The Rich Roll Podcast - John Joseph On The PMA Effect: Transcending Labels & Transforming Lives

Episode Date: August 27, 2018

Back by popular demand, my main man and provocateur-at-large John Joseph returns for his 6th appearance on the show to share more of his extraordinary story. A story that lays bare the indelible power of the human spirit to face and transcend unimaginable obstacles and ultimately transform one’s life wholesale. If you’re a longtime listener, Johnny Bloodclot needs no introduction. For the uninitiated, John is a sui generis American original. The very definition of hardcore. A survivor. A spiritual warrior spouting straight talk directly from the streets of the Lower East Side with one singular, driving purpose: getting people to wake the f&*k up. Conceived and raised in abuse, deprived of opportunity and left to his own devices, John turned to violence and drugs on the rough and tumble streets of downtown Manhattan in the 1970's — during New York's most violent decade. It’s a path that predictably led to crime, addiction and incarceration. Spending his teens as a drug mule led to a series of unsavory foster care homes, culminating in unimaginably horrific stints in juvenile detention. Then things went downhill. To avoid long-term incarceration, John enlisted in the Navy, only to go AWOL after a fight. Fleeing the law and rudderless, he found redemption in the hardcore punk rock scene flourishing on Manhattan’s Lower East Side in the early 1980’s. Taken in by the Bad Brains’ frontman H.R., John began to explore not just his musicianship, but his spirituality. It’s a journey that birthed the Cro-Mags – one of the era’s most iconic and influential hardcore punk bands. Later, he found his spiritual salvation living in a Hare Krishna monastery, birthing a life-long love of meditation, yoga, the vegan lifestyle, racing Ironman triathlons, and most importantly, his profound devotion to service. Renown for his straight talk, no BS approach to living, John is the author of Evolution of a Cro-Magnon*;Meat Is For Pussies*; and the upcoming The PMA Effect* — the latter two books each featuring a foreword by your truly — hitting bookstores October 2, 2018 and available for pre-order now here. Today we pick things up where we last left off – a conversation that covers a multitude of subjects. Enjoy! Rich

it's not how many times we get knocked on our ass it's how many times we're willing to pick ourselves up and push through the next gap between expectation and result take action better yourself every day don't just keep talking zip it and push through every single day that's what it's about that's john John Joseph, and this is The Rich Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey everybody, how you guys doing? What is happening? How are you? How are you feeling? How are things working out in your life? Are you good? Are you struggling? It's going to be okay. Let me provide you with a little reprieve from your daily existence with another episode of

the podcast, my podcast. I am Rich Roll. I am your host. Welcome. Thanks for joining me today. Pretty excited because today I reconvene with the one, the only John Joseph, a.k.a. Blood Clot, punk rock legend, lead singer of the iconic Cro-Mags, author, Ironman athlete, survivor, and one of my most popular guests ever, returning for his zillionth appearance on the show we're brought to you today by recovery.com i've been in recovery for a long time it's not hyperbolic to say that i owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that,

I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem. A problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs. They've partnered with the best global behavioral health providers to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it.

Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery.

To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care. Especially because, unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices.

It's a real problem, a problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs. They've partnered with the best global behavioral health providers to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple.

Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. All right, John Joseph.

For those new to the show, John is a man raised in abuse. He was raised in violence. He's a guy who really had to learn how to survive on the gritty Lower East Side of Manhattan as a young person. And he's had to face and overcome tremendous odds and obstacles just to become this amazing human that he is today. The circumstances of our respective upbringings could not be more different, but I really consider this man a brother and I love him deeply. Those who have been listening to the show for a while know the depth of our friendship. In addition to duties as lead singer of the Cro-Mags, John is a bhakti yoga devotee.

He is a multiple Ironman finisher. He is an avid advocate for the plant-based lifestyle, and he's the author of a couple books, Evolution of a Cro-Magnon, which is his memoir, a book called Meat is for Pussies, to which I wrote the foreword, and a brand new book coming out in October and available for pre-order now entitled The PMA Effect, to which I also contributed the foreword. John is also the creator of a new documentary series currently in production called 30 to Life. It's a collaboration with former podcast guest Kip Anderson of Cowspiracy and What the Health, as well as Paul DeGelder, the guy who survived a bull shark attack. And it's a really cool project that

involves mentoring recent paroled violent felons to provide them with life and lifestyle skills to rebuild their lives. Today, we pick things up where we last left off. This is a conversation that covers many things. We talk about John's recent appearance on the Joe Rogan experience. things. We talk about John's recent appearance on the Joe Rogan experience. We talk about the current divisiveness and toxicity that embroils American culture and our crisis of consciousness. We talk about his past as a Hare Krishna monk and his current relationship with spirituality. We talk about his documentary and his new book, what it means to live a life of service, and the importance of ahimsa, removing violence from our lives. If you're new to me and John, I strongly urge you to check out our very first episode.

That's RRP 41, which goes into John's life in great detail and compelling technicolor. You can also find links to all of his other appearances on the podcast in the show notes on the episode page at richroll.com, or you can just search the archives on my website. Final word before we get into it, John JJ is no stranger to language most foul. He drops F-bombs like Eminem drops rhymes. And I'm not one for editing anybody's authentic voice. So just a heads up for those squeamish or parents with small children within earshot. All right, put your seatbelts on and prepare thyself for the John Joseph experience. What kind of, what is this called again? I actually don't know what that's called.

But it's cool. It's cool as hell. Look at that. Used to love gemstones, man. Chai Ananda Das. Chai Ananda Das. In the house, dude. Dude.

Back for round 25. I don't know how many times we've done this, but good to see you again, my friend. Absolutely. Delighted to have you back here. We should quickly say, I don't want to linger on this, but we did record a podcast like two weeks ago, and it was epic. It was like over an hour and a half,

and I looked over at my uh digital audio recorder and realized that at some point it had it had cut out and we did not that's the universe mechanical failure uh that i actually only want in 400 episodes it's only happened one other time so there's a reason that's special it's bringing us together another time we're back again uh and it tested the uh the boundaries of my pma my brother because i definitely got up in my head about it i was like i can't believe this is happening and you're like dude we were just talking about obstacle actually we were just talking and everything that we were talking about manifested that when you know things happen you got to be able to to push through it and see that

it's a test and this and that and then next thing we know i look over you're sweating you got your glasses off you're like i'm having a fucking panic attack what the fuck i'm like i thought it was like holy shit what's going on and then you're like none of this recorded yeah i know it was rough and here's the thing like adaptability is what it's about it's not about like oh man you know shaming myself because i had a strong reaction because i was emotionally invested in our conversation and excited about the prospect of sharing it and then it goes sideways it goes left the expectation is not met and that doesn't mean that you're not going to be disappointed but what i've noticed is the half-life of that disappointment fading much more quickly so i can like

shruff it off like a little bit easier than perhaps i used to be able to well you know what it is too it's and doing this documentary and that i'm doing 30 to life and working with these uh parolees that have done insane amounts of time is that you can't keep punishing yourself when things happen and uh you know it was the same thing yeah well it's a little embarrassing to compare like oh our conversation didn't record to a guy who's you know coming off 25 years well you know the thing was you always have to look ahead and try to make a positive and look to the positive. And immediately when that happened, I was like,

yo, chill, it's cool. We're going to go ready to have your anniversary dinner. And, you know, things happen, man. Things happen. Like we were talking about that even in my races. I've never had a race where it hasn't fucking been something. Yeah, it's been like we were talking about that even in my races and i've never had a race where yeah every it's been a running joke yeah between us because i'm like every time you do an iron man something goes crazy sideways on you you've never done an iron man race where you showed up and it just went to plan nope what's going on with that it's uh the test of tests because not only do you have to

complete the uh endurance test it's a mental test to you know things are going to happen and it's like you always have to be resilient resiliency is is a quality that i've had to develop in my life to push through bad shit, man. Well, speaking of things that are happening right now, yesterday you were on Joe Rogan's podcast. That was a big moment. Yes. So I wanted to kind of recap it for a minute. I mean, it was cool.

I thought you crushed it. I thought you rocked it. And I thought you guys had a really amazing conversation that I think goes a long way towards bridging this gap between the vegan plant-based community and other perspectives on diet and nutrition. And, you know, I really liked the way that Joe opened it up by saying, look, there's a toxic dialogue happening right now. Whether you're paleo or carnivore or low carb or whatever it is, we're all in our respective silos. We're shouting at each other on social media

and we're missing the big picture, which is that most people out there are just suffering. They're eating McDonald's. They're not taking care of themselves. They're over-medicated. They're in jobs they hate. And all of that bickering basically just perpetuates a status quo that's in nobody's interest. And the fact that Joe

had the grace to have someone like yourself on the show who's coming from a different perspective, I think speaks very highly of his character and his genuineness when it comes to really trying to find a better way to communicate. And I think this breakdown in productive dialogue is something, you know, obviously we're trying to have is being poisoned right now by sectors of the population. And that's what we do. Yeah, and we're divided. And you said it during the podcast, like, we're supposed to be the United States of America, and we're the divided states of America right now. we're the divided states of america right now well you know what's interesting is that uh when i left from doing the podcast here you sent him uh you screenshot your text message exchange with him and told him hey i just had john and he said he's coming on and you know his response was exactly

that it's so fucking toxic and there's so much disrespect and so much shit going back and forth with this social media stuff like i just want to sit down and have a conversation about the whole thing and be respectful obviously i don't agree with a lot of the things that he does but you know i have friends that do the same thing and i don't i don't hate on them but the fact of the matter is it's bridging a gap, and it was an olive branch that was extended to come on and have a conversation. I personally think this shit went epic, man. Yeah, that was good. We went and talked about so much different shit and had a good time and had laughs.

I mean, you know, when he got into the whole uh you know cholesterol unsaturated fat i was like well you know who's funding those studies like there was certain things i had to be like well you know i think you have to pick your battles and look at the bigger picture of what are you trying to accomplish in this conversation like you could have dug in and gone into the trenches on a specific sort of point that he was trying to make. And I think ultimately you making the decision to like, look, let's just make this about inspiration and goodwill. That's what I did.

We could quibble about these little things, but I think that would have just gone off the rails. And I think it would have undermined the greater impact that you can have by saying, look, this is where I'm coming from. And having people leave that experience with perhaps a different perspective on a lifestyle that you've been leading for, you know, what, 30 years at this point? 37. 37 years.

37 going on 38. I mean, you know. And really shift people's, you know, opinion on the lifestyle because you're coming from a very unique perspective on it. on the lifestyle because you're coming from a very unique perspective on it i mean so many people commented that were like you know yeah you you know it's just one con like just you get all the trolls on social and a lot of it was coming uh you know this these vegans were like after listening to that shit i don't even know where you stand on hunting that was bullshit you had a chance you got attacked by vegans yeah i didn't i don't pay attention to any of that no i don't but it was like you know i saw it because

it came up and i was you know tagged in it do i give a shit they're they're basically perpetuating the very thing that you were trying to speak out exactly and you know what most of the people were like that shit was epic like fucking 99 uh percent of the people that heard the podcast all the way through and uh you know it was it was uh it was it was a great conversation yeah what was hilarious is it was clear very early on like joe makes this decision to just kind of you know throw you a little bone and then like lean back and you just you were like a wind-up doll which which one well basically like you would just go like yeah he'd ask you one question and then you'd go for like 25 minutes yeah well he could

have interjected but he's like i'm just gonna let this guy tell his story well one of the things one of the things that i really wanted to get across was the fact that i don't limit myself he was like you know vegan and i was like i don't call myself a vegan and let's talk about that i mean yeah you're like more of a bhakti yoga guy because that's your entry point into all of this yeah because i was like i don't call myself a vegan i don't call myself uh i don't label myself a iron man i don't label myself a punk rocker. I don't put mundane labels onto my... And somebody just asked me that because before I even went on the podcast, I was like, I don't call myself a vegan.

And they're like, why not? And I'm like, because that limits... Well, Joe was like, yeah, but you are, right? Yeah, I said I practice all the ethics of veganism to the unteamed degree, which is I don't use animal products, I don't wear animal products, I don't support any testing, I don't eat any animal products whatsoever. But I'm coming from a more universal approach with everything that I do, which I said I call myself a Hare Krishna before I call myself anything.

He's like, like it was you know i kind of threw him sideways on the whole thing because he expected to me to defend my vegan position and i was like well dude here check this out he's like where did where did the hari krishna thing come in and then you you told like a 40 minute story yeah to bring that around yeah and it was good because you had to contextualize that in order for it to make sense yeah otherwise it's like yo this dude's weird he got into that people don't know really what harry krishna is about and i kind of tried i had to uh you know to break it down and say like yo it was bad brains and they got me the job at the health food store

and then the guy there was this famous punk rocker name who played in this band of dots and then he was you know i would challenge him every day philosophically like and he would defeat me by quoting bhagavatam and bhagavad-gita and like all of this stuff and giving me this book science of self-realization that shit was once i read that book, and actually, wait a minute, to correct myself, he did not give me that book. He said to me, Krishna is going to show you that what I'm telling you is the truth. And two days later, I took organic vegan groceries to my mom, and I'm in 74th Street in Jackson Heights, Roosevelt's train station. And there's a Hare Krishna there, and that's who gave me the science of self-realization. Two days later.

And then I'm like, you're not going to fucking believe this, dude. I go back to the helpful store and he just laughed. Did he have like the shaved head with the little patch of hair? Yeah, yeah. What do they call that? Sika. Sika. Yeah, the Sika.

With the robes and the whole thing. He was a monk. And he was distributing books in a train station. And the thing was, that's where I learned about service because he goes, I said, well, you should just give me that book. Why should I have to pay for the knowledge? And he goes, it's about you surrendering to the process. And that's why I said, well, I don't have any money.

All I have is these groceries. He's like, well, I've been working here all day how about i uh we we i take one of those bottles of juice and i said yeah that's a good trade i'll trade you the bottle of juice for the book and then i read that book and i was like i gotta go to the temple man that's what brought you in so uh the hari krishna thing is fascinating and i want to kind of explore this a little bit more deeply. I recently had Nimai Delgado on the podcast. By the time this airs, that will have already aired. But everybody knows him as the crazy, you know, fit, vegan, bodybuilder guy.

