The Rich Roll Podcast - Jason Wachob On How To Build A Life, Not A Resumé

Episode Date: February 29, 2016

Intellectually, we all know that true happiness is not a function of material status. Nonetheless, we all catch ourselves repeating the mantra, if I only had X, then I would be happy. Nonsense. Not only can you be happy now, it's your birthright. Because the good life isn't about your bank account, it's about your lifestyle. And lifestyle is a choice. This is the subject of my wellness entrepreneur friend Jason Wachob's new book, Wellth: How I Learned To Build A Life, Not A Resumé*, which hits bookstores everywhere March 1. In addition to being a beautiful personal memoir, its about how to cultivate a lifestyle where happiness is attainable, health is paramount, work is purposeful, friendships are deep and plentiful, and daily living is about abundance and joy. But how? By redefining what it means to live successfully based upon the non-financial currency of wellbeing. As co-founder and CEO of MindBodyGreen.com, the internet's biggest online destination for all things wellness, Jason is one of the movement's most prominent, leading voices. But Jason himself was not always well. After a successful basketball career at Columbia University, he took his competitive spirit to Wall Street. Workaholism, stress and poor lifestyle habits rewarded his bank account and lionized his caricature on the walls of the famous Palm steakhouse. But happiness, personal satisfaction and well-being eluded him. Jason's faced-paced, sedentary lifestyle led to chronic back pain every surgeon said could not be resolved short of surgery. Against medical advice, Jason instead began to explore yoga, which miraculously resolved his persistent, painful condition. Amazed by the body's ability to heal itself when treated properly led to an interest in exploring other aspects of wellness, including diet, mindfulness and sustainability. The lights went on, sparking his innate entrepreneurial flair. MindBodyGreen was born, and the rest is history. I have been great friends with Jason and his wife Colleen for over six years. We have collaborated beautifully on a number of projects. And I have a sense of personal pride that we have both grown so much since our initial meeting back in 2008. He was one of my very first guests on the podcast, and today's conversation picks up where RRP 32 leaves off. Specific topics covered include: * Jason's personal journey with wellness * healing through food and lifestyle * the genesis of MBG and other content providers * how he turned MBG into a premier lifestyle media brand with 10-15 million uniques per month * how he balances start up CEO duties with personal wellness * Jason's morning routine * Jason's business & wellness mentors * current trends in wellness * the importance of practicing mindfulness * misconceptions about soul mates * why he decided to write a book * how Wellth is accessible to all * advice for entrepreneurs * and why you should always think three moves ahead I love this guy and have tremendous respect for his mission, what he has built and how he lives his life on a daily basis. Enjoy the conversation. Peace + Plants, Rich

It's like focusing on small, you know, I believe in the power of small wins. Whatever you're looking to do, you're improving your relationship, your diet, work, you know, focus on little things, win and move from there. That's Jason Wachub, and this is the Rich Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey, everybody. Greetings. My name is Rich Roll. I am your host. This is The Rich Roll Podcast, where each week I sit down with a thought leader, a paradigm-breaking mind or personality across all categories of health, wellness, diet, nutrition, fitness, entrepreneurship, All categories of health, wellness, diet, nutrition, fitness, entrepreneurship, in the case of today's guest, mindfulness, spirituality, meditation.

What else? Creativity, artistry. You get the idea, right? I don't know why I always introduce it this way. You guys have been tuning in for a while. You know the deal. This is just for the new listeners, I suppose. Anyway, thank you so much for tuning in today.

I greatly appreciate it. Thanks for sharing the show on social media. And of course, huge shout out of thanks to everybody who has made a habit of always using the Amazon banner ad at richroll.com for all your Amazon purchases. It really does help us out a lot. And I'm extremely grateful to those of you out there who have made a practice of doing this. It's been huge. So I appreciate that you can find the banner ad on any of the podcast episode pages. It's right there. Impossible to miss. So I got my buddy, Jason walk up on the show today. I love this guy. He is an entrepreneur. He is the co founder and CEO of mindbodygreen.com, which is the internet's biggest online wellness destination. And he's also the author of a new book that comes out this week. It's called Wealth, but it's spelled differently.

It's W-E-L-L-T-H. There's the spin. Did you catch that right? I got a lot more I want to say about Jason in a second, but first. so jason and his wife colleen have been really good friends of ours since about 2009 i think not that long after jason founded mindbodygreen.com which really started as an online portal to aggregate user-generated blog content around all things wellness we began collaborating on stuff when MindBodyGreen was just Jason typing away in his apartment. And what's really cool is that MindBodyGreen has now

grown into this full-blown, well-established lifestyle media brand that garners about 10 to 15 million unique visitors a month, which is enormous. All the content is focused on mental, physical, emotional, and environmental self and global improvement. And I think what's really cool about this narrative is that Jason and I have kind of grown together. I first started blogging on mindbodygreen.com when nobody knew who I was long before my first book. And to see what he's done with this company and kind of my own personal trajectory, it's really neat that we're still so connected. In fact, Julie and I just launched our third online course in conjunction with MindBodyGreen. It's called The Ultimate Guide to Conscious Relationships. I'm really excited about that. I think it's our best course yet. They just keep

getting better. I'll put a link to the course in the show notes. I think it's on sale for like 30% off through the next couple of days or something like that. In any event, Jason was also one of my very first guests on the podcast. That was episode 32, which is amazing. That was almost three years ago at this point. So we were due for another chat picking up where we last left off to talk about his own journey with wellness, his path from Wall Street trader, his face forever memorialized on the wall at the Palm State House, to how he healed his chronic back pain through yoga, diet, and lifestyle, and how all of this fueled his decision to start mindbodygreen.com. his personal entrepreneurial journey, what motivated him to become a startup entrepreneur,

and how he has made an indelible mark on the new media scene with his Dumbo Brooklyn-based startup. We talk about what it took to blow through the glass ceiling on growth and scale his business to the level it enjoys now, eclipsing expectations of what a web-based, health-oriented content provider can and should be. We talk about how, as this ambassador of wellness, he balances focus on his own wellness against the pressures of being a successful CEO. We talk about current trends in wellness, plus tons of entrepreneurial advice. And of course, we talk about his new book, Wealth. It's his first book. It comes out March 1st. And it's all about why the good life, quote unquote, the good life, is no longer just about the material and is more about lifestyle. The book is about redefining what it means to live successfully. And it offers readers this sort of new life currency to build on, a non-financial currency based on well-being. And it's about how

to cultivate a lifestyle where happiness is attainable, health is paramount, work is purposeful, friendships are deep and plentiful, and daily living is about abundance and joy. I love this guy. I love his book. I've got so much respect for what he has built, his mission, and just how he lives and prioritizes his life. So let's talk to him. It's a god awful small affair to the girl with the mousy hair. So this is called The Live Room? The Live Room. Eat, move, breathe.

Eat, move, eat move live breathe love podcast saw that we got the pictures remember the concert revitalized yeah yeah yeah it's cool it's really cool it's quite amazing um off mic just before we started we were talking about how uh you did the podcast back in the day og style like in the very beginning i don't I don't know what episode it was, but it was really early on, right? It was early. Yeah, I shared it again recently. I can't remember. So, I knew it was like 50 or 60 or something like that.

And maybe even earlier than that. And we did it in the kitchen of your apartment right up the street here. And MindBodyGreen had really developed quite a bit at that point. You were already getting, I mean, that was like two years ago, maybe. Longer than that. Was it longer than that? Yeah. Wow.

But I remember, I mean, I haven't gone back and listened to that podcast, but my recollection is that a lot of what we talked about had to do with the explosive growth of the company and how you kept breaking the glass ceiling on kind of traffic numbers and what the industry was telling you would be possible for a wellness website. And at the time, you were still in an office space that was literally the size of this, probably smaller than the room we're in right now, with all of your employees sitting at one table. And I think there were like, I don't know, eight people or something like that at the time. And I remember being amazed that the site could have such a profound impact on the world with just these eight people sitting at one table.

They were all very big. Yeah. Well, you're the biggest, right? How tall are you? Six, five? Six, seven. Six, seven. Yeah.

I mean, I don't know. It's amazing. Yeah. You still tower over everybody. But now we're in your brand new offices. It's extraordinary, man. How big is this place? 10,000 square feet. That's amazing. It's amazing. It's just a couple of streets over from your former office in Dumbo, Brooklyn. Incredibly beautiful loft space. You gave me a tour, I think it was the weekend before you moved in, where it was still getting built out.

And now to walk in here and to see everybody working, I mean, it's incredible what you've built, man. Thank you. We're still trying. Still a long way to go. I know. So what is the current state of affairs with MindBodyGreen? The current state of the union?

So we're about 30 people now, up from eight. I went back, I looked. So we talked in May of 2013. Oh, it was that. Almost three years ago. Yeah. So we're about 30 people now. We hadn't launched the class business back then.

Right. So now we've got a robust class business. We have great courses with you there, obviously, you and Julie. Continuing to build out content we we launched our revitalize event which is a lot of fun and great and you know just uh still a long way to go explain the revitalize event a little bit sure so the revitalize event started two years ago we did two we did uh then two years running we're coming up on our third year uh it was this idea that you know mindbody green is built on community and we

meet all these amazing people from all different walks of life, whether they're, you know, best selling authors, athletes, actors, musicians, and having been to a lot of events, you know, kept on thinking, like, we know all these amazing people, like, wouldn't it be great if we got them all together? You know, wellness tends to be a small insular world i always think the magic happens when you pull someone from you know this profession who doesn't know this person and you know you pull an actor and then an athlete and they never and a musician or someone interesting and they've never met before and next thing you know they're you know magic happens and so that was the Revitalize, to bring amazing people together and do content and live stream it and bring it to the world and just create an amazing experience.

