The Rich Roll Podcast - Justin Williams Is Reinventing Cycling

Episode Date: November 30, 2020

Out of 743 riders on the World Tour, the highest tier of professional road cycling, only 5 are black. Today’s guest is devoted to changing that. I wouldn’t bet against him. Dubbed ‘the most important bike racer you don’t know’, Justin Williams is an 11-time U.S. National Champion and 14-time California State Road and Track Champion. A rare sprinting talent from the get go, Justin was already crushing criteriums across the state as a teen en route to becoming the Jr. Track National Champ and a member of the U.S. National Team. In 2009 he joined the coveted Trek Livestrong U23 Dev Team. A launchpad to the majors, Justin’s dream of competing on the World Tour was becoming real. However, despite Justin’s skyward trajectory and unbound potential, he quickly became disillusioned with the elitist aspect of the sport. Then he did the unthinkable: he quit.Departing Europe for home, he enrolled in college. Lived a civilian life. And let his bike collect cobwebs. For Justin, it seemed, cycling was over. However, Justin’s younger brother Cory — then making his own cycling waves — had other plans, enticing Justin’s return to the sport through fixie racing culture. Revitalized by this dynamic community, Justin would soon discover renewed purpose on the bike. As an athlete who still had races to win. And ultimately as an advocate on a mission to redefine the sport he loves. Thus was born Legion of Los Angeles: an independent elite cycling team dedicated to increasing diversity & encouraging inclusion in the industry. Translation: a launchpad for badass racers of varying ethnicities and backgrounds who don’t necessarily fit the status quo of the current whitewashed cycling program. Today we explore Justin’s extraordinary story — from his experience growing up in Los Angeles to immigrant parents through his blossoming love affair with the bike. We dissect the sport of cycling and the industry that supports it. What’s great about it. What must change. And how Legion is leading the way by smashing paradigms and setting a new standard when it comes to supporting athletes and promoting inclusivity. Wise beyond his years, Justin is passion in motion. A cycling hero. The embodiment of persistence. And a powerful reminder that what is most important about sport has nothing to do with podiums. Instead, it’s about the journey towards self-actualization. It’s about sharing experience. And above all, the impact you leave on others. The visually inclined can watch our exchange on YouTube. And as always, the podcast streams wild and free on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Equal parts important and entertaining, it was an honor to host this enlightening exchange with an athlete so devoted to positive change. Mad respect. P.S. Thanks Alonso Tal for permission to use your epic action images of Justin. Also, Knox Robinson may or may not have dropped by. Just sayin’. Peace + Plants, Rich

For me, coming from South Central, getting into cycling and being introduced to like all of these people from different backgrounds and professional industries, it opened my mind up to what was possible. For me, getting more kids of color into the sport where they can just have that understanding and opening of perspective and like having their minds kind of like, you know, you are more than what the statistics say you are. You know, I grew up in a place where we didn't have the best education system. We didn't have a, like a lot of inspiration to be more than what you saw people being successful in the hood doing, which was like drug dealing or whatever, or hustling or whatever. So to get into this sport where there's doctors, there's lawyers, there's people that do things like that you never even thought were jobs, like filmmaking or set design and all this other stuff.

And to be able to have access to just those conversations is incredible. It like completely changed like what I wanted out of life. Even just that, putting that in front of some kids, man, that could like be the difference between, you know, them ending up in jail or them ending up with a marketing career and working at a brand like Specialized. And like, I think that's extremely important. Everybody's not going to be a bike racer. Everyone's not going to get it. But that doesn't mean that the industry of cycling isn't rich in opportunity. That's Justin Williams, and this is episode 563 of the Rich Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast.

Greetings, bipedal, bicycle-pedaling humanoids. It is I, Rich Roll. Welcome to the podcast. Before we get into it, a little housekeeping. First off, I wanted to announce that we recently created a brand new YouTube channel that's dedicated solely to short clips from the podcast. channel that's dedicated solely to short clips from the podcast. So every single day, we are now posting brief four to 10 minute excerpts from both current and past guests. So if you're into that kind of thing, it's a pretty great way to get a visual taste for each guest and check it out. I'll put a link in the show notes, or you can simply search Rich Roll Podcast Clips on YouTube.

I'll put a link in the show notes, or you can simply search Rich Roll Podcast Clips on YouTube. Second, the holiday season is now officially upon us. And along with that comes this search that we all go on for unique and awesome gifts. So in addition to suggesting my new book, Voicing Change, might I also suggest, because it's so important now more than ever that we all keep our nutrition in check, including our loved ones, our Plant Power Meal Planner. Here's the thing. You're stuck at home. They're stuck at home.

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as it's instantly available. No promo code necessary. So to learn more and grab your gift card today, click Meal Planner on the homepage menu at richroll.com or go directly to meals.richroll.com. Okay. Today's guest has been called the most important bike racer you don't know. Dubbed the eighth most influential person in the sport, he's a guy who walked away from the world tour early in his career to carve his own path and has matured into not only an 11-time national champion, but more importantly, the founder and manager of Legion of Los Angeles, which is this very cool cycling team here in LA that serves as a critical voice for inclusion and representation in a sport

that I think is fair to say is in dire need of reinvention and reimagination. His name is Justin Williams. He's super cool. His story is incredibly powerful. It's instructive. And it's all coming up in a couple secs. But first. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe

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go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. Okay, for a little context to today's episode, let's have a little dose of reality. Out of 743 riders on the world tour, which is the highest tier of professional road cycling, only five riders are black. And out of the 176 cyclists in the recent tour to France, only one was black, one guy, Kevin Reza. That, to be frank, is bullshit.

And it's an institutional paradigm in the cycling industry that Justin Williams is hell-bent on breaking. With 11 U.S. National Championships and 14 California State Road and Track Championships to his name, cycling is truly in Justin's blood. At a young age, he showed a rare aptitude as a sprinter, crushing crits throughout the state as a teenager, and eventually becoming the junior track national champion and a member of the national team. In 2009, he joined Trek Livestrong U23, their dev team, racing with world-famous pros like Ben King and Alex Dowsett. But despite his success and his unbound potential, the obvious next stop was the world tour. But instead, Justin became disillusioned with the elitist aspect of the sport. He quit the team.

He went home. He enrolled in college. For Justin, cycling, it seemed, was over. But it was his younger brother, Corey, also making cycling waves in local races at the time, who ultimately lured Justin back into the sport through fixie racing culture. Justin found himself newly energized and also discovering this renewed meaning and purpose on the bike

as an athlete who still had races to win, of course, but also as an advocate on a mission to redefine the sport. Thus was born Legion of Los Angeles, an independent elite cycling team that Justin founded dedicated to increasing diversity and encouraging inclusion in the industry. It's a badass team of super talented racers of varying ethnicities and backgrounds who don't necessarily fit the status quo of the current whitewashed cycling program. So this is Justin's story from his experience growing up in Los Angeles to immigrant parents through his blossoming love affair with the bike. It's also a dissection of the cycling industry as a whole and a dialogue about the ways Legion is breaking barriers and setting a new standard when it comes to supporting athletes and promoting inclusivity.

Justin is a guy who is wise beyond his years. He is passion in motion and one of my cycling heroes. Also, really the embodiment of persistence. embodiment of persistence. And this, I think, powerful reminder that what is most important about sport isn't wins. It's not podiums or medals. Instead, it's really about this journey towards self-actualization and the impact that you leave on others. And it's also about enjoying the shared experience. It was an honor to sit down with this accomplished athlete and inspiring activist.

Oh, and not to bury the lead, but Knox Robinson also popped in to quietly hang in the wings. So that was very cool. Anyway, enough said. This is an important and enlightening exchange, and I hope you dig it as much as I did. And it is with that that I give you Justin Williams.

All right, man. Justin, thank you for doing this. I appreciate it. Yeah, no problem, man. We had a little bit of a false start the other day. Yeah, I know. Everything's on Zoom right now. I know.

So I just assumed, man. I was like, oh, yeah, Zoom. My bad. My bad. But I appreciate you making time over the weekend, man. I've been looking forward to this for a while. Yeah, no worries. I love coming to Thousand Oaks.

So this was like, I used to live out here. So it was like a nice little blast from the past kind of driving through and like, being like, yeah, Chipotle's right there. You do a fair amount of riding out this way. I love it as much as I can. Usually there's Nosco and Phil's, which is like kind of this really cool build

into the off season. I usually suffer through both of those because they're pretty close together and I usually have no training. Philz like cookie Fondo thing? Yeah, it's cookie Fondo. So I usually suffer through those and those kind of are the wake up call to being like, yo, you should probably start training. Right. How's training been lately? Like what's it like doing what you do in this COVID era?

Yeah, it's been odd with the fires and everything. Like, we, you know, it was this kind of stay ready so you don't have to get ready situation in the beginning of the year to the middle of the year. And then summer started and we're like, it doesn't look like anything's going to happen. So we took a little bit of a break being my younger brother. to happen so we took a little bit of a break me and my younger brother um and then it just feels like it's things upon things happening where it's just you don't know what kind of training you should be doing right um and then when the fire started off we had just like actually started getting into like those slow base miles and then yeah and then that kind of kicked us out we're gonna go to like utah it didn't didn't happen. And then the fire was kind of simmered down.

So now I'm just like suffering through these days of training that's like should have started maybe a month ago, two weeks ago. There's no races though. I mean, Tour de France has happened, the Giro is going on right now, but are there local like crits and things like that

going on right now or no? No, man, I feel like the organizers or the scnca kind of dropped the ball as far as putting something together like to kind of there's been this hunger for wanting to do something and we have a lot of group rides where people were starting to to kind of collect uh at but there's been no there's been no racing no plan of racing no discussion about racing, like nothing. Yeah.

At least in California. Makes it hard to stay. Yeah, exactly. Motivated for what? Right. And what about the rest of the Legion crew? Like, are you able to keep that together and keep them engaged with everything? Yeah, no, we have a lot of fun. We have like a group chat and kind of these little small things that we have where we just try to keep the guys engaged or at least communicating with each other.

We built the team with the idea of having this family and guys that we really believed in from our past. And the team was small. It started from nothing. So a lot of people had to buy into the idea because we didn't really have a ton of support. And that's the vibe that we have as a team. So it's pretty easy to, like, just have conversations about stuff that's happening in cycling, ideas that people have. We are able to kind of grant them a voice, right? And usually when you're on a team, you do your job and you ride your bike

and that's kind of the gist of it. But because we have this kind of open platform where the guys are more than welcome to give suggestions and voice their opinions and everything, like there's always something happening where guys are like, oh, we should do this

or we should think about this and that's made it, that and Zwift have made it bearable, right? Yeah, yeah. We're always getting into something. Yeah. Well, Legion of Los Angeles is super cool. Like it's very inspirational what you've created,

what you've built and kind of what you're lording over right now. And the idea, at least it seems to me, is kind of twofold. Like one is taking a stand for athlete representation in a broken system. We were talking a little bit about that before the podcast. And the second is, you know,

being a voice for inclusion and diversity in a sport that is in desperate need of, you know, a pretty strong injection of that right now. So, I mean, are those the kind of two, you know, primary things that you think about yeah i mean there i think those are two the most important things are my driving forces right like being an athlete being in that system of kind of how teams are set up and structured uh that are obviously weren't working um and having friends that have quit the sport because of that,

understanding the culture that I come from and how people view that, and then trying to put it in front of people that come from where I come from in a way that they can digest it and kind of pull inspiration from it and be actually interested in it. You know, what the old version was and what we're trying to do with the team now, it just really clashed, right? There just wasn't, I knew that we had to do things in our own way, in our own voice, in our kind of our, from our own perspective to really help diversify it, right? Like representation is important in us standing on top of the podium and being in these races and showing is one thing, but also bringing that culture and showing that culture and showing people that it's not like this thing that you have to conform to be a part of.

