The Rich Roll Podcast - Introducing Mentor Buffet: Zach Braff—Be Yourself Until Somebody Gives You a Chance

Episode Date: October 10, 2024

Today I’m sharing an episode of Mentor Buffet—a new podcast hosted by Alexi Pappas, the Olympian-author-filmmaker. Subscribe on Spotify and Apple Podcasts Watch on YouTube In each episode, Alexi goes deep with brilliant changemakers to learn about the mentors who made the biggest difference in their lives and set them on their path. In this episode, Zach Braff talks with Alexi about his relationship with mentor Bill Lawrence, the creator of Scrubs and Ted Lasso. Bill was the first person to give Zach his big Hollywood break, casting him as the lead in Scrubs as the iconic J.D. Dorian. They also discuss the importance of being yourself, what Zach learned from making his debut feature film Garden State, the value of gratitude, and how to avoid shin splints. Subscribe to Mentor Buffet for new episodes every Thursday, available everywhere you listen to podcasts. Find out more about Voicing Change Media at voicingchange.media and follow us @voicingchange

Greetings, devotees of the Rich Roll Podcast universe. It's me, Rainn Wilson. And if you ponder what it means to be a human being with a body and a soul, give my new podcast, Soul Boom, a listen. I sit down with big thinkers, artists, philosophers, entertainers, and more, exploring the existential questions we all grapple with.

It's inspiring, soul-nourishing, and we have a lot of laughs along the way. So subscribe to Soul Boom on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. I really feel that I have no other choice but to be myself. It is so weird. I don't know where it's leading, but I feel in touch with myself. And so when I'm on the stage, it's like I just felt like I wanted to dance like me.

And it's not cool. Like I'm not like cool. But to be yourself is cool. Like that's cool. Hey everybody, welcome to the podcast. I am here today with my good friend, Alexi Pappas, podcast favorite. We're gonna do something a little bit different today.

We're going to introduce you to her brand new show, Mentor Buffet, part of the growing family here at Voicing Change Media. But before we do that, I wanted to just catch up with you, Alexi, see how you're doing, and maybe we can kind of set the stage and create some context for your new show.

Yeah. The last time I saw you, we were in Paris and we were at the Olympics, both of us. And your daughter Jaya helped with an indie film I shot. And now I'm home and I had a surgery on my collarbone that is like a very cool scar. And I feel like it's like a new school year. Like it is a new school year,

but I feel it's a new school year for me too. Yeah, well, so much packed into like that one sentence. Yes, we were both in Paris together, both doing stuff for brands and, you know, kind of participating in the whole Olympics thing, which was like incredible. It was the first time I'd been to an Olympics and you were all over the place doing tons of stuff

while also remarkably basically producing and starring in a feature film, which I don't know how you were doing that. And I wanna thank you publicly for having Jaya, our 17 year old daughter kind of join your team and work as a PA on the film. That was a very meaningful experience for her. And she learned a ton from you and your team.

Jaya is awesome. Jaya also brought me, Jaya was so calm because I had, you know, there was an accident that happened outside the track and my collarbone got smashed. And it was like the two producers and Jaya and myself got in an Uber to the closest hospital. and myself got in an Uber to the closest hospital and she fed me water in this really nightmarish waiting room. And I was like, wow, like this is a human who is like really like in touch and like able to kind of just like be like, you know what I mean? Like,

cause I really needed water. Like I really couldn't move my arm. To anticipate your. Yeah. And I felt like as, you know, I care a lot about her and I felt like we weren't, we couldn't possibly have sheltered her from the like rough edges of making an art project

or of doing something or of having an unexpected thing happen. And she seemed to like understand and like be okay with that. And that was really nice. She loved it. I mean, she's studying film and is super into production. So it was just amazing that those two things like lined up with us both being in Paris at the same time. So thank you again. And I'm glad that she added value to the project. And I'm also lamenting the fact that you broke your collarbone like in Paris,

like what a bummer amidst everything that you had going on to have to contend with that at the same time. Yeah, it was wild, but you know, it was kind of cool in a way because I had, I was very grateful to be able to go into the Olympic village most days. And that was really nostalgic for me, but also with the brace,

I felt like a sport from like an impact sport athlete. And so people like, I felt like a skateboarder and I felt like I fit in with like a different community cause in running it's all this overuse injuries. And so I felt like I was like, oh yeah, yeah, I fell and I smashed my collarbone. I had to have that thing stitched up the next day. I got all these screws in my arm

and that would have never happened in a running race. Also getting a lot of empathy from athletes who probably thought that you were there as an athlete. Yes, yes. I mean, it was, yes. Oh no, you're here to compete in the Olympics and you broke your collarbone. Right, yeah, the empathy was there

and I had some really cool experiences though. There was like, um, a few athletes like prayed over my, like, there was like these experiences you have that, um, make you understand when they say like Olympic friendship, they really mean people who don't have to interact deciding to like be there for one another. And it's really cool. Like the respect and like love between athletes is really real there. Yeah, I could feel it. I didn't go to the village, but I was around enough to, you know,

kind of by osmosis feel that sensibility for sure. Yeah, it was cool. Paris was like back. For sure. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, it was great to be there. They did a great job. It was such a cool Olympiad. And then to come home and realize

how popular the games were, cause that's the thing when you're there, you don't quite know how the world is absorbing all the things that are happening there. And prior to Paris, the Olympics were kind of on the wane in terms of mainstream kind of excitement about them. And I feel like NBC, the media and the games and Paris all did such a great job to kind of bring it back. Right. I think people were like really excited about it. Yeah. It was, I mean, it was like the best,

it was the best thing ever. And I think it's a really positive force in the world right it's like people chasing their dreams in one place in this like like tight amount of time but loose enough that you can actually find your way to a sport that you've never seen before you know like going to I went to break dancing finals and I was like wow it's like a whole other world of the judge, you can't, it's just so different. The other thing that I felt was sort of new and different was a larger like embrace of people who got silver and bronze medals and also athletes who were excited about being on the podium

and not winning gold. Like I feel like my generation, it was kind of about gold medals or nothing, you know, and oh, that's great, you got a silver or a bronze. Whereas it felt in this Olympiad, and I'm curious if you agree with this, that there was a lot of attention and a lot of excitement

