The Rich Roll Podcast - John Pearson: Modeling Healthy Masculinity With The First Male Supermodel

Episode Date: February 27, 2023

What does it mean to be a good man? Furthermore, how do we combat toxic masculinity? And how do we find purpose in aging? Today we explore these topics and more with the world’s first male supermodel, John Pearson. John is a pioneer of the male modeling profession, and was the most sought-after male model through the 1990s, the face for some of the world’s biggest brands. But John is here today not so much because of his past—although it’s incredibly fascinating—but because of the very unique life he lives today. We discuss his wild career and the ways it has impacted his perspective on art, culture, the power of an image, and the modern world of influence. We also dive into his philosophy on parenting, mental health, and modeling healthy masculinity—themes that underscore his very cool lifestyle and self-improvement digital magazine, Mr. Feel Good. Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube.  Newsletter Sign-Up Today’s Sponsors: Athletic Greens: https://www.athleticgreens.com/richroll Squarespace: Squarespace.com/RichRoll  InsideTracker:  insidetracker.com/RichRoll Calm: calm.com/richroll JOOVV: Joovv.com/RICHROLL Native: nativedeo.com/rrp Peace + Plants, Rich

The Rich Roll Podcast. For us to survive, for us to thrive, part of our lives just have to be connected on a really authentic level. Today's gonna be a little bit different, a wee bit unique, and that's because my guest is unique. His name is John Pearson, and John has the very interesting distinction of being the original male supermodel. For me, I always knew that if you had a good time and you really engaged with somebody, if you do that with genuine integrity,

that transmits to the person who's looking at that picture. He's a guy who pioneered the male modeling profession. He was the most sought-after male model throughout the 90s. And he was also the male face of George Michael's iconic Freedom music video, which was directed by a young David Fincher. And actually, I went into George's trailer to rehearse the song, and he actually forgot the words. And I did the orange in one peel and chucked it,

and it landed perfectly all in one. So I knew I was on the right track. But it's important that you guys know that John is a friend. He's a kind, beautiful, and wise soul. And he's here today, not so much because of his past, although that is, of course, fascinating. He's lived a very unique life, and we do go into it, but really more because of how he lives today. And it's all coming right up, but first. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time.

It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care. Especially because, unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem, a problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care providers to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location,

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Okay, in this conversation, we discussed mental health and modeling healthy masculinity, which are the themes that underscore John's very cool lifestyle and self-improvement digital magazine, which is called Mr. Feel Good. No matter how tired I am, no matter how worn out I am, I want to be present. You know, I want to be real. John is a very special guy. He's really one of my absolute favorite people.

And I'm really excited to introduce you to him. So let's do that right now. This is me and John Pearson. Enjoy. Are you ready? I'm so ready. I'm so ready. I'm delighted to have you here.

You know, it's interesting because we've been friends for a couple of years and I know you, but I don't know you super well. And it's been really fun kind of doing a internet excavation of your life. You've lived an incredibly interesting life. And the first thing I wanna explore with you is like my, the sense that I had kind of learning more and more

about your journey is this idea that if I had experienced one 100th of what you were exposed to as a young person in your 20s in New York and London, Tokyo, these adventures that you've had, I would most certainly be dead. Like, how are you such a well-adjusted, grounded, you know, gentle soul after, you know, all the things that you, you know, gentle soul after, you know, all the things that you, you know, the kind of, you know, worlds that you've navigated. Oh, wow. That's a big one. And thank you for that.

I think it was just very important for me from the start to sort of establish sort of establish some sort of control or equilibrium about what I was navigating as a young man going into this world, going into this business, going into this thing that was so in contrast to where I came from. And it just, as a Yorkshireman from North England, you know, you always used to hear, don't ever change. So there was a real grounding roots in me anyway, growing up where I wanted to just, I kind of love the whole idea of adventure in life. And I was really from the age of four, probably, but definitely from the age of 11. I was just really wanting to see everything and not be put in a box and explore and be excited about life. And it always came back to,

okay, I can see all the chaos around me and I can dance within the chaos, but I have to stay grounded and rooted. And it wasn't something that was, you know, that I had some magic pill for. It took work and it took energy and it took focus to sort of determine what kept me grounded. And at times, you know, it was pretty major during the 80s and 90s when I'm traveling and working nonstop twice to Europe in a week, working both times. And that went on for years just to keep your sort of,

keep your head. Right. You know? Yeah. It sounds as if there was some sort of self-defense mechanism inside of you that put up some guardrails? Because I imagine that you've seen quite a bit of carnage.

I mean, that period in the 80s and late 80s, New York City, the worlds that you were in. I mean, there's gotta be like a lot of dead friends in your wake as a result of kind of lifestyle that was happening. Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah yeah yeah they have um it was incredible it was incredible it was incredible and at times it was too much because at times the traveling and being the center of attention and turning up and playing

the clown in a way because i always felt part of my job description was to not be afraid to be the fool. So I could be light, so I can be present, so that I could serve the people around me. But there were times when, yeah, it was pretty mental. Traveling around the world, then going out, then doing crew dinners every night and always being on, always being on. I think when I was in my mid-20s i just

got to this point where i just i didn't want anyone to touch me to come near me i had multiple bookings for the next six months and i said to my agent much to his chagrin you know i i i i can't do this anymore so i went off to jamaica on my own never been to jamaica and spent a week there just sort of writing and meditating and being clear and trying to find peace. And then actually, when I did that, when I came back, that was the first time that I feel I'd really honored myself and given myself the time. And that just shifted something in me. And I thought, oh, I can have control of myself. I can sort of figure these things out and navigate and know who I am. You know, I mean, it's an ongoing project even at this age.

Yeah, I mean, in 2022 to do that would be something that would be celebrated, but you know, back then probably you were told like, you're crazy or why are you doing that? Or you need to do as you're told and show up or. I was never told you need to do as you're told, no way. Cause you hear these stories about the modeling world and you're a piece of meat and you show up here and you hit your marks and you put on the whatever

they want you to do. But it sounds like your experience was more collaborative and healthy. It was. And I think if you know, if you, and I don't mean to sound self-righteous because I was very wobbly at times, but I think if you enter a room

and you go into a place knowing who you are, people pick up on that. And if you want to be abused, it can happen. But for me, I never, you know, I never, I don't think, I fought at times with the idea of being a male model because I'm a northerner, you know, and I'm from a, you know. It is a weird thing. It's a weird thing. I mean, it's a thing like,

like, you know, you're such a recognizable face. People that don't follow that world at all probably see you and think, oh, I know that guy, or maybe I met him or I know him from somewhere. I mean, there's no magazine that you haven't been in. So at some point it gets imprinted on the unconscious mind, but they don't know you, they may not know your name. And that has to be kind of disorienting

for you as well, right? No? Not really, no. You're like, I feel like I'm on the wrong track here. No, no, I want to answer your questions because I, you know, I- Disabuse me of all of these ideas. I look at myself, you know, and what I've done

and it's not very interesting to me. What I'm doing now is really interesting to me. Yeah, we're gonna get to that. No, I know. But no, I mean, I'm trying to think. You know, I saw a lot of carnage. I saw a lot of behavior that wasn't great, but I always naturally was empathetic

and I was sort of brought up to stand up for people and stand up for myself. So I never really was chasing conflict, but I wanted to just make the day, which I do to this day, the best day it could be. And I was working too hard. And yeah, I had fun. And all my friends were the DJs in New York.

So I'd come back to New York. I always had the best place to go to. I was in the DJ booth. I saw all that. I enjoyed all that. But I also had to get up the next day. And I've always had this sense of responsibility and a work ethic, because I'm a working class boy from Yorkshire,

to get there and do the best I can in the day with what I've got. So there was always a really grown up kind of stoic, get to it, you know, have a good attitude, and that's where you'll succeed. And I was really, I was really focused about having an interesting life. That's what it's been. But as far as your question, you know, being just a pretty face and all those things and feeling, you know, I don't know, I didn't go to a great university or anything like that. I didn't have that education. I educated myself reading on books going across the Atlantic and around the world for 25 years, you know, that, that I kind of wrestled with that at times during my 20s, because I was trying to figure out what I really wanted to do what my purpose in life was but I didn't I didn't I didn't you know I I just got found peace with it eventually and I just thought look I'm really I can't swear can I I can but anyway I'm

really fucking lucky unfortunate literally what I wanted to do I was coming home from a girlfriend's place on two two buses on a Sunday night in rainy Yorkshire. And I saw this billboard of four, a couple, two guys, two girls in bikinis sort of in trunks in the Seychelles. And I thought, oh, I want a bit of that life. And literally within a year, it started to happen. And I never thought it'd go to where it went, but it did. So it's pretty amazing. I mean, you're in your fourth decade of doing this thing. Oh man, really? Come on, we're the same age. We can have this conversation. But that sense of responsibility, that sense of having to be a grownup, you know, came, was visited upon you early, right? Like when your father passed away at a young age. Yeah. Yeah. I

mean, my parents divorced when I was four years old. I have two older sisters and a mom. I went to live with them an hour and a half away. And my father, until I was 11, was a great father and saw us every other weekend. But he passed away. And yeah, it was massive. It was massive.

And I don't think, with all respect to my family and those around me and being english i think at that point in time there was the sort of counseling and the support that a young person would have i was literally told by someone to just go to my father's grave you know my mom asked someone a man a what, you know, have a word with John. And I, you know, little boy in a little cap and a little suit stood at his grave and this guy said, oh, just chuck some dirt on there and say, don't worry, dad, I've got this. I'll look after everyone, really.

And I did. You know, that's what I did. Amazing advice. I know, I know. You know, and then I was told by one of a family member, a senior family member that I could go to private school and I could have a great education. But I was terrified to leave my mother and my kids.

And I said, I'll get everything out of my comprehensive school that I can get out of a private school. And I did, but it was just, there wasn't that support system. There wasn't that understanding or that. No, no, no healthy male mentors. No healthy male mentors, no. So you just went and got a bunch of jobs, right?

Yeah, started at 12 in the market, selling vegetables and fruit and was, you know, fantastic. I'd work from 7 a.m. till 5.30. I'd work with every kind of person, every sort of, you know, in the, from poor people, working class people, you know, from poor people, working class people, rich people, posh people, educated, not educated.

I'd come home at night and I'd have five bags of old second fruit, which I'd sell again. I only made £2.50 a day, half an hour off at lunchtime. And then I went from there into a jean store, which is a really hip jean store and was a manager there within weeks time. And then I went from there into a jean store, which is a really hip jean store and was a manager there within weeks and was the, you know, the best salesman in the whole 50 out of 53 stores. And so I just got busy and I got, and I just wanted to be independent and I wanted to get out there in the world. And I just wanted to have, you know, the career officer couldn't figure me

out. They said, we know you'd do well, but we don't know what you'll do. You could go and work in the factory. And that was like, no, I can't work. I want to see the world. I loved American television shows and palm trees in California. Yeah, so that dream was kind of ruminating in the back of your consciousness.

And then one day someone walks into the denim shop, right? Like, and this kind of changes everything. Yeah, yeah, I was selling stretch jeans and I loved it. And so this was the era. So this must've been like 83, I think. 83, 84. This is Jordache and Brooke Shields. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. We remember it well. We can see the vision. The formative years. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. We remember it well.