Right. That's also really important, right? Right. When people come into something that they don't see themselves into and they feel like they have to be something else to be a part of it. A lot of the time, no one wants to stick around. And that's a lot of what we've seen. Yeah, there's, I mean, when you talk about culture, there's like traditional cycling culture, and then there's like culture culture, right? And I feel like you're like reimagining where those two worlds meet.

you're like re-imagining where those two worlds meet. And part of like Legion extends beyond just being this cycling team and this kind of, you know, way of mentoring young riders from diverse backgrounds to get into the sport, but really kind of like this aspirational brand. Like I think I read somewhere, you were like, I wanna be like, you know, what Supreme is to skateboard to skateboarding. Yeah. You know, I want to be that for cycling, like, like, like having a really strong sensibility, like fashion sensibility,

culture sensibility. And when you see like, you know, the kit, it's just fucking dope. I mean, it's like, it's the best kit, you know, it definitely, and I know you're into like everything from the typeface and the color schemes and all of that. And what you've done is like really cool. Like when you see it, it stands out and it means something. And I think that makes people excited about cycling in a new and different way. But it also has a life kind of almost outside of cycling, just in culture at large. It also has a life kind of almost outside of cycling, just in culture at large.

And that was the whole kind of idea behind it being Legion of Los Angeles and not like some racing team that goes fast, you know what I mean? Some title like that. It was super important for me. I grew up in South Central LA where there's like, and I loved graffiti growing up. I used to, you know, draw graffiti. And I've always been into typography, always been into fashion. So, again, it's just being true to kind of my vision and understanding of, you know, what I thought could bring more people in. And I think the first step in making someone feel invited to something is, like, making it aesthetically pleasing to them. making it aesthetically pleasing to them. So that's really like where I stood when we were coming up with the name,

the title and everything, and kind of just the persona and look of the team. I think it's gone pretty well. We've been able to, I don't know how, but we've been able to definitely kind of maneuver ourself where sponsors kind of trust us. I mean, I could see like a whole lot, like hoodies and like all the whole thing, man.

You know, not just cycling kit. Can you even buy the red, white, and blue kit that you wear? You can't, right? You got to earn that. Exactly. You can't even get a kit that looks like the team kit. It's one of those things where I wanted to keep that special. So you can't get a Legion kit or bibs right now.

You can only get the supporter kit is what we call it because like there needs to be like to buy an nba jersey you can't buy an nba jersey that the players step out on the floor with right and cycling to me my personal opinion is that like every person has access to everything and it creates this mentality where like people think that because they're riding the same bike as you they deserve the same respect as you but you're putting in you know 30 hours a week on the bike and another like 10 hours a week in the gym and then you're like eating oatmeal for breakfast you know doing all these things to be this professional athlete and then you have there's

this attitude this elitist attitude within the sport where everyone kind of feels like, well, I have the same bike as you. I have the same, I can buy the same stuff that you worked your whole life for. You're like, no, no, no. And then it's, yeah, it just creates, to me, I feel like it just creates this kind of understanding that like you're, the work that you put in your whole life. I've been riding since I was 13, right? The work that you put in your whole life, I could just pay for. And like, there needs to be some kind of a separation from what the pros can get versus like what your everyday consumer can get. I think that's a lazy old marketing tactic

that a lot of brands use where they're like, oh, the pros ride it. You can also ride it. But I think that's in cycling that's created this world where people kind of just walk around with like a kind of a big head because they can do that. Yeah. I mean, you see people out riding or in the kits of all the teams, you know, I think you can spot from 200 yards away, whether somebody's legit. And that's crazy because I think it's great that you want to represent a team. Like the same way I represent the Lakers.

I was, you know, we lost last night. I was in my jersey super mad. I think that's great. But I have a swingman jersey, right? I can't step onto the Staples Stadium and go shoot a basket. So it's just like there needs to be some kind of, it's really good that people want to wear team jerseys and stuff and represent their team that they believe in because that's what Legion is to us, right? It's this opportunity to create a platform that is similar to a franchise that we've seen in professional sports, right? The Lakers, the Cowboys, et cetera.

This is my town. this is my city, this is my team kind of thing. But at the same time, we have to make sure that there's that separation that these guys that are spending their whole lives trying to get to this level feel special doing that. We got Knox Robinson over here who, he's got a similar thing with Black Roses, right?

Like we joked earlier, like I was gonna ask him for a Black Roses singlet and he's like, no, man, you're on the crew. You know, you can't just get it, right? Yeah, yeah, I know. Dude, you're like, ugh. Total tangent, but like, can we talk about the EF like palace duck kit?

Oh man. What is going on? It's so important, man. What is up with that? You know, it's one of those things where people love or hate it, which I think is perfect. When you make something that is that kind of left field, people should love or hate it. It should be very powerful emotionally on one side or the other. I don't care

what people think about the kit. I like the kit, but I don't care what people think about the kit. It's about what it means for professional cycling to kind of have that collaboration with a brand that's so mainstream and has like such a powerful kind of vibe to it. And for them to interject that on the top level, I think that's like extremely important for the sport moving forward. I mean, I'm an old man. So when I see it, like my eyes hurt, but I respect like it's a British skateboard streetwear brand, right? And the idea that like a cycling team would collaborate with that kind of company, I think is cool. And it's Rafa, right?

Yeah, it's Rafa. Yeah, same company that you guys work with. Yeah. Like I said, it's super important to like these next steps of kind of like creating change in cycling, breaking tradition in cycling. It's, it is a very important move. It's a power move from Rafa and Education First because they did it on at the Giro. I think they should have did it at the Tour, but you know, whatever. But it's, it's crazy to see that happen because I can't recall anything.

And I think that it's, it's not being held being held as big of a deal as it actually is, because we've never seen anything like that happen in cycling. Right. I mean, for better or worse, cycling is so much, it's so rooted in tradition, some of which is super archaic. And there's something to be said for some of those traditions, but upending those to modernize it. Right. And like broaden the aperture of the sport to make it appealing for another, you know, younger generation. Yeah, I think at some point, cycling is running into a ton of issues as far as like the age group that is consuming it now.

Yeah. Right. Like at some point you have to move, you have to be willing to change and evolve to continue the growth of something. And it just feels like sometimes they aren't paying attention at all to growth and getting a new demographic into it. Is there any sport more fucked up than cycling? Not that I personally know of. It just seems like they cannot get out of their own way.

I don't think they want to. Cycling is very much a sport where the people at the top are fine with making what they're making and they have all the control. So it's like, well, we're going to do it our way because we can.

We talked about this earlier. It's not about everyone winning. It's about us getting what we want and then keeping it that way so that we have full control over it. I think in cycling, there's this massive fear of losing control. But at some point, you have to let things go. With me and with Legion, I understand Legion is like a small brand right now. It's going to get to a point where I want it to outgrow me. I want it to be like this thing that's so big that I have to like reach out for help or I have to like distribute parts of it.

We have to break it into different things. Like that's really a cool thing, right? Because then that means the reach of it is going to get bigger and bigger and bigger. I think that's super important. I think that's lacking in cycling right now. Well, I want to get into the disruption of the sport, but I think, you know, for people that are watching or listening who aren't like super rooted in, you know, in what cycling is and isn't, it would be helpful to kind of paint the picture of what professional cycling is all about. Like from the insider's perspective, like what is it like when you're on one of these teams, like financially, professionally,

when you talk about like the control mechanism, like the day in the life and, you know, there's a romance around it, but the reality is, you know, very different. I think that most people realize. A lot of shady things happening. A lot of shady things domestically on the u.s scene um the guys just aren't getting paid you know what i mean like you do to again it takes an immense amount of effort to become a professional cyclist um and these there's a lot

of team managers that are taking their cut of whatever that partnership money is and, you know, building these programs and teams where the guys ride, they keep their mouth shut, they don't ask for anything. They're lucky to be there. And there's still this mentality, even though it's, our team runs, operates as a marketing firm that uses cycling as a platform to market the partners that we are sponsored by or that we work with. That's really the gist of like every cycling team, right? But managers keep control over their athletes by just suppressing them, making sure that they feel lucky to be there,

even though like when you're getting paid like 12 grand a year as an independent contractor, which is how the contracts are set up. You're an independent contractor. You work for yourself. You're agreeing to do this job for us for 12 grand. Man, who can live off of 12 grand? Well, Phil wrote that book like pro cycling on $10 a day, which is like the reality of it for most people unless you're a superstar. Yeah.

Even the superstars, like there's a few guys that get paid like real money. But yeah, again, domestically, like that's what you're dealing with. If you're even getting paid. And the sad part about that whole thing is that it doesn't have to be like that. Like, especially right now, cycling is a massive industry. It makes money. But these directors are so used to just asking companies for just enough so that they can pay themselves and run the program so that they can secure that sponsorship. Right. So it's like if people are asking for less and less and less and less to run their program and only people that are suffering from that is the athletes.

Right. At what point are they going to be either the level is going to come down, the sport is not going to grow, or it's just going to deteriorate to the point where, like, what is it going to look like to be a pro cyclist or to be a professional at bike riding? It's going to be guys that can afford to do it. We continuously talk about this, how elitist cycling is or how hard it is to get into it because, you know, bikes cost X amount of dollars. These teams are continuously just asking for enough so they can get by and they can run the program on a nickel and dime budget. When they could actually go, which we've proven, you can actually go to these sponsors and say, this is what we're doing.

This is why we're valuable. Here are the numbers and analytics to back it up. Here are the people that we highlight, our superstars, our Corey's, our Justin's. This is how we work, how we make everything work. You know, this is what we're asking for. And they go, okay, cool. But that's worth it. We can justify spending that.

Instead, these managers are going, this is how much we need. We need some product. And that'll be fine. And then once they take their cut out, what's left is like what they try to- The product swap. Yeah. What's left is what they- And you should be grateful. Right.

You get to live the dream. It's amazing that there's never been like cycling has never been able to get it together to create like an athlete's union, essentially, to collectively lobby for. Everyone's terrified. People don't talk about, no one talks about anything. No one talks about, you know, if you look at most other sports, you can see what everyone's making. You know what LeBron's net worth is. You know, you can see what his salary is from the Lakers. Cycling, dudes don't even want to talk about it, right?

And it's such a mental kind of fuck where, you know, guys that aren't getting paid anything aren't even expecting it. And they think now that other guys that are asking to get paid are wrong for asking to get paid because now they're comparing each other. You know, they're comparing themselves to that person and going, well, I'm better than you and I don't get paid are wrong for asking to get paid because now they're comparing each other you know they're comparing themselves to that person and going well i'm better than you and i don't i don't get paid so why should you get paid and it's like bro like it's we're all in a bad situation we should talk uh we should stick together and start to like demand, you know, that we do because teams actively suppress riders becoming valuable to sponsors. Well, there's a dysfunction, I think, that's sort of informed by that like umbrella of omerta that defines cycling. Like we don't talk about these things and we're all in this together. And there's this kind of collective silence around these important issues that keeps the sport from moving forward.