on behalf of the athletes and the crowds for the people that got the non-gold medals. Yeah, well, and you saw it started with the athletes, right? Because you could see, like, I remember at the skateboarding finals, like, they all, like, held each other up. Like, it was like this awesome little, like, parade of all three of them together. And so I think leadership starts with athletes embracing athletes and then us realizing, oh, they're not enemies. They actually like, they respect each other. They might even be friends. Usually they are because they've been competing against each other for a long time

before that moment. Yeah. And I mean, I've been thinking a lot about how like the world for the generation of athletes, like coming up that peaked in Paris. It's a challenging world, right? So, like, to be there is a really big deal, right? The standards are impossible. The circumstances, you know, to grow up and feel okay. I think a lot of these kids had the COVID upbringing. You know, it's like, I think it's just a really big moment to be there and people really feeling that it's a privilege. It's an opportunity. It's really big moment to be there and people really feeling that it's a privilege, it's an opportunity, it's a celebration just to be there felt real.

Yeah, sure, sure, sure, sure. It was cool. That's cool. Well, you're back now, your tentacles are spreading far and wide into all kinds of different projects, but we're here today to talk about Mentor Buffet, your brand new podcast that I am very proudly supporting

among my Voicing Change team members to help you birth into the world and craft into everything you want it to be. So first of all, congrats, and maybe take a moment to explain the concept of the show and why you decided to jump into this whole podcasting thing. Yeah. Well, it is hugely thanks to your belief in me because I think I have had,

I have ideas in my life, right? Like I had an idea of like, I want to go to the Olympics, but it was like, I had a coach who had been, who was like, you could take this seriously. And then I dove fully into it, but I can't, I can't say that it hasn't been helpful to have people believe in me and be like, walk through this door. And so I'm very grateful to you. And, you know, this show started as a chapter of my book, Bravey, about how, you know, I lost my mom young to, you know, difficult circumstances and felt that it was unfair, right? It was unfair. She left this world. It felt bizarre to not have this resource, but made a decision that in lieu of this one Keystone mentor, I would reach for everything else that I might've needed because otherwise I wouldn't have survived. Like I was like,

I need information and I wasn't getting it just for my dad and my brother. I needed it. And so that chapter was about all these mentors in my life. And the show is about talking. It's me talking to people I admire about who helped them along their journey. And what I like about it is that I think mentorship can seem very, you know, you're lucky if you have it. It's this passive thing that you either receive from a random tree, like an apple falling. But it's not usually that way, right? And I think for a lot of these guests, it's like a single interaction they had. It's a friend. It's two months they spent in India in the case of Diplo with this person. And so hopefully it can open people's eyes up

to the possibility for mentorship in their own life. I think it's a great conceit. A, because you get to have all these really cool people on who are kind of tired of telling their story time and time again. And instead light up when they have the opportunity to shine a light on some anonymous person who made a big difference in their life.

I think that's really cool. And obviously it's invigorating for the guests to be able to do that because it's an act of service that they can give to, they can honor that person, right? And that just, I think that feels good for everybody to be able to do that because it's an act of service that they can give to, they can honor that person, right? And that just, I think that feels good for everybody to be able to do that. And I think secondarily, I think it's really interesting and smart to narrow the focus of your show, like on this one thing, like now there's so many podcasts, right? Like how do you choose? And it's no longer like enough to say,

well, I'm gonna have interesting conversations with interesting people. Like it's too crowded. So how do you stand out? And by deciding like, okay, this is the area that I'm gonna focus on, I think is special. And I believe in the show

and I think you're doing a great job and I'm excited to share an episode on the feed. I can't wait. And I can't excited to share an episode on the feed. I can't wait. And I can't wait to talk to you on the show. Yeah, are you gonna ever invite me on? Yes, I'm waiting for my invitation. I feel like I needed to like- I have a lot to say on this subject

that might be a little bit different than other people. Well, that's the idea, you know, is that the goal is to learn. It's like, it feels like grad school to me, but it feels like a grad school where there was no, like, there's no textbook, right? There's like a person and what actually, who actually affected them, which isn't even up to them. It's like, you're either, you know, you either learn from someone or you don't, right? Yeah. And I think it expands our kind of rigid concept of mentorship. We tend to think of it like,

oh, I'm gonna find this person that is well known and I'm gonna convince them to allow me to be under their wing. And yes, I guess that's how mentorship works for some people, but by and large, and for most people, it's not that, right? It is the random person or the unlikely kind of, you know, individual who saunters into somebody's life.

And sometimes it's a prolonged relationship. And sometimes to your point, it's just a, it's one conversation that ends up making the difference. And I think it allows people to have a more, a more expansive idea of what that might look like for themselves. And also as a consequence to draw kind of greater presence

and attention to their daily lives to kind of look out for that. And when they feel like maybe there is that energy, you know, coming their way to, you know, find a way to kind of move towards that as opposed to kind of dismiss it as a one-off whatever. Yeah, exactly. I mean, I think, I don't know if I'm supposed

to say this here, but I think this is gonna introduce the episode with Zach Braff, right? I believe that's true, yes. Well, and he, when I first met him, he was telling me about you as one of the people in his life, but he hadn't even met you. And I thought that was so rad because sometimes mentors- You were chatting with him before we met?

Before I met him and learned about his mentor, his mentors, I met him and he heard me on your show. See, this is how the world is. So whatever, you know, but he was expressing how much your show was a mentor to him and he had never met you. I see. You know, and what was powerful about that is like,

when you allow someone to like, be your mentor who you have never met. Like, I love that there's an imaginative element to it too, of basically saying this person is teaching me something, whether or not they're talking directly to me and know my name. Anyway, I think that's a cool thing about- Well, I adore Zach.

I feel very fortunate to have him in my life and to be able to call him a friend. I think he's a brilliant artist and a very insightful person who's navigated a lot in his life to be the person that he is. And I'm delighted that you guys hit it off. I think he originally like reached out to me about, he like really wanted to meet you.

