The Rich Roll Podcast - Jay Duplass & Michael Strassner On The Art of Creative Rebellion

Episode Date: September 1, 2025

Jay Duplass is an award-winning filmmaker, actor, and co-architect of the mumblecore movement. Michael Strassner is a comedian, actor, and the protagonist of Jay's new film "The Baltimorons." This conversation explores Jay's first solo directing effort in 14 years, Michael's journey from rock bottom to seven years of sobriety, and how they created a transcendent film for less than the cost of an LA permit. We discuss creative authenticity versus Hollywood cynicism, why early sobriety rarely gets screen time, and how serving someone else's story might save your own. In the process, we dissect how cultural mythology is built through storytelling and why flawed humans make better protagonists than superheroes. These two are creating equipment for living. What unfolds is a love letter to persistence. Enjoy! Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube Newsletter Sign-Up   Today’s Sponsors: Seed: Use code RICHROLL25 for 25% OFF your first order 👉https://www.seed.com/RichRoll25                           Squarespace: Use code RichRoll to save 10% off your first order of a website or domain 👉https://www.squarespace.com/RichRoll     Bon Charge Get 15% OFF all my favorite wellness products w/ code RICHROLL 👉https://www.boncharge.com                                                           Roka: Unlock 20% OFF your order with code RICHROLL 👉https://www.ROKA.com/RICHROLL            The Sprouting Company: Get 10% off and a free copy of "The Sprout Book" with code RICHROLL 👉https://www.thesproutingcompany.com/pages/richroll On: High-performance shoes & apparel crafted for comfort and style 👉https://www.on.com/richroll               Check out all of the amazing discounts from our Sponsors 👉 https://www.richroll.com/sponsors   Find out more about Voicing Change Media at https://www.voicingchange.media  and follow us@voicingchange

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Look, everybody's got a story to tell, experience earned on the field of life, gifts that are worth sharing, which is something I am consistently encouraging people to do. Because when we do it, it turns strangers into friends and creates a community where before there was run. To do this effectively, though, you need an online presence. It's just a fact. But even if you're building one from scratch or have an allergy to technology, there's really nothing to fear because Squarespace's all in one platform makes the process incredibly simple with everything you need from claiming a domain to building a super pro website or even when you're ready to scale to a supersonic level, all in one place. The newest feature is their blueprint AI, which basically creates a custom website for you in just a few steps.

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it doesn't matter how good you are. So head on over to Squarespace.com slash Richroll for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use code Richroll to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. the movie is set during six months of sobriety and that's one thing that michael talked about a lot is how there aren't a lot of movies about early sobriety there's a movie's about what it takes to get sober but this movie really is about being early sober and still being an alcoholic and really not knowing how to do it and you know there were so many poignant moments about that when michael was telling me his personal story that made me want to tell this story and you know one

of them was, you know, his desperate fear of like never being funny again. That was your biggest fear in terms of getting sober is like being funny is everything that you were at the time and what you felt like you had to offer the world. And if you are sober and you can't do that, obviously you made the decision that it wasn't worth living in that moment. I was downstairs in my basement and my best thinking was, I don't think I want to be here anymore, you know. So I tried to hang myself and luckily the belt broke. And the next day was the first day I actually asked for help. So there was a brief chapter of my life, this period of time in which I was beginning to kind of get my curiosity, wider birth to explore new projects.

and do interesting and different types of creative things, while also looking for, you know, kind of weighs out of my lawyer career, but also before the full-blown existential crisis meets health scare incident that, you know, basically precipitated the chapter that I'm most well-known for, which was my period of lifestyle upheave and then ultra-endurance competition. But the phase I'm talking about right now is a phase of my life that I actually don't think I've talked about very much. It all went down when I was working as an entertainment lawyer, no longer in the big,

giant law firms, but in a small firm that I had formed with a couple friends. At the time, I was working with writers and producers in the then, I think very exciting independent film space. And I actually had a fair amount of fun doing this, probably the most fun that you could have as a lawyer, at least in my opinion. And I have very fond memories of attending the Sundance Film Festival and being energized by supporting and just by being around young artists, young filmmakers

who were so devoted to realizing their dreams. And there was something very inspirational about that. I have this one memory that really stands out among many great memories attending the Sundance Film Festival. And it was for the premiere of a film that was called Love Liza. And on one side of me, sitting in the audience, was my friend Gordy, who had written that movie and would go on to win the Waldo Salt Screenwriting Award that year at Sundance for the best screenplay. And sitting on the other side of me was Gordo's brother, Phil, as in Philip Seymour Hoffman. And then next to him was their mother, Maryland, who was a judge in Rochester at the time and somebody I'd become friends with.

and I guess I'm sharing that because this was the kind of experience I realized that, you know, kind of a peak experience that no corporate law firm was ever going to be able to deliver to me. And another reason why it was a somewhat enjoyable period of time for me was because it sated the appetite of my inner shadow artist because I think what I really wanted to do back then was what my clients were doing, which was right and direct low budget independent movies. But that was too risky, far too scary, whereas being just in the proximity of other people that were doing it felt fun but safe, you know, because it gives this illusion of being part of something that you're actually kind of not. Anyway, this fascination with film that I had wasn't exactly a new idea. I'd been a PA on sets when I lived in New York City for a couple years at the beginning of the 90s. I attended NYU for a filmmaking intensive one summer, but steeping myself in it as a lawyer

began inching me towards stepping more into the art form itself. So I did what you do when you live in L.A. as a requirement, which is to begin writing a screenplay. So that's what I did in collaboration with my wife, Julie, later with my friend Drew. On the script that I would truncate into something that in 2003, I could realize as a short film that I was capable of directing. That film was called Down Dog, which was like this 15-minute, very broad satire on the very ripe to be made fun of yoga scene in L.A. at that time. And the film's fine, I guess. It's not like I've gone back and watched it. Parts of it, I suppose, might hold up. But I will say that there was a very brief moment in time back then when it, this script, the feature,

version of it, caught the eye of Matthew McConaughey's then production company called J.K. Liven. And it appeared for like a millisecond, like maybe this project would turn into a movie that would get made with double M in the starring role. Of course, that all quickly ended. Uh, that script ended back up in a drawer and I would get interested in other things, things that would eventually lead me here. Anyway, I bring all this up only because this little film that I made, Down Dog, ended up playing a bunch of film festivals. It even won an award here and there. And one of those festivals was the Bend Film Festival in 2005. And at that festival, the feature that everyone was talking about was this film called The Puffy Chair. It was a super

low-budget, low-fi indie production by first-time writer-directors, Jay and Mark Duplas, who also happened to be brothers. I made a point to see it, and I knew immediately that the guys behind it were, unlike me, very much the real deal. Jay was not there in person. He was with the Puffy chair film at another festival that weekend, but Mark was, and I got a chance to meet him, got to hang out with him a little bit. And so partly because of that, I've always felt emotionally invested in these brothers, maybe more than I should. And watching them succeed, seeing them rise to such a high level in the crazy business that is the movie industry has been a real joy for me. Over the years, these two have made tons of great stuff, but these days,

they're off doing separate things, part of this sort of conscious uncoupling of sorts in which Mark has gone on to become basically a legitimate movie star. Jay, in his own right, a producer and executive producer on like a zillion television and other projects out there, he started acting for the first time. You should check him out in season two of HBO's industry, which is a show where he plays a hedge fund guy. He does a great job.

In addition to that show, just being next level, his performance is very unique and memorable. But the thing that Jay had not done is direct a film all in his own. It was this hole in his experience that he began to fill when he came across this improv guy, Michael Strassner, by way of Michael's short comedic videos on social media. And Michael is also this guy who happens to have this pretty extraordinary addiction and recovery story.

These two connected, Jay and Michael, they concocted a plan to work together and came up with a creative idea for a movie that they ended up co-writing for Strassner to star in and for Jay to finally solo direct. The culmination of this collaboration is the Baltimoreans, which is this really great heartfelt little indie that could with all the elements that bring up all of my Sundance nostalgia. And a film that is getting not only unanimous rays,

but also what is almost impossible for a tiny feature in 2025, which is a theatrical release, meaning you can and should see it immediately in theaters. So this one is a little bit of everything. It's an old school, what it was like, what happened, and what it's like now, miracle of a sobriety story. It's an artist origin story. It's a state of the union on filmmaking

and television in the streaming area. It's about venturing creative risk and it's about finding your voice along with all the kind of hows and wise of cultivating and sharing it. This one plays a little bit like a James Frye Craig Mod mashup along with a few other recent guests that fall squarely into the old school category, which as I've been talking about is really the direction that I'm interested in moving the show more towards, more so than I have in recent years at least, in part because I'm a little fatigued, I'm a little bit bored by the recent over-emphasis of podcasting on things like protocols for self-optimization. this reverse engineering of podcasts that are turning into conversations that are basically

predetermined. And I'm not crazy about that. And I really want to intentionally fall back in love with what led me to fall in love with this thing so long ago, which is just honest and open-ended conversations informed by real-life stories, earnest stories that are lifted from real life lived experience because to me I mean that's the shit man and I actually think that this is what we're missing and right now especially what I think we need more of or at least I know that I do because it leads to what we happen to be lacking in my opinion as a culture right now which is more empathy and more understanding so that's what we're going to do today and this is what I'm going to focus on more going forward so if you're into the

that great if you're not that's awesome too there's lots of other stuff out there for you have at it but here i'm going to do my best to keep it true to be true to what moves me true to what i think is important when it comes to getting our head around the human condition and i think this conversation is exactly that so with that this is me j duplos and michael strasner so have at it for both of you guys, it's your first solo directing effort. And Michael, obviously, this is like a launch pad for you. So that's gotta be like, you know, like, it's wild. Very cool, but possibly deranging also.

You know, keep yourself grounded. Exactly. But I think, Jay, like as an outsider looking in on your career, like you and your brother, you've gone off and you've, you know, flexed in all these different areas and you've got your hands in, you know, hands in, you know, so many different projects. But it feels like your compass is pretty well calibrated. Like there is a pretty solid understanding of like, this is what I do or these are the areas in which I excel. And all of the products feel on some level of a piece with each other,

even if you're, you know, stretching over here or over there. And I believe there's a narrative around the Baltimoreans that this is sort of a return to your roots. But I don't necessarily see it that way, I just feel like it's an extension of what you've always been doing. There's a purity to it perhaps that makes it unique and special. But like many people, like everyone, like my introduction to you and your brother was the Puffy Chair. And I actually, I met your brother in 2005

at the Bend Film Festival when he was there with the movie. Yeah. Because I had written and directed a short film that was also screening at that, at that festival called Down Dog. It was like this parody of the LA yoga scene. That's great. And I kind of like palled around with your brother a little bit.

Oh, cool. And I just remember when I saw that film, I was like, oh, like these guys are for real. Like this is a real movie. Like they're going places. And your brother at that time, you know, he was telling me like, oh, you guys were getting writing assignments already and stuff like that. Like your, the foundation of your career was already kind of taking place at that time. time. And so that kind of like gave me an emotional connection to like the career that the two

of you have been having. But this movie now, like I was living in New York when Slacker came out and, you know, it was all Hal Hartley and El Mariachi. And, you know, then it was sex lies and videotape and blue velvet. These movies that just really changed like my young mind around like what a movie could be. And there was so much hope and like earnestness and excitement and possibility during that period of time. And I would go to Sundance every year and it was just like so exciting to go to these premieres

and see these filmmakers get up on stage and just, you know, their dream had come true. You know, it was just very special. And this movie, The Baltimoreans, very much feels like a movie out of time. Like it is a movie from that era that shares that, DNA. So was that like part of the, you know, the thinking process? Like, it's anachronistic that this

movie, the reviews are incredible. Everybody's very excited about it. And it's actually getting a theatrical release. Like a movie like this doesn't go into the theaters anymore. Like it is like out of time. Like it's this bizarre unicorn. I mean, most independent films don't get a theatrical. Nowadays, much less one with no movie stars. I mean, Michael is a movie star. People just don't know it yet. Three months from now, possibly a movie. Possibly, very possibly. Keeping standards low, though. Yeah.

Yeah, it is very unusual to have this kind of success with a tiny little movie, and I did return to my roots. You know, I was coming off of a long period of big things in my life happening, and it might not be perceptible to other people in the public because we do produce a lot of things and we support people,

and we're always involved in helping people make things, TV shows, movies, whatever it may be. But, you know, over the last seven or eight years, I've essentially gone through like a loving breakup with my brother about us making art, you know, in a forced march, almost immigrant style way, you know, where we've come to realize that like, you know, I actually still want to be the Cohen brothers on some level. I'm just going to do it on my own. I want to be a writer-director. My brother's, more runs a tiny little studio our company is basically a small studio so it's been like a long journey but ultimately what led me to michael and to this project is you know i was going through

that breakup trying to figure out how i was going to make movies again we had the pandemic which kind of destroyed independent films because a covid budget on an independent film is more expensive than the independent film to do the protocols basically and then we had our strikes and towards the end of the strikes I realized I had not directed a movie in 14 years I've been supporting everybody else

and making their stuff and I just got to the point where I was like I need to make a movie come hell or high water which was exactly the place I was at when we made the puffy chair which is at that time I was like I gotta do it

You know, because that's the thing about Hollywood, which you know well, which you know well, which is like, it's very easy to confuse talking about making movies with making movies. They are not the same thing. And, you know, my brother and I, over time, we really forced ourselves into, you know, an almost compulsive creativity because,

and we even had a philosophy around it, which was just for me and him, but it started coming out. And now it's like a, I guess it's like an independent film mantra, which is make movies not meetings. Because even when you get involved in Hollywood, they just want to talk about stuff.