Yeah. And so you've done two of these. Yes. And I had the great privilege, Julie and I had the great privilege of attending both of those. And they have been amazing. I think for me, the biggest impact of those events has just been getting to know so many of these people in

the space that you know i've read i've read their work i've seen their video like i know who they are but i didn't know them personally and to be able to spend a couple days in a really intimate setting really getting to know them you know outside of the rubric of what they do on a daily basis um creates an environment that allows you to bond with these people. And like, I've become friends with a lot of these people as a result. It's a revitalize is like they come to revitalize. Next thing you know,

they're at your house. There's Leslie. True. They're a richest house. They're probably not leaving. Yeah. They've both been over. And now,

well now Chris from grizzly bear from this past year, he's so cool. Chris Taylor. Yeah. For those that are listening, he's a member of the band grizzly Bear from this past year. He's so cool. Chris Taylor. Yeah. For those that are listening, he's a member of the band Grizzly Bear. And he's taken an interest in my boys and their band and their music. That's awesome. And so he's not officially producing their album, but he's mentoring them.

He's really giving them feedback. And he came to our house and he helped set up the analog studio and told them how to do it right. And now Tyler is basically working for him a couple of days a week. That's awesome. I didn't know that. He's such a sweet guy. I love it. That's when the magic happens.

Right. So, and that's because of you. So thank you for that. I thank you on behalf of Analema. I love it. I love it. So it's been cool. But yeah, why don't we, why don't we take it back a little bit because it was three years ago almost.

We always need a superhero origin story. And I think it's apropos to your book, right? Because it's a big part of your book and the narrative that's woven through wealth. So take us back a little bit and explain how you went from collegiate basketball player to impresario of wellness, kind of lording over this mind, body, green empire. Sure. So it's been a ride. It's been a zigzagging path. 41 now. So been at this for a while.

As you mentioned, I played basketball at Columbia, then was an equities trader for five years. You know, I think looking back, this was the late 90s. I think most people, you know, at Columbia where I went to college, you know, they either worked on Wall Street or if they had decent grades, maybe they went to law school or if they had an interest in science or medicine, they became a doctor or maybe some people became consultants and that was it that was it you know i mean it's so different now like the whole world of possibilities of the things that you can you can do yeah uh it's just so i remember going to like the recruiting office at stanford and like looking at brochures for like boston consulting group and i, well, I don't even know what that is,

but maybe I should interview with that. You know, like. A nice pamphlet. It just seemed, yeah, like there was no way of like finding out about anything beyond like what the obvious things, the obvious career paths are. Yep. So it didn't really give much thought to it. You know, it didn't come from money.

And so, you know, I definitely wanted to make money. And everyone I knew was doing well who graduated was on wall street so i said that was a you know this seems like a good idea you know i was an athlete so i liked the idea of trading it was competitive it was a game every day you know uh so became a trader uh and then i think you know learn pretty quickly uh that you know i i thought that money would buy you happiness and found out very quickly it didn't and then sort of left for this entrepreneurial journey which took a while right and it was preceded by another entrepreneurial journey right you were in the organic cookie business yes it was in that after trading you know and it's funny you know running that

company uh you know i learned a lot about you know i always say mind body green you know true health is is mind body green it's one word not three um and i learned a lot about the the green part uh through the cookie company through organics you know pesticides toxins the connection to nature why that's important i mean what did you specifically learn like in the in the the manufacturing process of trying to produce an organic product, you realize what has to go into that. Well, just like basic things were organic. What does this really mean? Well, there's different variations. There's USDA certified.

There's made with organic ingredients. I quickly learned that the word natural meant nothing. It's like, what do you mean, natural? It doesn't mean anything. Anything can be natural. So I really got educated about food and nutrition. And I think back then then my idea of health was was largely around vanity if you look in the mirror you you were great and uh my diet consisted

of uh steak and martinis you know no carbs well it's six seven you know you're not getting fat right so you could i can carry it better right right right right, right. But, you know, so all that wasn't the solution to health. And it was also stressed out of my mind from flying and raising money at the worst time. And, you know, 6'7", flew over almost 150,000 miles domestic. So what happened was I had an old basketball injury in my lower back, which is exacerbated by stress. And I had two extruded discs pressing on my sciatic nerve, excating pain couldn't walk everyone said needed back surgery and one guy said you know yoga might help and started practicing yoga started looking at things like stress sleep nutrition the environment things like eating more plants inflammation made a lot of changes in my

life and then completely healed so that's how a lot of ways MindBodyGreen was born. So your back is completely good now. I'm fine. Never had surgery. Yeah, that's amazing. That's amazing. Like solving that equation of food and lifestyle, you know, the caliber of your diet and how you move your body and what that produces in your life. It's just not something that's taught that we're

taught you know in fact we're taught the opposite yep and you have to almost experience it yourself to have this revelatory moment oh yeah saying oh my goodness and stress what i eat actually makes a difference it's all connected you know just the idea you know one of the things also you know money was very tight at the time and you know started to read about you know new age things like the chakras and saw that like lower back pain was associated with money worries and all of a sudden they're like whoa this completely makes sense here yeah and and meanwhile all your wall street buddies are fleeing for the hills like jason's lost the thread right they've all come back have they yeah well yeah because because it's that age where all that stuff starts to and you kind of have to start paying attention to it yeah and so mine what was the genesis of

you know starting mind body green what was the core idea and how did that begin sure so it quickly occurred to me that everyone had health wrong you know most print magazines were about vanity and weight loss and you know i quickly learned that was not real health. And the web was dominated by people Googling for symptoms and then freaking out, running to the emergency room. I was like, wait, you know, this is more nuanced. It's this blend of mental, physical, spiritual, emotional, environmental well-being. It's this lifestyle. Mind, body, green.

No one's talking about this. And then ran with it you know started with a you know found my my two co-founders tim and carver they worked nights and weekends got colleen my wife involved and i went all in and did one blog post a day colleen you know discovered you and stanford magazine colleen's like i want to interview this guy i'm like ah it's just another stanford swimmer i met these guys she's like no this guy. I'm like, ah, it's just another Stanford swimmer. I've met these guys. She's like, no, this guy's cool. Well, how long had MindBodyGreen been around before? Just a couple years.

Yeah, it was brand new. I've known you for like six years now, like 2010 or 2011. You were in your apartment doing this? Yeah, every day. And the other guys had full-time jobs too, right? No, they went nights and weekends. And for three years i didn't pay myself at a very i'll emphasize understanding life yeah to go in and do it you

know it's something i talk about the book like i think when you're passionate about something you know and i do think goals and deadlines are important but i always say like sometimes you're just gonna say like i don't know when i don't know how but you know you gotta make the leap yeah when it feels gonna happen and this is what I would do. It's not a cliche. Like this is what I would do if I was not getting paid anything. Right. And I literally did it.

No, I remember pretty clearly. I think it was Colleen initially who reached out to me and I was checking out the site and I was like, wow, this is pretty cool there. I didn't, I was like, I don't think there's anything else like this. Like it would be cool to write for these guys. And I think whatever the first thing was that got published from me or maybe Colleen wrote it, I don't even remember specifically. Did the interview. Yeah, we did the interview.

And it got like crazy traction. Why every guy should do yoga? Why ask me to do yoga? Was that the first thing? One of them or the other? Yeah. I was like, this is insane. How is he getting all this traffic?

Like his SEO is unbelievable. Like I don't know what he's doing in his bedroom but it's working neither did i i don't need to blog anywhere else i'm just if i'm going to blog outside of my own website i'll do it with mind body green and that was the beginning of our relationship yeah and you've blown up and grown and you know what julie and i are doing has grown and it's been a beautiful thing to kind of walk this path together that's been so personally fulfilling and rewarding it's like there are people like you and julie and tara styles and dana like i could go on and on like people who i've literally met from 2010 we were both starting out and both trying to figure it out and to see everyone grow together has just kind of been awesome and fun yeah and and you really hit, I mean, timing was obviously big too.

I mean, you had the foresight to see that this was something important and that there was a market for this that didn't quite exist. And the culture has kind of shifted to accommodate that in a really magical way. I mean, you've played a part in influencing culture because of what you do. I mean, you've played a part in influencing culture because of what you do, but I think there are seismic, tectonic plates that shift it at the same time to make this all possible. Absolutely. Yeah. So, I mean, what do you think, what were the confluence of events, you think, that made all of this kind of zeitgeist-y right now? A couple things uh i think god you know the success of whole foods market the success of organic uh the growth of yoga the explosion of juice bars uh you know and i think also uh

by the way wait i'm gonna stick a pin in that because i went to joe and the juice the other day have you been to that place in Manhattan? Oh, yes. I got coffee there, though. I was like, this is the craziest juice bar I've ever been in Soho. It's like, you go in, it's like a nightclub happening in there. Like the most beautiful people you've ever seen and they're cranking music and everybody's dancing. I'm like, I just want to get a green juice.

Yep. And it made me reflect on exactly what you just said, which is like, wow, it's come a long way. Well, there's that. And I think also this idea that specifically with millennials, with the younger generation, people are looking for meaning, purpose, and significance in their life. And they get it.