The guy, like, rocks a physique like nobody's business. It's insane. He's never eaten meat in his whole life. But what I did not know about him was his crazy spiritual story. He grew up with Hare Krishna parents, and he is an adherent to the principles to this. He sort of ventured away, and now he seems like he's kind of back in that world in an interesting way. And what's compelling about that is he obviously doesn't, you know, sort of cut the picture of what you would expect of a person who is of that perspective and faith. And I think, you know, from my own personal perspective, when I think of Hare Krishna, I think of, you know, the people, the monks ringing the bells and, you know, trying to get you to buy the book in the airport or the bus station or walking through the park in some urban center.

And looking at it like, well, that's weird. That's clearly some kind of weird cult. And that's about all I knew about it. Right. That is the be-all, end-all of my education when it comes to Hare Krishna, just some weird fringe religious cult. Hare Krishna, just some weird fringe, like religious cult. So walk me through and explain to me why you found this compelling and maybe what's, you know, the truth behind it that resonates with you versus kind of that image that I have in my head. Right. So to break it all down, I would reference my guru, Srila Prabhupada,

and a film that came out about his life called Your Ever Well Wisher. And he comes from a sampradaya in India that goes back thousands and thousands of years of unbroken teachers. A sampradaya is like a lineage of teaching. A disciplic succession, parampara, the disciplic succession. Pradaya is like a lineage of teaching. A disciplic succession, parampara, the disciplic succession. So his spiritual master, his guru, Bhakti Siddhanta, said, you have to go to the West and spread this knowledge. Now Prabhupada, 70 years old, he was already in retired life, sannyasi.

So for him to get on a ship and cross two oceans and have a heart attack, two heart attacks, and come to New York because his guru told him to take the knowledge of the Vedas, whereas all yoga stems from the Veda means knowledge. So at 70 years old, he comes to New York. He gets robbed. You know, just his life was about service. So, you know, down on the lower east side opens up a storefront all the yippies and hippies and alan ginsburg and everybody and he starts the printing

of his books so bhagavad-gita as it is srimad bhagavatam all this so um this is back in in in the 60s and uh back and doing he came to new york in the 70s no he came to new york i believe it was 66 and he passed in like 77 yeah um so you know where he came to was the neighborhood where I live and grew up, basically, which was a very dangerous area for him to be down there. But that's the work. While all the other gurus were living up on Park Avenue, that's why I think he resonated with a lot of people. And especially with me when I found out about his story because he came here with seven dollars and a case of books can you imagine at 70 at 70 years old seven dollars and a case of books and the order of his guru and having faith in that order that his guru told him this is already preordained that this is

going to happen this is there's a golden period you know whatever the age of aquarius everyone's looking for spiritual knowledge just go and everything will happen and it did people started joining the temples got built and hit the books the books went out so when you see people uh in the robes and the shaved head those are the monks so their job is to go out there and follow in the footsteps of the acharya acharya means one who leads by example and that's what prabhupada did and distribute those books to help the next person in line so coming from where i came from which was a life of violence and a life of crime and a life of drugs and just all the insanity that me and my brothers had to go through. And still, you know, when I first met the devotees in 1980,

I actually met them first in Washington, D.C. when I was hanging out as a punk rocker. And we used to, like, make fun of them dancing. And all the punk rockers, we would just spoof on them dancing around on the street, you know, like punk rockers with the harry krishnas right but then somebody tried to get you know we would see them all the time and they would be so nice and then some jerk offs tried to like get in their face and and i stood and i just got up and in the dude's face i was like yo back the fuck off dude don't don't do

nothing to these people i'm gonna fucking smash you they're not bothering the fuck off, dude. Don't do nothing to these people. I'm going to fucking smash you. They're not bothering you. Fuck off. And that was before? That was before I got to New York. But see, that was, and when I found out later, it's all about, in a weird way, that was doing some devotional service. It was like, you know, it was planting a seed. I'm here in the mantra. They gave me the food.

You know, it was planting a seed. I'm here in the mantra. They gave me the food. And then even with the bad brains, when I was meeting them down in D.C., I was in this health food store called Fields of Plenty. And the guy would go to the temple every day and go get the food and then bring it back. And I would, like, steal some of his food. And after working there for, like, two months, the guy goes, yo, you know, I know you stole my food every day. I was like, what?

I did not, man. Because I, you know. And he's like, yeah, but it's okay. It's spiritual food. You're supposed to steal it. There's no hard and fast rules. So it was everything leading. That had to be the first time anybody had said anything like that to you.

No, I don't know, because I was a little thief. Yeah. You know, I had to hustle. He brought you to the temple for the first time anybody had said anything like that to you. No, hell no, because I was a little thief. Yeah. You know, I had to hustle. He brought you to the temple for the first time, right? Yeah. Well, I went to the temple the first time when I got back to New York. And then the Bear Brains got me a job at a health food store. And then all of that stuff happened.

It just kept happening and happening. And it was like then when I read the book and knew understood the philosophy of what it is bhakti yogi it's about service to other people it's about helping other people uh you know spreading you know the wisdom and stuff like that and renunciation and all this amazing stuff because you know it says that uh you know religion without philosophy is fanaticism and that's what you have today is a lot of fanatics and then you know philosophy without religion or devotion is mental concoction you need a combination of both so when i read those books by prabhavad the bhagavad-gita as it is the isha panisad the bh Bhagavatam, all these little other books, Science of Self-Realization, which was snippets of his lectures to people on certain topics.

I was like, you know, and the main chapter that hit me was like spiritual solutions to material problems. Because everyone's trying to fix a material problem with another material answer. It don't work. problem with another material answer it don't work what really starts healing people and I needed healing because everything that I had gone through lock up and the drugs and everything else I needed to do some deep healing and punk rock wasn't doing it nothing was doing it it's only when I came in contact with bad brains and then that led me to the health food store and then I started going to yoga and then I started going to the temple and everything and reading the books and applying it because you know it's not just about being armchair philosophers that's one of the

things Prabhupada said was that you don't just read this book and then okay I have this knowledge and I'm above you and I feel superior to you. It's not about that. It's about taking that knowledge and applying it to your life, not being an armchair philosopher and staying humble. Humility. You should always think of yourself lower than the straw in the street, devoid of all sense of false prestige and always ready to offer respects and service to others.

That's the mood that you're trying to cultivate as a devotee. And it just resonated so much with me because you would go to the temple, they would just make you feel so special. They would serve you hand and foot and sit down with you and talk philosophy. And I came at it very challenging. I was trying to defeat it because I thought I was Mr. Philosopher because I read Gurdjieff, Krishnamurti, all these books, and I couldn't defeat it. What's interesting to me is your openness and receptivity to this, like the fact that you have this thirst for knowledge, this thirst for growth and expansion. And, you know, I've heard you talk about, you know, kind of the, you know, the process that led you to that,

like meeting the bad brains and the impact that HR had on you and, you know, changing your relationship with food and all of these little kind of dominoes. But I'm not sure I totally understand what it was that actually catalyzed this shift from, yourself through some process of like you know uh you know cleaning house but that's very different from you know a spiritual awakening where you're like let me read that book i can't wait to go see what krishnamurti has to say like where did that enthusiasm come from because that's that's self-generated um i think it came from the fact that i started seeing how it was making me feel to meditate and making me feel how to do when i was doing yoga and then how i felt when i went to the temple and chanted and and got up and chanted japa meditation the hari krishnaaha Mantra on beads.

It wasn't anything that had to do with something I can explain mentally. It was going beyond the mind, beyond, you know, the spiritual education and spiritual knowledge is something you have to live and experience. And that's what, and I tell this story in a new book I wrote. And Chris Garver, the tattoo artist, he told this story. He said, oh, yeah, his mother and father went to Korea, and his mother was involved with these Buddhists that meditated. And, you know, his father's like an old-school type dude.

and they you know his father's like an old school type dude and uh took his father there and uh they tried to get the father to meditate and chris garber's father said why should i meditate and the monk said try it for 30 days and see how you feel after 30 days and he did and he and i just had dinner with chris the other night his father's still meditating so i use the analogy all the time that it's not enough uh to really taste the nectar and and and you know that's inside the jar you have to open the jar it's not something that you can continuously mentally speculate about you have to actually apply yourself to the science the formula and then get the result and the result that i got to see uh through spiritual practice was what's it was freeing me from my anxiety which you know the material world is full of that i was a wall i had fucking i was hunted as a fugitive I had people looking for

me it was all this stuff going on and still doing the drugs and still doing whatever and it was how I felt how meditation and practice and getting up early in the morning and going and doing service and all this stuff. It's how it made me feel and freed me from all of those demons of my past. So if I'm going to say, you know, how did the process work? It was because I did the work. Right, you did the work right you did the work the practice thing is such a obvious but but really underappreciated and overlooked aspect of this whole thing i mean you know you're look as somebody who travels all the time you're in airports what do you see when

you walk into the airport bookstore it's just like 8 000 self self-help books, right? Every month, like, you know, 20 more new self-help books. And like, if these worked, then there would be no need for more self-help books. And I think what happens is, and I'm not besmirching self-help books. They're well-intentioned and I'm sure most of them have good information in them. But I think what happens is people are in pain.

They reach out to these books, they read them, and they can intellectually understand what they're saying. But there's a gap between that and actually putting whatever wisdom is packed into whatever book into a practice that is replicable and sustainable and daily. Right. Well, that's one of the things that I say in the new book that I wrote, The PMA Effect. One of the first things I say is you have to agree with me right now to do the things daily that are listed in the book. It's not enough to just understand them and grasp them intellectually.

You have to actually do the work and apply yourself for the change to work. I just tried to put in the book what worked for me. And what worked for me was taking action. When I got into this, I was like, I want to live as a monk. I want to live this because I started getting nobody can sustain life without pleasure. It's you're either going to look for pleasure in the material world, which ultimately because most pleasure is in the mode of passion. So it's pleasure in the beginning and misery in the end.

Only pleasure in the mode of goodness is pleasure in the beginning and the end. And then beyond that is spiritual pleasure. So in order to really experience that, you get those little tastes. It's called rasa, which is taste. Yeah, it's going to be there, and you're going to get that taste. But what I saw was how it made me feel, and then I'm like, I want to do this more. How do I do this? How do I?

I said right away, how do I? I want to become a monk i want to become a monk and i want to live this every day and uh reap the the effects uh in my life of of what this process could do and i would see the other devotees and be like man these people are so happy and i think that's the greatest thing that everyone sees Hare Krishna's dancing and they're so ecstatic and they're like, oh, they're fucking brainwashed because everybody that's walking around. I definitely had that thought.

If you look at people's, they say the face is the index of the mind. So if you look around and you look at people on the street, nobody's fucking happy. And here's these people, they have nothing, and they're dancing around and they fucking happy and here's these people they have nothing and they're dancing around and they're happy and joyous and it's because yo they've devoted their life to this path and and there's so much power in that mantra that it just it brings happiness and and i know that from uh experience because i would do my two hours of japa meditation I would go and do the congregational chant and with the drums and everything and how it made me feel was something

I never experienced in the material world before that's why I took to the process it was a feeling that I experienced it wasn't you know mental mental you know intellectual understanding something intellectually or mentally does not sustain that's why people read self-help books and they have the knowledge but then you talk to them six months later they're going to do something else I didn't want to be like that I wanted to be like all right I'm going to take this up Prabhupada said do this and you'll see the results that come. And that's what I did, and that's why I took to it, because little by little the path was leading to me completely surrendering

and becoming a brahmachari, a celibate monk, which I did for two years. Right, which I want to talk about. Do you have your japa with you right now? It's in your bag, but you take that everywhere you go. Everywhere. What's the daily meditation process look like? I try to get as many rounds as I can. There's

108 beads on it. So you chant Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Hare Hare, Hare Ram, Hare Ram, Hare Hare on each bead and then you do it around the japa mala it's 108 and then you're supposed to do that 16 rounds. Do I do that every day?

Not every day I can. When I'm on the road, traveling with the band, I say my mantras every day, because we have long drives or whatever. And I have the Neshringa Kavacham playing, which is the ultimate prayer for protection. But there's so much craziness going on in the world, man. That's like my coat of armor that when I chant, it takes you out of the modes of material nature. The three modes are ignorance, passion, and goodness. And it's a spiritual sound vibration, so it puts you in touch with the spiritual connection and the spiritual energy and uh it just it's not something you can really explain i try to tell people experiential it's yeah that's what it is i say yo get some beads and i'll show you the mantra and and chant it yourself and uh i know

the 108 has significance in hindu culture i just forget but do you do you know why it's 108 uh i'm not like i don't know it's just vedic astrology why i think it's a vedic thing yeah it was uh it's an auspicious number you know krishna um it's a bunch of different reasons which i can't put my but on the on the protective armor thing uh you know this crazy story right when you were in it you were you were traveling with the band in a van you guys got in an accident like the van yeah it was crazy because like you know we were on tour and it was in the 90s and um you know the ultimate test is they say yo will you take will you chant at the time of death that's the ultimate thing everyone who's born death is certain so death is the big test we have little exams during our life but then when death comes

can you focus and meditate at the time of death and remember Krishna and chant the holy name so we were like playing up it was the winter time and we played in Vermont and we were driving home through the mountains and I told the dude I said look man stay on the highway man and you know I know that he smoked fucking hash too and I was like don't smoke and stay on the fucking highway because. I had on like black ice. Yeah, it was fucking, it started to snow and get bad. And I'm like, dude, and I'm sleeping in the front chair and I'm sitting in the front passenger seat of the van. And I wake up to hearing, oh my God, we're going off the cliff. That's what I woke up to in the middle of the night and then

the van just started the van was just just went off the road we hit black ice the guy was smoking fucking hash and he went on a side road to save 30 minutes of time or whatever he thought he was saving and we went off the road and the van just flipped and bounced and flipped and bounced and the whole time i was just chanting harry krishna at the top of my lungs everybody else was screaming and i just was like you know i just chanted as loud as i could so at that point it's like a it's so deeply ingrained in you as like the go-to thing for dealing with stress well you know i've, I've talked to a lot of people and found this to be true. If you talk to a lot of people who have near-death experience, the mind, it's so painful at the time of death that the mind is racing to find what it felt the most comfortable with in its life. For some people,

that's going to be family or, you know, greedy people, it's their bank account. Oh my God, I'm losing everything or so if you practice spiritually every single day at the time of death what are you going to take shelter of i took shelter of krishna and i was chanting and uh it was just crazy man because like one dude got thrown out of the back window and was laying on the highway. Because the van first flipped. He was going so fast. The cops said he was doing 80 miles an hour.