And our philosophy, even when we have a meeting with the studio, it would be like, we love to make this movie with you. We are making this movie on August 15th. If you would like to be a part of it, that would be fantastic because we don't want to have to pay for it

with the measly $17,000, we can scrounge together. But we are making it, you know, in Hollywood being essentially a junior high dating scene, the less you need them, the more they want you. You know what I mean? Instead of, you know, being on your knees and begging. 100%.

Being in this, you know, weak place from which to negotiate, just being like, we're doing it. Like, do you want to get on the bus or not? Like, we're cool. But, yeah, that's a power move. It is. It was our own little weird power. move and um so i kind of returned to that place and i also um you know i knew i was going to be

you know i had made i had made a movie in 14 years and and hollywood is what have you done lately and so i just thought to myself i was like i need to return to the place of the puffy chair where i can just tell a true story and use the people who are living it and i was just thinking about my life and i had gotten to know michael a little bit yeah instagram yeah how did you go I mean you go to me. We, so I was putting up, like, dumb videos on Instagram. They weren't done. They were very smart and sophisticated.

But it was Buffalo Bill talking to his Alexa. Yeah. Buffalo Bill, the mass murderer. Yes. Yeah, a lot of videos up there. Yeah, exactly. You know, playing characters and stuff. Yeah. So I did this one.

And also I would do Brunay Brown a bunch because I was such a Brunei Brown fan. And I would play, like, I would just be talking about, like, random stuff. that she would be, like, yelling at her husband, basically, about. It's like, you know, Steve, you know what I really did? I went to, I got ice cream the other day. You know what ice cream stands for? I courage, encourage, courage, redeem myself a shame. And I just saw Jay follow me, and I was like, holy shit.

Like, my hero follows me. Someone I've looked up to for years. I am going, like, it was crazy. I was just like, you know. And I had a short film at the time that I was looking for an actress for. And I was like, you know what? This guy helps out a lot of people. Why not me?

And I just sent him a DM. And I was like, hey, Jay, I'm a huge fan of yours, all this stuff that I listed. I'm trying to shoot this short film. If you could help, great. If not, it just means the world that you read this. That was in September of 2021. He got back to me in February of 2022. And he was like, dude, I don't check Instagram.

I don't know how it works. I don't know how it works. I know people think. I think I'm savvy, I'm old, and I don't know how social media works. Yeah, to the point now, we're like, we'll be together. And he's like, can you help me post this? Like, I'm trying to make sure it's not cropped out. And I was like, I got you.

Come here. And he messaged me back, and he was like, send me the script. I sent him the script, and he was like, come over my house. And I was like, I was doing Buffalo Bill videos and you want me to come over your house where your kids live? Okay, sure. And we just have this, like, great lunch. He helps me with the short.

I shoot it. I edit it. I direct it. I come back, and this is like the stuff that like is unheard of in Hollywood, in my opinion. He took time out of his day to help me. And, uh, then we came back for the edit. And he like stopped and he was like, okay, like this is where you cut here. This is where you, and he just like showed me how to do it. And, um, God, I'm getting emotional this early. And, uh, we're gonna cry. Yeah, we're gonna. And it was just the first person that really took time with me, you know. And

And it was, then I took him out to lunch to thank him in December of 2022, and I gave him a Sidney Pollock picture of Tootsie because he said it was one of his favorite movies. And I told him a little bit about my story, how I got sober. And after that lunch, I put on my manifestations, shoot a movie with Jay Duplas, number two. Number ones always stay sober every year. And he calls me up in April and he's like, hey man, I want to make a movie and I want you to be the star of it. You want to do it? And I was like, yeah, that sounds awesome. What? And he was like- Yeah, I would have thought that you had been, you know, putting together a script and that on the heels of, you know, like Jay sort of opening his door to you, that that would lead to you then coming to him with a script. No. And that's not the way it happened. No. It was like, you know, I, then I came over his house and the car that I parked out front here doesn't have AC,

and I showed up to his house shirtless and- I happen to be looking out of the window and I see this large bear of a man getting out of his tiny little jetto without a shirt on and using his shirt to fan himself dry. That's like some Jack Black shirt or something. Truly, I was just like, this guy is a living movie right here. I'm like, first of all, I was like,

that's going in the movie, For sure. Yeah, we shot in December, though. So that's... We shot in December in Baltimore. That was the one thing we couldn't pull off. Yeah. But literally, I'm like, I see him out of my eye, and I'm sure those.

I'm like, hey, Jay, how are you? Just give me a minute, you know? Just need to get my back dry. And then we just kind of, like, I would just kind of tell him, like, stories. And we kind of, and then also stories and then locations that we had in Baltimore for free, you know, that we kind of back this movie in together. Yeah, we kind of, same as Puffy Chair at the time. that was a movie about my brother and his girlfriend and my brother trying to make it as a musician

and, you know, we had a touring band. We had this tiny town in Maine that Katie was from and, you know, we had a bunch of desperate people and by a bunch, I mean seven. Seven desperate people like, you know, my brother, myself, our actors, our girlfriends, now our wives, you know. So it was the similar philosophy, which is, you know, Michael had really opened his heart to me

and told me what he'd been there. I mean, he already established himself as a hilarious person, but then I learned his, you know, his origin story essentially of becoming sober. And it just inspired me and, you know, I was like, I think this is it. And, you know, he's, Michael's originally from Baltimore and one of his best friends, David Bonnet, was there and was looking for work.

He had been Paul Rubin's assistant. And Paul Rubens had just died and he was looking for work and had returned to Baltimore from L.A. And we were just like, I think we can, create a movie in Baltimore that's essentially you know semi autobiographical

and it will be you know as authentic as a movie could possibly be because ultimately in the end I'm trying I want to look we're in the age of TikTok

and social media and all this stuff but like you and I grew up watching movies that was a dominant art form it was the dominant art form for I do you too I mean I would go to the movies by myself and sit there and just like escape

for an hour. It was like, that and drugs and alcohol is what I loved. Yeah. You know. But I mean, I am always focused on like, you know, a couple of things, which is like what can I give people that they need, you know, that people are craving. And also how can I platform beautiful, incredible people who are not being seen and who are not being witnessed and who are inspiring to me and can, you know, lift people up?

and give him a great time in a movie theater. And so Michael was it, you know, and I knew inherently that he was scrappy enough to go to Baltimore with me and make a movie on the streets of Baltimore in the middle of the night in freezing, freezing cold weather for no money and just like make a piece of art and just hope that, you know, hope and dream that, you know, it would be seen by people one day

and celebrated by people. Yeah, there's like a couple things that stand out for me and what you just share. The first thing is like you're approaching it from an audience member and from a perspective of like, how can I serve the audience? Like, you know, how can I help uplift this guy

who I feel like needs to be seen more and like how can I serve the audience rather than like how can I look good as a director or how can I, you know, it's a service-minded approach, right? Which is obviously like a, you know, it's a way of being in relationship with the world, that's a very, that's a very, you know, kind of A-A sensibility. But there's this earnestness in the film, you know, which is rare.

Like, it's sort of, there's a sweetness to it, you know. There's no, it's not cynical like our time, you know. There is a, it's, it's, it's uplifting and heartfelt and vulnerable. And, you know, this, these characters are kind of just laying it all out there, um, unapologetically, you know, and there's a real, there's real beauty in that. And you just don't see movies like that anymore. and especially like low budget independent films. Like it's just, you know, it's, it did like take me back, you know, decades to when these

were the kind of movies that were coming out all the time. Yeah. That's been the most incredible thing that we've experienced in terms of audience reaction. I mean, we've only been to film festivals so far and we've won an inordinate amount of audience awards. I've never had this experience before, even with giant, you know, not giant movies, but many of the larger movies that I've made. And that comment has kept coming back to us

is this is actually the movie I want to see on a Saturday night with my partner or with my friends. Like, this is the movie I want, this is the movie that will get me back into the movie theater. And also, like, the people have come up to me and, like, said, I want to live in a world

what this movie exists. And, like, that's been like the sweetest compliment to me. Yeah, yeah, you know. Yeah, I definitely do. And the wild part is that, you know, Everyone who came to work on this movie, it's really a self-fulfilling prophecy in a way because when you can only pay people the bare minimum, they only will be there unless they want to be there, unless they really care and need to be there spiritually. So we had 15 people on the ground in Baltimore who were just like crying with us every day as we were shooting these scenes and laughing with us every day and just having the time of our lives, like the experience of making the movie to get. has been was for us the way that I think the audience is experiencing the movie and

that's been very refreshing because it is so easy to look out into the world and get discouraged but like it you know it's just a reminder that it's on us to create the beauty and the culture and the joy and the love that we want to experience every day like we are the manifesters of our own destiny and at the time you know I mean it's a very cheap movie but movie still costs money and you know the philosophy behind it was kind of like

we're gonna lose money on this movie you know what I mean we were kind of like maybe we'll put it up on YouTube or something yes yes I mean it was Jay has told me several times like we're not going to make money on this yeah but you're probably like I don't care I'll pay you Yeah, exactly, truly. I was like, how much you need for me? Like, I got a little bit in the savings, you know?

Yeah, that point of like take responsibility for creating the beauty you want to see in the world is similar to that speech that your brother gave at South by Southwest about like no one's coming to save you. Yeah, the cavalry isn't coming. It's an industry in which there's a lot of gaykeepers and you were just mentioning like, yeah, you got to raise money, but like that power move

of saying like we're doing this, no matter what, speaks to that idea that we're not waiting for permission for many of these people. And yes, the tools that are available now, democratized, like access to this kind of storytelling, it still costs money, you know? It still costs money, but you don't need all these people. And I think there was once, you know,

just this grand romance about like making a studio film or whatever, being anointed by the powerful people in Hollywood who are, you know, kind of pulling you out of the crowd and saying this is the next guy. Yeah. That feels like it's gone, which kind of opens it up to everybody

to just like go out and make shit. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, making stuff is, it's the most fun thing to do and it does create your own reality. And it is exactly what you're saying that, I mean, most of the people that I know,

I mean look we're considered an overnight success but by the time I had made the Puffy Chair I was 31 years old I had made three failed features I had made a bunch of shitty short films I had finally made a couple of short films that had some traction so Puffy Chair was

the last ditch effort for me I mean it was like I was you know had just turned 30 I was like I can't do this to myself anymore I can't drag myself through this torture and my family through that people were worried about me you know but ultimately um i loved making movies you know i that's what i loved doing and i just kept doing it and everyone that i know that is successful it's never an overnight success story it's attrition it's it's you know forging forward when all the signs even tell you you you shouldn't be successful

This isn't going to work, you know. I mean, it's similar to what you created with your podcast. It's like, you know, following people around and going into their hotel rooms with little cameras that you barely knew how to work at the time, you know, because ultimately your heart was in the right place and you knew that there were stories to tell that needed to get out there. That's what I've learned over and over again. It's weird that I've been doing this for like 30 years.

I mean, I've only been successful for 20 of them, but the, the, the, the, the, the, the, It's funny because I feel like the answer to every question at a film festival is make an undeniably great film, you know, because everyone wants to, how do I get this? How do I get that? You know, how are we going to get a tiny movie distributed with no stars at a time when people are saying movies are dead? You know, like, and independent films are off, off Broadway now, you know? And the answer is, I don't care. I love this guy. He has a story to tell. We'll talk about Liz a little bit, but his co-star, Liz Larson, I fell in love with her. I learned about her personal story and incorporated that.

I was like, this is a story that I just want to tell and I just have to trust that it's going to go into the world and, you know, contrary to what everyone was predicting, we are actually going to make money on this movie and we're going to release it theatrically

in movie theaters this fall. And it's totally, insane it's it's you know i'm i'm sitting here talking like i um created this or believe in this philosophy but i also doubted i mean i told michael i was like we need to be prepared this is not going to sell to make no money we need to be prepared to maybe have trouble at festivals we need to be prepared for all these things we just need to know that like we want to tell this story is very very important to us and we're going to do this and that's going to be enough and then we're going to see where it goes. And the coolest thing was within 24 hours of us premiering at

Southby, I was walking down the street with Jay, and he got a text, and it was like, we got our first like offer distribution offer. And that ended up being the one. Yeah. IFC. We're brought to you today by Bond Charge. Now, it's fair to say that I have subjected my skin to a lifetime of harsh treatment, thousands of hours and overly chlorinated indoor pools, extensive sun exposure, and pretty much almost no concern for skin care. And I would say it wasn't until I was about in my mid-50s that I started doing what I should have done all along, which is taking care of my body's largest organ. This shift marked a fascination with the science of skin rejuvenation and in turn led me to the incredible product line from Bon Charge, most notably their

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and can transcend all obstacles ultimately. And just believing in that and doubling down on that is like inspirational. But Michael, like you mentioned, okay, the story is semi-autobiographical. So like we got to do a little bit of what was like what happened and what it's like now because your story is pretty wild. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I grew up in Baltimore, Maryland,

and everyone was always like, ooh, the wire. I think it's more like hairspray, you know, not more light and fun. But, you know, grew up with my mom, my dad, two sisters, and then my parents got divorced when I was eight and then my neighbors became my step family. So we kind of had this merger family and, you know, like I just didn't like being like the talk of Towson, like, you know, our smaller, like we were kind of like everyone was talking about the Strassaners and all this stuff. And also I think I put a lot of that on me. Like, you know, I think just like so many other alcoholics and addicts. Meaning like there's there's some drama coming out of that house. Yeah. And, you know, like it all. it all was like a, it was a little bit of a tough, you know, upbringing. And then, but when I found, ironically enough, I smoked for the first time when I was 10, little weed outside of CVS. Congratulations. Yeah, it was awesome. It was actually not even behind CVS. We were at the front door to the right. So just two 10-year-old smoking pot out of an apple in Baltimore, which was really great.

