The Rich Roll Podcast - John Joseph Returns: The Evolution of a Cro-Magnon, Overcoming Insurmountable Obstacles & The Transformative Power of PMA

Episode Date: June 8, 2017

Back by popular demand, my good friend, podcast favorite and provacateur-at-large John Joseph returns for an unprecedented 5th appearance on the show to share more of his extraordinary story. A story that lays bare the indelible power of the human spirit to face and transcend unimaginable, seemingly insurmountable obstacles and ultimately transform one's life wholesale. If you're a longtime listener, Johnny Bloodclot needs no introduction. For the uninitiated, John is a sui generis American original. The very definition of hardcore. A survivor. A spiritual warrior spouting straight talk directly from the streets of the Lower East Side with one singular, driving purpose: getting people to wake the f&*k up. Conceived and raised in abuse, deprived of opportunity and left to his own devices, John turned to violence and drugs on the rough and tumble streets of New York's Lower East Side in the 1970’s. It's a path that predictably led to violence, crime, addiction and incarceration. Spending his teens as a drug mule led to a series of unsavory foster care homes, culminating in unimaginably horrific stints in juvenile detention. Then things went downhill. To avoid long-term incarceration, he enlisted in the Navy, only to go AWOL after a fight. Fleeing the law and rudderless, John found redemption in the hardcore punk rock scene flourishing on Manhattan's Lower East Side in the early 1980's. Taken in by the Bad Brains' frontman H.R., John began to explore not just his musicianship, but his spirituality. It's a journey that birthed the Cro-Mags – one of the era's most iconic and influential hardcore punk bands. Later, he found his spiritual salvation living in a Hare Krishna monastery, birthing a life-long love of meditation, yoga, the vegan lifestyle, racing Ironman triathlons, and most importantly, his profound devotion to service. Renown for his straight talk, no BS approach to living and the power of PMA — positive mental attitude — John continues to tour as frontman for both Cro-Mags and his new band Bloodclot. He also just released a 2nd edition of his memoir Evolution of a Cro-Magnon* and is the author of nutrition primer Meat Is For Pussies*, with a foreword by yours truly. A man who truly walks his talk, every conversation with John leaves me better than before. Today's conversation proves that just when I think we’ve covered it all, new layers emerge. So even if you've enjoyed all of John's previous appearances on the podcast, this episode will find you riveted by a stream of mind-blowing, never previously told stories that are certain to incite, provoke, educate and inspire. LANGUAGE ADVISORY: John drops more f-bombs in this conversation than I could count. John is John, and editing was out of the question. So if you're queasy about foul language, consider yourself warned and make sure the kiddos are out of earshot. Enjoy! Rich

It wasn't until I wrote the entire story and got it off my chest to the world that I was really able to heal. And that's why I wrote that book, because I've gotten thousands and thousands of letters. I correspond with people, emails, and I just got one today. This dude on Twitter was like, your book helped save my life practically by your example. And example is better than precept we have to live everyone talks to talk who's walking the walk that's who I look to I'm looking to see how are people living their lives and that's the example and that's what I try to do too is lead a positive life and show people you know no matter what you can climb out of any hole, you know, no matter how far in

the depths of hell you are. And I've been down there, but I was willing to like climb out of that and surround myself by positive people. That's the other thing is the association we keep. That's the one and only John Joseph, and this is the Rich Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey everybody, how you guys doing? What is happening? My name is Rich Roll. I am your host. How you guys doing? What is happening? My name is Rich Roll. I am your host. Welcome to the podcast, the show where each week I sit down and convene long form with the best and the brightest, the most interesting change makers and paradigm breaking minds and personalities across all categories of health, fitness, diet, nutrition, sports, entertainment, business, spirituality,

and so much more. I've got one goal in mind that is to help you self-actualize to help you manifest your best most authentic self and today i got a great show for you today i sit down once again with my main man john joseph he is a podcast favorite and provocateur at large and this is a really amazing exchange that is sure to insight, provoke, educate, and inspire you. And I got all kinds of things I want to say about John prior to launching into this conversation. But first, let's do a little housekeeping. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time.

It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment, an experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem. A problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to guide, support and empower you to find the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type,

you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey.

When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. Okay, we did it. Thanks for sticking with me. John Joseph. If you're a longtime listener of this show, then my man, Johnny Bloodclot needs no introduction. He's really one of my most popular guests to date. And I think he's been on the podcast more than any other guest. He's been on four previous times, episode 41, 66, 223. And he also appeared with Mishka Shubali in episode 95. If you're new to the show, I urge you to check out his first appearance on the podcast. It's one of my most powerful

episodes that I've ever published, RRP 41, a really beautiful documentation of an extraordinary life. And we kind of pick it up today with a little bit more about his life. If you're new to the show, for the uninitiated, John is a true American original. He is a New York hardcore punk icon and the front man for the legendary and influential punk band, the Cro-Mags, a survivor of the rough streets of New York's Lower East Side in the 1970s. This is a guy whose youth was marked by unbelievable abuse, foster care, drugs, crime, incarceration. And John is a guy who has endured and overcome all of this. Obstacles most of us really just can't even imagine. His salvation began with finding solace in the New York hardcore

punk scene. He was taken in by the Bad Brains, one of the most influential bands of that era. And that's a journey that birthed the Cro-Mags, which also became one of the era's most iconic and influential hardcore punk bands, and later led to a life in a Hare Krishna monastery where he found his spiritual salvation and developed a lifelong love of meditation, yoga, the vegan lifestyle, racing Ironman triathlons, and most importantly, his profound devotion to service, all of which falls under this umbrella that John calls PMA, positive mental attitude. John's got a new band. It's called Blood Clot and a new album that comes out July 14th. And he also just released a second edition printing of his memoir, Evolution of a Crow Magnet. It's an unbelievable book. So please pick that up. And in case you missed it,

he's also the author of a book called Meat is for Pussies. It's a fun, easy read intended to introduce the principles of living a plant-based lifestyle to the average everyman. And I'm really proud to have contributed the foreword to that book. I'll put links to all of these products in the show notes of this episode on the episode page. In any event, I love this guy. If John is anything, he is no BS. This is a guy who walks his talk and I just adore him. I love him and I love my conversations with him. And just when I think we've covered everything, we've covered it all, I discover these new layers to explore with him. And this conversation definitely does not disappoint. It brims over with mind-blowing stories about his life I had never previously heard him tell. So even if you have listened to all those other episodes, those four other episodes

with him, you're going to be delighted at some of the new stories he tells today. And like I said at the outset, this episode is certain to incite and educate and provoke and definitely inspire you. And I think that's all I'm going to say. So let's let JJ say the rest. We're recording. We're live. JJ say the rest. We're recording. We're live. J.J. in the house. Whoa, Enrich, whoa.

Freaking, uh. In the container. What is the container? The container studio. This is your fourth or fifth time on the podcast? I think it's the fourth time. Three times. Well, you did one.

Remember we did it with Mishka? So this would be maybe five. I think this is number five. Yeah, yeah five and the first time in los angeles though no first time was in new york right i'm saying this is the first time that we've done it in la and the last time that we did it it was still like a year and a half ago i think so it's been a little it's been a minute right so welcome to la wow and i had the uh pleasure of going to your book event. You're on the precipice of releasing the new edition of Evolution of the Crow Magnet. And you did a reading the other night. Super awesome, man.

And that was the first that, I mean, we, like the first time you were on the podcast, you kind of walked through your whole story. And if people are listening now and they haven't heard that, you should definitely go back and listen. I don't remember what episode number it is, but I'll put it in the show notes. But I heard aspects and elements of your story that I hadn't heard before. And it's just, you know, it's really intense what you have faced and battled with and overcome to be sitting here right now. It's just, it's a fucking miracle, man. It is a miracle. It really is and

you know like lately i've been speaking at a lot of prisons and uh like this guy came to our show in long beach and he did 18 years in like maximum security prisons and and he you know what i try to even tell these people that i try to pay it forward all the time. So anytime anybody asks me to speak at a gang high school or high school or prison or whatever, I just spoke at this prison in New York called Goshen. And it's a maximum security prison. And the thing about this prison is they've already been sentenced. So they're going to do serious time and i and i tell them listen you got to keep hope you can't give up there's always uh

you know there's always uh room to change there's always a you know you're at the place where i was and uh sorry i'm just adjusting your mic. Yeah, that's all right. That's cool. So I try to just give him that PMA, that positive mental attitude that it's never too late to change. And even while, like this brother who did 18 years, he's a fan of the Cro-Mags, and he's like,

I needed to do that prison time because i would not be alive right now and i kind of feel that for myself too it was the same thing i was going on autopilot marching toward death because you know the shit i was doing was just craziness on the streets you know so if somebody's listening to this and they're hearing you for the first time they haven't heard the other episodes it's probably you know for context at least like lay a little foundation you know the thumbnail like right version of your story well uh my father was a professional fighter and uh was very violent towards my mother his career started falling apart he wanted to be a gangster.