So when the van first flipped, one dude got thrown. Right when we started going over and flipped the first time, he got thrown out the back window. All the gear was in the van, so it was on top of everybody and my face was all bloody the bolts in the front seat snapped and like slammed my face off the fucking windshield i was cut up i ran back up onto the road and it was like kind of like a bad comedy because just as I got to the top of the road, the salt truck went by. And I'm like, you motherfucker, man. And then I can see that there was a construction night crew down on the road, like probably three quarters of a mile down the road. It was all lit up.

So I ran down there to tell them, but the interesting thing was, as I got to the top of the road and I walked probably 20 feet, had we gone off that road 20 feet later, the drop was over 300 feet. We would have fucking died. And I was like, yo. And I was just chanting and thankful. And I ran all the way down there and fucking said hey man we got in an accident we went off the fucking road people are hurt

and they called the cops oh they have broken bones and shit like that like but uh and you were fine yeah man I had cuts on my forehead and shit and whatever the fuck and my nose got fucked up but compared to what the fuck I my nose got fucked up but compared to what the fuck i could have happened but i really feel uh you know for whatever reason that was

just and i've been tested like that certain times where shit crazy shits happened and like all of a sudden out of nowhere because death can come at any moment and it's like you hope that you have enough preparation time to say you know say your mantras and and take shelter of what you got to take shelter but it's a test and that's why i try to chant every day and and uh you know trying to trying to live a positive life every day because uh i think we attract the energy that we put out into the world too like you know and even then i was like having parties and fucking making pot brownies and being a fucking jerk and i kind of think that that was like hey man slap right i saved you from 20 feet of dying yeah you would have went off a cliff but wake the fuck up man human life is very

valuable and you're pissing it away and the thing is when you do things in knowledge of what you're supposed to be doing as opposed to not knowing any better the karmic reaction of that is much more severe you know so i i i took that as a as a as a blessing as As a calling, as a call to action to take it to the next level. Absolutely. And how long were you in this before you became a monk? And you were a monk for like two years, right? Yeah. And how much of that was in Hawaii?

Well, it first started out in Puerto Rico. And when I got to Puerto Rico, I was doing the raw food thing. I was... I raw food thing, you know? I was, I see you checking the air. If I glance at the recorder, it's just because I'm neurotic. It's all right, it's all right. It's not recording. I'm listening to you, though.

Keep going. No, I know. But what was really weird was when I joined the Temple, see, I first got into the whole thing. I went full bore raw foods. I met Victorious Kavinskas. I, like, met the people from apocrates health center uh

this dude i knew kevin had a raw food restaurant so i got in i was completely raw organic organic vegan so when i went my friend vinny that talked to me the drummer from the dots and now the unsane he told me he lived in puerto rico in the temple you're in the fucking mountains and it's fucking beautiful you look across the valley you're in the fucking mountains and it's fucking beautiful you look across the valley you're in Garabo and then El Junque is right there it's like so magical and mystical I was like I want to join that temple he's like just go down man they'll accept you in so I didn't call ahead nothing and you showed up I showed up with we each had three 25-pound bags. How did you get to Puerto Rico when you're kind of on the lam?

Dude, they didn't check ID. You were able to get on planes without fucking shit back in the day. I traveled all over the goddamn place. Puerto Rico is part of the United States, so I didn't even, I had like a fake ID. You don't need a passport to go there. You don't need shit to go to Puerto Rico and I flew down and I had three 25 pound bags of sprouting seeds and this other guy Tomas from the punk rock scene he had 20 because he was on this journey with me we went down there

together he had bags of sprouting seeds we showed up to the temple with no possessions other than sprouting seeds they're like what the fuck is this i was like yo those are sprouting seeds and right away from the like the vibe that i realized something's fucking going on here something's they're like well i doubt you're even gonna get to use those like and then it was just this weird vibe. And I just remember, like, the first, so they said, okay, hey, you sleep in this, you know, you sleep in this, the dorms and shit. And it was up near the rainforest. So, like, the first night, we fucking got, like, I was like, yo, is there any more mosquito nets? They're like, nah, no, we don't have any extra mosquito nets. So I had like fucking, you know, 300 mosquito bites.

And then at 4 o'clock in the morning, I hear animals screaming. And it turns out there's a pig slaughterhouse across the road. And they're killing the fucking animals. I'm like, so the dream and this tropical fantasy of being in this beautiful temple in the rainforest and everything started becoming a fucking nightmare. And I'm like, whoa, man, this is, and I just wanted to surrender and be a devotee. And then the temple president, this guy, Vakresh, total fucking criminal, calls me into the office, and I'm thinking he's going to welcome me, and me and my friend sit down, and he's like, who the hell told you to come to this temple? I'm like, what? He's like, who told you to come to this temple? I said, well, my friend lived here,

Vinny, and he said it's a great temple. I just wanted to surrender. He's like, bullshit. I'm going to find out what you're doing here, and I'm going to get to the bottom of this, and then I'm going to throw you the fuck out. And I'm like, dude, how are you coming at me like that? I'm trying to be a devotee. I'm trying to surrender. He's like, what's with all those fucking seeds you got?

He's cursing at me. Very aggressive. He thought they were drugs? drugs no he just was like that's bullshit when nobody wants that shit and you know this and that and then so the first morning they always give a class on the bag of a time and his whole class he's sitting on an elevated seat looking at us and he's like if you don't like it here you get the hell out on that road and you just we're not even giving you a ride back to the air. It started feeling like some Jim Jones type shit.

Like, what the fuck did we step into over here? And then I'm like, yo, I'm a raw foodist. Like, you know, can we get some fruit and vegetables? And he's like, we have no fruit and vegetables. I'm like, this is a tropical island. He's like, throw more chilies into the milk you know fucking type you know stuff basically it's it's you know interject imbalanced human into you know a spiritual organization and like light a match and and then

uh we just he he made us work all day long in the hot sun. No hats, no nothing on a cliff. Come on, dude. Where's your gratitude? Removing tree stumps with an ax. I was like, yo, there's a bull. He's like, you're not using the bull. This is building character. Get out there and, you know.

We had to chop around the whole thing and then pull the tree stumps out on this hill. And it was just after like three days, we were fried. I was like, yo, let's just get the fuck out of here. And that's what we did. And then it turned out he was raping women in the temple. He was fucking smuggling drugs. He was doing all this crazy shit. He was like a fucking total gangster.

And that's the same guy he was the vice president of the brooklyn temple and later on asked me to sell sell drugs for him and do all this crazy shit and i'm the guy who threatened you yeah yeah so what happened was i had left the temple uh i i ended up joining in hawaii and then i came back uh after a year in hawaii i came to new york and did you do the whole thing with the the crazy hair and the yeah i I ended up joining in Hawaii, and then I came back after a year in Hawaii. I came to New York. And did you do the whole thing with the crazy hair and the whole thing? Yeah, I shaved my head. I wore the robes.

I went out enchanted. Do you have pictures of you from that time? Nah, man. You know, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm sure there's some somewhere, but I don't have any. Right, right, right. And then I leftaii and i came to new york how but how long were you in hawaii a year yeah and that was that was where it clicked

in and that's when you started also doing martial arts and it was yeah this karate kid well it was it was uh they had me first on a big island up on the farm and stuff like that. And this one devotee practiced martial arts. And then we came back to the Oahu temple. And he would train every day. So I would get up at 2 o'clock every morning, chant all my rounds two hours before Mangalarti, which is the morning ceremony. And then I would do that.

I would go to class. And then before breakfast, I would train, run or swim or do kathas or whatever, and then eat breakfast and then go out to Kalakaua Avenue and distribute books and do whatever. So that lasted about a year. distribute books and do whatever so that lasted about a year and i started noticing now in retrospect that weird shit was going on out there too it was like you didn't know about it but then when you heard about it you're like oh shit that's what the fuck was going on there and this whole institution ultimately kind of collapses upon itself right this like this this sort of poisoning of the you know the ideas of Prabhupada and the kind of fundamental Prabhupada never appointed any of them

to become they took it upon themselves to be his successor when he left the planet in 77 so I went back to New York and that's when I did uh I was the biggest, one of the biggest hustler collectors in the entire movement. They had me out doing stickers at concerts and fucking just crazy shit, dude. Wheelchair Santa and fucking just, you know, crazy stuff to make insane amounts of money. Like I was collecting like $3,000 three thousand four thousand dollars a week and turning it over and then I started hearing that they're stealing the money and all this shit's going on and Prabhupada never appointed any of them to be guru they did it themselves and you just started hearing all these nightmares these people kids were getting raped and all this shit was going on

and I'm like once you know i heard about the kids in in the school getting raped that's when i was like yo i'm fucking i'm i'm i'm going against these people now and i let i left the temple to do music and stuff whatever like that but i never lost faith i kept going to the temple so then one of the weekends i was going back to the temple for the sunday feast that guy for creche comes up to me and he's like we get large amounts of marijuana and cocaine donated do you know where i could get rid of it and and we can give the money to the temple i said dude you're asking me to sell fucking drugs he's like yeah well you know the person doesn't want to give money like they they have

becomes like a mob thing yeah so that's what he was doing and he was stealing money like he did he had all these businesses and it was just keeping the money and driving sports cars and selling guns and doing steroids he was like an african-american fucking thug dude that's what that's what the fuck he was and then i told this woman i was like i i said yo you know vikresh asked me to fucking sell drugs for him she's like what and uh and i said yeah he fucking said you know do i know where to get rid of pounds and fucking kilos of cocaine and shit and i was like because he knew i was street you know he knew I'm from the fucking streets and uh I did know where to get rid of it but I never I always kept my material life

and I kept the temple a sanctuary I never brought any bullshit into the temple when I had material desires to have a girlfriend or do whatever I left I was like yo i can't this is my sanctuary i'm never going to pollute this sanctuary if i want to smoke weed or i want to be with girls or do whatever i'm not gonna do it in here and fake the funk and be fake and be a hypocrite i left these guys did it in the temple and did whatever the fuck they wanted and and is that still going on or did it uh it's not it got exposed well let me let me not get ahead of that and then i'll get to what the fuck's going on now uh so what happened was i came back to the sunday feast unbeknownst to me she went and told everybody that yo vikresh is selling drugs so he comes up to me in the Sunday feast he's like I should beat

your fucking ass this is how he's talking to me I said what he's like yo you fucking told everybody the conversation we had I should fuck you up and I was like yo you're selling drugs I said let me tell you something bro and I was only like what 22 whatever the fuck younger he's a grown-ass man taking steroids I know he got guns and everything else and I just said bro I ain't like these other dudes if you put your fucking hands on me you better watch your back for the rest of your life because I'm gonna put a baseball bat across your fucking skull I'm not playing you ain't doing shit to me so he let it die out and then like months down the road it was like four or five months later he goes uh because i had started doing press in the magazines and saying like yo these people are fucked up and i started exposing and i lost every single friend of mine

that was a hari krishna turned against me how could you do this you're destroying i'm like i'm not destroying nothing i'm putting the truth out there so people don't get fucking hustled by these charlatans in the garb of devotees and prabhupada said demons will come to this movement dressed as devotees to destroy the movement from within and that's who these fucking people were that's what they were doing so everybody turned against me and called me a fucking demon and i i went against ramapod who now turned out he tried to sucker and steal the temple for 58 million dollars and they kicked them out but they what they were calling me demon and all this shit for speaking the truth and they they ostracize me from the

whole community nobody would talk to me but I I knew what I had to do was right and I've done that my whole life I don't care if you are against me I will stand in the face of a thousand motherfuckers and speak the truth that's what I do so then months he waits by and I was doing all this press and exposing them. And I go to the temple and he's like, oh, you know, hey, you know, I got these condominiums in Virginia. And, you know, we need some work done. I'll pay you $100 a day. Come down there for a couple of weeks and do work on the condos with me. And I was like, really?

Oh, man. He's like, yeah, everything's cool. I understand. You know, just, know just you know pretended everything was cool so I told my friend Googie the drummer from the Misfits who was also coming around the temple I said yo he just invited me down to work on the condominiums he goes bro they're gonna fucking frag you if you go down there you're not coming back they're gonna fucking frag you, if you go down there, you're not coming back, they're gonna fucking kill you, these guys don't fucking play, they killed Sulochan, they killed these other devotees that spoke out against them, they're gonna fucking whack you, dude, you're in the press saying all this shit, exposing them, and I was like, he goes, bro,

don't go, you're gonna get, you're not coming back if you go, and I didn't go, whoa, and, and then it just kept continuing and continuing, I kept, and my friends were these kids that were, that got raped in the fucking schools, they protected them, they covered it up, and, and I just kept speaking out against him and even so now it became this whole big thing in America so now they hustle and they use the temples as you know and this is what's going on in Brooklyn the guy just tried to fucking sell the temple for like and I have connections everywhere I know people everywhere a big-ass real estate person three years ago goes, Hey, man, ain't this the temple?

And he does big, huge real estate development deals. And he goes, isn't this the temple you lived in, 305 Scheming Hall Street? It's on the market for fucking $58 million, the building. I'm like, what? They're trying to sell the temple. They kicked all the devotees out. And then this one. These corrupt dudes at the top.

Ramapod. And all these guys were trying to sell the temple. Underneath the devotees nose. And I started telling people. And then it came out. That it's true. And they just. Now the devotees all stopped it.

Because don't get me wrong 95 of the devotees it's the hierarchy who put themselves they created a pyramid scheme where they're the enjoyers and every the underlings underneath them uh you know that's that's exactly right so the organization still exists still... Yeah, so now they do their shit in India. Like I've been told, if you go to India, we're going to have you killed and all this shit. So did you have any further run-ins with that dude? Yeah, I just saw him... Well, he just got out of prison because they caught him with drugs and guns.