Yeah, because he had heard you on the show. Yeah, it was nice. He's like a, he's a curious and confident person. And I think that like equal parts curious and confident means you're like, I have some, you know, I have a perspective and I want to grow and change. And I think that's also like what your network is, you know, what this show is, is hopefully it's helping people have tools to change, right? It's educational because I would have liked more information available to me and handed to me.

I wanted information. Me too. Right? It's part of why I started this. Me too. Right, like you just sometimes. It's part of why I started this. I was like, wow, you know, if this kind of resources, these types of resources had been available to me at, you know, my formative stages, it could have made a huge difference. Yeah, that's why you started it.

It's a big part of it, yeah. Because when I started listening to podcasts very, very early on before anyone else I knew was listening to them, I was like, what is, there's so much here. Like, oh my goodness. Like when I graduated from college, you go to the career counseling office

and there's like brochures for consulting companies and investment banks. And that's kind of it, you know? And it's like your sense of possibility, even though I was at this remarkable, you know, university still felt very limited. And had I had something like podcasts available to me where all kinds of people were sharing stories about how they became who they became and how they did it and all of that, it

just expands your ceiling on what's possible and kind of enhances your imagination around like your own trajectory in life. Yeah, I'm finding in this experience of like learning the craft, cause it is its own medium, right? Like it's different than writing a book or writing a movie. It's its own medium that, you know, I'm learning from you, I'm learning by doing

and I'm learning it's very, it's observational rather than like conclusionary. Cause it's like, it's more process oriented because you're encountering people at a moment in their life and they have observations they have something to say but they haven't you know because there's two people it's not it's not scripted right like or at least ours are not and so there's a really like lovely aliveness to it that feels like you're not trying to say something that we'll never have anything else to say about.

It's just like, this is where we are today about these things. I think it's a medium that suits the way that human beings learn best, because you could take a conversation that you had with somebody and distill it down into like the three lessons and write a blog post or make a listicle or whatever

and share that, would that impact people? Maybe, but I think it's much more profound and impactful when those principles are kind of a product of an authentic and organic conversation in which a person tells a story, because that's the way we kind of remember and process information. That's true.

And it kind of like indicates that we are changing all the time. Like it indicates that you can be in a process too, right? Like, because- We're all in a process. Yeah, but I think a lot of mediums are bookended, right? It's like the end of the movie, the end of the book. A lot of art is pretty, it ends. And there's something really meaningful about that, too. But I'm finding it to be a really wonderful space for me to not be finished either, which is really wonderful to feel safe being like, I am just, this is one rung on the belt that keeps going.

Sure, well, if you're approaching it with curiosity and what you're trying to learn and how you're trying to grow, you put yourself in the seat of the audience member who can relate to that, because we're all trying to do that on some level. Yeah, yeah. Don't you think? Yes.

So who are some of the other guests that you've had on and who are coming up? Well, we have, well, Rain Wilson was the first episode and that was really fun because he's also in our network. Yeah, keeping it in the family. Yeah, it was fun. And he's like, he was so curious and I loved that conversation

because I didn't get to go to NYU as an actor, but like that would have been an amazing experience for me. And so to kind of experience something that I never have and expedited and learn from him was amazing. We had Diplo on and that was really special because I admire Wes's like, how does he exist? And to learn how his mind works is almost, is more profound to me than seeing his work. There's something like mythical about that guy, I think. And I know that you just came from Seattle

where you were with him for part of his, you know, Diplo's Run Club, which is like this new thing that he's doing, right? And it looked unbelievable. Like how many people showed up for this run? The San Francisco one had 14,000 people. Unbelievable. Like I can't tell you how much, how seamlessly this race felt like it brought together

people who love to party, but might care about their health and people who love running, but might care about their health and people who love running but might not ever have an outlet to just like move their body in a way that is not rigid and like doesn't, is not for anyone but themselves. And it was so cool. It brings in like the non-athlete crowd, right? Because he has a whole fan base

that has nothing to do with health and fitness in the same way like Travis Barker is doing a version of it also, like his Run Travis Run. And my friend Toby Morse did one of them recently. They had one in LA and he said it was incredible because all these sort of punk rock people show up and they have never run a race in their life and they're in fans and,

you know, like, or, you know, like, like it's a whole, it opens the aperture of running up to an entirely new community because of the fan bases that these musicians have. Yeah. It was, I mean, and there were bravies there who like hadn't, didn't, were kind of finding their way with like, do I film myself or do I just put my phone away and that was like a real moment for me of realizing like do I just exist in a moment and like drop myself in and and be almost like decontextualize yourself so not being like I'm a runner who is at a party who but just be like you are feeling feeling the music. Yes, you're in a sports bra, but like be whatever you are. So it was cool to see that too.

And what is your role with that unfolding kind of experience? Cause you're kind of right by his side and then you're up on stage afterwards, like dancing around while he's like doing a set. Yeah, which is fun for me. I mean, that's different. Well, look, I ran with him in the LA LA marathon and this inspired the run club, right? Like he felt like, oh, there's a real like space here. He's interested in it. There needs to be a social element that he

can bring. And then these first two San Francisco, Seattle were, you know, that was this year's, you know, kind of launch and it was highly successful. And I ran with him, which I think is helpful because he like, whatever I can, you know, it's, it's, it's helpful for a lot of reasons. It's fun. Um, and his, I don't know, like his bodyguard is not going to run the 5k with him. Like it's, it's helpful to kind of bring a certain energy to it that is different from his. It's different. And then on stage, you know, what is cool is like, I do feel since this Paris trip, I really feel that I have no other choice but to be myself.

It is so weird. I feel, I don't know where it's leading, but I feel in touch with myself. And so when I'm on the stage, it's like, I just felt like I wanted to dance like me. And it's not cool. Like, I'm on the stage, it's like, I just felt like I wanted to dance like me and it's not cool. Like I'm not like cool, but to be yourself is cool. Like that's cool. So I think it brings an element of like, you know, it's also fun to have an Olympian there, right? Sure. Dancing and celebrating. Sure, sure. Right. Awesome, and so who else?