Like, my brother ran into, like, these professional boxers, Alexis Aguayo and all these guys. He went to a fundraiser, and they said, you know, what are you doing here? And my brother was like, well, I want to donate money because there's no, you know, when boxers get older, they have, it's not, there's not this retirement plan.

So it was a fundraiser for that. And he said, my father was a fighter. And they said, who's your father? And he said, John Shorty McGowan. And then he was like, yo, he started calling all the boxers over. And one of the fighters, professional, said to my, your father could have possibly been world champion. I didn't realize he was that good. Oh, yeah.

He was knocking everybody the fuck out. And he was a tough Irish scrapper. So he was like a great white hope kind of. Yeah, he was. I mean, you know. Who was that? Like a Cooney? Wasn't like a Cooney type?

Yeah, Jerry Cooney. No, but he was a mean you know who's that like a cooney wasn't like a jerry cooney no but he was he was a welterweight but but the uh the point is when his career started falling apart uh and he got into the booze and wanting to be a tough guy he took it out on my mother and uh you know putting out the book the evolution of a crow magn, I learned a lot more, even from my mother. He would pay the child support and then come to the house, break her jaw, take all the money so the court couldn't put him in jail. It was that type of thing. I didn't even find out until I was 45 years old that he actually raped my mother, and that's how I was conceived.

So we got taken out of the house. My mother was— We're your brothers. I have two brothers, two siblings. I'm the middle. And the lady who was—my mother had to keep keep we had to keep running from him and hide and then he would find out where we were and break in or whatever beat her down take her money so finally my mother's got so much into depression and

having to take manic pills and you know there was even a suicide attempt. And then the lady, the lady who rented us the, no, it was the landlord. This old Irish landlord lady found me and my two brothers out in the snow in our underwear in a filthy apartment. And my mother passed out on the couch on pills and she called child services services and that was it you know and we got put in an abusive foster home for seven almost seven years you know separated first you told some crazy stories the other night about what went on you know in one of these homes and the level of sort of you know corruption that existed at least in the 70 I mean, I don't know what it's like now. They're still doing it today. I just saw a report in New York, child services closed down a house.

Because if you get foster kids, they have to give you money. And back then, they were getting $300 a month. I mean, in 69, 1970, whatever, per kid. And they had six foster kids in the home. So they're getting $1,800 a month. And, you know, we're having to steal the dog's dog food. And they treated us like slaves. All we did was clean the house.

We were never allowed to go into the refrigerator the entire time we were there um we got the shit beat out of us we all had to bathe one time we all had to bathe in the same water all the kids so i went in there i was the last kid and i pulled the plug you were the youngest or why were you no no just whatever whatever they said they said. You had to line up to take a bath. And then I pulled the plug because the tub was nasty. And he just came in and hit me with a right hand. And I mean, the foster father was a fucking brutal piece of shit. The stuff he did to terrorize us to not say anything and they wonder how these kids don't

say anything but they put the fear of god i mean he took me to an insane asylum pilgrim state and smashed i had said something at school and he took me to pilgrim state mental institution and i didn't even know where I was going. He didn't even say anything. He just pulled me out of the car by my hair and started smacking me and smashed my face against the fence. And the mental patients were like ripping, you know, sticking their fingers.

And he said that if I say anything ever again, he was going to put me and my two brothers in there and no one would ever find us. Right. And I'm like seven years old. Oh, that young. Yeah, it's when I first got there. And he had hit me.

And then I showed the bruises to the nurse. And then I had to later say, oh, yeah, we were playing tackle football. I was like seven or eight years old. So that went on and then the older foster kids who was 17 and 18 because you stayed in foster care till you were 21 back then you know them guys were like doing shit to me and my brothers molesting us and and I couldn't they threatened to kick kick our asses and this. They were just wankers, man. You know, and, you know, so it was a bad situation. And we went home on one visit, and my mother had a nervous breakdown

and tried to slit her wrists and take a bunch of pills, and we were grabbing her stuff. I mean, and we had to call my uncle to come over and then we didn't go home for a while but we knew we couldn't say anything to her because if she got upset yeah we just we just kept our thing was we had to hustle we you know and i i say that to this day hustlers are are are not born that way they're created out of a court you know the circumstances they're put into we had to steal just to eat i mean they never bought us clothes the entire time we were there we wore shit till it fell off and then went to um to the dumpster right and you would say

army and and to get new clothes you know and and then when you would be able to get, you know, a couple pennies to rub together, whether you stole it or made it or whatever, you'd go out and buy stuff for your mom because you were trying to get back home. We thought if we just kept buying her stuff that she wanted, she said she liked these paintings. So we found out where they were keeping the money. They stashed it because they couldn't put it in the bank. So they got the cash, cashed the checks, and they had this in the basement, a closet. And that's where they kept the money. And then we found out where the money was.

So we just kept going there every day. And we would take $5, $10 and save it up. just kept going there every day and we would take five ten dollars and save it up and we would buy my mother paintings or a piece of jewelry or whatever anything she wanted and uh we bought her this christ head necklace and that was when we thought it was right before christmas and we thought you know okay we're gonna come we stole i stole a fish tank one time like just crazy right we were like buck wild kids you know and i really want to try to write it like a like a wonder years but just for these three fucking brothers surviving in this foster home and what we had to go through for that seven years it was was insane, man.

Right, like 7 to 15 for you. Yeah. And you have that moment where finally you're facing a term up at Spofford, right? And you got to split. Well, I got put in St. John's Home for Boys after that. And then I started Wildin' Out. It was 76, bicentennial, and I started wilding out. I sold weed to an undercover.

I broke into a supermarket because we wanted to rob the pharmacy. So I had two charges, and then they were like, the next thing you do, we're going to send you. You're going upstate. And I took acid with this kid in there who got his mother's boyfriend set him on fire as a kid and it was just total scar tissue from the neck down she as you told it she filled a bathtub no he did the mother's boyfriend uh he had a hangover and um this is what bobby k told me back then he he was just playing he was like five six years old and the mother's boyfriend had a hangover and dragged him to the bathtub and threw lighter fluid on him and set him on fire i just i can't even i mean insane shit what this kid had to go through. And he survived that. Yeah, and he survived it.

They put him in a mental institution for a little while, home, so he was sexually abused in this other home. The shit that happens to the kids that... I mean, he ended up going to prison for killing two people. Is he still alive now? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know if he's still alive i know because when i went back to saint john's they said that he was arrested for murdering two people but uh he tried the first time we took lsd he tried to murder me

with a knife he had a bad trip so then i split and i knew but you were like he was a kind of a weird awkward kid right and you you know you were able to like be friends with him though the way you described the other day friends with him but he would snap like you'd be sitting with him and we had this other friend wolfie and and he was puerto rican and bobby k we would be huffing vandalex carbona whatever we i don't even know what that is like in the 70s everybody was huffing and and bobby k would just all of a sudden snap and just start beating people up and he was maybe like five nine five ten 240 pounds of solid muscle they called him the thing you know

the thing that caught the marvel can i mean that's what he was built like he was just built like and he was an animal and he would he would snap so then i went out onto the streets and hustling heroin carrying uh i was a drug mule and then uh they robbed uh the dealer and then we ended up ended up uh in forest park selling dust and um got shot in the leg with a 22 we sold this guy sister angel dust and she jumped out of the family's second story window and he came in there like hey who got dust and when we i was like yo right here the you know he just opened up the side of the van so uh and that's a crazy shot in the calf yeah i got you saw the scar there yeah yeah i got a hole

in my in the back of my left calf but the thing was we we it was i was selling for this dude computer and then the guy that worked for him was this guy Disco Mike. And he looked like John Travolta on steroids. And I didn't know it at the time, but he used to take all the kids from Forest Park to his house and slip them and Mickey and rape them. He raped like over a dozen kids or whatever. They said he did it to all these kids. So after I got shot, we went back to his house and he had this little protege kid that looked like a little John Travolta kid, 15 years old. And he pulled the bullet out of my leg

and made these drinks. And then all of a sudden I'm like, yo, what the fuck was in that? And he's like, oh, I gave you something to take the edge off and relax. So I blacked out. And then I woke up with this big motherfucker carrying me to the bedroom. And I'm like, yo, what the fuck are you doing?