No, but here's the thing. I saw him maybe, I don't know, I think it was five or six years ago. And he started trying to spread rumors about me to fucking, and I was like, I was like, yo, what the fuck are you talking all this shit? He's like, I didn't say that. And I was like, yo, I was a kid when you threatened me. I said, let's walk out of this park right now. I'm challenging you.

Let's go. I know right where we could go and I will fucking beat your ass. He's like, I don't want any problems with you all right man anyway but here's the thing like you've been able to maintain your uh krishna consciousness your connection with the with you know what for you is the truth of the truth of the you know the wisdom of the bhagavad-gita vedas and like this information that was so impactful for you at that time exactly because i knew it was still the truth no matter what i don't throw the baby out with the bathwater so to speak i knew that there's there's this corruption going

on but i knew that what prabhupada came to teach was the truth the absolute truth and how he lived his life and that's the example that i saw service to others renunciation no bank account with millions of dollars in it like these other dudes everything they went against everything what Prabhupada taught but that doesn't mean that what prabhav taught is not the truth so i had that and i held on to that tightly and now all the other devotees are coming around and being like yo man you fucking was spot on with everything man like you know and yeah yeah that's i mean it's an amazing you know history lesson on sowing the seeds of destruction of your own spiritual, religious organization.

Yeah. And it's not the first time that's happened and won't be the last. It's part and parcel of human sickness. And I think it speaks to... It's so ironic because it's an organization of elevated consciousness, and yet you're butting up against the lowest vibration you can imagine. In the material world, the most— And that's the tragic thing about humanity. And I think when you sort of project out or broaden that aperture

and look at what we're seeing right now, are we still in the age of quarrel? Hell yeah. Is it the age of quarrel? But where—'s a let me just finish this thought it's it's we're not going to solve our problems through the next election cycle or you know adopting the most optimal diet or or whatever it is we are in a crisis of consciousness right and the solution lies in elevating our awareness and expanding our conscious awareness of what is happening on an individual level, on a systemic level,

across the board, right? So you can adopt, you know, the ultimate diet, whatever that may be for you. But if you're fucking crazy, and you're an asshole and, you know, you hate your spouse and, you know, you're unproductive at your job that sucks or whatever, like you're not a healthy person. And perhaps there's a lesson in elevating that awareness. Right. So I think that's really, you know, for me, when I speak to you, like that's the heart of of the power in your life experience and perspective absolutely i mean uh we are in the age of quarrel but there is a golden period for 10 000 years within the age of quarrel the kali yuga lasts uh 437 000 years we're only 5 000 years into it but we're 500 years into the golden period of awareness and consciousness and we're just starting it and what i try from the bhagavad-gita yeah well bhagavatam shri ma bhagavatam the spotless piranha uh and really uh i always try to see the glass

as half full and be positive and I'm seeing so much awareness and consciousness of people that I would have never thought 20 years ago would be getting into meditation and plant-based diet and all this great amazing stuff spirituality their own path whatever it is because it's not dogmatic my path ain't right for the next person i'm fully aware of that but i see a lot of growth that's happening in the world and that's really the only thing that's going to fix what the fuck is going on no no political agenda no food diet no nothing is going to fix what's going on it's it's going to come from each individual's what's going on it's it's going to come from each individual's like you said you're optimistic absolutely 100 i have to be and remain optimistic and work to educate the people because that's the

whole problem is the lack of access to knowledge and education because there's so much my illusion being being broadcasted to people you know just like rage against the machine one of my favorite bands that it's like what does the billboard say come and play come and play forget about the the movement and the movement to me is the movement of the revolution of consciousness so there's so many distractions in life but i see those as uh jewels on the head of the serpent you may be attracted to the razzle dazzle but when you get close to that it's the bite of death man yeah well i think new media platforms like podcasting and you know there's so much amazing information that's now available it you know there's a there's there's

too much information in general we're being bombarded with so much content that it's impossible to stay on top of everything and I think you have to be more discerning about what you let into your consciousness and your awareness yeah and perhaps most people aren't but a lot of this information is free you know it's like podcasts are free you know anybody who's, I guess you have to have a device to listen to it. So there's that. But I think we're in an interesting place where we do have the ability to cross this socioeconomic divide that I think has been problematic in recent years that has been promoting this message that these ideas, whether it's wellness, diet, nutrition,

plant-based or otherwise, meditation, mindfulness, that these are luxuries of the well-heeled. These are elitist ideals. That's great if you got a six-figure income or whatever, but I'm just trying to get through the day, right? I'm working two jobs, all of this sort of thing. And I think what's so powerful about your example and how you live your life and the way that you're of service is that for you it's all about blowing up that idea and making these ideas practices habits accessible to the people who need it the most yeah i mean um that's my story in a nutshell too you know i didn't have the luxury of all this stuff and i just see that this whole even the plant-based and vegan movement it's like you know you go to these it's like the people that really need it the most they can't afford 30 25 to go into a veg fest and you know all this food and

all the access to this stuff and and go even if they could they probably wouldn't it's not where they're going well you know the whole thing is is it comes down to the value system that's uh they've been subjected to their whole life what's important and i mean i'm i'm doing this documentary now and it's it's really about that whole thing of uh when people grow up in their surroundings and circumstances you can't remove their surroundings just like what my surroundings were that led me to get incarcerated and led me to be a drug addict and let you know it's it's not um passing the buck and not taking responsibility for my own actions because I do. But it's just, you know, the surroundings and sets of circumstances that I've encountered with these individuals that I'm working with in this documentary,

which, you know, we can get into it. It's un-fucking-believable what's happened to these people. So you could say, hey, this guy did such and such crime and got away for 20 years, and it's nice to categorize that person and put him on the shelf. But let's open that fucking book up, and let's see what really went down. Oh, wow. He was abused and molested as a child. His mother turned her back on him and didn't care. The father died. They put him in a foster home. He was abused and molested as a child. His mother turned her back on him and didn't care. The father died. They put him in a foster home.

He was more abused. He became very angry. Anybody trying to do anything to him. Well, if you do a forensic analysis on every person who becomes a violent offender, you're going to be able to identify all the steps, all the things that occurred, all the abuse, suffered, et cetera, that led to creating that individual, that human being. And we have a penal system that is becoming more and more privatized with built-in incentives

to keep more and more people incarcerated for longer and longer without enough redress or interest in developing the rehabilitative side of it. That's got completely lost in the system, and it's broken. It's not about education. It's about warehousing. And what really fired me up to get involved with this documentary and reach out to paul was uh paul the gelder right with several factors and the one was i saw this movement that i've been involved with since before any of these people becoming more of an elitist kind of thing this plant-based movement and the fucking vegan shit and whatever the fuck and not reaching out to the people that needed the most. And the other thing was I saw the documentary 13th.

Right. And knowing Noah Levine and the work he's done writing Dharma Punks and going into the prisons and doing the Buddhist ministry and reading articles in Satcha Magazine that said, you know, but on these inmates, if I had access to this knowledge, I would not be where I am. So all of that lit a fucking fire under my ass. And I'm like, I need to do something to try to get out there and show these people that what worked for me can work for anybody.

This is, you know, it's blueprint on on how to do it and i never forget because um i remember that back in the day i was doing drugs and drinking and doing all this crazy shit and and hr from the brains just said come out on this 30-day tour you come out on this 30-day tour and you stay off the drugs and you meditate you eat and you're gonna see in 30 days you're gonna see that your life is gonna change and I was like

I went out on the tour and after 30 days I was like my fucking life changed so that's where the concept but also you had somebody who took an interest in your life mentor the first time that somebody had or if if not the first time one of the few people who'd ever said like look i can see something in this guy like i'm gonna i'm gonna take him under right i mean how much of it is that and how much is it the actual practices right just just the, the sense that there's somebody out there that even if it's just on a limited basis, like, actually cares enough to, like, ask me to come.

It's so important, man. And I'm going to tell you, that's where the title came from, 30 to Life. But we sat down, myself and Paul, when we first met the 12 parolees that are involved in this documentary and we sat in a room and we told them our story and where we came from and then they started going around and telling their story and the one brother and he was in he was in the worst prisons, man, and he did hard motherfucking time that we can't even imagine. He was in just the worst places you never want to go. And he just broke down crying because he's like, this is the first time I can't believe somebody cares about me enough to come in here and do this and mentor and help us like this. This is, you know, and it got me emotional too because, and even today,

I was working with one of the brothers and he writes lyrics and poetry. And I told him I'm going to send Dante Ross, the vice president of Warner Brothers Records. He signed all these hip-hop dudes in the 80s he's famous and i told him he's coming in next week to talk to you and his writings and poetry it was just like it was all his pain and suffering coming out and and it was you know he just was so unbelievably moved that we're there mentoring him. And then this other brother, John, he's 70 years old, man. And he's like, I can't believe. And I've seen him in passing today.

He's like, I can't believe what y'all is doing for us, man. Imagine, you know, and I'm sure you can imagine what it must feel you're walking around with has to be self-defeating and has to, you know, at some point, you know, be one of hopelessness. And so to enter that equation and say, hey man, I'm going to take an interest in you, like it seems like a small thing and it's so massive. You know, we should just say for people that are listening john and paul de gelder who's been on the podcast if you haven't listened to my episode with him you should definitely check that out guy like is an inspiration you know beyond words you're the one who first introduced me to him guy survived a bull shark attack he lost his arm he lost his leg and one

of the most positive dudes you're ever going to meet. And his life is completely all about service. He just did a week on Shark Week, so probably a lot of people saw him on that. But you're the one who introduced me to him. He came on the show. He was unbelievable. And you guys teamed up with Kip Anderson from What the Health and Cowspiracy, and you're creating this documentary where you're taking these 25 parolees. Well, it's 12.

Oh, 12, okay. Paroles, recently released dudes. Yeah. And they're all living in this place called, it's called Amity House. Amity Foundation. Amity Foundation, right. Downtown LA. And you're kind of putting them through this boot camp experience, right?

Like a spiritual boot camp. They're going on a plant-based diet for 30 days. We have meditation workshops training uh they're training for a 5k paul the elder's taking him skydiving there's uh uh nfl player um i'm just spacing on his name right now has been doing yoga and meditation workshops with them so it's you know they've been going to uh farm sanctuaries to to meet animals we showed them what the health um it's just all this stuff and these dudes have come so far and we're only 15 days into it and they're like it's it's like the fucking light came on and the older

dude is his name is john man he's so full of fucking wisdom and his story is insane he was a kid as both his parents were fucking murdered and his uncle took him in and he sold him into slavery in the fields of fucking of of the Carolinas to work on plantations and fucking dude he worked seven days a fucking week 365 days a year man he was exploited bad shit happened to him and he has so much fucking knowledge everything he says he waits and you see him really think it out and then he speaks and it's it's epic man it's like it's been the most and i've been back and forth from New York because I'm dealing with other stuff too but the time I've got to spend with these people

this thing is fucking and it's setting a a a like the pilot for a program like this for the rest of the country and I kept telling these people like yo you guys are pioneers man people are going to look to this and be like wow this is the change that's necessary you have to change people from within and all i did was take the process that worked for me and it was a deep deep deep search inward to fix the fucked up me and that's what i even wrote about in the in the pma effect i'm not cured i'm i'm i'm still a work in progress i'm still fucking every day i told this dude today i said yo just the other day i knew this dude had kilos of cocaine and i was like fuck it i could like my mind just do this thought fucking wash through my brain real quick you could take that cocaine

imagine all the freebasing you quick you could take that cocaine imagine all the freebasing you could do with all that cocaine like that thought actually manifested in my fucking enemy mind yeah i i mean i i get that you know i entertain crazy thoughts like that all the time like once an addict always an addict yeah you know so you have to be you have to be vigilant you have to be well i i told to be vigilant in your daily practice. Well, I told these— They're blessings, though. They're little reminders. Absolutely.

They make you—because if you forget where you came from, you're likely to go back. If you don't remember your past, you're doomed to repeat it, right? So that's—it's just been a blessing to me to work with these guys and offer them opportunities. And many of them have dreams to do certain things. And it's just like they don't have access to that knowledge or a way to get that done. And that's what we're trying to do. Whether it's chefs coming in there and saying,

hey, man, if you want to get trainers that are like, yo, you could get an NASM certification and make six figures a year training people or whatever it is that they want to do have a dream and go after it and that's that's kind of what we we've been instilling in these men you know you should have do you are you still looking for mentors to go and talk to these sure yeah I mean just get you should get George Raveling you know George Raveling I had him on the podcast um you should You should listen to this episode

that I did with him. Legendary African-American basketball coach, like one of the greats of all time, who has become this extraordinary mentor to young people. Like he's just revered in the NBA and in college basketball. One of the great all-time guys. And he's also this huge civil rights activist. He was standing, when also this huge civil rights activist he was standing when he was a young dude he was standing right next to martin luther king when he delivered his i have a dream speech and after the speech martin luther king handed him the paper with the speech written on it and he has it he's an incredible guy he's in his 70s can we reach out oh yeah i'll reach out

I saw him please do I saw him recently they will fucking bring him in in a second to talk to these people I'm sure he'd be up for it

tell him man tell him you know reach out I'll put him in touch with Kip and the producer that would just

fucking be amazing how's the how's the plant based diet going over with these dudes they fucking love it because we have this chef he's cordon bleu he has uh sir he came and cooked us dinner on our anniversary last time you were over here he has not believable repeated a dish twice in the whole fucking time that he's been cooking now the other talk about seva that guy's level like his service consciousness is off the charts.

Dude, he came down here on his own dime, packed up his car. He fucking works. He works 14 hours a fucking day. Now they want to give him a job there because he helps clean up the whole kitchen. He works with the chefs. We're never going to find a guy like this. Dude, he's like an amazing, amazing uh amazing dude man jay um and he was a chef that's how he met kip he did pop-up plant-based pop-up things in san francisco and

kip went to one of them and he's like yo bro you're a fucking amazing cook and then uh they said we want to do something with you down the road. And Kip was talking about opening up a plant-based pizzeria. And then he called Jay. And Jay thought, he's like, I got this project. And he's like, what, the pizzeria? He's like, no, I'm doing this film. I want you to come down. And it manifested out of there.