It's all connected. Mind, body, and green. There's something happening. And then on the media side, the business side, I think it's also this has been almost the greatest window ever to create a media company. I think that window is actually closing.

And if you're in, you're in, so to speak. Why do you think it's closing? Facebook. Facebook, when we grew from 2 million to a high of 15 million. 15 million uniques a month.

Yeah, now we're at 10, which is great. Facebook represented almost 70% of our traffic. Oh, wow. Now we're between 10 and 12, and Facebook is down to 30%. You saw Upworthy was the fastest growing website of all time. It went from 10 to 90. Guess where it's at today? I don't know.

Where? 11. Wow. So how does that, I mean, what is the mechanics of that? Because Facebook is stealing those eyeballs away from these other sites. Well, it's a couple of things. I think, you know, Facebook happened. And, you know, who created Facebook?

If you think about it, it's people sharing content. Who are the people, the types of people that share the most content? Publishers. it's people sharing content who are the people the types of people that share the most content publishers and so i think facebook was very friendly with publishers and it just sort of happened and then you know you've got a supply issue where there's people keep on pushing content you can't crowd the feed so you just have to keep on cutting back uh it'll never completely go away for publishers uh because facebook relies on publishers for content right but the chokehold that they've put on on publishers being actually able to access the

people that are following them on facebook you have to pay you have to pay for those eyeballs you do you do uh which is a you know i i get it uh but i think that was you know within media i think there are always windows in time where it's very easy to grow. Like before that, it was Google with search. Where like your company is like demand media, live strong, grow really, really fast, really quick. And like window closed, boom. Facebook happened. I don't know what the next one is.

Is demand even around anymore? They are. They are. But, you know, I think their time has passed. So I think that happened and i think we we've survived it and thrived and we've got a strong brand and um but i think that happened with media i don't know i don't think there are any vehicles out there right now to really grow right but in in the early days are kind of on the trajectory upwards of the company

um i remember you telling me that you, sort of quote unquote industry experts would tell you, well, a wellness site is going to tap out at a million uniques a month or something like that. And you would consistently trump that. Yes. Oh, yeah. The audience is small. There are no advertisers.

Is there really an appetite for this? I hear that all the time. Now I don't hear that so much right a little bit but and i think that excuse me the other thing that i've noticed just you know knowing you as long as i have and kind of watching how you've managed the growth of this company is i think you've been really smart like you you could have blown it out a lot earlier like Like you could have moved into this office space a couple of years ago, probably based on your advertising revenue. Um, and you really kept it, you know, you, you really waited for your moment and allowed organic growth to kind of dictate the steps forward. And you were patient, you know, where there was a lot of

money flying around and people probably telling you you know on the investment side oh we could do this we could do that and you resisting that temptation yeah for the for the sake of you know the long haul yep so when you look back on that you must you must feel pride at that right because i'm sure a lot of other people flamed out and spent all their money i've seen a lot of people come come and go in the six years and it'll continue to happen. You know, I think that's the challenge of running a socially responsible company. It's growth versus,

you know, trust and brand and community. And it's, it's finding a balance. I do think there is a balance, but it's delicate and you have to know your brand and trust is everything. So there was a great saying, it's like a trust takes,

takes years to build seconds to to lose, and a lifetime to rebuild, regain. Yeah, for sure. And as a CEO, how has your role changed and shifted? How have you grown into somebody who has to now manage a lot of people whereas previously it was just you know you were sort of making the shots in your bedroom i'm sure there's been growing pains and what are those challenges been and how do you um you know reconcile those decisions that you have to make against the core mission statement sure of mind body green and making sure that it stays true to what you want it to be sure it's a balance you know i think as you grow bigger and you become more successful i don't think your problems go

away i just think they change so like you're constantly when you're looking to grow a company and your ceo you're constantly you know looking at well this is what we're this is where we want to go tomorrow this is what we can do and uh you know once you get there then it changes again and it will continue to change and i think it's about evolving and uh and adapting and and realizing what you're strong at what you're weak at and trying to improve as you go uh because i think you have different problems at different stages but you never get to a point where it's we get to this headcount or this revenue and your problems are over. Like, that does not exist. Right. What are the things that you didn't foresee having to kind of tackle

and deal with? Sure. You know, I think culture hiring is really, really hard. I think we've gotten quite good at it, but you know, we're a mission driven company, not mission. You know, everyone who walks in the door or interviews says they're passionate about the mission, but what that means to them means sometimes something very different than how I view that. Right. And so, uh, you know, and I think something too, in wellness where people say they're passionate about wellness and they want to work here, like, well, that doesn't mean they have the skillset to actually function. It doesn't mean you can leave for three hours in the middle of the day and do yoga every day like we believe in balance but we still work hard uh so that's been a focus like seeing you know what what types of people like really succeed here people get the mission

and work hard and we've like identified qualities and uh and then culture like i touched on that like what you know culture is everything you know uh culture is very easy when you've got a group of people sitting around a table but when you have direct reports and they have reports and they have reports you know i believe a strong culture uh can you know get through anything can achieve incredible things so it's like how do you get everyone in sync so that's something where right so how do you do that like do you have specific strategies that you employ to try to cultivate the a culture where everybody's in sync i think you know it's a work in progress i think it starts with hiring first and foremost like finding people

who are cultural who are fit culturally and really defining that and really having a rigorous hiring process uh i think that's like a huge first step when you don't have it just becomes very difficult when you don't have the right people and you know i think i think you know it's holding people accountable it's having a good dialogue it's it's being honest it's being open and you know it's also finding subtle ways to communicate like the values of the company that doesn't you know i think it's very easy like we've got you've seen the office we've got quotes on the wall we've got this great quote mural from our first office we got a great quote from you and

julian there but like it's one thing to have these quotes on the wall. It's another thing, what does that look like in the office place? How do you actually live that and embody that and practice that in the principles of business in the workplace? So it's really getting people to try to embrace that. And then how does that affect your everyday communication, your everyday interaction? What does that look like?

It's one thing to just put something on the wall next thing to actually live it right but the architecture of the space really um kind of channels that i mean you have your you have your meditation room and you have your you know what is the other one the restroom and you have like we got we got the what's it what are the various names eat move, move, live, breathe, love. Each is a mind, body, green pillar. So breathe is the meditation and rest. And everybody who works here, nobody has their own office. Everybody's sitting out in tables in the main room, not even you. And I think that, you know, says a lot about management style by saying, no, I'm not going to go cloister myself in a corner office and shut the door.

Like you're sitting out there with everybody else. Yeah. And I think, you know, there's a great book how google works with with uh eric schmidt wrote and he talks about you know that seating arrangement definitely fosters an environment of you know creativity and collaboration and ideas flow it's like great ideas don't happen if you're walled off it's those moments of every day you know communication and so that's something we believe in and we see it like it's it's stuff happens that's something we believe in. And we see it. Stuff happens that's great when you're in the mix and you're communicating.

Stuff like that. When people work remote and they're not, it just stuff gets lost. Right, right, right. Are there any particular business leaders out there that you look to for mentorship or you're trying to emulate? Like that guy gets it. Like I want, I want my company to look like that or I want to adopt the style of this CEO.

That's a good question. You know, I think it's like bits and pieces of people here and there. I'd love to find someone if there are any listeners out there, like it's something I've looked at. I'm like, I'd love to get like a, you know,

executive coach or a mentor or someone, you you know for what we're trying to do i you know but i haven't really found maybe it's a listener but i think there are you know ceos i admire who i don't know personally uh you know i think john mackie you know is polarizing but i think there are some incredible things he was able to build with Whole Foods Market. I think Chip Wilson, another really polarizing guy with Lululemon, was able to build an incredibly strong culture there. Those are two that come to mind. Another polarizing one, Martha Stewart. You know, in a lot of ways, I think she was a pioneer.

It's like if I look to people who really lived my body green 20 years ago to some degree, I think she did. I'm picking all these polarizing. So I don't know if any of these people I would say are the perfect fit for me and my style. Bits and pieces. Yeah, I think there are a lot of people out there who I sort of admire. Yeah. And looking back over the past couple of years, have you made mistakes that you kick yourself and say,

I wish I hadn't done that? Or something I'd learned from? No? I learn from stuff all the time. But I guess my attitude is you make a mistake, you own it, you learn from it, you go. Otherwise, if it gets caught too much in the rearview mirror, you can just never move forward. Right. Your job is essentially to craft and cultivate the macro vision for the company, obviously a CEO.

And I think it would have been easy to just continue on this path of user-generated blog posts and keep it at that and try to drive as much traffic as you can and get the best CPM from your advertisers and all that kind of thing. But you really have kind of pushed the envelope and and have tried to be uh forward thinking and in where in the direction that the company is heading like you did these online courses like nobody was doing that and at first like we were i was one of the first one yeah the first ones i think beginning i don't know how that's gonna work but it works pretty well right it's gone really great And now you have tons of these courses.

And, and if you were here in the office, you could walk past these doors that are just to my left right here. And you see this, how the space that still has yet to be developed, that's going to be like a full functioning media studio. Right. Which is fantastic. When are you going to complete work on that? You think hopefully by the summer.