Because, you know, that's one thing. Nobody ever put their hands on me. When I left that home, I was like, all right, you know. And you're like 15, 16? I was 15 years old. Yeah, because it was right before my 16th birthday. My sweet 16, I spent it in lockup. But he, so he dropped me, and then I just blacked back out.

I woke up hearing like these screaming from hell, and I walked toward the back room. And when I opened the door, he was raping that kid. And he had a bat, right? And he's a guido, so he had a baseball bat. All the guidos had baseball bats in their bedroom. And he had guns and shit, but he was a coward. So I just picked up the bat and started teeing off on him and then i left uh as i was leaving the house uh he had a big ziplock full of angel dust bags the aluminum foil packets and i just grabbed

it and went to forest park and forest park was hot because the shooting just happened so all the fucking cops undercovers you're so out of your mind you decide that's the place that you're supposed to go it was kind of like subconsciously i wanted to go to prison i needed i knew bad shit was gonna happen i don't know like so i went back to the dome in forest park had my pipe and I just started filling up my pipe and smoking dust, and then I heard, get on the ground, and I look around, and there was like fucking six cops, guns to my head, put me down, took me to Central Booking,

got me for distribution and possession of a felony narcotic because angel dust was you know a felony and so what are you looking at uh well they wanted me to snitch on the dude that i was getting the shit from and i know back you don't ever snitch on nobody you know Beretta said, you do the crime, you do the time. You don't go fucking snitching on people. And yeah, they were trying to scare me with, you're going to do six years, all this type shit. And I said, look, the guy just, they played the good cop, bad cop shit. And I said, look, the guy just brought it to me in the park. I knew right where he lived, everything. But I wasn't going to snitch on him. And so then they took me out.

On the John Travolta guy? No. The guy that he was making it for was the guy. You're talking about computer. Computer. This guy was just the muscle for him. Gotcha. And he would control i got the job

because the last kid split with like all these bags of dust so that's how i got the job so i would hold the dust sell the dust and then this guy disco would be there with his gun and make sure you know he was kind of like the muscle at the dome and uh yeah but they wanted me to snitch on the dude that uh that was making the dust did you tell them about disco though and what he was doing no i didn't say nothing i just kept my mouth shut so how did that guy end up i don't even know oh i found out because before when i went back to uh forest park there was a couple of people there at first and I said yo this guy is fucking raping kids and then I found out like earlier in the 80s after like or 82 83 I saw some of those guys that hung out at the dome and they say yeah man like I found out later on that he had done that

to like a lot of kids that that was his mo and then he had people wanting to fucking kill him so he had to see he split and went wherever the fuck he went I don't know and so explain the significance of the dome the dome was like the place yeah so you would pull in the dome was it was a band shell in forest park so bands played in there that's in queens play played there yeah it's like it's a half hour outside yeah it's like off woodhaven boulevard and um and then the way the whole system operated you would pull in and drive along the tree line uh and then come up to the staircase

and then you'd be in your car and you'd be like yo who got two e's you know two and all's who got quaaludes who got dust who got this who got acid who got doses and then the dealers would come down the stairs and there was benches all there and everybody hung out and stashed their shit all over that area and then whatever you wanted they would they would bring it down the stairs it's a famous place like I ended up meeting through a cop friend of mine in New York from the 104 precinct I was trying to find a cop to write this angel does pilot which got me representation from icm they read it uh and i couldn't find any cops around and then just one day my friend was in long island wearing his sergeant 75 he was in the 75 out of brooklyn and the old guy comes up and goes hey you want a job and uh

my friend bill hall sergeant bill hall goes yeah i'm in the 75 he's like oh i'm retired out of the 104 and he's like the 104 that's where the dust was forest park that whole area and uh he's like let me ask you something do you have any experience uh you know back then with the angel dust in the 70s and 80s because my buddy's writing a pilot. He needs to talk to some cops to do research. And the guy smiles and goes, I was the head of the Angel Dust Task Force from 76 to 82. Right.

So he's going to know every single one. And I met with the guy. He's a legend in the NYPD. His name is Detective John Wildman Wild wild and the cops named him wild man because he was one of these dirty harry like when he found out bikers were selling dust at a bar he would just roll up take a baseball bat go in and just start cracking their heads till somebody fucking told him something pure maniac i mean the guy's in his 70s and he's sitting in this irish pub i went all the way out to long island to interview him and he's fucking just still jacked like you know you

don't want to fuck with the guy so what did he uh what did he have to say about that era like because you had your perspective from through the eyes of a 15 year old kid who was on you know the negative end of the equation so well he knew the people I was selling for. And he said, oh, I busted a lot of them guys. What happened to the computer? He didn't know. I guess he didn't know what his name was or whatever. I heard he had an explosion in his house.

I've heard several things. But there was two places, the and the carbines which was in ridgewood by grover cleveland park that was the two big dust areas so anyway the bottom line was i wasn't gonna snitch so you get busted your back is up against the wall. And they were trying to scare the shit out of me. And I said, hey, man, like, you know, just whatever's going to happen, I'm, you know, I'm going this alone. So the cops would drive him. And one of the things they always told you in St. John's was if you fuck up, they're going to send you to Spofford.

And if you saw Mike Tyson's Undisputed thing, he showed a picture of Spofford. How many years was he there? He was in and out of there. It's not a long-term facility. It's where you go to wait to go to court. So, like, you could get remanded. In other words, I spent three months there, so I would go to court once a month and they would be like, remand means you're going back to Spofford.

But when you got up there, it was in one of the worst parts of the Bronx and the Irish cops that drove me up there uh you know they were like yo listen and I'm gonna tell you this straight up and they were dead serious like uh and they said you know I'm gonna speak word for word verbatim exactly what they told me because I'll never forget it they were like the last white kid that was in here they stabbed him to death and they said the first nigger or spic that fucks with you in there you better take him out and I said I'm not prejudiced and they were like they just started laughing and they go remember what I said you know the one cop driving and yeah so the minute I got in there was on man I was like just fighting from day one just hitting hit

this big black dude with a chair you know just and I had to keep going to court I wrote about it in the book evolution of a Cro-Magnon it's like even being inside you know it's a whole culture of prison culture and lock up culture it's like this whole fucking different set of rules you have to live by you know what it what the rules out in the world ain't the rules when you're locked up and you don't have the rule book going in you gotta learn no i it quick, right? No, I didn't know nothing because this black dude, we were in Indoc where they strip search you

and all that shit. And he's like, motherfucker, you're going to be my Maytag. And I was like, nah, you're going to be my Maytag. And everybody started laughing. And I said to this Puerto Rican cat,

I was like, yo, what the fuck's a Maytag? And he's like, yo, you just told that big motherfucker that he's going to have to wash your fucking drawers and suck your dick. It means you're going to be his bitch. When you call somebody a Maytag, it's like, yo, you're my bitch. And then the minute I got to the wing, he just fucked with me. And I banged him out with a chair and then i

i knocked out his friend i lost that's how i lost that knuckle that knuckle it got so infected so they put me in the cells which was like this padded room because i broke that's what they call it yo that motherfucker broke it means i just went buck wild Like staff tried to restrain me. I was fighting staff. But you knew you had to go in swinging from the start. Otherwise, you were going to be a target and you were going to go in quick. Well, the thing was, this guy did some bullshit to me. He pulled out his fucking dick and tried to hump the back of my head and then touch

you know so actually he got the worst end of the deal because for doing that in there that's like a crime i didn't want to press charges against him but it's like sexual yeah it's like sexual assault what he did so i didn't press no charges i just i just rolled with it but they nicknamed me when i came out i went back to to uh to b3 which was the intermediate wing and they nicknamed me like mighty whitey and fucking i had respect the rest of the rest of the time i was doing sports so i was playing ball with the brothers playing handball with the spanish. You know, and then anyway. So how long were you in Spofford? I was there for three months. Uh-huh.

And then they finally sent me up 18 months upstate in a facility called Lincoln Hall Reformatory, which was, you know, you had everything from attempted murder, rape on down. everything from attempted murder, rape on down. And a lot of kids with serious emotional issues. I had to see a psychiatrist the whole time I was there. And my brother was there, too. So I got respect because I was in an intermediate. We were the first people to go into Railway State Prison for Scared Straight. This was in an intermediate. We were the first people to go into Raleway State Prison for Scared Straight. This was in 78.

I spent my sweet 16, I spent in Spofford. And then, you know, they took us to Fishkill State Prison, maximum security prison. And, you know, they scare you straight. But that's what I said. That shit don't work.