We can see the vision. The formative years. Yeah, they were. So I was really, I was having a great time. And yeah, a guy came in and sort of said, hey, I'd like to take pictures of you. And at first I was a bit, what's this? A little bit suspicious,

but then I thought, let's have a go. And I was mad about sort of James Dean and Montgomery Cliff and American Gregory Pack and all the movies. And as soon as I got on the set, and I took my sister with me actually because I was a little bit nervous, my own clothes and he just started shooting and I just felt really at ease

and I felt like I had that youthful sort of confidence and aspirations and I just felt at ease. And I thought, oh, this is fun. This is good. I can, you know, I can make this happen. There's some joy in here. There's some energy. So, yeah. And how long between that experience and everything kind of clicking into place in New York City? Gosh, I think after that, my sister sent some pictures off to this magazine in London called Look Now, which was the sort of, you know,

the teen bopper sort of magazine of the day. And they invited me down to London. I think I'd only been to London once before to see a play with my school. And I went down, got in a black taxi for the first time, went to North London, went in, and there were two extraordinarily beautiful French girls. And I brought my cassette tape with me of all my music, shoved it on and had an amazing

time, shot an editorial. Then I went back up to Yorkshire that night and carried on working. And then they called me back and said, would you come and do another magazine, another cover? So I went down, did that. And I don't think, I wasn't even living in London. And I moved to London when I was 18. And again, I had I wanted to be an actor, I had no idea what would happen. But the agency took me on. I started working very quickly. I was like, okay, this is a bit weird. I wasn't sort of I didn't feel that I looked like the male models I'd seen in, you know, Vogue and everything else. I felt like a bit of a scruffy outsider. And then things started to happen.

And then I went to Japan. I made a bit of money. I had an extraordinary experience in 86. And then the idea was to come to New York. And on November the 4th, 1986, I flew to New York with a great buddy of mine. And about two days later, it just started to happen. I did the cover of Self with Uma Thurman.

I went in my first limousine. I saw I met Cindy Crawford for the first time. She just arrived from Chicago. I couldn't believe it. And it just steamrolled. And I really thought that it was just going to be a couple of months and this is fun and I'll wait tables and I'll be an actor and get into the actor's studio.

And it just started. And it just started and it just was perpetual. And it just, you know, in those days as well, you could book a client and you'd have them, you know, twice a year or four times a year for six or seven years. So you really became, it was before actors started going on the front and celebrities started going on the front of magazines. So it was just this exponential immediate growth that happened and it sort of took me by surprise, but I thought, right, I'm gonna make the most of this. Yeah, I mean, it was also like a timing thing

because this was all occurring at the very beginning of this whole supermodel kind of obsession where culture like this, the whole supermodel, you know, kind of obsession where culture, like this, the whole supermodel thing, right? Like wasn't a thing until like the mid, I mean, when did that start? I mean, you were there right when the genesis of that. And it was this intersection of like music,

rock and roll, culture, fashion, and the kind of glossy magazine era. I mean, magazine, like it's just not what it was back then. Like it was a big deal, right? And all of that was kind of happening, you know, at the same time, it was like this perfect storm and New York seemed to be like the place where that was occurring and then there you were.

Yeah, how lucky am I? It was great. And these women become household names, right? You know, and you're right there. Like I wanna talk about the George Michael videos. That's like crazy, right? Like it's just so iconic, all of it. Yeah, no, it was a magical moment.

It was, as you say, like a fusion of fashion and film and excitement and youth. And there was a real movement and yeah, that great cover. I forget what year it was was but it was around 91 maybe 92 of peter limburg shot of all the girls on the cover of vogue and then the freedom video and i was the guy i was one of the guys but i was sort of the prominent guy and i almost didn't do it so it's really funny but it was only because i knew the girls because i worked with them a lot and i thought all right i'll do this um but, it was a magical time. It was extraordinary. It was vital.

It was happening. It was dynamic. It was a great time to be alive in New York at that time. It really was. I hadn't watched that video in a while and I watched it last night and I was like, wow. Oh man. It does not, there's nothing about it

that feels dated or aged. I mean, the song is so incredible. And the women are just radiant in that. And then you're like, you are the stand in for George Michael. Like you are his sort of id or super ego throughout that video. It's really quite something.

And I couldn't help but think like, this is part of the myth making of what the supermodel was at that time. And it's sort of like this touchstone of where the culture was. Because that video was also directed by David Fincher. Yeah, it was. One of his early things.

I think he was just editing his first alien movie, or alien movie, his first feature, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So all of those like culturally relevant people in one place at one time. Was George Michael like there behind the scenes? I should tell you, I should tell you,

that was a crazy week because I was literally working in New York. I flew to Stockholm. I shot in Stockholm. I took a train to Lapland. I shot two nights in Lapland during their summer. So there was, I was in this hotel room with blackout blinds and I literally still had to sleep with my head in the bathroom at the back of the room

because it was still coming through. I left there, I went to Paris, I did a night shoot for, I think it was, it wasn't a brandy, because yeah, it was a brandy at the Gare du Nord. So I did a night shoot, then I flew to London at six in the morning, straight from the shoot. A car picked me up, I had to learn the song on the way to the studios.

Because you're lip syncing. I'm lipyncing it and i was really sort of like i want to learn this you know i didn't know there'd be an auto cue so i was really keen but it was a really easy song to get into but there's a couple of couple of verses that are tricky because they're so similar um put it on and we'll sing it now um and not. And then I got there and, you know, the first person I saw was Christy, which was great. It was a delight. I shot my days with Christy and with Linda. I mean, amazing people, amazing humans,

incredible, incredible models, really, and humans more so. And I met George, you know, and actually I went into George's trailer to rehearse the song and he actually forgot the words. So I was pleased that I'd learned them. And it just was, it was a magical day.

It was a magical day. And I literally wore my own clothes that I turned up in. Camilla, the stylist, you know, she said, oh, just wear that. I had long johns on, I think, and all my own clothes. And nothing happened that day. And then the producer came over to me and said, oh,

are you free tomorrow? Can you shoot tomorrow? Because we've got a wrap today. I said, sure. He said, you don't mind doing it for free? I said, yes, I do. I said, I don't know how much they're getting. And I was really, I was really sort of... You're lucky to be in this. It's working class though, but it was that sort of principle You're lucky to be in this. It's working class though, but it was that sort of principle thing. So I came back the next day and I had an orange and I was peeling an orange and David came over with George and said,

right, John, hi, nice to see you. What should we do? He said, I like the way you're peeling your orange. I said, well, last night I saw this great picture of Paul Newman outside the actor's center sat in the doorway looking at the script. He said, perfect. And he built me the frame and literally it was three takes and we had it done. Yeah. Cause you're lounging back.

And I did the orange in one peel and chucked it and it landed perfectly all in one. So I knew I was on the right track. Yeah. But was there a sense, nobody could have known like what, what a big deal that video was going to be. I mean, times were different. We lived in much more of a monoculture and MTV was important then. And when videos like this premiered, it was an event, right? And that video definitely struck a cultural chord at the time.

Yeah, I mean, I really just thought it was another job, which sounds very sort of, I hope it doesn't sound arrogant, but it was like another job and I was off to another job the next day. And I didn't realize the importance, the gravitas of it until I was working about three months later.

Because also in those days, which was lovely, there was an anticipation of seeing the work three months later and it wasn't immediate and it wasn't forgotten. And then it became, it sort of built its iconic status in a way. And you waited to see those things. And I was in a hotel shooting in a bar in Miami.

And suddenly the television was on in the back and it was MTV. And it came on and everyone just started bopping. And, oh, wow, wow. And I was like, okay, I think I'm in this if they haven't cut me out. And the opening scene, I think, is my nose. And then suddenly it happened. I thought, oh, that, wow. And I was like, okay, I think I'm in this if they haven't cut me out. And the opening scene, I think is my nose. And then suddenly it happened. I thought, oh, that's pretty good. You sing the first verse.

You're like the first person we see, I believe, right? Yeah, no, for sure, yeah. And then of course, it just became this phenomena which went on and on and to this day, and I really didn't understand the importance of it until later. to this day and I really didn't understand the importance of it until later. And, you know, when I, well, you know, I'm just really glad to be a part of it now.

Did you ever cross paths with George again after that? I saw him once in the Ivy and he was absolutely lovely. And I wish I'd seen him more. He was such a talent. He was so extraordinary. Oh, that's the other thing. When I met him for the first time, this is, I think it was just bravado. It's just boyish stuff. I went up, I said, oh, hello, George. I know you. I know all about you because our birthdays are two days apart,

but you're two years older than me. That was the first line I said to him. And he kind of looked back at me like, who's this strange person? But then we just, you know, we just got on really well. He was very warm. He was into it. And he was just right there

and he really wanted to make a statement. Over the course of your career, you've worked with essentially every great photographer. What is your sense of like what makes for a great image? And how do you think about like the myth making of those images? Because so many of the campaigns that you've been involved with are

really about telling a story or, you know, creating, you know, a sense of an aspirational lifestyle, right? That like inspires people. There's a dark side to it, I suppose as well, but there's something kind of really cool from a creative perspective to work with such talented people who kind of understand the power a creative perspective to work with such talented people who kind of understand the power of what they're creating? What was the question? Yeah, I don't know. It was really more like,

here's like I'm throwing you this ball. It's just more like something I wanna better understand, like just like working with these amazing image makers, like what makes them great? Like what, what is the difference between, you know, somebody who is utilitarian as a photographer and that person who just sees something that no one else sees and can capture that? It's, I mean, I work with everyone and I, like you say, and I've, I've worked at every level and I'm, you know, I've still to this this day i'm very grateful to work at the high level as well and do campaigns but it's when someone's got a signature and if someone's got a signature

of a look or the way they are they're very set in the way they want to produce something and they're concentrated and the environment around them is all on the same level of support then you just know you knew that you were in the company of people who would be doing something, would be photographing you in a way that elevated the whole day. And you knew you were in great hands and you learned from that.

And then you were free within that to sort of create. I was always looking to do stuff that was different because I got sick of looking at myself and you kind of and you just want to see what can I learn here. So I picked up, the people who are really amazing are the people that are concentrated and they really love what they do and they have a signature

which sort of separates them from the mass and they are sincere with that. And I just immediately think of Peter Lindbergh, who was extraordinary. He had such joy and he loved what he did. And he worked hard and he put everything into it. But he ran a set that was all, you know, focused on us all having a wonderful time

and also getting the great image that would stand the test of time. And they really, they do and they will. All his bitches are amazing. Yeah, yeah. And there's a few people like that. And we had great art directors. Fabian Baron, you know, was extraordinary.

And Trey Laird. And I worked with them on multiple campaigns and editorials. And they were characters and they really knew what they wanted. And they were ahead of the day. They were the pioneers. And so you just soak it all up and you learn to read a room that's what

you do you learn to read a room and you you learn to if there's you know i'm i'm very sensitive to people empathetic i think and and it for me it was really important as well and it is really important just to treat everyone with respect, no matter whether they're craft people or the people who were paying my bill. Yeah, well, I think that that must be part and parcel of your kind of longevity recipe, right? It's a, I mean, fashion is a youth obsessed culture and business.

You've been doing this for decades. You still book and you still work. I mean, you're unbelievably handsome and we all know that. You're a beautiful man, John, but ultimately I have to believe that, people wanna hire people they like to work with, but they've had good experiences working with in the past. And fashion I'm sure is sort of spitting out people

all the time who are handsome or beautiful or what have you, but are difficult or not team players and don't respect the process or whatever it is. So the fact that you're still so actively engaged in this world is a tribute, I think more to your kind of life philosophy or the manner in which you treat people. I mean, I've been around you enough to know what a lovely human you are and how curious you are about other people and

the kind of level of respect and care that you inject all of your interactions with. Yeah. I mean, I think, I think it's, um, I think it was always for me, one of the, one of the reasons was I just wanted to rebook. And I knew that was really interesting. So that was almost conscious. So there was an element of that which was, you know, being a salesman, I think. That came from my market days. And I think, but all, I mean, to me, I looked at magazines. And when I was in Italy, all these Americans were there.

