The Rich Roll Podcast - John Joseph & Mishka Shubaly Are My Reservoir Dogs

Episode Date: February 20, 2020

500 EPISODES. Over seven years ago, I sat down in a damp and echo-y warehouse on the north shore of Kauai and hit record for the very first time. There was no agenda. No commitment to even record a second episode. And certainly zero idea that what began as a fun experiment would evolve into both a passion and a vocation. And yet here we are. Without fail, beginning in late 2012, I have uploaded at least one episode every single week, amassing over 1000 hours of conversation and a global audience that downloads this show more than 3 million times a month — in total, over 70 million streams and counting. The numbers are great, but they fail to capture what is truly meaningful: the opportunity to go deep and unfiltered with some of the most amazing people currently walking planet Earth; and in turn share their incredible wisdom with all of you. Today I give thanks for taking this journey with me -- a calling and a service I consider the best job in the world. It's been a privilege -- a great honor and a profound responsibility I don’t take lightly. I believe in celebrating milestones. So today we do just that. And we do it in style with two of my most most beloved brothers from other mothers. Enter John Joseph and Mishka Shubaly. Between these two gentlemen, I count 14 total previous appearances on the show, including one vivid episode five years past (RRP #95) that involved the three of us huddled on a small bed in a cramped New York City hotel room. Today we fertilize our bromance, reprising those sweet sweet punk rock, Algonquin table vibes with another turntable spin on plants & punk. On running and writing. And on addiction & sobriety. This one is all over the place. No point in even trying to describe it other than that Mishka showed up with a bottle of Pepto Bismol. Kinda says it all. Heads Up: This conversation is packed with expletives. It might even hold the RRP f-bomb record. As many of you know, these laddies simply can’t be muzzled, nor would you want them to be. So just an alert that this episode is neither family friendly nor workplace approved. So pop on the earbuds if you got kiddos in the backseat. And If you’re easily offended, perhaps this one isn’t your cup of tea. 500 episodes. It feels good. So good, I wore a coat and tie to mark the occasion, which you can of course watch on YouTube. And as always, the audio version streams wild and free on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Here's to celebrating with those you love dearly. I sincerely hope you enjoy the exchange. Peace + Plants, Rich

You don't have to have the gun locked and loaded in order to make the decision to change your life. It doesn't have to be lowest ebb. It doesn't have to be blackest night. At any point in your life, you're having a problem with drinking too much, using drugs, smoking, eating, just acting wrong. There's always a way forward. And for me, it's been the connection, the connection between human beings. And that's the, you know, that's the only way that I know how to like navigate this quagmire is through connecting with other people. So, so not alone. Absolutely not alone. Anybody that's using and anybody that's getting high and that's always my message

is look, man, you can't do it alone. You got to reach out for help. You know, it just cost my guitar player his life because the embarrassment and trying to hide what was going on. I think in terms of the four agreements, we make assumptions and that's a problem. We assume people are going to judge us. We assume we're going to be looked down upon. But no, you'd be quite surprised how many people are out there that love you and have compassion. And, you know, they were waiting for you to step forward and admit, hey, man, I got a problem. And that's number one. To solving a problem, you have to admit you have one. That's Mishka Shubali and John Joseph. And this is the Rich Roll Podcast.

The Rich Roll Podcast. Greetings, all you podcast listening humanoids. I am indeed Rich Roll. This is my podcast. Damn good to have you. Real quick up top, people tell me all the time that they'd love to go plant-based, but they just can't part ways with their love affair with cheese. And I get it.

My wife, Julie, gets it. So she actually decided to do something about it, spending the last five years, the better part of the last five years, studying the fine art of artisanal cheese making with this goal, this dream, of creating the world's best plant-based cheese. Cheese so damn good,

you simply cannot believe it's not dairy. And dare I say, she has done it. The evolution of cheese, call it Cheese 2.0, Shreemu will defy everything you thought you knew about how absolutely delicious nut-based cheese can be. To this day, after sampling thousands of wheels, I still can't believe it myself. And I've seen firsthand the expression on people's faces when they try it for the first time. From little kids to finicky, straight-up Parisian cheese snobs, the verdict is unanimously one of gleeful shock. It's vegan, it's paleo, it's dairy-free, it's gluten-free. Shreemu is a direct-to-consumer subscription box model. Each box contains six different cheeses,

shipped straight to your door monthly, bimonthly, or quarterly. Even the unboxing experience is exquisite. So to learn more and sign up, visit shreemu.com, S-R-I-M-U.com, and finally put that dairy cheese addiction in the rearview mirror. Okay, episode 500, my people, 500. Who would have thought? Not me, that's who. If I step into where I was when I hit record on episode one in that warehouse on the north shore of Kauai back in late 2012, there wasn't even a plan for episode two, let alone a vision that this would somehow at some point become a vocation. So let's just leave it at that. Now here we are seven plus years later, a thousand plus hours of talking and along the way meeting some of the most amazing people currently walking the earth from the very well-known to the very much unknown, all of them gems, some

of the most memorable moments of my entire life shared with you guys, a calling and a service I consider not only to be the best job in the world, but also a privilege and honor and a responsibility I don't take lightly. but also a privilege and honor and a responsibility I don't take lightly. And I wanted to celebrate this 500th episode milestone in style. So to break it all down, I decided to bring back two of my most beloved brothers from other mothers. You know them, you love them, John Joseph and Mishka Shubali. Between these two gentlemen, we're talking 14, if I counted correctly, previous appearances on the show, including one memorable episode five years ago,

where the three of us huddled on a bed in a cramped New York City hotel room, RRP 95, if memory serves me. And today we pick it back up, reprising those sweet, sweet punk rock Algonquin table vibes with another turntable spin on plants and punk, on running and writing, and on addiction and sobriety. For those new to the show wondering what exactly is happening right now, beloved brother John Joseph is the product of an almost impossible toagine hard-boiled upbringing. Born from and into abuse, he was reared on the mean streets of Manhattan's Lower East Side, in and out of foster care, and essentially left to fend for himself. It's a life marred by violence, homelessness, drugs, addiction, crime, and prison, and ultimately music saved his life and gave him an entirely new one.

Best known for fronting the legendary hardcore band Cro-Mags, today John lives a life of sobriety, of PMA, positive mental attitude, and ahimsa, nonviolence. A bhakti yoga devotee, he is an 11-time Ironman finisher, two of which he completed with a hernia. He's a motivational speaker. He's an author of three books, Evolution of a Cro-Magnon, Meat is for Pussies, and The PMA Effect, who continues to ferociously tour, compete, perform, write, speak, and serve his fellow man, all fueled on a 100% plant-based diet. Then there's little brother Mishka, freaking Mishka. I can't think of a better way to describe Mishka than stubborn.

If you've been a listener since day one, then this gravelly voiced, self-deprecating creative should ring a warm bell for you. He's a cult singer-songwriter, a van-dwelling vagabond, and an obstinate, dare I say, contumacious, ooh, there's a big word, basically smarmy smartass with an inexplicable penchant for kind of getting in his own way time and time again. However, I gotta say, Mishka is also an indisputably talented master storyteller who somehow, someway finagled a post teaching

writing at Yale. His short tales of drink, drugs, disaster, desire, deception, and their aftermath, most notably the long run, which continues to outsell Finding Ultra, and his latest work, almost too predictably titled This Van Could Be Your Life, topped the Amazon Kindle singles chart. His beautiful memoir entitled, I Swear I'll Make It Up To You, is also a must-read that you got to check out if you haven't already. It's all coming up in a couple of few, but first, let us keep some house, shall we? We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety.

And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because, unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. practices. It's a real problem. A problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs. They've partnered with the best global behavioral health providers to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do.

And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing

and how overwhelming and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem, a problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com, has been solved by the people at recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs. They've partnered with the best global behavioral health providers to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by

insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself. I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. 500. 500 freaking episodes. It's unbelievable. It feels good. I guess so good. In fact, I wore a coat and tie

to mark the occasion, which is a first. You can check that out in the YouTube version at youtube.com forward slash rich roll. And it feels even better to share it all by stoking my favorite bromance. This one is all over the place. I'm not sure I can or really even want to describe the conversation that's about to ensue other than it is an entertaining journey to wit Mishka, a vision for you always, suffering from a spot of Montezuma's revenge, or so he claimed, showed up and promptly placed a bottle of Pepto-Bismol on the podcast desk. So that kind of says it all. Quick heads up, this conversation is chock-a-block with expletives,

maybe even an all-time F-bomb record. So as many of you know, JJ, he just can't be muzzled, nor would you want him to be. So just a heads up that this one isn't workplace approved, so pop on the earbuds if you've got kiddos in the backseat. And if you're easily offended, perhaps this conversation isn't your cup of tea. Okay, let's do it. 500. Hold on yesterday's T-shirt.

I need like a hammock today, man. We'll see if I can stay on the stool. It's been a long time. Don't say the word stool. Yeah. It's a trigger word. You can always get up for an emergency evacuation. It's been a long time since I had to fight this hard to stay on the stool.

So what are we talking about here? Well, let's assume this was like set the stage. First of all, episode 500, I could think of no two better people or the two people that I wanted to do this with than you guys. We are reprising our New York City hotel room encounter from like four or five years ago, what that was. We were in a shoebox.

We were laying in bed together. All three of us on the fucking bed. Sitting on a bed doing it. And this guy's not like a midget like me right like 610 or whatever you and shout out to mishka who's experiencing a little montezuma's revenge at the moment well it was unclear whether you were gonna post up today but you made it yeah i told you up man that's it there was there was no point where i was like, I'm going to bail on the podcast. But there was one point last night where I was like, if I just die, then Rich won't be mad for me not showing up, right? But you were texting me yesterday about how bad it was.

And I was like, well, this is perfect because it basically just creates a platform to deconstruct the sort of trash can fire that is your life. One thing I will say is, man, remember when you used to drink yourself to this point of illness on a regular basis? Constantly. Like, dude, I can't fucking believe I used to live like this, man. This last four days, it's just been like a drug trip. Go out of your way to live that way yeah I think you would go make sure a lot of money to feel this bad pay to pay to feel

that way yeah no shit man so welcome boys thank you thanks for having me yeah man absolutely the podcast is like going through the stratosphere like it's been a with the guests it's been a journey man it's been a journey that you guys go back you guys are the ogs you go back all the way to the beginning so delighted to have you that was one of the things i was thinking when i was like biting my tongue on the way here to like stay in my lane to get here is that like this is a hell of a trip you've taken man you know from like from being a drunk which is like the ultimate of narcissism you know where you just take yourself out of the game completely just following your own pleasure self-obsession

to this thing that you've created man of just like um going so deep into the life of the mind and how much you've given to me, to John, to fucking everybody. To the world. I was telling the Uber guy, he's like, so what are you in L.A. to do? I said, oh, you know, I'm going up to do this podcast, and I was telling him about it. And he's like, oh, yeah, wow. I go, yeah, you know, this is somebody that is living a life of service,

you know, to others with the amount of people that the podcast has helped. I'm not just blowing smoke up your ass, man. I get like fucking hundreds of letters a month of it that people just went down the rabbit hole in your podcast because you just cover everything and not just you know vegan people or whatever it's it goes just the real people that are pushing the envelope challenging themselves overcoming obstacles and just like it's you know i i listen to probably just about every podcast appreciate that that means it's amazing yeah you know i mean it was it was humble beginnings i've said it before but when i started it you know i didn't appreciate that. That means a lot. It's amazing. Yeah. You know, I mean, it was humble beginnings.

I've said it before, but when I started it, you know, I didn't know if I would do a second episode. I was just doing it for fun and following my curiosity. And it's just kind of organically grown from there. You know, it wasn't the result of deciding this is going to be my vocation or like whiteboarding it or creating goals or this is what I want it to be. I honestly just showed up for it every week and it's just kind of come what it's become.

And look, there's luck involved too. Like I was in the right place at the right time and this medium kind of blew up and I'd been doing it for a little bit, but it's just been such a gift. And to your point of like Mishka, of like being this narcissistic alcoholic on a path of self-destruction to one of service.

I mean, I'm, you know, first of all, like I'm still a selfish bastard and prone to my, you know, ego and the victim of a million different character defects. But what I have learned in the hallowed halls of recovery that you so vociferously shun is the value of service and how, you know, when you can orient your life or approach certain circumstances or situations that you find yourself in from a perspective of service and what you can give as opposed to what you can extract from it, that your life goes better and actually you're happier. So I try to enter into all of these with that mindset. All right. That was my exact conversation. You know, this guy came up from Mexico. He's, you know, left a career. They wanted him to be a doctor. And he's you know left a career they wanted him to be a doctor and he's like i just wasn't happy doing it and you know just helping other people service to people is i mean i found my happiness

lies in that too it's but let me ask you this was he listening to the radio no i've never gotten into an uber or a lyft where they were listening to a podcast. So I'm always like, hey, you ever listen to a podcast? And they're like, yeah, I don't really know what that is. You know, it's weird. It's like you're driving around all day. You would think more ride share people would be doing that. But you know what? He told me that's what he does.