And then the funny thing is, the next day I went over my friend's house, and I was like, we can smoke any kind of weed. Because I'm 10 years on, I don't know what the hell I'm talking about. And we go to the pantry and we get dill weed out. And we roll that up in computer paper and we smoke that. And we did not get high, but we like hurt our throats. And Ms. Pontier came home and she's like, why does it smell like matches in here?

What have you been lighting? But my whole point is once I did it, I couldn't wait to do it again. And the same thing happened with alcohol, you know. And then ironically enough when I was 12, I took five shots, went to a party and then threw up everywhere that night. My mom picked me up and went to the hospital, got my stomach pumped at 12.

That's for real. Yeah. And I knew that I didn't feel well, but I couldn't wait to do it again. And, you know, it was just more of that. And also, like, the thing that I also realized was I loved drinking and doing drugs, but I also made, I loved making my mom laugh. That was like the two things, you know. and my heroes were like Robin Williams, Chris Farley,

you know, Bill Murray, we're all people I looked up to. There's definitely some Bill Murray in this character. Oh, yeah, for sure. And there's some Farley, you know, physicality-wise. Like, I love that this movie has physical comedy because I feel like I never see that anymore. And done, like, actually, like, not, like, low-brow, you know. But, you know, and then...

But the thing is, like, growing up in ball, there was really never any talk about like, I think now it's more conversational, but like, you know, I got in a hit and run when I was 19 because I reached down for CrunchRap Supreme at a red light and I hit a fire hydrant and then two parked cars and then I got out on foot and called my mom and I was like, Mom, you gotta come get me.

And she's like, Michael, you have the car. And I was like, well, I know where it's parked. And then I came back and got arrested and everything. And my best thinking was, I guess I should join a fraternity now. now, you know, the opposite of like, maybe this guy's got a problem, maybe this guy needs some help, maybe. Let's institutionalize this. Yes, exactly. Absolutely. But like, you know, consequences really didn't happen for me. You know, I moved out to L.A. And like, to be a comedian, to be an actor. Yeah, to be an actor and to follow in like the footsteps of my heroes. You know,

I wanted to be on SNL so bad. Like, that was all I ever wanted, you know. And I got that opportunity. Back in 2017, I went to New York and tested twice. The second time I tested, I was like, okay, well, I guess I'll be living here. Like, this is going to be great, not sober at the time. And when I came back, I was just like super depressed. And, you know, the way the movie starts is, I don't, should we give it away? Yeah, you can tell on the movie starts. The way the movie starts is a failed suicide attempt.

And, you know, I was downstairs in my basement and my best thinking was, I don't think I want to be here anymore, you know? So on the heels of not getting the SNL. Not getting the SNL, things just not going my way or whatever type of story I had to tell myself. And I tried to hang myself. And luckily the belt broke.

And the next day was the first day I actually asked for help. and you know like I just look back on that and it's like crazy to me that like it could have went another way and I might not have been here astronomical odds that you are here yeah exactly the other piece that that is similar to the story in the movie is is kind of getting booted out of your improv group right like was it the groundlings or yeah or yeah so citizens or what? Yeah, so basically what happened was, I was in the Sunday company there

and they told me to take a leave of absence and you'll be welcome back with open arms. And they wanted you to get sober. Yeah, they wanted me to get sober. And so I did that. And it was like the first time that like consequences were like there, you know. And when they said that like,

it's the best thing ever happened me because I got sober and I haven't had a drink since, you know. Did you go to treatment or did you just like show up insurance? Go to a meeting or how did that, how did that happen? Went to a meeting. This guy met me at a Starbucks and he like literally, I didn't understand why he was meeting me.

I didn't understand like why he was taking time out of his day. What's the angle? What's the angle here? Yeah. And he was like, you know, someday you're gonna do it for somebody else. And he took me to my first meeting on a Monday morning. And ironically enough, it was a, I was driving Uber for one of my odd jobs out here. I was driving Uber and I picked up somebody

at like 7 a.m. in the morning one time like two years before this. And I was like, where are you headed? And she's like, I'm just going to like this AA because I'm so nosy. I'm going to this AA meeting. And I was like, oh, I didn't know they do that that early. That's awesome.

Congrats. I hope you figure it out. Meanwhile, you're drunk driving her probably. Yeah, exactly. And ironically enough, that's the first meeting I walked into. Yeah, it was like, did you clock it? Like, you remembered, like, oh, I remember I dropped somebody off here. So at least I know where that one has.

Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, like, I just, I kind of like, I didn't want to be there. You know, I did not want to be sober. I did not want, because I was all, I was also, like, so afraid of what life looked like without this thing that I had for so long. Well, that's a huge theme that I want to, like, put a pen in that because I want to, I want to dig into that a little bit more deep.

but before we do that, like I suspect that there's this, you know, you mentioned Farley, right? So you're, if you're trying to like, you know, mimic your heroes, you know, it's sort of that rock star thing. It's like, well, this is the lifestyle, man, I'm gonna go to LA and it's like, you're trying to live the like, you know, swingers, the movie lifestyle.

Like you gotta be at these clubs and you gotta, you know, show up, post up, and be the guy, be the center of attention and all that kind of stuff that is like, fueling your desire to be like seen and recognized and yeah and the way you described your your comedy performances at groundlings like michael was known as like the guy who can like save a sketch with like a topless belly flop at any point in time you know it's just like a physicality sacrificing your body like you know just going nuts on stage that was a big part of like

there was just this one thing that i did where i was like this southern it's like this southern gym teacher that just like kept on wanting to get into the glory days and like would just get like tackled and like sacked like and I was taking hits on stage and like I had main company members be like you're not actually like like there's mats down I'm like no I'm just taking it you know and it's like I just love the pain of it like whatever I could do for a laugh I would do it you know and like and I also thought that like I'm more funny when I'm drunk like there's those go together like that's not a thing. And thank God, there's not any, there wasn't iPhones back in 2016 when I was going to weddings because, you know, I was the guy who would like put one sock on my foot and

another sock on another appendage and then be like, anyone see my other sock? And women didn't like that, you know, like my buddy's fiancees were like, Michael has a problem. And, you know, it was just like, I just didn't want to deal with it. I was like, this is, this is what my heroes did. Farley got nude, like Farley did like big physical stuff and like Balushi, yeah, you can just list them off. Yeah, and ironically in every art form too, that idea that drugs and alcohol are the portal to creativity. Like we know that that's not true,

but it is a deeply entrenched thing and the prospect of having to break up with that is terrifying, it's like an existential crisis. Like you're, I won't be able to do, I have to be willing to not be able to do this thing that I love that brought me here that I'm so invested in in order to save my life.

100% and like ironically enough, the first book I read when I got sober was the Chris Farley show. And the book opens up with him talking to a group of addicts and saying if he can do it, anybody can do it. And I was like, I had no idea that he, you know, like tried and like had time. And I read that page and I was like, okay, well, yeah,

if he could do it, maybe I could do this. You know, like he wasn't just a, you know, crazy drunk person, you know, you know. And, ironically enough, too, Tommy Boy was completely sober. And it's like the best performance, I feel like he's... I didn't know that. Yeah. Yeah. So this is like the quiet theme, you know, kind of lingering behind the scenes throughout the film.

Yeah. That's like, you know, clawing at him. Yeah, the movie is set during six months of sobriety. And that's one thing that Michael talked about a lot is how there aren't a lot of movies about early sobriety. There's a movie's about what it takes to get sober because all the wildness, you know, gets to come out in a film, but this movie really is

about, you know, being, being early sober and still being an alcoholic and really not knowing how to do it. And you know, there were so many poignant moments about that when Michael was telling me his personal story that made me want

to tell this story. And, you know, one of them was you know, his desperate fear of like never being funny again that was your biggest fear in terms of getting sober is like being funny is everything that you were at the time and what you felt like you had to offer the world and if you're and if you are sober and you can't do that obviously you made the decision that it wasn't worth living yeah in that moment but you know one of the things that's so amazing about michael and probably the the linchpin of what really made me want to make this is when he told me about his suicide story

and how the belt broke he told me because he was holding a little bit of holiday weight at the time. Which, you know, the wherewithal of a person to be in tears telling me about the day that he was supposed to die and also make a hilarious joke. I was like, if you don't mind, that's going in the movie.

Of course, you know. And like, I realized when I would start, you know, once I had gotten some time in sobriety, and like, you know, would start sharing at meetings and such. And, like, I would start, like, hearing the room laugh about the stuff. And I was like, oh, like, it's like the first time I heard laughter and sobriety was in the rooms, you know. And, like, seeing people, like, open up their heart, but also, like, have a room full of alcoholics laughing at stuff or drug, you know. And it was just like, this is magic to me.

Oh, I found that community that I have always wanted, you know. And like I did not do it by myself either. Like a lot of people help me get there, you know. Some of them happen to be mutual friends. Yeah. Shout out Scotty G. Always Scottie G. I know he's listening and watching.

Yeah. He comes up a lot. Oh yeah. He's the best. And so at this point you have, so now what do you have like six or seven years? Seven years, yeah. Yeah. And it's been like, it's true.

truly has been like the most crazy experience ever like I was saying this the other day is like all I ever wanted was you know get on SNL get on TV show and like that's it and like God my God whatever you know has taken me on this whole other journey where like I didn't think we were going to win the audience award I didn't think Baltimore was going to take me all over the world and all over the country to like show this movie like that's not what I had in mind at all and it's been so much better and like that's like the most magical thing to me is like getting to experience this movie with audiences and like hearing them die laughing at like like I just I sit in the theater and just like listen because it's just the cool because I don't know

when I'm going to have this experience again and I and you get to be present present yeah 100% and like I'm like this kind of creep that like kind of sits in the back and it's just just been like the most magical well it's also an incredible lesson and in you know the idea that the worst thing that could happen to is maybe the best thing that can happen you know getting fired from groundlings getting um rejected by saturday night live you know you've said to me several times that a lot of your friends who have gone on to be on saturday night live have said it's the most miserable traumatic experience miserable traumatic experience and i want a miserable life so bad Like, that's what I want.

Like, you're just like, I got to take this misery to the max. But it's a romantic misery. It is. It is. But, you know, as you get to know people who are on Saturday Night Live, they're just like almost didn't make it. And you've said several times, like, you really don't think you would have made it.

If I went there when I was still drinking, I would be dead. Yeah. There's no doubt in my mind because I would have enjoyed the part. I mean, it would have been the party and everything. Well, it would have ratcheted up what you were already doing at Groundling Sunday Company 10fold. Yeah. You're on national television.

and in your mind, I gotta be high as hell for this to be good. And they're not sleeping, they're not doing any of that stuff. It's always easy to look through the rear view mirror and say, oh yeah, these horrible things that happened, you know, or you needed those in order to become the person that you are today, but of course they're true also. Like these traumatic experiences that create all that suffering

are grist for transformation. And on some level, the universe is like, no, you don't get to get that because like you're fucked up dude, you know? And until you snap out of it and start, you know, cleaning yourself out, like, you know, we're gonna deprive you of these things because you're not ready for them, you're not prepared for them.

I think the thing that gets lost, like they're, we live in a town where there's a lot of inspirational stories of great artists who were sort of under the belief that like drugs and alcohol were required in order for them to like share their gift. They get sober and then, their careers blossom, right? But as anybody who's like in these rooms knows,

like the only thing that, you know, you are guaranteed for not drinking and using is to be sober. You know, it's not like you do it to get these things. But you're provided with the opportunity to, you know, become this more self-actualized person and that puts you in a position to become available for a bigger and more beautiful life.

Like you get the chance to chase your dream because of that, but you're not guaranteed the dream. 100%, I mean like, I heard other people share their morning routines in those rooms and I stole those morning routines from people. You know, like I get up every day at four and I get on my knees, I make a prayer, I do my meditation, I journal,

I read a new chapter of a book every day, I go to the gym and exercise and then I work for an hour on my work, whatever that is writing, you know, and then I hit a, meeting every single day. And that's all before 8.30 a.m. And all that stuff, I feel like is, again, the only way I'm allowed to do that is because I'm sober. And I think like when I put sobriety first, then the rest of the stuff, the cash and prizes don't come, but you're,

you can actually work hard and get the things, or get the things that you want, the dreams that you want, you go and chase them yourself with, you know, sobriety on your back. And then the challenge becomes when you get your dream, which you're getting right now. Like, how do you maintain sobriety as your first priority and not suddenly become captured by all the kind of fancy things that are going to be dangled in front of your face now? Well, I've got to stay grounded. I got a lot of people to keep me humble.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I got a lot of people, people that keep me humble, you know. Like, I've got a great core group of friends that, like, you know, just are there for me. And I also, like, I help out a lot of people by offering my time and sponsorship, you know. And, you know, I personally love when I get a phone call from anyone because it gets me out of my own self and gets me out of like, why am I not going out for that, you know, all the stuff that the industry that I'm in can take up my whole entire day and get me all crazy, you know, instead find a way to be of service, you know. And that can be with my partner, with everybody.