And I hadn't really met Americans before. And they were all gymmed up and six-packed and everything else. And that was so not me. We were the sort of, you know, we prided ourselves, my little sort of motley crew of Europeans, our little tribe on, you know, Richard Burton and Peter O'Toole and drinking and going out and, you know, we don't go to the gym and all that sort of stuff,

which, you know, now I'm the age I am. I'm like, okay, I should have maybe looked after myself a bit more. But no, it was always about that. It's always about feeling good. It's always about raising the day. We're really fortunate to do what we do and to have the life and the places I've been and the people I've met. And it was just, well, I've got to have a good attitude with that. There's always going to be better looking. There's always going to be someone new on the block but for me it was always about connecting with the people on more than just the superficial level I wanted to really engage I am naturally curious in people's stories so you know I'm you know I'm just grateful that I'm here I literally

went from a young stud to a granddad you know I've done it all and it's kind of ridiculous but and I can't believe it i'm still here doing it occasionally but i really have a lot of joy in doing it now because i can help the young kids and i can tell the stories and it's different of course but you know you can you can it's just great i i feel it's great to be involved in a collaborative creative pursuits. And I think everyone who comes into that circle should be respected and should be given time and attention. You know, I think it's, I think, you know, we all, we all have a good time. Everyone's going to remember it. And you remember those moments 20 years later, someone will come up to me and say, Oh, thank you. You gave me this

advice and it really helped. And I can't remember it. But at the time, because you had a genuine connection, it meant something. Do you think part of that is a reaction to the fact that you didn't have anybody like that when you were a young person? Yeah, I do. Do you feel this obligation? Yeah, I do.

I do, I do. And I think part of my success, dare I say, as a performer, was in a way probably to get a validation or get an approval, you know, and maybe that's why I was really searching for it a lot. And so I managed to take care of everybody. But yes, I think it definitely has something to do with it, as well as wanting to have an extraordinary life.

Yeah. And now you have Mr. Feelgood as an outlet to express that curiosity, which I think is pretty cool. And probably on some level also, like looking for mentors or introducing an audience to people who can be mentors. Like I think about this podcast in a similar way in thinking about the lack of mentors that you had,

I was reflecting on my own life thinking, who were my mentors and realizing that I had a great dad, but it's often not the parent that you're looking to to be the mentor. And I had a bunch of really unhealthy people who were giving me not great advice as a young person, despite having a lot of opportunity. Like I didn't have a really good mentor. And I thought maybe this podcast is like this latent desire

to like continue to find those people that I didn't have when I was younger. And Mr. Feelgood obviously feels similar in that regard. Yeah, I mean, mentor, it's just such a vital part for a healthy mental and physical life as well. And I didn't have a mentor like you say, but I really remember consciously especially after my father died making all my best friends and i had a wide circle of friends i was really more so

engaged with trying to find a sort of hybrid of what a man should be so i i got very close with all their fathers and they were all amazing know, someone taught me about humor. Someone taught me about, you know, being professional, about dress, how you presented yourself. Someone, you know, made me want to read. So I sort of picked out this, made this sort of imaginary, not perfect man, but a pretty good man to navigate life from that.

And that was extraordinary. But at the same time, there was a sort of, you know, I was dealing with this grief of losing a parent without any kind of support. And so that was, I didn't want to infringe on my friends' relationships with their dads as well, you know. But the Mr. Feelgood is really a, yeah, it's a culmination born out of sort of

not being able to travel anymore and knowing all these people and having all these adventures and really being interested in people and in, you know, ways of thinking and of ways of living and making money and everything else. And it was really designed as a,

the genesis of it was as a pushback to the toxicity that we all were collectively experiencing during the pandemic and the political division but also just wanting to really put something out there that was positive that was helpful that unified people that and especially with men you know i grew up with all women but i'm equally happy in a car or room full of men but i was always quite open in my environment as well growing up talking about things that mattered feelings and you know it was kind of encouraged and I thought it was really important for men especially to communicate

properly and I don't care you know what your sexuality is what your socioeconomic background is your education i just think that if we all sat around a campfire in the mojave desert under a beautiful sky we're going to have a beautiful experience together and we're going to learn something so with mr feel good i continue to do it and enjoy it and thrive in it because i'm learning so much from the people it's like you it's like you you get these people in front of you and you can actually talk to them and learn stuff and it's and it's just so inspiring to me but at the same time it's so useful and as a father of three kids two boys and a girl you know it is it takes a village you

know it takes a village to raise your kids and i'm really aware of that and i'm really grateful for that as well because you know they look at me like dad what you're doing you know oh yeah dad you know oh dad you know but then if i talk like, Dad, what are you doing? You know, oh yeah, Dad, you know. Oh, Dad, you know. But then if I talk to a good friend of mine and he drops a little bit of advice, you see them open up

and I'm so grateful. It's funny how that works, right? Yeah. Like everything I do, my kids think is cringeworthy. Oh, yeah. Of course, right? It doesn't.

Well, imagine being a male model. Yeah, the level of shit that they must give you. Oh, man. Must be epic, right? Yeah, it is. But I think they, you know, they know when to stop

because I'll get too sensitive and insecure and they're like, back off from dad, you know. Mr. Feelgood is this pandemic baby, like you birthed this thing when we're all locked down and I'm sure you're trying to figure out how to exert your creative voice in a moment in which we can't travel and all of that. And I do think that there's something really necessary

and urgent about speaking to the mental health of men. Like there is, despite, look, there's a lot of progress and things have changed quite a bit, but there aren't quite the level of resources that are available for women in that regard. And I'm not sure there really is that sense of permissiveness that is required for men to engage in a vulnerable and real way with what we've sort of been taught our whole lives

to kind of repress like that advice to, look at your dad's tombstone and just push it down and move along. Like that is still probably the reigning paradigm when it comes to men and mental health. And if there's anything that I'm trying to speak to, it's kind of upending that paradigm. And that feels's anything, you know, that I'm trying to speak to, it's kind of upending that paradigm. And that feels very much at the heart of what you're, you know, attempting to do

as well. Yeah. I mean, it's what you do. It's what I do. It's, you know, there's some great people out there doing, and I think it's vital work for us all to sort of own every aspect of ourselves and try and deal with it. So yeah, no, absolutely. But you can't deliver that message in a clinical way. And I like how you've wrapped it in fashion and music with beautiful photography and storytelling and kind of this very specific interview style where you kind of ask the same questions to all of these guests.

So you're delivering a certain kind of product that feels more like a glossy fashion magazine, but with a certain heart and intentionality about it that doesn't exist in that world. Yeah. And that was really born out of when Pete Sampson, my co-founder of Mr. Feelgood, who's 20 year veteran Fleet Street journalist, you know, very smart. I knew him because his wife worked with my wife uh creatively and he so we knew each other a little bit but he came up to me just he called me just before lockdown and said can I have a word with you I want to talk to you about something I said sure I was interested I met him for lunch and he sort of had a rough idea of what Mr. Feelgood was he sort of conceived

it and he liked my writing on Instagram or something like that because it was honest, I suppose, and there was something to it. But really, I remember it so clearly. I was shopping around this thing that I'd written and produced an art show. And at the time, just before lockdown that I'd been working on for a couple of years but he it was the way he spoke to me and the way he was vulnerable he you know just stopped drinking and he was tired of doing the same old thing all the time being this you know this sort of reporter that went around the world and a little bit of sensationalism in there you know it's that sort of vibe and he was so

honest when he talked to me when he sat opposite me he was so open and he was vulnerable and he was not a guy usually i'd see him at airports and we'd you know smoking cigarettes having a drink at the bar and to see him in this position it just really took it really spoke to me and i said well let's develop it let's play let's see what we can do i love the idea and eventually originally he was just going to sort of use me as a front man as I've been used all these times and I could come in and come out and you know it was a sort of vanity project but the more I thought about it and exchange ideas with him the more I realized that it was something of value and it could be something that could really help and also I could know, I could utilize my experience on every level in various careers

or, you know, professions and the people, the relationships I built, which really for me, you know, in the nineties when I was in LA and I was, you know, really shooting everything, people used to talk about networking and I hated that phrase. I hated that word because it felt so insincere. It felt like it was sleazy and you're just going after something to get something. Yeah. And I just, you know, I don't want to be, I don't know why, but I just felt it was a bit dirty and I wanted to have a proper conversation. I wanted to connect with people. And if I said I do something for someone, I would absolutely do it. And I would today. It's just, it doesn't,

I don't second guess that at all. So I don't know. I think, I don't even know. Sorry, you've lost me. Yeah, just the idea of like, I think what you're getting at is you have decades of relationships that you've built organically

with the best of intentions over many years. And now you have this digital media project, you know, idea that you're trying to birth into the world. And you can tap into all of these people with whom you have tremendous goodwill because you've worked with them for many years. So you're able to like get these incredible photographers and you have access to talent and studio space

and all these sorts of things. Cause it's sort of like, I look at it like, well, I've been doing this 10 years and now we're in a place where we can have this studio and I can have people helping me and all this kind of stuff. But you come out of the gate and it's like, this is an expensive proposition. You know, like you're gonna, you wanna work with like top tier people

and deliver at the highest level. Like that doesn't happen cheaply. And you know, it's one thing to develop an audience over time where you can monetize it in a certain way and kind of square the budget, but you've bit off a lot and it's ambitious, right? So I'm interested in the business side of it and how you're making that work.

I mean, I know you have brands now who are coming in, who are supporting you and the legacy of your career has allowed people to step in and who believe supporting you and, you know, the legacy of your career has, you know, allowed people to step in and who believe in you and who are willing to support you. Yeah, I mean, I'm really fortunate and also I'm married to someone within the industry and, you know, we've forged genuine friendships and I hope respect for, certainly I have respect for the people around me, you know, over three decades. And so, and also we're at a period where, you know, over three decades. And also, we're at a period where, you know, photographers and teams want to work and they want to show their work without too

much interference. And I choose those people or those people come to me and, you know, because I want them to blossom as well. So, I want to give them space and a sort of page to do what they want to do. And we're just, I'm really grateful for all the teams. I mean, you know, I didn't think it'd happen like this, but I kind of had confidence in my relationships. And once we'd done a couple of issues and, you know, I opened with an interview with all the girls from the Freedom video agreed. It was the 30th anniversary. And I sort of tentatively, you know I opened with an interview with all the girls from the Freedom video agreed

it was the 30th anniversary and I sort of tentatively you know texted uh Christy Turlington and asked her if she would be interested and she was straight in and brought all the other girls and then spoke to Tatiana and they were so supportive you know and that was just like that's a very tantalizing way to launch yeah people are going to be interested in reading about that yeah it was it was the 30th anniversary of this iconic video. So as far as business goes, yeah, we're getting advertising. It's starting to come in, which is amazing. But we're also, you know, we're finding our way. We're trying to determine, and I say this and I feel vulnerable saying it, but we're trying to determine where we are, what exactly we will be. I just know that we're a community

that's building of great creators, but everyone is welcome having a great conversation and trying to learn and support one another and pull down prejudice and sort of have an open mind. I just want to learn. And I feel like all the people that are around us, working with us and for us are sort of in an open mind. I just want to learn. And I feel like all the people that are around us, working with us and for us, are sort of in that same vein, you know.

And I mean, I get letters every week from really good photographers and creative people wanting to work with us. It's just a case of, you know, we're not a big operation right now. So we're doing every single job. And that's another thing that I, it was a learning curve for me.

I had to, I mean a learning curve for me. I had to, I mean, and you helped me so much in this, in your conversations, because I had to break through so many comfort zones because I was the guy that was always helping everyone out and doing that. That's my natural, you know, personality, I think.

But also I suddenly had to work on a deadline. I had to be accountable. I had to write every week, you know. I had to be accountable. I had to write every week. I had to trust that I could walk onto a set, having been the model, the subject, and direct the set and make sure everyone did a great job. And they kind of, you know, be the creative director on that. So use everything that I'd seen firsthand

from the best professors in the cultural business and just trust that I could execute this and make the person feel good and relaxed and know that I'm after the truth of what they've got to say because that's what I value most. So it's a learning curve that continues to this day. I mean, it's never ending.