He listens to meditation podcasts and puts them on for people. That's cool. He actually got out of the car to pet your dog. He's like, who's this beautiful creature? But I talked to him about you know diet and stuff too we had a good talk the whole time I wasn't sitting there like a fucking you know classic JJ yeah and he's like well you know I stay plant based but then when I go to my relatives in Mexico then they that's what they make for me and um you know whatever

went down the rabbit hole on that one the uh the best advice i ever got in my life was from a taxi driver like 15 years ago or something of course and uh he said uh everybody's got to work but you get to decide who you work for and he was like me i work for me you know and that blew my fucking mind you know because like it was just like everybody's at that time in new york everybody's working for startups and like you know you know you gotta have uh you gotta have the money you know just this like naked fetishization of wealth and then i was like nah i could just work for me and like for what's important for me you know like i got a van you know i was i was like waiting for when the car

shit would come up you know i got a new truck you're gonna love it man it's it's awesome i saw a photo of that i got rid of the van it's a 92 man i know i follow him and like all his tour stories it's only 28 it's only 28 years old it's tight man it's just getting broken in i'm so old that when i hear 92 i was like oh that's pretty new it doesn't register till we get to the 70s like okay i know so what happened you were in mexico yeah i was down in mexico uh visiting my uncle he goes down there uh every year he got sober in mexico he fell down hit his head and then he he like you know he's a religious guy and he was like i had a miracle from jesus and he just removed my urge to drink wow and he so he's been sober nine or ten years clarity yeah and um and uh and he went to meetings

and stuff he doesn't go you know anymore but he stayed sober and uh so i just go down there you know every year to just hang out with my uncle and like just chill out and drink tap water oh man where in mexico uh sayulita which is north of puerto vallarta it's a little surfing village the um and uh it was it's great man because i was like oh i'm gonna see rich i'm gonna see jj and like i've been doing good with my diet i started running again banged out 10 miles the other day like no problems didn't even feel sore the next day and i was like oh my stomach feels a little weird uh-huh fucking four days later you've been laid out pretty badly yeah yeah just like just you know there's that like the level of sickness where you're like,

am I going to die? And then you're like, please let me die. Please just, just let me die. You know, it's like last night I was sick enough that if there had been somebody there for me to cry to, I would have cried for sure. I was just alone on my friend's couch. Like, oh God. Well, I've, I've stayed pretty close with jj over the last couple years but i haven't seen you in quite some time man it's been it's

probably the longest since i've known you that i've gone without like being in in pretty close contact with you yeah i uh i sort of i sort of went off the map for a minute there i went out and did five months on the road without a break uh-huh never do that never fucking do that i could have told you that never i told you that a couple years ago you were playing some like crazy places too so yeah basically for people that are listening or that are new and haven't heard our past episodes mishka lives this life where you're essentially living out of your car hitting these dive bars and doing like gigs on the nightly, right?

Just kind of driving around the US and across Europe. I mean, the last time I saw you, I think, was when we were both in London at the same time. Yeah, yeah. And you were playing a little bar there. But since that time, like that's basically what you've been doing, right? Yep.

Just gigging out at these little um what i have holes so like um what year is it the 2020 so uh 2018 i bought a place i sort of like after five months i just like fucking lost my mind and i was my mom was living in phoenix and i was like i'm just gonna rent an apartment there and then i looked into it and it was cheaper just to buy a house. So I bought this 100-year-old house that's falling apart and moved there. And then I've been trying to put down roots, man. My mom lives down the street now, and I have a house. I got a cat. Wow.

I got a little special needs cat. How often are you there? The, um, I don't know, man, after this, after this, like I got real sick when I was in Europe, uh, last summer. And then after getting like real sick again, I might be staying home for a minute, man. I'm like, I just feel, I'm like, I'm trying not to make any big decisions right now. Cause you know, like if you're super sick, you've been sick for a while, you know, like it seems just everything goes out the window, you know, your, your, your image of yourself, your plans for the future, your mental health, all that shit. And right now I'm just like, oh yeah, my life's over, you know, but no,

I have a great year ahead of me and I've been building a really good life in Phoenix. Good. I'm glad to hear that, man. And I'm going to stability. I'm going to be taking some time off the road too. You need to do that. Yeah. Come on,

man. From JJ. Who's been on and off the road for how many years at this point? 39 years, man. Yeah. So you just wrapped a tour recently, didn't you?

Yeah. We, Chrome eggs were out with a clutch and uh kill switch and then before that with hate breed uh-huh and then we did some you know you do these like big european yeah we did like europe hardcore oh yeah festivals 25 30 000 people we played up in canada 77 Festival, which is- We don't hit the same venues. No, I know. It's a different demographic.

I got to tell you, I'm going to tell you right now, the best fucking gigs is not when there's a barricade and there's all these people. It's that small venue with 500 people or 300 people packed in there. And it's like, you know, just going ape shit. Yeah. Knocking my fucking teeth out and whatever the fuck is happening. I remember seeing you guys in New York some years back and it was like no time had passed.

You know, it was just like this shit is happening right now. And it is. It's always just been about the connection between the people. Right. I think that's what keeps you continuing to do this like it's there's nothing like that one-on-one i mean for you they're very intimate right like you get these small crowds of people and you know you have this like super devoted you know interesting like cross-section of humanity that turns up you know to see you play just hen Henry Rollins did a thing on VH1 like a year back.

They still show it occasionally. And he was like, I love Henry. When I left the Navy, I stayed at his house with Ian Mackay. But he said that way back in the day, everybody, you know, when you saw a band, it like the dd's on stage and you're 100 yards away and i was just talking with your producer and he talking about seeing sabbath and everything and then all of a sudden there's no barricade and henry rollins said he went to see the bad brains and i think it was 79 andR. the singer jumped off the stage and knocked him down

and was screaming over him into the mic. And Henry just looked at him and was like, I'm going to do this for the rest of my fucking life. And that's the energy that comes from those types of shows, you know? Well, Henry's an interesting dude. I mean, he's sort of uh you know now much more of like a spoken word artist he gets up and does these one-man shows he's such you gotta get him on man he'd be incredible you gotta get him on and he goes on these crazy world travels where

he just drops himself into the middle of like a place he would never choose to go just so he can like learn about what's going on he's an amazing fucking world. He's an amazing fucking guy. And I saw SOA, one of his earlier bands, and then he auditioned for Black Flag at the Bad Brain Studio, 171A. And then his first show with Black Flag was at the Mud Club. And he fucking came out, I think it was early 81 no fucking shoes no shirt barefoot and just fucking ripped it and i was like holy shit like but he cut his teeth like the 9 30 club

in dc right 9 30 and even you know at uh madam's organ and and the whole scene that, you know, back then it was like they would do shows just out in the middle of wherever the fuck. I remember they did this. There was a big show out in Virginia and it was at a, it was Red Sea and a bunch of other bands and everybody got in these vans. The bar was called the Branding Iron. And we get out there. It's a fucking country bar. There's tables up to the stage with dudes with 10-gallon hats, no idea of what the fuck is about to go down. They didn't make it past two songs of the first band. Everybody started

stage diving, wrecked the club. They called the cops. But yeah, Henry, you know, Henry goes way back and he'll even tell you himself the greatest influence in that whole scene to him was Bad Brains. And then they went, those guys went out to California and checked out the whole West Coast scene. You know, the Black Flags and Circle Jerks and Dead Kennedys and that whole thing that was going on and then brought that whole thing back east. So where was Henry when you crashed with him? He was living outside of Georgetown. I think him and Ian had an apartment in Alexandria, I think it was.

I'm not sure. But was Black Flag in full effect at that point? No, it was... He had taken some time off, like SOA, State of Alert broke up. And then he was just working at like a deli on, I think, in Georgetown. And the funny shit was I was AWOL. He let me stay there. I had just split from the Navy.

And I stayed there like a little over a week and eating his food every day. shit was i was awol he let me stay there i had just split from the navy and uh it was like he let i stayed there like a little over a week and eating his food every day he's like yo you gotta get the fuck out so uh the the undead played at the 9 30 club and uh they were from new york so i i said yo can you drive me up to new york man? And that, but yeah, those, you know, and I talk about, you know, now you get these dudes going into mosh pit and they're fucking throwing kicks at each other. And it's like, it was never like that. When I first saw it, it was like this tribal dance and you had like a thousand people and Henry Rollins just leading the pack,

like creepy crawling around to the Dead Kennedys holiday in Cambodia. And nobody would even, there'd be a thousand dudes creepy crawling and nobody would even fucking bump into each other. So what do you think it is about him that makes him special and different? He lived his shit. He's, you know henry just fucking lived that shit he just said no i'm gonna do this and never fucking back down he played music you know did he has the book get in the van and it talks all the whole fucking story about being in black flag

and uh he has an unmatched level of intensity right yeah i mean it's just like you know 100% yeah he's any you know he was always physically fit too he started getting into training a lot and and uh always keeping fit and putting you know never and what i appreciated too was the fact that you know he didn't get fucked up and take drugs and go on stage and make excuses, sorry for the shitty show. Every time he went, he's the consummate professional. He went on stage and he fucking killed it and did it for year after year after year. And then he started writing the books and it was always diy do it yourself and you know and then ian started that label um you

know um what do you call it down in uh down in dc and started putting out all the records they always did the shit themselves like even that was the aesthetic of the whole movement yeah it was like why should these even with the chrome eggs we started, nobody would fucking touch us. So we paid and went and did a fucking demo ourselves and it got all over the country to the point where Metallica was fucking coming to see us. But we were always like, fuck the establishment. Why are we going to wait for what dribbles down their fucking leg? Let's just go get it ourselves.

They're not paying to see the label or the manager or the whatever they're there to see the band so let's fucking give them you know what they came to to to see you know you've always been diy yeah but i will say that the aesthetic that that jj talks about of like always being there always giving 100 that was the kind of thing that my friends and i shit on when i was when i was younger and we were you know we were like way more into like dead boys and shit like that i was just like you know like the fucking junkies with guitars the detached irony and cynicism and you know what like you guys were right man do you know we were wrong it's like that shit gets old fast hilly crystal that used to own cbgb's before it

closed used to pay the dead boys with a sack of hamburgers and and and a fucking bundle of heroin they got and then and then cheetah and then would go out back and fucking in the artist's alley behind CB's and fucking bang dope. It was a different... I saw that whole junkie punk rock shit in the 70s. My first girl died from that, from heroin. But that's what I liked about Discord. That's Ian's label. Yeah, yeah.

And what those guys all did was it was like, fuck that fucking sex, drugs, and rock and roll bullshit. We're going to fucking do it this way. And like I said, if you live that fantasy life, very few of those people, first of all, survived it. And second of all, are still out there doing it. Third of all, at the level that you could go see Henry and he'll still kill it or, or blood cloud or Cro-Mags or whatever.

And it's like, you have to attribute that to, you know, speaking of which, that's why you're in LA, right? You're rehearsing with this new band or you got new band members. It's the same band.

Unfortunately, uh, our guitar player, Todd youth, uh, had a substance problem and he relapsed right after the first tour and he got some of that fentanyl shit that's going around and he died. It was a travesty because he's been a friend of mine since he first showed up on the scene

in 83 in New York. He was probably 12. And since he first showed up on the scene in 83 in New York, he was probably 12. He ran away from a home and we had similar stories. So I was like 21 and fucking street motherfucker down there. I'm like, nobody touches this fucking kid. We've been friends years and years and years. We had another band that opened up for the Red Hot Chili Peppers on the Mother's Milk tour.

So we just been down a long road together. And then we do this album and everyone's bugging the fuck out. It's called Up In Arms and it just started doing so well. And then he came off tour and had problems in his marriage, and she decided to leave, and he fucking relapsed and passed away. It was fucked up. How long ago was that? About a year and a half ago now. We waited, but we have a responsibility in the business aspect of like Metal Blade, Brian

Slagle fucking, we got hooked up with that deal through Tal Ronan who owns Crossroads. He was friends with me and Todd and heard the demo and was like, can I give this shit to Brian Slagle? Brian Slagle fucking signed us with Michael Alago who signed Metallica, got us the deal we wanted. And it just, so we waited for this time to audition. This motherfucker don't even have to audition. I don't want to drop his name yet because we want to wait till the band makes a statement about it.

But he's a fucking virtuoso, and he's been doing this shit for a long time. And we're excited to have him in the band. And me and him wrote five or six new songs in New York. He's from New York, so we've been writing stuff, and he learned the record. And yeah, so initially- You got to tell us who it is when we're off mic.

I will tell you, but he's a monster fucking guitar player. It's been in huge bands, and he's a friend. And he's clean and sober now, like any of us. We all had our issues,, you know, soldier on, man, Joey Castillo, the drummer had issues, Nick had issues, all of us, but, you know, you're stronger as a team than an individual. So, and that's, that was the thing with Todd was he never would reveal his mind and confidence, which is one of the qualities of a devotee, because he was a Hare Krishna too, was that you're supposed to reveal your mind and confidence to other people on the path. And he wouldn't do that. And he would hide it from that he was using.

But that's what addicts do. Right. But the thing is i've been down in that shit since 76 i know when somebody's high and i was calling him on it and then he just cut off all fucking ties he wouldn't answer his phone like all this shit and you know anybody that's using and anybody that's getting high, that's always my message is, look, man, you can't fucking do it alone. You got to reach out for help. You know, nobody's going to judge you. That's what he thought that, oh, man, I relapsed.