I think that stems from a lot of like the European culture and like, you know, great kudos to European cycling. Like I think what they have is what they have, they grow up in and it's great, but I think it just doesn't work for American. And the more that we continue to kind of try to emulate that model, the more we're doing a disservice to kids that are trying to get into the sport and make a living out of doing it. That does not work here. It's not going to work here. Call it entitlement or whatever you want to call it. And, you know, again, I have tens of 20, 10, 20, 30 friends that have quit the sport because there is no, there is nothing there for them. At some point you grow up to an age where you have to take care of your family.

You have to pay your bills. And we just don't have the structures that they have in Europe. In Europe, they have so many teams. Man, there's, I remember one year I sent 150 resumes out. And most of those teams were in Europe. Europe, Asia, and naturally 150 teams. Right here, I think there's maybe 10 continental teams. Maybe. So it's like we just don't have the structure that they have in Europe. So if we continue to try to like emulate that model in a way that we are, it's just, there is no future.

Yeah. Well, we're in a whole new world now. This is the age of the influencer marketing kind of thing that, you know, these technological tools have allowed people like yourself to, you know, basically rewrite some of the rule books here. Cycling is tricky because fundamentally it's a team sport. Like it's not, you know, cross country running or marathon running where it's really an individual thing. So it makes it a lot of it a little bit harder, I would imagine. But the fact that you were able to kind of create this out of whole cloth and change, you know, the rule book is amazing. And I would suspect that people are paying attention and you're gonna see people doing something,

they're gonna be copying that model more and more. Yeah, it's something that I've definitely thought about, like how are we setting the standard for like what's next in the sport and how sponsors and brands kind of interact with individuals and teams. Cycling is definitely a team sport. I think that there's, if you give people the proper tools and knowledge to do what we've done. Hey, everyone in our team, we go over social media.

We go over social media tactics with them. We show them exactly how we've gotten a following and what it does. It's actually pretty simple. It's just mostly about consistency and kind of understanding the algorithms and how they change on like social media platforms. But we teach our guys that because if we have 10 guys on a team and six of them have influence in different spaces, that makes the team more valuable. Now, getting people to understand what their role is on the team, that's just a conversation that you have to have. If you think you have, cycling is infamous for not wanting to build superstars, but then that puts the team in a space where no one knows who's who. No one knows what's happening.

Right. And then that creates this jealous space where guys can't do their goddamn job because they're so busy looking at like, well, why does this guy get that? Or why does this guy? No one asks why LeBron is LeBron. Like he's proven why he's LeBron over and over and over again. And that doesn't mean the rest of the team is invaluable. That means just know your role and play your role so that we can all be successful. And so like, we really tried to create this structure where like, I raced 2018 on my own. I won, I think 17 or 18 races. I mean, had anybody ever done, you were winning

national championships without a team. It's like unprecedented. It was like insane. So in taking that and kind of like using that as understanding for a lot of guys that came to the team, I'm like, hey guys, I'm doing this because I care about you and I want to build the sport, not because I need a team. And that's not to say that in a way that's like, you guys are lucky to be here. That's saying like, hey man, like I've done this on my own. I'm here trying to help you guys do the same and for us to do it as a family together. Like, let's make sure we keep that in mind as we're growing and as we're moving. And, you know, the team that we put together, we really structured it in a way where, like, we have guys that can do everything. We have guys that understand their role within the team.

And that's why we won so much without—we don't have the best guys in the country. We have solid guys. Most of our guys are local. Most of our guys are from L.A. country. We have solid guys. Most of our guys are local. Most of our guys are from LA. So putting together a local team that's able to win on a national level, it's something that comes from creating this structure where everyone knows their role and everyone is understanding of the team's goal. And within that, what's the difference in, like, financial incentivization structure for the athlete? Like, I assume it's different than it would be, like, on a world, you know, world tour team.

Yeah, I mean, and we're figuring that out. Everything is very new to, like, we're creating this new structure, but we have no idea. I mean, the team's two years, like, two years old, right? A year and a half. It's not even, you know what I mean? So, we're, everyone keeps asking us, like, oh,, yeah, like how do we do this and what's next? And I'm like, bro, I'm figuring it out as I go. But yeah, it's different.

On the world tour, there's a minimum. And the way that minimum or, or pro Conti or whatever, that some of the riders are hired as staff. So they don't make as much, or they have like these double contracts where, um, the UCI minimum will be like 60,000 or whatever the number is. And then they'll basically say, oh yeah, here's your UCI contract, but then you got to pay for your bikes. You're paying for your own travel. You're basically doing all of this stuff that's taking away from that, what that minimum is. Right. So for what we're doing now, we're obviously like, it's, we, we talk to all our guys and we're like, yo, it's an investment. We'll pay you X amount of dollars. But as we grow and as you help us grow, you will, you will also grow. Right. And that's, that's the buy-in because we don't have like, again, we barely had support in our first year.

I literally had to go to my sponsors and they were like, what you did last year by yourself, just do that again. And I was like, no, no, no. Like, I want to start a team and I really want to, like, spread this wealth and kind of show everyone that you can do cycling in a way that's really cool, really fun and really fulfilling. Give me the support to do that and then I'll show you what it's worth. And like, that's why going into this year or going into this year and going into next year, you know, we've done really well during COVID. I know there are a lot of teams that are like struggling, you know, but we've done really well because, teams that are like struggling, you know, but we've done really well because, you know, having that focus on marketing and kind of showing off the lifestyle and just giving people something to aspire to, or just like something to pull inspiration from, that's worked very well for us,

but that's always been the model that we've tried to use. It's a better financial investment. I mean, when you look at, I mean, the operating budget for like a world tour team is like $20 million. It's like crazy. You gotta get the RV and like the whole thing. Like it's a major, you're running a huge business in order to do that. But ultimately to your point of a cycling team being, you know, a marketing vehicle for brands,

how are you gonna get the most bang for your buck on an ROI level? It's like the storytelling and the inspiration that comes from what it is that you do is much more powerful and will translate in a more meaningful way to the end consumer who's looking to buy a bike or whatever product it is that you're, you know, sponsored by versus somebody standing on a podium in some race in Belgium getting kissed on the cheek by a girl. And that's the European model. Is that even meaningful anymore? I mean, winning is powerful.

Winning is a lot of the reason that we are where we are. Winning is power. and how you position yourself to market that and use that influence to kind of create this following is what's important. In Europe, they're still doing, you know, when I was in Europe, they wanted you to do like 75 race days or something. Right. Which is a lot. You're like living in Belgium. It's freezing. It's raining out.

It just sounds miserable. Which is a lot. So you need the winning. It's raining out. It just sounds miserable. Which is a lot. So you need the winning. But on the same token, like we've, you know, building content around specific event, what we've noticed is that you don't need that many events.

You need maybe 10 events on the year with like a really good content creation plan. And usually we're at these races for like four or five days. So like throughout those days, the training rides, the community interaction that we do, all that stuff, capturing all of that can create content for months. So if you have 10 events on the year and you're creating these full content kind of layouts with these plans and understanding what you're trying to capture and understanding what your vision your vision is and, and who you're trying to, um, the audience that you're trying to capture, like you can do that in 10, 10 races, right? How do you balance, you know, running this team, being the manager and all the, you know, administrative things that go into that with like the training and the racing um i've gotten lucky honestly um my fitness definitely isn't what it was when when i was just riding in 2018 i literally just trained with my little brother all the time didn't complain um put in the hours and then and i was really just being his training partner i was like i'm pretty much done i just want to

have a year where i kind of enjoy enjoy the things that I love about the sport and going to different cities and really going to these nice restaurants and hanging out with friends that I've had, doing all that. And then once I got into running the team, it was a lot more work than I thought it was going to be initially. Because on my own, I was like, oh, I can do this for six other guys. And it just, it became a whirlwind. So this year or for 2021, I actually hired a couple of people to come on and help me

with that because yeah, it's, it's almost impossible. It's, you know, doing 20 to 25 hours of training and then also getting done with that and having to jump on like zoom calls or being meetings uh having to do design work all of this stuff even little things like build like the team's uh information sheet on like google docs like all that stuff takes so much time that it was catching up to me where i was like i I'm not going to be very good if I have to do these nine things. But when I first started, I knew it was going to be a lot of work, and I knew it was just going to be a sacrifice. I was like, man, I've had three extremely good years of racing.

I can take a year or two off. I could take a year or two and be slightly less good. With the team, though, with the full team that's built around me, which also makes it easier, hopefully that balances out things a little bit and really focus on building something that, that's going to be important to me and impactful for people. Right. I've heard you talk about how, you know, the fitness part in the whole scheme of like performance is just one piece of this puzzle. And really, at least with respect to crit racing,

like the superpower that you have is being able to kind of read everything and be, it's like a chess match and you have to be, you know, 10 steps ahead of everybody else and kind of know where to position yourself and where to be so that you're in the right place at the right time.

Yeah. And that's kind of like a life skill too, right? Like if you can apply that to how you're building the team or how you're living your life, like there seems to be a lot of- That's what COVID has given me. It's given me this understanding and this space to transition kind of that race tactics that I use in races.

Now applying that to business and kind of the way I like operate in my life and just positioning yourself with patience, understanding and the information that you have to get the best result. And yeah, it's been really kind of interesting to see my, or to feel really my brain kind of shift because I don't have racing to kind of really using that knowledge and information of tactics and applying that to like other things in my life. It's been kind of fun. Right. So you're like, that guy's doing that, but if I'm here and then six months from now, then I'm going to be over here. I think the biggest misconception about racing that everyone has is that it's not like other sports where if you're the strongest, you win. Or it's not like a lot of other things where if you're the strongest, you win.

Cycling, it seems like everyone gets into the sport and they go, if I can build the fitness, I can be the best. And it's like the furthest thing from the truth because you're never going to be, we're all human. You're never going to be so much better than someone, especially in criteriums where they're like six corners, four corners, eight corners, where you got to know how to handle your bike. You got to know how to ride in the Peloton so that you're not wasting energy. wasting energy. You got to know kind of how the Peloton is reacting to things so that you can know when to be in a position so that you can capitalize. There's all of these things happening. And also you're looking at different individuals and riders and going like, okay, like I know this guy can go from a mile out. So at a mile, I got to make sure that I'm close to him where I can see what he's doing. I know this guy wants to go early, or I know this guy wants to go out. So at a mile, I got to make sure that I'm close to him where I can see what he's doing.

I know this guy wants to go early, or I know this guy wants to go late. So you're figuring out all of this stuff while understanding the course, knowing and having to be good at the corners, bouncing off of people at 30 miles an hour. And all of this stuff is happening. It's my favorite thing in the world because it is this moving chess game where like, if you can master the game, the fitness matters a little bit less. Yeah. I was watching a video of you and your brother doing kind of like a race recap while watching, like you had a GoPro and you had this crit. It was so hectic. Like my hands were sweating. It's crazy. Just watching this, like it really is a contact sport. And you're having this crit. It was so hectic. Like my hands were sweating. It's crazy. Just watching this, like it really is a contact sport

and you're so close to these guys bouncing off of them and like going into these corners and pushing just like crazy watts. And for most of the race, like you're pretty kind of far back and then you just figure out like how to get right to where you need to be. That's all depending on what the vibe is.