Uh-huh. Yeah. Once that's up. Soundproofing in New York is no that, you think? Hopefully by the summer. Uh-huh. Yeah, once that's up. Soundproofing in New York is no easy feat. Yeah. A lot of engineers. Or you're just like, like the podcast, it's just part of the ambiance. A lot of guys come in and then they bring in more guys.

And as soon as I see more guys, I'm like, oh, God, what's the budget now? There's more guys here with more notepads taking notes. Right. But it's cool because it'll be plug and play and you can just start generating all your own content as if you were you know a network essentially yep you know and i've seen what you've done with revitalize and all the the filmed content that you've created with that and how you repurpose that and share that and you know that's something that's different from just being like a, you know, news site or what have you. So are there any other grand ideas that you're bouncing around in your mind that you're thinking about?

Well, I think about, you know, our mission and what we do. We're here about improving people's lives. And I think the greatest way for people to improve is MindBodyGreen. It's mental, physical, spiritual, emotional, environmental health. Like, that's it. If you want to improve yourself, you just can't do the self-help. You need nutrition. You need movement.

You need all these things. And so, you know people people come to come to us and they and they and they want to improve themselves and we see like a life cycle where it's like you know maybe you come in through yoga like me with back pain and next thing you know you're eating more plants and the next thing you know it's like oh wow we got all these shit toxins in our house and next thing you know you're meditating and so we see that over and over and so you know i think with wellness people want to learn and do and so from a broad perspective what are all the things we can do to help people learn and do and so like classes great thing i read a blog post like this guy

rich roll it seems cool like oh wait i want to do this how do i do it oh well here's rich's course um and so just it's a pretty big umbrella but like thinking of all the things we can do whether it's you know content classes you know products someday events like how can we give people the tools to become their best selves and so that that's the vision is big um which is exciting but there's a lot we can do. Right, right, right. You got to do one thing at a time. Yeah, one thing at a time.

And as somebody who's on the front lines of wellness and is sort of canvassing everything that's going on in the wellness world right now, what are the trends that you're seeing? What is the direction? Where is the focus? Where are people you know interested sure god there's a lot i could talk about here do you read my wellness trends piece it's a good piece no i have oh wait is it the one you did 2016 yeah yeah yeah well there's a couple ones in there i think are super interesting um you know i'll talk about marie kondo like this idea like marie kondo is like the best-selling author of

she's killing it with uh you know the life-changing magic of tidying up and it speaks to this idea of like the home is a sanctuary but like from a spiritual perspective blew up didn't it it's amazing and she's got a follow-up book and you and it's crazy like the idea basically is like clean your shit up and your life gets better. Have you read it? But she's got a spiritual perspective to it. It's like all the things we believe in spiritually. And so this idea of making your home more of a sanctuary is a really powerful idea. And you just see what's grown from that.

And I've seen things like plants. We have over 100 plants in our office. There's something very soothing about plants. And I think there's also something environmentally. They do good for you too to have them in your home. I see things like drilling down succulents, plants are trending in a huge way, like blowing up. I think that's largely driven by instagram um you see things like flotation tanks uh which are kind of scary uh for me

julie just did it the other week uh and i'm scheduled to go like oh really as soon as i get back to la yeah i can't wait to go i would die in it i could get a little bit claustrophobic those things yeah it would be a good challenge for you though to to that that's your hurdle right you know what i mean you're no stranger to meditation i love meditation meditate i meditate every day yeah there's got to be float tanks like companies around here right where you go there's a couple yeah and i think it's this idea too of like what's what's old is new again so like flotation tanks been around for a long forever 25 years uh you know that's exciting you know i think something else i talk about like in

a juice world i think what doug evans is doing with juice arrow is very cool i'm going to i'm going to go see his la operation um next in like the next 10 days whatever he just emailed me yeah yeah explain a little bit about what he's doing because it's it's going to change yeah entire press juice market so doug's awesome doug was one of the founders of organic avenue and left and uh so passionate about what he's just such a passionate guy yeah he's a very unique personality he's i love him very he was like a graffiti artist he's hard he was in the marines like he's a hustler uh so like left organic avenue and then like reappeared in the valley and uh have this idea for this company juicero which is essentially like the carrot coffee concept but for juice you know where you have these little pods and you've got your different flavors of juice and

you know the problem with juice is it's pain in the ass to clean so you solve that problem and you're delivering you know a great product with great fresh ingredients to everyone at scale like juice is also expensive you go to juice bars and the cleaning thing and it's it's a huge idea and it's it's phenomenal yeah not only that i mean my understanding uh the way it was explained to me is that it's also something about how he's packaging these pods um retains the freshness so it's actually healthier more nutrient dense and and and fresher than what you're going to get even when you go to the juice presses or whatever because that produce has been sitting around for a long time absolutely and i think a lot of people don't talk about that and one thing i will say about doug like he is maniacal about

quality like he will not compromise so i have no doubt that whatever he's doing with quality will he it will be the best quality product you get, period. He will not compromise. Right, and he's got all these patents now. And he went to Silicon Valley. He raised a ton of money for this because it's a big idea. And so imagine you can get these pods, you can make your own fresh-pressed juice in your house

without buying tons of produce. There's no cleanup yeah it's actually fresher and you know as healthy if not healthier than what you're going to get at the juice bar it's like a no-brainer it's going to revolutionize the whole thing i love it and if there's a guy who can do it it's doug yeah he's proven it before so yeah it's super interesting that's like and i think that happens it changes juice how long is it going to be do you think before that's at market uh he told me 2016 oh really yeah interesting and that's when things get interesting you know it's like i think with any business or product it's one thing you know he's got the big idea

and then it's okay can you execute yeah right people buy it right well i'm going to get him on the podcast and he can tell us there you go you saw a lot of them. All right. So pod juice makers. What else is going on in wellness? Cryotherapy probably. That's a big thing. You know, I also, something I love that's happening is what I call the sustainable sandwich shop. You know, Mendocino Farms. Have you ever been to that place? Whole Foods actually just invested in them.

There's a couple in LA. Like, so like, you know, sandwiches, simple things. Like people get sandwiches, whether, you you know gluten or no gluten people eat sandwiches so there's a whole crop of sandwich shops uh i think probably led by mendocino farms and this other great one in seattle called homegrown where it's a sandwich shop but but you're you're getting you're getting organic ingredients you're getting you know farm to table produce like it's a different experience like a lower footprint yeah like you're not getting know farm-to-table produce like it's a different experience like a lower footprint yeah like you're not getting like a salami sandwich with or ham and cheese you know

it's a different experience you know lower footprints you know better ingredients organic quality like it's an upgrade it's not subway right right and where do you think things are heading like what's what are we going to be seeing like one year from now, five years from now? Like you must have a feel for trends in a way that most people don't. Sure. In terms of food, I think organic is just we'll keep on going. You know, people say that Whole Foods is struggling a bit because everyone else is coming into organic. So I think Whole Foods will figure it out.

I think ultimately it's a good thing for everyone, organic readily available at a lower price point. The trickier thing with organic is making sure that what that means isn't degraded via regulation. Because it's so politicized now that even now it doesn't quite mean what it meant probably when you were running your cookie company yeah to some degree you know what i mean because there's pressure because it can be monetized and they can upsell organic products so if we can you know downgrade what what is actually entailed and required to get that certification then companies can make money so i think that's a danger that exists that i think is very real yep i agree but i agree i think uh plants are coming back in a big way i think we swung too far too fast and too hard with paleo

and i think it just went way too far uh and i think that's exciting i think there's no denying uh the power of a plant-based diet the truth always prevails jason you know and i still believe you know everyone you gotta do what's right for you but i i just think we things swung way too far and you know next thing you know it's it's fake this fake that and it just turns into crap and then it's you know if you're really so i think that that's a trend um which is exciting and good um you know the power of the mind is something i've been excited about for a while i think science is catching up there with you know concepts like telomere telomeres and stress and how the mind and body are connected um in my own life i've seen that i've said this before but like uh the science of telomeres is the new microbiome yes all that stuff

you know we're we're everything's connected you know a great line from frank litman i remember when i was uh like dealing with some parasite stuff i said like well do you think like stress plays a role and he was like i think it's all connected and he's right of course um so i think like this idea of generally like science catching up to a lot of things you know we've known maybe intuitively is exciting i think herbs holistic health is really happening in a big way which is exciting uh so yeah i i think i just think we're at like this exciting time where all these things that people thought were weird or like science is catching up they work right and and i feel like you know women are much more open to like you know the new ideas or perhaps like something that's that's a little bit more new agey than the typical guy.

And that's the grandest generalization of all time. That's true. I don't want to get in trouble with that. But I think the demographics of your site kind of reflect that. So I'm interested in knowing whether that's changed at all. I know your audience is predominantly women. Is it remained 70-30? I'd like to see more guys get interested. How do you

attract guys and bring them in? I think women are always going to be a little bit ahead, to be honest with you in this. I do think more men are catching up. What we've seen, I think meditation is a big gateway for men. one is its feed is a performance booster it's the language too it's the language that surrounds it like when steven kotler starts talking about flow states yes like guys perk up and suddenly they're paying attention but essentially he's talking about things that you know are were traditionally the purview of the new age yeah right yep so i think I think Wall Street has embraced meditation. You know, Ray Dalio runs Bridgewater, you know, big meditators and performances.