What other guests? Well, Tommy Caldwell. Yeah, I just walked over to your studio next door to gather you to do this, and I see Tommy Caldwell, and I was like, wait a minute, I'd never met him before, but I just had Alex Honnold in here, and they just had a TV, they have a TV show that's about to premiere,

probably will be up by the time this goes up. And I was like, whoa, Tommy, I'm like, we need to exchange notes. Cause I had no idea that he was gonna be in the studio today, but sorry, I interrupted you. You didn't interrupt, you came, I mean, this is kind of the spirit of what we're doing too, is like, it means so much too,

when you come up into the studio, like this is part of the joy of this is that I feel like you're really building like a community. So for you to come say hi was awesome. And Tommy, you know, what that really represents is like, I want to talk to people across disciplines, you know, like athletes, artists, chefs, musicians, and just show just that mentorship both exists and is a big wild, wild west in every industry, right? It's not like it is just the same everywhere.

And yet everybody needed help to get where they are. Of course, of course. I don't know, there's so many fun, there's a lot of fun people. Well, there's so much more we could say, but we should probably let people listen to this episode, which is the one between you and Zach Braff. I haven't watched or listened to this one in full,

but I did see the reel that you shared where he beautifully tells this unbelievable story around the most impactful scene in Garden State, which was the conclusion that ultimately didn't make it into the movie. And it's a story that ends up kind of leaving you emotional, right, for reasons I think I know. And maybe we won't spoil it.

We should just let people know that there is kind of like an emotional journey that you go on in your conversation with him. Yeah, and I think part of that is some of these people don't know me that well and they don't have to know me that well to have me talk to them and learn from them. I think what's kind of fun about this show is like, I think I can learn from anybody if I sit down and talk to them and I from them. I think what's kind of fun about this show is like, I think I can learn from

anybody if I sit down and talk to them and I want to learn. And so I think the conversation with Zach was that. And I think all of them serve as like both there's information you'll learn, but also just to like watch people share about what they learned is kind of this, I don't know, it's like a, it's not theatrical, but it's like, it is something, right? Something's happening there with that exchange. Yeah, cool. Well, let's not spoil it any further. Let's let people enjoy this conversation

between you and filmmaker, actor, Zach Braff on the newly minted, recently launched Mentor Buffet, which you can find on YouTube and on all your favorite podcast players. More information also at voicingchange.media. And do you have a website for Mentor Buffet or should people go to your website? People should go to the Mentor Buffet

Instagram and TikTok. Oh, that's right. And it's every Thursday and we want you to go in for seconds. Yeah. And you're going to love this episode. So just stop right now and subscribe everywhere. Yeah. And because it is the Mentor Buffet, you should go in, it's all you can eat, Mentor Buffet, you should go in, it's all you can eat, and then go in for seconds and thirds. Yum, yum, yum. I had a movie called The Broken Hearts Club that was playing at the Sunset Five, which was an art house theater at the time,

and I was waiting tables. I had an experience where people would come from the movie to the restaurant, and I would wait on them. And I remember people coming to me, and they would do a double take, and they were just like, we just saw your movie. And I'd say, oh, thank you so much. And they'd say, you were great.

I'd say, oh, thank you. I really appreciate it. Let me tell you about the specials. We live in a complex and ever-changing world, a place that is maybe harder than ever to successfully navigate. The answer is surely to be brave, but it's also to seek and be open to guidance. Mentors are the one consistent through line in the lives of all accomplished people, myself included. So welcome to Mentor Buffet, a feast for those, like me, curious about who helped the most successful

among us succeed. Zach Braff has been an actor his entire life. He first acted when he was 14 alongside Gwyneth Paltrow in a CBS TV pilot that never aired. And he also did a bunch of other roles since then. He auditioned a ton. He went to film school. He was really trying to make it work. In his early 20s, he followed a girl he loved to LA and kept trying to make it. I was broke. So I had that Nissan and I had a job at the restaurant.

And then his mentor, Bill Lawrence, entered the picture. Bill Lawrence, who created Scrubs and Ted Lasso and Cougar Town and Shrinking and Spin City. Bill is the first person who really gave Zach a big Hollywood chance. My journey began when I auditioned for the first time for Scrubs. Which became a big hit and catapulted Zach into mainstream celebrity. Sometimes mentorship starts because somebody really believes in you. I really celebrate Zach's debut feature Garden State, which I saw at exactly the right place and exactly the right time in my life. And you know what I'm talking about with movies like that for you. I've learned a lot from Zach. His lessons are about staying true to your dreams and then

figuring it out from there. Here's the actor, writer, director, Zach Braff and me. We say like only in Hollywood can you go see a movie and have the star of the movie wait on you for dessert. That's- And there are other times where I would have like a meet. I remember going in and meeting with like a potential manager and I'm bragging about how my career is blowing up and how I'm up for this and I'm up for that.

And I was in this and you know, like you do, just like hyping yourself up so that you seem so desirable. And then that night, the guy sat down at my table to be waited on with all his friends. And it was so humbling. And I actually really enjoyed being a waiter, even though it was very hard. But I often smile when I think of the camaraderie

and the laughs we had and the worst of tensions and the worst of stresses on a Friday night when you're in the weeds and you're just screwed. You have so many tables you can just shake your head and laugh. And I remember some of the biggest belly laughs I've ever had have been in that environment. That's awesome. But it was humbling in trying to present yourself as blowing up and then, you know, but whatever. It was what I had to do. And it's not that you're not blowing up. It's just that everything takes longer than we think.

I think because I'd been at it since I was a kid, I was getting a little bit. Were you getting? I knew that I would work in production. You know, what I always say to aspiring actors and directors and the like is, you know, there's a lot of wonderful artists and jobs in the industry that aren't being an actor, that aren't being a filmmaker, that aren't being a screenwriter. So you can pursue those and get trained in a bunch of the trades

and be involved in production if that's what you like. You know, I would have been a camera assistant. I would have been a camera operator. I would have been a first AD. I loved just the world of production. So I sort of knew in the back of my mind, I'm going to try as hard as I can in being the leader and being an actor who can, you know, pay to live here.

