The Rich Roll Podcast - Jimmy Chin & Chai Vasarhelyi On The Making of ‘Free Solo’ & Living Beyond Fear

Episode Date: December 3, 2018

If you enjoyed my conversations with adventure athletes Alex Honnold (RRP 351), Conrad Anker (RRP 170), Hilaree Nelson (RRP 364) and Colin O'Brady (RRP 207 & 235), then you are going to flip for today’s episode with Chai Vasarhelyi & Jimmy Chin — the dynamic and talented filmmaking duo behind the stunning new documentary Free Solo — a beautiful cinematic celebration of human possibility. A graduate of Princeton University hailing from New York City, Chai is an award-winning film director and producer with Hungarian, Chinese, and Brazilian roots who cut her filmmaking teeth under the legendary Mike Nichols. Her first film, A Normal Life, won Best Documentary at the Tribeca Film Festival in 2003. Her second film, Youssou N’Dour: I Bring What I Love, was released in theaters in the US and internationally. The film won numerous awards, including the Special Jury Prize at the Middle East International Film Festival in 2008 and a nomination for the Pare Lorentz Award at the 2009 International Documentary Association Awards. An award-winning cinematographer and director in his own right, Chai’s husband and creative partner Jimmy is also a professional climber, skier, mountaineer, 18-year member of The North Face Athlete Team and National Geographic Explorer. Over the past 20 years, he has led or participated in cutting-edge climbing and ski mountaineering expeditions to all seven continents and made the first and only American ski descent from the summit of Mount Everest. Known for his ability to capture the authentic in some of the world’s most high-risk environments, Jimmy has worked with many of the greatest explorers, adventurers and athletes of our time, documenting their exploits in the most challenging conditions and locations in the world. He has garnered numerous awards shooting on assignment for publications, including The New York Times Magazine, Vanity Fair and Outside Magazine, and has directed commercial work for a wide range of clients, including Apple, Chase, Pirelli and The North Face. Jimmy’s technical acumen matched with Chai’s storytelling superpowers have created two of the most compelling documentary masterpieces in recent memory. The highest grossing independent documentary of 2015, Meru* won the Sundance Audience Award, made the Oscars shortlist and was lauded by Variety as one of the best sports documentaries of its type in recent memory. Their latest collaboration, and the primary focus of today’s conversation, is Free Solo – a riveting, intimate, unflinching, edge-of-your-seat, sweaty-palm-inducing thrill ride portrait of Alex Honnold as he prepares to achieve his lifelong dream: a death defying quest to free solo the world’s most famous rock – the 3,200 face of El Capitan in Yosemite — without a rope. It's an accomplishment the NYT called “one of the greatest athletic feats of any kind ever.” I concur — and cannot recommend this masterful film more highly. Enjoy! Rich

I think that making films is hard. So if you're going to make a film, it should be about something that is incredibly meaningful to you. That's why you would use your voice. Find that meaning. And it's okay to wait until you find it, or bumble along the way and find it later, but it should be meaningful.

Yeah, I would echo that. I mean, it's a bigger question. It's about finding your purpose and finding what gives you meaning and finding things that you're inspired and passionate about. Because like Chai said, it's very hard to make films, but when you find something that gives you that drive and purpose,

you have to be relentless regardless. It's a lot easier when you find something that has a lot of meaning behind it. That's Chai Vazarelli and Jimmy Chin. And this is The Rich Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey, everybody. How you guys doing? What's happening? Greetings, podcast enthusiasts of planet Earth.

My name is Rich Roll. I am your host. Welcome to my little corner of the world. I got to say up front, you are in for a treat today. If you enjoyed my conversations with climbers, Alex Honnold, Conrad Anker, or Hillary Nelson, then you're gonna freak out for today's episode with Chai Vazarelli and Jimmy Chin, the stunningly talented dynamic filmmaking duo behind the new documentary, Free Solo,

which is this beautiful cinematic celebration of human possibility. A graduate of Princeton University, hailing from New York City, Chai is a director and a producer with several award-winning documentaries to her name, who cut her filmmaking teeth working under none other than the legend himself, Mike Nichols. working under none other than the legend himself, Mike Nichols. Chai's husband and creative partner, Jimmy, is also an award-winning cinematographer and director, as well as this incredible climber, adventurer, photographer,

and North Face athlete, really known for his ability to capture the authentic in some of the world's most challenging and high-risk environments. Jimmy's technical acumen, when matched with Chai's storytelling superpowers, has created two of the most compelling documentary masterpieces in recent memory. First up was Meru, the highest-grossing independent documentary of 2015. That movie won the Sundance Audience Award and made the Oscar shortlist and was lauded by Variety as one of the best sports documentaries of its type in recent memory. And their latest super twin powers activate collaboration. And really the primary

focus of today's conversation is Free Solo. Free Solo is, I just cannot say enough good things about this movie. It is a riveting, intimate, unflinching, edge-of-your-seat, sweaty, palm-inducing, thrill-ride portrait of Alex Honnold as he prepares to achieve his lifelong dream, a death-defying quest to free Solo, the world's most famous rock, the 3,200-foot face of El Capitan in Yosemite, without a rope. Let that sink in for a moment. Without a rope. It's an accomplishment the New York Times called one of the greatest athletic feats of any kind ever, and I second that notion. of any kind ever. And I second that notion. I had the honor of attending the film's premiere in Los Angeles a few months back. And even though I was able to give Alex a big hug moments before the screening, and he was like sitting just feet away from me in the theater. And of course, everybody in the theater knows that the story ends well. There were audible gasps throughout the entire screening. My palms could

not stop sweating. I was spellbound. This movie is a thrill. I cannot recommend it more highly. It is truly masterful. But there's so much more to the story of this film and to Jimmy and Chai and their collaboration than meets the eye. And we're going to dive into all of that in a couple few, but first. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing

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To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. Find the best treatment option for you or a loved one. Again, go to recovery.com. Okay, Jimmy and Chai. Jimmy and Chai are incredible. I'm just so excited about this conversation. It's a discourse about the power of story to inspire, to open people's eyes to human possibility. We discussed the cross-pollination

of Jimmy and Chai's respective talents, how Chai's strong background in storytelling and serious non-fiction documentary work perfectly complements Jimmy's beautiful cinematographer's eye and his 20 years of adventurous climbing expertise. We talk about the essence, the efficiency, the purity, the beauty of soloing, and what makes Alex so uniquely genius. It's not just the scope and the difficulty of this climb, but it's really his intentional way of life. And the diligence, the preparation, the attention to detail, the diaries and the memory of maneuvers that he put into this attempt. And it's also about his relationship with fear and with death and with his girlfriend

and his friends and family. We talk about why Jimmy and Chai chose to break the fourth wall in this movie and weave the filming experience and the filmmakers into the cinematic narrative. And we dive into the importance of trust and the very serious ethical implications, ethical questions posed in making a film like this when there is this very real possibility that's always looming that their good friend and the film's protagonist could very well die. In addition, I urge you to check out the YouTube edition of this episode at youtube.com forward slash richroll,

which features not only the full conversation, but it's also supplemented with clips from the movie itself. It's really cool. And again, the podcast is also now available on Spotify for all you Android lovers. It's a great honor to again, the podcast is also now available on Spotify for all you Android lovers. It's a great honor to have Chai and Jimmy here today to share the story behind their magic. So let's get on with it. I've always been conflicted about shooting a film

about free-souling just because it's so dangerous. It's hard to not imagine your friend falling through the frame to his death. I think when he's free-souling, that's when he feels the most alive, most everything. How can you even think about taking it away from somebody? No mistakes tomorrow. Starting to get kind of psyched.

If you're pushing the edge, eventually you find the edge. I can't believe you guys are actually going to watch. Hey Jimmy, do you copy? Just started climbing. Super excited to have you guys here today. Delighted to be able to talk to you about free solo and your life and creativity and art and commerce and everything. So welcome. Thank you. Great to be here. It's very nice to be here.

It's cool. I'm fascinated by your relationship, both personal and working relationship. It's got to be a cool and at times I would imagine challenging dynamic to work together on a creative project or projects that you guys both feel so passionately about. But, and please correct me if I'm wrong, I feel like this is like a divine pairing, like the expertise that you bring, Jimmy, and Shai that you bring

creates this beautiful complementary sort of set of skills that allows both of your work to like go to the next level and i think free solo is a perfect example of that i mean free solo is it is it is the manifestation of that yeah um along with what alex brought uh-huh you always need the good subject yes yes but no i think it's because he brought so much of his craft to El Cap that it kind of, it pushed Jimmy and his high angle team to bring their best. And then it pushed Jimmy and I as directors to bring our best.