Silicon Valley, of course. Silicon Valley, it's huge. So, you know, people light up, oh, wait, I can perform better, you know, be more creative, less stress, sign me up. So I think that's a big gateway for people for men uh i think nutrition is a big gateway for men i think like you know what's interesting is a lot of men have interviewed at my buddy i always ask everyone interviews like what do you like i'm curious tell me what content you like here a lot of the men we've hired have said the

relationships content really yes That's so interesting. I would have thought it would have been all like, you know, sort of paleo diet kind of stuff. No. Interesting. No. Well, that bodes well for the relationship course that we have coming up. Oh, you guys are going to kill it.

I'm super excited for it. When are we releasing that? I think in a week. Yeah, soon. Yeah. And I was like, should I have said something? No, let's get it up. Let's get it up.

No, Julie and I did an online course for MindBodyGreen called, I don't know what we're calling it yet, but it's all about relationships. I don't know, but I'm buying it. I'm sold. You are? Okay. I'm buying whatever you're selling. Well, when you're CEO of MindBodyGreen, you don't have to buy it. You don't have to buy it, Jason.

That's not true, but. Come on. No, that is interesting, though, that guys would be, yeah, that's, I would not have thought that. Right. It's not true, but, uh, come on. Uh, no, that is interesting though, that, that, that guys would be, yeah, that's, I would not have thought that. No.

Well, I think like, you know, I think men are becoming, you know, more mindful to some degree. I think they're not, maybe not going to scream from the rooftops about what they're reading.

But I, you know, I think, I think more and more men are trying to be more mindful, you know, being more conscious relationships, um, you know, looking for meaning, purpose, and significance. Well, certainly that's a hallmark of the millennial generation.

Yeah, absolutely. Perhaps not so much people that are my age. I think it's – so it's like what I think is interesting, I think millennials get it. Like millennials are almost 30. And then you got men over 40 who are all like, what the fuck am I doing with my life? You know, I got money, I got this, or I got got a wife or an ex-wife or i got this and so i feel like it's starting to happen a little bit there's a gap i think between the 30 and 40 year olds a little bit um but i think i i see it happening more um and i think media has done a good job you know you know we are we do have a little bit of problem

with like the bubble and silicon valley and technology but you know what i think is interesting there is it's you know people are creating things and there is good that comes of that i think previously success was measured purely by money and largely driven by wall street so right and now it's being driven by what, Jason? Well, I think it's definitely in vogue to be an entrepreneur. You know, it's like that's what people do now. Like we said when we graduated from college, it was like we did this, this, or that.

I think now like most people don't want to work at Goldman Sachs. Well, entrepreneurs are the new rock stars. Yes. And this is something that came up in my podcast with gary v like a lot of his messaging is oriented around demystifying the actual day-to-day life of what it means to be a ceo and most people should not do it's like it's a grind it's not sexy it's not flying on private jets it's just like you know working your butt off like you know everyone's a day I would say most people aren't built for it. They're not.

It's hard. That's exactly what he said. Yeah. Most people, I would say, just don't do it. What is the biggest illusion that you think people have about what it means to be a startup entrepreneur? Beyond what we just said. That there's going to be some quick exit or you're just going to get from A to B really fast. You know, I don't think,

I think there have been extremely rare cases in history, but for the most part, like, the idea you start with is not the idea you finish with and you have to be prepared to pivot. Like, you have to be super comfortable with ambiguity and risk. If you're not, forget about it. Because it doesn't even matter. Like, even as even as you grow like i say your problems change uh and you just never have all the information but you guys haven't really pivoted in a substantial way have you but like

we've tweaked things here and there you know in the past year we've really focused on brand and creative and better more original content you, switching more from user-generated, which we still do, and then we add a class business, we do events. Basically, like looking at Facebook purely as a traffic driver to more focusing on emails. You're constantly evolving. You're constantly changing. And so I just think, i put it this way i think i think uh you have to be very

comfortable with ambiguity to succeed and i think you also have to be passionate because at some point or another things will get so hard you'll want to give up right and well if your goal is an ipo or an exit that's not a great goal to have you're right your goal should be building a great company that you love and and that's and that you're in love with. And it's something I talk about in the book, like this idea of like, make sure you're climbing the right ladder. Because a lot of people climb the wrong ladder and they get to the top and achieve, you know, money, success, whatever they're looking for, or maybe an exit.

And then they're like, well, I'm not really happy. Like, is this the right thing? Yeah. And bringing it back to that that notion of the false promise that you know money is going to bring happiness that we all know intellectually isn't true but yet we live our lives as if it is true right it's that weird dissonance yeah there was a great i did an interview with uh on the site with uh kimball musk and i asked him about essentially that that question he had this great line essentially like, your set for happiness will change with the amount of money you make.

So like if you make more, different things you'll adjust. If you make less, you'll adjust. Right. It doesn't matter. Right. Explain who Kimball Musk is to people who might not know. So Kimball Musk is Elon's brother who is also, just take that fact away, the guy is still remarkably successful.

He's on the board of Tesla, Chipotle, who is also, just take that fact away, the guy is still remarkably successful. He's on the board of Tesla, Chipotle, and he's got this restaurant called The Kitchen in Boulder in Denver, which is like my favorite farm-to-table restaurant. He's got a bunch of them. It's just so good. Great vegetables. It's just awesome. And he's also, what's even cooler, he's got this thing called the kitchen community. So like, when he goes to a city,

this is, just doesn't open a restaurant. He's got to do the community center, which essentially teaches kids, like, to become familiar with like gardening and plants and where their food comes from. And so like, he's talk about like,

you know, socially conscious, like he hasn't just put restaurants, like he's got to put the education component first. It's inspirational yeah it's very cool he doesn't have to do that right right right you know what a pain in the ass that i get that do you know him i gotta get him on the podcast i've met him very briefly i i know is uh i met him at this restaurant in chicago but i can introduce you he's phenomenal yeah cool cool

um and thank you for that introduction to marco borges because he was oh he's great too he's such a cool guy. He's a great guy. Yeah. Another super passionate guy. Well, I think this idea of the false promise of money, you know, buying you happiness and exploring that is perhaps the best place to jump off and talk about the book. Sure. Because that's a predominant theme in the book.

You know, what made you want to write a book? And tell us a little bit about what the book is know what made you want to write a book and tell us a little bit about what the book is sure uh so the book is called wealth how i learned to build a life not a resume w-e-l-l-t-h you got that right that's so i'm like why didn't i think of that that's such a great title thank you yeah did you come up with that on your own sort of all on your own just there's no it sounded incredibly condescending as i always say well i always say like there are never any original ideas out there uh i'd seen the word a little bit but really liked it um so went with it um and thought

this will be a word maybe we can get in the lexicon or no one will understand it and it'll be terrible it's great it's really great so it's what they call a prescriptive memoir so a memoir in that i tell a lot of my life story uh in the book and then prescriptive as in you know each chapter i bring an expert to you know provide some actionable tips uh so it's funny about the book it wasn't i had no real desire to write a book i uh wrote a blog post two years a little over two years ago my 39th birthday 39 life lessons i've learned in 39 years did very well went viral something i wrote very quickly just like flowed out that morning of my birthday and just magical and did well um and so a literary agent wrote into the general inbox at mind body

green and said, I read the posts, you know, I, I think if you could expand upon it and turn it into a book, I didn't even reply. I thought like, this isn't a book, it's a blog post. Like I'm not naive. Um, and then a couple of weeks later, she sent a package to the office with a book, another book and a letters essentially, you know, saying the same thing again. And she said said read this

book i think it's similar in structure and this is a great great book so i was traveling the next day and i actually read the book and i was like holy shit i think i can write the book um and then just wrote and wrote and wrote and uh every time i was on a i don't really have a lot of time um but every time i flew that summer i wouldn't do the wi-fi i would just write i wouldn't edit it whatever came out you know from the heart you know typos and all run on sentences and wrote and then uh had like 50 000 words and then work with her to edit down do the proposal and that was it that's great i mean most ceos that write books and it seems like every ceo writes a book yeah you know 95 99 perhaps are all written by ghostwriters yeah no i wrote it i wanted to do it like i just didn't want to be that

guy i do it like yeah i don't want to be that you know it's like it's my story it's my book um it was important to me to do it and you know i also learned the process it's one of those things too it's like if you want to get something done give it to a busy man i just like plowed through it uh did you have to write a proposal also yeah i did the proposal the whole thing i'm like i worked my my agent was great like worked with an editor on it like i needed editing so i did work with an editor uh and and that was it right just got it done Yeah. And how did you approach it? Like, did you have ground rules about like, well, here's what I wanted to be and it changed? Or like, how did you get into the headspace of figuring out what it was you wanted to communicate specifically?

You know, I definitely wanted to, on a macro level, I wanted to create the book that I wish I read 20 years ago. On a macro level, I wanted to create the book that I wish I read 20 years ago. You know, what was the book that I would have loved to have read when I was going through shit on Wall Street or a breakup or what have you? And like when I was living in the self-help section at Barnes and Noble, like searching, you know, I read everything, but it was still lacking like that book. And so that was the book I wanted to write. A lot of it was my personal story and

hopefully is relatable to a lot of people. I think what distinguishes your book, which I guess I haven't said yet. I'm sure I said it in the intro, which I haven't recorded yet, but when people are listening, you did a great job. It's a great book. You should be super proud.

Thank you very much. There's a lot of junky self-help books out there in general. I hate self-help books. Like, I can't stand them for whatever reason. Just manifest it, Rich. But the thing is, you wrote a great book. And I think one of the reasons why it stands out and will stand out and will also stand the test of time is because you allowed yourself to be vulnerable in telling your own story. And I think that's really important in terms of connecting with the audience.