But, you know, if that doesn't work out, I don't have to go be an orthodontist. I can still do, I can work in the space that I love. And so I try and encourage young people to do that, to not just pursue trying to be a star, because that's ridiculous. Yeah, and it's out of your hands a bit. Like there like you know it's like there's give and take there and it sounds like you're really someone who like wanted to be in the game you're like i like this i like this

game i want to be in the game right there's a lot of positions i think a lot of people set themselves up for i'm going to try to to make a living at at the hardest things to make a living at the hardest things to make a living at. And then if it doesn't happen, I'll have to go do something else. And for those that this applies to, I say, you know, simultaneously be learning a skill set. In the example that you like production, learn a skill set on set that's something that you could do that isn't being an could do that isn't

being an actor, that isn't being a writer-director because the odds of those happening and also being enough money for you to survive are slim. Yeah, I think that's very wise. It's like, I have no better way of saying what you said. Finally, tell me about Bill. The next chapter of my journey began when I auditioned for the first time for Scrubs. I had heard that they'd been looking a long time for this guy. And I went in and... This guy. This guy, JD. It's just awesome that he's like a...

They're looking for him. him yeah I mean the the lead of a show I mean any character in the show but when you're casting stuff is now I've been on the other side of the table a bunch it's like it's it's not it's kind of intimidating will we find the guy because the show you know 75 percent of making something good is casting it. It makes or breaks everything. And so I think for them, the casting people, and Bill Lawrence who created Scrubs, and Ted Lasso, and Cougar Town, and Shrinking, and Spin City,

they were kind of nervous. They couldn't really find the guy. And so I went in and the casting director, literally, it was such a click. It was such a fit. The cast director was like, what are you doing later this afternoon? You have to meet Bill. I mean, he was so instantly excited about my read. And it was exciting for me because so many things that I was reading at that time, I really didn't find that funny. It was sort of sitcom-y jokes that I tried my best to make funny, but it was not something I would have watched. Whereas when I read Scrubs, I laughed so hard.

It was so my sense of humor. It was subversive and it was kind of racy and it was the whole single camera fantasy aspect. It was pretty out of the box at the time. And I'll never forget that I just kept getting called back. I kept getting called back for more and more. And I got really superstitious and I started wearing the same clothes every time. Oh, I do that. I wear the same socks when I race.

I used to wear the same socks and not wash them. I don't know if you have time to stop in a race and change them, but you don't wash them. That's gross. They're lucky socks. Okay. Yeah. Anyway, so Bill really believed in me. Bill was the first person to really give me a big shot as a lead. And I was completely unknown. I was waiting tables and he just believed in me. And he really went to bat for me because there were people that were up for the part

that were famous, that were on household names. And he really believed in me and campaigned for me. And then I got the part and it was life-changing, obviously. But then he began, it continued. The great thing about, if you're an aspiring filmmaker and you're on a TV show, a single camera comedy, one thing that's wonderful is there's a different director every week. So it's like grad school for a filmmaker

because every single episode of Scrubs, a new filmmaker with a new style and a new modus operandi on set would come in and I could learn from him or her and be like, ooh, I love the way they are doing that. Ooh, I'm not so crazy about the way they do that. And so I was just a sponge. And also too, with the improvising and with comedy writing, Bill was so good at it. He was so, one of the things he's masterful at is the blocking of the scene and figuring out the funniest way to block the actors. And then also coming up with new jokes on the day that are better than what's written. And so that whole way of working, of going at the blocking rehearsal

when we figure out who's going to be where and who's going to say what and when are you going to grab that, it's clear from his track record, he was a master of that. So it was an incredible grad school in directing and in directing comedy. It's awesome because you are a writer, director, actor. That's not everybody who does any one of those things. Yeah. Do you think that Bill is like, did he make you want to be doing that?

Or did you always? It's funny. At first, he was a very big brotherly to me in some ways. He was very supportive of me, but I think he was skeptical about my writing and directing aspects. I think also he just wanted me to be the star of his show and be great and be focused. But then I went and made Garden State,

which kind of like, you know, in a funny way, an audition for Bill to show that I could make things. That's very sweet. That's really, really sweet. I cut Garden State in my living room. We were saving money everywhere. So we set up the Avid, the computer system we cut movies on in my living room. I had just bought my first house and there was no furniture in it. There was nothing in it except for the Avid computer terminal in my living room. And, um, and I think a couch and two chairs. And then I asked Bill to come watch it and give me notes. Um, and he did. And that was really,

really important because he gave me some major, uh, feedback. Can you tell me about it? I had an ending that was a bit shocking that's not in the film. It's an ending that I wrote that was a bit of a twist, a reveal, that ultimately was really powerful, but it was kind of upsetting. I remember that Bill watched the movie and he said, that is the most powerful scene in your movie and it will never be in your movie. And he goes, you can't see it yet, but I'm just going to plant that seed. This is an example of trying something on.

And because your instincts, your instant response is like are you out of your mind like you think i'm gonna cut that scene like that but you try the coat on and you sit with it and then ultimately he was he was right you want to know what it is don't you i want to know what it is and i and and and because i want to understand what it is because I want to understand how he thinks not because I'm like he was right so in short without telling us too long for those of your listeners and viewers that know the movie Garden State

the mother character had drowned in the bathtub she was a paraplegic and she sort of mysteriously drowned in the bathtub. And we, the audience for the whole movie, assume it was an accident. We don't know really exactly what happened. And then the story becomes mostly about a love story

about two people finding each other who really desperately need each other. And what I had written, because she had made lots of allusions to not wanting to live anymore, the mother, that she had attempted suicide and was extreme depressive and really just didn't want to be alive anymore. was extreme depressive and really just didn't want to be alive anymore. I had written a scene that towards the end of the movie, that's a flashback to the night that she drowned. And you hear her screaming in the water. And then Ian Holmes' character, the father, runs to go save her and then has an epiphany as he reaches the doorframe of the bathroom

and he stops himself and he grips the side of the doorway and he realizes how desperately his wife doesn't want to be alive anymore. And from his point of view, he loves her so much that he decides he's going to do what she wants and let her go. And he slowly backs up from the doorframe and sits down on the bed and listens to her drown. And then after she stops screaming, he picks up the phone and calls 911. I didn't mean to make you cry. I'm sorry. No, it's... Well, why do you think that it's not in there? It's very raw and it's very intense and it's very painful and it's something a lot of people who have had suicide in their life

or people they love who've contemplated suicide, it's so raw and painful that it hijacked the whole emotional end of the film. Which is a lot about other decision making. Of course. And also because you don't know what you're making until you make something. I didn't really fully realize that I'd made a love story. Yeah. And you don't want all of those emotions and rawness and painful feelings derailing the love story you spent two hours building.