The embarrassment. The embarrassment could cause death if you let it. 100%. death. Yeah. If you let it. Yeah. A hundred percent. I mean, that's the number one driver, shame, you know, especially with somebody who relapses, who had some time or knows what that kind of recovery community is all about. There's so much fear and shame that prevents them from going back. And I think that it's a default instinct amongst alcoholics and addicts to want to try to solve the problem alone. And that's driven by fear and shame, right?

Like I don't need anybody's help. I'm not gonna tell anybody, I'm just gonna solve this. And then I'll emerge, you know, whole once again. And that's what drives people to, you know, jails, institutions, and ultimately death, because it really isn't something that you can do alone. And I'm not saying that there aren't people that have, I'm sure there are people that have gotten sober

and stayed sober by themselves, but that's not the story that you typically hear. And I think what's interesting about the three of us is that, you know, we're all clean and sober and we all have been, you know, that way for quite some time, varying lengths of time. We've done it in different ways though, right? So how long, John, like how long have you been clean and sober?

Well, you know, speaking of the embarrassment, different ways though right so how long john like how long have you been clean and sober um well you know speaking of the embarrassment you know i hooked up with the bad brains and then did all that shit in the early 80s and then i relapsed after eight years 88 to 90 and at first we're on crack pills booze the whole shit i tried to hide it, and then it just was like, fuck that, everybody knew. And I went through all that shit. And then the 90s, I said, I almost got murdered. And I was like, that's it. It was real shit.

I had AR-15s fucking, the whole shit. It was some crazy shit. Right. And so I turned to other people and got the help, you know, and I kicked right in the neighborhood walking past motherfucking Smokin' Crack, like in Alphabet City. But then I got completely sober, but then I started in 898, you know, having DJ parties and doing fucking brownies and shrooms and weed shakes aj from chromags used to call me shakes the clown because i would do these like you know vegan um lattes with like weed that i cooked in coconut oil and and i was just getting when was this fucked up 98 oh wow i didn't know that all the to 2000. And then 9-11 hit. And several things happened. I had to do an intervention on my younger brother again.

Frank almost died the day before 9-11. And then this lady called me. She's like, your brother's dying. You better come get him. And I had to go to Staten Island, drag him out of an attic, take him to my house. Had him on a flight the next day to fucking rehab in St. Thomas. Boom, planes hit, didn't go. And then all this shit started happening.

And I'm like seeing, you know, my father, what, what the, his whole alcoholism thing, what it did to the family. And my mother telling me she was raped. That's how I was born. I just started seeing so much bad shit and bad juju and involved around anybody that was in my life that was using that i was like that's fucking it and i got popped i had a weed business i was delivering a fucking dave chappelle everybody i didn't know this part oh yeah how many how many hundreds of hours have i been in conversation i had a weed business i keep thinking i've i've like tapped out on the number of stories that you have i had a weed business i started working for the pope a pot 1-800-1-POT but then

i worked for other services and then i said fuck this i could do it myself so i got huge modeling agencies would call me and everybody had my number, including Dave Chappelle's agent from TriStar Pictures, Matt Hine. So Dave Chappelle was one of my customers. And I used to put all the weed. I used to ride a $7,000, $8,000 professional bike, put all the weed inside a black water bottle in the cage. And I just rode around in bike gear, looking like I was out for a ride. professional bike put all the weed inside a black water bottle in the cage and i've just rode around in bike gear like looking like i was out for a ride and then uh that's how you got into

the iron man shit yeah that weed is the gateway drug to uh to iron man shit no but the thing was it was during the bad weather i had somebody me, this guy Scott, and just this freak shit happened. I would never, it always had to be a referral and I had to call the person. It was like real tight. I didn't just fucking sell shit on the street. So it was this fucking dumb ass fucking businessman dude tells me, oh, I'm at this bar. And I got popped, bottom line. tells me, oh, I'm at this bar, come, and I got popped, bottom line, and then AJ Novello,

who was in leeway in the Cro-Mags since 92, was like, he said, you know, I talked to my Swami, he's this incredible astrologist from India, and he'd said so much shit that fucking about people he was able to do their charts and see like a vedic astrologer fucking unbelievable from india like the real deal and aj said to him should i i'm thinking about doing this music again this side project with my singer and he goes yeah you can do it once he gets out of prison because that's where he's going and I was like and he needs to stop doing drugs because some bad stuff is in his chart and right after AJ told me that I got busted and then all this shit happened with you know my brother and all this other shit and i'm like you know what that's it so since uh right since right right around 9 11 i just i just got sober so fucking 19 years man of uh you know doing the do and not even like because i started feeling like even smoking weed

i had to smoke the whole bag i had to you know i'm an addict i can't just I had to smoke the whole bag. I'm an addict. I had to smoke the whole bag of rocks of crack and then freebase and then go rob motherfuckers to get their shit, whatever. That's the way I've always been with my addiction problem. I would drink the whole bottle. I would take fucking three Placidils or 2-in-1s or quaaludes or whatever the fuck i was doing and i'm like i'm gonna fucking die it's in the cards i gotta fucking stop and then shortly after i started you know training for marathons and then all good which led to but you never went to 12 step never but i i i did move into Krishna Temple.

I mean, your program of recovery is very much a spiritual program, but it's one of your own design. Yeah. Yeah. But it's not isolating. I knew I couldn't do it on my own. I had to be around people with the PMA, like I always say, and those touchstones that people like yourself and everybody else who's been through it and done it and are on the higher path. I made sure that I would fucking to the point of like, they'd be like, yo, dude, it's kind of creepy.

Like how much I wanted to just, I was like, bro, I just need to be around positive people. It was that type of thing where I'm like, everything is by association in Sanskrit, Bhakti Sangha, and who we hang out with, we take on those qualities. And I wanted the qualities of the fucking badasses on the planet that get shit done under any and all circumstances. And I knew it wasn't going to happen. I started distancing myself from people who always made excuses and you know all that other shit that uh always playing the victim and all you know always me and everyone's out there you know i just was like not that i don't have compassion to try to help

them but it wasn't helping me in my life being around those people. Have you ever gotten close to a relapse since then? Not at all, man. Because that's why my girl didn't understand, Erica didn't understand why I do the Ironman stuff. And I'm like, you know, listen, man. And my coach originally was Orion Mims. And he goes, you know, and he's been through fucking hell. He's a fucking brother. He's had a

fucked up family life african-american boxed all the shit and he was like you know we're all running from this keeps the demons at bay you know and for me it's like the writing the training all of that stuff uh is what helps beat the mind with a stick every day. So when someone says to you, you've just replaced one addiction for another, you stopped with the crack and the weed and the booze, et cetera, and you've replaced that with Ironman training. How do you respond to that? I say, yeah, that and good diet. But what the fuck? What would you rather would you rather be someone just said that's funny enough this is your drug and i go yeah it's my drug of choice but guess what i get high as

fuck off of it i'm in shape i help other people and so it's either that or you're gonna fucking die like what do you what like what's what's the alternative to that Mishka has a good retort to that question. But well, the thing I came up with most recently is, no, I didn't just replace one addiction with another. I replaced, you know, in your case, the, you know, crack smoking, you know, robber junkie with an elite athlete who fucking inspires hundreds of thousands of people.

So people are going to find a way to hate on whatever you do for, you know, any reason. It's a hate culture. Yeah. Like you told me one time when you got asked that question, you said, the drink, here's how I think about it. Like the drink was always the easy choice and putting on the running shoes in the morning is the hard choice. Yeah, dude. Especially today. Well, you aren't going running today. Oh man. To the bathroom, man.

Yeah, that's about it. Yeah, so I have an audio book coming out in March about how I quit drinking and what my process was with that. Cold turkey. Yeah, so I did a lot of research into that. This whole replacing one addiction with another, it's fucking, it's bullshit.

It's fabrication. There's been no evidence of people who are prone to one addiction replacing one addiction with another. on it until the early 2000s and then there was a study from 2001 to 2004 that shows that if you had if you're an alcoholic and then you deal with being an alcoholic you're much less likely to have a cross addiction you know to develop a cross addiction to something else than somebody who's still a functional alcoholic who becomes addicted to fast food or coke or smoke counterintuitive about that. I mean, you're saying someone who deals with their alcoholism like if you're just a dry drunk

and you've got no spiritual program, then in my experience, that person is much more likely to find themselves trying to alter their interior landscape by, you know, gambling or sex or, you know, whatever it is, they'll find some other way to, because you're not, if you're not dealing with the underlying disease, that feeling of, of disease, that feeling of like, not, not feeling comfortable in your own skin, you're going to, you're going to, you're going to latch on to some other way of like altering your consciousness. Yeah. I mean the, you know, I have two responses to that. You

know, one thing is that the, you know, this study it's saying you know, people it's, it there's, they're not comparing those people to, you know, to normal folks that it's just comparing people who are actively practicing or actively using and people who are no longer actively using. So I don't think that it's perfect data there. But what you describe, a dry drunk with no spiritual program, by your terminology, that's me, bro. I know. Come at me, bro. That's what I'm saying.

So you've been hit me while I'm down, right? You've been sober how long at this point uh 10 years now or you've you've maybe i should say you've abstained i i'm sober i'm not qualitative difference yeah i mean one of the things i wanted to you know to address um you know is i i'm not uh i'm not clean by that terminology like i you know i use uh mushrooms a couple times a year infrequently i'll smoke pot or something like that the you know more and more though like you know i have a bag of mushrooms in my freezer and it's been there for eight months ten months like i just don't have the time to get around to

doing it um because i'm doing other shit you know um but i just wanted to sort of fact check that okay well one thing that i i look at it is and i always said this the amount of time and effort and energy that goes into maintaining a habit if you redirected that energy toward anything positive. For me, it was like, I'm like all this shit that I had to go through to get the coke- Rob Markman Exhausting. Rob Markman... to freebase it. And in my case, it had to do with strong arm robbing motherfuckers, which could get me killed. And the amount of energy, even a junkie who has a bundle a day habit, and I see it all

the time still to this day there's functioning junkies out there who can hold down a fucking nine to five put on a fucking suit and they got a habit and they got to do a bundle a day or half a bundle a day or what's interesting about those people is i think most people would be surprised at how undetectable it is you know there's a lot of like sort of- Unless you've really been around it. Like, you know, functioning heroin addicts or whatever. And you can't necessarily tell.

I can tell. Because you have this image from television or whatever that, you know, it's like a dude who weighs 100 pounds and, you know, his eyes are sunken into his head. Nah, man, it ain't like that. There's dudes that are fucking popping fucking oxys and all kinds of shit. And it's like, unless you really know, and I've been around, like I said, since I'm 13 years old and I'm fucking 58 this year. So that's a lot of years in the fucking trenches of the drugs. And I can pretty much tell. Dude, if you guys, if these junkies allocated that amount of time, they could be running fucking Fortune 500 companies.

I'm like, holy shit, the creative shit that they had to do. Right. Fucking. The resiliency. The stories. And the resiliency every fucking day and the scams and the schemes. I know. scams and the schemes. And I mean, I was there doing it myself, but I'm like, I just, it's not replace, it's, it's, it's redirecting your energy at more than it is replacing one addiction for

another. And the thing is, when I redirected all that energy, I was wasting and getting high and all the other bullshit, the negative bullshit, my life started taking a very positive turn. And I was thus able to tell other people going through it like yo here's what you got to do replace all that energy put the energy here you know go go fucking do this you know and um similarly this is a conversation that dates back to the the first day that i met mishka shortly after the long run came out, the amount of energy that, that Mishka puts into resisting like a spiritual program. We'll just call it that.

If I stop resisting, what are we going to have to talk about? I was like, I'll quit getting called to be on the podcast. Imagine the world that would open up to Mishka if he would avail himself of the, you know, the higher powers that be.

Well, look at it this way. You're familiar with that you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. I'm very familiar with that. We're in that dynamic right now. There are dogs that just want to sit on the couch and smell their farts all day, and then there are dogs that want to run.

And JJ is a dog that wants to fucking run couch and smell their farts all day. And then there are dogs that want to run. And like, JJ is a dog that wants to fucking run, you know, like give him something, give him something to pull against and he'll pull against it. You know, the, you know, but like what I,

I'm going to go into it with this. I'm going to say thank you to both of you guys. Cause like I was thinking on the way over here, I was thinking, you know, thinking about the PMA shit. And again, it's one of those things when we were kids,

we used to mock that shit and you were things. When we were kids, we used to mock that shit. And you were right and we were wrong. And I need to get more of that in my life. I brought a copy of the book for you. I don't know if you have it. But I did. I said, this motherfucker needs to get the book. So I got one for you.

Got to get right with God. But you're booked a long run. If you haven't read it and you're dealing with shit go get that fucking book just so people that are listening if they're newer to the program and don't know the history here like we go way back like we were i met you early days of the podcast you had written this kindle single the long run that was like the number one best-selling. I think it probably to this day is the biggest-selling Kindle single ever. Unbelievable. Right, with the Nike shoe worn out on the cover.

That thing still sells like crazy. And that's what brought us together. So it's like a little, you know, it's longer than a short story, but shorter than a typical book. And it kind of tells the story of how you got sober and discovered running and became this ultra runner. And let's not forget Finding Ultra.