But, you know, another cool thing is, like, the movie had, like, all my family in it. So, like, they keep me grounded a lot, too. And they're like, yeah, you're just from Baltimore. You're not anything that big, you know. But. Although I think their eyes were pretty wide open at South by Southwest. Yes. Oh, did they all come for the...

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it was so funny. I'll do this quick story. My mom sitting one seat over from me. and she's in the first five minutes of the movie. She plays Darlene, Brittany's mom, and she's watching, and she comes on screen, and she just goes, oh.

She forgot. She was in it. She was in it, yeah, yeah. And I was like, come on, Mom. And then my dad came to another screening, and my dad and my stepmom were so sweet that they came to the Saturday one. And my dad is just in my ear going,

there's Marty, there's Allison, oh, there's Chris. And I'm like, Dad, this is not a private, You can't just be saying everybody that you're seeing on the screen. And then it was just so cool because like, and like, in all honesty, like this is what's going to keep, like, that whole day on Saturday we got to do press and do all these things like that I've never done before. Take pictures and, you know, get to do all that. It was, it was a blast. The coolest thing about doing that whole was having my family next to me and like watching this movie that we worked so hard on.

Like seeing that was like, that's my dreams. Like my mom's finally seeing her son up there on the big screen and like, that's, that keeps me here, you know. Except for your brother. Yeah. Who wasn't able to make it. Yeah. Which is another big piece in all of this.

Yeah. Yeah, that was, you know, that was a year into my sobriety. I had a year and two days and I got a phone call from my dad. And my dad said, Zach is no longer among the living. And, you know, like, I didn't know what to do. So I called up my sponsor. He came over. He helped me book a flight.

I went home. And, like, I put my one year chip in the gasket with Zach because he had time in the program too. And I just, like, showed up and be of service. You know, how can I help people there? And it was brutal, you know, like he was 33. It's like the same age as like, you know, Farley and Belushi. And like, and he really tried at this.

And like, that's the thing is like, I don't understand why I get it and he does it. And, you know, when I came back to L.A., I went to my meeting. and um i just like was the first hand up raised and i just shared um i just went back to baltimore i just you know had to bury my brother and um i went back to my seat and the guy that had his arms wrapped around me was my friend zach and like that's god to me you know that's zach saying I'm okay up there or wherever he is, you know, is that, yeah, it's like, it's a, it's a, it's a messed up disease. And, you know, like, it's been riddled in my family, like my, my, my granddad died in an accident, the car accident was drinking and driving, you know. And, but if I can stay

be sober than if people that need it in my family, they have someone to call, you know, and I can change the, and it's not, and I don't wanna have ego involved with like changing the narrative of a family, but like, I just love being sober so much that I, you know. Well, you could be a living example

and that's powerful in interrupting that kind of generational, you know, kind of continuation of this pattern. But there's real beauty and humility in not being like, oh, I got sober and I moved to Hollywood and now I'm doing my thing. Like the movie is a love letter to Baltimore and to like these people, like you, real people are in it,

people that you know. Mostly real people. Yeah, my whole thing. Maybe because you didn't have to pay them, but it was literally, yeah, it gives it a real authentic. and I think that there is there is a maturity and a humility in your performance because on some level like as a comedian like there is a flex

like you're gonna do your thing and you've got like your bits and stuff like that. But you're never over your skis on it. Like it's never in a like hey look at me showy way. Like it's always very integrated and germane to character development and plot. And it just felt like a less mature performer given this opportunity would be like, you know, kind of, okay, I'm going to go, I'm taking it all the way, you know.

And there was that sense of like, this guy could probably, you know, push the accelerator on this, and he's not doing that. That's him. Yeah. Or he's just holding you back from that. He's saving you from that fate. Well, he just kind of like, he gave me the best acting note I've ever gotten where it was just like, and it's such a. He just said, you're enough. Like, you're great.

Like, just stay in it. Just be you, just be real. I mean, that's the greatest compliment is, you know, is that the comedy is germane to the story because, you know, what I've found over the years, at least for the kinds of movies that I make, is that if I can tell a real honest story and it's dramatic and people are behaving very naturally,

the comedy that emanates from that, it just, it lives in the heart. you know what I mean it's not like brain comedy I mean because of course like a gag is a gag and we'll always laugh but like when the comedy lives in the heart it just like resonates and it's additive over time you know it just builds over time when you love that person more and more and I think it works both ways I think comedy also opens hearts so it's like a symbiotic relationship but I mean Michael trusted me and he's inherently just just funny he's just funny to watch he's he's it's funny to watch him do stuff and that's what we really

did is just created scenarios for him to operate in and for him to be desperate in those scenarios um because you know um you certainly in the first six months of sobriety have not shed your desperation yet and if anything it's at a fever pitch because you don't have the alcohol to mask it obviously you're desperate when you're an alcoholic but you know um so we were just trying to capture that and um you know that's a great compliment. I appreciate that. One of the more popular podcast episodes of the last five years was the one I did on the benefits of sprouting with my very energetic longtime buddy, Doug Evans, who at the time, this was back in June of 2020, had just released a best-selling book on the subject called

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to your careers of running influencer and content creator because there was a stretch there where you were like sharing your runs every day on Instagram. Yeah. And that seems to have precipitously dropped off. Yeah, I was doing a daily run log. I mean, so first of all, my dad was a marathoner. I grew up under, like, you know, he was a marathoner in the late 70s

in like the special American heyday of American distance running. I mean, now we're in a bigger heyday, but I was just obsessed with it. I ran in high school. I didn't run in college. I went to University of Texas, and it was kind of like one of the few schools that I couldn't run at. But, yeah, I kind of came back to running. I mean, I've always run on and off my whole life. But, yeah, I was trying to really make a comeback and run every day

and I drove my body into the ground, mainly just because as we were talking, I'm a workaholic and, you know, I don't have a lot of wiggle room in my life in general. Like there's just, you know, being married, I got two kids. You know, I have a partnership with my brother. I'm making a lot of movies. I'm mentoring other people to help them make movies. You got dogs? I got two dogs.

You know, it's just, I just got really beat up. And our common friend, Alexi Poppuss, has actually offered to, like, coach me. And I was like, I don't know if I can go there yet. You know what I mean? Because it creates a little bit of accountability. You might not be able to live up to right now. Yeah, yeah. And I'm not sure I could live up to it.

But I do love it. It's like, it's kind of my church, you know. I mean, right now it's just walking and jogging and, you know, just trying to get out in nature as much as possible. possible, but I did have a lot of people loving just seeing someone run every day. It was a weird, there's nothing super special about it, but I think there was something, you know, accountability wise about it. It's just like you wake up and this one guy is going to run every day, you know, which I did for about six months. And then I was like, honestly, my body just broke

down and I didn't have the wherewithal or the time or the energy to get the supports to move through it and to take care of myself as I did it, which is, you know, that's what you need to do if you want to run every day. Well, this is the dilemma for the ambitious, you know, successful person, you know, who wants to, you know, do all things and is very capable in many ways. But, you know, you strike me as somebody who overcommits themselves. Like, when you look at your IMDB, like, I thought I had a beat on, like, all your projects. And I was like, I haven't heard of 80% of these shows that you executive produce. Like, it's insane. I mean, how many things you're involved with.

So like you live inside a very crowded mind, I would imagine. Yeah, I definitely like my brother and I, you know, we grew up in the suburbs of New Orleans and we, you know, we loved movies growing up. We were obsessed with everything coming up, you know, down the pipe of HBO. It was like a momentous day, the day that cable came to our neighborhood. We didn't know what it meant. We thought like literally a big cable was going to be. laid across our lawns uh to bring all these wonderful television shows and movies in particular

but um you know at that time when we were growing up it was new orleans so we we basically thought the only way to be an artist was to to be like a 60 year old blues uh black man you know touring europe we tried to do that uh we failed at that and then um you know we went whole hog into movies and honestly it felt like i guess a little bit like immigrants to film culture because you know we weren't copula kids we didn't know anybody who made movies we had no idea how we would access it we were just you know making movies on bHS in the 80s when we were kids but we had this kind of lucky moment where i went to the university of texas in 1991 and this is when robert Rodriguez and Richard Linklater, each had made a $20,000 feature film. And we didn't have $20,000,

but that was an amount of money that we can like get our heads around. Like, oh, that seems doable one day. And Rick and Robert were also guys who were walking around Austin, Texas, wearing jeans and t-shirts and going to coffee shops and talking about movies and and so that's what kind of like birthed this idea that we could come into this world and like make films and maybe have a career doing it um but you know it still felt far away so this is all just to say that we feel like we don't belong um i know you've had that journey too is just like what am i doing here i'm we feel like we invented this thing that we're doing because we kind of were the first generation of like DV filmmakers

who, you know, our first feature film, the Puffy Chair, was $10,000. I mean, it was like shot digitally and literally was the story of our lives in that moment, very Sean Baker style in that moment, which is like, this is all the money we have and this is the only story we have to offer, you know, which is just like our pathetic desperation

around wanting to be successful and what it means to be in a relationship in your 20s, which is what that film was about. So, yeah, I, I've spent a lot of time putting my head down and just, like, not allowing myself to really come up for air. And now that I'm 50, I'm like, okay, how can I turn off that impulse, you know, that desperate instinct to just create and to be successful because volume was a big part like you're saying volume was a big part of us finding our way because we wanted to be the Cohen brothers I mean that's what everybody wanted to be in the early

90s coming up as filmmakers we failed at that they're very good at what they do by the way like don't try to be the Cohen brothers you know so it just took us a long time to figure out our style and what we uniquely had to offer. And I'm 52 now and I'm still having a really hard time turning off that desperate impulse to just continuously make things. And, you know, I mean, this year has been amazing. I've acted in a bunch of stuff, but literally four months ago, I had no prospects for any work whatsoever. I had no jobs. That's hard to believe. No, truly, I had no offers at least. I mean, There's always possibilities and I can create stuff for myself,

but I had no offers. So, I mean, I was talking to Michael about it like four months ago. I was like, you're gonna be fine, bud, don't worry. But I, you know, I had no way, I know guarantee to make money. So that's kind of what I'm struggling with right now. A story that works. Like how do you figure that out? You know, how do you know when the story is working,

when it's when it is heartfelt and all of those things? like this is a very difficult art form that I think people fail to fully appreciate. That's nice. I agree with you. And I think that there is a sort of like misperception. And that's why there's so much challenge in Hollywood is that, you know, because we all watch movies, we can make movies. But it's, it is an incredibly complex art form. And very specifically what you're saying like the the plot of a movie that's actually going to work and that part of that is a lot of experience and a lot of failure a lot of failure on my part and making movies that you know like had some fun things and some great scenes and they were funny and stuff but in the end it didn't

like get you there it didn't really deliver something that made you look at life in a whole new way I mean it's an incredibly tall order and that's where I spend most of my time is just conceiving a movie conceiving like what is the structure of a movie what is the scaffolding that's going to build that's going to pay off when you get there and then the rest of it

is like sobriety it is constant vigilance and nudges and creating positivity and you know jumping off a cliffs when you don't know if there's going to be warm water down there

might be jagged rocks and like you guys are saying like being an exemplar for everybody else as a director you know i think one of the best things that you can do is just like is just like um sure yourself up with confidence in the morning not the kind of confidence it's like fake or whatever but just that just like i believe in this movie i believe in what we're doing and when you believe in what you're doing and you go forth with love uh it creates itself you know so it really is especially on a tiny movie where, you know, you're just kind of wandering around Baltimore and you're park

in a white van. Were you running and gutting or were you, did you have permits and stuff like that? I mean, there were scenes where cars are driving and there's no other cars around. So I assume that you, whatsoever. Now, the amazing, you know, I mean, that's one of the, no, no shutting streets. Nothing was shut down. We have a, we have a scene that was filmed on what's called 34th Street in Baltimore, which is a Christmas tree avenue where all these houses. light their houses up and people are just walking around and we just shot there and we you know we did dialogue replacement we did all kinds of stuff but the amazing thing about baltimore is that um a permit to shoot on the street for a month is 65 dollars 45 45 yeah yeah 45 dollars

and i told mark and my producers back in la and they were like 45 dollars a day is incredible I'm like, 45 total, 45 total for the entire month. So as long as you are not in a street, as long as, so it's a very friendly place to shoot a movie. And that was a big part of it, too, is just like being out of L.A., which, you know, people are talking about it a lot right now. L.A. has become very bloated. It's become very expensive. The permits are expensive. If you want to shoot in a drugstore in L.A., it costs like $30,000 because everyone's savvy and, you know, so many big things have shot here. So, you know, part of the movie was also just going to Baltimore so that we could have summer camp

and make a movie together on the download. But, I mean, for sure, we were in some questionable neighborhoods at three in the morning, and, you know, I mean, crazy, we did some crazy things. We had to get a Cadillac from a trailer park where there were some... And I was like, I'm gonna get J-D-Ploss killed right here.

