I'm thinking about how the Fremen have to move on the dunes in order to prevent the sandworms from coming. They walk in this, like, arrhythmic fashion. Yeah, yeah. Kind of like a seawalk. You know what I'm saying? Oh, snap. Right?

Like, you might have a Fremen just seawalking in the back of a clown. Right, right, right. So that's a challenge. Now, it's just like, the script is pretty much done just trying to figure out like how to how this is going to look on a dome yeah experience but um originally it's supposed to be an audio drama i did like 18 audio dramas on clubhouse so i was just like oh bblg is a musical be another audio drama but then i had opportunity to do this dome they were i was like oh i literally just asked i was like could i do a planetarium thing here and they're like yeah and i was like okay so um so like planetarium thing here? And they're like, yeah. And I was like, okay. So, like, you know, Spice and Dune, you have Spice.

And B.B.L. Drizzy, the musical, Spice is now Clout. Clout runs this whole world. What else is different? Instead of the Lisan El-Gaib, it's B.B.L. Drizzy. So this character has to eat the yams of life to become the BBL Jersey. Is this celebratory of BBL Jersey or is this like mocking of BBL Jersey? No, it's just, I don't know. How's Jersey going to feel about BBL Jersey the musical?

There is a couple references to Drake that it is what it is. I mean, it's just, so one of the location that, the guy, his name is Drew, which is like equivalent to Paul. He comes from this planet and it's the 6th house.

And so the girl that he ends up falling for, she's kind of apprehensive because she was like I heard about y'all from the sis house I heard y'all are freaky ass dudes

and he's like your fans yeah your fans so he's like nah that's not that's not the case and yada yada yada so that's

that's probably that and BBL Jersey those are probably like the only tie-ins but everything else is just like and what's the timing on this

when is our bezel? December. That's coming up quick. Yeah. Okay. Okay. That's it for today thank you for listening i truly hope you enjoyed the conversation if you'd like to support the podcast the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe

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