But the guy's so humble. And his service attitude is just, I mean, I'm just looking at the guy and i'm like wow man you're fucking you're the real deal you're the real fucking deal you have compassion now the other inmates who are who are paroled to the they're not inmates they're parolees they're seeing the food and they're like yo man yo vegan power like fucking can i get crazy can i get i want to get plates of that stuff so now he's having to cook for he makes extra food for the other guys who want it now because they're seeing the films and it's there's something about as as sort of you know out there as it may sound

and i know you're on the same page with me on this, you're taking these people who have lived a life of violence, you're removing the violence from their life in a very practical, material way, but by eliminating the violence on their plate, there is a spiritual impact to that. 100%. And there's a lot of people who will call bullshit on that. And that's like, you know, woo-woo or whatever.

But I had that at my, you know, I didn't come into this to live some holier-than-thou lifestyle or to save the animals. That was not my perspective. But I have found in the 11 years that I've been doing this, that I have grown into a, you know, a perspective of Ahimsa that kind of surprised me, you know, and I think there is something about, you know, cleansing your life of not just practices and foods and things like that. There's there's a there's a there's a

cleansing aspect to that and so my question really is like is that something that you can see evident in the like how long have these guys been doing this 15 days yeah it's only it's been two weeks yeah and and they begin first of all they're getting their blood work back and one of the guys who was one of the guys is in remission of cancer he has cancer and his and the other guys uh you know they've been eating prison food man it's the worst shit you could ever imagine they have all kinds of health problems and now the dude told me today he's like the doctor is like yo you know and it was saying like your your health and everything is turning around like we're seeing because they're doing blood work on the guys. So not only is the health turning around, they're grasping the message.

Because that's the first thing I said. I learned it from Rastafarians. And Rastafari literally means Prince of Peace. So when I first was told about this thing, it was like, we don't have the right to kill these animals and do this shit that we're doing to these animals. That is affecting your consciousness. And one of the things I even said on the back of Meat is for Pussies,

it says that I credit removing the violence from my plate being the catalyst for change in my entire life something clicked when i abstained for 30 days from animal flesh something clicked in my consciousness man it was it was you know it was removing that karma from my life and you know imagine the the pain and suffering and i and i i've been saying this a lot too because now i have a dog and we rescued his pit bull he's fucking amazing and you look in this dog's eyes man just like your beautiful dogs here there's a soul there man there's consciousness the dog feels love the dog feels pain and it's made me more of a fucking warrior to to stop and spread the message of what we're doing to these animals on this planet and i was just in

europe and we would be passing the the pig trucks and this truck and that truck yeah i saw you posted about oh my god it's fucking fucked me up man i was like you know you look in the eyes in the fear there and you realize that in a few hours that living entity that being is no longer going to be alive because some motherfucker wants to eat a fucking sausage we we're going to destroy the life and we have incarcerated that animal we've created a holocaust for the animals on this planet. We've actually turned this planet into a... Prabhupada said we've turned this planet into a hellish planet for the animals. And that's what we're doing.

And we don't have a right to do that to these animals. And I speak from my own experience. You could call it hippie bullshit or whatever the fuck you want. But I'm telling you right now, some of the baddest, toughest motherfuckers that I've ever fucking come in contact in my life, when they went and they abstained from the animal shit, the light switch came on. This ain't hippie shit. This is real shit that we're talking. The Ahimsa is real shit.

And when you come from a life of violence and seeing people's throats get cut in front fucking shot and murdered in front of you in prison and all this shit that myself and these guys have personally witnessed saying Quentin and fucking they've been in the worst prisons man you know Pelican Bay and fucking like just every fucked up place Chino every place you could possibly imagine that is hell on earth. And then you're telling these dudes, look, man, remove the violence from your life completely. You're in this program, but you're still ingesting violence and you're surrounding yourself by violence because you're responsible because you're eating that.

You're part of the karmic chain of that animal and that animal. because you're eating that, you're part of the karmic chain of that animal. And that animal, and Prabhupada said, anyone who grows the animal, anyone who transports the animal, anyone who kills the animal, anyone who cooks the animal, and anyone who eats the animal gets the karma. And from my own personal experience, I know that to be the truth. Like, I don't want to have a hand in that so at the same time you know it's worth it's worth mentioning or recognizing that that you know ahimsa this this idea this this ideal of of of avoiding harm

is is just that it is an ideal like none of us are karma-free. No. I know that you don't look at yourself as any better than anybody else or stand on a podium or anything like that. And just by virtue of us existing, we're contributing on a karmic level to problems, no matter what you're ingesting, right? So it's really about like how can I reduce that? Yeah, it's reducing reducing just like you're reducing your your your your carbon footprint you want to reduce your karmic footprint you know you can't

stop the killing there's bacteria in your stomach that you're eating food that's killing the bad bacteria so you know it's that's the material world one living entity is food for the next there's always gonna for whatever's being born it's gonna it's gonna you know you're born you grow you produce some offspring you dwindle and you die that's that's the material world in a nutshell that's what's happening but where you what you do between birth and death that's up to you to take the proper action and say hey man you know i'm gonna live this life that's gonna be more conscious and aware of what i'm doing and not just be this blind consumer you know consuming these products and sucking up this shit that's oozing out of the fucking tv with

this politics and that's why i said yeah it's become the divided states of America and that's what these people are doing now it's like they know what the fuck time it was to be electing this guy Trump and all this shit and divisiveness that's gone that's going on in this it's sick and those labels in those walls exist even with people's diets and people's religions and people's everything that's why it says that one swami said about prabhupada that he built a house that the whole world could live in peacefully because what are the principles tell some other assholes moved into it yeah and fucked it up yeah some squatters they had to get kicked the fuck out. But let's talk about service a little bit. Like you're somebody, I mean, you're really an inspiration to me for the level, you know, the service aspect of your life is really the priority

of everything you do, right? And that really, like I've watched you over the years and time and time again, I've seen you as somebody who's had opportunities to kind of order to ensure that your priority of being of service is always first and foremost intact. Whether that's the soup kitchens that you do or whatever it is, bro. Like this documentary. Like everything that you do is about that is about helping people. And, and I'm interested in like your perspective on, on how, like, what I know is that people that, that live in that place, which is a place I aspire to live in more are, are the people that ultimately not only have the biggest impact on, on the world in a positive way Well, I shouldn't say always but I see the impact of that, but they're also the most

purpose driven fulfilled and the happiest All right, I have to say You know That's true. I mean my happiness is not derived from getting the next thing or you know and i i wrote about this in this book i i said that somewhere along the line i realized that having a lot of shit ain't what brings you happiness because i never had nothing and i've given what i did make when i had it i gave it away and my mom she couldn't

understand when i took 150 000 that i had saved up and opened up the yoga center and then maintained it for 10 years you know spending probably close to half a million she's like you could as a non like it's a non-profit right yeah i didn't get anything as a matter of fact i did the construction in the place too on at 93 saint marks and then i just turned over the key and i was kind of like the protector of the place making sure nobody came there and fucked with it or did anything what's known as like the temple commander i just made sure nobody fucked around and did anything stupid. And when people came in there and misbehaved, they got a warning. And then the

next time it's like, all right, motherfucker. But the point is my mother was like, you could have had a house. You could have had all. And I'm like, ma, this is what I want you to do. I want you to come to the Sunday feast and I want you to meet the people that this place is helping and the family that we've developed with the community and all these beautiful people that have gotten off drugs

and overcome horrible shit by doing what I did with the Bhakti Yoga. And this is the place that they're learning it and they're healing. So she came to the Sunday feast and she's like, now I understand. She was like, this is the most fucking beautiful thing that these people are changing their lives. You're helping so many people.

And I'm like, there's a lot of people living in big mansions man and they're miserable people and they have no love and and all their friends are there to fucking here there's a lot of them around here yeah we pass some places but you know everyone's sponging off them and they don't know who to trust are they after my money it's like if you're my friend i know you're my friend because you're my friend i ain't got shit to give you only thing i could give you is my time and and my service and try to help you you're not my friend because you could get something from me materialistically that's i don't have that to offer and you know i you know when it comes it comes i'm not attached to it either way the bhagavad-gita says you have

the right to the work you don't have the right to the results of the work that's not what you're supposed to concentrate and meditate on but the happiness of the service that I've done ever over over since I learned about it in 81 and started my journey I wouldn't trade it for the fucking world if you said to me yo you can go back and i'm gonna give you fucking 10 million dollars i wouldn't take it and that's the god's honest truth i've turned down tv shows and all kinds of shit because it's not along the lines of my core values and what what i see as important so my happiness is not derived from uh you know it's derived from service that and what's interesting is that that that's very punk rock it is it's not selling out you're not supposed to sell out that's the ethics of punk rock but too many motherfuckers did sell out everybody could

talk to talk but guess what what does McKee say true characters revealed under pressure and when that money came dangling in front of people's faces you saw a lot of people change and take off one uniform and put on another this ain't a motherfucking uniform for me that's why even back in the day I said this ain't about fashion and clothes and how you look. Some of the most punk rock motherfuckers I ever met don't look like a punk rocker. Punk rock is a spirit, man. It's a fucking consciousness. It's like, fuck the man. It's about us, the people.

And how do we help people? You know, you can't just, and that's one of the things I always said about punk rock. I'm like, it ain't enough to just fucking complain about something and bitch about it. How do we fix it? And that's where... That's not punk rock. Punk rock is more like anarchy, like blow it up, right? They're not big on solution.

Yeah, well, that was what I was finding. But then I was seeing people like the Bad Brains and Krass who started organic plant-based communities and fucking this and that and like you started hearing about other people and chrissy hein and what's she into and she's into vedic stuff and and all these different people and even the guy from the dam captain sensible was vegan and like all of this you you saw an underlying spirituality in the punk rock movement. And a lot of people in the movement, like I said, when I was getting down with this shit in 81, 82, there wasn't too many aware, conscious punk rockers.

A lot of them motherfuckers laughed that I stopped eating meat and that I would go to the Krishna temple and meditate and go do yoga. I mean, they would say to my face. Well, there's a straight edge movement within punk, but that was later, right? That came later. And that was part of the whole kind of judgmental. They didn't come at people on the same level. They came at people thinking they were superior to everybody else.

And that's why everybody hated that fucking movement. And that's why everybody hated that fucking movement. And that's why everybody hated the fucking vegan movement. Because they didn't come out of compassion. A lot of people just were like, I have this knowledge that makes me superior to you. I'm even going to fucking talk down to you like I'm better than you. And I think that's changed a lot now. Because more and more conscious people are getting into this for the right reasons like I said I see it as a positive thing and a lot of

those people's voices uh got silenced as a matter of fact I've seen a lot of them go back to eating meat and and and uh and leaving punk rock and straight edge and going back to do drugs and all kinds of shit. So when you get into something for the wrong reasons, that's not going to sustain. Your values and your desire will always be tested in life, whatever the fuck you pick up and decide to attach yourself to. That's why I don't put any of them labels on myself. I know what my ultimate service is.

It's Bhakta Yoga. Well, that sanctimony doesn't help anybody yeah you know and I think when somebody's coming from that perspective or you can feel that vibe where they're they're they're rolling up with a level of uh you know superiority around whatever idea it is whether it's veganism or or whatnot um that's not attractive and it doesn't work. And usually it's a reflection of the pain that that person is carrying around or their need to adhere to a certain ideology or belong to a particular tribe in order to feel safe and okay in the world.

So it really speaks more about that person than anybody else. But ultimately, it's not in service to greater humanity because it's preventing people from accessing ideas that might be helpful to them. And what I love about you is this devotion to transcending the label and rolling up on people from a perspective of compassion and non-judgment. And that's a higher, that's an elevated perspective. That's how I aspire to communicate with people. You do it. And ultimately, that is giving you the better chance of being able to connect with another human being in a very real way. And ultimately, that's the only way you're ever going to be able to communicate a message that will be potentially helpful to them in a real way. Yeah, absolutely.

potentially helpful to them in a real way yeah absolutely i mean uh you know even in this place where i'm at with these guys like society looks down on them and have treated them in this program uh you know society looks down on them as as as trash and if you saw 13th the documentary they replaced the word slave with criminal. See, it's the whole thing. It's still that slave mentality that they can label them as criminal. And it's like, okay, now we don't have to give a fuck about these people. They're criminals. The depersonalization of the whole thing.

Yeah, that's exactly what it is. It's like, don't even treat them as humans. They're fucking criminals. And they're trying to do away with this whole thing too now. saw that about i think it's called the block box the box campaign or whatever to remove it's to remove off the job applications that they've been convicted of a crime it's happening in california there's a big push for that right now and so you don't have to disclose that you're yeah and i think that that's true because yo if you paid your debt to society and you did the time why should you continuously

be punished these guys can't even get jobs not that they should at mcdonald's just to show you or a fucking janitor or whatever it's like somebody has to give a fuck enough about human beings to say, hey, man, I'm willing to take a risk on you and let you come and, you know, work at my establishment. And, you know, I have to say that, you know, I give props to Tal Ronan because Crossroads, you know, he never judges anybody, man, whether they did a crime or whatever. He treats them like family. Fucking, you know, it's like there's so much love going on in that restaurant. And I think above the food being amazing, I think it's really because of the love that exists. When you go in that kitchen, man, these guys are like, they fucking love Tal. And just knowing that dude dude he's so real and

genuine and he really means it and and and gave guys a second chance and i i think seeing the humanity in people man even though we you know they might have made fucking pretty bad mistakes but anybody can change and that's the whole thing you know anybody can and the system needs to change exactly you uh you listen to my episode with with john mcavoy fuck yeah listen that shit was fucking and what he's doing now what that guy has has holy shit it started with i mean there was a lot of internal drive on his part but it was sparked by a prison guard who took an interest in him when he didn't have to there you go the guy would show up on his days off and come in and work with him with the rowing and right and showed an interest like yo this guy

gives a fuck about me and he's not trying to get anything from me he's fucking he honestly cares he sees something these people have been made to have no value they don't value themselves so when somebody else comes in and says hey man you have value man like it it just and at first you have to overcome the the the guarded skepticism skepticism because that person's going to be like, what's your angle? Like, no one's ever rolled up on me like that. So it's like, hey, man, where are you coming from? It's a hustle. It's just a ticking time bomb until you're going to drop on me, whatever it is you're trying to get out of me.