Yeah. But I mean, yes, Free Soul is a very good example or manifestation of how our partnership works. Yeah. And it is like the evolution from Meru. Also, I feel like climbing movies have been sort of tiptoeing up against this barrier of trying to break through to mainstream audiences. It seems like Valley Uprising was a solid attempt at doing that. It didn't quite get the penetration that I feel like it deserved. And then Mayru went a long way towards introducing mainstream audiences to this world that you're so passionate about that runs through your blood. But Free Solo is like next level, man.

People are freaking out from this movie. Yes. Yes. No, but I think that you're, you're right that, you know, that cross-pollination essentially from Chai's talents and where she comes from and her very strong background. of serious nonfiction documentary work combined with what I've been doing for 20 years. And I think the biggest thing is that there's a lot of trust there. And sometimes I wonder, in some ways our working relationships on films, on this film, it's almost simpler compared to like being married and having children and all those things. Because we, you know, I think it's very easily recognizable like what we each bring to the table on that level. And I guess it's very easily recognizable, like what we each bring to the table on that level. And I guess it's similar, you know. And it's hard, I mean, it was wonderful to bring our children to Yosemite, you know.

And it was definitely part of my motivation was keeping everyone together and bringing our children to this wonderful place. But now in this part, right, like you've got both parents on the road and that's hard. Yeah. So it's, there are kind of those very practical considerations that become tough on us as a family. Yeah. But in the work, in the work, it's really, it works because Jimmy and I trust each other so much. Like, I know he's going to make the right decisions when he's shooting. He trusts when I'm asking for something that I'm asking for it for a reason.

Like, you know, get that shot. And it's really important that we film that. And it kind of works that way. And, like, just even on this film, like, they're toiling away on the wall with Alex for eight hours, ten hours. And then Alex sits down, but they're still up there kind of gathering the ropes and getting down. And myself and a different team, like a Verite cinematographer, would be there to talk to Alex about life and love and his dad. And you need both. I mean, Jimmy, you know, on the one hand,

like you're the only person who could be doing what you're doing. You have the climbing expertise and the background and the experience, and you have this incredible acuity with the camera, your cinematographer's eye. And then Chai, you bring the emotionality and the narrative structure to this

to really take these extraordinary visuals and turn them into a narrative that will connect with people's hearts. Is that fair? I think it's fair, but I think that it's often easy to underestimate Jimmy in that particular respect. Whereas I think we have a great cheat, so to speak, where Jimmy in this one brings such an intimate knowledge of this world. And I often feel like just more of an interpreter for like his instincts and bring some exteriority to it. Because what I think what also is strong about the film is that it looks at Alex's interior life

and tries to build a story while also aspiring to be something that the core respects, right? Like there's an authenticity that is 100% Jimmy. Yeah, you have to serve two masters, right? You can't alienate the hard cores, but you also have to make it appealing and interesting and compelling for somebody who knows nothing about this world. So it has to make both of us happy, which is kind of what that is, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it works that way.

I mean, I think she's very accurate about that in the sense that, you know, a lot of the heart and the soul of both Meru and pre-solo are ideas that, you know know i've experienced or seen or feel deeply about because i've been in this world and they're the great lessons or the great conflicts internal conflicts that i have suffered or people around me and my peer group have experienced you know those are ideas that are really the inspiration behind the films, you know, the mentorship and the camaraderie and the friendships

that I felt so deeply, you know, that have driven me to make these films. The task though, is that I've never, it's, you're so close to it it's really hard to translate and like i said i mean chai has been like the the great interpreter she has been able to kind of stand outside of it and be able to tell that story in a way that every people can digest it. Right. And that is really powerful because I have not, you know, I know it well. And so those are the conversations, you know,

when Chiron are sitting there in the edit room or when we're making these films, it's, you know, she's just kind of, you know, her first strokes at it are usually very good. And then,

and then we start to kind of refine those things and then also making sure you know of course it has to also speak to the core like there's no way i'm ever going to put out a film where i can't feel proud walking into a room full of my peer group yeah yeah yeah you know yeah but i would suspect that from your perspective jimmy you may think you're conveying a certain point because you're so close to it. And Chai can say, yeah, you think you're saying this, but actually I'm not getting it. Or the average person is not going to understand what you're trying to convey. It's more like that's a wonderful point.

It's very important that we achieve this other thing. We get to that other thing. And then I'm like, okay, let's go back to what Jimmy was saying. Right. And see if we can make it work within what we've done. So you're polishing each other's stones. Yeah. Yeah.

And it's really important. It's like this concept that was incredibly important in the film. It's a good example about preserving Alex's experience of the climb, right? Like, that's actually the most important part of the task for us was to make sure that Alex enjoyed and got what he wanted out of this. But that is a very elusive idea for people who don't understand climbing. Right, right. And I mean, you certainly achieved that. It's an extraordinary accomplishment, this movie.

And it's a very delicate tightrope walk because the simple fact that you're present around him inevitably influences him. And that's something you explore in the movie and trying to remain adequately removed so he has the space to do what he does and in the way that he aspires to do it, while also trying to, you know, responsibly document it so you can tell the story. I mean, it's like a Rubik's Cube, you know, to try to solve that. And I love how you kind of break the fourth wall with that. I mean,

you bring the filmmaker and the filmmaking process into the actual narrative of the movie, and that really elevates the compelling nature of the story that you're trying to tell. It's like that physics thing, like the simple observation of a subatomic particle is going, change its position in nature, right? And that's a micro example of what you are experiencing, just trying to be there. And I don't want to, you know, spoil it for people that haven't seen it, but that gets played out, you know, in a pretty interesting way. Yeah. No, I think you nailed it. I mean, it's a lot also about respect for the craft and the athlete. And, you know, I mean, you as an athlete, I mean, you know that you don't want to, like, take away from the whole inspiration of the film, you know, by being there and filming him. It's always been a conundrum in my field of work, you know,

because especially in climbing and probably in, you know, surfing, there's this whole idea of purity of why you do it, you know. And we address that too, you know. You see Peter Croft in the film being like, you know and and we address that too you know you see peter croft in the film being like you know when people asked me if they could film me on astro man i was like no not interested you know and in that moment alex lights up like a christmas tree you can see the respect that he has for this guy and he can really hear what he's telling him and And Alex, you can almost see the gears in his brain turning. Like, am I making a mistake?

Like, is this a demonstration of a lack of integrity? Because he's like, look, I have a film crew with me. Like, how do I do this? And the old sage is saying, like, I wouldn't do that. You know, and he's like, you can see him, like, really having a moment of reckoning with that. Yeah. And Peter's like the great, you know, Yoda for all climbers. You know, he's been the one, like the chosen one for a generation.

And so his words weigh heavily for sure. But it was interesting because that decision to include the filmmakers, you know, was a hard one. And it was one of those things that we had to see if we could make it work in a true way on different levels, right? And without it. Yes. And without it.

You did a cut without that to see how that of course yeah it was always about degree with the filmmakers like how much do we put in like and also what is it really about you know so it's it's not about the people are interested in how we did it right like that would be like the clear one reason why you include them because people want to see these guys hanging on ropes and they're like, how did they do this? How did they do this? It was often a really big question in Marriott where they're like, so the fourth person was filming it? And you're like, no, they were filming themselves.

Yeah, but what's relevant about breaking that fourth wall and bringing the filmmakers into it is this question of purity. What does it mean to do this from a you know, a pure place of the heart? And you're, Jimmy, you're like struggling with that because you have these conflicting drives, right? To respect what Alex is trying to do and also to have some fidelity to the creative process of telling an amazing story that will inspire millions of people. And the ethical questions of what if filming him causes him to die? Yeah. What does that mean? You're shouldering this incredible ethical conundrum, this burden of being not responsible necessarily,

but a participant in something that could be fatal. And that seemed essential to include. Yeah. Because it also gets to the existential heart of the movie itself, right? Because in dealing with that ethical question about what is our responsibility in this situation, you have to stop and think about all the worst case scenarios and then think about the reasons why you would make a film like this. Like, is it justifiable?

Like, is it worthwhile? And, you know, it gets to then that idea of Alex living a life of intention. And every day is exactly what he wants to do. He's thought deeply about his own mortality and his own death, and he chooses to do this. He's thought deeply about his own mortality and his own death, and he chooses to do this. And, you know, and for us, that idea, like a life of intention, makes it worthwhile, right? Clearly, we thought he would not get hurt.

We trusted him deeply. We trusted him to make the right decisions and not to climb, you know, like you see in the film, like he decides not to climb. But it was, you know, including the crew was a way to get there to talk about this um and also you know what is was always been a solo endeavor for alex like he's in a van he gets up and he goes and does this and no one knows about it maybe someone later you know reports it on a climbing blog. His greatest free solo of his life ended up being about a connection rather than being isolated. You know, he had his best friends next to him for a year and a half training alongside him, giving him feedback, trying to refine their shots while he's refining his moves. Yeah.