Because if they don't give you something to get you out of the life that you're in then you're just going to go back to what you knew when you got out and that's what they do with all these people now it's just warehousing uh you know they don't there's no there it's correctional it means you're supposed to rehabilitate the people and they don't do that they just warehouse for beds there's no, it's correctional. It means you're supposed to rehabilitate the people and they don't do that. They just warehouse for beds. There's money in it. So that's, you know. You're not getting rehabilitated.

You're getting trained into how to become a professional criminal, right? And you're going to go out and you're going to reoffend. And, you know, you've had your, you know, rollercoaster ride through this system. We haven't even gotten like a quarter of the way through your story. But essentially, you know, like you get out of this system that you're, you know, you have this. Back out on the streets. You're back out. Reoffended, sold drugs.

Right. Ultimately, then your back's really against the wall and you end up signing up for the Navy basically to get out of it. Well, they gave me an alternative. My mother was dating whatever had a friend that was i don't know what their relationship was but i wasn't tight with her and she tried to take me home somebody has to sign you out of lockup you have to have some place to go they just can't release you onto the street and uh she signed the paperwork but then i had nothing in common with her because i she'd never raised me i was never there uh

i was just doing crazy shit i was going out and getting hammered where's mom now now she lives in queens in historia and since this book came out... How's she doing and how's your relationship with her? Beautiful. She doesn't eat meat anymore. I mean, this book brought us... But you've been able to, like, mend that relationship. Well, I'm going to tell you something. Writing this book, it was therapy for me and it cleared a lot of, you know, stuff off the table between me and her. There was a reason she never took us back, and she had a boyfriend who didn't want us around.

So she chose the boyfriend over us. And even when I was writing this book, I'm like, how the fuck am I going to end this book? And I actually lived the ending of the book. It was playing out in front of me. My brother was about to die from addiction. The day before 9-11, I did an intervention on him. Fucking got him a bed in St. Thomas in a rehab that my friend ran.

Fucking planes hit the building. Boom. He ain't getting out of New York. He detoxed on my couch and my mother um her husband had um gambled away the house at the time so she was homeless and at this time i had record deals and stuff and and i had quite a bit of money that I had accumulated so I turned around and got her an apartment and furniture and everything she lost everything she was penniless homeless no furniture no I got her an apartment and um so like a month uh and you were able to

have a uh have closure with the Foster family, right? Well, I'm going to get to that first, but dig this. So the guy that didn't want us around, his name was Carl. Back in the 70s when we were kids, he didn't like us. And then after a couple of months, my mother calls me up and she's like i have something to tell you i was like what and she's like i i let carl move in to the house that i got her i'm like how the fuck could you do that to me oh my god and then i was like you never fucking loved us you we had this huge brawl on the phone and then she's like i started saying really mean stuff to her.

And she's like, stop saying that. Stop saying, it was like this climactic situation. And then she just blurted out, your father raped me. And he raped me for your younger brother to be born too. I only planned to have Eugene. So I was 21 years old with three kids. He was beating me down every day. What was I supposed to do?

And then me and her just sat literally on the phone for five minutes, sobbing uncontrollably. And then we just have been best friends since that. And then I had to confront the foster family have been best friends since that, you know. And then I had to confront that foster family because when the first precedent in this book came out and I needed to have closure, it's the five parts of story design. The last one is the resolution, you know.

You know, inciting incident, progressive complications, crisis, climax, resolution. So I had my climax. I needed the resolution. And I was doing a reading in the town over from them. And I said, I told the lady from Simon & Schuster who was driving me, she rented a minivan. And I said, I got to fucking go see this house. And I just rolled up and uh i'm just looking

at it and all the fucking bad shit's coming back you know and i'm just sat there in the in the car looking at the house like and then this old man was like watering his lawn and And I was like, I'm going to ask him, you know, thinking they moved out. And I get out and I, you know, I remembered him because he was from Italy. He's like, yeah. I said, who lives in that house? I said, who's in that house now? He's like, oh yeah, it's a friend and Rose. I said, Rose Valenti still lives there? And he goes, yeah. Rose and Fran, their daughter. And I said to him. And Fran's like about your age? No, Fran's older than me.

She's about, I would say, she's a good 10 years older than me. But she was living in the house when you were a kid. She was the real kid. So the real kids got everything. Fran and Vito. They got everything, whatever the fuck they wanted and then we had to watch them have christmas and tour and all you know and money and all kinds of shit and food and we you know we had to stay out on the patio sleep in the garage that was you know and then uh

and i said well i was one of the foster kids that got that house shut down. And the man just looked in my eyes. And then he was like, you know, he remembered who the fuck I was. And he dropped the garden hose and ran into his house and wouldn't come out. And then I was like, I told Stephanie, I was like, yo, they fucking still live there. And she's like, you know, what are you going to do? And I said, I'm going to go bang on that fucking door and confront them. What do you think?

She's like, you want me to come with you? And I was like, nah, I got to do this by myself. And I needed closure, you know. And so I went up and I rang the bell. All the shades were drawn. It looked like nobody was home you know but the cars were in the driveway and um and then i just started banging on the door i opened up the screen door and i'm like boom boom so this lady comes to the door pulls it open she's like what

the are you knocking on my door like that for and the first thing i did was look because she had this real big black it looked like a black bean with hair coming out of it back in the day under her nose and that's the first thing i looked for and i was like that's her and she was this miserable old woman and i was like is your name rose valente she's like who are you what the fuck are you doing at my door and I just made her say her name and I was like as you're and I I said it like five times and she wouldn't answer I go are you Rose Valenti and she goes yeah who the hell are you finally and then I said I'm John McGowan I was one of the foster kids in here and she clutched her chest and there was like a wall maybe two three feet you

know behind her and she just went back against the wall and was just like stood there like fucking stunned and then Fran came and opened up the door she's like oh my god John McGann when we were just talking about you how are you and your brothers come in and I said you know I was like what the fuck makes you think I want to come in that house you do you think I have good memories of what you people did to us and then and then she was like oh and for a fact I had a wife

beater on with my Terminator shades I look like a fucking total like like maniac kind of looking dude and then she's like how's your brothers eugene and frank and i go we're all right now that we all got out of prison and like just trying to put the fear of uh god into them a little bit and all rose kept saying was take off your glasses and uh finally i did and then she looked in my eyes and she just said you're marie's son like she was just in another fucking galaxy like never in a million years did she think that day that saturday i was gonna roll up but what do you make of that like what do you think was going

through her mind i mean i presume not too many of the kids were dropping by to reconnect with her so this is a unique situation but was she afraid or was she sort of realizing like the the ills of her ways or no i i don't i think them people are so twisted they were probably like we gave them every you know you know who knows what their version you know the fact of the matter is we kept a diary for almost seven years when we gave it to the social worker that man broke down in tears for the shit they were doing to us yeah and it shut down hayes and then they pulled all the kids out of the home so let them say whatever the fuck they want how nice they were to us that's fucking bullshit and you know uh the state said it too you know i i don't

think she was i think she was just so fucking stoned that uh stunned that she just was bugging man and then fran uh you could see she was very uneasy because I think they knew we were coming back at some point and then that's why the old man took off so how did you wrap that up well what happened was Fran looks and tries to change the subject when I said oh yeah we're good

now that we all got out of prison and all this shit and then she was like oh who's that over in the minivan is that is that your wife i said nah she works you know with the publishing company to put out my book and frank goes oh you wrote a book so you're gonna be famous and i go no but you are i swear to god and then i said to her, I go, I go. What was the look on her face when you said that?

She just was like, that's when it just hit her. Like, what the fuck? Like, she didn't have nothing else to say at that point. I shut her the fuck down. And, you know, the thing is, she didn't do anything other than, you know, was complicit in what the fuck those people did to us it's not like veto was just on drugs he didn't give a shit and her husband no veto was the son so the two real children were veto and fran i see so veto was their son and he i mean i remember his friend rose's drugs rose's husband was he gone rose's nick he died that was one of the first

things i said i go where's nick and she goes oh he died like 40 years ago from lung cancer and i said yeah i know because i did know that he passed away my mother told me and um and then the last thing that i said to them was i just wanted you fucking people to know that you didn't win. I was like, you tried to break our spirit and make us feel like shit that we didn't exist. Nobody wanted us. That's the kind of shit they would say to us. You're lucky to be here. Nobody else, not even your own fucking mother wanted you, you fucking pieces of shit.