Like that all depends on like the first is. That all depends on the first... I break races down into sections so the first 10 minutes I'll just feel what's happening and how people are reacting. The next 20 minutes you're looking at if the peloton is awake and if they're

attentive or if they're lazy because if they're lazy you have to stay forward because you're going to have to follow more. If they're attentive or if they're lazy, because if they're lazy, you have to stay forward because you're going to have to follow more. If they're attentive, you can kind of sit back and chill and be like, oh, the race is fast. Like nothing's going anywhere. At the end of the day, most races, most criteriums average 28, 29 miles an hour, I know that someone would have to be crazy strong. Plus, you would have to have the right group of six guys up the road for it even to have a chance.

So yeah, you can be kind of chill in that moment. And then toward the end, you just have to start watching the good guys because you're like, okay, we're 40 minutes in, we're 45 minutes in. Now I know there's 10 guys maybe that can actually do something in this moment. And then once that window passes of like, oh, they had a 10 minute window to do something or a 15 minute window to do something, no one's done anything. By that time, my team's already kind of gathering at the front and now they're going to control what the field does. So it's pretty much the same cycle. And while we're capable of

racing races in different ways, like, you know, I'll look at the race from the beginning and feel it out at these different points and kind of know how to react to that. But having teammates who all know their role and working together as a unit seems so crucial to that success, right? How are you going to get your lead out? And then I'm looking at you in 2018, like winning these races without any teammates. Yeah. How does that work? So like racing without teammates,

you have to be more attentive, but you have to race to your strengths. Like I'm pretty fast. I can sprint. I'm a sprinter. So what I can do better than anyone else is do 1800 watts for three seconds. Which for people that don't know is the naps.

Yeah, I can do a massive effort really quickly. And that's how I'll race. Because if I close a gap super fast because I sprinted across and you're not a sprinter and you're behind me, even if you're on my wheel, the effort that it's going to take for you to stay with me is going to cook you. And if I can do that effort 20 times, 30 times, most people, their max wattage is like 1,200 watts. So if I'm riding across something that's 1,800 watts, which is significantly more, even if you're on my wheel, you're going to 110% to try to close the gap where maybe it was only 80% for me. And then you can dial it back and recover.

And then I can dial it back, get there, recover. And not only that, I've pulled you out of your comfort zone now. So like now you've done an effort that doesn't suit you and you have to try to recover from it. It just like takes much more out of people. So on the opposite side of that, it would be like me riding all day at threshold. I'm not a threshold guy. I'm not a guy that's going to ride this medium effort all day.

It's going to kill me, and then I'm not going to be able to sprint at the end. But at the same time, cycling is the only sport where sprinters are in races that go on for hours. Yeah, there is no weight class there is no category it's it's a super weird space yeah like yeah because i'm 180 pounds you know like i'm racing against guys that are 140 pounds right 130 pounds and they go like once the road goes up it's like a very big disadvantage to have to carry that weight up and over climbs uh and it's always something that i thought was kind of weird but you know cycling is great because there's different there's different events and different things for everyone different kind of races for everyone but

yeah like you have to survive those races as that bigger guy so um now that's why you have you know a team where because like on a day like that, it's just someone else's day. And we do our best and I'll do my best to put that person into position because I know what my role is when we show up to a road race. If I get selected for the team, I'm like, oh, my role is to like protect the GC guy and kind of use my knowledge of racing to just position them right. I could be in position 10 times out of 10. And if I can do that and have my GC guy or my climber on my wheel before I get blown off the back, then that's a job well done. I can be proud of that. And I can go, you know, I can hold my head high if that guy gets a result because, like, I did my job in putting him in the right position to do well on that day.

And it's just that indifferent situation for different people. Right. Well, let's take it back, man, because your backstory is kind of amazing. Growing up here and how you got into cycling and the role that your dad played and all of that. Can you talk a little bit about that? Yeah, man. My parents are Belizeans. And Belize soccer and cycling are the biggest sports.

And my dad has always ridden. I literally remember he had this Eddie Merckx frame and Corey was a baby and his bike was next to the crib. And Corey took like this little toy hammer and chipped his bike. Dude, it was not good for Corey. But it's always been in the family. He grew up cycling in Belize. Yeah, he grew up cycling in Belize. He raced, right?

He was actually a runner before he got into cycling. And because the glamour of cycling in Belize, he stopped running to do cycling. I didn't realize that cycling was a big deal in Belize. It's massive, man. We go down every year to do this race called the Cross Country. It's Holy Saturday Cross Country Race. It's on, I think it takes place on Holy Saturday, they call it. Yeah, but it's massive, man.

We go- That's the one where you won and your dad finally figured out that you were good at this and you like want a piece of land or something i want a piece of land it's so cool but the race is 144 miles um the whole country is out on the side of the road this is a massive point of pride where if a Belizean wins, the whole country celebrates. And if a Belizean doesn't win, everybody's super pissed off for the rest of the weekend. Dude, it's crazy how different the vibe is from when someone that is Belizean wins versus how they don't win. How often does a Belizean win?

Not very often. It sounds like Comrades Marathon in South Africa. Yeah. You know, there's this double marathon race every year. Have you done Comrades? You've done it twice. Yeah, like the whole place goes insane for it, right? Yeah.

It's like the Super Bowl. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. So it's like that. It's 144 miles. But seriously, man, there's probably like 70 or 80 prizes out on the road so like every like mile there's like a gift basket a cake a bull there's a bull up for grabs like

there's money airline tickets vacations like every like town basically and most of the companies that are in the country gives a prize so like like, dude, people are sprinting all day to try to get these prizes. And then by the time you're coming back, there's like 30 dudes left. You know what I mean? Because everyone like got their prize and they're like, yeah, I'm good.

I got my like $2,000 prize. I'm going to go home now. I'm good. And that's a lot of money, man. It's actually two grand is a lot of money. That's how much some of the bigger races pay here. So it's this massive event. So your dad did that race?

My dad did that race for years, man. And I think the best place he got was like, I think like fourth or something. That's pretty good though. I think it's pretty good. But, you know, he's, I mean, for the amount of times that he he did it i was like you couldn't win once come on man so when did when did they move to la and why'd they move uh i don't know why they moved uh they moved over in their 20s um and they moved over separately um and then got together when they when they were here um but yeah it was it, it's massive on my mom's side of the family,

which I didn't know until I got older. Like there's like, you know, her cousins have won that race. Maybe like one year, it was like 10 years that they did it. And I think they won it eight out of the 10 years, but I had no idea.

Like no one explains this to you when you're a little kid and you're like, oh yeah, I like bikes. That's pretty dope. It's like something where families build legacies around stuff like that right like and that could be like a military family or a family that goes to the nfl or etc and i had no idea huh so then i started riding one day because my dad it was winter time uh my dad left his um his bike on the trainer and i kind of always been interested i've been like fascinated because my dad always had pretty bikes and stuff um and I really got hooked one year he raced for this team

that had GTs and it was like the it was like probably the first aero bike ever it was like this badass looking GT it was like this green metallic green and like purple paint job and I like fell in love with it I was like I want that bike you know so he left his bike on the train and I just started riding it one day and like you know after Corey chipped his bike it was like very known that you don't touch my dad's bike his bikes uh and he just like watched me so I just like I just went for it and then I rode it and then obviously the seat was too high because I was a kid I was like 12 or something 13 um so the seat was too high because I was a kid. I was like 12 or something, 13. So the seat was too high.

So then he came over and he like the second day that I rode, he like put the seat down. He's like, okay, cool. You want to ride? Let's see. Dude, this man made me ride that trainer for two months before he took me out on the road. Just like every day. He wouldn't say anything. He wouldn't be like, yo, get on the bike.

It's time to train. He wouldn't say anything. I just like went back to the bike and was like, I'm going to ride today, see what he says. And little by little, he got me shoes. He got me all the right equipment to really ride. So he wasn't pushing you. He was just observing you. No, he actually tried to give me a bike when I was maybe 10. It was this Bianchi. I'll never forget it. He brought this Bianchi home. It was this Celchi. I'll never forget it. He like brought this Bianchi home. It was like this Celeste and like orange Bianchi frame. And it was my size. And I was like riding it around our yard.

And we live next to this alley. So it was maybe like 500 meters long or like 400 meters long. And I was riding it up and down and up and down. I was like, gosh, this is sick. I'm doing it. And I remember my mom telling me to let CJ

my middle brother ride the bike and then my dad came outside and looked at me and was like you're not serious and he took the bike dude he didn't get it from me he was like nah you're not serious he took it away from me I never saw it again

he was like you're not serious so like getting on a trainer and kind of doing it on my own you're like 10 he's mad at you that you're not serious about a sport you've gone on the bike for the first time 100 dude you're not serious and i was like what first of all you need to talk to your wife she's the one that told me to let me hardcore yeah so then when i started riding the trainer he was like all right cool like he started giving me like slowly but surely giving me stuff and he's like all right you're ready to ride he started giving me, like, slowly but surely giving me stuff. And he's like, all right, you're ready to ride. And he swears he didn't, but I would not forget this.

He took me on a ride. It was, like, 70 miles. And, like, I was on PCH, and I was, like, cramping and shit. And I was like, bro, he didn't tell me to eat. He didn't tell me to drink. He didn't give me any information. He was just like, just handle it, son. So we got, like— Do you think that was by design? Yeah, I think he was trying to just handle it son so we got like that's by design yeah i think he was trying

to figure out like i don't know if he was trying to figure out if i really wanted to do it or if like how tough i was but it was definitely like a like either you're gonna sink or swim because he understood how brutal cycling was yeah he grew up in you know the old school of cycling where like you know i think he said his first the first first bike he got, he welded the bottom bracket in. Oh, wow. Or he got someone to weld the bottom bracket in. So, he was like, it's not a game. It's not, especially for him, he had, like, these brutal kind of experiences with the sport.

And, like, that was cool. Like, that was, like, what the culture was back then. So, like, he was just like, yeah, man, like you gotta be tough. It's like in today's age, it would be, the idea would be like, let's make sure he like has a good experience so that he wants to do it more. Right? He was like trying to flame you out on the first ride. And I mean, I think there's something to be said about, there's not a lot of kids in cycling right now because like it is super hard and either you're going to learn it either you're going to learn it the easy way or the hard way basically

and the easy way would be like yeah let's make sure you have a good experience but like dude there's days where you're out and you're bonking and you're 30 miles from home and you got to be able to like man up and ride through that you can't be like oh i don't want to do this anymore i'm gonna stop and call an uber like you're not what happens when you're in a race yeah you're not gonna do that you cannot do that so i yeah i think that there's something that you said about at the end of the day you have to be like i i was always taught if you hit the ground in a race or if you crash you get up and you finish the race you figure out what's wrong with your bike you get back in the race

if you can dude i see guys all the time right now which maybe i'm getting old but i'm super irritated because they'll sit in the middle of the road and i'm like get off the goddamn course man what do you do either get up and get back in the race or get off the course. And dudes will be like, just sitting there like, oh, I scratched my elbow. And I'm like, we are not, what is happening? So it's just a different world. And I was lucky enough to get a little bit of the old school and the new school. So I understand both perspectives. I understand the marketing and the social media and the influencer aspect of kind of the new school.