And all saying, like, we're never going to ask you whether or not you're going to actually climb. And we like you for who you are. You know, you're you. And we're still here. Yeah. And then you have this woman who entered his life, who I think for probably the first time in his life said, I'm going to tell you how I feel about this, but I still love you. Yeah.

You know, and I'm not going, I'm going to try not to go anywhere. So I think that it was this weird process for Alex that it became about connecting with people and communing with people, sharing an experience, whereas it always had been just this like loner endeavor for him. And the crew was a way of bringing that to life by showing the crew's feelings about this and how they interact with Alex was our way of trying to get to that truth. From a psychological perspective, he's such a fascinating person, unique, and really funny. That comes across really well in the movie. Yeah. In just a quirky, bizarre kind of way. And to kind of echo what you said about, you know, the solo pursuit of what he's doing and then,

and then trying to grapple with the community component of that, the amazing variable is, you know, enter stage left girlfriend, which is like a filmmaker's dream right because that just takes the narrative in a whole new direction and makes it so much more layered and complex and interesting if it's stuck if it's stuck yeah yeah yeah and to share her perspective which i would imagine on some level reflects your perspective being in a relationship with jimmy right like what is it like to be in a relationship with somebody who's constantly going out, who's compelled to do these death-defying, you know, adventures?

And I also loved how you explored Alex's background, particularly his father and what his father struggled with. And I couldn't help but wonder, like, well, what, like, remnants of that lives within Alex? Like, not that he is, you know, has Asperger's or anything like that, but there's something unique about his personality type that makes him perfectly, you know, a perfect fit for what he loves to do. a perfect fit for what he loves to do.

And it was really important to us to explore Alex's origins, where he came from, and explore his most influential relationships. And Alex's dad was a really tricky one because Alex's dad died, I want to say, 11 years ago or 12 years ago. He dropped dead in the airport of a heart attack. And his parents had gotten divorced about a year prior to that. And so there was this absence, right? There was no one to speak for Alex's dad who had belayed Alex for thousands of hours in this climbing gym. And probably didn't say much, but showed up and belayed him, right? Like, Alex's sister puts it the best, being like, I always wonder if my dad had lived if he would call and say a sentence about each book he read instead of just telling me the titles.

Yeah. This man didn't speak very much. Right. But he was very present. So, I think there's definitely a part of Alex's dad and Alex that probably inclines him towards what he's doing. But I think that what you see of his mom is very interesting. This idea of perfection is clearly from his mother. Yeah.

It's weird, though, because I don't get that vibe from her. She doesn't strike me as somebody who's some kind of taskmaster who's like, you have to be perfect. But clearly, that's Alex's recollection or perception of his upbringing. Well, I mean, she's a published author. She runs marathons. She's a concert pianist. I mean, I don't know if she held him. I think she clearly held him to those standards, like good enough isn't, what's the other one? It's good enough isn't is the best one. Yeah. But also held herself to those standards.

Uh-huh. You know, but she grew up in a different time, right? She's a Sacramento teacher, you know, from New York who moved in with this Northern California family. Mm-hmm. from New York who moved in with this Northern California family? As somebody who's not a climber, like I'm not a climber, but I've watched a bunch of climbing movies. I've gotten to know some of the climbers and I know lots of extreme athletes who do crazy things. And I went into the movie and I had met Alex and Alex, you know, sat right where you're sitting and got to know him a

little bit. So, I went into the movie thinking like, I know what this is about. Like, you know, I'm familiar with the story and I get it. And, you know, it didn't take very many minutes into the movie until I had this dawning epiphany like, oh, I don't understand this at all. You know, like, this is like way more complicated and intense and hardcore than I could have ever imagined. And Tommy kind of says it in the movie. He's like, you know, people think, oh yeah, he's going to free solo.

That's what he does. Like, I just thought like, you know, he's just, he picks these routes and he just goes up. And it's the climbers who really know, who have the great appreciation for just how super gnarly the whole thing is. And the diligence and the preparation, the attention to detail and the focus that he demonstrates. Like that montage where you have the voiceover of him reading from his diaries and you're like, he has every maneuver completely devoted to memory all the way up this wall.

And it really boils down to those three or four tricky moves to make it work for him. No, absolutely. I mean, I think, I know it's really almost impossible for a non-climber to imagine the scope of the difficulty because it's hard for a professional climber. It's hard for me to understand even how difficult it is. It's truly beyond what, you know, we were even talking about.

It wasn't something that climbers are sitting around the campfire talking about you know um because it wasn't just it just wasn't even on the radar of possibility it's just so far out there uh and you know i've been filming and and shooting in this space for 20 years and and worked with many of the best. You know, Peter Croft included, Dean Potter and many other incredible athletes and people. Conrad at the peak of their careers and some of their top achievements. Also in the ski mountaineering world and snowboarding and, you know, just a lot, a good mix of extreme athletes.

and snowboarding and you know just a lot a good mix of extreme athletes and i just haven't seen anything like it you know when alex came on the scene and he kind of came out of nowhere uh when when i first heard about him soloing moonlight buttress and half dome in Half Dome, I mean, honestly, I, you know, didn't believe it. I was like, there's no way somebody just showed up and did that. You thought it was just apocryphal or somebody made it up? Yeah, kind of. You know, I dug. I was like, no way. There's no way.

And El Cap is, you know, several magnitudes more difficult than Half Dome, like many more. It's just so much more difficult. And I don't know if there's a good way to put it. I mean, it's like, you know, I think about in the world of running like a marathon. It's like people are talking about that person that's going to break the two-hour barrier, right? And then someone shows up and runs a marathon in under an hour, you know, wherever he's like,

it's that crazy. Yeah. You're like, what would, who's, who's talking about running a marathon under an hour? Yeah. It's not physically possible.

Well, so we, so we believe, so we believe. Yeah. And so for, you know, to imagine somebody, it's a combination of not necessarily physically possible, but it's just mentally, there's no way someone could keep it together like that. It's just unimaginable.

So how does this all come together? At some point, Alex had to be declarative, like, I'm going to do this, right? To at least, you know, get you guys in motion and about different potential films after Meru and a few people had been approaching us. And so we kind of thrown it out there that we were going to, we were thinking about making a film about Alex, but it was more of a character portrait, you know, character study of Alex. And his achievements up to before Al Cap were already worthy of, you know, an incredible film. And so I've been climbing and filming and traveling with Alex for 10 years and know him pretty well, but Chai didn't know him as well. So she wanted to spend some time with him and he came out to New York and I was on another project out of the country or out of the state. But she was spending time with Alex.

And he came to stay with us. Yeah. Which in itself is a great story, but we'll leave it at that. Come on, you can't say that. I can't. He wasn't alone, let's put it that way. All right. He wasn't alone.

Okay. To my great surprise. But it was over breakfast that he basically just came out with it and said, I'm thinking about free soloing El Cap, and if there's a movie, it should be about that. And Chai's like, oh, that sounds great. As a filmmaker, I was like, okay, okay, that sounds amazing. Great. That's big. I was like, okay, okay. That sounds amazing.

Great. That's big. And then I told Jimmy, and I think I was the first person Alex ever said it to out loud directly. And I told Jimmy, and you were like, no way. Like, too risky. We can't do it. I was like, he didn't say that. There's just no way.

He said what? You know, I made her repeat herself like multiple times. Because I'm like, he's never said it to me. He's never said it to anybody I've known. And obviously we're very conscious of it. Because all of his friends in the back of our minds, we didn't even want to think about it. But back there we kind of could tell like everything he had been doing has been leading towards a particular direction and the end of that path there's a giant 3 000 foot wall you know right and so

unimaginable and set against the backdrop in which a lot of sponsors are dropping these athletes because the risk factor is so high and it's just too trepidatious for a brand to be involved in something that could lead to a fatality, right? Yeah, Cliff dropped all the people who sold them. As opposed to race car driving, right? Right. Those cars flip all the time though.

For the most part, those guys seem to walk away. I don't know how that works, but... Your impulse was, we can't be involved in this, or you just didn't believe that he was actually going to do this? Let's take a step back here for a moment and really think about this. Let's, we have to answer some very hard questions. You know, is this ethical? Do we trust him? Do we trust that we're able to do a production around this without, you know, causing him harm?

causing him harm? Is he, is the production going to, you know, the external pressure of the production going to push him to do something he wouldn't want to do, wouldn't normally do? You know, just a lot of those questions. And there's a couple of months where I just tried to shut it down and stop thinking about it, but, you know, people were interested. And so we had to kind of make a decision. And I think six months into the process, Chai and I were hanging out with John Krakauer. And, you know, the author. And he's a very good friend and mentor, really. And, you know, we kind of dropped it on him it was even

hard to say it's like hey um because he was like what are you guys thinking about next and we're like we're thinking about film on alex he's like oh that would be a great film and he's we're like well he's thinking about soloing el cap and i remember we were walking down the sidewalk and he stopped and he looked over and he's like, what? Cause that John gets it. I'm like, yeah, he's, he's thinking about soloing El Cap and you know, John took a minute to absorb it. But then I was like, well, what do you think? And he just looked at us and he's like, well, is he going to do it anyways? And we're like, yeah, probably. He's like, you've been filming with him for 10 years. You know him as well as anybody.