There were... Well, sort of the meta, the meta story to the kind of after-hours aspect of this movie. there is a sort of, you know, it all takes place, like there's this weird adventure at night and all different, they're encountering all different kinds of people. Yes. Yeah. Well, and like, even like, you know, the house at the end of the movie,

we had to get like another black door, like that matched, well, I don't want to give anything away, but just had to match doors. And I look over this woman kind of coming out of the door, and I look at her door, I was like, okay, that's a black door. And I was like, AJ, I'm going to ask this woman, we can use her house for the end shot. And went over and I was like, hey, we're shooting a movie down there. Like, is there any way we could use your front door

and to be the exterior? Just like, yeah, I'm just hanging out all day. Love to help out. So, like, the end of the movie was just like... It would never happen in LA. It would never happen in L.A. No. She was, like, rearranging plants on people's stoop for us.

She hung out with Liz, like, the whole afternoon. Yeah, like, our lead actress was like... They got each other's number. It was freezing cold, so she was able to... We used her bathroom. I mean, it was just... The whole shoot was an all-night adventure in Baltimore, just like the movie is.

It was like, you know, art, our life mimicking art, actually. You know, it was like a weird cycle. And people saying, I mean, that's on corny, but people saying like, yes, and, how can I help and, you know? Like, that's what I, I mean, I feel like I learned so much about producing from Jay

was just like, just call, see what they say. You know, the worst thing anyone's going to say is no. So you might as well just take a shot. And, you know, that's, you took a lot of shots. You mentioned that for you, Baltimore is much more hairspray than the wire. I mean, you know, John Waters is the ambassador of Baltimore. Like he's, yeah, like there's no contest here.

And he went to a screening, yeah. He was in P-Town. Had you met him before? First time ever, he's met my niece because my mom used to work at the store limited, which is an old store in Baltimore that shut down this year. But he took a picture with my niece at six months old.

So we have a picture of John with the baby and then now me and John, but you know, she, you know, he would come into the store a lot. And when I first went out to L.A., my mom was like... Does he, like, dress up just when he's, like, walking around? Yeah, I want to know what he's wearing on a Tuesday. Like, what is it day in the life? I mean, very similar, like, this jacket, probably, like, something like this, like, cozy.

He's not wearing an ascot in, like, a purple kimono. He does... He did get a scarf for his mom, like, every year for Christmas there. Like, that's what he would always do. But my mom, be my mom. She was like, you know, my son just moved out to Los Angeles. Do you have any advice for him? He wants to be an actor, and he goes, yeah, tell him to get another hobby.

Did you tell him that story when you met him? And then he went, I don't know if I said that. And I was like, you did. My mom would not, yeah. But yeah, he was like, I mean. Those are the moments, man. Well, and he came to the screening and he sat during the Q&A and everything, and he asked a question during the Q&A, which was like so cool.

He was like, how did you film on 34th Street? I've been wanting to shoot there forever. How'd you do it? The technical question. And I was like, we had a permit that we could shoot on the street. And it was all good. And he was like, oh, man, I wish I thought of that. And then he asked about the key bridge because the key bridge is in it.

And that's the bridge that came down like a few months after we shot it. Yeah. Oh, I forgot about that. Yeah, it's wild. We have a sort of iconic, it's sort of our Manhattan Bridge or a Brooklyn Bridge shot as an ode to Baltimore, which is the key bridge, which you insisted on getting. even though it was 18 degrees in the middle of the night. And I was like, let's get it, let's get it.

We gotta get this shot. And it's, it's one of my favorite shots of the movie because it just looks so beautiful and it's Christmas Eve night and it's just like stunning. And he asked, he was like, how early on before, like, how many months ago did you shoot that before it fell? And I was like, two months in December. And he was like, you know, the Wall Street Journal called me

asking for comment when the bridge fell and I was like, what do you want me to say? I've driven on it. I was like, that's great. But yeah, it's like, it's the coolest thing to like have somebody that's a legend of mine growing up and seeing all his movies and like him coming to a screening of Baltimoreounds was like,

yeah, that's really beautiful. Yeah, next level. What are some of your storytelling or filmmaking rules, you know, that might be interesting for the average person who's just a movie watcher? You know, when it comes to like, because I asked you about like,

what makes a great story, How do you know when you have a great story? I mean, my first rule is make movies, not meetings. All the kids that come to me and they want to pick my brain, and they're like, how do you get it done? And I'm like, you make movies. And their fear is that they're not ready and that they're going to be bad. And my answer is always, yes, they are.

They're going to be bad. And to dispel the myth that someone wakes up in the morning, they go to the bathroom and either a great movie comes out or a bad movie comes out. You know, I think it's, it is still relatively a new art form. So, for instance, you know, if you knew, if you had friends who went to art school and were painters in college, like, there's not a painter in the world that would expect to sell a painting until they've done at least 500. You know what I mean? At least for like a decent amount of money, maybe your friend will be nice to you and give you 50 bucks.

You know what I mean? But that's a given that as a painter, you're going to paint 500 paintings before you're actually going to be up in a gallery. people are going to buy your paintings for thousands of dollars, for instance. So, you know, I try to tell people just make bad art, make a lot of bad art. I thought I was going to be the Cohen brothers. I thought that's what I wanted to be. It turns out stylistically, I'm the total opposite. I shoot in a documentary style.

I work with no control. I'm out in the street in Baltimore trying not to get shot while I'm like running down the street filming this man, you know. And that had to be, I had to be hit over the head with that. I had to, you know, my sort of origin story for finding out what I uniquely had to offer the world was when I was ready to quit and my brother was like, we're shooting something today. And we got a tiny video camera and we shot this short film about him trying to perfect the personal greeting of his answering machine and failed to do so and had a nervous breakdown because that's what happened to me the week before. For people who aren't intimately familiar with your career, though,

what gets missed in that is the fact that, yeah, you didn't become the Coen brothers. You know, like you're of the generation, you know, there's the Soderberg. These like rock star directors, right? And like the aspiring director is like someday, you know, and when you don't know what your thing is or your style is yet, you're going to, of course, like, copy the people who inspire you.

but by just like, hey, we're shooting today, no matter what, you guys are responsible in large part for actually creating an entire new genre called Mumblecore. I don't know what your relationship or feelings are about that now, but the Coen brothers can't say that. Yeah, it is odd that we are the godfathers of a filmmaking movement that we didn't make up ourselves,

You know, it's, we... But anybody who would create a genre or a movement didn't do so because they were trying to. It was an authentic, like, sort of outgrowth of whatever it was they were doing. Like the press and film professors essentially decide what happened. But, yeah, we were at the very early stages

of the first time digital video became good enough to look at to where you could actually broadcast it, you know, and you could actually transfer, for it to film and it would look decent so we were i mean honestly it can be and that that's a testament to just staying the course but like the moment we made our first decent film was the same time that they came out with this camera called the panasonic agdvx 100 i'd still know it to this day even though that number is ridiculous because it was a revolution for myself and for so many

other people and oddly enough i mean we premiered the puffy chair at sundance but it was oddly enough at South by Southwest that four or five other filmmakers just like Mark and me were there with movies shot on that very same camera and there were movies that were very specifically about our lives and the stories that we had to offer. You know, no one was there

with a movie that cost more than $20,000. And the press got a hold of it and they were like, something is happening. something is clearly happening here and you know at the time it felt weird because we were just trying to make a movie that didn't suck

frankly that's what we were trying to do but it was incredible at the time because we got written up in the New York Times as part of a movement and we were being called the godfathers of the movement because our movie had a lot of legs to it

and that was odd and now I and we're in a lot of textbooks I have a lot of professors calling and they want to interview us because they're writing something um you know strictly academic and they want to talk to us about it so it's very cool it's very dreamy um but you know what's wild about it is like you know i wanted to be the cohen brothers but i also love john casavettis and i always wanted to i just thought it would be so cool to be iconic but as i'm in it i don't feel that way i'm still just trying to make a movie that doesn't suck they would say the same i'm sure i think so i think so i mean because even the greats i mean the cohen brothers have some some questionable films out there you know and it is such a tough form i know

how dare me i know uh but it is such a difficult form and i think um you know you got to have beginner's mindset. You have to have it because no matter what movie you're making, you're this close to making a movie that doesn't work. You know, everything has to really come together for something to be beautiful and transcendent and funny and heartfelt and all the things that you want a movie to be. Has there ever been a movie or a show that you've been involved in or that you were making where there wasn't a moment where you were like, this is a fucking disaster. Like, this is never going to work. Or that first cut or whatever where you're like,

there's never been a moment. This is never going to come together. It always comes at some point where you're like, oh no, oh no, this is maybe not going to work. We had that moment with the Baltimoreans, our critical scene, which is filmed at a comedy club where Michael and Liz, our two leads, go up on stage and essentially flop and have to figure out how to work their way out of a bad sketch. essentially that scene we filmed it it was our toughest scene we spent two days and two nights filming that scene and it didn't work it did not work and it wasn't a disaster like I would say it made the movie a B and Michael and I were like we want an A plus we will not you know

and so we went back to Baltimore in the middle of the summer to re-film that scene but it took us months to reconceive it and to figure out what that scene really needed to be it's really the linchpin of the whole movie and what was the unlock like what was the shift that you realized would make it work the unlock which is a little inside baseball but when you see the film you'll know was ultimately that like um you know you learn about these movies tell you what they need as you go along and the more you can respond the better But what we learned is that, you know, Michael's character helped Liz through the most challenging things she could imagine doing, which was to go to her ex-husband's house during Christmas

and face everyone so that she could be with her daughter and her granddaughter. And it's just something that was unimaginable to her. And we realized that that scene from Michael was the moment where Liz would be there for him. and that them just yes-ending each other and staying on stage which during this movie going back on stage

is the thing that he feels like he can't do that's over that part of his life is over so she helps him rediscover ultimately that he can be funny sober and then when it's over he realizes that it's actually better than it's ever been

so you know we there were some widgets in that scene that were really challenging in terms of like, originally he was funny in the scene, but what we realized is that he had to fail and that she needed to just show up for him and the way he showed up for her. So that was a tough reshoot.

It was like 100 degrees in that room in the summer. I had to cut all my high school buddies that were in the last scene. Yeah. It definitely works, but yeah, the movie pivots on that. Like, he's got to be the guy. Like, unless he crushes that, scene, she's not on board for the whole other part of the movie that follows.

A hundred percent. And it really... Had to build more. Yeah, and I can... I'm very confident that we would not have won the audience award at South by Southwest if we had not reshot that tough thing. And it's, you know, it's expensive, it was our most expensive scene. You know, we had 30 or 40 extras.

I know it sounds tiny, but it's just, it's a lot, you know? And, you know, we, we did pay, I mean, we paid everyone minimally, but we did pay, everybody, our sag minimums, just because, you know, we want to be, you know, above board. We can't do what we did on Puffy Chair, you know, where you just... Your parents were in it and they... Yeah. Well, we still did your parents in it, but we did pay them. Yes, exactly.

If you were making Puffy Chair today or you were, you know, where you were at, you know, prior to making that movie, but, you know, it's today, like, you guys become YouTubers. Oh, yeah, we're YouTubers. You're like, oh, yeah. Like, you would just be making stuff all. the time like you're able you this is the ethos like you're just making stuff all the time like you know moving forward moving forward moving forward like you know it would have been you know immediately obvious that like YouTube was going to be the place where you were going to tell your

story a hundred percent it would be YouTube and in fact our agents at CAA have recommended many many times that we start a YouTube channel you know I would watch your whatever you got that's really nice I mean maybe that will happen one day but you know I think the tricky part too is is that, you know, if you create a YouTube channel and you run a YouTube channel, you become the manager of a television channel or a web channel. Yeah, exactly. You know, you become. It's a whole thing.

It's a whole thing. And if you're going to do it. Absolutely. And the thing that I think I've realized more than anything about my life is that my childhood dream of being a writer-director has never changed. You know, I've flexed and I've accidentally become an act. actor you know and i've i've had to produce my movies and so that they could be made the way that i need them to be made and and then of course like i've been lucky enough to work with a lot of

up-and-coming young people and all kinds of different voices and help them do their thing but i think in like the sort of like back nine of my career i'm realizing this is what i really want to do is write and direct films and um and so just um i want to put all my creative energy into that, you know, because that, giving everything you've got and that is, you know, there's still no guarantee that you can keep going. Sure.

Michael, I'm curious about your perspective on this. You know, we're in this weird era right now where, you know, movies and television are up in the air. Movies are dead. People aren't going to the theaters. And yet when you turn on your smart TV, it's just like you just can't believe how much choice you have.

And people are saying like, oh, you know, like there's no jobs. Everyone's out of work in L.A. And then you're like, yeah, but who's making the 7,000 shows that, you know, seem to seem to premiere every week across all of these platforms? So it's a bizarre time. Like, you know, the economic model, you know, behind all of this, the engine is very much, you know, in transition. But because the gatekeepers have been completely removed,

at least on platforms like YouTube, you have an entire generation of young people who are just making stuff all the time and they're learning intuitively how to tell a good story or what works or what doesn't. And like, you're making these short videos on your social media and all of that,

which you have to imagine is going to create a lot of really talented creators who will eventually go on to make feature films or, you know, series television or whatever. We're already seeing some people do that. Who are those Australian brothers? Talk to me, yeah, talk to me, directors.