Right? So you have to earn that trust over time. Like, it can't just happen with one person being nice one day. Like it can't just happen with one person being nice one day. Like you have to be committed to overcoming that hurdle in order to engender the trust in that individual that will ultimately catalyze that change. And that requires – that's a big ask. That's a big investment on somebody's part. It has to be selfless. When you see somebody do that, like that's an amazing thing.

Well, it has to be selfless too, you know. It has to – it's selfless service it's uh you know what it says even in the vedic teachings is devotional service to others has to be unmotivated and uninterrupted and that means unmotivated by you know material things other than the person's own growth and and uninterrupted if you're not seeing the result imagine you're trying to do something and and i've tried to listen i tried to help a lot of people these three kids that most of them it doesn't work they raped and murdered a woman you know and it's like it has to be on you know

unmotivated and uninterrupted meaning like sometimes you're not always going to get the result right away but you have to just keep endeavoring and endeavoring and you know the material conditioning is so heavy in this material world that you know we've been doing fucking crazy shit for this lifetime past lifetimes there's a there's a lot of conditioning that that's there and everybody's working out their karma but you know i'm even seeing it with these guys now they're trusting. When we first get in there, they were all like, yeah, what's this motherfucker's angle? What the fuck, yo? You could see the skepticism.

Now they're like, yo, Jay. They're calling me and they're fucking like, yo. They see I'm not trying to get nothing from them. I'm trying to give. This whole process'm trying to give you know this move this whole process 30 to life is about giving and the story of john mcavey man and what he's doing now because now i follow him on social media and he's going he's getting standing ovations for right when he gives these talks yeah he went and spoke at the house of Commons right after we did the podcast. And that video like went crazy viral. And I got up the morning of Ironman Hamburg because I was like, how's he doing?

Right? Because that was his big race. And as you know, they had to cancel the swim on that. Yeah, because of the allergy. Because of freaking the allergy from the runoff and whatever bullshit is going on there. So it was going to be this duathlon. And I log into the Ironman website wanting to see how he's progressing. And he hadn't even started yet.

And I was like, what's going on? Something's wrong. So I DM'd him and he said, yeah, there was a fuck up. His parole officer had the wrong dates for the Ironman and he couldn't go to the race because they screwed up some paperwork over it so he couldn't travel because he can't travel yeah doing a whole bunch of bullshit well i'm finding that with this program now we're trying paul's trying to get him skydiving and the parole officers have not it's out of their zone

where they can travel to because they're like you know wearing the fucking monitors and shit so it's out of their zone where they can travel to because they're like you know wearing the fucking monitors and shit so it's like it's a whole thing you know to uh to get the clearance from the parole officers and you know it's tough yeah so he trains for this race this is his big race for the year and then like i don't know when he found out how many days in advance but then it's like yeah sorry you can't do that you know so he's got another race he's signing up to do but like the the bigger point being like look what that guy has done with his life amazing and that is that is you know he he wasn't walking around with pma from day one like that guy had to evolve into a perspective where now he can be this beacon of light right and it's so powerful because

not only is that story just beyond belief like it's just insane like it's so cinematic movie whereas a movie uh when he was telling it on the podcast i'm like holy shit like you see the scenes you're like there's no way right um and that gives him the gravitas like the weight the power right to be able to speak to these issues and the fact that he is committed to prison reform um you know that's his version of your service and when you see paul de gelder committing his life to to shark preservation and the preservation of the oceans when it's the ocean you know it is the shark covers three quarters of the planet you know and yeah and it's the shark he's protecting that which thing changed his life exactly and i saw him say i don't know that i would want my limbs back

you know i think it was on your podcast that he said that if somebody said you can have your leg and your arm back i wouldn't take it i mean it's unbelievable and you know that he means it so the question for you is why like why do you do all this um first of all i have to say that it's a degree of selfishness in that it's how good it makes me feel to help other people genuinely feel how good it is. And going out on the food line and feeding people plant-based meals and having these conversations with people and, and, and helping people in everybased meals and having these conversations with people and helping people and every day writing letters to people and getting people. I mean, every day I get 20 to 30 fucking emails

on social media or my email. I'm gonna read you one right now. I don't wanna interrupt you, but I'm gonna read you an email that came in that you got, but it also was sent to me. Can I do this? Yeah. All right.

I'm not gonna say the person's name, but it goes like this. Hey, Rich, I also sent sent to me. Can I do this? Yeah. All right. I'm not gonna say the person's name, but it goes like this. Hey Rich, I also sent this to John Joseph. Couldn't find your direct email, blah, blah, blah. I wanted to reach out personally because of the impact you and John have had on me over the last few years.

Here's the email in its entirety. Rich and John, I just wanted to say thank you for the impact you've had on my life over the last few years. I have ulcerative colitis and struggled for the better part of 10 years with flare-ups and hospitalizations. I was lucky to avoid surgery, but that didn't mean I had a good quality of life. Eventually, I went on a drug that cost $25,000 a year. It's known to cause cancer in some patients, but to me, it outweighed the higher risk of colon cancer due to chronic

inflammation. During this time, about three years years ago i was also trying to make positive changes in my life to try to get off this cancer causing drug while i was thankful for the effects of pharmaceutical intervention intervention played on my symptoms i was also aware that blah blah blah canada had the highest ibd rates counties like japan and china had very few uh da-da-da-da-da. I listen to audiobooks and podcasts frequently. I was listening to Finding Ultron Audible. I interjected it with an episode where Ben Hobbs interviewed John Joseph. It led me to JJ's interview with Rich.

The rest of the podcast didn't take long before I was convinced that a plant-based diet was my only option. I struggled at first, but eventually came around. And after three or four months, I was nearly 100% plant-based. My goal only option. I struggled at first, but eventually came around. And after three or four months, I was nearly a hundred percent plant-based. My goal was just to increase fiber intake, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba.

Basically it cured his ulcerative colitis, essentially. His doctor said he'd never seen such a wild turnaround. And that the only cases where he saw this kind of healing were mild cases with very few flare-ups. He goes on and on and on, and he refuses to say he's cured. It's still too early. The disease is complicated. But he's basically found freedom, you know,

and it's through your message, dude. And I know you get emails, and I'm not reading this to, like, butter you up or to be self-congratulatory. Like, it's just powerful, dude, and I will echo your sentiment. And I'm not reading this to like butter you up or to be self-congratulatory. Like it's just, it's powerful, dude. And I will echo your sentiment. Like there's nothing better than getting an email like that. You help somebody's life.

That you're helping somebody in a very real way. And it's just words on a computer screen. But, you know, not for that dude. No, that's fucking years of pain and suffering that's in that email and you know the thing that was told to me is like how do when i ask my teachers how do i repay you they just said teach the next person in line pay it forward and that's that's really what it's all about and when i say that in a selfish way i mean that the joy that's derived from helping people, it's incredible. And it's not that I'm trying to have this Jesus complex or any fucking stupid shit like that. Because I try to always turn it back on them.

And I say, yo, I put the information out there but you sir ma'am you did the work you get the kudos not me all I did was like this guy he did the he changed the work you know how and I wrote about you in my new book and I was like do you know what it fucking took for you to kick alcohol and do all the stuff that you did the intestinal fortitude that that took to change your diet and do and do you know um the ultras you've done and do uh the epic five and you know constantly being put under pressure you know is the revelation of true character who the fuck you really are and you know to me it's like to get asked you know why it's the one answer that i would give is is is like we have a debt we our lives were saved your life was safe people said People helped you. Even Julie and you read all this stuff.

So many people helped me. It's like we have a debt. How the hell do we repay the fact that I didn't go to prison and get fucking killed on the streets for being a drug addict and robbing crazy motherfuckers? How do I repay that? is like how do I repay that? And the only way is to constantly, every day I wake up, I touch my head to the floor and I say my mantras

and I've done that for the last, since I ever heard about it in 81, 37 years, even in my crack period and pill period, I wake up and I touch my head to the floor, I say my mantras and i give thanks for another day on earth and now because of all the work i've done on myself i say you know send me someone to help today i'm looking for that you know to to be like let me find somebody that's and I get letters about

like dude I literally had the fucking gun in my mouth and like I got one letter like that about the lyrics in the Cro-Mags that this song I wrote malfunction and how like you know people's lives have just been helped that's the greatest you know feeling in the world that you helped somebody who was suffering because like we're living in a world where it's like people are acting like it's not cool to be compassionate and care about someone it's this it's because look at this shit that's going on with this whole fucking presidency and everything it's like fuck you separating mothers from their children and putting them in fucking camps and all this crazy shit it's like fuck you i have my political

beliefs i don't care if you're suffering all this shit that's going on we just have to pull back from that and say hey man this is a living being man this is a human being with feelings and emotion and you know can you know has the ability to do amazing things with their life like i want to fan that spark man i don't want to throw water on it i want to help whatever good look for the good the center of good in people that's what you have to look for and try to fan that spark, man. How can we make compassion cool? How can we make caring cool? We're in this age of irony.

Irony and flippant skepticism and anger and fear and a zero-sum attitude about the world. If you get this, then I don't get mine and fuck you i think it comes down to the core value system again because there's prisons filled with motherfuckers that thought that way and it's like i'm gonna get mine no matter what or you get people in the material world i'm gonna exploit everybody and get mine no matter what i don't care who the fuck they uh they step on but there has to be a spiritual awakening and spirituality is is becoming cool it's it's not and i'm not talking about the people who go to yoga class and stand on their fucking head and then they go eat fucking steak tartar and fucking

and do all this other crazy shit and fucking banging you know that's not yoga that's gymnastics there's a real spirituality to uh intense work on oneself and i think there's a lot more people uh that can smell the lie now and the hypocrisy that exists everywhere and they're looking outside of that whole system of just bullshit and the lies it's we're becoming oversaturated with bullshit it's being just pumped at us constantly on billboards and fucking we're seeing all these people even you know they they just get above people and exploit the fuck out of them all over the world and and nobody's caring and it's like i i just think like the way the way to to heal all of that is to let people find it for themselves, but point them in the direction so that they feel like they made the journey,

because ultimately they are. I just point people in the direction of the knowledge. I say, bro, go down this fucking rabbit hole and do some motherfucking research. And then I tell them, read this book this book that book go look at this documentary check this out see what this is about and then they do it and they come back and they're like yo and i just got like five messages today i've been plant-based for a month man i feel fucking great i started doing yoga like i stopped drinking like yo even me and my wife the whole our relationship's better you know and and and a lot of other things come into play too with

helping people because i'm my life is the result of like crazy shit that my father subjected my mother to so it's like a lot of these people have kids and if they don't fix their damaged cells what's gonna you're perpetuating the circle the the cycle of abuse and incarceration and everything and the similar the common denominator of a lot of these guys is broken families man how do we tighten up the family look at the beautiful things that go on in your house with your kids and how you and julie love each other and are nurturing to your kids and setting the proper example you guys set the example and that's why i keep saying examples better than precept you could talk all the shit you want about yoga and this and that motherfuckers don't care about that because there's a lot of mouthpieces out there that just

talk shit talk shit and then when you really pull back that mask and you see what the fuck is behind there that's an ugly ass person and i don't mean that on a physical i mean that inside that person is nothing that anyone's attracted to because it's all they're developing the bad qualities. It's instead of the, you know, the four agreements, they practice the four disagreements, so to speak. So, you know, look at, you know, that family, So, you know, look at, you know, that family and I think the family makeup has changed a lot too. And that's why I'm like, yo, if two women or two men want to adopt a kid and them parents fucked up and they caused that fucking kid so much pain, so what?

If those people want to love that person, why the fuck should they not be allowed to adopt kids? Like, they're going to give that kid a nurturing home. They're not looking to do, you know, and that's the thing that these homophobic people and all these people, they're like, oh, yeah, who knows what they want to do with. It's like, that's your twisted fucking brain. You are projecting well who was it that said the the the only source of self uh the when we criticize others that's the real true source of so of what you're projecting it's a window in your into your own soul i don't know who originally said but it's like you know i think the family uh structure is is uh a very important thing. It's super important.

I want to talk about... I want to ask one question before we jump ahead to that, because I had a question about John McAvoy. Did you get into plant-based diet with him at all? No. You didn't? No, I wasn't about that with him. I wanted to share his story, which is so powerful.

That would have been a distraction. He's not vegan know he's not vegan he's not a plant-based yeah you know i want to have that conversation with him later but it felt that would not have been appropriate yeah you know but that's what i love about you and you have people on your podcast that have amazing stories of triumph and and like that. And you put them on there regardless if they're plant-based or not. It's the story that's inspiring. Your podcast is inspiring. Dude, I got to tell you, I sat downtown,

and the last couple days, fucking, I was eating outside this vegan spot, and I had literally five people come up to me and were like, yo, man, you know, heard you on the rich roll podcast man i fucking love rich roll like i'm i'm doing triathlon now because of that shit and like like just the amount of people that you have inspired through your podcast and these inspiring people that come on and are doing amazing things i mean you, you know. Well, I appreciate that. I mean, look, man, you know, you bring the fire,

you bring the heat every time you're here. So people are connecting with you. I just, I'm like a cipher. Like I get to be the conduit so that you can share your truth more broadly. And it's a privilege and an honor to be able to, to have the platform to be able to do this. And I think to your point about kind of bifurcating these conversations, it's like, yeah, I have tons of plant-based vegan people on,

but like you said, I'm more than that. And just because somebody isn't on a plant-based diet, does that then exempt them from having an inspirational story? Of course not, that's ridiculous. Well, to the dogmatic vegans, yeah, that's why I don't fuck with them. So look at what this guy overcame.

You're gonna then judge him because he doesn't eat the way that you eat? Like to me, that doesn't make sense. It doesn't, it doesn't, I'm sorry. So he's not capable of providing you with some insight and some wisdom that can be helpful to you. I think if you're coming from that perspective, then, and, you know, I think that's, if you're coming from that perspective, you're robbing yourself of an opportunity to grow and learn. Every individual that you come across has something that you can learn from.