But you came up before that was a thing, right? But I got to get the best of that old school where there was that kind of hard, like, nothing's going to get given to you. I didn't get my first new bike until I was a professional. Right. You know what I mean? I remember having a bike that was like half Campy and half Shimano. uh-huh and i was like bro this is the dopest bike ever right because it was like i had worked so hard to get those parts and like now kids are just like expecting where's my fully drey's tarmac and i'm like psych yeah like relax dude it's not about the it's not about

your equipment you need to not only do you need to earn that, like if you think in your head that the only reason that these guys are winning is because they're on the best equipment, like you're sadly mistaken. But back on the PCH, when you flamed out, dad just split, right? Like he just kept riding.

Yeah, he looked at me and he got mad because I had on boxers under my biking shirt because I was uncomfortable. Because I was a kid and I was like, I didn't understand bike shorts and I didn't want to wear them. So I had boxer shorts under and he lifted up my leg because I was cramping. He tried to massage out the cramp and he was like, didn't I tell you not to wear boxers under your shorts? And I was like. No, you didn't tell me anything.

Yeah, bro, that's real uncomfortable. I'm not really. I was like. No, you didn't tell me anything. Yeah, bro. That's real uncomfortable. I'm not really. I'm not there yet, dad. And he was like, whatever. He was like, just stay here. And I was like, all right. I don't know what that means.

But all right. So I was just sitting on PCH. And he left. He's like, rode off. And I was like. I guess he was trying to get back to his group. The group. Because I had been dropped. He just left.

He didn't tell me anything, and I didn't understand because I was half dead from bonking, from not eating any calories on this four-hour ride. But my aunt came and picked me up, and I don't know if this was planned or what. Right, somebody made a phone call. Yeah. I mean, that goes one of two ways either. Like I'm never doing this again. Like that was miserable. Or like, I'm going to prove to him that I can, I can man up on this.

I had already had, had this, I already had this thing in my head where I was going to show him anyway, because like, I remember asking him, could I race? And he was like, nah, he was like, you should do something else. He was like, you can do modeling. You can do some other stuff. You can play. He was like, stick to football. You're good at football.

Stick to football. Mom wasn't down with football, though. Mom was not down with football. So, yeah, it was just like this roller coaster of like, you know, I was going to prove him wrong. But there was also another thing that kind of sucked me in, too, which I think that's also missing. There was these two kids that grew up pretty close to me, Alex Garcia and Nico Sinfranca. And they were state champion. And I think Alex was a national champion.

They were both state champions. But the year that I started racing, Alex won the national title. But Alex was like, dude, five foot tall and like 100 pounds. But he was like, he grew up in your neighborhood though? No, he grew up in like Whittier or something. They both grew up in like the Whittier area. But Alex had like, you know, he was a tough kid. Like he didn't have the easiest upbringing either.

He was a Mexican kid. And he was so good. And he was so good. And he was so small. And I was like, there's no way in hell. This is like after playing football, after playing basketball. There's no way in hell this little ass kid is about to be beating me in anything. And this kid is a kid that goes on to be the national champion. So having that level of entry,

so like that's the guy I picked a fight with. Right, little did you know. Little did I know. You hitched your train up to a guy who was going places. Exactly. I mean, it wasn't long before you're winning races. I mean, so you're like 13 at this point, but by 17, you're on Trek Livestrong. 17, I went to Rock Racing.

Oh, Rock Racing first, right. So I signed my first pro contract. So from 13 to, or I guess my first racing year was 14. It was racing age 14, but the way it works is that whatever age you turn in the year that you're racing, that's your racing age. So my birthday is May 26, and I was 13, but because I was turning 14 that year, that was my racing age. was 13 but because I was turning 14 that year that was my racing age so that was my first year of racing was 14 and uh it was very interesting it was very very interesting but from 14 to 17 I turned I turned pro for the first time wow I mean how long was it before you won your first race six months that's crazy yeah it was awesome because I beat Alex and he was like decked out in his like state champion helmet.

And it was like, he had the Oakleys that wrap over your head. Those like futuristic ones. Yeah. Had a skin suit on. I didn't even know what a skin suit was. He had a skin suit on and he just rode my race, man. The race was on a course that I trained on every Tuesday. So I knew like pretty much everything about the course.

He just raced my race. And that was like a lesson for me because I was like, man, if I go out here and I try to ride this guy's race, he's going to destroy me. But if I like manipulate the situation into being like, oh, I'm tired. I can't pull through. Like when you want to pull through or like I'm going to rest now because like we're going up a hill or something. I was just sandbagging the whole time.

And then it came down to a sprint. And like I'm a pretty good sprinter. And like I have been working with my dad about on sprinting on that course on Tuesday nights. And I beat him, dude. He didn't talk to me for like a month. Wow. It was the best, dude, because this is a girl. It's always a girl.

This is a girl named Megan. And she like, they were like kind of a thing, but she was giving me all this attention after that race, dude. And he was like, I'm going to kill you. He was like, I'm going to kill you, dude. And that was it. And it was like, at that point, we were just like locked into this rivalry over this girl. And it was like just bloomed from there. It was like he was, again, he went on to win the national championship. We were just locked into this rivalry over this girl. Always a girl. And it just bloomed from there.

It was like he was, again, he went on to win the national championship. So from that moment, it was like, all right, my arch nemesis is the best guy in the country. So I'm not going to back down. He's not going to back down. Just make each other better. We just made each other so much better. When does Rahsaan enter the picture? Rahsaan had always been in my life, honestly.

I've known Rahsaan forever. He was always around, him and my dad. The black community in cycling is pretty small. So him and my dad used to go back and forth when Rahsaan was younger and racing in the category threes. So I always saw him. And it was cool because he didn't look like kind of your typical hood dude. He was just like this dude that kind of dressed kind of preppy and was like kind of cool. He talked a certain way and he kind of carried himself a certain way. And it was three other guys. It was this guy, Elijah, who still rides. And he actually gave me my first pair of carbon shoes. And it was this guy, Kenny. And those three dudes were like kind of always around.

They were like the younger generation of cyclists. And they were on this team, Major Motion, which is the team that I ultimately went to when I was a junior. And it's a team that I'm bringing back now because the team has kind of gone away. And it's known for bringing up some of the best American cyclists. Like Corinne Rivera, who's led the World Tour

for Women, was on that team. Kendall Ryan, who's won stages of Tour California, was on that team. Kendall Ryan, who's won stages of tour, California was on that team. So it's had like this massive pedigree of success. Uh, and, and I don't know how it went away, but it went away. So I'm, I'm bringing that back for next year. That's cool. Um, so yeah, that was, that was early dude. I think that was like from the beginning, you know what I mean? And he's, he's been, he really started mentoring me. been he really started mentoring like a mentor to you yeah he really started like a really striking charismatic dude yeah you know yeah and he was like he's crazy talented most people don't know his story he doesn't tell his story enough

but rasan's amazing rasan won elite nationals when he was like 17 or something i didn't know which is like would be like a kid showing up to a race now and beating me uh-huh which is not gonna happen but he did that and did that, and that's insane. He was like the favorite for the world championships on the road. He's won 17, 18 road race nationals solo. You know what I mean? So he has like this incredible background that no one really knows about because he doesn't tell his story as much as he should. But he started mentoring me at like maybe 15 or 16.

I remember riding next to him or him coming to get me on his like easy days, taking me out to ride. And he would scream at me if I wasn't like touching handlebars with him. And I'm like, what do you want from me, dude? Like I'm a kid. I don't know what you want me to do. I'm trying. But you come from football. Yeah, exactly. You can mix it up a little. And don't know what you want me to do. I'm trying. But you come from football. Yeah, exactly.

You can mix it up a little. And he comes from football also. So it was kind of this like, which is why it's like Criterium Racing specifically is so perfect for like the culture that we come up in. Because Criterium Racing is like full contact. Yeah. Like we're literally like we're bouncing off each other just to like hold momentum in corners. We're bouncing off each other just to hold momentum in corners. So he really started kind of spending more time with me, maybe 14, 15, 15, 16.

And then he used to lead me out. He used to lead me out on Thursday nights at Long Beach, this training course. People wonder why me and my brother are so good at criterium racing, but we've literally done a crit every Thursday, Tuesday and Thursday for maybe 20 years. Wow. You know what I mean? And that was just tradition. You get home from school on Thursday, you get some food, you figure out how much homework you can get done before you take off to Long Beach on Thursday. I think we would leave at like 5.50, get out of school at like 3.30 or 4, and then 5.50 we'd leave every Thursday.

Every Thursday. So I learned how to do everything on that course. I learned how to control momentum. I learned how to cut corners, figure out ride corners, use corners to gain momentum. I learned how to position myself. I learned how to position myself I learned how to write breakaways like all of this stuff so like we're not so great at criteriums because

like we just are naturally talented at criteriums. The 10,000 hours is a 10,000 hour thing where like for 20 years on Thursday at 7.30 we would be doing this hour long criterium and it was incredible it was like Rasam was out there and he used to lead me out like the Mesa brothers who were

like craziest kids Sergio Hernandez Tony Cruz was on US Postal he used to come out every once in a while who was like Tony Cruz dude like that's crazy and funny enough Tony Cruz kind of like mended the relationship between me Alex and Nico because he gave us all these US

Postal skin suits and they were like, guess we're on teams now. So on Thursday night, we used to use the U.S. Postal skin suits to race together. And I was like, you think it was okay to do that even though you weren't on the team? Exactly. Yeah, no, it was.

It was because it wasn't a race. It was just a training ride. And we're just these little snotty-nosed kids that are, like, pumped at Tony Cruz. Yeah. Which, first of all, I don't know how we fit into his skin suits. But, yeah, he gave us these skin suits. And, like, that kind of created this really cool dynamic between us where we were racing every Thursday together. So, we were like, we should probably be on the same teams.

So then we were on the same teams when we were like 16. Wow. It was sick. And when you joined Rock, Rahsaan was on Rock. Yeah, Rahsaan actually didn't give me a choice. Bahadi came, his team came after that, right? Yeah, Rahsaan didn't give me a choice. He was like, dude, you're coming to Rock racing. Rock just seemed like the weirdest scene though.

Dude, it was incredible. Yeah, Rock kind of- I mean, there was like a guy who came in with a lot of money, right? It was all blinged out. So he used to race. Racing was kind of in his Michael Ball. He used to race. That's right.

Cool guy in the beginning. And actually, Michael is still cool. I still talk to him every once in a while. Cool guy in the beginning. He used to race when he was younger. He got up to like a category three, so nothing like crazy. But he loved racing. And he had a lot of history.

I think his family in racing started a jeans company, like a luxury jeans brand. That took off and blew up. And then when he got to a certain point in that uh he came back to cycling i guess somebody i think it was like this guy halden morris uh he was friends with michael ball and he was kind of in fashion or photography and they kind of linked up and then they started discussing the idea and i think halden brought rasan in because rasan was like on uh basically what is education first rasan was on that team which is another thing where like right teams disappear

now it's education first at the time i think it was tia craft um so he brought rasan in and they built basically built this california super team right and what i remember about that just like observing from a distance, it was, it was sort of like if Von Dutch was a cycling team, but, but it's almost like in a certain respect, there are aspects of it that provided a template for what you would eventually do because they were doing things like it was all rock and roll. Like we're going to break the rules and we're going to be the bad boys of cycling and we're going to do things our way. And some of that worked.