Like making us feel like garbage. I was like, I turned out a good person and I just wanted you to know you didn't fucking win. So fuck you to both of them. And I just turned around and walked to the van and didn't look back. And then I was like, you know, I was just looking ahead. I'm like, Stephanie, what are they doing? And she's like, their fucking jaws are hanging down to the ground. And we just went and did probably one of the best readings.

I said, you know, I went and it was the town over. I said, you know where I just was? I went to that fucking foster home. And they were like, what? Like the crowd that was in the bookstore. So when you think about that, I i mean obviously that was a cathartic experience and it brought closure to you which was important to you but as somebody who kind of you know walks this spiritual path now uh and those there there are certain principles that

you adhere to those sort of rules for how you live um you know how do you reflect back on that like can you say that you are in a place of forgiveness or how do you reconcile like these and these other things that have happened to you uh and the people behind them in terms of like giving you peace of mind and kind of you know walking uh you know trying to like sort of live your life engaged in your higher consciousness you know what it's uh it's let go, let God. I can't never forgive them for what they did to me, but it just doesn't have pushed me to the point of violence anymore.

And I had a lot of shit going on through the 80s and 90s. I was very violent. I never admitted to anyone up until I was almost whatever, 40-something years old that I was molested. And I woke up in a bad dream that these guys... And it was like, it was a metaphor because these kids used to... We used to sleep in the freezing garage and they would come in and just pull the blankets off of us. And then I would have to sleep. They would take out blankets so they had extra blankets

and I had a recurring dream of that. And I had been working on a film based on all the shit that was happening to the main character. It was based on me, but I never told my writing partner. And then I just woke up sobbing uncontrollably and it was just them two standing over me and they ripped the blankets off me. And I was like, and I just, I was like, why the fuck did they do that to me? Why did, you know, I just lost my shit.

And, you know, like, thank God those dudes wasn't there that day because like I heard they still come and visit them. in there that day because like i heard they still come and visit them and if they if like that's the two people that i can honestly say uh i'm not sure how i'll react if i ever see them i'm probably going to fucking punch them and uh i just can't excuse them for the way that they put fear into me every day. Just like my father called me in 99 and he found out, you know, my brother said, oh, yeah, this guy in a bar knows him. And then my brother, you know, gave him my number. They wanted to have a dinner and meet me. And he called me up. I said, bro, you don't want to meet me.

I said, trust me. I'm not letting go what you did to my mother what you did to me whatever what you did to my mother you thought you're a tough guy and he still wasn't this was 20 years ago he thought you know whatever he's still thinking he's a fucking tough guy 50 years old i said i'm gonna fucking bang you out dude so when they met um my brother your brother your dad meeting your brother yeah my dad met my two brothers and we have a half sister and he sent her in to make sure that i wasn't there and she said oh no it's just eugene and frank and then he came in like all nervous looking around and they they're like yeah but he's john is the wild uh you know he's since passed though no man crazy he's around my brother's and my younger brother's

an addict and almost died uh three or four times already so they had to detox my brother to do the next surgery on him, heart surgery. And they sent him to the VA up at the Five Finger Lakes, way upstate. So dig this. This is how there's never no fucking coincidences in life. And Frank called me up and told me this story. So he's in there and the nurse comes in and he's detoxing off pharmaceuticals and all this shit cause they can't he's got Mercer

so they have to keep taking bone away from his chest and fucking giving him another heart surgery and all this shit he's almost died like 3 or 4 times already and the nurse looks at him and goes oh mcgowan are you any relation to john mcgowan and he's like yeah john joseph mcgowan that's my brother

and the nurse goes no john emil mcgowan don't get no more irish than emil does it and he's like frank goes that's my father and she's like John Emil McGowan is your father and Frank goes yeah and she goes I'm gonna be right back he was in the fucking next room to my brother and this is way north of New York this is way north of New York City in a fucking VA assisted facility. A lot of them guys are getting ready to die or whatever. They sent my brother there to die. They said he's not going to make it.

They told him later they gave him a 10% chance, less than 10% chance of living. So my father was in the next fucking room. And she goes over there and she comes back. And she's like, do you have two brothers? What are their names? And he's like, yeah, John J. and Eugene Michael. Goes back in. And then back and forth like that.

And then she's like, your father's in the next room. And the priest wants to come over and ask for your forgiveness for what he did to you guys. Because your father's dying. And my brother goes, tell that motherfucker to go to hell. I'm not fucking forgiving him. Fuck him. And then they went back over there. And he's like, he don't want nothing.

Mom told him, he don't want nothing to do with you. And then Frank called me up. And then they sent him to another part of the facility. And then they were having to go to the same specialist. My father pulled through. And so did Frank. So they ended up having to go to the same doctor. And they wheeled my brother in in a wheelchair

and she's like, oh yeah, that's John McGowan over there too. And Frank goes, yeah, that's my father. And he goes, I ain't his fucking father. We just got the same last name. And then Frank gets up out of the wheelchair and he's like, you're damn straight. You ain't my father, you piece of shit. Tried to go at him him and then they moved my father out of that facility that is so dude i swear to god but listen you said like there's no coincidences it's like god is compelling this situation like let's take these two guys that on some level you know need some kind of reconciliation and get them out of new y City, throw them upstate into this environment where they're going to have to like wrestle with each other.

And here's the thing is like, you know, from what my, like my brother was never, my brother, he threw my mother down the stairs when she was holding Frank. So Frank always had. Hard to let go of that. You know, some brain issues or whatever, like fucking. Oh, your brother went.

And it was always like, there was something a little off with him. And me and E were always the tough ones. Like we were like, you know, my brother E even to this day, because he won't, like I worked on my shit through spirituality, but he refused to do that. So he walks around with the anger that I had in the 80s and 90s and he just flies off the fucking handle. My mother keeps, you know, the thing is, is like when this shit book came out and my mother was like, I had no idea that they were fucking molesting you and they're doing all this shit. I was like, mom, we never, you think I'm going to go out out and fucking tell people i didn't even tell anybody that i did it as a as as therapy i needed i would

keep coming to that part of the book and just break down crying for two hours and and not want to put it in there and then you know and i was like my writing teacher was like, you have to write the truth. That's the most important thing for you to- But when she told my brother, fucking my older brother denied it. He goes, that never happened. He's in denial. My younger brother goes, yeah, they were doing that shit to us. And then she went back and said, both your brothers said that that happened. And he was like, I don't want to talk about it

and he still won't talk about it to this day and he always you know it's heavy stuff yeah it's heavy and i want to get to kind of the solution part of it yeah to get there we got to leap leapfrog a little bit. I mean, you go to the Navy, and you start getting interested in the punk rock scene. You're in Norfolk. Well, I was already into the punk rock. Right, but you find this club in Norfolk, and you kind of tap into it, and you're exposed to some of the acts of the time, the Untouchables, et cetera.

Teen Idols. And then there's like one big night that ultimately ends up kind of shifting your whole life. Yeah, well, to set it up properly, even when I went in the Navy, I went to boot camp high on Angel Dust. I was like, I didn't change one single thing about it. You didn't want to go into the Navy.

That was the choice you had to make. No, actually, because they gave me a choice between the Navy or going back to jail. And I said, yo, the state didn't raise no fools. Send me to the Navy. So we were shipping out of Fort Hamilton. And my brother E was like, yo, I got

$40. They sell fucking dust down the street. So we went with this other dude and bought four bags of dust. and i'd never been on an airplane and then i went to great lakes naval station dusted and got out of boot camp fucking was smuggling drugs selling drugs show up day one day lit up but i came out of jail i was cock diesel like they say in prison you know when you're locked up you got to get your weight up i put on 35 pounds of muscle and this one guy when i lived on the

streets he always picked on me in rockaway and the first thing i did i saw him before i got arrested i was hustling drugs again in rockaway and this guy philip beggy he's like wow you got big dude and i just walked up and fucking knocked him out and then i wasie he's like wow you got big dude and I just walked up and fucking knocked him out and then I was like he's like what'd you do that for like later and I was like cause you fucking picked on me every fucking day dude now you got yours how's it feel

so I went into the Navy got out of boot camp smuggling drugs on my ship from weed from Jamaica fucking pills uh selling lsd and just a wild punk rock dude in norfolk i was the only fucking squid that the punkers in norfolk let hang out because i fought these rednecks that were fucking with everybody in the bar and they didn't know how to fight and i just fucking and i was like even if they wanted

to get rid of me they couldn't but you'd be in uniform and then you'd pull up to the club and like changing your punk rock clothes yeah i'd be on duty going to happy hour you know fucking getting that get just illegally and just going there and watching uh the band sound check and drinking and doing whatever. And then one day I pull up, the guy runs out. He's like, you have to see this fucking man. And he's like, the guy's name was Doug that owned the club. It's still there, Taj Mahal in Norfolk. And I was like, all right.