I mean, that book is, you know, I read it out on the road when I'm in the van. I told you, remember, I'm like, holy shit, I just reread your book. I love the story about how you guys met, where JJ cornered you were in like who is this guy it was true i kept writing him and i'm like motherfucker what the fuck this guy's not writing me back vividly now like we were at we were at the sea festival in new york and he like chased

me down a hallway or something i was no we were in the big room i was like who is it i go to brendan i'm like yo that's that fucking Rich Roll guy. Yo, bring me over there, man. I don't remember getting emails from you, though, that went unresponded to. It wasn't never emails. It was on social media. Oh. So I was sending you messages on Instagram or whatever the fuck, and you never wrote me back.

I don't read that stuff most of the time. And then I said to Brendan, because because he knew you i was like yo introduce me and i was like yo motherfucker like what the fuck dude i'm glad to meet you what do you want from me jesus i love you but you're not getting my butt light this this is one of the ways in which i will defend my path is that my existence proves that you can change your life without swallowing the god pill if that's so objectionable to you having been sober for 10 years i'm far more open to spirituality and pma and like you know that shit that i than i ever was before but you know that's you know that's one of the issues

that you know i had with like veganism is that it's it's very like catholic it's either you're like cultish it's either you're righteous you know and like no you know um no animal anything will ever pass your lips or you're an outcast you know and obviously that's you know dramatic there's a lot yeah you know dramatized but that's dramatic and there's also a lot of projection in that too right but people say but do people do say that you know and that's how a lot of people perceive it and that's that's one of the things that i think prevented me from getting sober for a long time was that like it's not just that you need to stop the only thing in this world that you're good at which is fucking drinking high life and sitting on a bar stool for 12 to 14 hours.

But also you have to believe in God, which is something you've never had and you've never needed, you know? Well, but that's not completely accurate. I mean, basically, you know, in 12 step, we gotta be a little bit careful here because I don't wanna like run too foul of the traditions. But the only requirement is to have a little bit careful here because I don't want to like run too foul of the traditions.

But the only requirement is to have a desire to stop drinking. And in terms of God, it's just a belief in a higher power. And what I always say to people that have issues around God or have a lot of baggage around the church or et cetera or whatever, you know, that's, and I would put most people in that category is that it's a higher power of your design. It doesn't have to be the God that you grew up with or whatever notion of God, you know, is problematic for you. A higher power just means a power greater than yourself. That could be a collective, a group of people, you know, in a room who've all stayed sober longer than you and have some wisdom around how to do that, that you can summon enough humility to kind of, you know, have the willingness to do what they say as opposed to whatever you want to do. Rich, I love you to death and I believe in higher power, but if it's higher power and not God, why does it say God so many times in

the fucking book? Well, there's a lot of colloquialisms in the book too. You have to also understand that it was written in a certain time. So there's a lot of things in the book that ring weird. That's the thing is the time it was written in, God was God. And it's a book, oh, all right, I gotta slow down here.

But it's a book for straight white men who believe in a Catholic or a Protestant, a Christian God. They go out of their way to use higher power. I hear what you're saying. I understand. believe in a Catholic or a Protestant, a Christian God, you know, and that's- They go out of their way to use higher power. I hear what you're saying. I understand. I'm not against AA, but I do think it needs to evolve. And I think that's something you're arguing in favor of as well. I don't know that I'm, I'm not, listen, you know, I got, I got sober in AA. It keeps me sober. It's an incredible community. And, you know, it's,

Sober in AA, it keeps me sober. It's an incredible community. And my participation in that community is the number one priority in my life. So I'm a champion of it. And I'm always constantly saying, like people need to set aside whatever preconceived ideas they have about what it is and what it isn't.

And just show up with an open mind and listen. And I've seen incredible miracles happen there. But in terms of my open-mindedness, I'm not going to be the person who says it's the only way to get sober. I mean, both of you guys are examples of people who've gotten sober, you know, via different modalities or in ways of your own choosing. So, you know, that being said, like, I'm certainly not going to be dismissive of 12-step either. You know, like, I think it's a miracle of our time that not only has it persisted over the years, but it continues to grow and flourish and hasn't sort of, you know, self-destructed because human beings are behind it. The most fucked up, you know, human beings you can possibly imagine.

I mean, just think about this for a minute. You're gonna get together all of these insane alcoholics and addicts who are all completely fucking out of their minds. See, this sounds awesome. It's just a sobriety thing. And there's an organization. There's an organization.

Sounds like an awesome party until. Explain to me how this organization didn't just completely implode within 30 days of its being constructed you know sheer force of human will it's a it's an incredible thing yeah and it's helped you know thousands and thousands of people and like look a lot of people relapse and die like i know a guy who i just found out the other day who i knew quite well relapsed and died i mean that is just part and parcel of you know being an addict and an alcoholic i mean this is real life shit

the consequences are as high as they get you're on the razor's edge so i'm not anti-aa and i hope that i've never present you know misrepresented myself as being this is the kind of jocular you know the um i just we're always in well no but i just um i i just praise other other methods of getting there that That's all. I just think that there needs to be more different, you know, for every, I mean, and look at it. So AA is this miracle that happened. Can't we conceptualize in our mind

eight or nine or 10 or 20 other similar miracles like AA happening that still help people get to sobriety and to the life that we've found. The only thing I would say to that is that when I get contacted and I do every single day from people who are out there who are struggling, who, you know, can't get sober, I'm not gonna be the person to say to that person,

oh, well, you can do it your own way. I'm gonna be like, here's what you do. And I give them very concrete, direct actions that they can take that have, in my experience, proven to work when they're done properly, as opposed to like, well, there's lots of ways like you go figure it out. Like, I can't say that to that person.

I smile because one of my writing students, like, he wants me to explain, oh, how do I get from here to here? And I'm like, well, fucking figure it out, dude. You need to be able to know how to do this. I can tell you how it's done. But as a writer, you need to be able to solve these problems. And every time I say figure it out, he, like, threatens my life. I have a friend that is very involved in the ayahuasca community.

And he recently told me something because I kind of slagged it, that whole hallucinogenic thing in my book. And at first, just the ego, I'm like, what are you talking about, man? It's fucking drugs. First, just the ego. I'm like, what are you talking about, man? It's fucking drugs. And then I'm like, wait a minute. This guy's helping people that have been stone cold, straight up.

Jonathan Shaw, the famous tattoo artist and everything. And he's a really good friend of mine. I knew, you know. Oh, is he the one who did that book? Yeah. Yeah. And he's done a bunch of books. Johnny Depp put out his book.

But he goes, hey, man, you know, like, I just want to tell you, I have a ton of respect for everything, you know, you did. And we sat down. We were at Juice Press in New York. He goes, but listen, man, you know, you shouldn't be dissing this. This is a ceremony. This is like, you know, some magical stuff that's going on. And I've helped people that have been stone cold fucking junkies for 20 fucking years and nothing worked for them.

NA, they got sick of going to the rooms. It just, all of that stuff. And then we go down and we do these ayahuasca ceremonies under you know a master that knows how to do the whole thing and he's like dude they were they just fucking gave up the drugs and i'm like you know what i said you know what bro you're right and and i won't, it's not for me, but I'm not gonna diss something that's helping a lot of fucking people. And they were able to clean up and get off drugs

through that particular- Modality. Yeah. I mean, one of the kind of core sayings in recovery is like, you know, don't succumb to contempt prior to investigation. That's what he told me. He goes, he gave me that fucking quote. He said what he read to me.

He told me that and I was like, yo, you're fucking right. And I say that, yeah, and I say that to people who have a lot of baggage around God, right? Or AA, or they just, they have this concept or this image that was formed through a television show or whatever about what it is. And I just say, you know, don't succumb to contempt prior to investigation, go check it out.

And I too have voiced opinions about ayahuasca in the past, but I've never done it. So in many ways, that's contempt prior to investigation. And I too know of people whose lives have been improved as a result of that experience, but also like you, it's not for me. Like I'm not going to take such a powerful mind altering substance into my body at this point in my evolution. Like I don't think it would be wise and I don't feel like I need it, but I also can't discount the truth that certain people have been impacted positively

as a result of that. And I know that like people like Gabor Mate take addicts through this experience and have had positive results. But I also know people who then, I wouldn't call it a dependence or an addiction, but continue to go back to those experiences time and time again.

It's like, I don't know anyone who's walking around enlightened because of ayahuasca. Like we kind of go back to our set point. Maybe that set point moves a little bit for certain people. But if I see a guy who's doing it every weekend or doing it every month- That's an addiction. That in and of itself is an addiction.

You and I know people that do that. Oh, I know them. You know what I mean? So that's where I start to think, well, if this is so effective, then why do you have to keep doing it? Right. You know what I mean?

Well, I mean- And they'll call it the work. And again, I don't have any experience with it. So I'm not saying this with judgment. This is pure observation. Whenever you guys change your mind and you want to do it let me know we're gonna all do it together yeah we'll go in together can you imagine that's a fucking you know you're gonna feel like what you felt like last night or maybe how you feel right now the uh the one of the things i just before i forget, in discussions of AA and my resistance to AA,

John pulled up a perfect example of this. And I do have resistance to AA, and I have problems with the structure of it. And at every point when I'm being critical of AA, I always feel like I have to move very carefully and very delicately. Because fortunately, I have people like you in my life who have benefited from so much wisdom from the rooms shit that I hear in my day-to-day life that resonates with me hardcore and come to find out later that it's, it's, you know, it's an old AA truism or it's from directly out of the big book or whatever. So, you know, I mean, I hope you don't think that I'm coming out, you know, fucking knives and guns and all that shit, you know, but because I know that I, you know, second or third hand, my life has been enriched by the wisdom

of people in the rooms, you know? So I hope you know that when I am critical about specific things, it is in the most sort of like loving, respectful way possible because I know that I've benefited from it. It's still so funny to me too, though, because like you said, all right, set aside the God part of it, right?

You're like, I have problems with the structure. Like for me, it's like, all right, a group of people who kind of share a certain kind of problem get together and they talk about it. They share their experience, their strength, their hope from a perspective of trying to be of service to each other, a support system. And then there are these tools like, hey, if you do these like things,

like kind of take inventory of like how you've lived your life and you, you know, you mend these bridges with the people that you've, like these are all, you know, ancient traditions that transcend a book and a room and a program and a group of people that, you know, if you detach from the labeling around it would just be like kind of smart, common sense things to do to kind of, you know, improve yourself and your life experience. Yeah, I have that group around the world in my life, man.

It's awesome. They're like everywhere I go. And a lot of them are like fans of yours, you know? I don't know how you go into these bars night after night that like that would wear on my soul i just remember how i feel right now people drinking all the time i just remember this dog shit feeling i mean for me too like one of the things i always said was growing up music how important it was in my life you know my father was breaking, raping my mother and beating her. It was always the music to address what you're doing, because you're getting something out

of it. That's what keeps you going for five months on the road. When I was in the foster homes, it was always music. When I was on the streets, it was music. When I was locked up, it was music. And then I got the gift from HR who took the mic and said, yo, get out there in 81 to play music. And I always would get in the worst places in my life when I walked away from the music. It's part of the whole process for me, too, of staying sober is having those shared experiences with people in a room.

It doesn't have to be in a room doing the 12-step program. A room to me is like we're playing for all these people and then you have these amazing conversations afterwards and it's not involved it's not revolving around you know we're fucking smoking weed and having fucking drinks and doing all this shit it was always like we're having these like fucking philosophical discussions and what's interesting is i won't mention the person's name but even the walking tours, some dude hit me up and was like, got out of prison.

And he's no fucking joke. He's a fucking big, fucking strong, tattooed fucking maniac, has kids, got out of prison and was like, I fucking had a gun and I was going to fucking end my life because I went back to addiction. I had a gun and I was going to fucking end my life because I went back to addiction. I started listening to the podcast, Rich Roll, and listening to the message and got your books and all this stuff. I was like, but at first he was like, I'm going to write John on fucking Instagram. Let me write this dude.

I just happened to be fucking looking at my phone and he's sitting there with a fucking gun and he was like if I don't hear if I don't get to talk to somebody now I'm gonna fucking end it and uh it was I was like holy shit and he came out on the walking tour so what'd you say to him so you just just, he said that in like a DM and you responded to him? I just kept telling him about the positivity, man. Don't isolate. Don't do this. Listen, you got to get past it.

The fucking check out my book. Do this, do that. Go on these podcasts. Listen to this shit. Like we all been there. Like he didn't say, the words never came to me that I had a gun and I'm sitting there. It was always like, he just kept it. He was asking me questions.