Those guys like they're like the hot new thing. They have that, don't they have a movie coming up soon? Who knows out in June? Oh no, the, um, it's with what's her face. I know, I know what you're talking about. I've seen the movie. It was great, it was great. And Ava Victor who has Sorry Baby,

it's the big hit out of Sundance this year. She got a 824 release and you know, she originally was an instance Instagram influencer who turns out is an incredible filmmaker. Yeah, but what we haven't seen is what your agent suggested that you guys do. Like see like legitimate veteran filmmakers, directors, who have been in Hollywood forever,

go to YouTube and make some interesting, cool stuff. We've done it on a less extreme scale because our fourth and fifth movies were Hollywood movies. They were, you know, Fox Searchlight and Paramount movies. They were $7.5 and $10 million, respectively. And, you know, at that point in time, we realized, man, we actually enjoy making the little ones better,

and they make us just as much money because we own them. You know, we don't, of course, they're big risks. But, you know, so we kind of, like, receded from, like, that Hollywood pathway. The idea is, like, you go to Sunday, with a couple of films and then you start working with Searchlight

and then you start working with you move up to focus you know what I mean it's like a very very clear path of what a lot of people did but not really a lot like you know 25 people because it's a very narrow

corridor just a pipeline to Marvel or DC that's absolutely what it was and my brother and I definitely got offered some really big crazy stuff that we turned down because we realized

you know yeah we were courted by Marvel we were courted by like the Focker franchise we were recorded by you know we were offered the dictator

to direct there were a lot of people who were very interested in us not only because we did good dramatic comedy but we were known as like really good guys who could work with challenging people if need be you know because that's a

huge part of those franchises. It's a very underrated skill and nobody thinks about it, but you get in Hollywood and you start hearing about it real fast. And you know, and you feel it, you know, like a lot of these big comedies, for instance, are not about making the best movie. You have a franchise and your job is not, of course they want it to be as funny and as heartfelt as it can be, but your job is actually moving a movie from A to Z over the course of three years without anybody murdering anybody else. You know what I mean? And there are a lot. And there are a lot of directors that are known for their person murder yeah that they're in personality management

you know and that was really tough for mark and me because um you know big studios didn't really want to make exactly what we wanted to make at a high at a you know higher budget they wanted to suck us up into their world and use our skills to like essentially get their franchises made um you know without murder um and ultimately we turned away from that because we just did not, you know, we just wanted to make original art. And we had suffered so much and come so far, you know, we were like, let's go back to our little, you know,

pond that we swim in. It's pretty rare that a director could step into that and maintain a singular vision. Like, you know, Ryan Cooghler can do it. You know, Christopher Nolan did it. But, you know, there's a lot of people who kind of got chewed. up in that whole thing.

But like the money is, John, and he's like, I read something your brother had said, I think it was in a variety article, it was like, Jay could get offered, you know, $500,000 to be an actor and X, but if this other project that's gonna pay him $150 is just 10% better, he'll do that every time. And then like, you know, like how do you prevent yourself

from making those compromises? Especially it's like, you know, it's expensive to live. You've got kids and all. I got kids in LA. Even like the greatest artists, they'll go out and do the one so that they can put their kids through college or buy their beach house or whatever. Yeah, I mean, honestly, keeping my expenses low,

I don't buy stuff. I just don't buy stuff. I just want to make stuff. I think having an ascetic mentality, which I had to have for my first 10 years of my career, you know, I came up in Austin, Texas, you know, making $15,000 a year because that was what I needed to make

to keep doing my, thing um but it's also just my temperament like i just i want to be a part of beautiful transcendent art and um i have learned that you know what you do begets what you get um you know if you make if you are a part of something incredible um people look to that and they're they will hire you on something beautiful you know um going forward so i don't know i mean it's partially it's just like i'm an art nazi too i mean i just like i just all i want to do is make art and i want it to be as great as it can be and you know it's it is challenging at times and you know we live on the east side and we keep our expenses low and i mean that that's that's been an interesting part of it too because people

think that i have way more money than i have because they look at like the i mdb situation i'm like no my wealth is in the quality of the stuff that i get to make you know i and i do make a good living and I feel good about it. At least five figures. I mean, but for real, like, you know, what happens in Hollywood is you make a lot of money and people start fishing around if they could maybe sue you.

That happens sometimes too. Like, you know, I can't mention things that have happened. But people have sniffed around and figured out how much money we actually have and they're like, oh, what's that? Your litigation avoidance strategy. Yeah, litigate, this is, yeah. This is a little PSA, stay away.

There's nothing to get, you know? I mean, but it is a part of the philosophy of just like, I'm just here to make great art. And that's what allowed me to survive too, is just like doing the volume and just making great stuff. How do you balance having a singular artistic vision with the fact that it is a collaborative medium? Yeah.

And also a medium in which it's important to, you know, to take feedback from the right people. I mean, this is like in anything. Like you run your decisions by other people, you know, before you make those, especially early sprydy. They're like, you should get engaged. And I was like, early and often

that like maybe your idea isn't the best idea. You know, Jay doesn't suffer from that problem. But there is a balance between like, this is my vision and this is what I'm doing and the fact that there's a lot of other people involved. And sometimes feedback makes the, project better and in this case you know the story was a collaborative work between the two of you yeah i mean he was you're the most collaborative person i've ever worked with like it truly this man has

no ego and it's like the craziest thing is like or just an ego that i don't see um you know like there were no bad ideas like he was like yeah let's throw that in and like and after several drafts of writing some of that stuff left you know and then but like he really really does make it make it ours coming together first and then it's the cast and crew that you know before every single

day we get this is what I've never done this but Jay sets up like a lineup where everyone's like he just is like anybody want to say anything to start it all do a prayer circle yeah you know just to get the day going and it's like it's also because you know that I do that because

making a movie feels like war you know and you're trying to like put laughs and heartbreak into into a war zone it can't survive you know so i try to create you know just socially a world where everybody is welcome and everybody you know if somebody comes to work and and their dog died that day let's hear it because that that needs to that's part of a culture that i that i you know really learned with the transparent the television show that was on but um but yeah i mean um wait what were you talking about just collaborating and like and like having a vision yeah having a vision i mean

I mean, look, I think this is how I really feel about it is the best movies are made by dictators who are very benign and who include everybody else in the process. And, you know, we talked about it earlier. I do believe in serving my audience. And in particular with this story, I believe in serving Michael's story. So my, the way that I think about it, maybe this is like tip number two for up and coming filmmakers is, you know, when you start a movie, that movie is 100% yours

or in this case it's Michael's and mine you know it's his story that I'm telling and we're telling together and it is 100% ours and then every step of the way it becomes a little bit less you know we hire a DP we hire a producer and their feedback

comes in and we include that and it belongs to them now and then over time we have a test screening you have a test screening down here and now it's smart people are coming in telling us what's working what's not working and at the very end the movie no longer belongs to us and if you have done your job right as a director it belongs 100

percent to the audience so i think the process of making the film is is learning how to land this plane in the hearts and minds of audience members because we've already done our thing you know what i mean is just like we've already hugged and cried and laughed and high fives and almost got shot in Baltimore you know what I mean and then by the end it if it doesn't belong 100% to a stranger in a dark room that you will never have a conversation with you're not really doing your job and I think I um I had you know the beginning of my career I was co-directing with my brother so we didn't have that autortship it was it was already we were in receiving moving mode, you know, and that's what I, you know, you see something, you know how you feel

about it, but you got to talk to somebody else about it too. And that really helped train me. And so when I get on set, it's less about, this is how I wanted it. I wanted to be exactly that way. You're not doing what I want. You know, it's more about sitting back as an audience member. And, you know, sometimes it's really comfortable. You have a comfy video village and there's a tent around you, but sometimes you're just standing on a street in Baltimore and there's questionable activity going on in the street nearby you and you have a monitor this big and you have to really get in your mind and be like I'm in a movie theater in Pasadena in two years how is this affecting me and you know that's what I let lead me is like I guess like being possessed

by the audience that will come that's the communication that's what we all forget is this is a communication between Michael and me and strangers in a room that are two or three years away And that is a weird, long-winded thing to do, but the more that you just keep that in mind. And you're the first audience watching on the monitor. I'm the first audience, yeah. And if you're not entertained. If I'm not entertained, we're going to go again.

We've got to change it. Yeah, you know. There's something about that that's curious, though, because this open, this sort of openness that you have to have, this is a kind of expansive, you know, relationship with the thing and being able to, you know, kind of imagine what it's going to look like down the, road. How does that match up with, like, I think maybe you're kind of a prone to obsessiveness,

like you have obsessions, right? Like nobody is doing all these different things unless they like get obsessed with something and just like, you know, so. It's way too hard. But those are two different energies, right? They are. The obsessiveness could make you that dictatorial kind of director. Yeah, it's creator destroyer yin-yang is what it is. And so similar to it belongs to us and now it belongs to the audience early is creator and is destroyer

so in the early days it's yes and it's yes and Michael tell me about this how did that feel what what you know why did the belt break you know wait

holiday wait there's a mix along the way constantly creating constantly destroying you know and and in the destruction is

there has to be a ton of love, a ton of love in the destruction. But yeah, I mean, I'm sure there were plenty of times where I was like, we're going to redo this whole thing. On our first day of shooting, I was like, we're lopping off the first 10 pages of the script. How did that feel when I did that? I had to take a nap.

Yeah, very overwhelming, right? Yeah, I was like, oh, let me, and then now looking back on it, Like that scene, we were trying to do something that didn't need to happen and that we can, and that also we can see later on. We can, you know. But yeah, I was like, you know, how are we going to do it?

Like, that's, we're going to start with that, okay, you know. It's traumatic. The whole process is traumatic. I mean, you know, Mark and I, because we failed so much and because we put movies up that didn't work, you know, I got trained early on and it's just like by any means necessary. this isn't about me, this isn't, here's the thing.

The whole mechanism of filmmaking, everyone wants you to say, we got it and we can move on, right? That's what everybody wants. That's what the producers want. That's what the assistant director who runs the set wants. They just want you to say that.

And if you don't say that, everyone is in pain. Because as fun as making a movie is, it's probably three in the morning. People are underslept. You know, people are having a tough time. who have never done this before and they're like,

I thought it was gonna be two hours, what the hell is this? Yeah, well, why am I here? You're having personal conversations with extras to convince them to stay. And what Mark and I realized early on is like, you do not leave until you get it. And if you have to leave when you didn't get it,

you're coming back. You're coming back. So there is a lot of critical. Constant pressure to compromise. Constant pressure. That's what people are always like, how do you not compromise? And I'm like, every minute.

You are compromising. Every decision is a compromise. You are. Every decision is a compromise. That is 100% correct. And, you know, but ultimately, you're just, it's all about nudges and fighting for the best you can get in that moment. You know, sometimes an actor shows up on set, and they're supposed to be super peppy in hosting a party.

And they are grumpy as hell. They haven't slept. I thought you're not going to tell the story. That's not about you. And sometimes you have to re-rig a scene to work with what, somebody has to offer. And you also have to make sure that it works in the context

of the story that you're telling. So it is a tireless job. It is, you know, it's a 16 hour a day job for sure. And that's, if you're lucky, you know. So when you see a clip of an actor losing his shit on the set, it's like important to, you know,

remember that and contextualize that. 100%. Yeah, like I'm thinking of, and there's that great clip of David Lynch. Have you seen that where he's just, somebody's like, we got to move on. Time. He's like, who gives a shit about time?

Who gives a shit about time? He's like, I don't care how long a scene is. It's gonna be as long as it's supposed to be. And he's like screaming. True. And I think like, you know, I don't think, you know, actors sometimes, like we're using all of our emotions, you know? Like, so we might not be in the best mood, you know,

because we have to do this one thing, you know, that's kind of taking that mood from you. Yeah, I mean, that's the thing is, is, I love actors and you know I whatever they need to do besides abusing other people that that gets them to where they need to be I support it and I love them and I help them along

I mean a hundred percent when I hear an actor losing their mind on set you know I've experienced it myself as an actor where your body you know if you get yourself in a position where you know somebody's trying to kill you on set which happens all the time your body doesn't know the difference your body feels like it's

somebody's trying to kill you and just because somebody said cut and you have two minutes to walk over to craft services and get yourself a bagel doesn't mean that you've shed the feeling that somebody's trying to kill you right over there and they're right over there you know that's

it's real it's very very real and in general I mean I feel like part of what this movie is about and part of what making art is about and part of what you're trying to create in the world is like understanding and compassion for whoever is going through,

whatever they're going through, because everybody's out here doing their best, you know? And in particular, with filmmaking, it's unbelievably challenging. It's unbelievably challenging. It's shocking that anything gets made at all. It's shocking. And when something's good?

Yeah. When people come onto a set, Michael's family, when they came out of the set, they were like, I can't believe you guys are out here doing this. All that y'all been out here for three weeks in the middle of the night. like trouncing around Baltimore at four in the morning, like, how are you standing?

And we're like, because we're idiots and we love what we're doing. But it is, it is astounding. My dad came on and said, I think his call time was like 11.30 at night. He's like, you need me there that late? Like, what are you going to be doing in Baltimore City that late at night? And I was like, we're shooting a movie, dad.