derailing the love story you spent two hours building. Well, it's powerful because Bill is basically saying that, like, it's basically like restraint for the sake of balance, right? Absolutely, which is a huge part of being a filmmaker. It's like a conductor of the orchestra being like, your violin playing is fucking perfect, but in this particular piece, it's too loud. Well, it's so loud i mean the reason why i teared up this is whatever i've you know personal stories related to this and

like i would have like my dad likes it you know i've saved my mom like we've been there you know and so like the thought that someone um like maybe people would have made that decision. I don't know. It's just so, like, my dad wouldn't have done that, you know? And it's like, obviously, that dad isn't my dad. Right. I mean, he was a bit of a controlling narcissist of a, you know, if you remember the film, he's heavily drugging his son.

Totally, totally. You know, he's not exactly the dream dad. But he means well, right? But in this, what I wrote, you know, what I cut, I think I did sell that he means well. Yeah, that's what I mean, is that he means well. And so, like, to not even give him the, like, it's like he didn't need, you had done the task of that character or whatever it is as a director. And anyway, anyway, I just, it's an awesome story because it must have been so hard

to cut something that you had, like had put so much time and energy into and shot and probably felt quite good about it as an isolated... I knew it was a problem. I knew it was a problem because when you make something, when you make a film, you don't really know what it is until you get in the edit room. The way I think of it, it's like a scavenger hunt. You go out and you have only 26 days

or something on a low budget movie and you're frantically collecting as much as you can. And it's like, then you run back to the edit room after your 26 days and you're kind of like, what did we get?

And then as you begin to shape it, it morphs into something anew. It's not the script that you wrote. It's things, a performance so rises to the top that you go, oh my goodness. I made a movie with Joey King, my film Wish I Was Here. And Joey King, as a young girl, was so extraordinary that my brother and I couldn't help, but edit the film to feature Joey more because it was like the, the camera couldn't, the camera didn't want you to cut away from her. My point.

And then with garden state, there was another plot line I cut out. There was this, there's this, it obviously became so much about the love story between Natalie and, and, and myself. And,

and, and so as you, if you know, often an assembly of everything you shot is three hours long. So as you begin to cut away the clay and go, what is the two hour, an hour 45 movie I'm telling, you have to make bold choices. And in shaping that, you start to see your story and in a world where I've chosen this particular sculpture that intense scene doesn't live in this movie anymore

to be able to like see something for what it actually ends up being right is sort of a loss of control a little bit right because you try as hard as you can up until that point to like capture what you're capturing and so like what I mean is it seems like a wonderful lesson in like accepting what is actually true

versus like forcing things in life. Because like sometimes things present to us, right? And they're not what we thought or they're just different. And like that's hard for people isn't life similar where like we don't always like how things turn out are not really always how we thought that they would turn out and like your ability to like take what it actually is and like live with it or make it the best that it can be is such an important thing. Absolutely. I mean, I think that's what my last film, A Good Person, was about. It was about what starts as a tragedy, a horrible car accident, ends up being, ends up yielding

one of the most powerful friendships that this woman will ever have in her whole life. A friendship that ultimately in the macro will probably change her life for the better. Yeah. And it begins with vehicular manslaughter. I mean, I think that that's an enormous part of life is setting off in one direction and seeing what flowers. But most people don't want to do that. Like they don't want to, like, it's so uncomfortable.

Like it's so uncomfortable to not know like where things are going or like how much control you can have. But look what beautiful things have happened to you as an example. You set out to be an athlete and then this led to this, which led to this, which led to this. And now you're doing something that I imagine lights you up quite a bit. It's cool. It's cool.

It's just like, I think I just, we just have to like surrender that that's normal or like that that's life. Like that is like if you're opting into life, you're opting into like accepting that the thing that. Loving your fate. That's a, that's a, amor fati is Latin, which comes up in a good person. But the idea of loving your fate. Loving what is so, what happens. Yes, loving it. Loving it is...

Choosing it. Choosing it and loving it is better than accepting it too. Because accepting it feels like there's like a... Accepting it is like fine. Loving it is like, I fucking love this. They'll give you a really specific like note and you were able to learn a really big lesson. And that feels like a really specific way to mentor

that is super helpful, you know, because it's the opposite of going to class. Because in class, it feels like you learn theories, you learn techniques, you learn rules. And this was like you saw it directly applied to something that you had thought of. So it must have resonated more. And you must, I mean, those instructions resonate the most, right?

Yeah, and it continues. That was a huge first example. But then as my career continued up until this day, I always show him well not only do I direct his show shrinking but I whenever I'm working on something I bring it to him and be like can I get your advice on this what do you think whether it's a script whether it's a commercial whether it's a feature because I I trust his his gut and I and I want to know what he has to say. So the mentorship sort of continues.

We've both gotten really into sauna cold plunging because, of course, it's Los Angeles. Why wouldn't we? And so we have a lot of good mentorship sessions in the sauna. And a three-minute cold plunge as well. We don't talk during the three-minute cold plunge. We have a quiet time during the cold part because we're in pain, but the sauna is where we bond. That's awesome. That's awesome. Can we talk more about like believing in yourself? Because like,

it's such a like, it's an elusive thing, right? Like people, where do you think for you it came from? And we can like find it. Like what does it does it just exist like is it just like i like this thing and therefore i i'm just i don't even know if there's an answer to this i think it really coming from me i can't speak for everyone for me i think it came from parents that that instilled in me a confidence how you know i wasn't typical kid. I had zero interest in sports, which, you know, going to public school in New Jersey, that was hard because that's where kids made friends. That was really the social circles. My parents went out of their way to find a community for me by finding a theater camp for me because even a camp, summer camp, which was popular on the East Coast, they were all sort of sports themed yes that's that's most camps right you did you go to camp not like east coast kids did no i mean i went to soccer camp like i did that stuff but it was like it was like intense