This is what you do. Do you trust anybody else to do it? No, you're the only team that could. If he is going to do it anyway, that kind of answers the ethical dilemma aspect of it. But then I would imagine, yeah, you're like shaking your head, right? I mean, it doesn't let us off the hook. It doesn't let you off the hook, but I would imagine that there was then a lot of conversations about what the ground rules would be for how you would capture this. Yeah.

We had to build guidelines for ourselves and for the crew. Well, I mean, the most poignant one is like one could never ask Alex if he was going to freestyle a wildcat. If he was ready, if he was going to go,

any of it. And if you just stop and think about what that looks like, that's kind of, I mean, it's staggering for a documentary film.

Like you've got how many people waiting every day in place, ready to go. Your burn rate being very high. Right. Cause that was the other thing too. I just, I just, I guess I just assumed that there would be a date on the calendar and that that was going to be the day that he was going to do it and everybody would be ready. And it's not, it's like, well, he could just, you know, do it and everybody would be ready and it's not it's like no well he could just you know do it whenever whenever the moment whenever he felt inspired to do it when he felt in his soul that he was ready that it would just happen and you had to be on standby the whole time yeah it was an open timeline how long did that go on for it felt like forever you're just like living in Yosemite. Like, is he going to do this?

Yeah. I mean, obviously, we were seeing him train and we could tell, you know, where he was in his kind of fitness program. I mean, the other thing that's like amazing and I think that people take for granted is that there's no coach for this. There's no diagram for how you train best for free soloing El Cap. I mean, he invents it himself. And so, you know, we're also friends and climbing partners. So he's explaining like how he's training and what, you know, so we're getting indications, you know. Clearly, you know, we know what the problem areas are on the climb.

Obviously, the free blast and the enduro corner and definitely the boulder problem. There's a bunch of other sections. And he starts to work the route. He starts to kind of systematically tick off the sections he knows that he's comfortable with and like the monster off with, like there are all these pitches that are notorious among professional climbers, you know, professional climbers going to free climb, meaning climbing without using points of aid, but still using a rope. But, you know, there are sections on that route that are notoriously difficult and people will spend three to five days on the route i mean when we were filming with alex there was a

one week it was the week leading up to him soloing there was a sponsored adidas team from germany to a couple like that were on the route for five days trying to free climb the route without falling on the lead. Took them five days. They didn't clean. They didn't climb all the pitches clean, you know? And these are professional climbers. Yeah. And that's with a rope, multiple tries.

Right, so they have a rope, but they're trying to do it as if they were without a rope, right? Yeah. Well, they're doing it with, so there's free climbing and aid climbing. Free climbing means you're climbing with your hands and feet and doing all the moves, you know, in order without falling on each pitch. And in aid climbing, you would just stick a piece in there and grab it and haul yourself up with these little ladders and things. But free climbing is kind of like the cutting edge of climbing. But they can't even climb it with a rope, you know.

Wow. Yeah. Even with a rope. Well, some of that stuff is so inside baseball. Yeah. You know, it's so technical and I'm sure, you know, climbers get super geeked out on all of that. But the way that you took something that would be very difficult for the average person to understand and translated it in a way that was not only understandable, but made it like more compelling. Like, oh my God, here he is. He's on that one point that is going to be, this is the defining moment, you know?

Like, you did a great job of creating, like, a tense narrative around those moments. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. What is it that, I'm sorry, go ahead. No, no, some of, there were some really valuable lessons learned with Meru, which made, gave us more confidence in decisions we made about how to do that. Yeah. give us more confidence in decisions we made about how to do that.

Where you could see a lot of details. You didn't need to know what they were called. You didn't need... It was all about his own experience of that challenge. And there's vivid things like the thumbs. No one will ever forget those thumbs. What exactly it's called.

Is it called a pinch or whatever? It doesn't really matter. It's the thumb move. Right. Or pitches. There was a lot of information that was okay if it was not included. When he finally, when it's the moment and he's beginning, that was in the wake of another attempt where he decides it's not the right day and you guys make

adjustments and how you're going to document this because there's some sense that that it's your your process was a little bit too i don't know invasive or in his face or something like that and you have the cameras that are then like in the valley with these huge long lenses, but you were still, I mean, you seem to have plenty of documentation, like you were on the wall and you had the drones and all that kind of stuff, right? Like how, what were the adjustments that you made so that you could still make sure that you were getting the most riveting version of this without being overly interfering? The main adjustment was that a rule that always existed was like really enforced about Alex could only see you

if you were filming him on and off the mountain, right? So mostly it was about off the mountain. Like that we had 15 people in the valley, but he didn't know that. He didn't know that there were three rented houses in Foresta. You know, he just didn't know the details of what was going on. And in order to minimize the pressure, you know, that all he knew was that, you know, Jimmy and Claire Popkin are hanging out in his van, you know. Yeah.

You know, and trusting us that if the time came, we would be in place. But in terms, I think that there's kind of almost a misperception of what it was like on the wall. Like when you ask about the guidelines, like the main guideline also was that these are elite pro climbers. Right. You know, Jimmy and the team. It's the number one criteria. I mean, they're elite pro climbers. So that dangling 2,000 feet to 2000 feet in the air

is normal. Right. And they're comfortable there. So it's not really a question if they would ever drop something or let a rope swing. Like their main job is to make sure that never happens. And I think that Alex trusted, you know, really trusted the people around him. So that, you know, they are dangling next to him and, you know, the mountain is undulated. So, you can be quite close without him seeing you, but he still needs to know that you're there because no surprise, it's like, that's the worst thing for him. And he can hear you. But, you know, there were adjustments like the boulder problem remote cameras whereas a decision that everyone came to together because his issue was not about dying it was about having a friend of his watch him die yeah which in itself is remarkable right this guy thinking about someone

else's emotional experience of his own death the guy who really had always a very hard time thinking about what anyone else felt. But also very undramatic about it. Like, he's like, well, you know, like, yeah, I'm not going to die. Yeah, he's so mad. He's like, so mad. He's like, well, yeah, of course, I don't want to die. But like, you know, dying while my friend's watching me, well, you know, yeah, that would be kind of a bummer. He he's so low-key about it no it and it it comes with the territory when you spend a lot of time in that space you know and and he he he says it all the time he's like you know free-souling gives me perspective because when i'm standing in the airport line and there's a guy in front of me just having a like shit fit like he can can, you know, he's like, well, at least you're not going to die. Right.

And he can kind of keep it. Yeah, I feel like with Alex, the, you know, the line of questioning is always like, you know, what's your relationship with fear and death and all of these things. And people have a hard time wrapping their heads around it. And I kind of look at him as somebody who has perhaps one of the healthiest relationships with death because he's so close to it all the time that it allows his life to present itself in technicolor, right? Like, he's able to be incredibly present and, like, grateful for the moment that he's in because he's so closely connected to this thing that's going to happen to all of us, but which we all dismiss or try to pretend, you know, isn't going to happen. Yeah. No, I think you're absolutely right about that. And that comes back to the idea of his, you know, intention in living, intentional living. I mean, he is acutely, you know, aware of his time. And that, even for us being around him for this long, has rubbed off, has affected us, I think.

In what way? Just he walks the walk. I mean, he holds himself to a very high standard. You know, whether it's executing on his climbing or if it's carrying a dirty old, you know, half liter Nalgene, not Nalgene bottle, but like Gatorade bottle that he's had for six months. So nasty. And, you know, he's put protein drinks in it every day for six months and carries it around internationally. The same old yeah because you know it's a perfectly good bottle and it still doesn't leak and it still does its job i mean the pants he's wearing on the climb he's you know by the time he climbs you you look at the bottom of

his they're frayed at the bottom uh those pair of pants, he did like a legendary climb like years before one of the great alpine climbs of all time where he did the entire Fitz Traverse in Patagonia. But anyways, that's another story. But it was a tremendously difficult climb and he shredded his pants on it. And then we saw him in New York and we were like, what are those pants you're wearing? And he's going on his book tour and he's like, oh, these are the same pants I wore on my Fitz Traverse. And I'm going on a date in them tonight. You know, I mean, but to the point being like, you know, he's very conscious of not being wasteful. Yeah. And you can't be around that all the time without starting to see, you know, your own actions over the course of the day. Well, that red t-shirt, he's in like every photo, he's wearing the same red t-shirt.