So was that challenging or frightening to open up on that level? A little bit. And, you know, I said to you earlier before we started taping, you inspired me with Finding Ultra. Like, you really put yourself, I'm serious, don't roll your eyes, Rich is rolling his eyes. Like, you put yourself out there. And that was something, you know, like, I could have put a lot more out there. The only person, my mother read it, she was like, why do you share all that? Like, you were a good kid. I'm like, Mom, that's not like, yeah. that's not like yeah uh but you know i a little bit but i thought you know this this is it and i think a lot of the things i share i'll you know i'll be very personal i think you know people can relate to at some level so i thought that was important yeah there's no there's no bluster or chest pumping or anything like or you trying to make yourself look like anything other than who you are. It's innately very human. And I think that that is not only important, I think it's almost necessary in this culture now.

I mean, I say this all the time, I'm going to sound repetitive, but young people have incredibly finely attuned bullshit radar. Right. Because of the culture that we live in that's fueled by the Internet, they can see something that's non-authentic coming from a million miles away. Right. You know what I mean? And so I think it's more important than ever that if you're going to step into doing something like this that you be prepared to really be honest and open. And you did that so i agree thank you

yeah i just can't i'm not one of those people who i can't do it right um so walk us through what we can find in the book so you know the book is not linear uh it starts with uh the e chapter where i talk about uh talk about nutrition and diet. And I go all the way to the close with the Live chapter, which is about dealing with death. How losing my father at age 19 changed me in a big way. And then dealing with the loss of a best friend and other deaths. And living and what death can represent and laughter. And, you know, the book is a journey, you know,

everything from what I've learned in my own healing journey from healing from back pain to recovering from a parasite to nutrition to movement to my entrepreneurial journey, what I've learned about money and jobs and gratitude and relationships is something I talk about too and the idea of soulmates. I think everyone needs to look at soulmates in a different way. What way specifically? Well, in the book I say there's three types of soulmates.

Soulmates are sort of like a mysterious thing. And I think we need to reframe the way we look at them. I say that there's two types of non-romantic soulmates and then, excuse me, two types of romantic soulmates and then a non-romantic soulmate. So I talk about the first type of soulmate is the kind that helps you maybe get from A to B and it's probably the most painful relationship you've had, but we've all had them.

Without them, we wouldn't be who we are today, and they're not the ones that you're meant to be with forever, but you're meant to be with at a very specific time to help push you to where you need to go in your life path. So I talk about a very personal story there, and then I also believe in the idea of the forever soulmate, the one you're supposed to be with. And this notion where I believe when people are meant to be together, I say one and one shouldn't equal one and a half or two. I think one and one equals three. These are the people that don't make you insecure. They make you feel more secure than ever. They bring out the best in you and uh i think they're out there and i also say like i don't think you need people to make you happy i also say that you know you'll never be happy in a relationship if you're not happy with yourself that's so true you know it's over

and over you know it's like when you're ready you're ready yeah i think one of the greatest greatest misconceptions and sources of unhappiness in our country perhaps the world is this idea that another person is going to resolve whatever is making you unhappy in your life and that myth that we talk about this in the online course the myth of like you complete me right and when you're chasing yeah when you're chasing that it's just not going to work out right you know it starts with yourself investing in yourself and and resolving whatever issue is making you unhappy so that you can stand in the light and attract the person that you want to be with because you have to you have to be putting out that energy you have to be the kind of person um that that

person is going to want to be with absolutely you know what i mean otherwise it's a house of cards yep absolutely and i think it's a recipe for disaster and i think at some time or another we've all found ourselves in that uh you know and the third type of soulmate i'd say is a non-romantic soulmate i think these are abundant in our lives or the old friends that appear and reappear the the people we connect with at certain periods of time who really you know help us uh connect with us or honest with us and you know it's this notion that i think soulmates are abundant you know i don't think it's just like this one person like you know i'm running you know like who i'm you know running through the aisles of whole foods in venice looking for my soulmate uh i think they're everywhere and it's this idea

of operating from a place of abundance and not scarcity and uh you know focusing on the blessings we have and there are soulmates everywhere i believe that so how does it work with you and colleen sure especially now that you work together as well as are married and live like a few blocks from here. Sure, sure. Your world is very, your life is very big. Yes. But the geography of your world is very compressed. Yeah.

It's awesome. You know, I talk a lot about Colleen in the book and our relationship and we work together, which is. How long have you guys been together? Shit, seven, wait. Seven years. in the book and our relationship and we work together which is how long you guys been together shit seven wait seven years almost seven years no eight years nine wait no we met we met november of 2007 our first date was november in 2007 so it's almost nine years um so yeah like working together you know we actually i think do it well um we don't sit next to each other that's a big thing we we operate very differently um you know but for us and it's not easy our biggest challenge is we don't shut it off you know we don't have children yet hopefully we'll have children soon um but we're so passionate about

wellness like you know work work and play are one you know it's like we're technically this is work but like you're a great friend so like this is play and we don't go home and just turn it off you know we socialize with our friends who are part of the community and we have classes with them right so you know, something we say a lot is, you know, last work comment, last work comment, just another and another, but we're just so, it's our life. It's so passionate about it. So the greatest gift that you can experience is when your work life, uh, you know, is your play, you know, like when those two things merge, it's just, it's incredible. And I have the gift of being able to experience that.

And, you know, Julie and I work together. We don't work on everything together and we certainly don't sit next to each other all day. That would be disastrous. But there is that blurring of the lines. And I think what it means and what it requires is that you're more conscious of making sure that you carve out time that isn't focused on you know that so that every interaction is not a business meeting right you know what i mean and it's

something it gets difficult yeah it is and we we had something we work on and we're conscious of and uh but you know we also realize it's a blessing to be able to do what we do and totally it's awesome so like the way i look you know all the amazing people we know in our lives and it's just like sometimes i pinch myself right wow this is awesome there was that moment i mean she didn't always work for mind body green though and she made that leap to yeah doing it full time was there trepidation like we're going into new terrain now how are we going to navigate this as a married couple you know not really she was just like i wanted you know she was always helping out it's about time yeah she was helping out on the side and and was

ready and it just worked and you know i talk about in the book like i was harder on her in the beginning i made her an unpaid intern for a couple months to prove herself to everyone because i like did not want the nepotism thing uh-huh so in a lot of ways i think i was definitely she worked so hard i was definitely harder on her because i wanted to prove to everyone because I did not want the nepotism thing. So in a lot of ways, I think I was definitely, she worked so hard, I was definitely harder on her because I wanted to prove to everyone. I proved to my co-founders and everyone on the team because she's not just my wife. She's really smart and she works her ass off

and she can get the job done. But yeah, it just happened and we work well together. I'm taking it personally that she's not here today. I know. Say hi. I know. Well, she's a little under the weather. She's not feeling well.

All right. So, what else in the book? You know, I think we cover, you know, one thing I'll talk about is nutrition a little bit. You know, I'm not a fan of diets per se. I believe in lifestyle. And in the line in the book, which I think you'll appreciate, I said if there was, you know, the best diet book of all time would be a book that no one would buy, and it would be eat vegetables. And that's it.

Right, yeah, one line. I'd actually like to publish that book. Just that one sentence, one line. I'd actually like to publish that book. Just that one sentence, you know. You know, I talk and talk about my thoughts there. You know, I think a big thing where I've gotten a lot of feedback is this idea of a lot of positive feedback is, you know, his career and work. And, you know, how do you what do you do if you're looking to make a change in your life? And, you know, how do you, what do you do if you're looking to make a change in your life? Yeah, let's camp out there a little bit because there are, you know, it is quite an epidemic in America and beyond, I would presume, of people that are stuck in jobs they don't like. You know, I mean, i think that is the greatest you know sort of

difficulty that i think most people are dealing with in a very real way yeah and it's very easy and cavalier to go like chase your passion right or do what you love and right you know put up an instagram quote you know that gets lots of likes that makes you feel all butterflies inside but manifest it right but how do you yeah like for the person that is right stuck you know it's irresponsible to just say well quit your job or you know that's not real you know so like what what is the real trajectory um or or like how can you be of service and help that person um you know make those first initial steps to you know begin to explore perhaps a different way sure so it's exactly what you know, make those first initial steps to, you know, begin to explore

perhaps a different way. Sure. So it's exactly what you said. It's make the initial step. So what I say in the book and I use Colleen as an example is this idea of think three moves ahead. So like very rarely do people just like one day say, I'm done. I want to go over here.

That's my dream job. And that happens. Rarely happens. So this notion of thinking three moves ahead is, you know, think, you know, what is that dream position and what does it look like?

And then come up with some sort of plan. So Colleen is an example, you know, very passionate about health and wellness. She started out in fashion, the retail world, you know, worked at,

worked at, worked at gap at old Navy and banana Republic, but, you know, want to get out of it. But she was sort of like boxed in like oh you're a fashion person so what she did was then take a job at Walmart you know oh Walmart well Walmart's not fashion Walmart's the biggest retailer in the company so people started to see her as a different light oh you work at Walmart whole different thing people are just

fascinated by Walmart what they do you know sustainability something she was a part of there what they were doing was amazing but totally reframed her next job she took was in amazon all of a sudden you're working at the biggest e-commerce player in the country so it's oh wait you're not even fashion you worked in e-com you worked at the biggest retailer in the country and that led her to get a job at organic avenue actually working for Doug Evans. One of the reasons why they hired Colleen, well, she's got all this great merchandising experience and she worked for the biggest retailer in the world and the biggest e-commerce player in the world

and we're a growing brand that works to work on those things. And so that got her to wellness and then to My Body Green. But that couldn't have happened if she just stayed at Gap and said, I want to work in wellness. It wouldn't have happened. So it's a gap and said, I want to work in wellness. It wouldn't have happened. So it's this idea of identifying where you want to go. And you may have to make those three moves. And what I say for a lot of people to do that.