Well, I think, and I say this all the time, it's important, especially in the kind of nascent stages of anything creative that's ongoing like this is remaining open and flexible and being in that space of letting it tell you what it wants to be, like not being rigid and saying, this is what we're doing. Like, okay, here's what we're doing now,

but let's learn like, oh, maybe it would be cool if we move over here or we do this. And I've seen some evolution already with you. I think one of the things that we talked about early was originally it was photographs and written material, but you've evolved into, like you put it out as a podcast and you have YouTube videos. Like you kind of have to be everywhere now.

And I think we talked about how important video is. Like you can't, there's no way around it. Like you have to make that part of the thing. And that's an expensive proposition, you know, especially in the early phases of what you're trying to do. Yes, it is. And yes, you know, you can, you know, and obviously being, I kept a journal for 10 years,

but apart from that, and I was a big reader, as I said, so I was intimidated by what I read. So that stopped me from writing so much, you know. But going through this process of having to write and be accountable has been extraordinary. And yeah, I just, I don't know. We're just doing the best we can every day and, you know, slaying the dragons as they come. i'm i i'm i don't know whether i'm at that point where you are where you just kind of go with it i'm still like trying to keep all these plates spinning and have some degree of control um just because there's so

much to do you know i do everything so with it with you know with p, of course, and Alison as well. But I saw your thing the other day about 10 years, your 10-year anniversary. And I thought, wow, I'm just over two years in now of doing this 24-7, of working on this night and day, really. And I thought, oh my goodness, it's a long way to go. I've got a long way to go. Well, you have to create some kind of sustainability measures for yourself because you can't transmit

something you haven't got. And if part of the message or a big part of the message is self-care, mental health, et cetera, if you're on a track to burning out and you're not able to like exercise that yourself, then you can't transmit that message properly. You gotta practice what you preach. And it's something I've, you know,

I've run up against this myself. It becomes very difficult. Like all this wellness is making me unwell, right? All this talk about mental health is, is diseasing my mind, right? Like how do you strike that balance for yourself as an entrepreneur who's, you know, it's scrappy

and you got to like make it happen. It falls on your shoulders and all of that. Yeah. I mean, you, you, the way you put everything out just blows my mind, you know. Well, I have tons of people helping me now. I know, but you know, you've- It's evolved into- Yeah, I know. And it's very, very impressive and effective. With us, it's literally, you know, I shoot it on iphones for the most part and i send it to my nephew who's a film you know an actor and a film student in

london and he edits it with me or with us and uh it's very scrappy as you know because i interviewed you it's one iphone then and i still haven't gotten around to edit that yet um but but i understand the value so yeah so the value of you know i was writing these tomes to my interviews at the beginning and you know pete's sort of saying john 15 000 words is a bit too many let's bring it down to 1500 or 3000 and i was so protective because it was really important for me to get the essence of the human being and pete's a lot more thank goodness he's a great editor and he's pragmatic and he's factual and he's to the point.

Whereas I'm really a bit more, I don't know, emotional. And I want to really, I feel I need to connect with this human being. And I feel a great responsibility to the people that I interview as well as I'm sure you do. And so video is a way, I think it's just of

the zeitgeist now. It's of the movement. People get their information that way. So we're working on that now and improving that. And it's just a question of time and being able to do everything. And at the same time, bring up a family and provide for yourself and just crack on. So I'm learning as I go. I really am one foot in front of the other, trying to keep calm at many times, trying to learn how to look after myself within the chaos, which is challenging.

It really is challenging. But like you say, yeah, you've got to be well to really with integrity speak about wellness and hope to help other people, right? Yeah, I mean, for sure. And listen, I say that as somebody who's constantly out of balance. Like it's not anything that I have mastered

by any stretch of the imagination. I just know from experience and being massively out of balance at times, the pressures that that create and the level of dissonance that you feel as this person who has a sense of responsibility to the audience. It's sort of like, if you're out of balance,

how powerful is this message that you're putting out? It's gonna fall flat, like on a spiritual energetic level, right? It's not integrated. It's not in lockstep with who you are. So staying on top of that, I think is really important. And I think that goes back to what we were talking about in pictures, in stills and in videos.

For me, I always knew that if you had a good time and you really engaged with somebody and you got lost and you weren't afraid to be a fool and to be daft and to, you know, my responsibility, especially as I got older, was I really wanted to take care of the people who were in the photograph with me. I wanted to make them comfortable,

whether it's a girl or a kid or baby or whatever else, or another man, you know, you want to, and I think if you do that properly and you do that with genuine integrity, that transmits to the person who's looking at that picture. And that's just the way it is. And so, I always want to, no matter how tired I am, no matter how worn out I am, I want to be present.

I want to be real. Yeah, we talked about the other day when we got together, I was asking you about how you define success for yourself and family really is at the center of all of this for you, right? Yeah. And Mr. Feelgood is kind of a way of honoring that on some level tangentially,

like what's important to you in the work that you do and how you live your life. Yeah, it was really, it was crystal clear to me at an early age that I wanted to be present for my kids as a father. I wanted to really experience the full gamut of what being a father was. That's not very rock and roll, John.

I know it isn't. I know it isn't. I know it isn't. It isn't. No, it isn't. But I think I was probably so damaged from it or not really- The trauma of losing your dad at a young age.

I think that was it. And I just really felt that if I didn't, no, and I was really on a high with my life and my work and my career at this point. But I just thought if I didn't have a family, especially with my wife you know and have children and really put my time and energy into that it sounds so sanctimonious i don't mean to be sanctity it sounds so but it was really clear to me that that was important to me i wanted to

create what i didn't have i chose a partner who was came from the contrasting background who had that and it was really important that I live and my kids live in as much as a drama-free zone as possible where we could just breathe and go after what we want and have a good life. So that was really clear to me. And that kind of kept me grounded, I think. But how did you do that in the context of a career

where you have to go away and come back? It's not a nine to five thing where you drive down the street to an office and come home at dinnertime every day. I think it helped in a way. I think because my wife traveled as well and worked for magazines for Vogue and for Harper's Bazaar for years and still does. And not for them, but for other mags. But I think it sort of enriched the relationship. I go away and I have friends all over the world that have these rich, creative sort of experiences.

And I got to breathe and explore. And I came back and that was my story to tell. You know, that was my way of then giving everything when I was at home and everything when I was away. And being this like citizen of the world. Yeah. And it was really, you know, it was good. I think it was inspiring for my kids as well, to an extent. Or they grew up seeing this dad who was traveling here. But Ali, my wife, used to go away two months of a year to do the collections and go to New York, Paris, Milan, etc. And I would try and stay at home. And we had help at that time, but I was really conscious of being there.

And, you know, I really wanted to be a great dad. I don't know. I'm sure my kids would say I am. What are the ages now? You have one, you have a son at NYU, right? No, he's back. He graduated. He was at NYU Clive Davis School of Music.

That's Cooper. He's 26. Elliot's 23. And Marley is in New York. She's the only one away, and she's 19. Wow. So, you know, and, you know, they're incredible kids. They really are.

They're incredible people. They're better than what I could have expected. You know, I think it's down to my missus more than me. I think I'm the crazy one. But they're amazing people. They're the best people I know. They're extraordinary people. Don't get me started because I'll get my hankies out. Yeah. Well, and so from a dad perspective, like what do you think you did right to accomplish that? I don't know. I don't know.

What didn't I do wrong? I think, I really don't know. That's such a big question. I think I really don't know that's such a big question I think the way you treat your partner they pick up on that the way you treat other people they pick up on that I think

the way you deal with stress which at times especially when I we came back to America you know it's quite difficult for a little while they pick up on that and I think you just I think you really again America, you know, is quite difficult for a little while.

They pick up on that. And I think you just, I think you really, and again, I think it's really important to learn to listen and to, you know, especially now, especially when we're on phones all day long and there's so many distractions. I think it's really important to sit down at a dinner table and listen and have them with other grown-ups when they're little. And, you know, our house was the house that all the kids' friends came to,

sat around our table, and they all felt very, you know, free and able to speak, you know, talk about anything they wanted to talk about. Because I had a friend when I was eight years old who invited me to his house, and his family sort of took me in. And they, you know, allowed me to do that and that was subconsciously that became our home so I don't know what it is I think it's partly who they are anyway what they're born with and it's not perfect by any means but it's just a work in progress and and ultimately ultimately it's about love you know it's about being there for somebody I mean my it it's just being there and knowing when to step back and let them be them and let them express themselves

and let them, you know, confide in you or not confide in you, giving them that space and respect. You know, that's kind of what it feels like we do. Yeah, on some level modeling, quote unquote, a healthy masculinity, right? And masculinity being kind of, you know, it's interesting. Like I wanna dive into this idea of masculinity because what you do for a living

and what you get paid to do is a version of modeling a type of masculinity that like spills out into popular culture. And then Mr. Feelgood is a way of modeling a type of masculinity that like spills out into popular culture. And then Mr. Feelgood is a way of modeling like a, and that's a voiceless thing. The mind is like, there's no, you don't have a voice in that. You have an image, it's true, right?

Yeah, no, it's true, yeah. So Mr. Feelgood is almost like the antidote to that. I wanna express myself and here's how I think about masculinity in a healthy way in the context of a culture in which there's too much toxic masculinity. Like, how do you think about that issue and how you kind of shoulder the responsibility

for being an example of a healthy male in a world in which you think a lot about mentors and the kind of message that you're putting out into the world? I think it's, you know, also with the work I do and did for so long, you know, it's, I didn't have a voice, but I did have a voice in a way between the clicks of the camera. I never, I rarely felt insecure because I wouldn't allow myself to feel insecure because I knew I was the center of attention. And perhaps I clothed that in a way that made me who I was on set and made me want to get the approval to some degree and make everyone feel good. It's, you know, it's funny. I've just shot these five gentlemen for Mr. Feel Good,

and they're from all different walks of life. And it's incredibly incredible how some of them are very awkward in front of the camera. And I understand that. But and they all say, wow, it's really hard work. I didn't realize how hard the work was. And it doesn't seem like it is from the outside. But when you're sort of firing on 12 cylinders and you really want to be present, it's proper graft, it's proper work. They all confirmed that this last week, which is interesting.

So, but yes, I mean, Mr. Feelgood really was a vehicle for me to use what I've learned and express and learn more about having a voice and having a purpose and doing something which has, you know, foundations that hopefully will spill out and support other people who are feeling lost,

especially men, you know. We try and make it that it's not too woo-woo. We want it to be pragmatic. We want to, I mean, at the moment, we're gratefully interviewing the fantastic actors, but I'm really interested in talking to people who aren't famous. Everyone's got a story

and I just think it's really important to have a conversation that's- Yeah, I mean, you have an eclectic mix of people like you had Scott Galloway on, obviously, you know, cares a lot about these issues with respect to young males and kind of what's happening. And even, you know, the architect who built the- Yeah, Niccolo.

Yeah, what is that BB, like that architecture you built like- Binnie Shells, yeah. Right, Robert Downey Jr. And it's a sustainable building material. Amazing. That's very cool. Amazing, amazing Downey Jr. And it's a sustainable building material. Amazing. That's very cool. Amazing.

Amazing men. Amazing. Yeah, and they, you know, so I'm trying to get broader in that and I want more wellness. How do you like make that selection or curate that experience? That's something I think about as well.

Like when you're thinking like, who can I get or who should I get? Like, I just know in the evolution of this show, it went from me begging, borrowing and stealing just to convince anybody to sit down with me to now thinking more about like who's, it's not like who wants to do it or who I can get. It's like, who's the right person?

Yeah, of course. Yeah. Well, for me, I mean, it's, you know, at the beginning it was just who I knew. And then it was people that I really had my eyes on and admired, like Scott, like you. And just, you know, it was a case of actually finding a way. And I'm relentless when it comes to that.