Well, there's a logic behind that too. And I get that beyond not being wasteful. He also, he always wants to minimize variables. So he wants to wear the exact same clothing on the actual climb that he has trained in. That's why in the morning he gets up and he already has his muesli breakfast built. And at the exact same time, for the month leading up to it he was getting up at four in the morning so that he would be regular at five go to the bathroom because he knew that he would start up the wall at five and he didn't want to make it feel early and he wanted to have gone to the bathroom and he wanted to have had his breakfast and so he so that when the day came he could just go on autopilot and everything would be the same.

It's amazing. You mentioned the book tour. So Alex is on this book tour, speaking tour. And as was, you talked about this at the premiere when you were on stage. He was on Tinder or whatever and trying to get a date in every city. Totally. He actually did set up date in every city. Totally. He actually did set up dates in every city. It was amazing.

I almost wanted to raise my hand and say, please read me what your Tinder profile said. I would love to see how he characterized himself on a dating site. You know, it's that fancy site like Thraya. It's not Thraya. Raya. Raya. Raya. I don't even know what that is. So it mines your Instagram feed and your Pandora, like, preferences.

So it was basically heavy metal photos of Alex shirtless, like, in spectacular places. Oh, my God. And it was hilarious. I mean, just, I would always be like, what do you tell these women that you do for a living? Do you tell them that you live in a van? And it was amazing because we're like, oh, great. We have like documentaries are never funny enough. Like it's always my dream to like make a very funny documentary.

And I was like, great, we've got a funny documentary, which will help because the stakes are terrifying on this film. And it'll be a way to give people a release. And then Sonny arrived. So she moved into the van with us. We were there first. So, but she is just a very special person. Yeah.

And it was a real turning point for the film. Yeah. And one of the things that you said that evening at the premiere was how important it was to you and to the movie to get that part of the story right. So what is it that you really wanted to make sure that got properly conveyed by virtue of that relationship? Well, I think in all of our films together, being very mindful and thoughtful about how everyone is represented is really important and but especially you know the women in the film i mean the men too but um it just seemed that there were always women in these particular types of stories have always have oftentimes been portrayed a certain way it's was like, what was me? I'm staying at home. And these women are not like that. And Sonny is a very good example of someone who

is emotionally articulate and self-confident enough to push back on Alex, but also find this place where she can love him for who he is, which was like a revelation for Alex. Like, I don't think he's ever had that experience. Like, I don't think his parents looked at him that way. had that experience um like i don't think his parents looked at him that way like um but so just giving her the space and allowing the discomfort of what it felt like when she pushed back on alex right before the climb like because it's an incredibly uncomfortable moment in the film um it makes you feel conflicted about her conflicted about him but just allowing those moments to live because that was the right thing to,

like, it was the right representation. It's honest. Yeah, it's so human. It's sort of a passive aggressive comment that she makes. It's like, you know, it's okay if you don't do this, you know, and you're like, what's behind that? Or the dream. I dreamt that you fell in the same place the day,

and we know that he's climbing. He's going to go free solo in two days. She doesn't know. Like, those are really difficult things to include and to witness, but it just seemed really important for her character and for his character. Or is he really, does that play on his, I mean, he's very clear, like, this isn't going to influence my decision. But on a human level, it's hard to imagine that it doesn't impact how he thinks about what he does. I think if you were to answer the question now, it would clearly impact what he does. Like, they were six months into a relationship. He was nine years into a dream. And that, I think he's being very candid when he says that. You know, that's understandable.

This was a dream he had, and then he met someone. And where is that going to go? They don't know. But I think that if they're still together, it's been three years, and that's a different type of conversation now, which is interesting. And, you know, I'm very happy for Alex. Right. So what does it look like now then? So do you think it will have some level of impact on what he chooses to do next?

Yeah, at this point, I think so. And I mean, he's already, you know, admittedly changed in ways. Particularly, he said, you know, when I watch the film, I see these things that I say to her and I think, wow, that's, I need to work on that, you know. Yeah, he has a really deep sense of self-awareness around these things, I think. He does and he doesn't, you know. It's like he doesn't sometimes in the moment, but then on reflection, he is all about self-betterment, you know, all the time. So whether it was eating vegetables or not knowing how to hug and learning how to hug. And he's constantly looking for best practices.

But they often feel very unemotional and, like, robotic, which kind of throws people and his friends. But that makes it comedic too. I mean, he's unapologetically honest. Yeah. He's trying to be, you know, he's trying,

I should be more emotional. Like, Oh no. And at the, you know, there's that point in the film where he's like, I'm feeling quite emotional. Right.

And that, that is like him being emotional, him being like, and that's why I joke in the film. And then you saying like, I'm glad, yeah, Spock is human. Spock has nerves. Right. Because sometimes we're like, hello. Right, right, right, right. Well, the most uncomfortable he looks in the entire movie is when he's standing in that house in Vegas or when they're like shopping.

And you're like, I'm almost like uncomfortable watching him doing that. It's like, it's so out of place, you know? And he's trying, he's like, I want to do this. And he's, you can, you know, he's, I don't know. It just, it was fascinating to watch that without him saying anything. I think he's trying really hard. And I think, I don't think Alex is ever going to change, like he feels this range of emotions, whereas most people feel maybe that range of emotions. I don't think that will change for him. But what I think is, as we're talking about this with other people and being asked these questions, I've been thinking a lot about his motivations or the why in his idea of self-betterment because i don't think it's necessarily about self-betterment the more i think about it i think you know like what he says other people seem to enjoy hugging i might as well try that i think it's about communicating

you know it's about him trying to understand more about what other people like having something more in common with people like this what would a normal human being do in this situation? And trying to understand that experience. Like, normal people should have a house. Like, you know, should have a house. He is an alien that came to planet Earth and is studying what it means to be human. And he wants to communicate.

He wants to touch people. And that's really interesting to me. What didn't make it into the final edit that, like, was difficult for you to cut out? Like, some other aspects of the story. You know, we had the real privilege of having time when we made this film. So we worked, worked like we tried everything there's no um idea that wasn't tried and the question is did we go back again to try it like that's kind of the level of how much playing we were doing um like once we got the film to a

certain place did we have did we actually go back to that original idea and see if we could make it work? And I guess there's nothing I regret, that we regret. There's one thing that popped up the other day that I kind of began to regret, which was the rock. There was a rock that fell in Morocco while they were climbing. It was a freak, normal, like it's something that happens on climbs,

but it was pretty dramatic, but we didn't get it on camera. everyone was very shook like shaken up and it didn't fit like we tried everything and people were too animated so they didn't feel serious and but it would have been wonderful like it would have been very meaningful if we could have made that work but there are no regrets with this film like i'm i think that we really tried everything we could and that feels good. Yeah. You've been traveling around, screening the movie all over the place. It's getting, you know, this incredible response right now from all different kinds of people. I mean, you guys must just be elated and delighted. Super exciting. I mean, I would imagine you're going to get Oscar shortlisted. You guys are on an incredible trajectory.

What has the experience been for you guys sharing the movie and watching, gauging audience reactions to it? It's been humbling. And we were so immune to this. One, we were just so relieved that Alex is fine. Like, the best day of this production was the day he you know free sold all cap and we knew we were okay i can't imagine the cathartic release it was it was such a profound release and relief and and the thing is is i i kind of had made a deal with myself or with the universe or at some point probably the month or the week leading up to when he finally did it,

which was that, you know, in those moments when you're like, the idea of him pulling it off, us filming it successfully, everybody being okay, the crew being safe, it seems so out of reach. And I remember thinking, if we ever pull this off, if he ever pulls this off, everything else will be gravy. The film, whatever happens with the film, it's all going to be gravy. And I kind of go back to that through this experience where I'm like, you know what? We are so fortunate to have been able to have this experience i mean the process of the production was really intense but it was like an expedition where it's difficult what the 450 day expedition yeah like it's that long oh

yeah but you know when you suffer through this thing but you achieve you know what seemed like an impossible goal and there's you know a deep satisfaction with that and so you know there's there's you we try to enjoy we're trying to enjoy the moment uh we're trying not to put too much into it i mean we we're putting everything into it but i just mean like attachment to yeah i'm trying to stay centered about it like we appreciate looking across an ocean of heads that are like in a theater gripped watching your movie i mean that feels great you know um but yes we're we're just we're very happy and grateful so we were relieved when he did it and then like the on like the onset of like oh no we have to bring it now like you know we we've got to make the you owe it to him too and he's

shown up in these intimate moments like we have to make the most of it so then having a cruise i mean everyone was so committed and so then having that time to really experiment and explore and push was great. But we became immune, right? Like, it's just a shot now. Like, in the edit room, I was like, oh, that's a nice shot of the mountain. And when we went to Telluride and watched it with an audience, and it was 10 o'clock at night. It was the world premiere. It was a huge auditorium.