I found out later because he came on the walking tour. When he came on the tour, then he told you. That's when it wound up. He fucking waited till everybody else left. And he was like, dude, I just want you to know, like, that day I was going to end my life. And like the fact that you responded to me. And that's the power too of, you know, the social media

and the meeting of people in the rooms and, you know, and the gigs and the concerts. It's like I think there's so much good that can come out of that too. Like there's so, it's a platform, you know, to really do a lot of good shit. And I find like when I step away from the music and it's kind of like part of the whole thing for me is uh to be doing this and um using these platforms yeah it's your relationship

to the platform and how you use it it's like a metaphorical room because like you know yeah you're fucking you're getting people hitting you up too, like fucking, and it's like, doesn't necessarily have to be we walk into the basement of a fucking church, but it's there nonetheless. The room is where you create it, you know? Yeah, I get that. I mean, I threw out a tweet thread on New Year's when I was in Australia, basically saying like, you know, it's always a gift on New Year's Day to wake up sober. That's when you really like, you're like, yeah. And it was a bunch of stuff about like, cause a lot of people are gonna wake up on New Year's Day

feeling like shit and thinking like it's day one and I'm not off to a good start and maybe it's time to reevaluate. So every year I kind of throw something out like that. And I just ended the thread by saying, you know, my DMs are always open to anybody who's, you know, in that state right now and wants to talk. And I just ended the thread by saying, you know, my DMs are always open to anybody who's, you know, in that state right now and wants to talk. And I just got tons of messages and made sure that I responded to all of those. And like, that's, that's the service and that's what it's

about. And that you could, you know, there's a lot of problems with social media and, you know, on a macro level, what it's doing to culture and society, but if you can use it for that purpose, you know, and like today i leverage it for to be of service it's an incredible tool today i read your post about the australian fires because you were there watching it firsthand and it's just i mean it brings fucking tears when i'm seeing what's happening to these animals and and uh you posted some charity links which i'm going to be donating to and the money goes right to the organizations and it's just like we have to as a fucking humanity needs to start making a global shift away from what the fuck we're doing and the path we're taking and

this you know so many signs of it i just saw another documentary about venice that the sea level's rising the place is going under fucking water and they're losing these museums in history and they're freaking the fuck out and just everything that's going on and i made a post yesterday uh and it was like you know somebody's saying what if we create what if it's a hoax and we created a better world for nothing like oh yeah it's like fucking come on man like dude but speaking of social media i don't know if it's what a waste of time and like you know i i just saw your post and because you were over there. Yeah, I was over there for a month. Were you affected by the fires?

I mean, where were you? I was in Sydney for most of the time and Sydney is not under imminent threat from the city burning down. I think, you know, I could be wrong, but I believe that the closest bushfires are something like 50 kilometers away. So it's not as if you can see the fires from the city,

but when the wind's blowing a certain way, as it does on most days, the air quality was unbelievably poor. And there were definitely days where I'd go outside and think this is not a good idea. And you'd walk around and people have masks on, the sky is orange, walking around the opera house,

you couldn't see across the- I saw pictures of that. Yeah, you couldn't see across the harbor. The bridge was obscured because of the smoke. It was bad, really bad. So I didn't see the fires firsthand. And what's interesting is how you normalize what's happening. Cause I was there for, these fires have been going on for four months, right? And what's interesting is how you normalize what's happening.

Because I was there for, you know, this is, these fires have been going on for four months, right? Yeah. And I was there well after they had begun and it's gotten worse since I left. And I know I've been talking to friends there, the air quality is even worse than it was when I was there. But everyone's, you know, it's not like life stops. People are going to work and going about their day because what else are you going to do? And even being there, it's hard to grasp the scope and the size and the sheer devastation and the impact of what's happening there.

I mean, it would be as if you saw those maps of Australia superimposed over the United States with the fires. Yeah, it's crazy. And it's like, it would be as if, you know, fires are burning from Miami to Portland, Maine, you know, like, and then up around across to Chicago or something like that, you know, it's unbelievable. So, you know, what do we do? Like it's in that first post that I made about that. I mean, I think that the impulse is to feel powerless and that the world is out of control and there's a kind of desperation a kind of desperation or sort of a hopelessness that comes with

acknowledging that level of dystopia. But the truth is there are things that we can do. There are these relief organizations where we can be immediately of need to the people who need that. And then there are ways of dealing with and addressing the macro problems that are shifting the tectonic plates

that lead to these sorts of things. And they're less sexy. And I think we need change at the highest level. And it's important to let our governments know what's acceptable and what isn't. But there are changes that we can make right now in our homes and in our daily habits that don't seem like they're connected

to this problem, but ultimately are. And if we want to solve these problems, we do need to take responsibility for those choices and how we're living our lives on a daily basis. I mean, I just saw a huge disconnect, like all the amazon that's being cleared and burned to graze cattle and grow crops to feed the cattle and it's like the amazon are the lungs of the fucking planet and it's like nobody really said anything about that or and and then like these fires dwarf that in size yeah but not that they're burning the rainforests all over the planet they're doing that everywhere now like my friend said to me like how come nobody talked about what's going on in uh indonesia and all that what they're doing over there and i think it's

that's what about ism though yeah you know anytime you you sort of shine a light on something then says well what about this? You're talking about this, but nobody, it's like, that's not productive. Right. Or if you say, hey, there's a problem here, let's look at it. Then-

Deflecting. Or somebody attacks you because you flew on an airplane. It's like, yeah, I flew on an airplane. I don't live a zero carbon emissions life. And I've never said that I do. There are certain things that I do, I have habits around that hopefully are part of the solution, but I'm not perfect.

And like I say this all the time, like I have an iPhone. Where do these minerals in this phone come from? Like, I'm complicit in whatever that system is that creates that, that probably is creating a lot more harm than good. So it's not about Puritanism, but I think it's about raising collective consciousness and awareness. Oh, absolutely. Mishk? something we talk we always talk about the um the service thing you know the um because when you're confronted with all these huge problems it's like well what like what can i do how can i help you know the and and also like the you know the attacks you get from people like oh you have

an iphone you flew on a plane all that shit i think that's one of the reasons why i struggled with the idea of service initially is because i feel like if you're a sober alcoholic or, you know, drug addict and you come out of either you come out of rehab or you come out of a program or you come out of fucking white knuckling it in your room. And then people are like, oh, you now need to be a better human being than everybody else. being than everybody else. You know, I, to me, it just felt like, I don't know that, not that like, not that sober addicts and alcoholics should get a break necessarily, but they shouldn't have, you know, they shouldn't have like this service thing. It should apply to everybody or nobody. So what are you saying specifically? I mean, certainly, well, it's not about, it goes back to not being about Puritanism.

Like as they say, we are not saints. It's about spiritual progress, not spiritual perfection. And the truth is, if you've cobbled together a few days of sobriety, then you have a kernel of experience that would be beneficial to somebody who can't get one day. You know what I mean? And for the amount of time that you've remained sober to somebody who can't get one day. You know what I mean? And for the amount of time that you've remained sober to somebody who's in that position, you're like a God. How is that even possible that that guy could do that?

So detaching that from whatever other decisions you're making in your life that make you an angel or a devil, like let go of all of that and just focus on the fact that you've been able to string together some time without drinking or using drugs. And how can you communicate a message to that person who's in that vicious cycle who feels like they could never escape it so that they can hit the pillow that night, just one night without getting loaded? Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, part of this goes back to the, uh, Oh, you're replacing one addiction with another, that kind of shit too. You know, where I feel like, um, you know, sober alcoholics and addicts are like

subjected to all this bullshit from people who like feel like, um, it's their business to, to weigh in on our lives and the decisions that we're making and like, Oh, is that healthy for you to be running the amount that you are and that kind of shit and um somebody asked me point blank you know like what do you think your debt is to um to other people you know trying to get sober and i said nothing i i owe them nothing i'm if i help people it's gonna be because i want to and not because I have some fucking obligation. It's not like you need to do your homework or you need to clean your room. You know, I, I mean, and that's the thing about my sobriety is like, I got sober on my own. I

didn't lean on anybody else, you know? And so like, I'm happy to have written what I've written and I'm happy to help people where I can, but I hate this idea of I'm down with, I'm coming around. I came around on PMA. I came around on plant-based I'm coming around on service, but I, it's just the, I guess it's the mode of entry of, you know, that like newly sober addicts are compelled to do this, you know, rather than here's an opportunity for you to, you're looking at me. Are you done? No, go for it. First of all, I would call, I would, first of all, I would call into question that you got sober on your own. I know you want to believe that.

And I think that that's on some level, a delusion. I think that you got sober on your own. I know you want to believe that. And I think that that's on some level a delusion. I think that you got sober because you're surrounded by people that love you and they may not have been, you know, wrapping your knuckles and telling you what to do specifically, but don't discount the impact that, you know, your family members and your friends may have had

on your sober story. That's one thing. And I think that – I wanted to know how your addiction – you just spent time with your old man, right? Well, that's a whole other thing. Well, what I'm saying – I know it crossed your mind at some point what your – so what your addictions were doing to the other people that yeah you know that's right the connection that's that's what you know we keep talking about when music with

performing was it all comes back to connection right you know and and and that connection is fundamental to you getting sober and staying sober right the fact that you have connection to other human beings and there have absolutely been times when I've been in those fucking dank wet bars when I think of the two of you and that's, you know, what part of the barricade. Right. So, so, you know, my voice is in your head on some level or JJ's is in your head when you're in a situation that you know is somewhat precarious. Yeah. Right. Absolutely. So how much are you doing this alone? So there's that. The second thing is, we can move along. The second thing is, I find this to be- Because you proved your point? No, I get to rebut too. I rebut your rebuttal. I think there is a spiritual truism that if you want to keep something, you have to give it

away, right? Like if you want to be loved, you have to give love. If you want to stay sober, you have to be of service to other people who are struggling and sobriety. If you, whatever it is that you, and if you hold on too tightly to a certain thing, that's a sure path to losing it. So I think that is baked into this idea of what service is. It's not like, hey, go be a good boy scout

and you must, you are compelled to be of service, but there is a priority or, you know, a lot of energy behind kind of getting people energized around that because that's what keeps people sober. So I know that if I'm on the phone on the daily with somebody who's in and out and who is struggling, that that makes me work my program more strongly because you can't give away something you haven't got.

And I'm duplicitous if I'm telling that person to do one thing and I'm not practicing it myself. So it keeps me honest. So the giving it away, I get more out of that than that person. That person may never get sober, but it's like an insurance policy for myself that I know that whatever that guy or woman or

whoever whatever that person does like i'm pretty sure that my head will hit that pillow sober tonight yeah i listen i totally agree and and i mean that's what i said you know when i'm coming around to the idea of service because like you know when uh the rare instances where i've done something to help another person i always feel good i about it. And I know, I know, I know. Cause we've talked about this too. And it, it, it, I think it really puts life into you and I see you doing it on social media. And I think there's a sustenance to that, that maybe because you're so recalcitrant, you're refusing to just embrace, you know? There's a certain level of cynicism with you. Get out of here

i'm like i get you because i know you but somebody else looking it would be like yeah the but do you see the point that i'm making though i do that i feel like we put a lot of pressure on people who are newly sober to be too good to give back too much too fast. And I don't think that's necessarily true though. I think that's a projection on some level also. And what I see, and I'll let you finish in a second, but my question to you is you hold on so tightly to this ideology or this perspective. And my question to you is what would happen if you just let go of all that oh shit here comes the next challenge right yeah the uh the war of art man resistance baby the uh now i just feel like you and jj found a way to poison me in mexico so i would come in

here in a weakened state yeah you're like an injured animal right we actually had somebody feed you in mexico i'm fucking hanging on to this table so i don't fall over go ahead the um but you see my point though about the um oh you're replacing one addiction with another that kind of shit like that's not helpful and and i i think you know the three of us and lots of other people have survived bad advice or bad input or useless information from people like that early on. And it's stuff that doesn't propel you forward. And if anything, it's stuff that pushes you back and it makes you think like, oh, well, fuck this. I should just go have a drink and not put up with this horse shit. I get you. But I think a counterpoint to that is that we're not always the most objective when it comes to

our decision-making, right? And I think any rational person would say, like, if you have a big decision to make or you're acting in a certain way, like run that by people that you trust and respect and get their feedback on that. That's why my mom lives four houses down, dude. Yeah. I'll be like, you know, thinking that I'm on this great path and it will take another person who knows me well that I'm very connected with to say, Hey man, like I see you doing this thing over here. Like, do you ever think like maybe, you know, and I'll be like, wow, I never would have thought that. Or, you know, maybe I disagree, but you've been right about so many other things. Like I need to rethink that, you know? So I think it's just being a sounding board

and, you know, I need somebody to reflect back my own behavior because I'm not so good at taking on a stock of it because my ego gets involved and all my character defects cloud my perspective so that I don't see it clearly. I mean, I agree with a lot of what you're saying. You know what I mean? I think, and I think that, you know, and we've talked about this before that, like, um, it probably would have benefited me early on and now to lean on people more than I do. You know, that like, you know, last night when I was like lying there thinking I was going to die, I was like, well, there's a good, it's a good thing. There's nobody around. Cause then I would cry to them. And instead of just laying there fucking by myself, you know,

the, I couldn't even get the dog to come over and like cuddle me the, um, and I, you know, and I don't have any fantasy that like I exist in a vacuum and, um, I've tried to, and that's stupid and that's why i understand how stupid it is and you know and we've talked so much on you know on this podcast about connection and and the power of behind that of i mean that's the only way that i know to make sense of all this shit that we deal with on this earth is the connection between people you know loving one another communicating with people you know I, I absolutely believe in all of that. I'm just, you know, I, I just, the, I just think that we put too much on newly sober people when, um, the, I think, I think people need to choose service. That's one of, that's

one of my favorite things about you, dude, is that when fucking JJ was busting my balls about the garbage that I used to eat, you were always like, no, it's fine. He can just eat whatever, you know? Did I say that? I don't know. Well, no, you said it.