Absolutely. You know, like in recovery, there's that thing like, hey man, you learn as much from the people that go out as the people that stay in. Everybody carries the message one way or the other. You know what I mean? And it's up to you to be able to have the insight to figure out, okay, what can I glean from that person's experience that can be helpful for me? And there isn't a human being walking on planet earth that you can't learn from and if you're coming from a holier-than-thou perspective and think well that guy doesn't see the way the world the way that i do so you know screw him or i can't learn from him then you're the you're the you're the one who's losing out you're missing out absolutely absolutely so uh i want to talk

about the new book. But before we do that, you mentioned a couple minutes ago, like you meet these people, you try to be of service and helpful to them, and you recommend, you're like, read this book, watch this. So if you had to like write down, here's the list of things that are your most recommended books or movies what's on that list uh it's podcasts too and uh first and foremost i tell them the the documentaries uh for their diet which is obviously forks over knives what the health i tell them to check out earthlings for the compassion and conspiracy for the environment so you know those are really the top uh films that i'll tell

them uh to check out and books there's even this one i quote all the time the prophet one of the first books i read uh bhagavad-gita as it is um and the science of self-realization that was the book actually uh i even said in evolution of a crow magnum my memoir that you know if you want i'll send you this book and i've sent out thousands of copies of the book which uh you know i paid for myself bought the book shipped it paid for everything so the napoleon hill books the napoleon hill absolutely um you know there's um you know for self-help and and you know he wrote some great books. And even like the I Ching, you know. And, I mean, I've read so many, you know. You can even check out the Krishnamurti books.

I love that Ram Dass book, Be Here Now. It's just great inspirational quotes. Should I tell you a story about that? Yeah. So Ram Dass is not the guy who said, be here now. Be here now was uttered by Bhagavan Dass. So Ram Dass arrives in India.

He's searching for his guru. He's convinced he's going to find his guru. He's walking all over the place, meeting with everyone. It's like not working out. And Richard Alpert, Harvard professor is his real name yeah and he's and he's sort of dismayed and thinking well maybe this isn't where i'm

supposed to be he's starting to question why he went to india in the first place and he's about to like pack his bags and come back home and he runs into this dude who's like six seven young handsome guy with the long hair and the whole he's american but he's got like all the garb on right he's got the sandalwood on his forehead and he's barefoot and it's like 1968 or whatever it is and uh and the guy's like come on i'm gonna take you to this guru And they're walking and they're walking. And like Richard Albert, a.k.a. Ram Dass, is like, when are we going to get there, man? This is far. Like, how long are we walking?

You know, he just kept like, he was so impatient. Like, he wasn't present in the experience of this adventure. And finally, Bhagavan turned around to him and said, like, be here now. That becomes the name of the book. Ultimately, they end up at the feet of Neem Karoli Baba, who becomes, you know, who names Ram Dass Ram Dass, becomes his guru and all that whole thing. But Bhagavan, have you ever met Bhagavan? No. Because he would do kirtan at Jiva Mukti in New York, spends a lot of time in upstate New York, et cetera.

But Bhagavan married Julie and I. There's a portrait of him in the other room. Wow. I want to see that. And he's an amazing musician. And he did a Kirtan album that was produced by one of the

Beastie Boys. I think Mike D. I'm not sure. I can't remember. I think it was Yaut MCA? Well, who's the one who's the biggest yogi? That's Mike D. I think it was Mike D who lives out in Malibu. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's Mike D. Yeah. Wow, that's amazing, man. Yeah, yeah. So he was. Wow. He's a character because he's not like a guru type guy. Like you can talk to him like a normal.

He's very, you know, like he's actually pretty funny dude wow that's great i'll tell you more stories about that later but anyway all right dude let's talk about well well well well we didn't we didn't finish with that because we got to the books and the films and i also you know um but be here now is an amazing yeah there's a lot of truth in there and then you know the krishnamurti teachings but mainly i try to just i really tell people you know to pop out books and then podcasts and i have to say not just because you're sitting here i say look man go on the rich roll podcast and look at the guests and go through that there's lessons to be learned and what was the um i just sent somebody because's lessons to be learned and what was the um i just sent somebody because they were a swimmer and they were going to do this

big swim what was the woman's name and burley uh kimberly she like broke a foot and like yeah she has um she's got a disease right now wow yeah um i can't remember the name of it um right now but she's uh yeah she's incredible yeah and i told her to listen to that yeah like you know shark infested waters and like fucking and so there's always something swims you know all the different people that you had on your podcast it's like there's stories there for everybody i think it's a very powerful medium uh podcast to uh help people so that's really what i i tell people uh in a nutshell this just do the research right and people you know want to feel like they discovered it that you you just point them in the right direction and then let them uh you know and detach find their truth you gotta detach from your expectations or your attachment as to whether

anybody's gonna do it and that's that's a painful lesson that you learn in in in recovery when you're trying to help people get sober because you carry the message and you know nine times out of ten it doesn't it doesn't stick you know but you just keep doing it you keep doing it you just stay out of the results you know exactly you just keep that's exactly what it is man it's like i tried to help my nephew he's incarcerated again and then there's another kid that and i talk about this in the book they they all made fun of this kid, Matt, because he was a nice kid and a sweet kid. And they called him all kinds of fucked up names and made fun of him. Matt got an apartment.

He graduated college. He has a wife. He has a kid coming. He fucking has a job. And where are all these other dudes that made fun of him? It's not cool to be kind, right? But they're all fucking locked up up including my nephew who made fun of him because he had a little bit of a learning disability matt but he worked so hard

to cure himself for that and graduate college and i'm so proud of him he calls me uncle john it's funny because he's like this six'7", you know, black man now, but I knew him as a teenager. And, you know, people are like, they're like, Uncle John, like, you know, this fucking short white motherfucker. Like, you know, it's pretty funny, you know, but I love the kid, man. He comes to every event that I do.

He came to the last, the book thing, when we did The Meat is the Pussies oh the one downtown yeah yeah he was the fucking no the one uh in new york when we did it at um oh when i was when i was there when your mom was there yeah he was there too and then he came for the evolution right right that place in brooklyn's not there anymore yeah i know it closed down it's crazy um all right dude pma effect you got this new book coming out the pma effect are you showing it there yeah like dude you have any printed copies you could have had one sitting right here nah i don't yet uh because we just um i don't know it's going to the printer you know i read it actually you wrote the forward and you wrote it you always fuck me up man because you're so eloquent and then i gotta it's like you're like the toughest act to follow like when

it comes to writing you if i if i tried to write like you i would sound like an idiot yeah you know what i mean i can only write the way that i write yeah it's it's it's amazing the forward is amazing thank you so much man you know for for that gift and it is a gift and uh but the book is is really uh so many people are going through a lot of shit right now and i'm like i just i took all the lessons and i and i wrote you know even the homeless person you know like you mentioned had a lesson to teach me in life everybody had lessons to teach me so really i just incorporated a lot of the lessons learned and how i overcame certain things um in this world by continuously practicing uh seeing things uh from different perspectives and working through my shit and trying to keep

a positive mindset uh through all the shit that i was going through and you know four years ago a little a little under four years ago i started like you know writing stuff down and and i talk about that i have a cork board i don't know if you've been in my house and i know your writing room yeah so i pin i just kept pinning these ideas to the to the fucking wall and i'm like fuck man the pma things become such a big thing i mean you know everyone's getting the tattoos it's on bumper stickers fucking napoleon hill the bad brains even fucking uh breaking bad they you know they had a p the guy said pma in the reference yeah and one of the things they talked about pma man you better have that fucking pma like i think it was uh somebody said it's a

wall and uh i'm like there's so much to that there's so much to resiliency and the methods of pushing through shit and and how do i do that and uh you know and i said you know even in the intro i'm like yo this book comes from a place of humility i'm i'm not fixed i'm still a work in progress i'm a neophyte on the path and all i'm trying to do is be the mailman and say yo this is the stuff that i've been taught that's helped me thus far in my life and got me to where I am. And yes, I have a lot more work to do on myself, but even this book for me is a reminder because it's a lot of knowledge in there. And I even quoted him one of his quotes in the book. The prophet.

Yeah. So it was a reminder to me of work that I still need to do on myself. The work's never done. It's never done. We're all works in progress, man. And that's really what, you know, but it's all about reaching our ultimate potential and how do we do that. That's why I said how a positive mental attitude can make you the badass you were born to be because all of us were born to do great things with our lives man and it you know seeing that in every person and there's also an artist there's the unwanted things in sanskrit that we have to you know that we have to clear out of our path. It's like boulders on the path. But that's what Prabhupada said was with knowledge, those boulders become pebbles

that you can just kick away. So that's where the book was. What I love about the book is it's incredibly accessible and relatable. And there's just no getting around the fact that you're this incredibly powerful steward because of your life experience right you're standing in a place where you have the gravity to speak to this because of where you came from you know and like if people want to really hear the whole backstory of blood clot like you can listen to one of our 10 podcasts i think it's 41 or whatever way back or even you know you recapped it pretty good on rogan the other day like yeah you know conceived in rape abuse abuse abuse foster you know foster homes uh juvenile detention halls jails you know

drug dealing on the streets like just just a road nowhere. And it's just unbelievable that you were able to transcend that to live the life that you're living now. So how do you do that? Like, how does somebody go from there to here? And the fact that you took the time to extract lessons from your life and hang them on the principles that have been transformative in your journey, and then communicate them in a way that's relatable to people, I think is, you know, I keep using this word, it's powerful. You know, it's powerful, and I think it's really going to help a lot of people, man. So I commend you for writing the book. That's why I wrote it.

I wrote it because I really shouldn't be fucking sitting across from you right now. No. Because the statistics, and I had people tell me that shit, that you're just going to be another fucking dead motherfucker or you're going to be a motherfucker that spends the rest of his life in prison. But I always had this thing to prove people wrong. Because that was my problem even as a a kid was i would never let the people that hurt me know that they hurt me i would act like that shit didn't matter you're not gonna

see me fucking cry i wouldn't cry in front of them you're not gonna see me and my pain i'm gonna keep that even when my girl was like you know it's fucking unbelievable you went through all that shit. And it's like, I never knew how much that shit really affected you. Because I'm an expert at hiding my emotions and not letting... It's still one of the things I'm trying to work on now. And that's one of the things I talk about in the book is that, you know, to confront things and don't let them fester. And if, if somebody does something that I'm not happy with, or it makes me feel a certain way, I'm going to get it off my chest.

I'm not going to sit there and hold that poison in and, and, and let it fester till it, till it blows up on something. And, uh, yeah, but then i mean that's an easy example of like somebody pissed you off let's redress it immediately like or even if you up to like rectify it as quickly as possible i have a friend who calls that like if you're gonna eat crow like eat it hot you know deal with it right away but that's very different from the the compartmentalization of like the abuse that you suffered and trying to put on a happy face and be like well shit happens man pma like i'm just over it and then you're gonna walk around the lower east side and become friends with every shopkeeper that shit's still there dude yeah so confronting that like peeling back the layers like that's you know that's a process that took that took me all the way to like i said it didn't happen until i

started working on the script and then mckee and that whole thing that happened with him of him saying that you know writing about a character that was abused is the fucking cliche of the day. It's about what a character does, uh, as a result of that, that's the story. And, uh, and then he wrote in my book that he signed for me, he goes, he goes, John, always write the truth. And, you know, it was about admitting and coming clean on what happened to me. And like I said, it took so much work. And, you know, there's the false ego that's there like, yo, you're this fucking whatever. Like, you know, you've been through all this shit.

You're so fucking iron tough and whatever the fuck and you know fantasies we have in our own mind which is all false ego that has to be stripped away and stand there naked in the fucking you know like at the end of the earth and just be like you know i gotta confront this and and uh it took it took decades and forgive forgive and forgive yourself well you know i i mean and i'm not over all of that forgiveness too because i went back to that peep them people's houses and i it wasn't it i wasn't able to forgive like even the two dudes that were doing that shit to me i was like that's the first thing i said where are they yeah and i don't know went back to that foster home right i don't know what

i would have done i haven't reached a point where i could be do you think that you can get to that place and if you could i would have to get it off my I have to I would have to because it's causing you suffering yeah you know that of course it is

because I still have that thing where like I've learned through the writing of this book though believe it or not this has been very therapeutic for me because like you know

it had to remind me of this stuff so I let a lot of other shit go, but I know that that's something, that's part of the work that still needs to be done. But there's a part of me that still, I can't remove myself from the street person and the fucking dude who has to tell motherfuckers what time it is.

Yeah, there's an identity. On some level, there's an attachment to that identity, right? Of course. And there's an identity you're on some level there's an attachment to that identity right like and there's an ego there's an ego aspect of that i would be fucking so it's like when you say the work's never done it's like okay now i'm gonna look at that right yeah and it's like that's the one thing everything else is i've been able i forgave my mom i actually forgave my father like i you know i forgave certain bandmates who did the fucking most grimy shit to me who was supposed to be my friend. Don't hold no grudges.

I don't give a fuck. But that's the one thing that I'm like, that still kind of haunts me to this day is ever running into them because they took advantage of me and they were bigger than me know that still kind of haunts me to this day is ever running into them because like you know they took advantage of me and they were bigger than me and now i'm like you know it's kind of like that sleepers thing if you saw that movie when the fucking and like dude i i get so fucked up when i see that scene every time that shit comes on because i'm like you know I understand I could I I understand

that whole situation what that dude did to them and and now they're in the position of putting fear into that person's you know

Kevin Bacon until he got shot I can't remember it's been so long since I've seen that movie but as I recall it like they went to the

bathroom they were in a bar and uh yeah and he went as he went downstairs they got out of prison and all this shit they were these tough irish hooligans and shit and then he goes down to go to the bathroom and he sees him there and he fucking gets down he knows the priest that abused all no it was it was the warden kevin bacon was one of the guys that worked at the boys home he was one of the cops that worked there so then he was eating in the diner right because all those guys had been in that boarding house together yeah and then when he comes back upstairs he goes and tell his friend he's like you're not gonna believe who's look who's fucking sitting over there so they both went over there and sat across from him and he's like can i help you he's like take a look at me you you remember me and he's looking he's like

told him like yo the boarding home and he's like oh yeah i remember you fucking little pricks and it was just like you know he had no forgiveness and And that's what I think, well, I'll lose my shit if they don't fucking just straight up and come out, like, saying, apologizing. Then it could get ugly because that's what I'm looking for. And it's not going to, you know, be any sense of forgiveness. But you know that the spiritual jujitsu is for you to forgive them without an expectation of anything in return.