And just looking at everyone from Tommy Caldwell, his wife, Sonny, all our cinematographers, the producers sitting there in one row sobbing and experiencing probably like a profound PTSD on some level. Yeah, right. Because we had this exercise for two years of like, don't feel anything in front of Alex. So, no one, like you put it away and suddenly you can let it out. And that audience yeah no and the audience like triggering it and like being part of this um so it's just been it's been a real privilege and like a great like i i think we keep on saying to each other and i keep on saying to jimmy and alex a lot like this doesn't happen yeah like this is a moment and it's really special

and i wonder what it is about the film in this moment. And that's kind of an interesting question, but just let's just enjoy it. You know, it's so cool. I mean, it was screening at the Cinerama Dome in Hollywood. Like when was the last time a documentary period was on the screen at that theater? It's insane. It's an interesting story because we were so, it's all about where you open in LA, right? What theater will take this movie? And we couldn't book it. We couldn't book it.

We couldn't book it. And like three weeks before Arclight came in. And that was great. We're like, it's amazing. We got one of their screens at the Arclight. And it was the Wednesday before, because everything got sold out so fast. There was a sense on our side, like, we need more screens. We need more screens.

And like, no one wanted to give us more screens um and on the wednesday before um one person from our team was checking the ticket sales and you know like um tapped on the arc light link and saw that they had added it was like 14 more screenings on thursday and friday including the cinerama dome they gave us three screens like the whole, it just overnight happened. And that was almost, that was amazing. Like, we didn't even know. Like, we just didn't know. Yeah.

And then it happened. And it ended up, it's the highest per screen average of, like, any documentary or something like that. Opening weekend. Opening weekend, right. That is crazy. It was thanks to Arclight. They gave it, I mean, they gave it, they believed in it and gave us those screens. Because otherwise you just can't throw a number like that. Yeah.

Yeah. The wild thing was, as I'm watching it, you get lost in the narrative and you're just like, oh my God, is it, you know, what, is he going to fall? Is he going to fall? And I'm like, well, he's sitting right there. Like, you know, I know that he's fine. He gave me a hug. He's been practicing his hug. So I was like, it's all good.

Yeah. And yet you still couldn't help but become incredibly tense and anxious. Even when you know what's going to happen. It's funny. I mean, the number of people who come out of the theater that are shell-shocked and just look at you and say, of the theater that are shell shocked and just look at you and say, I mean, the number of times I've heard my hands are still sweating, you know, it's just, I never anticipated that much of a reaction.

And so I, you know, on the, on this tour, it's, it's fun. I love going for the last 15 minutes and yeah, I don't watch the movie. I watch people and I, I love watching that, you know, when people have their hands over their eyes or they're gripping their partner next to them. I mean,

I think it's a great date movie. You know, people are always like grabbing each other, holding each other, you know, it's a horror movie. It's a comedy. It's just, it's, that has been something I didn't expect and I really enjoy.

From a technical perspective, I thought it was really interesting trying to deconstruct how you actually did this. I mean, there is a mix of special effects that are layered in and I couldn't really tell where that began and end. Like I know you used Google Earth and you have these amazing shots where you're pushing in on the wall. And it gave you like, because you see the wall and you're like, yeah, it's a big wall, but it's only when you kind of zeroed in on them and then you would see just how tiny, you know, the bodies were against it, that you really got a sense of just how the largesse of of the affair yeah that

was definitely one of the challenges because we've all been there you know china and the whole team have stood under lcap and i've climbed up have a lot of times i mean it's the scale i mean it is so big and it's really really hard to translate that on screen. Yeah, it doesn't get conveyed. No, so we worked very hard. We spent a lot of time. But it's a good example of our partnership. For Jim, we'd come in and watch these cuts and be like, El Cap doesn't look big enough.

And I'd be like, you didn't give me a shot that makes it look big enough. And I'd be like, well, what's up with these guys? They've had it for two months. They still can't make it look big enough? And it was the push of it. It doesn't know. We just didn't have enough information. And so finally, it was funny.

It was like, we, our process, I think it's fair to say that we keep on tweaking to the bitter end. You know, like, I don't know until you're right if it's even the final version of the movie. You know, like, keep on tweaking. And right before we were locking, it was just, I was walking along the street and I was like, wait, Google probably has better images. I wonder if they'd give them to us. And then they did. Wow, so that was very late. It was very late.

And then it took weeks to negotiate them to give us the information. And then the files arrived and they were too big. They were huge. It was a whole thing. So just ingesting it into the workflow. It took weeks. But then they were able to create this three-dimensional mountain that worked. Because that was the whole thing. So just ingesting it into the workflow. It took weeks. But then they were able to create this three-dimensional mountain that worked because that was the whole thing. They would only be able to get it in a certain tightness, and that would just kind of defeat the purpose, right?

You have to go all the way, or it's like, what's the point? Right. Well, I mean, that was brilliant because that really did make a huge difference in helping you to understand the gravity of the whole thing. helping you to understand the gravity of the whole thing. What was like the, other than the simple fact that you have a dear friend who could possibly die, like what was the hardest part of this whole process? I think there was two, you know, I think that we both each kind of focused on tackling

our respective, you know, I think that we both each kind of focus on tackling our respective, you know, spots. I mean, I think for the Verite filming and just getting, putting in that time and getting Alex and Sonny to just totally commit and give in and submit to the camera. Submit. Yeah. Just not submit. Well, you just have to leave it rolling long enough submit. Yeah. Just not submit. Well, you just have to leave it rolling long enough until they're not aware that it's... They're okay. Yeah.

Sure. Yes, the work itself. Don't you think it was the pressure? Oh, yeah. It was the idea that he could die, that never went away. And that... That he woke up with every day, even when we are in our location.

And also of our crew itself, because normally these types of high-angle shoots don't last for as long as ours did, and don't have that many people. So our exposure was significant. Yeah. So the day wasn't over until they were all on the ground and that was a thing like you know you kind of you'd hopefully not eat before them and be like it wasn't that wasn't the point the point was like just make sure they're back and okay yeah we pulled on dinner like morocco is mikey down yet are they down yet you know i mean and morocco was pretty extreme as an experience like it's seven minutes in the movie it was three weeks of shooting and like pretty intense um environment pretty intense

climbing environment so i think but it was always just the idea that alex could die and did we make the right decision as much as we believed we did um and please let us have made the right decision and alex make good decisions. Yeah. And there was a possibility, of course, that he could have decided to not do it at all. Right? Yeah. Yeah.

It's okay. That would have been fine. Yeah. But as Alex says, but the movie would have sucked. It would have been a harder movie to make. It would have been harder. But it wasn't going to be like he decided not to do it. It would be a question of when.

I'm not doing it this year. Okay, we'll see you next year. Like, waiting around for six years, but you're getting kind of old, Alex. That's okay. Like, you know, he was so obsessed with it that he just felt like he was going to do it. And when he achieves it and he, you know, gets to the top and he's like, I'm so delighted. You know, it's so, there's something really childlike and innocent and pure, you know, and beautiful about, because it's so honest to him, you know. But like funny too, like what a weird thing to say.

It's totally, I mean, every screening, you know, people laugh at that moment because he's accomplished this like insane goal. And he looks up and he's like, I'm so delighted. Yeah. Yeah. He has this kind of way of thinking about it too, which is very smart. I mean, he's very smart. And he's like, you know, I can't build it up into something bigger than it is, which would be hard anyways. But his whole idea is that, you know, this isn't a stunt.

Like he knows he's put the time in. He knew he was ready and he wouldn't do it until he was 100%, you know, like he wasn't going to go for it fully if he didn't feel comfortable walking up to it and going up it. But his point, because people have asked him about it and, you know, his response is like, yeah, I'm not like jumping up and down for joy because I, you know, robbed the bank and got away with it. He's like, I knew I had it, you know? And he always also describes, you know, if you're in a, if, you know, the emotional spectrum is one to 10, he lives between 4.6 and 5.2. Uh-huh. And if he's super riled up, he gets to like 5.6. Yeah. You know, and so he just, that's his natural response, you know. But that smile, his smile is.

Oh, yeah. I mean, it's a million dollar smile. But it's really just, the accomplishment is just an external manifestation of who he is and what was within him the whole time. You know, it's not a destination-oriented thing. Like, okay, I did this. Like, now I'm done. And, you know, he goes back to the van and he's, like, doing pull-ups, like, the same day. Like, you know?

It's just this is who this guy is like through and through and through. One question I have for you guys is, and I'm interested if you answer this different. What do you think makes a great documentary? Like what are the elements that differentiate like a good documentary from one that really sings? Want me to go first? Yeah, I mean, I have thoughts. For me, it always is about the story and then probably the character. the story and then probably the character i know we make these visually you know we have very high expectations for ourselves visually but you know it was funny i was just

going with our editor through like my earlier films and went back he went back to watch my first film um you know and that was shot on a, you know, a tiny mini DV camera by me. And, you know, and the characters in that film are just remarkable, you know, and so, and their story was amazing. So I don't, you know, I think of things like Street Fight, you know, Marshall Curry's film that he shot on another mini DV camera about Cory Booker's first race. And I think you just have to have that story and that character and you can make a wonderful film. And then the other part of that is clearly the gaze, like the G-A-Z-E of it. Like that your own intention as a filmmaker will very much define that.