And I'm walking in. He's like, no, no, you don't understand. Dude, they're black. And I go up, and it was it was the bad brains and they were doing a sound check and i seem to think to this day that it was this song super touch fit and um they just clicked that off and i was like what the is this next level so i was hanging out with them before they went on i sold their manager lsd and then saw the show and hr the singer was talking they had just started to get into rastafari but still dressed punk rock and uh no dreads or nothing yet and um i just had this deep talk with the dude and he's like hr yeah with the

singer and about pma positive mental attitude and he's like oh we're gonna run into each other again and all this and uh you know i uh there was one you know my my ship went out to sea and there was this one fucking redneck on my ship that kept fucking with me and everybody else knew to leave me

the fuck alone I was wearing sex pistols destroy bondy shirts with the swat stickers like just fucking you know

the old sex pistol shit the way you know punk rock was for shock value i'm not a nazi just you wore shit that fucking pissed people off so everybody on the ship knew to leave me the fuck alone they had me seen a psychiatrist that's why i got that time bomb on my hand because the psychiatrist said that i was a time bomb waiting to go off. And I was beating people up in town,

but I kind of wouldn't do that shit on my command. Like, the first class boat to mate was an intense dude. He trained in martial arts. He taught the seals in San Clemente. I mean, he was a fucking intense dude and um that's all right that the instagram live just went three yeah so uh i i was training with him and he kind of liked me uh and he let me slide on a lot of shit he caught me smoking weed i was up at like the 06 level out at sea where the fucking radars are i climbed all the way up to superstructure and this guy was a fucking ninja

man he got his last command he like they tried to hit him in the head and throw him overboard because he caught smugglers on the ship and he fucking, he fucked them up and killed one of them. But you get in a fight with this dude. No, I didn't get in a, the first class liked me, so he let me go on a lot of shit. And I told him, I said, man, tell that fucking dude he needs to leave me the fuck alone, man. And he warned him. And he warned them. And right before I left, we were going to South America for shellbackers when you cross the equator.

We were going past Brazil all the way to Antarctica, like down to Argentina. And I had gotten my wisdom teeth pulled. So unbeknownst to me, I had an infection. So I was in a really bad mood. And I had gotten popped for a drug case right before this. So I was restricted to the ship. They wouldn't let me off the ship. So everybody's going off the ship in Bermuda and partying.

I'm fucking like prisoner status pretty much because I had a civilian case I pled not guilty but they were like you know I was fucking up on the ship so they restricted me to the ship took all my pay everything uh they busted me down to the low pay grade E1 the whole shit and uh I just was in severe pain and the dude just fucked with me and I just walked into the paint locker because that's where the boats and mates mixed all the paint and I

it's called dogging down the door I dogged down two of these latches so nobody could open the door from the inside I picked up a paint can and I beat the living shit out of him he shit himself

I just beat him in like the soft tissue, the arms. And then I just went to my rack and laid there. And then the master at arms came and got me, put brig, you know. And so I'm in there. And then my fucking mouth gets so infected. After we left Puerto Rico, they had to medevac me back from a helo back to fucking Puerto Rico and then they forgot to tell them that I was prisoner status and so they had me hooked up to an IV for like a week and then they said well your ship's gone

we're not gonna fly you back out to your ship. You're going to have to go back to Norfolk. But they kept me until I could get a military hop, and they forgot to say I was restricted. So then I went back to Norfolk, still didn't say I was restricted. Then the guy, after like two months, was like, McGowan, I just got a call. Your ship's coming in today. Like, uh, McGowan, I just got a call. Your ship's coming in today. Like, wink, wink. Like, the master ship's police called them and said I'm supposed to be restricted

and they're on the way to get me. The ship already docked. So I fucking pack up, few clothes, had some money. What would you have been facing? Oh, they would have sent me to Leavenworth for beating that guy down and then the drug case so uh

I got on the bus that ran down Hampton Boulevard through the gate and then it does the whole naval base and then goes back out so I took the city bus and as I'm pulling out of the gate I'm stopped at the light and there goes the two master-at-arms the

ship's police with the fucking guns from your ship yeah crossed across the master-at-arms the chief master-at-arms and uh and in the first class were walking over to Nimitz Hall to get me. And I fucking was like, I just shrunk down in my seat a little bit and just was like, like if they would have just looked to the left, they would have just pulled out their guns. And Ben like dragged me off the bus. And I rolled out the gate and I went to stay in D.C. with Henry Rollins. And I stayed in Norfolk a little bit then when made my way to dc for some reason i just thought i was like i didn't know where i was going but i was like i'm done with

all of this and you knew henry from the punk scene i knew henry from the punk scene what ian mckay and ian mckay so they had an apartment together and then i was just like yo i split from the military they're like well you could stay with us for a little bit. So you basically are, you go AWOL. Federal warrants. Yeah, so you have warrants out for you. Is there a statute of limitations on that? How does that work? I brought people back.

I think I had the second longest AWOL history in Norfolk Naval Base and the one guy beat me I had 15 years when my band members snitched on me but when you become like a well known musician I always had a fake name and it was weird because like everybody on the scene

knew that I split from the military but nobody snitched on me it took my own two band members to snitch on me it took my own two band members to snitch on me to fucking get me caught but i had you've like ironed it out now or is it still like a pending no i got a general upgraded to an honorable discharge because my lawyer argued like yo this guy came out of this traumatic childhood he was fucked up on drugs when he went in he should have never been in the navy to begin with. They offered me my benefits and everything and I wouldn't take it. I didn't feel it, but

I said, I don't deserve that. I didn't, you know, I, you know, there was a time when I went in where I tried to do the right thing and, you know, fucking, it just coming out of where I was coming out of, I hadn't dealt with any of that shit yet. So it was like, you know, like, yeah, my, and then I was a Hare Krishna. I lived as a monk for two years. So he said, oh, conscientious objector. I didn't split during wartime. And with all the other stuff.

And the fact that I never got arrested under my name. That's how they catch you. They catch you by you fucking up. You get pulled over for fucking running a red light, whatever. Filing to get a new social security card. Anything you do. That's why everybody gets caught. That's why you never got a driver's license.

Never got a driver's license. Worked off the book. You know, like crazy shit. And I even talk about the story in 80, you know, a bunch of shit happened. And I ended up leaving the Cro-Mags in 88. I had almost two years of a hardcore crack pill drinking addiction. I had strong arm drug dealers and i got pulled over like we me and the girl we were gonna sell her car i'm flying through the desert

at 100 miles an hour no license a wall fucking crack in the car everything and i get pulled over on the way to palm springs i I said, that's it. We're getting fucking set. That's it. It's over. Our run is over. And the cop comes up. He's like, license and registration.

And I just, I just sat there. He's like, sir, license and registration. And he had his arm on the, you know, you know how they put their arm on the door and he's looking in there and i see dd2 fucking 25 whatever boats and made shell back he's got all these navy tattoos and i was like so when did you cross the equator on that tin can boats and i just hit him with everything he was he was a boats and mate he was on a destroyer and he's a shellback and he's like what you were in the navy i said yeah man i'm i'm a shellback i fucking beat them pollywogs down and all of this and he's like he's like man i can't give no navy man boats have made a ticket and he was like listen keep keep it under 75 out here or or next time they're gonna give you a ticket and he let

me go and then that was it and then when we got there we found out i mean all this is in the book evolution of a crow magnet like the story is insane you would think there's no way that this shit happened we got on this fucking plane the parents had hired there's some big hollywood big shots and uh they hired like FBI- They're just terrified their daughter's hanging out with you. They reported that I kidnapped her and I was part of a cult, stole the car. Because we went to sell it to her friend when he ran the VIN number. That's how they wanted to get us.

They put warrants on me. The level of like chaos though is insane. Listen, we were cracked up for fucking days and we went to, that's how the whole shit started. We went to a car dealership in LA and then he's like, goes to run the, he's like being a real dickhead to us. And then he's like, look, I'm only going to offer you, we wanted like 10,000. And he's like, I'm only going to give you 5,000 for the car. Goes back, runs the thing. And then, you know, he's back there for a while.

And I go back by his door and I hear, all right, Mrs., you know, whatever. I won't say her name, but, you know, I'm going to hold him here on stall till you get here with the police. I go outside. I'm like, this motherfucker just called your mother and the cops are on the way. And she's like, you're always. So he comes out and he's like, we're going to give you the $10,000. I just have to go fill the paperwork out.