And then he comes, and he did a great job, you know? Yeah. And, yeah. I mean, literally, every single one of my family members are like in this movie. So funny. Yeah. Um, there's a difference between, uh, improv, yes, and, yes, anding people and, and, like, you know, pathos and dramatic acting. Like, did you study that also? Like this, I mean, you've done a bunch of TV and stuff like that, but this is like, this is the first time I've done something that was like, full on, like, like, getting to do so many different things. Like, I love doing comedy. It's so much fun. But like, you know, my favorite actor is like, Philips Zimmer Hoffman.

And he could be a killer in a long-came Polly and make you laugh so hard throughout it and be one of the best actors of all time. And so getting an opportunity to like have scenes in this movie that are, you know, emotional and dramatic. Like that's what I love doing. Like I, you know, I went to University of Maryland and studied theater there,

which me and Larry David came out of there. That's pretty good, though. Yeah, yeah. And Kermit the Frog, Jim Henson. All right. But, yeah, like, I think. And also, like, with sobriety, like, that shifted a little bit where, like,

oh, I don't always have to be the funniest guy in the room. I can just be, like, my, I can show up and be the best listener and be in, like, you know, the best actor I can be and serve the scene, you know, same way. I didn't know whether he could be dramatic or not. Yeah. I mean, you had to be wondering. I had a total leap of faith.

It was a total leap of faith. I just got to know Michael and it was like, he has it. I mean, you know, we'd get together and tell stories and cry and he was emotionally available. And yeah, your sobriety was a huge part of it. We never would have made this movie if you weren't sober. It would have been a different story. But also, like, I wouldn't have hired an unknown unsober person

to, you know, who was having trouble to put at the front of my movie. But similarly, with Liz Larsen, our lead actress, you know, that was on blind faith. You know, I met with her, hadn't worked with her. I'd never seen her in anything before. She's a musical theater person. She was starring in Transparent, the musical, and she was stunning and outrageous. And I was like, I don't know, I've never seen you before.

I'm going to work with you. And she was like, ha, that sounds funny. And then I called her, and we met, and she told me her story, which is a big part of the film. And I called Michael Aftner. I said, she's it. we're doing it and we didn't do any chemistry read or anything i just like you know you're just taking the temperature of how people are and what they are like and um i mean it's probably you have probably have similar feeling when someone's coming on your podcast you know when it's

going to be wonderful um and and i had that feeling about both of them yeah and getting to work with liz is like it made dramatic acting so like dramatic acting but like that easy because like you just connect with her and it's like you're kind of you're just lost in the moment like you're just there and same with Olivia like you know truly like we got so lucky with Olivia plays your fiancee yeah yeah yeah and then my some good moments with her like it's pretty funny when she unleashes on you oh my god she's a killer man she goes full in and then my my actual fiancee is my love interest daughter so Oh, wow.

Yeah, so. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah, and that was like, that was such a fun scene doing that with Brian Mendez and MCAT and Jess and my niece Zoe. So Zoe's the little girl in it. And like, if we don't have everybody being solid actors and that, like, you know, it would have been a disaster

and that scene's one of my favorites, like, you know, and it's all because of, I mean, Brian got hired the day before he came down and he just did such an amazing job. like he's Conway, you know, and we keep that wide shot in with the camo pants because like that's Baltimore, Baltimore Cammo. Is a man wearing camo pants and a camo shirt in Ravens Cammo colors.

I mean, that's an all-time costume that guy's got on. Jay, I mean, you've had your own journey with acting. I mean, for many years, you were the guy behind the camera. Yeah. And then I would, you know, see you here and there. I mean, I watched transparent some of it, but I didn't watch like all of it.

But where, and I told you as much, like you really left off the screen in industry. Like that character was unreal, dude. Thank you. I mean, I've seen a lot of, you know, hedge fund types or whatever on television shows. And I love that show industry, but you did something like all your own

with that character that made it pretty unique and indelible. Thank you. Yeah, that, yeah, I started acting when I was 40 years old. It happened because my friends who were, directors, if someone dropped out, they would often hire me. They were like, look, we need a guy to come. Jay's comfortable on set. Set, as I was saying, is a traumatic place to be. Very few people who can really be fully comfortable on set. And I'm not totally comfortable, but I've just been on so many that, you know, you can really just relax into it. And, you know, I would come

and do a day player role and I wouldn't try to upsell my role. You know, a lot of day players will come on and be like, what if I said this monologue? In addition to saying, what would you like to eat, sir? You know, they're definitely going to bring me back. Yeah, I think they're bringing me back. So I just started on accident and eventually it just leveled up and leveled up. And yeah, during COVID, I got to go to Wales and shoot industry, which is this BBC HBO show. And they offered me the role.

And it was very unusual role for me to play like a killer, you know, hedge fund guy. But I Speaking of Transparent Transparent was Amazon's first show And we We thought we were making a web show On the place where you buy your toilet paper at the time And six months later

I was at the Golden Globes sitting next to Jeff Bezos Who ran Amazon Who runs Amazon And I got to know him And I sort of modeled the character On him a little bit And it was interesting Because I was able to bring a lot to it

for you know these brits you know they uh people who come with a lot of money you know don't have to be nice in england as much as in the united states because you know money is real old in england and um you know but yeah i was able to sort of bring this um this sort of scrappy um killer vibe to to that character and it was a it was kind of a big break in my career it definitely like showed people because you know prior of that i was people were casting me for me I was pretty much, you could be in some version of a movie that you would make and it's very familiar. But the industry role was like an extreme departure from that.

Yeah, I had to, I mean, it was the toughest role I'd ever take it. I mean, that language, it's almost like learning another language when you're speaking hedge fund talk because the creators had come from that world. It was very inside baseball. And so you had to know the dialogue so well that you could actually sort of like intimate the emotional value of what was happening because, you know, It's, even as a viewer, it's hard to keep track of exactly what's happening. Like, it's only because the actors on that show are so good that you can understand it.

So that was a pretty wild show and definitely broke my career open as an actor. What did you learn from hanging out with Jeff Bezos? Like, what can you share about it? Just down to everything. You know, what that hang was like. That hang was like, it was an odd experience because everybody, So early days of transparent, you know, you're talking about 12 people at a table, at the Golden Globes, at the Emmys, at the Peabodies, none of whom had ever been there before. So we're all just showing up, including Jeff Bezos, you know, showing up trying to figure out what this is and what this means.

you know I do I mean very friendly guy very excited about what we were doing you know I mean it was a huge

windfall for them to have like their first show do incredibly well I the main thing that I remember is he would show up and disappear

through odd doors and we were told that there were helicopters involved so even at these events like you know Brad Pitts at the Golden Globes guys and Bezos is going in and out he has the special treatment because I mean you're you're a nation at that point yeah yes there's a lot of bodyguards there's a lot of security there's I mean it is the operation is the only thing that

I can liken it to is one of my good friends is um grandson of Jimmy Carter and we when he got married, Jimmy Carter came to the wedding. And like the wedding was a little bit about my friend John's wedding and mostly about how to get Jimmy Carter in and out of a wedding. And you know, it's a really wild operation to see the Golden Globes is a wild operation, you know, and obviously like a target, you know. They're checking under cars with mirrors and wand. that can detect things.

So just that operation is huge. And then getting Jeff Bezos into it is totally insane. And then he's just sitting, you know, eating cold food like we are and snacking and just like wondering what's next. So it was a totally surreal. And then his ear pierces like,

your submarine's ready. Yeah. He just disappears through the floor. Yeah. Yeah. But no invite to the wedding. No, no, no invite to the wedding. Michael, did you get invited?

I didn't go. I think I was on tier two. Yeah. Yeah. Which was, I believe, apps, serving apps? Yeah, exactly. Sure. If carrot top couldn't go, I'd be there.

Okay, sounds good. We were talking a little bit ago about creativity, getting sober, and realizing that not only can you still tap into your creativity, it becomes this like, you know, kind of rebirth of it. but how do each of you think about creativity now? Like when you sit down to write, like you're collaborating on this script, but, you know, writing is still a solitary act

and you kind of have to inhabit a certain state. Are you, you know, a Stephen Pressfield, court the muse, get your ass in the chair kind of person? Is it a situation where you're dancing around and acting it out? Like, how does it work for you? I think Stephen Pressfield's book is actually, the one book on screenwriting

that's actually of value and uncreated creativity. It is just about presence. It's interesting because when you were talking about what it meant to be sober and just becoming present and relying on people, other people for your sobriety,

that is kind of how I think about creativity now is like you know I mean it might sound woo-woo but it is really about just trying to be a clear channel for what does god want of me or the god or whatever your higher power is but like you know being of service in terms of like you know what does the world need now what am i excited about you know

what is coming through me who else can i serve you know who can be my um co-conspirator who's a person i want to spend um years with making a movie who do i want to hang out with Who do I love? Who's going to love me when times get hard? It's weirdly, I think, like, it's like kind of creating the thing that we're all missing now, which is the village, which we have moved away from, and we all live in our pods with our computers. And if we're lucky, our spouse and our kids, you know, but like, and so I think it is, it's all that feeling of like, you know, trying to create something that matters and that can be. given to other people and the older I get the more that I'm just trying to purify that channel and make it as clean as possible because it's just not about me and the more that it's about me the muddier and grosser it feels of course there are things inside of me like I needed this movie I needed this movie as much as Michael needed this movie I was fallow as an artist I was scared to direct a movie without my brother.

I was terrified that I was gonna make a movie and it was gonna suck and I was gonna be like, oh, he was the special sauce. I didn't wanna be, I didn't wanna be. So that's the dark secret, like the insecurity. Oh, you know, they'll finally see that it was just all Mark. It was all Mark. And Mark is like, I'm, you know, like Mark said,

I'm the guy who'll do the $150 movie and I'm more inward and Mark's very outward Mark's very outward in the world, much more visible and present. And he's a producer by nature. And, you know, he really likes, he, like, he wants to go to South by Southwest and give a talk about all the stuff we talk about. I'm just like, I'm just having enough trouble, you know, pushing this movie through the eye of a needle, you know. So we've always been that way, you know, where I'm more inward and he's more outward. And that's been an interesting part of us doing things.

separately is us having to become whole people again because you sort of compartmentalize and you, you know, he got really good at being outward and I got really good at being inward. So there's been a lot of ink spilled around this, you know, this relationship evolving. Yeah, yes. Is there anything you wanna say about that?

Yeah, I mean, you know, I would say that like Mark and I started it as to, immigrant kids to Hollywood, you know, who were like linked arm and arm like we talked about and felt like we needed to do everything in lockstep in order to make a splash enough to where we wouldn't have to like go back to Louisiana, go back to New Orleans, which is the story as we know of Hollywood is like people move and then they move back. They get sent home, you know. And, you know, as we progressed, you know, I think our first big hiccup is Mark became a famous actor and all i wanted to do was to be you know the cohen brothers 2.0 with him and that process was

you know it was very difficult because you know to get a movie made you have to obey that movie that movie is so much bigger than you you know and mark was very unavailable for a long time and it took me a long time to figure out how to navigate that i created a tv show called togetherness and and you know he was able to to star in it and we were able to work on together um and over time it took us a long time to realize that at my heart of hearts i just wanted to be a filmmaker a writer director and mark didn't really want that you know he wanted to be an actor and a producer um but you know um we're two guys who felt lucky to be here we didn't want to rock the boat um you know uh it it it was a long i was it was it was it was

like a very loving conscious uncoupling but it took a really long time it was like a tough tough process you know um i felt like he was leaving me early on and he felt like i was leaving him later on um and it was kind of like um you know getting like a super friendly divorce where we were trying to take care of each other as much as possible and we're finally at a place now where we run this company together and we still support other people and we support other people and we support each other in the ways that we can but um it was it was a long time coming and you know it it was tough on me i mean it definitely the reason why i didn't make a movie for 14 years and you know um it took me it that was what was you know super scary about you know making a new

movie and and you know um but you know i i just tried to keep it small and trust my heart and And luckily this thing came out to be a dream come true. So it's so much more than just this is my first time directing. Oh, it's so much more. It's all my worst fears. Because if you could just, you know, get some momentum with this, then it alleviates whatever weird tension and energy, you know. It alleviates tension.

It will improve your relationship with your brother. Absolutely. Because if you're both fully expressed in doing what you're doing, then you can come together. Then we can come together and actually be brought. and make art when it makes sense for us to make art together. But no, it was absolutely terrifying. And, you know, just, yeah, I mean, I, you know, the fear is like, yeah, I'm, Mark is the special sauce.

I can't make anything without him. He doesn't want to make movies with me, so I don't make movies anymore. That's honestly was in the back of my head the whole time, you know. Well, this was the growth and evolution that you need it. Like you needed, you needed, you needed to do. this as an artist for yourself i did i i deeply deeply needed it and um and i think similar to how you guys have talked about with a a like you know i i had probably seven scripts they were all more

expensive i had made a movie in 14 years so people in hollyware like yeah you're not a filmmaker anymore you you you got to make a movie recently to show them that you're a filmmaker and you're still good those movies were more expensive there were a lot more personal stories about me, which I can tell those stories now. But like, I tried to move a lot of those stories forward. And it was a really tough time with the pandemic and with the strikes. And, you know, the timing just didn't work. And I just kept retreating, kept retreating, kept retreating.

And it felt like, it felt negative at first. And then I realized I was coming back to my roots and, you know, how I sort of invented this way of making films, which is like using real people and telling their stories and honoring them and, you know, doing it hand. made in a small city somewhere or a medium-sized city somewhere. Or no one will bother us. Yeah, where no one will bother us, exactly.