And do you think those principles apply whether it's narrative or documentary? I mean, you've done a lot in documentary filmmaking. You've worked with all kinds of interesting people and made many other films. But you also work with Mike Nichols on Closer, right? What do you learn from a master storyteller that informs the films that you make now. I mean, it's story. I mean, it was always story for Mike. And character.

Those are his two things. I think his process was really interesting. Like, he still rehearsed. He would work with the writer in rehearsal with the real actors, saying their lines and, like, breaking it apart. And how he really focused on those performances. And he, I mean, Mike is a, was a genius.

Like the amount of things, like he was the type of guy that in the room, he would notice what the person in the corner was saying. And if it was something of, you know, of worth, he would, no matter who you are, he would engage because he would remember that that person had said it. And yeah, for him, it was always story and characters it's the same thing yeah jimmy yeah i mean i how can i argue with that you know uh but i but you come to it from a more of a dp perspective sure yeah i mean visually of course i mean i love you know creating the visuals that's part of what i do and who i am uh but i always kind of go back to what i personally love about films and you know for films that really moved me um emotionally that made me feel something who were your guys like who are the I mean like

the most recent example I don't know I mean there's I guess this is more narrative but you know I grew up well I'm just trying to think of something most recent. Like I loved Hurt Locker. I loved Damien Chazelle's Whiplash too. I mean, the tension. Have you seen First Man yet? And we saw First Man. I loved Senna too. So there's two things that I love

is when you're really moved emotionally. I remember watching The Power of One. There were some films that made me feel something deeply. And I love that experience because you're being transported somewhere and you feel something. And I always want to make films where people feel something, where they're moved emotionally. And I also love being transported in a world, and I think Senna did this for me,

where you're like, yeah, race car driving. I know it's kind of dangerous, but I'm not that interested in race car driving. And I came out of that movie being like, whoa. I was like formula one is so gnarly and like pushing that edge is like i get what they're pushing for and i understand the ambition and like what it means so those kind of things i have you know for meru the previous film like those you know Hurt Locker and Senna informed some of my thinking around it.

But I love the emotional. Yeah. What's interesting about what you do, though, is that for most documentary filmmakers that are sort of on the periphery, and I suppose for this movie, you had to be more on the periphery than you usually are. But generally, it's an immersive process for you where you are participant and observer at the same time, which is unique. Like you're telling the story and you're part of the story as well. Yeah. And I feel like like it's always because i'm feeling deeply on these productions you know i feel something very deeply when i'm in it just because you are in it and it's i don't think it's necessarily special but but you know it's important for me, you know, to bring that feeling and hopefully share it, you know, bring it through the screen and give it to the people watching it. And that's, thankfully I've tried helping.

Well, I would think, like, Jimmy is like a literal translation of that, where I think that most, like, all filmmakers are all authors like you are active participants in what you're doing um and that that's like a responsibility um but at least like with Jimmy like it has to be a palpable it's like a palpable thing like you're you're watching it and he as he's doing it what what do you want audiences to take away from this movie or do you want to just allow them to have their own experience? But like, what is your, do you have an intention behind that? No, it's kind of what I took away from Alex's story, which is here is this incredibly scared kid who's a loner.

Who began climbing without a rope because it was scarier to talk to somebody to be his, ask them to be his partner, and who, you know, was intimidated by vegetables, scared of hugs, scared of intimacy, any intimacy, and methodically taught himself, you know, to work through his own fears. And that is very, very moving to me, because I feel like everyone has a fear like that. We're not that extreme, maybe, but there are lots of things that scare us. And the process of him working his way through his fears is what? Like he places himself in the most fear-inducing scenarios a human being could imagine. Well, I think it's little by little, right?

Like he practiced hugging and that's how he introduced one vegetable a month. Right. And yes, and then he decided that he wanted to climb this mountain. So he began, he spent, you know, 15 years of his career preparing for doing something bigger and badder. But I think he also has this courage that I hope people take away from the film. Like it's very inspiring what he's done and how he looks at it and how he and also this communal experience that happens like it's about communicating and courage and doing something so you know and what is it that you think makes him unique like if you had to define what makes him special and distinct from his peers within that community and even in general i think that his absolute like adherence to a life of intention makes him incredibly unique.

Yeah. Like that is real and it, and it's inspiring. It's uncompromising and it's inspiring. And then you add to that, that he's clearly a genius. Like he's an absolute genius, but he's also has this discipline that is unheard of.

Like it is, it's discipline that makes, that's what makes him great. Because I'm sure Tommy could be a better climber than he is. But Alex's, like, discipline just helps him move through all these challenges. Right. Like, his talent is on par with his peers, but his talent isn't the deciding factor. It's not like he's more talented than anyone else. It's something else.

Not necessarily physically. Right, that's what I meant, physical talent. I mean, he's unmatched on his mental capacity to, I mean, we always kind of say that it's his one superpower. He has a superpower that he can manage it. It's like he's able to take his emotional, mental, physical, spiritual selves and condense them, distill them down into one thing that's working in perfect unison. I think that's very good observation because if you look at soloing, it is like the purest form of climbing, right? I mean, you are stripped to even not having a harness and ropes.

It is the purest expression. I mean, maybe he could do it naked, but otherwise, it is like the purest expression of climbing. I don't think we'd want to see him do it naked. But you know what I'm saying? It's like, and he's like that. He's like that, though. It should be pretty fun. It made me think of the guy in the bunny suit on the wall.

Yeah. Unicorn. Unicorn, right, yeah. No, but like you said, he distills, you know, it's all about efficiency distilling down to these very, you know, everything to its finest form, essentially. And that is a constant engine running in his head for everything. What do you think he's going to do next? I think he's, you know, we've had a few conversations about it as this thing started to blow up, you know, and get bigger and bigger.

Talking about, you know, how you manage it and what, you know, and we talked a lot about taking his time. You know, there's no rush to be inspired again. And there's no need to force anything unless he's inspired by it. And so I think he's kind of biding his time. I think he's going to pivot a lot of his attention towards his foundation, which he really believes in. You know, his belief is like, there's no use in being famous if it's not being used for good. And so he has like a good pivot point for it and you know climbing has a lot of different expressions uh speed climbing like he finished this climb went to alaska did a big alpine climb went to antarctica we went to antarctica together he went to broke the speed record on the nose i mean he's actively training and climbing because he has other climbing goals.

But does he need to do another bigger solo? I mean, probably not. I don't know. I mean, if he's inspired. Well, he's definitely played his man card. I mean, he doesn't have anything to prove to anybody or himself, really. It's just his internal drive to express himself express himself yeah and that the funny thing is

it's like he he did it for himself you know he wasn't even trying to play the man card yeah i mean it the beautiful he has that beautiful line in the movie where he's like look it's more important to me to do this what's important is that i do this and do it the way that i want to do it not that it be documented yeah paraphrase i don't remember the timeline but i don't care if it's filmed yeah yeah what about you guys what are you going to do next it's a good question you set the bar pretty high that's i mean i have to say you feel that pressure after marrow we felt that pressure profoundly because it's like doesn't get much you, we fell in love while making Maru. We had a child.

Maru was made for nothing. And then it made all this money. Like there was this like thing that we, could we ever, Maru was Shakespearean as a film. So I'm just excited to do something a little different. Like we began working on a film concurrently about Christine Tompkins and Tompkins Conservation. And Christine Tompkins and the late Doug Tompkins. And it's kind of like an out of Africa for our generation.

It's like it's building on this idea of intention, a life of intention. It's a little more radical, even than free soloing. There is a mountain, but not a main mountain. This is like a whole new thing for Jimmy. But these are his best friends. These are mine. And it's just, I'm excited to, I've never made, we've never made a film about someone who's passed already.

And so Doug Tompkins died several years ago, tragically. And like, that's kind of an interesting challenge. And the characters are so rich on this film and there's a lot of archival. So I'm excited to kind of tackle with something else while we are exploring what else is in our future. But it's deeply meaningful to me and to Chai. And we've, you know, Yvonne Chouinard and Doug and Chris and Rick Ridgway, that circle of friends have been,

well, clearly an influence on a lot of people, but, you know, have been very dear kind of mentors and friends that I've looked up to for a very long time and I've gotten to know for over the last 15, 20 years. And our kids get to go to Patagonia. It's going to be great. And we have, yeah, we love them, you know, deeply. Family traveling. And so there feels like a lot of, yeah, inspiration and meaning behind it. You know, I don't want, I only want to, well, as you can imagine, you throw down a lot for documentaries.

Yeah. And. You're basically making a decision for the next. Few years. How many years. Yeah. We get faster though. I found like, this is my however many years. We get faster, though. I found, like, this is my sixth film now.