I don't think I said that. No, I mean, you were like, you know, just try it for a month or try eating more plants or whatever, you know? And now it's been whatever, two and a half years since I've eaten meat and I'm not going back. And, um, but also like, you know, JJ was like, I was chewing gum one time and you were like, here,

you're like spit that shit out. And I was like, what the fuck? And I did, you know, cause when JJ tells you to do something, you do it. But having the two of you having the good angel and the devil, one on each shoulder, that multiplicity, that that was incredibly helpful to me. And that's helped me move forward. And that's the same reason why I advocate for more ways of getting sober, you know, is when you have more options like that. You know, it's like if, you know, to go back to the old tired analogy, you know, it's like, if, you know, to go

back to the old tired analogy, you know, you could lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. You know, it's like when my cat doesn't want to eat, you know, I could like shove her head in the bowl and she won't eat. But if I like rattle a little bit of food in my hand and then sort of sneak it away from her, she's like, yo, what's in your hand? You know, then she'll, she wants to say, oh, well, what is that? And then when she feels like she's getting something from me, she'll eat, you know, I can take it right out of the bowl and put it in my hand. It's just presentation. I got you. I think we could go in circles on this for a long time. And I don't know how productive that is, but I have to say maybe one final thing, and then we can talk about some other stuff. And that is that

you cannot solve a problem with the same mentality that created it. And if you're fucked up on drugs and alcohol and you're making decisions in a certain way, if you think that you're going to solve that problem with that same brain that is making those decisions, then you're lost. Like it's not going to work, right? Like you've got to get a different perspective. And I don't think I would take issue with this, this supposition that, that, that 12 step puts too much pressure on newly sober people to be of service. I don't think that's necessarily true. I wasn't even digging a swipe at 12 step with that, which is like, now I think it's just the, the community at large, you know, that like people who aren't part. I mean, when you're,

when you're newly sober, it's all about like helping that person get sober and like everything else gets tabled until later until they've you know not in my experience dude i've had people who i didn't even know like there's a lot of people that are in the programs that ain't the best right i got you like michael let's take for instance michael alago right who signed metallica he has has the film, Who the Fuck is That Guy? Here's a person who's worked Cindy Lauper, Nina Simone. You want to talk about who's who in the music business. And he never talks about it, but every single morning, no matter what he's doing, he goes in and he sets up the fucking chairs.

He sets up the room, he gets to coffee. And the way I've seen him and the compassion and understanding and love and patience that he gives to newly sober people, it's incredible. And that is, I think, what has the most effect and the time that he gives of himself to call these people and follow up. Never like being heavy handed. I don't think if somebody was heavy handed with me when I was coming off crack, I would have fucking knocked them the fuck out, to tell you the truth. It was people with a lot of compassion that were like, hey, man, like, you know, this is what you need.

How are you doing? How are you feeling? What's going on? Some compassion there. Like, I really felt like they were truly, honestly concerned for my well-being. And I think there's a lot of people that are in the 12-step program and NAA that do that same thing and have helped a ton of people, you know, and Michael Lago is a great example

of it. And he doesn't brag about what he does. He doesn't put anybody's dirt out there. It's just, he's doing it. It's selfless service. He's not getting anything out of it because he doesn't even talk about it. But what you were saying, it helps his own sobriety. 100%.

100%. And I find it for myself too. When I'm talking to people, I'm constantly reminding myself of those same uh facts of those experiences of uh of what it was like i can empathize with this person's suffering and be like holy shit i was fucking there man i know what that person's feeling like and also it helps you revisit that and connect with that so that you don't go back absolutely yeah the uh tell your fucking mom i love you bro yeah the the best shows that i've had in this last year are we started doing shows at my house in phoenix and just and i because like i know how fucking hard it is to get a gig and a gig that pays

um when you're on the road so we've just been doing house shows for people when they come through and like i usually don't even play i usually just i host i we have a door that we took off like one of the it's your version of bisbee like doug's yeah yeah the uh the stage is just a door that we took off i've seen the fucking picture it's just it's just a door with a mic stand you laugh next time you're in town you're're going to do one of those for us. I'm there, dude. I'm fucking there. You too, man. But those are the best fucking shows, man.

And those are like the best nights of my life. You know, like the happiest, man. Because that's where you feel most connected. My friend Kristen Becker came through. She's telling jokes about fucking prolapses. My mom is sitting like right in front of her, like laughing her ass off. And I was like, this is how we make sense of like the fucking carnage of humanity is to just talk about everything together you know and to like to have all these people in my my uh my my bff robin

and her girlfriend uh but man then sam and his buddy on their harleys there's we got the bikers and the lesbians and i was like uh-oh-oh. And I walked over there and they're like, they're both just talking shit about me. And I was like, all right, cool. We're good. We're good. Yeah. But so I get it, man.

You know, it's like those, and I live for those shows, man. They've been fucking awesome. We're trying to do them every month now. It's cool. Good deal, man. so tell me about the new book that's coming out the um january this van could be your life oh god wow there's your other like john reach there's there's mishka's book see at the bottom of that right there the bottom where i'll make it up to you the bottom of the stack huh i swear i'll make it up to you there we go genius i gotta get a screen cap

you're a wordsmith bro i swear to god you fucking see this is always my thing with you i'm so glad you've got these two pieces coming out because I really think, I love your writing, man. I really do. It's what I do best. I got to get back to it. I've been fucking, you know, I love the road and it totally energizes me.

And like, it's time for the pendulum to swing the other way. You got to live in order to have stories to tell, but it's been too long. Those experiences like just is material for the next yeah yeah thing you know the um so in in 2018 when i did the five months on the road i broke up with my girlfriend maddie in atlanta because how can you keep a relationship together when one of the person you know one of the people was fucking never there and uh and i broke her heart and i broke my heart, you know.

And then I couldn't even like feel bad about it because I knew that it was my fucking fault too. We talked about that when I saw you in London. Yeah. I was so grateful to see you then, dude. I can't tell you. Like I was just so beat up at that moment. Did you ever feel like you were going to drink again? Fuck yeah, dude.

Yeah. Yeah. So. I blame you and Rich for my failure to relapse. But you did it alone. I did it alone with you. With you. I did it alone with you.

There we go. No, so this piece is about in 2018, like whatever, three months deep into this. is about uh in 2018 like whatever three months deep into this i took that uh that fucked up uh 1976 chevy camper van loaded my sister and my mom and my uh my sister's kids into the van we drove 2 000 miles up to uh saskatchewan for my mom for the family reunion my mom comes from a family of 17 kids and uh and she had just lost her brother the year before the first of the 17 to die my younger sister tashina's uh birth father um so it was just it was like really emotional and then like going into it man i was like already insane by the time we got into the van and it's like okay now you have to deal with four little kids driving through the fucking nevada desert

at 115 degrees with no air conditioning and like did chung go no unfortunately he uh he didn't go the explain who chung is uh chung is read i swear i'll make it up to you it's all like that guy's the lead character i can't tell you how many messages i've gotten from people who are like bro i'm halfway through the book i gotta know does chung ever reappear i'm like finish the fucking book dude the uh no chung's doing good he's uh he's in albuquerque his son is actually going to to uh to school in arizona so i'm gonna try and reconnect with his son soon but uh chung is my vietnamese foster brother he was a refugee from vietnam came over spent two years in a refugee camp in malaysia talk about fucking hardcore yeah man that he has seen the um and uh now he lives in albuquerque he has a landscaping business any of you guys need your

yard stunted albuquerque hit me up i'll hook you up with chung yeah but um but yeah he was and then he ran away when i was a teenager he was gone for 20 years and then just fucking reappeared one day. And now he's in your life now though, right? Yeah, yeah. We, you know, we talk regularly and, you know, text back and forth and stuff. Yeah. So, all right. So this family reunion, like why, what made you want to write about this?

Like, what is this about? Well, I just, you know, my, like my family, they're all like redneck oil people, Trump lovers, you know, the, you know, the only, only book I ever read was the Bible and that's good enough for me, you know, which I guess that explains a lot. Wow. I didn't just, just figure that one out on air. The, the, but I love them all. I love them dearly, you know, and, and I will fucking take a bullet for any of them. i love them dearly you know and uh and i would fucking take a bullet for

any of them that's my family you know and um so i was trying to sort of like figure out like why you know why is it so important to me and also like i just felt like my family was sort of falling apart my sister had gone through this fucking rough divorce and uh you know they were all on the west coast and i was in atlanta and like been in new york most of my life and um you know they were all on the west coast and i was in atlanta and like been in new york most of my life and um i was just feeling really disconnected from everybody and then i was like okay this is it this van is gonna this is like a time machine we're all just gonna get into the scooby-doo magic mystery machine and we're gonna travel together and that journey is gonna turn us back into what we were before, you know, family.

You created an expectation. There were a couple of bumps along the way, Rich. But we survived, you know. We survived. And I learned a lot during that trip. One of the things I learned is learning hurts. that trip. One of the things I learned is learning hurts and, and that, uh, you know, the people in my family have an incredible amount of patience for me and the bullshit that I submit them to. But, you know, but since that it's been great, you know, I mean, my, like my older sister,

Tatiana and I, we had some shit that was sort of brewing up between the two of us. And, uh, we ended up squashing that on that trip to Sheena and I had sort of not, there was not like, uh, no, like bad blood really, but we just sort of fallen out of touch. And then doing this trip together, I was like, Oh man, like you, you really chilled out in the last 10 years. You know, the, you're not the kid that I remember. And, um, the, you know, and then it ended up perfectly like to Sheena and my mom and I like all live in Phoenix now with enough distance between us that we're not, you know, walking on each other. And, um, and, uh, one of the things I learned too, from doing that trip and writing that piece was that I had to cut my dad out of my life.

And that's been really hard and, uh, and incredibly liberating too. You know, there's like you, you know, you can pump a certain amount of energy into something and at a certain point you just have to say enough's enough. Credit. You know? Yeah. It's some, was it an accumulation of things or did one thing happen that made you? Well, I mean, there was a lot of shit, you know, like the, you know, politics now is

like such, you know, there's how many divorces have been caused by trump's election you know like the um the for a lot of friends of mine they were just sort of like fuck who is this guy that i married you know the um and so that you know there's been that pressure with my dad but i've been sort of you know i just skirted i was like dad you're my dad i'm not going to talk about this with you because we're just going to fight so let's talk about fucking classic rock or whatever you know the um and then uh the he um he was invited to my sister's wedding and uh and he said he wasn't going to come because it was uh like dishonest and deceitful or you know something like that i was like yo no offense dad but like you were fucking your secretary you banded your wife and your children like you

fucking get those words out of your fucking mouth you know like we took you back like how dare you step to my sister and fucking she you know she's got four kids she's working her ass off you know she she was a good kid. She wasn't the drunk. She wasn't the fuck up. Like, how fucking dare you? So that was the line for me. He didn't do anything to me.

It was my sister. But I was like, if I have to pick one, I'll pick her any day, man. Sorry to hear that. You know what? It's good. It's been good. It's really, it's like a weight has lifted.

And how does everyone in your family feel about the fact that you've written about them? They read it? By this point, they tolerate me. You know, my sister's kids were like, how much are we going to get paid? I was like, fucking nothing. How did this come about?

You were kind of the golden child of the Kindle Singles, you know, initiative, but that went the way of the Dodo, right? Like they discontinued that program. I don't know why. It was cool. What happened over there? David Blum, the guy who created it. He left, right?

He moved on to something else. And then they just sort of ran it into the ground where there was like just so much stuff. So then this is sort of a new sort of relaunching of it. It's Amazon originals. Yeah. It's basically the same idea. Yeah. Yeah. Basically. And that'll be out, uh, January 21st. And then I have an audio book coming out in March. We got to do a fucking audio book together or something. Some kind of, isn't that what we're doing right now? I guess a live audio book, a radio play. Um, but that's, that's the cold Turkey one, how to quit drinking

by not drinking yeah this is your this is your self-help manifesto yeah i feel so conflicted about it dude i feel so conflicted you know i felt me doing doing an edit on this after the podcast i'm gonna be doing edits on you motherfucker you want me to have a look at this before yeah you know we should do i haven't read it yet, and apologies for that. Oh, God, don't read it. I was like, oh, no, the way that Rich is acting, he's already read it. For the audio book, you could just take breaks every 10 minutes or whatever,

and then cut to me, and I'll give you my reaction to what you say. Yeah, yeah, the director's cut. But that's cool that's like a new you know you know you you're a master storyteller but the kind of self-help genre you know this is a new new like kind of thing for you i mean i know you've written articles for the fix and things like that on on your sober journey but you know what extrapolation of that i'll be totally honest i really didn't want to do it i actively did not want to do it they just hit me when i was fucking desperate and i needed money okay and then i was like okay fuck i'll do it and then when i got into it i was like oh shit i actually really really care about this a lot and this in some ways this is like my fucking life's

work right here um so it's similar to the long run i didn't want to write the long run but david blum sat me down he was like nah this is what you're writing dude yeah um so i just you know the yeah it ended up being you know tremendously meaningful to me and i hope that it helps people but that's going to be audiobook only yeah yeah as a kindle the uh i'm going to talk to bird and see if we can sell it as a physical book too. But right now it's just audio book. Right. And JJ, you're writing, you got a cookbook you're working on. Yeah, I was going to ask what you've been up to. Just finished.