And ultimately, it seems like that whole thing flamed out for a bunch of weird reasons. I think that there was a lot of positives to be pulled from that. Cycling rejected is super hard because it wasn't your. Because when I went to sign my contract for Rock Racing, there was a model in Michael's office and they were having a conversation. I was just like sitting in because I was like, yo, my meeting is about to be over with this girl. Just sit right here and we'll figure it out. And then I remember like seeing this motorcycle helmet in his office and I connected that motorcycle helmet with like megan fox had worn that helmet in the transformer movies and i was like is that what i think it is kind of thing

you know what i mean so it was like and you walk through his office and there's like models everywhere there's clothing everywhere and like that's what rock racing was right there was this there was this understanding that cycling is cooler than people are giving it credit for being. The traveling, the team bus, you're a rock star. Yeah, there was like a party going on at the team bus all the time. It was just really crazy. So I think there was a lot of really good things that came out of that. And that really shaped my perception of cycling, which was a good and a bad thing. Because, like, when I went over to Livestrong, what a cyclist was to me was a superstar.

And I was like, oh, yeah, like, all cyclists are superstars. Everybody on the team got treated, like, really well. And, like, we would be going to, like, these massive parties and stuff. It was very, like, L.A. You would see the bus and the team like all over LA, like on Mulholland, like in Beverly Hills, like in places where you're not expecting to see. Yeah. We had these mass, we had these escalades, like we had a bunch of escalades. We had a Lamborghini team follow car. It was incredible, man. So like in my head, I was like, oh, this is, yeah.

I'm like, this is what it is to be a professional cyclist. This is crazy. Yes. This is what I signed up for, Jesus. Thank you very much. And then when I went to Livestrong, it was like this fully European structured team. And I was like, this is not cycling. Just to explain to people what that means.

It's sort of like you're in the farm system and you get called up and the Trek Livestrong U23 team is kind of the ticket to the big leagues. That was like the team at the time for the young kids who were coming up and a huge opportunity

for any young cyclists, right? But then it just becomes a whole different world that you sour on pretty quickly. Well, the guys that I was on team, like Alex Dowsett was my team and he literally just, he won a stage. He won stage eight yesterday in the Giro. He won a stage of the Giro.

So when you see that, like I know you were like a, you know, you were a domestique for Taylor Phinney. Like these are like the superstars of the sport. When you see Alex winning a stage of the Giro, do you think maybe I should have stayed or are you like, I'm good? Nah, I'm good. Nah, I'm good. I'm still friends with most of my teammates.

I love those guys. They're incredible. Alex was the definition of professionalism. I think he was probably the most professional guy on the team, which is like I'm so proud and happy that after all these years. He has a bunch of British time trial national championships, but he hasn't won a big stage like that yet. I'm very excited. Well, he won a stage at the Giro a couple years ago, right? I think the time trial?

It's a time trial. Yeah, it's a time trial. But it was funny. I was watching his interview, and they were like the time trial. It's a time trial. Yeah. Yeah, it's a time trial. But like, it was funny. I was watching his interview and they were like, is this better than winning a time trial? And he was like,

way better, like way better. And I would agree because the time trial is like, it's a time trial when you're in a race and you're, you know, battling against 120, 140 other dudes and you come out on top.

Like, it's just a different vibe because you're in this this moving game where one of the time trials like really structured yeah and reality check like he he's still looking for a team like exactly like that's how hard it is that a guy like that who just won a stage of the zero yeah doesn't have a home for next year now he will now i'm assuming yeah i'm assuming now he will. But he has a lot of stuff going on too. He does really cool.

Him and his wife do really cool videos. They have a really good social media presence. I feel like maybe that's one of those things where people at the top of cycling don't take kindly to that kind of stuff. Oh, you have your own identity. You have your own thing. It's not really. He he's current british time trial champion how could he not have a job that doesn't even make sense and it's job security to have that right if you have an audience and a following then you're bringing value you would think to that organization yeah you would think but yeah alex was like the epitome of professionalism.

And like, there's a couple other guys. Like, I think this guy, Jesse Surgeon, he's a New Zealand kid. When I got to that team, I think I was 20 or 21. And he had already had an Olympic, he already had an Olympic silver medal or something, which is crazy. That was that team with like Taylor Finney, Jesse. We had two Ben Kings. One of the Ben Kings is currently on NTT, I think. And there's a couple other like really, really good guys.

So I stepped into that team and I was like, well, I kind of felt in between. There was like the guys that were being prepped for Pro Tour. And then there was the guys that were kind of younger and kind of getting in. And I kind of just felt between there in talent and in kind of like understanding of what it was. But there was such a culture shock going from what rock racing was and what my idea of being a professional athlete was to being on this development team. And not only that, we did our team camp with Radio Shack, which was Lance's team at the time. And while we're separate, like being in the same building, same hotel and kind of seeing how they interact, like having bike fittings at the same time as them.

It was kind of like this moment where I was like, whoa, like this doesn't seem that tight. You know what I mean? I was like, this doesn't, this is not what I thought it was. So it was. Just because of the, like the energy and the vibe. Just because of the energy and the vibe of the whole thing. It was so stiff and so boring and no one was, no one felt happy. Lance felt happy because Lance is Lance.

But everyone else kind of felt like they were like just there. You know what I mean? Like they were like there because they had to be there rather than like they had the best job in the world. You know what I mean? Which is like to me, like traveling the world and racing your bike and getting to go to these amazing coffee shops and fantastic restaurants. Like I thought that was what it was. I thought that was the life of a cyclist. And kind of it was like this reality check where it wasn't that at all.

You know what I mean? It wasn't going to these parties that they were giving away Xboxes at. It wasn't, you know what I mean? It wasn't that. You're riding like cobblestones in the rain. Yeah, it wasn't. Like, dude, we took a private jet to New York one year to do a race. A private jet.

I never flew private before. I remember being like, you're not going to ask me to turn my cell phone off? This is fantastic. I'm going to text, okay, because I can. That's what my experience on rock racing was. And then to go to Livestrong, which was the development team, to Radio Shack, which looked like this team that was like so boring and so traditional. I was just like, I don't know.

I was like, I don't know. You did it. So how long were you on that team? A couple years? A year. A year. I was on a national team one year, which I raced in Europe. And then I was on Little Strong for one year.

And I just, when I went over to Europe, I was in Europe for two months. And after that two months, I was just. Pulled the plug. I was over it. I was in Europe for two months. And after that two months, I was just. Pulled the plug. I was over it. I was like, man, like. People must have been like, what are you doing? Yeah, I think so. I think something that I, the year that I pulled the plug was, I pulled the plug in maybe like May.

And I think that I should have just gotten through that year in Europe. But I was just so over it, man. There was no life over there. And growing up in South Central and understanding that you live this life of having to be very careful and not really being able to enjoy being a kid because you're always looking over your shoulder and you're always making sure you're not in the wrong place at the wrong time. When I got over to Europe and I realized that life felt worse, you know what I mean, from where I came from than living in the hood, I was like, I'm not going to do this. I'm not going to conform myself to where I feel like I have no voice. I feel like I have no value. I'm not going to live over here and be treated a certain way to say that I'm pro.

I was like, there has to be another way. And nobody in that situation that you can share that perspective with is going to understand where you're coming from. 100%. Like all the kids, like the American kids that were over there with me at the time wanted to be european so bad you know what i mean they wanted to be belgian or dutch so bad like breaking away like 100 exactly no it's that's exactly it and like i was so it was hard to it was hard to communicate like where's the escalates yeah it was hard to communicate with them it was hard to communicate with them. Where's the escalates? Yeah, it was hard to communicate with them. It was hard to understand why they were willing to not say anything or it was just really hard to understand why it was the way that it was.

And I was just like, nah, you know what? There has to be another way. Do you think if you, if there had been no rock racing and you came up with a more traditional outfit and then went to Europe, that it would have been different? Like you got, it was almost like you got spoiled. No, 100%.

Yeah, I would have probably just like, I would have, maybe I wouldn't be in the sport. I think I would have probably. When you came back from Europe, you tapped out for a while, right? So you didn't, you were like, at that time, did you think you were totally done? Yeah, I was done.

It just wasn't, it wasn't fun. I wasn't having fun. I was like, I'd rather go to college and like live the college life. You know what I mean? I wanted to like hang out with girls and go to parties and stuff. I didn't want to spend 25 hours on my bike. Exactly. Worrying about my weight every day.

Nah, it was over. I got a motorcycle apartment and a job. Went to college, man. And that was it. But it was Corey that pulled you back. Yeah, Corey, I just started getting, he was just starting to get pretty good. So just talking to him again, I was just, that's the second time he saved me i was like hey man but hold up but before that like are you like

listen man here's what you're in for cory's super stubborn if you know anything about younger is he four years uh he was gonna do what he wanted to do anyway i i can't i can't tell cory anything i can kind of like steer him and then he has to experience it. So he was just going to go for it anyway. He was like, ah, it's fine. I understand. He's kind of a Herman anyway. So he'd probably do well over in Europe because he's like very to himself anyway. He just, he loves his training. I live for racing. I don't really care about training. Like training is something that I have to do. Corey like loves his training.

He loves looking at his numbers. He loves figuring out how to get better in a way that's very computed or very structured. And I'm like, I'll put in the hours. I'll do my training to the best of my abilities. And then when we show up to the race, I'll turn it on. And that's always been our race in the shape, the first two months of the year, I'm struggling in races and trying to find my fitness. But then come May, June, I typically start flying,

which is why me and Corey work really well because he's always flying. And then when I come toward the middle of the year, it's kind of a nice break for him because he kind of carries the team in the beginning. But I couldn't tell him, like, hey, man, it sucks over there. He's like, no, it's good. Like, it's fine. Yeah. What did he do to get you to come back in? Did you think you were just going to help him as far as like giving them the tools of like training and like just

some of the things that I learned as far as how to build fitness, how to be the best rider on the bike, trying to teach him tactics and understanding of the racing and how you can take advantage of being smart rather than being strong. So I just wanted to like basically give him as much knowledge as I could before I like kind of peaced out. And then, yeah, and then that year. But when did it click in for you? Like, oh, I forgot that I enjoyed this or like this is. When race season came around.

Like race season came around again and I had been focusing so much on road racing and training the year before. on road racing and training the year before, the next year when I got to do some of the bigger crits in the country, that's when it really was like, oh no, like this is actually sick, right? It was like this year of like no pressure because I was like, I just joined like a local team that was gonna go out to do some of the national stuff, but not a full season.

And I just had so much fun. Like I wasn't even winning anything. I was just like being competitive and like running into people and like almost crashing. And I was like, yeah, this is tight. But there's something about that, like going into it without any expectations other than like, I'm just here to have fun and enjoy it and support my brother. That allowed you to connect with like why it was meaningful to you in the first place. Yeah.

And then I had to like go through figuring out that. So I knew I didn't want to be pro in Europe. So then I had to go through this process of figuring out why I didn't want to be pro in America. Because it also sucked. And I was like, damn, man. I'm just trying to have fun. And everyone's ruining the fun of this sport. And I don't understand why.