This will be my seventh. I feel like every film I've basically cut the ratio in half. But doesn't the story dictate that? Sure. But you also get better. Yeah. It's clear. Well, you have, I mean, there's something magical in the alchemy between the two of you.

You know, Manhattan, born and bred, Minnesota, Wyoming, climber, like it's a, you know, it's an unlikely pairing, but there's something really cool in how you compliment each other. Well, we both come from Chinese tiger moms. Like, I mean, okay, like our moms probably had a lot in common. And it's something that's-

Was it full on tiger mom? Oh, yeah. Oh, I'm half. Like I'm half Chinese. So I had like this whole nice Hungarian, Brazilian, like professorial dad who like very much wants me to do what I believe in, whereas my mom still will be like, it's not too late to go to med school. Yeah. You're so good with your hands. My mom is not a tiger mom.

She's not Chinese, but she still asks me if she thinks I'm 52 years old and I'm going to go to medical school. When are you going to get a real job? I get that a lot. But anyway, go ahead. No, no, it's a thing. But it's definitely this deep—we know where each other comes from when it comes to the really important things. And that's something that's very safe and warm and special for both of us, I think. But you have this Upper East Side rearing.

People say this like it's like a poison. My parents were immigrants. They moved. I was conceived in L.A. Clear the record. My dad was a professor at Columbia. It was a good place to raise kids. The same way that Jimmy's parents had read that Minnesota was a good place to move to raise children.

And so there were librarians at the University of Minnesota, Mankato. So it's like we had, it was, I think New York City has this like bad rap where I would more say like there's this opportunity to go to an amazing girl school you know that shaped everything for me um and let us eat chinese food every weekend you know like it's like the city with everything um but both my parents worked and were also really dedicated to my brother and myself so it i don't know and jimmy you have academic parents but tiger mom like how do you get you like I don't know. And Jimmy, you have academic parents, but Tiger Mom, like how do you get, you know,

like we don't have time to explore your whole backstory. We got to wrap this up. No, no. Both parents were highly attuned to excellence. Yeah. I mean,

Jimmy played till book 15 of Suzuki. Okay. Like he is like a really accomplished musician. I started playing violin when I was three. I mean, we still have this violin. It is amazing. Like it's like a really accomplished musician. I started playing violin when I was three. I mean, we still have this violin.

It is amazing. Like it's this big. Yeah. And I played through high school and then I picked up a guitar. He was swimming. He was like all like, I mean, swim champion of Minnesota. There was no drive there. And martial arts.

I basically competed in, you know, you were a swimmer. You have meets every weekend, but they were throwing in martial arts competitions on top of them. Oh, wow. And playing the violin. Yeah, and playing. And to do it all. So he was ready for the Mean Streets of Manhattan. Yeah.

So what do they think of what you're doing now? Well, they've both passed. Oh, they have. I'm sorry. Yeah. But they, you know, they got to see it. I'm very happy that they got to see. But they got to see it.

I'm very happy that they got to see. Once I started publishing and I was in the magazines and stuff like that, my mom had a stack of magazines this big with little markers sticking out of them in the living room. And I'd be like, Mom, that's so embarrassing. Can you put that away? But it's like she would just put all of them. So she was, yeah. And your dad was pretty proud of our two kids.

Yeah. That was also like a big event in everyone's lives. Yeah. It's cool. All right. Well, I got to release you guys to your lives. But I thought a good way to kind of close it down would be to maybe impart a little bit of inspiration or wisdom to the aspiring filmmakers out there. I mean, you guys have achieved something extraordinary with the work that you have done and I have no doubt will continue to do for people out there

that are interested in either narrative or documentary filmmaking and are struggling to figure out their voice or how to get going, what can you say to those people? I think that making films is hard. So if you're going to make a film, it should be about something that is incredibly meaningful to you.

And that's why you would use your voice um so that that meaning you know find that meaning you know and it's okay to wait until you find it or like bumble along the way and find it later but it just it should be meaningful yeah i i mean i would echo that i mean it's it's really about finding, it's a bigger question. It's about finding your purpose and finding what gives you meaning and finding things that you're inspired and passionate about. Because like Chai said, it's very hard to make films, but when you find something that gives you that drive and purpose, it's a lot.

You have to be relentless regardless. It's a lot easier when you find something that has a lot of meaning behind it. Cool. All right. I think that's a good way to end it, you guys. Yeah. Thank you so much for having us here. We're very sincere.

Thank you. It for having us here. We're very sincere. Thank you. It's an extraordinary accomplishment. Free Solo, which should have been called Solo, by the way, except for a pesky Star Wars film that happened to come out, right? Alex told me that was the original title. It was, and we tried. We were like, we will fly in defiance now that Nacho was just bought by Disney. Why couldn't we? But the legal wouldn't let us do it.

And then ultimately, I think that free solo solved a lot of problems for us, like narrative problems. Like, it was still an elusive concept for everybody. What is free solo? So we just called the movie Free Solos. And suddenly, like, all the problems went away. Yeah. Now I can't imagine it being called anything else. Yeah.

Yeah, like I said, extraordinary accomplishment. It's funny. It's riveting. It's harrowing. It's beautiful. I saw Brett Morgan tweeted that you should be getting a cinematography Oscar for it, which is high praise from a master documentary filmmaker. I think all that praise is well earned. It's super cool and exciting to see the response that the

film is getting. I think it's only going to continue to build. And the beautiful thing about documentaries is they get that opportunity to build and find their audience. And this has got to be, it's a great time for you guys. It's so cool. So I'm excited for you. I look forward to seeing you on the stage at the Oscars. We'll see. Fingers crossed. Step by step. Hey, man, I had Brian Fogle in here last year around this time. So anything is possible.

And for those that are listening who haven't seen it yet, please make a point of seeing it. And you will not be disappointed. Cool. Is it everywhere nationwide right now? Yes. And what about internationally? It is opening in England December 14th and more countries to follow. But it is at its widest this weekend.

It's in 400 theaters. So people should go out and see it. Yeah. And if people want to learn, if this is brand new to people and they want to learn more about it, where's the best place for them to go online? freesolofilm.com uh-huh cool anywhere anything else coming up you guys doing talks or anything like that where people can find you and track you down and stalk you our instagrams yeah i'm at jimmy underscore chin and i look for years but you didn't have any posts unless i had it wrong she's just you just joined oh you changed

it i everyone has convinced me to go to change it from like the name that used to make me happy to my own name so it's chai vasarely at chai vasarely cool and i'll put links to all that stuff up and free solo film there you go all right cool thanks. Thanks, you guys. Thank you. Peace. Bye. Beautiful humans, those two. Really hope you enjoyed that as much as I did. Do me a favor, show them some love on the socials. You can find Chai on Instagram at Chai Vazirelli, C-H-A-I-V-A-S-A-R-H-E-L-Y-I. And Jimmy is at Jimmy underscore Chin.

And on Twitter, you can find him at Jim K. Chin. Most importantly, if you have not done so already, please make an immediate appointment to see Free Solo. To learn more about the film, go to freesolofilm.com and check out the YouTube version of this podcast, which, as I mentioned earlier, features clips from the movie. And you can find that at youtube.com forward slash richroll. As always, check out the show notes on the episode page at richroll.com to expand your experience of today's conversation beyond the earbuds.

And if you're looking for nutritional guidance, I urge you to check out our meal planner, the Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. to check out our meal planner, the Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. We have thousands and thousands of plant-based recipes at your fingertips, all customized based on your personal preferences with unlimited grocery lists, grocery delivery in most metropolitan areas, and amazing customer support available seven days a week. It's available to you for just $1.90 a week when you sign up for a year. To find out more and to sign up, go to meals.richroll.com or click on Meal Planner on the top menu on my website. And if you would like to support

the work that we do here on the podcast, there are a couple simple ways to do just that. Tell your friends about your favorite episode, share the show on social media, subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, on YouTube, on Google Podcasts, leave a review on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, on YouTube, on Google Podcasts. Leave a review on Apple Podcasts. That's huge. And you can also support the show on Patreon at richroll.com forward slash donate. I want to thank everybody who helped put on the show today.

Jason Camiolo for audio engineering, production, show notes, interstitial music, all kinds of behind the scenes stuff. Blake Curtis and Margo Lubin for graphics and video and editing. Rhys Robinson for his beautiful portraits. David Kahn for sponsored relationships and theme music, as always, by Analema. Thanks for the love, you guys. See you back here soon, shortly, in a couple days, as a matter of fact, with a really amazing episode with my man, Ross Edgley, with a really amazing episode with my man, Ross Edgley, the guy who just circumnavigated Great Britain swimming. It's an incredible story.

So you have that to look forward to. Until then, be well, see free solo, be grateful, love more freely, take care of yourselves, move your body, eat good food, all the good stuff. Oh yeah, meditate, always meditate and get a good night's sleep peace Thank you.