You got your YouTube show. Yeah, my YouTube channel, The Hard Truth. Yeah. Did you see his latest video? It's like real men eat quiche. Oh, God. Real men do fucking eat quiche. You're right.

There you go. But, yeah, you know, I just do that for fun. I pay for everything and, you know, just have a good time with it. Try to have interesting people from time to time. Try to get Roderick Sewell, you know know the first double amputee to finish kona was supposed to come on that's cool and um you know he couldn't make it so trying to do that uh coming up and then uh i uh finished the cookbook it's being edited so it's like over a hundred plant-based recipes and uh a lot of the newer information it's uh you know out there to help uh people you know to uh

lead a healthier more you know productive so the pma cookbook no it's not it doesn't have anything to do with really mindset too much i mean i have what's the title though i'm waiting for yourself i can't tell you because you know what when i did meetings of pussies somebody i posted on it and somebody fucking took meetings of pussies.com and all this shit and then they wrote me and they're like yo i'll sell you the fucking thing i'm like yeah meet me on avenue d at two in the morning i'll have to cash in my pocket show up you know like so i just i don't fucking uh you know discussing we got the 30 to life thing right how's that is that coming along it's good yeah it's being edited i just talked to kip and and

paul de gelder kip anderson who did what the What the Health. And it was supposed to see an edit, I think, in early June or something, the first edit of it. Right. I think we talked about this last time. But basically, you and Paul DeGelder did this, like, limited series that's being produced by Kip from Cowspiracy and What the Health, where you go to these guys who have- Amity Foundation.

Right, who have just gotten out of prison long-term. Long sentences. Multiple offenders, like hardcore guys, right? And you go in and you like get their diets sorted out. And Keith Mitchell, the former All-Pro linebacker, there was a lot of people involved. We had Krishna Das came and chanted with them. It was like all different people and bringing different gifts to the table to help these guys.

Because the recidivism rate in California is fucking like over 80%, I believe. If you do over 10 years, the odds of you going back to prison and then just seeing uh the documentary the 13th about the 13th amendment the what they did to to you know basically legalizing slavery in the prison system and just seeing people come out of prison and die and myself being incarcerated for two years and how i changed i just took took it to Paul and I was like, yo, I got this thing. And then me and him baked it and took it to Kip. And then Kip did, you know, it was organic too at that point. You know, we figured that we were going to work with Homeboy Industries.

That didn't happen. The producer that he had knew this place, Amity Foundation. And these motherfuckers went through fucking gladiator school. There was guys that did fucking 40 years saying quitting riots. Chino, you fucking talk about people that been through shit. And what got me the first day was one of the most hardcore motherfuckers that you ever seen in your life, this guy Hollywood. I named him Hollywood because I was like,

this guy's a fucking star. And he fucking, we sat in a semicircle, and everybody, we all went around us. You know, we talked Paul. Like, they had seen Paul on Shark Week, and if you don't know who he is, his No Time for Fear book, whatever. It's fucking amazing.

It's been on the podcast. Yeah. He's fucking just such a top act. And after we all relayed our stories and Keith went and the other people, and then the guys went around the room, this guy, he just broke down crying and had to get up and walk the fuck out of the room. This is a fucking 220 pound dude who's been fighting for his life and he was like, sorry. He came back and he was like, I just never had people care about me. He really felt we weren't trying to exploit you to get something onto Netflix or whatever

the fuck medium it ends up coming out, a film, whatever. It was like he really felt like we were there to help. And because I had read this thing in Satya magazine and I talked about it, which Satya means the mode of goodness. And I read this like 25 years ago about this guy that went into the prison system and taught people to be plant-based and Buddhist and all this. And this prisoner said, if I had this knowledge that I'm getting now, and he became plant-based and a Buddhist in prison, and he was locked up for double homicide, he's never getting

out. And I was like. He's never getting out. And I was like, that's so fucking powerful. It never left me the power of the changes that I've seen in my life through doing all of this and being of service to others. And like Kip's people, the minute they heard it it like we gave it to kip on a wednesday friday he had the funding and then we just went in there it's 30 to life it's called and it was 30 days and to change uh it's a double entendre too because like i think right 30 to life is the last sentence you could get before double life which means basically you're probably going

to fucking die in prison. So it's like, and meeting these guys, and I'm still friends with them. As a matter of fact, the Cro-Mags played the fucking, the Roxy, and they all fucking came and they were up in the fucking balcony wearing Cro-Mag shirts, all these dudes. And I just turned, and I got fucking choked up, man. I was like, looked at these dudes and the place was packed. And I go, these motherfuckers right here. This is, these are my fucking family over here. And they didn't know what the fuck I did with the Cro-Mags.

They were like, holy fucking shit. And we did everything that those guys wanted to do. If they wanted to play guitar or get a job here or a chef or whatever. There was just amazing people involved. And it's something. I met a few of them that final day when you did like the 10K down at the beach. And you came and did the run. So I got to meet a couple of them.

And what was amazing, right, the whole community embraced those guys, the running community. They were just like, some of these guys never ran a fucking quarter mile, much less what they did. And the whole community down there, the running community, were fucking waiting for every one of these guys to cross the finish. And funny enough, you were like, we never ran together, you were saying. I know. We still haven't.

This is the first time I've run. I've never run together either. How is that possible? But it's like – It's not happening today with Mishka though yeah you know this year and then paul had him jumping out of planes and fucking keith was teaching him yoga we took him to an animal sanctuary like they were learning about service feeding the homeless and one guy fucking dude he was sold into slavery as a fucking child by his uncle or whatever. This guy, John, in the South.

And fucking his whole life's been in prison. And he never met his grandchildren. And the producers reached out to his family. They cut him off. And I wasn't in town because I had to keep going back from the West Coast to New York for other stuff I had going on. But the producers and Cib told me, dude, those kids showed up at that airport with signs and balloons, the world's best grandpa.

And there's not going to be a fucking dry eye because I wasn't even there and just the thought of that, that they gave him a chance to reconnect with his family and meet his grandchildren and all this stuff. And he's the sweetest person. And I always say that too. You don't know how somebody ended. There's a history to how these men and women ended up in prison. It's not cut and dry. And even addiction, there's a reason why people will slip into that. So you always have to have compassion and understanding. And that's where, to me, I'm like this pay it forward thing really does matter because people reached out to me when I was a mess in 1980 in the Navy. I just came out of lockup two years.

I was fucking hustling, selling drugs, beating people up. I was an addict. And people reached out and helped me. And when I asked them, how the fuck do I pay you back? They're like, you can't just pay it forward, you know? And it's like, that's what I try to do with, you know, social media and, you know, whatever the fuck. Are all your issues with the Navy sorted out at this point? Oh, yeah.

I got snitched on by my bass player, Harley, at 95, and tried to get me out of the way. But, yeah. The paperwork's taken care of? The paperwork's good. You got a bank account? I do, man. Believe it or not. I still don't have a license.

My girl's like, I'm not fucking going anywhere with you. But here's the thing. You come to LA and you stay with Tal downtown, right? Well, now he has a girl. So I don't get to stay with him. I rent Airbnbs. Oh, you do. But you're downtown. And then you're like, hey, let's go to dinner., so I don't get to stay with him. I rent Airbnbs. Oh, you do, but you're downtown.

Yeah. And then you're like, hey, let's go to dinner. We're like, for people that don't know, it's like a two-hour drive from where we are. Yeah. And I know, weren't you supposed to, who was I with? Oh, Rob Moore was here the other day. Yeah, I was supposed to go down to Santa Monica.

Yeah, and you wanted him to go like to Crossroads. And he's like, we're in Venice, dude. Good luck, man. Like, get a driver's license and rent a freaking car when you come to town here or just uber wheels like i uber i uber here i fucking ubered here but uh only because what's his name the who was supposed to drive jay soto the chef who's amazing from the series from this yeah and you know what actually he's great he just posted up and and and

i gotta give this motherfucker props because he's still working at amity and he's been getting these guys jobs as chefs in some of the top restaurants in la and he just posted a picture with all these fucking guys and it's like you know yeah but he had some meetings and he had we went late and he slept in whatever the fuck but he's he's my boy man i met so many magical people uh through the through that through that whole thing but yeah coming out here it's you know hey you know before uber everyone avoided me like they'd be like yeah come out i'm like yo man what's up they're like you gotta drive downtown and pick you up they don't answer back and then and then i heard to the grapevine yeah they're like that motherfucker don't got a car and he has to get

driven around that's he had to get into the fucking iron man you know that's a classic it's like i'll take my bike it's a classic like rich man poor man thing like that's what super rich guys do and guys who don't have two nickels do. Anyway, what's the next Ironman? Oh, I got two this year. I'm doing St. George. I just had hernia surgery last year, which fucked me up, but I still got Cozumel done.

I hurt my hernia. I injured the surgery on tour with the Cro-Mags. I waited a month. Theax i waited a month the doctor's like you had to cancel a bunch of dates right cancel fucking tours big ones but you know the thing was my doctor she was like oh yeah you can go back to training and you know after two weeks and then she's like yeah you could go and play and then i came back off the road we had because we had to stop in new york and I went to see her and she's like I was like yeah I fucked up I think I'm I fucked something up

like and she's like what kind of music do you do and I showed her the video she's like I would have fucking never let you fucking get on stage

and do that are you fucking kidding me she's like she's like cancel the rest of this tour I said I can't do that she goes no singing she cleared me for iron

man i would not you can sing she cleared me 40 miles 10 days after hernia surgery and fucking jj does a couple of shows and fucking right yo she was uh she cleared me to do the iron man in cozumel right before thanksgiving but she said no more singing right you can do the iron man but no more chromatic shows yeah so like i've been healing up from that doing a lot of like i said salt baths and yoga and cbd oil which i discovered which really fucking this company's engine helps me out they you know it just really kills the fucking pain and uh you know and like that but i got saint george coming up uh may 4th in utah and then i got uh lake placid which i've been wanting to do for for years and going to be touring with uh blood clot this year again and uh i started doing a lot of speaking engagements now um thank you by the

way you hooked me up with somebody that was trying to get in touch with me i'm doing like this thing in richmond when i get home cool through your blessings man mishka how's the running going you got back into it good until the last couple of days man the um yeah i'm gonna do an uh i'm to get back to it this year. I'm going to do another marathon. Yeah. The, this is going to blow your guys' minds, but I feel like since I stopped eating meat and consuming dairy, I feel like I recover. What the fuck are you doing? No, hear me out, bro.

No, I just been, I. The light bulb just came on. takes a while i get there actually four thousand times the uh no man i mean like i feel like there's no word that's like more overused or annoying as you know inspiring or inspiration or whatever but one of my boys uh travis reyes is a comic in uh san antone or he's in austin texas now um he was like oh this is gonna be the i you know my yearly rereading of i swear i'll make it up to you and i pretend that i'm gonna get back into running and then it's gonna fail and i was like well let's do 50 miles together this month and he was like all right fuck it let's do it so we did it and then we did 100 miles the next month and then i was like well fuck now we start training for a marathon you know beautiful right

so um recovery's good you look slim dude you're fucking four days of throwing up that'll do it for you man the uh no the um i've been here's another mind blower i've been wearing myself down to a nub like out there on the road man like just eating garbage and not exercising and not sleeping and shit like that and that's been a big thing for me is like i'm really um i mean i'm not gonna say i'm gonna quit but i'm gonna try and like dial it way back um and you know i love my house i love my cat i love my girlfriend i love my mom i love my family you know i love doing these house shows and like really trying to you know the um trying to build a community in phoenix that i can you know really

feel like i belong there um and getting getting back to writing you know i um i edited mark lanigan's uh memoir which that is the fucking darkest thing I've ever read in my life. It's fucking brilliant. Tell me who he is. Most people know him as the singer of Screaming Trees. He's also put out like 15 incredible solo records. You know, his book of lyrics was praised by nick cave and moby and fucking everybody um and he's an incredible i mean he was a heroin addict like living under a bridge smoking crack smoking

meth you know like fucking done everything and uh i uh tricked him and talked him into writing a memoir and then uh bird hooked him up and you know we got him a deal cool and then we did this fucking book together and it was i mean i was like you know he's like one of my last remaining musical heroes wow is the book out uh it'll be out uh in april i think it's april 24th come bring him in here man and we'll talk about it that if man if you could get him on the podcast i made him laugh well you're my. Well, you're my hookup. I'll do everything I can to make it happen. I made him laugh. Is it through Bird, though?

Yeah, yeah. We'll do it. I made him laugh once in my life. It was telling him the story about drinking my own piss when I was shipwrecked. And I'll tell you what, making that stony gargoyle laugh once was the most gratifying thing I've ever done, dude. It was like, he's just a legendary hard ass. I remember that fucking thing. So did you co-write or you edit?

You just talked about it? No, I edited it. It's Mark's work. You know, I was just sort of nagging him and nudging him and, you know, prodding him forward and, you know, doing everything I could to sort of coach him through it or whatever. But it was, I mean, it's really been the creative experience of my lifetime to work with one of my heroes like that and also to be put in the position of working with one of your heroes to be like yo this isn't good enough you got to redo that part you know that's right fucking nerve-wracking um i'm also working on a

screenplay um i met a guy and you don't even live in LA. I know I met a guy through Mark. We were like hanging out at Mark's house and I was like, I was shitting on LA and I was like, yeah, I have a screenplay idea, but I'm not going to like go around fucking talking to people at parties about it. And he was like, well, what's the idea? You know, what's the idea? And I told him and he was like, that's a great idea. Um. Ridley Scott is doing my next screenplay. Let's make this happen. And I was like, what? I fucking talked to one person.