right yeah so this was these were like you know generic camps where yeah where you do lots of things but my parents found a theater basedbased one called Stage Door Manor. And I went there and it was like one of the most epiphanous moments of my whole life. How old are you? I must have been like 12. And I just, it was like, it was like your props. It was like Alice in Wonderland. I was like, I had no idea that there was like a world of people like me. It was the first time in my life I really felt

um like I wasn't a weirdo so maybe the belief is like part the like parental you know it's part like upbringing and part exposure to like feeling like there's a world where you could belong exactly I think that's good I think it was parents being great parents saying, let's find community and acceptance for this child. And they didn't know that I would flourish in that world, by the way. They were just being great parents. They had no idea if I was good or not. They just wanted me to not feel alone and sad

because I was a pretty anxious kid and i think they saw how not only did i flourish there but how i never wanted to leave i would felt like i was being pulled out of out of heaven when i had to leave right those summer camp those camp it's like a any camp experience but it sounds like yours. It's like you never want it to end. No, also because I realized in hindsight, I was a very sensitive kid. I was very vulnerable. And there were role models, speaking of mentors, of men who were that way, who were sensitive and affectionate and artists. I didn't have any of that in my real life.

I had very sort of alpha, jockey, tough guy men in my life. My father wasn't, but I mean, in school and in my community. And so I think I saw this whole new way of being. But actually, it's funny, it all ties to Scrubs because I think the reason JD resonated with so many men was he was sort of bringing that to primetime ABC and NBC. And that was the first place I saw that it was kind of okay to be who I was. The moment that we see that it's okay to be who we are, we still have a choice to step fully into

it or not. Like that, I think about often the metaphor or the science of a caterpillar becoming a butterfly. I love that. I heard you talk about that on Rich Roll. And it's one of the reasons I wanted to meet you because I love that. And well, and that they don't have a choice, but we do, right? So you choose to step forward and say that like, okay, this new universe of people, the way that people carry themselves is like me

and I want to be around more and more people like that. And that's not a one-time choice. That's almost an everyday choice, I think. Well, that's interesting to me too. I think every morning it's like, I mean, not that I literally do this, although I probably should, but it's choosing all the time

to be fully expressed and fully yourself because we constantly want to retreat, in your analogy, back to the cocoon. Yeah, or back into like a protective personality that we put on to survive. Absolutely. Do you, I mean, I want to talk about Belle. I really do. But now that we're talking about like waking up and being whatever, like being the you. More than anything, that's the theme. I think that's been the most powerful tool is gratitude and appreciation of all the good things that are happening in my life. I think when you meditate on that as often as you can, I literally just set an alarm on my phone. I was talking to

my therapist about how I do a morning meditation, about focusing on my day and gratitude. And I do it when I get into bed at night. And he said, why not add a third one? Why not put an alarm on your phone at the middle of the day to remind yourself to take a couple moments and think about gratitude for whatever's been going on in your day thus far? Which is something I never thought I would do. Now you do it. To please my therapist, I started. Well, the middle of the day thing is cool

because the middle of the day is when we're getting blown blown by the wind that isn't our own, right? Like when you wake up, like the thing disturbing you is like things ahead and like your dreams or something, you know, and then before bed, it's, I feel like in the middle of the day, you can make the most, you can pivot the most. And I never really heard about that and all the people I've heard talk about

gratitude and meditation and the like, the idea of stopping in the middle of the day and being like, okay, how's today going so far? What can you focus on positive that's happened? What do you have to be grateful for? I don't know. I don't know if I'm able to keep it up, but I'm trying. I wonder if your days feel longer too. Like if you break it up in the middle. Well, it's not very long. No, it's just a matter of taking a few minutes to be like, close your eyes and focus on how lucky you are to be alive and healthy and that your body, to have a soul, to have a body, to be able to afford to eat, to have a house, to have a roof over your head.

Even the most simplest things, to have people in your life that love you. It helps you just reframe any stupid stress that you're having. Where all you have are shin splints and everything else. All I have are shin splints. I'm like, help me, Obi-Wan. You're my only hope. I'm going to help you. I'm going to help you.

No, I meant that it might make your day feel longer because you could have like two different kinds of days. Because if you like take the reset, you can shit, right? Absolutely. Like you're not, what I mean is it's like, this is why I love production days too, because the lunch break, you're actually like just supposed to chill and like you're not supposed to keep plowing through.

You know about changing your socks, right? No, tell me. I want to learn everything from you. This is very important because you're also very into socks. Because I, yes, I like socks. I like, who everything from you. This is very important because you're also very into socks. Because I, yes, I like socks. I like, who doesn't like a good pair of socks? But don't you, aren't you like into socks?

Or maybe you just have sock partnerships. I have sock partnerships, but we don't want to lead all the readers into believing I'm into socks because that will lead them to believing that I'm into feet, which is not a path that we want to go down. She's not into feet. them to believing that I'm in defeat, which is not a path that we want to go down. She's not in defeat. I think it was Sidney LeMay when he was asked, what's your best advice for directors? It was change your socks at lunch. And it's true.

Why? Well, by the time six hours have rolled by, if you're a director, you've really sweat a lot and you're walking around in damp, gross socks. And there's something about at your lunch break, which is a half hour, an hour, depending on the production of going somewhere. Hopefully you have at least a tiny six by four trailer cubby, if anything, but wherever you, whatever you have, even if it's just a chair on the side of the road, there's something about changing to fresh socks and dry, clean, tight socks that feels like a reset. And when I read it, I was like, that's funny, but I'm going to try it just for the fun of it. And it really does something. Maybe it's psychosomatic, but it feels like, okay, new chapter. It's also invisible to everybody else.

Like I feel like if you came out with a new shirt or sweatshirt, it would be bizarre. It would be outward facing. Right. But the socks is for you. Nobody knows. And it's just you. And there's just something about like it gives a little psychosomatic newness to the second half of the day.