I saw glimpses of success and glimpses of promise as far as what the sport could be. But people just kept, like I said, there's this active suppression of anyone getting too big or anyone gaining any kind of influence with sponsors. So weird. And it's like this, this massive control thing. So I was riding for teams where I wrote for this team one year where we had, I think we had like green helmets. We had green and blue helmets that the Jersey was like maroon and gun metal. And then we had like yellow shoes and then like a white and yellow bike. And I was like,

it's a clown outfit. I was like, this is a clown outfit. I can't wear this. I was like, it's a clown outfit. I was like, this is a clown outfit. I can't wear this. I was like, dude, when you put on your uniform, when you're playing football or basketball, you put on your uniform, there's a point of pride of wearing that uniform. You're like, yes, this is business time. You train in whatever. But when you put your race jersey on, it's like time for business. You're proud of it. And you're going into battle. And you have your armor on.

Cycling isn't like that, man. Or has it been like that traditionally? You put on this jersey full of sponsors and you're like, nothing matches. Yeah. That is weird. But then there also are all these weird unwritten rules about sock height and whether the sunglasses go over your strap or under your strap. All this kind of bullshit that for people that are getting into cycling, they get intimidated or ridiculed. Yeah, because people don't know how to express certain things.

If it's cool to wear your glasses over your helmet strap, then relay that information in a way that's positive. Relay that information in the way that's like, hey, man, let me help you out. But instead, it's kind of like, oh, look at this idiot or look at this Fred or look at this whatever. or look at this whatever. It's like looking for every moment to kind of like down, like push someone down rather than kind of helping someone because you have this shared and common interest.

So it is ridiculous. Like, who cares, man? Like, get out of here. It's a big deal though. People get all caught up in that. For what reason? Listen, when you're like, look, you're putting on,

you know, when you're putting on your armaments to go into battle and the pride that comes with that, for even the weekend warrior cyclist, there's a little bit of that too. I mean, there should be. I think now more than ever too, especially with like how Rafa kind of came on the scene and made it cool to like,

oh, you need to like, you gotta care about kind of what you look like and how you feel. Except that shit's lot for that. Oh, you need to like, you got to care about kind of what you look like and how you feel. Except that shit's so crazy expensive. Yeah, exactly. I know. Hopefully, you know, once you buy something like that and you have it for a long time. And if you're like, that's why I love how simplistic like a lot of their designs are because they're classic.

They're not going to go out of style the following season. Exactly. Right. I'm like that duck kit yeah or like if you buy a jersey with a ton of sponsors on it not only could those sponsors

change from that team but like what if you don't wanna rock those sponsorships anymore what if something comes out with that that

company that you don't agree with anymore it's like you're not gonna wanna wear that and so now you spent like a hundred dollars in this jersey that you don't wear anymore versus like the 150 you spent in the Rafa Jersey, but you can always wear it. It's always, it like basically becomes an asset. Yeah. There's, there's the high quality of it and there's the aesthetic of it, but also

they did, they worked very hard to create culture around it. Like their retail stores are an experience. You go in there and you get a sense for the flavor of the lifestyle. And it's a lot about lifestyle and community. And like, that's what they do. That's like incredible, man. Like for me, being able to go into a Rafa store and kind of just chat it up

with like a bunch of like their regular customers is like, that's so dope. And the fact that you have something like that where you can have a coffee. Like when I lived in LA, I would always end a lot of my rides at Rafa and get like a coffee and like they used to have like avocado toast and I was like, perfect. And I used to just sit there for like maybe an hour and just, you know, people are constantly coming in and out of that. That's so important for community where people have this kind of hub where you never know who you're going to stumble upon when you walk in there.

Like T.J. Van Garden was the white jersey in the Tour de France. He's been in there before. Taylor Finney's been in there before. The national champion, Alex House, has been in there. Like, that's crazy. Imagine being able to go to a basketball court where they give away or where they sell Gatorades, let's say, and LeBron just happens to be on a court one day. You're like, anybody else?

Is anybody else looking at LeBron James right now? That's the cool thing about cycling and multi-sport in general. Yeah, I mean, that's the cool thing about cycling and multi-sport in general. Like I just know, you know, training in the Santa Monica mountains, you know, I live like, you know, right in the middle of all of that. And you can be out, especially in the winter months and you'll see these European teams.

Dude, Garrett Thomas. And they're all staying in the area. Who's won the Tour de France? Yeah, it's like, I've seen George Hincapie ride his bike past my house. That's crazy. You know, it's like, what? That's crazy. Or Mark Cavendish or, you know, these people like, you know, it's wild that that's the case and they're accessible and you see them on television

racing the Tour de France, but they're just dudes. And that's like the best part about cycling is that that's definitely a part of why it's so cool is that. Another thing is not only that, is there's so many different types of people. For me, coming from South Central, getting into cycling and being introduced to all of these people from different backgrounds and professional kind of industries, it opened my mind up to what was possible. And I think for me, getting more kids of color into the sport where they can just have that understanding and opening of perspective and having their minds kind of like, you are more than what the statistics say you are. I grew up in a place where we didn't have the best education system. We didn't have like a lot of inspiration to be more than, you know, what you saw people

being successful in the hood doing, which was like drug dealing or whatever, or hustling or whatever. So to get into a, to get into this sport where there's doctors, there's lawyers, there's people that do things that you never even thought were jobs, like filmmaking and set design and all this other stuff that own businesses. And to be able to have access to just those conversations is incredible. It completely changed what I wanted out of life because no longer was I like, oh man, my life is pretty limited. What I'm going to do, become a teacher or become like a... The job field when you're growing up in LA USD feels very limiting and getting into a space where

people do all kinds of things kind of changed everything for me. And I think that even just that, putting that in front of some kids, man, that could like be the difference between, you know, them ending up in jail or them ending up with a marketing career and working at a brand like Specialized. And like, I think that's extremely important. Everybody's not going to be a bike racer. Everyone's not going to get it. But that doesn't mean that the industry of cycling isn't rich in opportunity. 100%.

But they have to be able to see somebody that they can relate to and identify with. Right. Someone has to make it okay. You can be Rahsaan for the way in which Rasaan mentored you and you now have the ability to do that for, you know, all of these young people. Because cycling, you know, it's like golf. It's so inaccessible. And it's like these bikes are freaking expensive. So you're going to take these kids to the Rafa store.

I mean, it's like you might as well take them to Rodeo Drive or something like that. Yeah, but at the same – so I've been trying to attack this issue with the understanding. We're right now in a transition period where we're going from rim brake bikes to disc brake bikes. And rim brake stuff almost has no value now. So that entry point is way less now. And that's what was so cool about the fixie scene is that somebody will give you a fixed gear bike. You can get a fixed gear bike for a couple hundred bucks. That's a pair of Jordans.

If you want to do it, if someone that you like is doing it, you'll figure out a way to obtain that. When the fixie scene got massive, it was cool for me to step into that world and really be in be in front of those kids because I was like, I would be obviously way better than them. And they'd be like, dude, like, how are you so good? And they'd be like, oh, I'm so good because I ride road. Now there are a lot of bikes that you can get like the LA and there's a lot of aluminum bikes that you can get that are not free, but like definitely like inexpensive. And if you can buy a second hand dude you could probably i'm sure you can find a aluminum bike out there for like a couple hundred bucks and that's that's the that's the entry point yeah the fixie scene seems like

the a great like on wrap for this whole thing and that was really the kind of spark that brought you back into the like you went through a couple of these team situations and your brother didn't get re-upped with the team. But it was like, then you got into the fixie scene and that kind of changed things for you. Well, when I stepped into the fixie scene, now there was purpose, right? It was more than like, oh, I got to race

and I got to get results and I got to try to win nationals. Now it was like, man, like I could like help a bunch of people kind of discover this like really cool sport and like travel outside of their city and travel outside of their state and kind of open their mind to something else, something different. So it just became like more fulfilling that when I would show up to fix the events, like I would see people that I went to school with.

Like, oh, I went to school with someone that reminds me of this guy. Or like the culture within the Fixie scene just felt more authentic and more real and more down to earth and like less just mental. And it was just everything. I wanted out of cycling. Like I wanted the travel and the racing and the winning and all

that stuff. But I also wanted to kind of have that culture and have those conversations and like have that comfortable home environment. So I really wanted to like merge them together. And I was like, how, how can I do that? And that's where like everything kind of was rekindled for me. And I was like, okay, now I have purpose. Now I can take everything that? And that's where like everything kind of was rekindled for me. And I was like, okay, now I have purpose. Now I can take everything that I've learned from cycling, good and bad. And I can like maybe help some people have an understanding of how they can use this to their benefit or just take something from the sport like I had taken from the sport. And that could be traveling the country, that could be meeting certain people, that could be a different perspective, or that could be going,

trying to go pro. So I just wanted to share all of that. And race results are only one small piece of that whole thing. Exactly. I think a lot of people get caught up in one or the other. Like, yeah, we do a lot of marketing and like social media is important, but like winning is also important. Training is also important. Giving back is also important. The winning is important only for the purpose of, you know, creating aspiration for the people that you're trying to help. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So when I first started winning races or my perspective on winning, it was always that it came with a responsibility. And maybe I think that a lot of that came from Rahsaan because he gave back to me

a lot and he spent a lot of time with me that he didn't have to spend. So my mind was, you know, when I start winning and when I get this massive platform and when I'm good enough to influence other people, it's my job to do the best that I can to give back to someone that like was giving back to, basically. Yeah, and then telescoping out and looking at the world of cycling from 10,000 feet, there's a lot of work to be done, man. There's one black dude at the Tour de France, right?

That French guy. Yeah, Kevin Reza. Yeah. Yeah, Gregory Bouger is a French track sprinter. There's a couple of African riders. There's like five guys on the world tour? Yeah, there's the kid named Nicholas that rides for NTT. That's really good.

There's a couple of incredible guys. But again, if you see it from my perspective, they're not really giving the green light to like go win something you know what i mean like um and daniel i can't pronounce his last name but daniel was a kid that uh raced for um what what is the ntt uh squad now he was in a polka dot jersey at the tour de france uh and he doesn't have a pro contract anymore because I'm assuming that he asked for a bigger contract, right? Because he had worn the polka dot jersey at the Tour de France, which is a massive deal. And they were probably like, nah. Wow.

Nah, you take what we give you. We're granting you, we're giving you the opportunity to like get into that jersey. That was us. That wasn't you. So he doesn't have a pro tour team now. Yeah. And the organization just really, you know, stumbling over itself to appropriately deal with Black Lives Matter in any kind of reasonable, responsible way. And they can't because they just aren't on,

they just don't believe in it. They're disconnected from it and they don't, it's not their problem. And like, that's how they handle it. Like, it's not our problem. And we don't have that problem here. And it seems like Kevin did only a little, like only what he could do,

which was very little in the construct of like being on this team and what he's up against. Yeah, so, yeah, it's- So how do you, like, beyond like what you're doing with Legion, like how does that problem get solved? For me, I don't, I have no intentions on trying to convince anyone of anything. I spent like a lot of my career waiting for people to do the right thing and try to like basically show people, like have these conversations where I'm like hey man like these are the reasons why either this is

wrong or something needs to be done um i just i'll just build it myself like i i don't want to waste any more energy um either they get it or not and if they get it then fantastic but we'll lead by example and we'll lead by continuing to do good things rather than like waiting for someone to do the right thing or trying to convince someone to do the right thing. I'll say this over and over again. European racing is fantastic for Europe and they can have that. I love watching it. I super support it. But what we're doing here in America, I think, with criterium races is just underutilized.