And he's great. In Phoenix? No, no, it was out here. It was out here. At Mark's. Okay. Yeah. Who is this person?

His name is Roberto. I'm going to say his last name wrong. Beneventa. He just sold Gucci, the screenplay of the Gucci family that fucking Lady Gaga is going to play the lead on. Holy shit. Yeah. So he's a great dude, super talented writer. Very gives me good direct communication on what's working.

So you probably shouldn't tell us what that's about, right? I mean, the gist of it is you know if you look at you know classic horror movies the monster is like technology or like interracial marriage or marijuana you know it's always some social anxiety so in this instance the monster is addiction the i'll send you guys the you know the idea cool wow that's exciting yeah yeah i'm psyched you know so that's that's the thing this year is all about like fucking hunkering down um you know getting back to running maybe i'll come out to saint george drive out and uh and hang out with you running well not that you're gonna be hanging out that much running and writing dude running

writing and getting my health you know fucking back to where it needs to be yeah um and building community connection rich you should try it go don't try to do this alone come on man right dude yeah i love you i love you too man he's the best i miss you bro you're like it's i know i'm gonna be back be back in March for a couple weeks. Okay. Let's hang out. I'm in town. Get some food. Definitely, bro.

Yeah. A lot of great places in New York now. Vlad, Organic Grill, and you know. 100%. Yeah, man. 100%. That's my routine. Rich feels guilty if we don't go to Vlad.

Yeah. Well, here's my thing. A Russian, like, former martial artist you know open his i'm a creature of habit organic spot and my routine is when i go to new york i always take the first flight out it's usually like the 7 a.m or 6 a.m out of la so it gets me to new york it land i land at jfk at like 3 30 or whatever uber into the city, get checked into my hotel, and then walk to meet JJ for dinner. Like, that's the tradition. Yeah, like, I'm here.

And usually we go to Organic Grill because of our boy Vlad and the great food. But the last time we went somewhere else, and I did, I was like, I felt so guilty. I was like, what? I know, and it was right around the corner from Vlad's. Vlad's was packed, and, you know, sometimes I can't get a table in there.

I'm like, I fucking created a monster. I promoted the fuck out of this place. Now I can't even fucking get in there. But he's like, hey,

I haven't seen, I just love the way he says, you know, my friend John, he wrote the book Meat is for Pussies. Like, he's a great guy.

I know. He's the best. Fucking so cool. I convinced him to get the restaurant to go plant-based get rid of the fish the dairy and he was nervous at first i said dude your place is gonna blow the fuck up but yeah we felt guilty we were like every bite we were like fuck man you know we ate around the corner but uh we We got to get you guys to come to Phoenix too. You got to come and do an event. That race is on my fucking radar because I'm racing with Wadi Inc.,

the hit squad, and Heather Jackson won that race before. And I think she trains the Ironman. She trains down there too. Right. With, you know, she cycles down there. There's room at the end whenever you guys are in town at the end yeah you really are trying to create your own bisbee aren't you i i'm trying to i'm trying to fucking build my tribe right do you have any like pickup trucks

on cinder blocks in the yard and stuff like that yeah i do yeah of course you know i figured out it's like this my whole life like i lived in new york like 17 years and i'll never forget going to your apartment in brooklyn the first time i met you imagine that but in a fucking yard in a house and it's like i can't believe this guy lives here man i forgot that i'm a country boy i was i was in green point oh right like overlooking the bq green point i got some history in there. I bet, yeah. I bet. It wasn't the neighborhood. It was the apartment proper. Yeah. Like the way it was set up.

Dude, that was the cleanest it's ever been. And your roommate and like, it was just a weird situation. We chilled on the floor and an alliance was formed. All right, we got to land this plane. But let's close it down with, if you had to like pick a predominant theme of this conversation is sobriety, right? So for the person who's listening to this, who is in that cycle, who feels stuck,

or doesn't feel like maybe they need to get sober, or, you know, just hasn't really found the lifeline and something that you guys said today, you know, connected with that person or spoke to them, like, let's leave them with a little bit of direction and hope all right you want me to say something i get a lot of messages and just because you know i'm out doing the music and the races and then you know the walking tours and, and people hit me up. They're like, yo, I mean, close to death sometimes with this stuff. And I just say, look, you got to get that. Everybody says one day I'm going to do this. And I go, you got to flip the script on that shit.

And you have to say day one. And today is my day one. And I'm not going to, and just take it day by day. Like they say, even in the rooms, not gonna and just take it day by day like they say even in the rooms it's like you know take it day by day one day at a time but but you know it's also those connections uh uh they say people places and things like i know a lot of that philosophy and i think that that's the truth and uh staying around positive people that are doing positive things. And also, when I was getting off crack, I didn't go hang out with people that fucking had crack habits.

Those people almost got me murdered because I wasn't, I had issues from a childhood, whatever. So I succumbed to that. So get your day one, say today I'm going to wake up, I'm going to replace all that other shit with positive stuff. Somebody told me that the other day, I said, every time you want to fucking get high, drop and do fucking 50 pushups. Go fucking run. Go fucking eat good. Go read a book. Go watch, go do something else that's going to allocate that same time you were going to give into your addiction to doing something that's going to be beneficial to you and your life.

And that's really, you know, my message. And to reach out to people, don't, you know, it just cost my guitar player his life because the embarrassment and trying to hide what was going on. life because the embarrassment and trying to hide what was going on. You know, I think in terms of the four agreements, we make assumptions and that's a problem. We assume people are going to judge us. We assume we're going to be looked down upon. But no, you'd be quite surprised how many people are out there that love you and have compassion and, you know, they were waiting for you to step forward and admit, hey, man, I got a fucking problem. And that's number one.

To solving a problem, you have to admit you have one. Mishka? a note from you know from one of the things jj was talking about today and just say uh you don't have to have the gun locked and loaded in order to make the decision to change your life uh it doesn't have to be lowest ebb it doesn't have to be blackest night you know at any point in your life you're having a problem with you know drinking too much, using drugs, smoking, eating, just acting wrong. You know, that, um, there's always a way forward. And, uh, the, I love this concept of higher power. I think it's fucking awesome. The, uh, we can, the next time I come back, we can just talk about higher power right and and and the and for me it's uh it's been the connection the the connection between human beings and that's the you know that's the only way that i know how

to like navigate this fucking quagmire is through connecting with other people so so not alone absolutely not alone and let me ask you this, what is it about connection that gives you that feeling? Like that's where you can find spirituality because you can't put your finger on it, right? There is no tangible thing about that, but there's something mystical that happens through connecting with another human being

that provides that healing. You know what? When I had my old van my little toyota previa i was driving down the highway one day in new jersey and uh i was i pulled up next to this you know latino dude driving the exact same year the same color of the minivan right yeah i remember and i just i honked I, and I did a shave and a haircut and he looked over at me and did two bits and I fucking, I was high all day just from that, just that level of connection, man. Just reaching out and just being like, are you getting what I'm putting down? You know? And we, we understood each other, you know?

And like, if I, you know, if you're listening, that's got to go in the cold turkey book. That's all it takes, man. You can move mountains. It's the little things. Yeah. Yeah. I think you made an important point, which is it doesn't have to be the blackest night. And, and I think there's a lot of people who are suffering who think, well, you know, I'm not living on the street or I'm not in jail or, you know, I haven't gotten a DUI or whatever it is. You can always point to somebody who's suffering more or somebody whose condition is far more dire than your own. But the truth of the matter is, if you look in the mirror and you're honest with yourself to recognize that the elevator's going down, it's going to continue to go down, but you can step off at any point. That opportunity is available to you in every single given moment.

It's harder to step off when you still have things to lose. When you hit that rock bottom, that's a blessing, right? Like then you're willing, man, because you'll do anything it takes. But that doesn't have to be your situation. And the truth is that's not the case for most people. And to remain in the moment, right? To stay in the day. I think a lot of people get caught up in future tripping. Projecting ahead. Oh man, I gotta go to this thing next month

and there's no way I can do that sober, a wedding or whatever. It's like, you don't have to worry about that, man. You just got like five hours between now and when your head hits that pillow. Do you think you can make it until then without picking up a drink? That's it, man, that's it.

And you string those things together. I would supplement what both of you guys have said by just saying that it's important that you find somebody that you can talk to honestly. Like I know you feel shameful, you feel embarrassed, that same embarrassment that basically killed your bandmate. You've got to find an outlet for that. So find somebody that you feel like you can be honest with

and like open up and tell them what's going on. Shame can't survive the light. And that is the first step towards like wrestling those demons into the ground. Definitely. Love you guys, man. I'm glad we fucking- Love you both. glad we did this rich thank you so

much for 500 episodes dude 500 episodes can't fucking believe it it's crazy it's a massive accomplishment thank you and we're like we're all indebted and the talent pool i mean present company excluded look at these guys you know like where's the pma book it should be back there it might be in my uh it's not even on the show no i'll bring it out i think it's back in the uh oh means for pussies is there there you go um yeah man seven years 500 episodes it feels like yesterday and also feels like 100 years uh but let's not forget i gotta i gotta plug this yeah man if you wanna read an incredible

fucking journey I think that's the German edition you got there ach du denn don't be klug scheisse read sie book listen

to everybody who's watching or listening I don't take your attention for granted and this journey that I've been on is solely the result of you gifting me with your time take your attention for granted. And this journey that I've been on is solely the result of you gifting me

with your time and your attention. So much love and appreciation to everybody out there who took a chance on this show and has become part of this audience that means so much to me. And it is your energy and enthusiasm and engagement with what I do that keeps me going. So mad love.

And the authenticity of what you do. That's what carries it on. And I always say one thing and it's that people can smell bullshit. And I say the bullshit detector, you might be able to fool people and get over on people, but it's always going to come out. Fool me once. Fool fool you can't be fooled oh we're quoting gw jr we're not gonna walk on that you can't close with that

no but it's the bullshit detector and the authenticity of this show and what you do and you live what the fuck you say you're out there fucking doing it and like i always say pravapas said example is better than precept and i don't know too many people that set a better example than what you do and how you affect people and that comes across to people they know they they can tell that it's authentic it's real and you know fucking amazing 500 episode thanks for having us yeah man yeah man next time we'll thank you and uh next time we'll do it in a cramped hotel room so let's rent the small we're gonna have to do it in phoenix at his ranch the back seat of his truck or something all right guys. Peace. I don't know what that was, but it was kind of amazing. All I can tell you is I absolutely love those guys, each of those guys, but man together, what's the word to describe it?

I'm not sure. Hit me up on Twitter or Instagram at Rich Roll with the one word that you would use to encapsulate that conversation that best bears witness to whatever it was that just went down. While you're at it, throw some love at the brothers. JJ is at JJ Cro-Mag on Twitter and at John Joseph Cro-Mag on Instagram. Mishka is at Mishka Shubali on both Twitter and Instagram. Be sure to check out the show notes on the episode page to learn more about these guys, their music, their writing, and to see what else they're up to. Pick up Mishka's latest offering,

This Fan Could Be Your Life, and one of JJ's books, The PMA Effect, Evolution of a Cro-Magnon, Meat is for Pussies, all the good stuff. And finally, to experience hands down the best plant-based cheese in the known universe, visit srimu at srimu.com, S-R-I-M-U dot com. If you'd like to support the work we do here on the show, subscribe, rate, and comment

on it on Apple Podcasts or Spotify for all you Android users and YouTube for the visually inclined. Share the show or your favorite episodes with friends or on social media. I love seeing all the screen grabs on Instagram. And you can also support us on Patreon at richroll.com forward slash donate. I appreciate everybody, the whole team that helps put on this show.

Jason Camiolo for audio engineering, production, show notes, and interstitial music. Blake Curtis and Margo Lubin for videoing and editing the show. Jessica Miranda for graphics. Georgia Whaley for copywriting, a new addition to the team, welcome Georgia Allie Rogers for portraits

DK for advertiser relationships and theme music by Annalema thank you for the love you guys it's been an incredible 500 episode ride here's to the next 500 I will see you back here in a couple days with the co-founder and CEO of Bar3, Sadie Lincoln, in a great conversation about physical and spiritual balance. Here's a little

slice to whet the appetite. Until then, peace, plants, namaste. Would if we exercised to practice being honest in our bodies. Forget about even like feeling good in our bodies, just honest. And that everything I do in that moment is about honoring who I am in my physical self and what I need in that moment. The more we do that, you build that muscle and that muscle carries you through so many things in life. It's not okay or normal that most women have body image issues. That's not okay. Like we just pass that off now. Oh, that's a phase.

All women go through that. That's not okay. And we have the power, business has the power to change that. We can rewrite the story and we are rewriting it at Bar 3 and so many other beautiful organizations are as well. For me, success is about being authentic to my values and showing up that way as a practice over and over and over again. And you can do that through work. You can do that through sport. You can do that through anything we do in life. We can embody our values as a practice. And if I do that, that to me is success. Thank you.