I'm very good at writing letters. I could have a whole book on the love letters I've sent to people. And I mean it. I mean, I really do. I want to sit down and talk to these people. And I think if you're persistent, and I mean, I really do. I want to sit down and talk to these people. And I think if you're persistent, and I am, and if you think they'll add value to the sort of the big picture, then, you know, I'll just DM them. I'll find a friend who knows them. I'll find out who their agent is,

you know. Oh, there's some great people out there that I'm desperate to talk to, you know, that I really want to talk to. So you just find a way. If you've got the will, you find the way. So I think going back to the sort of masculinity thing, I think that's something that today I'm still trying to work with and I'm trying to find, you know, you can't be all things to all people, but I'm trying to find ways that I can expose or not expose I can celebrate I like to say that help me and that thus help the audience at Mr. Feelgood

so I'm really looking to have those conversations and to learn I want to learn you know I'm my mom's 88 she's relentlessly curious so she really is you know, and I've inherited that. And I just, there's so much out there and there's so much I don't know. I really don't know. And I'm trying to figure out the best way to live with the most amount of peace of love and a growing kind of satisfaction that we're actually doing something of value. Does that make sense? Yeah, for sure. Does that make sense? Yeah, for sure. You know, look, we're of a certain age, we're Gen X guys, right?

Yeah, we are. And when I think about, yeah, right? That's fucking cool, too, right? It is cool, yeah, man. Yeah. For sure it is now. But it's very not Gen X to be, you know, kind of vulnerable and wear your emotions on your sleeve, which is, you know, kind of vulnerable and wear your emotions on your sleeve,

which is, you know, kind of what I do. Like, you know, to be Gen X is to be disaffected and to be ironic and all of that. Which we can be, right? We can turn that on. We're grown up Gen X, right? But reflecting on, you know, the generations that are coming up underneath us,

I think the idea like young men, like it is a more confusing time. Like we grew up in an analog world, right? And that we've, we're one of the last generations of people to kind of traverse from analog to digital. But our formative years were pre-computer completely, right? And now I think we're in a confusing state for a lot of men where there's expectations

for them to be strong, be the provider, like to kind of like inhabit the traditional sense of what it is to be masculine. And yet also to be the sensitive person, the person who goes to all the school events on weekdays at two o'clock in the afternoon and who is caring and like somebody who has to fire on all cylinders, right?

And there's an expectation level that I think is difficult for anybody to live up to essentially. And when you kind of step down into even the younger generations who are dealing with how to date and that's all digital now with these apps and all that kind of stuff. And this is something Scott Galloway talks quite a bit about like, I think it's really hard.

And we're at a certain age where we don't have direct experience with those sorts of things. So how do you think about lending a hand or being a mentor or communicating helpful information to that person who is trying to navigate all of those landmines? It's tough, it's tough. I think our sons have to, and their tribes have to learn

to be vulnerable and be connected as a community and to not have too many expectations because there are a lot of expectations on them. It is different world I think it's very difficult I think I think they're also very smart a lot of them and they can figure it out and things that I worry about for them they aren't even worrying about because they're if they're focused if they if they're fortunate enough to have something they love to do have a purpose or a goal, or be passionate about something, I think that helps them a lot to direct the focus and to move forward as they go into life as a young adult. But you can't manufacture that for anybody.

No. Especially your kids. No, unfortunately. You can expose them to lots of different things and just hope that something connects with them and lights them up in that way. Yeah, it's true. I mean, it's a work in progress, you know,

and I think all we try and do is be open but provide a safe space where they can explore those kind of feelings and worries and advise them on what we know and what we've experienced in an ever-changing world where they can then sort of bespoke it if they're able. And all my kids personally, our kids are, you know, they're pretty, the greatest,

really one of the greatest things of my life is that my kids know who they are. And I think that's, you know, a lot more than I did at that age. I think the French say comfortable in their own skin. That's like you're on the 10-yard line if you have that.

Yeah, yeah. And I'm really, I stand back and I watch them and I observe them in company and the way they sort of address the issues of the day, their own personal challenges. And I feel really just so grateful

that they've got that. And I think it probably comes from my wife's family's side. But I think that's a marvelous thing. That's a real blessing. I think it's tough out there. I really think it's tough out there. And I by no means have an answer for you that's eloquent or rooted for you yet, in all honesty. But I also want to engage.

And as we grow younger people into mr feelgood i want to bring them into their sort of fold and have them right for me and a couple of them do already and just sort of the idea of having sitting around a table with these kids you know 12 men i want you to do this with me at some point but 12 really interesting men who can sit around and we can talk and we can listen. And I think community, when you build community, and especially of men, I think that's a really powerful thing. I think to sit and to be listened and to be heard is a really powerful thing. And especially in a circle of men who are trying to do the right thing, who are trying to calibrate

this ever-changing sort of world. I think that's really vital, but I certainly don't have the answers, but I'm determined to try and help and contribute in some way. Yeah, I mean, vital is the right word. I mean, I've been lucky enough to be parts of groups like that through recovery

and also through other therapeutic modalities. And it's been absolutely transformative for me. But I'm also aware that it's not the experience of most people, most men, right? And I think a lot of men suffer in silence and they just carry on and push it all down until something one day breaks or explodes. And I think that's the more typical experience.

And to the extent that there are solutions for people who are in that state, like I wanna be participating in that. Because I think it's chronic, honestly. And there is an epidemic of mental health disorders that it's not unique to men, but I think there is something about men where it's not talked about to the extent that it should be

and getting help is not as permissive as it should be. And it should be. And we should all, you know, we should take time to reach out to our community and put the effort and the energy into building these sort of creating these situations where we can all exchange where you know we can sort of feel safe to talk about i mean the whole vulnerable thing that's a really sort of mysterious one for me i know it's important. I know it's valuable. And I never really recognized my own acute vulnerability until I started doing Mr. Feelgood. I had episodes,

but consistently being accountable and having to do this after having had an agent who just said, this is the flight, this is how much, there you are, you know and i i i still i'm still really curious about the whole vulnerable thing and you know when to be restrained when to be open what value will that give the person i'm sitting with you know and i still my yorkshire roots are like no man up man up you know don't talk there's certainly don't be soft you know and that stuff, but you won't survive. You won't survive. You'll self-medicate, you'll drink, whatever your drug of choice is, or you'll just implode and you'll freak out and you'll do something stupid. And I think we have to change that. Maybe it's in education.

You know, maybe it's having people like you and Scott, myself, perhaps, you know, going in and talking about this, actually delivering lessons on this sort of thing, actually going into the education system. And I do think doing retreats with fellas, with men, is really good, young guys and older guys. And I think there's a lot to be said for taking sage advice from those who came before us.

Even though they lived in a more closed off sort of or a more one-dimensional idea of masculinity, I was brought up to respect my elders. And I was lucky because when my parents divorced, I'd go and see my father and he'd always do meals on wheels and he'd take me around delivering food to the elderly and most of these guys had just come out and ladies had come out of the second world war they were the last and it was fascinating to engage with their sort of stoicism and their dignity and i think you know i learned a lot about listening to people then and and uh i think i think we have to do something about it i think we have to engage i

think we have to sort of join forces and you know create something that really does because the important thing is a lot of people sort of start doing these things but it's the it's it's being there for the long ride which is important and especially in this day and age when everything's so disjointed and quick and we're overcome with sort of information. I think to be consistent is really a great quality to have. And I think, you know, if you're mentoring someone, you're in it for life. Yeah.

You know, you should be and you'll reap benefits, you know, but really it's, you can't just do it for a day. You can't give a bit of advice and think it's done. You have to be consistent. Yeah, and set against a culture in which everything is ephemeral, like everything disappears like tissue paper on fire

from one day to the next. The idea of consistently showing up and that accountability piece I think is super important. And listen, you touched on listening. I mean, I think that is at the key cornerstone of everything. I think we've lost our appreciation for listening. And I think we're seeing that in the denigration

of the national conversation and our inability to kind of sit with people who see the world differently from us as our information silos continue to separate increasingly. And it's a confusing time, right? And to the extent that being vulnerable is somehow curative, it's also important to check your motivations behind that vulnerability,

because there is something called performative vulnerability that we're seeing on social media. And I don't think that that is helpful either. It's sort of like, what is helpful to somebody else in how I communicate from a place of honesty and integrity versus let me tell you some crazy story

that is horrific and embarrassing for the purpose of just shock value or creating attention around yourself. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I think it's a day by day, moment by moment challenge to be present, to be really present with somebody, to listen to somebody,

to social media, man. I mean, it's a tough one. It's a tough one and it's great in one. And it's great in many ways. But, you know, being a father of a daughter, you know, my boys aren't really, they're not at all involved, but my daughter's young and she's brilliant. And, you know, to see what they go through, really,

when they engage with it, it's tough, you know? So I just think ultimately, we've got to keep being present and available and listening to people and trust that we'll find the seeds of something that will help all of us benefit. Because I think all of us, whatever age we are, it's tiresome, it's exhausting.

And I think we've just got to, part of our lives have to be grounded. Part of our lives have to be, for us to survive, for us to thrive, part of our lives just have to be connected and on a really, you know, authentic level of, you know, the only thing I know is love. You know, that's the thing that always comes back to me. the only thing I know is love. You know, that's the thing that always comes back to me. The only thing I know is really the love I have for my family, for my friends, for nature, for music, for people who I admire.

And that's sort of the one certainty for me. And I really don't have the answers, but I try and go into the day, every day I really do with that in mind, knowing that I'll get through, knowing that I'll find a way, having hope with that, which a lot of kids struggle with, of course.

And when I do that, when I overcome my fears or my doubts or my overthinking or everything else, I mean, it always works. It always seems to energizes me in a way that makes me feel good. Yeah. You know?

Mr. Feelgood. Mr. Feelgood, baby. I don't know. I don't know. It's kind of just come out of it, really. You're a spiritual seeker though too, right? I know that you're super curious about all different forms of spiritual wisdom.

Weren't you doing a project with Satguru or a documentary or something like that? Yeah, no, well, I did. I did a project with Satguru or a documentary or something like that? Yeah, no, well, I did. I did a retreat with Satguru and I was into yoga. I mean, it started very early when I was literally 12 years old at school in England, they gave you a Gideon Bible. And at the back of the Gideon Bible,

there was a calendar scheduled to read a verse or 10 verses every night. And in a year, you'd read the whole thing. And I read it every single, religiously, no pun intended, every single night. And I was really interested in that. And then we moved into a different house and my next door neighbors, there are three boys and a single mom, and they were Jehovah's Witnesses. So I took on being a Jehovah's Witness at the age of 12 or 13 and went door to door, knocking on the door. You did. You were one of those kids. Yeah, I was. Yeah, I was. And it was, it was, it was, it was when my sister

got into a car accident and needed a blood transfusion and that kind of, that kind of turned me away. Plus I got to 14 and 15 and I like girls, you know, and I was like, okay, this is a bit too, you know, too restricting for me. But I was naturally a seeker and I am to this day. And so, you know, I did various things. I read many, many books on various religions and Carl Jung and Buddhism and Zen and, you know, Hinduism, everything. I was just really like a sponge, wanted to take it in. With Sadhguru, it was just really extraordinary because a friend of mine practiced with him regularly

and she invited me to see him speak. And actually when I saw him speak, I wasn't, didn't fix me. It didn't, it was a certain set of people and I thought it wasn't- The artifice around the, I've sat at the feet of many, not with Sakuru, but lots of other people from that kind of world and universe.

And there is something about all the energy around that person that's difficult to kind of get past. It was. And gauge like, is this real? Yeah. Is this wisdom legitimate? Yeah. Is this an artifice? Like what is actually going on here?

Yeah, it was really interesting. I mean, doing the yoga for, I think we were doing it, you know, four o'clock in the morning, getting up and doing it, and I'm not very flexible. You know, my mom at 88 can touch her toes after having both a hip stunt,

a week after having a hip stunt. I did hot yoga for four years. I still can't touch my toes after having both a hip stunt a week after having a hip stunt i'm i did hot yoga for four years i still can't touch my toes you know um that aspect of it was challenging but also you know just trying to figure out what was going on and everything that you say it was the same thing it was it was interesting and then i i was really obsessed because i really wanted to talk to her and i wanted to know more. So I reached out to someone at OWN and we were preparing to, you know, I was trying to- Oh, you mean Oprah's network?