But it was ultimately, I think, just serving Michael and his story and knowing that it wasn't about me and that I could really focus on him, that to me was my personal linchpin because I don't have that thing in me that's just like, oh, my story needs to get out there, this needs to be told. I'd much rather serve somebody else. And once we got into that pipeline, I was like, it just flowed like that. One of the reasons why I think it's being really well received.

And we should say like, we're recording this before it's out in the world. Like we're talking about film festival audiences. So it's like these people wanna like the movie, you know, but all the reviews are like incredibly good right now. Yes. I think it speaks to this yearning that we have for something that feels real and authentic, you know. And the movies are just, they're so big now,

they're so, they're so, you know, special affected out and the stories are so, you know, unrelatable. Everything is supersized so much that we haven't been served, like we haven't been nourished, you know, with just like the human story that we can relate to that reminds us that we're human when we see people that look real and feel real, because they are real people.

And they're just having a human problem that they're trying to figure out. And there was so much value in like casting Michael and he's the guy. This essentially happened in spirit and a lot of these events are true. That was a huge value to me because I was after exactly that.

It's like feeling something that is undeniably real and has value. And, you know, I think, There are some good superhero movies out there, but I said this once at a SAG Screen Actors Guild event. And I thought it was going to be a lot more controversial than it was. But I don't think people's thinking was, I'm not trying to say I was so advanced,

but I just think people were not quite thinking this way, but I think the younger generation is thinking this way. And my idea around it is that our cultural mythology is broken. people talk about this across various medium but I think it's actually most visible in filmmaking because ultimately our cultural mythology in America right now is represented in a superhero movie and that myth is

there's bad people and there's good people we're the good people and the bad people are very, very scary but what we need to do is lift weights and buy more guns and kill all those bad people and when we do that everything will be good and nothing could be more broken, nothing could be more true in terms of our foreign policy, nothing could be, you know, more dangerous for this world

and where we're going. And, you know, I think, you know, I'm not trying to save the world with these tiny little movies, but, you know, Joseph Campbell said stories are equipment for living and it took me a long, long time to understand what that really meant. You said it earlier. It's like, you know, a story is a way to change people's minds

and change people's culture. I saw it with transparent. You know, people had no tolerance for trans people. And suddenly people were watching this show and there was a trans person in their living room and they were laughing and enjoying them and watching them operate in the world. And so, you know, to be able to contribute to our cultural mythology

and to tell stories about people who are trying to recover and, you know, two steps forward, one step backwards and making us laugh and falling in love and getting their hearts broken. And, you know, and frankly, like using Michael's journey and the courage that he displayed to recover and to stay sober, that is additive to our culture and it's additive to your Saturday night

when you're like, boy, that was a tough week, you know. because I think the superhero movies feel really good in the moment and then you go home and they just feel so far away they're not really like nourishing the soul in a way that stories can. I think you're not leaving talking about it. You're just like, oh, yeah, that was good. Right, right, right.

Yeah, yeah. And I think the best thing about our movie is that like there's conversation afterwards. You know, like when we did test screenings, like, you know, like Jay would ask a question and the audience was like, split and he's like we have a movie now because now that audience can go and talk about well i saw it as this did you see it as that you know and i don't know i just personally like i like seeing movies that have flawed characters that are trying to kind of do their best in their everyday life

but still mess up you know like my guy is by no means but no one's perfect and that's the whole thing that I think we need to, because I think so much of the superhero movies, these people are perfect, you know, or, you know. Or they have flaws in very like, simple ways that just, you know, it just feels like a token flaw. I mean, I think it's very astute. This actually came up on the podcast I was doing yesterday

with this like Jungian psychotherapist and he was talking about, you know, how modern culture has been, you know, drained of a shared mythology and we've outsourced it to, you know, basically the superhero movies that we see. And these are the stories that create, you know, our kind of sense of meaning, you know,

in the world, which is really fascinating, but obviously makes sense when, you know, we become more secular and that we don't have that kind of community gathering spots and the, you know, spiritual institutions and churches and things like that. Like, what are we gathering around? Well, we're gathering around, you know,

the cinema and these ideas that we're, you know, we're all kind of collectively absorbing simultaneously. But for the filmmaker who does want to speak to the human condition, given the business model of Hollywood right now, they have to do it within the context of a superhero story. And there are good versions of that and not so good one. There are.

So, you know, when I think about that, I think about like what Tony Gilroy is doing with Andor, which I think is just some of the most exceptional storytelling. Michael Clayton is like one of the best movies ever. It's my favorite movie. Same. It's like I literally watch it every three months. Yes.

It's brilliant. It's like reading the Bible. I actually saw a clip of Clooney the other day. He was talking about that last scene where he's driving in the car. And they're like, it's some of your best acting ever. Like how are you doing this? Oh, I saw that clip. Yeah, yeah.

And he was like, well, be honest with you, we did know what we were doing. This was like the last shot. And Tony was just like, yeah, just go in the car and just ask to go somewhere. And everybody on the street in New York, is yelling, Clooney, George. While that sacred moment was happening. He's just trying not to last the whole time. But it's this incredible for people who haven't seen it.

It's this like very long shot. He's in the back of the cab and it's just driving. This is the end of the movie. Which is like the quintessential like and like this is how movies in the 70s ended. Yeah, it's like it's a it's definitely a, you know, like a shout out to that. It's very effective but then you hear like,

oh this is well now like when you make a movie, what you were saying like I'm gonna in Baltimore, it's like 2 a.m. And they, you know, there's, there's a drug deal going on around the corner and the cops are about to come and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, the reality of that. But Kathleen Kennedy should put Tony Gilroy

in charge of anything having to do with Star Wars. Yeah, 100%. For, you know, for, you know, years and years to come. As long as he'll, he's willing to do it and he should make every decision. We're kind of great. Yeah. Let's, uh, let's end this with a little insider or inspiration

for the aspiring artists. You know, I think there's one thing that both of you guys share, which is that both of you are people who pretty early in life had a good sense of what you wanted to do. You know, and I think that's unusual. Like, that's rare. Not everybody feels that way, but I think everybody has some kind of creative inspiration.

They want to give voice to some idea that they have and, you know, in any number of ways. And society doesn't do a very good job of encouraging that. So, you know, how would you give words to that person who's, I mean, it sounds cliche, but like, don't give up, you know? Like, I had similar to you, like, so many jobs that like, like didn't go my way, you know, over and over and over again, testing for shows, doing stuff.

And I'm like, why am I still doing it? Like, you know, that thought of like, is it time to go back to Baltimore? Is it time to call it? You know, and it just takes, makes one person in the field of Hollywood to be yes. And then I think Jay even said it to me once, like Hollywood loves being the second yes.

You know, and, you know, like just do whatever you, like fail, fail over and over and over again, get back up, fail, fail some more. But just like know that like, no matter what, like if this is what you really want, want to do for your life, anything in the creative field, just do it and not worry about what other people are telling you to do or not do, you know.

And I would be remiss if I didn't, since we mentioned Zach earlier, you know, my siblings and my cousin started a foundation in his name, ZTP Foundation that helps out people in Zach's age range in Maryland to, to, to basically like sponsor them to go to rehab. And so, yeah, and I just wanted to make sure I mentioned that before because, you know,

like, especially with sobriety too, like, you know, the term keep coming back, but also like, just stay because like, don't leave before the miracle. Yeah, yeah, don't leave before the miracle because right now I am living like the most miraculous life And it's 100% due to my sobriety. And I'm so grateful, like, every day, you know,

that like, that this little tiny movie about my life based on my life and made in my hometown with family and friends and with somebody that took a chance on me, it can happen. You know, it really can. And I'm living proof. And I just am so happy.

I absolutely love my life today, and I was this close to missing it all. Well, I can't top that. That's pretty good. That's a good one. That's a pretty good one. I mean, you can definitely top it, you're like... Oh, yeah.

I mean, I guess the extra piece of advice that would give for up-and-coming filmmakers and artists, everyone is a little bit of a riff on the perfect day, which I know you're a huge fan of. and it's you know it's i call it making good days um and i feel like my job is just to make the best day i can make on any given day and i i do a lot of thinking about what's going to happen tomorrow the night before if something doesn't feel right or if i feel too overloaded i'll try and slide something to later in the week um and it's specifically with art making it really comes down to are you going to be making art tomorrow are you going to do it because like I said a lot of people like to talk about making art and they don't make art it's also way easier to talk about making art making art involves you know fail repeat fail repeat

so the other thing that's really tricky and there's no judgment on this but a lot of people want to have made art they want to be at the Oscars. They want to be at the Golden Gloves, whatever it may be. And I'll just put it out here this way is the real artists, most of them don't want to be at those events. They would rather be at home continuing to make their art. So in terms of merging those things, in terms of making a really good day and making your art, even at this point in my life, I find it hard to carve out two or three hours to make art on a Tuesday. I have to really be concerted about it because you know, people are banging on your door to do everything in this world,

to pay bills, to, you know, to move your damn car, to whatever it is that's going on. People are always banging on your door to do stuff and it's never to make an original, you know, earth-shattering piece of art. You know, no one is doing that. That is up to you to do it. There's too many emails from your kid's school

that you have to read. How do people do it? I don't know. That could be a full-time job. Is answering your kids' schools, emails, and attending their events and doing fundraising for your kids' school. But you're happy you had them and you love it. Absolutely. 100%.

As one of my friends said, having children is 51% worth it. But, yeah, I really do believe that, you know, and really be honest with yourself. It's like, how much art do you want to make in a day? You know, and really tuning in. Because the more that I go, it really is, it's less about making art and more just about me being true to myself and just witnessing how much art is going to come out of that. Because I'm not really interested anymore in forcing art because that creates collapse, you know, like overworking creates collapse, you know, and of course we have to feed our families and we have to do all the things that we need to do. but I mean to me it ultimately it comes down to tuning into who you are and listening

and that's what's going to tell you what you uniquely have to offer the world because like you said we all have our heroes and we want to be like them but sometimes we're not like them ultimately or what we uniquely have to offer is not what they have to offer um tuning into that thing is not what's taught in film school. It's not taught in our culture. That's why your podcast is so incredible, is it helps me tune in to what I'm doing and why I'm here and what gives me life. So I think that's the best piece of advice I can give to any artist. It's a pretty good advice, don't you think? Yeah, I mean, he's the killer. He's pretty good. He knows what he's doing. Yeah, it's about, you know, integrity with

like integrating who you are. Like your art is an expression of your authentic voice. You're not out there to like get invited to a party or be validated for it. Like the reward is the work, which is a reflection of the inner self. And I've been to those parties where like, I wasn't sober and we would be writing

the biggest screenplay ever. You know, midway through the night, you know, doing a lot. and all this, like all that stuff, we never talked about that screenplay again, you know. It's like doing the work and actually- Yeah, because the people who are actually doing the thing are not at the parties because they're doing the thing.

And they're probably invited and they choose not to go because like they're more compelled by, you know, the pull, the yearn to like express themselves and you know, time's precious. And if you're doing that at a high level, there are people pulling on you all the time and tempting you with, you know, all kinds of delicious offers to go here, do this or that.

Yeah, yeah. Speaking of which, like the movie's not out yet, but is your phone ringing? Are you getting, is there like, you know, a little bit of like activity going on? There's a little, way there wasn't before. There's a little bit of stuff happening, but not, you know, nothing crazy yet.

The movie hasn't come out yet, but I'm sure. I just want, I wanted to come out. I wanted to be super successful and all I want for you is to like go back to Baltimore and just walk down the street and have, like, and you can be like Clooney in the back of the cab,

but like the, yeah, that's... Stratel! Like, hometown hero, you know? Yeah, you know? Yeah, that would be... We are having a huge premiere in Baltimore at the classic theater there. Yes, the Senator Theater

on September 10th, I believe. And, yeah, it's... Do you do anything here in L.A.? Yeah, we're gonna have a few events here. We're gonna show it videos. We'll, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I would love you to be there. If you want to see it again, yeah, that would be amazing.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we're going to have a few events here. We're going to have premieres in New York. We're going to, Michael and I are going to do an old school road show where we go to like 10 or 12 cities. We're going to do press. We're going to introduce movies. We're going to really personalize the experience.

That's like a Kevin Smith vibe. Yeah, we're going to go like Boston, Chicago, Austin, Houston, Baltimore, Nashville, Seattle, Seattle, and New York. And they're gonna fly us around and we're gonna like go and be there in person and you know, Michael's gonna cry on stage after and say he's glad to be alive. Yeah, I'm super vulnerable.

And we gotta thank IFC for all of that. Yeah, I've seen Seapan films. Yeah, Seaband Films have been really. It's been incredible. Yeah. Well, you guys did an amazing job. It's a really beautiful movie. Thank you for having us.

Thank you for supporting us. And we'll see it. Yeah. Thanks for spending a couple hours of me, man. This is great. This is awesome. I've been my favorite show. What are you talking about, man?

Secretly, I want to just host a like a movies podcast, you know, like... You could do that, Rich. You could do that. We'll see. Yeah, I think so. Appreciate you guys. Thank you, Rich. Yeah, thanks so much for doing this.

And thanks. Thank you. Thanks. Thank you. That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guests, including links and resources related to everything

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You know what I'm going to do.