Goes in the back. And we have been hiding out with the Red Hot Chili Peppers merch girl, which I fucking, we took her money. Like, you know, she sold crystal meth and crazy shit. We ended up robbing her. But like, and then I said, Kate, you know, we got to go. This guy's setting us up. And then we had this like junkie moment. You always think you fucking know everything.

We're like, I'm like grabbing her like, listen, listen we have to fucking go and I walked back to the room because he had the title and then I walked into his office and it was one of these moments and he was this big fat obese dude and it was one of these moments I walk in the office and he's leaning back in the chair and we both looked at the title at the same time and I just snatched it fucking punched him and fucking he fell over in his chair. I said, let's go. We fucking run out

of the dealership. We get in the car just as her motherfucking parents are rolling up with the cops. High speed. We fucking got the fuck out of there

and you're driving. What part of LA are you in? We went up into the hills and I lost them. We went all up into the fucking hills and all these turns. And then I ended up, she was telling me which way to go. And we got back to the house and then we were like, okay, now this shit's on. But we still didn't know that they reported that I was, they said I was this cult, in this cult and kidnapped their daughter.

It was when we went to the car dealership in palm springs and the guy ran the vin number and he was like you guys that just read red alerted the cops they're on their way you guys need to get the fuck out of here it was kate's childhood friend he's like he told me the deal like there's warrants fucking all this shit so then we get sold the car for like two ounces of blow, $2,000 in plane tickets to get back to New York. And she told her friend what flight we were on. And then I was like, she didn't tell me that.

So we had one ounce in the overhead and one ounce underneath checked in. So the first, she's like, like i was like you didn't tell nobody what flight right she's like no no not really i was like what do you mean not really she lived next door to the posts post cereal santa monica pacific coast highway mansion stuff and i was like she hates me she's gonna fucking snitch on you we had and the first thing i said was we have to do all the blow in the overhead. And I just started going into the bathroom. Of course, like addict.

Like that's the first thing you think of. And I was just sniffing shit up, standing in the middle of the aisles, reading from the Bhagavad Gita. All you motherfuckers are going to hell for eating meat and all this shit. Like out of my mind. You're just insane. Yeah, insane. hell for eating meat and all this shit like out of my mind you're just insane yeah insane the stewardesses were like you need to sit down or we're gonna land this plane and call the police and have you removed like you know and then i got away at kennedy airport and fucking went

they never thought i would have went to pick up my check bag but i had an ounce in there so i went and got that and they went outside first to get me while i'm getting my bag bag but i had an ounce in there so i went and got that and they went outside first to get me while i'm getting my bag then when i went out with the bag they went in like we don't know where he is you know you just slipped past and i got out and i went to this uh crack burnt out building where everybody free based and i was was free basing. And then these dudes just came up behind me. And fucking slammed me in the head with a pipe. Woke up. Head split open.

All my money. Everything. The weed. The fucking coke gone. So I just went to Tompkins Square Park. And it was pouring rain. I lost my girlfriend. I lost everything I had.

I had burned bridges. Nobody would hang out with me. Because I robbed all these coke dealers that were drug gang members looking to kill me. And I just broke down crying. I went to the Hare Krishna temple and I said, I went in front of the deities and I just started crying uncontrollably. And I said, if you don't let me stay here, I'm going to die. And they let me move in and then i stayed there and started getting back into my physical health training cycling i got a job as a bike messenger and then just clock i climbed out of hell man yeah it's you

know what part of what we kind of skipped over is the whole chapter of you sort of falling under the wing of the bad brains post-Navy and all of that. And how really HR and that crew taught you a lot about life and straightened you out. But then you kind of go on, you backslide again into this crazy LA experience that then you had to kind of atone for, right? And have your second kind of bottom with this whole thing and you know we only have like 15 minutes because we got to wrap it up so we can't do like a three hour exploration of all of this but i mean the point is pretty made blunt bluntly clear that you're you know not only are you a survivor you're somebody who has you know weathered and experienced you know more trauma and abuse and neglect.

And, you know, everything that gets baked into that, the chaos and the drugs. And abusing myself, self-abuse. And all of that, right? You know what's up with the addiction, man. Of course. We're not dealing with our shit. We're self-medicating. You know, you were able to have enough awareness to understand that when lightning struck a couple of times in

your life, you kind of grabbed the handles of that. And I think that was the first sort of step in pulling you out of your circumstances. But, you know, it wouldn't take a huge leap of faith to see you leading the life that, you know, one of your brothers is leading. You know what I mean? And so when you look back on how you've been able to climb out of this and, you know, change your life and develop, you know, PMA, positive mental attitude and achieve all the things that you've been able to achieve, you know, despite circumstances that, you know, by all accounts should have you six feet under by now or locked up in a cage. or locked up in a cage, like how do you, you know, articulate that? Like what is it and how, you know, what is the message that you're trying to communicate to people out there when you speak at jails or you talk to kids or just anybody who feels stuck or feels like they can't stop drinking or they can't stop doing drugs or their elevator

is going down or they're swirling in their version of the chaos that, you know, was the, you know was the you know sort of defining aspect of your everyday existence i mean i think the thing that i you have to what i call day one day one has to come and day one has to be, even after all the crack and everything else, I was still getting high and then, like, you know, started smoking weed again. And then it would turn into doing ecstasy pills in the 90s and all this shit. And then I finally said, you know what? I had to face the truth. And the hard truth was that I'm an addict and I, you know, I have an, I have addiction issues and I needed to

have a day one where I could say from this point on, I'm never going to fucking touch any drugs. I'm going to work on myself every day. You know, the bad brains in HR, they were surrounded by a lot of very positive people who were into a lot of metaphysical yoga philosophy you know so i had a good foundation and um i had to fall back on that and just and from my time living as a hari krishna and meditating and getting up i just had to have that day one where you say this is the day i'm not gonna fucking get high anymore and then it's every day you have. And I said that to somebody recently, I go, Hey man, I'm an addict. I'm just choosing not to fucking get high today. I'm going to train for this Ironman. I'm going to, I'm going to write, I'm going to

do everything I need to do so that today, one day at a time, I choose not to get high. I choose to do the right thing. Everything in life is based upon, it's the choices we make under pressure to find character. That's the whole thing what McKee says in story two. Anybody could act like they got their whole shit together when there's no pressure. When the pressure comes, then you see true characters revealed. When the pressure comes, then you see true characters revealed. And what kind of story do you want to leave for the world? My whole thing and what I've seen, and I'm writing this book on PMA now,

is I hope that my story, like I said at the end of the book reading, I go, look, man, I didn't write this book to get pats on the back sympathy oh you're so strong none of that shit i said i wrote the book and i put my whole story in what mckee wrote in my storybook from him that i had him sign it after class he goes always write the truth. And that's what I did. For people that don't know, Robert McKee wrote a book called Story. He's the guy who's sort of known as the king of how to structure a screenplay. And he does these seminars. Seminars, three days.

I did it twice. I took his workshops. He was depicted in the movie adaptation quite comically. But I had a defining moment with him because I've been utilizing what happened to me as a kid for the main character. And then I walked up to him after class and he had his little bantering going back and forth. Yeah, true character, you know, characterization. You see these guys with all the fucking tattoos to their eyeballs. Really, they're just marshmallows. And he was talking about me you know he's picking

on me dude right so after like i was like the second day i walked up and i was like you know i said mr mckee is you know everyone was allowed to ask questions i go as far as like you know a kid that was uh abused as a child he stopped me right there and he goes, child abuse is the cliche of the fucking day. It's like writers use it to try to gain sympathy and empathy for characters that are weak, they're thin, and we can give two shits about them. It's not the abuse, it's what we do as a result of it. That's the fucking story. And I was just just like that was when i was like i have to put everything into this story to i can't leave out as embarrassing as it was that these motherfuckers put their hands on me like that i had to tell that story and um and and i said at the end

ultimately that's that's the path towards you healing it for yourself. Yeah, it was. Because that's why I always had addiction issues and everything else. It was like these old scars. Every time somebody did some really grimy shit to me, whether it was a relationship ending or my band members robbing me, ratting me out, doing fucking grimy shit. These two clowns in the Cro-Mags, Harley and fucking Paris. And I considered Harley especially my friend, and he just kept stabbing me in the fucking back,

and I would spiral out of control because it was just ripping those wounds open. And it wasn't until I wrote the entire story and got it off my chest to the world that I was really able to heal. And that's why I wrote that book because I've gotten thousands and thousands of letters. I correspond with people, emails and fucking all kinds of shit. I just got one today. This dude on Twitter was like, your book helped save my life practically by your example. And example's better than precept. We have to live. These days, everybody talks shit.