Oprah's thing, yeah. We were preparing to actually go and sort of, you know, get in there and have me find out about this and discover this and, you know, ask him questions. Tough questions, I think. And then I think discovery came and bought it out and it all fell to pieces and that was that.

But, you know, my time with him, and I want to interview him, that's on the cards, was extraordinary in many ways. You know, so you learn from every experience, or I try and learn from every experience that I have and everyone who's sat in front of me and you know there's no there's no way there's no one way there's it's it's a culmination of everything that you absorb in the environment around you and just trying to focus on the best

of that to help propel you through another day you know I'll help you feel more equipped to help propel you through another day, you know, or help you feel more equipped to help those around you. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. You know, I'm curious about what that looks like for you now. Like, how does that translate into a daily practice? You know what? Or it doesn't. It does and it doesn't. And I'm, you know, I mean, you said earlier about when you feel challenged, I'm presuming, correct me if I'm wrong, that you get on your bike or you go for a swim or you go for a run and that's when you feel,

I used to do it sort of on my motorbike, but it's not working at the moment. I did TM for two years religiously twice a day and that started to get really good, but then I dropped it. You got the mantra and the whole thing. Well, I got the mantra, I did that. And then-

Who did you do the training with? I did it in Santa Monica. You did? No, I didn't. With Bob Roth? No, no, no, no, no. No, I did it with this one gentleman. It was actually, sorry, it wasn't Santa Monica.

It was Beverly Hills. And I was really determined to make this a part of my life. And I'm a massive David Lynch fan. And at times it was wonderful because my boys just naturally came and started to do it with me. And that was a really beautiful thing to have in our house, to sit there for 20 minutes in silence. And that really opened their eyes to that sort of practice and those sort of learning those modalities to help them improve their sort of well-being. And then I dropped out and then I forgot my mantra. I was like, what is it?

It was some kind of about a year and a half. I was very busy, man. I was everywhere. But it was an hour and a half. It was sort of... Is there some sort of policy like when you forget your password, you can retrieve it and have it locked down somewhere? Yeah.

No, no. So, a year passed and I thought, I've got to get back into this password yes you can retrieve it yes lock down somewhere yeah no no so that's what you know so i saw a year passed and i thought i've got to get back into this because i've got to carve myself some personal space every day because otherwise i'm a headless chicken you know yeah and so and i think it was a sanskrit word the original one and you're not allowed to say which one it was obviously and so i went back to tm i contacted them, and I said, could you give me another mantra? They said, oh, you have to find the original guy who initiated you.

So I found the guy, eventually he'd moved out of LA, he'd gone down south, and I drove there, sort of Long Beach way, and I went that way, and we went in, and he sort of renewed, and we went through the whole thing again. And then he gave me a mantra. And it wasn't Sanskrit at all. It was really rudimentary.

It was like, you know, I'm not going to say, but it was there is a basic thing. And that made me realize that within that practice, it's really the word is just there to bring you back. It's just a grounder. It's not got any magical properties. It's just a grounder. And that just works with the sort of neurochemistry

of the way your brain works and fires. So, but again, you know, I carried for a while and practiced for a while and then life took over me. And so now I'm trying to, you know, I'm ready to sort of get on that thing again, you know, get on that. I want to, I mean, now literally I get up at five in the morning and I go and sit outside and I have an hour of quiet on my own. And I write and, or I just, I'm just grateful.

I just try and be grateful for my family, for a roof over my head, for food, for my children, for my friends. And, you know, but I'd really, I need to, I do feel a longing to sort of have something that can be with me consistently forever. You know, that sort of magic practice or not magic practice, but again, it's owning the fact that you should look after yourself. You should look after yourself. You've got, I mean, even in the shower, I'm like,

you know, I'm 57 years old, man, I've been lucky. And my body's, you know, I'm no, you know, male model with a six pack, but, but I'm, you know the most successful no but you know but i'm i i look at my body and it's a vehicle and a vessel and i think aren't we lucky to be in this car this vehicle for all these years and it's really worked pretty well for me given you know the amount of sort of hammering it's taken i don't mean sort of through drink and all the rest of it. I'm talking about, you know, just different plane time zones, just the amount of energy that we put out into the world every day and the things we deal with and the plates were spinning and the sort of forward motion, the momentum of life. I'm really amazed that, you know, and I'm really grateful, touch wood that I'm in, you know, good health'm really grateful, touch wood, that I'm in good health.

Yeah, well, I think gratitude seems to come easy for you. That is a natural disposition for you. It's far more elusive for me. Is it really? It is, like I could use a gratitude accountability partner in the way that perhaps you could use a meditation accountability partner. And I really believe,

I believe like I'm happy to be that person for you. Oh, wow. Gratitude is not something I connect with naturally. It requires a lot of intentionality and effort on my part to really feel that in myself. But I am very aware of trying to bring, trying to create integrity between how I'm living my life and how I'm expressing myself publicly

in the work that I do. Yeah. And I really think that for you, and this is a reminder to myself as well, that the greater alignment that you can create between those two things, like if you can really like dial up the meditation and the self-care piece and all of that, it does translate into the,

like the success and the extent to which Mr. Feelgood will connect in a meaningful way with an audience is directly calibrated to, you know, how much you are living those principles in your own life, right? And this is something that's hard, right? Especially when you're up against it and you would share like you were up late last night

trying to get this thing completed and out and all of that, like I relate to all of that. And we get like calcified or wed to like this, it has to be done like this. And I'm the only one who knows how to do it. And if I have to stay up all night and whatever. Yeah, macro managing, yeah. But like the magic is in the letting go and in the empowering over the people

and in the like kind of the, like prioritizing your self care over like those little details that actually don't matter. Yeah. You know, that's a, it's tough. Yeah. Right? Yeah, it is. I can't, you see for me, I'm so grateful for you.

I really am. I'm so grateful for what you do in this world and the way you do it. And, you know, you've been an enormous sort of pioneer and leader in what you do because you're so authentic. and a leader in what you do because you're so authentic. And it surprises me that you're challenged by that because I feel like you're, you know, you should be. But when you say that, I get very defensive. No, I feel it. Yeah, I saw your body twitch.

It's very uncomfortable for me to hear that. I know, but after what you've gone through and what you've done with your life, I feel that you should be. I'm very uncomfortable being held out to to being any kind of like ideal or you know paragon of any of these notions I hear that I get that messy work in progress yeah well I'm in your club baby I'm the same I'm just trying to figure it out I'm trying to learn I'm trying to balance I'm trying to walk the walk you know um I think it's really important to look after yourself. And I'm most of the time I'm running and doing other things, you know, and I'm not, I'm not prioritizing,

I'm trying to work out that discipline. And to really accept it as something that I can only be of genuine value if I live these principles, if I practice them and forgive myself when I don't, you know, when I fall off, that's a massive thing. That's like vulnerability is self-love, self-forgiveness. I mean, self-love, saying that, you know, it still does an echo there, a shadow of, you know, self-love, you know, it's all about, you know, don't be so selfish or don't be so stupid. Don't talk about yourself, lad. Come on, crack on. And so, I think it's, you know it's all about you know don't be so selfish or don't be so stupid don't talk about yourself lad come on crack on and so i i think it's you know we just gotta i just keep going and and uh i want to get to a place where there's a little more control but at the same time i

understand that there's so little control really you can only just do the best you can do yeah so how do you balance the ambitions that you have for yourself creatively, professionally with Mr. Feelgood versus like being really grateful in the present moment and freeing yourself or unshackling yourself from a desire or a sense that it needs to be any different than it already is. Cool, that's a big one.

Because like your life's pretty good. Yeah, it is. As is mine. Yeah, no, it's good, but there's always room for growth and you've got to make an effort. You know, you've got to, we've got to also, I think what we also have to do

is have a bit more laughter, you know, in life. I think we have to get lost a bit have a bit more laughter you know in life I think we have to get lost a bit as well but within the joy that's healthy and that's you know and I think that comes with being with people as well I mean I've got so many people I see who are so stressed friends and people acquaintances and everyone needs to just really relax a bit and have some fun and have a giggle you know know, I mean, giggle therapy, we should do giggle therapy with some stand up guys, you know, and, and, and we've we've got to,

I've got to be, I've got to learn to let go more, and allow for things to happen. And that is sometimes it's easy. And sometimes it's not. But when I do it, generally, it's just energizing and it's brilliant. And you feel good the other day, the next day, you know, you feel good about what you do. So it's a work in progress, a messy work in progress. And there's no, I've got no formula. At the moment, we're a startup, we're grafting, we're moving. Sometimes I, you know, I question question it but i push through it because also i've got two other people that are working with this me and then this you know we're an outlet

for a lot of people in different countries now and i think that's you know you've got to stay in the game and you've got to try and evolve in a way that becomes lean and more and more authentic and more and more of value. And I mean real value. I don't mean dollars and cents. I'm talking about the real value of the stuff that we all connect with and we're all looking for and we all need.

So that's what I'm doing. I've got no, I wish I had better answers for you, but it's really, it's just really, you know, it's really, I don't even want to say we're up against it because I don't want to sort of put it in that label on it. But because we're not, because we're here and we're lucky and we should be grateful because we've, you know, we're not in the trenches.

We're not in the trenches. We're out here living the best life we can, pursuing a dream and an ambition and an intention. And I think we should be really grateful just for that and for fresh air and for the ocean and all that sort of stuff. But yeah, I'm a work in progress. I'm trying to do the best I can.

I'm trying to, if something tells me in my gut that it's right, then I follow it. And whether it's a conversation or, you know, an action or I just really trust that. Have you always trusted that or have you learned to trust it? And how do you know when to trust it? That's a good one. My gut has been unreliable in the past. And the way I've thought about it is that the trustworthiness of that gut instinct has a lot to do with, it's back to that integrity thing.

Like how much is the way in which I'm living matching up with the values that I aspire to inhabit? You know, if I'm out of balance with that, then my instincts are probably going to lead me towards a bad decision versus a good one. Wow, wow, you're so self-aware, man. You're evolved. Only through making bad decisions and being in pain,

I assure you. Yeah, but that's just to be aware of that and to have the support of your mentors. You know, I mean, I wish, I would love to have mentors. I would love to be in that group of people that allow for every aspect of my character. You can. All you have to do is drink yourself into oblivion and destroy your life first.

And then you will be welcome in. I guess. Well, I don't drink anymore. That's been over two years now. And that's helped in a way. Tell me about that. Well, I just, you know, no one drinks in our house and my kids don't drink and my wife doesn't drink. I mean, she's probably had five gin and tonics in

all the years I've known her. And I wasn't a big drinker, but I could drink, you know, and it's part of the culture I grew up in. And then when we went into lockdown, I found myself drinking a bottle of wine on my own every night. And apart from the fact that it made me snore, and that was kind of pretty obnoxious, I think, for my wife. I just thought, oh, stop, you know, I'll give it a couple of days. So, and I think also, in all honesty, I think I was grumpy and I think I was probably insensitive when I drank and I wasn't as jolly and life and soul as a party of perhaps I thought I was grumpy and I think I was probably insensitive when I drank and I wasn't as jolly

and life and soul as a party of perhaps I thought I was and I realized it wasn't fair especially when you're locked in you're incubated in this small space and we didn't know what was going on so I stopped on the 14th of June 2020 I think it was and I thought I'll do it for a couple of you know days and then it came to the weekend and then 11 days later it was I think you was and I thought I'll do it for a couple of you know days and then it came to the weekend and then 11 days later it was I think you know I was coming up to a birthday and I realized that I hadn't not drunk on my birthday for over 40 years I thought that's weird so I got through that and then I just sort of got into the rhythm of it you know and I like the idea that I had control over something um you know that that that the whole family. And then when we

started to open up, I went to a friend's house, we met, you know, with distance and masks, and we met outside. And he has extraordinary wine and tequila. And he offered me both and I sort of was about to and then I pulled back and said no let me see you know and and it was fine and since then it's you know it's it's it's been fine and I you know and it's it's and I don't know whether I've had any eureka moments of oh this is what it's all about and any epiphanies but it's it was a control thing I think And it was also out of respect for my family. And, you know, my kids don't drink. My boys don't drink.