That's the best director advice I can give you. It's helpful to me because it's an action I can do. Yeah. I have like so much trouble receiving advice where I'm like, I don't know what to do with that. If someone's like, believe that, like, I don't know, the stuff where I don't know what I can, how I can move forward and actually do it. Well, it's funny you're talking about mentors because that's about your show. And I jokingly, but not really jokingly, said to you that Rich Roll's a mentor of mine. I know. Because it's not that, you know, Rich and

I are friendly. We don't see each other that often, but I get so much mentorship from listening to his show. I learned so much about the type of person I want to be and I find it very aspirational. And I'm sure I'm not alone. Otherwise, he wouldn't have the huge success he's had. So I feel like, I don't know if you can call that mentorship. You can. I think mentorship should be able to be direct or indirect, because otherwise, if you can't absorb it like the sun,

if you need to be touching it, that's so inaccessible. You can't guarantee that you can be talking to the people who you look up to, but you can still pretend they're talking to you. Right. I like that. I didn't know if you were specifically focused on mentors who are physically in your life talking to your face. Definitely not. I mean, that's like, that's a dream, but you just just you have to be able to like get what you need for yourself from the world around you even if you can't you know be in the room with them yeah I've

gotten a lot of help with that a lot of a lot of um positive changes in my life have come out of listening to podcasters who I feel are putting a lot of good positive energy out into the world. I was sober curious for a long time and it was one of Rich's guests that kind of put – Rich sent me a specific podcast and he's like, listen to this. And it really helped me change my entire relationship with alcohol because it was what I needed to hear so beautifully articulated. And there's so many examples of that where I hear something and, you know, it's not something my therapist said. It's not something a friend said. It's rich having the expert on this specific topic on to articulate it in a very conversational, layman-friendly way. And it just lands. You know what's interesting is one of the things that I remember as a 14-year-old most striking me about Garden State

was your ability in that film to capture that there aren't words for everything. You are very selective about when you use dialogue and about how you use things besides dialogue to show how people feel, right? And at that age, like, we don't have all the words. We don't know all the words. We don't, we feel things that we don't know all the words we don't we feel things that we don't know the words for yet and um it's it's so interesting to hear you talk about now like hearing words that like you that's that click for you with these podcasts yeah do you think that the podcasts are affecting you because people find words for things that you don't have words for. Yes, I think that's true. I think that I have a feeling and I feel alone in having that feeling. Yeah. And then very articulate people are saying,

hey, you're not alone. A lot of people are dealing with this. And interestingly, here's some information that you would never have known because you're not going to read the book. You're not going to take the college class. Here's a very charming person to break it down in a conversational way, which is really new to my world. And I know podcasting in general is new to earth,

but I find it, I go on a hike or I'm driving in my car and this stuff really lands in powerful and in actionable ways for me. And I hear people and I go, I want to live like that. I want to be that kind of person. Yeah. And it's fun to be interested in people, right? Like it's fun to be like people have something to offer people. Yeah. There's a quote I heard once that was, if you want to be interesting, be interested. That's what I took one advertising class in grad school and they said, be interesting and interested. That was like the thing. But what

you said is better. I like the one I heard better. I like yours better. If you want to be interesting, I like the one I heard better. I like yours better, and I'm going to update mine. If you want to be interesting, be interested. Yeah, that's good. Because so many people, when you're talking to them, aren't listening. They're scanning. This happens all the time, I'm sure, to you, where you're talking to someone, and you can feel that they're scanning your story for something that's happened in their life that's relevant that they can then take over

the conversation and share well related to that someone told me that you can't have like a connected conversation with someone if you only ask questions like if you never offer your perspective or if you only offer your perspective so if you only do what you just said, because then you're not, there's not like a, you're not really playing tennis with them. It's a dance, but my father used to, I remember my father used to always be someone who would be like, tell me more about that.

That's so interesting. And so your mother, you know, he would lean in and be so interested in people. He did that. He definitely did that. And I find it so refreshing when people do that because we're used to someone like, you tell me an anecdote about your mom and then I go, my mom, she da-da-da-da-da-da. I'm less like people I find are less likely to be like, so your mom, tell me more about that.

And what was that like? I mean, it's just something you notice. And when you're aware of it, you see like while you're telling your story, you'd be like, oh, I can see their eyes. They're scanning for their related anecdote. And then they're going to pivot to their story. And we're not going to talk about what I just shared. story. And we're not going to talk about what I just shared. I'm very aware when the rare thing happens that you're in a conversation and the person leans in to ask more questions about what you just said and doesn't pivot to their opinions, perspective, truths, history about that topic.

Thank you so much, Zach. I'm super grateful. Thank you. You're incredible. You're an inspiration. And I can't wait for you to solve my shin splint issue. We're going to solve it. It's the most classic textbook, adorable thing to feel as a aspiring hiker jogger that you are. Yeah, I don't want to run. I can't run like you. But I would like to be able to hike multiple days in a row without going out on my shins. Oh, that's very possible.

You should be able, you should see yourself, you should believe that you're somebody who will be able to hike every day. Do I need to put that cool tape on my shins? No, you don't. That tape is like... I just want to thought I might look cool if I put that on. You can. I see you runners with all that fancy tape.

The KT tape. This episode brought to you by... This episode is brought to you by KT tape. Cheers to Zach. Which I'm going to put all over my shins, even if it's wrong. Oh my God. You're so honest and forthcoming.

And thank you for helping me work through a few things. Because there's sometimes where I'm like, I see something in my brain because I'll go from like, I'll go from like story to medical, you know what I mean,

in my brain and you're very patient with me. I think you're a natural. I think this was the best episode we've done so far. Yes, it was our best episode. It was our best episode. It was our best conversation.

Are we done? Yeah, we're done. If you're enjoying Mentor Buff mentor buffet follow voicing change for more inspirational and truly life-affirming content from shows like soul boom the proof feel better live more and the ritual podcast just go to voicing change.media that's voicing change.media for a beautiful selection of productive and positive shows. You are listening to this podcast because you care about improving your health and your well-being. But this quest is incomplete if you have yet to add my friend Dr. Rangan Chatterjee's Feel Better, Live More podcast into your listening quiver.

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at voicingchange.media. That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com, where you can find the entire podcast archive, as well as podcast merch, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change in the Plant Power Way, as well as the Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com.

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Plants. Namaste.