Patience. Yeah, patience. Look at LinkedIn. Look at people who have the job that you want and see their background. See how they got there. And come up with a plan. You've got to take the first step. Very rarely does someone say,

I hate Wall Street. I'm done. I want to work in the juice street or whatever. It doesn't happen. Yeah, and that first step might be going on LinkedIn and searching for people that do something more interesting or something that interests you personally and perhaps sending one of them an email.

Or you may have to take a bit of a pay cut or a title cut. Or a night class. Yeah. Like when I left trading, I was like, shit, I don't have any transferable skills. I'm good at this one thing. But that doesn't mean anything for us. Branded for life at age 23. Yeah.

And I was young. I was 25, 26. I was sort of leaving. But I realized, I need to start over here. And it took 10 years. The entrepreneurial journey, too. It took 10 years. I had things that didn't work, but I learned a lot.

And the cliches are true. You learn more from your failures than your successes. Were you always an entrepreneur? Did you have that spirit in you as a kid yeah i think so like i was always entrepreneurial everything from like selling the cups at keg parties to uh all that you know fun stuff uh and i think something about me i've always had like a very high risk, you know, a high tolerance for risk and ambiguity, like more so than most people. But what I think made me a good trader and just I'm comfortable with a lot of. Right, being comfortable with the arbitrage. Yeah, like I'm comfortable.

It's this idea of it's a blend of like ambiguity and a big way of not knowing. Like and also knowing things will be okay. It's this balance. I think a lot way of not knowing. And also knowing things will be okay. It's this balance I think a lot of people struggle with. It's this idea of knowing things are going to be okay, but you can't just fucking sit around and do nothing too. So it's like you got to push and push and work, but also

have faith and be able to take a step back sometimes and say like, what am I missing here? Like universe, God, whatever. And I think that there's a balance. Well, balance is an interesting subject to explore. You know, the typical startup entrepreneur does not live a very balanced life. Correct. And it would be very easy to be very out of balance. And I have some, you know, sort of iconoclastic opinions about balance in general.

But as somebody who's lording over a wellness company, it would not behoove you to become a workaholic and then stop practicing all the things that you're preaching. Sure. So how do you make sure that you are keeping all of that in check? It's hard. You know, it's something like I've definitely had moments where I'm like all this wellness is making me unwell yeah i know what that's like you know like i'm changing all these people's lives so much time talking about wellness that i'm not well right and you know i it's something i'm mindful of you know it's evolved like there's this great uh there's a quote from like randy zberg. It's something like, choose three, family, friends, sleep, fitness, or your job.

And it's sort of true. It's something I'm mindful of. So for me, it's changed. The days of me going to a public yoga class five days a week, that's over. For me, my yoga practice has evolved to two days a week for 15 minutes at home. What do I do daily now? I do meditation every day for 15 minutes at home what do i do daily now i do meditation every day you know for 20 minutes every day never miss sometimes i get in twice i'll lift weights once a week uh i walk a lot like that's how it's evolved but it's still it's changed and i'm sure

it'll evolve again but it's believe me it's something i think about yeah you know i think a lot of people in wellness too like it it's hard i think people struggle with it when well when wellness becomes your business that's when you know what i mean that that's when it when the wellness itself can become threatened right you know and i've experienced that and you know i'm prone to being very out of balance like i sure i thrive in the the excitement and the energy of going all in on something yeah so whether that's writing a book or staying up all night editing a video or a podcast whatever it is like i can get obsessive yeah and then i'm not taking care of myself but then i justify it by saying yes but the product is forever and when that's done it's out there and then i can you know, I can let that pendulum swing back. And so I give myself a little bit of a wide berth to allow myself to do that

because I do function well when I'm hyper-focused for a short period of time. But I have to be mindful that I'm not out of whack for too long. Yeah, I agree. You know, it's this idea of, you know, you can only, you push so much and then you kind of have to let go. And I think it's like a spiritual approach to working in business, you know. And I think that's a problem I have with a lot of self-help books. It's like a lot of them just preach like just, you know, repeat affirmations or manifest it and things will come. You have to work hard. Right.

But you do have to be able to take a step back and say, I need to let things come to me. I need to take care of me. And then the abundance is there. Right. And I think most people, it's hard. Usually people just push, push, push, or they just sit on the couch and say, you know, I'm ready, you know, bring the money. So I think it's a balance. Right. And there's so many things like if you start to explore like, well, what is the optimal morning routine or how should I live my life as balanced and as healthy as I can throughout the day? And you start to accumulate these tasks, whether it's meditation, yoga, journaling, making sure that you eat every 40 minutes with a little snack,

whatever it is. And then suddenly, like, there's no time for anything else in your actual life other than taking care of those things. So it becomes overwhelming and intimidating. And then you feel bad if you don't do all of them. Yeah, I agree. You know what I mean? And I think that creates a negative spiral.

I agree. I think you got to find out what works for you. And, you know, what's that? It's like the Tim Ferriss quote. Like, you know, the great habit is like the one you keep. Or great practice. Like you got to do it. Or that, yeah.

Like what is the, what's the fitness routine or the diet that I should do? The one that you will actually do. Right. And it's one thing I like talking about. Like I love Blue Zones. I love Dan Buettner, our friend. Like I can, so many people can do that. Right.

Well, he's all about changing your environment so the healthy choice is the easy choice or the convenient choice and that's that's super powerful right but but you know that can be applied to your home or your office and then extrapolating out into communities and things that he's doing with cities yeah it's awesome but like focusing on small you know i believe in the power of small wins whatever you're looking to do or you're improving your relationship your diet work you know focus on little things win and move from there yeah because it's trite and as stupid as it sounds like mountains are moved through those tiny actions it's the little things that you do on a daily basis consistently that actually make the difference and create the change. Like when I look back on, you know,

whether it's Ultraman or writing, whatever it is that I've done, like it's about like little things that I did every single day without fail in, you know, that weren't on Snapchat or publicly announced or anything like that. It's just how you recalibrate your lifestyle to make room for those actions and permit yourself to fail in anonymity that allow you to move forward. So, if you could go back to the beginning of the MindBodyGreen adventure and give yourself a little bit of advice, perhaps advice that's in your new book, I mean, what would you tell yourself? It's going to take a lot longer than you think. But don't tell your wife that. At the time, what did you tell yourself it's going to take a lot longer than you think but don't tell your wife what did you think like what was i would say to colleen like it's gonna be like six months before you just blow it up and make it yeah and it took it took a good three

years uh before i knew like okay we have something here so that was three years you know 2012 was when i said when we knew like okay we got something here in terms of it like this is a real business yeah like this is like something that i'm like that's a hobby right right right like this isn't right and then it's you know so i i think everything is everything takes longer than you think and then sometimes you're surprised i think things when they're when i do think it's true in business and in life and relationships, everything, when things are aligned and you've done the work and everything's in place, boom. That's when big things happen.

Right. All that. But I think it's hard work. All the legwork that leads up to that moment that you can then later chalk up as luck or synchronicity, but which you prepared for. Right. And it's this idea of like, you know, being aligned, you know, spiritually, mentally, all these things. Like when you're aligned, when you're supposed to be, but you generally just don't arrive there. You got to work to get there.

And then I think magic things happen. You align your work know your work and your passion values when you look at other entrepreneurs out there startup ceos you know are there things that they're doing where you're like if they only knew or this is what they're doing wrong or you know what i mean like not in a not in not in an egotistical way but like what have you learned that you think you know would be of value or assistance to somebody who is maybe they're just starting a little mom and pop shop or e-commerce site or something like that to me you have to start with passion

like don't just do anything just for the money you know like i say it's cool to be an entrepreneur yeah like i like money but it's not about the money um you have to be passionate about it because you will give up at some point unless you're someone who just you know there's some people just never give up and that's also can be a bad thing too uh so i think passion is really key uh because you will have that dark night of the soul so to speak as entrepreneur, those sleepless nights. You're like, why am I doing this? But you push through it.