They don't, you know, which is extraordinary. I was 12 hours drinking. It is interesting that generation doesn't have the same relationship with alcohol that our generation did. Like I've been out in lots of, you know, kind of bars on the East side with the boys playing gigs and, you know, all these different venues around LA, kind of the hip where like a lot of 20 somethings

are hanging out. And every time I look at Julian, I'm like, nobody's drinking or maybe like, you know, like maybe 10 to 15% of the people have a beer in their hand that they're nursing. And that's just not what it was like when we were that age, you know, being out, right? It was, you know. I mean, I'm sure there's a whole litany of other drugs

that they're more interested in, but the thing with alcohol is very different. Yeah, I mean, it was really cultural for us. You know, it was cultural. It was out there on films and rock bands and, you know, it was just part of the course of growing up and becoming a man. You know, eight pints and then we ate the whiskey, you know, and it was just part of the course of growing up and becoming a man you know eight pints and then we ate the whiskey you know and it was that kind of thing and how you know I think

there's probably in my 40s when my metabolism started to change drastically there was an element of vanity as well that I thought you know I got to keep in shape for my work and also I want to clear head so you stop doing it but we we we really we really were born into a culture you know new york it was rolling rocks as many as you can you know down in an evening and it was all that sort of stuff what were your bars in new york when you live there oh i was i mean i was chica's locust was the club that i used to go to in tribeca and nels and bar spring spring street lounge you remember that one on the corner of in Tribeca and Nell's and Spring Street Lounge. Do you remember that one on the corner of Mulberry and Spring?

That was a great afternoon drinking place. No, I never went there. Oh, that was great. It's all gentrified now. It was a really good time then in the 80s. Nell's, Lucky Strike. Lucky Strike, Friday and Saturday. I know it has, hasn't it?

I just saw that last year. No, that was my best mates who followed me to America with DJs there. So that was my spot. That was my spot. I love that spot. We had so much fun in that spot, you know. But I mean, it was just,

I think we've got to learn what our limits are and how we want to create our life, right? And so at some point you make that decision i don't know whether i'll you know i might drink again at some point you know it was there was this romantic idea i had that one day i could introduce my boys to a glass of wine and you know we could do that they thought of european they europeans grow up drinking and that's that but you know i'm grateful that they're not interested, that they're not bothered about it.

I think it's amazing. I think they realized a lot earlier the value through sports as well, which has been amazing for them, but the value of really taking care of yourself. And I think that's a positive of what they've been exposed to, having access to sort of YouTube podcasts like yourself. Well, it's interesting and curious and fascinating to me, they've been exposed to having access to sort of YouTube podcasts like yourself. It's interesting and curious and fascinating to me, the idea of somebody who isn't an alcoholic

parting ways with alcohol. Cause I'm steeped in the world of people whose lives have been decimated as a result of drugs and alcohol and the process of what that breakup looks like and piecing your life back together. But the idea of somebody who really isn't a problem drinker like breaking up with alcohol, I think is super interesting

and is also a newer kind of cultural phenomenon that didn't quite exist. Like I had a podcast with this guy, Andy Romage years ago, who's a British former professional football player turned banker and trader. Wow. Who was living that lifestyle in London where it's all about going out after work.

Wall Street. Yeah, exactly. And had this epiphany that it wasn't working out for him and bucked the trend of his industry and decided that he wasn't gonna drink anymore and created this community and movement called One Year No Beer. And he wrote this book about it. Maybe you've seen it. I guess it's a big thing in the UK. I don't know, but I want to read it. But it's really oriented around people who are not alcoholics, but whose lives can be improved by not drinking anymore and all the benefits of that

and creating support for the non-problematic drinker to have a healthier lifestyle. And I think there's something really cool about that. I think that's superb. I haven't actually heard of that, but I'd love to look into that. I think for me, it was out of respect for my family and it was out of respect of the situation,

this weird situation that we're all collectively in, you know, being on lockdown. And it was control. It was, I couldn't travel anymore. I couldn't work anymore. I had to- And your whole, like, that's how you get your sustenance. Yeah.

Yeah, that really is it. You know, I go away. I get my, you know, I get my fix of travel, of adventure, of other people, of culture. And then I come home and I try and deliver and, you know, employ that in being a good dad, you know, and being a good, decent partner. And I think I just wanted to, I think I was,

it became too habitual. And I think if it's a negative habit, I think you have to challenge that at some point because otherwise you're going to be in the same rut over and over and over again. And I just really wanted to, I wanted to have a bit of control over my life. And I think that gave me a goal, you know, to do it,

to have a good day and then I'll get through a day. And yeah, I did okay. And in the morning, I wasn't snoring. I wasn't sort of feeling stinky or whatever else and had a clearer head in the morning and then was able to, at that point, meditate because there was a bit more time. And that was just before I started Mr. Feelgood.

I was just sort of figuring it out with Pete where we were going, designing the ideas that we wanted to run with. So I love that idea though. I must read that book. I love that idea. And that was really brave of him. That was really brave to actually,

I would say from my point of view, to be in that environment, that sort of pack, brat pack, whatever you want to call it. Yeah, I think that probably was the hardest part for him because that was the culture of his profession. Yeah, completely. I think that's probably true for a lot of people.

Completely. And also, you know, in the old days, the football profession as well, it was, you know, there was, you know, half time and you had a cup of tea and a cigarette, you know, and then went out and played another 45 minutes. And now, of course, everyone's got so much information and they're so conscious of being athletes

and having to perform the top game, always bringing their top game that you have to look after yourself. So I think it's really interesting. How many years have you been married? 1994. So what's that? 28 coming up, September the 3rd, the day World War II broke out. Yeah. And our eldest son, he was born two years to the day on our wedding anniversary,

our second wedding anniversary. Yeah. So how do you keep that fresh and healthy? I think going away helps. I think having your own interests, passions helps. I think just respect helps. I think holding hands, holding doors open. I think really supporting your partner's talents and challenges and ambitions, you know, and really being respectful, you know, and sometimes it's really challenging. And sometimes we've, you know, it's difficult, obviously. But I think it's just trying to communicate honestly, and with respect, and with affection. I think affection is really important. You know, I think it's, God, you're making me a bit emotional. i think it's god you're making me a bit emotional i think it's really important to to hold hands and to be grateful and to recognize because they go through changes as we go through changes we're not the kids we were when we're 20 in our 20s we're sort of you know we're

not and you know all sorts of things happen and um you've just got to be open and present and and be be kind you know and i i think i think you should ask allison this really i think i think i'm fortunate because i've got someone who's pretty steadfast in who she is and and doesn't question things that i questioned a lot more when I was younger than I do now. And it's just so consistent. And I think she's taught me, especially in the last few years, to really be open and honest about my own shit. You know, calling me on my own shit. about my own shit, you know, and calling me on my own shit.

And I think as I've wrestled with that, my egos wrestle with that, but really there's a part of me, my nature is harmony. My nature is wanting to not be in conflict. I'm sort of, I'm willing to, you know, be there and learn. And, you know, it's not a male and a female kind of traditional, you know, archetype. It's a real, we're a working team. And we are a working team.

And our kids see that. And, you know, they know what's come to me for, and they know what's come to their mom for. And she's an extraordinary mother. I mean, she's extraordinary. She's an extraordinary mother. She's an extraordinary human, but she's an extraordinary mother. And I kind of, I see that and I see how that's matured and developed over the years as we have.

And it really is. And it's just, you notice it. And I'm just in awe of that kind of natural, intuitive, instinctual, motherly bond that she has with our kids. And there's been times when I've been, you know, a little victim-y, what about me? I'm your dad, you know, and stuff like that. But she's sort of, without really going into the ethereal and the spiritual aspects of life she's she just kind of she's okay you know she's she's secure in that way she's so she's exceptional but she's so

regular and consistent solid yeah and it's just a really that's been a massive gift to me in my life. And I respect that and I honor that. And I think it's a case of keeping the affection alive, keeping the physical aspects of life is really important to me. That sort of intimacy is really important to me, physically and mentally. I think it's honor. I think it's i think it's honor i think it's just honoring somebody trying to do the best you can and sometimes i'm rubbish um but i hope most of

the time i'm i'm you know my my intention is good and honorable and and and i think you just have to even in the madness of what we do and our work and the world and everything else, I think you have to take time. And we, you know, tonight we're going to a movie. We're so excited to go to a movie. And, you know, and that's really good. We haven't been to a movie together for about six months, you know, because we've been too busy.

So it's fine in that time. And we go for a walk every day. But the kids come with us if they're there and the dog, you know. And I think that's a really nice thing to do. to, okay, let's get out of the house. Let's get away from this place and let's just together sort of just take the air and take in nature. Yeah. All really basic things. Real basic things. Yeah. Just, you know, and I think, and you do it over and over again. And also, you know, her parents, uh, you know, 18, eight and 89, her dad's 18, eight and 89,

her dad's 89. I mean, they've been in my life for a long time. And she grew up in a healthy environment. So that modeling made her a healthy person and schools into your kids. Yeah, it does. And they are very close to their grandparents, even though they live in Yorkshire

and our kids are over here in California and New York. They, and my mum as well, who's 88 and is great. But, you know, they really grew up with that. What we lived here, Alison and I, we moved, I was here for 12 years between here and New York and Ali lived with me in LA. And then when Cooper was born, at nine months we moved

back to England because we wanted them to be around their grandparents and I think their grandparents were really sort of involved with them and really made an effort you know and every kid every grandkid I think there's 11 of them all all together between Ali and her brothers always got a card and always got the same amount of money on that they're very consistent so she had that they're so fair and you know every day they do the telegraph crossword and they're very active in in sort of their respect for each other the way they move around and and delight in each other still which is because my papa no hair my father-in-law is just i mean he's like he's he's gone from being a lawyer all his life and

a golfer massive golfer and you know president of several clubs and etc etc very traditional english solid background who never they always say i taught him how to hug because because he's he in his retirement and as he's gotten older he's just literally become like a buddha and he's he's in his retirement and as he's gotten older, he's just literally become like a Buddha. And he's, I mean, a Buddha in a very nice suit kind of thing or a very nice shirt and tie, impeccable. But he's just got this joy about him and this freedom and this liberty and this warmth now, which is, it's just infectious and it's beautiful.

So I think having Alison had that and my kids had that as an influence in their life, really sort of influenced the way we go about it in some ways. It's beautiful and it's positive. And rare. Yeah, it's fantastic. One of the things,

this is kind of the last thing I wanna talk to you about. One of the things that I've been spending a lot of time thinking about and also trying to improve in my life is friendship, especially at our age. And for guys, like back to kind of mental health with men, I feel like women are naturally disposed to prioritize their friendships in a way that maybe guys aren't,

to like make a blanket stereoty you know, stereotypical statement, but I've just noticed that I've allowed busyness and also being a parent and other things that are important to me to supplant, you know, how I practice friendship in my life. And I think living in Los Angeles makes it difficult because everything's so spread out. If I was living in London or New York or a place like that,

where sort of moving around and being a social animal is a more kind of fluid and accessible experience than it is living here. So how have you thought about or maintained friendships in your life? Like, how do you think about that? I just, it's just really vital to me. I think it's so important.

I've got a friend, you know, I've got this friend who I've known since I was eight years old, came from the same place as me. His was the house that his parents allowed me to go on a Saturday and watch my first video. I'd see my first video machine, you know,

and feel really safe there. And he's an extraordinary guy, worked in factories, very working class. He and his wife adopted a little boy. They had a natural kid. They fostered kids. They adopted this little boy, Brett. And I think he was nine months old.