And I think that there's a space where we can build something that's as influential, if not more influential, as far as like having a diverse kind of landscape and culture. And then from there, we'll just raise the standard and either they keep up with that standard or they don't. But it's not I don't think it's my not, I don't think it's my job. And I don't think it's, you know, and I think that they've had a crazy amount of time to address the situation and they haven't. So I'm not going to continue to be the dead horse. Like, you know, it's funny. What I've learned is that when you start to kind of move things forward, people all of

a sudden understand what was happening. But if you're asking them to do it versus being the example and actually doing it, you get two different results. Yeah. Well, from a spectator perspective and like an audience enjoyment, you know, point of view, criterium races are just superior. So like, what are you going to, like for these tours, like you go and sit there all day and watch them ride by for 10 seconds. Like, I don't understand why people do that.

But that's the thing is that they basically tailgate and that's a part of their culture. I'm sure it's so fun. I'm sure it's super fun. But if you're at a criterium, you're watching, you can see this whole thing unfolding and you're seeing these guys go by many times a day. And it's, there's something electric about it about it yeah you're watching the race mutate you're you're feeling the energy

of the peloton like it's just a different world it's way more exciting and riveting and kind of like there's crashes happening but there's also like you're seeing the teamwork you're seeing everything happen in a way that like you just it's just harder to understand unless you know everything about cycling. Unless you have a real understanding of cycling, it's hard to watch that on TV and then you're watching it for four or five hours. You know what I mean? In America, it's hard to shut down cities to allow a bike race to pass through it. But what you can do is shut down a city block and barrier it off, make it feel like and look like a block party, and then watch these dudes ride around that circuit at 30 miles

an hour, right? It feels like an event and it's an experience. And that's why I think that criterium racing, at least here, is the future. And they take place in urban areas. Yeah, yeah, downtown. Where you can create visibility for the kind of kids that you're, you know, trying to entice into this world. And, you know, I do think that that's like the way forward. Yeah, it's perfect because we work with a nonprofit, OutRide, which is like allows us to go into schools and kind of just tell the story of like why racing is cool, why criterium racing is cool.

But like, you know, moving into next year, you know, after hopefully everything with COVID starts to kind of clear up and get better, uh, at some point we'll be back in the schools at these big events and being able to invite them out. So not only do we tell them like why cycling is cool and like what our story is and how anything is possible, they can come out to these races and kind of bang on the boards uh and experience that race and that energy and that vibe um and i think that that has the potential to like change a lot of yeah and you and you being like a strong presence in that in that world and carrying yourself in a certain way where these

young people look at you and they're like i want to be like that right and that's where the aesthetics of the whole thing are super important you know like the kit is it has to be dope and everything like cory shows up to races man i'm surprised he hasn't worn a suit to a race yet yeah like he shows up to races and he's like full flight like same way like lewis hamilton or something exactly the same way you see nba players walking into like the arenas or like whatever their fit, like, you see NBA. Like Lewis Hamilton or something. Exactly. Same way you see NBA players walking into, like, the arenas or, like, whatever their fit is. Like, that's how he shows up to races. That's how I show up to races. That's hilarious.

And, like, not only is the kit important, but, like, when people see you off the bike, that's also important. Like, how are you carrying yourself? Like, you have to look the part. You have to be professional. You have to, like, people have to want to be you in a way. Right. And they have to, they have to imagine themselves like,

yeah, man, I can live that life. That sounds, that looks dope. And like in cycling, it's like anti-culture. It's like people wear,

people carry themselves with like, you know why I'm cool? Because I don't care. And it's like, who, like, dude, who who's who respects that like dress a pro dress nicely dress appropriate care like have some kind of swag because at the end of the day like that's what's gonna i know for me that's what's gonna get people like me into it right like if some kid sees me wearing like birkin socks and like cargo shorts they're gonna be like nah yeah nah so i don't know what's wrong with you sir but that's

not it and like that's you know it's as crazy as it sounds that's super important to to getting people inspired and wanting to do it what's the, like when it's all written, the legacy that you want to leave behind with Legion and like your career, like what's the impact? The Legion was the first step in kind of learning and feeling out what it's going to take to completely change the sport. And I think by having control of like what teams look like, what events look like, I think having that control and power will allow for me to make sure that

cycling turns into this thing that's very cultured. So I hope that what we leave behind as far as a legacy is this space where people from every walk of life can come into this space and just feel comfortable and have an opportunity to not only make a living, but maybe become a superstar and kind of use that and hopefully create something where they can elevate what we've done and take it to the next level. So I always think about it like this. The NBA was nothing 50 years ago. The NBA was terrible 50 years ago.

Why can't you build something within cycling that in 50 years is valuable and you have all these opportunities for all of these people? Yeah, I love that. What is the message that you want to leave for the young person who is listening to this thinking? Go do 70 miles, no food. Yeah, don't eat. Wear your boxer shorts under your cycling bib. I think it would be, cycling is a freeing thing. Even if you don't want to be pro,

it's something that could change your life if you give it a chance. And once you start to ride, pay less attention to kind of what you have and more attention to kind of putting your head down and putting in the work. Like persistence is something that has gotten me to where I am. I'm 31 years old now. Being persistent and really believing in something and doing it wholeheartedly and not being afraid to put in the work. Once you're doing something that you love doing, you're going to be okay. You're going to be fine. Stop worrying so much about, for me,

I see a lot of kids that are worrying about training like the Europeans or training like a pro when they're like 17 or riding the best. Like that's not important. What's important is enjoying the journey that you get to go on in, in ending up wherever you're going to end up in the sport. And hopefully you end up either, you know, in a job in the sport or in the, as a pro, whatever the case may be, meeting someone that leads to a job opportunity, whatever, enjoy the journey because building those memories is ultimately what's going to shape how you feel and look back at your life and what that means to you.

That journey is what's important. Being proud at the end of the day that you got to whatever, travel, whatever the case may be. Focus on the journey, focus on the moment. Stop worrying so much about what you think success is, right? What you think is cool in the moment. Just focus on the journey. And every day you get to, if you get to ride your bike, enjoy that because a lot of people don't get to do something as cool as ride their bike every day. It's a gift, man. And I would say that other than the conversations that I get to have because of this podcast, the conversations that I've had on the bike with people are some of the most amazing conversations I've ever had with anyone because you're out for hours and you really get to know people. And that's where the community comes from,

that one-on-one interaction with other people. And then in addition to that, there is no machine that has been created by man to create suffering more than the bike. It's hard to be mad. Suffering is the teacher. That is your guru, man. It's hard to be mad on a is the teacher you know like that is your guru man

it's hard to be mad on a bike everything you need to know about life from suffering on a bicycle it's incredibly humbling yeah and I'm sure you get that

in other spaces but like on the bike it's incredibly humbling when you're three four hours into a ride and you're just like it's you

you meet yourself yeah you meet your and it's you and you it's incredible so yeah you're dead like, it's you. You meet yourself. Yeah, you meet your, and it's you and you. It's incredible. So yeah, you're dead on with that. Right.

Thanks, man. It's great talking to you. I appreciate it. It's really, it's beautiful and inspiring what you built. And if there's anything I can do to be of service to your mission, I hope that you will reach out to me. I just think it's really great. And I just wish you all the best. I'm excited. I think think it's really great. And I just wish you all the best. I'm excited.

I think it's just the beginning, but it's crazy because nothing has been laid out. We're just really learning. We're going to make mistakes. But at the end of the day, we're just trying our best to create something that is different and can change the future for someone,

some kid, someone somewhere. If we can accomplish that, man, it's a job well done. Cool. If you're digging on Justin, what's the best place to connect with you? Instagram? Yeah, probably Instagram. It's just Williams, J-U-S-W-I-L-L-I-A-M-Z instead of S. That's everything that we do.

All the events kind of get funneled through there. And are you still, you had like a GoFundMe up for the team, right? Yeah, I got to close that down. Yeah, it's pretty much, it's done its job. We started off trying to raise $50,000. I think we ended up raising like $120,000, which is fantastic because we get to put that toward um a couple of surprise things that are happening but also junior day camps we want to make sure that when kids get to

you know it's really important to me to have that relationship with alex and nico off of the bike um and i want to make sure that every time a kid meets up with another kid in the sport it isn't competition like they can like play cornhole together and build those relationships off the bike because ultimately that's kind of what kept me in the sport is having those friendships when I was younger. We get to put that toward that. We get to put that toward some other events. We get to put that toward our junior team. And like I said, there's a couple of surprise things that we're going to put that money into. So it's been kind of incredible to get that support from the community and understand that, you know, people feel the same way that we feel. Yeah, cool.

How's your brother? Yeah, he's miserable. Making me, trying to make me miserable. No, he's good. You know, Corey was going to have a special year this year, man. Like it was going to be insane to watch. People have always put us into boxes. You're a criterium racer.

You're a sprinter. I think that was the worst thing that I've ever been told is that you're a sprinter. I'm not a sprinter. I'm a person that navigates finishes very well. And the same thing with Corey. He's not a sprinter. He's 140 pounds, 45 pounds. And, you know, he could do everything.

So they've always put him. I didn't realize he had like 40 pounds on him. Like 40 pounds. It's crazy. But he's just capable of so much. And I think he would have like blown people away this year. Like in road racing in criterium racing and everything um and like I said people continuously try to put us in this box so it would have been like a rude awakening for some people where when he stepped out or he was like

left or he was there at the end of like a hard day or on a climb so that'll have to wait until next year but he's he's he's hungry man's hungry, man. So 2021 is going to be his breakout year. If you thought, if you thought last year was impressive, man, it's 2021 is going to be crazy. All right, cool. Well, come back and talk to me again sometime, man. Actually with Knox here, I was like, I'm, I'm sitting here thinking like, I want to hear a podcast between the two of you guys. That would be a conversation I'd like to hear.

I'm fanning out because it was wild. Cycling was my first passion. That's awesome. You talk about crash. Then I was doing the math and I was like, oh, the year he was born, I crashed every day. What you're talking about is so crazy. I'm stoked that I got to sit in on it and just see what the best of the best is doing right now and just revisit some old memories. And I wish you well on the journey, man.

I like moved to Crunch Run District, just a small part. Oh, sick. Just to kind of see if you was around the way riding. Yeah, sick. I kept you riding by your own. Yeah, cool, cool, cool. All right. To be continued.

Thanks. Peace. Yeah, dope. What do you think? I thought that was a very solid podcast. Good one. Next up is a round table with Justin and Knox together. I love those guys.

I really do want to hear a conversation between the two of them. In the meantime, do me a solid and give Justin a follow on the socials at justwilliamz, that's J-U-S William Z on Instagram and Twitter. Let him know how this one landed for you. Also be sure to pick up my new book, Voicing Change, Shipping Globally. I'll even sign it, available only at richroll.com slash VC. And if you're looking to dial up your plate, also check out the Plant Power Meal Planner.

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was created by Blake Curtis. Graphics by Jessica Miranda. Portraits by David Greenberg. Sponsored relationships are managed by DK David Kahn. And theme music, as always, by Tyler Trapper and Hari, my boys. Appreciate the love, you guys. Thanks for taking this journey with me. And I will see you back here soon with another episode.

As always, you can count on it. Set your clock to it. Until then, peace, plants, ride your bike. Namaste. Thank you.