Everyone talks the talk. Who's walking the walk? That's who I look to. Guys like you, guys that, you know, overcame stuff in their own lives and pushed on to achieve tremendous things in the world. I'm not, I don't care. Everybody talks shit out of their ass these days. I don't care. Everybody talks shit out of their ass these days.

You know, I'm like, I'm looking to see, you know, what actions, how are people living their lives? And that's the example. And that's what I try to do, too, is lead a positive life and show people, you know, no matter what, you can climb out of any hole. You know, no matter how far in the depths of hell you are and i've been down there i've seen crazy shit people mad people murdered in front of me i mean shit nobody should ever have to see but i was willing to like climb out of that and and surround myself by positive people that's the other thing is the association we keep. Who are you hanging out with? That's it, man.

If you hang out with rogues and thieves, you're going to be a rogue and a thief or a fucking junkie or whatever. It's people, places, and things. I never went to the programs, but a lot of the stuff they say is stuff that I just know to follow. People, places, and things, you know, just I'm an addict, I'm choosing not to get high today, and the higher power and all that. I utilize all this stuff except it's like with training, I do it.

That's part of my therapy too. I'm not a great Ironman, but I don't do it to brag or anything else. I just do it because it's part of my discipline in my life. It's a practice. It's not something to check a box on. It's a daily practice for you. Just so people know, a portion of the proceeds of the books is going to help Alexander Owens this year, too. I'm racing Kona for him again this year.

You're doing it again? Yeah, because unfortunately, they found two tumors, one in his back. And it's upsetting to me because I've developed such a love for this kid. me because I've developed such a love for this kid. And his mother is just in runner's world now, Diane Owens, because she's been under such stress. She had this autoimmune disease that left her on a ventilator, paralyzed. It was some freak shit. And then 10 months later, she ran a fucking marathon.

From learning how to walk and talk, she couldn't even take two steps. Complete. So this family is four years old now. So I want to try to help them again. So a lot of the proceeds, I'm turning over whatever. I'm going to raise $25,000. I did $50 fifty thousand last year so if people are listening and they want to help out where do they just go on my instagram page

at uh john joseph yeah john uh joseph cromag and there's the link to buy the book or the bundle you'll see that a portion of those proceeds and then i'm going to be posting a link uh if they want to just donate straight and not buy the book uh to the family the money doesn't go for any research or anything like that it's going right to the family uh to help with their expenses because it is a lot of expenses involved and right you know all right well erica just uh came by and and and we gotta wrap we gotta close this down because dude i feel like i could i could go for like four more hours like we only tap the surface of so many of the things i i you know wanted to continue to have the opportunity to talk to you so to be continued yeah but you know what anytime we're together we should do it

take the book home you could buy the audio book i'm gonna get into it i was gonna pimp it for you dude so you don't have to pimp it for yourself i know shameless self-promotion yeah i know sorry so listen man you are a uh triumph of the human spirit i love you like a brother it just warms my heart like a brother i thought we was yeah brother from another mother you know i was after the book event, Julie and I were driving home from downtown. And we were talking about, you know, the experience and you know, I was moved by it. And I just thought, it's so crazy that your life experience couldn't be more dramatically different than mine. But I feel so close to you as a friend.

Like you're one of my best friends. Like I connect with you on a very deep, intimate level. And yet your life experience, like we don't intersect. Like our Venn diagrams, like don't cross until, you know, we're like in our fifties. But here we are, see? I know. And so that's a beautiful thing and you know you you carry a very uh very heavy

and very powerful uh positive vibration um you impact a lot of people with your message and you are a true example of selfless service in the world and the uh and a testimony to the incredible power of the human spirit to overcome any obstacle, like you say. And it's beautiful to always spend time with you. Cool, man. I love it, man. And your beautiful girl, Erica. We're going to go eat now. Yeah, Erica. Oh, man.

Julie prepared a whole meal for us. Yeah, she blew up the kitchen for us, and we're going to go eat right now. But Evolution of a Cro-Mag, it's the new edition. Second edition. Second edition. Prior to that, it was a limited run. So there weren't very many copies of this book out in the world.

And then people started selling it for $500, $1,000. So it's out now and you can buy it. You can get it on your site. Yeah. And on Amazon. I would say the best place to buy it is not, you know, you can go to Amazon too too but johnjoseph.merchnow.com and if you get it at that site then a portion of those proceeds will go to benefit alexander owens and children's tumor foundation so that's where i try to send everybody to so that amazon ain't giving up a

dime but right these guys my publishers gonna, going to match whatever I give. So that's kind of a cool thing. You can get some great New York stories. Yeah, the stories are insane. And we only basically tap the surface. The stories go on and on and on. And as somebody who's spent hundreds of hours with you, I can tell everybody who's listening, it just doesn't end.

Just when you think there's no way i could get crazy yeah like it gets crazier so well you will be entertained you will be moved and uh and and like i said you will be inspired thank you for having me again and inviting me to your house now we're gonna shout out on some organic plant-based greatness you know it dude peace pma hardy bow you know i love your wife she's the only one that calls me giant on the dust i know she calls my spiritual name and erica said why does she i said because she's supposed to that's why i call her shreemati that's supposed to remind people of their spiritual path and she always does keeps me on the right path so you gotta surround yourself by good people she does that for me too yeah i know we were saying that today

she's like the sadhu of this of this family man she's an incredible woman for sure thank you for having me all right man love you peace love you too unbelievable right my, JJ, he just never disappoints. I love that conversation. I hope you enjoyed it. In fact, I just talked to John on the phone today, like an hour ago. He's currently in Australia in Cairns and he's getting ready to race an Ironman this weekend. So please give him a shout out on Twitter at JJ Cro-Mag or on Facebook or on Instagram. He's at John Joseph Cro-Mag on Instagram and wish him luck. And while you're at it, pick up his books, Evolution of a Cro-Magnon and Mutes for Pussies. A couple of announcements before I let you go. Julie and I are going to be in Miami next week. We're throwing a party for the release of her new book, This Cheese is Nuts. And we're

doing a live podcast. Super exciting. That's going to be Wednesday, June 14th at Sacred Space Miami from 630 to 10. If you're in Miami and you would like to attend, there are still tickets available. Go to consciouscityguide.com forward slash thischeesesnutsbooklaunch. And I'll put a link up to that in the show notes. While you're at it, pick up This Cheese is Nuts on pre-order. It comes out June 13th. Those pre-orders are important. It means a lot to us. If you would click that button and have it delivered on release day. We have a thunderclap campaign for those who want to help support our book launch. It's basically an online platform that allows you to pledge a social media post. And we sort of crowdsource these and all those posts go live on release day on June 13th.

So there's a link up to that as well in the show notes on this episode page. Plant Power Ireland is coming up July 24th through 31. We're going to this beautiful manor called Ballyvalon. I think that's how you say it, Ballyvalon, on 90 acres in the Irish countryside. We're going to take a group of 35 to 40 people through this extraordinary seven-day process of transformation. We have a menu designed by Julie, all plant-based, of course. We're going to have intense workshops on nutrition, cooking, relationships, creativity. We're going to eat.

We're going to run. We're going to meditate. We're going to do Ayurvedic treatments. It's going to be intense. It's going to be super fun. Really looking forward to it. There's a couple spots still available. So if this sounds like something you would be into, please go to ourplantpowerworld.com

for all the information and to sign up. Also, if you go to srimati.com, you can enter to win a free slot on this retreat when you purchase three copies, when you pre-order three copies of This Cheese Is Not. So all the details about that are on srimati.com. If you haven't checked it out yet, please check out our Plant Power Meal Planner. We just launched it. We're really proud of it. It is an online service that avails you of thousands of plant-based recipes, unlimited meal plans, and grocery lists.

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Thank you to everybody who helped produce today's show, Jason Camiolo for audio engineering and production and show notes and helping me with the script and the WordPress page and all of that. Sean Patterson for all his graphic wizardry and theme music as always by Anna Lemma. Thanks for the love you guys. I'll be back here in a couple of days with another episode. I'm really enjoying trying to move up, trying to boost up into this two episode a week routine. We're getting there. It's not going to be every week, but I'm trying to make this a more regular thing. Let me know if you're enjoying that. Is it too much? Are you enjoying the additional content? Hit me up on Twitter, Facebook, or on Instagram, and I'll talk to you guys soon. Peace. Plants. Thanks for watching!