And Brett was then diagnosed with brain cancer. And for 11 years, they took him all over the world. And they looked, you know, and they, absolute contrasting life to my life. But he's one of the, they're the greatest parents I've ever known because of what they've put into him. To this day, his past four years now, I think Brett's gone. They're still fostering kids and their capacity for love and for openness and for care of other people just blows me away.

So he's a friend that I've remained in touch. I sent him a birthday card every year since we were 12. And I always remember and he didn't send me one until I hit 50. And now he gets me before I get him. I think with friends, I think if you've got a connection, I think you make an effort. You know, I really care about the men in my life. I really care about them.

And I want to sit them down and I want them to be able to hang out and not feel they have to talk. I want them just to feel that they're loved. I want them to feel they're respected. I want them to feel that they're inspiring because they all are. They've all got character, parts of their character that's really important. So I think you do make an effort and we get busy. We're so busy. And I'm already thinking about two of my friends that I want to

talk to, you know, and I need to, I haven't spoken to them for a few days, but I always make an effort. And I think, I think it's really important to do that i think it's it's vital to us you know i think it's you've got to have someone to go and talk to and it's funny the ones some of my friends i'm thinking of one in particular who has brought up a very english you know um just you know eton and oxford and that whole you know, sort of class, boarding school, the whole nine yards. And he's a kick-ass mover and a shaker who's responsible for some of the entertainment world's greatest, greatest, most successful movies. And when I sit with him, having known him 30 years,

and I really want to see him because he's part of the village that helps raise my kids as I hope I do with his. It's extraordinary how open he is, how vulnerable, how honest, how candid he is when we're together. And I think I provide that avenue for him. And it's not a conscious thing.

It's just something that's developed naturally. There's a trust. There's a trust. Of safety. There's a trust, you know, and I mean, and he's, you know, I know he values that and I value that and that's our time. So if it's a coffee or breakfast together, you know, or it's a text, you know, I tell him I love him all the time. I tell all my friends I love them because I do. And I think that's really important to, you know, there's nothing sissy about that. There's nothing effeminate or too sensitive about that. I mean, and if people think there is, I don't care.

No, I mean, I can just share from my own personal experience with you. You're so generous with your time and your words. Like when I was in London and I was staying at our mutual friend's flat and I would take a picture of, I would see like a Hockney and I know you love David Hockney and I'm like, I'm here in London.

And then you would send me five paragraphs on like all the places I should go and what's magnificent about London and make sure you go here. And with such a, like a generosity of spirit, you know, that I think is rare and beautiful. Oh man, bless you. I just, I hope it's not rare.

No, it is rare. Well, if it is rare, then we've got to, then it's about us just pushing it a bit and making sure our friends are okay. And I do that because I'm so grateful to you for what you do. And it just, you're in my town. And I just want you to see the best. You know, I'm a brilliant tourist guide

in New York, LA and London. And I love it. I thrive on being able to show people a different side of things. And so those things I sent you is just knowing who you were, who you are, having read your book and having gotten to know you over the last couple of years, it was just natural for me to want to share that because whether you do it or not, you've got it now. And next time you're there, I want you to take your bike.

I think I only did like maybe one of the 10 things you told me. Two things you've got to do is one, you've got to take a bike ride around Richmond Park. You've got to sneak through the gate under a full moon. You've got to do that. That'll just be so good for you, I think. And the other thing is you've got to swim in the sort of the baths in Hampstead. Yeah, that was the one thing

I thought I was going to make time for. Well, you will do. I couldn't make it happen. You will do. All right, next time. I think in a way, when you go to all the support you've had through your life with your challenges,

don't you feel a connection and a friendship and a transaction in the most positive way with the people that you stand with in meetings? Oh, for sure. You do? Yeah, of course. But do you just, of course. But do you just sort of leave that and that's,

you know, you compartmentalize that or do you, I'm presuming you work with, as a mentor for people? Not in any kind of formal way. Right. I mean, there's people in recovery and that's a separate thing, but just in terms of like, I wouldn't say I'm formally anybody's mentor, but I try to be generous with my time,

my maybe not advice, but you know, experience based whatever I can share that can be helpful to other people. So I do put, I put time and energy into that. And those are like daily text messages lots of different people for the most part, occasional phone calls yeah but for instance when you when i reached out to you and said should we have a chat

should we have a catch-up you come back from england i'd been in europe as well it was just you know i didn't know if you had time because i presume like me you know you're very busy um and i also respect that you need your time out and you want to go cycling, I presume, and that you want to have that time to just sort of, you've got a lot going on. So I respect the fact that you're a very busy man, but we met, right? And I had no idea that this would be the fruit

of what we sat down. I just wanted to see you because I really wanted to see you, you know? And to me, it was those sort of things, whether they're spontaneous and usually when it's spontaneous, I find it's even better and it's more inspiring um just uh that's the magic of friendship you know sitting down and having a conversation like we're doing now and just being able to learn something be challenged you know um feel warm feel safe you know, and know that the person's opposite you and you do this so well.

It really has your best intentions at heart, you know, and that's a beautiful thing, man. That's got such power to support and inspire and as an example as well to my kids. You know, when I go and see my friends and I come back with an idea or some kindness in an interchange or something that I hadn't recognized, whether good or bad, I talk very frankly with my family and my kids, my boys, especially my daughters in LA,

sorry, in New York. And that just cements my reason and my desire to actually keep doing this because it feels good. I'm sorry, I'm really not, it's not a commercial, but it really does feel, that's coming out a lot more actually, which is really funny just in my day-to-day and it's not conscious. But it's interesting how this thing that was there and now I'm 100% in it

and it's literally manifesting from me and and that's a that's in a way is uh it's it's a lovely way of sustaining oneself even though i don't consciously choose to do that but it is it is a case of i think you know it's if if you feel good if you vibrate at a certain level if you can push yourself when you don't i mean i thought about it coming here and i actually mentioned it to my boys you know said, don't say this, don't say that. And I'm like, I don't want to say anything. I just want to be free and I want to be open to you because you deserve that because of the work you do. And I said, I kind of feel like rich because I was never a long distance runner. I was a sprinter. I was a very good sprinter and um and and when i've

tried i think i've done once i did a 5k and that was it and it took me you know three and a half hours and uh whatever and i think that it was an interesting idea i thought okay i'm feeling a bit nervous because i want to give you everything and i want to all the different things you you know doubts or whatever you have when you're coming into a situation. And, but I wanted to be mostly, I wanted to be honest and I want to be present for you. And I thought, I wonder this feeling, I'm not going to, I'm going to go with it. I'm going to go with it because I trust that it's going to be beautiful. And I trust that there's going to be some, some, something real and, uh, come out of it. But I did think about you when you're running and when you're on the 22nd mile or whatever it is and it's really fucking hard work to push yourself

or from my perspective, even at 5k, to push that foot in front of the other. And this is what I got from your book as well and just to keep going, keep going, get to the other side. And I thought, well, it's almost the same mentally if you can, you know, utilize that skill and that mindset to just push you a little bit further mentally or in public speaking or whatever it is,

then that's what you got to do. You got to chip away at that mountain, get a bit higher and get a bit higher. And just, it really is a case of will and a case of applying yourself and, you know, not giving into those little, you know, our doubts or traitors that make us lose what we oft might win

by failing to attempt. I think Shakespeare said something like that. You know, you've just got to keep cracking on. So I think I just took us on a whole tangent, didn't I? Yeah, I know, but I love it. Sorry. No, it is true. And, you know, the magic is in the chipping, right?

Yeah. You want to think about the grand gestures and the sort of sweeping successes, et cetera, The magic is in the chipping, right? You wanna think about the grand gestures and the sort of sweeping successes, et cetera, but it's really the unromantic and unglorious little chipping away every single day when no one's looking. Yeah, it is.

And like anything worthwhile demands that and you're in it right now. Yeah, man, I mean, what did you call it, I think a couple of years ago, you're in the fire. Yeah. I think you're in it right now. Yeah, man. I mean, what did you call it? I think a couple of years ago, you're in the fire. Yeah. I think you're in the fire. I think you said Julian said something like that. And I was like, oh, please let me be on the fire.

And I knew it was just the beginning then when I interviewed you. So I thought, oh my goodness. So I really relate to your story. I really relate. It's different colors and paints, but it's the same sort of basic thing. You know, we're grafting and it's,

and, you know, we've got to get through. We've got to keep going. And there's some days where I'm overwhelmed and I feel like I just want to, you know, hide away or get on a motorbike and just get out into the desert and sort of lose myself or drink. And I think, no, you've just got to,

you've got to let it go you gotta keep going and and and then it sort of takes on its own momentum and you and you think actually i actually made it i made deadline last night okay i managed to put all these things together and look how good it looks and look how well it's written not me i'm not saying just me but it's there's an honesty and an integrity there. And so that gives me a little more confidence. And then I'll, but I keep at it. I keep at everything.

I'm definitely, apart from long distance running, maybe one day you'll take me. I'm terrified, but maybe until my lungs are like, you know, bursting. I know, are you okay? Yeah. lungs are like you know i get my back bursting i know are you okay yeah yeah um but also you know obviously cut this out if you want but you are a friend and and you are some and you're gonna have to take this for a second you're someone i admire tremendously and inspired by you tremendously

and the fact that you give me time as well like like we did when we met for a cuppa or juice, you know, that's just brilliant. That means so much to me and it inspires me. And then I, you know, it's a ripple effect. And that's, I just think if we brought more kindness and presence and sustained support into the circle of people that we interact with, whether it's your audience or whether it's your family and friends. I think that's a really positive move forward. Well, I appreciate that. And I'm certainly all about that.

And to the extent that I can be available to you to help you in that regard. And I love that idea that you mentioned earlier about the round table. I think there's something really special about that. There really is and I've already got a, there's a list in my head. It was interesting.

I was shooting and writing about Niccolai, Niccolo, sorry, Niccolo Beeney. The architect. The architect. And he's an extraordinary man and he's full of passion and life and affection. He's Italian, but he grew up in Australia and then came to California. And, you know, he's got the best of all those cultures and really warm human being. And we went to shoot him, take photographs of him at his house.

And I'd interviewed him in January, but, you know, we had to hold off for one reason or another and uh at the end of it there was just myself and the photographer in his home and he'd done this lovely plate of Italian foods you know cheeses and hams etc etc and we sat down and the conversation we had afterwards was just so incredible and so beautiful and Alex photographer, who's probably 30 or 32, who really wanted to shoot Nick, because he'd met him once before and loved him and his energy. We sat down and we had this conversation.

The next day I said, I said, wasn't that wonderful? Didn't it feel good? And he was like, oh, absolutely. I said, and the pictures are amazing. You know, we did it like in an hour. And really good pictures. You know, really great.

We really captured his soul. And he said, yeah, it like in an hour. And really good pictures. You know, really great. We really captured his soul. And he said, yeah, it really was amazing. He said, but what was most amazing was the conversation we had afterwards. And that was a kid who's 30. And it just made me think that I know like 10 men that I know that I have such, you know, respect for. And I just thought we should sit down and we should all talk about this. We should film it we should we should make it natural and real but useful to other kids and to other people as an example of what can be done in a in a masculine way you know and you know we're not you know in a really elegant true real way

have a conversation we all need to you know listen and talk more. Of course. Right? That's why we're both doing what we're doing. Yeah, we are. And I bless you. Well, bless you to be continued. To be continued. The conversation is just one conversation. Yeah, right on. You're more beautiful on the inside than the outside.

I do consider you a friend. Good. And I appreciate the energy that you brought to this today and please consider me you know at your service for anything that you need in in service to what you're trying to express and manifest because i think it's really cool and special so thanks john bless you man bless you i really appreciate you thank you all right cool All right, cool. That's it for today. Thank you for listening.

I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com, where you can find the entire podcast archive, as well as podcast merch, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change in the Plant Power Way, as well as the Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify,

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Namaste. Thank you.