I know, but that's part of the work. I'm not at that point yet. And it's just, you know, it's a traumatic situation that's still going to require work on my part. You know, that's more of the growth that has to take place. And I know that that's still, you know, when more of the growth that has to take place and i know that that's still you know when i did ben hobbs podcast man i fucking all of this shit my friend dying right before the race fucking oh and then him my brother fucking you know in a coma when i went to

do kona the first time and then like you know know, thinking of all that and what was done to us has been a part of my brother's addiction problems that he can't face. And then, you know, he just asked this question and I lost my shit on the podcast. I was like sobbing for like, you know, 10 minutes and I couldn't talk. You know, it was fucked up. But a lot of people heard that and were like, yo, including Tony, what is his name? Chris Lieto? No, O'Donnell.

Oh, Tim O'Donnell? Tim O'Donnell. No, O'Donnell. Oh, Tim O'Donnell? Tim O'Donnell. Uh-huh. He saw me when I went to the Iron Man Foundation thing where they showed the thing in New York. He's like, bro, that was like one of the most fucking intense moments.

But it's not acting. It's still raw. And when I see what my brother, now my brother's been clean for 40 days now. Oh, wow. That's new. He got his 30-day coin. That's pretty good. So, you know, there's a lot of people out there who was helped by the evolution of a Cro-Magnon and write me.

And I think that this is the next phase in that because we all go through shit and i said even if this book saves one human life how can we put a value on that then every fucking minute of everything i spent on that book is worth it but i think it's going to help a lot more people because there's serious life lessons to be learned there and how we deal with trauma and how we push past and how it's not just about success and making it and fucking becoming like all that bullshit don't matter to me it that's not what this book is talking about is is talking about how do we heal the hurt how do we push past obstacles in our life how do we push past fear you know and even talking with you and and all the other people it's like i ask those questions all the time because i'm trying to learn i'm still trying to learn and i

said how even when i asked you questions and I wrote about it in a book, like, you know, how do we keep growing? And you said, face something you fear all the time. Do something that challenges you. Face your fears. Remember when you gave? Yeah, I didn't make that up, by the way. No, I know.

But I'm saying you delivered the message just like you were the mailman you delivered that message and that's what I'm doing here and the little lightning bolt there that's a nod to the Bad Brains yeah because their first album it was the lightning bolt coming down striking the capital

so it's uh what I like about that is is that it's, you know. Well, what I like about that is that it's getting at the root of how you grow and how you evolve into the best version of yourself. You know, most books of this ilk, of this genre, it's like how to make a million dollars, how to like network or shit like that. It's like, they're missing the big picture. It's like how to make a million dollars, how to like network or shit like that.

It's like they're missing the big picture. It's like you can go out and set a goal and I can tell you how to achieve that goal. But if you wanna know if your goal is the right goal for you, you better start investing in yourself in the real hard work that is internally focused in order for you to answer that for yourself. And that's not as sexy. That's the messy kind of ephemeral process that I think is fundamentally required if you want

to create the best foundation for living the life that is sort of like accessing your best blueprint for yourself. But it's hard to talk about that stuff. And it comes in all different shapes and forms, depending upon your spiritual perspective and what you believe and don't believe. But I think you did a really beautiful job of like exploring that in a way that is very inviting

and like I said earlier earlier like accessible to everybody yeah thank you i mean coming from you that that uh it means a lot and that's what i tried to um do in this book there's something for everybody um you know from the hardcore people to the you know whoever like uh make it accessible man and um just relate my journey and um help people who might be going through you know similar stuff i told the guys in the program every that i'm working in the documentary dirty to life i said every one of you guys are getting a copy of this book and it's amazing like how smart those guys are they have degrees and they you they wouldn't be in amity foundation unless they were exemplary prisoners because that's who gets in there and they did work they got degrees and this guy was reading me this stuff not the musician another guy wants to do

a book and he was reading me this his level of fucking awareness you don't understand when you're sitting in a cell for fucking 20 years and you can't run from yourself you have to face that like I I had to do the same thing and everyone does everyone has to face themselves life is going to throw something at you no matter who you are that's how the book and if you can look at that like an opportunity well that's how the book came about everyone was i had evolution of a crow magnon and everybody was patting me on the back and saying what a great and i thought i had everything figured out and solved and life threw me that fucking 80 mile an hour curveball and said yo not so fast not so fast homie slow down you got a ways to go and that's how i look

at it now i don't try to ever see an end to the journey i'm just you know okay this set of circumstances came up today. I'm not going to project ahead or worry about it. I'm going to fucking, I'm alive today. Like my friend that died, Kevin McQuaid, he got, you know, he did time in prison. He was an addict, everything. And he told me, and I wrote about it in the book, that any any day above ground johnny that's a good fucking day and you know if i could i dedicated a whole thing to him in the book because like it just shows

even with him how fragile life really is and and the stuff you know we take for granted one of the things i said was imagine someone who had a near-death experience. The next day, how she's going to look at life. She's going to watch the birds scrambling on the sidewalk for crumbs. She's going to smell the flowers. She's going to notice the breeze blowing through the leaves. You get a whole different awareness of life by going through things. I think that's a lot of the message that the book

takes away is, um, you can take away from the book is like, there's a lot to be learned in those experiences when we learn to see it that way. Like what I thought was a curse. And I, you know, now I look at it, it's, it's, it's all about perspective and vision of how we see are we going to play the victim and i played the victim i'm guilty of it i played the victim i had all this shit done to me i fucking here's the reason why i'm nobody would begrudge you for playing and yeah of course they'd be like well he had it rough but fuck that that wasn't going to be my story I didn't let that be my story I wanted I wanted a different story I wanted a different path and that's why I keep fighting every single day and I keep reaching out to people because that's part of my service that's bhakti yoga means devotion to devotion to

Krishna devotion to others helping others it's what the path is all about. It's not about, it's about all of us getting somewhere. I like to look at it as a spiritual party. Who wants to party by themselves, man? I want to fucking bring all my friends and everything, man. And just keep doing big shit, which is helping somebody else get out of the fucking, you know, and that was another quote. They say, oh, when you hit rock bottom.

I said, no, you could go below the fucking rocks to the maggots. There's always a lower. There's always fucking, don't think you hit rock bottom. You could always go fucking lower. And by the way, you don't have to hit rock bottom, and everybody's bottom is different, and we all have different pain thresholds. You know, if you're suffering and that elevator is going down,

it doesn't have to hit the ground floor. You can step off. So to kind of round this out and, you know, bring it home, you know, if someone's listening who's suffering and they're hearing your story and they're like, man, that guy, like, I can't believe how far he's come from where he was to where he is today. But obviously he's just, you know, he's a genetic freak or he's wired differently.

Like I, you know, I just can't, I can't get out of my own way and I'm stuck. And I just, I hear what he's saying, but like, he doesn't understand my life. Like, how do you respond to that? One word, man, honesty. And I think we have to be honest with ourselves. And I tell people that all the time. When people write me, oh, you did all these races and you've done all this shit in the crow bags,

I say, man, you could do the same fucking thing but the first thing that it requires is honesty with ourselves we have to be charity starts at home we have to be honest with ourselves enough to say and I had to do it and I'm speaking from my I had to say I'm fucked up I'm an addict I'm a person who has admittedly done grimy shit to people that have transgressed and done shit against me which I felt okay now I got the right motherfucker to you got what's coming to you so it took a lot of honesty on my part to be willing to take that mirror that i'm holding up to everybody else and and looking at everybody else and flip that shit around and be like i'm the one that needs to get fixed right how do i do that common denominator and all the fucked up shit in your life yeah

i mean but that's a big fucking challenge to accept and i have a chapter called accept you have to accept the blame don't keep trying to fucking you know use events in your life as a scapegoat for being a fucked up person or you know everything's everybody's life is different but we can all attain the same things if if that honesty is there and that's one of the 26 qualities of a devotee is that they're honest. It's tough. It's the fucking hardest thing, man. Listen, man, you may look at where I came from

and where I'm now, but what you don't see is the 37 fucking years of tears and pain and fucking bloodshed and fucking tests that have come that I failed and failed and failed again, but was willing to get the fuck back up. And it's not how many times we get knocked on our ass. It's how many times we're willing to fucking pick ourselves up and push fucking through the next gap between expectation and result. And then the world throws us through another fucking curveball puts us at risk that's story in a nutshell so it comes down to what you want your story to be i didn't

want my story to be oh yeah he was abused and he was abandoned and he was fucking made to feel like shit and it's okay that he's in prison or fucking dead that was it's understandable fuck that i didn't want that to be my story and that's what I'm trying to tell people with this book. Don't let those events that have happened in your life

determine who you are as a character. You can break free of any of that adversity and it just takes, like you said, flip the the mirror man look at yourself stop looking at everybody else and what they're doing that don't matter what anybody else does don't matter you know it's it's about what's going on with us that's what we have the power to fix is us we don't have the power to determine how people are gonna treat us

or look about us or talk about us and especially with social media these days everybody goes on there talking shit about other people it's so toxic coming back to the Joe Rogan thing it's so toxic and so poisonous and so disgusting you could have the best intention in the world and you still see fucking people on your videos on youtube thumbs down fuck this guy fucking fuck him fuck you it's such a weird thing because i can't imagine even if i had a negative response to somebody's piece of content to like go and like you know take the time where i'm coming for like like dude does your life that's i like i just wouldn't do that does your life really suck that fucking much that you took

all that time to go and fucking go on that shit and watch it and then be with with a poisonous fucking comment like that you know the four agreements talks about that not to take things personal that's their poison that's their hell and when i saw don miguel uh speak you know even i still read his book and read those things because that's what i fucking yeah i do take shit personal i'm like i'm gonna come fucking bash you and you've yeah i've still sent those emails no that's like i'm like motherfucker i'm playing in your town in a fucking month i'll put you on the guest list play the show you ever want to wind up and beat your motherfucking ass say something personal because that is your your achilles heel dude like that's

the character defect that will like set you off and get you to do something you're gonna regret, brother. Yes, I know. You know, I gotta catch myself. We all got them, dude. I got plenty of them. Alright, man. We gotta end this thing. God bless, man. Shit. Hey, this one. Did we record? Check it. Yeah, dude. Two and a half hours.

Awesome. I love you, Rich. Thank you for the forward. The book's called The PMA Effect. The PMA Effect. It's up for pre-order. Pre-order link is up now on Amazon and the PMAEffect.com. The PMAEffect.com. And you're doing signed books for a minute here. 500 of the first copies, it's signed.

And then we got 400 already. October 2nd, the day before my 56th birthday. Right on. Why do I not know your birthday is in October? I'm in October too. I'm the 20th. And Julie's what? Julie's July.

Oh, July. Yeah, positive. PMA effect. PMA effect. 30 for life. We don't know what's happening with that yet. 30 to life. Yeah, that's what I said. Oh, you. 30 for life. We don't know what's happening with that yet. 30 to life. Yeah, that's what I said.

Oh, you said 30 for life. Oh, 30 to life. Maybe I did. I don't know. We're not sure where. It's coming out next year. Yeah, we don't know where yet. It's going to be epic.

That's all I can say. Right on, dude. All right. All right, man. Peace. Let's go get something to eat. Are we doing that? Let's do it, baby.

Peace. What are we doing? Peace and plants we're shaking hands love you man take us out with a mantra and thank you for helping everybody and

here's here's my here's my mantra that's from the Bhagavad Gita there's nutshell verses of the Bhagavad Gita the essence of the Bhagavad Gita. There's nutshell verses of the Bhagavad Gita, the essence of the Bhagavad Gita. And that means those who are constantly devoted to the path, I give them the understanding by which they can come to the supreme. In other words, it's action.

Take action. Better yourself every day. Don't just keep talking. Zip it. There's a chapter in my book called Yo, Zip It. And that's what it's about. Take action, man, and push through every single day. That's what it's about.

God bless everybody, man. Yeah, I'm not even going to say peace and plants. I just want that to be the capstone. Yes, sir. Right on, brother. Good talking to you. Much love. Yes.

A lot of life force, a lot of wisdom in that man. Hope you guys enjoyed it. There's a reason why he continues to be such a popular guest on the show. Uh, I love him like a brother. Thank you for listening. Please let John know what you thought of today's conversation by hitting him up on the social channels. You can find him at Twitter at JJ Cro-Mag on Instagram at John Joseph Cro-Mag. Make a point of pre-ordering his brand new book, The PMA Effect. You can find that at purepma.com or on Amazon. And as always, check the show notes for additional links and resources to expand your experience of today's conversation beyond the earbuds. If you're frustrated with your eating habits, if you're looking for a little bit more nutritional guidance,

you're trying to dial up your plate, I can't stress enough how helpful our meal planner could be to your experience. Meals.richroll.com is where you go. And if you do, you will find there thousands of super nutritious, delicious, and easy to prepare plant-based recipes, literally thousands, all customized based on a wide variety of personal preferences with unlimited grocery lists, grocery delivery in most US cities with international coming soon, and an extraordinary team of customer service professionals, people who really understand this

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or click on Meal Planner on the top menu on my website. If you would like to support our work here at the RRP, just share it with your friends and on social media. That's the best way. I love seeing people share the show in that manner. It's great. Word of mouth is what this is all about. If you want to take that extra step, you can also support the show on Patreon at richroll.com forward slash donate. I want to thank everybody who helped put on the show today because I don't do this alone. Jason Camiolo for audio engineering, production, show notes, interstitial music,

Blake Curtis and Margo Lubin for the video version of the podcast, as well as graphic elements that I share on social media. Reese Robinson for behind the scenes video and photos. David Kahn, my man DK, for sponsored relationships, and theme music, as always, by Annalema. Thanks for the love, you guys. See you back here next week with filmmaker Sanjay Rawal,

who is the man behind a brand-new documentary called 31, Run to Become, which really impacted me. It's a really cool movie, and we had an amazing conversation. So you have that to look forward to. Until then, be well, do good, live a life of gratitude and seva and ahimsa. Peace. Thank you.