You're passionate about it. And where does spirituality come into this for you and what does that look like? Well, to me, it's this idea, you know, there are definitely bumps and detours and potholes and all those things. It's, you know, having a, I think it really helps to have like a deeper belief in something that like greater than yourself, that like you're on a path and things will be okay uh because it gets you through and

I also think you know at 41 now like you know I've had some life experiences you know whether it was like losing a parent or like things that I thought were falling apart and and you know I think it helps to also go back and say like okay i've sort of seen this thing happen before it's gonna suck but we're gonna persevere and work hard and we're gonna get through so i think like being able to face adversity at a young age uh to have something to draw back on i think helps get you through it and i think having you know i think having a spiritual practice is huge in being an entrepreneur because there are moments when you just don't know you know they happen you know and so having a faith like you're doing the right thing and you're you know you're

true to your mission and your mission larger than you uh what you're supposed to be doing and things will work out like that just helps i think you as an entrepreneur everything's on your shoulders anyway the way of the world you know your employees the company your investor all these things you know the way the world is on your shoulders so the ability to sometimes take a step back and say like there's something bigger than myself that's i'm sort of powerless against not to say i'm just going to sit on the couch and do nothing but like there's something bigger than me that can help or change this like shoulders are feeling maybe a little lighter at the moment i think that's powerful right and that this is happening for a reason beyond your understanding on some level like you didn't you didn't you know craft a universe that

would allow wellness to be a massive sort of market trend right now. Exactly. And all these other sort of factors outside of your control that are dictating the trajectory of this company and your profession and your career. And to be able to go, well, I'm not the ultimate steward of where this is going to go. Absolutely. Find comfort in that and peace and understand that, yeah, there is something bigger going on here. where this is going to go absolutely comfort in that and peace and understand that yeah there is something bigger going on here and yep this is your mission and there's a reason why you're doing this and there's a reason why it's successful some of that is a

result of your self-will and your hard work and some of it is because this is supposed to be happening jason absolutely and i'm fulfilling your universal role as steward of wellness. Absolutely. And I, I think entrepreneurs and CEO, you know, you can get lost in that. We're like, I,

you know, if there's a will, I'm a, you know, I'm an athlete too. It's like, there's a will, I'm a way like that.

That's a long run through it, you know? Uh, but I think distinction between, um, self will and, and relinquishing control. You need both, you know, you can't, you can't just sit around and, self-will and relinquishing control.

You need both. You know, you can't just sit around and manifest it, so to speak. You got to do the work. But at the same time, you have to be able to do something. I think I work on, I think a lot of people struggle with. You know, I think people who are type A's are used to just pushing. Like, there's that ball over there. I'm going to fucking go get it. Right.

And where do you draw that line? You know, of course, perseverance is important and overcoming obstacles are important. But also, if the universe is just throwing, you know, so many obstacles at you, the message, you know, is then like, well, maybe this isn't the right thing. Yeah, and I've faced that with other businesses where, like, you know, I've had moments with businesses that didn't work out where i was like jesus christ like i've done everything here you know it's like you do have to try to knock down doors and knock down doors and then sometimes you're like the door is just not opening or maybe there's this one over here that's what i always look at things like whenever we're you know struggling or trying to do something it's just not happening where you know i take a step back and say like whoa like maybe i'm looking i'm trying to bang down the wrong door

am i not seeing something can i take a step back is there's this door over here the right that i'm just not paying attention to where someone's like you know screaming at me like walk through it uh so it's that it's the ability to like, I think, charge through and make things happen, but also the ability to like take a step back, which is, I think, hard to do, and say like, whoa, am I doing the right thing? Is this thing happening or not happening for a reason? And not overthinking it too, sometimes. Easy to say, hard to do.

And how important is meditation in sort of sharpening that knife of discernment? Sure. It's huge. It's been super valuable to me. To me, it's been game-changing. I think I probably would have really struggled the past couple of years if I didn't have that tool. It's really great to just go away and almost feel like a like a level of fog lift be able to think a little bit clearly uh i think very clearly after some times where it's like a really sharp contrast where it's like whoa i need to do this um it's powerful i think you need you know it's like this idea of you know

as an entrepreneur as a ce, I think any in life, you have to have a level of humility where it's like you got to, like we touched on, you got to realize that there's something else out there guiding you and you got to run with it. But at the same time, you got to work. You got to work. Is there a specific kind of meditation that you practice? So I'll repeat a mantra over and over for 20 minutes

given to you by charlie charlie knowles great meditation course yeah uh and then i'll do like mindful i'll sort of do everything but that's the one i stick with um you know and i always i think a gratitude practice is it's good you know for me like what does that practice look like you know every day i wake up i say thank you a couple of times. Like we have it on our wall. You know, I'm a big fan of Peter Tunney. You know, we've got this great gratitude mural. Huge mural, entire wall, like 10 feet high says gratitude. Yeah, like I think having a gratitude practice is just, is huge.

Whatever that looks like for you. You know, appreciating the people in your life. You know, the ability to walk all these things you know i just you never want to have something taken away before you appreciate it so i just think that's just ingrained in me we got to wrap it up here in a couple minutes but i thought we could kind of close it down with perhaps some imparting words of wisdom for uh you know somebody who's out there who is interested in these ideas you know maybe it's a guy who's not the typical mind body green

reader or somebody who's stuck in a job that's not doing it for them or they're in a relationship that they're not sure how to get out of but but they know it's not quite right. Like, how do you communicate with that person? Well, A, I hope they read the book. I think there's some lessons in there. Check out my Muddy Green, check out Wealth. But, you know, I think it's important for people to know that, you know, anything's possible. You know, when I sort of started over at you know my something else i talk about it like i moved back home at like age 30 and was broke and like felt like a

i say like i felt like a better looking taller george costanza like it started from scratch and took me a long time and i did it and i'm glad i did it and i thought like oh god like should did this five years ago but like now all my friends are ahead of me yeah and like i was ahead of them and they have lives and i'm like i went backwards i'm like what the fuck am i doing and so like it only gets harder and like for 30 or you know one guy i will say i do admire i didn't bill campbell uh bill campbell is this guy so he actually uh he's a columbia alum he went to You know, one guy I will say I do admire, Bill Campbell. Bill Campbell is this guy. So he actually, he's a Columbia alum.

He went to Columbia, he played football, became the Columbia football coach. He was a terrible coach. In his late 30s, I think like 38, he started over and like took a job at like Kodak or an advertising, like started from scratch. 38. He was one of steve jobs closest friends he went parlayed it we're working at apple he's they call him the coach of silicon valley wow he's he was the ceo of intuit he's like the confidant to the google founders like a lot's been written about him but like i looked at that guy like holy shit like bill camp like donated so much money to columbia it's like there's the bill campbell this there's the bill campbell that i met him a few times super

nice guy but like the guy started over in his late 30s and like is incredibly successful so i was like okay like i'm 31 this guy was married with a kid and like starting over like a failure ivy league football coach to this guy today um so you know it's this idea like it's never too late whether you're 40 50 it doesn't matter it's like yeah it's amazing we're in this like social contract where there's these unwritten rules about like how you're supposed to progress through your life and if you venture off that track somehow you're perceived as you know broken goods or you know the sort of self-judgment that comes with that can be debilitating. Yep. And I've seen, and it's an illusion.

Totally. And I think more and more guys are like secretly opening up to it. Like I've had people reach out, I have friends with, you know, and say like, I'm doing this now. Did you know that? Like, don't tell anyone. I'm like, that's awesome. You can tell, you know, and I think, you know, i think more and more people uh you know we're searching for more meaning purpose and significance they see guys like you too you know you have a similar story like you're like i'm doing this and i know and it's not easy but i'm doing it and like it's hard but i'm doing it and you know i just say to everyone like anything's

possible you gotta the first step is believing and often the first step is the hardest step just gotta take it so it's inspiring what you've built here man i commend you it's really impressive and very cool and i love the mission and i'm part of the mission yes and it's been a privilege to grow alongside you on a parallel track and i can't wait to see where you take all this awesome such an honor rich honor, Rich. Thank you so much. Very cool. Thanks for taking the time. The book is called Wealth. It is coming to bookstores everywhere. That's not it. It's right here. How I Learned to Build a Life, Not a Resume. Everybody should definitely check it out. It's incredibly well-written. And there's this great quote on the back cover.

There is. You gave me a top billing. Top billing. Rich Roll. Yes. Should I read You gave me a top billing there. Top billing. Rich Roll. Yes. Should I read it? Health begins – here, I'll read what I wrote. Yeah. Health begins with what's on your plate, but wellness is alchemy, an elusive and delicate ballet of body, mind, and spirit, ever striving for perfect harmony.

Leveraging the wisdom and experience of the world's greatest wellness experts, Wealth is a brilliantly composed, highly engaging memoir and an easy-to-digest primer on exactly how you too can be healthy and happy, live your best life, and thrive. A must-read. And I believe that, man. It really is. So congrats. Very cool. Well, if you're digging on Jason, the best way to track him down is to go to mindbodygreen.com. And you're on all the social media at Jason Walkup on Twitter, Facebook, all the like. Yeah. Anything else? That's it.

We did it, right? Yeah. How do you feel? I feel great. I feel good too. Such an honor. I love the Ritual Podcast. All right, man. Thanks so much. Peace you plants it's about to be rid again as i ask you to focus on fighting in the dance hall oh man look at those cavemen go What did you guys think? He's cool, right? I hope you guys enjoyed that. I love that guy, and I think his book is great, and I'm so proud to share that conversation with you guys. Check out this week's show notes for much more. I got plenty of links

and resources, including, of course, everything that we mentioned during the course of the conversation. For all your plant power and RRP swag and merch, visit richroll.com. We're running a huge sale this week on all our nutrition products, which you would know if you subscribe to my newsletter. If you haven't done that, maybe do that. Keep sending in your questions for future Q&A podcasts to info at richroll.com. Big shout out to Sean Patterson for all his amazing help on the graphics for this episode. Chris Swan for production assistance. And thank you to Anna Lemma and Tyler Pyatt for all the transition music. That's my boys band. They're amazing. Thanks for all the support, you guys. I love doing this. And I love all of you. See you soon.

Peace. Plants. Thank you.